The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 181: Bibles and Bulls

Episode Date: August 12, 2019

Steven Rinella talks with Jason Phelps, Dirk Durham, Ryan Callaghan, Seth Morris, and Janis Putelis.Subjects discussed: Purple Nurple; swimming with a fairly attractive aunt; more on hunting from the Bible; Steve and Seth’s Southwest Montana nuisance beaver removal; Jason Phelps and American elbow grease; how to call in non-stop big giant bulls; plenty of latex; Dirk Durham, six-time world champion elk caller; glunking; lost calves; and more.  Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meat. If you listen to the Meat Eater podcast, and obviously you do because here you are listening to it, or watch the show Meat Eater on Netflix, you have seen and kind of met our buddy Remy Warren, who is, I'll say, I've said it before and i'll say it again one of the most just skilled accomplished hunters i've ever had the pleasure

of spending time out in the woods with we are launching a new podcast with remy called cutting the distance and in cutting the distance it's not like a conversational show cutting the distance is an educational show where remy walks you through situations and scenarios from his life and gives you like actionable usable information instruction intelligence inspiration about how to become a better hunter and there's no one more suited to give you this information than Remy Warren. So go find it, Cutting the Distance, the same places you can find the Meat Eater Podcast. Give it a listen. Give it a review. Cutting the Distance with Remy Warren. this is the meat eater podcast coming at you shirtless severely bug bitten and in my case underwearless the meat eater podcast you can't predict anything presented by on x hunt creators

of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt app from the itunes or google play store know where you stand with on x Comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google Play Store. Know where you stand with OnX. Okay, you on, Phil? We are on. Wild Phil? Wild Phil. Why is it Wild Phil?

I don't know, because I'm used to calling people named Bill Wild Bill, and then I thought I'd call him Wild Phil, but Wild Phil doesn't sound good. I like it. Yeah. I think just try it out for four or five months see what happens i was telling him if your name's phil and you're probably not too wild but if your name's bill that can go any direction man are there some wild phils out there wild phil wild phil hickok wild phil cody big phil cody well anyway wild phil thank you phil uh jason can you introduce yourself real quick and then i got a quick question for you jason phelps phelps game calls and uh have your partner uh dirk durham with phelps game calls good job guys if you had to rate your patience on a like a sliding scale of one to ten what would it be because it's gonna we got couple things we've got to do here.

Two. Really? So you're just going to be antsies all get out? A two? Yeah, it's not good. You're an impatient person. Your whole life, you've known this? Yeah.

Well, the reason I ask, I've got a couple things to talk about. We got like a handful of nipple ripping, nipple stories coming in lately. Yeah. A new one came in. You can't pass them by. No. A new one came in. This guy says, I thought you'd be interested in this. He says that they were out.

They were in Ontario, Canada. Bunch of people swimming in the water. a bunch of guys, a bunch of girls, and they're out swimming 20 feet of water. And all of a sudden, one of this guy's buddies accuses him of giving him a purple nipple, which is when you pinch someone's nipple apparently and twist it real hard, which we call a titty twister. Purple nurple. That's what I've been told. Purple nurple? Purple nurple. That's what I've been told. Purple nurple? Purple nurple. Really? You too? I've heard both.

What does he say it is again? Now let me double check. I mean, the titty twister is, I would say, more common, but purple nurple's right in there. Purple nurple? Purple nurple. He says his buddy started... Oh! I'm sorry. He does call it a purple nurple. What the hell is that? A titty twister, basically. Yeah. So his buddy started, oh, I'm sorry. He does call it a purple nurple. What the hell is that? A titty twister, basically. Yeah.

So his buddy's like, hey, stop giving me a titty twister. He's like, I didn't give you a titty twister. And they inspect the nipple, and it's been bit by a northern pike. What? Yeah, had little teeny pinprick holes. Then later, they're sitting around recounting this story, and there was an aunt that... He describes her as a fairly attractive aunt.

I thought it was interesting that he added that to his story. I feel like if you... He wanted to set the scene. I feel like it's okay to be... I thought about this this morning. I feel that it's okay to be attracted to an aunt or uncle, but you do not act on it or tell the aunt and uncle. Agreed.

Sure, go for it. Do you know what I mean? It seems like it's excusable. Would you agree with that, Phelps? No. You think it's inexcusable for a young lad to find his aunt. So it's got to be the family removed, so it can't be like... I didn't say act on it.

I said you cannot act on it. I don't even know if you would tell anyone about it in your family. I think it'd be okay to tell friends. Okay, yeah. That's acceptable. Okay, so... To basically say I have a good looking aunt. To be attracted to one's aunt or uncle. Blood aunt?

That's what I was saying. It's like the married end of the family. Aunt, not... Your mom's sister. I'm talking about telling them or acting on it or marrying them. It's okay to say that they're good looking. I don't want to explore all the options, but there are some familial connections that if someone just said that they had a fairly attractive ex like uh i had a you know fairly attractive father i would be like that's you know not i'd keep that to yourself but to say

you have a fairly attractive aunt i i know you noticed it i noticed it that that was an interesting thing to bring up and i didn't want to pass judgment and I'm like that's fine in this context the ant oh go ahead in this context I think he's letting the reader feel better about envisioning this scene that you're going to talk about he's coloring the scene because of what he says happened the the ant divulges to the boys that that has happened to her too out swimming in the lake which then revealed to them that this aunt that they find attractive swims nude in the lake and he just wanted to throw it into the repertoire of it's okay to be thinking about i encourage you to think about my aunt swimming nude in the lake because she's an attractive gal i think he's like let me paint the picture for you right uh there's my aunt just smoking hot right in letting it all hang no that's not what he said he said fairly

attractive so uh you know in in montana you're supposed to paint uh posts like your fence poles trees whatever orange means like don't come in here. In Texas, this is very un-Texas, I feel. In Texas, you use purple. Purple paint means don't come in my land. And he said that there's, he was in a hardware store, a listener wrote in, he's in a hardware store, and they have

cans of paint labeled no hunting purple, which he found offensive. He said, why not just call it no trespassing purple? Yeah. Have they done some sort of study that says like purple paint lasts longer in the hot Texas sun or something? Doesn't fade as fast?

Don't know. No hunting purple. How do you tell? It's like a new shade. He describes it as a. Don't know. No hunting purple. How do you tell? It's like a new shade. He describes it as a new shade of purple. Did he feel like it was like an anti-hunting? He thought they'd sell a hell of a lot more in Texas.

They called it no trespassing purple. Right. I don't know why I thought that was interesting. Now that I'm talking about it, it doesn't seem as interesting as I thought it was. You find that interesting, Jason? Yeah, I don't get offended that easy, though. It just it is i mean maybe you can trespass you just don't want you to hunt there is there is there places you can get on and not hunt but you can be on their property or is it truly no trespassing purple i don't know he took offense to it i think it's no trespassing

purple uh did i talk about this that this guy uh that a guy in Kentucky was saying that they were doing some kind of study where they had collared deer. And people were supposed to feel free to shoot, like, because they're doing mortality. So, like, a hunter would be like, if you see a collared, they're saying to hunters, if you see a collared deer and you would normally shoot it, go ahead and shoot it. And they were, he found that there's some guys that had some resistance to,

did I talk about this? Shooting the collared deer because of... I don't know. We've talked a lot about shooting collared deer, but I don't know if we've covered this specific study that you're talking about. He heard from multiple individuals that you definitely, if you shoot a collared deer, you need to grind all of the meat because they also plant microchips in the deer.

And if you don't grind all the meat and destroy the microchips, they will then track you. For a while. Because you will intake the meat and the microchip will then live inside of you yeah this is a wildlife biologist wrote us in about this what's your guys take nice 300 inch bull come strolling through got a collar on his neck you think twice about it or just normal normal as can be no i'm shooting it really oh yeah i wouldn't be able to do it it We talked about this.

It would seem corrupted to me. But a banded duck is cool as hell. Like tagged bears? No. Collared, no. Collared, I wouldn't want to do it. I'm shooting it. Really?

Steve thinks that because some other man's hands have been on the animal prior to his, that there is some sort of. Or corruption has occurred. It's been tainted. No longer as pure as the driven snow. It's not pure. I would shoot it for sure. A collar. Would you then take photos of you with the collared animal or would you cut the collar off?

No, I'd take a photo with the collar. And then start wearing the collar. And your caption would be, not the first guy to handle this. I see it as meat in the freezer. The caption could also read, look at this, science at work.

Alright, so very last day of the hunt, you've been grinding out for 14 days and the collared one walks by at 6 this, science at work. All right. So let's very last day of the hunt. You've been grinding out for 14 days and the colored one walks by at six o'clock at night. Last day. Change your mind? No. I'm not that good of an elk hunter yet.

So if that thing came into me, I'd see that as maybe my only opportunity this season. In regards to the microchip. Like eating the microchip. Yeah. The, the data is like, once you get a mortality signal, which all a mortality signal is, is when something hasn't moved for a period of time,

depending on the species. Like once they get that, then, you know, kind of they'd want to go retrieve the, the thing. It's, you know, for us, it's going to end up, you know, let's say you're out hunting for 14 days and you ate that thing early on in the hunt. It's going to end up in a pit toilet somewhere. Right. So I don't, I don't think you got to worry about being tracked as long as you're a regular fella. Oh, like, so you're saying if you're a

Kentuckian. Yeah. And you shoot a collard deer and then choose to eat whole muscle meat and not ground and do ingest this tracking chip and you worry about government interference in your life, you will eventually pass it. Yes.

You will scat it out and you will then be free of the government following you around. Yes, you will have led them to the Flying J truck stop. We heard a good story from, I think it was Robert Abernathy told us a story one time where they had some turkeys, and they had those little tracking. They can glue these temporary. I saw that in Tennessee. They can glue these temporary chips up into their feathers.

No, they pull the feathers out, get a bare patch of skin and then glue directly to the skin. Yeah. Anyways, he, they one day got a signal from one of their turkeys that he was headed down the highway. High rate of speed. the highway high rate of speed yeah the high rate of speed and i think the story i think the way the story goes is it must be the person went to pluck the turkey or skin it and realize what it had on it because when they finally went there and found the dang thing it was uh i think he said it was like buried under a wood pile or something or stuffed under a wood pile.

But the guy realized that the guv was coming down. Was it poached? Yeah, it was poached. Yeah, the guy poached a tracking device turkey. You remember a long time ago when we did that episode with Bracey Hill, our friend Bracey Hill. And it was about hunting, like discussions about hunting in the Bible. A guy wrote in, curious why we didn't include, why we didn't get into this quote. There's a quote in the Bible.

It's Proverbs 12, 27 that says, the lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt. Which is a good quote. And I was looking that up to try to figure out where it came from and what it meant. And you know how there's all kinds of different versions? There's all different versions of the Bible. If you look at all the different versions of the Bible, that quote means a thousand different things.

Like, so the lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt. That's like the New International Version. The New Living Translation. Lazy people don't even cook the game they catch, but the diligent make use of everything they find. And then the English Standard Version. The Berean. King James the slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting but the substance of a diligent man

is precious think about all that it's complicated it's complicated it's like a game of telephone about hunting yeah it's interesting the transition from, like,

well, meat's not quite valuable enough, so we're going to make it, we're going to change that word to riches or substance. Weren't those two versions? Yeah. Two last quick things. No, I'm going to get to this stuff later. Oh, one last quick thing.

Me and Seth, you still good, Jason? You getting antsies all get out? No, no, I'm good to get to this stuff later. Oh, one last quick thing. Me and Seth. You still good, Jason? You getting antsies all get out? No, no, I'm good. I can listen to stories. Okay. Me and Seth are starting to plan out our winter trap line. Yep. So anyone that has, this is a public service announcement. Yep. I'm going to try to spin it like

I'm going to spin it like instead of them doing us a favor, we'll spin it like we're doing them a favor. Oh, we're definitely doing them a favor. So anyone who's got nuisance beaver or muskrat problems and they'd like to get them taken care of. Call us. Yeah, go on to themeateater.com and send us an email and you can just make the subject line,

Beavers! With a capital, with an exclamation point. Yep. And then we'll field them. And we'll range as far as Big Timber. Yep. For nuisance beavers. Nuisance muskrats.

Yeah, we don't want to go across the state, but. Yeah. Fairly local. Good beaver removal service. Free beaver removal service. Free beaver removal. For nuisance beavers. Southwest Montana.

And Seth, when we find a gate closed, how do we leave it? We leave it closed. When we find a gate open, how do we leave it? Well, if it's supposed to be closed, we'll close it. If it's supposed to be open, we'll keep it the way it is. Let's say a landowner says to us, Seth, he says, you boys go ahead and catch all them beavers, but don't let me catch you shooting my elk. Would we shoot those elk? We would not shoot the elk. No, sir. We're just all them beavers, but don't let me catch you shooting my elk. Would we shoot those elk?

We would not shoot the elk. No, sir. We're just there for beavers. If he said, don't drive in my field when it's all wet, would we drive on that field, Seth? Nope. We'd be doing a lot of walking. Reliable, conscientious beaver removal. Respectful.

Respectful beaver removal services. And if they just wanted to drop them off here at the office in Bozeman, Montana, you guys would say? No. No. No. Seth might want to flesh them. No. I spent many years doing that, and I'd rather just catch them myself.

Yeah, you guys know, did we talk about this ever before? The use of flesh hides for a fur buyer we might have i don't know i don't think you guys hit it hard enough because i i threw that picture you guys working away up on uh the instagram and folks were like that guy know what he's doing he's wearing flip-flops flushing that beaver i call him flip-flop flesher, man. People are very interested in me wearing flip-flops. He's got two nicknames. He's DP Double Punch or the Flip-Flop Flesher. Where's the double punch come from?

It's a long story. Yeah, it's a long story. He doesn't like it. It's a long story that he doesn't like. What was I going to tell you to say about Seth? Oh, yeah. So when you sell fur, we want our own furs for hats and mittens and pillows and queen size comforters but um i'm gonna make a california king that's why i'm trying to solicit uh does that mean a

real big king size bed california yes i'm fixing to make a california king size comforter out of beaver pelts that's why we need a lot of nuisance beavers. Yeah. But when you sell fur, you can sell it three ways. Guys will sell it in the round, which is, that's just the animal. That's just selling like a raccoon to a fur buyer. You can sell it green, which is skinned and not fleshed and dried. You could sell it fleshed and not dried,

but no one in their right mind would ever do that. No. Or you can sell it ready to roll, fleshed and dried. Seth used to have a job where he would go after high school down to the fur buyer and he would skin. Would you skin or just flesh? Skin, flesh, and put them up. Skin, flesh, and put up raccoons and some beavers.

Muskrats. What else did you put up? Muskrats, fox, coyote, mink. Pretty much anything that was legal to trap at that point in time. Was that an hourly paying job or per skin? Per animal. Oh, it was per animal. What did you make flesh in a raccoon hide?

I don't remember. It was maybe like Four or five bucks To skin it Four or five bucks To flesh it Yeah but there's no money Left over

I guess in those days The prices were pretty good On raccoons then I was in high school too So like Just some extra money Like I wasn't No but he's saying

That there's no money Left in the hide I'm saying depending On the fur markets Right If the fur markets Got low enough, I wonder if your pay goes down. Never seemed to go down. I used to peel logs for a log home builder, and it was $0.35 a foot.

I don't know what it is nowadays. Couldn't tell you. But they paid you $0.35 per foot to peel logs. But I have a hard time picturing that they're going to give you eight bucks to skin and flesh a raccoon. Are you lying to us? No, I mean. Because I was just trying to build us up.

I was just trying to build up our credibility. I had a lot of those jobs that same time frame. And I often found it was how you could take advantage of a high school kid. Because I'd bust ass and be like, oh yeah. That'd be a good little manual. X amount for X amount. And then I'd be like, yeah, I did double that. So that's 30 bucks instead of 15 bucks.

And they'd be like, whoa, I didn't really want to pay that. I'd be like, okay, that sounds fair. You know, uh, my buddy, Tommy Edson, um, you know him, Yanni. I do. He, one time, he knew this old guy that he was along, like, Tommy was like, his grandma lived along the Columbia. And some old guy had dug a big pond on his property and wanted to stock it with bullheads. Lord knows why, but that's what he wanted to stock it with. And he told Tommy, he's like, I'll give you a dollar a bullhead.

Not knowing what he's getting himself into. So he like set himself to work. He says when it comes time for delivery, his mod drives him over, you know. And she pops the trunk and he's got all these buckets in there. And the guy looks in there and he kind of has, uh-oh. He's like, yeah, I'll give you a hundred bucks for the whole thing. Wow, he had over a hundred bullets. Yeah, I think it was a dub where he said the guy was just like, well, I didn't really mean that many bullets. Yeah, exactly.

Nice. All right, Jason Phelps. Where we at? Hit him, Yanni. No, I want to do this one. Who invented the diaphragm call? We were just talking about that. I think we decided.

Do you not know? Well, there's two guys. I think it's Wayne Carlton. Invented the diaphragm? Well, not the diaphragm. So, I mean, on the elk call side, he basically took a turkey call and rolled it into the elk calls.

I don't know the history on who invented the very first diaphragm call for turkeys or any other game. Is that maybe unknowable? Yeah, I don't know if anybody's made it. It was Wayne and Larry Jones on the elk call side, but there were turkey calls before that, which maybe Wayne was even involved in a little bit.

What year was that going on? This was in the 80s. Early 80s. Yeah, I remember my yeah i remember my my half brother frank was an elk guide in colorado and they used to use pvc pipe and turkey calls yeah and that was when people were just like it was like a new thing you know yeah i mean in the history of hunting compared like the history of game calls it's like it's very very new still game calls yeah very very short

timeline you know only 40 50 years i mean they've been using old you know grass and predator calls and stuff like that but as far as like the market um fairly fairly new the i got sent a bunch of pictures from uh this museum in france with all these very intricate, very, very old bird calls, like ranging from songbirds, which they're big on eating, all the way through ducks and geese. But these things look like accordions or like crazy smoking apparatus. I had many guesses before I got to the correct one. Oh, you didn't look at it and immediately be like,

that's some kind of game call. No, no, they're very intricate. I'll dig up those pictures here at some point. When we were hanging around down in South America, when they try to call in a tape here, they still use a blade of grass.

Which is kind of like a reed, right? Yeah, it's all about that vibration of that material. So anything will work. So tell everyone about how elk calling came into being a thing i mean how well is it known like now or how did it start back no like we talk about like the late 70s early 80s whatever when people started messing around with the idea that you

could call in elk or bugle in elk you know yeah so i mean i think it just it you know as a hunter and trying to take advantage of the seasons we were given like somebody just realized hey these things are rutting there and you know trying to imitate them of the seasons we were given, like somebody just realized, Hey, these things are rutting there. And, you know, trying to imitate them. And so I think it was just natural, you know, Wayne Carlton, you might know the story better that, um, you know, he was able to kiki run on a tricky call, which we build some of those calls for, um,

and just basically realize that, Hey, I sound like an elk, went out and put it to work in September and realize, Hey, we can call these things in pretty effectively. Do a, do a kiki run for everyone. I'm going to do this on a... Oh, you want me to just do it in my mouth? No, no, hell no. Do it with a call.

Got a whole sack of them. That's a kiki run? Immature turkey call and then they it's basically a young a young immature turkey trying to to yelp yeah the guys that hunt turkeys with dogs right um don't they when they when they go in the fall and you scatter up the whole crew scatter up a flock and then they'll kind of get in a central location to try to start calling the flock back together. A lot of, yeah, a lot of kikis in the fall. Yeah.

That's the, that's one, that's the call. I've never done that, but that's, I think that's the call they use. Yeah. That long drawn out yelps and stuff, but yeah, it's just, and so that we design a turkey call to do that kiki and it's very, very similar to a cow call.

You know, when we get, when we get asked like, hey, I'm a turkey caller, never touched an elk call. And so I so i'm like hey can you kiki run on some double and triple reads and they said yeah i'm like well you'll be you're gonna be you hit the ground running on elk calls you'll be able to figure it out real quick so when you make a when you make a call for that turkey sound it's just a single read it's a it's usually a triple like a ghost cut so you're trying to remove you don't want any overhanging in the middle you want that middle to be clean so you can get those high pitched kiki runs i got you so it's usually like a ghost cut or or a straight read hey uh real quick yanni explain to explain to these boys the um why are you looking at me like that

i'm just trying to prepare my mind for what's coming at me explain to these boys the guys that cut oh the guys I sent pictures of the guys that cut to Jason but it's basically like a small u shaped cut out of one side and then within that u-shape there's two little micro slits and then the opposite end of the call there's a micro slit and then within that U shape, there's two little micro slits. And then at the opposite end of the call, there's a micro slit. And then from there, he starts there, and then to dial in the diaphragm, he just slowly shaves like the leading edge of the top reed. And as you find where you want it to be, you stop. You stop clipping little edges off,

the front edge off of that call. I don't want to criticize, but I feel like folks at home would have no idea what you're talking about. Okay, I can go all the way back to... No, I know why. It's largely my fault. Can you explain a diaphragm call to people?

I mean, they could, hopefully they can just pick up their phone and type in like diaphragm elk call. Yeah. So we basically have three parts. We have a piece of tape. We have an aluminum frame. We have latex, whether it's single, double, triple stack. It looks like a filled in horseshoe. Yep.

Yep. You got to, you put this little piece in your mouth. That's maybe inch and a half wide inch deep and um that latex in whatever fashion it is vibrates um as you blow air across you get a seal with that tape all the air that comes out of your diaphragm your chest will go across that latex and it vibrates um and it's that vibration that gives us a different sound so you know how we have how we stretch the call the thickness of the latex the cuts the overhangs all that affects that sound we get out of that call and you can put one piece of latex yeah three four three yeah i mean you could use the the latex from a rubber right yep we we have uh used condoms on

when when the prophylactics and short supply so a lot of your good turkey calls you really send those out to folks oh we we have uh if you go if you were to go look at my call bin, I've got like tons of rolled up condoms, like on, you know, there's no, there's no coating on them, but they're just basically raw condoms that we can cut up and, and get squares out of and use to make calls. Mm-hmm.

And, uh. When you go down and buy all those at the drugstore. No, no, no, no. Are you like, oh, you know, just making some game calls. No, they're factory, no. Are you like, oh, you know, just making some game calls. No, they're factory direct. They come in big giant bags.

So it's the same latex. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for the most part, it's one of the types we can use. Can you use latex gloves latex? That's too thick usually. That's usually like five, six mil. Everything we use is like in the four thousands. The max we use is like five thousands latex.

So it's really thin, like dental grade latex. And when you say tape, the body of it's made out of tape. Yep. Tape. It's, it's really gaffers tape. Everything that we use on our calls is basically just the colored gaffers tape.

So you have to. Really? We have everything in house then Seth, to make us some calls. We got plenty of gaffers tape. You guys got condoms, you guys got condoms tape and aluminum, pop cam. where do you get the frames from you have a manufacturer design and then we have a progressive die so it takes like four stages

you know the first stage it'll it'll cut this or cut the center out the second stage will shape the frame third will cut the perimeter and then um it spits into a little bucket so the thing builds like and you do that in-house? No, we don't do that in-house. So we outsource that. So. Gotcha. That's one of those things. It's just, it's too time consuming and it's, it's expensive to do in-house.

So. Are you guys like stamping the, the frame out of like aluminum or how does that come? Yep. That's just, um, we, we specify the thickness. We played with that. Um, we apply adhesive backers. So there's actually adhesive on the inside of that clamshell. And then it's just a little, it starts its life as a strip that's as wide as that.

It runs through that progressive die and punches it out in like four stages. Our normal, our turkey call frames that don't have like the amp dome on the top, it's only like a three-stage progressive die. So it's just, you know, there's guys that are a lot i'm you know even as an engineer there's guys that are tooling engineers they'll just they'll look at our drawing and say oh this is the most efficient way to build this part yeah so what we were talking about is when you make one of these calls you stretch the you stretch the elastic or stretch the latex and then there's all kinds of manipulations you can do to the latex cutting little shapes and doing them whatnot yep and that's always done on the top read correct and you can do it on

the bottom read but it doesn't have any effect i mean you can cut the heck out of the bottom read but it's that top read that has the overhanging material that vibrates because you're pushing air basically from the bottom to the top those top little fingers or any of the overhanging material is what's vibrating, giving you that rasp on a turkey call. Where on an elk call, you see that we usually always have a leading edges straight and that's so we can get those clean, more elk like sounds.

We don't want anything overhanging. You don't want any rasp, you don't want any noise. I mean, yeah, or on the elk call side, we'll just do that with our voice or, you know, throat or whatever. So our buddy likes to, I don't want to i'm not gonna i don't want to insult your business maybe even encourage it no no our buddy is so particular our buddy guys

zuck is so particular he's been on this show he calls turkeys he a lot of times he used to be a competitive no call caller just mouth mouth caller voice but he's particular so he likes to get one that's not been cut because he likes to make his own little cuts in it with fly tying scissors um do you do you sell stuff for that purpose you have a lot of people that like to do that that are so finicky we don't i think i mean and that's what it's unfortunate that um you know we're trying to design these and build them for the masses and so i think think Guy sounds like he might be like a one-percenter. Like nobody wants that. They want to be able to open this door, call out the package,

and be ready to roll. But when you – here's what I'm trying to drive at. So then Yanni explained he – talk about what he does with his scissors again. Like how he cuts that little – he cuts that latex piece. Yeah, he definitely had – there was a set of steps to make sure – like he would pull it one direction cut it and that would make the little u and get in there make two little cuts within the u this is all on the top read and you go to the far end of that piece of latex cut a

little slit and i'm talking little it's like micro 16th of an inch probably and then shave like a 16th of an inch off the overhanging edge and then as he called on it if it was too raspy he would back off and keep cutting and shorten that top read until he got the sound he liked i need to put my reading glasses on just to think about him in there doing that which all makes sense i mean the more overhanging material the raspier then so the more you can you know cut that back it's just we try to get you know when we do all our cutting we're trying to get you to 95 percent of the way there that's you know i hate to say the word good enough when we're trying to build really good calls but you know we get there that call is good enough for 95 percent of the guys that pull out of the box

right and i wouldn't trust 99 percent of people taking scissors to one of our calls because they're going to screw it up in some form oh yeah i don't have yeah he also told me to keep mine he made three of them for me and told me to keep in the fridge. Yep. Fridge and freezer is by far the best. Oh, really? Yeah. Freezer.

Freezer. Get them dry and then throw them in the freezer. Same with your spear gun bands. Is that right? Yep. I hang mine in the garage. I know. You're supposed to keep a spear gun band in the freezer?

Yeah. Huh. All right. I'm going to have a little area in my freezer full of calls and spear gun bands. That was a common question we had a lot we asked for questions um for this podcast about elk calls and calling and whatnot and a lot of people ask like how long do they last what's this and what's the best storage can we can we hold that a minute i still need to put this one id to bed okay then you can pick that up when you saw the guy's up cut were you like oh i've seen that a thousand times that ain't shit or did you look at it and be like huh no we we make a corner cut call that has a real similar

cut now where he takes it to the next level when he's putting those little micro cuts in he's he's releasing tension in that upper reed to pull that tune in the way he wanted you just like i say we've seen that cut it makes sense on why it works the way it does but we just we do a corner cut and then we don't put any micro cuts in gotcha and i believe the corner cut right what he liked about it is that he feels i think that you can get raspy on one side of it and then blow on the other side of it and get that clean sound to be able to do a kiki run exactly and that's why the combo cut's the most popular tricky call cut because you have, you have the triangle and the overhanging on the left side.

Then you have like a clear space on the right side. And so you can direct air at different directions on the call and clean it up or add rasp. Are you serious? You're doing that? Oh yeah. And so.

You're channeling the left, right, left, right. Yeah. So, and I'm, I'm not even a tricky call nerd compared to some of these guys. Some of these guys will like, I'll get an email like, Hey, I'm a right, I'm a right, right side blower. I'm like, um, okay. You know, an email like, hey, I'm a right side blower. I'm like, okay.

You know, I'm like, well, can't you just move the other side? Because we usually cut like our combo cut. I always put the V and the triangle on one side of the call. He's like, can you build that call for me in reverse? I'm like, well, can't you just blow the other way? You know, but some of these guys are that particular.

So these turkey cuggles, they're nuts. Turkey colors are nuts. Seth, are you a right or left caggles, they're nuts. Turkey colors are nuts. Seth, I don't even know what you mean. Are you a right or left blower? Left side. I'm just dead nuts down center. Center, man. I'm showing Cal right now.

Were you open your mouth? No, like they're directing either most of the air here on the right side of the diaphragm or the left side of the diaphragm. And if you had the overhanging material on this side and you directed it to the right side, you'd have cleaner sound. Or if you directed it at the cut and you overhanging material,

you'd pick up more of that rasp. Maybe I do that stuff, but I sure don't think about it. That's all right. There you go. That's next level turkey calling. Yeah, I'm gonna get a shirt. If your buddy guy Zuck would lower himself to using other turkey techniques than calling,

you probably wouldn't have to mess around with any of that stuff, such as decoys and fans and things like that. He doesn't like those things. Says he doesn't want to call. No, he was impressed by my custom turkey fan. Different guy. Oh, is it? Oh, sorry, I screwed that up.

Who's he talking about? Parker? Parker. No, this guy is named Guy. Which confused the hell out of my kids when they met him. Like, what's his name?

It's like, his name's Guy. No, what's that guy's name? He doesn't like to use decoys. Nope. But he did like my fan that i made he liked how creative and inventive it was do you remember that um okay now i'll go into what you're going my my fan proved

his reasoning for not using decoys he'd rather mess up with the calls or something else that he did as opposed to having the decoy mess it up and i'm like no but this fan works every single time and so i went and sat down where we knew a golfer was coming through in the afternoons and i saw the gobbler coming and as soon as the gobbler got within range of seeing that decoy he picked up his head he looked at it and he turned around once looked at it turned around again looked at it and then turned around third time and walked away the more yeah the more i look at your what's his name oh you had a few names dirty Harry slim shady before I look at the more incredulous I get it just is like were you incredulous about how many turkeys came running to you know but but the more I look at him the more I can see that some turkeys

would be like what? I thought you had that problem in Wisconsin that's what I heard that Slim Shady was scaring him away no the only bird that he scared away was that one in Michigan that like guys like prophetically said that it would and then it did all right go on with what you're going on about uh what we're gonna talk

about uh storage and length of a lifetime of a call speak to that you know they're during use like practice I would say you know six months a year out of them no problem turkey calls um especially flat turkey calls double triple reads you're going to get you know years out of them um it's just the way they're designed and constructed now like our elk calls the amp frames the way we stretch that latex is a lot looser so that they're more user friendly um you know you get six months to a year out of it but i say during hunting season you're probably switching out diaphragms once every three days um If you're bugling a lot. Seriously?

Yeah. It's just that, I mean. Cause so you make the amp frame that's meant for people that suck at calling. No, I mean, we all use them too. It makes our job really easy. It's they make the right tone. Oh, I love them.

But, but the one downside is you stretch them so loose, the latex fairly loose in order to get that ease of use that you will tend to, you know, blow them out after three days. And it's not necessarily blow them out. The diaphragm just gets tortured when it's in your mouth all day. That's really the driving factor on wearing that thing down fast versus when you're practicing at home, you know, you pick it off the counter, blow on it for 10 minutes, throw it back on the counter and it gets a chance to dry out. Where when you're elk hunting, you typically have that thing you know stuffed in your cheek for you know hours on end and that's really what starts to tear that thing apart just being wet all the time uh guy zuck warned us against eating um

buffalo squirrel legs and stuff like that and then using your call do you believe that like just specifically buffalo squirrel spicy spicy foods i. Oh, spicy. Spicy foods. I'm more. He says it'll weaken the latex. I'm more worried about sugar sticking everything together. Oh, okay. Like, you know, somebody taking, especially like the external cow calls, but all this stuff, if there's multiple layers, you know, you drink like a Gatorade and then you go blow on the call right away. Well, now you got sugar in every crack and everything sticking.

And salt. Yeah. Yeah. So. Is that right? I never thought of that. Yeah. Sugary Is that right? I never thought of that. Yeah. Sugary stuff, especially on the externals for sure. Like that makes those, those mylar reeds stick up.

And so, you know, just swig out some water before you go crank on a call. How do you know when it's no good anymore? This doesn't sound good anymore. For us, it just starts to get dead. Like you go to hit a high note bugle and you're really trying to like throw it down the canyon. And it's like, it just kind of falls on its face. Is it cool to drive around with them on your dashboard in the hot sun? No.

Well, it's cool for me as a business owner because you're going to have to buy some more calls. I have that problem, man. A lot of times I'll get in my truck. It's so hot it burns your legs. And then I'll be like, and my calls land and I'm like, ah. Yeah, no, it's not good. Support Phelps game calls. Yeah.

Leave it. Dash. That's our next product that's coming out is your um diaphragm dash store you just you line all your diaphragms up on your dash and cook them to 160 so you gotta buy some new ones i like to uh open up my little call pouch opening day of the archery season and and then start digging through all my diaphragms that have pine needles and odd coloration to them and start popping those in my mouth and being like. I've found them in my clothes dryer and assume

those are no good anymore. Where you're leaving your pants pocket. Some of them make it through. I think Dirk, you sent one through the dryer. Yeah, I sent one through the dryer and it still sounded pretty good. Pretty good. It wasn't fresh and articulate, but it was

pretty good. Do you guys get product returns where people return that it doesn't work? We do. Because they don't know how to use it? We do. I usually try to take care of them in like a roundabout way or give them a different option,

but you do. And it's tough because you don't want to tell the person they suck. Would you just call them on the phone and be like, here's the call. Here's your call. No, I've wanted to. I've wanted people, if it wasn't so gross, send them back and then I'm going to send you an audio file of me using that exact

call you sent back and the thing does work, but we usually take care of them. But yeah, there are a lot of people, especially this time of year, you know, new callers getting them and saying this thing doesn't work and you're just kind of bite your tongue and take care of them. Here's one, here's one.

People will call up. They had bought a diaphragm, used it a bit, put it back in the Ziploc baggie it came in, and they seal it up wet. And then they, like two weeks later, this thing's moldy. It's moldy. Well, you put it back in there wet. It's fermented spit. Yeah. It's gross.

Yeah. You can't do that. That's bad for calls. It's gross. Yeah. You can't do that. That's bad for calls. It's bad for everybody. Bad for Phelps customer service too. Bad for hygiene. Bad for a lot of stuff. So keep them, you like to keep them in the freezer. Yep.

Dry out. I mean, I'll just lay them on the counter for two or three hours after I use them, let them dry out. And then, you know, so I'm pretty fortunate. I just go build new calls when I want calls. But, you know, but if you're going to, if you're buying and investing in these things, definitely, you know, fridge and freezer, dark, dark kitchen counter, you know, or dark drawer,

any of that stuff will work best. Is it bad to soak them in mouthwash? It's not, the acid in there can definitely break them down. I know a lot of people like brush them with their toothbrush at the end of the year, you know, or clean them off, but I would advise not putting any, you know, some of that stuff is abrasive in your

toothpaste or mouthwash. And alcohol in there too. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's alcohol and, you know, pretty acidic. And I think I would stay away from any of that sort of stuff. Okay.

I've never had no alcohol in there. Because I've done that. I've done that a few times. Yeah. Soaked it in mouthwash. Yeah. Just to make sure like there's no funk growing on there.

Yeah, I'm with you. You know? Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle

or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers. You're brothers get irritated well if you're sick of you know sucking high and titty there on x is now in canada the great features that you love and on x are available for your hunts this season the hunt app is a fully functioning gps with

hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24k topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right, we're always talking about OnX here on the MeatEater podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it. Be part of the

excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all.

What's the most common mistake that people make when they're trying to start learning how to call um keep it general any kind of call i think the most common mistake is someone will pull it out of the package put it in their mouth and try to do a full big nasty bugle and not succeed and be like well i can't do this obviously i don't know what I'm doing. You hear that a lot. And I always like to preach fundamentals, learn how to make noises first and then turn those noises into elk calls. What kind of noises?

The one I like, the high-pitched noise is probably the hardest one to make. You kind of go to it, kind of a mosquito noise, I like to call it. Let me throw a call on this here. Here we go. Tell us what you're pulling out of your pocket so i'm going to pull out an amp reed this is the maverick this is the one i designed with jason and uh and i taught my kids how to do to call it with the same concept so you want to make this highitched mosquito noise. So that segues into how to cow call. So once you kind of figure out how to hit that high-pitched mosquito noise, then you roll that thing around in your mouth until you can do that.

Yeah. And then once you make that mosquito noise, relax your tongue. So I just kind of let your tongue fall away, and then you'll start hitting the pitches of a cow call. Dropping your jaw. Right. I struggled with diaphragms. I mean, I'm still, like, not at all remotely great, but I struggled with diaphragms for a long time and then realized that I had it about a half inch too far forward.

Oh, wow. And once it occurred to me where it belongs on the roof of your mouth made all the difference. Oh yeah. You too far back, you'll gag. Yeah. Too far forward, it'll make your tongue tickle. Yeah.

Yeah. So. When I first started doing it, I'm like, how could anyone ever bear this the feeling of that and then then i went like gradually back back back and the more i went back back back the more i was like oh this isn't like the worst thing in the world but it's a great regret of mine not um devoting more time to learning how to call when i was younger my brother danny always liked to call ducks whatever and so it was kind of like as long as someone liked it they just became like the

person that did it you know and you weren't forced to do it but my guy wish like not learning spanish and not learning how to call better earlier are two huge misses because it's frustrating man it is and then i think you know some people that spend a lot of time not necessarily being great or not doing it the right way it's tough to like rewind and say, all right, the call needs to be placed here. You need to do this. You know, they're just kind of trapped in that. Well, this is as good as I'm going to get. And then they just ride that out.

That's pretty much where I, like, I have a range of noises where I'm like, they achieved the results I'm looking for. And I've basically stopped my education there and I need to like keep going. But every year I'm like, yeah, I'll just do this. Yeah. And that's the beauty of it. Like, you know, guys, guys like me and Dirk that can, you know, call the, you know, all these sounds and make all these perfect tones. You know, I think, you know, like you just said, you're effective with what you've got. I don't, you don't have to. And that's another thing that rolls right into the beginner. A lot of these

guys learn to call or, but then they go out in the woods and they're super unconfident. Like they got a bull bugling and they're like, I'm not going to call or I don't want to screw this up. Where it's like, I think, you know, we've called in some horrible sounding elk,

you know, and it's just, you'd be confident and make that sound and see what happens versus new callers. Just, they might play around with the calls. They go out there and they're just silent. They, they're scared to do anything. My brother and I,

when we first started calling, he sounded horrible. It sounded like he stepped on a rabbit and then kicked a we first started calling, he sounded horrible. It sounded like he stepped on a rabbit and then kicked a chihuahua or something. Yeah. Sounded horrible, but he would, he would put so much emphasis and so much emotion and into his calls and just piss off the elk. They would just come. And I'm like, that sounds terrible. But man, bulls would react and they would come in. I think a lot of guys make the mistake of making that real pretty bugle over and over and over again, but there's no emotion to it you might hear that scent that guy you know in

the woods it's like yeah over and over again oh yeah yeah you might get a bold answer but you don't piss them off so step out of the box and let her rip you know make some tones that are a little off that's okay as long as you're putting some emotion into it we are it sounds like a bull that's just making a noise for the sake of making a noise which they do versus the bull who's like hey this is where i am or where the hell are you guys i'm gonna fight you yeah but you hear some crazy sounds too though oh yeah yeah but i we when we were first starting first started elk hunt we'd sit there all the time and debate, is that a guy or an elk?

Is that a guy or an elk? And I remember one time we were hunting the Sapphire Range and convinced ourselves that it was a guy because not only was it like you're saying, just that like perfect little bugle over and over and over again, but it was coming from up by a road. And we'd get up there and walk into, you know, 20 cows and a big bull standing there oh man and i'm like man how do you know you say you can always tell right no there's there's been duped yeah well i don't want to be so it's like a pride thing i don't want to be called in by a hunter or somebody to see me and say i called in phil big phil i called in phil so

there's been like a lot of times like i'm ready to bail like last second bail i'm getting and then here comes a bull coming over the ridge and i'm like i'm glad we stuck it out yeah somebody's gonna have his phone pointed at you get on camera you better be hoping he's using your calls he's using your calls you'd be like oh that's why it happened, bro. Yeah. Hit him another one, Yanni. Yanni went and solicited these questions. That's right. Thank you for everyone

that helped us out and participated. Should we stick with the beginner type stuff while we're here? What is step one? We got a lot of that. Like a lot of beginners

just being like, where is step, like give me ground zero step one? We've got a lot of that. Like a lot of beginners just being like, where, where is step, like, give me ground zero step one. What's the first thing I need to do if I want to learn how to alcohol? So, uh, I mean, we do a lot of marketing, you know, we've got all of our signature calls. I would say, don't jump into those right away, even though I'd love you to buy one of minor Dirk's personal calls, like start at a different level. And I don't want to sound like a used car salesman, but get to, and because what happens is, you know, there's different latexes, different thicknesses. If you maybe buy the gray and don't try the black, you might say, man, I suck at this, but that gray doesn't fit your calling style, the way you,

you know, apply pressure. Um, so our recommendation is typically by, um, and I'm going to get pretty specific in our own line of calls here, like the black amp and gray amp. And this goes for any brand though. Hey, sorry, we've been saying amp a lot, but I don't think anybody knows what amp is yet. Can you explain that? Amp is, is the frame that we developed. It's, you know, it's got a bunch of amplify, um, aluminum metal plate. There's a bunch of different acronyms we tied all into that amp. Um, and so the calls that, that are these amp, you know, they've, they've got the logo stamped on our calls. Um, but it's just, it, it's basically got a radius, a hybrid plate that sits over the latex. And what that does is make the call easier to both cow call and beagle. Back when we made the old school flat frames, um, it was kind of a,

it was a one or it was either cow call or it was a bull call. And then to make a call, it did both. It just wasn't great at anything. So the nice thing about these amp frames is they're smaller. They fit, they fit most people, you know, narrow pallets, high pallets, but it really gives us as a designer or call builders, you know, a call that it is good cow call is a very good bull call. And you don't really want anything else besides that one call once you find the one that fits. So that's, that's what the amp, when we refer to amp, we're just talking about the specific series of diaphragms that we make. And that's what you recommend to some mug who's like dying to get started.

Yeah, unless you're like the 67-year-old guy that says, I've been using those quadruple frame delt calls for the last 50 years. Then we'll maybe send them over into our triple reed flat. But if you're a new caller, definitely start with the single reads in the amp frame. Just name a call. What? Name a call they should buy. Black amp and gray amp.

Oh, okay. So they would go and be like, there that is. Yep. And so I'm- Black amp. This is one of marketing genius on my part because nobody ever calls the dang calls by their name. They're like, hey, I've got your one call that was white.

I want another one of those. So you're like, oh, you mean the dirty hairy yeah yeah and so purple nurple yeah so so it just made sense on on the normal amp line we just called them by their color so you got amp black that is marketing genius it just makes my life way easier than having to try to figure out what color talking about yeah yeah you'd be like you know what do you call it it's the gray one yep that'd be the gray one so that so the amp black and amp gray are what we recommend to all new callers. Try those. Let us know which one you like. That way you don't get stuck buying 10 calls that might not work for you or three calls that might not work for you.

If you tell me the amp black is your go-to, I'll say, all right, let's get green and orange next time maybe. Or if the black is all you need, that's the other thing we get. Hey, man, I really love your gray call. What other one should I try? I'm like, more gray calls. It's like, you don't, don't keep like searching for like this, you know, the grass isn't always greener just if it works for you, stay with it. But, um, the other thing we get into is like, I don't want to oversell everybody. Like, well, do you want a beagle? Well, you might need a beagle tube because our diaphragms need to be

blown through a beagle tube. And so then you get the questions. And so if you are going to get a beagle tube, if that's your intention is to go out there and locate bulls and call bulls in with bugle tubes, the larger unleashed or the renegade are going to be easier for you to use. We also have a backpacking version, the Unrivaled. It's a little guy.

That thing is sweet. It's a lot nicer, but it's, it's not quite as loud, doesn't have quite deep of tones, but the one positive is. The carryability. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's way less room in your pack and it still gets the job done. But a new collar is going to find that the larger tubes easier for them to use.

Oh, and you could beat a barrel with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can play pine cone baseball and during lunch break and all kinds of stuff. Hey, have you ever, that's a good idea. You could play pine cone baseball with that. Have you guys ever, I know you'd only sell like five of them. Do you guys ever make a moose tubes? We do.

It's just a cutoff version of our bugle tube. So every year when the draws come out, I can almost tell when the draws come out. Cause somebody will say, Hey, will you modify me a tube for moose call? And so we just cut rather than the back pressure on the end of these larger tubes. We'll just cut them at that first. So you don't get any back pressure. Yeah. But you still need to be able to beat brush with it.

That's why it's nice to have a pretty heavy duty. Yeah. No, we, yeah, we just cut them at that first so you don't get any back pressure. Yeah, but you still need to be able to beat brush with it. That's why it's nice to have it pretty heavy duty. Yeah. We just cut them at the knuckle. We don't market them, but we will make them for people. What makes this bugle tube different than just going and buying a wiffle ball bat and cutting the ends off it and blowing through it? Big Bertha. You know that wiffle ball bat?

I'm going to let Dirk go ahead. So we started out with wiffle ball bat? I'm going to let Dirk go ahead since. So we started out with, with a wiffle ball bats, right? And, and, uh, like Phelps game calls, you used to sell wiffle ball bats? I used to buy un, unbadged fat bats. You know, the little kids fat bats. Big Berthas. Yep. I would buy them. I would say, Hey, they had a mold that didn't have the fat bat logo in them. Send me those ones. And I would sit and modify fat bats for days in my shop. What, heating them up and putting a little lip on them? Yeah, I had a big industrial lathe. I would put like a hole saw on, poke the holes in the end, you know, sit there and run them through, cut the ends off, burn them, smooth them

over, you know, modify those. And so when I was told that fat bat was no longer making, or that mold was basically done, it was no good anymore. It was kind of a blessing in disguise for me as a company. Cause I'm like, all right, now I've got to go get my own mold made. And at that time, I'm like, let's take everything we, we like about the bat and include it, but let's take everything we want to add to it at this point, um, and add it in. So, yeah. And the thing is the trouble with those bats, you don't get the right back pressure and back pressure equals like good note articulation. So if you struggle hitting those high notes when you're bugling, um, and, you know, getting those, like hit that staircase of notes, uh, you, you would struggle with one of those old bats,

but with these new, uh, engineered, um, bugle tubes, uh, Jason went through a lot of, um, trial and error with what's that computer program that you did? I'm a nerd. I'm gonna let everybody know I'm a nerd. So, I went and got charts over like, you know, male lung capacity at different ages. And so, there's a program, I'm gonna let all my competitors if they're listening. Well, you don't have to say what it is. So, there's a program called SolidWorks, which is basically a mechanical engineering program. I could build this back, say, let's send a 30-year-old male's volume through this. What back pressure do we get, you know, based on the end size hole?

And so I could sit here as a nerd and say, all right, we want to change the shape. And I added corrugations because we didn't want all that air just flowing down the sides of that tube. So you can feel that we added corrugations. We wanted to disrupt that air and get some reverb back in the tube. So there's a lot of stuff we did that was based on, you know. Explain the back pressure just a little bit more because I'm not quite following. So let's say you see how big this tube is. Yeah.

For everybody that can't see, we have a four-inch diameter big tube that looks like a kid's wiffle ball bat. Yeah. Like I could knock Giannis out. Yeah. 24-inch long wiffle ball bat. No problem. Or you can take, let's say like a one-inch piece of PVC, like just fundamentally you're

thinking like, well, that one-inch PVC doesn't take near as much air, right? Because it's so much smaller. But the way that works is it actually takes more air to run a diaphragm through that one inch PVC because your air is just straight flowing through it. Whereas when you fill this, I kind of imagine you fill this tube up with that initial amount of air. And then the cup at the end actually kind of just backs the air up down the tube all the way to where your diaphragm's at. And so you can kind of relax a little bit. You don't have to just run, you know, 100% max air through that tube

because the way we've cupped the end and designed that hole size, it kind of lets you relax in there at like, you know, 50. I'm just going to throw crazy numbers out there, 50, 60% air. So you're saying you're still getting the same volume and energy you're just using that tube to basically assist you on running that diaphragm rip a couple big bugles you guys and what's really crazy like if it's cold out and you're out you just rip one big old bugle and you just slight soon you just slightly take your tube away from your lips you can feel air come rush back onto your lips a little bit. You can feel that back flow that back pressure flow on your lips

It's weird Interesting. So I'll rip one first. Sorry Jason. Yeah, just leave this here Oh, you got your own who's this Yanni's that's mine. You can use it Guess you fired up. Gives me a little... Go ahead. You picking that up, Phil? Oh, yeah. Behind your little curtain over there?

See a bunch of smoke come out back there. Everybody listening, that was a blue call and a red call. So if you want to sound like that, you got to buy the blue call and the red call. This was like a batch I just made for the World Calling Championships. Scratch, scratch that. Cal said I was blown on a pink call. What did you make those for? We just got back last weekend

from the World Outcalling Championships in Park City, Utah. Really? So what goes on at that? I noticed someone asked about that. See how good the hosting that was, Giannis? I was going to mention it. You're going to point out the hosting skills?

Yeah, what goes on at the World Outcalling? You get up on stage and call the seven judges behind the screen. Like Phil is right now. Yeah, yeah. on at the World Elk Calling? You get up on stage and call the seven judges behind the screen. Like Phil is right now. Yeah, yeah. Phil wouldn't know. So he wouldn't have known who Dirk or I was right there, and he would try to tell you who he thought was better.

The first caller. No, caller number one. Caller number one. So, and you guys are competing? Yeah. Yeah, we. Not judging, but competing. Dirk absolutely hates the fact, and he doesn't want me to ever reference it,

but you're six-time world champion? I don't know. He hates that fact. He hates to use it for anything. Because you don't sound like a blowhard. Yeah. He'd rather take pictures in September behind a dead bull is his prize. But you've, okay.

I've won it several times in the men's division, right? Yeah. The men's amateur. What was the last year that you won? Three years? Four years ago. You and Damien had all the call-offs three years ago. Yeah.

Four years ago. Four years ago, I won first, yeah. And what do you win when you win? Cash prizes, and then you win a bunch of cool crap, you know, rifle scopes and bows and rifles. And it just depends on the package they put together for the year but i've won rifles before and um i think i want to but i don't think i ever won a bow but how many times did you win the world championship like six times seriously yeah how old are you 45 but i've lost a lot more more times than i've ever wanted i mean i started competing in 96

i think 95 95 it can I feel me in 45 I'm 45 I hate it yeah I got a weird I got weird aches and pains yeah 101 is right now in there oh really I would never have him do a guy like Seth no it doesn't like a tricep upper tricep no it's like it's something weird pinch nerve in there cuz I'm doing the Armstrong pull-uh. No, it doesn't happen to me. Like a tricep, upper tricep? No, it's like a something weird pinched nerve in there. Because I'm doing the Armstrong pull-up regimen. Uh-oh. It's getting painful.

Are you keeping up with the push-ups? I haven't been doing that part of it. Did you put a bar in your house? I got a bar in my house and I hung two at work. I hit that one upstairs yesterday. I'm sure the production team really likes your placement. Oh, is there a problem with the placement? No.

One of our colleagues thought that me and Seth hung it up to hang beavers from. So I'm like, what the hell kind of beavers do you think we're? I think it's a fair question. Yeah, we've been flashing beaver hides in the morning a little bit. We've got a few of them done. But yeah, someone thought it was for beaver hanging. It's like, how are those people going to get through here when you hang beavers from that? It's just a pull-up bar.

But, yeah, I don't know, man. So, you like being 45 or you think it's hard? No, it is hard. It sucks. You know, you can't build muscle mass like you could before. It's hard to get back into shape. I mean, a guy should probably stay in shape year-round, but rounds are of shape too. And I kind of tend to go that way in the wintertime. But man, I wish I knew back when I was in my twenties, what I know now and have like the gear, the quality calls and the gear and stuff that I had back when I was 20. I wish I had them back then. Man, Idaho had tons of beautiful elk

back then. Not so much anymore. It would have been, it would have been awesome, but hindsight's 2020. So. I'll tell my brother the other day, man. I was like, dude, we lived through the good old days, man. Yeah. It's crazy because I get older every year and it seems like the hunts I go on are harder and harder every year. Like not just because my age, but we're going to like some nasty, nasty places before we'd kill elk in a lot easier places. And now it's just like to get them consistently, we're going to some stupid places. And I'm like, I thought when you got old, you kind of got to go back to the easy stuff again. And I'm like, when is that going to happen?

Yeah, well, I think a lot of guys get old and with age comes like you become more financially secure. And so you just start hunting private land. Yeah. I don't think I can do that. Well, it's just, I mean, it's a thing that happens, right? Yeah. Cause you're like, you know, we'd be like, I think nothing that we'd walk nine miles

and carry a cow out. Right. You know? And you don't like, you don't run into a lot of 70 year old dudes doing that. No. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out how much longer. I mean, I got, I'm planning on having a lot more left in me, but if I live, if I live

all the years I've been alive over again, I'll be dead. Right. Yeah. And that, I don't like the feeling. Yeah. Yeah. I got a buddy don't like the feeling of it. Yeah, yeah. I got a buddy, his dad's pushing 70. So he'd be 140.

Yeah. He's a tough old bird. I mean, that guy hunts some nasty Idaho backcountry, very few elk, lots of wolves, you know, and they consistently kill bulls, you know. But he's just a tough old guy and he's had knee surgeries and back surgeries and everything, but he just, he, he just like, I'm going to do this until I can't possibly walk up the trail anymore. When I meet, if I meet a guy, like when I meet an older feller and he can form a pretty good sentence and still does a lot of hunting, I'm always like, how old are you? And if he says like 65, I'm like, wow, sweet. 20 more years still some more 20 more years you know that's awesome how old are you now seth uh gonna be 28 in august my goodness man i'm almost be your daddy

not quite it's no sure he is yeah he is like physiologically? Sure. It is possible. But in our generation, not, well, that's not true. I guess there were a few dudes that made babies that early, but not. No, most people were. I mean, I remember by the time I finished high school, I remember four girls would, when I was finishing high school, there were four girls that would, their moms would bring their babies down to show them off at the end of school, at the end of the school day. Yeah.

Wow. There's a lot of. I didn't have any of that. There was a fair bit of attrition too from drinking and driving. Oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

I think that's changed a little bit too now. You mean within your high school? This has nothing to do with pregnant high school girls. No, I'm talking about kids from high school getting killed off from drinking, from just vehicle accidents and drinking and driving and whatnot. Anyhow, what's the next one you got, Yanni? We strayed a little bit, Jason. Let's get into some tactics.

Unless there's anything else you guys want to say about the World Outcalling Championships. I like how getting older immediately quickly transit. You touched on birth, new life, just briefly before you got into just death. Yeah, that's called premier hosting. I'm 45. I didn't want to leave everyone on a negative note when I talked about young people having

babies. Jason, can you over call an elk? And how do you know if you've done it? That's a good one. Everybody says don't call too much. So I'm going to break this down in two segments. Location, I don't think you can over-locate. The thing is either going to answer you or it's not.

I can locate, throw another locator, like there's an elk down there, there's an elk down there. I think when you move in close and you get set up and try to call this bull and i think you can over call um you know sometimes they're you know playing the game they're wanting you to respond or they're wanting to respond or they're moving in close and that bull i think silent sometimes is your best key you let him know hey i'm within 100 yards of you and that thing gets you know somewhat curious to come find you versus if you keep hammering or to keep calling you're gonna that bull's just gonna potentially take his cows and go away.

What do you think he's thinking when you over-call? Is he thinking that's a mug, or is he thinking that this is some crazy elk that I don't feel like dealing with? I think he just doesn't want to lose his cows, this crazy bull that's down there calling. I think that's more of his, you know, he's going to grab his cows and try to get out of here if you're just going to sit in that one spot. You know, some of the out-of-the-box stuff, I know you hunt out-of-the-box as well, Dirk one spot, um, you know, some of the out of the, out of the box stuff. I know you hunt out of the box as well,

Dirk, sometimes, but you're like just bugling as you walk towards the bull. Yeah. You risk it. What do you mean you hunt out of the box? So I'm not just, I mean, we do all these seminars and stuff like, oh, you set up 70 yards away.

Oh yeah. So I'm just going to keep rolling with the situation. I'm just going to bugle and keep walking at you, you know, and some of this stuff and that bull is like, well, now he's coming, I'm going to have to go deal with him versus if I sat at 120 yards, bugled, bugled, bugled. he's like, well, I'm just going to grab

my cows and get out of here. That thing's not coming any closer. Um, versus if you were to beagle that same amount, but start walking towards him, it could be a completely different situation because now he has no other chance, you know, choice, but to deal with you. Um, so yeah, I think you can definitely over call elk. Um, typically I think at the point I know I've over called elk is when his next beagle is 150 yards, and then he's 200 yards. Typically, then we'll have to reset up, move closer, and then try to do it again. When you're calling to an elk and all of a sudden he splits,

do you feel that it's possible to say he splits because he still thinks I'm an elk, but he's grabbing his cows and going, or he splits because he still thinks I'm an elk, but he's grabbing his cows and going, or he splits because he's just suspicious. No, I think you could definitely stay with him. He just doesn't want to lose his cows. So there's been many times where we've called bulls and on the fourth, fifth, sixth setup where we're just kind of shadowing him, trying to get closer and closer and push his buttons. And all of a sudden he's like, okay, now. Yeah, he'll finally turn.

Yeah. his buttons and all of a sudden he's like okay now he'll finally turn yeah i feel like sometimes too you'll get those stalemates and those bulls will want you to show yourself they're like all right i've came all this far it's time for you to come my my way a bit because he doesn't he doesn't want to get shot and killed well if he's believing the calls though he thinks you're a bull and if and if you watch a lot of elk behavior they kind of they like kind of like to check each other out a little bit. Maybe kind of, they do that little walk thing by each other and kind of show each other off. And it's like, I don't know if I want to fight or I do. And then they decide to fight. And I think they want that leap of faith. It's like, all right, I've came this far. You got to give me something. Show yourself or come closer. And sometimes if you don't show yourself and you've had a

stalemate, let's say that bull's 50 yards, you can't see him in this kind of thick timber or something. And then they sometimes just kind of move off. I think he thinks you're a coward at that point. It's like, yeah, you talk pretty tough, but you never really showed yourself. So usually if they're trying to leave, I'm running at them. I'm taking off after him. I rip a big, nasty challenge bugle and I'm running towards them to say, Hey after them I rip a big nasty challenge bugle and I'm running towards them to say hey where the heck you going man come back I want to fight and I've done this a lot and it works pretty good that's cool man but that's like that's like having a really good understanding of his temperament man yeah it's cool I kind of go all in on one of those deals

it's like every time I play play the the the the, the elk game, you know, back and forth bugling with this bull, it's like, I'm going all in. This is, this is a one-shot deal. I'm probably not going to come back to him in a couple, you know, just kind of tiptoe around the edges and then maybe have something happen. And if it don't work, I'll come back in a day or two and try him again. Now I'm going to go in there and, because what do elk do? They usually, they bugle back and forth. They come together, they fight, they, they figure it out and then they go their

separate way. So I'm going to go up there, get in, get in his face and try to push him, try to make him mad, appeal to his anger, make him make a mistake to where he finally just says, heck with I'm so mad at you. I'm not going to pay attention to wind. I'm just going to come in a straight line to come right to you. So. Well, I guess here's what I'm trying to ask. I'm not asking it clearly. A thing that's rolling around in my head, though, is spooking him, meaning revealing to him that you are not, in fact, an elk. Yeah, yeah. How much—

By calling. By calling, by running at him, by potentially. And so it's like, I think that that, one of the ways it prevents people from getting super aggressive or running after an elk or doing these different things is because you're not trying to reveal your hand. So is that, obviously that's floating around in the back of your head too, right? Yeah. And it's like a last ditch effort. I always believe in my calling all the way to the end. He's never going to spook away from the calling, but he'll spook away if he sees me. So you don't think that, like, if you're a passable caller, you think that, and even

if he leaves and takes off, you don't think that that elk, that that bull is like, I don't buy it. I think that's a person. Because he's doing weird stuff. Maybe if you're hunting in an area where there's, he's had a lot of human contact where he's been messed with before, maybe spooked around, but sinned some guy after he's been bugling. I always wonder, do they even know? Like I'm over here bugling and then let's say the wind changes

and he sensed me and takes off. Does he think that's a dude over there bugling or is that an elk? And then some guy snuck up here and I smelled a human. I mean, I don mean, I always wonder what he's got going on in his head. We were one time bear hunting and we hung our food up in a tree and we came back

and there was a pine squirrel eating a block of cheddar. And then we ran after it screaming to get our cheddar back. And I always wondered if he thought this was the weirdest day he'd ever experienced. Like one, that he found a block of cheddar. And then two, some dudes showed up.

Or if he put together like. That was your cheddar. That I found these guys cheddar and they showed up. Like when he recounts that to his friends. Or maybe he thought. Is he like a man when it rains, it storms. Because then. He thought you wanted to steal his cheddar.

Oh, yeah. He's like, you know, strangest thing. I found some cheddar and then some people came and stole my cheddar. Yeah. I never thought. That's a good point. The elk's like, no, there was an elk. He was bugling.

But then some guy showed up and I ran off. Right. Which there's been times where they've winded me or us. And in a little while later, we kind of took back in with our bugling match, you know, back and forth. And I don't know if that elk was just super dumb and not used to smelling people. Or if he actually thought, well, that's that bull and that dude's probably gone now. I don't know. But most of the time when they smell you, it's a game over.

It's over. But there's been a couple of times it's like, why did this work this time? I mean. Yeah. If you spook an elk, how long do you wait? Like, let's say you knew you had an elk in a basin and he's kind of hanging around there and you go in and you bump him

because you blow him out. And then all of a sudden the next day he's bugling back in there again. Are you like, man, I'm going to wait three days until he totally forgets? I'll give him a couple of days. I'm going that next day. Public land, man.

It's tough. Like, cause you don't have it to yourself. Yeah. But I've done that, waited the two or three days and have some other guy walk in there and kill him. So maybe you should go in the next day. I got a question. So, you know, there's all these areas, right? And it's like, oh yeah yeah you can't bugle like

you will not you can't call elk here right growing up montana missouri breaks is like oh lots of bulls in the breaks big bulls but you can't call elk and then uh going down working in new mexico same deal like oh yeah you just can't call these bulls in You know They're educated Here in Arizona too It's like oh you can't call in big bulls You mean because they're saying Because they're educated Just the way they act

My impression was always like I cannot call in a bull Which means nobody else can call in a bull I got what you're saying I got what you're saying I thought you meant like they hear Because you'll hear that too Like they hear a call

And they go the other direction Yes exactly Or these bulls know each other so well I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I thought you meant like they hear, because you'll hear that too. Like they hear a call and they go the other direction. Yes, exactly. Or these bulls know each other so well that any new bugle is just like an alarm. I don't buy it. Yeah. I've talked to some guys, you know, even the big outfitters and stuff. Oh, you can only cow call our bulls down here in Arizona and stuff. And I've talked to some new buddies.

He's like, I would love to see you guys come down here and hunt your style. Like everybody tells you guys, you can't, but he's like, you guys would come down here and run through this place and have a good time. So I just want, I just want the challenge of, you know, going to, I went to New Mexico and the same thing, oh, you can't call these bulls. They come to water, they go bed.

That's their life. And we had, I mean, we called in, you know, two or three bulls every morning, you know, bulls every night. It was just incredible. I'm like, I don't believe any of that stuff. Um, I just, I or three bulls every morning, you know, bulls every night. It was just incredible. I'm like, I don't believe any of that stuff. I just, I don't, I think those guys just hunt different. Like it's a different, different mindset or people hear it and they get down there and get scared to do it.

They would do up here and I just want to go down there and rip at them. And it worked. Yeah. At least in New Mexico where I hunted. I got a buddy that he was told, oh yeah, you can't bugle bulls in Arizona. And he's had two Arizona tags in both times. He's like, we, we called bulls in all day long, every day. They were just, they come screaming in like nowhere else.

I don't know what people are thinking. Yeah. So. Part of the head game. No different than fishing. A lot of times. I think, you know, calling elk in really open country though is, is difficult. You know, it's more of a, you gotta be, a lot of use a lot of strategy before.

You can't just go, I can see out 300 yards away and blow your bugle. And they're probably not going to just come running to you. I mean, cause what? Cause they want to see it. They want that visual. Yeah. Yeah. I think you need to get in tight, use some terrain features, be like, you know, shadow the herd, use some terrain features to where you get close. Like they're just on the backside of a little ridge or a coulee or something. And then you do some calls and then wait for them to have to come up to investigate and then be positioned where you can make that shot. But you just can't bugle from 300 yards away. That's like calling too much. You're standing at a burn, bull standing over there bugling at you and you're kind of pinned down. You don't, you can't just continue making calls

because they're looking, they might not see you, but like, there's no elk over here. They know exactly where you're at. I'm going to bugle a couple more times and see if there's any elk there. But then they're like, there's nothing there. And then they, they, then they kind of take off and then they make it, it makes them pretty tough to call at that point. Cause then they're just suspicious.

Yeah. They're just like, nah, I don don't i don't buy that i like that what you're saying about getting in their zone you know um what i always like about it and this same thing with turkeys or whatever is uh when it's far away it's like you don't really know what their response is but then when you get close to something and call to it you kind of quickly like find out this is a this is this a thing or not yeah you know i mean it always feels good we were hunting in kentucky and we had elk tag in kentucky and yeah we're sitting eating lunch weren't we and janice ripped a bugle and i mean this bullet walked up because

he couldn't have taken three steps but it was like we just happened to bugle right on top of him and like up out of his bed oh Oh, right, right, right. Come over and check us out because he's like, dude, that thing is right on top of me, man. And he had to deal with it. Oh, yeah. He had to pay attention to it. At least our strategy hunting with Dirk, we're trying to create that threat. Get 60, 70 yards.

Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're calling that bull in. It's not as cool to call them in from a mile away. But part of our strategy is to get in their lap and force them to come deal with us. Um, they're pretty territorial, you know, let's say they don't have cows. There's that transition phase of the rut where the bulls haven't left their little, little bull bedrooms throughout the drainage. They've got their little, their little home and you, you go from the top of the drainage, they won't answer. You get down in, you start dissecting that drainage. You go start hiking and through the bedding areas of those things, you get within 100,

200 yards of them, you'll get a reply and they're not happy that you're there. It's like, hey man, this is my spot. And a lot of times they'll get pretty aggressive and come in after just a little bit of calling. But the consequence of hunting a bedding area. You screw it up, they're gone. So I think what everybody wants to know is what works 100% of the time. Jason, you go first. Oh, no, he told us.

I put this to him before, kind of. And he described a situation in which he would be surprised to not be able to move that bull in his direction he didn't say it works 100 that was that was more of your like a scenario yeah it was like it wasn't your mature herd bulls it was a a semi-mature satellite bull that's off by his own feeding by himself during the middle of the rut yeah i. I would be 99% sure I could call that bull in. Yeah. I like that.

If I can find him, if I can find him feeding on a pretty grass slope all by himself during the middle of the rut. And we let him pick, he could be above it, below it, what it was doing, who it was with, the whole situation. And he was saying that he, yeah, he was saying I can move that bull.

If I could find that unicorn, I'll bet on myself. But it doesn't happen that way. I was kind of laughing when Dirk was like, well, you know, you're just not going to make like these big, clear, articulate sounds. And I was thinking to myself, well, that's not the bull I'm looking for. I'm looking for like somebody much less articulate, like doesn't quite know what's going on. You guys sound like you bugle a lot more than you cow call. Cause Dirk, you sound like every call you've made so far describing these scenarios is all bugling. Speak to that a little bit. So I want to, I want to appeal to that bull's, uh,

instincts to fight rather than to breed. It seems like, you know, and there's a hundred different ways to skin a cat. And there's probably guys that have cow called in twice as many elk and kill twice as many elk as me just with cow calls. But my experience with just cow calling in elk, a lot of times they'll come in very meticulous, very slow, very cautiously. They'll come in downwind, you know. Why is that? I think the number one, they're looking for a, maybe to see if, check to see if that cow is even in heat. They want to hear, they want to smell her. And then they want to see if there's another bull there.

Maybe there's another bull just kind of laying low and he doesn't want to just come up there and then, hey, baby. And then. Get his ass kicked. Yeah, to get his ass kicked on the deal. So, and then maybe he's had, you know, because a lot of guys that that's their jam. They want to, they want to cow call all the time. Maybe he's had some bad encounters with cow calls to where he's like, I remember one time I was up here and I seen a dude that was making that noise or something. So they come in a little more cautiously.

Whereas when you can appeal to their instinct to fight, they get mad. And sometimes you can get them worked up enough. They forget about when. All they want to do is come to you and kill you or run you off. And you're more likely to do that by bugling. Now, that being said, I will do some cow calls just to say, hey, there's something worth fighting for over here. You know, if when he bugles, I might give him like some very interested, like, hey, I like the sound of you, man.

Show me an interested cow call. Come over here. So here's your basic cow calls. When that bull's bugling, I ramp it up, show some emotion, like, oh, hey there, come over. Kind of put a little bit of yearning type of a twist onto it i can feel the yearning but uh but i won't overdo it i'll give two or three of those and then i'll hit him with a bugle and every time but i'll wait so so then you're yeah then she's saying like, yeah, I'm over here with a bull, but I don't like him. I wish you'd come over here. Right, right.

So I get the bull to bugle with the cow call. He'll bugle at the cow call. And then I say, with my bugle, I say, hey, don't talk to my girls. You shut up. I like that, too. And then it's like you're like telling him, no. Well, he's thinking there must be a reason he's, he's wanting to fight for these girls. And also I think it just, the whole, you're putting the ball in their court.

They're going to have to do something. So, and you kind of, you just kind of let it escalate a bit. It's not like you go for a third pay, third base, right, right on prom night, gets in the car, you don't French her, right? Exactly. You want to let that temperature build little by little. And you'll know because you'll hear his voice, the other bull's voice, and you'll hear the anger. And pretty soon he'll make a bugle that there's no mistake. He's pissed and he wants to fight.

And that's when you need to ramp it up. You feel like you can detect that in his bugle. Oh yeah. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. Does it have to be relative? Does it have to be relative to his other bugles? Or can you hear a single bugle and be like, I feel that that bull is pissed. Yeah. Or does it have to be like, he's more pissed now than he was earlier? Yeah. There's a turning point. Yeah. He'll be giving you this normal bugles. And then all of a sudden you'll hear the emotion in it and you'll be like, whoa, he's coming. He's going to come. And shortly after that, you'll start hearing brush popping. But when he does that, he gives you that, that bugle. I just hammer take, I cut, I try to cut him off before he's done bugling. I hammer him with just the meanest. When he gives you that,

that's a bugle. Yeah. And I just give it right back to him. And a lot of times that that's when he's going to start coming. And a lot of times after that, I'll just kind of, if I know he's coming, I'll shut up. That's when I clam up, be quiet. It's, it's time to time to come find me. So I'll just be quiet. But how, okay. How about if you're just trying to kill any bull?

That's any bull. But why is that bull, why would some little shaver, if you're in there just like bellowing and squallering and cutting them off, and like why would some little shaver ever dare come in to 40 yards? Well, there's some short dudes that walk around and think they're pretty tough. You know, they'll go pick a fight with the biggest guy in the bar, right? So there's some little, some young bulls that think they're pretty tough. You know, they'll go pick a fight with the biggest guy in the bar, right? So there, there's some little, some young bulls that think they're pretty tough.

And, and curiosity. I mean, I, I've killed the world's like smallest rafter full of like baby raghorns and, and I use the same strategy. Is that right? I'm going to kill that herd bull, but all these satellite bulls are, are still with the herd. They're just on the outskirts.

So a lot of times they'll just come wandering in. They might give you some little half-hearted bugles, but I'll still kill that, you know, small satellite bulls by the same exact tactics that I thought I was supposed to use to kill the herd bull. Gotcha. And then to reiterate on dirks, why I don't

think cow calls work as good, we're kind of reversed in nature at that point. That bull's got his for sure thing. Like I've got 10 ladies, I'm good. He's got satellite bulls around him, most likely. He doesn't want to leave those 10 for sure things to come get this one mystical lady out on the side until you add that bull in, you then just kind of turn, you know, change the game at

that point. So he, so he, when he bugles, he's like, well, this, this new lady should just come over and join us. We should be good. He's not going to necessarily leave, you know, and come a hundred, 120, 150 yards, leave all those cows with some of these other, you know, satellite bulls that have been pestering him all day to come investigate. You know, nature expects that cow to go to him. When you win that elk calling championship, did they ever give you a big belt buckle? No. Dude, that'd be sweet, man. No.

I'm caught to kind of lean on, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it looks like a pie plate. Yeah. They don't hand those out? They don't. They don't. You know, I think one year they they did give those out but of course i didn't win that year you know that was like the one cool thing they gave away but yanni yanni's being

all modest he's not like a six-time world champion but he's a good elk caller he might not be an elk competition winner but he's he's a good elk caller that's all that matters the thing yanni likes to do i'm curious what you guys think about this. He gets in there, he takes his jacket off, puts his gloves on, and he sets to whooping on brush and rolling rocks and whatnot sometimes. You guys big into that? Oh, yeah. Sticks are as important as the coals are. If you saw him from far off through a spot in scope,

you'd think you were looking at a certifiably insane person. Yeah. For sure. Running around in circles and figure eights. Busting trees. Throwing rocks. Yeah, he gets ready and takes his hat off. Yeah, a guy was wondering how big of a branch or log should he use when he's thrashing brush.

Yeah, we're talking something you'd bring home and cut up for stove wood. Yeah. Yeah, two and a half. You'd have to split it before you burned it. Well, sometimes if I can get just the right one that's probably like, I don't know, maybe six inches diameter in the middle when I'm holding it, and it's long. It's like eight to ten feet on both sides of me. I can be getting two pieces of brush at the same time as I'm swinging.

I remember once getting caught by a bull. I was sitting there doing that, holding this giant log. I look over, and there's a five-point standing there looking at me. I'm like, God, how come my guy's not shooting you right now? Yeah, and this is anecdotal, but he's in there doing all this and carrying on, and we had a bull kept bumping into us, bumping into me,

and trying to get around me to get to Giannis. He's like, there's that damn guy again. Let me try another approach. To go find out what's going on. He was one of to go find out what's going on. He was one of those. Find out what's going on on that hillside. Young, curious bull, right? That just is like, man, there's something going on over there.

And a person. Yeah. Yeah, I pick up the biggest branch I can find that's close and go at it. But how do you know when to do that? A lot of times I wait until, a lot of times it'll be that stalemate I talk about. They'll get to 50 yards and don't want to come in, but they'll start raking their antlers on a tree of their own. Oh, I got you. So I'll take into raking as well.

And then usually what happens, they'll stop and they'll bugle. And when they stop and bugle, a lot of times I'll cut them off. And then we'll both go back to raking. And this may take four or five sessions of this back and forth raking and them bugling, and then I'll cut them off. But eventually they get pretty worked up. You know, they're getting there and saying, I'm getting, I feel pretty tough right now. They're raking.

And then you're making them mad. You're talking smack every time he opens his mouth. Pretty soon they're coming. Yeah. Do you guys ever do any like pants or like moan into the tube just like with your voice? These guys don't wear pants out there. Yeah. We'll do all the sounds.

I don't do any glunking, you know, any of that, but we'll do moans. You don't glunk? No. Yanni's a glunker. Is he? Has it worked? It's part of the repertoire, so it's hard to isolate it. He's mixing up a whole cocktail, man.

No, we moan, growl, do all of that. Hold on. Show people some moaning and growling. I'll do some glonks, too. I don't know that it works. With a tube? Yeah. I don't know that it works.

Hit them with a glonk first. It doesn't work, Jason. A glonk? Yeah. I can do it with my mic. Hit them with a glung first. It doesn't work. Jason. A glung? Yeah. So I can do it with my mouth. Get up by your deal there, Mike. I mean, I just tap on it. So he's just tapping.

He's just got his bugle tube, and he's just tapping the mouthpiece. You can do the same thing by making suction. Get up close to your mic. You can do the same thing by making suction on the top of your mouth and basically sucking in at the same time. But in my opinion, I can't do it real well, so I don't glunk with my mouth but um no why don't bulls glunk why don't you glunk it's usually i mean at the time you can hear the glunk you're within that 60 or 80 yard window and i'm doing other things i'm trying to get my my release you know everything knocked up trying to find your yeah and then i can still make i'm not having to like tap a tube

make a bunch of movement because so you're saying when you hear it, it's like hearing a turkey drumming. Yeah, it's about ready to go time. Yeah, it's game on. I got you. Are there guys in the World Calling Championships that are glunking with their mouth real well? Not real well. No.

The kid in the youth division this year was the best. And it's to the point now where there's, I wouldn't say there's not a lot of skill, but I think even some of our judges don't even know what they're listening to. And so it's pretty risky to go up there and use some of your time to call them. Because they're doing like celebrity judges. They're not doing like judge judges. They're doing celebrity judges.

Yeah, it's all – basically, the majority of them were all like Utah outfitters and guides and stuff. The judges. Oh, so not celebrity judges. Yeah, not celebrity. Just behind the scenes guys. But yeah, I think it was pretty risky to do any of that. Well, they don't sound right. It sounds like you're beating on your tube.

It doesn't sound like an actual glunk. Right. If you could actually reproduce it well, I would definitely do it. But I'm not. It's tough. It's tough to make a glunk. Okay, do some screaming and moaning and whatnot. No, not screaming.

Moaning and. So, I mean, just that subtle, I mean, as he's tending cows. Get up. Excuse me. You know, as he's tending cows, as he's doing his thing, you know, he's just making those subtle, just, you know, elky sounds. Yeah.

What's going on when a bull makes a, like, muse cow call, he kind of muses and stuff? I don't even know what he's got going. I mean, they do, they cow call all the time. I don't know what the heck that means or why he's doing it. I've never heard him do it in the rut, though.

I had a bull one time. Every time, right before he'd bugle, he'd go, eh, and then he'd just scream. I'm like, man, he's got a cow over there. And finally, he came out

and I seen him do it. I'm like, what's he doing? But you never throw that in the mix. No. I mean, yeah. At the worlds? Yeah, that'd be a risky mix. Nah. I mean, yeah. At the worlds? Yeah, that'd be a risky business.

Yeah. Like back a long time ago. No, I mean hunting. It's just, it's so rare that you don't need to. Well, I'm mewing like a cow anyway. Oh, I got you. I got you. A little bit here and there.

There's so much noise in some of those situations. Like there's so much going on. Like I'm not, yeah. I don't know. I guess if you can pick out the subtle noises they can too would be a good the like the the heavy breathing stuff i'll do that like when it's really getting pitched back and forth but that's one thing where i'm like this is risky yeah like i just don't have the confidence yeah does this sound good to him? Yeah. Just like breathing through that tube really heavy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I've always wondered, I mean, you can do that, but I'm like, I hope this sounds good on his end as I think it does, because I don't, I don't know.

It makes sense in the conversation, but. That's where I just like resort back to, I'll just beat on some brush. I'm confident that that sounds right. Yeah. But the cow muse, I've mostly only heard them when it's late season.

They're batched up again, and they're sparring. They're doing that light little fun spar, and they're mewing against each other. That's when I've heard it mostly, when her mewing. Which brings me to late season calling. A lot of people ask, post- like, should I even bring calls? Do you guys bring calls? I don't leave, I don't leave house without at least a cow call.

If it's November, December, like let's say it's a late archery hunt in December, definitely have a cow call because you want, may want to stop it, stop an elk. But I think they're curious year round. Let's say there's some in a brush patch pretty close and you just like want one to come out to investigate. You start making a lost calf, excuse me, a lost calf call. Show us what that sounds like. Make like a lost calf call or a cow call. They might come over and check it out.

Especially spikes. Spikes are like, oh, man, who's over there? Is that my mom? I mean, they're pretty curious. So I think if you can make just a – Or my good-looking aunt. Yeah, my good-looking aunt. But, yeah, you want to appeal to their curiosity. What do you guys think when people tell you um it's september right early

september it's all hot and people are like oh it sucked they're not fired up yet are you like yeah i agree no i love it i'm gonna i'm gonna prove you wrong oh really just a second yeah so i i i think you can all you know if it's hot um you know, early morning, late night. But I think I feel like, and I haven't been proven wrong too many times, I can go in there and get something fired up eventually. If there are elk there. Last year in Idaho, I had some guys tell me there were no elk there. I'm like, ha, I'm better than you guys. I'm going to go up there and find. There were no elk there to get fired up.

They showed me. I feel like somewhere in that unit, it might not be in the basin I'm in or the basin next to it, but somewhere in that unit during September, I should be able to get something going. Yeah. I always come back to the fact, I'm like, this is their only time of the year to do this.

They have to figure it out. They're not going to waste, they're not going to be like, well, it's real hot. I don't really feel like mating for my one time of year that I get to mate you know like something's gonna happen what about when there's no noise right you know there's elk there but no one's making a peep do you go and look for new ones yeah the you know the old adage don't leave elk to find elk but a lot of times that's the game I'm playing. If I can't call it

in, I'm probably not going to be able to kill it where I hunt. Usually it's because big timber, a lot of brush. You can't just sneak around and, you know, sneak up on one and shoot it. So if they won't talk, I'm moving. It's funny. And it'll be, let's say September 20th and you cannot buy a bugle for some reason. There's like, there's no, the elk will not call. They're here. There's elk hearing the calls. I'll leave. I'm like, I'm driving 25 miles to a different, complete different drainage system. And you go over there and they may be on fire over there. I've seen that before, just regionally. And you might've been in that very spot on an off day. If you were there the day before, or they might've been on fire.

And then there's that, you'll have an awesome day of bugling and the next day it'll be completely quiet. You'll see that kind of fluctuate through the whole, the whole rut. So a lot of times if it's not going on here, I hike out, jump in the truck, drive 25, 30 miles, do a different spot and go hunt there. I think a lot of that has to do too man with with one cow you get that one cow that's in heat and all of a sudden you know everybody's you know fired up she'll light the basin on fire just at least in colorado i mean

obviously there's a whole bunch of elk there so maybe it happens more often just because there are more elk but plenty of times in third season which is normally you know first week maybe even to the second week in november there's some raghorn opening morning that's bugling that you can hear his away and he's not bugling for no reason there's a cow that's in her you know second cycle or whatever yeah i have a theory and you guys i want you guys to weigh in on it so and my uncle told me this when i was young just getting into this whole thing he likes to hunt on the end of like at least six or seven eight ten fifteen dry days in a row he's convinced that when it rains and washes that cow's scent away that it kills the rut for a day or two because her scent is now washed away whereas though you know those semi-mature satellite bulls that are running

ridge tops running finger ridges can pick her scent up after four or five days, you know, wherever she laid her scent down. Whereas that next day it rains, he's like, it's going to kill the rut for like two or three days. And I've kind of always, we've always had good success. Like if we can hunt through a dry section, but then as soon as you get that rain, I'm like, it may just be the weather slows them down. But I'm like, I wonder if, you know, that kind of kills the rut. And so I love that September. If I can get a bunch of dry days, whether it's hot or not,

it seems to be better. Really? I never heard that. And I feel like that would fall under the thing of that you just have a wide open schedule. Yeah. And you live in your spot. You know what I mean?

Because I would never be like, ah, I was going to go. But it rained. But it rained yesterday. Yeah. I just can't picture someone like actually acting upon that. No, I'm in the same way. Same with moon phases.

There's only so many Septembers. So I'm like, I'm hunting. I'm hunting the whole thing. Well, yeah. But fresh snow. You don't have that many left. Fresh snow in Montana and Idaho. Like I have had a lot of screw it,

I'm going to go hunt and had the worst days of like fallen elk tracks around in the snow. Nobody's playing. Nobody's talking. I think that absolutely shuts them down. Yep. Yep. I think of wet when you get like, it happens every year.

That wet ass September dump of like four inches of slush. It does take, it's just like like it just ends the party and often i find that they just like up and move crazy places they like pack up and move eight miles or whatever yeah uh one thing that i like confidence kills right like whatever i'm gonna do may not be the right thing but i'm like really sending it um you run into the the cow that calls back aggressively and i feel like she is like no no we're not doing this again and she's gonna go in and like grab the bowl and take off like when you get like that challenge back from the cow that's like when my heart sinks and i'm like ah boy i'm real out of i'm i'm not up to snuff on this one

yeah like i just can't figure that one out and that has killed me several times so what what is this do you guys have like the thing like if you hear it you're like well chances are our chances just went from 60 to 8 so like separate from your situation like what is our situation where yeah a bark a wolf a wolf howl a bark no show people a bark um that's a good bark that is good that's really that's a really good bark so um yeah that's that's a great bark it kind of it kind of goes back to the why do you know how to do that because it's one of the required sounds during the outcalling hunt oh it is yeah yeah you have to you have to polish yourself do you ever screw do you ever like mess other hunters up by getting

annoyed with all the hunters and barking before you leave? No, that'd be good. Maybe a little bit. I might have done that once or twice. I definitely bark at a cow that's barking at me. Yeah, and that's what I was going to get back. So it's like you can't fool their nose ever back to your guys' elk leaves. You can sometimes fool their eyes, but that's typically, I think, when you get barked at. They've seen or heard something that's a little bit off, but they haven't smelled you. They're going to bark at you, and then we bark back at them. It's not necessarily going to save the whole situation,

but it may give you just enough time to get a glimpse or to keep them around long enough before then they tear down the canyon, barking at everything the rest of the way out. Have you ever had, have you ever been working a bull and had a cow that's with the bull, not off to the side, but like a cow with the bull bark, and then you killed the bull? No. I think they've always ran away. I hate that sound. I hate it.

Yeah, they're usually, it's usually gone. Like, I haven't even had a cow that's barked where if she was a bull, I'd had enough time or the opportunity to shoot it. She's hung around like behind the tree that she saw me behind, you know, and then, or she'll maybe run up a hundred yards and keep barking at me, but it's like, I would have

never even had an opportunity. Do that bark again that bark again i like that bark a whole bunch he's barking through his beetle tube so a lot of times that's like the worst noise on the planet why are you enjoying it i hate it more than a deer blowing i hate it more than that what about. I hate it more than that. What about a wolf howling? What's your feelings on that? Do you feel it shuts them down? It does. My area in Idaho, which is more wolf infested than anywhere else, I elk hunt consistently.

They will rip one day in the basin, but if we hear them howling in there like that night when we're eating dinner, there will not be an elk either in there or there will not be an elk that makes a sound in that basin the next morning. Yeah. So we'll typically just like, oh, we heard them in there, we're going to go the other way. I've had the opposite experience though, man. I've packed out several bulls with wolves howling in the basin. And they were making noise.

Oh, and it's like, I think it's just like a safety in numbers thing. Like, yep, there's wolves here, but everybody's here. We got this. Yeah. Or the chance that it'll be me. Yeah.

I've had guys say that they've heard bulls bugle at the wolves. The wolves will howl and the bull just scream at them. But my experience has not been that. If there's wolves howling, you'd think a spaceship come along and took the elk away they disappear and be quiet i'll get up and i'll drive 25 30 miles again to try to get completely out of their range because you know those things will cover a lot of ground in a day 5 10 15 miles you know a day the wolves will well so i just get the heck out of there and find somewhere else. I definitely use wolves against people. Yeah. Because no matter what you see or talk about, like, boy, the fear of wolves, either messing up a weekend or whatever, is so strong with people.

Oh, you got to use a lot of wolf sign up there. Oh, yeah. I'm going to start using wolves against people too and just bring a wolf howler with me. First thing in the morning, let a wolf howl out of the bottom. Hopefully everybody leaves and I'll have it all to myself. Yeah, just go a mile up the trail and set an electronic collar. Just keep trucking.

I'll go past that so the elk didn't hear that and I should be good to go. I had that this spring with turkeys, man. We got right to where we needed to be at first light and we're just sitting there trying to hear the first gobble, you know, in a nice big Montana meadow. We're at the upper end of it, and right on top of us, like a, you know, it always sounds like eight coyotes, probably just two or three,

but just go nuts for like, I mean, I'm like, all right, it's been three minutes. Come on, guys, like shut it down already. You know, I'm thinking this is just over. We should just start hiking right now. But we wait. We let it quiet down and 30 seconds after they quit, oh, down at the other end. That was a piss poor gobble.

It was a very distant gobble. Do another one. Oh. Couldn't you hear it out there in the distance? You ever hear Yanni's way far off elk? Do it, Yanni. This is an elk super far away. Okay. elk do it honey this is a elk super far away

hey folks exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear from the canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes and our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right.

We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services hand-picked by the OnX Hunt team.

Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com

slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. Some guy wanted us to have a contest. He wanted to have a contest on who could make the best way far off elk sound? Yeah. Can I hit another question?

Yeah, please. Or do you got one? No. I think it's easy. One guy's asking, how do you set up when you guys are alone? People are pretty familiar with the – it's easy to visualize the concept of two guys. So one guy's calling, and he's trying to pull a bull past the shooter. The bull, he's going to approach cautiously.

He might not want to get more than 70, whatever, 50 yards from that call, and so you got your shooter out there, and hopefully that bull will come up and hang up and cut some half circles, and he'll be right in the zone of the shooter. But when you're by yourself, what do you guys, what do you guys like to do? It depends on vegetation. Like if I can move a little bit, I'll make my first call just like it is a two caller setup and I'll move in the direction. I think that thing's going to try to circle where I made that first call from. So if I'm at 80 yards and I think I can get away with

like 15 yards to my left, I'll make that call there knowing that the wind's going right to left. He should circle into my new location off of my first call. You can't always do that. To be honest, 99% of the bulls we call in come in straight on. You're playing that wind directly perfect. What do you mean come straight on? They walk a straight line. Yeah, you're not going to maybe get a broadside shot.

They're just going to come directly at your location on a one-man calling setup. Your best bet is hope they hold up at 20 or 30 and, you know, do the pacing back and forth, show themselves. Um, but we don't really, I mean, with a cameraman or with our caller, like I want to be able to communicate with my caller. So our setups are really, whether there's two guys or one guy, um, they're really similar. And we talked about that threat earlier. If you send, you know, the Will Primo's on the Hill Ranch scenario, I can't send my caller a hundred yards back because that, that caller, who is now the elk is no longer a threat when I'm sitting. You kind of lost me there.

So if you send your, like on a two man calling setup, when you used to watch the old Primo's truth videos, you know, they would send the guy a hundred, 150 yards back to call. Well, if you're a hundred yards away, the caller is 150 yards behind you. When I'm trying to call a public land bull, and it's really tough to get him to commit. Um, so we like to have that caller be the threat. Only because they're just different. Cause they're, they're far enough out of a circle

that he's not too worried about, you know, having to defend his cows or come investigate. So we usually like to have that call right with the shooter anyways, and we can communicate that way. So our single man setups are really similar. You know, the caller just calls. And like I say, you can sometimes play that wind a little bit. You kind of know where your shooting lanes are going to be based on the wind, but we're still aggressive.

I'm doing the same exact thing that we talked about earlier. So I use a lot of trickery when I'm by myself hunting solo. So as the bull's approaching, he gets in that 60 to 70-yard range, and I get that confirmation bugle where he's pissed and he's coming. I might give him just one more, but at that point, I'm going to start doing some trickery where I kind of throw my voice and make my call quiet. So I'll do maybe a cow call into my gloved hand. I'll have my glove on and kind of- Oh, yeah. To make it feel like you moved.

To mute it, to mute it. Or I'll kind of cut my hands and force it to a different direction. Or I'll take my bugle tube and aim it completely opposite of me or off to the side a little bit, whichever direction I want him to go. Then I'll cover the end of my tube with my hand a little bit and let a little air come out between my fingers and I'll make a really quiet bugle. And it'll, it fools them. I've had bulls come running by me and I'll have to stop them. I'll have to scream right in their face to get them to stop and turn back around because they're going up the hill. Because he's convinced you moved. He thought, he thinks I'm up the hill a hundred yards at that

point. Yeah. So, and you can make a pretty decent, you just don't have to use as much air and it kind of changes your airflow and your back pressure dynamics over there. Those sound like far away. Not as far away as Yanni's bull. Right. But far away. But a lot of times if you can do that, it's just like, okay, he's not in this spot anymore.

He's over here a little bit, and then they'll come walking by, and you can whack them. Be a new one for the national championships. You do a bull that's five miles away. He's getting closer. And now I want it a mile away. Yeah. Yanni, write that down.

Write that down. Why are you highlighting all kinds of stuff in our document? Oh, the ones that I feel like we've already gotten over so I can see what questions are left. No, we didn't do this one. Which one did we not do? What's your feeling on, i think you kind of answered maybe you didn't answer this people are like oh it's pre-rut it's peak rut it's post-rut are you changing your game or you just out there hunting i'm just out there hunting i'm pretty prescriptive i do the same thing now if it's it's really early

you know late august um first september um maybe a little more cow calling than typical, which is still not very much, but some of those bigger bulls are still roaming, looking to gather up the herd. And so I might do a little bit more cow talking. And being a call company owner, this kind of sucks, but a lot of times those patternable bulls in that late August, it's sometimes just better to go kill them without making a sound. Okay. But it's really hard to say, really hard to say. I'd rather call that bull an oil fired up,

but if you have a specific bull or have some elk pattern, like maybe not even make a peep and go kill them. Really? But sometimes. That's not going to sell any calls. No, but sometimes they're on fire late August. So, I mean, it's kind of matched what's going on in the area you're in.

If you go and hunt an area on August 25th and there's not a peep, then I'm probably not going to just hammer on my bugle all day. But if they're going off, then I'm going to join in. Yanni, is this a real question of a guy being kind of snarky about Phelps? About the bugle every four seconds? Yeah. Probably. He's probably some insider that knows these guys.

Can I read it how he said it? Sure. Why do all the guys at Phelps feel the need to bugle every four seconds? Is that the voice he said it? You think he typed? I feel like we – I really do feel like we hit it. It's funny. I'm glad you brought it up.

But we hit it right off the top because Jason said. He's like, I can't over call when I'm trying to locate elk and usually that's by bugling. Well, that's why you highlighted that one. Yeah. If anybody's ever been in a real rut fest with elk, bulls will bugle every five seconds, literally, when they're on fire and chasing a hot cow or whatever. I mean, there'll be bulls bugle every five seconds.

I've had bulls come from a quarter mile away, bugle almost every step, just, just man, this is going to happen, you know? So I, I think you can't really over bugle at the right times. You can sure overdo it at other times at the wrong time, just it's situational. And it kind of depends on, on where you're at in your conversation with your elk. And we do, I mean, that, that question, you know, it's probably very directed. You know, we've, I think all of us, everywhere we've been, you know, we've, we're heavy on the bugles. Everything we teach is heavy bugling. I think people can get frustrated because we're out there. They think, you know, we're over-calling or telling people they should over-call. And there's just right times. Like we're not out there just bugling, you know,

from the truck window or doing the stuff you're not supposed to. It's somewhat calculated. We're trying to bugle into new basins. But I just, I don't think you're educating them until they, you know, you either call them in and wind them, you know, if they've been messed with. But at the point where you're just, if you sound enough like an elk, you're just basically saying, hey, I'm up here. You're wanting to get a response, hey, I'm down here.

Or, you know, or hey, I'm over here. I don't, and it's hard. I mean, we're just speculating what's going on, but I don't think you can shut down a complete area just by over-bugling if you sound like an elk. You know, from maybe an outsider's perspective, let's say this guy's watching you from the other side of the basin or other side of the drainage, and he's watching you walk up the hill and you bugle every every two minutes when you say a guy you mean an elk or a guy a a person a human is watching you and you're like walking over here and you're bugling you're walking over here and you seem like that guy needs to shut up why is he bugling so much but on your side you're looking at terrain features okay you're up on a on a ridge You're bugling down into these canyons, right? Well, if I walk 100 yards this way,

I've got a little different angle down into this draw where I'm bugling to. You know, I've had this before where I couldn't hardly hear a bull walk 100 yards, and then, wow, I can hear him really well. Yeah, I mean, how many times when you're hunting with two dudes where the guy who's five feet 10 feet up the mountain above you he's like did you hear that you know and i'm down below i'm

being like here what yeah we're staying next to each other on the trail talking yeah all sudden there's like three guys all of a sudden two of them frantically point in some direction third one's like what yeah you know i like he's like you're like in the middle of a thaw or you're getting right. You know what I mean? Whatever, man. You just, it's just different. I liken it to fishing. I mean, you don't just go up to your fishing spot,

throw one cast out and be like, man, no fish in here. I mean, you, you cast this way every little bit, you cover that entire little spot where you're standing in the river before you ever move, you go up, you know, however far to start casting again. It's the same with elk hunting. I mean, you've got to probe every little spot. There might be a bull that can't hear you or you can't hear him.

And it's like, oh, there he is finally. Or many times, you know, you locate, locate, locate. You might be 600 yards on the trail and one answers, you know, right back to the spot you bugled three or four times ago. It's just, you don't know if they're eating, what they're doing, if they're paying attention or just didn't feel like answering you when you were that close. So what does why do you, what does all the guys at Phelps mean? How many guys are there? I know your mom and your wife are there. They call too much. I think

it's more of our, our, uh, end users, you know, the, uh, I think we get your, your, your, uh, disciples. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of us, us, the born and raised crew, you know, Dirk, all of us that, that teach and hunt the way we do. And, you know, we bugle a lot. So I think they I just shadow the herd and I wait for my opportunity. And then there's our camp that bugles all the time. So they're probably saying, yeah, those Phelps guys. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you guys kill like a shitload of elk every year.

We try. Like between you guys and born and raised, like I don't think there's a reason to be like snarky about why you guys call too much. It works. It works. I mean, I think it's just people maybe get a little bit disgusted, you know, somebody's in their area and then just people bugling all over it.

And so I think it just kind of generated that, that hate for bugling. Oh, you've heard that before. Oh yeah. I mean, in Colorado last year, I mean, we were, we were trying to chase the real bull while trying to avoid like the three other fake bugles that were chasing us. And we were trying to stay between them and the bull that we got going. It was just, I mean, there are a lot of guys out there bugling in some of these areas and so i can see why you say hey everybody just put your tubes away but you know

this one time in idaho i was hunting with cory jacobson and donnie drake and we got back to the pickup and there was a note on the pickup it said if you guys were hunting up the basin this morning, you bugle way, in capital letters, way too much. We bugled a normal amount. You'd go up the basin, you'd cover around, you'd make a big loop, and you're probing, you're listening for elk. I mean, we didn't bugle excessively in our mind, but that guy was probably like, listen to those idiots down there. That's hilarious, man. Divisive. Yeah. You guys build Divisive. Yeah.

You guys build a new facility. Yeah. Yeah. New shop, new warehouse, office space. Finally. Make us way more efficient. Still got a day job? Yeah, part-time.

Part-time. Training my replacement. But it's about- You're training your replacement? Yeah. It's about a two-year process. So what we do is not normal. But you know that much stuff? Yeah. Well, it's just, it's not normal and it's about training to replace. Yeah. It's about a two year process. So what we do is not normal. Like, you know, that much stuff. Well, yeah.

Well, it's just, it's not normal and it's cyclical. So you're always doing something, uh, as a granting, you know, you write grants and interview grants. So it's like, well, on this day, you don't do the same thing you do like next week. So it takes about two years to go through and,

and figure it out. So hopefully when that's all done, we'll, we'll look at reducing the time there. I love seeing it though, man. Like someone like built, you know. It's awesome. Like making a cool little business and growing it up. I just throw everybody to Dirk now.

He'll take care of you when I'm busy. Yeah. No, he does. What else we got, Yanni? I'm getting into Yanni's brain a little bit here by looking at how he highlights stuff. I would think that one, in my mind, one highlights things that are meant to, that you're supposed

to pay attention to. Yanni highlights things that you're supposed to ignore. So if Yanni left you a note and highlighted parts of it, you'd think that he was highlighting the parts that were important.

It's just a result. But he's highlighting, he's actually highlighting the parts that are least important. Yon, let's just switch to a black highlighter real quick. It'll fix it. A scratch out. You might want to find a strike out feature. Yeah, that's pretty, that's like, yeah. You just figured it out.

My highlight means that we're done with it. Good work. So the fact that it's not highlighted makes me feel that Yanni wants to talk about. This is good. Hit him with number 23, Yanni. Number 23. Oh, would you rather call a bull uphill or downhill? Downhill.

Sidehill. That's not an option. I need to straight question because for me it doesn't matter. It's like, well, whatever the wind's a trick question because for me it's it doesn't matter it's like well whatever the wind's doing that's gonna yeah I mean let's just assume that the wind's good in both those situations. I think in my opinion calling bulls downhill they've got gravity on their side you know two bulls that think they're gonna posture up that bull coming from uphill towards downhill has got the advantage at that point so I think he'll come more easily down yeah because he's got an advantage

with gravity on his side. Yeah, if I was on a steep pitch and I was supposed to fight Yanni, I would be like, I'll take the uphill side. See, exactly. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Now, why do you like sidehilling?

Okay, so you have your thermals that go up and down, right? Okay. So let's say here it is, 2 o'clock in the afternoon, you got this bull going. You get on the side hill from him. Okay.

It's easy for him to come straight, straight across to you, which they, they prefer. Most elk trails do come across the hill. That's a good point. So it's very easy. You make it easy for him to come to you. And also you're, you're, you're strategizing with the wind. So it's middle of the day, got a warm hillside. You got thermals going up.

Then all of a sudden big a big cloud comes over. What's the thermals do? They go back downhill. Sometimes they swirl a little bit, but hardly do they ever go straight sideways. Yeah. So you're kind of stacking that wind in your favor to where, you know, if the wind does change that, or if your side hill, let's say that bull drops, you can drop really quickly to try to get on his same level again so he don't get your wind, or you can climb and not as far if he's trying to go above you and get your wind.

I'm feeling you. Yeah. You know, it's funny you talk about how trails, you guys ever spend much time in wild pig country? Mm-mm. No. Because you get used to how trails are on hills, always angles. They're either side hill or they cut those switchback angles,

all your trails, you hit it like that. In wild pig country, I see trails just going smack up hills. Oh, wow. Straight up. Trails running straight up a hill. And you don't even think about it. Then you look at it and it's like, that's the weirdest looking trail. Because you realize how many trails are shallow,

shallow crisscross-y kind of networks. Okay, so there's that one. Hit them with another one, Yanni. I like 27. I do too, but they already answered it. We can ask it again, though. No. They've answered it in a roundabout way.

Is blind cow calling while creeping through the woods a good tactic? What I'll do, rather than creep through the woods, let's say I haven't heard any bulls and I'm just covering country. I'm going from point A to point B and I don't want to be quiet. I'm cause I got to get there. So as I'm walking along, stomping on brush and kicking rocks and stuff, I'll just throw out a couple cow calls every little bit. Johnny likes to do that. Yeah. And a lot of times, even just walking through the woods, popping brush without a cow call,

you'll get a bull that's close by. He'll fire up and be like, hey, you're an elk. I know it is. It's gotta be. Yeah, you located my bull last year in Colorado when we were just walking through cow calling. Was it a cow call or a beagle?

I think he cow called there just one time and he answered. Here's a good one. I like this one. What about a guy that's, let's say you were hunting a cow tag. What do you bring out in the woods for calls?

Exact same. Spike or cows, I'm still going to locate that herd bull or get a bull to answer because the cows are going to be around him. Is that right? Yeah. So at least start the game the same. You're still going to move in and get the win right? So you're out with a cow tag and you're bringing your bugle. Yep.

I mean, cause you, you, the, the game's still 95% the same right until the end of, you know, how are you going to kill that cow? And then I would probably keep that bull bugle and then just more spot in stock at that point. Just try to squeeze in close enough to the herd to get a shot. No kidding.

Versus calling that bull in. Yeah. That's interesting. Same with spike hunters. You know, I got a lot, hey, we can only hunt spikes in Eastern Washington this year. What should I do? I'm like, pretend like you're hunting the herd

bull right till the end and then cow call them in. But then don't shoot them. Yeah. I don't know how many times I've had spikes come running just like, oh man, there's somebody else over. Hey man. And then too late.

So seriously, like you go out like hunting a cow tag or whatever, you go out and you're bugling to find elk. Oh yeah. I mean, I would still glass first thing. Like if I didn't have to make a sound, it would be ideal. But say they're all, you know, going to timber and the brush, you can't spot them anymore.

I would just go back to locate and just like hunting big bulls. Hmm. That's going to piss a lot of people off because they're going to have all the cow hunters out there bugling. No. That's interesting, man. That's interesting. Or, I mean, you don't necessarily have to be a bug you know you can chase the real bugles that you hear without locating

them but i i just feel like you can force your hand you know force them to make sound a little bit better if you had a location bugle with you yeah i'm liking that number 30 that's boring different well my answer is my answer is you pick whatever one you want no my answer will be That's boring. Well, you just make it quick. You pick whatever one you want. Make it quick answer. My answer will be boring, but it's a good question. Are there different tactics for calling Roosevelt elk versus Rocky Mountain elk? You got a copy? Yeah.

Mine's not highlighted, though. Our guests are prepared. I don't think you should give them a copy of the questions. Dude, how are we going to get a gotcha moment? You got plenty of those so the difference between roosevelt and rocky i i was fortunate enough um grew up in the willow hills gave you a copy of the questions he wanted us to be prepared we had to we had to google all these well the do you find your aunt attractive question wasn't on here yeah yeah hold on that can be a bit of a gotcha.

So growing up, you know, an hour from the coast of Washington, grew up, all I knew was Roosevelt elk hunting. Fortunate enough in the last 10 years to get to hunt Rockies, they sound exactly the same. We call them exactly the same. The one main difference I feel in the areas I've hunted

is that the Rockies aren't really tied down to necessarily a core area. Where like Roosevelt's, they will live their entire life in a one mile one and a half mile circle um is is the main difference is that right interesting for the most part so like you get a white tail i hear that about i hear that about uh black tails in the rainforest too people talk about he'll have a zone man that's where he lives yep the same with our elk we grew up as a rifle muzzleloader hunter like you spook the elk like you might as well just

the way they went turn around and walk the circle backwards and you run they're trying to get back to where you know you spooked them and and get back to their core piece of timber and where rockies it's like you bump them and next time you see them they're like five miles away running the next ridge still they're just gonna go find a new place to live yeah you know or whatever but that that's the main difference like calling is the same you know our our roosevelts chuckle more, I think. Sometimes, you know, I would say half the bulls don't even get a high note bugle. They just, they chuckle, which is a little bit of a difference.

But, you know, other than that, they all sound the same. Yeah. I've never hunted Roosevelt, so can't really comment on that. What are the main states you like to hunt? Love Wyoming. I've hunted Montana once. I'd like to hunt um love wyoming uh i've hunted montana once i'd like to hunt arizona someday but idaho is basically my go-to because i live there you know close to home and yeah it's probably

the worst elk hunting in idaho right there close but um it's close and i know the area and and it's easy to get away you know speaking of getting away guy to know, what's the best way to ask my wife to extend a hunting trip without getting in trouble? All that is, is preparation before hunting season ever gets there. That's all the lead up. So you pay your dues all winter, all summer. You're married?

Yeah. Okay. With your wife. You do all those things with your wife, you know, let her know like, Hey, I really'd like to take an extended vacation this year elk hunting. And then. So you start, you start laying the groundwork when?

As soon as you know, you're going to go hunting. Say, I'm going to do, this is my plan this year. And then, but that, you know, I'm going to make sure you get, you're into the deal good too. You got kids? Yeah. How many? Yeah.

Two. How old? 21 and 23. Nice work. Yeah. How many? Yeah, two. How old? 21 and 23. Nice work. Yeah. They're out of your hair. Yeah, they're out of the hair. One of them's making his own money, and my daughter, she's still in college.

So pretty soon maybe we'll get them off the payroll. So now you're only 45. Yeah. And you're out and saying. That's what I'm talking about, man. You got all that over with. Right. I'm 45, and I got the whole deal ahead of me.

But the bad part is being 45 and being an empty nester is now who are my friend options? Like, hey, let's go hang out. Well, I can't. All my people my age, they got little kids. So, well, we got baseball. We got this or that. Well, now it's like old retirees, you know, like 60 year olds. Like, hey, you want to go?

I don't know. I don't think I could do that. Well, no, you got guys like Seth. I suppose I could. 28 year old retirees, you know, like 60-year-olds. Like, hey, you want to go? I don't know. I don't think I could do that. Well, no, you got guys like Seth, the 28-year-old. Yeah, true, true. They're interested in other stuff. I'll come home. Yeah. There you go.

There you go. Okay, so I want to get back. I need to get a better snapshot of what. Because if you were, like, divorced three times, right? Yeah. Then I'm not going to pay attention to what you had. We'll just strike that out. Yeah, I'll be like, I had to find out what we're working with here.

So you're saying that you're real upfront. Yeah. You're like, come September or whatever, here's what's going to happen, but I'm going to really throw down hard on husbanding. Yeah. Yeah, and say, honey, I'm going to do anything you want to do the rest of the year, but please let me have my time in September or whatever month you're hunting.

Let me have my time then. We'll be an example. Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, you don't even have to request like an extra couple of days. You just call and check it in and saying, Hey, I'm going to be home Friday instead of Wednesday. Right. What's the thing you did, um, to earn hunting time?

Uh, what's the thing you did that was, you feel was most out of character for you? Oh, um, uh, I don't know. Go to the big city, you know, go, go take a trip to Seattle, Washington or something and, and hang out and walk and walk up and down the, the wharf there and check things out. That's not my cup of tea at all. But you're cool about it. Yeah. You're like, man, this is the best time I've ever had. I might complain a little bit. If you've ever driven in Seattle, well, you know, it's horrible.

But, yeah, I pay those dues because I want to make sure that – and the great thing about my wife is she, she understands men need their time. Men need their time to kind of get away from things, the pressures of life and kind of decompress, find themselves a little bit in the woods. And then, cause she knows when I come back, I'm better. I'm usually better. I, you know, I'm a better person.

I, I've kind of left some things behind. Yeah. I feel like, okay, now i can focus on other things other than just got all this stuff about hunting in my head i think that it's helpful there's a game you play like if you got the break to your spouse that you're going uh to do something that's going to leave them you know that's going to leave them in a troubled spot yeah meaning like for us in my marriage it's not about that you're gone it's going to leave them in a troubled spot. Yeah. Meaning like for us in my marriage, it's not about that. You're gone.

It's not that you're absent and I miss you. It's that there's a lot that has to happen because we're raising young kids. Right. So, you know, I, if I, if I didn't have to worry about that, it wouldn't really matter at all. Right. Like we were kind of, you know, we have our lives and we're cool with each other.

And, you know, it's like, I, if, if I don't see my wife for a while, it's right. I don't need to like worry what she's up to. Right. There's a lot of trust and faith, but to leave, you're sort of saying like, I'm taking off. We won't see each other. That's cool. But I realized that while I'm gone, you're dealing with a lot, you know? Yeah.

A lot of responsibility. Yeah. It's like a lot you know yeah a lot of responsibility yeah it's like a lot taking care of little kids is hard yep but uh so you wind up battling in your head between this thing of downplaying how long you'll be gone or over playing how long you'll be gone so you're sort of like you want to leave and everything's cool right right it's like oh yeah probably just two three days because then they're like oh that's not so bad right if and then you feel that then if you want to stay longer you're like yeah i wish i would have been more truthful but had i been more truthful then i might not have left with the good blessing right it's like a you're gambling you're gambling your way because you could come and be like, I'm gone 10 days.

And then they're annoyed and you come back earlier and it's cool, but you're upping the chance that you're going to leave and they're already annoyed. Yeah. That's kind of a tough one. A lot of times, like when the kids were little, we would take the whole fam dam lay to elk camp and mama and the kids would hang out camp and get in the dirt and dig and build spears and do whatever else kids do

it at a little kid age. And I'd go hunting and I'd come back. Sometimes. You head out in the morning, come back in the afternoon. Yeah, sometimes come back around lunch and go, then go back for an evening hunt or sometimes it'd be gone all day, depending on where the,

the spot I was going to hunt. Um hunt but that made a big difference too because that that engages them that gives them something fun to do the kids love being being there they understand what dad's doing um and then um as the teenagers got as they got teenagers you know then they have other responsibilities you know they're playing sports and stuff like that. And it's tough for them to get away to go hunting with dad. Um, so. Yeah. That's why I don't think that's a good idea.

Yeah. I always said we should have had our kids be bookworms, you know, and just like. Hell yeah, man. Heck with sports, you know, dirt bikes and, and four wheelers and, and. Stuff with no schedules. Hunting and just where you can just go and enjoy the outdoors.

That's the way to do it. That's definitely the way to do it. Hit them with another one, Yanni. They're supposed to have a far off bugle comp. Someone actually asked for this. Yeah. They wanted Giannis, Dirk, and Jason to do a no call whistling only, who can do the best way far off elk.

Oh, I got this. Oh, you do this too? Oh yeah. Okay. Well, I got this. Oh, you do this too? Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, when I tell a story, you know. Okay. I've only happened, I've told this story once before. It's only worked once for me, but we were walking along an irrigation.

Oh, I didn't know you actually did this as a hunting trip. Walking along as an irrigation ditch. Oh, he told me this. Along an irrigation ditch, and George Brown, I believe his name was, he's like, you ever heard of guys whistling to bugle bulls? He's like, no, never have. He's like, you ever heard of guys whistling to bugle at bulls? He's like, no, never have. He's like, give it a shot, you know? So I was just.

We kind of stood there. And all of a sudden, I just hear hooves coming. And we kind of looked around the corner. And coming up the hill, I mean, there's calves and cows. And I could see a brand Shantler bull coming. And they literally ran by us and just went on up the timber. And we had a, and it was late in the morning. So we were like, all right, we'll come back.

And we got, we know where there's elk for the evening hunt. But I don't think I've ever gotten a response since. And it was just coincidence. I've never got a response. Okay, hit one. That's a whole different approach. Do it again. Let's get my whistle.

Yeah, my whistle ain't working. That doesn't have that lonesome distant sound. It's got the reverb, though. Yeah. Jay Phelps. Wow, that was pretty. I still think Yanni's the champ, man. Gal? Wow, that was pretty. That's straight up a Marty Stafford. I still think Yanni's the champ, man.

Gal? It was really windy. That sounded like a windstorm. Way off in a windstorm. I can't whistle. Apparently, I can't either. That's going some kind of weird bird seth

i wish i could whistle man i can't whistle i had a wooden whistle but it wouldn't whistle that was the thing my dad used to say all right one last fun one if you could only hunt with one, September 15th, would you bring your binos or bring your calls? Calls. Calls. Where's that question? Steve?

Binos or calls? Did you say a date? Yeah, September 15th. He doesn't say a date. Why are you corrupting the person's question? Is it crowdsourced or not? It is. I'm just making it better.

Okay. I'm hunting on September 15th and I can have my binals or my calls. Yeah. I'd have my calls because I'm presumably bow hunting. Yep. Yeah.

And I'd be fine. Oh, yeah. I can locate elk just fine with my eyeballs. And if it was November 1st, everybody would choose binoculars. Yes. November 1st? everybody would choose binoculars. Yes. November 1st? I'm switching.

So there is a time of year when you go out with your binos and not your calls. Yeah. That's a true call salesman. You could be doing some reverse psychology right now. Like that and earlier saying that in August, late August, you might not use a call at all. Because then people are going to be like, I trust this person. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm going to buy his calls because he's not slimy.

And yet, he might actually wind up selling more calls. We should back that up. He's a pretty trustworthy fellow. Oh, I think it's obvious. He wouldn't be in here hanging out if he was slimy. I think from this conversation, you just call Vortex, you get a collab going, and you integrate a call into the binos.

A bugle tube bino where you blow into the eyepiece and it... And it doesn't fog up. Okay, what else we got, Yanni? Anything? I'm out of questions. Anybody else? Seth? Cal? You got anything you want to add or ask? No.

No? No, I mean, I like all add or ask? No. No. No, I mean, I like all this stuff. Two questions for you. Someone wants to know if you have any plans for a fawn in distress call for blacktails. We've got one. Cal, last time we talked about this on the podcast, I think I sold all of them we had. No, we've got a fawn in distress call already. I go out and play with the does and fawns in my yard right now.

And it's the coolest thing ever. I have a bit of a hoarding problem with these calls because I do find I blow them out. They're awesome though. They're the best. I love them. And we can, I mean, that's the one thing to get that fawn distress just perfect.

It's a pretty light read, but we can, we also offer replacement reads too. So in a tool just to pop fall in the stretch is perfect. It's a pretty light read, but we can, we also offer a placement reads too. So in a tool just to pop them in and out. Yeah. When are you using those Cal? Like in what hunting situation? I started messing around with them a lot, um,

with, uh, mule deer and like during rifle season and I had started, and then like there, there is no better tool for black bear hunting. I absolutely love them for black bear because it solves some issues. I find that immature bears, very similar to like when you're calling elk, one of the scenarios that you guys described, but when you're kind of ringing a dinner bell with highly competitive predators, only the big ones are going to come into that fawn call. Yeah.

And typically, from what I've seen, totally anecdotal, typically from what I've seen, they're boars. One time I had a fawn distress call, and I was in southeast Alaska, and I was creeping up on a bear, and I got where he was down in a channel. It's a big grass flat, like an estuary, and he's down in a channel, and I couldn creeping up on a bear and I got where he was down in a channel. It's a big grass flat, like an estuary. And he's down in a channel and I couldn't see him. And I was like, oh, I'll blow the call and he'll obviously come running up out of there.

And I started blowing the call and out of the woods across the grass flat, out of the woods comes a black-tailed doe. Pissed. Runs right through where I thought the bear was. Crosses the channel. Pops up on my side right in my face. Stomps

all around. Gets all mad. Goes back the way she came from. And I'm like, oh, so something obviously happened. The bear's gone or whatever. She wouldn't have come through there. And then I walk over and look down, and that bear is still sitting there eating grass. So not only was he not interested in the call,

he was not interested in the pissed-off doe that basically ran him over and never broke stride. Yeah. It's so hard to tell. And then the thing that makes this thing so funny is the same trip we had when trying to climb in the boat with us. Where we pulled up

and I just like beached the boat, didn't even get out of the boat and blew a call. And you can't shoot from a boat there. Blew a call. And I'm up in the front of the boat, my buddy's in the back, so it's real deep, you know?

And I start, we were like watching this bear and we kind of lost track of him. So he nose the boat up into the gravel and I'm just standing on the front seat and I were like watching this bear we kind of lost track him so he knows the boat up into the gravel and i'm just standing on the front seat and i start calling and this bear is like gonna get in like he looked like he was gonna get in the boat and i'm telling my buddy get out of the boat and shoot but it's real deep where we pulled up i remember like who cared he didn't want to jump out because he got so wet if he jumped out of the boat

but it's like the different moods they're in and you know what i mean like what they got going on it's so funny like the different attitudes because that fun and distress call too like i've hit it at times and seen every form of life run out of the canyon as fast as Yeah. They're killing stuff in here. Exactly. Everybody out. It's like that scene in, what was that, Ballad of Buster Scruggs? The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Yeah, when the miner,

when Tom Waits rolls into the base and all the critters peace out. Yeah, that's great. All right, any closers? What's new? Anything on the horizon? No, we're going to work on the deer call line, predator call line. We got a few new things on the out call line, but yeah, just, just going down that road,

trying to kind of fill in the rest. You know, we've been, been pretty busy on the turkey and the out call side, and then just trying to kind of wrap up the whole line from start to finish. So we're just going to put some pressure on, test a bunch of new products this fall, and then hopefully have some releases next year. You know what calls you think you ought, another call I think you ought to do? I think you should devote some time to making

blue grouse calls. How about seeking? No, no, no, no, not, not a rough grouse drumming, but blue grouse for spring blue grouse hunting in Alaska. And you can make the female call. This is a whole thing. Listen, this is like what I'm telling you right now. Dirk, write this down.

Write that down in your notebook. What I'm telling you right now would be like, let's imagine that it's 1978. And I said, you know what someone ought to do is find a way to make a elk bugle noise i'm giving you that right now all right all right we're gonna i'm giving you that right now i'm telling you something that's gonna like put it in your time capsule we'll open it in 30 no 40 years you'll be like man i can't believe i didn't do it because it turned into this huge thing and i had it laying right i had it laid

right in my lap don't ignore that Sika deer market in Maryland either. Yeah, those 10,000 guys. That might be something because those guys all run around with Europe. Oh, shit. No, I'm just kidding. Euro calls. They run around with European-made calls. Yeah.

Can't have that. God bless America. Yeah. Don Rumsfeld's the old Europe. I can do a Sika stag call. We've been toying around a little. Oh, let's hear it. So you guys are all over this.

No. That. Look that up. YouTube. Sounds just like it. No, because we're pros, man. We've heard him. You've heard him.

Oh, many, many, many times. And one thing he screwed up. thing doesn't sound like that no way too elaborate it in maryland yeah they grow three packs not nearly that long so i got a guy hunting in new zealand we know oh that might be a holding ball and his sounds just like that no they're like three little shorts ohilet water spins the opposite way down there too. Well, that's true. All right. So you're probably not going to get into the blue grouse, not the blue grass, the blue grouse market. Is ducks, like you're interested in ducks?

We have duck calls. I'm not a diehard duck guy. So I reached out to some guys in Oregon, Eric Strand. So Eric Strand is kind of in charge of our duck calls. I'm not a diehard duck guy. Um, so I reached out to some guys in Oregon, uh, Eric Strand. So Eric Strand's kind of in charge of our duck call, um, waterfowl goose call line. So I'm, I've kind of. Do you like to stay in your lane? Yeah. I don't want to try to pretend like I know what I'm doing on that side. Um, I'll go shoot them if they call them in for me, but I don't do that. Um, but we are, we're filling in that side. So cool. Real cool. So you need to be, you want to be like a full one-stop shop.

Yeah. I just want to fill all the lines in and get the right people. Like I said, I'm a Turkey elk, a little bit of predator guy. You know, I can, I'm comfortable in that sector, but, um, in order to bring some of these other things in, I'm just going to go

find the best people that I can. So he's really good, really accomplished waterfowl caller and, and knows how to build them and tunes them. He tunes all of our waterfowl caller and knows how to build them and tunes them. He tunes all of our waterfowl calls right now. Gotcha. Dirk, got any concluders? You know what a concluder is?

Final thoughts? Oh, that's exactly right. I think people give up on trying to learn how to call elk too quick. They might, their buddy says, hey, go get X call and try it. It works awesome. And they try it and they suck. They can't do it. So they're like, nah, it ain't for me.

You hear this a lot. You go to trade shows like, nah, I can't do these calls. And you hand one to a guy and kind of coach them a little bit. And pretty soon they're making noises. I'm like, wow, I think I might be able to do this after all. So people just give up pretty quick on calling elk and i mean the best part about calling elk is it's super fun i mean you know it's an it's a it's a means to an end i mean you're trying to take a take a beautiful elk home with you and have some delicious food but um it sure is fun too it's it's like the the best you can have. There might not be any more fun to be had in the hunting universe.

No. Absolutely. You kind of stole my conclusion. I'm going to keep it. I'm going to reuse it. Well, how long you been practicing, Dirk? I've been doing this 30 years. I've been calling elk for 30 years.

And when did you stop improving? I get better every year. I pick up little things that like, wow, that elk did this. And like, I try to do it, you know, I'm big on, you know, trying to mimic the elk a bit because I want to sound like an elk. I don't want to just sound like me. So I'll try to pick up little things from elk all the time. Um, I feel like we kind of make the same old rookie mistakes every year. It's like everybody, but you learn a lot every year. So, yeah, but I think, you know, people just give up on it too quick. Like, you know, put some effort into of what to do with that call when you get it in your mouth. And you start in January. By September, you're going to be able to make some pretty darn good elk noises, especially with the world we live in. I mean, we have YouTube and the internet, and there's all this information on how to use calls.

We didn't have that when I was a kid. I mean, I had Larry D. Jones videos to watch and try my best to make an elk noise. When I first started elk mean, I had Larry D. Jones videos to watch and try my best to make an elk noise. When I first started elk hunting, I hadn't even heard a real elk bugle before September 1st, you know, 1989. And that was the first time I heard an elk bugle. And I'm like, okay, I got to figure that. I sound different, but I'm going to try to figure it out. And by the end of that season, I sounded pretty good, you know, all things considered. I caught on pretty good, but people just need to, to, to practice, not give up and have faith in their calls.

What do you got, Seth? Is it about problem beavers? Yeah, exactly. Send us your problem beaver spots. Send us an email. Yeah. We'll take care of you. Gate closeness, politeness.

We'll bring you some cooked beaver meat. No road messing. No road messing. Yep. We're the real deal. No. We'll take care of you. Gate closeness, politeness. We'll bring you some cooked beaver meat. No road messing. No road messing. Yep. We're the real deal. Yep. Fostering. We'll bring little kids out, cute little kids out.

Yep. Introducing kids to the wild. You guys got to come up with a name for your operation. Oh, man, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, I haven't thought of that either. Flip-flop flasher. Yep. Do you have any other concluders, Seth?

I'm pretty stoked for elk season now after all that. This got you fired up. Oh, yeah. You got an elk on your hat. Yeah, I do. Yeah, hearing that first bugle from Jason. Gives you tingles. Yeah.

What you got, Cal? That's it. You fired up. Like, I like the elk noises. Make me start thinking about what the hell am I doing in this office? Need to start getting ready.

Yeah, honey. I would recommend that all the people that are all fired up right now and they're going to Phelps' website to buy themselves a gray and a black amp,

they should also get one of phelps's external reed single reed cow calls you guys call it the uh easy estrus the easy estrus can you get the different widths or is that uh you got a call that's kind of a special order but we're pretty we've got great customer service here at phelps game just let us know i mean put it in the comments we do make a bunch of stuff but i just didn't want to skew ourselves if you want something different want a deeper sounding cow call let us know and we'll make it happen yeah but that's it to me that's a pretty easy call too i think for beginners and some people that if you're just really struggling with the gag thing and you're just you know

diaphragms aren't going for you man those external reads i don't leave home without it yeah they're super effective my concluders is a note on calling in general where it's easy to view like when you start out hunting or you start out trying to hunt something new it's easy to view it as it's all about the end you know um it's just like what i'll do whatever i need to do to try to get one and you think about when we first started hunting turkeys you know we were aware that calling turkeys was a thing but we just bushwhack them we get we find one goblin we glass one up and belly crawl in on them wait for them to make a mistake and um and then later when you realize like like to call something uh man it's just different it's so much more fun and when you learn how to do it's effective and it's like there's certain

scenarios you know if you lay your decoys out and you're calling ducks and you can you keep getting like birds coming in with cupped wings and then birds coming with cupped wings and you wind up at the end of the day whatever you got cupped wings and you wind up at the end of the day whatever you got four of them and you could have got four jump shooting it's just different it's so much more fulfilling it's like you're just seeing it's like you're seeing something happen and in the end oftentimes these things wind up helping you have more end result too even though it takes longer to get there i'm very happy that, uh, to have, um, very happy to have like figured that out with turkeys, figure that out with ducks. We used to belly crawl ducks when we were kids, we'd belly

crawl ducks and jump shoot ducks. But then later like taking the time to learn how to call them in my God, just so much more, it's so much more rewarding. And why, and as far as exhilaration um in the hunting world even beyond the hunting world i to have a you know some six seven hundred pound bull screaming in your face it is just like it is unnerving in the best possible way and you fooled that wild animal to come into your calls. That's, that's the best. If I don't take him home with me, that's okay. But I fooled that sucker into coming in and I saw him.

It's almost like counting coup on him, you know, it's almost, it's almost like that, you know. It tests your mettle, man. Like, I don't care. You might think you have nerves of steel, you know, but, uh, when that's going on, it is so hard to keep your head together i'm sure it gets less but it's just like you're just like wow this thing is it's just like this

deafening sound from this huge slobbering you know i mean you know snapping trees in half with his antlers and it's just it's really's just, it's really something to see. It's really something to see. Anything else? Oh, plug the newsletter, Yanni. Last but not least, you should go to the Meteor website and sign up for the newsletter. Get it once a week. Keep up on everything we got going on here at MeatEater. Yeah, go to www.themeateater.com.

Go on and give us a five-star review. Click the rightmost star. If you're listening there through iTunes or Apple. And you can find us on social. I like Instagram a whole bunch, at Steven Rinella. The Eagle is at Janice Poudalas. Janice underscore Poudalas.

That's right. Janice Cal is at Ocal406, right? Yep. O-L-C-A-L-406. Seth? At Signs underscore West. That's tricky. I keep thinking he's a sign builder.

No. No, he's talking about Beaver Sign. Yep. Signs underscore West. Always looking for sign. Oh, I like that. I like that. You guys are on the Instagram? Yeah, we're pretty active.

Lots of inspiring bull out photos. The battle between our calls is alive and well. We're at Phelps Game Calls. Phelps Game Calls. I'm at The Bugler. One word. You got in early.

The Bugler. one word. Ooh. You got in early. Yeah. The Bugler. The Bugler. All right, again, most importantly, newsletter, www.themeateater.com. And again, Phelps Game calls good dudes. They bugle too much, but they're good dudes. But they're good dudes. Thanks for having us. It's awesome. OnXH is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians.

The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX

if you visit onxmaps.com meet