The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 271: Woof

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Steven Rinella talks with Ronnie Boehme, Clay Newcomb, Brody Henderson, Phil Taylor, Corinne Schneider, Hayden Sammak, and Janis Putelis.Topics discussed: Infanticide among house cats; Ronnie as Steve's most impactful employer; Clay Newcomb's new Bear Grease podcast; your pistol getting you in trouble with the TSA; Tiddlywinks and meat raffles; "Mingus" by Trampled by Turtles; Clay's big apology about fox hunting; blood tracking dogs and recovery statistics; coons and dogs duking it out in barrels; Ronnie's The Hunting Dog Podcast and his pick for the most versatile hunting dog; the choreography of the flushing dog and the pointing dog; the calming touch; when Ron's bracco Italiano embarrassed the hell out of him; The Upland Institute project; is Jani stingy with his likes on Instagram?; how to measure being hard on your kids; and more.Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Go farther, stay longer. Okay, right up top, if you hate dogs, quit listening. That almost makes me have to quit listening, but I don't, like, I'm conflicted. I'm going to stick it out because maybe this will, like, even though I own one, yeah, it's complicated for me. If you love it, let me put a positive spin on it. If you love dogs, if you love our furry friends, stick around. That's a better way to put it.

I was going to say, if you actually hate dogs, then just F you. Don't hate them. But my brother the other day was asking me. He was disappointed to hear. We were kind of talking about if everyone in your family, I don't want to use the word died, but went away. I was saying, if everyone in my family went away, I would go get rid of this dog. Our dog. I'd find

someone that wanted a dog. Why? He just felt that was the most cutthroat, cold-blooded thing he'd ever heard. Yeah, I've heard that story through the grapevine and I've personally retold that story at least three or four times. You too, Ron? Yeah, I've told that story. Sort of like explaining who Steven Ronell is.

Yeah, what's your problem with dogs? You're just like, extra work, extra baggage. I'm gone a lot. I'm gone a lot. And it's just another thing I got to think about. Yeah, but your kids and your wife. But in this situation, they've gone to heaven. I don't want to think of something bad happening to them.

We're talking about the situation in which I now have to take care of the dog by myself and always be gaming out what I'm going to do with the thing when I'm gone. I think that's sad because you're going to need a friend if they're gone. Well, you'd still be here. I think you'd have a different relationship with your dog if it was a working dog, Steve. You know, if it was a dog that was doing stuff for you. It changes the whole dynamic.

Clay, listen. I almost just said to you I've had way more dogs than you'll ever have, but that's not true. But for most people in this room, I've had way more dogs than you will ever have. Okay? Way more than you will ever have. You as an adult have had way more dogs? No, as a kid. We had a new dog every two weeks.

That doesn't count. We always had. Yeah, but that doesn't count. My old man went to the dog. You have to get one from a puppy, let it grow up and die, and go to the vet and euthanize it. That's owning a dog.

Listen, we had a dog one time. Here's how this dog came into our life. My old man was driving down the road to go rabbit hunting and saw a beagle walking down the road and called the dog into his truck. And we had that dog for years. And then he gave it to our neighbor. Did you turn it into a rabbit dog?

It did rabbit hunt, but I don't think it ever got good. I think that's why he gave it to the neighbor. Another time he goes and gets a dog and it would get, it liked to play fetch. So it would take green tomatoes out of the garden. So my dad brings it to, like, he would bring things to like the farm, you know, like the euphemism kind of way to get rid of a dog. But this dog, he literally brought to his friend's farm 11 miles away. A couple of days later, we're eating dinner and I look out the window and here comes this dog named kayla here comes this dog streaking past the window carrying a green tomato in his mouth that's some bitch had found our house and then it went like to the farm that was that there's

just never whatever he brought it didn't come back oh he was ruthless with dogs. He had a cat mawed that had babies in his shoe and then ate the babies out of his shoe. Yeah. Think about that, Corinne. Did he wear the shoes again? Don't know. Don't know. I was very young. But then he had another cat that he tamed

named Fig the Cat. I told the story because then he took it to a pig farmer to try to castrate it, and the cat fought him off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. A lot of dogs. Steve, who all do we have joining us this morning for this lovely podcast? Why, we have Ronnie Bame. Not my first employer, but my most impactful employer that I ever had.

Thank you, Steve. Learned more from Ronnie. I still use Ronnie's tools that I stole from him all those years ago. I especially like my tools that say Ronnie on them. So you posted a picture of making a birdhouse with Jimmy with a pair of yellow tin snips. Yeah, with your name on it. And then I spread it open on my phone and I could see Ronnie on it. You didn't care. No. I have your drift pin that I stole from open on my phone and I could see Ronnie on it. Oh yeah. You had no, you didn't care.

No, I have your drift pin that I stole from you. I have tin snips I stole from you. I think I have one of your tape measures. Yeah, stuff's great. Great quality tools. Yeah. All these years later. I didn't get no Christmas bonus.

I'm taking these tin snips. They never got a Christmas bonus. No, you paid us really well. Yeah, we tried to take care of you. No, it was like, in terms of, when I worked for Ronnieon i remember one time um i remember one time being in college and had spring break and then i played a week of hooky so i took my spring break played a week of hooky and you sent us out of town to do a job yeah and we and we worked 80 hours a week down there it was some crazy, and it was like they had to get something done during shutdown or something like that.

Yeah. I remember coming back from that, and I didn't do shit for months. You had money. Yeah. I was just like, oh, I'm set. Do you remember that time I sent you and Danny to go pick up a welder? Yeah. I think we can tell this story now.

I think we can. Okay. We're going to tell the story real quick. We did a job for a guy from west virginia i i can't remember what state he was from but he was doing a job in like they were out of west virginia there are millwrights out of west virginia right and they contacted me for a support crew because they were behind right i think they were doing a job for amway is that too much yeah it was amway no amway okay they were doing a job for amway they called into calvary they they were fell behind in schedule, so they brought in TLI, Ronnie's company.

Mm-hmm. Then, somehow, he got into a situation where he couldn't pay Ronnie. So, Ronnie has us come into the office. We always had to be there at 6, which is hard because I used to drink. But he has us come in earlier one day, me and my brother Danny. Mm-hmm. And he says, here's what you got to do today. the toyota you're gonna take this truck down there and he owed you four grand yeah something yeah and you're gonna take the welder his welder and you're gonna bring it back here

to this shop right but you had to go in early you know go in early before anybody showed up and it'll just look like one of the crew once you had a hard hat on nobody you could walk in and out of that building all day big generator welder yeah i still got it so so we drove down there in a truck hooked up the hooked up the welder to the truck drove the truck home put it in ronnie's barn and then ronnie let us take eight hours pay always always a fair and equal opportunity ployer yes and the guy later called you, right? I think so. He said something like, I think we're even or whatever. He put it together. And Giannis. Morning.

Another dog man. Gianni, if you're so insistent on the intros, I feel like you'd be a little more, you know, like I'm like, and Giannis, and you just sit there anyway. But that's all it takes is for you to say who's here, name i mean i don't and i feel like i'm a regular enough guest that people like know roughly who i am what i'm doing here but ronnie

maybe would you know deserve a little bit more introduction this morning you want me to throw some more on there ronnie's the host of the hunting dog podcast the first hunting dog podcast ever and he's been on the Meat Eater Show a couple times. A couple times. Been on this podcast a bunch of times. Four times I've been on your show. And pioneered having a hunting dog podcast podcast. I did.

I did. I was even on the Wild Within with you. Yeah. Way back in the day. Way back. Long show business career. Phil's here. Phil, I can't see you do that.

Phil looks way younger than his voice. Way younger. Oh, thanks, Rob. That's not true because they did a contest where you had to draw Phil based on his voice only and people drew a young man. Did they? No one drew an old man. Oh, I would have went 40 years old easy. Yeah. A very scrawny looking nerd with a lot of

with a very wimpy facial hair situation, which is true. That's the true part. Yeah. I had to shave halfway through the day yesterday. I'm jealous. Well, you know what's interesting about that, like shaving halfway through the day? My wife doesn't like my kids to put the same clothes on

that they had on the day before, but I always wear my clothes multiple days in a row. And I was pointing out that, let's say the earth spun slower than it spins. And it took the earth 48 hours to rotate. Would everybody go home midday and change their clothes? No, because no,

they would run. They would run those clothes twice as long without changing them. So to wear your clothes twice, there's no way it'd be like noon and everybody's like, well, I got, you know, I got to run home and change because I've had these clothes on for X hours. Do you know what I'm saying? I do, but nighttime, just a natural reset point. It just makes sense.

Well, I reset, I take them all off. I throw them down on the ground next to my bed. I wake up and put them all back on again.. I wake up and put them all back on again. Sometimes I wake up, put them all back on again, take them off, take a shower, put them back on again, and then come to work. That'd be some long ass. Kids are generally just more sticky and dirty in general, I think. I mean, I've been wearing this.

I haven't washed this pair of jeans in, I don't know, a couple of weeks now. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. It's got sticky bun residue all over it. Yeah. If your kids wore those jeans, you're right. They'd be trashed. Exactly.

Well, there'd be, I hate to say it, but there'd be some kind of poop on them. How old are your kids? Until a certain age. I've got a two-year-old. So that, yeah, that's true. But then I've got an eight-year-old. The poop problem with the eight-year-old is pretty much gone. Yeah.

They wrap it up after a while. But you know what's funny is, another thing I was telling my kids, like, you know, they're in that phase of like poop stuff's funny, right? Oh, yeah. People poop in their pants. It's funny. It's embarrassing. But I was like, you people are the people most inclined to have encounters with poop.

I think you guys would be very accepting of it. It's like a real part of your- It's just a part of life. Yeah, like a couple years ago, it was a daily part of your life to have it on you. But now you act like it's so disgusting and funny you like you're it's a little too close for you to be dogging on it's true like wait go 10 years without having an accident then come tell me how funny it is um clay newcomb newcomb safe clay how's your new show going man it's going good i know you don't ride in elevators ever but can you give me an elevator pitch for your show yeah it's called the bear

grease podcast and it's a documentary style narrative storytelling podcast where we cover all types of stuff so it's it's hunting but it's also rural culture a lot of a lot of fun stuff man what was the first episode tell everybody myth of the southern mountain lion so on that it's it's a it's an efficient listen as we say it's it's always going to be under an hour. And we interviewed two eyewitness sightings, people that have seen mountain lions in the south. We interviewed a large carnivore biologist, so we got the real data of whether they're here or not. We interviewed a psychologist about why people see things

when they really don't. And it was fun. It's a lot of fun man um hayden sammick how do you pronounce your last name uh sammick i was right yeah you got okay you never been on the show before i have not man you work here though i do tell people what you do i am he fiddles with phil's buttons yeah yeah uh he fiddles phil's knobs up literally not figuratively see where it goes yeah i uh i edit sound and do audio engineering stuff yeah i get to do all sorts of auxiliary uh auxiliary stuff and you tickle the ivories a little bit yourself. Oh, sure do.

Yeah, you bet. What's the fun fact about your last name? Oh, it means fisherman in Syrian. Bullshit. Really? Semeq is fish in Arabic. Yeah. But you're not Syrian. I am Syrian.

Talk out the Syrian last name. You're Syrian? You're Syrian? but you're not syrian i am syrian so i got the syrian last name you're syrian you're syrian yeah are you really yeah you didn't just pick that name because you like to fish no one picks their own name i would have picked some more people do pick their names yeah yeah the uh syrian walk me through can you quickly walk me through your lineage, how it worked, why y'all are in America? Oh, hell. I just know that my great-grandfather was at least half Syrian. I don't know if he was full Syrian or not. No.

But it comes from my dad's side. Okay. And yeah. Syrian name. Say it again. Samick. I mean, I'm sure i've americanized the hell out of it at this point yeah i don't know if there's like some sort of yeah i have a article

um that was my dad's stuff it's about his uncle being shot and killed by a cop i remember the cop's name was philip to me but um my dad's uncle who my dad knew um his name was spelled completely differently than mine yeah my dad said oh yeah there's a split some of them were i on the end and then some of them went a on the end and you just kind of chose which you sort of chose which version you wanted back in those days you know yeah uh corinne is here of course have you heard from yet corinne aside from asking hayden about his last name, nope. Yeah, you guys are tearing it up. Makes me glad to be doing these intros.

And then Brody, I bet, watch how zippy Brody will say something now. What do you want me to say? Yeah, there you go. Okay, now if you listened to our recent episode with Dr. David Meltzer, dogs domesticated 12,000 years ago. Our first domesticated animal by a long shot. With genetics, it's become, you know, people spend a lot of time thinking about it because it's we're able to answer long-standing questions we've had about how this came to be but we got around the dogs way before we got around the cattle sheep horses pigs been our buddies for a long long time what's funny here is how

many people like didn't only recently got a dog you were only recently got a dog or did you have a bunch before oh yeah this i mean you've always had a dog yeah yanni mingus is my first as an adult dog phil uh i've got a dog i never had a dog as a kid but my wife didn't she talked me into getting one uh after we got married. So I've had her for four years now-ish. Okay. Point being, real experts here. Oh, yeah.

Top grade. Corinne's got a whopper of a dog. Oh, yeah. Corinne's got a... You never had a dog before. No, I grew up in the city and my parents never allowed... Yeah, I would go bring them into pet stores asked to hold on to a dog and then start crying and trying to manipulate them but they never fell for it so this is your first ever

dog my first my first actual dog yep like a 400 pound dog uh a couple couple corrections real quick or one major correction and i feel like i'm right this guy is the guy that wrote in is pissed and he deserves to be pissed we had a thing about so hard to explain now who can explain this i mean i explained it once but i got sick of explaining it even then normally when you buy a fishing license um normally to buy a fishing license the license fee goes to the state's fishing game agency so you go down and you buy a fishing license that winds up being dedicated funding for fish and wildlife management it is it's not like when you pay your taxes and they just do it you know your tax is going to a general fund and the state does whatever the whatever it does with it right it's not like you can pick i'd like my taxes to go to uh infrastructure reform you know it just goes into a general fund and they do their deal

fishing licenses are different because they're agency specific so you you buy a license it funds to infrastructure reform. You know, it just goes into a general fund and they do their deal. Fish and licenses are different because they're agency specific. So you buy a license, it funds the agency. And then there's mechanisms in place that make the states, that de-incentivize states from robbing that general fund. I'm sorry, from robbing

that specific fish and game fund. We had a guy write in and saying that Massachusetts never used to require a saltwater license. They require a saltwater license now. And he was telling us how that saltwater license fee goes to the general fund where it can be diverted into all kinds of BS and doesn't stay specific.

Gloucester. Everybody told me I said that wrong. Another guy wrote in and said that guy is, quote, completely incorrect. Explain, Corinne. So guy number one from Gloucester. Gloucester, we'll call him Gloucester one. And then there's Gloucester two. Gloucester two says that, in fact, all the money collected from saltwater licenses go into a dedicated fund and that a third of the money collected must go to improving public access.

He goes on to say, it would have taken you less than one minute to look up and fact check this issue before broadcasting false information on your podcast. Salty. Then he says he's a frequent listener, but he's right. He's right. I don't know why. And when I was reading it in the back of my head was like, we should probably look into this.

Corinne points out that she's checked it and had someone else check it and timed those people. And it took those people longer than a minute to check it. But not too much longer. So the guy's right. So if he had said it would have taken you not much longer than a minute, he'd have been correct. The one thing, though, I called the Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries and I'm waiting for a call back because I couldn't find where they stated that one third of the money must go to fishing access.

Yeah. So I don't want to put that bit of unchecked information across to all of our podcast listeners just yet. When the guy, when Gloucester One called his state tax-a-chusets, which is fine. Yeah. I should have been like, I detect a bias. I detect a blind spot.

Friend of mine, this is something for Ronnie here. His specialty is dogs, but he has a minor. His major is dogs, but he has a minor getting in trouble with the TSA. A guy wrote in, a friend of mine, I don't want to say his name. He recently got caught by TSA. He didn't mean to be doing this, but he had an unloaded.38 pistol in his carry-on. I feel his pain. A thousand bucks.

Got his gun back, Ronnie. I lost mine. Yeah. Tell everybody what happened to you. This is a warning tale. Yeah. Well, I had some, I'll try to do it. Not like my mom.

I'll try to do a short version, but I had inadvertently taken the 22 revolver and stuck it into my dry bag and I was going out to Utah real quick. What does that mean? Inadvertently. Well, it was like, I had to move it somewhere. There was somebody coming to my kennel.

I just didn't want a pistol laying there. So I just kind of like slam dunked it up into a shelf. Well, I actually threw it into my dry bag. Because you thought they'd see the pistol and be alarmed. Well, yeah. I mean, they were coming over to look at dogs, you know, and like, why has this guy got a pistol laying out on the counter? So anyway, I looked at the weather report before my flight. I saw that it was going to be raining and

judging in the rain sucks. So I grabbed all my gear. Judging dogs. Yeah. And I grab all my rain gear and I stick it in that bag without checking that bag. So now that bag. Oh, that's how it happened.

That bag has got a loaded 22 pistol with a six inch barrel on it. And it's a large, it almost looks like a Colt Python. It almost, it's huge gun,. And it's a large, it almost looks like a Colt Python. It almost, it's huge gun, even though it's a 22. And I had my first time I got that pre-check where you don't have to take your shoes off and I was feeling all kind of smarvy.

So slick. I was like, look at me, I got my shoes on. And my pistol. And I'm kind of leaning on that conveyor, you know, and I'm kind of judging the conveyor like, oh, that's pretty good rollers on this conveyor. Line's kind of building up behind me. And then the guy looking up at the screen, he turns the screen so I can see it.

He goes, is this your bag? I look up there and I can see everything but the serial number on that gun. And I know, I'm like, I even told the guy, I said, I said, yes, and it's loaded. Because I'm like, I better just get it clear here. Come out with it now. And he says, well, stay right there. And they diverted the rest of the line. You know, they had the people who didn't have to take their shoes off had to go on the other line.

They weren't happy with me. A little salty. And I was probably at that little conveyor stand there where you get your stuff back. For 10 minutes, all three different people came up and questioned me. Did they cuff you and stuff? Right there. Right. Once, like the third person said, have you, did you do this?

Did you blah, blah, blah. They just had this bunch of answers. Like if you, you know, it's like getting those COVID questions nowadays. It's like three questions they ask you. And she said, okay, well, we're going to take you to the. I don't know. What do you mean? What kind of questions? Like like have you had suicidal thoughts oh i got you did you have a are you suffering from any family blah blah do you have anything against the airline

all the same three questions it was a weird i can't i need i need to interject something you make me think of i can't let it go unsaid we uh maybe took our kids down in the emergency room too often and one day they um they're like what are the strengths and weaknesses of your marriage i was like oh my god really is this where this is at right now oh yeah that i that's the one thing that i hate because we've had to take our kids to the emergency room a couple of times and they they give you like a little scan they look at both of the parents they They ask the kids very straightforward questions. It's like nerve wracking. Oh, you want to get mad.

Oh, yeah. You're just playing into their hands. You want to be like, dude, mind your own business. Yeah. But they're like, but if I say that, then I probably get handcuffed or something. It's like a three-year-old kid and they're asking me, so how exactly did, so what happened? Explain to me what happened. It's a three-year-old.

He can't do that. They separated us to tell the? Explain to me what happened. It's a three-year-old. He can't do that. They separated us to tell the story. Yeah. Ugh. Awful. It's the worst feeling. They didn't separate me. They just, one after the other came up and asked me the same three questions.

And then the late, there was a lady police officer that worked at the Grand Rapids airport. They have their own little office. Remember that office you talked about on the subway, Steve, that you didn't know? Oh, when I got caught with a knife? Like, but you never know there's an office there. Yeah. It was just like that at the airport. It was like the secret door.

Boop. And there's this police department that I never knew existed inside the airport. Yeah. It always reminded me of that subway thing of you. So I go in the, you know, she puts handcuffs on me and I got to walk past everybody and we go out to this little, little place for

the police department is. Did they cuff you behind or in front of your back? Behind. Oh. Yeah. I. She started getting like weird itches.

He couldn't itch. No, I was just petrified. I could barely walk. I could barely walk. And they bring me into this back room and I'm sitting down. She un, she un-cuffs my cuffs, then handcuffs my left arm to the wall, like to a short handcuff to the wall.

And I'm sitting in a chair just like this. And, and then she'd get a piece of paper and I got to write a statement. And I'm like, well, I'm left-handed. So, so instead of like, I always sound like, well, you didn't think this through. Because all, they went and got like three other officers cuffs and made like a chain of cuffs instead of switching hands instead of switching hands instead of like okay uncuff them put his right arm on the table and let him right left no they went and got like three other give me your cuffs give me like a daisy chain of handcuffs daisy chain so now i'm writing down

what happened she's got my wallet she asked me what i was doing and i told her i was going to do a dog i was judging some dogs out in Utah. And then she said, what kind of dogs? And I told her bird dogs and her eyes lit up and I was like, Oh, I might, I might, I might have it here, you know, but I thought for sure, like my life was over. Cause if I had a, I assumed it was a felony

just because why wouldn't it be right. And turned out to be, I had a loose, I lost my gun. It was a misdemeanoranor but i did end up in jail they had to give me over to kent county police they took me to jail i had to sit in the drunk drunk tank for three hours until the sergeant came back to post but like the funniest part of the story would be my daughter dropped me off the airport because Kelsey worked right, right at 44th and Patterson and she dropped me off. And so two o'clock in the afternoon, I'm calling her up and she goes,

yeah, dad, what's up? And I said, I need you to come get me. She goes, well, you're either in Utah or you had a connector in Atlanta. Well, what's, what's going on? I go, no, I'm at the Kent County jail. I need you to come and get me. And she's just like, she's going on? I go, no, I'm at the Kent County Jail. I need you to come and get me. And she's just like, I'm like, hello? Is this Mike? Is this Mike hot? And she's, I'm like, Kelsey? She goes, I said, she goes, did you call mom?

I said, don't call mom. Don't call. Just come to the Kent County Jail. I got to get back to the airport and get my stuff. So that was a bad morning. But then you had a court date. I had a court date. And I never actually went in front of the airport and get my stuff. So that was a bad morning. But then you had a court date. I had a court date. And I never actually went in front of the judge.

My lawyer went in front of the, whatever the person that works with the judge. Yeah. And they did all their things. I sat out in the hallway both times I went to court. I don't know what they were talking about. See, I feel like I remember part of the story you not mentioned where you then said to your lawyer, like, what about the gun? He's like, forget about the gun. Well, yeah.

Once I realized I was getting a misdemeanor, I said, well, any chance I can get that gun back? That's like asking a doc if you don't have to take your heart medicine. Do I have to keep taking this? And you didn't pay much money. Not, you know. Not really. You know that story about when we had a jet-boiled canister, and what was our initial fine? The lawyers got it down. I think it was four.

And they got it reduced by half. A thousand. Yeah. So this guy, he paid half for a jet-boiled canister. He paid half for a pistol what you pay for a jet-boiled canister. But he had an unloaded one. I don't know if that matters, though. I don't know.

I don't know about severity. Oh, here's the other part that was funny. So I'm sitting in that room locked up against the wall. And as I walked into that room, there's this little, I'd call it almost like a closet. And there's a shooting sand trap. So you can discharge a firearm. Is that right? They're all ready for this stuff.

Apparently. And I see my pistol, like, in this, like, holder, right? And it's pointing into the sand. And I walk by, and I'm sitting down locked up. And I see a cop walk in there. Now, this was like, you know what a top break pistol is? The back peep sight comes up. It breaks open like a shotgun, right?

And this cop is in there, and he pokes his head around the corner. He goes, psst. I go, yeah. He goes, how do you open that thing? And I'm like, push up on the back rear sight. He goes back in there. About 30 seconds later, he goes, thanks. Because he didn't want to go to his sergeant and go like, I

got a gun and I don't know how to get the bullets out of it though. I don't know where the lever is. I got held up by the police in the Anchorage airport for shotgun shells. Oh, they took you away from the line and brought you. That happened to me there too. You gave me some and I forgot to take

them out of my bag. But they were, they knew. Yeah. It happens every day. I forgot to take them out of my bag. But they were, they knew. Yeah. It happens every day. They were, they were kind of like eye-rolly like, you dumbass. Now we got to go through all these things. We got to make paperwork. It's like, we got to do through all this.

And obviously what you're telling us is like, you went ptarmigan hunting, which is what I did and had like a bird shot. Right. And then their, their attitude was more that you've just cost us a, like a bunch of filling papers out. We were going to have a cigarette break and

now we have to take care of your dumb ass. Yeah. It was, it was no, there was no like serious questioning, you know? Okay. Question of legality from listener. It was about our quid pro, quid pro quo. After Ukraine, the Ukraine scandal, it's hard

to say quid pro quo because it got forever tied to the Ukraine scandal. It's hard to say quid pro quo because it got forever tied to the Ukraine scandal. Anyways, or not scandal. The scandal that wasn't a scandal. Anyways, we were talking about Sturgeon scandal. The Sturgeon scandal that occurred in, where are you, Ani? Wisconsin. Yes. Biologists are like taking, you know,

sturgeon roe caviar is very valuable and there's biologists that extract the roe and there's various, just crash course quick, Yanni, if you don't mind. Yeah, there was, they have check stations when these sturgeon come in, every sturgeon that's speared needs to be

checked and there was, there were some coolers that were at that check station that were specifically for eggs that were then going to processors. And then it looks as if maybe people that worked for the game and fish were then getting, uh, cured finished jars of caviar in return. And so you had this trade, you know, of goods for a finished product, which became illegal at the same time. There was also some folks that we,

uh, did some work with, um, Vic and, uh, Mary Lou that, uh, were similarly basically cleaning up eggs for people, curing them, and then giving them back to them, but also holding on to a small portion of it for themselves. So again, sort of getting paid by holding on to it, which you can't do, right? So I don't think we've seen what's going to come of it yet. I haven't heard any updates about that story, but anyways, folks got in trouble for bartering, trading, selling wild game.

Am I correct in saying though, that this is just something that went on there. It wasn't like they were trying to hide it. It was just something like that was kind of part of the culture there. Certainly with Vic and Mary Lou, It was very, very much like, I think they had been warned in the past and it was just sort of like, well, no, we're just helping out the community,

you know? Yeah. This wasn't a black market. No, no. Like caviar. Yeah. I remember when I first heard about it, I don't know why I've talked about this.

I first heard about it. I was like, oh yeah, he was selling eggs to the Russians, which gets your hackles up, you know? Yeah. So you start rolling the Russians into something. Russian mafia. Yeah. Then you're like, oh man, you know, you're picturing like guns and whatnot, but it wound up being those

the neighbors. Yeah. By the Russians, I meant his neighbors. I don't know. Guy wrote in about this though. Considering that you can't barter, trade, sell, wild game with some exceptions, which we'll not get into. He lays out this little conundrum he's in. They play, his town has a Tiddlywinks

tournament and a meat raffle. Now he says, you'll know what I'm talking about, but I don't know what either of those things are. They have a tiddlywinks tournament and a meat raffle in his town. I can speak to meat raffle, but not tiddlywinks tournament. You can Ron. Well, didn't you ever play tiddlywinks when you were a kid? No, I use it like, um, you know, sitting around, like, like if I was, if I caught Phil not working, he would be, I'd be like, Oh yeah. I'd be like, you spend the whole day whistling Dixie down there. You might say you can spend the whole day down there playing Tiddlywinks.

Tiddlywinks is an actual game with these little plastic dip saucers. And you push down on it and you flip them up and you make them move around the board. Tiddlywinks. Yeah. Somebody Google that. Don't we have a Jamie here? Steve's got a blank expression. No, I accept that it's a game. It's a Google that. Don't we have a Jamie here? Steve's got a blank expression. No, I accept that it's a game.

It's a real game. I know it's a game. I just don't know what it is. And I don't know how a town gets together to have a Tiddlywinks tournament and meat raffle. But COVID, this winds up being a COVID story. Okay. COVID causes a cancellation of the townwide Tiddlywinks tournament meat raffle. But him and some close friends decided to get together anyway and have a private Tiddlywinks tournament and a private meat raffle.

Tiddlywinks sounds worse every time you say it. So normally in one of these meat raffles, so normally everyone from the town, I'm going to get one of these going. everyone from the town goes to the butcher shop they all buy meat you bring them it's a great idea you bring the meat bag and put it on a table and then you sell raffle tickets draw raffle tickets brody's number comes up like i say oh i pulled the hat out uh number one bro he's like by god i'm number one so then brody goes up and he'll be like damn i'm taking the pork loin that's a meat raffle okay gotcha but since they had to do the small scale version and all of his buddies hunting fish

they all brought game dun dun dun wild game and then had a sturgeon and then had a thing so he brought down two pounds of smoked sturgeon and walked out with two pounds of venison loin should he anticipate being arrested that's a great question i hope we don't i hope our emails don't get subpoenaed so they can find out who he is did tiddlywinks. I'm reading the Wikipedia page on it right now. You wouldn't believe it. The small discs are called winks. There's a pot, which is the target,

and a collection of squidgers, which are also discs. To shoot a wink into flight by flicking the squidger across the top of a wink and then over its edge. That sounds like something out of Harry Potter or something. I was just gonna say that. It sounds like some stupid Harry Potter

stuff. This game has been was invented in 1888. They got it nailed. Yeah, and okay, I'm just going to finish with this. Tiddlywinks is sometimes considered a simple-minded, frivolous children's game rather than a strategic adult game. Wait for it.

However, the modern competitive adult game of Tiddlywinks made a strong comeback at the University of Cambridge in 1955. Modern game uses far more complex rules and a consistent set of high-grade equipment. So back in the day, if you had a child that wasn't academic, you'd just put him in the yard with a cup and some tiddlywigs. He would just kill some hours and you could get some laundry done. Yeah, and as long as he learns how to fold his raffle tickets right, he would have plenty of meat from the meat raffle. He'd be fine. A guy wrote in with a poem for Kevin Murphy.

Someone get ready to read the poem. I'll tee it up and then someone else has to read the for Kevin Murphy. Someone get ready to read the poem. I'll tee it up and then someone else has to read the poem. Corinne, you got to read the poem. Okay. I read it to my kids this morning. Okay, a listener had heard our episode with Kevin Murphy about trying to trail cottontail rabbits out in the desert with dogs from Kentucky. And we heard this from Jake Gribb, too. from Kentucky. Um, and how,

and we heard this from Jake Gribb too, kind of our, uh, one of our resident dog experts that a dog lives at a certain climate, certain humidity, certain foliage. It seems to become like accustomed to those things. And then it tracks and those things,

when you move them, like you take a dog from a wet place and move them to a desert, it just throws them out of whack. Takes a while. He's got to kind of relearn all of his tricks. What everything smells like and how everything goes. So this guy came up with a he calls it an aphorism, anecdote, colloquialism,

or whatever you choose to call it. Hit it, Corinne. This one's for you, Kevin Murphy. If on the morning breeze you can smell your dog's daily habit, it's a damn good day to go hunt a rabbit. I'll have to explain that to Ronnie. You can smell? No.

No one likes that poem. I can't wait till we get that dial in here to tell people, to tell what people think is good or not. I thought I'd crack. A laugh track? No. No. No, we're getting a machine. We're getting a machine where everybody in here has a dial.

They turn up and down to tell how interested they are. And it lights a light in the center of the table so people know when they're being boring. I would have cranked her. Another piece of feedback that came out of our rabbit conversation with Kevin Murphy is the guy wrote in about this interesting practice that takes place in the Lake Okeechobee region in the sugar cane fields. And we're right now kind of half watching some of these videos, and it's fascinating. He was saying that when they burn off the fields and then also

kind of like they're harvesting but also burning off the cane fields it's common practice for local kids to come out with a stick and a in a sack or like a pillowcase and to fill those pillowcases up with rabbits that they just chase after and whap with a stick just hit them like they're like you'd kill a fish and you watch this thing it's like just just it's like a tap almost and you kids run around handfuls of rabbits i have no idea on the legality of it like if they have a season method to take i don't know but it's uh but yeah you can go online and find these these kids around these rabbits so it's interesting. I like the local legend stuff. What's the local legend?

Well, the local legend is the best football players develop their skills as small children chasing rabbits. Because there's so many pro football players, collegiate football players that are good that come out of this small region of Florida where they grow sugar cane and have this practice. And you watch them run down the rabbits. It's athletic. Yeah, I can't.

I mean, I've seen plenty of rabbits run around and haven't really chased them, but I can imagine that I would not be able to run one down. No. I'm looking at an NFL film, official NFL films, 2017. Looks like Travis Benjamin and Janoris Jenkins. So Giants player and Chargers player.

It looks like they grew up doing this. Hunting sugarcane rabbits with a stick. Yeah, exactly. And then they're in the NFL. There you have it. If it was just one person, it could be a flute, but it's two. Clay, tell everybody about this raccoon dog. So a couple of weeks ago, or at least it came out a couple of weeks ago on social media,

there was a coon dog in Tennessee that got stuck 50 feet up in a tree and firefighters had to come rescue it. Do you buy that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You can watch the video. You can search for it. But, Steve, that's pretty common. climbing um there are in in all the hound world there are dogs that are exceptionally good climbers that find themselves in just advantageous situations for climbing a tree be it the tree is

leaning or be it the tree is a species that has really grabby bark where they can just climb and then some dogs are just incredible climbers and so now i've never seen a dog up that high and it's so the story was in tennessee that they had to call the fire department to come get this dog out of the tree what's unclear to me is this dog must have treed a coon pretty close to the road or you know somewhere where these guys could get to it and then the video shows them lowering the dog out of the tree on some kind of pulley system and they yeah so some a human had to go up there hook up the pulley system and then hook the dog to it and they they kind of used a it was pretty it's pretty good they it looked like a chest harness on the dog to it and they they kind of used a it was pretty it's pretty good they it looked

like a chest harness on the dog but it wasn't it was a rope that they tied themselves and then they lowered the dog down they didn't show that part so i don't know how they got up there to set all this up but i mean a dog climbing that high they do it all the time dogs get killed a good friend of mine brent reeves he and uh his buddy cars, just this last fall, had a dog get killed that fell out of a tree. But so it happens. Chasing a raccoon. Well, they're just treeing. They're not watching the raccoon go up the tree, but it's like, I have a dog, one of my dogs, Steve.

Jedi, you hunted with him he's a tree climbing dude man if there's a tree that has any kind of lean to it i mean he'll go up as high as he can what happens is they get up there and they can't come down then they fall and uh now do you worry about uh breaking them of it clay do you try to break them of it you just let them have at it you know i don't i don't know you know people might say you can break them of it but i i don't really know how you would do it i mean they're just so pumped up when they're they've treed this coon they're jumping on the tree and barking and so yeah it happens well because in in chasing lions it presents a whole nother problem oh yeah you get

the tree they're going to get in a skirmish and that's how we earlier we were talking about when dogs hounds get killed by lions it happens usually when a lion has not treed in like what you consider just a normal tree 20 feet up and a straight tree it's like a blow down or something and it just jumps onto a uh you know a trunk that's only five six feet off the ground you know it's being supported by the branches or whatever and then the dogs you know bay it for a minute off the ground but then the dogs quickly realize oh i can get on the end of that tree and run right up to that thing and the dogs have no nothing in their head says that that thing that I'm barking at can kill me. You know what I mean?

They're not thinking that. So they go right up to it and they want to get closer to it and bark at it and get them in trouble. So yeah, when, I know that when Jake's dogs start climbing and all, and it's pretty amazing, like not even like grabbing, like a cat would climb straight up the trunk. Like these dogs will actually go onto a limb, turn, It's pretty amazing. Not even grabbing, like a cat would climb straight up the trunk. These dogs will actually go onto a limb, turn, go to the next limb,

and turn, go to the next limb. Oh, yeah. And he does not like it at all. Because there's trouble waiting up there. There's consequences when they do it. Giannis, does he think that he can train them to not climb? Yeah. The guys that I was with in Washington, Bartorge and his crew uh they do it as well if the dogs start getting up on the uh tree they they

they punish them you could train them to do you train them to cut the tree you train dog do anything so getting them stay out of the tree with no problem. You just got to set up the situation. My comment on it is basically just like a lot of times at a tree, you're not there for a long time. It may take you a long time to get to the tree. So the dogs are there unattended, not under, you know, and just that desire is what's pushing them up the tree. Right. You know.

But you'd need that obedience set up in a yard situation, in a training situation. You'd have to simulate it as close as you could and correct the dog. But you'd need that obedience set up in a yard situation, in a training situation. You'd have to simulate it as close as you could and correct the dog. Because you're right, you'd never get there before the dog gets there. So, backyard training. Hey, folks. Exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes.

And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right.

We're always talking about uh we're always talking about on x here on the meat eater podcast now you um you guys in the great white north can can be part of it be part of the excitement you can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service that's a sweet function as part of your membership you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services hand-icked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meat on X maps.com slash meat.

Welcome to the, to the on X club. Y'all. Yanni's dog. You just talked about Mingus. Were you? Yeah. Um, long time ago, we had Dave Simonette from Trampled by Turtles on the show. Musician.

We were talking about how we needed a theme song for Mingus. Mingus has his own theme song now by Trampled by Turtles. Short and sweet ladies and gentlemen that was mingus by trampled by turtles clay uh talk about we're gonna use the we'll use that so much you'll all be sick of that uh clay do your big apology and explanation about how you messed everything up about fox hunting. Yeah, yeah. So we talked about, I was talking about the painting on the ceiling in my office.

And I have a painting of an English fox hunt. And I said that I put it up there because that scene no longer exists on the earth and it's a it's like the sistine chapel it's a painting overhead looking right yeah so all the other paintings and pictures in my office are on the walls like a normal one i put this one on the ceiling because my point was and what i tell people when they're in my office, is I say, do you see that scene? And it's this beautiful old painting of what I presume to be an English fox hunt. And I say, that no longer exists on the earth.

And probably in the heat of the moment on the podcast the other day, I probably said, that scene exists nowhere else on the face of the earth. You got emphatic. That would have been a mistake yeah yeah and so so we had some really good feedback come in some people that kind of set the record straight and also you know stand by my statement that that scene doesn't exist in that form. But Steve, here's just a quick rundown. So fox hunting became big in Europe in like the 1500s. Germany was one of the first countries in the 1930s that banned it.

In 2002, Scotland banned fox hunting with hounds. And then in 2005, England and Wales banned fox hunting with hounds and then in 2005 England and Wales banned fox hunting with hounds and it's a pretty complex situation a lot of it had to do with land related issues but it was primarily fueled by anti-hunting people just saying we don't like people chasing foxes with dogs so in those places though and i guess this is where the clarity comes they still have simulated fox hunts with scent which as a as a american houndsman i'm not counting that as a fox hunt it's like a civil war reenactment they do with dogs yeah and so well and and i don't want to take anything away from those people for doing that yeah i mean i i'm not cutting them down for

having a simulated fox because these people hunt on horseback and they have big packs of dogs and they do these scent drags through the countryside so i mean i think that's great that is a far cry from what it was and so but here's where i learned some stuff okay i had several people contact me personally in northern ireland and in france real fox hunting with hounds like chasing real fox is still legal on horseback um and then i also had a bunch of people say oh clay you're wrong because there's fox hunting united states i wasn't talking about fox in the united states we can run all kind of stuff with hounds i mean it's we live i mean this we got some incredible rights when it comes to hound hunting in this country still to this day and so i i know people in northwest

arkansas that do simulated fox hunts and it's a, it's an equestrian thing. You know what I mean? They're riding horses fast. They've got hounds, they're doing scent drags, and there's probably real fox hunts going on in the U S but I was talking about Europe, my whole idea with, you know, just this kind of guard the gate thing is that they, they want to take this stuff away from us and we can look at some of these places where they have and so my painting still is on the ceiling so yeah i like it pugnacious to the very end clay newcomb other people wrote in saying they were mad at me about saying that fox hunters aren't hunters. I don't know.

I don't know. Yeah. He's like, oh, we're out there for having a good time, loving nature, all that. Another guy wrote in. He says he hunts at a place now and then these fox hunters, they drag that little smell through the woods and they all come riding after it. He said, yup, you'll be out in the woods. He's talking about being out in his tree stand. Yup, you'll be out in the woods and have 40 hounds come through making a racket, followed by dozens of people on horseback,

dressed up in the red and green coats like the old English hunters wore. It's quite something when you're out hunting in the woods and that rolls through. As an avid hunter, I can tell you that the people involved in this fox hunt are so unrelated to nature and real hunting that it's insulted to call the fox hunt a hunt. Obviously, there's no real fox, but the people this sport attracts are also the last people that would ever know what to

do with a real fox or any wild game for that matter. It's all just a social status affair. Then you pipe and smoke it, Brody Henderson. You know, my mom was into horses and she belonged to what was called a hunt and saddle club.

They didn't do any hunting there. Just sad there but i think it was like just some traditional kind of connection you know i i think i hear what that guy's saying but i don't i mean these people are on our side i mean if they i mean yeah we can say i think it's a pretty big stereotype i bet there's some legit folks in those bunches well he points out that what one of these what one of these fellers points out not that guy but another feller points out that uh we share enemies right radical animal rights community yeah suburban sprawl habitat yeah having the your the uh the rules of your life dictated by people who make stereotypes about you and don't understand what it is exactly that you do, but they know they don't want you to do it.

So you're bound together by your enemies. But I'll point out, I don't want to do that. I was going to say, but I won't. I was going to say, but I shouldn't. I was going to point out how we were friends with the Ruskies against the Germans. Look what that got say, but I shouldn't. I was going to point out how we were friends with the Ruskies against the Germans. Look what that got us. But that wouldn't be appropriate.

It wouldn't even be a good metaphor. But Patton wanted to go on and get them second. But Patton and my old man. They were ready to keep going east. Yeah. My old man thought we were halfway done with that war when we quit. Clay, I'm with you i think we should not generalize you know just off this one email that uh all these mounted fox hunters are not real outdoors folks

because i think like you said there's probably quite a few that are yeah i'd like to see the guy that wrote that email ride that horse there you go that's interesting good point ronnie all right um on to being better outdoors folks with our weapons i wish i can remember oh he says it right here on episode 252 the podcast steve was talking about the most common firearm related injury was bird hunting and this guy agrees with him he is a shooting instructor in the United States Coast Guard

counterterrorism teams and teaches advanced marksmanship he wanted to write in to say that some of the stuff that he teaches in that sort of space can be used for us as safety measures, you know, as hunters out in the field. And just for some other projects we've been working on, you know, speaking of people getting shot or getting close to shot, this really kind of hits home right now. But there's a thing

that they teach when they shoot, uh, when they go into close quarters combat. And that's basically when they have to start, uh, engaging multiple targets, they teach them to move their eyes first, then the gun that being. So one it's for safety, right? Because that way your eyes and brain can look at the target and go, yes, that is a threat. I need to, you know, get rid of it. Because you can imagine close quarters. They got a bunch of their team members in there. It can be dark. It's in a house.

You got to be very careful about what direction you're shooting at, where you're shooting. Just like we do when we're out in the field, you know, up on bird hunting and there's whatever, 10 people on a pheasant hunt. And another advantage of that, as he's saying, is that it actually makes you faster at shooting. A lot of people think that you want to look over or swing to your target with your gun. But if you do that, you'll actually pass over the target and then have to come back and correct whereas if you go there first with your eyes lock on then bring your target to then bring your um pistol or rifle shotgun whatever to the target you'll be faster doing it that way you know what's interesting parallel there there is when you take out beginner hunters who aren't of custom shooting scoped rifles, they have a very difficult

time finding the deer or whatever. Acquiring the target. Because they are looking through the scope, trying to get oriented through the scope, and then searching for the thing. Mm-hmm. Once you get the knack of it, your eye never leaves the thing. The thing being your target. Your target.

You're looking at a deer on a hillside, and you bring your rifle up. You don't then look for it. It's just there. Right. Like, your eye is on it and you everything is the scope is coming to your eye which is already trained on the thing it's hard to do but you just figure it out over time yeah you don't go like okay i looked at the scope then i'll start staring all over the place trying to find the thing it's seamless i first yeah but you

know he relates it to like getting tunnel vision and you know you're getting real like we always talk about the the factor of lust and wanting to kill something and wanting to be successful as a hunter and you know you see the pheasant flush and you're so focused on that that you don't see your buddy that's in the line of fire right happens it does happen does happen i mean a really good example is if you shoot up like old south old style south dak, flankers, and pushers, the flankers are only on the outside of the field in case a bird peels out. But sometimes right when it starts, these birds start coming up in the middle and they're like, well, there's nobody here. And they're shooting the other flanker or putting shot on them. And I've seen a guy get taken right square in the lip right here,

flanking a field. And he says, I'm not flanking anymore this week. And it, I mean, it was pretty, it was, we had to get it out. We had to get the. Dig the pellet out. Yeah. Yeah. Mingus. Interesting.

Um, okay. More about dogs. While back, I don't know what, uh, episode it was, but we were talking about blood tracking dogs and about how it's becoming a thing in more and more states. And a fellow wrote in, he wasn't a member, he's not a member of the United Blood Trackers, but he was saying that there's a lot of Facebook-based groups that provide volunteer tracking services to hunters. And what was interesting is that very high success rates for these dogs to find wounded deer that you might not find later. What kind of numbers did they say? 30, 40%? percent in 2016 17 they went on 527 tracks had 287 total recoveries which makes for a success rate of 54.4 percent you know what i want to know here and it'd be really important to this is is that after like is that after you failed manually tracking? I would say typically.

Typically. Well, you'd have to know that because if you're just showing up off out of the gate with a dog, that doesn't impress me at all. I'll bet you though, some people, they're shooting one in the evening, right at dark. They may just call the dog. They may know better. That's what I'm saying because, well, normal trailing. I mean, normal trailing is. Yeah.

You know, higher than 50%. So if, but if it, if that's, you've exhausted your manual tracking abilities and then you're recovering 54% of what couldn't have been recovered. Otherwise that's impressive. Yeah. I mean, my only exposure to this was in Idaho. They use a woman shot a bear right at dark. It was raining.

Um, and they brought in a teeny little blood tracking dog. That bear had only gone a hundred yards. I don't think we would have ever found it. It was buried in the brush. We couldn't see any blood. So it was a pretty impressive and it was quick. It was a couple minutes yeah that dog found hey don't get me wrong man i'm not down on it i think that they should loosen whatever

restrictions are in place and make it that it's just the thing i wish that like every community had a community to help people with recovery i'm not down on it i'm saying if if you could up if after you exhausted possibilities and you brought a dog and then had a 50% of recovering, that's phenomenal. Yeah. I'd say that's more the rule. More the rule. I've interviewed three, three trackers. And they come in and after they can't find it.

Yeah. Gotcha. Very rare would they just go in without any intel. Just say, Hey, I shot, just come out with me. But would you say, you know, 50% of the time we could find it. Yeah. So it's almost always after a bad weather condition or inability to find anything. Gotcha.

No blood, then you go get it. The no blood thing always gets them. So when they get called in, it's because usually of a lack of blood, most people see blood to keep going. They don't, they don't look for help. And the dogs are able to now track from the, the deer's tarsal gland, which is a,

just like our thumbprint. Like the FBI is not going to mistake your thumbprint for mine. A dog, a well-trained dog is not going to, not going to mistake that tarsal gland smell. It's that deer's individual scent. He's on, I'm on that deer. I'm on, I'm on Bobby Rinella and I'm chasing

him across his Zerlot farm and I'll find him. It's funny you mentioned him because I got a nephew named Bobby Rinella. I knew that. Oh, you did? Yeah. Oh. The other thing that would affect that statistic is how many of those deer didn't die.

Like, so you got to think there's some percentage of. Oh, they weren't there to be found anyway. Yeah. So there's some percentage of those unrecovered deer that didn't die, which I would think would be pretty high. I think a lot of deer survive what people, just flesh wounds. And so that makes it even a higher percentage of dead deer that are recovered. And actually, they've got numbers all the way through 2019, 2020, and the percentages are every year, it seems to steadily increase.

Like in 2020, success rate got up to 66%. Hmm. Okay. Now, Ronnie. Yeah. You ready? Oh, yeah. Take it away.

Where would you want- Putting a raccoon, fighting coons and dogs and barrels or whatever I said. Well, okay. Believe it or not, I listen to your podcast quite often. Okay. And every once in a while, I hear you tell a story and I just cringe. Because it came from you. I know where, I know the source, but I know for a fact that I did not say it like that.

But one of the reasons is when I sit with you anywhere, and this has been since the day you worked for me at 18 years old, you like to engage and ask questions. Like I could start telling a story and you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Wait. So this guy, so you remember things and I was talking about, and Clay, Clay, you't want your dog chasing deer, you put the coon dog in a barrel with a bunch of deer legs and roll it down a hill. Now, barbaric, silly, local legend, whatever it is. I started Googling this morning and there's a guy who uses doe urine in a, in a cup on an electric fence. And when the dogs go to smell the dog urine or the dough urine the dog gets a shock from the electric fence that's great what clay what have what have you heard for old legends

of breaking them from trash they call it chasing trash i well if clay doesn't have any i got a do you yeah i've got one let's hear it go ahead you know i i don't have anything beyond that i mean the real world like houndsmen typically don't or at least the brand i'm around don't buy into that kind of stuff it's a lot more natural there's a lot of really pretty easy ways to break right right i don't even know if it ever happened break up trash i just know guys oh it had i've heard of that same one, Ronnie, about dough urine and electric fence. I don't have anything great. Let me tell you one here. It would work to keep the dog out of barrels, though.

Yeah. Dogs, don't even worry about me chasing barrels. Yeah, never going to happen again. I see a barrel, I go the other way. That's right. Okay. From the same guys, I don't want to say who they are from way back the same guys that you came away with the story about you fill up a barrel

full of deer legs and roll them down the hill right and i i was unsettled by this when i heard it from them back when nothing would have unsettled me right but. But I was unsettled by this. They would also say that when they had one of their dogs kill a fawn, they said what you do is you hang the dog up in a tree by its collar

and whoop it with the fawn. That is brutal. Well, and I later thought that can't be true. We had a guy, I didn't put it on Instagram because it was too graphic.

We had a guy send us in a picture. He was very upset by it. It was like a high test collar and a high test lead, like the kind houndsmen use. Like those bright orange, real heavy fricking collars. Hanging from a tree. And underneath that collar was a stack of dog bones. Oh.

Oh. Telling you what. And he thought, he's a hunter. He found it. And he's like, this is insane. Yeah. Telling you what. And he thought, he's a hunter. He found it. He's like, this is insane. Yeah.

No one knows what happened that night. I don't know. No. I don't know. Bad apples. For sure. I'm, I'm,

I don't know what happened that night, but I'm assuming it's condemnable. But I'm just saying like, I heard that a long time ago and, and we're,

and you know, we're talking about like, well, people used to do a lot of things that they shouldn't do. Right. Right. Well, Brody, you said you heard that. Oh, mine wasn't. My dad used to, uh, his. This is for you personally or the dog? No, no, no, no.

His, his bird dog. He was a grouse hunter back when Pennsylvania used to have grouse and, uh, that that dog would occasionally chase deer and it was nothing as bad as what we've already talked about but he'd hang a a piece of uh deer hide soaked in in doe urine on that dog's collar i have no idea if it like i've heard that to make it sick of it yeah yeah it's just he did it who knows if i don't know if it worked but that was something he He still talks about doing that to this day. I've had guys tell me about tying a skunk hide onto a dog to make the dog get sick of skunk hide smell. Or just get so used to it, they don't pay any attention to it. I don't know. You know what's funny about you telling how I tell your stories and get them a little assed up?

Yeah, there's a, I can't tell the story because it's very, very sensitive material. I could do it if I took my time. Very sensitive material. But Ronnie had a story that happened to him. I told my brother the story about what happened to Ronnie.

A couple years go by, he's drunk and he's telling Ronnie's story about what happened to me. Right. And Ronnie's halfway through the story, he's like, wait a minute, happened to me. Right. And Ronnie's halfway through the story.

He's like, wait a minute. That's my story. That always happens at the fish shack. Where were we? Keep going, Ron. Well, where are we at? Oh, as far as the- The scandal. The scandal.

The scandal. The NAVDA scandal. Okay. So- It's like the Ukraine scandal, but it was about NAVDA. There, there is in, in America, there are sporting dog groups, right? Okay. Individual breed groups.

One is a Deutsch Drathar, Deutsch Kurzar, which is a German short hair, German wire hair. And there's other breed clubs that they hold to the standards of the European testing system. Okay. Which is what NAVDA is kind of based on. Explain NAVDA real quick. Well, NAVDA is North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association. Okay.

And what we're looking for is a well-rounded dog that does good work before and after the shot on land and on water. Like. And you're a judge for NAVDA. Right. Yeah. I've been judging 20 years for him.

Yeah. And so that's what we're looking for. But in the European test, and I can't, actually, I did call a friend when I knew I was coming on, I did call a friend in Germany. And what they used to do, at least this is my understanding, somebody can write in and straighten it all out. And you're German. And I'm, yeah, BAME, with an umlaut over the O.

But we dropped the umlaut. It's actually BIMA. Anyway, so during a test, they may not have a, let's say, what's a version of a raccoon in Europe? They have badgers. They do have raccoons. Is there a European raccoon? Yeah.

I know there's a European badger. So the dogs, because the dogs are always. Not the badgers and raccoons are like the have raccoons. Is there a European raccoon? Yeah. I know there's a European badger. So the dogs, because the dogs are always. Not the badgers and raccoons are like the same thing, but I don't know. But they're egg-eating, bird-eating, ground-eating critters that you want to get rid of. So because in Europe, everything's on private ground, they wanted to keep the grounds as pristine as possible for the ground nesting birds and the rabbits, which are the game that they're hunting. So the dogs were always expected to dispatch any kind of vermin, whatever they could catch in the course of a day that if it came across a ground

hog, if it came across a badger, came across a raccoon, skunk, kill it. Eliminate the competition. Eliminate everything so the hunter can get something with his shotgun. So part of their testing format, on a test day, there's no way you could guarantee like you're going to run into a raccoon on a test day.

They, but what they would do, there's a breed, a breed warden who also does the confirmation of the dog and make sure that this dog should be bred to that dog. It's kind of like that old school arranged marriages. They, they get very concerned with the coat on that dog versus the coat on this dog or the furnishings, they call it.

There's a lot of. They call the dogs color, it's furnishings? No, it's coat. Coat. Yeah. So when it has the big beard and the big fuzzy face. Those are furnishings? That's furnishings, right.

That's great, man. Yeah. Rusty always thought it was the testicles. I can see that. He's always going like, hey, how's that dog's furnishings? Oh, yeah. It's the, man. Yeah. Rusty always thought it was the testicles. I can see that. He's always going like, hey, how's that dog's furnishings? Oh, yeah. It's a short hair.

Like a euphemism for his crow. It didn't have any furnishings. Anyway, so right now, currently, this is a friend of mine. No, I won't even say what he's decorated for. Anyway, he's over in Europe right now working for us. He's decorated. Yeah. And so he has a German breath. A German?

Well, I don't know if he manscapes or not. I really, I don't know how far we're going to go into that. But anyway, he told me that in Germany right now, if this happens in the course of a hunt and you're with somebody as a witness, okay, that is still a desirable trait. So if you and I were out hunting and my dog, even a feral cat, if my dog dispatched a feral cat, I could say like, Steve, write a note to my breed warden that you're a hunter. I saw Ron's dog do it and it would be duly noted in that dog's paperwork. Now, what they've done here, I can't speak for Germany, but when I started getting into the versatile dog world, I knew a lot of people that were in what's called the VDDGNA. That's Wehrendeutsch Trattar Group North America. And that's the group that the fellow from Alaska wrote the email from.

Okay. Um, to best of my knowledge, that is still a requirement to breed. They want to make sure that your dog will dispatch game. And they call it a sharpness. Or, or hardness. Hardness.

Yeah. I think it's hardness, like HD. Would most American upland hunters with dogs, I would think would consider that to be an undesirable trait. Well, I've always said they wouldn't have started if they had porcupines in Germany. Yeah.

Like I really think they would not, if they had porcupines in Germany, that it's because porcupines are the worst thing for a dog to get into. My dogs have killed raccoons to get a scratch on the ear, go kill a porcupine and it's, you know, $600 at emergency vet, you know, have them taken out.

So anyway, so that was part of the testing to the best of my knowledge and to the best of my knowledge it still is but you know somebody can write in the controversy came up um in navda nowhere in our testing do we test on fur, but you are allowed in this one part of a, one part of our utility test, we take a, typically a duck and we put like a long leash on it and it's called a drag. So the dog is over in the truck with the owner. I make a little feather pile and I drag this

duck 200 yards. A dead duck. A dead duck. Okay. And I drag it into the woods and kind of hide it and then I go behind another tree or something to stay out away from the dog. I blow my whistle.

They call the owner, the dog comes up. Now this isn't a dog's test of nose because a dead duck dragging in the grass. I mean, anybody, your dog at home could find that. Yeah, I don't think so. We can try it tonight if you had time. Um, but what this does is it shows the dog's cooperation and obedience.

Like you have to go retrieve that. And in our rules, because we have a big background, we have a historic connection with Germany, a boat of winter held that started NAVDA, you know, he came from that world and we allow replacement if the chapter will provide a duck, but if you are a person that wants to do it with a rabbit or a squirrel or a woodchuck, you could bring your own dead, let's say cold dead roadkill or something you had in your refrigerator the night before, because a lot

of the members from VDDGNA are also members of NAVDA. So they're practicing. These are people that really like to test their dogs. So they come to our venue and they test their dogs and they go in their venue and test dogs. In their venue, there's a lot more of these drag, which is the retrieve. And there's a lot of emphasis. There's an old saying that the Europeans want a tracking dog that'll point and Americans want a pointing dog that'll track.

Got it. So their emphasis in Europe has always been on recovery of game. 100%. Like you are not allowed to go upland hunting or duck hunting without a dog. You can in America, but not in Europe, not in Germany.

And you can't big game hunt unless you have the resources of like a United Blood Trackers, which they don't have there, but they always have like the hunting property that Ben told me about, they call it a reserve, might be two or three farmers get together and let's say, okay, let's, let's get a leasee to come out here and they can hunt and they can, you know, take some of the roe deer or

the red deer, whatever's on the, in that area. And, you know, if there's ducks, they can hunt ducks. So those hunters are kind of in charge of that piece of property. And, uh, so in, in Germany or in the VDD GNA testing, they do a lot more recovery. So they want, they actually will drag a dead fox and they call it a fox in a box. The dogs had to jump over like a box edge and retrieve a fox and bring a fox back, a rabbit back. So that's where that little mess up happened.

We don't train for it in our test, but at one portion of our test, you are allowed to bring in your own cold fur. Got it. For that portion of the test. Nowhere else in the test can you substitute whatever the chapter would provide for you. Can you explain what you were telling me about? You mentioned in certain German systems where there's a person that, you mentioned the arranged marriage thing.

Yeah. That you could have a dog and bring it down and that dog would get stamped, do not breed. Right. If the dog failed, let's say the dog did fail its hardness test. Like this dog just can't close the deal on a skunk or a possum or whatever. They would stamp do not breed on their papers because you can't breed within the club without the blessing of the club. Where in America, you and I could breed your dog and my dog.

No one's going to stop me. But in, when you're in that club of that breed club, the breed warden, like he sits at the throne of the breeding. He'll say like, Steve's got a dog that's got a nice coat, maybe not a great undercoat. And Ron's got a dog that's coat would compliment that.

Now they have to have all the hunting skills up there through testing. See, in that club, you also don't get to breed your dog unless it passes these tests. Where in NAVDA, you could fail your dog and still go to your neighbor and breed your German Shorthair to his German Shorthair. They could both.

And sell it as a German Shorthair. Oh sure, a hundred percent. But they don't have to pass the test to be bred. But if it's in the European judging system or breed club system, those dogs not only have to participate in the test, they have to get a passing score. So you don't have a bunch of, you know, guys like me in high school breeding, basically. What in your mind, based on your experience judging dogs, if someone was going to go, this is highly subjective, I understand. If someone's going to go buy a dog, they're like, I need to know what kind of dog to get. I want the most versatile dog I can find on the planet.

You would say? The one that was near and dearest to my heart was a German wire haired pointer, which is the English version of Deutsche Drathar. So Deutsche is German. Drathar is wire hair. So a German wire hair. That's always been my go-to favorite dog. But that's not the kind of dog you run.

No, I, I, I got tired of all the cats and all the deer and the fawns and the porcupines and the dog fights. Because they're just too aggressive. They can be too aggressive. I shouldn't say too aggressive. They're aggressive. They're aggressive. More aggressive.

Yeah. If there's a dog that's prone to even getting a fight with another dog, it's a dog that's got that. He's kind of like a hypervigilant dog. It's almost like picture a bunch of guys that fight in MMA and going drinking with them. There's probably going to be a fight in the bar that night. Right. But if you went to the-

They'd tell you not. They'd tell you because all that aggression- Is released into the ring. Yeah. What's funny is I went to an MMA fight one time and watched no fewer than three fights in the crowd, including one that sent a woman away on a stretcher. But then, meanwhile, it's supposed to be that there's no, it's all alleviated through the spectacle.

I'm like, oh, it was like a hockey game. You can't take the heart, the hardness out of the dog, you know? So, so the dogs I run now, yeah, they are, they're kind of known for not, the Italians are not, they don't have that type of testing system. They've never had it. The dogs just have to perform in the field for upland game. So generations, hundreds of years of that, get a dog that really doesn't care much about,

you know, fur. Now it still happens. Don't, don't get me wrong. Bravo, Bravo's killed a couple of cats in his later years for some reason. I don't know why, but I would trust him around most domestic animals. Abraco Italiano still has that.

They're just pretty, they're just not interested in fur. But the German wire hare or Deutsch Strathair or the German short hare or the German equivalent is the Deutsch Kurzhaar, those animals are more prone to like, if you're out hunting and a feral cat scoots out of the grass, that's the last run for the cat. It's going to be on it.

Yeah. What's the worst kind of dog? Oh, there's no worst. It's really, that gets down to breeding. Like if, if what I mentioned earlier, if. So there's not a kind of dog that people insist on buying and then you, after all the testing experience you've had, you're just like, you're just, you're wasting your time. I would say, I would say in every breed of dog, I could find you one that would be adequate in the field.

But there are breeds that haven't had the testing and, and kind of lost favor with the Upland Hunter over the, like the one that everybody talks about is the Iris Setter. You know, real pretty mahogany coat, you know, just a friendly dog. Back in the day, that was the upland dog in North America for years. And then the popularity when the German dogs came over after World War II, the hunters started going for German shorthairs and German wirehairs and Weimaraners. And the breeders who are still breeding the Irish Setter, they just lost popularity. And so right now, to take an Irish Setter and put it in through our system, it could be done, and it is done. But if you called me up and said, Ron, I want a versatile dog, and my wife wants an Irish Setter, I'd say, let's get you one that you got. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes.

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Hmm. Yeah. Brody, tell them about your dog, man. Oh, the English Springer Spaniel. He's got big shoes to fill, man. Because your old dog was good. Yeah, and that dog just required very little training. But I went a year after that first one died. Didn't know if I was going to get another one.

Got another Springer Spaniel. And man, it's just, it's not his fault. It's like, he's coming along. I shot a couple of grouse over him, a couple of pheasants, a couple of ducks over him last, last fall. And the old dog would retrieve ducks. This one will not so far. How old is it, Brody? He's about 16 months now.

Give him time. Well, that's the problem is like, I just, you know, I go hunting for other stuff and don't dedicate enough time to training him. And so hopefully he'll come along. I'm not waiting him off yet. What do you think of the general name of the dog? What's the dog's name?

Dusty. No, not the name of the dog. The kind of dog. Oh, the English Springer. Okay. The English Springer is a flushing dog. So I don't have a lot of background with flushing dogs. There's three major types.

The hounds that Clay has, which for tracking, mostly for big game or raccoons. And then you have the flushing dogs, which are in the retriever category. So you got Springer Spaniels, Irish Water Spaniel, Labrador Retriever, Chesapeake Bay Retriever. When those dogs are used, they're retrieving specialists, which is kind of funny that it doesn't pick up a duck. Usually it picks up everything. Well, he's kind of a wimp.

Well, then that happens. There's no fixing that, right? Yeah, no, usually maturity fixes that sometimes. Fix a wimp. Well, then that happens. There's no fixing that, right? Yeah, no. Usually maturity fixes that sometimes. Fixes wimpiness. Didn't you ever know kids that like, like my daughter, Jessie, she didn't, she was real shy. And now she's on news every other Sunday, you know, doing a cooking segment. She was real shy as a kid.

Just took her a while to find her voice. And dogs can be the same way. Yeah. I mean, he'll pick up, he picked up grouse and pheasants. It's just that duck thing. Yeah. It was new. And he was like, I don't know, maybe I'm not even supposed to.

Right. You know, right. You know, if the first thing you shot for him was a duckling out of season, he might be a good duck dog. You know, so those dogs don't point. So therefore they're not in the, I don't judge Springer Spams. I'm with you. Yeah. But as far as training the dogs, it's all the

same training. You know, the, the, you just know in the process, like Brody's job is to make sure that dog stays within shotgun range and the dog's natural range should be more cooperative. It should be more around you anyway. And with the pointing dogs, you have to work on the steadiness of the point because a pointing dog will find a bird. And after a while, he just, he just.

Can't handle it. He just can't handle it. And he's going to, and if he gets into that bird before you get there, which could be two, 300 yards away, especially in the Dakotas or way hunting North Dakota, you can see a dog on point 300 yards away. Well, if he can't hold his shit together, you're not getting any birds, you know. Break, breaks point, spooks the bird. Yep, exactly. So that's like our curse is working on

steadiness and in a flushing dog, it's keeping that dog within, let's say 25, 30 yards. Yeah, ideally. And they, they, you know, you want them quartering back and forth. Right, right. Which they, he does pretty good. What they do nice in is you always think, why are the birds always out there where my pointing dogs found them?

Well, they're also birds you're walking by because your dogs are already 200 yards away from you. You can't smell a bird on the ground. The flushing dog kind of vacuums like everywhere you're walking. So a lot of people, it's very popular, will hunt with a flushing dog and a pointing dog. Oh yeah. Now the training comes into like when the two lines meet, but a lot of times that pointer can just be out there on the horizon or out there in

a field hunting and your flusher could be walking along a fence line with you and boom, take something right out of there. You probably roll your eyes when people tell you this, cause I bet everybody tells you this, but. Well, you knew our dog. We had a really good dog, like a really good flushing dog growing up. Yeah. had duchess that white lab yeah

she was great for rough grouse but the only thing that made her good for rough grouse is she didn't go far away right she was so she would run in between you and she'd flush birds without knowing she was flushing birds but she'd just be like busy body and within 20 30 yards you no matter where you went right it would inadvertently kick stuff up. And then it was very good at finding it. Yeah. So it wasn't that its goodness was only that it liked to smell around. Yeah.

And didn't go away. Right. And if there was a thicket that you didn't want to go into and you waited for a minute, she'd eventually get bored and go in there and look around and then something comes busting out. Yeah. And like when you, like grouse hunting by our

house, like if a grouse is on the ground and you just start walking by, like that grouse's job is to sit. Like when he flies, he's going to get taken by a hawk, right? Statistically, that's how they're going to die the most. So his job is to sit. So if you're walking through the woods with your brothers and you're talking, the grouse is like, they don't know.

They don't know I'm here. But now you throw this other thing that's like, what's that erratic footstep? Why am I hearing footsteps over here? Why am I hearing footsteps? And then that kind of unnerves the grouse and grouse is like, I can handle three kids walking by me, but whatever that, you know, whatever that, which is more like a coyote or a bobcat, you

know, that's, of course they don't hunt like a dog does, but, um, so that, yeah, yeah. Duchess would be a real helpful, again, with the range though. If she did that 50 yards from you. Oh, you'd be madder than hell. You'd be hot. If people want to hunt a flusher and a pointer,

how come nobody's just breeding two of them together and coming out with the best of both worlds? You know. You'd sell that for a lot of money right there. That's a good little business plan. You know, I got a little English Cocker Spaniel right now and I could breed that with one of my Brockles and see what happens, but I'm not

thinking that would work because whatever, whatever instincts going to, if the pointing instinct comes through in the dog, it's always going to point at least initially. And then if you were looking for that dog to just flush and he kept the ranginess of the pointing dog, well, then you're back out to unshootable birds.

But it is real popular to hunt with a, like a lab or a cocker or a springer while you've got a pointing dog running out, you know. Yeah. And there's a whole thing with like the flushing dog honoring the pointer or vice versa. That's where the real high level training. Really?

Oh yeah. Like you tell the one dog, if you see him point, don't go in there and screwing it up. Right. Right. So if you would, if you saw your dog point, you would call your, your flushing dog to heal. You'd go, he'd come right back to your leg.

Cause you don't want him to blow it. You don't want him to blow it. Right. But if you get close enough, now, if you're within 10 yards of your dog and you know, there's something there, you get to know your dog's points. All of a sudden the tail gets loose or the body gets loose or he might kind of look over his head and see if you're coming.

That usually means the bird's gone or the bird's starting to move. But his training is like, I'm not allowed to move until my boss gets here. So what you don't want is that little flushing dog running in on a pointing dog when you don't know the situation yet but when you get to say let's say 10 yards let the little flusher go but now the pointing dog can get mad because that's his bird so you got to have it's it's a struggle are there with these high test well-trained dogs do you ever see anybody that gets that they're able to go in and hunt woodcock and real dense cover and they whatever then the dog's like the pointer is oh i'm only gonna work 30 yards i'll still point but i'm working close i've seen but then you go into open cover and the dog you're able

to communicate to the dog and then all he's he's out 70 80 yards looking for a pheasant out in open cover can it can is it or is it one or the other? No, no, it should be both. In fact, in, in the NAVDA rules, we don't implement it as much as we used to, but what we would do, let's say if we rented a 40 acre or we had a lease on a 40 or 80 acre hay field to use for the field. And if there was an adjoining woodlot, so in our old rules were take the dog now that's

hunting this field, take the dog into the woodlot and you should see the dog's range tighten up. Oh, so that's an expectation. That is an expectation. Doesn't always come, but it's an expectation, you know? And, and honestly, I can't remember more than a half a dozen tests where I'm like, yeah, don't worry. We got a little piece of woods.

We'll walk through the woods to get to the next field. And I will make a note, like that dog just wanted to get to the next field. Like, and if there was a grouse sitting on the side of this woodlot, we weren't going to find it, you know, but it's something that we don't really set up for the test, but it is in our kind of our judge's handbook. You notice it. It's something we can do if we opt to. Yeah.

Explain, um, we were talking last night as well, and you were talking about a thing that that that you guys train dogs to do that is just completely this has no like like residential house dog owners this is not on their radar but but the what do you call it where they get up on the block oh i was talking about the the program i'm my my friend justin and i oh yeah but yeah we'll talk explain the program but explain like what that's called like it's just part of the it's part you guys take it as a matter of course that of course you can a hunting dog should do this right but you were talking about i don't know why any dog owner wouldn't want to establish this capability and it makes sense yeah well we refer to it as a calming touch so when a dog when a puppy is young um when they're real young it's a matter of maybe putting them on

your lap and fiddling with their paws and fiddling with their ears. Most puppies, you turn them on their back and they're like, you know, they don't want to be on their back. Sure. So you do. No matter how nice a dog is, the vet's got to

wrestle it. Right. Right. There's those dogs. So what we would do is, let's say once you get this dog home and he's's let's say 12 weeks old and he's you kind of got to wait till they show you a little teenagerness in them you know if they're just walking around a little dopey i mean there's not much resistance but what would do is

take this dog up onto an elevated platform whether it's your picnic table a tailgate and yeah but you have in your in your shop you have actual a training table yeah yeah the ramp right and that's used for a whole lot of stuff. Okay. So I just happen to use the ramp. I'm with you. And the table. But for a person, let's say when you got your dog home, now yours was four months old when you got it.

Yeah. You don't know the history of it. But let's say it was eight weeks from a breeder or a farmer had an accidental litter. If you were to take that dog, and the show world, they call stacking it, we call it a calming touch. You get it to sit up there and you got a short leash or you kind of hold it by the leash, you know, hold it by its collar. You take your other hand and you run it down its back and up its tail and down its legs. You'll see a lot of dogs, you go to grab their lower leg and they pull their leg up and they pull their leg up. Well, there's ways to offset that.

Like if you're having trouble letting them, they just don't want you to touch their back left leg for some reason. You reach around and you take their, their right back leg and you start putting pressure on that while you're, it's almost like you're milking a cow. Yeah.

You grab the right rear leg and all of a sudden they put their left one down. Yeah. They're like, they're like basically trusting you to give them a physical exam because you can't, you can't ask a dog, do you get any ticks on you today? You can't ask a dog, do you have a toothache? Yeah.

You can't ask your dog, do you have a ear infection? So you want your dog to be able to, your hand should be able to literally stroke the tail, stroke the legs, open the lips up, pick his ears up, pick his lips up, count his teeth. While he's standing there. While he's standing there. While he's standing there. Now, that doesn't happen in one course, but it's something that like all people would benefit when they bring home a new dog. You know, when my brother is training llamas, like breaking and training llamas, after you get to the point where you can just, you know, they're very, like, they're not like a horse. They never become your friend.

I'm sure someone will be like, oh, my llama's my best friend. But, I mean, generally, they're not, they don't need that. They don't have that deep connection where they, where a lot of horses really seem to. Like people. Appreciate a human presence. Right. Like, they're just, they're a little more. They're a little more wild.

It's safe to say that, yeah, they're not quite there. A thing is working to the point. It's just funny you mentioned the feet. A thing is working to the point. It's just funny you mentioned the feet. A thing is working to the point where you can handle his feet. Right. And check out. And it takes a lot.

It takes a lot to get there where you're going to approach it and touch its foot. Yeah, because right now. And it's like a sign of like, okay, we've gotten somewhere now. I can touch its foot. They accept you. Yeah.

And it's really, all it is, is let the dog's just got to, you know, get his composure and be like, okay, this is, this will be over in a minute. And then after a while, the dog really likes it. And you know, what dog doesn't like to be petted? Whose dog comes up and says, keeps petting me, keeps knocking your arm up. That same dog, if I stuck him up on a cooler in

your backyard and I want to start looking at his back legs, he'd probably get away from my back legs. So even in our, in our testing during a utility test or natural ability test, when a dog comes out of the water, we feel their coat, we count their teeth, and we look at their eye set to make sure they don't have like ectropic or entropic eyelids. And we, for males, we also check for testicles to make sure they don't, are not

monorchid or missing testicles, both of them. And that goes into our notes. And that way, when somebody reads about a dog that they had sold to California, they're like, oh, good. That puppy came out with all its teeth, two testicles and a harsh coat. And, and we get that on test day, like this dog,

it won't let us look in its mouth. I mean, it's absolutely like a kid having a temper tantrum. You know, you can get bit actually, if you, if you're not careful. And that'll count against that dog. It won't count against it, but if we can't get the tooth, let's say we can't get the tooth exam done, no matter what the dog's just, I ain't doing it. I ain't doing it. Then we'll put a note on the car and it'll come in the, you know, when the magazine scores are posted, it'll say tooth exam, dog too sensitive for tooth exam.

Huh. Right. But that also tells you as you're buying a dog later on, like, well, that's rare. It's rare that we can't look in the dog's mouth. It's rare. It's a little bit of a rodeo while you're doing it sometimes. But I can always tell the people who did this calming touch to their dog, because dogs just stand there like, you know, just like a dentist.

It's like, it's like, what's, I mean, I haven't been to the dentist with a kid in a long time, but what was your kid's first dentist appointment? Oh. They're a little freaked out. My littlest one. Right. He had to go home with no toy.

Because. And come back a couple of days later, but only thing that happened, his brother and sister got the toys and it burned them up so bad. A couple couple days later but the only thing that happened is his brother and sister got the toys and it burned them up so bad a couple days later

he got all psyched up and went back in there and got taken care of. But picture if you'd have took him. But he had had stitches a few times so the minute he got in there

he's like no. I bet you it even smells like antiseptic. Yeah he's just like I know what goes on in here. They're going to start sewing something on my head. But picture if you had a kid

and you prepared this kid from a baby like no no no stop once they understand like no mom and dad are just going to start sewing something on my head. Right. But picture if you had a kid and you prepared this kid from a baby. Like, no, no, no. Stop. Once they understand. Like, no, mom and dad are just going to look to see if that little tooth is coming. Yeah, I got you. If you did that over and over again, then you put him in a dentist chair, he's like, eh?

Yeah. Hey, my mom does that. Yeah. And it's such a simple thing to do with a dog. Should it be that, like in your mind, if it's properly trained, should it be that it could be limping because it's got a cactus thorn in its paw? It should stand out there and let you pull that cactus thorn out. Oh, 100%. Really?

Yeah. You don't got to have your buddy restrain it and tape its jaw shut and stuff. It happens a lot. Remember I sent you the picture of that wooden doll that you strap in the dog's mouth to get porcupine quills out? Yeah, yeah. I've taken porcupine quills out of Bravo's mouth. He mouthed one, he didn't kill it. And I just said, sit.

And I just grabbed his big old lips and I got my Leatherman out and started pulling. He just like, okay, no big deal. Really? Yeah. Yeah. But other dogs, you get bit. Oh, that and my brother's dog and they had to, it was like group effort getting those quills out of that dog, man.

I couldn't, I couldn't trim my, my, how about like nail trimming? Like Corinne, can you trim your dog's nails or do you bring it to a place? I do. I do everything on my own. And how, how's your dog do with it? Great. I mean, that, that's what I was going to ask you is the takeaway for, you know. Everybody.

The one, yeah, exactly. For everyone. The one thing, because I, um, you know, I got a Newfoundland. This is like, moved to Montana, always wanted a dog, so I just like went for the biggest friggin' dog. He now weighs exactly as much as I do. Yeah. But the one thing, you know, I was like getting obsessed with reading training books and watching videos online, the one thing that seemed to make the most sense to me, which wasn't exactly a training technique, but seems to be training, is to touch that animal everywhere all the time. So I would stick my fingers in his mouth.

I would, you know, touch his ears, everything. You can literally take his ears and put a bow in it if you wanted to. Yeah. I mean, I give him hairstyles and I actually have tied his ears together to make it like a little ponytail um it's terrible but when it comes to clipping nails now people have to go pay you know a groomer to dog to trim their dog's nails because the dog just freaks out because you're trimming its nails and it's just like my dog has to be put under. That's how bad it is. Oh, no.

Oh, Phil, come on. We took her somewhere. They had her muzzled and strapped, and they still couldn't do it. So they actually gave her a sedative. The whole kind of dog you got. She was a stray on the Fort Peck reservation. We don't know what her life was like

before we adopted her. And so you can't go near her paws. Nothing. She's terrified. Yeah. Well, you know what's the saddest thing that happened to me? One of the saddest things that ever happened to me is I used to hang out. When you left TLI?

That was sad. Remember in Miles City, we used to hang out with that old guy, Wes Munsell? Yeah. He was in his 90s, and his wife passed away. Me and him were out messing around, driving to try to find some mushrooms one time. He was 87 at the time. Or maybe just turned he's i think he was 87 and we get we stayed out long and we were planning on staying out and he and uh he wanted me to drive him and drop him off at the doctor okay so now i was kind of worried like oh what's going on why he's got a

doctor you know so i dropped him off and he goes in there for a while and i just mess around wait for him to come out and we're driving home. And I was like, Wes, what's going on at the doctor there? And he goes, I had to get my toenails cut because my wife had always cut my toenails.

I can't reach down there. So you had to make an appointment at the doctor. I said, I'll cut your damn, you know, he never had me do it, but I was like,

I'll cut your toenails. I don't care. Yeah. Going to the doctor to cut your toenails. Yeah. Just being alone and old, man. Yeah.

It's kind of not to say. He had a loving family and everything, but it just made me sad. Yeah. Yeah. Going to the doctor to cut your toenails. Yeah. Just being alone and old, man. Yeah. It's kind of not to say. He had a loving family and everything, but it just made me sad. Yeah. Yeah. Does it make you sad hearing about that? It kind of creeps me out a little bit, actually. Because now you're thinking, I'm thinking like, you know, that book I was trying to write, real men don't wear short socks or Crocs and real men don't, you know, go to get a pedicure.

Now I know guys that actually go get pedicures. It's not that. you know, go to get a pedicure. Now I know guys that actually go get pedicures. It's not that he wasn't going to get a pedicure. He's going to a doctor to have his toenails cut. Well, you know, he could have went to a pedicure place. I mean, he's probably not, he probably doesn't want to be that kind of guy. Let's go back. Let's get back to dogs. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll just feel sad about my friend by myself. Okay. Um, tell everybody about the upland Institute project. Okay. Um, which we kind of been talking about without talking about it. Right, right. So I have a very good friend that's a really well-known dog trainer in West Michigan.

I've known him off and on since he was really young, and he's been training dogs for 30 years. Him and I kind of reconnected when he moved close to me. And with me being a judge and seeing all the different things that are training related issues during a test, like our upper level tests are a lot of obedience. Our puppy test is a lot of just natural, natural ability. What do you,

what do you roll under obedience? Steadiness, uh, retrieving, healing, waiting, you know, waiting when we go do shots away from the dog,

everything in that test, there's a, there's obedience portions of it. Like come when called falls and that's sure. Sure. Primary will be right. Stay. Whoa. Okay. Um, so we're always sitting there kicking things back and forth about like,

oh, I saw, and he says, well, yeah, that's probably because the person didn't do this before they did that. And then I think back on my testing career, which I don't test my dogs very often, but as a requirement, you are required as a judge to test your dog every so often because they want to put you on that side of the fence. So you don't,

you're just not a judge your whole life. You got to go there and go like me and my dog are here. Guys, guys, remember I might be watching you next year. Oh, I imagine that's humbling as hell, man. Oh, you should have seen me in my last test.

I was actually told that I was no longer a judge last January. Or no, two Januaries ago. I said, what do you mean? They go, well, you went over your grace year. I'm like, no, I didn't. They're like, yeah, we keep pretty good records. And I had to get a test lined up, and I did. And it was Bravo, that big dog I have with the long tail, that big brocco.

And we're not acing the test, but as a judge, I'm like, yeah, we're okay. Oh, I would be so unnerved in that environment, man. We're not going to get all fours today who have a zero to four. But I said, I got twos and threes in the right spot. We're okay. Last part of the test. Last part of the test, the easiest part. They launch a duck with a launcher, like a big giant slingshot.

They launched this duck across. A duck. A duck. An expired duck. A dead duck out of a launcher. Out of a giant slingshot. Huh. It's like a four foot slingshot.

Someone who saves a duck from whatever. We save it from other things or we buy ducks like that. But anyway, every dog loves this. The dog, you know, the birds up in the sky, you shoot the blank gun in the air to simulate the shot, which is another part of obedience. He's not allowed to leave until the duck hits the water. Got it. And, and then you send the dog and I'm like, oh, we're going to pass. I'm going to be a judge again.

And Bravo just stood there on the bank and looked at that duck. And I'm like, fetch it up. Fetch. I said, fetch it up. He's not budging. He's not putting his toe in the water. And I'm like, this dog loves fetching out of the water. I take this dog goose and duck hunting, right?

And he's like, eh, ain't doing it. And I'm like, what am I going to do? So the judge is there and they all know me because, you know, you make friends over the years. And you've judged their dogs harshly. And I also know that to pass this portion, that dog has got to get that duck out of that water. All my pleading is going to bring my score down. But if I can get that duck to shore, I'll get a one. On pleading brings your score down.

Sure does. Oh yeah. It'd make it way down if you keep pleading. So you just whisper plead. Well, yeah, I'm like, I'm literally like,

I'm acting like I'm doing this on purpose. I'm stroking his back. I'm like, good boy. Fetch. Fetch. I'm, I'm,

I'm, they're hearing good boy, good boy. And I'm going, fetch, fetch. And he's just like, nope, fetch. They're hearing good boy, good boy, and I'm going, fetch, fetch. And he's just like, nope, nope. And they're like, what do you want to do? So you have an option to take a rock, okay?

Now, I already know my score is down there, but if that duck comes back to shore by his job. You get a C minus. Yeah. Just like I did in school. I'm going to have low numbers. They'll let you advance to the next grade. They're going to let me graduate high school.

Even if I got the D minus. Okay. It was just, you know, it was algebra. And finally, I don't know if it was the rock or what it was, but finally. I was just like, at that point, I'm going, really? Now the judge is like, Ron, quit acting so silly. I'm like, I'm looking at Bravo in the face like, really? You don't want me to be a judge again?

You can't go out there and get that damn duck for me? And they're like, all right, Ron, calm down a little bit. I think I threw, I can't remember if I threw a rock or. Finally, he just went into the pond and swam out, got the dog, gave it to me like nothing. He just, I don't know if he was messing with me. I don't know what he's doing. He watched you demean all those other dogs and he's like, you know what, buddy? I've seen you ruin enough dogs' days.

I'm going to ruin yours. I hear you all the time with your friends talking about it. Watch how I can make you nervous. I really thought, I'm like, oh my my god we are failing today but anyway upland institute project so uh justin mcgrale and myself we started kicking around the idea of like what if i got a camera and kind of followed your process through a whole bunch of dogs and it took us 15 months to film it. We filmed it in four States because, because Justin is a guy that, um, he doesn't train dogs

for testing. You know, he, he can do parts of it, but that's not, he's, he's training dogs for a hundred wants to go wild bird hunting with your dog. So he literally takes strings of dogs to Kansas, runs them Montana before the season opens in August. Same same thing him and I went to North Dakota and filmed in August and all that was reinforcing that yard training and that field

training we did in Michigan and we we have real nice shots of like say a bunch of sharp tails getting up and the dog just standing in the middle of these sharp tails just oh boy you know and he'll take a blank gun at that point and then he'll shoot the blank gun and the dog stands through it. So that's the kind of style of training and his. But, but, but it's instructional. Oh, it's very instructional.

In fact, it's. It's not like, look what a dog can do with the right training. It's like, here's how you do it. No, and, and we show examples like day one, like here's a dog the first time on a wool post. Okay.

It's almost like the first time you try to train your dog, trim your dog's nails. He's jerking. He gets on this woe post, which is a solid stake, like a horseshoe stake and a little cable. First time he hits the end of it, boy, he's bucking like a horse and he's, he doesn't understand why. And you eventually, when he does, when he does give you what you want, which is him to just stand there, then you start overlaying a name to it, which in that case would be whoa. It goes back to like heel too. You don't start a dog, you don't teach a dog to heel with the word heel.

You teach a dog to heel with motion and a leash. Once you see the compliance, then you give the command a name. And I watched him, he would come on my podcast about every six months. So I'd get listener questions. And the way he breaks down a question, it's like always like number one downloaded episodes. They just love the way he, and it's hard to, you know, look at someone's dog from an email. Because you're not, you're only getting what he said. My dog doesn't pick up the bird.

Sometimes it does. And he's, you know, he just breaks it down. And so we decided, um, you know, I, I felt I was kind of confident from doing shows with you to watch what the camera guy does. So I had, I put myself in the job of the cameraman and followed him along for 15 months. And I would, and we were really lucky that COVID

hit. So that shut my company down and I could go over to his kennel. I could go to Kansas, North Dakota. I had the whole year. Do whatever the hell you want. To do whatever the heck I wanted to. Yeah.

And, uh, and we were putting it together. It's, it's an editing, it's an audio right now. And it's, it's coming out. Well, hopefully by the time this airs, it should be out and it's called the uplandinstitute.com or that's a website. But what, how is it going to function? Like if someone wants the material, what do they do to get the material?

They would, they would purchase the material. They there's right now on the website, there's a trailer commercial that talks about it. And then there's in the beginning, we got three, three classes we're offering. The one is called foundation and fundamentals. And that's the one you were kind of talking about that. You could do that with a lot of dogs. And that's what you're saying. The one is called foundation and fundamentals. And that's the one you were kind of talking about that you could do that with a lot of dogs. And that's what you're saying, any dog, hunt dog, house dog, whatever.

Any dog would benefit because it's all that early stuff, that exposure, putting the foundation blocks underneath it. Yeah. It'll go a little bit further into introduction to birds and introduction to gunfire. But, you know, in the beginning, like crate training, tie out, stay calming, touch, come

when called, early exploratory walks. Those are things that every dog should do with their owner. And people kind of get in this habit of like, they treat that puppy like a little kid instead of like a dog. And they, they tend not to expose it to enough stuff. And then all of a sudden the dog's six months old and goes to the dog park and the dog's, you know, he's in the corner, you know, without the confidence.

So foundation and fundamentals is like the core class. And then, Brody, you might know this a little bit. Yanni doesn't do it, and I'm sure Clay doesn't do it in the hound world, but in the retrieving world, it's a thing called the trained retrieve. If your dog is a sloppy retriever or doesn't pick up game or picks it up and drops it 15 feet from you, um, there's a process to go through to clean up that retrieving called the trained retrieve. And that's got 16 different parts to it, you know, but so that, that's a separate class. A person could buy that class.

Got it. Um, if they just like, Hey, I don't care if my dog's steady and he's a pretty good dog. He lets me clip, clip his nails and he's already crate trained, but I wouldn't mind some better retrieving out of them. So you could do that class. And then what piggybacks onto foundations and fundamentals is advanced bird work. That's where you would see a dog that not only would hold point, but learn to relocate on birds, learn to hunt with another dog and back and

honor another dog. Yeah. It's like, it's like in a pointing dog world, if a dog's on point and another dog sees it, ideally that dog is going to point the dog that's pointing the bird. He's like, oh, he's at work. I can't sneak up on him.

Let him get his work done. My dogs don't do that. I mean, if I can get it ready for a test, I could do it, but I don't, I don't sneak up on him. Let him get his work done. My dogs don't do that. I mean, if I can get it ready for a test, I could do it, but I don't, I don't hunt them that way. Yeah.

You know, I just try to get good, try to be a better wing shooter than I am dog trainer. To be honest with you. You, you mentioned Yanni's dog. I think the interesting thing about,

um, what Mingus is supposed to do or what Clay's coon hounds are supposed to do. Yeah. Is a bird dog is supposed to, he's kind of coon hounds are supposed to do. Yeah. Is a bird dog is supposed to, he's kind of got to know all these things. Right. Yeah.

Like just a lot of commands and stuff. Right. Like the hound dogs. They're kind of. It's like they either. It's like, no man, you got another,

not that it's one thing. Right. Right. But all this stuff about sitting, healing, rolling over, shaking hands and all that. It's just like not part of the conversation.

Right. You know, it's like. Did shaking hands and all that. It's like not part of the conversation. Right, right. It's like. Did you do anything like that, Yanni, with him? Or were you just trying to get him on a raccoon early on? Yeah, no, we still, I mean, I want him to be a good family dog first and a good companion. So I try to be real harsh on him with like when we're running together. Come when I call. Yeah, come when he calls.

We did a lot of work on the, what's the long rope called? Lead rope. In fancy terms. Yeah, lead rope. So you do do some of that house dog stuff. Oh, yeah. I guess because it is your house dog. Yeah, exactly.

Clay, you must have because I used to watch, you did some of your YouTubes and one of your dogs was always behind you during your podcasts and during your YouTube stuff. Did you do a lot of obedience with your hounds? Very informal obedience training. That particular dog and a lot of these dogs I'm hunting are just naturally pretty obedient. And, you know, so informal training.

Right. Just by them being around me so much, you know. So what that is, is like dogs get certain things inherited and that's called cooperation with a dog on our scorecard. And so a cooperative dog isn't a real challenge to live with if they're a cooperative dog and then a little bit of overlaying sit when stay or wait till I give you a food bowl.

But there's a lot of dogs that have a super high desire, like their desires at a 10 and their cooperations at a two. And so they're, they're like, I hate to, I always analogize kids to it. They're like that kid that can't sit down in class, always getting yelled at, always getting put in a hall.

The teacher's like, oh, we got to put them on Ritalin. Yeah. You know, that's kind of like there's bird dogs and hounds, I'm sure that are much like that. They're almost like a, it's like a three ring circus getting them in and out of the truck and where I would venture to say that you could tell your hound dogs to sit,

open one door and load one up if you cared to do it. But I've never really spent any time with a lot of houndsmen, a little bit. You know, there's, there's, there's a lot of variants in the hounds. Some of them are not, and I've heard the term used, biddable. Same thing. Trainable. There, there, there's some strains of hounds that are just, and I've heard the term used, biddable, trainable. Same thing, yeah, yep. There's some strains of hounds that are just not interested in that. They're just not that good. Not to say it couldn't be done, but primarily it's an issue of function.

We just don't use them that way, so we don't need them trained that way. But I think even if you could train them that way, it did, they would never be, most of them would never be as good as maybe some of the bird dogs that have been bred for so long right to be cooperative right right i know i i got a dog question for you yeah then uh we'll open up everybody else got specific dog questions but first i want you guys where do people go find the. Well, you just, you know, type in Upland Institute. And. What's the, they'll find the website if they do that. Yeah.

www.uplandinstitute.com. Okay. That's the name of it. Yeah. And it's available. When people are listening to this, it's available. It should be available. It's about polished up.

If, if for any reason it's not available, you know, you can just put a email. There's an email signup page and notify me when it is, but. And it's like an a la carte transaction. You pick the things you want and download it. Right. You pick the courses you want and you download it and it's yours for life. Got it. Ron, I'd like to commend you.

Only, what, four episodes being on the show? You picked up all that knowledge as a photographer. It's well shot. It's pretty. I'm impressed. I just thought he was drinking beer and fondling his shotgun the whole time. Yeah, but no.

He was taking notes. I did take notes, and I was always shocked with your videographers in the field. And I remember you told me too, editing's got a big thing to do with it. It's all got a big thing. That's not to demean. I mean, it's all got a big thing to do with it it's all got a big that's not to demean i mean it's all got a big thing to do you got to still be good with the camera but when we

start like day one when we started doing this i went out and bought a gopro and like called up my son-in-law who he's a an editor for another hunting company and uh he said what'd you get a gopro for i said well i wouldn't, no, you need a movie camera. And I called up, I think it was Rick or Garrett. One of them was real good. He got back with me and he, he told me the brand of camera that we shot in Montana. He said, that's, you'll be able to figure out how to use it. It doesn't have too many features, but it'll, it'll be everything you need.

So then I went out and spent a bunch of money on the camera. Hmm. And then I was like, well, we got to do this now. Yeah. You know, because this. I'm invested. I'm invested, right. And just, it just, yeah. So there was a secret to a lot of it.

It's called the tripod, which you guys, we never carry tripods for the camera guys out there. But whenever I could set something up, because we kind of know what's going to happen. Yeah, but what you're doing is instructional, so it's different. Right, right. We'll shoot off sticks,

like they'll shoot off sticks down there on food stuff, but generally we like that kind of like. Moving around. Like it's like you're with a buddy, you know what I mean? The rawr. Yeah, like it feels more human to human. You know, it has more of a, like a present quality to it when it's free hand.

Yeah. They don't call it free hand though. What the hell they call it? Yeah. Free hand. Sure. But I appreciate it. Can I ask you my dog?

Oh, go ahead. No, I mean. Yanni never, he doesn't compliment many people about anything. Well, I do appreciate that. And I also found out that, I also found out that editors. Well, I'm just saying. He doesn't throw them around. Let me put it differently.

Yanni doesn't run around giving compliments where they're not due. All right. Well, then I... Yes, it is... So if you get one, you're doing good. Visually, it's very pleasant to watch. It's well edited. He doesn't blow a bunch of smoke.

No. Can I add this in now? I was told recently that I'm stingy with my likes on the Instagram. People notice that. Can anybody corroborate that here? Listen, I like it because you don't run around just shining everybody up all the time. And when there's a compliment, you pay attention to the compliment. It's an earned compliment.

I feel good when Giannis hits the like button on mine. Steve never does anymore. Oh, come on, dude. You don't know what I do. Oh, oh, let me get my other shit in this plug and I'm not that fond of the platform. Go ahead. I should have said this.

So we, we are going to start an Instagram account for that, but that's not something I'm counting on. I'm advertising this in magazines and partners of mine and from the podcast. So all this information will keep coming up on my Instagram count, which is the hunting dog podcast.

Don't go to my name, go to the hunting dog podcast. Cause that's your IG handle. That yeah. No underscores and slashes. The hunting dog podcast. The hunting dog podcast on Instagram. And we'll put up notifications and clips and

stuff like that. So you can also get information from that. Glad you said Instagram. Here's my dog question. I kind of know the answer to it, but I'd like to hear what you say about it. Our little dog will heal for me. Okay. And it'll heal on command.

Off leash or on a leash? Either. That's impressive. It does it farther away off leash. Sure. Because I don't have the ability to get its attention. Right. But it kind of knows what I'm talking about.

Right. On leash, dead nuts. But it won't do the command for other people. Right. But in like sophisticated dog training, I'm guessing that you like, do you guys, um, do you guys view it that a dog should be that any handler should be able to come in and get it out of the dog? Or is it handler specific? I would say if somebody had a dog that was really well-rounded, I could probably take him to a test and pass him and healing is in the test. So he would probably acquiesce to say, okay, he's my owner today.

But most dogs would act differently without their owner. I get it with the differently, but like a properly trained horse. Yeah. It's almost like horse people are probably going to, I should have ruined this by my sister-in-law. Right. My understanding of a properly trained horse is that riders can be interchangeable. Yeah.

There's a style of riding. A rider should get on that horse and it shouldn't need to figure out, you know, it's like, this means that, this means that. And the basics are. The squeeze the legs mean this, the reins mean that.

Yeah, like these basic commands that if you're a rider and you ride a certain style and a horse is right, you should be able to be functional with the horse. But I always see dogs that they're just not going to listen to most people. And then there's a person to listen to.

Right. And I think that just comes from them being a pack animal. Like somehow you've established yourself as the alpha and the dog kind of understands that. And like, well, when Steve tells me that he means it. And if the kids tried to do it, you know. I bet you, you probably work more with a dog than the kids do. Is that true?

Well, when I, when it doesn't do what I say on that leash, it doesn't go unnoticed. Right. By the time, you know, I'm like. Right. And that's how you snap. I give it a little, no, I mean, I don't need to do anything.

No, I just need to like. Yeah, just tug. Give it a little jiggle. And she's like. Oh yeah, I'm good. I don't think she likes it. Yeah. I think when I got her on a leash, she's like, ah, damn it, I don't need to do anything. Now I just need to like. Yeah, just tug. Give it a little jiggle. And she's like. Oh yeah, I'm good. I don't think she likes it. Yeah. I think when I got her on a leash, she's like,

ah, damn it, this guy. Right. Probably is like that. Dog, given themselves, they'd just be like a horse. So given, if a horse had his choice, he'd be out in the pasture, he wouldn't be rode. Come on, think about it. They're like, really?

I got to carry your dumb ass around all day? You know? And a dog is the same way. Like if you didn't do nothing with a dog, the cooperative ones are going to be able to be lived with and the wild ones are going to drive you crazy. They're just always going to be into something because there's no structure.

It goes right back to kids. No structure, no foundation. You're dealing with problems down the road later on. Yeah. I had a guy say something interesting to me the other day about kids and we were talking about having rough dads. He was saying that, you know, after spending his

career in public education as an administrator and then having, you know, his own family as well, he said, I used to be worried about being too hard on my kids. But after the things I've seen in my career, I realized that the people that are too hard on their kids have it just about right. That's kind of, that goes with dogs.

You gotta be, there's a, there's a point of, no, you have to, I'm the boss. Yeah. And you're, and you're not. Yeah. I remember, um, yeah, you probably don't even remember this, but I remember you, uh, uh, and talking about, cause you had kids before I had kids, you know, you're a tad older than I am. And, uh,

two tads. Yeah. And just your thing about, um, I'm not here to be your friend. Right. Oh, we'll do that later.

But right now this isn't about us being friends. Right. Oh, it drives, when I would, you know, I would go on those rants and raves. It's like when somebody is like,

oh, I want my kid to be my, their best friend. Like, well, then your kid doesn't have one. Cause if you're your kid's best friend, man, he's a lonely kid. Your best friend should be in a pup tent when they're 12 years old, sleeping in the backyard.

Shouldn't be you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My kids are my friends now. Yeah. Yeah. Probably cause they weren't back then.

They're like, man, he finally likes me. I mean, I didn't even go to sports games, you know? It's like, I didn't join tennis. Why would I go to a tennis game? I'm not interested in tennis. No. I wanted to join baseball when I was a kid. My dad says, you're terrible.

You can't catch or anything. And I'm like, yeah, but my best buddy, Rusty, he's in Little League and I want to go in Little League. And he goes, all right, all right, fine. We're going to get you, but you're going to every game and every practice. He never showed up to one. Yeah. It was my job to get on my bike and go there. And it was, it was miserable.

I kind of learned a lot. You probably don't even realize this, but I actually like picked up like a handful of, I didn't have a ton of exposure to you and your kids because we were working and stuff. Right. Or hunting or whatever. Yeah. But I picked up a handful of like um it's hard to explain it just like i i recognized early on like a demeanor a way you spoke to your kids yeah uh i don't know there's like authority, but understanding on equal footing, but not, you know,

it was like, it was, it was a, you spoke to your kids in a deliberate sort of way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

there was not like sweet talk. No, no. It was always very conversational with them. Like kind of like leveling with them. I picked up on that. Yeah. You know,

I, like I noticed it even prior to having kids that there was a, it, it, it didn't seem accidental. You know, like I noticed it even prior to having kids that there was a, it didn't seem accidental. You know. It seemed like it was a developed way to deal with kids. Yeah. I'll give Sue most of the credit because I was working on the road, but that way of being, I mean, literally I'd get compliments. I could take my three girls when they were 10 or 12 years old to a dog test and I never had a, they weren't climbing on anything. They weren't starting trouble.

They're just, they occupy themselves. You know, it just, it's just the way you raise them. It's funny how you wind up making it your own. Like my boy the other day, we were on a plane and he wanted to get a water or something. I said, we'll go up and talk to that woman up there and get a water. You know, a while later she comes back. You have the nicest boy. Right.

You know, makes my week. But how many parents would have said, okay, I'll go get it for you. Yeah, yeah. So you make him go up. Yeah, you're going to go up there and here's where you're staying and you're going to tell her this and get the thing.

When I came to your house last night, all three kids go up and, you haven't seen Ronnie in a long time, go up and shake Ronnie's hand. Yeah. You know, and you know, the kids are like, oh. No, but I hope by the time they're 18, they'll do it without me, like, you know, not embarrassing them. They'll look people in the eye and they'll do it without me, like, you know, not embarrassing them.

They'll look people in the eye and they'll shake their hand when they interview for a job someday. Yeah. That's all you can hope for. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else got a dog question? I do. Yeah.

Can you teach an old dog new tricks? Seriously, like, in regards to, like, let's say someone, I've always wondered this. Like, let's say someone a there's a german short hair pointer that's a year or two old at the pound that was never it was just someone's house dog right they got rid of it right it's never kept chewing up the couch and what yeah and someone's like man i don't want to pay two thousand dollars for a bred puppy right but i'm gonna get this dog from the pound and turn it into a bird dog. Like, can that be done? Oh yeah.

Really? The problem is if you adopt a dog, and I think Yanni can probably speak to it because he, he adopted a hunting dog. A brand new one, but no idea what his background was. No background. So if you don't have the background, let's say

on that German Shorthair. Yeah. Like an older one. It might come from what's called a, what we would refer to as a show line. Like, so the dogs were in a show ring and really not hunted for the last, that dog's parents, grandparents, great grandparents, they just

didn't hunt much. They're still going to have instincts. They're still going to be okay. But you could certainly get a dog from a pound. And I know there's a guy who rescues dogs or his dog, his wife does. And he, whenever a, like an English setter, an English pointer or something shows up in a

sporting dog world, he takes it in and he hunts with them. They can, they can learn obedience, you know, like their genetics don't expire. And they can learn the scenting and all that. Nothing, no genetics expire. Right. The nose is going to be there the whole time.

The love of birds. It's like, like the big, here's one. I, again, I love analogies. My biggest problem is when people call me up, they'll ask those questions. Like, can my dog still do this? And I never did it. Yes. And then the other one is I got this brand new dog.

When should I get it into birds? Everybody wants to see their dog point a bird first, right? So my buddy says, oh, I got some quail, or there's a hunt club over here. They'll let you go after a test, and we'll bring your puppy out there. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. You want to see it once. But people overdo it, and they're like, so Ron, you tell me I don't need to get my young dog in front of birds, and I always tell them, you know, did your dad leave a Playboy magazine on the counter?

So you, when you hit puberty, you would like it. No, I mean. Yeah. I understand the answer being no. Right. You don't need to expose them. The difference in a dog and a kid is the dog gets to be a teenager by the time he's 10 months old. And a teenager takes 13 years.

Yeah. But again, throwing that Playboy magazine in front of them, that's not what they need. They need the shaking hands, waiting to be released. They need. Opening the door. They need the structure.

The, the, the pointing instinct and the love of the game is genetically in the dog. Got it. Yeah. One last question. Yeah. What's the, uh, what's the advice you'd give to any new, either new dog owner or anyone bringing home a rescued dog, a puppy? Like what's the thing they need to get on?

Well, for one, always crate training. You know, if you, a lot of people try to do it without a crate. Crate training is super important for a young dog. Define what that means though. Okay. A crate would be like a portable transportation crate. Okay. You'll see them on airlines.

They call them airline crates. Getting a puppy used to sleeping in that crate by himself, learning not to, it helps them to not develop separation anxiety. So training meaning he's comfortable in there. He's comfortable in there. Now his first day in there, he's going to bark and squawk and yell. And it's just like the first time you put a baby in a crib when they're old enough to cry.

If you are putting them down for a nap and they cry and you go in and get them, what do they do? Oh, I cry. Mom comes get me. So if your dog's crying in the crib. Oh, we used to sit down on the couch. And just tough it out. Just basically crying ourselves. Right. Oh my God, to sit down on the couch. And just tough it out. Just basically crying ourselves.

Right. Oh my God, they got to go to sleep. This is so painful. It's exact same thing with a puppy. You got to, you just got to put the music up higher and let him cry himself to sleep. And then the next day he'll fuss a little bit more or a little bit less.

And then after a while he's like, oh, that's where I go when it's not my time to be with people. And then later on you'll see it's real common. If you have a crate in the house, like if somebody comes over, you got a dog that you don't want or a baby comes over, you know, a little toddler, tell a dog to go to crate. But you'll find like my wife's dog, you're like, where'd the dog go? And you look at the crate doors open, he's in there sleeping. It becomes his little.

His zone. Yeah, it's his place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, crate training and socialization being try to do as much as you can with the dog. Get the dog in front of other people, let other people handle it if they're willing. Try to get your whole family, even if you got

young kids, try to get them all to do a little of this hands-on stuff. So that dog kind of goes a little bit down the pack line. It's like, oh, even a little toddler has to look at my mouth. Jeez, what's. Yeah, I was saying how our dog won't look my

youngest in the eye. Right. He tries to act like he doesn't exist. He's like, oh no, that's a guy. He's like, yeah. And looks off in the corner. And I'll bet you somewhere along the line, your youngest just kind of grabbed his tail or

something and he was like, what's that thing? He's like, I can't bite him, but I don't, I can't, they can't make me look at them either. Nope. Nope. Can't bite them, but I don't have to like them. Okay. Ron Bame, Upland Institute Project Hunting Dog Podcast.

Ron Bame. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Steve, for having me come out and getting to spread the word with you. Anytime. Almost anytime. Anytime. Anytime. Anytime you want to make it out here. Anytime and getting to spread the word with you. Anytime. Almost anytime. Anytime. Anytime you want to make it out here. Anytime I can get a hold of Corinne. Get a hold of Corinne. If she can schedule me to come out. Provide her with something

that titillates us and you'll be on the show. We could do a whole other one. It would be nothing to do with dogs. Just all those things that have happened to me that are... You see what we're working with here? You got to wait until you can fill up a thing full of titillating subject ideas. And be warned, next time you're here, we're going to have our little dials with a light in the middle. Yeah.

So you'll be getting. Oh, Ron will probably break that thing. Oh, yeah. It just depends on the story. I'll see you come to the door, and I'm just going to turn it to full blast. That's it. Red light. Thank you, Steve.

Thank you, Yanni. Thank you, Brody. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Phil. Good seeing you, Ron. Thanks, Ron. Thank you, Corinne. Clay Newcomb.

Newcomb, thanks for joining, man. Thank you, Clay. Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure. It's good to see old Ron. Love you, Phil. Good seeing you, Ron. Thanks, Ron. Thank you, Corinne. Clay Newcomb. Newcomb, thanks for joining, man. Thank you, Clay. Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure. It's good to see old Ron. Love you, Clay. Yeah, Clay and I talked five years ago when I first started the podcast.

That's cute. You didn't know him at all back then. Yeah, it's true. We go way back. All right, boys. See you. All right, see you. See you.

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