The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 108: Broken Bones and Loose Change

Episode Date: March 19, 2018

Sioux Falls, SD- Steven Rinella talks with Russel 'Roof' Wolf, Ronny Boehme, Doug 'Buck Man Juice' Duren, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew.Subjects Discussed: Effin' Ronny; talking about people behind their back; Tom Petty's American Girl; a few broken bones and some loose change; snakes eating their own tail; the problem with corner hopping; the deer baiting conundrum; rescue dogs and playdates; artificial insemination of hunting dogs; a Catholic nun dog breeder; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is a meat-eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwear-less. We hunt the meat-eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwear-less. We hunt the meat-eater podcast. You can't predict anything. Here's something that came up the other day.

Is the machine on? Yeah, we should introduce everyone. We kind of have. Yeah, we got into like... Okay, so Ronald, F. Ronnie Bame. F and Ronnie. F and Ronnie. already yeah we got into like okay so the so ronald f ronnie bame f and ronnie f and ronnie um being in the trades and having employees ronnie's name is usually preceded by f and only by my employees which yeah not clients but by which you and your brothers are several of

my ex-employees and when i worked there I worked there, we would always say, well, hey, Ronnie. I hate this job. That's it, Ronnie. But you never said it to my face. No, I was brought up. I was not brought up that way. I was brought up to talk bad about people behind their backs. That's my Midwest upbringing.

Giannis Poutelis. Gianni, a guy wrote in to say that if you go into, um, some voice thing, some voice recognition thing and say, Janice Poodle-less, it'll say,

did you mean Giannis Putellis? Is that right? Yeah. He thinks you must be famous. I wonder how many times he tried that voice recognition. Yeah. Janice Poodle-less. Now,

yeah, because when I go to have my car call you i have to say call janice putellis and then it pulls you up yeah if i say call yannis doesn't know what i'm talking about doug dern here i am and rufus wolf you got it russell wolf you got it brother rufus roof roof roof like the one on your house uh the one over this hotel in sioux falls south dakota uh doug what we were talking about this year and i made a mistake and man did we get a lot of dudes writing in about um the correction i said that the biggest whitetail ever killed, and I gave the wrong place. Huh.

Do you know the answer? You being a whitetail feller? You know, I don't. I do, but I don't. I can't think of it right now. Is it Milo? Yeah. Pat Durkin drives around.

Do you know that Durkin's truck, do you know that Durkin has decals of the world's biggest whitetails on his truck? Like sticker cutouts. Doesn't everybody in Wisconsin? He keeps it next to his Packers sticker, of course. Arrayed around the Packers sticker are big, giant whitetail bucks. I never made the connection. You don't know about the Milo Hansen bucks?

Actually, I knew about them. Isn't that Ohio? No. Saskatchewan, right? Saskatchewan. I had said that it was shot in Alberta, and this guy says, among several other fellers, says this is incorrect.

The world's largest typical whitetail deer was shot in Saskatchewan by Milo Hansen in 1993, 213 and 5-eighths inches. This guy also goes on to say, like, we get people annoyed all the time because, like, when we'll talk about various calibers, we don't talk about the.308. This guy goes on to say, it's interesting to note that two of the top three world record typical Whitedale deer were taken by 308 Winchesters. And he goes on from there to say, this is why I call my 308 the big giant deer attractor. That's a long name for a caliber.

That was the thing I wanted to bring up. Another correction. Coincidence though, still. I'm going to drop coincidence on that one. You think coincidence? i think coincidence too uh we because because we acknowledge corrections um there's some podcasts if they acknowledge corrections they wouldn't have time for the podcast because there's a lot of new shows, out there. They wouldn't have time for the new show if they had to sit around acknowledging corrections. Oh, yeah. So because we acknowledge corrections, I think that it generates a lot more corrections.

It's like a snake eating its tail. It's catch-22. Yeah. I had said how petty is American Girl. I'm looking at you, Doug. So I know you like, uh, Tom Petty. You're like a music feller.

Yeah. Um, I had said, cause I had always heard that American girl was based on a suicide of a student that, uh, in Gainesville, Florida,

the Gators. I'd always heard that this guy wrote it and said, that's complete horse shit it's not about a girl there was a suicide it's not about that girl um it's urban legend petty talked about it this guy says i'm not trying to rag on you but you ought to know it's more of a composite or something it's just just not. It's like... He wrote a song. I had always heard it was about this girl killing herself. And if you listen to it, you can kind of see. Sure.

She was an American girl. Yeah. And she could hear the cars roll by in old 441. And for one desperate moment, oh God, it's so painful. Right? One could see. I think it was Sammy Hagar that once said that his lyrics are someone will correct me on this i think i'm guessing i think it was sammy hagar correction when he listens to a song and he thinks he knows what they're saying

and later learns that they're saying something else, he just takes what he thought they were saying and makes that his song. That's how he writes songs? Maybe. Yeah, it's a great idea. Yeah, it is. I think there's a U2 song where in it he said, a few broken bones and some loose change, which I thought was like a great title for a book.

That's not what he says. I later looked it up. Huh. And it was? In the Garden of Eden. You know what he's saying? In the Garden of Eden. Yeah, but he's saying? In the Garden of Eden. Yeah, but that's where it became one and the same. Now.

He's just got a blank look on his face. Well, his blank look is not going anywhere soon. Because there's a couple other things like we got into like we just happened to cover some stuff that wound up generating like a lot of clarifications we had talked about the whole all right yanni explain do this yannis i want you to i'm going to test your abilities. Explain corner hopping. Oh, that's easy. Okay. And then while doing it, I invite you to describe it.

Then go into the aerial space discussion? That's where I'm leading with this because we got into like a legality issue, which we can't start. No. We talked about two things in one. You're not off the hook. You're still going to explain corner hopping.

We had a guy write in with a thing where he's saying, and this is something Yanni has done. You're standing on public land and you're looking across an expanse of private land you do not have permission on. And on the other side of that private land is more public land upon which stands one's target being deer or whatever and you shoot and your bullet flies over the dude's land that you don't

have permission on is that legal yanni's actually done this no i was almost almost did it i probably maybe have i don't know um no i don't know and uh that led into a discussion of the problem with corner hopping and yannis will explain corner hopping yeah one minute too we put the airspace question like can your bullet fly across land you don't have permission to be on can your bullet trespass we put the airspace question to a game warden in idaho and said he said in idaho that would be legal but it prompted a lot of listener feedback now yanni will step in and explain corner hopping and how it relates to what we're talking about yeah corner hopping is is in a checkerboarded landscape of where you have different land management and owners and the easiest way to look at that is imagine a checkerboard and all the black pieces are state or public or federal all All the red squares are private.

So every four corners, you have two black and two red touch. Corner hopping would be that if you're on the public, the black, you would just step over and through the airspace and onto the other black, and you get onto another section. No big deal.

Which is fine in the game of checkers. Yeah. No one yells at you in checkers so okay um but i think in most states well i don't know we'll get into it here because i'm gonna get into because it's it's it's tricky yeah and i don't think we're gonna resolve it today i think it's gonna be an ongoing thing we're gonna have some experts on to talk about it there is there is no resolution there's no resolution and which which we'll discuss in a minute so um yeah did i explain it well enough for you yeah yeah so people are basically saying that no you can't corner hop because although you're not touching my land you're going through the airspace above my land

when you corner hop okay joel go ahead doug well i was it was a arborist question let me let me can i stop the arborist question of course oh i already know what it is because i think a dude brought it up a dude that wrote in brought it up the idea that a tree is yeah but hang tight on that because i want to check something all right roof did you follow that oh absolutely really oh yeah for sure great good job and i and i could And I could argue I could go from red to red without infringing on any black space. It's white, isn't it? Well, he used black and red. Oh, really?

Yeah. On a checkerboard? It's black and red. Oh, okay. Chess is normally black and white. All right. Yes. Theoretically, one could step from, okay.

Go ahead, Doug. A tree. So a tree is growing on your property line, and it's on the neighbor's property, but those branches are hanging over onto your land, or onto your, not your land, onto your space, over your driveway, onto your house. Can you cut those branches off?

Oh, yeah, I used to be cut those branches off? Oh, yeah. I used to be an arborist. Well, that's why I knew that. I've been involved. I've been up in the tree as the neighbors argued about it. I've looked down at the tops of the heads of individuals engaged in such argument. With the chainsaw idling?

Oh, speaking of chainsaw idling and yeah oh speaking of chainsaws idling my um i told my kids the story of when your dad chopped himself open with a chainsaw why would you tell your kids that story i don't know why but you know what part they like a lot is the part i like that you told me that that your old man um you know like drives himself to a bar he gets medevaced and later someone goes out to retrieve his stuff this is like an ad for the chainsaw yeah what kind of saw was this a home light 450 yeah later they go out to retrieve his dad's stuff out in the woods where he like. Fingers? No. No, no. He just went out there. Clothes and saw. Yeah.

And the saw is laying there out in the woods. What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what. Still. That's the part that. They love that detail. But I thought when you started to say that, I thought, wow, he's going to teach them the lesson of, of course, they're a little young for it, but of always have your vehicle pointing out because you never know when you're going to need to leave in a hurry. You know, I can't remember how I got into it and they don't have they don't drive yet the oldest being seven yeah but you know with their bikes they could start yeah your scooter

leaving faith now you never know where you're gonna have to leave bedtime steve's checking everyone did you back your bike in all right go downstairs um yeah they like the part that the saw was still out in the woods running and they bring it up all the time huh yeah they like the story about a good saw all right joel webster from trcp we're still on this corner crossing correction it's not a correction clarification he writes in to say in regards to your discussion about corner crossing it it's a legal gray area. The state of Montana's access guide says it is not recommended. It doesn't say that it is illegal.

He's never heard of anyone being cited for it, but they do not recommend it. I emailed some guys who work for the state government of Wyoming, and he goes on to say it is not their 100% definitive either, and there's no specific statute on the book. However, the attorney general in the state's attorney general in 2004 reviewed it and said, you might not be able to do it.

It's as close as they've come. So some legislators, because he's saying that the corner lines are infinitely thin, and there's no way to cross without entering private airspace. Some legislators have attempted to introduce bills directly authorizing corner crossing or others have introduced legislation to specifically prohibit it. Neither gets much attraction with lawmakers. County attorneys rarely, if ever ever try to prosecute for corner crossing unless it's adding to a list of additional offenses to use as a settlement chip he can't this guy can't and this guy's an attorney he can't remember the last time he saw someone

actually convicted of corner crossing that said it's widely understood as impermissible in Wyoming. Not permissible. Not permissible. And he goes on to say how the checkerboard areas have a lot to do with how the railroads were structured and funded. And he says that the inability to jump corners prohibits access to literally hundreds of thousands of acres of public land.

So there's that. Another guy. Ron Bain question. I mean, this happens to bird hunters constantly. Oh, of course. I mean, it doesn't even happen to mountains too much, but we've been doing it forever. Corner crossing. Yeah.

You guys corner hop? Sure. What states have you corner hopped in? South Dakota and North Dakota all the time. But is that private land to private land? Yeah. It's private land to private land, but I don't see the difference. Oh, you mean corner hopping over another dude's private?

Right. That you don't have permission on? Don't have permission. Well, how do you know your boots are the right spot? We just do it well mathematically you you're going to be stepping on somebody's land right right well if you know unless if there happens to be a corner post there and you got a good you got a gps you could do it right but yeah you gotta go up and over you know when we when the farmer gives us like yeah hunt at 80 and then the next one over is mine too. And you can tell. They're butted only on the corners.

They're made by the same fence. You know, yeah, they're butted on the corners. And we don't even go on the corner. We go to the nearest post where it's safe. So we're just, but our intention isn't to hunt on that person's land. Our intention is to get to that next piece of property. Okay. I put it to a guy in idaho fishing game officer in idaho

um idaho code 36-13 1603 known as recreational trespass the key words are no person shall enter the property of another and then there's criminal trespass. And he says that would ultimately, if one were to do this, like you've done it, and the guy that owns the land would get pissed, he says it's probably, if this were to happen in Idaho, it's probably going to come down to the members of a jury. And they haven't had to, no one's got it that far where it's interpreted. So I say it's legal and he says until it's challenged in the case you know it goes to court sure it's uncharted territory wow i'm surprised to hear all this because

like the way you're told you know it and it's spelled out everybody thinks that you cannot do it not recommended but it's not well it sounds thinks that you cannot do it. Not recommended. But it's not. It sounds like it needs to be pushed a little bit. I think that in Wyoming, I think he's saying that. So one of our camera guys heard us talking about this, and he wrote in too. And he got into this thing where,

okay, how much air do you own above your property? And he said in 1946, the Supreme Court acknowledged that the air above your property extends at least up to 83 feet because the Air Force was flying planes buzzing low over a guy's place and scared a bunch of his chickens to death. And he won a lawsuit for them infringing on his thing.

Rick thinks it's more likely to be that you own about 500 feet. The Supreme Court hasn't explicitly accepted that as the upper limit of property ownership, but it's a useful guideline in trespass cases. Which your damn bullet isn't that high. Your bullet's five foot off the ground. Or six feet down.

If you're leaning over the fence. Can you use that person's fence post for a rifle rest? Yeah. So the military was found to be violating a guy's property rights by buzzing aircraft over it. So the fact that you can buzz a bullet over it. In this case, though,

you need to be limiting someone's ability to enjoy their property. And I could see that someone would say, bullets flying around on my property limits my ability to enjoy it. And the fact that they killed his chickens or whatever, too. It's a loss of property. But see, I could tie that into another scattergun thing. You're allowed to hunt the ditches here in South Dakota. Okay.

Because I'm tying this into South Dakota. No, that's great because we're in South Dakota. so it's legal to hunt the ditches in south dakota even if it's private property because because the it's a right away it's a right away they don't mind you shooting that close to the road no isn't there yeah there's rules about unimproved roads yeah unimproved roads not not blacktop dirt road ditches yeah your common road in South Dakota, you know, gravel road. So that's totally legal. I guarantee it. I'm not doubting you.

It just sounds. But now in North Dakota, it's the opposite. North Dakota, you cannot hunt the ditch unless you have permission of the landowner that abuts the ditch. Gotcha. But my point is. State to state difference. State to state difference. But my point is, so when we're ditch hunting pheasants, they come out and they fly.

They don't usually fly right down the road. They fly out into private property. And we will shoot them. And you have to get permission to retrieve... In some states, you have to get permission to retrieve the pheasant. Let's just use pheasant for the analogy. You have to get permission to... Or in some states,

you gotta... You can't have your gun. Yeah, without firearm. Without firearm, you can walk in and get it without permission. But some places, you have to have permission. But what I get in that is the propellant, the bullets, the BBs. They're damn sure going over to God's house.

They're damn sure. That's my point. Thank you. They're landing in his property, not even going over it. You are littering lead into his property. That makes me think it's always legal because your shot is always landing exactly this reminds me of another question a guy just wrote in about but i'm not going to get into that one right now though it is interesting but you're literally has to do a squirrel you're putting lead

into somebody we can't don't tease me like that i want to ask doug i just want to know what you what you're as a substantial landowner, what's your opinion on the corner op? I know because I know your property lines that you don't have that instance, but let's just say that you had locked up 40 acres of Wisconsin state land in the middle, but there was a corner to get in there. Seems fine to me. I'd prefer that somebody came and asked but you know hey is this going to be all right yeah well everyone would prefer that everyone asked everybody

everything right but uh yeah i don't think that's you know i mean if it's state land it's state land you know being the kind of guy i am i'd probably put a little access corridor across my property to it nice little dove climbing just because you're that kind of guy because i'm that kind of guy I am, I'd probably put a little access corridor across my property to it. Nice little dove climbing fence. Just because you're that kind of guy. Because I'm that kind of guy. See, this issue starts- There's people who are going to write in and say, bullshit, I know Doug Duren. Well, this issue really starts to make its own gravy.

Because here's this. A guy writes in from Alaska, and this subject got him thinking. He writes in from Alaska, and he explains that he is moose hunting on the Kenai Peninsula. And he's on just like, let's just say like a general public land. And his back is to a state park. In this state park, most states, you can't hunt state parks but some states there

are some state parks you can't hunt this is a state park in alaska where you can hunt you cannot discharge a firearm on it it just is in the state park it's archery only same regs apply same bag limits and seasons apply just no firearm discharge so you can bow hunt it he's sitting on which is i don't know what it was let's say he's on state forest what is back to state park looking out this way to kill a moose on state forest with his rifle turns around biggest blackberry he's ever seen is 20 yards out of the state park he doesn't shoot because he's like you can't shoot a gun or you can't kill him in there with a gun he comes home and his old man is on his case because he's like you didn't you would not have discharged a firearm in the state park you would have discharged a firearm

in a state forest yeah the bear died in the state park from a firearm wound, a firearm wound, but you didn't discharge your gun there. You should have shot the bear. He says, I've never even bothered to call Alaska Fish and Game because there's no way they'll give me a straight answer.

So I call Alaska Fish and Game. And right away, I make the mistake of saying what I do for a living. So then I had to deal with the public affairs person. And I get to explain it to them the thing, and they refuse.

They're like, who? And I'm like, it's just a guy. What year? Where exactly? But he didn't do it. And I'm like, he didn't do it. He's just a guy. And then I got frustrated and grew frustrated.

And I'm like, hey, let's just say hypothetically. We don't deal in hypothetical laws. I'm like, come on, man.etically we don't deal in hypothetical laws i'm like come on man that's how far i got with that well that's a bummer because they really sometimes try to pride themselves on having it spelled out in the regs so that you don't have hypotheticals all black and white well they said you got to tell me the year in the exact location that's pretty black and white do you but i mean i just feel like it's pot it'd be possible you know sure i could i yeah i would have had to tell him the year in the exact location which i

didn't have from the guy i could have wrote the guy back i'm sure he's listening right now yeah he'd had to provide all that extra detail but it just goes to show but it you might recall this sign that's on uh my friend on the land next to my friend Tyson's property. It says, do not shoot into these woods. And of course, we've now made a sign on the opposite side that says, do not shoot out of those woods. But I wonder about that too. It's the same idea.

It's a private land issue. Okay, one more of these things. One more of these things we got to take care of. The whole thing we're talking about with like, okay, a guy writes in and he says, I live in a state where you can't bait. No salt licks, no mineral licks, nothing. But ranchers put them out for cattle. So can I sit over that?

I didn't put it there. Right? Lots of, it depends. It depends. So lots of people wrote in about this um now this guy points out an interesting thing that just happened in alabama in alabama formerly you could not hunt over bait they clarified loosened this law recently and changed to say say, this is what the law says. There is a rebuttal assumption

that any bait or feed located beyond 100 yards from the hunter and not within the line of sight of the hunter is not a lure. So he says now people have taken to putting a large hay bale 100 yards from their blind and putting bait beyond the large hay bale good god because it's i'm 100 yards away from it can't see and it's out of my line of sight And I'm a pretty good shot up to 150 yards. Yeah. For real.

And I know if the head's sticking out of that one end of the hay bale, and I can just see its tail, I know where those vitals are. Yeah. This guy had gripe. Okay. Hold that guy's gripe for a minute. Hey, folks. Exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And, boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes.

And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season the hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps

that include public and crown land hunting zones, aerial imagery 24k topo maps waypoints and tracking that's right we're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service.

That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. This guy, that led to a conversation about if you're out hunting,

and you, if you're out hunting and you kill a deer, say, and you're in a no-baiting state, you're in a no-bear-baiting state, when you kill a deer and a bear starts eating the deer carcass, is that baiting? I said, no. This guy says, depends where you are. He was hunting, and he's from British Columbia.

They were out hunting moose in northern BC. They had jet boated 120 miles up a river to their moose camp. Their buddies had been in there a week before and they had killed a moose across the river from camp. You could actually see the carcass and gut pile from the camp. These guys had a grizzly tag.

This is before the recent ban on grizz hunting in BC. And halfway through their hunt a British Columbia game warden shows up in a helicopter to check them out. He's checking them out. They explained they had a grizzly tag

and this gentleman informs them that it would be illegal for them to shoot a bear on that kill and it would be regarded as baiting a bear since it was a hunter killed carcass if that moose had died of natural causes it would not be baiting that was the interpretation from the the law or just these guys apparently that's the interpretation of the law a hunter killed carcass is regarded as bait a naturally killed carcass is not.

All right, we put that to bed. Kind of. In Colorado, you're A-okay. In Colorado, you can't bait bears, but you're A-okay if you kill a bear off your own gut pile. This guy, this is the last thing on this issue. This guy had real gripe with how we were saying ranchers use them, use the salt licks.

He said he'd like to point out that oftentimes these salts and minerals are distributed by ranchers in order to keep cattle away from vital riparian areas. And you brought this up. You'd put a salt lick out in order to um congregate animals near fences does this all make sense doug you run a couple cattle yeah i run a few cattle you put salt out for them i put uh white salt and trace mineral salt do you like the salt uh i have it close to the building so uh i don't really get too many deer right down to the buildings but yeah no of course deer like salt but uh um yeah the purpose for doing it is i mean it's a health thing they

one they like salt and then the trace minerals it's well do you place them strategically it doesn't matter in your location you're not dealing with vast acreages and i put them close to a place that i can back the truck up to so i don't have to carry it very far that makes sense they're heavy all right does anybody here know haywood banks the the musician haywood banks i don't if you have young children you should look up haywood banks i don't have young children yeah such hits as um i'm looking at the world through fly's eyes dead puppies aren't much fun which i think you know what i've been saying i think maybe someone else saying dead puppies aren't much fun i was gonna bring it up because yanni ronnie i want to talk about the the dogs the dogs the dogs which you lost i've now lost prized breeding age uh dogs for my kettle brocco italian yeah. Two of them in one felt swoop.

In one felt swoop. Is it best to get into this tragedy? Is it best to approach it through the lens of monetary value or through the lens of emotional value? Both. Let's start with what you want to start with. Emotional. Really?

Yeah. Okay. Emotional value. Lay it out for? Yeah. Okay. Emotional value. Lay it out for me, emotional value. Emotionally. Then we'll talk about the strange circumstances under which these dogs perished. So emotionally, your dogs become part of your family. Just like kids, at some days, you like some of them better than others, but you love them all.

So the loss of the dog is a loss, is a personal loss. So that's the emotional part of it. And the traumatic part of it then is the way in which they die. There's different, like an example. I gave a German short-haired puppy to Rusty, how many years ago? Roof. Roof. How many years ago?

20? How long have you guys been friends? We're still old. Since about 1964. Late 90s. Late 90s. Hold on, hold on. Back up.

You gave him a what? I gave him a short-haired puppy, German short-haired puppy. One he couldn't sell because it had a... But you weren't a breeder then. Not a breeder. You're a recreational breeder. Recreational breeder. A-litter.

And his dog died at age six. What kind of dog was it? Short hair. He brought it up to my place. Dead? No, blind. And we went to the vet. And even though I hadn't, I mean, I saw the dog once a year.

I had to go to the vet with him and we put the dog down. And that was an emotional. So the emotional part of it. Six years old. old yeah 42 in dog years yeah right in the prime that that strikes that strikes close to home how old are you steve that hits home i don't like that one bit so that is sad yeah so i was crying for that dog even so the emotional loss you cried for that dog. Yeah. Tears rolling down your cheeks. My vet tech, she's seen me in there a few times. And when I went in there and I was saying goodbye to her, they were just rolling down my face.

And she'd never seen me cry before bringing dogs in, dead or alive. Roof, answer this as though Ronnie's not in the room. Was it a good bird dog? It didn't get enough formal training early on, but she had a will of unbelievable, but she was not a real graceful hunter. Yeah. So it was like a smart kid that never got to go to school.

Yeah, bingo. Like me. Like Ronnie. Like me. All right. So, right. Right. Yep. All right. So, okay. So there's a six-year-old dog.

Yeah. Goes blind and dies. I'm just telling you, that's the emotional part. The, what was your other question? The financial part of it. Yeah, because these are high-test dogs. Yeah, and nowadays, when you go to Pheasant Fest and walk the floor, which you haven't been today. I haven't been down to the floor.

When you're down there. Yeah. You're going to see a bunch of dog breeds there now i would venture to say they're all within a few hundred dollars of what my dogs cost nowadays but thing was 10 years ago my dogs cost twice as much as them so it's definitely because the rarity the rarity because there's not many it's just like a rare coin you know you can't get much for nickel when they made 50 million nickels in your coin collection yeah but now they're people are the dogs have come up to a different price level so it's just dogs in general dogs dogs in general diani did you look

into that long hair i told you that german long hair i went i looked into it we went and looked at you looked at yeah You looked at. Yeah. Yeah. Bird dogs in general are more expensive now than ever before. And way beyond rates of inflation. Yes. What do you attribute that to? People's emotions and what they want.

Just like we're able to buy bigger houses than we used to be able to. We're able to buy more truck with a longer payment. I think we just McMansion-ish kind of mentality. There's some exposure, better exposure nowadays, though, right? We didn't know anything about hunting dogs when we were hunting back in Illinois. No, and you're right. And people put way more weight on health testing, so people are investing more into their breeding stock than they used to.

So the ceiling has gone up but you can still go out and get all kinds of free dogs at the pound right yeah in fact i'm going to interview a guy who only hunts with dogs he rescues from a pound bird bird dogs beagles dude that word drives me crazy i i know when you were a kid, you went down to the pound and got a dog. Now you go down to the pound and rescue the dog. Like he was in the middle of a lake and you had to give him a life preserver. Mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. I don't know why.

It's like such an old man-y thing where there's certain words that come out. You're getting to be an old man-y. Yeah, well, okay. You used to go over to your buddy's house. Now you have a play date. It's like, I don't know why it bugs me. And it used to be like, oh, you know, Stevie got a new, or Bobby got a new dog. Where'd he get it?

I don't know. They went down to the pound and got a dog. It's like, oh, I rescued this dog. It's like you come in and they got a pistol in the dog's head. And you tackle the guy with a pistol. And you threw yourself in front of it. Yeah, rescue dogs. I need a decision now.

Right now, are you taking the dog or not the trap door is released and the noose comes tight now a rescue would be a bunch of dogs that were going to be put down and you break in the night before yeah i'd be like that's a no joke i i rescued this dog he was he was right outside the gas chamber they were backing up the gurneys out there yeah the crematorium fired up what's sad is i just used that word rescue and i never used to use that word rescue because it's just like i use playdate now i just gave in and i just now i'm like oh so you know rosemary is having a play date. It's machine learning. Oh, man. All right. So anyways, the ceiling, the limit that people are comfortable paying for a dog, you have seen go up during your time as a dog trainer and dog breeder. To even a breed that maybe have, let's say, a particular breed that I judge, that I see a lot of, German Shorthairs.

You could find one in almost every town in the United States over X amount of population. A breeder. A breeder. Even those dogs that you can find without traveling to Europe or all the way across the country, those people have raised the bar and they're breeding, they're health testing, their selection of who they're going to breed. And they're like, my dogs are worth that too. And once you can't find a $500 short hair, you're going to pay $1,500 for a short hair. So that's what a run-of-the-mill, decent, pedigreed short hair goes for.

I would say $1,500, a good one. So you started years ago, we've talked about this before, you started to traffic in Italian Bracos. Braco Italianos. And you breed them. And the bitch will put off up to usually

10 to 12 puppies. Is that what you're getting at? And then you sell these puppies. And you usually sell them before they're born. Or is that not true? About half are pre-sold. Like people pay deposits on them well yeah they either pay deposit or i keep an email from them or but

they're almost always sold before the time they're 10 weeks i'm certain it was not hayward banks who song dead puppies i'm much fun the more i think i'm gonna have now i'm gonna look at it no i got it for you right here i didn't get too deep into it, but it looks like there's a band called Dr. Demento that sang it, but then also Ogden Edsel. Yeah, I don't know those guys. It's a good song. So people write in and say, I want one, but you never know how many you're going to have anyways, right?

Right. So that's why you can't close the deal. Yeah, you can't. You just got to wait. And how many, in a dog that you've owned, how many puppies have you been able to sell off a single dog? Probably, if I'd be accurate, I'm going to say 38 or 40 out of one female. So one female can kick out $50,000 worth of puppies.

Yes, yes. I'm just getting to the monetary value. Right. Actually, a little more than that because if you take the number 40, 40 puppies times 2,000, that's 80,000. Oh, so they're more valuable.

I mean, a fella could get $2,000 for a Braco Italiano. Hey, sorry. So we don't have to deal with a correction later. The band name. I've left it open enough where there's no room for connection. The band name is Ogden Edsel. Bill Frenzer was a part of the band.

Dr. Demento was a show that was played on often. There's also Keith Johnson and Bill Carey were in the band, Ogden Edsel. Thanks, Yanni. You're welcome. Yeah, it goes, dead puppies aren't much fun. And that's true. Your kids are going to sing that song. That is true.

Okay, so that's the monetary. So now tell the story of what happened. I just wanted to establish the emotional and financial. Right, and it was. You cannot help but think that, oh my God, I would have bred that dog two more times and if anybody's you'll hear breeders say this and they can all send me the hate mail you shouldn't be breeding for money well you shouldn't be you shouldn't be breeding to lose money you know i mean you know why would you set yourself

up unless you're like as you call pro bono? I'm not a pro bono breeder. And the dog, it's not that the dog's particularly, it's not like a foregone conclusion that that type of dog is any better at hunting than any other type of dog. Absolutely not. There's a certain amount of aesthetics. It's a look and it's a demeanor that they happen to have.

But I could find you that demeanor in almost every other breed. Gotcha. Just have to find the right breed. So you kind of fall in love with sort of like, just like the groove of the dog. Yeah, exactly. Do you guys use that term? No.

Just the general vibe. The groove of the dog. The general vibe of the dog. How it kind of just relates to people. From the couch to the field, right? It's like field to table, couch to field. You're tired. So you fell in love with this kind of dog.

Right, right. And I've lost a lot of dogs over the years. And back when I was in my 30s and 40s i don't know i don't remember really crying over it you know it's as i got older and become a father and gonna be a grandfather soon i'm turning into a big blubbering baby when it comes to losing yeah you become in tune i don't put them up on facebook when they die or anything that's my you know a lot of people do that yet no never because you mean you don't want to like solicit i don't want to solicit people find out later yeah i don't i don't but anyway talking about what happened to the dog so i went down who were the two who were the two it was oscar and

katie and tell what their background was uh oscar was a two-year-old male who won uh was just starting to get his wings in the field as far as being a good bird dog and he had also his confirmation his build his his whole body was like let's say like a bodybuilder like if you had a bodybuilding contest a confirmation contest is a a bodybuilding contest for dogs the judge walks up and says nice muscles nice back legs nice straight he's not bow-legged like me you know the dog gates across to so like a pug isn't going to do well on this against other pugs not against the threat so he had on top of in his case being a male he had a monetary value down the future of people would want to breed to him because you don't want to lose the breed and body type. He had a classic.

Gotcha. He's going to throw a dog that looks like a Braco Italian. Exactly. Yeah. Question. So is his value similar to that of the female because of his, I mean, in terms of the number of. No, because I probably could never get 40 breedings out of him.

Why not? I mean, because you don't want to... Just logistically. Logistically, and you don't want, in a small breed, you don't want the sire to be the same in 15 different states because now you're losing out on breeding ability. Then you're breeding daughters to fathers. Okay.

So can I ask you one other thing so is that then why you were saying i mean if i did the math they're having eight to ten so you're really only breeding that female four times four times three three to four times but she's living to be 14 or 15 14 so you stop out of sympathy to the dog you stop out of like mostly by the time they're eight most people will never breed a dog because it's too hard on them too hard just like a woman i you know you're gonna get higher instance of down syndrome and a mother over 40 yeah then you will a woman in her 20s same thing with puppies arty's last litter we thought we were going to lose three and we had to do a cesarean

she couldn't deliver the last three and how old that dog? She was seven and a half when she had the litter. Do they do AI on dogs or do you ship the dog over there? You want me to tell that story? Sure. Oh, yeah. This one might take a minute. First time a lady wanted to breed to another dog I had, which was Oscar's relation.

So your client. A lady in California saw my dog, saw pictures of it, and then looked at the pet and says, I got a breed of your dog. I want your dog's lines and my female's loins. And she goes, have you ever been to a reproduction clinic? I'm like, no. And so she's Googling all this. I'm at work in Virginia in the Valley.

And she writes me back. She goes, there's a clinic two hours away from you. Blah, blah, blah. I said, okay. I need you to be there Tuesday for a collection because she's monitoring the progesterone numbers on her female. So she knows that first overnight frozen

or chilled semen has got to leave on Tuesday. So- When the female is going to be ripe. She'll be ripe and she'll be ripe for so many days, and we'll have to do this a couple times. So you cover a span. Anyway, so I have never, Doug, you might be able to speak to this. I didn't know how they collect. It's no strange to do a little AI.

That's for sure. I did not know how they extract the semen out of an animal. I'd never seen it done never asked and you're picturing a needle a needle or some kind of a catheter like you know running up the the sheath and why not have a little fun so that's what ronnie commenced to do so and you know me i'm not short on flirtation or anything else, right? And I'm not a quiet guy. I walk in with my dog.

She says, follow me, this very tall, good-looking brunette vet with a Russian accent, which I happen to really love a Russian accent. Okay. She says, come fit me. Come fit me here. No, you, I hand her the dog. She says, no, no, you come with. They're better with you with...

This is a Russian accent. Yeah, that's the best I can do for a female Russian accent. It's just... That's the worst Russian accent I've ever heard. Maybe if he said Soviet block, it'd give us a little more wiggle room. He's like, you know one of them accents... Like Colonel Klinkhead? Likeer kempler and hogan's heroes that's what i'm trying to do that was a german uh yeah well eastern block or you know

so so those areas that got wrapped up in world war ii somehow smart kid who didn't get to go to school right here or or acting school so she comes and comes and come come come come and and honest to god she was on a scale of 10 she was an easy eight beautiful woman okay about 40 years old okay and she has me she goes you hold the dog's collar so i'm standing to the side of the dog and she calls for the vet tech to come in with this happened to be a golden retriever that was in heat so they back the golden retriever in tail you know butt to nose and of course the male's like whoa you know he starts sniffing his tail starts wagging and he starts getting a little excited which all male dogs will do and and she proceeds to straddle over my dog and she's stroking his back. Oh,

that's a good boy. Oh, that's a good boy. And she proceeds to give him a reach around like a wrestling move under, under his groin. And for the life of me, I didn't really believe what she was doing. She was getting him,

exciting him, exciting him. And then she reaches over for this baggie this long triangular bag about 18 inches long okay and she puts that in her other hand and now she's doing she's she's milking the dog she's milking the dog and she's milking the pooch but her talking she was that's a good boy good boy oh yeah i'm tracking i am standing i am standing you found this you found this to be no i lost you found to be slightly erotic no it was only when she introduced herself that i get a little like oh she's cute okay all right So you walk in and initially.

I think I'm going to hand the dog. Initially, like, you know, I'm a married man, but I can acknowledge that. Beautiful woman. Yeah. Yeah. You know, smart, beautiful woman. The rest of it's just. I'm aware of this.

And you're saying that that didn't, that that, those feelings didn't escalate with the milking. No, no, they didn't escalate. They killed it for you. They killed it. I'm glad to hear this i could not i you know i've always gotten a little excited during that telling roof made me tell the story last night to get in the motel room i don't understand that at all right before you went to bed did you say anything like um wow uh you know how do you feel about that process

tongue-tied totally i would have been i'd love to have a camera on you during that process i was like i mean i wanted to be like the smart alec like a comedian and go like next you know but that's called harass that's called sexual harassment but mean, I couldn't even think of the funny things I wanted to think about. I was totally embarrassed. It'd be like walking in on Sue giving the kids a sex talk when they were going. I'd be like, this isn't comfortable.

That was totally uncomfortable. You were uncomfortable watching your dog. Yeah, so that was your answer to AI. Yes, I'm familiar with AI. And Doug, do you do that to a cow? Not you personally. But the AI part hasn't happened yet. The AI part, just so folks know.

Right, right. Artificial insemination. This is the collection process. Yeah, they then mail it off, and then she takes a turkey baster. Or the contraption. Several ways. Yeah. And you put in the dog and breed the dog.

I'm surprised that it has to be so fresh because with cattle, frozen semen, they freeze semen. You can use a bull that's been dead for years. Well, we do. I had him collected, dropped him off at a collection because he was such a good dog, good example of the breed. Up in Columbus, he's still frozen in some straws to this day but i didn't have anything in a hurry she's in a hurry because she's got her dog coming right and with dogs i

see because i don't because it's we're looking for multiple puppies i what do you get two calves or one only with usually one sometimes two so dogs, the more counts per million of live protozoa, spermazoid, or whatever the word is. So you want it frozen will work, and you'll usually get a smaller litter, typically. Is that right? It's not a rule, but typically. And so fresh chilled.

You're sure of this? Yeah. Fresh chilled is the next best thing to. Homemade. Homemade, yeah. Homegrown, yeah. of this yeah fresh chilled is the next best thing to homemade homemade yeah homegrown yeah um did how much did you get for that when you did that standard is the price of a puppy at that point it was 2500 really yeah and and then the dog starts like going to the vet too i mean literally you bring them into it just check this out you. Just check this out about Ronnie's dogs. The other day, I called Ronnie on the phone.

We're talking on the phone. And the dogs are going ape shit. His dogs barking and squealing. His dogs have figured out that when he's on the phone, like he'll be on the phone and they'll make noise. And he'll be like, ah, and let them all out because they're making noise. Now, when he gets on the phone, they just make noise.

They just make noise. Because they know that he'll boot them out for making noise when he gets on the phone they just make noise they just make noise because they know that he'll boot him out right for making noise when he's on the phone but i could be on my computer forever listen to youtube or whatever they don't say nothing they lay there a minute i'm on that phone they're like i got a biscuit or a bone or i get to go out i'm uh i'm interested about the golden retriever and the collection uh facility well no because obviously they must they they just have a rotating stock of females. Yes. A good vet clinic that is specialized in artificial AI or even people actually bring their two dogs to a vet to let them do it because they're afraid of the process.

But they are. But so those clinics are so big that there's almost always a dog coming in for a progesterone test. And on one occasion, I had cotton balls at a place. They did not have a bitch in heat. They call her teaser bitch. There was no teaser bitch.

So they had cotton balls that they continually dab on the female's back end, and then they keep them in a jar. Oh. It's like using dough and rub. That's exactly what it is. Is bitch still widely acceptable in the dog world? Yeah.

If I were to walk up to, which I did yesterday, I would say, that's a nice-looking bitch. Is that right? You definitely use the word bitch. Yeah. You don't say dog. You say bitch or that's a good looking guy. And anyone. I don't know anybody would skip on saying that.

Imagine that there was a nun. And the male is called the sire? Sire. You can call them the boy, the guy. Imagine there was a nun. A nun dog breeder. Oh, a nun. Like a Catholic nun dog breeder. Oh, a nun. Like a Catholic nun dog breeder.

Would she say, my bitch, I'm going to, did you go to any Catholic school? I got an aunt that's a Catholic nun. She's a dog breeder? Do you think she would have said, do you think she has time for a call? Do you have an aunt who's a nun? Yeah. A couple uncles that were priests, aunt that's a nun. Would she use bitch or a synonym?

Synonym. So it's not. Totally. So anyways, I want to go back to the backup plan when you don't have a dog in heat with those cotton balls. There might be a whole opportunity for a line of britney magazines or something for them dogs yeah i was gonna point that out because guys i've talked to yeah guys i've talked to who have to go in and do uh guys i talked to have to go in and do a sample hopefully they're not bringing in a lab at the wharf no they're not but they go they go into

a room with magazines then you gotta then you come out and you're like out back out in the clinic and i've had a number of friends say it's just always so awkward because everyone that works there knows you've been in there thumbing through some magazine. With one hand? Yeah. You got to come out and be like, I got what you need right here.

I had to do that. After getting a vasectomy, I had to bring in a number of samples. At least you go back home. When you come back in, when you come back in, you can sort of have the aura about you as though you had assistance with this collecting. No one knows how you worked it up, right?

You can kind of maintain some self-composure and be like, oh, yeah, buddy. Don't you worry about how I worked up these samples. Steve, I got to digress back to Doug because I want to know how they do it with a bull. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join our northern brothers

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OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. How'd they massage? We never had bulls that we collected from when we had dairy cattle we had a Holstein bull for a while okay

and then he just did it on his own right and his but they do father ended up being deadly so we got rid of him Bull semen's a big thing

right it's collected so how did they do it I've only been to a facility once and that was when I was in high school and which

is the wrong place to take a bunch of high school boys but so they actually had steers that they did the same thing with. They were rubbing. Yeah, they're in heat. Rubbing what?

Well, they were rubbing estrogen from a cow that's in heat on because I turned them to arouse them. And then they're the. Well, you said steer. You meant bull. No, the steer. They don't use a cow. So they rub the stuff on the back of meant bull no the steer they don't use a cow so they rub the stuff on the back of a steer oh they make oh really oh come on that's what they

do to that poor thing well and i don't know why you didn't want a cow maybe because then they don't have to have cows around to milk and so they would take a steer and rub the smell of a ripe cow. Yeah. And then it's a collection thing like that, except for they're not. And you would smell it and be like, man, I'm seeing one thing and smelling another. That's right. They must not be that hard to pull. They're seeing it from the back end. Yeah, right.

Because remember the story we heard when we were in Wyoming, trapping beavers? No. About how the neighbor had lost a bunch of steersers because they'd like it was like an overdose or too much of that uh implant drug that they had given it and a bunch of those steers were getting like way too much testosterone and for the steers that were getting that first the steers that weren't as like getting the testosterone the the testosterone jacked up ones were chasing all the other ones around and basically killing them, riding them so much that they were killing these steers

that hadn't gotten the equal amount of drugs. It's like wrestlers. Like just dry humping them to death. Yeah, like wrestlers. Dude, that's, yeah, I got some friends that are wrestlers, and man, they still like to wrestle. Yeah, wrestlers like to wrestle. So. I didn't wrestle in high school.

I'm ready to move on to something else. I wish we had more time to talk about that. I want to throw in one thing real quick. And you, Ronnie, don't even discuss it. I'm going to tell us a thing about to date. This will help date Ronnie. When Ronnie was a kid. I know where this is going.

When Ronnie was a kid in Chicago public schools, when you took swim class, all the boys would have to strip down and swim naked at school. That's true. Okay. He never told you the coach also did right okay so oscar we thought that was odd yes um oscar and katie okay oscar and katie so there you are so oscar is a up-and-coming stud and katie is a one-time bred female one one litter of pups yeah had a litter eight pups so she had a good size litter so two dogs whose future is ahead of them future's ahead of them

financial future emotional future everything yeah everything's looking good everything's looking like there you are you're driving to i was in indiana in a state park the state park was not open per se for vehicle traffic. But this particular- Explain per se. Well, there was no guard. You didn't need a State Park pass to get into it. Because it was off season.

It was off season. I see. But this part of the state, for some reason, has an old hotel on the property, and they use it like a B&B. So- Okay. And it happens to be in a State Park. But it's not all set up for summer activities.

It's set up year round for staying there. You know, people can walk the trails and stuff. So there's not all set up for summer activities. It's set up year-round for staying there. People can walk the trails and stuff. So there's really nobody there, basically. And it's gated or not gated? Just the front stone gate. It's not gated. Anyway, I get there. I check in the motel.

There's no dogs allowed in the room. Oh, you're actually staying in the place. I'm staying there. What state is this in again? Indiana. Okay. Indiana. And you're traveling.

I'm going to be working with dogs and doing some interviews five miles away the next two days. Okay. Indiana. And you're traveling. I'm going to be working with dogs and doing some interviews five miles away the next two days. Okay. At a training clinic. And so there's nothing out in these woods. I check into the room. I already know the dogs aren't allowed in. And my dogs, you know the box they travel in, big three-door box. I asked, I said, where's the best spot for me to let my dogs air

out feed them and air out air out is their term for make you know no shit take a crap well you just made a symbol that i associate you never heard this it's from the goldbergs she goes did you make this morning she asked the the kids. Like, mom! So if you're using two fingers... So Ronnie's making a cup. Ronnie's making a cup with one hand and taking two fingers and moving them in and out of the cup, which I interpreted

to be more related to what we were talking about a minute ago. You're saying if it's two fingers, it becomes going number two. It was a way for a mom to not ask you in public, do you have to go to the bathroom? Did you make? I would rather my mom.

I would rather my mom. Let's leave the Goldbergs on it. Hey, kid. I would rather than someone going like, that little boy's mom keeps making the universal, the universally accepted symbol for something else else so air out air out air out and she said yeah i would just take the trail right around the back of the building go down to the reservoir and let the dogs do whatever they do so i get there a friend of mine joins me

without dogs i've got four dogs you're just running them around. Well, first I feed them. And so my older dog, he rides shotgun in the back seat. The other dogs each got their own compartment. Okay, backwards, I missed something. Yeah. You're traveling with four or two? Four dogs. I got four dogs with me. That you own?

That I own, yeah. Okay, because I want to keep, in this story, there's a part I still don't understand. I want to know how the four dogs had very different outcomes. Yeah. Okay. Because I want to keep, in this story, there's a part I still don't understand. I want to know how the four dogs had very different outcomes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're all together. It was really easy to explain in hindsight.

In hindsight. Okay. So they all feed and they feed in their boxes or, you know, so they don't fight over food. Make sure they got- Just give them a bowl of dog food in their box. In their box. And you make sure they finish eating, put the food away. My youngest dog that I still have, Miller, he... Is that named after the beer?

Yeah. Okay. I actually got the dog back from a lady who named it after the beer because she knew I drank Miller Lite. So I got this dog. He is at the point where he doesn't know his name. Like to call him off of something or if he starts running i he would literally ignore me his obedience training wasn't there and that was

too young or he's no good no too young and he wasn't worked with when this person had the dog and that was one of the reasons he was going as an example dog about training a dog with that age with almost no obedience you know just a little crazy dog. You were bringing him to show him as a bad example of a dog. Exactly. We do that in dog things. You want to show the good performance. You want to show the bad and the things in between.

And then people can relate to it. Like, yeah, my dog will stay that long. Yeah, I don't know. That's great. Rather than just showing him like the world's greatest dog. Then you learn nothing. So then I had my senior dog, Bravo, who knows all of his commands. So every time he was out, I just let him outside the truck and I'd say,

Bravo, come back. Bravo. Miller wanted to run with the other two dogs, the three-year-olds, but I didn't want him to. So I kept him on a 30-foot check cord wrapped around my waist. He could run around. I could drink a beer. I'm talking with my buddy, Garyary we're having a good time so four dogs one on a leash one super obedient

yep and two are up-and-comers who take off yep and i can see them the entire time like they run down to the reservoir they run back up a hill they're not out chasing deer or anything they're within a hundred yards of me at all times i could because i can see them there's no leaves on the trees the topography was such that i'm looking down at the reservoir there was an old abandoned camp building there that they use for storage to my knowledge the doors were all locked and everything and so and i did see the dogs go down the reservoir and get a drink they came back wet so i knew that's what they did okay um so fast forward get the dogs back. You give them each water again to help digest their food,

their meal overnight, and you put them in their boxes. And so that was about 9, 10 o'clock at night, 9.30 at night. I closed the tailgate. Went to the parking area, sat and talked with Gary for a little bit. You could hear the dogs rustling around in their boxes. So everything seemed normal like every time i've ever had the dogs out and it's six or five thirty in the morning we got up went to go air the dogs out and i opened the tailgate and i can hear miller on the right scratching to get out so you're immediately you've and you never go to your box like oh boy hope it's you know it's alive you no more than you walk in this room and don't expect to see

one good bed and towels you know it's that same assumption yeah so he's scratching to get out because he's that little crazy guy that doesn't have any obedience the other ones have been in boxes so long they just wait they don't scratch at the door yeah they're gonna get out at the same time no matter what they know the deal and i open the middle door and i see katie her head pressed up against the wall and i immediately know she's dead i mean there's just really i mean you could just say your eye was half open you know or you know you well you know like even when an animal dies it never looks like it does when it's bedded yeah when it just kind of smashed. Yeah.

And I was like, I was like, oh my God. And I, I touched her and she was already like rock hard with rigor mortis. And I'm like, oh shit. And I can hear him scratch and I opened the other door and there's Oscar,

same way. He's just curled up. Dead. Just dead. And I reached in and, and I mean, rigor, I don't know how long you guys talked about that.

How long does rigor take? A couple hours, two, three hours to get really. Oh, to set up. To set up really hard. Yeah, I'd say. So when I told my vet all this, she said that they probably died somewhere around one or two in the morning. They would not be that, rigor moris would not be so hard that i could not bend their legs back out to it would have been a futile attempt to see what happened to them but

they were that stiff you know so then the the whole thing went to where i had to bring them i actually put bags of ice on one of them in case it got warm on the way home and i was told to do that just because you know things, things, you know, like any animal, they get hot from dying, and you want to keep them cold. So are you initially getting, are you initially, like, emotional, or are they kind of, like, in shock? It took me an hour to even close the tailgate. Me and Gary sit there and cried and kept saying WTF, WTF, WTF, WTF.

Thinking someone killed them. Thinking someone popped something into each one of their holes. You know, they could have reached in and gone through the sliding window. And then I kept thinking they suffocated. They suffocated. They can't suffocate.

They sleep in these things all the time. Can't suffocate it. But they're not, they're like, they're full of holes and... Right, exactly. But my brain says they suffocated. Trying to figure it out. Trying to figure it out.

Yeah, because nothing else makes sense. Yeah, exactly. But my brain says they suffocated. Trying to figure it out. Trying to figure it out. Because nothing else makes sense. Yeah, their two sliding windows happened to be closed, and Miller's was slid open. So then I'm like, they suffocated. Anyway, so called my vet. They did an autopsy on one of them. There was no point to do both. They obviously got into something.

And I gave you that text earlier. They found three chemical compounds that suggest exposure to alcohol, whatever that alcohol would be. It wasn't Miller Lite. I know that for a fact because they drink that. When I drop a can, they all lick it all up. It was not antifreeze because it takes days for a dog to die from antifreeze. They don't die like that. So it was something that it got to their liver and they bled out internally

and it's never been determined what that substance was i don't know if it's something that's naturally occurring fermented somebody left out a pail of something they cleaned from a campground i just i'll never know and did you look around where they had been? No, I wish I would have because the whole thing was like, I had to get to this clinic, tell them what happened, tell them goodbye, I got to get back to Michigan. And I was so like out of, in shock, I just never, never. Could the grounds have been baiting for rodents or anything?

The state called me several times, the state biologist, state veterinarian, Michigan state veterinarians talked to them. I asked, there's a product people use for killing raccoons and possums that would kill a dog that fast. But those things are always almost identifiable in their stomach contents. So yeah, we won't know.

But word to everybody, you never never know don't let your kids play in junkyards but you don't keep your dogs close you don't feel that like based on what you've seen dogs do you don't feel that they would drink um bourbon no no i've seen dogs around people drinking brown water never seen a dog lap it up although i have had friends say oh yeah my dog will lick my my glass of bourbon with you know but not keel over dead from it no no no you you'd i would you'd have to drink a lot i would think and the the vet or the lab interpreted for you that this is an alcohol and when you look it up it's just everywhere it's like the kind of alcohol it's found on everything those three things that were identified in the liver biopsy or whatever it was

and all it says is suggest exposure to alcohol you know there's isopropyl alcohol there's jack daniels there's antifreezes and now anything that doesn't freeze is an alcohol so could it have been an old can of windshield wiper fluid? Nah, it split up. It's not true that anything that doesn't freeze is an alcohol. Okay, that's not accurate, is it? An alcohol freezes. At some temperature.

Yeah. I was talking to Sarah today. We used to have Boone's Farm. We'd take Boone's Farm ice fishing, and the boones would freeze except the syrup would rise up to the top. The booze and the sugar would rise to the top, and then you could have like a slushy. Yeah, ice ice fishing slushy so so yeah that's the that's that's how what happened and you never went back to go look around no no it was a six hour drive and it was like i'm not going to change the outcome of the day and you're not going to run your dogs there again i'm not going to run

my dogs there again and if you know in a conspiracy world if the state was using some bait to take care of mice and squirrels and i don't think they were going to leave it lay around because they already knew what happened yeah that's a conspiracy part of me you know i don't think my walk around would have produced anything on the other hand it could have produced an old cook pot that had acorns fermenting in it i don't you know. Fruit. Yeah, turned into fruit. Apples. A whole bushel of apples in a steel bucket. Who knows?

It could have been something like that. But there wasn't anything like, and this is a common, they said it was common in a whole bunch of different things, but not in particular in some kind of bait or anything like that. It wasn't anything identifiable on the market. The interesting part is that the two dogs that stayed close lived and the two dogs that ran around died yeah kind of creepy almost a little bit makes you want to make you want to just well i think that's why you know it's like

houndsmen they're kind of used to losing their dogs yeah it's like that's you you buy into that but your bird hunter and your pet owner you don't buy into that you barely buy into the fact that you're going to outlive your dog people can't even handle that a houndsman is like they might they might cry when the dog dies but they go into it you mean losing them to bears and pigs and lions cliffs yeah yeah yeah yeah so yeah that's that's what happened that's all we know on that and do you insure your dogs no never have yeah i'm sure that's something that's available i probably could so how much of a setback was it how much like like as a breeder how much of a setback was it

well i need like hunting wise and breeding wise hunting wise i i'd be a little low on dog power and breeding wise i had another female that was a year old last year so she could have been the next one um and she just died of kidney failure right before christmas so a year and five months old or something like that 10 10 what? 10. Dog years, 10 years old. 10 years old, yeah. Yeah, true tragedy. Oh, man. Yeah, so I'm set way back. I won't have a, although I did drive all the way to Waycross, Georgia to pick up a puppy that was seven months old.

So you actually now have to go buy dogs. Yeah. You can't make them out of boys. And Artie's too old to breed. She'd still be willing, but I wouldn't. So like dancing Duke Kennels is like out of business. It's just Duke kennels. There ain't no dancing for a while.

Crying Duke kennels. That's it. Yeah, dancing Duke, man. No shit. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've kind of like known this, but to hear the whole thing. Yeah, we don't get time to chit chat but ron when we're out hunting those dogs are hundreds of yards away from us at times right

yeah whatever that that's the one thing i would love to know what that dog got into i would love to be able to write something up and let the rest of the world know like boy don't think you're safe even with this yeah but what is it? It's one of those things. And you're the last guy in the world to submit to irrational paranoia. Right. Paranoia. Am I saying that right? Paranoia?

Yeah. Because there's no lesson. Don't let your dogs run around 100 yards away from you. Right, right, right. Stuff happens. It's no lesson. Don't let your dogs run around 100 yards away from you. Right, right, right. Stuff happens. It's a lesson. It's just like I asked Yanni last night about you guys and bears. That'd be like you guys never going into the woods again.

So there's a lesson learned, but what's the lesson? It's only a lesson on that property. I'm going to let my dogs go hunt. But when we're corner hopping, you have a farmer that will have a rock pile on his corner because he's getting everything out of his field, old tractor, and who knows what you start coming across. Corner hopping can get you in trouble. Have you lost a dog to a rattlesnake yet?

No. In fact, I don't know anybody who has but i know i've heard of people who have yeah i guess it's got to hit them in they hit all the time i guess it's got to hit them in the throat or mouth if it's gonna kill them i don't think in the sebaceous tissue or something i don't think it does much to them saw a porcupine attack one time when it went around these dogs well the dog that didn't kill it either though no the dog attacked the porcupine yeah man it was gnarly yeah you put that picture in your book. Dude, it was amazing.

That dog had porcupine quills from its nostrils to its testicles. Oh, he just full wrapped this thing, man. Wrapped around. His mouth. Continued to hunt that day. You know what? We'll put the pictures of your dog up on the show notes. The porcupine dog on the show notes.

Yeah, Zeno and Hope. But Zeno got the brunt of it. I don't know if I mentioned this before. I think I have, but we were out hunting one time in Poudre. I can't remember if it was me or Poudre, but one of us filled a doe tag, and the deer had obviously run over a porcupine. Really? Well, that's the only way I can explain it because her whole underside was full of quills wow so in my mind she's hauling ass through the woods trip and there's a porcupine he's like and puts his tail up

really right oh i mean yeah i mean how else would you like fight it? She's not, she wasn't like attacking her nose. Yeah. So that's true. And her, it was so infected. Just, it was just full of infections and pus and stuff up and down her belly. We were hunting sheep one time,

hunting doll sheep, my brother's old girlfriend. And it was like, I was kind of, I think he was walking point and she was right behind him. Or however, I can't remember how we were configured going up through these alders. And all of a sudden she comes rolling down the hill screaming bloody murder. And she had walked under a porcupine.

And he had smacked her right where her shoulder met her neck. Really? Yeah. Put maybe 13, I think it was 13 quills or something right where her shoulder met her neck you know when you said attack when you said attack i didn't but you're right they will use their tail in defense i forgot about yeah what they don't do yeah which cartoons will lead you to believe is that they can launch quills like a english army of arrows yeah but it's like it's smart that kind of myth it's like i guess with kids and but it's smart. That kind of myth, it's like, I guess with kids and stuff,

it's smart to allow them to believe that that's true. Not a bad thing. Because all stoves are hot. Yeah. But I don't think that most people are never corrected about the porcupine myth. No, I would tell them when they were 12 or so, I would say, you know, to be honest with you, that thing can't shoot its quills.

It's a rite of passage. You got to sit them down and say, hey, just so you know, there's no Easter Bunny and that porcupine does not launch quills. This means number two. This means number two. This means porcupines cannot shoot quills. Man, where do we go from there? This is a depressing story. Pine's cannot shoot quills. Man. Where do we go from there? It's a depressing story.

Oscar, the saga of Oscar and Katie. We're still waiting to, we're still hoping to find out, but obviously we won't. Maybe somebody else will hear this. I'm surprised you're not more obsessed with learning the truth. I don't know what else I can do. I mean, I think the tissue samples are probably destroyed i don't think they save them you know i mean forensically maybe some einstein guy would maybe one of your listeners is a vet we'll put here's the thing on the show notes any idea we will put the

similar yeah because we you know we actually just got a really mean letter from a vet who um he's real mad he feels like um and then dog he's real i think that a lot of people were like he's he works in the ag industry and he was real pissed about some stuff rogan was saying about big ag i don't have a problem big egg nor have i ever said i had a problem big ag whatsoever um but he feels that guys that like to hunt are somehow down on big ag like it's like a big ag guy apparently gets mad if people start extolling the virtues of other types of meat so he was mad about that but that guy he's a vet so what you could do is on the show notes we'll put up a picture of your

dog with its mouth full of quills yeah we'll put up a picture of these dogs when they're happy and yeah in the old days yeah yeah we'll put a picture of cute Braco Italiano puppies. And then we'll put up the toxicology report. There you go. And we will allow people to interpret the results. What I'm getting at, it might come up, we might not get any vet, but

a very similar thing could have happened to Joe Blow in Colorado. And they might have got to the bottom of it and that all might make more sense see the other thing i forgot to say the the one thing that'll kill a dog like that is called blue algae and that occurs a lot i know blue algea you know what that is kill elk it'll kill elk too oh yeah so uh if a dog drinks you literally if he drinks enough and gets blue algae you don't have enough time to even get him to the vet.

He's dead. Yeah, like when it wipes out herds of animals, they'll all be laying around the water hole. Yeah, they're not even dispersed. They don't make it that far. Right. But that wouldn't come up as alcohol poisoning. Exactly.

Exactly. But the mystery thickens. You ever have cows just die for no reason, Doug? Boy, it's been a long time. I mean, why did that cow die you know a better question like we found uh you know we found a cow dead in the pasture one time and you never like look into it's not worth the money to look into it yeah i mean you haven't and i haven't had one die for you know usually if they're looking bad you get rid of them i mean you know so it's not i mean you check them out die for, you know, usually if they're looking bad, you get rid of them. I mean, you know, so it's not, I mean, you check them out and then decide, you know, what you're going to do with them.

Do you ever cry when they die? I'm pretty kind to my animals, you know. So you cry when they die? Because you don't cry when you're sending them off to slaughter. No, but I'm, no, I don't cry when they die. But when I'm putting an animal on the, I mean, it's something that happens as you get older, I guess. I put even steers that I'm butchering on the trailer. Like you develop a Reagan-esque tendency to crying.

No, I'm not crying, but I have a different attitude about it. You have some empathy. Empathy, and I know what I'm doing. I know what's happening there. I mean, it doesn't mean I don't... You know you're on the trip. You have some empathy. Empathy, and I know what I'm doing. I know what's happening there. I mean, it doesn't mean I don't. You know you're on the doorstep of death yourself. But you don't come in the house. Doug, you don't.

I do think about that some. I honestly don't know what you guys, you guys are having like a weird conversation. I don't understand what you're saying right now. You're like, oh, you know, and then, like, you know what? Well, I asked you a flat out question. No, I don't cry when the cattle die. Do you cry when you send them off to slaughter?

I don't cry when I send them off to slaughter, but I have a different feeling about it than I did when I was younger. Okay. Explain that, please, if you don't mind. Explain what that feeling is. And what I was referring to was when Ron was saying that earlier when he was in his 20s and 30s,

he didn't have the same emotions about the dogs. And, of course, you get more attached to a dog than you do a cow or a steer or whatever. But I spend a lot of time with them, and it's part of why my animals are so calm and everything. And, I mean, I put them on the trailer, and I thank them. I know where they're going. I'm like, you know, it's a somber thing for me. It's part of why I want them just to be cool and say, hey, thanks. Looking forward to that steak.

It's like, hey, thanks. You got it. Well, yeah. I mean, so. I'll not talk about that. Okay. No, no, I'm fine. Doug's crying right now. The thing about it is you're saying that you have felt that you were either,

you used to be more callous, or you're just more sort of emotionally aware of the cycles of life and death now. Yes, because I'm near near to death myself as you said that's why that's why that's where i'm going with this is do you feel it's that you feel that you're like you know you recently lost your father you know i think that um one of the things that i've thought about and you recently had a birthday i recently had a birthday and you know i'm 59 years old and you know you have a lot more halfway to 11 old, and you have a lot more. Halfway to 118. Yeah, well, I have a lot more.

When I say, boy, 30 years ago when I was 29, well, 30 years from now, you know, I'm 89. Well, then I think about my mom, and she's still cruising along. Does she cry when the cows go? My mom has no regard for cattle whatsoever okay really so it won't get worse apparently but she doesn't she's not involved with the farm the farm is not her do you think you'll get to a point where you can't send cattle off to slaughter is it that fast or is it just a really gradual thing that's happening to

you i can't imagine a time when cattle still wouldn't just be cattle to me i mean that doesn't mean you treat them badly or or anything like that i mean it's just a it's a process you know it's would you send puppies off to slaughter yeah my father my father tells a story that he like in the old days he would no joke he would be sent out to get rid of litters of kittens done that yeah yeah he did not like it but he was made to do it we picked up a kitten my wife and daughter and i we picked up a kitten from another farm and we asked the guy said oh yeah come by and get a kitten. And I'm like, oh, man, because there was a cat at the farm that needed something. My daughter and wife decided that the cat at the farm needed a playmate.

So when I say kitten, I don't mean a little furry. I mean one that's a young cat. So we go up to this guy's place. And I thought, I'm just going to be able to say no when I get there, but oh no, we're taking one of these cats with us, you know. So, well, we didn't bring anything along to put it in. That was sort of my, you know, way out.

And John goes, the farmer says, well, I got a gunny sack. So he grabs the cat, I grab the gunny sack. He drops the cat i grab the gunny sack he drops the cat in i close the top of it and that cat came up and bit and we named the cat biter later because it came up and bit me bit me through the bag and held on i had blood running down my arm and i can only think that it would figure the next thing coming in there was a rock and it was gonna get tossed up it's like cats know about making this. I heard about this. It's like cats know about going fast. Next thing you know, you're on the end of some dock.

That cat ended up being one of the coolest cats ever, though, and I'm not a cat guy at all. I grew up around in dairy, you know, dairy production areas, and the dairy farmers would like to have cats because they would need to control mice and rats so they wanted cats but then they were always in this sort of delicate balance where you needed like enough cats but then you get too many cats they would get i think that they i don't know what the term they would use the farmers would use is feline distemper yeah and that would like

sweep through the cat population and wipe them all out. So the farmers were often in a situation of trying to cull. They would have cats, and they're not spaying and neutering these things, and they would get out to where there's a whole bunch, and they would want to cull the herd, cull the population of cats, and would on occasion. Have the Ronella boys come over? They would on occasion seek assistance, seek paid help in reducing the cats

for fear of a disease outbreak. And it didn't occur to them, I don't know why, to spay and neuter, but I think there's just enough stray cats running around. They just find their way there. Farm cats, yeah. I mean, it's just a it's it's it's a type of cat i mean actually the cat that we have in the house is a farm cat i think mark kenyon was saying wasn't he mark kenyon saying that all of a sudden

he has he has 13 cats living outside of his house they just because he fed one or something one showed up and the next thing you know that thing made love oh yeah i don't know i said no he's just got cats everywhere yeah not to not not anything he did so doug you've just been saying um all right well steve what about what about veal with uh oh i'm dead set against veal. We don't even have to have that conversation. You're against veal? I am against veal. We had a neighbor who raised veal. I dealt with it.

It's not a pretty sight. Yeah, and you got any concluding thoughts on veal? No, just concluding thoughts in general. Yeah, we might have to edit this out or maybe we'll keep it in. But did you read the email that came in about us being wrong about bow hunting yeah but that guy's just overly sensitive yeah a bow hunter being overly sensitive i'm shocked oh you didn't even want to talk about it it's like i just think that like yeah we can talk about it when we're done because we're obviously talking about just like i just

don't get like oh like we have a thousand boat like we have thousands of bow hunters that's an exaggeration we have loads of bow hunters on the show i've no stranger to bow hunt you bow hunt i just don't get it what's the what was the i don't did it. What's the, what was the? It doesn't even matter. You don't talk about bow hunting enough. Well, he has an anecdote-laden rebuttal to the idea that there's a higher wound loss. Oh. That there's higher wound loss with archery than firearms, backed up by the fact of three things that happened to me.

Yeah. Well, yeah, that was a problem. Fooled by randomness. Do you have any concluding thoughts, Yanni? No. Really? All right, Doug. You don't like veal.

I'd love to talk about it more, but I just feel like I'm done talking about livestock. Fair enough. I'm done talking about livestock too. It's just nice to be here in South Dakota. That's it? Yeah. I mean,

I don't know. We've covered so many different things here that I, I mean, there's tons of stuff I'd talk about, but. Listen, I feel bad. I only don't want to talk about it because.

About veal? No, I don't want to talk about veal either. I just don't feel like, because you know, I just, I don't feel like with all the, just the recreational outrage that they'll generate of some guy raises veal and his cows are the nicest cows in the world.

So I have a concluding thought then. One of the things I actually thought about before I came, I asked Yanni, should I be prepared to talk about anything? I said, have I ever been prepared to talk about anything when I've been on one of your podcasts? Yeah, but it's like that Picasso quote. Picasso, Pablo. The whole... Well, he sketches a thing out on a napkin, right? And it's worth all this money.

And someone says, hey, it only took you five minutes. He says, that took a lifetime. Yeah. All right, so you're just prepared from... A lifetime. Life prepared. 59 years now. It's nice to take a break

from talking about CWD, which I've been doing a lot of. That's your concluding thought. That is my concluding thought. Roof? Ruff? I've known Ronnie since 1964. I remember... How old were you guys that year? I was four. He was maybe five or six.

Naked in the pool? Well, they probably were were but not in high school well i've met you know i've known about you for years i remember when he hired you when when your dad promised him a couple of good workers promised my work he personally guaranteed my labor that's right yeah that's right he did but I've met a lot of people here at Pheasant Fest. So if you line them up, one through 100, this whole hunting and sportsmen, and it's all around, obviously, Pheasant Fest this week. Number one, quail and quail.

If you line up these people, 100 people, one in 100 may not be attached, but there's a bridge from one to two all the way down where these people are all linked together and it's you're finding that out yeah it's just spread so horizontal it's crazy it was cool very cool good oh that's a deep plug for wow i don't have i can't you got nothing like that i would like to encourage all your listeners to never let their dogs get out of sight and to listen to my podcast called The Hunting Dog Podcast, which we started on the same day three years ago.

Shameless promotion. Shameless plug for Ron Baines. Available on any format where a fellow finds a podcast. All formats they can find The Meat Eater, they can find The Hunting Dog Podcast. If you want to do a deep dive into hunting dogs, that goes beyond just losing a couple of them. Right. It goes into we've had conservationists on, we, it goes into, we've had conservationists on,

we've had trainers on, we've had breeders on, we've had Pheasants Forever on, Rough Grouse Society come on, loggers come on. So I try to cover a lot of topics, but just the same shameless plug. With the center of the bullseye being bird dogs. Yes, always a connection too. If the person's going to be a logger,

he's got to have a bird dog. It's like, you know, we've got something to yak about. So I thank you for starting your podcast in Texas. And we thank Joe Rogan for starting you on your podcast in Texas. Because that's how you got started.

First ever episode. Ransom Canyon, Texas. And as soon as I hung up the headphones, I said, I'm going to do this about dogs. It's the life for me. So thank you, Steven. I don't have any concluding thoughts. I do feel real guilty about cutting you off about that veal, Doug. I don't have any concluding thoughts.

I do feel real guilty about cutting you off about that veal, Doug. I don't know why you would feel guilty about it. Table that up. All right, thank you for listening. you you you Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians.

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