The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 078: Fishing for a Living

Episode Date: August 21, 2017

Steven Rinella talks with writer, podcaster, angler, and conservationist April Vokey, along with Matt Elliott of Benchmade Knife Company, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew.Subjects Discussed: Sparkly bass boats; killin' smallmouth; well-fed, thick, fat, football bass; dealing with fuck-wits; April's introduction to the outdoors; credibility in social media; the only purpose of dating is to suss out the craziness; creeper catwalks at Sportsman's Warehouse; marlin on the fly; flippin' lillypads with a jig and chuckin' and duckin'; 100k or a trophy?; how to get out of small talk; bowhunting is the only reality; elitism in fly fishing and bass fishin' rednecks...it's just how it's marketed; Steve can smell hunters and fisherman a mile away; professionalizing your passion; yoga pants selfies: the female path to success in the hunting industry?; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. Welcome to the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We put the Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. April Vokey, why?

So you kind of like, don't you? You're not even like, you never were an American. No. That's one problem with you. But now you're not even like, you're not even Canadian now? No, I'm totally Canadian. Where'd you get that from? But you, what's going on with Australia?

All right. I lived half the year in Canada and half the year in Australia. I fell in love with an Australian bloke. Yeah. Yeah. Now, do people know what you got going on? Which part of it? You mean this enormous belly I'm rocking right now?

Yeah. That big old. Yeah, they know. They know. So you got wedlocked? Let's just be honest. I just ate so much Mexican food before I got here. It's crazy.

No, no. Yeah, I'm pregnant. I got married and pregnant. How did all that play out? Where were you when you met the Australian? Okay, we're going to start there. I was on a fishing trip in Norway. And just doing my usual thing I travel the world I fish

and I walked outside of the farmhouse and there was this handsome big Aussie man with bright blue eyes and that was that and he was a tourist too no he goes there every year to fish well yeah sure he's a tourist what were you guys fishing for? Atlantic salmon

you ever fish small mouth bass? of course I have how about large mouth bass? yes of course I have yeah yeah i have a largemouth bass yes of course i have you know what i don't care i bet you haven't caught as many as matt elliott as he laughs well looking at his bass boat i don't know if many people have it's pretty fancy so along with april volkey uh matt elliott's here matt elliott um how many i just want to touch on one thing real quick yeah how many bass have you caught in your life? 923,462.

You are not serious right now. You do not count them. Oh my God, I was going to walk out. Okay. I have no idea. But I've never caught one on a fly rod. Oh, seriously? I love fly fishing.

Have you ever seen a dude... Now, Matt has a genuine bass boat. Well, it doesn't have sparkles. I don't know how... Well, it doesn't have sparkles. I don't know how it does. It's mega sparkles. What? No way. The first thing my daughter noticed was that boat has sparkles.

How did I miss that coming in? The whole gel coat, every color is sparkles. Oh, my God. I totally missed that. Right after Matt showed me where the OSHA handles are, he perceived it. The retractable OSHA handles? Yeah. He showed me how fast.

I don't know. How fast did we go? We went like 45. Okay. It goes 80. That's fast enough to make you hang on to those handles. It was so rough. I can't believe how many boats there are in Lake Washington.

Oh, yeah. Like yesterday we were out. It wasn't even close to today. But wait, wait, wait. It's just a line of boats. Back to sparkles. Yeah. Why does a boat have to? Why do bass guys? Why are they so flashy a line of boats. Back to sparkles. Yeah. Why does a boat have to,

why do bass guys, why are they so flashy? Is that what you're trying to say? Yeah, why? What is up with that? I don't understand. Because you're not

a flashy guy. I have no idea. I cannot answer the sparkles question. But you have sparkles on your boat. I do. Did you put them there?

No, he bought it secondhand. Oh, okay. All right. He bought it from a, see, Matt is a now and then professional angler. Okay. Is that fair to say? Is that what you call it?

I'd like to tell my wife that. I don't want to put it that way. I don't want to put it that way. You fish bass tournaments. Yes. But not as your main occupation. No, and spend tens, including the boat and all the gear and everything,

thousands and thousands of dollars, and every once in a while we win like $120. So you're still running at it. You're still at a deficit. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. And so I had never gone real bass fishing. I mean, I've caught a lot of bass, but I've never gone out.

By real bass fishing, I mean out in a bass boat where no one is even thinking about trying live bait and catching bass and letting them go. Yeah. And I did that yesterday. Did you like it? I did like it.

I liked it because I was learning a lot. But Matt, so Matt's done this, caught I don't know how many bass, and the guy had never eaten a bass. No. Until tonight. Yeah. Oh, cool.

You kept one. Yeah. We overkilled yesterday. We kept four. Kept three dinkers and one good one that had a hook in its eye. I got some blood on the sparkles, and then we just started killing. Yeah. Savage.

What did you think of your small mouth sandwich it was really good it was good it tastes like a lake fish yeah are they bony no no no because steve has a trick to get the pin bones out where he cuts a little v notch in it and just pulls on it it's like pulling a zipper they come right out really yeah i learned it from my fishing mentor john gary huh the late john gary yeah uh you no remorse no i i had some remorse i think i was telling you so i actually did a little guiding for salmon a long time ago killed them and i have no and we fished him every i have no problem just killing salmon cutting gills and whacking him on the head and yesterday watching this small mouth on the top of the pile of perch in the cooler, breathing gills in the air with no water, I was feeling kind of bad.

Which is very strange. Why don't you bleed them out, though? You don't need to. Those fish, yeah, you don't need to bleed those fish out. Some dude in Japan would probably disagree with you. There's always some dude somewhere who will disagree. Yeah, that's right. Some dude somewhere eats something that we would say you don't eat. Some dude somewhere would disagree with you. There's always some dude somewhere who will disagree with you. Yeah, that's right. Some dude somewhere eats something

that we would say you don't eat. Some dude somewhere would disagree with you. Ask somebody anywhere if you can eat carp and just watch the world explode. Everybody has an opinion. And then, Heidi, harvest them. Anyway, so yeah, so you felt weird. But I'm over it. I think I just needed to get over it. I've spent my whole life trying to save

every bass I catch 15 minutes at a time, like sometimes trying to pry a hook out. Oh, he's like a surgeon getting his hook out of there. Oh, you don't pinch your barbs? No. No, but wait, so our bass kind of like... He doesn't care about it that much.

I just threw a punch in your gut. I apologize. But are bass like rainbow trout, if there's too many in a lake, they start to get kind of small? Yes. Okay. Well, they do. You definitely can run into like a kind of a tragedy, the common situation where it gets overpopulated.

So you're doing a favor to the fishery. It's important for people to eat them. I just never have. I've spent all this time trying to save them. So you're looking at them, right? But you're trying to save them so you can catch them again. Yes. That's it.

Yeah. Because it's not like you're trying to save the world by saving bass. No. You want him to be there in case you want to come and catch him it. Yeah. Because it's not like you're trying to save the world by saving bass. No. You want him to be there in case you want to come and catch him again. Yeah. Especially if they want to. Or another dude like you. Right.

Are they indigenous? No. Or have they been introduced? They've been introduced. Okay. So the Columbia River, it's not a non-native species, but they've been in the river for 100 years. Okay.

But yeah, they're not. No. A point he likes to raise because now they're trying to wage war on smallmouth as one of many little things that they think might help salmon because they're trying to divert the attention away from bonneville power who likes to hold the water back so there's no flow so none of the smolt can escape the predators gotcha so they scapegoat everything i'm on the record on that. Yeah. So he's a bass.

He's like a bass. Not even a preserve. He's a bass. He's a guy that likes to see more bass in the world. Big ones. Big bass he can catch. Okay, got it. Well-fed, thick, fat, football bass.

Yes. So, April, do you still guide here? No. When you say here, do you mean in the States? Well, in the Western Hemisphere. In the industry? Yeah, no. I started guiding when I was 21, and I always said I would only guide 10 years.

And I did my 10th year, and after that, I was out. How did you know you were only going to guide 10 years? Because if you don't put a cap on it, you'll end up being a 60-year-old guide. Is that bad? Yeah. Honestly, I don't know very many happy 60-year-old guides. I mean, they might say they are. There may be a few, but it's rare. So I just always knew I'd do 10 years. And it got to

the point where after a year eight... So when was the 10th year? So I stopped guiding three years ago. Oh. Yeah. So I still have a guiding operation. You can still book guided trips for me. I'm just not going to be a guide. Even if they beg and plead? It's not that. I mean, you can still take Yeah, so I still have a guiding operation. You can still book guided trips for me. I'm just not going to be your guide. You don't say beg and plead. It's not that.

I mean, you can still take my classes. I still do a lot of teaching. But yeah, I can't. You're not out on the water with the client being like, cast over there,

cast over there. I want to fish. Why are you hanging up on the brink all the time? Totally. And 10 hours. I mean, 10 hours a day, you're sitting there

being like, I could be doing so many other things right now or doing another business or hunting or fishing or I don't know. It got to the point where I was just ready to have some me time for sure. How old were you and what was

the year that you started doing it? Guiding? So I would have been 21. I'm 34 now. And that was guide and steelhead in British Columbia. Not really. So I actually was a sturgeon guide on the Fraser. So I ran a 21 foot North River on the Fraser. I ran a 21-foot North River on the Fraser River with a different outfitter. Oh, not fly poling.

No, shit no. I learned on conventional gear. I was fly fishing. Really? Yeah, hell yeah. I think that if you really want to be... You kind of became a known person for catching steelhead on a fly. I've been fishing a spoon all week on my property up north trying to get a chinook for the smoker. I've been fishing a spoon all week on my property up north trying to get a Chinook for the smoker. Oh yeah, no, I fish gear 100%

because I still, I do believe that if you really want to understand a fish behavior or a species behavior, you have to fish conventionally. You've got to put a treble hook into his lip.

Well, not necessarily. Relax or he'll believe Steve. You need to be able to fish like a single hook, a barbless hook in BC, right? But yeah, no, so I guided for sturgeon and Pacific salmon

on the Fraser for someone else. Catching sturgeon how? With bait. Yeah, so I'd go out first thing in the morning, depending on the time of year, if it's like the spring we're fishing, you know, maybe you're fishing hooligans or maybe you're trapping ditch eels in the ditch and hay bales or whatever it is, right? But in the summertime, you're going out in the fall, you're going around first thing in the morning, you're looking for seagulls in the water because they're usually on top of a big floating dead salmon. And then you go around in the morning and you gaff them, throw them in the bow, let them marinate in the sun or on the bow of your boat, let them marinate in the sun. Dead salmon.

Yeah, and that's called stink bait. But I was a horrible, awful sturgeon guide. Horrible. Tragic. By what measure? You didn't catch sturgeon? No, no. We caught sturgeon.

Any monkey can catch sturgeon. But I'm proud of the work I did. I'm just proud of the tagging program. We did a bunch of work. We gave back for sure. I wasn't great at figuring out the drop-offs and the boat. I always seemed to anchor my boat in the way of a tugboat. I don't know. I just wasn't really my shtick. I just wasn't patient my shtick.

I just wasn't patient enough dealing with a lot of the fuckwits out there. They're drinking vodka. Can I say that on your show? Yeah, I think so. Sorry. No, it's all right. No, totally. I didn't really catch what it was.

They were fuck what? Oh, fuckwit. A fuckwit. We say that in Australia. Oh, so you picked up some Australian lingo. Yeah, because they're fuckwit. But yeah, they're drinking on the boat and it got to the point where I was like, look, I'm not a great sturgeon guide.

I'm going to focus more on winter steelhead trips. But my current employer, who was honestly also a fuckwit, he couldn't give me the trips I needed. So I broke off in 2007, so 10 years ago, and I started my own company. Yeah, and that's kind of how it went. But did I gather, from what we were talking before, did I gather that your mom and dad weren't fishermen? No, no, not at all. What was the, you know, like, why were you like,

when in your life were you like, hey, you know, I'm going to try to catch a fish? Yeah, well, I mean, three, four. Oh, so you just had it. Yeah, but, you know, I was more into the it. Yeah, but I was more into the water. I was always more about the outdoors in general. My parents were totally opposed to hunting. Still are.

My dad will not speak to me about it. He'll leave the room disgusted by it. It is not open for discussion. Yeah. But the fishing, they were able to get their heads wrapped around. And so they explained, you know, dad would take me, because he was from Newfoundland, we'd go and we'd troll in the lakes for trout. We'd use worms and stuff. We didn't catch that many, but we went out. And then it would have been when I was about seven, I saw a big dead Pacific

or like a Chinook salmon. And it wasn't all rotted out and gross and gray and black yet. He was still pretty silver and he'd obviously bumped its head or whatever it was and my parents explained that that huge fish had to go from you know they had to get through a river that was only maybe 30 feet wide and so at seven years old i'm going but it's only 30 feet wide surely i can catch that fish and that was when i got it i got him neck down right where uh-huh and it was never the same after that so i had an allowance the fishing shop was next door to the mall my friends and i went to the mall they spent their money on that i spent my money. The fishing shop was next door to the mall. My friends and I went to the mall. They spent their money on that. I spent my money in the fishing shop.

I stocked my plain old tackle box and just counted down to get to be 16 and got my driver's license and skipped school and went fishing every day. And as long, well, not every day, but for the most part, four days a week. And the deal was if I brought home stray days, nobody cared. And that went on from 16 to today. And here we are. How did it ever occur to you that you'd make a living fishing? Did you run into fishing guides? No, thankfully. Because if I had, maybe I wouldn't have gone down

this route. I knew that guiding for fish was definitely an option. I mean, I knew that guiding for fish was definitely an option. I'll try to give you the quick version of it. So when I was 18, I'd seen some fly fishers, and at this point I knew that's what I wanted to do for a living because I wanted to be able to go fishing every day, basically.

You still need to eat, right? You need to pay your bills and stuff. And so from there, I just was like, well, how am I going to do this? And was the obviously the first thing that came to mind but there's other ways to make money in the fishing industry so i wrote out a list of all the pots to put my fingers in and then i put together a plan to make it work and what else was on the list yeah so at the time there was i was actually a sales rep once for a real company that didn't work very long it didn't go very well but then merchandise and then television, writing, tying custom flies, teaching, guiding, obviously, and then commissionable trips. And then that was, this is all pre social media. Social media did not

exist at this time. So if I, if I had known that I would have factored in all the other aspects of influencing and, you know, sponsors and stuff, but at the have factored in all the other aspects of influencing and sponsors and stuff. But at the time, that was not on the table. So it was pretty much just the basic ways of getting by in the fishing industry. Like you just knew you were going to fish. Yeah, well, I had to make it work. And then what happened was I was a cocktail server at night at the casino. So now, fast forward.

So basically, I'm a gear fisherman. I'm 16, 17. I meet this guy when I'm 17. He turns into my best fishing buddy. He's in his 60s. He was running into me. He's like, girl, it's dangerous out there. We should fish.

I thought it was weird and creepy. My parents come out with me one day. He was maybe a little pervy. For sure. He had to have. I thought. Anyway, he wasn't. He wasn't.

Turned out he wasn't. No. Turned out he was like my second dad. So my parents came and met him. His name was Dave Puffer. I love you, Dave. You're the shit. So my parents came and met him. His name was Dave Puffer. I love you, Dave. You're the shit. So he ends up taking me fishing.

And for my 18th birthday, he and all the old guys gave me my first ever fly rod and a bunch of VHS tapes and a bunch of jig tying material. So now I'm paving them. I'm getting ready to start this fly fishing thing. Can I back you up a minute? Yeah, yeah. Go for it. Just a couple things i notice that people that fly fish refer to say gear but guys don't say gear like what what what what

comes to mind when you hear the word gear any sort of conventional fishing so like spin casting um gear yeah center pins but only like fly fishermen use the term gear to talk about other kinds of ways of catching fish. Well, yes and no. A gear fisherman will call it... Do you call yourself a spin fisherman? No. What do you call yourself? Don't call yourself a gear fisherman. Bass fishing. And the way I differentiate

the two, you said it is fly fishing and conventional fishing. I don't say gear fishing. But people were fly fishing before spinning re. I don't say gear fishing. People were fly fishing before spinning reels came out. That's a good point. Why is it conventional? Fly fishing is conventional.

Spinning rods are like gear. Fly fishing is like gear. It's a good point. It helps them sell those $900 fly rods. That's one question. Then you got a tough skin growing up where you grew up. Yeah, social media. That one being helpful is social media.

Yeah. I don't understand. What do you mean that you had a hard time with social media? I thought you kind of built your career on social media. Well, that depends on who you ask. Just because somebody may have learned about me on social media doesn't mean I built my career on social media. I built my career on guiding,

and the social media followed as a way of marketing. So obviously it was able to work. It was the right time that it worked. But there's just a lot of hate because there weren't a lot of people doing it at that time. So people were hateful that you were using social media or people were hateful that you were what like people that weren't weren't mad at everybody who used social media well there weren't that many people trying to sell themselves on faith this is just

facebook so people were saying like anything else vain yeah totally shameless self-promoter yeah who does she think she is shameless self-promoter. Yeah. Who does she think she is? Shameless self-promoter. And you didn't like that? No, because I was just trying to, I was using it as a marketing means. Like it was a new way of marketing. If I were to publish all my stuff in a magazine, it was no big deal. If I were to go ahead and put it on television, it was no big deal. If I were to go to the clubs and speak, no big deal.

Teaching, whatever. But for some reason, Facebook, this big unknown, just developed a lot of hatred. And at the same time, the forums are coming, right? So now you got them hand in hand. And they were just straight up unkind. It's because innovation scares people.

It scares everybody. And this is before Instagram, before everybody in the world was a famous outdoors person. Hashtag in the show. That's back when every other article in a business magazine was like, if your company's spending money on a social media manager, you're an idiot. Now companies have three or four of them.

It was just different. Remember the first year of Facebook. It was just the first year. What were you trying to get out of it? If all of a sudden you're full balls into social media, was it like you were thinking, I gonna do this to book clients totally i'm gonna do this to like create some new thing and bring a level of renown to myself no i just wanted to bring clients so

i was the guiding company but it became something must have become something more than that after that because you don't guide anymore but you still do it well it has for all of us look what social media has become but we'll get there but yeah but at the time it was that if i had a guiding operation and i was the only guide you had to know who i was if you were going to be guided by me and so i used magazines as well and speaking in clubs and teaching and doing all the other things that we've always done and social media did it work yeah of course it did of course it was like a lot of applause and success, but it was tempered by some hate. For sure. I think it was scary.

It was confusing for people too because I would waitress. Remember I told you I cocktailed all night? So I would serve at night and I would waitress from 8.30 p.m. to 4.30 in the morning or from 10 o'clock p.m. to 6 a.m. And then I'd go straight to the river after cocktailing. So I'd have my hair done and my hair done and makeup did. Because I was a sturgeon guide and because I still fish bait sometimes, I had bait under my nails. So the cocktail rules, you have to have nice hands

if you're handling chips in the casino. So the only way to get around it was I had to put nails on. So I just had an image that was confusing to people. They just couldn't wrap their head around it. Like you were like sexualizing fishing. I mean, I would have been sexualizing fishing if I was running around with my tits hanging out. It wasn't like that. I mean, I just looked in a way.

I had makeup on. I had a look that was not the norm and people didn't like it. Like it was done up. For sure. It looked like I would have spent all night putting makeup on. But the reality is I didn't want to go home to take it off. But let's say you didn't work the night before. Yeah.

Would you then go out? Would you then get done up or not get done up? No, I'd just go to the river. Yeah. But people would see that and they would be like, this is like this new selling of something in a way. Like I want to sell it in the way I'm comfortable with, which is me smoking a pipe

and having bourbon out of a tin cup and my old wool shirt on with my creel with my creel yeah it was a really frustrating time for me and they're pissed because you're a good looking girl and like a lot of dudes hate good looking girls

yeah I get it that's some sad shit to say, but it's kind of true. I know, but I get it. I judge. I can't help, but when I see a woman... They're like, I can't tell. I either want to have sex with her or I want to kill her. I hate her.

I think there's a lot of guys who are kind of both. I mean, there's like a thing that happens with dudes that's like that. Yeah, but they couldn't hear what I was saying, and that was a problem. It was all these companies that are now jumping on board, and everybody wants to have a piece of the pie. That's not meant to be a pun. I'm just saying, right? So they want to have a piece. So now suddenly your image is being used.

And if you don't even own a photograph, it's being sold without, you know, at the time, it's being sold without your permission. Your image is being used now in a way that you don't necessarily want it to be used. And so now you're in a situation where you're not being heard, but you're being seen, which is really hard for me because I have a lot to say. My podcast is the best thing I ever did because now suddenly you can't see me. You have to hear me. And I think I've got some half decent things to say.

That's interesting. Yeah. So what you'll notice, and this is going to sound pretty silly, but I've actually, so remember I told you I got it 10 years and I've taken a step back. Yeah. My big step back, I'm done with television. I'm done with all that stuff. My big step back, I'm done with television. I'm done with all that stuff. My big step back is I'm slowly removing my face.

That's the whole point of my entire career and always has been, the whole plan. Look, excuse me. So some girls want the attention. When you're a cocktail server and you're from Surrey, you get all the attention you need. You're pumping gas, you got attention. You're walking down the street, you get attention. You go into Safeway, you get attention. I don't want the attention.

I never wanted the attention. You go into Safeway, you get attention. I don't want the attention. I never wanted the attention. You get it anyway as a chick. So when it started coming into my career, I mean, sure, yeah, maybe it helped my career. Maybe it didn't. I don't know. It wasn't my main focus. But now it's exhausting. It's just exhausting.

I don't want any of it. So I'm removing my image from the industry and putting my voice and my words out there. And that, for me, has been the most rewarding thing I've ever done. Like my social, you'll notice it's not narcissistic. There's not a bunch of fucking selfies and stuff. You know, it's like, it's the experience. It's maybe what I'm experiencing. Maybe my captions are

through my eyes. I'm definitely using the experience, my words, and my voice now to be heard rather than my image. and that's been a very very conscious effort for sure has getting married and now fixing to have a kid change that around yes it's the best thing i ever did a lot of girls get married and they're too afraid to you know tell people because they don't want to lose their following i went from people wasting yeah oh my god you have no idea how many women out there have got significant others. Because they're thinking like, once mugs know.

Oh, what's that? So like, once mugs know, the guys, once folks, fellas, know that I'm taken. Because they think guys care. They'll be like, well, I'm not going to follow her anymore because now I'm not going to be able to date her. I see it all the time. It's hilarious to me. Really? That's how guys, you feel that there's evidence to suggest that guys think that way no no of course not i don't think guys know that the girls think

that way yeah that's what i know girls think that way okay but i thought they're thinking that way because it's true they know i don't know i see their perception is yeah yeah yeah like i just want to make sure i'm getting this right. They think that if people know that I'm married, guys won't follow me because they all harbor this. Right. Or want to go on my trips or anything. And that does lead me down a path. So I will say this. Can I tell you a quick story about that? Yeah, go for it.

Years ago, I spent some time a significant amount of time in San Jose, California. I had a girlfriend that was doing a writing fellowship in San Jose, California. So I was girlfriend that was doing a writing fellowship in San Jose, California. I was living in Montana but bouncing back and forth a fair bit. We got to be friendly with a sushi chef

and his cousin who was the waitress in the sushi restaurant. Just two of them worked there. It was a guy, the dishwasher in the back. We become social to the point where we're even going out to dinner together with the cousins. One day, it comes out.

There's a slip up, and it comes out that they're, in fact, boyfriend, girlfriend. And we're shocked. And like, why? I don't really understand. I was afraid he wouldn't want to come in anymore. Yeah, see? That's what I'm talking about. If you knew that the waitress was my girlfriend and that she was taken, what would bring you

in? See, that's crazy to me. Yeah. How much faith do you have in your product? To the point where we became friends before he would tell me. But that's my point. How much faith or faith do you not have in your product if that's what you're relying on?

I'm not that girl. I met Charles and the second I met him, I knew I was going to marry him. I put it up on my website. Like, guys, gals, I found the love of my life. End of story. It doesn't matter. And you know why it was the best thing that ever happened to me? My emails went from a bunch of people wasting my time to suddenly people who

legitimately, I've now suddenly got a mature audience who really wants to book me for my trips, and they want to use me. Even though you're not going to be on the trip. No, yeah, of course not. And that was the biggest eye-opener for me. But yeah, getting married is one of the best things that I ever did. And I was also very, you know, I was very, very aware of making it clear to the world that I was taking because I don't think it should make a difference.

If it makes a difference, I don't want your business anyway. So it pulled some of the, like, it pulled some of the... Sex isn't the right word, but it pulled some of the sexual tension out of the air. It did for me with bookings, for sure. What it did do. Because they were like, hey, I'm going to go on a trip with this gal. Maybe she'll really like me. Well, what it did with my host of trips, yeah, that changed everything.

Did it really? Yeah, but I've always had a hard time selling host of trips. And honestly, I hate them. You make no money off them. You end up babysitting. It's a waste of time. But when I did do the occasional hosted trip, all my clients were divorced men. Because married men were not allowed to go with me.

Oh, I got you. And women never wanted to spend more than X amount of dollars. And the couples market, as much as everyone would like to think that couples markets like the saving grace, it's just not there. Can you explain for people what you mean by a hosted trip? Yeah, so there's this thing. It's actually really cute. I get a lot of people email me and they'll be like, I want to follow in your steps. I want to make money off of social media and hosted trips.

And I have to take a step back and be like, you realize that that's not how I make my living, right? Not even a little bit. So the thing is, is with the host of trips, you go on a trip and you make, if you don't upcharge, you make 15% commission on the trip, right? But then you still have to pay for your flight. Maybe the company pays your flight out. So now you're making X amount of dollars per person. So it's someone saying, we're going to, there's a trip. Yeah.

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if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. So I get eight people to come with me. Oh, okay. So you go out and market. You go out to market to people. Yeah.

Now, I only did maybe one or two of those a year because I hate them. And it might be like, hey, we're going fishing trout in Argentina. Yeah. There's a lodge. Yeah. You get people all excited to come and fish with you. We're doing the guiding, but you're bringing the clients down. Yeah.

And we'll give you a cut, a sales commission. Exactly right. That's a hosted trip. That's a hosted trip. I didn't even know that. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people think that you can make good money that way. I don't know.

It's just not my thing. Yeah, most guys probably just do it to get to exotic locations. That's right. There are other ways to do it, or you can just actually make your money doing other stuff and pay to go on a trip. So I don't know. The hosted trip thing for me was kind of over. And then after I got married, it was definitely over.

Nobody wanted to go. Not nobody. I mean, I had people, but all the divorced men were suddenly out, which made my life way easier because I didn't have to deal with any of that questioning what people's true incentives were. So all in all, if you look at the whole thing. Steve, you're getting me all riled up. No, if you look at all the aspects of your career.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's just, I'm going to take a stab here. There's like six things you'd like six money generating things that you do. I mean, it's added on since then with the evolution of the world we have today,

but yeah, sure. Say there's six pots to put your fingers in. Okay. Do you feel that your fingers have gotten deeper into those pots thanks to being a woman or in spite of being a woman oh that's a really good question it depends on the pot um that's a really good question the reason i ask is because I would think this, and I would think that in the outdoor world, there is a certain level of excitement about a woman in the outdoor world. Because traditionally, it's this male-dominated thing.

So there's a bit of excitement and quite a bit of hatred and envy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, are you talking about just a regular woman? Are you talking about a talented woman? Cause it's very different. I'm just talking about the fact that you have the participation rates.

Like, okay, let's take hunting for instance. I know this number. I don't know in fishing and hunting. There's a 10% participation rate. Okay. So if you look at the i think that if you

looked at um people making their living in the hunting industry i would have to guess that people making a living in the hunting industry probably women are probably man this is really difficult to say. No, I'm going to say it for you. Well, let me finish. Let me,

because I haven't fully said it. I think I know where you're going. I remember there was a point on primetime television and primetime drama that gays became overrepresented in primetime drama, where the percentage of gays portrayed in primetime drama was higher than the percentage of gays in the american population we hit an over rep not that this is a i'm not presenting this as a negative just and i someone came up with this idea that we hit like an over representation right okay now if you were to look are women like are women over represented yeah it's catering the hunting

and fishing thing or do they come in at 10% of hunting people in the, you know? Yeah, look, it's catering to the minority is what it is. And so I feel, and I have watched a little bit of this hunting thing too go down. I don't have numbers for either industry. But yeah, I think there's definitely, and I think the numbers are growing. I mean, let's just talk fishing specifically because that I can speak on for sure. The numbers have absolutely grown for sure.

But there's definitely an over, I think there's a little too much catering. I think that there's a lot of women hashtag, and guys, let's just keep it gender neutral. People who think that because they have a certain amount of people following their social media that they can throw out a hashtag and suddenly now they're worthy of a sponsor.

That really bothers me. I've got a real problem with that. I don't understand what that means. Well, yeah, because do you even do your own social? Yeah. Oh, you do. How many times...

I like Instagram. I use Instagram. Yeah, I like it too. I gave up like... Well, I'm not going to talk about that. I like Instagram. Okay, that's fair. I know.

I like the crowd. I got it. I like the crowd. I got it. I like the crowd. Okay, so it's really frustrating for me, though, to see somebody who's been doing this for three months and their credibility is based on the amount of followers that they have. Does that make sense? Yeah. I have a real problem with that because maybe I'm old school, but I just remember when you

actually- Oh, you like credibility in something more than that. Yeah, like you had to be good. Like when I was... Now, I've only been in this industry for 15 years, but you still had to be good. You had to be good. And I still believe today you have to be good. And I get really shitty about it.

I mean, the hunting thing, I'm going to be totally honest with you. You know I'm new to hunting. It's been like if I got my first bow two, three years ago, right? Like pretty new. I've had people trying to sponsor me in hunting. No way. I am not credible. Everyone listening to this podcast

who sponsors Steve, don't sponsor me. I'm not there yet. I'm serious. I'll never make a living in hunting. They're saying, I'm not looking for expertise. I'm looking for social. Look at her engagement. I don't think it's cool. I don't think that it's right.

I don't think I'm worthy of it. I don't think you should be a fraud. I think you should keep it authentic. Matt, can you speak to all this? I have a couple of thoughts. I'm going to go with the first one. The first one was you were talking about an over-representation of gays or females

or whatever it is. I was thinking about that as almost like a slingshot. What it is is a response to suppression. Can I back up and say that Matt does marketing. Yeah. Oh, this will be great. I'm interested. Matt does marketing for a large, successful knife company.

He can tell you what it's called. With a lot of credibility and a very authentic brand, Benchmade Knife Company. I was thinking about that almost like a slingshot. The farther you pull it back once you release it, the more reaction. It's almost like one of Newton's laws. You're just going to end up with a greater response

to it because it's been suppressed for so long that it's going to take more momentum to overcome. You're saying pulling back means the holding back of the female voice in the outdoor world. Right. So it becomes more and more unique the more it's suppressed. Builds up kinetic energy, yeah.

And then it becomes more marketable because it's more unique, right? And that, I mean, I guess that's the way I would look at that. But it's not fair. I just feel like... Wait, wait, wait. So then the other thought I had was that people are good. It depends. Giannis and I were talking about this earlier.

We were talking about camera guys versus hunters and how it's better to take a camera guy and train him to be a hunter than to take a hunter and train him to be a camera guy. Giannis told you that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's easier. I got a real problem with that. So, no.

He'll derail you. Just ignore him. Keep going. Keep going. So, the reason I'm saying that is because you said that you have a problem with people trying to sponsor you for hunting. But maybe they're seeing in you an opportunity for someone that's a really good host. And in that.

And I've had them say that. Right. And that's cool. Not all hunters make good that and i've had them say that right and that's cool not all hunters but don't make good hosts but don't you think george foreman is really really really good at making uh fat-free grills where do you want to draw the line on this conversation i mean but look at any person like any spokesman did oj simpson was he like i'll tell you one thing i know about it's renting cars yeah but yeah fair. But you had a really good point there. I mean, what do you want me for?

What do you want me for? Do you want me because I'm a good host? Do you want me because of my conservation efforts? Or do you want me because you think that my social media following is going to drive you to traffic? The latter. Yes, because they're paying for it.

Ultimately, the people that are coming to you want you to be able to provide for them, return on their investment. That's right. And I did it with fishing, and I will not do it with hunting. And it's totally okay to take that stand, right? It's just that not all, there are so many killer, so many killers. I forget who that

guy was that said those deer hunters are just killers. Pat Durkin. Pat Durkin. There are so many guys who are just killers, right? But that does not mean that they would make good personalities, good television show hosts, any of that. And, like, I'm going off on a tangent here, but the coach of the New England Patriots, Bill Belichick, he has always said that it's easier to train football skills

than it is football intelligence. So he looks for players with football intelligence, and then he trains them up on the game he wants them to play. Yeah, but there's just so many talented hunters and legit female and male hunters and legit female and male fly fishers, and I just would like to see a little more of that credibility go to them, even if it means they have half the amount of following.

I just would like to see the game played a little more fair. You honestly feel that? I honestly believe that. That's magnanimous if you do. Well, that's where I'm at. You'll never see me game played a little more fair. You honestly feel that? I honestly believe that. That's magnanimous if you do. Well, that's where I'm at. You'll never see me sponsored by a company in hunting. Never. I give my word.

Someone might send me something free and I'll wear it, but you're not going to be seeing me tag it all over the place and you're not going to be seeing some sort of signed, dealed relationship. You're just going to flat-ass turn it down. Yep, because I've done it in fishing. What if they come to you and say this? Oh, hit me with it

let's hear it okay better be good better be good ready uh april i know you're not a i'm coming at you i'm the voice right okay i'm the guy there's only one angle you could go on this to get me let's hear it i know that you're entering this journey okay great start yep um and i think that there's a lot of young women in this country who'd like to take this journey with you. And who better to walk along side by side in this journey of discovery? Sure. Then they better let me be so unbelievably honest to the audience

that I'm green as green gets. And I don't know if I want to be that vulnerable in the public eye, honestly. But yeah. Did you like my pitch? I thought it was good. The only other to be that vulnerable in the public eye, honestly. But yeah. Did you like my pitch? I thought it was good. The only other pitch that hit me in the heart once that was pretty good was somebody said to me, we're not seeing a lot of women in the sport with the conservation mindset that you have.

It's refreshing to see it. We like to see that it is starting to happen with you in hunting. We'd like to support you. And I said, that's cool. You can send me stuff. I cannot have some sort of announced relationship with you. And they said, that's totally understandable. Gotcha.

Matt, give her a pitch. Work up a pitch. I just want to hear someone get pitched. My integrity, it's just there's no amount of money on it. Do I pitch? Do I pitch? Look at him. Look how sweet he is.

He probably doesn't pitch. He gets pitched. No, that's true. I do end up getting pitched more than I pitch. You ever pitch? Look at him. Look how sweet he is. He probably doesn't pitch. He gets pitched. No, that's true. I do end up getting pitched more than I pitch. You ever pitch? No, yeah. I'll come up with ideas. He doesn't pitch.

On the fly. So I don't necessarily know that I would have a pitch for April 1st Day. But I really do think actually what you said would have some merit in that there is something to be said about female hunter retention. Not necessarily just recruitment, but retention. I was at, every year at SHOT Show they do this. The company that does SHOT Show is the Shooting Sports Foundation, and they have this research breakfast. And I heard at that research breakfast that although,

it's the big thing to say is that females are the fastest growing new demographic entering the hunting market, but what they don't tell you is that they're also the fastest leaving. So they're not being retained. So they're buying a license. Right, because all they're measuring is license buying Yeah. So they're not being rotated. So they're buying a license.

Right, because all they're measuring is license buying. So what they're not telling you is that they enter and they get no support, no help. The only person they have to go with is maybe their boyfriend or someone else that kind of got them into it, and then they just give up on it. And having someone like yourself being able to help to drive that message, provide a community for people to follow and come along with and offer support could really give someone a base to have confidence in themselves as a female hunter.

But it's got to be honest. It's got to be honest. Since I got married. Because I made, I coerced a boatload of girlfriends into buying hunting tags. They never went back. Didn't you, was it you? Are you telling me that you,

or is that, maybe that was Brody. I had a girl from one time that had never hunted at all. Didn't somebody kill a sheep? What were you just talking about? She'd never hunted before. And then in the spring, got a black bear,

turned around and got a mountain goat and a bighorn. Yeah. She is talented. And you. Was the bighorn you? Yeah, of course it was. No, no.

Then didn't hunt anymore oh no you're serious oh you didn't just put it on her tag i said she actually we're gonna i said you're gonna do this get your hunter safety we're gonna put you in for all these permits and tags and whatnot we're gonna tear it up yeah but were you putting her kill on your tag no she actually went hunting no i'm saying no she spring season she killed a bear yeah and then she left. No, in fall season, she killed a mountain goat with a bighorn. Yeah, but then after all, after that year, she was gone. Then stopped going out, and it was just like, she was like, yeah, that was fun, and just didn't feel like, just didn't keep hunting. I wonder why it didn't stick.

So she just did it. She was hunting the same way, the same way that if she, let's say I went to do something with her. Let's say we went down. I used to have a girlfriend. We'd go down to this thing. We'd go down to these lectures by Jewish scholars about really old Jewish law. She'd like to do that. I went along with her. We broke up.

I didn't keep going to that shit. Got it, yeah. It was something she wanted to go do. Yeah, yeah. My wife, now and then on our date night, I go with my wife to do yoga in a super hot room. Good for you. I've done that six times.

Now, if God forbid something were to happen to my wife, I would not go down and do yoga in a super hot room. Fair enough. But I do it because she likes to go do that with me. Yeah, that's kind of nice. So I've had a lot of, not a lot, but I had girlfriends over the years, a number added up over time, who I would be like, dude, we're going. Fill this shit out.

Get this thing. Let's go. If it wasn't for Lacey, I would never watch another episode of The Bachelor ever again. And then if some, if heaven forbid, he's done. That'd be it. No more Bachelorette. No more Bachelor. I don't even know what you guys are talking about right now.

Television program. Well, Bachelors. Okay, here's another thing. I want to lay off you on this shit for a little while. No, it's fine. You totally derailed me, but I'm real. Let's hear it. In BC, you have to use a barbless hook.

Yeah. No matter what you're fishing for. Yeah. I think in lake fishing, you may. No, I'm going to say single barbless. Yeah. You have to use a barbless hook fishing for bass? I don't know.

I haven't actually done any bass fishing in BC. What I'm really getting at is this. Why don't bass guys, Matt, use barbless? Yeah, Matt. Why don't they? I'll tell you why. Because you guys don't really, really care about bass. Oh, you went down the road.

I'm going to sit back and eat my popcorn. Do you know what I mean? I feel like you guys, like, why not barbless? I think that every fisherman's motivation is ultimately somewhat selfish. Sure. Because if it wasn't, you'd just leave them alone. Right. You wouldn't fish.

Because it's not good. You'd become a snorkeler. I don't care if you're fishing barbless or whatever. It's a blood sport. Right. You are putting a hook in a fish's face, and if you didn't care, if you literally cared completely about their survival, then you just wouldn't do it.

But you will have a higher survival rate if you can get the hook out faster. And I will take that back. Only in the fact of what we were mentioning earlier, without retention, the actual population actually can end up in a worse position. But don't you think you could pop out the hook faster if it was barbless? Yes. I agree. I also think that bass are a much hardier fish species than a trout.

Hey, have you ever tried this before? Have you ever tried? I don't know if this is nonsense or not, but I have tried it once and it did seem to work on a big bass in, where was I? It was Michigan. Who's the Michigan person here? Me and Yanni.

Yeah. Yeah. So you ever heard that if it's gushing blood and you, yeah, I did it. It worked. You could see it start to clot. It coagulates. Bass fishermen will keep a can of

Sprite or a can of Coke in their boat and you just pour Coke down their throat. Totally serious. I don't know the first thing. I'm no fish doctor fish i'm no fish doctor but i got a feeling of what you're seeing is i think that maybe you're remedying a you're remedying a visual symptom maybe so maybe but it sure seems i will say so next to their chew tin and their and their, they keep a pop. Back to your question about caring for or not caring for bass.

Just two examples of this. I once had, when I was guiding, back when I was guiding, not for bass, for salmon and trout. I had a client. We'd caught a six-pound leopard bow, and he really wanted to hold it. And I told him no. I said, if you want to hold it, you can hold it over the side of the boat in the net. You can hold it over the side of the boat. Explain the fish because there's going to be people that don't know what you're talking about.

A leopard bow is a native rainbow trout in Alaska. They have these huge black spots. They're incredible. I've never even heard of it. They're amazing fish. Absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, they're incredible. And he caught leopard rainbow trout.

It's just like a super spotted rainbow trout. Because in the life aquatic, what's the shark they're after? Oh, the jaguar shark. That's what it was, yeah. So they're huge, voracious fish, but trout are notoriously, although they're voracious predators, are notoriously fragile. Delicate fish,

right? And so I told him, no, you cannot take any, he just continued to plead, and finally I said, okay, I'm going to hand you this fish. And you're guiding. Yes. I said, I'm going to hand you this fish. And you're guiding. Yes. I said, I'm going to hand you this fish. I had the boat pushed into the bank. I said, I'm going to hand you this fish.

I want you to hold on to it, and I'll take a picture with you. And I gave him the fish, and what do you think happened? He looked like a bar of soap. It went out of his hands and landed straight on its head in the boat. No. Done. I sat in the water for 30 minutes in the frigid water up to my arms trying to revive this fish. And it would do the thing where it would kind of kick, and then you'd let it go in and fall on its side.

And I'd do it again. And I will do the same thing with the bass. So it's not about me not caring or not caring for bass. I do really care about fish in general. That being said, I care about fish because I love fishing. And if my love for fishing makes me care about fish, does it really matter if I care about the fish because I care about the fish or because I love fishing?

Whatever it takes for me to care about the resource. I feel the same way about hunting and conservation in that if nobody cared about it, if hunters really care about those animals and if those animals didn't have people that wanted to engage with them, that appreciated them for what they were and that were involved in that, then they wouldn't be in the condition that they were in today and there wouldn't be financing behind it or any of that.

So I just, I don't know if it matters. But you're right. The reason I do, ultimately the reason I do care about fish is because I love fishing. It's not because I just love fish. That's my long-winded answer. Totally fair. But what you just said was totally on point about, like, people need to know about something for them

to actually care enough about it to protect it. The reason that we don't use barbless hooks, though, is because they're much easier to get into the boat. Because you catch more. Because you catch more. Because you catch more. And I think that comes from the tournament culture. Because there's guys fishing tournaments, mostly guys, but gals too, fishing tournaments.

And sometimes in these tournaments, especially at the high levels that people aspire to, those fish, the difference of ounces can mean the difference between a twenty thousand dollar check and a hundred and twenty five thousand dollar check yeah okay that's but that brings it to a whole different reason of fishing but that culture i think it sort of drives that now and bass also are not as fragile no not even you're gonna be able to release the bass and there's a good chance if you did that to a trout there's no way There's another big factor to consider is that bass would be, on the IUCN list,

they'd be species of least concern. I mean, there is no conservation concern whatsoever on largemouth and smallmouth bass. Typically, you see the opposite. Maybe in some region some watersheds i mean in a in a national sense they both those species are found way way way outside of their native ranges yes they're very hardy right it's like a coyote they're just everywhere yeah so you're removing the idea that you're going to go and mess up something. Right.

Some system. In terms of ecosystem. If anything, it's the opposite. Yeah. You find that places like the Columbia River, they've decided. Where they become exotic deleterious. And they even said at the hearing about that, we don't know if this is going to work. We don't even know if this is going to have an impact on salmon species at all, but whatever.

We're just going to do it because they're not native. Yeah, I don't even want to go down that road. You don't want to get me started on that? You don't,

where you're from, there's no like, April, you guys don't kill steelhead. No, well, we kill hatchery steelhead if we're unfortunate enough

to have a hatchery system in place. But where I live, so I live in northern BC on the Bulkley River, and it's illegal to retain wild steelhead. Thank God. Just flat out. I'd like to be able to retain wild steelhead. Why is it still legal to harass them and hook them? In a lot of places, it's not.

Oh, really? Yeah. In a lot of rivers. Those rivers are just closed. Thompson was my go-to spot. I mean, I cut my teeth in a lot of ways in the Thompson, but it shut down. And it got low enough where they can't even risk you killing one on accident. Not even by accident. No, no. So, yeah. I mean, and we all want to be able to retain steelhead.

We're not like a bunch of hippies here. Like, we want to retain steelhead. For what reason? To eat them. But there's just not enough of them out there, right? Like, it's a really fine line. It's a really sensitive subject. A lot of fisheries that are open to fish,

I won't fish because I don't feel like it's moral. I don't feel like it's right. You feel like they should get a reprieve. Yeah, I feel like the fishery should be shut down for sure. But BC's pretty, BC's not bad. BC's pretty good with their regulations, I feel.

So explain your guiding business that you're still involved in but don't guide. I guess technically I'd be a booking agent nowadays. Technically, yeah. I don't have staff. I don't have guides on salary or anything. I mean, I did for the first year or so. I tried to have guides just, you know, they'd be, I'd pay

them their day rate. I'd take my cut or whatever. It's just way easier. So what is it? I guess I don't understand. So them their day rate. I'd take my cut or whatever. It's just way easier. So what is it? I guess I don't understand. Yeah, so say my day rate for a walk-in wait was $600. So then what my other options were... That might be what a steelhead guide makes. Yeah, say for a walk-in wait. What's a bass guide make?

But we're talking not boats. I'm talking walk-in wait. $250 a person, $500 for the boat, but the boat only carries two. Oh, yeah. So it gets to be more expensive than that in BC with boats. So say I make my $600, right? You're saying like wade fishing,

a guide might make $600 in a day. But now what will happen is say I've got a guide, I've got to pay my guide $25 an hour for eight hours, so it's costing me $200. But I'm still bringing out $600, so now I'm pocketing my $400. So now I'm pocketing my 400 bucks, right? So now if you have three guides out working in a day, now you're taking your 400 per guide. So

now you've got 1200 bucks a day. So that works, but then you've got to be licensed. You've got to be insured. You've got to still be dealing with the emails of my flight and my this and it just was really time consuming. So now I'm at a stage where I'm still super involved in my bookings. Like you reach out to me and I'm going to get you set up, no question, with the fishery that... So you're like a travel agent. Kind of, sort of.

Yeah, I guess technically these days I probably am because I no longer do the invoicing. I no longer do the helping with the flights. But I'm there to help you through your entire trip. But I'm now working... Do you own the lodge? No, hell no. I would never do that to myself, ever.

That's a total money dump. But I work with the lodge and make sure that everybody's happy. So really, the client has 24-hour support between me and the lodge, whereas for a long time, it was just me, and it was just a lot of pressure because I travel, right? I'm always gone. So now it's me and the lodge, and it's just easier for me to say,

listen, guys, I'll just take a cut on the client. And then if they just keep coming back, I don't even need to know about it. I'm always here if they need me. But yeah, I guess technically nowadays I am a booking agent. Yeah. So some dude goes online. Yeah. And he's like, man, the thing I really want to do is go to BC and fish steelhead.

Yeah. And he types in BC steelhead fishing. And he's dicking around and pretty soon he sees what that would prompt him to call you. Well, a lot of people who are, my people who are calling me have heard of me and they're not finding me on Google anymore.

And they think you still guide. No, I think it's pretty clear nowadays that I'm no longer guiding. And what do they call you for? April, we understand that you are from BC, and we know that you're honest, and you'll tell us where we should go. And I stay true to that. So I get them set up. I got you.

Yeah. So they're using you to keep from getting screwed. And then they don't care if I take, because the commission I get doesn't come out of their pocket. There's no price difference for them. But they know I'm going to do my best to make sure that they're totally set up. And the lodge, I honestly mostly work with one lodge on the Skeena

now because they take such good care. I mean, I've never had an unhappy client leave this lodge. And they have no problem paying me my percent off the top because they're just happy to have this awesome clientele. So it really is a win-win for everybody. I understand it better now.

People starting off from ground zero and this awesome clientele. So it really is a win-win for everybody. I understand it better now. Yeah. And it's just nice because I'm... So people starting off from like ground zero and you've developed a reputation of putting them into a quality trip. And if you approve, put your stamp of approval on a thing, that's of value to them.

And the other thing you need to remember is I'm there, right? Like I'm in Northern BC, so I'm going to come by and be like, hey, Bob, how's it going? How's everything doing? And my best friend guides out at this lodge, and the guy who owns it is one of my good buddies.

They really are walking into a family environment. Something you need to realize is I guided five years on the Dean River, which is a really famous river in BC. I basically subcontracted out the lodge. It was a family environment. Like you came, when you came, you were guided by me, but you were coming because obviously the fishery is incredible, but it was myself, my brother-in-law, my sister, and a cook. Like it was really small, intimate operation. And I still take pride in that. Like if you come to fish with us in

BC at the lodge I work with, which is called Skeena's Bay. It's still the same thing. I'm there. Brian, who owns the place, is there. My best friend's there. It's still this real intimate venue. There's no bullshit. I'll never, ever, ever try to take your money just to get you into a lodge. Ever. If it's not your best interest, I'll tell you straight up, don't come. Is this lodge on the road system? No, it's on the river. It's on the road system on the river, yeah. Yeah. And then now that you are in Australia, you're still doing that?

Yeah, well, I'm only in Australia in the winter. So does your old man come here with you when you're here? He comes here for four to six weeks when I'm here for my... So he lives and works there? Yeah, yeah. I don't know what's going to happen with the baby. Things are going to change, but I bought the property.

Before I met Charles, I was really, I was established and had my own, had my property and my dream. So I had bought 20 acres on the Bulkley and it was just bare land and my dream was to build it up from scratch

and just have it be like my, I just kind of wanted to live off land and just, I've got this beautiful riverfront property that's full of fish and there's a bunch of grouse on the property. I've got this beautiful riverfront property. It's full of fish, and there's a bunch of grouse on the property. I mean, it's not a huge property, but my neighbors all own like 600 acres. I mean, there's just lots of land there. You don't mean that you're going to build a lodge.

No, no. I was going to build my little cabin out of my poplars on the property. I quickly learned that that wasn't going to work. So first year before I met Charles, I lived up there in a trailer. And then I met him, and I built a wall tent. We put up a wall tent. And then the next And then I met him and I built a wall tent. We put up a wall tent. And then the next year, we were able to stay in the wall tent. I was able to insulate the wall tent. And then it came down in an ice storm, which is to be expected. That's fine.

And then this last year, I spent a bunch of time with buddies building up all four walls and a roof and making it into like a little shack. And then right now, where I was yesterday, where I am at this time of my year, is up there right now doing all the rest of all my maintenance and a roof and making it into like a little shack. And then right now where I was yesterday, where I, where I am at this time of my year is up there right now doing all the rest of all my maintenance and just getting ready for the season. Yeah. And he'll come in, he comes in September 15th. So he'll be in a little later. He comes in for the,

he comes in for the fishing and I go in for the, the maintenance. Yeah. But that's cool. Cause he does the maintenance. It is, you know, the stuff in Australia. So he's got his life. I've got my life. Is he in the fishing business? No, no, no, no, no, yeah. But that's cool because he does the maintenance of his, you know, the stuff in Australia.

So he's got his life. I've got my life. Is he in the fishing business? No, no, no, no, no. We met on a fishing trip, but he's not in the business, no. Yeah, been there, done that, Steve. Come on. I want to know how you insulated the wall.

Yeah, great question. So the floor and then I had panels. So what I did was I put in like a structure, right? So on beams. And then had to put, we call them bats. Do you guys call them bats? Like the foam insulation? I know what you're talking about.

The big roll that you put in between studs. The big huge slots that you just cut up. The pink foam? Yeah, no, no. Those are the bats on the wall. Sorry, the foam sheets. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, so you put those on the floor

and then we put laminate on top. And then we put bats, the ones that you don't want to touch with your hands, because they're in the walls. So I had like a four-foot structure all the way around of these, like wood. What's that, thin wood? Plywood? No, no. Veneer?

Yeah, like a veneer, all the way around it. And then that was able to insulate. But we couldn't insulate it up top, obviously, because the wall tent was 15 by 20. And so we did lose heat that way. I put in a wood stove, and that was able to maintain some temperature. But now, and then when it came down, we obviously rebuilt and put in baths all the way along and put insulation into the roof. And so now we've got it actually warm.

But it worked. It did work. We definitely were able to keep some heat in, but we did lose heat through the top of the wall tent, yeah. It was a badass tent. I wish you guys could have seen it. Sounds like a nice spot. Yeah.

What's the name of the river again? The Bulkley. There's no fish in it. There's no fish? Yeah, there's fish. Oh, no, it is good. You're like joking. It is good fishing.

Yeah, yeah. You just don't want people flocking up there. It's busy. It's busy. It's busy these days. So I literally, I fish, I wake up, I fish the right, because my spot's right between, so there's like a launch up here and then there's a takeout point there. Yeah. So the only way to get to my place, because if you come in in a jet boat, I can hear you,

so I'm going to beat you to the river. And then if you're coming down in a raft, it takes you quite some time to get to where I'm at. Oh, I got you. Yeah, so I usually go out, I fish first thing in the morning. So you fish first thing in the morning, it takes you quite some time to get to where I'm at. Oh, I got you. Yeah. So I usually go out and fish first thing in the morning. So you can fish first thing in the morning for the first raft or something. Totally. And then when I do see the first rafter, I usually just very quietly disappear so that

I'm not ruining their day and they still feel like they have fresh water. And then that's when I actually go back to my life. So I'm constantly falling trees, bucking trees, splitting trees. And then that's when, remember I spoke to you last time when I was here and I was talking about all this grouse hunting I'm doing. So I spend most of my day just grouse hunting. And then come back, do all my chores, pump water, do all that stuff. And then fish in the evening and then

cook and do it all again the next day. And you're just fishing for steelhead? Yeah. Well, I was there just like this last couple weeks. I was there fishing for Chinook. Like I was saying with spoons. And then when I go back up, I was there fishing for Chinook. Same with spoons. Then when I go back up, I'll be fishing for coho. Now, Matt, have you guided?

Did you ever guide bass? No. I've never guided bass. Just salmon. If I remember this right, you got interested in tournament bass fishing because of working in a sporting goods store. I got interested in tournament bass fishing

and then ended up working in a sporting goods store because of that. So I fell in love with fishing at a very young age, like three, kind of the same, and started with warm water fish, catching bluegill on corn under my friend's dock. And then I vividly remember, I think any hardcore fish junkie remembers the first fish that sort of started their obsession. I caught a fish, a rainbow trout, the Metolius, on this overhanging undercut bank ledge I was standing on. It was an incredible fish.

I still have a picture of it to this day. I mean, this was a long time ago we kept that fish. No, then through through that through the years i ended up getting into bass fishing a lot just because i like the approach i like sort of patterning bass because they're resident fish it's sort of the same way you pattern trout as opposed to the fish that migrate salmon steelhead i just like we gotta wait all damn year to have a yeah yeah and i just think that it's interesting a fish that lives in that body of water, the way that things change for them even throughout the day,

and bass can be unpredictable. They can also be predictable. But anyhow, so I got really into bass fishing, and then one day I was down on the river fishing, and my buddy brought this other guy who turns out fish tournaments. He's older than us, but I didn't even really, I'd never even thought about tournament fishing, but he started talking to me a little bit about it and it got me interested in it and so i started talking to make you mongo dollars no because

i thought it was cool like we had a little we decided to put a little side bet down that day and i beat that guy not that i was better than him i just caught more fish than him that day and i just i thought it was cool that you could be competitive at fishing. I never thought about fishing against somebody. And I thought about fishing against yourself and not against somebody else. And so then I started going into the sporting goods stores and talking to the guys that worked there about bass fishing. And I met the guy that ended up becoming my mentor, a guy named Gary Yexley. And then he ended up, he was a fishing store manager. And then when he moved from a store, Fisherman's Marine,

which is in the city I live in, to Sportsman's Warehouse, I then, he asked me to come work for him. I was guiding in Alaska in the summers and in college at that point in time. And he said, you know, he's like, well, come work for me. You can have the summers off to guide us. Okay, I'll come work at the sporting goods store. And that's actually how I met my wife, Lacey. Yeah, I was going to tell April a little bit about you meeting her

to get her opinion on it. The overview provided at Sportsman's Warehouse. Can I touch on that? The creeper status? Yeah. I can touch on that. I'm always, when I go into the office, I'm nervous right now. I look up there to make sure there's no employees. on that creeper status yeah i can touch i'm always when i go into the first thing i do

i'll look up there to make sure there's no employees he caught wind of uh he caught wind of a new woman working at the place but i saw it if you're gonna we're gonna drag if i can get dragged into this i gotta tell the story it'll be very honest representation i promise i was tell my own version that's made up kind of mostly in my head okay let's i was i was living with with my friend dylan at the time and he'd come into he'd come into sportsman's uh he used to go there all the time like everybody would to get their fishing gear and i was working in the fishing department and and he comes home one night and he's like who is that who is girl? Who is that redheaded girl that works at the front of the store?

And I'm like, what? I had just come back from fishing in Alaska. She had just gotten a job there while I was gone, and I wasn't that familiar. But honestly, I don't know that I was paying a whole lot of attention. And he was like, who is that redheaded girl? Yeah, late? Like, the only girl I could think of is Lacey. And I just hadn't really, hadn't clicked before.

So I'm like, okay, maybe I should like check out Lacey. But you've seen her before? So in Sportsman's Warehouse. Yeah, yeah, I'd seen her before. I just hadn't, I don't know that I was like really out crawling looking for a girlfriend. Wait, so you got out of a season in Alaska and you, really? That's like getting out of jail. Every time I got out of a guiding season when I was single, I was like out of jail.

Okay. I was enjoying my life as a bachelor man, fishing and doing anything. Without looking at women? Okay. No, no. I was in college. Sports is where I was. If you've ever been in one, they're all the same. They have this catwalk around the upstairs

and that's where they keep all the storage. I went up to the catwalk and I went up to, you can see over customer service in the front desk. And I was looking down there. Lacey was down there. To peer at her. I just ended up there staring at her.

I was like, yeah, Lacey is hot. I need to go talk to Lacey. And it just sort of triggered something. So what's that say to you? It says to me, why did you have to be where nobody else could see you? What were you doing up there staring at Lacey? Yeah, why don't you go up to anybody anybody else and go to the front of the store? I just, that was.

No, I thought it was going to be worse. That's a good point. I didn't even think about that part of it. Oh, yeah. No, I'm just up here because I want to see if there are any new kind of candy bars. And what kind of candy bars are you putting in? Snickers. And it's over.

And that's over in the clothing department. I work way over in fishing. So I would have been totally busted over there. It wouldn't have made sense if you went over there. No, I wouldn't have been like, what are you doing up here? Okay. So you were blocked by like... Nothing.

Not fishing. What would you have done if... What if she looked up? What if she looked up? Yeah. You would have acted like he was messing with some merch. But I like to think that Lacey kind of thought I was cute, too. So maybe she would have been like, oh, he's a cute, creepy guy.

Did you later say to her, like when you asked her out, did you say, you know, I've been up in the catwalk looking down. It was years. It was years before I let on about that. She actually started coming back and talking. I'm a total weenie when it comes to talking to girls. It's hard to talk to.

I'm not good at it. She came back and started talking to me. It worked out very well. She actually came back and started talking to me in fishing. She's a lot braver than i am was she uh so now that she knows backstock of the snickers is back here underneath the lures is she now that she know when she found out about that she wasn't troubled by that no well it's too late at that

point no i don't think she was troubled by that yeah it was probably too late no and i don't it honestly was very innocent it It would have been cute because after you know he's not crazy, but like there's always a moment in the first year when we're dating you guys and we're like,

is he crazy? Is it there? Same with you guys to us, right? Like, is she crazy? Yeah, and then you're like, and then you reach that moment where you're like, now I can tell her

that I really am crazy and she won't leave me. Exactly. And then you both realize how crazy you are. There you go. But I think that, but I think early on, you really are.

The main thing you're doing, once you get to the point where you're open to the idea of settling down, I think when you're dating, all you're really trying to do is suss out the craziness. If you've got half a brain, that's what you're trying to do. It's like dating is saying, I'm trying to determine, because obviously the fact that I'm here and you're here, obviously I'm attracted to you, right?

Like all that stuff's in place. Now I just need to find out whether you're insane or not. I think some people miss that part and they wind up married to insane people. It does happen. It really does happen. Yeah. But I think like a reasonable approach,, a reasonable way to describe the process is to be like,

I'm finding out how livable you are. Right. Because I'm attracted to you. I am because I wouldn't have said yes or I wouldn't have asked you out. Yeah. So the second part is, you know. Well, how likable are you?

I mean, how crazy you are falls under that. How likable you are. How much you can handle that person. How much you want to be away from them, all that stuff. Yeah. But yeah, we are totally assessing how they're crazy. And you had like, so you're saying you had like a love at first sight moment.

Yeah. Yeah, actually I really did honestly have, like in the movies, love at first sight moment. But there's still, you're still always trying to be on best behavior in the first year and you're still always wondering you'll see something and you'd be like is that like is that is that a crazy tendency that he has or is that just is that a flaw can i handle that flaw can i handle that flaw forever is that flaw if he doesn't fix it because he's charles is 45 years old like let's get real. I'm not fixing the guy. How old are you? 34.

He's 11 years older. For me, it was like, okay, that's who he is. Am I cool with that? Yeah. I'm cool with that. You don't call him Chuck. No. He's Charles. Charles. He's an Aussie.

No hard R's. No Charles. It wasn't hard for you just to give up on just to move to Australia no because when I met him my whole plan has always been I was going to live somewhere warm in the winter really? that's why you liked him

where are you from again? he's rather attractive what's the weather like there? no he's got that Aussie accent every time he said water I was like oh you, you're mine. It's all mine. So what happened was I was always traveling in my

off season, and I only fished for winter steelhead. I mean, I fished for winter steelhead when I was a crazy obsessed had-to-be-fishing-every-single-day-of-the-week angler. And then for so long, it became work. So I kind of lost the passion for winter steelhead. I've never lost passion for summer steelhead.

But winter steelhead was hard. I had a really bad car accident. I bought a rebuilt foot. And it just started to get really hard out in the cold water, in the cold weather. And so I started doing a lot of, I do a lot of permit fishing and a lot of saltwater fishing. Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah. Tons of flats fishing.

And so I've been spending all of my May, June, July doing as much of that as possible. Well, May and June. Some April if I could take the time off. And I started to look for places to purchase. So I was either going to buy in the Keys or in Roatan. And I found this piece of property in Roatan. Because you were going to guide down there. No, no, no.

I've always known I was not going to guide for that long. You were just going to buy this as a recreational property. And I was just going to live and disappear. That was always the plan. And so when I met Charles, it was like, well, Australia is just a lot longer plane ride. And then, of course, the big... And a lot less permit. No, there's tons of permit in Australia.

Australia is good for permit? Yeah, yeah. People don't talk about going for permit to Australia. People don't know anything about Australian fishing. Yeah, the Indo-Pacific permit is a little different, but they're actually better looking fish. Oh, yeah. You never hear someone say, I'm going to Australia for permit. Good.

Let's keep it that way. Let's keep it that way. Keep it quiet. But yeah, no, there's fantastic permit fishing in Australia. And marlin. I mean, marlin's like my big, huge obsession these days. Marlin fishing. You know what, man?

With a fly rod? Yeah. Okay. Check this out. Oh, I can't wait, Steve. What do you got? I was just down in Mexico on the Pacific Coast near Salulita fishing with my family. And we're out fishing gear.

Conventional. With bait. Yeah. And there's a fly guy. Okay. Okay. But we use bait, though, to get the fish up so we can toss fly. It's pathetic.

He's got two guys on the boat. Okay. get the fish up so we can toss a fly. It's pathetic. He's got two guys on the boat. They obviously went out with a cast net for like three days and caught enough. I can't even imagine how much bait they had on this boat. There's two guys whose job it is to shovel live

bait overboard. No, he's chumming. While this guy flails the water. They are raining scoops of live bait into the water. Well, this guy just beats the water, beats the water, beats the water. There's seagulls coming down to eat this bait they're throwing out. Fish are all over the place. And eventually, of course, of course, he catches one on a fly.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's like bullshit. But no, hold on. Is that a Mexican thing? Because that is not how people fly fish from Marlin. I'm not saying how we do it is any better. How do you draw it up? I'm not saying it's any better.

The plug? Was it for Marlin, what they were doing? No, no, the rooster fish. Oh, well, that's why. Look, now, I'm not saying what we do is any better. But what we do may even be worse. I'm just going to go ahead and put it out there. Because you put a plug in front of it on gear.

Yep. And then you reel it up and eventually plaster a fly down in front of it instead of the plug. Bait and switch. And I guess it's worse because we spend a ton of gas trolling. It's my number one guilty conscience thing that I do is trolling for Marlin. Because I know I should be. Because you're using gear. Yeah, you're using gear to attract Marlin.

It's not the gear. I don't mind the gear. I mind using the boat. You're Because you're using gear. Yeah, you're using gear to attract them, Marla. It's not the gear. I don't mind the gear. I mind using the boat. Just sucking all the gas. Yeah. And so the whole point, though, is to create this disturbance and whitewash to make it look like you're a big school of tuna.

Yeah. And then your lure or your dragged sardine or whatever it is, or slimy mackerel, whatever it is that you've got in the back is looking like a trailing behind fish. And then, of course, it comes up. Everyone freaks out. The bill's up. And the fish is all fluorescent. And then, of course, it comes up. Everyone freaks out.

The bill's up. And the fish is all fluorescent. And it's coming in. And you've got a deckie here. And then you've got your captain up there. And it's just a total cluster. And so he's reeling in. And right as he's about to yank the bait out of the way, you go, yep, yep.

You communicate. He pulls it out. You cast it in. And then it's fished on. Anyone who catches a marlin. But doesn't the amount of bullshit start to get to you? Not necessarily, if you're honest about it. So the reality is anyone who's caught a marlin who stands

there in a photo and says, this is my marlin, no, it takes four. It depends. Like when Charles and I go out on our own, it's the two of us. So what we've got is we've got our boat, we troll in our little boat, okay? He's got the gear rod, or me, whoever's on draw, whoever's up to cast.

So he's on the gear rod, or on the, what do we want to call it? On the... Teaser. Teaser bait. He's on our teaser bait, and I've got the daisy chain out. So he's got the teaser here,

I've got the daisy chain out here on this side. What's the daisy chain attached to? It's a series of squid. I've got it roped off and tied onto the cleat. Another teaser. It comes up. Yeah, it's like a shorter teaser, if you will. No hooks?

No. Neither have hooks. The fish comes up. He reels in. This is what I love doing when it's just me and Charles. He is trying to reel the teaser bait in. I'm now doing the crazy daisy chain roly-poly trying to get in the boat.

The daisy chain itself is probably only six feet, and it's only put back maybe eight, ten feet, not very far. So I've got to get the daisy chain in the boat. He's got to get that in, the teaser bait in. He's got to go, yep, I've got to go, yep, I've got to get my fly rod, I've got to make the cast and land it in front of the fish.

It's still a team effort. It is almost always a team effort. But you're so in love with the idea. You're so in love with the idea of being able to say that it was a fly rod. Not necessarily. You're going to stop. You're preventing the fish from getting hooked in all these ways. So that at the last minute,

you can get it hooked on a fly rod and be like, I caught it on a fly rod. Not necessarily. It's a totally different fight. Because I've hooked on a fly. I'd be like, I caught it on a fly rod. Not necessarily. It's a totally different fight because I've caught them on gear. I've caught Marlin on gear. They're great. Super fun. It's not like you're doing some

standing on a rock doing like the shadow cast. There's no such thing as a shadow cast. I know. That's what I'm saying. You're just flopping this thing down. How is it?

Can you mean because the reel is a little bit different? No, it depends on how you want to pitch it. I mean, if you're going around and you're promoting yourself all over the place saying, look at what I caught on a floor rod, then that's one thing.

But the reality is it's just an entirely different fight. Like for me, my reel, just to have it. I don't know. I mean, I guess that's a really good point and it's a really good argument. It's just bullshit. Well, no, depending on how you want to look at it. No, it's not just bullshit.

It depends on what challenge. I got a friend who's a lion hunter. He's a houndsman. Okay. When he gets a guy, when he takes a guy out and they tree a lion. Yeah. And a bow hunter is like, I'm going to shoot him with my bow. Right.

Well, he doesn't like it. But he's like, okay, shoot with your bow. The guy shoots with the bow. He's like, I killed a lion with my bow. With my bow. He's like, you killed a lion with a hounds. Yeah, but you're talking about someone doing it. The bow didn't have anything to do with this.

Yeah, but that's. So for me, it's a challenge thing. I cannot. So the biggest marlin I could land if I was lucky on a fly rod, if I was lucky, it would be a 300 pounder, if I was lucky. Okay. You just immediately, you just, you disadvantage yourself. It's just harder.

So it's at the last, you're like, okay, I'm going to do all this shit and I got conventional gear and spinning rods and this and that and live bait. It just made it one step harder. At the last second, I'm going to limp dick myself and throw out a fly pole. Totally. That's exactly what it is. Because maybe he'll break off. Well, it's more than that. I don't know.

It just depends on what your challenge is. What do you set out to do? I don't know what everyone's motive is. Mine is not to post a social media photo. It's just I have this thing in my head that it'd be really cool to catch one on the fly. I just want it for myself. I just want to catch it on the fly.

By any means, it's by any means as long as it ends up with a fly. If you wanted to have a better argument, if you wanted a better argument because there's a better argument. You're giving me a better argument? There's a better argument, if you wanted a better argument, because there's a better argument. You're going to give me a better argument? Yeah, I am.

Oh, please. There's a better argument than what you're giving me to do because you just limp-dicked yourself because you got nothing. Here's the thing. A better argument would be this. This is great. All right. Let's talk IGFA bullshit. So a better argument would be, what do you think about this?

If you troll your fly behind the boat and the boat is running, so you're trolling. Okay. And you hook a marlin on the fly. So you're trolling a fly around. Trolling a fly, right? It doesn't count. Why? Let me finish.

But if you want to do it properly. Now, you can see me. No one else can see my hands. The quotations. If you want to do it properly. I confirm she's doing quotation marks. no one else can see my hands, the quotations. If you want to do it properly, you have to take the boat out of gear and then make

the cast so that technically you're not trolling and only then is it counted as a fly caught fish. That's a better argument. What happens if you make a bad cast? Will it not take the fly? No, it still takes the fly. Okay.

That would have solved it all together you had to like put it right on the spot yeah igfa international game fish association yeah so international yeah international so they're like they're saying that uh if you're troll like it's not that's not that does not count as fly fish the boat's got to be out of gear now when go out, we do take the boat out of gear because honestly- But it's still got inertia. Well, yeah, of course it does. It sets the hook for you. Well, check this out.

In duck hunting, you got all momentum from that engine needs to cease before you can shoot your shotgun. That's how it should be. I agree. That's why I'm giving you the argument. If not, you're breaking the law. I'm giving you the better argument because I agree. I agree.

Now, there is this thing, Steve, that you can do that's called free casting. So sometimes you'll see Marlon just bake, like sunbaking. They're just hanging out. That's what I was going to bring up. That's so cool. That's like my dream. That's some badass shit. I would totally be into that.

I know a guy that used to harpoon him like that when he was a kid. All right. Let's check this out. They were a commercial fishing family. He's old, but when he was a kid, his mother was a pilot. His mother would go scout for swordfish, basking swordfish.

Put the coordinates in a canister, or a bearing in a distance, and coordinates in a canister and drop it out of her plane. Her father would get it and they would move up and they had a harpooner on the bow of the boat

and they would move up and harpoon basking swordfish. Oh my goodness, that's unbelievable. For commercial sale. Wow. So I was going to say, if some dude went out and found

himself a genuine bait ball in his boat, kayak, whatever the hell he's in, found himself a genuine bait ball, stalked in there, stripped a fly through there, and tied it into a marlin. So cool, huh? I would be like, that son of a bitch caught a marlin on a fly.

I'll give you that. There is no other way to discuss this. Yeah, no, it's a tough one. I'velon on the fly. I'll give you that. There is no other way to discuss this. Yeah, no, it's a tough one. I've only been doing it. I mean, you and I, I can have an argument with you about Steelhead forever, and I know I'll win when it comes to Steelhead. Because I've been doing it for so long. I'm not even going to argue with you about it.

I don't know. But with Marlon, though, I've only been doing it for four years. So I'm constantly, and I've never landed one on the fly. I really don't know shit about it. But I know that it fascinates me. I just get busted off. Everything that can go wrong goes wrong. Actually, I'm

going to go next week because I'm just determined before this baby comes to get a marlin to the boat or to hand. I just so badly want to get one. It's just like it's a competition I set for myself. I'm not competitive with anyone else and it's certainly not for any bragging rights. You can't lift the fish out to get photos or anything.

For myself, I just want to know that I've done it. Here's the thing. I used to think this is going to sound horrible because I used to look at bass fishing a little bit like this too. It's people taking elements of golf, which I detest,

and introducing golf elements into fishing. I disagree. Do explain what's your reasoning behind that. Just like taking all the reality in the blood. Once you remove the reality in the blood, I just feel like it winds up... But it is reality and blood.

How can you remove reality and blood? That's like saying, how do you remove reality and blood from hunting? Like become a photographer. Well, you can't. Right. You can't with fishing either. That protects some of the sanctity of hunting.

Right. There's people that get around it because there's people that shoot stuff and then don't take care of it or shoot stuff and whatever. I mean, there's like to get around it because people that shoot stuff and then don't take care of it or shoot stuff and whatever i mean there's like ways of um of breaking the chain right that leads from the action which is like it's food these are old food acquisition technologies sure okay like ways of acquiring food now we've stripped out all kinds of shit, and some might argue,

we've stripped out the necessity. If I don't hunt fish, I like to eat a lot of wild game. If I didn't hunt fish, I'm sure a ship's not going to starve. I'd eat great. So the necessity's gone, and some people would look and say,

dude, the necessity's gone. You've stripped the reality away. It's nothing now. It's just a shadow. It's just a game you play now, because the reality away. It's nothing now. It's just a shadow. It's just a game you play now because the reality is gone. And I would look and I could explain that I do feel that the reality is still there. Because this is a choice that I'm – like this is a choice I make about how I live and how I eat. But I'm open to the idea.

Someone might present that. And I think that once you get... There's other steps. We all sort of find our own way. We all sort of recognize our own methods in life as being kind of perfect. And everyone else is a deviation from that. But I would look and say some things, when you strip

more of it away, it's just you're playing golf with living golf balls. Yeah, I'll give you that with marlin fishing. I won't give you it with all fly fishing. I'll give you that with marlin because I know that for me when I was first getting into it and learning about it, there's

a whole lot of wait, what? How does that make sense? How does that make sense? I don't get it. There are a lot of things that still don't make sense to me. Same with the IGFA thing. They want you fishing 20-pound leader. 20-pound leader? Yeah, like 20 to 30-pound. And my big thing is, aren't you playing the fish longer?

And that's a whole different argument, and that's a whole different guest, because I'm not an IGFA player. But yeah, I'll give you that with marlin fishing. It is a game, 100%. Yeah, there's a whole lot of things when you look at it. And the balls are marlin. Yeah, yeah yeah I guess so

I mean but I don't feel guilty about it because the marlin haven't in my four years anyway there's been no hurt marlin I'll tell you that

but it's been a whole lot of hurt to me but not to the marlin haven't heard of marlin yet oh they're kicking my ass are you kidding me they just go off I'm getting owned

I'm getting owned do you fish with 20 or 30 pound leader? I have fished with 30 and 40. Yeah. Yeah. I've never actually hooked up on 30. I've hooked up on 40. So you're saying to win, you got to be down to 20.

In the IGFA. I don't do it. I don't know. Yes, but I have no interest in it. I think that's strange that they would encourage stressing fish out more. I totally agree. But if you talk to, and actually this is an interesting point, and again, I'm not the one to speak to.

I've got a guest lined up on my show who is an IGFA record holder, and he is frothing at the bit to get on the show to explain his point. And he thinks he has a very valid point, and I'm interested in hearing it, because he's adamant that a skilled angler can land that fish on 20 pound in the same amount of time as a non-skilled angler on 100 pound. Oh. Yeah, that's his reasoning. What about a skilled angler on 100 pound?

His thing is it doesn't matter, because you're using the drag of the water. Well, yeah, but you can say like a skilled hunter is going to kill a deer with a 22 more effectively than a real shit hunter with a 270. Okay, see, so it goes in all aspects. Therefore, everyone should use 22s. That's like a very cockeyed logic. Yeah. You can lay that out. You can explain that to your guests.

I don't know anything about guns, but I will do my best. But in the bass fishing, you guys don't, the fight of the fish isn't really an issue. How so? You speed them right up into the boat. That is how you eliminate. You will get them in easier the faster you get them into the boat, typically, yes. We'll fish bass.

If you're flipping pads with a jig, you'll tie sometimes 80 pounds. So flipping lily pads get flipping as a technique where you you basically you don't even cast you you just have line hanging out the end of your rod and you grab in between your first guide and your reel and you pull that line out and that brings the bait up out of the water yeah and then you swing it out and then you let the line go and then it goes a little farther it just is an easy way to like pick your up, stick it in a hole, pick it up, stick it in a hole. You know what we used to call that? We used to cut steelhead like that.

What? Well, be like chucking. Chucking. Okay. Chucking. Yeah. You're like chucking. Some people say chucking and ducking when you had lead on the line.

Yeah. Yeah. You literally did check it back so so we'll run we'll run 80 or fish and frogs over lily pads where the bass come and eat and pull you down into a big mat of grass you'll run 80 pound braid direct to your frog and us and an eight to one retrieve reel there's no rules on this on a meat like total meat stick like just basically like like a broomstick and as soon as they bite you just reel as fast as you can and you basically are skipping the fish almost across the water so they don't even have a chance to really know what hit them they're like just flying so it doesn't

does not always work like that a lot of times they'll pull you down and and you get hosed anyways they're faster cagey fish they live in places around a lot of cover they hang you up they're not big ones are not easy to land. See, and I can't even argue him because he's getting the fish in as fast as possible. So there's no argument there. My only argument is that the purpose of it is that you're doing it to catch as many as possible. But because it's bass, I really don't care because they're not really. They're not indigenous.

It's not about getting them in. You want to get them in the best way you can, and it depends on what you're using to catch those fish like in lake washington the the lake was really clear so we were having to use drop shot for the most part with very light leader and pretty light rods which means you can't horse on them too much you want to bring them as fast you can but we're in open water and so a lot of times you just have to play them until you get them in the boat. If we were running 80-pound braid and they were biting, yeah, we would have just sucked them right up. But we couldn't. What's the goal, though,

is to catch as many as possible in a tournament? The goal in a tournament is to catch the biggest five fish you can. Oh, I see. And you pull them. So, you throw your smallest one back, put one whatever is bigger than that until you have a bag of five fish that's as big as possible. I get it.

You know why he was telling me that bass guys don't use – tell us again why bass guys won't use live bait. I actually didn't know this. Okay. This is interesting. He said it works too good. My opinion is that bass guys don't use live bait. Yes, one, because if you want to know really why i think bass guys don't use live bait it's because it's from a marketing perspective and it's because there's an entire

industry established around using plastic and artificial lures that's and again the aspirational element of tournaments tournaments drive the culture in bass it's the same reason you've got a boat that goes 80 miles an hour and and everything else. Because the tournament anglers use these things, and that drives the market, and the people sponsoring the tournament anglers are all these companies that make money by selling baits. And now we've just circled all the way back to, now you understand why my head is where it's at.

I just can't, all of it. I just can't. It's just too much. Really? Yeah, I hate it. It's like industry. I just can't. It's just too much. Really? Yeah, I hate it. It's like industry. I really hate it. It really bothers me.

But I don't think that that's any different. So because that drove me to the state that I'm in where that's the way I like to fish for bass, I could use worms and 80-pound braid and catch bass, but I don't, and it's more difficult to catch them on weightless Senkos or whatever you might want to use and target them in that way. It's harder to do.

That's no different than what you're doing. With fly fishing. Nick would want to make it really hard. Well, I sound like the biggest hypocrite in the world because listen to the fly fishermen saying, I mean, basically, I'm calling myself out for sure, but just when you hear yourself say it, like why we don't fish, I don't know. Did you ever do television?

Did you do television? No. No, like what do you mean do television? I you do television? No. No, like, actually, what do you mean do television? I've been on a television, I've been on a fishing television show before. Yeah, where they want you to plug stuff, and today I'm using Billy Bob bass bucks.

No. Did you do a show about bass fishing? No, it was salmon fishing. Okay. Yeah. Now, why, why has bass fishing, how come there's not another kind of fish Why has bass fishing...

How come there's not another kind of fish that people want to go catch and you win $100,000 for catching it? Yeah. Redfish. Marlin. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Marlin's got a tournament. They're giant.

There's marlin. You can win way more money in a marlin. So I'm wrong. You can win a million dollars in a billfish tournament. Yeah. Yeah, because Hemingway used to like to fish those tournaments.

Yeah. Okay. That's big boy sport. The bass hasn't monopolized Dublin. The Calcutta. So bass fishing hasn't cornered the tournament market. The reason bass fishing has cornered the tournament market here is

because bass are in 49 states. They're very accessible and everybody can fish for bass. So it's a very relatable type of fishing. Everybody can fish. Bass is super approach can fish for bass. It's a very relatable type of fishing. Everybody can fish. Bass is super approachable. It is. It's like a blue-collar fishing. It's like basketball or soccer. It's the

soccer of fishing. Do you know what's funny? When I was trying to get my visa to work in the States because there was a time when I wanted it, they wouldn't recognize me as a professional angler unless I had a certain amount of competitive wins under my belt or whatever. And I had to explain with my career

that my reputation isn't based on these competitions that bass anglers have. And they could not wrap their heads around that. You could have come down and we could have got some wins, some second place finishes in club tournaments and you would have been good to go. I married an Australian. We could have won like 80 bucks.

It would have been great. Right, 80 bucks, yeah. But, Matt, you've won some purses. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, all time we're definitely in the red. But, yeah, we've won some money. We've gotten some checks north of $1,000. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear from the canadians whenever we do a raffle or

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So tournaments, they're not anymore. It's like you don't even get trophies or a lot of times you don't get plaques. I would rather have a plaque than a check. It's a bummer to me that I don't get a little trophy or something when we win. I would go with a check, man.

The check, they're insignificant. It'd be one thing if I was making big money. Probably wouldn't care about the trophy, but the $200. You spend $350 in gas and whatever else to go to a tournament, you win $250 if you win. Give me a plaque. When I was in 10th grade, in 10th grade English, you had to write a paper.

You had to write a comparison contrast paper. You guys know what those are. And I remember I did mine on Herman Melville, maybe Melville and Hawthorne. My comparison contrast paper. And my 10th grade English teacher, Mr. Heaton, sent it in to an essay contest, the Ruth V. Robinson Essay in the Humanities Contest.

He asked me if he could send it in, and I said no. And I don't know why, but he sent it in, and I got second place. First runner up, which I thought I won, but then someone clarified

that first runner up is just a way of screwing with you, and you're like, second place. First place got a check. Cash. But then someone clarified that first runner up is just a way of screwing with you. And you're like, second place. First place got a check. Cash. They got like 500 bucks.

Second place got a thesaurus. And I was devastated because I went to the award ceremony thinking that there would be money exchanging hands. Did you know when you went to the awards ceremony that you were first runner up? I knew that, no, by then I had cleared up that I in fact had not won. Did you look up how many ways you could say disappointed? Yeah, so that's my next paper. My next paper is on the true meaning of disappointed.

$500 cold hard cash. Yeah, so I go down there expecting to get money but didn't get money and got a thesaurus and was seriously bummed because money is like, I think there's a validating effect of money. But the reason I bring this up about money or a trophy, in this case, a thesaurus, and one of the ways that a line I'll always remember is, and I'm in 10th grade, right? And I'm complaining about not getting the cash to Mr. Heaton. And Mr. Heaton said,

he was off by a wide margin, but I was complaining about only having the thesaurus. And he said, okay, she got $500, but there's $10,000 worth of words in that book, which is good. He undervalued it. He undervalued the English language, I would say. But it was a thing that happens where money is validating.

And I think that you're a bigger man if you're happier with a trophy than money. Depending on how much money. Depending on how much money. Yeah. So if i said matt you can have a hundred grand or a trophy oh come on yeah no question if you if it was if it was a thousand dollars or a trophy i would take the thousand dollars but most of the time these tournaments like in our bass club we you have these plaques and every time you get it for

a second or third place you get like what the lake is it goes on this plaque and it's got little other little placards you put on to the plaque that say like first place 10 mile lake you know 19 pounds 19.82 pounds and and you can fill them up but we stopped doing that and and you win 60 bucks it's not like life-changing money i want the little yeah give me the i want to fill those up. The money gets so little. The thesaurus becomes attractive. It's really about the competition is what it's about. I'd rather have something to commemorate the fact that I placed well in the competition than

$60, which is just a deduction from the $300 it cost me to get to Ten Mile Lake and fish the tournament. It's just a totally different mentality. When social media came around, just circling back to where we started on this, when social media came around,

it wouldn't have been as big of a shock for you because you guys were already into having that sort of culture of trying to prove yourselves and trying to showcase and trying to win. Bass fishing is still not really, they're still so far behind the times social media-wise. How can you guys be behind the times

when you're the only ones who make money in this industry? Maybe that's why. Maybe they haven't monetized it in other ways. Yeah, why do they need it? You either... It's all you care about is the number. Yeah.

Can you catch 22 pounds worth of bass in this lake? You can make millions of dollars if you're really good. There's only a few people this lake? You can make millions of dollars if you're really good. There's only a few people that do. You can make millions of dollars just on tournament earnings fishing bass. You may or may not need. By the time you get to that point, of course, those hugely popular athletes are, if you want to call them athletes, the professional bass fishermen, they are generally older at that point.

Not always. I think I'm getting to a place now, though, where the people I was thinking of as older are now my age now. I think, oh, Danny Brower and Kevin Van Damme, well, they're in their late 40s and up to 60 now, but now a lot of times you'll see, maybe they're like he wasn't so old after all yeah but but maybe and this may actually go back to the athleticism a bit of it

at least in that you have to be in good enough shape to put up with the boat rocking and the casting all day and that you'll notice a lot of times some of the older guys in bass fishing will start to phase out and the younger anglers will start to do better when i say younger i mean people are in their 30s it's exhausting yeah all day yeah will start to do better. When I say younger, I mean people in their 30s. It's exhausting to fish all day. And to do it four days straight. Not just one day, but four days in a row. Blaze and sun.

Blaze and sun. Just like four long days of 18 holes in a row. We're back to the gulf. Not even close. Here's the thing. If you have to walk the course, I'll give it to you. But the thing about with the social media that you're bringing up here, though,

is this is the bass fishing is the meritocracy that you were saying you wanted. What does meritocracy mean? That things are handed out based on merit. Yeah, that's exactly my point that's what i'm saying for him bass fish like it would be that like a professional bass fisherman would have nothing to gain there's no image it's just you're just selling your ability to do it that's why if he does it he wouldn't it wouldn't be such a shock that was my whole point so if he does it it's not a huge shock but But in my world, in our world, it was like, wait, wait, wait, what's going on?

I mean, you're not supposed to advertise how your day is. You're supposed to keep it quiet because you don't want people to know you caught fish. You don't want people to know you're on the water. You don't want them. Yeah, you got it. So just a totally different world. So you couldn't even build up your actual certified credentials? You could, but it wasn't necessarily going to be well-received.

That's a whole other gambit. And what you would do is you would try to, what you should do, is try to build up your credentials as far as your skill, but then you're not supposed to try to prove it with how many fish you catch. You're still taking a bunch of people out onto the rivers all the time and showing them how to fish. It's a really interesting argument. It's just a really interesting argument.

And it's one now that we have enough people to be able to have these intelligent conversations because we've been in social media for enough years to see where we are today. And that's a whole different story. But back then, nobody knew where it was going to go. So it's just this whole big what if. This big what if up in the air.

What's going to happen to our sport now that it's on the internet? But you don't regard yourself. Do you regard yourself as a social media person but a lot of person so many social media personality tons of people think that's what i do it's hilarious well okay what is the social media personality no i'm not a social media personality not even close but what i i find interesting is a lot of people will write my bio people who don't fish and they will assume that because of my social media following which actually isn't fish, and they will assume that because of my social media following, which actually isn't that high, but they'll assume that

I make a living off my social media and I've got to stop and go, can you actually revise that? Because I do not make my money off social media. I use it as a platform to get the word out about what I'm doing, but I don't make my living off social. It's crazy. If someone asked you,

if you were sitting next to someone on a plane, and they're like, what do you do for a living? I work in fly fishing. Then I say, oh, I like to fly fish. What do you mean? I say, awesome. Good for you. Honestly, I'm at the point now where people will be like, what do you do for a living?

I'm a writer. Then I just hope to God they don't ask me what I write about. It's too hard to explain. What do you do in fly fishing? Oh, I like to fly fish. Oh, my brother-in-'s too hard to explain. What do you do in fly fishing? Oh, I like to fly fish. My brother-in-law likes to fly fish. What do you do in fly fishing? And then try explaining to someone what your career is when it's so

spread out all over the place. So you get sick of the conversation. Don't you? It's funny to hear you say that. I start at the exact same place. What do you say? I'm a writer.

Which is like a really cop-out. I'd start at the exact same place. What do you say? I said I'm a writer. You write? See. Which is like a really cop out, right? And 50% of the time they say, oh really, what do you write about? Eight years ago, I would have been like dead nuts, right? Like any money I made,

I made from shit that I wrote. Sure. That was like all of my income. Yeah. Was like the trading of goods. Totally. Here's my product that I wrote. You give me money for the product that I wrote.

Right. Flat-ass outrider. But now, yeah, it's like in small talk, which I can't stand. I don't like small talking with strangers. No. Yeah, stuff like that's painful. It's really painful. Your kids are in school, and you'll find out about this.

Your kids are in school, and there's endless events. You're supposed to go small talk with other parents. Yes. And you end up having conversations that go like, oh, my friend was from there. Well, we lived there. Now we live here. Oh, I knew a person that lived there. Now we live here too.

Yeah. You're hurting my ears right now, Steve. It's hurting my ears. there now we live here oh i knew a person that lived there now we live here too yeah um you're like you're hurting me my ears right now steve it's hurting my ears like what do you do and i'm like yeah so what's the out like what can writer i'm gonna start telling people i'm a stripper it's just gonna shut it down you know what you're right because no one's gonna say like what kind oh okay and then they're to go back to reading their newspaper. I'm serious. I'm serious. No, it'll end it.

Yeah, because I'm over it. I understand it. They'll be like, I'm all uncomfortable now. Totally. But it's not malicious. I mean, they want to engage, right? Oh, it's fine. But then they want to hear the story.

And it's not like there's an investment of your time. Because they're never going to book with you. They're never going to be inspired i mean sometimes they're inspired enough but it's rare yeah i'm being a dick right now i'm being like they're not doing anything wrong i'm not blaming them i'm saying like too but yeah it's just like of uh especially in an airplane like already coming from not liking yeah if you're already coming from not liking small talk with people you don't know that you're not going to wind up you're not developing relationships if i feel like i'm developing relationships,

that makes me happy. If I'm doing a one-off chat, I have a hard time. And then when you enter into that, and then you got to, it just, yeah. It just drains the life out of me. No, that's interesting to hear that you have the same problem. I just thought I was a bitch.

But I never, like I still come across charming. I'll still smile and be bitch, but, but, but I never, like, I still come across charming. I'll still smile and be like, oh, you know, I'm a writer. And then I'll usually try to change stuff. And then I'll, I'll say,

what do you do? Like, just don't mind me, whatever. What do you, what do you do? I'm a stripper. Yeah.

So I'm stripper. Okay. It might work. Yanni, what do you tell people you do? It's a tough one too. People ask. Oh, all the time.

Do you say you work in entertainment? No. Produce television show. Oh, yeah. What does a producer do? Produce television. Then you're stuck. Yeah, it's a long-winded answer.

Yeah, there needs to be something quick to shut it down. Yeah, I tell them. I generally tell them. Freshman bass fisherman. Yeah. I got the $1,000 to prove it. Do you say that? No. No, I'll tell people that I Fresh from Bass Fisherman. Yeah. I got the $1,000 to prove it. Do you say that? No.

No. No, I'll tell people that I work in marketing. Got it. Usually I say I work in marketing in the shooting sports industry. Really? Even though you're not? Yeah. No, that is really the primary market that we're in is hunting, tactical.

Those are the two primary markets for what we call the category of sports cutlery or specialty knives. Sports cutlery. Specialty knives. The reason that I don't... Maybe for the same reasons, but once I start into that conversation, it requires

a long train of explanation that I don't really want to go into, so I will just give them a, that is the generalization. Maybe it's like, I'm a writer. What's the answer that leads to the long train? Well,

so I would say, I would say, oh, I'm a, I work, I'm a marketing director at Benchmade Knife Company. Well, what's Benchmade Knife Company?

Oh, well, it's Benchmade Knife Company where blah, blah, blah, you know, and then I usually feel like, you know,

maybe they'll, maybe they do or maybe they don't care but it's going to require me to have a conversation that leads down the road of okay well tell me more about sports cutlery or tell me more about shooting sports or oh tactical knives those are cool tell me yeah so if i'm invested in the conversation i'm interested in talking to that person then yeah i'm fine talking with it but i generally also don't know that i especially with strangers really enjoy talking about myself that much so i usually will ask them questions about themselves you do it to you so for me it's sorry to interrupt it's just

a total mood thing if they catch me at like 10 a.m in the airport and i've had like one or two coffees and i'm feeling pretty spry and i just got done on a hunting or fishing trip and they're like, so what are you doing? I'm like, buddy, you got an ear? Pull up the chair. You know, but yeah, like right now, I don't want to tell any stories. What do you say? Like what would be, because my big thing is, because then they want to know my life story.

Oh, really? Did your dad fish? How did you get into it? Oh, that's so interesting. Are there a lot of women in the sport? I just, what's a good way without me saying I take my clothes off for a living, what is a good, like, help me out, guys. Give me a pitch. You're all about the pitches. Give me an excuse.

What's something I can say to get out of this? To get out of it? I could say I work in marketing. I work in marketing. Or you could say I'm a professional fisher. No, hell no. That's what gets me. No. No, that's never going to end. It gets me. No. You mean just to never going to end. It gets me. No.

You mean just to get out of the conversation? You could say, I don't work. Get me out of it. I'm a stay-at-home mom. No. No one's going to be like, how many kids do you have? Yeah. I think it boils down to

as much as anything. So I'm not actually a mom. That's a good point. It's probably what kind of mood you're in. And if you just really don't like talking about yourself with strangers that much, and you feel like it's not necessarily going to turn into something meaningful, then it doesn't matter what you say. You're right.

You could say I'm a stay-at-home mom. You could say I'm a stripper, and the person might say, oh, that's cool. My sister was a stripper. You still get stuck in the conversation. Tell me more about stripping. The best way is to diverge the conversation just get back at them i think that's what's worked for me best is just being like you know well you know i work in the outdoors what do you do or you know i notice you're reading this what is and i'm

actually interested in what they do i just don't want to explain my life story i know my life story i'm not interested in it anymore it's kind of cool to hear someone else's. To sum this whole thing up, I'm going to say that I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that other people don't like that kind of small talk.

And what it's going to change for me is I'm going to really make damn sure that I never... Now I'm going to assume there's four people at this table who don't like that kind of small talk. Maybe the person talking to you. I'm really going to be very good about not making other people do what I now know is

universally not liked. I'm never going to say to someone, what do you do for a living? I don't feel that I do that. No, it's just too loaded of a question. It's just too much. I'm done man if i've ever done it for and i don't think that i have like damn sure i'm not gonna now go up to someone now that i know it's gonna be so annoying for them when i ask what

they do for a living we talked about this before we're pretty good at sussing out the hunters and fishermen i could smell them a mile away. At these little events. That's the conversation. You got to go find and then you just get to talk about hunting. I got to go to a wedding reception. There's this one dude there that fishes or hunts. I'm going to find him.

If not, I'm going to try real hard not to talk to anybody. Find the guy with the elk tattoo on his forearm. Yeah, I, maybe that, so guiding, that's the thing that I didn't like about guiding that I decided like early on I don't want to be a guide because I would come back from Alaska and I would have no interest in going fishing for salmon.

I didn't want to, I didn't want to even look at a salmon. And I just thought, man, this is like my thing. I love fishing. I don't want to turn fishing into work. I didn't want to even look at a salmon. I thought, man, this is my thing. I love fishing. I don't want to turn fishing into work. I can talk about fishing with somebody or hunting all day. Because it's not work. It's not work. That's a really

interesting point you just said that. Because, like you, I made that mistake with fishing. I'm very blessed to have my career. I'm not taking it for granted by any means. But because I do know the mistakes I made with fishing, and I know I don't want to make those mistakes with hunting, I can't tell if it's because I don't have hunting as a career

or if it's that I just haven't been hunting long enough. But I'm more than happy to talk about hunting with people, non-hunters, hunters, whomever. But it hurts me to talk about fishing and if you really want to hurt me pull your iphone and start showing me photos of your fish on your iphone nothing or your cousins brothers oh that's what me and yanni wind up in we wind up talking to some dude who's showing us a deer and it winds up being that uh you could have just gone on to a website like by the time they get done with all this is my cousins brothers neighbors shot this buck yeah what really are we talking

about yeah how do we even get here exactly yeah no so maybe that's what it is because yeah there's certain things i got no problem talking about but with fishing because it is my career because i'm just so sick of hearing my own story, I don't want to talk about it anymore. But I want to touch on the hunting thing for a minute. Yeah, go for it. Have you shot a big game animal yet with a gun or bow? No, not successfully.

Are you fixing to? Yeah, well, I went stag hunting this year with Adam Greentree. And he called this one beautiful stag. New Zealand? In Australia. In Australia? Yeah, we this one beautiful stag and you know zealand in australia in australia we got great stag hunting in australia but i guess because i wasn't comfortable with the shot was i mean he came in at me face on so you know how their ribs close up as they face you and i was shooting one of those like a triple what do you call them triple blade tri blades or three blade yeah and i just it wasn't the right shot for me, so I didn't take it. My heart was going crazy.

Obviously, you've hunted stag before. Yeah, well, yeah, I have. In Scotland and New Zealand. Yeah, so you know how they roar, that crazy roar. Yeah, but I've never hunted them during the roar. I've heard it, but I've never hunted them during the roar. It's the most incredibly terrifying thing that I've ever experienced, in the most wonderful way.

And, of course, you're here in the most wonderful way. And of course, you're here in the ground and it's vibrating underneath you. It was amazing. But no, I wasn't able to get a decent shot in. So I'm going back. So you had the restraint. You didn't just be like,

what the hell? Yeah, no. No, no, no. No. I wanted to be right. I wanted to be right. So it wasn't right. But maybe this night

I'll go back next week because I was telling Anis that my goal before this baby is to catch a giant chevalier and a marlin and get a deer on the bow. How many months pregnant are you? Five and a bit. My brother's wife.

I've got him booked. Next week, I go to Australia for my hunting trip, and then I go on my marlin trip. I got my trips booked. I don't know if I'll be successful, but I'm going to go for it. My brother's wife, she hiked up and killed a mountain goat when she was six and a half months pregnant. Oh, yeah. And I'm going to still be going until I'm seven and a half.

I'll be going straight through until they say I can't anymore, for sure. Can you hunt anything in Australia pretty much any time of year with a bow? Yeah, for the most part. I mean, obviously kangaroos are indigenous, but even they are open season. I have a no-paw rule. I just don't eat things with paws. It's not even an ethical thing. I just don't. You count a kangaroo as a paw.

Yeah, I do. I just have no interest in hunting or eating kangaroos. I've eaten kangaroo. I don't particularly fancy it, so it's not that interesting. The fact that they call deer and that people if I mean farmers want them dead and then they just rot on their property. They don't even eat them half the time or they shoot them out of helicopters.

It's just a really great entrance into the sport are these feral deer. You still appreciate and love them, but it's just a different mentality over there. You feel better about killing the deer. The deer doesn't suffer. The deer doesn't suffer less knowing

that he's feral. I know. When I had you on my show, you had a super valid point, but it's just for the population. He's like knowing that he's feral. I know. And when I had you on my show, you had a super valid point. But it's just for the population-wise. He's like, yeah, I deserved it. No, but for the population-wise, it's easier just to wrap your head around a lot of that sort of hunting. And same thing with the pigs. Yeah, but you just come in cold without understanding a whole lot of complex history and structural regulatory structure. You can come in cold and be like, I'm not doing...

I can just, without really looking into this hard, figure out that I'm not doing ecological damage by hunting this animal. I don't think you're doing ecological damage by hunting animals that are wild in BC either, for example. There is something for me, not even for me actually, because I'm good hunting in both

countries. I'm quite content and I do hunt in both countries or on both continents. But for my dad, who's so opposed to hunting, it is easier for me if I am going to go down the path of having the conversation with a non-hunter, which is just as painful oftentimes as talking about what you do for a living.

But if I am trying to explain to a non-hunter why hunting in Australia maybe isn't so bad, the fact that they can envision people hunting them out of helicopters and then just letting them all rot in mass piles, that really strikes a chord with them. They'd rather that animal be consumed. So it's just a good starting point. interviewing hunters. I had you on there and I decided, I had you and several other hunters and I decided to post my Adam Greentree podcast first for a reason because he's an Australian hunter. Because he

could explain hunting to all my listeners who don't hunt. He could explain hunting and always fall back on the feral animal thing. Even though, let's get real, the animals don't know they're feral. But it does help the non-hunter wrap their head around it a little bit better, I find. Like people would say like, yeah, I believe in hunting as long as it's a feral.

And some people actually do believe in hunting as long as it's feral. But they're wrong. Well, it depends on how far you want to go into like the, yeah, no, they're wrong. Yeah, I think if you either believe in hunting or you don't, full stop, end of story. But because there's always a conservation issue behind all hunting. Like, let's get real about it. I don't know anything about the Africa stuff, but I'm just talking about in BC and in Australia,

whether it's an indigenous animal or whether it's introduced, there's always a conservation background or reason somewhere behind that opening for the most part. Somewhere in it. Somewhere in there, yeah. So you feel that if you're talking to your audience and they're fly fishing people that the fly fishing people are you feel more comfortable uh introducing them to the idea of hunting by having it be that you're out killing exotics i thought that because i was going to interview him anyway and i just thought that

strategically i might just post that one first because he came across quite gentle. I felt like he was a good starting point to introduce my listener to bow hunting. And I was right. I was right. The amount of feedback I got was incredible. The amount of people who said I was actually really upset to hear that you were going to start posting about hunting.

I listened to the podcast, and it made perfect sense to me. I totally got it. And I think because Adam was able to fall back on explaining why a lot of feral animals are so bad to the ecosystem, it did give him a little more understanding. But he probably likes those animals being there, though, because he likes to hunt them. Of course he does. Yeah. No, we could take that argument as deep down as we want, as deep down that road as we want. But the point is for the average person who wouldn't even think to entertain picking up any sort of gun or a bow,

it was just a good starting point. It gave them a little bit different perspective. Now, of course, that same perspective is here in North America. The same conservation issues apply here. But for some reason, just as soon as they hear feral and wasted meat and helicopter culling, for some reason, they're just more receptive to it. And for me, I don't care how I get them to listen.

If I could just get my dad to listen just anyway, and if that's how I'm going to do it by talking about feral animals, then hell, I'm going to talk about feral animals. I find that here in this country where people will be like, you know, all the life they heard, because where they're brought up generally, how and where they're brought up, they've heard all their life, like, hunting's real bad, hunting's bad. It's all these, you know, bloodthirsty people.

When they start getting interested in hunting, they are working, they're trying so hard to find a way to justify it, because they're kind of sickened. Yep. They're sickened by their own interest yeah they're like i feel this need to i feel like i want to go do something and i'm tapping into some deep thing that i want to go do i just need to find a way that i can justify sell it to everyone no to yourself everyone usually wants the first thing they want to go do is they want to go hunt a wild pig because they're like, that way I don't need to deal with that much of trying to figure this out. I think you have it kind of wrong. Because I can fall back on this idea that the pig shouldn't be here,

so this is going to be an easier way for me to get into this than getting into shit that's really complicated and hard to get. Everything you just said is bang on in my experience because you're talking to one of those people right now. I've been brought up to understand that hunting is bad. It's unnecessary. Don't worry about where your food comes from. I mean, all this bullshit, right? Obviously, I don't believe in that. That's why I hunt.

But the thing is that it's not about me justifying to the rest of the world. I mean, I wanted my podcast to be listened to by the rest of the world so that they could open their eyes and their ears a little bit. But for me, I'm that person you're talking about. And it was never about justifying to other people. It was about justifying to myself. Because I was so confused because the animal, and I did this piece on social media the other day, there's actually a picture of the stag that we called in. And it's the moment where I'm on full draw.

We're like 15 yards from each other. We're literally, I'm watching him search my face with his eyes until his eyes lock into mine. And then we have that moment. It's just the most incredible moment of my life. And it was one of those situations of, I really don't want to shoot you. Like, please go away. Like, just don't give me the right shot. Don't give me the right shot.

And of course he didn't. So, you know, but it was a constant, it's a constant battle of, if I really want to kill this animal, if I really want to harvest this animal, then why do I have this crazy urge to not pull the trigger? I mean, it's a constant battle within myself. It's very confusing. And I made my first hunt be a pig for sure. I wanted to see, I was in Florida, granted, it was just, that's what was in season. There were pigs. So I wanted to see, I was in Florida, granted, it was just that's what was in season. There were pigs. So I don't know if it was a conscious decision, but I wanted to see how I felt about having an animal die in front of me. And my buddies were going on a hunting trip with guns. And I really was not, I didn't thoroughly enjoy the experience, but I did choose a pig. It was interesting to hear you say that because I did

choose that as my first one. But to justify to myself, and it's still a constant battle, Steve. It's still a constant battle about why when that animal does come in, why there's a part of me that's like, oh God, I really don't know if I want this shot. But then deep down, I really want the shot. It's very confusing. It's very conflicting for a new person. And I don't know if it's my own, if it's my upbringing and my indoctrination that inserts that sort of uncertainty or if it's my own sensitivity or if it's my own uncertainty. I don't know what it is, but there is something in me as a new hunter who's just a little bit confused by it for sure. Them pigs want to be in the gateway drug though, man. They are.

I think that, well, I think seeing your first animal dies really, it's a different experience, right? Like it was a real experience for me to watch my first animal die and I needed to see if I could handle it. And for some reason, for some reason,

the pig was a justifiable animal for me. I'm not saying it's right, but. I think it's an adult onset hunter thing where you're like you're just mature enough to have collected thoughts in that moment to be like, I do,

but I don't. I do, but I don't. Run away. Don't run away. When you're 12 and that deer runs in for the first time, it's just tunnel vision. All these people getting into hunting as adults man they're dealing with like they're on a way different trip than when you're like a kid who grows up around hunting that's what i'm talking about yeah it's but it's hard it's a very very conflicting trip

it's it's it's difficult and that is something we're talking you asked me earlier about if somebody said you know i want you to take people by the hand and lead them through and that's the sole reason why i've introduced the the hunters on the podcast is just to have them follow with me in this crazy journey because it is conflicting coming into this as an adult it is for sure you just need to get one under your belt yeah maybe next week you have a sense of like i didn't grow up in a hunting family either you know didn't really start hunting hard until i was 18 17 18 and my friends could we had cars and you get around on our own and all that but yeah when you're young and you don't have

a whole lot of maybe thoughts of your own at that point in time and you're just looking to have fun you get that out of the way early then later on there's always there's always if you really if you're sounds like you may be sort of soft-hearted when it comes to animals, there will always be a sense of remorse. And it's never been for fun. There will never not be a sense of remorse. No, and it's impossible for me to not have a sense of remorse because there is that, yeah.

Do you feel bummed out when you kill a Chinook? Yeah, for a moment, I do. Yeah. The fish are less relatable. No, I feel a little bummed. I mean, I kill a, I do. Yeah. The fish are less relatable. No, I feel a little bummed. I mean, I kill a ton of grouse. I bow hunt a ton for grouse. And my first few were, yeah.

I don't know if it's remorse. It's definitely a severe appreciation. It's a serious appreciation. I do feel a little weird, though. Yeah, when I touched it and it's still warm, there's a little bit of sadness. Yeah, but dudes eating chicken McNuggets, man, when they bite into that nugget, they're not like

Oh, there's 12 or how many chickens are in one McNugget? 60? By the time they get them all blended together, you're just like Oh, it's dead chickens. Oh, a bunch more died in that nugget. One of the reasons why we start hunting, I always think the dead...

No, I'm saying they don't have to cope with it. They don't need to cope with it. They don still warm. They don't need to cope with it. They don't need to think about it. They're warm in your head. Yeah, those are still warm. I like the term severe appreciation. It's a paradox. The sense of elation outweighs the sense of remorse,

but the sense of remorse is still there. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, Matt. That's kind of where it's at. It's an interesting journey. Ladies and gentlemen, Matt Elliott. That was good. Paradox. So, April,

do you got any final thoughts you want to add in? I don't know. You kind of derailed me. I got off on a bunch of rants. No, no, no, you didn't. You had the one about where you grew up, which was interesting to me because I didn't realize. When I think of BC, I just think they're all

quaint little cute little towns. Yeah, no. No, no. Google, sorry. Google, sorry. But yeah, no, I think the thing for me is if I had to just clarify

in summary, I'd say there's always, every time I teach, I always say two things. Like there's always asterisks beside everything I say and there's always an it depends. Everything has an it depends.

So a lot of the stuff we've spoken, debated about today has been really like fast paced. So I just want to make it very clear that the social media argument, I understand where there's hypocrisy in both sides. I understand where the argument can be debated on all sides. I get it. We haven't had,

we don't have 10 hours to sit here and hash it out, but yeah, I just want to kind of summarize that there are a lot of it depends. I mean, I meant everything I said, but there are some times where it depends. Social media has been great in a lot of ways for our sports. It's been great for awareness

and it's been great for advocacy and for community and all of that. But again, it depends. Yeah, it does depend because nothing really, social media is so big, but then nothing really has, I don't know what it's done. Yeah, when you really dig away at it. When you really stand back and look at, like, hunting in America or wildlife in America, okay, public lands in America, clean air and clean water in America, I can't sit back and go like, man, things sucked.

And then social media came out. And now, man, shit is great. It's different. In any kind of tangible way. Yeah. As far as the bounds within which we're discussing right now. Sure. In any tangible way,

participation, amount of money, amount of extracurricular spending or, or, or non-essential spending that a hunter will do or a fisherman will do for conservation efforts or how clean air and water are. But those are so broad, Steve.

Yeah. Like you're thinking broad. None of this shit, none of this shit has been improved by it. It does not matter. Steve. Yeah. Like you're thinking broad. None of this shit, none of this shit has been improved by it. Right. It does not matter for the real things that matter. Right.

But the small things. It's all bullshit. But the small things. It's all like Marlon Bishop with fly rods. Fuck off. The small things

that make up the broad things that would do, I have found, make a difference. Hey, tell me, just real quick, just real quick,

tell me a thing that you're like, that part of the world sucked and then social media fixed it. I can't do what that part of the world sucked. I can tell you situations where we needed awareness to be able to collect money and support

to be able to fight big corporations in British Columbia. And having the exposure, again, whether it be radio or written articles or social media or podcasts or whatever it may be, the awareness has helped to beat out large corporations because we've been able to accumulate funding to be able to have lawyers. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy that uses it.

Well, that's what I'm saying. Me too. If you want to speak the biggest hypocrite, that's fine. Yeah, but I try to be realistic about what I'm saying. Me too. If you want to speak the biggest hypocrite, that's fine. Yeah, but I try not to... I try to be realistic about... I find your social media educational. And I hope that my social media is inspirational. I just don't find

either of our social media narcissistic. I mean, I know if you go through my phone, you're not going to find a single selfie on it. I just don't do them. There's not going to be an entire feed of me looking hot and smiling in the camera. And I'm certainly not fishing to get photos of looking hot and smiling in the camera. Well, if you want to be a hunting host, yoga pants, selfies is how you do it. Good to know.

Good thing I'm never getting in the hunting industry. If you decide to get into the hunting business, you need to go down and take pictures of yourself exercising and be like, getting ready for bow season. Okay, so I'm going to tell you a secret. That's the female path to success. Now, if I feel like I might look hot in my yoga pants, I might date. No. If you're not catching the sarcasm.

Yeah, no, I caught the sarcasm. But I'm going to be honest with you. What I'm going to say is a big deal. It's a big deal. I have enjoyed bow hunting more than I enjoy fly fishing. Yeah, it's realer. That's huge for me to say that. And I love it so much that when I first got into it,

I loved it so much that it actually really threw me off because it was all I could think about, still all I can think about. And it really scared me that someone was going to try to take it away from me. And that was very strange to be like, well, who's going to take it away from me? And then I had to really look into myself and reflect and go, okay, this is your fear because of phishing. And so I just refused to let anyone take this from me. This is

mine. The industry, neither industry can have it. This is mine. You know what I think you're liking about it? What do you think? You remember earlier I was talking about that, the stripping away of realities? Yeah. I think that what you're liking about it is it's more connected to the reality. It is.

It's all reality. Yeah. It's more connected to that ancient food acquisition technology. Even when the trigger's not pulled, just getting up on that animal, it's only reality. It is only reality. Yeah, there's no game here. It's not a game for me. It's not a game for me. Because you're right. With the marlin, it's only reality. There's no game here. It's not a game for me. It's not a game for me. Because you're right.

With the marlin, it's totally a game. With this hunting thing, it doesn't matter bow, whatever it is, this is not a game. You can't make them into a golf ball. No. Take it really seriously. Matt, what do you think about all that?

I was going to go back to what i was saying about like not liking to necessarily have conversations with people about and i'll tie this in but i actually do like you mean on an airplane talking to the dude actually well so i don't like what talking about what i do for a living but i do like talking about knives i do like talking about bench made and i do like talking fishing and i like talking hunting and i especially like talking hunting with people who either a don't hunt or even b don't agree with hunting because yes because most of the time i feel like i feel like i can champion an argument that will win out over somebody's argument against saying i'm not saying that i'm

like always going to be infallible in that conversation. But you're a pretty non-intimidating guy, too. It's the same thing with Adam. It's a softer approach. I guarantee you, as a nod hunter, if I sat down with you, Steve, and if I sat down with you, I would be much more inclined to listen to what you had to say because you're just a little softer in your approach.

That's the way I feel. Because you are so set in your ways, Steve. You would be intimidating, I think, for a non-hunter in a lot of ways. Set in my ways? Yeah. I change my mind about major shit every day. No, I understand that.

But there's just a different approach. He's a soft guy for the most part. Whether I like Giannis or not, all day I'm like, oh, okay. Not really anymore. Look at how ready turned when he was talking about spying on his wife from the catwalk like that's creepy you know what i mean yeah right no but i think that i think that you're right i think that um i know i enjoy talking to non-hunters too especially because

i love going at it from a softer approach i think think you probably, I'm just assuming that you have a softer approach. I just want people who are thoughtful about hunting and where that practice comes from to be able to champion that conversation as often as possible with people who don't, to change their mind, to have them realize that people are a part of the ecosystem and it's important for us to take upon ourselves that responsibility of being the apex predators and it's good for the wildlife. He does have a soft approach.

I've got to eat my words a bit because I Googled you before I met you and I watched you tell some vegan guy explain your point of view on it and you actually did a fantastic job. I shared it. There I'm talking to someone I don't know.

And I don't know what they know. But if I'm talking to friends of mine, and we're just like, if I'm talking to friends of mine, and we're like dicking around with various ideas, I'm not worried about coddling them into some kind of belief. Right. I'm not like,

you need to be gentle with young Matt here. It's like he knows what he knows. Yeah. If he does something that seems funny, then be honest with me, I think it's funny. I had a great time fishing bass with him. I still think there's a lot of stuff about bass fishing that's really strange.

I will not deny it. But I'm not going to roll up on some dude. I'm not going to pull my boat up next to a bass fisherman and be like, hey, here's what I think is weird about what you're up to over there. It's just not invited. It's just a way different thing. To talk to people you

are friends with and admire, it's just a different... It's not the rhetorical approach I would use if confronted with someone who says, hey man, it's just a different it's not the rhetorical approach I would use if confronted with someone who says I have serious reservations

about hunting and here's what they are how would you handle some guy in the airplane if I had an hour we could mock up a conversation but I wouldn't handle it with him it's just different it's just a different conversation. It's not what we're doing right now.

But you don't enjoy the conversation. That I would. Oh, you do enjoy the conversation. That conversation, because that's not small talk. I don't like small talk. I don't like the kind of thing where you're like, oh, and then we move to, and then I'm like, oh yeah, I got a friend of yours.

That's why you're seeking out the hunter. You like meaningful conversation. But I'm like, oh, yeah, I got a friend of yours out there. That's why you're seeking out the hunter. You like meaningful conversations. But you do like the conversation. If someone says, I see you're reading a hunting magazine, young man, I really just dislike hunting. And I'm not unfamiliar with it. I grew up in a hunting family, and I came to hate hunting. Right.

I'd be like, let me put away my work. Got it. I would love to have a long chat. That's all I was wondering. Got it. Okay, all right. So we're on the same page there. Right. I'd be like, let me put away my work. Got it. I would love to have a long chat. That's all I was wondering. Got it. Okay, all right. So we're on the same page there. Small talk.

Okay. No, that's cool. All right. Or I'm telling someone, well, we have three kids. Oh, my cousin had three kids. Like that, you know? Right. I also don't want people to think that I'm avidly against.

You're creepy. Yeah, no, that's okay. Everybody knows I'm avidly against... That's okay. Everybody knows I'm a creep now. I'm not against retention bass fishing either. As long as they're smaller than 14 inches, you should keep all of them you want. Got it.

They taste great. They do taste good. I think I caught my first smallmouth bass intentionally today. It was always by catch? Mm-hmm. It took a while to get the hook set down, but then you were on them after that. What were you fishing?

You were catching them accidentally. Like, how were you? I don't know. Just here and there. I was probably just floating down some Michigan River with a spinner on way back in the day. Just whatever bites. Just chucking. And all of a sudden there was a fish and I probably wouldn't even go and name it.

But no, that was a lot of fun. But yeah, I was being too gentle with them. We've been fishing all week with just subtle takes on the redfish and I don't know. Besides the sailfish and the wahoo I don't know. We just, besides the sailfish and the, uh, and the Wahoo, those weren't subtle takes, but the, um, I don't know, everything else is real touchy feeling. And I was, you know, Matt's little dinky rods and the, the drop shot and the little bitty worm. I didn't even fish a soft plastic that small. I've always fished like stuff. It's been six,

eight inches long and we're fishing one of those three inch three inch yeah but um yeah i was uh i wasn't giving it to him i really started reeling down getting out of the water and that was getting it done yeah you know nothing better than punching a adoc barbed hook right through the face of some bass with 80 pound test oh my god I'm sorry they're just going to pitch back I taught you a lesson Mr. Fish

I would like a redneck country that's one of the things we didn't get into this but this is going to be my concluding thought that was one of the things I thought was most interesting when you know matt and i for a long time been planning on uh since past bear season we've been planning on bass fishing this weekend he's gonna bring up his big fancy bass boat and i've been very excited to do my bass fishing and then we arranged you know were you able to come talk to us? And it's just a funny thing to think about would be that fly fishing is oftentimes

in the outside eyes oftentimes associated with like a sort of elitism and outdoor elitism. And bass fishing is sort of this like lowly, right? Depending on who you talk to. No, I'm saying the stereotype.

Yeah, yeah, stereotype. A stereotype. There's people that have a stereotype of there's this elitist quality of fly fishing, this holier-than-thou quality of fly fishing. And that same guy doing what he likes to do could also sit and he sees a bass boat and he's going to have this redneck

hillbilly. It's funny because when you look at if a Martian came, a Martian wouldn't pick up on all this. A Martian would be like there's these people who like to go out and catch

these fish. That somehow means a great deal to them to catch these fish and let them go. And I'd imagine they all get along very well. Just the way it's marketed. You guys are just marketed so much differently. It's just a different world. No, it is. It's just like it's fun to go catch fish.

Yeah. And there's different ways of doing it. That's right. Yeah. There's different ways of doing it. And they're really, if you get hung up on the differences, it's because you already know a lot about it. Yeah. You're probably just looking for something to make it more interesting.

Yeah, an outside perspective. It'd be like, this is going to be a matter of who thought. You know, in certain countries, Catholics and Protestants fight a lot. Right. They're not fighting the devil worshipers. If you go like, you're like, ooh, you know who really gets me mad? It's a Protestant, right? It seems like who'd really get me mad would be a devil worshiper,

because that's like the real opposite of Protestant, right? It seems like who would really get me mad would be a devil worshiper because that's like the real opposite of me, right? You tend to kind of, there's like little in, like, people have a better tendency to do a sort of infighting. Yeah, but it doesn't do anyone any good. I mean, that's why I get upset when people hate on bait guys because the people we should be hating on in some situations are, let's say, the government or commercial netting or whatever it is. People are trashing the habitat.

Yeah. And if we actually teamed up with – if the fly guys would just get over themselves and team up with the bait guys and the bait guys would get over themselves and team up with the fly guys, we'd have a much bigger community to actually make a difference. Yeah. You'd start a thing called the Clean Water and Lots of Fish Alliance. Amen. alliance and all these types of fishermen with their idiosyncratic methodologies would join together and fight for clean water and lots of fish.

Inviting is a very dangerous thing. There you go. Matt, you redneck. I'm a red leg. April, you elitist. I love bass fishing. It's super fun. I think you release this too. Missed a little sunscreen. I love bass fishing.

It's super fun. I think you'd have a lot of fun. Yeah, even in a sparkly boat. Yeah. We were catching fish off from under people's apartments. No, being in that boat's half like the fun. I mean, I felt special out there today. I bet you did.

I was on the sparkles and standing on those decks, leaning against the fancy posts, watching Matt up there working the trolling motor. And he didn't really work it, man. We were getting worked over by the wakes. I mean, it was a war zone out there today. It's a boat trap. Yeah, there's a lot of recreation on that lake, man. Unbelievable.

Matt, you need to come to Australia for some Australian bass. It'd be awesome. Yeah, they're fantastic. Highest density in the United States of boats. Seattle. Yeah. We were taking waves, and these boats are built to take rough States of boats We were taking waves and these boats are built to take rough water and we were taking waves over the bow today from boat traffic

while we were on the trolling motor Not even under power It was extreme smallmouth bass fishing Are you prepared to charter a C-130 to get that bass boat over to Australia? I bet we could find somebody that has a bass boat What if I told you that we may have a bass boat? I'm not kidding.

I'm not kidding. We do a lot of bass fishing. Oh, really? Yeah, tons of bass fishing. We'll take you bass fishing. Is that a native bass? Yeah, Australian bass. Really? Yeah. It's really crazy too because they're in the same small rivers as bull sharks. You can't get out. Sometimes we catch bull sharks by accident

when we're bass fishing. Are they more like a peacock bass? Are they flashy or drab? They're pretty drab. I think they look like a largemouth bass. They're incredible. What's a big one look like? How big is a big one? What's this in your guys' system?

That's big. A giant. She's showing us about 24 inches. She's showing us like a queen mother. That's a trophy, trophy, trophy. I'm saying my average probably like this. What's that? Three pounder.

That's pretty average. That sounds good. It's good times. I'll take you up on that. Let me know. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having us on the show. Yanni just pulled up on that. All right. Let me know. All right. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having us on the show. Oh, Yanni just pulled up a picture.

Yeah. He looks like he lived right here quite nicely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I thought I caught something that looked just like... A rock bass. Yeah. It looks like a giant rock bass.

Mm-hmm. And then we have this thing called Murray Cod. You ever seen a Murray Cod? No. I've heard a lot about those from Australians. Can you punch in Murray Cod? Mm-hmm. M-U-R-R-A-Y? Yes, please. You fish for them the same way as you do with bass. So you get in Murray Cod? And you R-A-Y?

Yes, please. You fish for them the same way as you do with bass. So you get all up with your big poppers or whatever it is that you're fishing. And you get right in tight. And I love those little things, those little lures you guys have, but they're like $30 a pop.

They're crazy. But look at how big these things get. They're some walleye-ish. Yeah, yeah. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to duck out and look at online images. Have a good night. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada.

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