The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 194: Summon the Squall

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

Steven Rinella talks with Adam Weatherby, Landon Peterson, Stewart Peterson, Seth Morris, and Janis Putelis. Topics discussed: A shot so bad it didn’t even spook the buck; Wyoming’s Region G; magic mountains and crooked skies; animosity toward your mentor; horses vs. mules as hunting equipment; riding horses on steep-assed cliffs; is it unsportsmanlike to shoot bedded bucks?; Janis shooting a buck in self defense; wanting to become a cowboy; adopting butt pad technology; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google Play Store. Know where you stand with OnX. Okay, we'll get to introductions in a minute, but I want to ask you guys one thing first, because this is the thing I always try to explain to people. What are the things as outfitters, as guides, and you guide mountain hunts what things prevent people from uh realizing their dreams i'm talking about clients what are the things that prevent clients from realizing their dreams when they go on a guided mountain hunt is it grr er like grr is it, like G-R-R-R?

Is it that their boots don't fit right? You know, I think a lot of it, we've taken a lot of people who really don't know how to hunt. I'll say, well, let's go over here, and I can hear them. They're talking loud. They're heavy with their feet on the ground. They don't sometimes realize or sense the fact that that mere thudding through the timber is something that animals pick up on very quickly. And in fact, I've done some experimenting when I, been trying to make a stick or a snake, I've taken sticks and,

uh, with my walking, I'll change up my rhythm of my walk so that I'm not known as a man walk through the timber. And I think it's, it's been advantageous, but those are things that I've observed from people that they don't know how to hunt an animal, how to sneak on an animal, and they just take for granted that maybe the outfitter is going to just magically be able to beam

one over on the hill and they're going to be able to shoot it. And so there is, it's, it's, I think it's a learned, you know, I've had to tell hunters, you guys have got to step more quiet, watch what you're stepping on. Um, because if they, if they're merely there just to let you be their eyes, I've had to tell hunters, you guys have got to step more quiet. Watch what you're stepping on. Because if they're merely there just to let you be their eyes, the whole experience is really not a realized full hunting experience. I would have guessed. Okay, go ahead though, Landon.

Then we're going to do our intros. I just want to lead in with a sizzle. Well, I was going to say from uh, from my, my standpoint, one of the biggest challenges is a physical capacity of the hunter. Um, obviously at the elevation that we hunt at, um, guys coming from 2000 foot elevation, if they're in poor shape, poor condition, they struggle. Obviously we hunt with horses, but to get them from the horse to where we need to get the shot made, sometimes that window closes before they can get in position. They're huffing and puffing and out of breath because the hike, you know, that 50 yards away from the horse just blew their doors off and they struggle to get their gun steady enough to be able to make a good shot.

Physical fitness. Physical fitness, very important. Is shooting ability up high on the list? Most definitely. Yeah. And knowing where your gun shoots and knowing, obviously, the range that we shoot. We don't like anything much over 450, but we want guys to feel comfortable with those longer ranges. Um, and if they're coming from, you know, the Eastern side of the state, sometimes those shots that they take aren't necessarily, they're not used to that

long range shot. And so spending time behind the scope, learning the timing of the crosshairs and getting that down is a key part to being able to make a good shot. My last comment before we do do our intros is I'm speaking to Landon and Stuart. My favorite quote from the week was when Stuart was telling a story about the second nicest bar key he'd ever laid eyes on. And the client took a shot. And as he expressed it, he said, and he didn't even spook it. All right. Hold on.

I'd like to find out, since you got to ask where shooting ability falls in in the ranking, I'd like to know where a positive mental attitude falls in in the ranking to help someone's success. Is that high and very important? Well, there's no doubt it's important because I think, and I've hunted in a few other areas. And, uh, one of the things is, can be very discouraging to people. They're thinking we're spotting 400 yards away across the canyon or 500. I don't know if I've got that kind of ability.

And so there's, there is a mindset that, because a lot of our clients have been like Landon alluded to that, uh, they're shooting maybe 100 yards. Because that's what their terrain and, you know, the shrubbery and trees allow. Sure. Anything more than that, then that they can see an animal from such a distance and trying to close that gap mentally to think, you know, there's a chance. And that's quite honestly, I believe that's where some of the experience, you know, Landon's, I've been dragging him up there since he was a four-year-old boy. I've been up there a little over 30 years now, and it makes a difference when you know the terrain, when you watch the behavior of animals, when they're under pressure, where they go, what they do.

Um, that's what, that can, that can help if, if they have confidence in an outfitter from that perspective as well. Right. But the positive attitude, I mean, I've had guys that, uh, when they got out there, they, they just thought this is way too tough. It's way too physical. You know, I've got the horse to deal with. I've, you know, there's too much, uh, how, how long does it take for that to creep in on someone? I think it depends on a lot of the circumstances they come in contact with, you know, if, if they have a bad experience right at the front of the hunt, you know, where a horse spooks them or has a tendency

to intimidate them because of a situation. I think we've seen guys, it impacts them to the point that they're nervous to get on the horse. And there's been some guys that just have thrown the towel in and said, Hey, we're done. We're not hunting anymore. You know, I've got too much to lose or whatever. Yeah. And so I think there's just a lot of things that can happen depending on how strong they are when they come mentally,

where their confidence level is and their ability physically. And then, you know, that first day, what they see, the excitement that's generated from the animals. There's a combination of things i think that play into that you know now let's do intros okay go ahead well um i'm landon peterson i've been uh like my dad said i've been with them uh going ever since i was a four-year-old boy um i loved hunting from a just beginning and i always would get left at home, and I hated that. So when I had the opportunity at the age of 12 to go up. You mean you'd be able to go up there when there weren't clients on your camp?

So we went up in the summertime, and that's when we would do the fishing and stuff. But I wasn't allowed, you know, I didn't get to go up when we were doing the hunting because I was too small, and I didn't have the physical capacity to keep up. And so I look forward to that when I got to do that at the age of 12. So I've been up in the hills every year since I was 12 years old hunting up in that area. You were born in Coltville, Wyoming? I was born actually in Price, Utah and moved here when I was a year old. Oh, okay.

So, yep. And then tell everyone the name of your guys' business. Crooked Sky Outfitters is the name of our business. And I bought in with my dad as an actual partner, bought an uncle out who had been a partner with my dad. I bought him out six years ago. And that was, I just, was my dream to have an opportunity to step into that role. My uncle was getting to a point physically where he wasn't able to keep up. And so then I was able to step in, buy him out, and become an equal partner with my dad in the business.

Adam Weatherby. Yeah. It's your second time on the show. Yeah, kind of old news around here, I guess, right? Yeah, it was on back in the spring, I think, with Brenda, my wife. But I'm Adam Weatherby. It should be your job to tell everybody what we've just been up to. In the mountains?

Yeah, you can do it or Yanni can do it. I don't really do it. I'll tell people what's going on. I got a toothache. Yeah, so anyways, Adam Weatherby uh weatherby uh 74 year old firearms business i get to run it took it over from a dad who took it over from my grandpa and that's what we do but i mean what we've been up to like what we've been up to you bet you so well i got a call well yannis we started talking back earlier this year, and I knew that Giannis and Steve had a bunch of points

for mule deer in Wyoming. And I'd moved to Wyoming, moved my business there. Let me back you up for a second, just to make sure people are tracking. Okay. Meaning we had applied unsuccessfully for Wyoming. Eight years. Yeah, mule deer licenses.

Well, it's not quite true. I'm just trying to give it a, I'm trying. Okay, go ahead, Giannis. Putting in for, putting it for points. There's some regions in Wyoming, it's non-resident. No, break it down, break it down. That some regions in Wyoming that are harder to draw than others and get a tag in. And Steve and Giannis here wanted to go shoot a nice buck.

And so they put in for several years. And if you put in unsuccessfully, you can obtain a point. Or else you can just buy a point. Correct. I think a lot of those years we probably just bought the point. How much is the point? $50? No, that's L.

Which one? $40 for the mule deer, $30 for an antelope, $50 for a... So you'd put in over $ bucks over a period of eight years. That's correct. Yeah, wow. And then you bought the tag. That really puts it into perspective. Which probably cost you another few hundred bucks to actually then...

I want to say the tags were around... A few hundred bucks, right? Six? No, that's an elk tag. Yeah, that's about what a non-resident elk tag is. But what about a mule deer? Six and a half. Non-resident mule deer. Well, that's about what a non-resident elk tag is. But what about a mule deer? Six and a half. Non-resident mule deer.

Well, that... It's some hundreds. I think it was 450, 475. I can't remember now what the non-resident on the deer is. So there we were. So there you were. So you guys, Giannis and Steve here, had then put together this hunt that really started a couple years back, talking to a family member of these guys.

That's right. About doing this kind of dream southwestern Wyoming high country mule deer hunt. Yeah, you guys had, well, you know what? Allow Stuart to introduce himself. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Real quick. Okay. And I'm Stuart Peterson.

I have been in this outfitting business initially with my uncle. Started back in the mid to late 80s. So right at about the 30-year mark, I've been marching around up there. I was raised in Cokeville as well. Raised on a ranch, a cattle ranch here. And then I went to school for a bit and decided that wasn't really quite what I was interested in, but I wanted to come home and ranch.

And dad and mom said, no, we think you need to get an idea of what you want to do better ranching. So. They discouraged you from becoming a cattle rancher. They discouraged me from kind of like, because things were tough. You know, it was always tough. I grew up with six, there were six siblings in the family.

And we live on a little house south of town, south of Cokeville, about seven miles. And we kind of nicknamed that place little house on the prairie and that's where we grew up uh with very little we there were six kids uh in a two-bedroom home um so very tight quarters growing up and we just didn't seem like there was that much money i think that's what boiled down to for mom and dad they just said, you've got to have a better life than that. It was a struggle. It was a wrestle. And so that's what we grew up with.

And I took a lot of shop classes in high school, woodworking, that type of stuff. And so I was pretty intrigued with that. So I've been doing custom home, rustic furniture, cabinetry for a number of years now. And that's, what's been my main livelihood. The outfitting has been my love. That's been what I've wanted to do. And, and, and, you know, of course in Wyoming, the draw has always made it a difficult challenge for us.

We can book hunters and we would book year after year, the same hunters, if they could get tags year after year. And so it's, it's, uh, it's, you know, really been a difficult, uh, path to try to hang on and make sure that we're, we're, uh, able to feed a string of horses through the winter. And, and, uh, we do do the summer pack trips and that helps, uh, to, to cover some of those costs. But the reality of it is, is that the, the outfitting business is something that I've enjoyed doing, um, ever since I got into it, but it was something that I inspired, had aspired to do because my dad was a guide and

I couldn't wait till when I was, uh, back in our day, we had to be 14 to go hunt. And I, I begged dad to go up before that. He said, no, you can't, uh, until you're 14. So when I was 14, it was, it was like having Christmas hit the week that we could go. And it was mostly elk hunting at that time, because the school let us out for a couple of days on a weekend. So we could go up and, and, you know, four days we could be up in camp and I just ate that up, you know, and I,

and of course I've always loved horses and it just really seemed to meet my need to be up in the mountains on a good horse. At the risk of getting ahead of ourselves, uh, and Adam, we're going to come back to the whole, what we're doing. But if you were discouraged by your parents from being a rancher, how did it feel when your son, who's sitting here, Landon,

got into ranching? Well, I've had the frank conversation about it's a good life, but it's a tough life. The markets are up there. You never know sometimes what your crops will do to you, how the calves are going to come in and weigh out so that you've got what the price will be for those calves. So it's one of those, it's just about as good as maybe going to las vegas and and uh playing the chips because there's so he could be doing just as good he might could just i mean but but lannon's going about it in a way that uh you know perhaps being a little smaller unit he can do my dad was in the corporation with with two other brothers and And so they grew, you know, and they built quite a cow herd.

And that was just how they did things. But there was never much that came back to it. Now they've since been able to move some of the land that they'd acquired and had paid off. And it's made their lives comfortable. But for heaven's sakes, my folks are 82. So it came late in life for them to really enjoy some of the benefits that could have been earlier. And I think that's really why they steered me away.

And I wouldn't say that they, I think they're proud of what Landon's doing, as I am, but I think they've probably, you know, crossed their fingers that markets will stay good and that the, you know, hay prices won't be so costly. So all of that comes into play, but I've been excited for him to be able to have mostly that he's home. Back home, we have their cute little family there on a regular basis in our home, and we just enjoy the family scene.

So for us, maybe as much as anything, I've been glad that that was one way to get him back home. Because there's not a lot of opportunities. But his entrepreneurial spirit has compelled him to be able to move in the direction of trying to build a cow herd. And seems to be finding some success at some of the things he's been consistently researching. And so he's done a lot of homework. And I think it's paying off. And we're excited.

His mother and I are very excited to have him in the neighborhood again. Okay, Adam, get back to it now. So there we were. Me and Yanni waited eight years right patiently and we finally drew finally drew a unit a region in southwestern wyoming yep known for having mature really nice bucks so i'd movedby, our gun business from California to Wyoming. And I'd been here a little over 12 months, which means that I can gain residency in Wyoming. So

then I'm different than you guys. So at that point, I'm special. You just go wherever you want, whenever you want. Yeah. So I could go in for like 40 bucks or whatever it is and just say i want to go hunt with yannis and steve and then just go do it that day and so uh that was kind of how this thing how i hopped on board here was really jumping in with you guys is something that's really been a dream of yours uh and i'm passionate about, you know, the high country, mule deer, backcountry, horses, everything you guys were doing. And so at the slightest little conversation, I jumped in to team up with you guys and then Crooked Sky to head in for a week-long pack trip to some pretty high elevation area with high concentration of elk and mule deer, but with the sole specific purpose of rifle hunting mule deer. And that's what we did.

It was a great job. Yeah. That was good. Succinct work. I've learned from Steve over the years. Yanni, talk about the story about how he met up with Crooked Sky. About the relative of these guys. Perry.

What's his last name? Dayton. He wrote a letter to make you guys blush. I wish I had it. I wonder if I could pull it up real quick. We get a lot of letters, but it caught our attention. Yeah, it did. Perry emailed me today to see how the hook was.

Yeah, he just... We must have been talking about it on the podcast our aspiration to draw region g tags yeah yeah and then and then he emailed and said if you do just so happens that my family has been running an outfit and business up there for how many years well my uncle had started back in the real early 60s so i was you, from about 60 on that he, uh, was outfitting. So you guys are coming up on 60 years. With, yeah. Yeah.

I haven't been on this planet. Well, I haven't just about on this planet that long. So, uh, but that's kind of when he started, but he was, it used to be SR Dayton. Sharon Reed Dayton was his name. They werefitters. When he brought me in, obviously I was looking for an opportunity to put my spin on it, and I said, maybe we can think up a name when we became partners, and it went to Magic Mountain Outfitters. And then when Lana came in, he says, Dad, I think it'd be good

if we could move in a direction of something where he's being involved. And that's when Crooked Sky Outfitters evolved. What was wrong with Magic Mountain? Sounds a little spacey. It's a theme park in California. In many ways, when you ride a horse up there in the mountains, it's like a theme park ride because it can get pretty wild. It's magical it there's there's something magic about the hills and and uh and continues to be but uh perhaps with landon's uh you know entrance into it that kind of gave an op gave way for an opportunity to maybe elevate to something that was a little more

updated to to what people might see and envision in a... So where did Crooked Sky come about? How did that come about? That's a good question. Well, there's kind of a combination of things there. One is the terrain that we hunt is very jagged. As you stand in the bottom, there's big elevation, you know, climbs that you look up, you know, to the horizon. You see the jaggedness

of the mountains. But the other part of it that we felt like would be beneficial was because of my dad's experience, you know, former in his life, where he was able to play some roles in some different movies, one of those being Against the Crooked Sky. And so that was part of where the name came from as well, that we thought maybe it would give us the ability for people to make that connection and want to come and hunt with a guy that, you know, that maybe they had grown up watching as a young man. And so that was kind of, there was a couple different reasons

that we decided to go that direction. I like the name, though. Stuart, you didn't include that in your autobiography. He doesn't like talking about that. He doesn't like talking about that. I know that. We had to pry it out of him. You know, when we were talking about name change, we listed,

we had probably, oh, 25, 30 names of just, you know, off the brainstorming, uh, time that we did that we wrote down and we just let it sit and stew for a bit. And, and then we actually had family kind of, uh, say weigh in on it to Atlanta's got, uh, five other siblings and, and we kind of talked about let them give some uh input and what it boiled down to is we just thought well maybe this is it's the time is is is okay I'm I'm far enough past the the window when my age to to have uh maybe lost some of the recognition.

But yet I was, and I guess I was, I've always been a little bit apprehensive about using the film status as a way to promote my success. I wanted to try to do it in a way that I felt like I wasn't cheating anyway because people, I wanted people to do it in a way that I felt like I wasn't cheating anyway, because people, I wanted people to do it when they,

when they met me personally, that they would feel good about and not feel like, well, you know, this is a kind of a make-believe character, you know, that he was in these other films. And is that how he is today or what? So I,

I guess I've always been a little apprehensive about it because I saw how people would treat me differently if they knew who I was. And I always had a little bit of a guard up with protecting myself that way saying, do they like me because of that or because of who I am? And that was probably one of the reasons that I've drug my feet and drug my feet about ever using the film status. Well, I think also you're kind of, you're like an inherently modest person and you're not boisterous. So it probably makes it feel, it's probably awkward.

It is. A lot of people would never let you forget that. Well, it's, you know i i'll never forget the the day somebody asked for my autograph and i thought you got to be kidding i mean i'm 13 and i thought what what's up what's a piece of paper and a name written scratched on there with my name on it what what's it really worth it didn't have any value or I couldn't see any, you know, I, in fact, I don't know that I've, to this day, I've ever asked for even the people that I worked with. I had them sign a book, but to go up and ask for any of them for their autograph, I just never did it. It just wasn't something that, and I'm sure you guys have had to do a few of those.

But for me, I was just, it was an awkward, I just felt as awkward as could be. So in, in, you know, in that history, early history as a young boy who wanted to be so normal in so many ways. And yet I, I was, I wanted to excel in sports and that's what I focused on in high school. And, and, uh, you know, but I, but I met the same resistance. I, it was almost like I was a wrestler in high school. And, uh, I, I remember a term tournament once, uh, we were at, uh, one of the other teams that was there had a guy that was in my weight sent a little one of his younger buddies and the lighter weights come over to let me know that i would be counting the lights pretty quick what if i was going to wrestle him and uh i thought to myself you got to be kidding me i mean

this guy didn't even know who i was but yet because i was a movie star you know he's gonna whoop you he was gonna whoop me it was going to be some feather in the cap. And it was the same way in football. Hold on, you have to tell us the resolution of that match. Well, we met in the championship, and I went out and made him count lights. So it was, you know, for me, it kind of fueled the fire. I was competitive by nature, and when I got told that that was, for me, it kind of fueled the fire. I was competitive by nature. And when I got told that that was going to happen, I thought, well, you dirty bugger, I'm going to show you something different.

So, you know, it was, and it was a relief because it was a tournament here in town. And so I thought, I can't let this happen in my hometown. So, you know, those are things that all evolved. The film business, I guess at this point I was ready to say, okay, for the sake of helping my son in this business, if he's going to be able to carry it on, we've got to build it. And the name is going to have to do it. But I also want to make sure and recognize that when we're involved in this thing, we have a responsibility to what happens in the outdoors up there.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for it. It's a very, very spiritual place for me to be pondering who I am. How do I treat people? Am I truly becoming a better person? And consequently, our goal is we hope that when we rub shoulders with good people up there, they improve us and we improve them. Yeah, you don't have any reason to be bashful about, I don't think that that's, you you know that you got tangled up and doing movies

when you were a kid um because in the mountains uh and out running your business you work incredibly hard and are very focused and extremely knowledgeable and very professional and it's not i wouldn't even get i wouldn't even worry about having people be like, oh, I didn't get what I thought I was going to get, and it's just some Hollywood. I mean, come on. That's just not, it's just not. It's an interesting talking point.

It is. And it happened to you when you were very young, and you deliberately walked away from it. I did. Which is interesting. I did. I mean, it happened to you when you were very young and you deliberately walked away from it. I did. Which is interesting. I did. It just wasn't in my genetic makeup to want to be acknowledged because of the film business.

Now, if I'd have been acknowledged, you know, in all of my accolades in sports, that would have been fine. And it did happen. And it was much more pleasurable. But for some reason reason i just was caught up in that uh the thought is i i don't want the the film business to define me as being impressive in somebody's eyes i wanted to do it on my own because i think that's what happens with a lot

of these guys in the film business is that all of the attention that they get makes them think that they have done it. They've arrived. And in many cases, their lives become destroyed because they cannot accept living. I don't know. It's hard for me to explain it, but what I see is I see it too often where these people who rise to the status of star symbol and almost to a worshipful symbol in many people's eyes and and then they can't measure up they they find themselves not measure up to and I think we see a lot of that to happen and and for some reason my my instincts were that I never wanted that to be the reason why I felt good about me. Yeah.

It just wasn't the case. Oh, you know what? Seth, introduce yourself. Seth Morris. You've been on a thousand times. Yep. A couple times. Seth is kind of replacing Yanni because Seth's going to be doing,

kind of like doing Yanni's job coming up here in South Dakota. That's right. Yeah, Yanni's going on a big Colorado adventure. Yeah, it'll be the first. Not the first. It'll be the second Meteor episode that I haven't produced since I started producing them. One was I was out for a knee surgery,

but this is the first time we're going to do it deliberately. That was a good trip too. Seth, you can be honest. Do you view Giannis more like a mentor or someone you need to knock down? Oh, no. No, mentor for sure. So you're not like I'm going to... gonna no i'm not trying to replace yanni your other knee you're not thinking that i'm still trying to learn from okay good yeah i'm

not ready to knock him down okay um at some point the pupil does have to walk away from the teacher there is a thing that someone explained to me that happens in a mentorship situation is uh i can't remember who there's some philosopher someone who discussed this that happens in a mentorship situation is uh i can't remember who there's some philosopher someone who discussed this that in a mentor relationship there's a part of the the mentee part of the mentee's development um i think it's a necessary part of the development is to develop an animosity toward the mentor hmm look I think that that has to happen for that person to mmm to move on yeah so Seth give me a heads up well that just makes me think now I'll be thinking all night

we're sharing this room over here I'll be thinking when is my mentor steve ranella when am i gonna gain that animosity you might already have because i just got that big old buck explain for folks what uh explain for folks like how your guiding business works i mean because there's a thousand ways people guide right you could lease a ranch and and you know you could own a ranch or lease a ranch and clients come out and they hunt the ranch you could you know whatever you got like guys that run bear baits and so a client comes and they they hire a guide and the guide sets them out to watch a bear bait just kind of talk like real general terms people who aren't familiar with western hunting or guided hunting sort of like what is the the

what is the package you provide or what is the experience you provide we're referred to as what is a full service guide guided hunt where in which we uh from the time they arrive with us we and get them into camp we are providing the services of their meals and, and, uh, their horses, their tack, uh, everything, but their personal gear and their license. And we take care of that every day during that hunt. And, uh, which means that the hunter, we try to, to make sure that their horses fit them, their saddles fit them, and that saddles are in place. We're aware of those kind of things because we've been

around the block a little bit now. We know that if saddles aren't tightened up, that's when inexperienced riders can get hurt because they're not aware of when the saddle starts to slip, what they need to be doing. And you're comfortable putting a totally inexperienced rider on a horse?

On the ones that we have. We've got some that we know they're just not ready for guys that don't have much horsemanship skill. We just, we have to, we have to know the horses, um, pretty intimately to the extent of knowing where there are, where they are, where they fit in the pecking order of our horses, uh, because that makes a difference. We, we need to know a little bit about the person. Well, a lot about the personality because quite honestly,

people and horses can have personalities that clash. And we see that on a regular basis. Seth horse, uh, would, uh, physically assault the horse in front of it. My horse was,

it was, it was an ass biter for sure. Well, and some of that's because she's a mare, and sometimes the mares have those little nitpicky issues that they like to get after another horse because they are a mare, and that doesn't say anything about womanhood. I'm just saying that if you talk to anybody that knows horses, a lot of your people like to use gildings because gildings are way more even keel.

Oh, is that right? A castrated male. Yeah. And your mares, especially if they're cycling, they can be kind of cantankerous. And they have a hard time dealing with other horses under those conditions. And some are just have that kind of a continued personality like that. And we don't know why, but they, and that's one

of the things you have to understand, you know, as you get to know horse flesh a little bit, is that they have a personality just as distinct as people do. They think, oh, a horse, four legs, they run beautifully. They, you know, they're athletic and this and that, but there's a lot of personality that, that you have to be aware of when you're watching a

horse, uh, in your string and how they perform around, uh, different people. We ask people, what's your experience? Now, if they're honest, uh, those that are honest, we can say, well, we've got one that's going to fit the bill. But if they tell us, well, I've ridden quite a few times, and then we put them on a horse that has a little more fire under their tail, then they get kind of intimidated or thinking,

I'm not as good as I thought I was. Did you realize that one of our camera guys, Mike, I feel like he hadn't. He hadn't. His first time. Did he tell you that? Was he up front about that, Mike, I feel like he hadn't. He had never. His first time. Did he tell you that? Was he up front about that? Oh, he was up front about that.

And then I've ridden a handful of, maybe I get on a horse. I probably don't get on a horse every year even, right? But I've had occasion to ride here and there. I would say, though, and you'd know better than me i would say that the the topography uh and and the trails and lack of trails where you guys ride would have to be that like if you were gonna put like riding on a you know like a 1 to 10 in severity, you're up there. We're up there. You'd agree, right? I mean, you're in the 9.

I felt like we were 10 every day all week. Well, Seth has a horse allergy. So Seth has a horse allergy and his horse fell. So he was out from. And I have no experience. And no experience. Well, I think one of the things that we run into is each time we get with new clients, you try to associate and get a feel for what, number one, what their confidence level is.

Number two, what their experience level is. And then also the physical makeup of the individual is another component that we look at. Like what do you mean? As far as their size. Oh. And we try to kind of pair them up with a horse that we feel like will work with them, like my dad mentioned, personality wise, but also in their ability and their stature to be able to carry a person. Because a lot of times the horses are more than capable of carrying them and following the horse in front, which is typically your guide. And so we try not to put people in a situation where they feel like their life is in danger because of their inexperience.

But, you know, obviously there is that confidence level. And we do have certain horses that based on the way they move and the way they travel, they just have the capacity to help settle or, I don't know, bring a little bit of peace to the people that are riding them. Yeah. I like it that Giannis took you guys aside and said that if I get hurt, this is all over. He did. So I got the slowest. I got the slowest, most mellow horse in the world. She's a non-reactor.

She really does. She doesn't get excited about much unless she's in the lead. I used to ride her. I rode her for a couple of years. And she was really spooky when she was in the lead because your lead horse is your alarm watchdog. Yeah, you told me that taking off and I thought about it watching Blue's ears

because Blue had an opportunity to be out front today. You said the lead horse will do its ears different than the horses behind. Yeah. They turn them and angle them forward. Yeah. That was weird to see that she she does that and that and they are you know and every horse behind the lead horse is somewhat

in a more casual relaxed uh feel because they know that if there's something that's going to bugger the front horse they're a little safer it's kind of like that old adage about if you're being chased by a bear with your buddy it's who's the fastest you know it's gonna happen and they they kind of get relaxed in that second position knowing that the the first one is is the one that's going to take the the hit if something ever happens yeah seth was saying his horse doesn't like to be first or last no yeah high heels was when when when she would be in the back, her head would constantly be off to the side. Looking behind her.

Yeah. And that's typical of the hind horse as well. They are somewhat the watchdog on the back, and so they're a little more antsy about what's going to come up and bite them on the butt. Yeah, she didn't like that at all and uh they that's just but the horses in the middle they're kind of cool you know they think well the front life is good they've got us covered yeah old high heels love the middle yeah she's a middle horse for sure that's interesting blondie the horse i was riding she didn't like to be out front

too much she liked to be the second horse yeah yeah there's uh and some of that's by nature and some of us by habit to you know you ride a horse enough in the front they get used to liking to be in the front um but then there's those and people are the same way you know i i make a lot of being raised on a ranch i make a lot of comparisons between cattle and people are the same way. You know, I make a lot of, being raised on a ranch, I make a lot of comparisons between cattle and people. My wife doesn't always appreciate that. But that's something I observed, and I thought, yeah, that's just like so-and-so, or that's just like that person. And that's just because you see they're not just something

that stands out in the field and is dumb. They, they have a personality, they have a mind. Um, and so you, you do recognize that. And those are, those are really, those, those are important issues in the field to try to help you understand how to be safe. We, when we're shopping for horses to replace,

uh, some of our older stock, we're pretty, uh, cognizant of what we see in their eye first because there's something in the eye of a horse when you look at them and without them really looking at you but just watching their behavior, you get a sense or feel, are they one that trusts people, trusts you? Are they always watching you?

The ones that are always watching you sometimes are the ones that can really get messed up in a string. Growing up, my dad always said, you know, horse, talking about the difference between horses and mules. And, you know, maybe people in the mule business have a way different experience. But dad said, you know, a horse will let you actually hurt them into a position of being hurt. Whereas a mule, and we had a few mules through the years, and they just wouldn't, they flat out, if they thought they were going to get hurt or in a predicament,

they weren't going to let you do it. And that's why they'd say stubborn as a mule. They'd lock up. You couldn't get them to do what you thought and you'd get, get on a horse and you can make them do that. And, uh, and so we see that a lot with, uh, with our animals.

There's a trust factor. So we look at, we look at their, you know, not only their physical stature and their, their athleticism, but Landon alluded to the fact that not every horse that you ride that's really good on flat land is going to be good up in the hills. It's a different style of balance between rider and slope. Had the conversation with Adam a little bit about, you know, sometimes why some horses feel like they slip a little bit.

Well, some of that's due to the rider because of the way the rider balances himself. You know, is he working against the horse on a side hill? For instance, we talked about that early on. I tell my hunters all the time, don't lean into the mountain. I mean, you're just taking a fulcrum point. It's like you're almost asking that horse. You mean getting spooked and leaning they get nervous because they're on a side heel

yeah we walked one night after dark we walked next to a cliff that would have been absolute death I mean it was if you went off the cliff you'd die, you and the horse would die and I sat there wondering what is the horse's

sort of awareness of the fact that it would die if and uh and i sat there more like what is the horse's sort of awareness of the fact that it would die if it fell off that cliff and you could definitely feel your body wanting to lean away from lean the horse into a safe direction like a motorcycle yeah and i remember what you're saying is like let the horse balance itself yeah don't the same thing happened when when because bandy, my horse, slipped on some shale one day and slipped on some ice going up a hill. And I've ridden a decent amount

and had horses when I was young. And yet I found myself timid going up the ice. It was pretty steep and it was pretty icy and she was slipping. She felt me being timid and I was kind of pulling her back like, whoa, okay, let's go one step at a time he said one of the horse's best friends are momentum in that case so i was holding her back

from her natural instinct she's like dude i'm gonna power this adam it's no big deal it's just a little icy slope let me go i didn't she slipped my fault yeah and from the rest of the trip when he gave me that momentum motivational speech like we'd get to something that i'm like oh it's pretty shaley uh pretty icy, pretty snowy. I just go, yeah, you know, and just start kicking her. And we just truck up this thing and she had no problem with it. And that's a big thing, I think, too, is that whole trust factor at night without our headlamps on. It's that same thing, right?

When we're on the side of the cliffs, it's like this horse can do it. Let it do it and don't hold it back. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers. You're irritated.

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in terms of sort of to get out to your camp, like the length of ride and then, and then what you arrive at? Well, basically from Cokeville, what we do is we drive two hours by truck. Um, from that point, we trailhead out and, and we ride from the trailhead another seven miles on horseback through a variety of up and downs and and some some steeper country um and so you know it's definitely one of those things when we're

hunting you're staying on the mountain till dark and you're typically leaving in the dark from camp and so you spend a lot of time and can spend a lot of time on the horse in the dark and and so people can get intimidated by that wondering if their horse can actually even see if they're going to be able to follow the trail and so the tendency for a lot of people is to put their headlight on which in it actually impedes the ability of the horse to see um that's a that's a i know that that's true that was a difficult thing for me. Me too. I would do it at times, but at times I had to turn my light on.

Well, it's a trust issue. It's like a little bit of a sanity issue. I guess we were in that trail so many times in the dark. Sometimes, in some of those darker timber patches, it really is no different than when you're in a roller coaster and it goes through the dark tunnel. And you can't see your hand in front of your face. But they might not have a tree branch at eye level on the

roller coaster. On the trail, there could be tree branches at eye level. Yeah, like Walt Disney doesn't hold a spruce bough as you're going through the tunnel and slap you in the face of the thing. If I had multiple people in front of me,

and they weren't going, ow, ow, then I'm like, cool, man, I'll turn my light off. But when I'm out, when I happen to be in front for a little bit, I couldn't let my, I, I, I, I, theoretically, I understood. I was like, the horse stay on the trail. But I couldn't bring myself to do it. Well. Because I needed to know if I was going to get smacked in the face.

When I rode out the other night, Saturday night, when I left the trail or left camp at about 1030 at night, I would periodically turn my light on to look back and check the pack horses I was leading out to make sure the packs were square. Every time I turned my light on to look back, they would stop because they couldn't see anymore. Yeah. And so at that point like i just

knew that i needed to shut my light off and and just periodically check which there's nothing wrong with that but it shows the fact that it does impede their ability to continue to see yeah you're uh stewart you kind of i don't even want to call it passive aggressive uh i was out front one at one moment i went up in front for a minute, and I had my lamp on, and you'd said to me, isn't it amazing how they can find their way in the dark? A shot took to me and turned your headlamp off. You guys camp.

So your camp's out in the, you have a camp in a national forest. Yep. It's all public. And so, you know, really the thing that sets us apart is to be able to get back in that backcountry and get away from the public. Because there's a lot of people that don't want to go to the effort of getting back there. And so we rely on the horses to do that for us. Just a matter of, I mean, not only transporting gear, but transporting game. Oh, yeah.

You knock something down seven miles, who wants to pack an elk out and have to make four trips? And it's not going to be just going down. Yeah, it's not just a downhill. You got up and down, and you're climbing an elevation of probably 2,000 feet at any given point. Mm-hmm. So. And then, so it's our national forest, but you guys have an arrangement with the national forest. We have a special use permit that we have the rights to for a period of time, and then we can renew that.

For instance, we just renewed ours this year, which will be good for another eight years. And then they periodically go over things. They want to make sure you're abiding by the rules that are set out by the forest service to, uh, be able to run a camp, uh, and do it right. We're governed kind of by two bodies where we're hunting on the forest service ground and we have some, we on on some other uh government grounds but uh speaking of the forest service um we we fill a report out to them uh every year at the year's end saying what we had for clients uh how many days they were on the forest and uh and we

pay a fee and and uh that's where the fee comes in place is how much you're using it we we pay a fee. So that's where the fee comes in place is how much you're using it. We pay a flat rate fee for the campsite. Oh, I see. And then we pay a percentage of the gross income at the end of the year. Oh. And then we're governed also as far as the outfitter license, which I hold for Crooked Sky Outfitters. They kind of govern us as well, making sure

that we're abiding by the laws, the game and fish laws, and as well as the, the forest service, uh, you know, responsibilities that we have there. And what you have, the infrastructure you have is pretty light. So you have a, a small corral, which is largely just composed of brush and log.

Yep. I gathered at one time it was a sight to behold. Yeah. At one time, you know, the snows get pretty deep up there and break down your fences that we had a buck and pole corral fence all the way around. But the snows have since dilapidated that and sometimes we'd never had the time to go up

because it takes a lot of energy to try to drag dead lodgepole pine from off the mountain there 200 feet or 200 yards or 300 yards up and drag it down and it's been probably 20 years since we did the corral initially like that. So it's lasted a long time but as you can see the weather has worn it. The horses crib on it, and your seapoles break after that. But that's one of the things, and we've appreciated at least the Forest Service Department that we work with out of Kemmerer.

They've been good people to work with and have been very helpful and we've been grateful that we've had that. Fortunate, first of all, that Uncle Sharon was able to get that camp back in the early 60s, even when he didn't use it that much back then. It wasn't until I came in that we started to really use that upper camp because we have a lower base camp and that was accessible by, and still is accessible by vehicle. Um, so, but I've always been in the upper camp and so I've always enjoyed the aspect of what we have there.

It's a lot more work because we have to pack all our feed in by, by horses. We have to, you know, make sure that we've, uh, got that feed in cause it's a long ways to go back and get feed if you don't have quite enough. Yeah, you don't graze your horses out. You don't pasture your horses out on the forest land.

We don't. You got to bring in your food. We bring the food in. And so it's a pretty labor intensive. We often say it's a labor of love what we do. And it truly is. Because we all know that when you really love something that you do, we often say it's a labor of love what we do. And it truly is because we all know that when, when you really love something that you do as hard as it is and physically demands is it's not something you despise because it's work. Yeah.

Yeah. It's something that you just say, I love what I do. Every job has its, uh, I call it grunt work jobs, you know, stuff that you just don't like to do. Uh, but we like doing just about everything. I call it grunt work jobs, stuff that you just don't like to do. But we like doing just about everything. Even though it's physical, it's demanding. Yeah, and you have a corral. You have a cache.

You guys built out a beetle kill pine where you can put some stuff over here. Then you have a tarp structure for your tack. Yep. Then you have a couple tent platforms. We did. You set up wall tents on those tent platforms and put wood stoves in there. We used to have the wood floors with lodgepole pine frames that we could just pull our tents over. And then we'd put the tents away, and then the frames would stay up. But those frames would often be caved in the next spring when we'd ride in and we'd have to rebuild.

And so it's been probably, what, 10 or so years ago, close to 10 years, eight to 10 years ago that I decided to see if I could get approval from the Forest Service to redo the floors, you know, like they were, only make them structured a little more sound. Yeah, because I noticed today that you guys had, they're put on sonitudes. Did you guys pour those there? No, we packed in cement and we poured the concrete columns. We couldn't put any rebar because that was an agreement

that we wouldn't put rebar in there. Yeah, I was looking at those. I always call them pilings. What do you call them? Sauntus? The other columns, the cement columns. Yeah. So that made it possible for us to build the floor a little more stable

because they do have a footing. We enlarged the footing below the sauna tube. I'm sorry. I'm dense. What is the word you're saying? Sauna tube. I'm dense. What is the word you're saying? Sauna tube is a cardboard form. Sauna. Sauna.

I'm picturing like a hot room with wood. It's a lot of S-O-N-O. Yeah, it's probably like calling a tissue a Kleenex, right? It's the company name. It's a brand name. So not sauna. So it's kind of a cardboard type material. No, I'm super familiar with them,. I just never heard that term before.

Yeah, Sonotube. Okay. And so that's what we were, they were willing to let us to do that, to improve the look and the campsite. But then I asked them if we could, if we put a metal frame in there. So I got some, and they approved that and we got. Yeah, but you could have the whole thing down in an hour. Right.

Yep. And so we've got the metal conduit frames that allow us to be able to pull those tents on there. And it just makes a comfortable campsite. And a huge stainless sink. A stainless sink and wood stoves. The stainless sink came in on a horse, right? Five foot? On a big mule. Five foot stainless sink.

It's actually eight foot long. Three bays. Eight, okay. Three sink bays in it, and then a drying rack on the end. And you're saying the mule that carried it in couldn't lift his head up all the way because he had that thing on him. It had that on the, we'd raise it up on, we're packing in some cots, and we put those in some hard panniers, and we were able to elevate it off the the top of her head there she couldn't raise it up all the way she

had to walk with her head about shoulder level the whole way for seven months i remember walking the tent the first time and saw that i was like now how did that get here yeah she uh she was a good old mule. We called her Molly. The fact Lannan was four years old when I put him on her. She just took care of him. She tried to brush him off under pine boughs every once in a while.

Was she really big? I used a mule last year that was ginormous and her name was Molly. That's funny. Was she brown? She's dead. She was about 30 when she died no it'd be a different mule then yeah it sounds like she'd been around the block we packed her uh out of a you know we in fact if we had real steep terrain to pack an elk out or a mule deer we usually took her is Is it true that, people tell me this all the time,

is it true that a horse or a mule will deliberately go under a sweeper to try to dislodge the rider, or is it just that it knows it can fit and it doesn't think about whether or not there's a rider who's going to get dislodged? I think there's a little of both. I watched Landon with Mollylly and and she deliberately would walk close to trees the trail wasn't under the tree she would deliberately walk under it and he'd just kind of lay back and then he'd pop up like one of those little blow up things that he'd come right back up in the saddle there like you know that was no big deal and

he'd just ride around some more but I watched her and it was very deliberate. Um, and I've seen it with other horses. I've, I've ridden horses that have, have seemed to be a little more deliberate in their approach to rather than going around the tree, even when the trail was taking you around, they shortcut it. Yeah.

And, uh, so they're, they're a little smarter than what you think. I've seen some funny things. I saw a hunter, uh, we'd seen some elk and we were galloping up the hill because I'd kicked my horse into a gallop. And we were, it wasn't a steep hill, but it was enough that we had some momentum going. And he was the last guy and he wasn't, hadn't had no control of that horse. And she took him under a great big Doug fir that had, there was a pine bough that would have been probably about, oh, three inches across, hanging out from the tree at least 12 to 14 feet.

And it was low enough at saddle horn height. The flex of that finally could only go so far. It just catapulted him off the back of the horse. It was a cartoon to behold because it just blew him right off the back of the horse. All the other guys were laughing at him. He wasn't too excited about that, but they will. I mean, in that case, I don't think the horse was thinking, I'm going to get the rider off. I'm just trying to catch up with the rest of the group. And he wasn't right directly behind. And that guy didn't control the horse.

So he ended up in the pine bough, you know, catapult region. Once we set out to start hunting, I felt like you probably did do this. I felt like you kind of wanted to work close first and then as the days go on you kind of gradually start doing bigger forays out into well and where our camp is situated i think we have some of the prime hunting just within a very short ride i mean you're talking right above camp you're hearing elk bugle you're seeing deer within a 10 minute ride of being outside of camp. And we've even spotted deer from camp. Um, and so that's one of the great things of where we're located is that you have that nucleus, if you like, um, where you can just branch out. And then

we know there's other country out there that we can go out. And, and if we needed to, like we did this trip to try and see if we couldn't find, I mean, we saw plenty of bucks. We just needed to see what else was out there and if we could find, you know, that one big buck that was hanging out that was just maybe on the perimeter. But that's definitely the benefit of where we're at. Yeah, that first day out when Adam and I rode off with Stuart, I mean, we must have, I think we saw 14 bucks or something like that.

14 bucks. I think, was that the day? 30, 40 elk and two bears. Yeah, it was undisturbed. Like it was undisturbed. It was the opening day. Yeah. And we didn't go far and it was just deer, deer, deer, deer, deer, deer, deer.

Yeah. And in the middle of it, getting distracted by elk bugling and all the other cool things out there chasing after a bear oh man yeah we saw a bear and decided to go run it down on the side of a you know pretty rocky hill and go after it but yeah i mean that was all well we went a pretty good distance even that first day though yeah didn't we i mean we went it's fun seeing that many deer though. It was. Well, and the other thing that we, we, we feel like, I mean, they sense your presence and we don't like to just, you know, keep it so tight that perhaps it makes it that much more difficult, but it also gives the hunter another perspective because you can see maybe from where you went the day before, country back, looking back on some of the country you were, a little better angle than what you experienced because of the fact that we had been there a couple different times looking off in that same spot.

But because of our perspective, we could not see everything that was below us. You know what's funny about that spot is the first time we went there, you were talking about how bucks like to lay on this cliff face. It's not a cliff face, but a very cliffy, full of avalanche shoots and fingers of timber. And rocky. And you're like, they like to lay here. And you started creeping along peering over the edge and adam said to me i i do gather they'd like to lay here based off stewart's

like very intense focus down the hill you know it's like you're like expecting to find one and then lo and behold that's where you shot your buck yeah but that's what i're expecting to find one. And then lo and behold. That's where you shot your buck. Yeah, but that's what I was going to talk about. We twice crept along that glassing down those avalanche shoots and seeing deer laying here and there on it. And possibly twice, because he was a little bit farther down possibly maybe twice walked past the buck that i got but then it wasn't till it wasn't till we then went around to peer back onto that hillside and then it wasn't even like we i sat down landing to start glassing that

hillside between snow squalls and i didn't have my tripod set up and he's like but you know there's a buck like and i was like man one of our camera guys lost his sunglasses about 50 yards from that buck you know um but looking back on it was interesting because there he was and that's and that's what's kind of fun about it it's difficult country from the perspective of not being able to see it in a clear, concise, imaginary way of saying, this is how I would imagine it would have played out. And then you go around on the other side looking back and you can see where timber, the lay of the land, how the timber and the shadows fall on it you say now i can see why we didn't see as many or see that buck there because he was able to hide in such a fashion that we couldn't see him from above he could only be seen from the angle down below or on another i don't want to give away too many of you guys trade secrets but in the daytime in the warm part of the day or in the midday

you guys like to be up looking down a face knowing that it's so steep that the deer gonna bed basically they're bedding up against trees they dig out little beds and they're on the top usually on the top side yeah and you're not gonna see them from across but then in the mornings or evenings you can go around and peer back onto the hillside when they might be on their feet yeah but in the daytime you'd like to be or at bedding time you'd like to be peering straight down and what that meant in this terrain was often several miles and several thousand feet of elevation you don't just go running over there no it's not like oh let's go to the bottom now like you know yesterday or whenever that was day before i guess with yannis's buck i mean it was three miles around to get to where we could see you know from that other angle so with the terrain it means a lot of moving but it's either that or nap midday

which i know you do like steve. I like it under certain conditions. When you can't be productive during that noon hour. And when it's very nice and warm. I took one, like this week I took one 10-minute nap. That's all I got, one 10-minute. Giannis, how many did you have? At least three good ones. Like one period of time.

Oh, a good nap for me is like 90 minutes plus the very first day we were out we were probably pushing two and a half yeah yeah we're landing it was good just laid low well it got hot you know and it kind of you know the action died down and but we did end up seeing a lot of bedded bucks this week didn't't we? Yeah, for sure, man. Finding bedded bucks. That's especially exciting. It is. We one time did an episode of our show where I crawled up on and shot a bedded antelope and got a handful of emails. People all riled up about that. It's not sportsmanlike.

I'm like, you go creep up on a bedded down antelope. And then come tell me it's not sportsmanlike. It'm like, you go creep up on a bed of downed animal. And then come tell me it's not sportsmanlike. Yeah. It's not easy to creep up on them. Well, yeah, and there's that argument, too, of like, wouldn't you like to die in your sleep? Yeah, like it's somehow better to shoot one that's staring at you. Yeah.

Well, and that's exactly, and that's why, you know, like the day that Adam shot his buck, we had decided to let, and I call it to get off and do an Indian hunt because I respect their, their method of how they had to hunt in the early day. They had to, they had to sneak up on things. And get close. And get close.

They didn't have 15 power scopes. Didn't have the high powered rifles nor, or good binoculars to, to really help their cause. And so everything was very stealth driven. And, and I like that style of hunt where you go into a patch of timber that you know is a place where they bed down on a regular basis. And you're, you're matched with their sense,

their keen sense of smell and hearing, basis, and you're matched with their sense, their keen sense of smell and hearing and whatever other sense that they have that seems to, if they sense danger, they're out of there. Will you try to pull off, I just call it a still hunt. Will you try to pull that off with a client in tow? Yeah, yeah, I've done that. In fact, I'll put them in front of me. Oh, really? And I'll just say.

Then you'll say, hey, back up because you missed a deer. I'll just say, we're going to walk just a couple steps quietly and we're going to glass. And we're going to glass. And then we'll make a few more. So it takes you a long time to get through a patch of timber. But I've noticed through the years and depending on the terrain um i've always been amazed at how an animal will see you coming and and are blowing out the timber when you're thinking god i didn't even see them well that's because their eyeballs are usually down you know maybe knee height because they're better down

and and that's where a lot of your your brush sometimes in at least in our terrain is is less Their eyeballs are usually down, you know, maybe knee height because they're bedded down. And that's where a lot of your brush sometimes, at least in our terrain, is less. So they see your leg movement and you can't see them. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's absolutely critical if you're going to go in there. Yeah, your head's up in the fur needles and stuff and they're looking. Exactly. And they're seeing low. So they see that movement and that's something that is a set off to them, even though there may

be no scent, it's something different and it alarms them. And so you, I, I, I like the challenge because when you go through like that, uh, if you're going to just march, parade through a patch of timber and think you're going to get a buck, uh, the buck's really got to be tired and sleepy. Yeah.

Uh. It occurred to me just while we're having this conversation that of the three deer we got um we got them using three very different methods we got one sort of like the one i got was like very like very textbook spot and stalk like spot it from way off while we're like sitting there and intentionally glassing a distant hillside crept up on it and you know sniped it from the ways off and then adam got one still hunting creeping through the timber and then yanni got one in a classic almost like deer drive. Not almost. Classic. Classic deer drive.

Well, I always say almost because more deer drives don't happen on a 45-degree angle. I was just about to say. Anybody can say classic unless you're the one driving with Stuart. Do you want me to unpack mine? Yeah. And then we. Yeah, I'll talk about that. Silly story. You and I, Steve, came around on this hill where we knew there was a bunch of timber.

And you were going down, what were you talking, maybe 300 yards below me? Yeah, can I stop? Yeah. Then I'm going to let you just go. Okay. Have you heard the term still hunt? Me? No.

I have. I have. But I guess through the years, I've just... I'm not taking offense. I'm not taking offense. I'm not taking offense that saying like an Indian hunt, but I mean, in the East, you call it a still hunt. Yeah. And it means like going...

I remember my dad writing a letter to the editor because a guy wrote an article. He had the letter. The letter to the editor was published and he kept it in his office where a guy wrote an article describing his still hunting strategy. And my dad calculated that by the end of the day he would be 50 yards from his truck because his description that he

takes a step and waits five minutes or whatever my dad got to thinking well he wouldn't make it anywhere but uh so you have heard the term i have heard the term still i always thought it was misleading because you're not being still like you think like how is sitting in a tree stand not still hunting yeah you're still no one's going anywhere but it means to still hunt means to not be still well and then be still and then not be still off and on yeah i think the way i've always uh twisted it to make make it make that term make sense in my head is that you move in such a way that if something looks at you, it would perceive you as being still. That's what you had to do to make that make sense? That's fine.

Okay, go ahead, Adam. Sorry. I wanted to get into the nomenclature a little bit. So, yeah, so we headed into this patch of timber knowing a few different things. Number one, if we were to spook a buck, you got to be ready, like really quick sometimes. What that means is you got to be ready with your rifle really quick.

So whether it's slung on your shoulder, holding it in your hand, number two, you may not have a lot of time to judge its size. And that makes it a little bit more challenging as well. But it also brings about a different sort of adrenaline, you know, when you just boom, it's right there. And what am I going to do in that moment? Yeah, you feel all of a sudden you feel very present. Yes. And it also, even right when you hop in the brush, the timber at that moment, even though you have no clue if there's a deer in there or where the deer is, you feel like you're stalking something and you have that, that like, okay, let's be real quiet. You know, you just, even to yourself,

and I'm going to go because there's probably one right here and there's probably one. So it's kind of exciting. You can't nap while still hunting. Yeah then also stewart was pretty precise he's like you go that far you go that far i will meet you over here is this getting into zones no no no i'm not gonna get into you i'm not gonna get into you so i'm not gonna get into you strain into myself so it was i was gonna be at the. So I was going to be at the top. Steve, you were going to be at the bottom,

nearer to where there was kind of an open bench. And so I went in towards the top, and there was all sorts of sign in there, both elk and deer. And bear, actually. It was the same area that we'd seen the black bear two days before. And it was a bear tracking the snow.

Fresh. And it had snowed. That morning is when it snowed, I believe. Yeah. This was day three of our hunt. So we'd gone day one, day two. We'd seen a lot of bucks every day. They'd all been small. Nothing, I don't believe, wider than their ears on those first couple days.

And so we kind of punched in there and, yeah, saw the bear heading the same direction that I was heading with what would have been in the last five to six hours. A bear had been through there in that same direction. Came through a whole lot of elk sign, a whole lot of deer sign, a lot of beds. Beds were everywhere in there. I mean, the smell was there. So all your senses, I mean, it's fun. You know, I mean, all your senses, you're seeing tracks, you're doing all these things. And so, you know, it was awesome.

So we get to the middle of probably this section and I'd put, you know, on X where Stuart was going to be at the end, you know, put a little waypoint where we were going to meet up. And so really kind of sidehilling, all of a sudden stepped in this open area in the middle of this timber where there's probably 50 yards of clearing. And there was a buck standing there and probably stood there for a second or two and then trotted off a period of three to four total seconds not enough to get my glass up not it wasn't that far though at the same time not enough to get my rifle scope up you know it was just like there's a deer that you know you're just kind of taken off guard and he didn't stand there for a long time,

like sometimes they might do. And I was surprised, to be honest, that we were able to sneak up on him like we did. He was on the other edge of this kind of little open meadow. You feel that when you spotted him, he had probably just stood up? Yes. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, definitely. Because when we walked over there, a couple minutes later, there was a bed right there. Oh, okay. So I decided, decided i'm like usually if you bump a deer in that case the deer's gone and okay let's keep going through and then i'm like oh now we probably just went through and bumped the whole stinking you know side of the

hill and everything's going to be gone yeah you don't generally decide to go and check out where it went but i did well i i just said i i wonder if i knew in that case in the midst of timber there's no way on earth you'd ever in a million years gonna be able to catch that buck right i mean one in a million but i said if there's an open clearing we could kind of i could kind of truck through this timber and maybe see it going up a clearing and it stops broadside for a second looks back at you right that sort of thing and so pulled up the map it kind of looked along there and saw quarter mile half mile something like that further down this hill you know side hilling it so further in the direction i was already gonna be going but slightly down a little towards the border of my

zone and your zone steve close to that border, but not across it. Just to be clear. Yes. I found you. Wait, I'm not getting there yet. I'm working the lower end. Which is where my deer went. I found you well below me. I got on a hunt.

I was hunting. It was fair chase, and I was chasing. You went into like a third zone that hadn't been discussed. It was lower than my zone. That's correct. That's correct. I cannot confirm nor deny. So basically, I go down through here,

and I kind of went up higher at first thinking I'd look down because I thought the angle direction that the buck did leave was more down in the same direction that I had been going. And so anyways, I get to where this clearing is and I get to look out in the clearing and there's no buck. But as I look towards the left down the hill, I see the rack through the trees with my bare eyes. It was 125 yards away. It was hard to range because it was through the trees with my bare eyes it was 125 yards away it was hard to range because it was through the trees and if i moved my head three inches or six inch to the right left up or down like i'd lose the deer it was one of you know when you just zone in and it was like your window

eyeball to eyeball with the window me looking straight at this deer straight on i could see it was wider than its ears and it was wider than anything we see. I couldn't see due to all the trees and branches. It couldn't see the forest, couldn't see more, you know, about thickness, et cetera. So I stopped and stared at this buck and got on my binos and the buck didn't move, didn't blink, didn't twitch an ear and just stared right at me. It's crazy when you talk about, Stuart, how the deer can see you, because I felt pretty lucky that I saw this deer through this window, and it obviously saw me right away. And so I'm looking through this thing, and I put up the binos, and I'm just wanting him to turn his head so I can get a clear look from the side. Wouldn't turn his head, wouldn't move, Thing straight on. And then I ended up picking up

my rifle. And the thing is, it was at that type of height where I couldn't, I certainly couldn't go prone. I couldn't sit down. And I have that tripod, you know, and it can go up and down or whatever. And I can use the sticks. If I was standing like at a regular standing height, number one, over a hundred yards, I don't like to do freestanding, especially with the visibility there. It was a crouching position. It was like the most awkward position that you can have

is this crouching position is the angle I could see the deer at. I knew if I left this window, the deer was gone. Yeah. And so I'm sitting there and I get my stick. It must've looked like the most uncoordinated setup because I'm like this, my feet kind of kept falling. And so I get the rest and I have the crosshairs on the deer, but I can only see kind of from the chest up, half the chest up,

and it's looking straight on. And so at that point I knew the thing, I was hoping the thing would turn. And then I'd have maybe a second or two for it to step across, maybe a wide enough clearing, maybe its body length, and for me to judge its antlers and pull the trigger. And so I was sitting there and I was thinking, but you know how it is. Once you have your crosshairs on the animal, once the animal's looking at you, I can see it's wider than its ears. I even turned to my cameraman behind me who was with me and said I'm gonna kind of wait and see and I was like talking to him and just wrestling it through in my mind yeah as soon as he turns his shoulder I'm gonna gauge it well sure enough I finally get in position it had it had been

minutes of just a direct stare off right there and the deer turns presents its shoulder and I just pulled the trigger i just it was that instinct of like there's the shoulder there's the crosshairs through the trees and uh down it went in that one shot and uh so i run around even kind of just leave my packs at my spotting scope out everything kind of on the ground steep hill and i just because of the brush i wanted to kind of on the ground, steep hill. And I just, cause of the brush, I wanted to kind of get over to the side to just see what was going on, what had happened. But I could see that the thing just went straight down and sure enough, it, it, it didn't move but five or 10 feet from where we found it and walked up on the buck and started taking some, you know, some pictures and whatnot kind of before we'd gutted it out and celebrating.

Honestly, I'd been looking probably for a larger buck, but in that moment, it was the end of day three, and we hadn't seen any shooter bucks yet, and I just said, oh, let's get something on the ground, and I didn't wait eight years. It was time. It's a general tag for me. I'm like, I'll just come back next year if I want to.

This guy's got to wait until my kids are grown and married and probably have children before they can come again. So then I recover the buck and then all of a sudden, I see Steve walking clearly into my zone. Yeah. Coming down. Head downhill.

And Stuart, and they'd both heard the shot and came up. And it was, I would say, probably pretty close to your zone, Steve. It was. But it had traveled,

like I'd spotted it well in my zone. Yes. And so I don't know where that is in a book of hunting tactics. No, I think if you're on a hot trail, you get to just bust zone. I think, okay, how often do you bump a deer while still hunting? Look at something on a map, go and find it and shoot it. But I would have shot that bug had I come across it.

Yeah? Yeah, for sure, man. Yeah. Day three. Was it day three or day four? It was afternoon of day three, about 2.30, 3 o'clock. Which incidentally,

just a point that I hadn't thought about, all of the bucks we shot this week were in the early evening hours. That's a good point. You're right. The one I got got it's an interesting story but the the the highlight of my trip um besides me to you guys and watching you work with the horses and and and all that which is really educational uh the highlight of my trip was

something i glimpsed and it's it's words don't really do it justice, but when we're out hunting, there's a lot of deer around, and we have a long time. And we're all admirers of big mule deer. So we're trying to find mature bucks with big racks on them. And then kind of wrestling with this equation of how much time do you have left. And I'm like, I'm definitely going to get a buck so i'm gonna wait and i'll wait but i gotta wait too long and yes it's like i'm willing to go home with no buck i'm gonna keep waiting and you know you're wrestling all this out in your head and meanwhile you're looking at you're always seeing

deer and so every time you see a mule deer's rump through the timber or wherever it is um no matter what i mean you got to sit down and assess that thing and see what it is like is it a bark is it a big bark and there was a time i was i think i was with yeah i was with stewart i can't remember who else is there but i was with you and we i think you had spotted a deer in some timber and then i started looking in there and and we started to put together there's three of them in there and we see two of them we see there's just two little ones and there's a third one we're waiting for the third one to reveal itself and one of these other boxes he'd stepped

into a spot where he's just got the bright sunlight on his rump and they really shine and the buck that i was waiting to see i couldn't see him at all now he's completely behind a tree but all of a sudden i see the most perfect shadow of his rack on the sunlit buck to the point where i was like oh it's a three by three because its shadow was like someone doing like finger puppets on a bedroom wall blasted against this deer and it lasted like this fleeting glimpse but it was the most bizarre thing i've seen in a while just like a perfect like i didn't even need to stick around to let him come out of where he was hiding because of how perfectly shadowed his deal was.

But the day I got the buck I got, we kind of scoured around a fair bit. And it was real snowy. And the kind of strange thing, this really fortuitous series of events happened where we saw a doe, or we saw a deer. And by the time we could set up a spotting scope this the snow picked up so bad you couldn't see so you went and hit out and some trees to get out of the wind made a little fire and it got clear and the minute it got clear

right well let's go run down and look at the hillside we were trying to go look at and i'm still set up my spotting scope and landon's like there's deer that looks like a buck i set up my spotting scope like wow that's a that's a nice i mean i think it's nice buck was all the whole trip like that's a nice buck and i remember you had said uh quote what a stud and so of the buck not me and it was i don't know was at like 900 yards away or something that's quite a quite a ways away and all of a sudden our camera guy lauren remarks like man is there a squall headed our way and i look up the mountain and just like this wall of white is coming and this wall of white and it was fog, intense wind, and a lot of snow just engulfs us. And Landon and I kind of look at each other like, you know, we could walk over there.

Like this buck would never know. And we literally just ran through a whiteout, arrived at where we were like below the buck. The whiteout is so strong that we're able to pick which sort of tree would be best to hang out at, hunker down, and eventually you could kind of see the base of the hill. Then you could make out some timber. Then it cleared, and just there's the buck,

250 yards away. Yeah. Nothing works out like that it was perfect i mean the wind we kept watching the wind to make sure that our wind was right and the whole situation was just a perfect uh a perfect stalk and it couldn't have been any better because we caught him right in that window between the snowstorms oh yeah and then we were able to use a snowstorm as our cover to then get within a range where he didn't even know we were there because we had a bare hillside with open pockets that we needed to be able to get through to get down to him. But then the snow also helped muffle the noise.

The wind and everything. And then it got beautifully calm. And the other thing that we both observed later that never happens is we had a landmark, which was the shiny tree. Snag, yep. And a lot of times you'll kind of move away and your landmarks cease to make sense. Yep. But we got up and as it started to clear,

we were in agreement like, that's the tree. Yep, yep. And then lo and behold, like the bot was under the tree. Yeah. It was nothing, I mean, not nothing ever works out that way, but that was one of the more amazing. That's how good Crooked Sky is. They can call in squalls so you can make a stop.

He summoned a squall. That's right. He summoned a squall. I wish we had that kind of power sometimes. And how far was that? How far did you get then when you stopped? Was it two something? We stopped and hunkered down and waited for the weather to clear. when the box stepped i mean he's i say he stepped out but he said yeah he

stepped out we couldn't see him and also there he was 256 yards nothing ever works out quite like that unless stewart says i've got a plan let's drive this piece of timber up here at 10,000 feet on the side of this shale mountain. And you just go and sit down at the end of the shale mountain and wait for a buck to come to you. Your word for it doesn't give away your spot. That's your own personal term for it? Or do people know it as that?

I think they know it, you said, huh? You know, I don't know. We gave it a name, but I don't think there's any name on a map like that. But we gave it a name of Dangling Gardens because you're virtually hanging when you're coming around through that patch of timber. You're grabbing for any kind of pine bough to keep you upright because it's really steep on the side slant with rock. And it's a workout. It'll have you in a lather just in about a half a mile hike.

I tripped 11 times and slid downhill on that drive for you. You had a little counter. You just pressed the button every time. My film guy just kept laughing. And then on the way back, he kept doing it. That was, and that's the thing, man. So much respect for you, Stuart, of the, I mean, the physical nature.

We talk a lot about horseback, but I mean, that day that you shot your buck, Giannis, I mean, it was, you know, I think I looked, it was 18 miles, and maybe 10 of that was on horseback, and we didn't stop for 12, 14 hours. We were just going. Yeah, I know.

It was a beautiful day to walk around the mountains. I mean, it was just, yeah. Tell that story real quick. We had multiple good horse rides. Oh, no. I want to tell the story of the things. I think it kind of demonstrates when you're hunting with someone who spent 30 years hunting the area yeah just like talk about how that played out with the buck you got well prior to that was the first day i got to

hunt with stewart prior to that i've been hunting with land and we've been hunting sort of the other side of this drainage and looking over at this mountain which dangling gardens dangle on. And he kept saying, you know, there's bucks in that patch of timber. Like you're seeing them. Well, no. Well, he's seen them there in the past. And Adam went by it one day, and he's like, man, it's just like a big rocky hillside.

There's probably not any bucks over there. And then the next day, or no, that same afternoon, I hunted it backwards, and I looked over there some, and next day or no that same afternoon i hunted it backwards and i looked over there some and i'm like yeah it just doesn't look like a real bucky spot because it's just like rocks but landon had said it was too right yeah yeah um it was wasn't there a story of the past where you'd done the same thing and a lot of bucks came out of there yeah we had a hunter from pennsylvania and he'd been all over he'd been to africa and so he you know and he was he was a good hunter but he was in his older years and so that was a way for how'd you get him up there he couldn't be that old we well he was he was in his

uh he would have been in his late late 60s early 70s and uh he was a bigger fellow, but pretty physical and robust even at his age. But we rode him. We got him dropped off at the point that would have been close to where Giannis was. On horseback? On horseback. Oh, really? He wasn't going to get off. Wait, why'd we walk it?

No, that was the drop-off. That was the drop-off, not the hike through. But we went through that same batch of timber. We'd had it. It was a drop-off. That was a drop-off, not the hike through. But we went through that same batch of timber. It was a dry, almost Indian summary-type hunt week. And so everything was just really tough and held up in the timber tight. And we thought this is one of our only options is to see if we can walk through this strip of timber, which has kind of a natural funnel effect they don't like to go down on that they'd rather traverse around

because they've got to cover and feed and we haven't discussed we don't have time to get into we haven't discussed the slide like this is the most slide rock intensive location i've ever been screece it's it's a lot of rock and and a lot of, we call it slide rock up there, you know, from our terminology. And nothing wants to walk on that stuff. They don't like to. And so that's part of the, you know, that timber was kind of nestled in such a way that as it came around in a tree line fashion on that mountain that in the past we had driven at, and we had driven out. When we heard a shot, get around, he just killed a buck,

and the guy says, I had to do something. He says, there were 13 bucks went in front of me, and I had to take one. So, you know, he just, you know, it blew him away that that would even, because I think, and I thought the same thing early on, when you glass it, you're thinking, there's no way. It's too rocky, too, but they like, it does have brush in there that they like to nibble on, but there's places that they've, through the years, have, you know,

pawed out to make a bed on the uphill side of a tree. Yeah, they like excavate their beds and that stuff. They do. hillside of a tree yeah they like excavate their beds they do they do that buck i got was in a place i feel a lot of i feel most hunters would would not scrutinize the hill where i found the buck because they're gonna be looking at the meadowy stuff right you're gonna see all those beautiful grassy meadows not realizing that those older bucks are in the not they're in like like hidey holes like weird spots you know when we walked through those trees doing the drive and i saw a bed and i was like how did this bed even hardly get made i mean it's like how do you even level it out i mean it's

but they felt safe up there i mean we didn't think they were there probably nobody thought they were there i didn't think there was anything living on the side of that dangling gardens that's that's their bed down uh site you know that they can especially when it's cold they can go around it it gets that uh uh it's on a south facing slope and they can get that sun and yet they've got escape routes you know out the wazoo they can go down if they're spooked but you were pretty confident when we were there ahead of time with Giannis. We even said, well, wouldn't they go down or whatever? Nope, they'll usually go right around. They'll go around.

Yeah. Yeah, when we were looking at it from across the way, you kept saying, see how that band of timber just wraps right around that point? And it narrows down. It just necks down to where if they want to stay near any kind of timber,

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As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more as a special offer you can get a free three months to try on x out if you visit on x maps.com slash meet on x maps.com slash meet welcome to the to the on x club y'all so yeah anyways i hate to skip through all that all this day because we had this just this wonderful day of hunting that culminated in this in shooting this buck because we had seen prior to that i think eight eight other bucks at least we had three inches of fresh snow that morning like the biggest snow we had gotten it was the morning after you killed yours so that squall that had come in that allowed you to kill yours

laid down about two or three inches depending on where you were in the mountains. It was just like you couldn't pick a better morning. That's something I like to remark on. Did you notice how the weather seemed to really, like it was either very nice or you'd have this crazy squall move in and you'd be like, holy shit.

Then that would last for not too long and then all of a sudden it'd just be beautiful again. I definitely took notice of that. There wasn't a lot of in-between. There's a lot of putting clothes on and taking them off. For sure. Layers are very important. For sure.

But yeah, we hiked around a good bit like Adam said. We did basically one whole hunt and then decided to continue up the mountain, got back on our horses. And that's when I felt like we graduated to level 10 horse riding, was that afternoon, because we just went off the trail and just straight up. Straight up the mountain. It was the man from Snowy River, but uphill instead of down.

Yes. If you watch that movie, Backward. Right? It was. Oh, man. It was it was man it was it was cool um where did we get to we got to like uh we got to a pass we got up to a rim that uh that had could look down into a bowl great big bowl it was actually the only time we stopped all day did lunch there for about a half hour and other than that from dark to dark we didn't stop moving right i mean other than standing glass yeah other than the time when we got up to the top of this unnamed peak and stewart said i've got a plan and uh it involved you adam and stewart walking the dangling gardens and i was going to get to walk down the ridge and go sit and wait for bucks to come around the corner.

And, yeah, it worked out perfectly. I got nestled in, and I had a nice little shooting perch. I had my tripod set up where I could shoot zero to 250 yards if they came close. And if they got by me and kind of spilled out into this big open basin that was to my left, I had my pack already set up so I could switch positions and get on my pack and make a longer shot. You had your mise en place. Yes.

That's a culinary term. Yes. For? All your stuff in order. Yeah. Your prep. I used to have to do a lot of mise en place. Do you know what, shoot, I'm trying to remember the term now.

When you cut like a real fine dice, like a quarter inch, what's that called? When you got to have like quarter inch dice carrots in your mise en place. Come on. I know that when you get your carrots and your onions and your mushroom diced up, it's a mirepoix yeah no mushrooms though just celery onions and carrots but not to diverge um i was ready and it took a while you called on the radio and you said are you ready i said yeah he said

we're starting in and a lot of times on a, I feel like if it's going to happen, it happens pretty quick because you bump something. As soon as you get into the patch that you're going to push, and the deer or the elk or whatever goes through its zone, and it happens. Well, like 15 minutes went by, and I'm chatting with Tyler, the camera guy. I'm like, yeah, I'm half expecting these guys just to pop out at any moment, and we'll be getting on out of here. But I'm telling myself, stay ready, stay ready. ready and sure enough like right on the point of the ridge

here come two bodies you know two bucks coming well they're traveling together yep and uh they were probably i don't know 100 yards 150 yards below me kind of wrapping around and at some point for whatever reason when they were maybe 200 yards away they decided to come straight up the hill but i knew they wouldn't go over the top because it's all that shale rock and you know just there's no nothing to travel on and so they once they kind of hit that stuff they turned and almost made it tough because they were coming almost at me i didn't really have a shot i would have shot him earlier had he give me give me a broadside shot but he came and kept just coming

at me. So I had to wait until they finally just like the angle decreased and he became broadside and that was probably somewhere between 50 and 70 yards. That's pretty close. Piled him up. Yeah.

I was shooting for like chest, like front of the front shoulder because he was quartering two pretty severely. He was moving. I just had a little gap that he went through. I touched off and I caught him in the lower neck. Lost my neck roast. Lost half of one shoulder.

But yeah, he piled up. He didn't go anywhere. That was three bullets fired and three bucks down. I remember hearing that shot from across the canyon. You alerted me to the shot. Yeah. And I just listened for the radio chatter after that. And Stuart came on the radio asking if Yanni had shot.

And Yanni said, I had to shoot him almost in self-defense. Yeah. He was going gonna gore me it was good uh i'm gonna do i'm gonna do my concluder it's my concluder is a two-part concluder okay um part my part one of my concluder is we had there was a big winter kill. Two big winter kills in western Wyoming. And don't they estimate that about 50% of the mule deer got killed? Well, our fawn mortality was

over 90%. And I don't know what the total but you lose over 90% of your fawn crop. That's a big hit that severe yeah and we had talked about doing this hunt a couple years ago and landon uh generously in character with himself uh said you know you guys might want to wait a little bit to see kind of how things are going to shake out with the mule deer population um and there's still some

chatter you know in in in um people who like to hunt this area to some still some chatter about is it worth it or not and how are the mule deer doing uh my sense after looking around is that barring another weather catastrophe um this place is gonna be special in a couple years because there are a lot of up and coming i don't know if it always seems like that but there seems to be like a lot of up and coming bucks like a lot of like classic four by four mule deer bucks yeah on the mountain right now that are younger you're three and four year old bucks yeah and if like unless something some kind of other catastrophe would happen I'd have to think that things

gonna be like things are gonna be kind of back to the good old days yeah the genetics are all there and and the ones that survived that those tough winners are only going to pass on those good genetics and continue to build our herd. Yeah. And so I, you know, I think what we saw this week, you know, I, we probably saw 40 or 50

different bucks and a good chunk of those, I think being four point that are up and coming going to be mature bucks. The majority. Yep. This is really surprising. Yep. The majority. You don This is really surprising. Yep. The majority.

You almost have to worry about where are all the forkeys. Right. So I don't know where you guys are going to be at in five years, but in one or two years, it's going to be awesome. Well, that's the thing. That points out the fact when you don't see that many forkeys, you realize that, yeah, the fawn mortality was up. That was two years ago, wasn't it?

Well, I think two two back almost back to back we've had the almost comparable uh it's true we did not see a lot of no there are a lot of like walks that are like like doug durian says they're a lot of nice buck next years yes yeah um that was my one observation the second we don't do many um a lot of years we do none at all we don't do many, a lot of years we do none at all. We don't do many hunts to go out with outfitters. But man, it was real eye-opening. I realize that it's almost like a kind of, it's almost like a kind of vanity or something or like a kind of pride that uh would prevent one

partially to prevent one from wanting to go and like have someone else be really in the driver's seat you know um you get to like you're like i know how to do you know i know what i'm doing i'll do it by god i can do it myself uh and i kind of over the years developed that sentiment a little bit and there's another friend of ours jay scott who i've spent he's a guide and spend some time around him um and you learn a lot it was fun like it was really fun to be out with you guys and see um you have phenomenal game eyes i want to know if you have a good game eye in looking for those animals in that spot i'd love to see if you got a good game eye somewhere else i don't know yeah like if you were in michigan would you be spotting deer through a thick brush all the time would you be

like there's a deer ankle 20 yards away or um you know you guys have phenomenal game eyes and then just the stuff about the horses and i appreciate and hanging out with you guys that's why i would just so hardly recommend people that want to go do a hunt like this to hook up with you guys is um you uh you teach like you you guys teach without lecturing i don't know quite know how to put it but in a very like gracious friendly way of just wanting not wanting to like get people to do what you want to do but just wanting to get people to um have an experience have a positive one yeah like have an experience and come away a better person like you really shared a lot of information you shared a lot of information in a very cool way, like a really digestible, friendly way

without ever, yeah, without ever seeming like you guys look down on your clients or are annoyed by your guests, right? Or that you're like, you'd have got it done so fast if they weren't there kind of attitude. It was really fun.

I had a really, really great six days of hanging out with you guys. Well, it's like I told you guys up before we left, you know, it's fun to hunt with guys that are willing and game hunters to do what it takes to hunt in a fair chase style and know that there's always a chance. You might not find that dream buck that you imagined that you were going to see behind every tree.

I think Giannis and I talked earlier about the tough winter and that there was always that possibility. We hadn't really seen what, what we were going to experience, but it became apparent. And I, and I have to be honest, I was nervous knowing that you guys had, you know, eight, eight points. That's a lot of points, uh, taken and cashed in on those to come and hunt with us this year. Uh, maybe it'd be a disaster that we wouldn't see any deer that it was, it was going to be that tough, but, uh, you guys made it worthwhile to hunt with because you guys had good game eyes, which improves our ability of,

of saying, okay, we know the terrain you guys may may have seen that buck. Now we know a little bit how to get to that. Those are things that, to me, the experience of the hunter that comes and hunts with us is overall, whether it's in camp, whether it's on horseback, because the more you can enjoy the horseback ride, the more you'll enjoy the overall hunt because it's no fun if you're just, if you got, you know, puckered up butt in the saddle thinking. Stuff.

Just thinking, when's this ride going to be over? You know, I, to me, it just, I could empathize because I knew, I grew up on a horse and the first time I went with dad hunting as a 14-year-old boy, and we were traversing across a side hill that was slick and snowy, and my horse slipped, it just frightened me to death. And I thought, wow, I don't know if I've, it's not a very comfortable scenario.

Yeah, I did spend a lot of time wondering what it's like to have one of those things roll over on you. But you had it, it rolled over on you, you were all right. In the creek. Got to have one of those things roll over on you. But you had it. It rolled over on you. You were alright. In the creek. Gotta get out of the way. Seth, what do you got? You got a good concluder? Even a bad concluder. I don't care. I don't know if I'm quite a

horseman yet. No, you're allergic to horses, Seth. The whole time Seth's eyes are watering, his nose is running. It's like being out in a boat with Giannis. After this week, I respect horses in a way that I've never done before. I've always kind of just rode them off. Just because I'm always miserable when I'm around them.

Let's say you grew up on a farm, though. But you guys raised hogs and whatnot. We had horses, too, when I was younger. like i don't know i just never paid attention to them never drawn to them yeah never drawn to them um but watching landon and stewart do what they do with horses and and just like the overall experience this week um makes everybody want to be a cowboy doesn't it yeah oh yeah i yeah. I was like, riding out, being like, where would I keep a horse? Steve was like, you know what?

Maybe I'll keep one out of Matt's place. He's got room. Giannis, I asked you the same thing on the way out today. We were riding, I'm like,

so you think you'd ever get horses, right? Yeah. First, I think I'm just going to start with some chaps and a hat. I mentioned getting a horse and keeping it in Matt's and Giannis was like, oh, yeah, just let it go feral. And I'm like going to start with some chaps and a hat. I mentioned getting a horse and keeping it in mass.

And Janice was like, oh, yeah, just let it go feral. And I'm like, probably. That I'd get kicked in the head by it and sell it. But if you just wear the hat and the chaps, you'll be considered a drugstore cowboy until you've been through and had that hat banged up a few times and stepped on. Well, that's partly not true. Because Landon was saying that he wears his baseball cap out riding horses

and doesn't put his cowboy hat on until he goes to buy a horse. Or a cow. Yeah, or a cow. Those hats don't come cheap. These chaps that Stuart's got on are pretty nice here too. Stuart's still wearing his chaps And they're muddy too I don't know if that's horse poo or mud

Could be a little blood on there too But you know All of the stuff that we experience You realize through the years For us I was raised on a ranch I cowboyed a lot out on the range But most of my cowboying was done without a hat and with tennis

shoes because I had an image of a cowboy, you know, because of what I'd seen, some of the cowboy images I had weren't the kind of heroes that I, you know, there are a lot of great cowboys that I could probably call heroes, but back in my day of, of people that I observed weren't, weren't cowboy heroes, uh, and the dress didn't impress me. Oh, I got you.

You associated it with reality rather than the mythos. Exactly. And so, you know, it wasn't until I got out of high school that I, you know, really engaged in wearing the Wrangler pants all the time, found out they were comfortable, they wear good, and cowboy boots were comfortable. But I like a hat in the mountains because it is a, that brim sticks out and it becomes my, you know,

my test against pine boughs. If I feel a pine bough starting to hit my hat, I know to duck my head. Instead of a hat band, you leave your headlamp on there all day long. That too. I forget to put it in my pack because, I know, to duck my head. Instead of a hat band, you leave your headlamp on there all day long. That's true. I forget to put it in my pack because, you know, we're leaving in the dark and we're headed home in the dark.

And in a rainstorm, boy, those hats sure keep that rain from running down. That and the pine needles, they don't get down the back of your neck as easily. The snow, too. I have some epic photos of Stuart in a snowstorm. Just snow laying. Dry neck. snow laying on top of his hat i can't wait to get home and edit those photos up yeah what do you got oh man we had tyler and i got to ride a buck and blondie who are attached at the hip figuratively. And we got our horsemanship merit badge, I felt, at least an honorary horsemanship merit badge the day that you guys left us hunting in that zone to go where you guys found your buck.

You remember that? Mm-hmm. And so we got, well, we knew on radios at some point in the day, but then we got there and there was a little note in my gun scavenger that said. Oh, that's where it was? Yeah. Oh.

Yeah, because that's where I was going to probably go to first. But you had to notice there was a lot less horses than when you were there. Yes. Yeah. But it said, we've gone up the mountain, and you boys get back after dark on your own, and let us know what you're up to, Landon. And it was, so we knew we had to ride by ourselves.

So we left a little bit earlier than I probably would have if Landon was there. We had maybe 30 minutes of light left. And it was snowing a little bit. It was quiet like it is after a fresh snow and just you know only two horses and just we didn't talk and there was no headlamps and we kind of rode and it just darkness slowly fell i mean that's why you call it magic mountain i mean just like an amazing like people would pay pay $10,000 to experience that. You know, it was probably on the way in, I think it took us two hours. I bet you we got back to camp in just over an hour because when they go back to camp,

they're using third gear, not first. Yeah, they know they're headed back, man. But man, was it cool. In the darkness, well, again, fresh snow and maybe a touch of moonlight coming through. Did you guys take that same route out of there? Yeah. Oh, you did? We were coming around.

I think we still had the lake near us. We were on a pretty open hillside, and we were kind of coming out of the timber. And maybe only 15, 20 yards away, there's a small cow elk standing on the trail facing us. And the horse didn't see her quite as soon as I did. She took like three more steps and then stopped. And they just kind of had to stare off.

And finally, the cow elk spooked. After that, Blondie was not taking the lead anymore. I had been in the lead. And she went up the hill and then just stood there and looked over her shoulder. And Buck had to take the lead after that. Yeah. But yeah, it was a special evening, special ride out. So yeah, man.

I mean, like you were saying, what a special experience. I think it's an iconic hunt to go into the mountains 10 miles on horseback, hunt off a horseback and you read about it people write novels you know you know many hunting magazines have stories of them in every fall about the adventure we just did you know and if you want to do one with some capable and trustworthy outfitters that have their program tight these guys be the ones that do it with yeah i agree steve can i say a couple words appreciate that you're next am i okay i'm not part of the media crew so i didn't oh no no my concluders are yeah everybody gets it's gratis man go ahead i felt like you know

when somebody invites you to their home and you know the shoes come off and you're just you're comfortable and maybe you're commenting on the taxidermy on the wall. You go into the garage and see what they have and you just, you feel like they just open up to you. That's how I felt, I think, with Stuart and Landon. It was like, especially for Stuart because of all the years and even Landon since going up there since you were four, is, I mean, every tree, I mean, we even commented on the way out today on the horses, how we went in there and we'd looked on, you know, the computer, different things, you know, Onyx and Google, you know, Earth or whatever. But we went in and came out, felt like we knew that so much better after a week. Imagine 30 years or, you know, 20 years or whatever it is to see it. And I felt

like we got a view kind of into their living room you know of them well the night we got here you remember the restaurant was closed and we literally got a view in the living yeah we got here after 9 p.m they made us pancakes with in in both their wives were there yeah pancakes and bacon all those things but then to go up there too i felt like it was such this they have this pride in all those rocks and the you know the you know the crooked sky and all those different things and that i felt like they had this like they just opened it up and and i think it was an honor for us to be able to be brought into something that was so special for them it was an honor for me anyway yeah okay you guys get to do yours but one of you i i hate to tell

what a man what his concluder needs to be but you should tell people how to come find you, the best way to come find you, and what you offer, what kind of hunts you guys do. Well, obviously, I'll guess go on the beginning of that. We have an Instagram page. We have a Facebook page. We've got a website up that we'd invite you to go check out. We are a little bit lacking in some of that stuff, but we're trying to make it better.

But we would encourage that. We do like to talk with people on the phone so we can be very upfront and direct and tell them kind of what we got. So, you know, emails work. We don't mind correspondence through emails. We'd encourage that. But, you know, give us a call. We're not afraid to spend time talking with you, talking, you know, and if you got a buck tag that you've been putting in for, you know, eight years, you know, we're going to be honest with you if we feel like it's going to be a good year. But an elk, a guy could come hunt elk on two, two to three points, two to three points.

And we saw a lot of those. I'm going to interrupt and just mention, if you had two or three points right now for Wyoming, I'd really recommend coming. We saw the elk numbers are strong. There are some places, yeah. I got a boatload of elk points, but I know. It was pretty cool. Pretty cool. we saw some really neat bulls you

know the one bull we got on video it was 350 plus i mean there's some really good genetics there our age group of our bulls is where they need to be our bull the cow ratio is really high um but you know that's the thing that you know an outfitter, we hope to be able to provide an expert opinion for people to be able to spend their money as best as possible. You know, so if they come and hunt with us, they know that their best interest is going to be held within us to say, hey, you know, this year's a good year. We're going to do everything we can to get you. Because we know, you know, money doesn't always come easy for people as it hasn't for us growing up. And so that's one of the things we want people to feel confident in is that money is really not our motive. And so the way we manage the area, we try to not overhunt it.

We try to be very good stewards of the area that we hunt to give people a good experience. And that's ultimately what we try to pursue as an outfitter. And I guess that's what you could say we live by. Money does not drive what we do. It's the love of giving people the opportunity, the experience to fulfill dreams that they've had. Yeah. You guys were very clear with us about what, uh, what to expect and what you'd seen. And it was nothing but pleasant surprises, man. Well, we appreciated what hunting with you guys. I think that was one of the things

that was most impressive to me was, you know, obviously you guys know how to glass, you guys know how to hunt. That was very apparent, but it's the way you interact and the way you treat people. You know, we, we felt, you know, very much, um, at ease with you guys. And so, you know, I had a lot of people ask, you know, what was it like to hunt with them? What was it like, what are they like as people? You know, obviously people portray a certain way when they're on the video, you know, what are they like in person? And, and I never felt from a single one of the crew, any kind of look down upon because of your status, you know, because of where you are at, um,

in your life and what your, your social status is. We never felt that from any of you guys. And so we appreciate it being able to hunt with you. It was a great experience that we learned, you know, things as we watched and observed how you hunted and how you went about things. You know, the little butt pad, I think we're going to take that and adopt that.

I mean, it's one of those things. Well, if you guys can find half of a ridge rest. You guys can buy a whole one and split it. If you get half a ridge rest, you'll each have two butt pads. Well, that's what we want because, I mean, those pine boughs, they only work for so long. So that was one thing we watched. You know, we do spend a lot of time on our butts glassing.

And that was something we saw from you guys that thought, you know, that's probably a worthwhile thing to do. In the snow especially. Yes. And this time of year, you never know what the weather's going to be like. And mine doubles as a napping pad. That's right. That's right.

Stuart, do you have any final observations? Well, any kind of thing. It doesn't matter. Well, for me, it was just a fun experience with you guys that like to hunt, enjoy the outdoors. I find more pleasure and I find that my friendship is kindled quicker with people that appreciate that like I love it and appreciate it. I never felt like at any point was the hunting area overrun by the thought of I can throw my trash or my sacks like anything because i've and i've made it clear with hunters in the past that and maybe it was the older generation because i had

to get after my own dad to do that to uh you're saying people would like to put their like a little sandwich bag under a rock put their sandwich bag or their it might back in in the early days when my dad guided, they used to put out a little can of, I don't know, some of these little cans of juice. And I remember hearing some of that generation say, well, it's just a monument to what, you know, the people have sat down on this mountain before. And I mean, I don't want that kind of monument. I want it to be pristine because I often find myself thinking about when i'm on top of a ridge looking across the expanse of the

mountain range you know ahead what it may have been like as a as a early explorer of that country laying eyes for the first time uh on that land i think about it often. Yeah. And it causes me to be a little bit nostalgic in my thought process. And so people that respect and have an enjoyment, I have a, you know, my friendship is kindled right away in my interest in your own lives. And lastly is that, and I've said this to Landon many times, and I learned this a lot from my uncle, he said, we want to do good in the world. And I think if we can do good in the world by showing people the beauties that God created for man to enjoy, which we did, I think that to me is one of the greatest fulfillments of what I get out of it. My wife says,

why do you like it so much? It's so hard. Late nights and early mornings, it's cold, it's stormy. And I said, it's hard to explain. But when I share a view of a beautiful scene up on a mountain under a horse, or not under the horse, hopefully we're on top of the horse, but on top of a horse, a good horse, and you're just saying, man, wow, look at that landscape, or look at that big bull, a beautiful big bull,

or the sunset, all of that stuff, for me to enjoy that with another person that enjoys that, it's like we were kindred spirits. We must have liked the same things before we ever landed on Earth so that we would have this opportunity to cross paths and enjoy it again. Because to me, that's what it's all about, is enjoying what's before us. I guess early on, as know, as a, as an outfitter and as a guide, uh, it was tough

for me to, to not get an animal, you know, cause my first several years I never missed. I, I was sure I was going to get my game. As soon as I started guiding that quit, uh, I've probably in, in 30 years, I've probably only killed maybe four or five animals. Oh, really? Yeah. I've never asked you about last or five animals. Oh, really? Yeah.

I've never asked you about the last time you elk on it. You said it was about a decade ago or something like that. It's just one of those things that now the fulfillment is being able to share what I know to hopefully be successful in getting somebody an opportunity to fulfill a dream, to experience something that becomes a memory burned deep in their insides that says, hey, that was worth doing. One thing that illustrates your guys' capacity for reverence that I thought was quite impressive was what you went through to be able to go to church

with your families on sunday to hunt all day and then after dark strike off on horseback to ride seven miles seven miles and then drive i don't know how many how long got home at 3 a.m yeah to go to church with your families then come riding back up into the mountains well you know we we... A lot of people don't want to go a mile down the road, man. You know, years ago, we established the policy that we'd try to rest our horses and our guides as much on a Sunday just to help revive them,

help them to stay in good spirits. And we've even found that hunters that have come with us may initially think, I'm not sure I want to be able to hunt on Sunday. When they've had that break, say their hunt takes a Sunday in the middle of their hunt, they're thinking, we're grateful to heal up a few saddle sores. And it just revives them physically, and then they're ready for another day. But the reality of it is that we feel like that Heavenly Father's been really good to us.

We've had very few incidents with people being injured on a mountain, and I think it's because we try hard to reverence that day for us and the back country and the animals. And so, yeah, it sometimes seems like a sacrifice, but it's always been a wonderful blessing to be able to get out and refocus on some things that really are most important, and that's the family. And even if it's only for half a dozen hours and then back in to something that we're ready to be geared up and do it again.

So it's a fun thing. Oh, yeah. I didn't find it any kind of annoyance. I thought it was admirable. Well, we appreciate that. Those are things to us that mean a lot to us. And as I sensed as we've talked with you guys on the mountain, which is a fun thing about how your families, the family is where the lasting happiness really will come

over and above any of the other stuff that we may achieve in life. Yeah. No, it's good. You guys pull some long days. And it is. You come out. I guess sometimes you guys pull you guys pull 20 hour days they're they'll end up with 20 hours and you you know you you come down a

little jaded you lose a little weight but it doesn't take you long to put that weight back on you know when you get home but let me also comment though because we're saying all these things that when stewart and i did go to recover my buck he did put a rifle in his scabbard. And I said, oh, Stuart, what are you doing? He said, well, you never know if we're going to jump a big old buck up there. I said, wait, aren't we going to go tell Steven Yardas? And he just kind of gives me this smirk. So he still got it in him.

I still got the disorder. He said, I got a tag. Yeah, that's good. Well, guys, thanks so much for taking us out. Thanks for coming on the show. I know you put in a very long week this week so i'm glad you could come join us on the show but i was i was very excited to kind of share some of your uh perspectives and the details of your business with with our listeners i know quite often people um you know who don't have a lot of experience will ask like what would be a good way to kind of dip my toes into this whole thing and you know it's it's nice to have found um not just you but

some other people too uh guides we know that where you'd be like that would be a worthwhile uh that'd be a worthwhile adventure to go on is to hook up with you guys on a trip so i encourage people to come find you we We appreciate that. That means a lot coming from guys that know how to hunt. And it's fun, like say Lance, it's fun to hunt with guys that like to hunt and know how to hunt. Yeah. It really does. We learn from you, like say the butt pad idea.

We call man a debt. In fact, coming back, was it, what night was it? It was Sunday night. It was fact, coming back, was it, what night was it? It was Sunday night. It was Sunday night, coming back in. I'd seen a little pad, a sleeping pad, that fell off somebody's back, probably during the archery hunt. And I've ridden past it a time or two,

you know, several times, thinking, huh. But after seeing what you guys did, I thought, I told Landon, I says, hey, pick that up, we'll cut that up, and we'll use that in our packs. All right. Last but not least, if you had to rate our group as horsemen, on a scale of 1 to 10, not individually,

because I don't want you to point out one guy that really sucked on a horse. Yeah. And don't count the fact it took me four days to figure out how to tie a quick release knot. Rate you as a group? You can be honest. One to ten? Yeah. I would say that you started out at probably

in the three to four range. That's a pretty good place to start. And I think by the end, I think you'd gain probably another three to four points. That's gracious pretty good place to start. And I think by the end, I think you'd gain probably another three to four points. All right. That's gracious. I mean, I did. You know, obviously, you got used to the horse that you were riding.

You were comfortable. And I thought it would be fun if you switched it up because the more horses, different personality horses ride, the better you become. Oh, yep. Instead of being used to the same, how the horse behaves. A true horseman becomes adaptable to the type of horse he's riding at that time. But did you guys be honest? When you guys went into your bunk at night, did you guys goof on Seth a little bit? I didn't get to see Seth too much. I did talk a little bit about Mike's ability to control his horse,

because if it decided it wanted to go off-trail, it was going off-trail. A lot of it had to do with the fact that he didn't have a hold of the reins other than way up on the ends, which has no control. So he was on autopilot. Yeah. That was fun. It was great. That was fun. It was great. That was an awesome,

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