The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 120: Adaptive Hunting and Fishing

Episode Date: June 11, 2018

Bozeman, MT: Steven Rinella talks with adaptive hunter and angler Chris Clasby; along with Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew. Subjects Discussed: adaptive hunting and fishing; finding the limits of language; the delusion of reprieve; Occurrence at Owl Creek; facing challenges as an exercise of identity; adaptive technologies; calculating risk; catching trout by sucking and puffing; an obligation to advocate; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We want the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. Okay, first thing, Chris Clasby, I want to thank you ahead of time here, before we even start, thank you for coming on the show to talk to us

about some things that I imagine are probably like difficult to talk about at times. Yeah. No, I'm happy to be here and real grateful for you guys to create an opportunity to, I think, build public awareness around what's important to me and a lot of other people so yeah i'm kind of struggling um in a way that i usually don't to to begin uh like like where to start right like i want to ask you like what adaptive hunting or adaptive fishing like what that means but I also want to talk about your personal story of how you came, you know, to be in a situation where you needed to become aware of what those things are yourself.

What feels more natural to you? Either way, maybe first defining what is adaptive hunting, fishing, any kind of adaptive recreation. Yeah, let's do that. So I would say, you know, it's just a person who has a need because they have a particular limitation, whether that's physical or whatever. They have a need to find a way to be able to pursue the things that they enjoy. And for me, that means hunting, fishing, camping, and stuff like that. And so, you know, we kind of have always said that, well, there's two terms. One is adaptive equipment, and then that applies to adaptive hunting, fishing, et cetera. the broader field of the kind of equipment that ranges from communication devices

to recreational equipment, computer access equipment, home daily living modifications and equipment. And we've kind of always said that assistive technology can range from a piece of duct tape or bailing wire to a very, very high-tech communication device that helps someone with no verbal skills be able to communicate through a computer using their eyeballs and a tracking system. So obviously there's a very wide range. A wide range of technologies. And I guess the other important thing is whatever you're talking about, it's not the actual device or piece of equipment that defines it as adaptive equipment

or assistive technology but rather the way it's used so you know a piece of duct tape is a piece of duct tape but um if somebody doesn't have the ability to hold a tv remote for example maybe a piece of duct tape sticks it to a coffee table so it won't slide away from them. And that becomes an adaptive technology. Yes. Yeah. Okay, now, can you explain your own personal limitations to us

just so the listeners can... I want to walk people through kind of your your personal journey and sort of your background in the out of doors okay that you that you came up against what i would presume to have seemed like an insurmountable wall in pursuing the activities that you love and then your journey to find a way over or through or under that wall, right? Right. Okay, so, well, first of all, I'm a quadriplegic, high-level quadriplegic. You know, and they, based on the number of vertebrae, they give it a denotation.

I'm a C3-4 quad. What does that mean? It means my nerve injury, my spinal cord injury, occurred at the level of the third to fourth vertebrae down from the base of my skull. Okay. And so at that level of injury, you know, it can affect a person's diaphragm you know making them uh ventilator dependent fortunately i can breathe i have a quiet voice but i can breathe independently um and then i have no uh sensation or motor function below that level. So I can shrug my shoulder.

Yeah, Yana told me, I believe, that you said you cannot feel your clavicles? Correct. Or you cannot feel your clavicles? It's about there. I would say my clavicles are, there's impaired sensation. I might be able to, you know, if somebody rubs on it, I would probably know that something's happening, but I'm not normally feeling it, if that makes sense. No, it does. And when you say, like, when you talk about the ability to feel, meaning if someone pinched your elbow, you would not know that that was happening.

Right. Yep. Yep. Yep. So use of appendages, arms, legs is obviously out of the question. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it gets a little more complicated. Part of your body's autonomic system, you know, which motivates your fight-or-flight response um also has the ability to tell you when

something's wrong where you can't feel it so you know if i drove my wheelchair into a wall or something and broke my toe i wouldn't feel it but because of my body's autonomic system, I would probably know something's wrong. Without being really traced like how you knew it. Right, yeah. And then kind of the scary thing about that is when that happens, and so they call it autonomic dysreflexia. And when that happens, typical things are profuse sweating um unilateral flushing

like one side of my face or head will turn all red you know and i mean it's like there's a perfect line down the center of my face and one side is red the other side is not um the other thing is that your pulse rate slows way down but your vessels constrict and so your blood pressure goes sky high okay and and i know people have stroked out from it before oh so that's so it's pretty serious. Yeah. And the scary part, as I started to say, is that when that happens to me, I don't really know where to start to figure out what's wrong. Okay. You know, I mean. Because you're lacking like those physical cues.

Exactly. To tell you where something happened. Yeah. Yeah. Did you, I'm guessing you grew up hunting and fishing yeah grew up in the out of doors yep sketch that out for me a little bit um so i grew up north of great falls and conrad okay and um you know dry land farming community and there's a lot of pheasants, sun-garing partridge, things like that. Did you come from an agricultural family?

No, we lived in town. My folks lived on a small farm right before I was born, but I did live in town. But all my buddies were farm kids, you know, so I ran around with them a lot on there. How old are you uh 45 okay and then what so you guys hunted birds birds we hunted deer sometimes elk but pretty unsuccessfully you know as a kid um and it was an extended family thing. I spent a lot, a lot of time hunting with my uncle who's from Butte.

Um, you know, grandparents, cousins, things like that. To what degree did you, uh, self-identify as a outdoorsman? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like if people, if someone said, Oh, tell me about yourself. Right. How quickly would you get to the hunting and fishing part of it? I would say I'd get there if it might not have been the first thing I said, maybe the third.

Human, American, hunter and fisherman. Yeah. Yeah, and as a kid, like lots of people, I had so many different interests. And fortunately, I was introduced to rodeo, and so I rode horses a lot. Oh, I got you. And so that was a big part of my interest,

as well as I wrestled in school and stuff like that. So I had a variety of things. But physical. But certainly hunting and fishing was part of who I was. But it sounds like you lived an intensely physical existence when you think of wrestling, rodeo, hunting and fishing. Yeah. Active.

I think so yeah so what when did you like how and when did you suffer your injuries um so in 1990 i was living in helena going to high school graduated high school and it was my last year of high school rodeo. So after the state high school finals in every state, then the top four qualifiers go to or they qualify for the high school national finals rodeo. And I did not qualify for the national finals, but then there's been a longstanding, they call it invitational,

they call it Silver State Invitational Rodeo in Fallon, Nevada. So a buddy of mine who had also just graduated high school, Danny Slayton, and I had both qualified for Silver State. We traveled down there. We're at the rodeo and stuff. What event were you involved in?

Steer wrestling, and Danny was a bull rider. Can you explain what steer wrestling is? Yeah. Just for someone who doesn't know rodeo at all. Yeah, yeah. It's called steer wrestling or bulldogging and so basically there's you're uh uh the steer wrestlers on a horse and there's a shoot in front of and to the right of the steer wrestler when he nods his head, they let the steer out. It takes off for the backside of the arena. And on the other side of the steer is what they call a hazer, another guy on a horse.

And so the steer wrestler and the hazer come out of that box and approach the steer, and the steer wrestler then gets uh off the right side of the horse and the goal is to slide up to the steers horns grab them in a particular way and then uh wrestle it to the ground basically and it's a timed event and the time ends when the steers forefeet are pointed the same direction and it's on its side. Does steer wrestling, does it find its origins in an actual activity? Like roping is easy to picture, right? Yeah. So if you're working cattle,

there's a scenario in which you do something like that? Yeah, I don't think it happens every day that some guy in a big field bails off and you know throws a 500 pound steer but but but yeah its origin was you know traditional cowboy work yeah i'm guessing just to subdue it, to check on it, or give it some medicine, something like that. Yeah, exactly. Now, is that the one where you had to tie them? No.

No. No. You just had to get them on their backs or their side four feet up in the air. Yep. Four feet, usually, like, horizontal in the air, yeah. All right. So, thanks for entertaining that little digression. So you're headed down to Nevada, right?

Yeah. Silver State. Danny and I went down there. So we went to the rodeo. We're traveling home and probably 50 miles from home on I-15, we wrecked his pickup. And so that was it. I sustained my spinal cord injury.

Was it icy? No, July. And it was evening. I'm not sure what happened. I have no memory of it. Oh, I see. None whatsoever. And the next thing I knew, it was two months later, and I was in a rehab in Denver.

Yeah. And I looked around and asked where I am and why am I there. And then I discovered what had happened. Hold on. I'm clear on this, but I just want you to back up a minute. Two months went by that you were not conscious or not aware of what had happened or where you were. Right. Well, I guess that's a little bit of an exaggeration.

July 9th until September 2nd. So probably, is's seven weeks? Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not counting days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's just kind of stunning. So all of a sudden you wake up in a hospital. Yeah.

And lo and behold. Yeah. Yeah. You can't feel anything and can't move. Right. Yeah. What was that like? I mean, I can only, I mean.

Yeah. You're probably going to find the limits of language when you try to explain what that was like. Right. I think, yeah, originally, you're almost, or I almost, was trying to understand what was happening, what reality was, but at the same time trying to convince myself that it wasn't happening, if that makes sense.

No, it does. You read a lot. Do you know who Viktor Frankl is? Man, why do I feel like I know that? No, I don't. Tell me a little bit more. He was jewish psychiatrist no i don't okay so anyway in his book he he writes about this this what he calls delusion of reprieve which is when your mind convinces you that everything's going to be okay and he says up until the the last second that a condemned man hangs you know and i think that's what happened

you know but at the same time i had a lot of stuff to learn which is the whole purpose of rehab you know i i had to kind of relearn what my body was and relearn how things were going to happen and how i was going to be able to do things yeah i want to get into that heavy but i'm still tripping out about delusion of reprieve the term yeah have you ever read incident at owl creek or an occurrence at owl creek familiar with the book i have not read it it's a so it's a it's set during the civil war and a man gets captured and they go to hang him by throwing him off a bridge with a noose around his neck. And like the rope snaps. Okay.

And he lands in the river and lives out this whole existence of making it back home, reuniting with his wife. But then in the end, like the rope didn't break. Yeah. And he had this long, in the time it took him to be thrown from the bridge and to meet the end of the rope he had this long delusion of reprieve

I think it's called an occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge or something like that it's a good story I never heard that term, delusion of reprieve so you wake up in the hospital and how like how many days or weeks go by before you are kind of like okay here's where i am this is what's going on this is my new reality hey folks exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever

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handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. You know, I've always thought that for me, for whether it happened or not,

I think my mind didn't know what was happening and had dealt with some stuff before I was consciously aware of it. So I do remember that the day I found out everything, which the rest of the day was pretty much a blur, and I remember then going back to bed. I was up in a wheelchair when I discovered everything, and I remember going back to bed. i was up in a wheelchair when they when i discovered everything and i remember going back you were up in a wheelchair yeah it was like a hospital wheelchair you know they had me laid laid back in it and i was propped you know and were they anticipating

that you'd wake up they didn't know they didn't know actually what to expect. It was, so I was at a place called Craig Hospital, which is a rehab center. Big one, a good one. Neuro rehab. Second floor is head injury. Third floor is spinal cord injury. Obviously, I had both. Some level of head injury. Okay. As well as the spinal cord injury obviously i had both some level of head injury okay as well as the spinal cord injury it was labor day weekend that i woke up and i know that my dad told me uh he the doctor

my doctor was having a conversation with my dad. I was on third floor. And he was explaining to my dad, we might have Chris in the wrong place. We don't know what we can do for him. And he was thinking they better move me downstairs. To the second floor. Right. Which my mom didn't want, my dad didn't want.

Because they wanted to hold on to the hope. Right, yeah. Yeah, so they didn't know what to expect. And so, yeah, that doctor told my parents or whatever that he was going to be gone for the long weekend. And when he got back, if there wasn't significant change, I was going downstairs. And when he got back, I was a totally different person. You must have overheard.

Yeah. I took it as a threat, yeah. You overheard the conversation. Yeah. So did you then, you had to have entered into some kind of horrible depression right um well and that's that's kind of what i was saying that i think my mind dealt with a lot of it i see and and so i remember that day when i got back in into bed and stuff and for the first time was

alone because it's you know it's a commotion you get nurses and aides doing you know in the room and and my dad was there that weekend you know so when i was finally alone i think is when it emotionally hit me you know and yeah there were some real hard minutes there for a while. Minutes? Yeah, it passed pretty quickly. That doesn't mean I was suddenly, like, jolly and glad things had happened and everything was going to be okay. No, I had a lot of concern, a lot of worry. But I guess to answer your question,

no, I didn't experience any long-term or serious depression. Man. And I don't, I mean, I don't say that in a way that I take credit for it. I think my mind, you know, worked on it when I didn't know what I was doing. I'm sure that's a case-by-case basis, right? Yeah. Were you a person that dealt well with adversity through your whole life, you feel like? I think so, but I also don't feel like I'd had a lot of it.

You know, I had a pretty good childhood growing up. So you weren't forged by fire at that point? No. I don't think so. How, okay, as you are coming to where you're, I'm trying to get at something that's hard to articulate. you are coming to where you're... I'm trying to get at something that's hard to articulate. So there's probably all the immediate practical stuff.

Like, how am I going to move around? Where am I going to live? What is life going to look like? Okay, so you're dealing with all these very immediate practical concerns. And I want you to touch on that in terms of how far into this journey did you have to get before you're like and now i want to begin solving the question of how am i going to enjoy enjoy being alive. Okay? So how far into this were you before you thought,

like, you know what? I used to like to be in the out of doors. Let's start solving for this. I mean, was that a thing that took years or months? It all kind of happened at the same time. And I think I was real fortunate to be able to go to Craig Hospital. And they have a fabulous therapeutic recreation program, which, I mean, before this, I had no idea what those terms even meant, together. But Craig was constantly doing things for their therapeutic or therapeutic rec or TR. You know, they had outings booked and, you know, sometimes it was just going to the mall, you know, going out to eat or whatever.

They had several season tickets to the Broncos and later on to the Rockies and, you know, to the avalanche. And then. So they're like really quick to introduce the idea that you will still enjoy being alive. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And they've got a fabulous team of people um the rocky mountain arsenal is just not far from

craig and so this peter guy that we were talking about earlier peter powells he and a bunch of his buddies worked at the rocky mountain arsenal and made this fabulous bass fishery. And it's got wooden walkways and whatever. So they regularly are taking people from Craig Hospital to places like that to go fishing. And they've got adaptive gun mounts and things like that. Take people to go shooting. So what do you mean? How could you take someone to go shooting. So how could, like, what do you mean?

How could you take someone to go? Well. Like, how could they take someone to go fishing? They had several buses, shuttle-type buses, that belonged to Craig Hospital. And they'd post on the wall that, hey, we're going to have an outing to the fishery, and anybody that wants to go can come. If you're a patient that wants to go, they say, well, you could take two people with you, chosen companions, friends or family members.

And they have it scheduled on the date. You sign up for it and they work with you in advance to figure out what your functional ability is and what your adaptive needs are set you up with a fishing rig and you go fishing how long were you living in this in this place and in craig uh five months Five months, from September through December 15th. So you were almost getting down, like in the part of recovery, you're like focusing more on just like trying to live and enjoy life almost before you've solved a lot of those practical things that I was talking about.

Yeah. Yeah, and I don't think, in my opinion, at least I did not solve the practical things by the time I left rehab. So I went home thinking, well, here I go. Sink or swim. And so I hadn't answered all those questions. But there was a particular day, and I didn't go on any fishing outings with them while I was there, and I did not go on any shooting outings.

But I was down in T-rec one day messing around and discovered this one guy was like hey don't you like to shoot and whatever and i said yeah and he said here let me show you this and he showed me the this paperwork the schematics from this high-level adaptive gun mount that this guy from Bob Bowen from Shadner, Nebraska, had developed. And Bob ended up a high-level quadriplegic, and he was a firearms dealer and very, very active sports shooter and hunter and et cetera. And then when he had his injury he and his buddies set

together set out together and built this adaptive gun mount and so um and he would made it available to people you could purchase one and someone introed this to you yeah and in the hospital and craig right and i was for the first time i mean i i had a great time do anything i did with t-rac any of the stuff we did was great for me great for other people and really helped me understand that life still happens but when I saw that gun mount, it hit me. I was like, there's something that I do, you know, way better than hanging out at the mall. So I thought someday I'm going to get one of those. And so my first birthday after I left rehab, a friend of mine, an old duck hunting buddy, bought me one of those gun mounts.

Can you explain the gun mount, like what it mounts to, how it functions? Sure. The one that I'm talking about that I first discovered and first had, they called it the SR-77. So imagine there's two pieces of aluminum I-beam, basically. One going front to back and one side to side. And on top of that, right on top of that running, one running along each I-beam is a piece of all thread running out to the ends. And then on the end of that all thread was a windshield wiper motor hooked to each one. And then the windshield wiper motors were operated by a joystick, which is mounted on the gun mount,

and then you put it in a place where the user can move it. So for me, it was right at my chin. So I would... The rifle is cut off at the pistol grip. It's got no butt, and it mounts on top of this gun mount which attaches to my wheelchair and sits over my lap basically and so i lean my head forward and look through the scope just like anybody and then move this joystick left and right which and up and down, which turns the windshield wiper motor, turns the all thread,

which makes the rifle aim left, right, and up and down. And then it's got a little tube, you know, a little plastic straw that's hooked up to, they call it a breath tube actuator, which turns your breath into an electrical signal, and that's hooked up to a solenoid, and that solenoid is attached to the trigger. So when I sip in this tube, it jerks that solenoid, which fires the rifle. Huh. It was pretty, actually quite ingenious and rudimentary at the same time yeah and it worked it worked i shot a quite a few animals with that so you get this you get this adapter, and you get it rigged up.

And how do you even begin? Like, you go out to a rifle range? Yeah, yep. Went out to a rifle range and shot it a few times, and a lot of times, and got it sighted in. And so it was working so i had the tools but i really had no idea how the process was going to work like how is this going to happen you know i mean i mean like how's it going to happen that i'm actually going to go out and hunt that i can actually shoot something Yeah. And so, and Mary's with me, my girlfriend.

And so Mary's from a big hunting family, and her brother at that time was ranching in the Elkhorn Mountains, just east of Helena. Some big elk in the Elkhorns. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, we were hunting with tim and that's mary's brother but hunting how explain it to me well the first time hunting from a van and just driving up and

down the dirt roads looking for deer looking for whatever which would, we might as well get to this. Let's get to this now because it's going to raise an obvious question. There's legal implications here. Right. So in most states, the Wildlife Management Agency has permits that enable people with disabilities to do certain things. So like in Montana, Fish, Wildlife, and Parks has what they call a permit to hunt from a vehicle, PTHFV. And you have to meet certain physical criteria, limitations, and if you meet those, and it's all very formal in Montana Code Annotated, if you meet those conditions,

they then give you this permit, which allows you to shoot from a vehicle now you still have the same restrictions you don't shoot across a roadway you don't shoot off a paved road etc okay but if i'm in a field in a van and somebody opens the door i can shoot out of it legally. Was it hard to be successful? Did it take a long time to figure this out? No, it happened pretty quickly. Super lucky. I remember you said in one of your shows, I've watched the media a couple times, and you and Ryan Callenham were hunting mule deer on public ground in Idaho

and shot a really nice mule. And you guys were sitting there chatting, and you said, you know that saying when people say you should have been here yesterday? And you said, we were here yesterday. Today is yesterday. And I was like, that's what my experience has been. I mean, luck, whatever you call it, it's just kind of worked out that way doesn't mean that i go home empty-handed just like everybody and i'm glad about that but um yeah i mean i would say

hunted with tim probably three times and ended up shooting um a four-point mule deer that was the first animal i shot from my chair did it did it ever did you ever wrestle with it internally or did anyone else ever articulate to you the idea that like like why like why do you want to go do this? Like, this is something for other people, and now you're sort of not, not that you're not eligible, but for some reason, like, why go through all the hassle? Because the experience won't be what it was, right? So why not just, like, focus on other things? Did you ever have any doubt?

Like, it's going to be so, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're looking at it and you're like, my experience of it in the past, that you're walking around, you're doing all these things, that you're dragging the deer, whatever it is. So much of that will be different now that maybe it's not the same thing. Like maybe I'm not going out to do the same activity anymore because I can only capture certain portions of the activity now from what you knew in the past. Right. Well, so to answer that, I'm going to say I do have that permit to hunt from a vehicle. But I do not like to hunt from a vehicle.

And so I want to be on the ground. I want to be in the midst of it as much as I can. Okay. And so I've been able to keep it as authentic as possible. And I still feel like I've been able to capture the essence of what what much of it was before i used a chair and afterward and and so i guess i've never i've looked at it like you, anyone that hunts knows there's challenges. And so I've just looked at my situation as a different type of challenge, hunting.

And unimaginable things come up. And so it's just, I like that challenge of trying to find a way around it. And I guess ultimately, you know, you asked me when we first started, at what point did I start to identify as an outdoorsman? And so I guess, I guess for me, being able to face those challenges and stuff gives me an opportunity to really exercise my identity, who I am. And certainly there are, because of limitations, I would love to go on a solo trip overnight and be solely and completely responsible for the outcome, whether that's judgment or skill or knowing the right place. I like that idea. But it's also not going to happen.

And so for me, the communal aspect, small communal, but the opportunity to connect and retain a bond with people that I spend time in the outdoors is, it's beyond value, you know. And on that note, so my buddy Dan Pacchetti, and he's the guy that I usually hunt with. And he and Mary and I spent a lot of time hunting together. And Dan is a pretty hardcore diehard hunter and has, you know,

dedicated thousands of hours over the years to give me and us together an opportunity. And Dan was the guy that taught me how to team rope and really got me into rodeo as a young kid. Oh, so you were friends with him way back. Yeah, since I was 11. Okay. And so after my injury happened, there is some sense of losing connection with your friends because things change. And so being able for him and I to be able to find a new way to connect and pursue a mutual goal. It's a pretty awesome thing. That's a good friend, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. To be through that amount of changes with someone. Yeah. Yeah. And Mary, as I said, you know, I mean, so put in perspective three people hunting together. And, you know, with my situation, you know, it doesn't mean I'm jumping out of bed in the morning throwing my own clothes on. You know, things take a while.

And I need help with things. So there's many, many mornings where Mary and I are awake at 2.30, 3 o'clock in the morning with a flashlight, and she's helping me get my clothes on. And then about 5.30, 6 o'clock, Dan wakes up and starts to slip things on. But we've already been at it, you know, three hours or whatever. Yeah. And so it's not going to happen without Mary helping me. And then obviously Dan helping us, he does. So I'm the trigger guy marries if you get her upper

dan's the safety guy yeah safety something i want to talk about yeah because earlier before before we started recording you had talked a little about fishing i want to get into that and then get into like some obvious safety issues to come up with like being in the boat for instance but how can you explain the equipment that allows you to fish sure similar the controls are similar to that gun mount and this is all very very recently changed and for the better and and is changing as we speak but the first equipment i used to be able to actually cast and reel in was an electrical device and an analog system. And the guys down at Craig designed it and built it.

And it worked also with a sip-and-puff tube. And so I would sip into it, into this tube, which would activate a little spool that had a small rope on it that was attached to the base of the fishing rod. So as I'm sipping, the spool is tightening up that string, which cocks the rod back, which simultaneously is stretching a spring that's attached to the front of the rod. This headset's coming off. How's that? That's good a little more forward there there we go thank you you're welcome so as the rod's coming back you know the rope is the little rope twine is tightening the rods coming back then the spring is stretching and there's there's a device that they built to uh trigger the um the bail to release the bail without letting the line drop oh so when it comes back to the position the bail releases i quit sipping

and that spring jerks pulls the rod forward and casts and no shit is it pretty is it pretty accurate it it is um the old system was basically everything I described, but it was pretty limited, meaning it always casted basically the same angle, the same distance, the same speed, et cetera. So it was basically on and off. Right. Then, you know, when that happens, like, to help you place it, you know, in the right hole or right on the eddy line or whatever. But you're not controlling the distance of your cast. You're controlling where you are relative to where you want to wind up. Right. So the fisherman in that instance and the oarsman are working together.

And the oarsman is trying to place the boat so that the distance, we both know the cast is going to go. And the angle of the boat is going to help the fisherman time it enough to drop it in the right spot. Yeah, I got you. Yeah. And then, as I said, it's… Well, how does the process work of…

So it's all visual then. You're observing a hit. Correct. You're observing a hit. And then how are you reeling? Let's see. I blow in that same tube which activates the reel the motorized reel and it starts to reel but you know i you don't want to just reel straight in you know you're

you're your spinner is going to go to the surface and you and you're not going to be fishing in the right spot. So then you just kind of work it, and gradually you get to understand the speed of the reel, and you're able to bloat enough to keep it off the bottom without pulling it to the top. And I'm watching the tip of the rod, and then when something strikes it, then that system that I've just explained did not have a hooking action.

So then it just meant reeling pretty much as fast as I could. Oh, to get a hook set. Yeah, yeah. I could see this all fishing from a situation you described earlier of the guys that made the bass fishery where they had wooden docks. Mm-hmm. But you're saying that you're out in a boat. Yes. In a wheelchair, in a boat.

Yes. On a river. Yes. Is it like a foregone conclusion that if that boat were to flip, that you drown? Not really. Absolutely, there's inherent risk. And by doing it, by agreeing to participate, you're taking that risk but that's life well how much does the wheelchair weigh 250 300 and you're buckled in i mean you're buckled i i undo the

straps okay yeah and you have a pfd on life jacket. Yeah, yep. And then, you know, as Peter, my buddy, says, you know, he said it's calculated risk. You do as much as you can to minimize problems and hope that something does happen, and it still may happen, but you've done everything you can to prevent it. Do you, when it comes to calculating the risk, are you more, now that you've been through so much,

are you more cavalier about risk now? No, I'm actually more careful. Are you? Yeah. Yeah. Especially the older i get okay things have slowed down a little in what way well i just i'm a little i'm just more careful i'm a little less to do something that's maybe, I don't want to say not sensible, but that there is a greater risk. When you catch a fish, let's say, do you feel more, you go out and catch a fish, Do you feel the excitement of catching a fish

and the satisfaction of catching the fish from the same perspective that you would have felt it prior to your accident? Or do you feel like I caught this fish and I'm quadriplegic? Or do both of those things happen at once? I think they both happen at once um but again back to you know me knowing that this stuff wouldn't happen without other people rather than me

thinking i caught this fish and i'm quadriplegic i do view it as we caught this fish yeah you know when i shoot a bull elk i don't feel for a moment that i shot it that i did it by myself you know we so we accomplished that yeah we being um a couple things i imagine like we being your immediate group right you're sort of clan you know right out in the hills and then we being like some much bigger we of people who've dedicated themselves to sort of establishing like the adaptive technologies. Yes. Right? Yeah. So are you now in a position where you've been involved in sort of designing or consulting or influencing these technologies? Yeah, a little bit. Mostly because the technology is not happening at big companies. Because there's no market.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's a market, but limited. It probably, the research and development is not going to be paid by the return on investment. So it probably comes from a non-profit? Yeah, and just good people that are... I guess when I say non-profit. Yeah, and just good people that are... I guess when I say non-profit, it's not from the perspective of, man, if I could build a rod

that would be usable to quadriplegics, I'd make a killing. Right, right. So some of these things must get made and they're made like just handfuls of devices, dozens of devices. Yeah. At what point, like, cause right now you'll come in. So right now you're here talking to us about this.

At what point did you begin to think about you'd overcome like these insurmountable difficulties and you found a way to enjoy the things that you used to enjoy and learn to enjoy new things that you hadn't enjoyed before. At what point did you feel that you had an obligation to come out and tell other people or help other people get through these things? I think I felt it when it first started happening. Because I remember that deer, the first deer I was saying I shot,

with Mary and her brother. And somebody called the newspaper and was like, hey, this guy. So they contacted me. We'd like to do a story. You know, I wasn't doing it for publicity. I wasn't doing it to get my name in the paper. I was doing it because of sheer enjoyment. Yeah, you were already doing it anyway before. Yeah, but I then at the same time felt like

I've been granted some pretty amazing opportunities. And by enjoying those opportunities, I feel some inherent responsibility to share that in a way that might help other people. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join our northern brothers

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that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function.

As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. Yeah. welcome to the to the onyx club y'all yeah and have uh because it seems to me like you're resilient and that you didn't allow a long passage of time after your accident where you just you know gave up have have you found that your case,

like your personal journey or situation is sort of an anomaly? Or have you talked to other people who have not been willing to or been reluctant to overcome all the obstacles? I think sure, there are just like any other subset of

a population, there's people that really struggle and maybe don't get to the point where they can start to enjoy life again. And I acknowledge that. But I think people are, human beings are incredibly resilient and find ways to do things. You know, it's funny because I didn't know anything about disability before my experience. And then all of a sudden, I'm faced with it. And pretty soon you start to recognize that there are people out there doing absolutely amazing things.

Amazing things that seem totally impossible. and somehow they find a way and so i don't know i mean are there i guess i couldn't answer are there more or less people who do or do not find ways to do things i I'm aware of a lot of them who have really done some incredible things. Do you regard yourself now as being involved in a sort of, is there sort of like an adaptive movement or an adaptive community that works to sort of create and connect people with adaptive technologies

so that they can overcome disabilities? I mean, is there a place where people go for support on these issues? Or is it just everybody? Is it kind of every man for himself no no i think what i've found is that um people find ways to connect i don't know of any specific adaptive network or whatever but certainly with the, people share information and, hey, how does this work for you? So there's a lot of benefit from a peer perspective in that way. But I also feel that there's a lot of programs, conservation, hunting, fishing, any kind of outdoor programs that have in some way done their best to help give people opportunities. And, you know, I mentioned Fish, Wildlife, and Parks.

You know, they, in 1989, they initiated what they call they're crossing the barriers effort which is their effort to make all their programs facilities etc accessible to and usable by people with disabilities and that includes some of the permitting programs that they have and et cetera. And, you know, just the big law, the big civil rights law, which prevented and was intended to prevent discrimination by public and private entities is the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act. So if you think about the fact that Fish, Wildlife, and Parks initiated their crossing

the barriers before law happened, requiring them to do that, that's pretty significant i think yeah it's progressive minded yeah and there's there's a lot of organizations out there um a huge one is it's the safari club international i i really didn't know anything about the Safari Club International. And I was nominated by a friend of mine, Dr. John Harlan, who's retired in Missoula, surgeon, and a member of the Safari Club. And he nominated me for this award that sci offers uh they give it out annually it's called the pathfinder award and the the winner of the award is chosen because he or she has been a hunter and experienced some life-changing event that limits that ability, but still been able to find ways to pursue those activities.

And then also has contributed to others' opportunities and that kind of thing. So Dr. Harlan nominated me for this award, which means a worldwide award. And I think typically they choose two people a year. And I knew he was because I helped with the information for, you know, the nomination or application. But I didn't think there was any chance. So I win the award in 2011. So SCI flies me to Vegas for their annual convention, and they have a banquet, the Pathfinder Award banquet, and so that's pretty unbelievable yeah and and it just so happened that the guide, the professional hunter that I was matched with, the guy started his name, I'll probably say it wrong, but Jan Ulofse. And so super great guy.

I met him in Vegas. Then we went and spent two weeks with him and so i was talking to him about the history about of this how did the pathfinder award come about how you know etc and it turns out that i think in the 90s um a guy who was a hunter and real involved and stuff had experienced a significant injury and was really having a hard time. So a couple guys, Jan and some other guy, got together and chatted about it and said, what can we do to really help this guy out? So they awarded the first Pathfinder Award to that guy and took him on a trip. You know, that's pretty amazing.

And Safari Club International does that kind of thing in its local chapters all the time. So I have, personally with the western montana chapter i participated in i've been there on two hunts where young boys with disabilities were able to hunt elk and both were successful the only reason i was there is because i have a four-wheel drive van with a lift. Okay. So I was just helping them get where they needed to be. But, yeah, and so I guess, sorry for my deviation, whole point is, you know, there are a lot of programs and organizations that like being involved in this kind of thing

and that see the reward that happens. And so I guess there's not an adaptive network, but there are people and organizations out there that facilitate the process. Do you have a thing you say or would like to say when you meet people who are trying to overcome these kind of, you know, these like severe adversity, these adversities in life? Like, do you have sort of like a stump speech

you give to people who feel like there's no way to go forward and it's coming from someone who's been there, you know? I guess, not the specific language but two messages that I hope that I share because they're things that have helped me

and the first one is they're kind of related but the first is and not lose hope you know I mean if you lose hope, you might as well hang it up. You know, that things will get better. Things do get better.

Things get easier, more enjoyable. And then just generally to not lose hope in a belief in possibility. Because I think if a person's able to envision that something they want to do can happen and maybe will happen, even if they don't know how it will, I think that keeps them moving forward. And toward finding a way. Right, yeah. Have you had a problem keeping your own advice at times?

Sure. Do you ever, you fall into? You fall into moments of bitterness? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are they frequent? No. No.

Are they long-lasting when they become? No. Is it fair to say bitter? What's it feel like? I would say discouraged. Discouraged. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I've ever been bitter, but certainly discouraged.

And fortunately, they're not long-lasting. Man, I really want to thank you for coming and taking the time to talk to us. Yeah. Thank you guys for having me. Do you have anything you want, things you'd like to add that we didn't get a chance to talk about? No, I was thinking as we're driving over here, you know, because to any organizations out there or people who find some level of whatever, joy, satisfaction, in seeing people who have limitations be able to pursue these activities. I'd encourage people to please help support those opportunities however they can.

Get involved with a conservation group. Get involved with a sporting group or whatever. And they're not difficult to find. And maybe you can be an instrument to help somebody face what is otherwise a pretty insurmountable barrier. So I guess that's the first thing and um and then secondly kind of along the same lines if if there are individuals who are maybe end up listening and think you know yeah but i don't you know, that couldn't happen for me.

Yeah, it can, you know. And I'm so fortunate that I've had the social support and the people around me to encourage me to do things, you know. And so if a person doesn't have those people, let's say if I was plucked out of my regular everyday life and dropped into a new location where I didn't know anybody and I had to figure out how can I do this if I want to. You know, don't be afraid to knock on doors. Don't be afraid to find out who the groups are around that what they do what can you do to

offer them and you know so i guess that will just hopefully lead to opportunities yeah well i'd just like to point out that like we kind of breezed over chris's very very like illustrious hunting career and it sounds like he's shot like from what we heard in the last hour like a deer and elk but from talking on the telephone i mean you've now killed like you're saying dozens of elk dozens of deer and you're even shooting ducks now, right? I read an article where you're trying. Yeah, working on it, yeah. Like wing shooting. I did wing shoot one duck, which may have been luck, but they usually land into the wind. They usually come in about the same altitude or same level above the ground.

So if I'm aiming in the right direction and it's a safe direction and I know, you know, a reasonable distance to shoot and a duck distance to shoot, and a duck happens to enter that area, then I think it's reasonable to take a shot. Yeah. How many days would you say now, like, this coming up fall, like, what do you have planned?

Or, like, how many days do you think you'll spend out and about? Well, since I'm planning to draw a bull moose permit, Nice. No, I'll probably spend between hopefully antelope, deer, elk, maybe a moose. I'll probably spend 12, 15 days in the field. Something like that. It's more than the average hunter is going to spend in the field. Yeah, that puts you in top tier.

That puts you in top tier days in the field. Yeah, that puts you in top tier. That puts you in top tier days in the field, top tier outdoorsman. I would say some years it's a lot less, like anybody. You know, either life gets in the way or you get, you were there yesterday, the first time you go out. Yeah, yeah.

But, no, I, yeah, I just, I enjoy it. What's the next piece of equipment that you're thinking, like, this would be cool, I should or we should start working on this to, you know, help you do something that you feel like maybe is out of reach, but you're thinking about it? Well, it's being perfected right now. The guys down at Craig Hospital have been working on that fishing system we talked about, which is analog.

They've now got that all converted to digital which gives it more capabilities i can set a hook i can adjust the angle of the cast um and let's see what else the distance of cast and so uh and i've used the prototype well in the yard you know with peter peter had my buddy peter had it plugged into a laptop and so he and i were just casting it together i was casting it he was making adjustments and stuff and they're perfecting it right now. So, yeah, I really want to use that device, and then they're going to use that same technology to further improve a rifle mount. So I'd really like to try that. Is some of the equipment prohibitively expensive?

Yes. Yes, it is. But some of the people who make it because they know they're not making money are very generous with it. Yeah, generous to make and then generous to get into people's hands. Basically, yeah, for what it costs them to build it, sometimes less, if they can get some of the parts donated or otherwise acquire them. Yeah.

These guys sound like some pretty amazing guys. They are. The crew down there. They're amazing. And I know, you know, we were talking earlier, you guys are going to be spending more time in Bozeman. I would strongly encourage you to go check these guys out on Fish Hatchery Road. Well, it's Barney Road, I think. It's the road that goes to the Barney Bridge.

It's about an eighth of a mile from the bridge. They have their camp. It's called Camp Bullwheel because there's a big actual bullwheel still sitting in the yard from 1920s or something. Yeah, these guys are going to be doing some pretty cool stuff. I mean, like making adaptive technologies available to people that need them. Yeah. Helping them use it.

Yeah. Oh, and there's so many people contributing to the project, you know, volunteer guides, volunteer shuttlers. One guy, he's planning to come first thing i think maybe from indiana he's going to be here for the whole summer his job's to cook um so and they're just running river trips with people in wheelchairs and fishing. Yep. People in wheelchairs or other limitations that might not be wheelchair, but yeah. Yep. What's this organization called again?

Camp Bullwheel. And then, again, the hospital that's done a lot of the... Craig Hospital. And they've helped develop a lot of the... Craig Hospital. And they do a lot of, they've helped develop a lot of adaptive technologies. Yep. That's good for people to look up and check out, I think.

Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah. All right, man. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you, Guy. For joining us. Appreciate you taking all the time. I know you have a long drive.

It'll be a good drive, though. A good drive. Nice day out there. Yeah. You'll see some wildlife I think yeah Chris Clasby thanks Chris

thank you guys hey folks exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada you might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law but hear this on axe hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians.

The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now, the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. We'll see you next time.