The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 176: You Can’t Start a Convo with F-You

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

Steven Rinella talks with Travis Swartz, Miles Nolte, Sam Lungren, and Janis Putelis.Subjects discussed: Steve’s field trip to the graveyard and the fishy circumstances surrounding the death of John Bozeman; Reel Recovery; where Travis ends and Hank Patterson begins; fishing etiquette infractions; aural deception and ham juice; fair trade flies; offing the head; keeping fishing holes secret; getting arrested; effete anglers; why fly fishing is so parody-able; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch     Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google Play Store. Know where you stand with OnX. Yanni likes to say, okay, we're on. Okay, we're on. Well, he certainly didn't use that earlier, did he? I want to recap something because we were having a little pre-chat.

Who here's been to jail? Not me. I can't tell you. I can't tell you. You've been to jail a bunch and you're now trying tell you. I can't tell you. You've been to jail a bunch? And you're now trying to backpedal? No, no, I've not. I've been to a jail, but I've not.

Like on a school tour? Used to check it out just to see what I thought of it and whether or not I wanted to get involved. And it set me straight. I didn't want to go back. You didn't want to rule it out without having taken a look. I just thought, like, in jail there's just so many things I wouldn't be able to do that I'd like to go do. So I thought, oh, I should probably. I didn't stop breaking the law.

I just got smarter about it. You were like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it right. Yeah. I knew who to give money to and stuff like that if I got pulled over. That kind of thing. We just did a school tour. They would not have allowed me to be anywhere near a school. Well,

when do you have children? Oh yeah. How many kids you got? I got two, two daughters. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking to Travis Schwartz who goes by the Hank Patterson. Do you know what?

I want to get back to jail and I want to get back to my kids school tour, but I was driving a couple of weeks ago from Ketchum, Idaho to here. I did that yesterday. Well, along the way, I saw a damn sign on a store that said something like, welcome, Hank Patterson, or something like, Hank Patterson coming. Yeah, it's a big deal. And I tried to then find a landmark to be able to tell you this story better.

Yeah. No, I know. My name's not on so many marquees in the Ketchum area that I don't know what we're talking about. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Peekaboo Angler in Peekaboo, Idaho. That's where I saw it.

Yeah. I saw it, took note and then wanted to tell you the story. And I was like, you know, I'm going to grab a better landmark. Yeah. And then, and then whatever got distracted by the beauty of the landscape or something. Oh, yeah. So now here I am with a story that's like not as good as it could be. You were not, for those listening, you were not far from Craters of the Moon National

Monument. We're not far from that. You're correct. Yeah, that was like, so you saw my name in lights under like unleaded gasoline, $3.19. Yeah. And then the next thing you saw was welcome to craters of the moon. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, congratulations. Yeah. I'm, I'm big in that town. I never drive around and then see, um, a thing welcoming me on a sign. Yeah. Just randomly.

Uh, somebody in that area is probably now going to like text or like email me that I'm not that big a deal in that yeah or they're gonna go they're gonna go vandalize he's not that big a deal what were you going there for what were they welcoming well so opening weekend fishing in idaho so a lot of the streams rivers in idaho close for the spawn and so it opens uh the weekend of memorial day and so we put on a big um opening day at Peekaboo Angler, which is on Silver Creek, which is my absolute favorite place on the planet to fish. And so

it actually, it's a town of like 30 people. And it is my favorite event of the year, just based on the fact that nostalgically speaking i couldn't be more honored to be invited to speak and be a part of an event uh anywhere near silver creek so yeah hold that thought i gotta that brings up a couple things i want to ask about which is one of the reasons i don't want to go into jail i want to talk well i want to talk about going to the jail house because i just chaperoned my oldest boy's school field trip. The field trip, we went to three places. We went to the old jailhouse and saw the gallows, which are still sitting there.

And we got to talk about the guy, the only guy they ever hung from that gallows, which my kid made a very big impression on him. He likes to bring that up often now. We then rolled over to the graveyard and toured the graveyard, and we went to the county recorder's office where you record property exchanges. Was there, I have to ask. I got a lot more out of this field trip than he did. Was there a through line? Very macabre field trip. Meaning, did they talk about the guy that got hung?

No, that would have been great. And then went to his tomb? And then went to, yeah. No, we went to other people's graves. Oh, that's too bad. But the best thing I learned, I don't know how I didn't know this. I didn't know that there are fishy circumstances around John Bozeman's death. Oh.

You guys basically familiar with this dude? Yeah. Like Bozeman Pass. Yeah, the Bozeman Trail. Made the Bozeman Trail, which like cut off the Oregon Trail and brought people up to the gold fields. Yep.

Yeah. They were dicking around on the Yellowstone in the 1860s. Who's the they in this story? A couple of his buddies. A couple of ne'er-do-wells. Local figures. They're dicking around on the Yellowstone. And they come back

and they're like, oh, John's dead. He got shot by the Blackfeet. We buried him in a hole. Later, a guy on his deathbed. Oh, fishing was pretty good. Oh, yeah, John. Oh, yeah, John. Oh, John? Oh, yeah, John.

A little incident with John, though. He got killed, and we buried him. Well, a guy on his deathbed, a buddy of his on his deathbed. I don't know if deathbed confessions are real, but supposedly the guy has a deathbed confession that he got. It was fratricide. Over some cattle dispute, they shot him. And then the guy that the deathbed confession gets made to sends some of his cowboys over there and they dig his body up.

And they got his knife, his knife's in the old jailhouse on display. And they dug him up and buried them over on the hill here at the graveyard in town. Hmm. Huh? Think about that. I didn't know about that part of the story. No.

Mm-mm. Hmm. His tomb in the graveyard up there says killed by black feet. They haven't, they haven't. I'm going to put a parenthetical. Someone needs to go in there at night and chisel in a parenthetical.

Yeah. Or like an ass. Or maybe a white dude. Not according to Doug. The black feet were scapegoats for a lot of stuff. someone needs to go in there at night and chisel in a parenthetical yeah or like an ass or an asterisk not according to doug the black feet were scapegoats for a lot of stuff back then yeah like who did it oh yeah so we buried him they look like black feet everyone probably bought it right away was that a thing back then you just bury a guy right where he like you didn't wouldn't you have they didn't have to drag them back they would have had to drag them back over the pass that now bears his name maybe that felt yeah it seems like a lot of effort really yeah you know it's just been more it doesn't matter so uh can

you start out travis yeah oh introduce yourself oh yeah uh miles nolte director of fishing here at meteor you've been on before i I have been on once or twice. Yanis. Thank you. Okay, great. Good stuff, Yanis. Really nice. Really nice.

I've been asking for a title for a year now, and everybody's like, oh, you know, titles don't work for Sam Verma. What can I tell you about, boss of all knowledge? I was going to say chief knowledge officer. Chief knowledge officer. Chief knowledge officer. K- officer. Chief knowledge officer. Okay, you're the CKO. Sam?

Sam Lundgren, fishing editor. I also work in this lovely office place. And then, Travis, can you explain where you end and Hank Patterson begins and what is Hank Patterson? Who is Hank Patterson? It takes us back to that Mitch Hedward joke doesn't it like is hank patterson's my all is an alter ego i guess you would call it so i i uh i used to want to make fishing films fly fishing films seriously i used to want to no no no no well yeah no i did that's true so hank started because i was i was doing a documentary on taking guys with cancer fishing.

And I needed to raise- A real one. Yeah. Yeah. I needed to raise some money. That'd be hard to parody. Yeah. No, that would have been-

That'd be a tough parody. It would not have been funny at all. It'd probably have forced you to parody. Yeah. That would have ended Hank Patterson really, really early. This is hilarious. So we were making this documentary and and so uh tell me about the documentary though so for real recovery organization we take men with with cancer

fly fishing my buddy reese was going on still today yeah yeah so i'm on their their national board of directors which should tell you that they need better directors like board people yeah i'm not doing a good job people are going write in. I did a decent job on the film, but, but I'm a terrible board member. I don't do, you know, anything I, I, anyway. So, uh, you know, so my, my buddy Reese, he had cancer and he was going to go on this retreat and, and we needed to raise some money to make this documentary. And, uh, the Drake magazine was doing a contest, a fly fishing film contest, uh, and humor was the category. And so my buddy Reese calls me up. He said, Hey, they're, they're doing a funny, a fly fishing film contest, and humor was the category. And so my buddy Reese calls me up. He said, hey, they're doing a funny thing.

You're funny. I'm funny. This is what I do for a living. Dude, I'm laughing my ass off. No, I'm funny. And so I said, oh, okay, so have you ever seen a funny fly fishing film? And he said, no. And I said, okay, so the bar is where we need it because I'm not that talented.

It begins with a river. Yeah. So I sat up one night and I wrote the first Hank Patterson episode. And then we went out the next day and we shot it. And then I edited it that night and overnighted it and won. Why Hank Patterson? Well, I had no ideas. And so I had done another character on a on a film that I was in.

Why that name? Oh, so Hank was my dad's dog's name. And then Patterson, I just went on Facebook and I just started scrolling through names and my buddy Michael Patterson came up. was all very last minute you know but from the phone call of hey we should make a funny fly fishing film to sending the finished product out was like 27 hours yeah and and uh and and so and it it's probably the best episode i should probably which one like a south park thing right so i should probably do them all in a truncated amount of time instead of overthinking it it's uh i think it's just called episode one i don't we didn't have really elaborate titles back then you just you know because we didn't figure we would ever make another one but then people sent me some free waiters and i thought well shit i need i need a fly rod so we should make another one and so people kept sending me free stuff and i can make

enough videos are you kidding out now yeah oh i got i got yeah i could open a shop at this point and people are always asking well why do you you should give some of that stuff away or you should would you sell me your you know rod box or something like that no it's there will come a time and it's probably soon where people are like don't give this guy any more free stuff he's worn out is welcome so tell me more about the real i want to know more about the real thing though yeah the cancer thing yeah so well so reese my my friend so that's who started how many got how many how many people do no i want the back i want the backstory though yeah how many people do you guys take how many people does your organization host or how many how many cancer patients do you guys take out are these end of-of-life people? Some of them, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

So 32 retreats across the country. I am on the board for the national organization, and then I also am one of the people that runs the Idaho retreat. And so we take – each retreat takes 12 to 15 guys is about how many you can fit in a retreat. It's all free, So the participants don't pay anything at all. So every organization or chapter has been tasked with raising the money to take the guys out. And basically what they do is you come in on a Friday and you mix up sort of a group therapy, like these discussions. These guys get to talk about things they've never been able to maybe talk about as far as their cancer experience. And so we'll sit in these group settings and have

these, we call them courageous conversations. And we'll do that and then we'll take them fishing and then we'll come back and have another conversation. So it's sort of a mix up of that and dinner and just hanging out and being around other guys that are going through a very similar experience. It's, you know, I'll admit that every year it comes up, I've got a busy schedule and I'm like, oh man, it's the absolute best weekend of my year every single time, partially because every single time I think, oh man, I don't know if I can go this year. I'm so busy. And then you go up there and, you know, it's an opportunity to sort of see what some other people are going through that might be a little more difficult than anything that you're experiencing. But I think everybody uses it. The buddies who are the guys that take these guys fishing, sort of the guides.

I think everybody has a pretty emotional experience and uh it's a cool thing uh so you've gone with people who then you've met many people yeah who've then now passed away yeah yeah yeah so um like uh it's yeah it's it's tough i mean we've we've had guys that you get close to and you know, you know, it's like, you know, what stage, you know, of cancer they're in and what the likelihood is. We certainly don't talk about that. I mean, we try to keep a very positive, the conversations and the outlook for everybody is as positive as you can. And when we're fishing, we don't usually much talk about cancer. It's that experience. They all come back every single without fail.

Every single time they come back from that first fishing outing and we sit in that group conversation, somebody will say the words, I didn't think about my cancer one time while I was fishing. But it's tough. I mean, you lose guys, but it's an honor to give them an experience where they get to not have cancer for a few hours on the water. Reese, who started Hank Patterson with me, passed away a little over three years ago. So he had melanoma, you know, wear sunscreen, had melanoma that just got into his system. And ultimately he passed away from brain cancer. So one of my best friends. How old was he?

He was 44 at the time, I suppose. I'd have to do math and I'm really – and Reese would be the first to tell you that I'm really shitty. I haven't had very limited exposure to people who had an illness where you knew kind of where it was headed. You knew you had a finite period of time to live. I've seen it with old people, but you're in a different space. Have you found that when you deal with people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, whatever, and they know that they have some limited amount of time to be alive are they on average are they like kicking and screaming in to it or do they hit like a point of of resignation moving toward that date you know i you asked me if i had kids i have two daughters and they've they're both older and they've moved out of the house and people ask me i'm going somewhere with this. Uh, people ask me all the

time. I thought you were like talking to someone on the phone. People asked me, you know, it was that hard when they, when they moved out. And I said, it's just this natural, something natural happens. It's time. It's their time to, to move on. And, uh And the experience that I've had where I'm close with somebody who's going through cancer, who passed away, there seems to come a time where there is nature, you know, that, that I can come up with. Um, but that they do accept it. And, and, you know, there's sort of a natural thing. I'm sure that some people, I guess we all would experience it in a different, in a different way. I did an interview with Reese when he was getting, uh, pretty sick. And, and he said one of the most surprising things about his experience of having cancer was just how shocked everyone was. Oh, my God. And he said, it's, you know, death and, you know, whether it's cancer or getting hit by a bus, whatever, that's the one thing we're all assured of. And so he said, you know,

the more you think about it, the more you just sort of come to terms with it. And you have, there's a comfort there in the fact that, well, it's just my turn. Everybody has to experience it. And I guess that's sort of the natural sort of thing that I think. That's good headspace. Yeah. When I picture it. Yeah.

The thing I pictured, the only thing I picture, if I imagine it and imagining it happening to you is a very gross approximation to what happened to you. When I imagine it happening, I imagine the only thing that I would really care that much about is the anxiousness about not being able to see what was going to happen to your kids. Yeah. The question mark. The question mark. Yeah. I'd be like, you know what?

If you can just tell me, if I can just watch a video clip of them in 20 years that sort of sets the scene, cool. Yeah. But until you give me that capability, I will kick and scream. Yeah. That would be the part that would kill me. He certainly talked a lot about the fact that his, you know, he felt like he was letting his family down. Yeah. a lot about the fact that his, you know, he, he felt like he was letting his family down and to not be there as his kids got older, uh, to have an influence on him, the type of influence that he wanted to have, uh, as a dad, um, I, I, that, that, uh, that hurt him a lot. Um, but again,

you just, you know, he, he set out to create as many memories as he could. And I think a lot of those guys, you know, that we talked to that come to the retreats and are in that same space, they're just, you know, they're trying to live in the moment. They're trying to create memories. They're trying to be appreciative of the things that they've experienced. And certainly there's a bummer of the things that they haven't yet got to do that they thought they would. And I think we'll all face that. I mean, at one point we'll all go, oh, shit, I don't get to go do that thing that I always thought I would get to go do. You ever see the movie My Life Without Me?

No. Dude. No, I can't. It guts you out. Anyways, this gal, she's terminally ill, and it's about her. She doesn't want to tell her husband she doesn't want to tell her husband and doesn't want to tell her kids but she sets about getting their lives squared away oh yeah including finding him a new woman oh yeah nope nope nope nope that'd tear me apart oh can't do it that's

a tricky movie um on to comedy now they teed that one out of the funny part. Good segue. So you're involved in this and you want to raise some money for it. And that's how you come up with, that's how you start doing parodies, fly fishing parodies. Yeah. We just wanted to win the comedy award for the Drake Magazine competition and we did. What was the reward? Well, now here's the deal. Who's Tom?

Tom buys the- Oh, I met him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the deal. When you say Tom, who's Tom? Tom buys the- Oh, I met him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the guy that runs that. And I haven't met him. We've talked on the phone. You never met him? No.

I met him in Colorado one time. He was nice on the phone. He's smaller than you expect. He was nice when I met him. He probably doesn't remember meeting me when we met. Yeah, he probably doesn't want to meet me. I'm a pretty, I'm a sizable, you know what I mean? Intimidating.

Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm 6'1", 285. I don't look it on video, but I work out, yoga, yogurt, the whole thing. Oh, I'm intimidated by you just sitting here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I almost came in a half shirt, and I thought about it. But I was like, I don't want to ruin a good shirt uh yeah

what what the hell were we talking about um did you have so but you genuinely like to fish though i do i love fish so you harbored somewhere in you um yeah you harbored someone in you disdain for yourself yeah i just i took a uh a an incredibly inept but overly confident character and made him a fishing guide. Somebody who knew absolutely nothing and had zero patience. Everything that you need to know and do and the type of character I believe you need to be to be a good fishing guy. You need to be somebody that wants to teach. You need to be somebody with knowledge. I mean, these are the things that make a good fishing guide. So I took a very angry, impatient person who really had no clue what the hell he was talking about and made him a fishing guide. I had never fished with a guide in my life when we made the first series of videos ever. Were you ever a guide? No. No, I get that asked a lot.

I have people email me all the time trying to hire me as a guide oh you should take them up on it if you've seen the videos i'm like i know i should like collect you'd buy you know that's the thing there are restaurants where there are restaurants staffed by aspiring actors who are hostile yeah i've seen this to the clients yeah i don't know why anybody would want so people call you they want to be guided by a parody of an awful guide yeah and they want you know they want the whole experience they want me to yell at them they want me to get drunk they want me to fall asleep in a chair they want me to not tie their fly on they want everything is the opposite of what you would want out of a guided trip the

anti-guide yeah and people are like how did you make those videos if you've never even fished with a guide i'm like well it's like you know i don't it doesn't take that much to figure out what a guide must do and then just do a shitty job of it i mean it's like what do they do they tie on flies and they tell you where to cast and they make you a sandwich. And all you have to do is be really bad at that. And I was. But as someone who has guided for a lot of years and hung out with a lot of guides, your approximation, be it over the top, is actually not that far off. Right.

Some of the angry, terrible guides who I've worked with and run trips with. It's funny because it's true. Exactly. of some of the angry, terrible guides who I've worked with and run trips with. It's a funny because it's true situation. Like you kind of, I can see why people ask that question because I personally assumed that you had been connected to guiding culture and had some experience with it. The guides would get ahold of me

and say that they loved it just because finally somebody got to say and do all the things that they've wanted to say and do for like 20 years. Oh, absolutely. You got to behave toward clients the way they wish they could behave toward clients. And I thought, you should get a new job.

If this is how you want to treat people, if this is what your job makes you feel like, you should probably like go be a banker or an accountant or something because that's terrible. But then I've gone out. You're assuming the guides have that skill set. Yeah. No, they don't know the the problem is though that you then go out with guides who have clients with them and you realize it's all the client's fault it's typically the client's fault they're to blame

and i'm on the guide side 100 the general public is they're horrible horrible. They can't – I mean the general public can't be trusted to be seated and at Applebee's and order confidently, let alone go out on a drift boat having never cast a fly line in their lives and expect them to act like nice or well or anything. So I don't – If you had to rate – do an honest job of this. Yeah. I don't. If you had to rate, do an honest job of this. If you had to rate yourself on a sliding scale of 1 to 10 as an angler, where would you put yourself? Six. You're a six. Yeah.

That's a good answer because you can't really say much higher than that because you'd look bad. Like if you said a nine, I'd be like, come on. Really? Well, I'll say this. I would maybe rate myself higher if we include sort of everybody there. Fly fishing, right? I mean, because there are a lot of – All that general public. We lump them all in. The general public you're just speaking of.

I mean, I'm talking about the guys that – Everyone who bought a that yeah well you have the guys that go out twice a year with a guide and they've got you know ten thousand dollars worth of equipment and they're going to drop all the money in the world on this guide and they're going to fly in and they're going to expect to be put on fish and they're going to call themselves a fly fisher. And they know absolutely nothing about fly fishing. They learned just enough to where they can kind of cast a little bit. And the guide knows because he wants a good tip of, you know, sort of where the easiest fish to catch are for this guy's inability to cast and get a good drift. And so these guys are, you know,

probably at a two. And so if we mix all of them in, I'm a six and a half. All day long. All day long. Yeah. Yeah. But if we're talking about really good anglers, we were talking about April Vokey earlier. If she's a 10, then I'm pushing it to call myself a six. Got you.

Yeah. I'm with you. Steve, I want to know, where would you rate yourself? Yeah. As an angler? As an angler. But I'm involved in too many kinds of angling. Steve, I want to know, where would you rate yourself? Yeah. As an angler? As an angler. But I'm involved in too many kinds of angling. No, no, no.

Don't take that for granted. Well, can we just say fly fishing? Or are we just talking about angling? Because if we're talking about angling as a whole, bass, gear, the whole thing, then I'm definitely a three. As a generalist. Yeah. I'm not comfortable rating. As a generalist, yeah. I'm not comfortable rating myself as a generalist angler.

I'll just do the one. I'll just do like he did. Six. Yeah. Six is good. Slightly better than average. Yeah, you don't look cocky. You don't look like you're trying to be like false modest. The bar is lower for the generalist angler. The bar is higher for the generalist angler. The bar is higher for the generalist angler.

Yeah, I'm with Steve on this. You got to know all kinds of different things. The generalist angler means all of everything. Right. So the general bar that you would have to be better than is probably lower because I don't think there are a gazillion guys out there that actually are that great of generalist anglers. A lot of folks focus on one species. Yeah, there's a lot of guys that can just crush it out here on the Yellowstone and you go ask them to go catch a catfish in the nearest reservoir. Wouldn't know where to start.

Well, okay, so they put a worm on it and they figured it out. I know where to start, a chicken liver. You know what I mean? No, I know exactly what you mean because when I think of a generalist angler, like for instance, offshore, right? Yeah. No clue. I have no clue. I know what you're saying, like the guy that just can go to the same stretch of river when it's good and just catch a bunch of fish.

I'm never interested in that guy. Or that knows how to fish some lake real well for some specific thing. Like, that's great. I'm glad for you. Like, I hope you have a good time. But in talking about like, is that where I would aspire to be as a fisherman? As a fisherman, in my mind, if someone asked me to articulate what is a great fisherman in my mind, it would be someone who can just, no matter where you put them, and there are guys like this,

no matter where you put them, they're going to catch fish. They just understand fish. They can figure anything out. You can send them to a state they've never been to, a river they've never been to a river they've never been to fish they've never seen before and at the end of the day they're catching fish that in my mind is great that in my mind is a great angler i'm a seven i already thought i thought i'm sitting here listening and i'm thinking i could i could probably catch that catfish offshore not a problem i'm a seven and a half easy the. The more you talk, the better I get.

Can you tie a Bimini twist? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah. If we had the Bimini materials here right now, I'd do it. I'd do it right now. Let me ask you this.

Yeah. I sense you don't fish. You haven't fished with guides. I have not. I have not. Do you feel that, I have now. But you have a little bit of a, you feel it's not as, it's not as, like if you were going to make a fish in purity scale.

Yeah. Which would be an interesting exercise. Yeah. You're going to make a fish in purity scale. I'm not going to get in trouble here. It's just going to, I'm going to get in trouble. Well,

it's getting uneasy. No, no, I don't, I think that's, that's a very subjective area to go, but let's, let's move on. Let's see where this goes. Oh yeah, it's entirely subjective. Well, I didn't say like if the universe were to come up with uneasy. No, no, I think that's a very subjective area to go, but let's move on.

Let's see where this goes. Oh, yeah, it's entirely subjective. Well, I didn't say if the universe were to come up with one. I said if you were to. Fair enough. If you. Me. Travis. Not you, Miles.

Settle down. Hank Travis. Yeah. Sam, have you guided? A little bit. Not professionally full-time, but here and there. No, okay. You dabbled.

Under the table. No, no, no. The question wasn't have you taught somebody how to fish. The question was, have you guided? At the end of this- I've gotten paid to teach people how to fish. So you've accepted. Okay, whoa, whoa.

Did you get a tip? Yeah. You guided. Done. Did you get drunk while you did it? Yeah. If you were going to make- Depending on which time.

If you were going to make a fish purity scale, I sense that you would have major deductions for guided expeditions. No, no, no, no, no. So, okay, let's back up, which is cool. Me, I don't care. No, no. talking about a specific breed of human being that considers themselves a 10 because they go out twice a year and have somebody show them exactly what that doesn't go and figure it out yeah that can only figure it out if somebody else figures it out for them holds their hand and does it people ask me all the time it's like how what's the best way to get into fly fishing? Hire a guide. Don't have your spouse teach you. Don't have your girlfriend teach you.

Don't have, hire a guide. Go out, hire a guide, take some classes. This is how. Because your girlfriend's going to yell at you. Well, yeah. And if you're anything like me, it's like if my daughters wanted to learn to fly fish and they don't, but if they did. Oh, your daughters don't fish? No. Can you hold that thought for a minute? Yeah gotta really come back to that yeah yeah hold that thought yanni yeah come back yanni's writing it down they do not fish they have like zero interest let's

talk about that i'm real disappointed in your girls yeah no i i and i i am i know you don't tell them every single day and and that and it goes back to me talking about, were you disappointed when they moved out? Hell no. They don't fish. They're on their own. I've cut them loose. They're not getting their college paid for.

Nothing. They're cut off 100% until they learn how to fish. When they want to learn how to fish, they're going to need to hire a guide. It's the same thing as- Maybe that's who keeps emailing Hank Pedersen. People are like, well, why wouldn't you teach him how to fish, they're going to need to hire a guide. It's the same thing as- Maybe that's who keeps emailing Hank Pedersen. Well, people are like, well, why wouldn't you teach him how to fish? I'm like, I didn't teach him how to drive because I don't want a situation where I want to punch one of my daughters. That's why I don't want to teach him how to fish. You shouldn't teach your children how to fish. Have somebody else teach them. Have them get them to a certain point where you can actually go out and have a good time.

Driving is the same sort of thing. So I never taught them. If people want to learn how to fly a fish, hire a guide. And if you're going to go to new water, you could not spend better money than to hire a guide. If you're going to go fish the Blackfoot. This is legit. You're getting this right now. This is legit.

I'm not declaring it legit. You're giving advice right now. My advice is if you're going to go fish some rivers, like say you're going to go and fish the Blackfoot or the Clark Fork or the Yellowstone, whatever, and you're going to be there for five days, money well spent on day one, have a guide. Get all the information you can out of that guide. And then if you want to go it alone from there, then go it alone. Do you feel like a real prick the next day?

All the time. When you're standing there. Right. And there he is with today's client and you're standing there angling away. Well, there's an etiquette surrounding that. What is, yeah. What is the etiquette there? You shouldn't go to a spot.

No, that's not true. Cause you paid him once there's an exchange of money what yeah i mean i understand i've heard you made that make that point before i've heard me on there made that point before oh i'm going back to the spot i i gotta hear this because if i i i'm going back i mean it it depends we discussed it sorry but we discussed it over um outfitting hunters oh yeah in the same ethical conundrum. What did I say that time? Same thing I'm saying now? Yeah.

That's consistency. I'm on your side, by the way, for this thing. I think man to man, it's like if you go, yeah, I mean, I think that would be kind of a betrayal of the guide's trust to be in his hole the next day. I mean, if he saw you there, he guide's trust to be in his hole the next day.

I mean, if he saw you there, he's probably going to be like, oh, man, come on, really? Here's the thing, though. I mean, you're going to hopefully, if you hired a guide, you're going to not fish a hole. You're going to fish a stretch of water, and you should certainly go back to that stretch of water with the knowledge that you now paid to have. Now, that being said, it's situation dependent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to throw a wrinkle into this. Okay. Because there is a significant issue with offshore guides and flats guides with clients

who pay them for a day, go out and have a GPS in their pocket hidden, marking waypoints on all the spots that they fish so they can then go and hit those spots subsequently with their buddies. And this is, this is not just frowned upon. This is like fighting behavior. People, people have had boats set alight over

this kind of, like, this is some Tom McGuane type, type shit that happens over this. Like 92 and the Graves. And this, this is what I'm referencing. Well, it just. And this is a new topic for me. I'm just throwing this out there. I wouldn't do it personally.

I wouldn't like the way it made me feel. But let's say I was commander of the universe. Okay? I'm commander of the universe. I'm listening. And the only punishment I give out is execution. Anyone guilty of any infraction, it's execution. And you come to me and a guy's like, I took him fishing,

and he paid me a bunch of money, and the next day he went to the spot. I would have a hard time executing that person. Now, if you said it is it a killable offense no probably not well that's all all right yeah i mean if that if that's our bar like off with his head or as you were when yeah when you were when you're taking commander steve works when you're taking the client out i I mean, how clear have you been? Have you educated them on the fact that, hey, look, I'm going to take you to some spots that I don't want you to come back to on your own without me?

Are you asking me like my own personal history? Yeah, can you say that to a client? If a guide were to say that to me and say, hey, look, we're going to go down this, you know, and I would appreciate that you don't come back here. Now, I think of flats and there's just different scenarios. Well, it doesn't matter. Who cares how deep the water is? Yeah. I don't know.

Because if you float a section. This water being. Shallow water. Off limits. But that deep hole, go ahead. Yeah. But look, if you floated a section of the Yellowstone.

Yeah. I mean, it's all fair game at that point. Cause you've floated whatever, six to 10 miles and you pulled over in a dozen different holes. Like nobody can say anything at that point, but I feel like on a Wade trip when you might have just fished a hole or two. Okay.

But I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to make this even a little more complicated because the, when I float a stretch of water the way I prefer to do it rather than just like doing the boat jockey thing and be like, no switch sides, no switch sides. I like to stop and actually fish holes with clients.

So certain clients I have told, Hey, this spot we're coming up to up here, you can get there by foot. You know, if you want to come do this on your own, cool. I do ask that you don't bring all your buddies. I've definitely done that in my guide career before. Why don't you guys come out with some little sheet of paper? Yeah.

It wouldn't be like enforceable, but just some little sheet of paper that expresses what you feel about it. Because I think that you're asking a lot of some, like, let's say, okay. I did a, I fished with the guide recently. We went to St. Martin. Okay. I had to go to St. Martin for two days for a birthday party, very special birthday party for a very special friend. And me and some other dudes that were there wanted to go fish.

And we hired a guy to go for a half day of fishing. Now, we just kind of wandered around looking. Yep. The old half day. Hey, man, I'm trying to stay married, right? I got you. Now, we go out and just walk to shore looking for stuff, work, and bait and cast.

And one thing I was like, wow, I had no idea it was this. It's this easy? I could have done this. I don't need a guide for this. So does that then mean in your mind, in your mind, does that then mean that I should refrain from fishing because he introduced me

to the idea of walking down the beach looking for bait. Yeah, but he selected that particular shoreline. Right. And if you were back there the next day, he might have other clients there. And if you were on the beach in front of him, I feel like that affects his ability to do his job with the next group of clients. Yeah, it'd be very awkward. But whereas the Yellowstone floating a stretch

and you're not really getting in anybody's way because there's going to be lots of other people there. But that particular shoreline, he probably walked it because it's good and he probably takes people there pretty regularly. I'm going to throw this out in a different way because here's what I, not that I've gotten to do this very often,

but the few times that I have gone somewhere like you're suggesting, Travis, and like, I'm going to fish here for a few days. I'm going to hire a guide for the first day. I will have an explicit conversation and say, hey, listen, I'm here for X number of days. I'm hoping to fish throughout those days. This is the only day that I'm going to be guided.

So one, I'd love to have a good time and learn something about your fishery. And two, could you please give me some suggestions on places I might go fishing? I've done that too. That's a great idea. That's the way that I do that. And also in doing your idea, which I love, throw out there.

I'll never come back here. I'll never be back again. Like chances are. Yeah. My wife's at home. She's sick. She got sick from the water. I'm not coming back here.

I'll never be back. I'm not going to even remember the trip. Start your day like that. I just want to start by saying I'll never be back. I'm not going to even remember this trip. Start your day like that. I just want to start by saying you will never see me again. This is the last time you're ever going to see me, unless you stumble upon me fishing this water. You're going to see me at that point. Hank Patterson's take on this entire thing, if I could just jump into that, would be that you're going to sign that piece of paper and it's in perpetuity. And now I'm going to take you, I'm going to show you a

stretch of water, right? And now every time you fish that stretch of water, you don't have to pay the full price, but you are going to pay me $50. A royalty. A royalty in perpetuity. And this is going to go for the rest of your life so for the rest of your life and by the way every single fly that i put on your line that works is now a dollar it's a dollar to me every time you buy that fly so if i tie on a royal wolf every time you buy a royal wolf at whatever fly shop across the country you now owe me a dollar for having introduced you to that specific fly and i think that takes care of the problem right there because now now eventually you just kick back on commissions exactly yeah you'll be done yeah you're out of

the game so all those flats guys and everything and i have not gone out and fished with them but i've word on the street is they're all pissed off. And so now these guys, you know, you do it for like three years. You take out enough people and you get, you know, a legal document signed where in perpetuity, if they ever want to fish in the state of Florida again, within 100 yards or 100 miles of where you took. Well, if they want to fish that side of Florida ever again, it's $100 to you. And I think you get the states involved, and I think this is an enforceable thing. And then if you don't want to sign that paper, then it's a $15,000 date rate. Or good luck catching a permit by yourself.

Or good luck, yeah. Do you want to catch fish? Go for it, kid. Sign the document. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join.

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slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. What's your take on it? Because I think one of the funniest pieces of years is it's funny i i had always liked this but didn't even put it together because i'd liked it a long time ago and then i started watching other stuff you do and i was like oh my god that's the guy who did the um

the two dudes on the bank who are trying to find out, they're confused by catch and release. Yeah. That is by far the most popular video I ever made. It's not even close. And it was very unexpected. Do you remember what episode number that one is? No, I don't. It's Hank and the Baitfishers.

Hank and the Baitfishers. Sounds like a rock band. It's probably like a 15, I don't remember. It's probably 10 or 12 minutes. All my videos are longer than they say they should be. But I at the beginning of that episode, I'm talking I'm asking the guys why they're here. Why are you here? And one of them says, I guess I've always been a little fly curious. curious and when i wrote that and every episode i always try to write like what are people going to quote back at me and i thought this fly curious thing is going to be gold and i mean it was but then it goes into the catch me hank explaining the process of catch and release and he's like so and then you release it into a cooler no back into the water and then they start talking about like well if you're not going to catch them to eat them, aren't you just torturing fish? Which is a, you know, pretty solid question, really.

Something we've talked about here before. What happened was somebody went to YouTube and they grabbed that part of my video. They took the rest of it out and it got like 40 million views. And I'm like, oh, yeah. The shorty. Yeah, yeah, the short yeah yeah but also that you you're explaining um hank patterson's explaining well if you let him go then someone can catch him again yeah and the guy's like oh so you're fattening him up yeah they're just trying to wrap their heads around okay so you let him go to fatten him up so that

then you can keep him at a later date okay Okay. Shrewd. Shrewd. Sounds like a conversation we have around this office a lot. Yep. Yep. It's, well, and then that one, then I have the same group of guys out and we did a follow-up, and I think my imagination went wild and I named it Hank and the Baitfishers Part Two. And in this one, I'm explaining what is a fly because you've got the squirmy worm and you've got, I mean, streamers

and you've got beads. But that one raises some really interesting points. It really, it's a great question because all of a sudden you're fishing with a Rapala, it has a feather on it, so it's a fly rod, so that's a fly? Or what makes it a fly when it's not a fly at all?

What does make it a fly? Do you guys know? I have no idea. This is a longstanding shift. I call this a perfect example of a shifting baseline. Like if you think about the concept of the shifting baseline of what counts as fly fishing

or a fly, you can go way back. You know, if you want to go several hundred years back into England, it wouldn't count. Some people would say, well, if you want to go several hundred years back into England, it wouldn't count. Some people would say, well, if you're not fishing downstream, it's not fly fishing. Those guys who go, who cast upstream, they're not fly fishermen.

They're not of our stature. Hold on. Okay. Wow. I want to really, I want to really explore this, but I don't understand. I feel like, I feel like I could understand anything you say about this, but I don't understand that one. So there are two.

Because they think you should be, like, you can't cast up? No. Literally, you cannot cast upstream, like, even above parallel with yourself in certain styles of traditional fly fishing. And there are streams where that's codified, like, in river law. It is law. You will get thrown off the stream if you cast upriver. Give me the perspective.

I want you to role play. Ooh. Role play. That's going to be good. Use a different voice, dude. Give me the perspective of the guy. Use an English accent. Yeah, with an English or Scottish accent.

Yeah, do it. That's not going to work. Yes, it will. The guy doesn't think you should cast kind of upstream or Scottish accent. That's not going to work. The guy who doesn't think you should cast kind of upstream. British accent. Right. Well,

don't think I'm going to do that. I think the issue... When I have to do one, I always go to things I learned from Pink Floyd albums. Every time you go... I was telling you about that. Brick in the wall part three. How many, if you don't eat-

How many pudding? I cannot, I think I'm going to blow this because I really don't know the exact answer to your question. But I think what it is, is that there was a belief that casting upstream was essentially like cheating. Because if your fly is just drifting down the

current, then, you know, the fish are just getting eaten. And the fish look upstream. That's easy. It's harder to get up above them. But to have to cast across and swing your fly in front of the fish and get them to eat. Now that requires real skill and angling prowess.

Okay. I'll buy that. So again, this is. I will not buy that. No, no. Because there's. Well, think about this way. Anytime I, this is- I will not buy that. No, no. Because there's- Well, think about this way. Anytime I want to get a guy out that has never fly fished, the first thing I do is I find

a rising fish, I put him upstream of it so he can just basically pull out some line, doesn't cast it, just chuck it in there. He floats it down to him. Just chuck it and float it down to him. I'm not saying this theory is right. Okay. I'm just- I was asked to role play.

That's it. I hadn't even thought of that. I feel like if you said to me, you can spend your whole life casting upstream or downstream. Yeah. And your goal in life is to catch as many fish as possible. I would pick downstream. I would too. Yeah, me too.

No question. So I could see having a river with a snooty English guy who says you can only cast upstream. They have that too. Oh, they do? Yep. Lay that argument out to me. I think you just did. Oh, okay.

But the point being that there are these totally arbitrary divisions that have been created within, and I think fly fishing is particularly guilty of this this and it's part of why it's so much fun to make fun of it. I think this is what puts the joy in it. These arguments. That's what puts all the joy in going out fly fishing, just having somebody tell you what you're doing wrong. Well, I mean, we. Wrong. You're casting it wrong.

Nope. Wrong drift. Downstream. That's not a fly. Not a fly. It's just, yeah, not a fly. Oh, that's what we're talking about. Tell me not a fly. Not a fly. Yeah, not a fly. Oh, that's what we're talking about. Tell me what a fly is.

Yeah, I have no idea. Here's one. I know when I see one. I know when I see one, but I can't. If I had to write, like if the folks over at Webster's or Miriam's said like, hey, we're trying to find someone to craft the definition of a fly, and we're tasking you with the chore i would have a very difficult time i've come to the conclusion all right i know it when i see it any any artificial thing

that you use with a fly rod that's just what i've come to but it's real feathers but well you have to have a feather well i'm not always but fly fishing could be a bead you know fly fishing could be the squirmy wormy fly fishing could be a mop fly they're now going to home depot buying mops lopping a chunk of that off tying it on a hook and this is now a fly and that's meant to replicate rotten flesh i don't know what it do you know what that replica like a maggot or something like that and why are you fishing in maggoty water it really brings that question i love that you're looking at me on this i actually have no expertise on the i'm looking at you because i'm like going down to the home depot and pulling this crap out right i mean you were a fishing guide

right for many many years so you would not have been too proud to tie a mop and a bobber on a guy's line god no i just i haven't but no pride at all. Anything to get that credit card out of his pocket at the end of the day. It would be that – I'm doing your guy's job for you. Wouldn't it be like whatever, a hooked device or whatever that is delivered not by its own weight, but is delivered by the weight of the line? That's a fly cast. I think that gets at it, but then there's another situation. And I'll make a plug for content on the Meat Eater website because we're just about to

publish a piece from our own Brody Henderson discussing this very thing. And one he brought in was a buddy of his who is not a good fisherman, went down to the Florida Keys. What's that guy's name? Travis something, wasn't he? Didn't name him by name, but went down to the Florida Keys and caught a couple permit and a couple bonefish in a place that's known for being extremely difficult to catch either of those species. They found out later the guide had been soaking the flies in ground up crab and clam juice and shrimp. And so that feels like a departure, but, you know, it's still delivered through the mechanism of a weighted line and a light fly. But is that fly fishing? And it might even be a fly with feathers, but that's not exactly what's getting it done

in that situation. So you feel that, I don't want to belabor the point here, but, uh, you feel that odorless, that odorless would be something that you would throw into the working definition. I'm, I'm not, I'm not taking a side on it. No, no, I'm just curious. Yeah, I feel like that's just a choice I would probably not make to do that. Would you cast an odorless fly into a chum slick? Well, and I went mako shark fishing off San Diego one time on a, quote, shark, uh, Mako shark fishing off San Diego one time on a fly quote unquote fly fishing trip.

And the only cast I made all day was just to feel out a 16 weight fly rod. But that's all we did is sit there all day looking at chumps like, but that's like how you raise those Makos up to be able to make a four foot cast while it circles the boat trying to eat you. Um, so I mean, I've, I've done that. I didn't have a problem with it. We didn't end up seeing any Makos, um, which I really wanted to eat you. So, I mean, I've done that. I didn't have a problem with it. We didn't end up seeing any makos, which I really wanted to see one. And I would have to buy one. Does anyone tie a fly that emits noise?

Yes. Yes. So that's okay. Well, like a rattle in it. What? Yeah, but not like electronically. How have I not made a video about this? You're comfortable with that?

You're in a little bit of a devil's advocate position. Okay, yeah. I'll play a devil's advocate. You're comfortable with noise. I'm comfortable with noise. So you're comfortable deceiving the fish visually. You're comfortable deceiving the fish orally. And I don't mean A-O-R, but A-U-R.

Am I using that right? Audibly. Aurally. Audibly. Yeah. How do you say it? Aurely. Because I know you don't want to deceive it.

That's disgusting. So you're going to trick it but you're not comfortable deceiving it in an olfactoral sense. I'm not comfortable with it. That's where you draw a line. I draw a line. And to echo Brody's point sensual sectoral sense. I'm not comfortable with it. That's where you draw a line. I draw a line. But hell, I mean,

and to echo Brody's point that I definitely resonated with is like at that point, just throw in a shrimp. I don't have a problem with bait fishing. Oh yeah, I know we're not getting into you think you did something bad, but I'm just saying like

get into like what your personal terms are. Yeah, I think you're not. But the shrimp doesn't stay on through the fly cast. That becomes the problem. Well, I think you're not... But the strength doesn't stay on through the fly cast. That becomes the problem. Well, I'm saying with a spin rod. But yeah, I feel like at that point

you're not really fly fishing because you're not deceiving the fish through the action of the fly itself. They're grabbing it because it smells good. And so I feel like that is a fairly clear departure from what fly fishing is in my mind. Give me the Hank Patterson take on this. I'm going to add ham juice to my floating. I'm going home.

I'm adding ham juice to my floating. That's all there is to it. I don't, you know, I mean, Hank would absolutely dip the fly in any smelly whatever, but he would threaten your life while doing it he'd be like i'm gonna dip this in this ham juice and if you ever say anything at all i will kill you i will track you down and i will kill you i will start with your parents i will start with your children you will die but he would he would do it as long as it was a secret yeah yeah so that guy so what so the real crime of what this guy did as far as dipping is tell anybody.

Right. I mean, that's the crime. Well, it sounds like they didn't find out until quite a while later. Because he had all the makings, right? He got, I assume he got a picture of himself with the fish, with the fly in its mouth. That's all you had. And then all, somebody snitched. Somebody spoke up.

This guy let the cat out of the bag. So I say, let him fry. Let him fry for not being able to be quiet about it but i have no problem with him dipping it in ham juice or whatever i think it was shrimp juice but yeah yeah crab juice ham might work even better i think this is one of the like central reasons why fly angling gets a well-deserved bad rap is arguments just like this this is my next question well I'm sorry to preempt you, but I'm going to,

I'm going to, I'm going to continue on. It is arguments like this that do. Yeah. I think, I think there are probably people listening right now going like, Jesus Christ, why,

who cares? Like what, what, why does any of this matter? And the truth is people saying that right now. I do. I do. I absolutely think so.

About the topic, about what, wait, what? No, the, the, I absolutely think so. About the topic? About what? Wait, what? No, the, the, the, like. This concept of purity, like it started with this idea of the purity scale, which to me gets at this assumption that there are greater and lesser ways of catching fish.

And I think that fly anglers often get pigeonholed as being those guys who judge the way that other people fish as lesser than themselves, because maybe they're egotistical pricks that's possible, or maybe they've just been conditioned into this culture that values one thing over another, I personally would, and to tie this back to another conversation, I would rather be known as someone who's a good angler than solely an exceptional fly angler.

And I think that flying, like we have created people who fly fish have created this ethos for themselves that makes them really easy to make fun of and to consider to be, you know, jerks because they say, well, you caught that on bait or you caught that on a crab soak fly, or you caught this on something that's not as good as what I did.

Who cares? You're going out and fishing and you're having fun as long as you're respecting the resource and you're staying within the law, who cares how you caught the fish? Whatever makes you happy is the way you should do it. And I think that the whole flying league community could do better to just kind of step down and relax a little bit. There can be an appreciation for somebody catching it in a way that does make it

more difficult. Well, that starts to more difficult. Well, who cares? That starts to fall apart. Well, if I'm casting it, it's definitely on a bare hook. Catch it on a bare hook. If it's all about what makes it hard, then put nothing on there. Yeah. It's so right for posing extremes.

Yeah. Well, and then the argument comes in. You caught it on a bare hook. Is it because you're good or you found really stupid fish? Or they accidentally ate it. They accidentally inhaled it. I'll tell you, when I used to guide on the bighorn early season, one of the dirtiest tricks in the book for those guides would be to take a bare,

giant, bright red hook and fish that because those fish just attacked it. And among the guiding community, that, that was a thing that was looked down upon. Like it was a baby, it was a baby San Juan worm. No, it was huge. It was like, it was a big Gamakatsu octopus hook in red, had to be red.

Yeah. And it was a dirty, dirty trick. What makes it, yeah. So much cleaner than a mop fly? Again, I'm not saying, like, among the community of people who were fishing there. Because there wasn't a piece of yarn attached to it. That's why it was dirty. Do you know about this?

Oh, yeah. I used to fish it. I used to always fish them underneath my bead, because then it was still like you're fishing. Instead of just fishing a bead and a hook, now you're fishing a bead and a sand wand. Spaghetti and meatballs. I'd be talking about how long it took me to tie it. Do you tie your own flies? I tied these.

I tied this whole box of them last night. I had no time at all. There's just nothing greater than catching a fish on a fly that you tied, and I tied this one. And it's just raking fish. It's fantastic. But I think this points the figure at how ridiculous the whole thing is. You came up with the most difficult thing to think of like, well,

just a bare hook. And there are people within this community who go like, well, that's cheating. These are the level of ridiculous rules that we have placed upon ourselves. It's like we're in a contest. It's like you're not going to, it doesn't matter. Like you're not gonna it doesn't matter like you're not winning a trophy or a prize yeah which also brings up i got asked the question on a on a thing recently an interview where they were asking me how i felt about fly fishing competitions expecting me to

say oh my god that's the most horrible thing i've ever heard that somebody would have a fly fishing competition you tell me what that is and and well like you go out and and you have like a tournament you know fly fishing like a bass tournament you don't bring them back home with you no no no i mean you probably have to have a judge with you to measure it because it's all about you know length and like actual size doesn't matter right right? It's just all about length as long as it's 18 inches and a half a pound is better than a four pound, 17 inch fish. But people get really upset about the notion that you would have any sort of a derby or tournament in fly fishing, like they would in bass fishing or something like that. And the question came to me on how I felt. And I thought, well, I don't't i'm pretty sure i'm not the fun police i don't care i mean if as long as they're respecting the resource and

what do i care how they go and enjoy their day and if they want to have a derby or a tournament catching fish and measuring it doesn't sound interesting terribly to me like i don't want to go do it i mean i don't need the disappointment in my life because I'm not going to win, you know? And it's like, I get made fun of enough. I don't need to also go out and prove that I'm not a six, I'm a two. So I wouldn't do it. But he had had somebody else that he had interviewed a couple of weeks prior that was adamantly against it and thought it was absolutely destroying fly fishing and the world of fly fishing and the history of fly fishing was, Oh yeah.

That it just, it just takes everything, everything that he thinks fly, that he thinks fly fishing should be about, uh, is, is. I see both sides of that because,

because I, I, I understand, I understand that perspective and it makes me slightly uncomfortable to see kind of the carnival aspect, the carnival atmosphere surrounding bass fishing or fly fishing. And whereas I see those sports as, you know, personal time and opportunity to hang out with friends and commune with nature. And I mean, it's very, it's deeply spiritual to me, but at the same time, I think it's also inherently competitive. Anytime you put two guys in a boat, they're trying to do better than the other one. So it's just kind of a logical extension of that on the other hand.

Well, I'm with you on the fact, I don't want to do it. It doesn't sound interesting to go to the tournament to me but that's a personal choice and and and you're absolutely right i mean you know the biggest lie that i've ever told in fly fishing was oh well i'm glad at least one of us caught a fish i don't care if i'm out fishing with a friend i don't care if he you know caught a fish i want to catch a fish him catching a fish might make it no not even mine it makes it worse that i didn't if i'm gonna get skunked if i'm not gonna catch anything then i was a fish you could also not to have caught anything i want to return and i'll admit that oh i want to return to parody

from it but i realized uh we never we never finished the thing about jail. Right. You've been to jail, Miles? I have been in handcuffs multiple times, but I've never been booked. So they cuffed you. Yeah. And then they let you go. Yeah. They detained you. I was detained.

I have been detained more than once, but I've never been, I've been to the station. I've never been booked. They keep changing their mind? I think the last time it happened, I was 16. Oh, okay. So I think they were just trying to, you know, scare me straight. And I may have had a wayward youth.

And so I had a few run-ins with the local cops. Yanni? Never coughed or been in jail. You've been coughed. Coughed once. You've been thrown in jail. You've been incarcerated. Nope. No.'ve been thrown in jail you've been incarcerated nope

no i've not i i'm we were talking about this before i think i'm good at talking talking to cops i'm very polite and deferential which is what my dad taught me just apologize a lot and so that's that's what i you know that's what i do and i i got you're like i got my friends and i'm so sorry that i shot that guy in college i got my friends and i out of a lot of trouble whenever whenever cops would show up at our house that had 300 people in it and loud music playing at two in the morning you would have got it ran out in the yard i was i was the one i was the the designated police liaison. Yeah. I had to spend one night in jail, and my goodness did it. I came out of it wanting to live a cleaner life.

It had its effect. How old were you? 22. Old enough to know better. A little drinking. Yeah. A little drinking. Yeah, a little drinking. Yeah.

A little drinking. I got charged with resisting arrest, which I thought was a trumped up charge. That was a stretch. It was a stretch. You didn't call him, sir. It was a stretch. When he went to cuff me, it surprised me. So I naturally with instinct took over.

They went to cuff me and it startled me. So I went to withdraw. If he had said, I'm going to cuff you now, I would have held out my hands like they do in the movies. Please do. But he came at me quick. Snuck up on him like a magician. Boy, did I write a letter of apology.

I wish I had a copy of the letter of apology I wrote to that officer. That's where you really knew the writing career was going to pay off when you got through that one. It was heartfelt. It was heartfelt. You got ahead of me and took it away from me. You said you hadn't been in jail. Are you finished with your jail story? You just told me you hadn't been to jail.

I know. I was on to the next thing. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm not. Okay. Sorry. I'm asking you. I know. I was on to the next thing. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm not. Okay. Sorry. I'm asking you. I thought I had a second to jump in there.

Jump in. Yeah. But go ahead. Now that I'm through talking about jail, if you'd like to change the subject, please. Well, I had a good opportunity at a Segway, but you stole it by going back to the jail thing. But I was thinking that all these arguments that we have within the fly fishing space, is that maybe a reason that your daughters don't fish?

Oh. Hmm. The argument? The argument. Everything we just were discussing, like the purity of fly fishing and what makes, what's the definition

of fly fishing and all this stupid stuff that really doesn't matter. Huh. Making it not fun. Yeah. Is this stupid stuff that really doesn't matter? Huh. Making it not fun. Yeah. Is that maybe why your daughters don't fish? Yeah, I don't think so.

I mean, they just from an early age showed well before the argument of what it means to fly fish came into play. They just never showed an interest in fly fishing. I say that and then I kind of think, well... Were you trying to make them fishermen? No, I mean, I took them out a couple of times. I mean, they fished. I mean, I took them out. How do you not view this as like the greatest failure

that a person could ever experience? Well, I mean, we all have our own path. You know, there's certainly, it's unfortunate that they don't enjoy fly fishing, but they do enjoy, you know, going out outside, you know, to like get in a car. On the way to the mall? Yeah, I mean, the outside certainly leads to, yeah, like a restaurant or the mall or a friend's house or something like that.

How many times did you try to- They're what you would call indoorsy. How many times did you take them fishing? When they were growing up, we drug them along. And maybe that's it. Just what I just said. We drug them along.

Dragging people doesn't usually inspire. Maybe this was their way of, you know, going against me. You know, we'll show him. We won't learn to fish. That was their rebellion was to not learn how to fly fish. You know, maybe that's it. How old are they? My oldest daughter is 27 and my youngest daughter is 21 have they been to jail well one of them probably should should

go to jail uh you know for a couple of days you know just to set set her on a path uh the other one is is probably doesn't need jail at this point. She's a nurse working with dementia and Alzheimer's patients. And actually, she just got a new job. She works with hospice. So she doesn't need to go to jail.

Now the other one. And I don't want to call her out, Zoe. But, you know, Zoe could, you know, maybe like a three-year stretch. Just something to straighten her out, you know, kind of get her on the right path. You work hard. Light the fire. Bimini twists.

That's what she's in there. Well, so we've worked with the prison in Boise and the prisoners tie flies for the real recovery retreat in Idaho. Seriously? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And so I could get her on that program if she was in the joint. Explain that to me.

How's that work out? I got a phone call. One of the guys, one of the wardens out there likes Hank Patterson and got in touch with me and said, hey, I'm a warden out at the prison. Oh shit. You know, uh, what did I do? Are you looking for Zoe? Have not seen her. Yeah. We haven't seen her in a long time. Um, uh, so anyway, he got ahold of me and he said, Hey, so I, uh, I do a thing. We, we have a program out here where, and this guy fly fishes,

right? So, you know, this, this was a racket. This guy's, this guy wants free flies. And so, uh, no, good dude. And, and so anyway, so he, he said they had a thing out there in that, uh, as long as it was a, uh, not-for-profit organization that they could tie flies and give them to us and, and we are. So, uh, yeah. So they, every year they tie a box for the guys and and then we get to say hey we had some prisoners tie these flies for you guys and so here yeah so it's a pretty cool program yeah you want me to stump you guys on a piece of fly fishing trivia yeah i do ready for this yeah go bring it on name for me the two countries the two leading commercial fly tying countries, but not the U.S. Thailand and Cambodia?

Kenya. How'd you know that? I've worked in this industry for so long. Thailand and Kenya. I would have guessed Thailand. I did not know Kenya. Kenya for sure. I would guess Kenya is number one.

I would guess Cambodia as well. Does it? Yeah. Sri Lanka is up there too, aren't they? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maybe I'm wrong. No, I should have said this.

That would make a difference. Name two countries, not the leading. Just in leaving there. I started getting in there a little over my waders, you know, by like the leading, like the leading. I just meant like name a couple of countries. I thought you, I was thinking of hobbyists, like where people happen to tie flies. Not where they were

commercially manufactured. Talk about fly sweatshops is what we're talking about. All your flies come from sweatshops, just so you know. I don't tie flies. Very sad places. Yeah, good. Really? Oh, yeah. No, not all though. I'm overselling.

They're actually, and there are a couple of programs'm, I'm, I'm overselling. I'm overselling. They're, they're actually, and, and there are a couple of programs and I'm, I'm totally blanking on the name. Maybe Sam, you can help me remember this one, but there's a new fly company that came out in the last couple of years that is actually working with local communities as like a way to bring people up out of poverty.

Yeah. I know, I know of one outfit in Honduras that is doing that. I think it's fly fish for change. Yeah. It's, it's something like that. Uh, I think it's, it's not quite that, but it's is doing that. Like Fair Trade Fly Time. I think it's Fly Fish for Change. Yeah, it's something like that. I think it's not quite that, but it's similar to that. But there are some bad actors in that world who actually pay people terribly, and that's why fly is so cheap.

And then there are other companies who are trying to pay people a living wage and make it better. Fly producing companies like Umpqua and Montana Fly Company have very good working conditions and pay much higher wages than many of the other opportunities around those areas. And I know they take that quality control very, very seriously and visit their facilities a lot. But I know there are also some real sweatshop situations going on fair trade flies man that's the company i'd start yeah i mean just i'd go get them cheap as i could get them fair to me trade fair enough is that sub three dollars what is it that, what in your mind makes, like, what in your mind makes a culture or group of people parody-able? That's not a word, but you know what I'm getting at. That's pretty good.

Parody-able? Parody-able, yeah. Ripe. I'm fine with it. Ripe for parody? I think if you get a group of people that take something very very seriously that it is ripe for parody and now i i've been asked you know do you think that fly fishers take themselves too seriously and i and the answer is no i don't i don't it's not up to me how serious you want to be

about fly fishing or anything else in your life so you take it as seriously as you want um that's not my job so i don't you know but it does make it easy to make fun of you um and and your sport and and what you like to do and and i'm one of them i mean i'm just i'm making fun of myself as well i mean there, there's nothing I don't think mean spirited about the stuff that I do. It's just too easy to take something that is so serious. And there's so many arguments surrounding it. What's right? What's wrong? I mean, what's better? What's you know, is nymphing actually fly fishing is there's so many arguments. And all those arguments that we've been talking about for the last hour are exactly what makes it parodyable is that it's it's also something that you know when i make the

joke people start tagging their friends and so you know you've hit the nail on the head because this is this is oh that's you, Tom, this guy just nailed you. This guy's got you. You know, and so you just start to know that that one worked because people are now tagging each other in it. And so it's like the argument about whether what makes a fly a fly is nymphing really, you know, like a trashy way to fish or is dry fly fishing the only real fly fishing. All those things and all the seriousness in which people have these arguments uh it just makes it really really fun to to parody you know uh take a guy like take a guy like jeff foxworthy who does parody yeah um

i would venture to guess that most of his audience is that his audience is not wholly but i would guess largely comprised of the subjects of his parody rednecks right right isn't that i think everybody likes it but that's who takes the greatest joy in it because it's done from a place of love. It's like his humor. He's like, he parodies rednecks from a position of love and respect.

Yeah. And I'm one of you, right? Yeah. Uh, is most of your audience, people who think that fly fishermen are self-righteous, annoying assholes,

or is most of your audience fly fishermen? I think it's fly fishermen. Yeah. You know, I mean, I've had people tell me that they got into fly fishing because of the fact that they watched my videos. Because they thought it was like, oh, I just thought it was a bunch of, like,

you know, tweed jacket with the leather on the elbows sort of assholes, and then I watched your videos and I'm like, oh, no, this is sort the leather on the elbows, sort of assholes. And then I watched your videos and I'm like, oh no, this is, this is sort of a fun thing. I'll try it out. Um, it's, it's fly fishermen. And, and, uh, I think it's people that, you know, just think it's fun to be made fun of and think fun to make fun of themselves. And, and I think most of them realize it's, it's a joke. I'm just kidding around. But everything that Hank does comes from a place of logic. So if you watch him, I mean, as illogical as it is, you can follow his logic. You know, the catch and release thing.

There's an absolute logic to it. So I just try to pick up on conversations that I have with guys out fly fishing or the arguments they have or the different videos. And I mean, how many more videos do we need on how to tie a certain knot? It's like I was going to make a video that, you know, it's like, you know, people are calling me and they're asking me, Hank, how do I tie a surgeon's knot? And so what you're going to want to do is you're going to want to get two pieces of what you tip it and you're going to line those side by side. Now you're going to get a smartphone. You're going to go to Google and you're going to type in, how do I tie a surgeon's knot? There's 7,000 videos. Find the shortest one. There you go. And, and so it's just, you know,

I think that the audience for Hank Patterson is definitely people that fly fish, hardcore fly fishers like it and guides like it. And some of them absolutely hate me. That's the next question because you're familiar with the movie Spinal Tap. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't know if it's true, but let's just pretend it's true. I heard that...

I wish I knew if this is true. Yanni, type in the cult and Spinal Tap. Let's not pretend that what I'm going to tell you is true. The singer from the cult has got some kick-ass songs. The singer from the cult was insulted by Spinal Tap.

Oh, yeah. He was insulted by a rock parody. Is that true? Really? Let's just say it was. Yeah. For a minute until we find out that it's not um do you do a lot of fly fishermen get annoyed that you goof on it so hard i don't know about a lot i mean it's it's like as far as comments that i read or emails that i get

i don't get a ton of people that will like actually email me every now and then, or I'll get comments on my videos and stuff like that. And it, it really is, you know, hundreds or more to one. Um, but every now and then somebody absolutely hates what I do and they hate me and it gets, it can get really personal. I read one, one time a guy had written like I, at least three paragraphs on how he was going to – because I was wearing an Orvis hat, he was going to return everything he had ever bought from Orvis because of my video and how much he now hated – he extended it to them. He now hated them as well for supporting what I did. And that guy takes himself too seriously probably but but comedy you know i'll say this is that i don't get offended if somebody doesn't think that i'm funny because comedy is absolutely subjective just because you don't think i'm funny doesn't mean that it isn't funny it means that it

isn't funny to you now when i'm comfortable i'm sort of comfortable when those people i think some stuff is objectively funny almost almost yeah yeah but meaning like if somebody says i don't think hang patterson is funny the guy is obnoxious he is obnoxious you know and if you don't like my style of of comedy or you don't like the things that i do i think that's fine but now when it's personal and you start telling other people that they shouldn't like me, or you start threatening to take your gear back, because then, you know, now it's all about you. It isn't about the fact that, I mean, you can just stop the video and move on. I mean, you don't have, the guy also had typed in there that he's like, I've watched three of your videos. And I thought you should have stopped at one,

like, like two minutes into the first one like like well maybe he's the one who needs to see it the most i've seen yeah i mean you're getting at a funny mentality yeah i've seen um i put a lot of images and stuff up on instagram which i like that platform a lot yeah because i think that people go into facebook just to fight. People log into Facebook, they're already pissed. Yeah. You know, they're like, ooh, that Donald Trump. You know, they go into Facebook like with that attitude, right? Yeah.

But Instagram people are kind of chill. But still you see stuff like, you'll see you put a thing up and you'll see a little art of some guys being like, oh, you know, this guy, he's the worst guy in the world. And a guy would be like, yeah, I gave up on him long ago. I'm like, but hold on.

It's like, hold on a minute. You're in my, you're like, hold on a minute. You're in my Instagram account carrying on a dialogue about an, you scroll, like, what does giving up on something look like to you? You haven't given up so much. We'll still got to monitor it, yeah. That it isn't taking 45 minutes of your Monday afternoon to comment about me and how you've given up on me. Yeah. Because some of that.

Unfollow. Some of that hatred you get though. Like, do you think it's because there's a lack of understanding of satire? Like, do you think that those are folks who just don't understand the concept of satire and are taking it seriously and going, this guy's an asshole. My favorite is. Why would I follow that? I did an episode, How to Survive Yellowstone National Park.

I remember it well. And it starts with 32 million people visit Yellowstone National Park every single day. And it goes on to say like these ridiculous numbers, 42,000 people die, you know, and then it just starts to stay the F away from grizzly bears. That's all the advice that Hank gives. So it gives these ridiculous statistics and uh this lady commented on there and she's like this is ridiculous i don't think any of this is true i live in the yellowstone area and all you're doing is getting people afraid to come here and we rely on those tourism dollars and to say that 32 million people visit every single day is ridiculous it's not even close and i thought wow she did not understand satire whatsoever and i feel like satire is a is a dying art i think people are like yeah taking things in the media just so literally now we're

so conditioned to take things literally yeah and for sensationalism's sake that the idea of like and things are so sensational that are like just in our basic media that feel like satire and like we're losing the concept of satire entirely i'll say it makes me sad i love satire i think hank is at his best and you know and there's varying degrees even for me i mean i watch the videos and it's like oh man i really, I really like that one. And, you know, I mean, there's varying degrees to how funny they might be. And if you make enough stuff, I mean, you make some stuff that hopefully everything you put out, you believe in. And I do. I've made videos that I've never put out because I'm like, it's not funny enough. Do not put it out. And so there's varying degrees. But I think Hank Patterson is definitely at his best when it blurs the line between like, is this is this guy serious? Is this you know, I mean, if you start to like really question it, then I think that that he's at his best, which gets harder and harder to do because people now know who Hank Patterson is. I talked to a lot of people were like, I saw your first two videos and I had no idea if this was a joke, which I thought, well, then you're an idiot because they're, I mean, they're clearly a joke, but still it sort of like, like rides that line of anything that you can identify with. And it's close to home is, is I think where it's at its best.

And that's where satire is at its best. Yeah. It's like when you go, yeah, I'm that guy. Yeah. I've met a lot of Hank Pattersons on the road. I love you. Yeah, that was the next thing

I was going to ask you about. As much as it's fun to laugh about how sanctimonious fly fishermen are, right? And how prissy they are and like uptight they are and weak they are and a feat they are, right? And how prissy they are and, and, like,

uptight they are and weak they are and a feat they are. Whatever. Are they? Do you know what I mean? Like, are they?

I don't think so. Because that's what's funny. It's like, no, my experience is it's a pretty laid back group of people. That's what I'm saying. Like, there's all the things,

but then, like, dudes that I hang out with, they're just, these guys fishing. It's like people going fishing. Yeah. So where hang out with, they're just... These guys fishing. It's like people going fishing. Yeah. So where did it come...

It's sort of this thing that it exists because the parody. Yeah. But Hank Patterson isn't that. Hank Patterson is a blowhard. Yeah. He's not super purist. He's just a blowhard. Yeah.

Yeah, there's nothing purist about him. He's just... So blowhard. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing purist about him. He's just. So it doesn't play on that. But you know what I'm saying? Like what happens when something, when we have this, there's this cultural understanding of a thing. And it exists because of the joke about it. For instance, the 80s. Okay.

We goof on the 80s. When people goof on the 80s, they're goofing on goofing on the 80s. Okay. We goof on the 80s. When people goof on the 80s, they're goofing on goofing on the 80s. Right. Not the reality of the 80s. Like the same thing with the 60s. The narrative of the 60s is now driven by parody. Yeah. Everything about the 60s is a reference to the parody we've created about the 60s.

The 80s has become like, it's like a parody of a parody. Yeah. You know, like it's, you don't recollect what it was like. You recollect what it's like when people goof on it. Yeah. And that's what you've come to think it was like. So who is the, like, where are the real asshole fly fishermen? Give me some names.

Give me some names. They're out there. I mean, they're certainly out there. Who are they and what do they do because it seems like just like kind of like chill people that like to be outside and fish yeah i i think it's it's it's i mean it's somebody that uh what what makes it again really parodyable is how serious we all take it and me included right and you get into these discussions about flies and about you know different ways to drift a fly and how to cast a line and double haul and this and that.

And it's just all the things that and the thought processes and the seriousness that go into just trying to trick a fish into hitting a hook is ridiculous in and of itself. And then there are guys that get really into that and and just can go out and have a good time. And then there are guys that really do want to be better than everybody else and really do take it very seriously. And if people don't do it, you know, the way that they think it should be done, then, you know, they're just assholes in the world. I mean, they're just people in the world, no matter whether they fish or don't fish. So clearly there are people that fly fish that are, you know,

that take all that seriousness that we all have and they just add their their assholestness to it but but does it even over index meaning like okay we look like you just take americans over index check this out i did not okay good good good good if you going to go and take, you're going to take a random sampling. You're going to randomly sample 1,000 Americans. Then you're going to count up how many assholes you got. Right. Like whatever number.

Okay. So there we have our figure. You got 800 out of 1,000. Right. You take 1,000 fly fishermen. Is it 800? No, no. I don't know.

I don't think so. I don't. Maybe two or three. Maybe two or three. I'll say like I go around to a lot of fly fishing shows and fish with strangers quite a bit just because you'll go do shows. And so the guys take you out fishing. And I rarely run into somebody that i'm like this guy's just a douche i i don't you know it's typically like people that are pretty like-minded

and and uh you know i i don't run into a lot of jerks to be honest with you um i i mean they're they're out there clearly but i just don't i don and maybe it's. But to call back a conversation we were having just a couple hours ago about the fly shop guy. This is the guy you guys know? I've been in that situation. He's a trope. Yeah. The fly shop guy is a trope. Like an armchair angler who hangs out in fly shops.

No, it's, it's, it's the, the, the kid, you generally mid twenties thinks they're like the most hardcore angler. The only job they can get is working in a fly shop. Behind a desk. And they're bitter at all the people who come in and know less than them and need to exert, flex their knowledge over everybody who walks in the door who asks them a question. And to continually reinforce their own identity as an expert by diminishing the clients who come in the door. Yeah. And this is a government that we were just talking about.

People literally walk in the door to be educated, to get some information, to spend their money, and they're demeaning to them. And they talk down to them and they roll their eyes at them. It's the record store guy. You know, it's the Jack Black in High Fidelity character. Absolutely. The customers are absolute pain in the asses. They're coming in. You're trying to tie up some flies.

You're thinking about what you're going to be, you know, where you're going to be fishing later in the afternoon. And now this son of a bitch walks through the door. Wanting to buy something. He wants to buy something and interrupt my day and ask me questions. And he's the guy that, as opposed to saying, well, they're hitting on spruce moths is like, shit, man, I had to figure it out. You figure it out. There's a lot of those guys that do not want to give out information because I figured it out.

I'm like, just on your own, like nobody ever told you anything. Well, I mean, I went out with my dad well maybe this guy didn't have a dad and he came into your shop and your answer for him not having a dad is to shit on him and so you know what I mean though I mean there is that there's that like well you know I had to figure it out I mean if you ever asked a guy on on a on a river it's like that's doing well it's like oh man you're doing good what are they hitting on and i mean you get a look like i just asked for his pin number what are they hitting on you know i just i've got your credit card here can you give me your zip code i mean it's like just why is that crappy question it's because he just discovered a lot of people know what they're

hitting on and sharing that sort of information now that's another thing people can argue about what what how much information you should share and what people should have to figure out on their own but uh yeah hey folks exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear from the canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada.

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onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. I was listening to an interview with a linguist one time and the linguist was talking about tracking trends in language trends and phrasing. And they were just saying there's a thing that they'd be interested in looking at because they think it would be solvable as when did waitresses start saying, are you still working on that? There's a point in time you'll go back and no one said that. Like no one said that to your father when he was a child. This is like a linguist explaining this. Like no one said to your father when he was a child. This is like a linguist explaining this. Like no one said to your father when he was a child, are you still working on that?

And then it came from somewhere and spread. And it's like a kind of thing that was explained, like a kind of thing they like to spend their time on. How did these things start? fishing community, like a thing they do that I'll never understand is blank river is fishing well today. No other type of angler. Yeah. No other type of angler on the planet would say that. The Blackfoot is fishing well today. No person would say, no bass fisherman, no tuna fisherman, no catfish fisherman would ever utter the words, blank is fishing well today.

The Pacific is fishing well today. The Gulf Stream is fishing well. There is so many of those. They would not say it. I challenge you to find me someone to say it outside of this very specific context. It's fishing well today. I picture it's best said holding a glass, swirling a glass of red wine. My favorite of those types of statements that I don't know, but I would guess is also a specific to fly fishing statement is, did you catch any fish today? We moved a few fish.

Musky anglers will say that. Conventional musky anglers, I think that's where that came from. We had anglers will say that. Yeah. Conventional musky anglers. I think that's where that came from. We had a few chasers. No, I overheard a conversation. The answer is no. Someone was saying how their husband, a colleague of mine, was saying that her husband is enjoying, no, her husband-to-be is enjoying a very good day down in Florida because he jumped two. You got to take what you can get.

Which I'm fine with that. Jumping two is only. Tarpon. Yeah. Only tarpon. He held it long enough for it to jump. Well, it's small victories. And Miles and I are just coming back from Florida

where that was all we got. So when people ask how we did, well, we didn't catch any, but we are sort of close. Jumped one. Yeah. Miles jumped one. I had one just break me off on the first

head shake before it could even jump. So at least he has that much to say. Yeah. You're, uh, you're interested in, um, you're interested in,

I can't really, that's not really something you should say. I was going to say you're interested in con conservation can't really, that's not really something you should say. I was going to say you're interested in conservation, but like, yeah. Yeah. That's not a good, I'm not interested.

Conservation interests me. Is it, are you offering to let me conserve something? You're a proponent. Where do you see yourself in five years? Conservation wise. You, you,

conservation curious. Yeah. You're, I, that's a great way to put it. You're, Where do you see yourself in five years, conservation-wise? Conservation curious. Yeah, you're... That's a great way to put it. You're a conservationist. Let's try this. Let's try this. You're a conservationist. Conservation-minded.

You're conservation-minded. What does that mean? I am. Well, I mean, you know, the more that I got into fly fishing, I think one of the biggest surprises to me was that, you know, conservation, you know, began to interest me. And, well, you know, I never, I guess I would have thought of myself as somebody who cared. But I never would have thought I would have any sort of a platform to do anything positive uh you know as far as conservation you just go through life quietly caring quietly caring and and uh doing absolutely nothing but rooting for

the right old days and now he cares loudly yeah rooting for the good guys i'm falling for you earth i want you to know i hope this thing works out for you. I'll be dead before we know. Yeah, I, you know, the Hank stuff. So I work a lot with Trout Unlimited. And, you know, it dawned on me at one point, I know nothing about, you know, like science. And, you know, I think that to a degree, most people have to take some sort of a leap of faith in a group of people or in science. I will admit to you I'm not going to pour over the science. There are certain things that I know as far as videos, and I think that with climate change in particular being such a hot-button topic, which I don't understand, which actually surprised me a few years ago. Why it's hot-button?

Yeah, that people are, like, so pissed off before the conversation starts. I had no idea that was the case. Chris would. I've puzzled over that, that it's interesting that it's one of those things that's interesting to me that it's partisan. Because it seems it would be a scientific discussion. It would be like, it seems it'd be like you look at a body of evidence and you believe the body, like you look and look and like oh that makes sense i

i support this or i i you know i arrive at the same conclusion or you'd look at a body of evidence and you'd see a lot of holes in the body of evidence right and you'd be like well i don't agree with that it'd be like it's weird that it falls that it winds up falling that your understanding of it tips on partisan lines and doesn't tip on just the same way. If I said to you, like, if you said, why is the sky blue? And I presented you with a, here's my explanation of why it's blue. And you saw it and you're like, um, you know, I see what you're saying, but I, I don't buy that.

There has to be another explanation because look what's wrong with your argument. Those two, it's not like there's like a right wing way of looking at why the sky is blue and a left wing lay of looking at sky blue sky is blue and a left-wing way of looking at the sky is blue. But whether or not you sort of accept or not accept the scientific community's findings about it, how is it partisan? Yeah, it's a bizarre thing. I mean, what I've tried to do is figure out is like, how can I have any sort of an effect? And I realized I can. You want to hear how I to change what happens in China?

No, but the videos as far as like the arguments that people have and the partisanship of it that I've tried to make is the video I'm working on right now is how to talk about talking about climate change. So it's literally just how do we have a conversation. I'm not going to take either side. I'm not going to be a climate change denier. I'm not going to say climate change is happening. I'm not going to say it's human caused or not human caused. I'm just going to have a, it's a video just specifically based on how can we have a conversation about it without losing our minds.

Well, I've long since said that you can't have a, can you believe this? You can't start a conversation with fuck you. And so it starts there, that you have to be willing to listen to each other. That's rule one. Yeah, rule one is at the point that somebody says that, we now know the conversation is over. The conversation has now ended. That exchange isn't going to occur, and then a couple minutes later, someone's going to go, you know what, man? I really see your point.

You're right. Well, I, you know, I mean, and then the other thing is like trying to figure out how do you communicate, you know, with everyone as opposed to just your group of people. Right. And so we were talking about, you know, that, you know, you go on Facebook or whatever and these arguments occur and they just start as arguments. They end as arguments. Absolutely nothing is solved. And they're typically based on two people that have differing views of, we'll say, climate change. And nothing's going to change their differing views. And so it's almost you just sort of I always feel like you're beating your head against a wall if all you're going to do is cheerlead and speak to your choir. And so I think it's fun to use comedy as a disarming element.

And so I'm not coming into it with FU. I'm not coming into it to, you know, berate you. I'm not coming with, you know, all the facts and figures and the serious side of it. I mean, you can just say, let's just let's disarm this thing. Let's at least agree that it doesn't have to be a partisan issue. Let's just figure out a way we can actually just have a conversation about it and then, and then see where that conversation goes. Um, whether or not that helps, I don't, I don't know, but I don't, you know, I, I, I'm not one to set out to make set out to make another video to try to prove something to someone unless I figure out a way to get them to listen to what I'm – to my point of view. If they won't listen to my point of view, then what's the point?

I mean if all I'm getting is people that already agree with my point of view to say, you're goddamn right. It's like, well, that's – who cares. You haven't moved the needle. And so I always try to go, well, maybe you can move the needle just by figuring out how, how do I approach everyone, you know, with, with how do you talk about things like climate change or other conservation issues? And, and, uh, I mean, that might seem like sort of a cop-out to not take a hard line stand on one side of it. I think that's easier said than done, though, to some extent. And I'll bring up a specific example recently that happened to me

where I ran afoul of this without knowing that I would. I published something on our website, and I used the term, the phrase, climate change deniers in that, in that, in that article. And I got an email from a reader accusing me of using pejorative language by using the phrase climate change deniers in the context that I did. And it turned into.

What would he prefer? Yeah. What's up? Well, his, his argument was just that that had, that term had been co-opted and used by the media to frame people who didn't agree with a particular understanding of climate change. Yeah, I can see that. That's a good point. I never thought about it like that.

Exactly. And you're sort of teeing it up. You're saying like, oh, you know, the guy that's wrong. Exactly. And he and I had what I thought was a pretty amicable exchange. We had some basic disagreements about anthropogenic climate change, but I had to admit, like, I didn't, I didn't even think of that term as triggering or as pejorative. And it had, it made me sort of rethink, like, wow, I thought I was coming at this from a pretty safe space in terms of opening up a conversation. And even this basic language that I thought was, was on the table is, is charged. And so that's

why like in these things, I think it's very, very difficult. I like your point of saying, well, I come at it from this comedic space and I try and open up these open conversations. And I think a lot of us try and do that and incidentally or accidentally use terms or phrases that turn it into a fight. Because that was certainly not my intention in the way that I put that together. Well, I would hope that person got more out of the article than that one thing, but they may not have. They may have been so turned off by their response to that phrase that they couldn't hear anything else that I had to say. Well, people don't want their mind to be changed.

No. So once they see any sort of tip that you may be disagreeing with them, they're probably going to shut off. Yeah. And particularly if they feel, and rightfully so, if they feel like they are being maligned or their perspective is being treated disrespectfully, then of course they're not going to listen. I think that's the biggest root cause in my mind is that people tie their identity to their political beliefs or political or whatever climate change is, their beliefs about the world around them. The way they understand things is very deeply connected to who they see themselves as a person. So if that is to shift, then who they are as a person is no longer the same and no longer as pure, perhaps. Reason I bring this up about your interest in,

let's say your support for the conservation movement. Yeah. And you raised some good points. Yeah. To comedy, like Hank Patterson. Yeah. Is not, he could probably, uh, act as though he is. He's not that interested.

In conservation. He's not like a supporter of the conservation movement up until the point, like he would be up until the point where demonstrating his credentials there right could be advantageous to him yeah expressing the right sentiment could help him out in the right moment yeah i think i look at it like if if if this idiot can have a conversation about it i mean you should be able to have a conversation about it. I mean, you should be able to have a conversation about it as well. It is funny, I mean, to take a character that is that and talk about conservation and actually make some serious, like, kind of spot on comments. For the F3T, I did a basically a soapbox speech about conservation and caring and the things that you can do and giving a shit and uh um and it was right in the middle of the film tour and it's it was two and

a half minutes of just me shouting at a camera without any fishing in it so i was a little concerned that that wouldn't be very well received uh at a fly fly fishing show to have a guy not fish at all in his two and a half minutes. But it was really well received. But it's a little bit of a departure from the idiot side of Hank Patterson. There are a few things that I've done that I will say that are just, it's still that same over-the-top character, but maybe he's not saying something quite as stupid as as as he has in the in the past but you almost have to break care like to be impactful a little bit you have to

break character because you have to be uh you're saying to your audience you uh you know i do i i like laugh i goof on us i laugh at us yeah um and you like. You appreciate my sense of humor. So I'm now going to act like who I am. Yeah. For real, which is this dude named Travis. And this dude named Travis likes rivers and wants rivers to be clean and good places to hold lots of fish that we can catch. Yeah. Now I will jump back into being a guy that – It blurs some lines.

I jump back into being now a guy that doesn't really understand any of this yeah yeah well and and i think neither of us understand much uh is is the truth i mean it i guess my thing with the conservation really has been i i mean i'm not joking when i say i don't i don't know the science't, you know, I have not. I will readily admit, you know, so I don't. I'm not going to get into a science argument or debate with somebody about climate change. I mean, there are, I mean, as much as we laugh, there are certain things that I see that I as a human being can do better. I mean, I can be a better steward. I can, you know, I cannot litter.

I mean, it is simple things that I can say, you know what? You're aware that it has nothing to do with. Well, I know, but I'm just, I'm just talking about conservation in general. Like, you know, it's like, there are things as far as the plastics problem and there are things that you, you look at now, you know, of course the minute I say, you know, you should, you know, kick plastic and, and all that stuff. Somebody is going to see a picture of me with a plastic water bottle and that will destroy everything. Right. They will look. They will like finding that picture.

Oh, yeah. And I'm sure there's one out there. But, yeah, I don't know. I guess with conservation, it's just been for me. It's been something that I believe in the work that organizations like, you know, Trout Unlimited. And that's I bring them up because that's one that I'm closely tied to. I believe in the work that they're doing. And if there's some way that they think that I can help them, I let them sort of lead.

I have ideas like that, how to talk about talking about climate change is an idea that I had, you you know because we had a conversation about well what do you think you know and i said well i mean god we can't even talk about it like i read a thread chris wood had mentioned climate change in an article it's like 14 paragraphs deep in an article that has nothing to do with climate change and i mean it was a thousand deep on people like ready to i am i'm not going to be a member of Trout Unlimited anymore. If this is the path you're going down and the conspiracy. And I'm like, my God. I read the whole article.

I don't remember him talking about climate change at all. And that's all it took. It sort of goes back to your pejorative. I think a lot of people hear that. that, they hear the word climate change, and they, what they, they're saying to themselves, where is this headed in a regulatory sense? Right. Yeah. So like, where is this headed in a governmental sense? Where is this headed in a sense of federal oversight? So they hear the word and they, they're not, they're not, they're not untangling all the portions of the conversation. They're thinking about, like, what are the ways in which this is going to be leveraged to push the agenda of people who are, like, predisposed to already dislike certain industries?

That's what's going on. Yeah. And that's why it's how to, that's why we don't know how to talk about how to talk about it. Yeah. No, and I get that. I get it. It's a fear thing of where it's going to go. But if you focus on, well, if it's going to go a direction that maybe has a negative impact on you in some way, but a positive impact on the environment.

And then that's a tough, that's a tough, uh, thing to have to figure out with yourself, I guess. I mean, I, and I'm not in an industry that, you know, that any of this affects. And so I certainly come at it from a much easier place. I mean, my, you know, I make videos, you know, I don't, I'm sure there are things that in the making of videos, I, I burned the tip of a fly rod in one of my videos and, and Orvis had sent me a brand new, like Helios three, and I set it in a fire and I burned about a two inch, you know, portion of the tip of that fly rod. And, and I, my God, I had a guy hate me. I was, I mean, air pollution. Oh yeah. Oh God. Uh, you know, and I mean, he went off on me and there was an argument on the

Orvis, you know, Facebook and he had it posted on his page and he had posted a big long thing on my thing about the fact that I was out burning certain types of resins. And, oh, my God, I can't believe that you're I mean, this is the equivalent to burning half of the cap that would go on a milk jug. And he lost his mind. And then every argument that he had was like, I mean mean i get it when i'm going up to do a river cleanup i'm gonna be burning fuel and i'm like it couldn't be that when you're going up to drink beer with your friends it was when you're going up to do a river cleanup and so it's stuff like that that always gets me like you know uh chris you know chris from to you had said interesting things when we talked about the fact that it is both sides that's

the other thing i mean it's like if you are you know come at these topics from this holier than thou you know if you you know if you're an environmentalist a conservationist you know and you come at it you know like at people that don't believe what you believe in a certain way, you're doing a big disservice to what you believe in. I was at my brother's and he was, I had my kids there and there was a bunch of other people there. And when he gets, I can't remember what his threshold is, but at some threshold of dinner guests, he runs paper plates.

Because he's like, at a point, I'm not going to wash all these damn dishes. So if it's seven paper, but he didn't have paper, he had styrofoam plates. And I overheard many people take, like basically try to take him to task. Yeah. For the styrofoam plates.

Yeah. No. He would be like, how did you get here? What was the mode of transportation you used to get here? Because this plate wouldn't get you to the end of my driveway. Yeah. But it's funny,

but then it brings up this other problem that people have. They're talking about stuff. It's like the, what about ism? Like, like what about, I could say, I might say,

whatever. Let's say you're having an argument with your spouse right yeah like one one of the members of the marriage says oh they come home it's a weeknight and they say why are the why are the kids watching tv like they're not allowed to watch tv during the week and you go, uh, well, what about when, right? So you're no longer talking about the thing. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a conversation about purity. Yeah. Yeah.

Where, yeah. Who's the better person. It's not like you've lost way track of what the goal is of not having them not watch anything. And so what a bit what about isms they're frustrating because they're so true yeah how did you get here you didn't need to you didn't need to burn gas to come eat dinner at my house yeah to tell me that i shouldn't use these plates yeah why don't you eat at your own house and save on that fossil fuel yeah we're not talking about the environment at this point now we're talking about a gallon of gas and some plates.

But yeah, but it winds up being like, it makes everything like what about isms are hard because they make everything hard to talk about. But then they also are so stingingly true. This guy was super mad because he said, I, I, not only had I burned that but i'm adding uh to the the waste so this is now going to go to a landfill he's very upset that he's going to a landfill the tip so which you can't you know it's burned so you can't fix it and so i told him i said as stupid as this sounds we're actually framing the burned tip and and we're giving it away at at one of our shows i said and and beyond that this was a rod that came from the returns department so this wasn't an actual they didn't just take it off the shelf and send me a rod to destroy i mean they pulled something from the so i said you know

this is act it's actually not adding to the landfill. It's a recycled drawing. It's, yeah. And then he said, well. What about? Yes. It's of little consolation to me, is what he said. It's of little consolation to me that that is not going to the. I said, well, you're two.

What? I said, you're two things where I burned plastic resin and that this is going to a landfill. I just told you one of those isn't even a thing and it's of little consolation. It's half of your problem with me. Now your whole problem with me has become this thing instead. But yeah, it's, I mean, I don't, you know, I'll probably end up solving this whole thing. This video I'm talking about will most likely solve this whole thing. This video I'm talking about will most likely solve this, this whole thing.

The only thing I'm thinking about while I sit here is, God, I got to do more research. I got to read. I got to do some research because I'm, I all, I, you,

you play stuff back in your head about the part where I'm like, I don't know shit about it. I'm just trying to make a video. Uh, and I think, oh, I should probably know something. So anyway,

so I would, thanks. Thanks for now. I've got homework. I'm glad I came, to make a video uh and i think oh i should probably know something so anyway so i i would thanks thanks for now i've got homework i'm glad i came did your show yeah we're gonna do concluders and then people as part of your concluder you can do the last concluder perfect as part of your concluder yeah tell people the best way to go uh find you yeah you because no one wants to find you find Find Hank Patterson. Yeah. Yeah. Trust me. If I, if you put on that reader board that you saw in Peekaboo, Idaho, Travis Swartz is going

to be here. Crickets. Nobody else will show up. Hank Patterson, you got 15 people. Miles, what do you got? Uh, this conversation about conservation and conservation and ideas about conservation has me thinking about reasons why we do end up caring. And for me, it usually ends up seeing something that bugs me or bums me out. I'm like, wow, I wish that wasn't that way.

So we just got back from Sanibel Island where we tried to do some fishing, but there weren't any fish to catch because, you know, they all died. So it just, my, my concluder is that I think, I don't think that, I think that when we conservation, when we're talking about that, we're not talking about like some high minded ideal of, of being selfless. We're talking about losing shit that we really, really care about and impacts us on a very personal, selfish level that we don't want to have to deal with. So I'm, I'm thinking about the, the selfishness aspect of conservation. That's my concluder.

That's it. That's cool. Yeah. You don't got to check with me if it's all right. I'm, I'm just letting you know, I'm putting a point on it. Got you. Yanni?

Travis, do you have a day job? I, uh, I, I own a small video production company in Boise, Idaho. That makes Hank Patterson videos? That makes Hank Patterson videos and super sweet corporate videos as well. All right. She has you a little bit of serious stuff too? Yeah, yeah, mostly, yeah, just sort of corporate video stuff. What's that mean?

Well, I do, you know, like a video for a company like Hewlett Packard or, you know, a training video. So a guy will be like, man, I like these computers. Yeah, it's like, how do you use this printer? Well, you push that button. It's pretty exciting stuff. I do get called a lot to try to make, you know, really mundane corporate topics funny. Oh, you do? so i get that that phone call from time to time uh because i tell people i said if you want to make less money than a fishing guide

make videos about being a fishing guide and uh people are like oh man this ain't patterson you just killing it no i am I am not just killing it but people still want to hire you as a fishing guy yeah I picked like the smallest angling sect to decide to make fun of but seriously I think that Henry Patterson

is going to be really into golf and so and that's how I'll retire switching over to golf soon bigger audience do you remember the Tim what was that dude that comedian Tim Conway And that's how I'll retire is switching over to golf soon. Bigger audience. Do you remember the Tim? What was that dude, that comedian, Tim Conway? Is that his name?

Yeah. He recently passed away, Tim Conway. Yeah. He used to do that Dorf on this, Dorf on golf. Yeah, Hank on golf. Yeah. That thing where he put shoes on his knees. He was very sensitive.

He's a funny dude, that Tim Conway. Yeah, we used to get Quite a chuckle out of that Yeah But I don't know If you watch it now I don't know if it holds up Like Blazing Saddles Wow

Yeah Right Are we surprised That's on Netflix You might want to Pull that down I'm not sure It's holding up

How long have you been Fly fishing I've been fly fishing Probably 25 years Holy Something, something like that. I'm 49 years old. What were you doing the other years? I don't know, just drinking and stuff that should have sent me to jail, but somehow I avoided it. Were you an outdoorsman?

I do a lot of comedy, and I toured theater. I was a Shakespeare actor for seven years. Oh, you know, I wanted to ask you about that because I heard that. I don't realize that. I heard that. Yeah, I spent a lot of time in theater. Miles and me talked about that, about why I think some funny fishing videos work and some don't. And I said, I think that I come at it as a comedian and, and not a fly fisherman.

I mean. So you're an actor. So if I say, um, Doth, Doth. Doth. Doth protest. You can say Doth. You understand what I'm talking about? Yeah, I do.

The Bard. If I say the Bard, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Who, uh. I mean, how good was I as a Shakespearean actor? Yeah, do, do a line.

I'm Hank Patterson now. Do a line. Hank Patterson, the king that keep his rebels here tonight, take heed the queen coming out within his side for Oberon is passing fell in wrath. That's a stuff from Puck. That moved me. Midsummer Night's Dream. That moved me. Hit me in another good Shakespeare line.

I was not a great Shakespearean actor. I was probably okay at it. What kind of guys? Did you play the kings? No, no, no. I was young, so I was playing smaller roles. I did have a role in a play called Spring Awakening one time, and I was featured in American Theater Magazine. So that was my big claim to fame as a theater actor, which is-

Oh, yeah. We all read that magazine. American Theater is like, that's big in theater. Yeah. Yeah. You thought fly fishing was small. Yeah, right. I'm telling you.

Yeah, yeah. American theater magazine, that's a real niche audience. Yeah, I'll tell you what, you tour enough children's theater and you decide not to do theater real fast. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, it was, yeah, I did a lot of tours. I'm out. I'm out, baby.

What else you got, Yanni? You doing good? That's all I got. These are generous concluding thoughts, because a lot of times people take a concluding thought and they want to turn the spotlight inward. But Yanni lets it shine out. I like to have follow-up questions.

He lets it shine. His concluders are a spotlight that shines out upon the world. That's just how Yanni is. Yeah, he's nice. What do you got, Sam? Well, now that I'm having a lot of trouble with my personal life. Well, make it all about you. Well, I'll start it out by making it about me.

I hope my attempt to play the devil's advocate about methods of fly fishing didn't come across as purest of or in any way but i just want to i just want to say get out fishing doesn't matter how you do it as long as it's legal as long as you're having fun and don't listen to anybody who says anything different and i think that's the the great value of of hank and travis here is that he, I think, did more than anyone ever has to encourage people to just not take it so damn seriously and go have a good time, make fun of yourself, make fun of your friends and enjoy the experience and just get out there. I'm going to hijack this because there's one other thing I want to ask. I think I did a good job, too.

I want to hear a story about you being mistaken for Hank. About me being mistaken for Hank? Right, because we recognize that it's a character, but I'm sure that people come up to you all the time expecting to talk to Hank. Hank is an actual, is not a character. Right. Early, I mean, I don't get it as much, but I certainly, like, people, when people started realizing that I am not Hank Patterson, that it's a character that I play in some videos, some people were very disappointed, you know, to learn that. Because Travis is certainly nowhere near as

entertaining uh as as hank patterson so i've had that experience quite a bit actually where people are like wait what and it really blows their mind which i think is i mean is it new to you that people play characters and videos it shouldn't be that big of a thing, but it's a compliment really, because I mean, it's like, if you really believed this was an actual, you know, person,

I guess that's a compliment. You played it well. Amazing acting ability. Shakespearean background coming through. Yeah. Yeah. It's very Shakespearean. I'd like to make one plug.

I watched, I was doing some research for this podcast. I was watching YouTube videos, and I watched the one about how to make a fly fishing video. Oh, yeah. And coming from production, myself being a producer, I think you really hit the nail on the head on that one. That one had me in stitches.

It's Hank Patterson on making. Yes. Yeah, it's like all the things that you need to have in your fly fishing video to make it an award winning. And it just hits the nail on the head. It's like slow motion, shot of boots coming through the water, a shot of somebody tying a fly on. Have you seen it? No, no, no.

But I was worried because that also played at the film tour. And I was worried that the filmmakers would be pissed at me. They needed to hear it. They're like, hey, man, all those shots are in my video. They're in every video we're going to watch tonight. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a – but what else are you going to show? It's fishing.

Here's my concluder. Yeah. It's the thing I wanted to talk about earlier, but I like to talk about stuff that people write in about. And we were having a conversation about sort of the etiquette when you tell someone your spot. You know, we talked about it earlier, right, with a guy? This guy wrote in that he says, he writes in arguing that you should never, he's talking about like people are saying that when you're

going out in the woods you should tell someone where you are so if there's an emergency and people be like most commonly obviously if you're married you would tell one spouse just let her know i'm at such and such trailhead or my tree stand out at bob's farm whatever just so there's a problem he says you should never tell your wife where you are because if you go through a quote brutal divorce she will then know all of your hunting spots and tell them to her next man oh yeah this is a thing that he found dark you know well he's been through this so just a little hot tip. That happened? His ex gave up his spots?

He says the one thing you did right was never tell her where he was going. I wish this would have happened to him. In divorce, he doesn't need to worry about her betraying his hunting and fishing spots. He signs off with, always be careful who you share your spots with. Wow. Man. Unwarranted.

Unwarranted. You can't trust your wife and who can you trust? You can't trust too much. If I wasn't looking to wrap her up, I would tell you guys a story that would curl your hair. It has a lot to do with what that guy is saying. Not the marriage part, but. Let's save it for next time. Relationship part.

Okay. You know what? Can I make a request? Yeah. Can Hank Patterson give a closing thought, a concluder? Sure. Yeah. Does he think fast or does he only think real slow when he's planning things out?

No, no, no, no. I mean, Hank Patterson would say, what an absolute honor for all of you guys to have me here. And I'd imagine, you know, if you've got somebody like, I don't know, employed around here that like watches the numbers, that this will probably be your biggest episode ever. And so you're welcome for me being here. My podcast, Hank Patterson's Outdoor misadventures uh a much larger show bigger audience and uh we don't put half the amount of effort and work into it that you guys do and yet somehow somehow we're that much better um so and i would i would invite any of you to come and be on hank patterson's outdoor misadventures podcastures podcast if I thought that you could keep up. But, you know, if you keep at this,

if you keep plugging away at the treat eater thing or whatever you guys are doing here, keep plugging away, and in a couple of years, when you've got the sort of chops that I have, I'd love to have you guys come and maybe, like, intern for me or something like that. That'd be fantastic. Travis would say that i appreciate uh being here and uh my concluder my my takeaway is that i think it's super cool that

you guys uh talk to me for so long about real recovery and and the work that we do uh and i think uh i will walk away from this realizing that every time I get in a conversation about conservation, I realize that I'm copping out a little bit by not doing a little bit more research and not educating myself better. And I get myself in the weeds. And so I actually will do a little bit more of that. Not until after I make my video about how to have a conversation about it, because I want to go into that freshly knowing absolutely nothing at all. Uh, but no, uh, uh, thanks for having me. People can find me at hankpatterson.com or you can find my new podcast, which is an absolute hot mess, uh, Hank Patterson's outdoor misadventures.

Or, and some people like it and some people won't. They can drive from Ketchum to Bozeman. Yeah. Watching out the left-hand window. Yeah, yeah. And you'll eventually see them. Yeah, yeah, I'll be there. I'll be there.

I'll be around. Hitching a ride. All right, thanks for coming on, man. Thanks. One of the reasons I like all you listeners is that when we really lean on you and call for you to do something, you do it. Everybody got behind our cookbook so hardcore that it came out of the gate as a bestseller

on all kinds of bestseller lists. It's done phenomenally well. Well, I'm here to lean on you again because I would love for you guys to see our new documentary film stars in the sky uh we've been talking about it on and off for a long time now it comes up in this podcast people are always like hey man what happened to the documentary well it's here now there's a lot of people in the film that you'd know from the podcast. Joe Rogan, Robert Abernathy, Doug Duren, Buck Bowden, and on and on. It is Stars in the Sky, and you will find it at starsintheskyfilm.com, available for purchase, streaming, or download.

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