The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 284: The Archer's Paradox

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Ed Ashby, Garrett Schlief, Todd Smith, Corinne Schneider, and Janis Putelis. Topics discussed: a doctorate in eyeballs; how young bull rhinos will not breed as long as old bulls are holding territory; hunting and eating anything that moved in East Texas; shooting apples off someone's head with a bow and arrow; buying into the compound bow wave; a grain is 1/7,000th of a pound; the cryptocurrency called Bear Grease, trading in eeles; resistance quadruples as speed doubles; aiming for the pass through shot; the importance of dissecting the unsuccessful shot; the Twelve Factors; getting off on kinetic energy and how kinetic energy at impact counts; long points and bleeder blades; the Natal Study and Doc's research leading to South African legalizing bow hunting; skip angle; the Ashby Broadhead; Ask Ashby; and more.Connect with Steve and MeatEaterSteve on Instagram and TwitterMeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeShop MeatEater Merch Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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First Light. Go farther, stay longer. Okay, we're recording remotely right now from Kerrville, Texas in a hotel thing. Like a very bland, stale hotel meeting room with the not very bland at all highly esteemed Dr. Ed Ashby from the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

who has developed lifelong expertise in arrow and broadhead technology. But before we get to him, we got to talk with our buddy Jason Phelps, who's been on the show a bunch of times, including some of our most popular episodes ever. When he comes on and explains what elk are saying when they make noises, how to mimic those noises. And of course, you know, from Phelps game calls. And you know what? Yanni, what was the tell people go how to find that hunt you did with you and Phelps.

The YouTube hunt. You can go to MeatEater's YouTube page and find the latest season of MeatEater hunts. It's the first two episodes. Part one and part two. When I was talking about call in action when i was talking phelps he's all nervous he keeps watching to make sure your

elk episode out in view metrics he doesn't want it to get it's i guess it's like neck and neck between your meteor hunts mule deer episode and your meteor hunts elk episode he wants that one to be number one yeah he's got real strong opinions about why it should be number one, and he thinks squirrel hunting is stupid. If you make a squirrel hunting one, and it whoops that one, that would

be time well spent. I've got one planned for this fall, so get ready, Jason. Okay, so Jace Phelps, what's wrong with plastic bugle tubes why why did you want to mess around with an aluminum bugle tube yeah up until this point we had all all relied on plastic um to try to get a high pitch um you know those that are familiar with oak vocalizations like a bull beagle gets to a very, very high frequency up around like 2,500 hertz.

And we've always used plastic and harder plastics to try to get there. And so the idea came about where, well, if we used an aluminum material, we would be able to get to that frequency maybe better than plastic would get there. So nobody had used it. And then the idea of trying to solve a problem that we had with plastic beagle tubes. The other thing that it did in a roundabout way by being able to get to a higher pitch, we were able to put like a neoprene sleeve on it, which fixes another issue of bigger plastic tubes. They're extremely noisy as you walk through the woods. If you hit a tree, if you hit brush, as they drag through the brush. So by putting the neoprene sleeve on the aluminum,

we were able to kind of make a hybrid system that solves a couple of issues we can maintain the high note keep it quiet the end result is a very very loud beagle tube louder than i can be on my plastic tube so it is an effective tool out in the woods where you know i got a better chance at getting a response from a bull at a further distance and And then we had one shot. We've been also working on attachments called the easy bugler mouthpiece and the flared mouthpiece. And we didn't have the right system to attach those two. And so during this aluminum design process, we were able to design it to accept these attachments, which will really assist people that can't put a diaphragm in their mouth to be able to still bugle and be effective out in the woods. And so another thing about the metal bugle tube is it comes with like a mouthpiece

that what you call the easy bugler mouthpiece, which you make clear is for people that don't want to have, like, don't like to have a diaphragm call in their mouth, can't make a diaphragm call in their mouth. Yeah. Yeah. So right now, you know, the best way to bugle is to put an internal diaphragm, which consists of a piece of latex, a frame, and some tape to seal the call off in your mouth. And we create our bugles through that. One thing we've noticed over a lot of time, talking with a lot of customers, gag reflexes, people that just can't figure out how to run the call, their mouths don't work right, on and on. There are reasons why people can't run a diaphragm. And so what we designed is we've taken our, you know, very, very popular amp diaphragm,

taken the tape off and then created a seal inside of an external attachment. And all you have to do is put your bottom lip over the small air opening and blow. There is a little bit of skill involved, but it's at 10% of being able to run an internal diaphragm. You literally just have to put your lip over the bottom hole, apply different pressures, and blow through it to achieve a bull beagle. So it's very easy, and it solves a lot of issues that people have at running a diaphragm so i want you to compare what these different things sound like so take one of your regular diaphragms and hold it up to the aluminum bugle tube and rip right and then go ahead and crank one out with the mouthpiece and maybe do whatever back and forth you know so people can hear the difference between what they're what

you're getting with the diaphragm and what you're getting with the Easy Bugler mouthpiece, which you really just kind of put your mouth over and blow. Yeah, so we've taken this tube, had the Easy Bugler on it, so we've switched over to the flared attachment, which is meant for diaphragm collars got great back pressure it's easy to run and it's got great sound so we just went ahead and took the flared mouthpiece off um snap the easy bugler on and we'll give it a give it a go so one thing i can tell um by blowing it in my office here versus the first one and you may not be able to tell since we're going over the phone steve is that uh this is extremely loud um that

easy bugler was i don't know if it's 50 louder but it's definitely louder and it's it's it's evident by what my ears are feeling right now that that easy bugler is louder and i'm a loud diaphragm caller but i cannot get the same volume out of a diaphragm as i can that easy bugler mouthpiece so like i mentioned earlier i don't want to be a broken record but it's got some good utility out in the woods or an elk hunter trying to get something to respond. Yeah, there's a mark of difference in the volume and how well it carries. So you're either going to elk are going to hear it better or other dudes are going to know you're there and move away.

Either way, it's win-win. All right, man, we will talk to Jason soon. Take care. Yeah, thanks for having me. You guys have fun in Texas, and we'll see you guys soon. Dr. Ed Ashby, big-time researcher in arrows and broadheads. Wow. Ashby Bowhunting Foundation, right?

But you don't have a doctorate in that. You got a doctorate in eyeballs, right? Yep, that's it. That's right. Like a military doctor? I was in the military, yep. Spent almost 10 years in the air force then changed over to the public health service uh worked out in the indian reservations for a number of years

then i was in the area office covered seven states up in minnesota that area up in there and then i ran the eye care program nationwide for the federal bureau of prisons my last four years oh really so i did 26 years with the government long enough and then you went off to africa i retired liquidated everything i had in the states moved to africa got it and got into then he then he got into the broadheads and arrows well actually i was doing stuff like that long before uh i got involved with uh the natal study uh back in 84 and uh by pure accident pure good luck good luck has seemed to follow me the whole time i was uh i had written over trying to see if i could uh hunt a rhino with bow and arrow. And no, it wasn't legal, couldn't do it. What gave you the idea that you should have to even ask somebody

if you could shoot a rhino with a bow and arrow? Or who did you write to? Well, I wrote to the game department there in South Africa, asking about it. And then when they decided they wanted to look at archery and see about legalizing it uh there in the tall province they were having a meeting sitting around talking about you know how they were going to set this up how they were going to do it what animals are going to shoot and they got talking about the big animals what you know how big an animal could you take and

stuff and somebody there and i i still don't know which one of them, said, you know, somebody wrote me two, three years ago asking about hunting a rhino. So I think I've still got the letter. Went and looked in their files. They did. Contacted me and said, you still want to come try to shoot a rhino with a bow and arrow? Took me about 10 seconds to say yes. And so, you know, we set that up. I went over.

I did the rhino hunt. While I was there and talking to them and stuff, shot a few other animals on that trip, they said, look, this is what we're doing, and we're looking at if we want to legalize this. I said, would you like to come back next year? So let's repeat the rhino. And then you bring as many different broadheads as you can lay your hands on and we'll go into Macousie Park and before the rifle cull we have to cull animals

every year and we will shoot as many animals as we can shoot and we want to you know take a look at the effectiveness and what we turned out doing is they literally wanted us to take any shot that we thought we could make because they wanted to look at what happened when you made bad shots with different arrow setups and so forth and so we went in there and i think shot 154 animals in 30 days in in uh Makusi uh but we were backed up with a rifle for that so that if you shot an animal and you weren't sure it was going to be a lethal hit they would put it down with a rifle immediately somewhere remote from where the error was so that we could dissect the animal and look and see what the error had done

make a determination would it have been lethal, would it not, what happened, why was it not lethal. And if we couldn't determine, they had a couple of veterinarians on staff, that we could take the animal back into their shed there, the veterinarians would dissect them and tell us exactly what they found and make a determination, would it have been what they found, you know, and make a determination. Would it have been a lethal hit? Would it not?

It was a rather interesting experiment. It's rare to get an opportunity to do that. All the later research we had to do on freshly culled animals. But all of that initial was done on live animals, and most of it was on, oh, we did a few zebra and kudu and inyala, impala, warthogs. Most of that initial study was done on smaller animals other than the rhinos. What happened when you shot the rhino? They died. How quick?

They went a pretty good distance. The first one probably covered, I say it probably at least a half mile but we have much better air setups now than we had then then i'm working with no knowledge of of what's going to make the most effective air setup all i could go on was a little bit of historical data there was and nobody had shot a white rhino he's twice as big as a black rhino he's six thousand pounds instead of three thousand uh there had been a couple people shoot black rhinos um bill nagley had shot one and uh bob swinehart had shot one uh and of course howard hill didn't do a rhino but he'd done elephant and stuff like that

so i had to draw on what i could find in their writings to try to devise an error and uh i actually designed a different error for the second time around it was one eric hill and it went a little bit further it was a rather exciting story on him because i shot him from from six feet away seven feet excuse me away from my footprints to his with no rifle back up and so it was uh that's the only animal that's ever shaken me up after it was over what was going on as calm as could be after i shot him i like a leaf. Did it know you were standing there? Well, it was an old bull that had actually been dehorned. He's actually bigger than the first rhino, which was huge. It lived in this one valley. And so we were trying to take off only these old

bulls, but no longer breed. And every time we we would see him he would go out and he'd go through this mountain pass well we'd gone out that morning we dropped uh all the trackers off on fresh tracks to go look and see what kind of rhino it was which rhino it was uh see if it's one we're going to go after or not and there was just chris freeman and i left He's one of the game rangers there. And we came to that big basin. Look, there was that bull down there again. And Chris said, okay. Now, he's done this to us several times.

He said, I'll give you 45 minutes or so. I said, you go around to that cut he's going out in. He'll probably go out the same way. Then I'll try to stalk him real slow and easy just like we have and and he'll probably push right out through there and i did so i went up that draw and it kept getting narrower and narrower and it's real steep bank like 60 degree on both sides and as you got it right up to the end of it it opened up into a big wide area but there at the end of it there's two trails there's one that's about three feet up on the side and one down in the bottom and i look and all the tracks are on the bottom so i said well there's nowhere else to

go i got to stand on this upper track and so i get up standing there and I'm waiting and waiting pretty soon to hear rocks rolling rocks kicking I'm sitting there and I'm all ready and I cut my eyes around and he's about 20 yards from me on the upper trail and he comes on and he gets about 15 yards or so from me and he drops down to the lower trail to come out. And he walks by me as close as across this table. And they're big. You know, he's more than six and a half feet at the shoulder. So we're right there together. And I got nowhere to go.

You know, I can't climb this bank. Can't run out that way. Can't run that way. And is a rhino, sorry, I don't even know. Is a rhino known to like cause problems with humans like oh yeah yeah oh yeah they killed several people there yes i see there where we were hunting they had they had killed several including one of the game rangers had been killed but one stomping on them goring them stomping on them yeah most of they just hit

you and toss you around a little which is enough you. You know, can you – I also want to back way up and talk about when you were a kid, but before I do that, you mentioned him being dehorned. The second one. So at some point, someone tranquilized him and cut his horn off. Oh, yeah. Can you explain what you were explaining to me last night when we were having dinner about the deal with rhinos that can't breed? Yeah, the whole thing with rhinos is that they will live,

the bulls will live way past their breeding age, but they will hold a territory. Now, years ago, when there was all of Africa to roam on, there was no problem. You push off, find a new territory. But now there's people everywhere with little islands of animals scattered around africa so they have a limited habitat so unless you go take these old bulls off the younger bulls can't

establish a territory if they have no territory they will not breed how big is your territory so yeah pretty big you know so they have to have a lot of area and as long as that dominant bull is holding the territory, nobody gets to breed if he's past his breeding age. Does he still think he can breed? He's just shooting blanks? No. Yeah, he's still shooting blanks.

Yeah, he's now a sterile animal. Yeah. And he will live another 10 or 12 years holding that territory. So no breeding is going to go on in that territory that he controls so one way around that is cut his horn off and he can't defend it as well uh no they cut it off they cut the horns off to keep the poachers from killing him it doesn't work the the poachers will kill him for a nub of a horn you have to keep cutting it off just right down the skin level and even if it's cut down the skin level they follow up, find a dehornment,

they shoot it so they don't ever have to track it again. So the poachers are a major problem, and that's one of the nice things with the hunting program in there is that the rhinos are so expensive to hunt. They have a huge monetary value, so that monetary value is both to the the people that are on the land because a portion of that money if you're hunting on uh one of the campfire areas something like that is going to the local population and of course the meat's gonna all go

to them too or if it's a private landowner which a lot of them are on private ranches and so forth, it's a huge amount of money to him. So they actually hire game scouts out of their own pocket to go out and try to keep the poachers under control. But if that animal didn't have that economic value, they're not going to lay out all that money to hire game scouts to go out and try to control the poachers.

You've eaten rhino and hippopotamus and elephant and all that yeah does it all look like deer meat like what's it look like uh no actually the the white rhino is a grazer he eats only grass and uh and the hippo same thing they're they're both grazers and it's very much like range beef grass-fed beef all right it's very very similar meat and excellent meat excellent eating uh you also mentioned last night we were talking about uh bullfrog hunting yeah and you said you grew up poor you hunted for meat what was that all about like what were the circumstances when you're growing up well you know my brother and i we just thought it was great fun but uh we were basically feeding the family and you just didn't realize it so we hunted all the time and uh

dad was a he was a nra rifle instructor and so we you know i shot competition my first match when i was five years old and he used to when we were small and I've actually still got the.22. It was a 521T Remington, a real small little match rifle. He'd give us one.22 shell. And you go out, if you kill something, bring it back in, you'd have another shell. You can hunt all day. First time you miss, you're through for today. You can go back tomorrow.

Start all over again. What would you guys hunt for? Anything that moved. Where was that that where did you grow east texas east texas yep yep and you and you started in on bow hunting early yeah uh real early i mean like both early in terms of your age but also early in terms of oh yeah bow hunt like my dad always talked like you know he started bow hunting in the 50s you know and there weren't even bow seasons yeah yeah there weren't there weren't any special bow seasons early on and there were only two of us in the whole county that uh that shot a bow maybe the guy i ended up hunting with he was a world war ii vet named james hayes

and uh we could shoot a bullfrog and get a picture on the front page of the paper. I mean, big picture. It was a big time. Because people were just unfamiliar with it. Oh, yeah, and we did a lot of armament calling and stuff, and James shot a bobcat one night, and, Lord, it took up the whole front page of the paper. Stories about it, because a lot of people didn't even know we had bobcats in East Texas.

Oh, yeah. So it was great fun and then uh we'd come down and we'd deer hunt and then when they did get a deer season going um bob lee uh had a lease that he established the first bow hunting only lease in texas at wheelock and we hunted on that leash there with with bob lee when we say the first established they were like the first guys that thought to go pay for hunting access no no people paid for that but it was a lot cheaper than it is now i mean when i was yeah because you could go back in time and and rub that guy out yeah well when i was about maybe it would never become a thing yeah seven or eight years old we we would come down to this area, Rock Springs, Llano, Marble Falls, all through there.

Our year-round lease was $10. So we'd come down, we'd fish, we'd squirrel hunt, we'd turkey hunt. So that was a whole year-round lease was $10. So it's changed a good bit. Now, even back then, were you interested in, I mean, sure, you were interested, but when did you first start getting interested in tinkering with archery equipment? Oh, what really got me interested in it was when Howard Hill made the movie Timba, he toured the United States going to to schools doing shooting exhibitions to let people

know there's the movie in town and i got to see howard hill shoot and uh things they wouldn't let you do now you know we are all in the auditorium there and the opening thing was the target's up on the stage and he comes through the doors the back and shooting arrows over everybody's head into the target up on stage and that was back in the day where he'd have assistants you know hold stuff and shoot it out of their hands and put it on the head and shoot it off their head so they would go nuts with stuff like that now wasn't it uh burroughs william was it william burroughs that shot his wife trying to shoot apples off her head. Oh, goodness. I do not know. Yeah, like Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn author.

Wasn't that him? They got to drinking one night. So that guy, like his big deal was he went, he was the first guy to shoot a, I don't know about the first. See, that's the weird part about it. Like the first guy to shoot a, I don't know about the first, see, that's the weird part about it. Like the first guy to shoot a elephant with a bow, but there's research now that suggests that the bow had been invented.

Oh. Perhaps, you know, I know they say the bow and arrow was invented multiple times around the world, correct? Yeah. Like independently. But perhaps a way long time ago and after. Oh, somebody probably killed some.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you do have, you know, tribes there in East Africa that, like the Hadza and so forth, they hunt with poison arrows. Okay. But historically, as far back as people can remember uh they would build these deep cuts into the banks going down to the rivers so that hippo and elephant could go down there and they could stand above them

and shoot them as they came through these cuts and and who knows how far back that goes and a lot with the poison errors now those, you know, it might take them 48 hours to die, but they just follow the animal until he dies. Yeah, there's an old documentary I've seen. Oh, you've probably seen it, where these boys go out and stick a giraffe with a poison arrow. In the documentary, a friend of mine was,

she's an anthropologist, and she was doing work in Africa, and she sent this thing to me. And they just spent a couple days trailing after it. Eventually gets pretty sick. Yep, that's basically what they did. Yeah, kind of stands there sweating and convulsing and whatnot, and they could finally go in and kill it. But they stuck with it for days.

Well, that's why you have great trackers. And, of course, the best trackers that are left are probably probably the bushman and the hadza these tribes that hunt with uh with the uh poison errors uh there's not a lot of great trackers left in africa there's some uh they would be great by our standards because very few people in this country can track anything they have trouble tracking something through the snow yeah it's it's really pretty sad but some of the i've had the opportunity to work with some trackers that were just unbelievable uh that literally could track animals across what looked like bare rock i'm a pretty fair tracker but they would they would draw a circle says here. And they would explain what they're seeing, and I still couldn't see it. And I'm not a bad tracker.

Some of them are just, it seems superhuman. It really does. But there's not many of those trackers left. Did you get into medical school through the military? No, drafted. I was drafted in the last draft we ever had the united states special draft called 44 all medical people yep okay is that one of the ones where they start drawing numbers and it matches up to your last name and whatnot about the only thing i ever won

in my life was a draft lottery and they so they drafted you but you were already a med student i was already out of school oh i got you yeah i was deferred from the draft while you're in school and then got out okay your numbers up yeah did that did all that knowledge of anatomy and everything uh that you were trained in when you're in school did that all do you think everything that you were trained in when you were in school, do you think that that led you to start becoming interested in aerial lethality? No, I was always interested. We were a hunting family, and common topics would be terminal ballistics of cartridges and bullets and things like that. Even from the very start, we'd shoot an animal and uh you know dad

would want us to dissect it to see what the bullet did recover the bullet if we possibly could and so forth and i got into bow hunting and uh didn't think a whole lot about it uh really until uh i'd been hunting 25 years or so and all with traditional equipment and i decided oh okay it's about 1980 that i'm gonna get a compound now you know everybody's talking about compounds and the you know amount of improvement you had in the bow and how accurate you could be with it and everything so i read what i could find in the magazines and this that bought into it whole hog got uh it was a darton uh compound and you know got some light arrows and some multi-blade replaceable blade broadheads so they had those even in 1980 oh yeah they had replaceable broadheads were already a replaceable blade

heads were oh yeah very common then yeah the and it? I'm trying to remember, like, some of the ones. Satellites. Oh, yeah. Satellites had thunderheads. Yeah, I remember having a thunderhead patch on my jacket. Rocky Mountain. Rocky Mountain. What was the one that had six blades?

Razorback. Razorback, yeah. They had a five and a six. Razorback five, Razorback six. Razorbacks had, like, that plastic. Yeah. Had kind of that plastic cone. Wing on the front.

Anyway, the first- Hey, can I interject just real quick? It'll drive my dad nuts if we don't introduce our other two guests here real quick. Sure. You can just introduce yourself. Tell us what you do in 10 seconds. Todd Smith. I'm with Grizzly Stick.

Garrett Schleif. I'm the owner of Grizzly Stick. Garrett Schlieff, I'm the owner of Grizzly Stick Arrows. We've been working with Doc on his research for a long time. 15, 20, more than 20 years. Starting with your dad, more than 20 years. Starting backwards. Two generations of working on this stuff. We were kind of the first guys to really look at what he was building and then try to build equipment following what what he was doing so we didn't really have a

roadmap it was just more of yeah and we were learning as we went well we were still learning lots of we've learned a lot and we still are i mean it's still there's still a lot of unanswered questions. Yep. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yep. So when you, was your first, was that deal when you went to shoot the rhino and South Africa was toying with getting a bow season? Yep. What year were they thinking about doing that? And they ultimately did it, right? We went 84 and 85.

I shouldn't say a bow season. They were going to legalize bow hunting yeah but i mean it's it's surprising to me that they even had at that time a lot of countries in africa probably didn't they probably hadn't prohibited it because they just didn't have any regulations you could legally hunt were places that were silent on on ways and means there's only place you could legally bow hunt yeah that law in south africa was the first affirmative bow hunting law in africa in 86 so prior to that prior to that they had spelled out what a leader was no place that it said it's legal to bow hunt got you so if you want

if you look at look at those early hunts that everybody did, like Bob Swinehart and Howard Hill, they did them up in Kenya, which was still open then, Tanzania, and Mozambique. All places that were silent. That's like where the Adel Adel crowd drifts off to Alaska. Yeah. Or that dude that wanted to kill a bear with a spear. He went somewhere.

Yeah, go to Mississippi. Then after they did that, they clarified it. In fact, you can't kill a bear with a spear. Like, he went somewhere, and then they... Yeah, go to Mississippi. Then after they did that, they clarified it. In fact, you can't kill a bear with a spear. Yeah. Yeah, I got you. So South Africa was the first place in Africa to decide to do an archery. Yeah, after we did all the research and put all our stuff together and presented it all to the Parks Board,

they legalized bow hunting, and then just dominoed. Then it was Zimbabwe, and it was Zambia, and it was Namibia, and it just went on and on. Because they were afraid of losing business. Oh, yeah. Well, once they say, hey, these people are getting this bow hunting money in. They're making foreign forex is coming in. Let's get on the bandwagon here and get some of this.

When you earlier mentioned getting into compound bows, and you said, like, you bought in. Oh, yeah. You used the term, like, bought into all that. Bought into all what? To the light, fast arrows. You know, and what I had was beamers. Remember the little skinny beamers?

And that year, I hit and lost four deer. I had never done that. So I said, something's wrong. So I did what I would have done with a rifle. I said, you know, let's research. Somebody has got to research what works, what doesn't, other than just reading a magazine and seeing what companies are advertising and stuff that's

being pushed. So I was looking for stuff like Chamberlain's work with rifles and some honest research. Nothing. It didn't exist. So I decided, okay, I'm going to have to find out for myself. Now, this was about early 80s, before the Natal thing came up so I was already started doing stuff and looking at what was happening before the Natal thing well when the Natal thing just really kick-started me now I had a database

well I mean we had to really collect data to do these reports for the Natal parks board well by the time we did the Natal study, I had more questions than I did when I started that. And I found that all the way through 26 years of research is every time I do a new set of tests, I end up with a new set of questions of things to look at. And I'm still not through. That's why we established the foundation. Because after I hurt my back, I can't do anymore. So somebody had to take over and it's you're not gonna find many idiots like me i did all of mine out of my

own pocket every arrow every broadhead every feather everything was purchased by myself i wanted to stay independent of the archery industry which we still do we do not take donations from archery companies things like that yeah notice on your boy's website the grizzly stick website there's a note on the bottom that says uh because you have an aspie broadhead yep but a note on the bottom says you won't take any money from that broadhead nope not even a little bit nope that was a hard that was part of the. That was part of the agreement. That was part of the agreement at the beginning. You have to tell everybody in the world.

I had to agree to that or I wouldn't let them use my name on it. Yeah. And I'm not that smart, but I was like, that sounds like a pretty good deal. Yeah. All right. Yeah, the other covenants on there was. You didn't feel compelled to argue with him about it? No, not at all.

The other covenant was when we do the testing, if the broadhead works. Yeah. You can use my name on it. Yeah. The other covenant was when we do the testing, if the broadhead works, you can use my name on it with a disclaimer that I don't receive any funds out of it. Because unless you stay totally independent of industry, your research is tainted. And there's a lot of stuff out there, a lot of wound loss studies that were financed by the archery industry that come up with these incredibly low wounding rates by archery standards. They're showing 11%, 14%. All of the studies that were independently done by game departments

all show almost a one-to-one ratio. I would say with elk in america i'd definitely say that's the case i think it is with just about everything and i guided while i was in africa i did quite particularly when there's bow hunters i'm sort of a freelance guide so you know if they had too many clients i would go in or if they had bow hunting clients because there was almost nobody over there doing anything about bowhunting, then I would go in and work with whoever with their bowhunting clients. And I would say it's definitely at least one-to-one. In Africa.

With the equipment that people were bringing and using, yet you can cut it down to almost nothing. As I got towards the better era systems uh i out of the last 25 years where i have actual records tracking the animals that i've killed there's 627 animals four lost animals four i i get that but like it has so much to do with ask your question about consistency yanni because it has so much to do with like did you punch a hole through its heart like if you're if you're a very good archer taking very close shots you're going to have a very high recovery rate you you can't really always do that i was a ground hunter i've shot a few animals out of tree stands and stuff, but very few.

Stalker. Now, stalkers don't necessarily get set up shots. Now, my whole goal from the get-go was to find the most effective error system you could possibly use because a lot of the shots I took were shots that they're not broadside shots you know they're long quartering shots facing you shots moving animals you know i used to when i was a kid i mean we shot a lot of moving targets animals just as big moving as he is standing still target size still the same so i didn't have too much trouble at all shooting moving animals now we used to do a lot of bird

hunting and stuff flying birds uh willard bow didn't hit a lot of at all shooting moving animals. Now, we used to do a lot of bird hunting and stuff, flying birds. Willard bow didn't hit a lot of them, but you got a lot of practice. Running rabbits in front of dogs. And you can get pretty good on running shots. Good enough to shoot big animals. A big animal actually gets pretty easy after you, you know, practice on stuff like that. Nobody does that kind of stuff anymore um and a lot you know there were some things in there that uh i didn't have a lot of animals that were gut shots i've never lost a

gut shot as i got into these better era setups but a lot of that's careful management of after the shot of leaving it long enough of stalking the trail you know and and not spooking just like you're hunting the animal again to find it and most of the time if you give them 8 10 12 hours they're dead um as a matter of fact i don't think i've ever had one go beyond about 160 yards when i didn't pursue him he feels bad he lays down you give him time and he will bleed out there's a lot of think of your digestive system there is a lot of blood vessels in there carrying away all this digested food nutrients and so forth and the single bevel heads that rotate actually will wind intestines up around them and you get a thing called a starburst cut now i didn't know this till i was doing a lot

of the research but you'll get cuts that are five or six inches away from the path where the arrow went through where it's wound stuff up around it and made all these little cuts and i was doing that by taking dye in a syringe and injecting it into the intestines and looking at where the dye is coming out and so you get these huge starburst cuts in mobile tissues now you get some of that effect even in lung tissues where it just almost liquefies the lungs, just mushes it up. And I've got a lot of photos of deer that you will look at and think they were shot with a rifle because of the amount of bloodshot tissue. You do not get that with double bevel heads. Let's save the double and single bevel.

You want to get into that right now? No, I want to get into grains. All right. Explain to you. Are we there yet? Have we covered off on enough of how Doc did the studies? No. Okay.

But for people that aren't real familiar with arrow setups. That's true. I think that when he's talking about arrow setups, I think people need aren't real familiar with arrow setups. That's true. I think that when he's talking about arrow setups, I think people need to know what he's talking about. That's true. That's true. It's an arcane unit of measurement. But explain what a grain is.

Because you're going to talk a lot about grains. Well, it is a unit of measure. And there's 7,000 grains to a pound. What is that based off? Just counting up powder grains? Well, not counting grains, but that's where the unit of measure works out. That's what a grain is.

Yeah, but it's got to be. One seven thousandth of a pound. Yeah, but it's got to be. It's an English measurement. I know, but it's got to be something like some dude took a pound, some dude took a pound of granulatedulated powder or something no no it came from actual like seeds or seeds millet or whatever i don't know yeah i don't remember which one of

the seeds but it is a unit that came from yeah like a foot was like about as long as your foot yeah yeah so that's where all these weird english stuff comes from is you know what's a cloth yard what's a foot what's a yard yeah foot? What's a yard? Yeah. You know, there's a Clay Newcomb, our colleague, he was telling me there's an old unit of measurement called an eel. No kidding. I don't know how it's spelled. No.

Oh, yeah, he told me about this. No, it's a deer neck. It's a sack made out of a, it's a sack made from a deer's neck. A tan. And you would, and they would put. How much it holds. You would sell tallow. You would sell tallow in it and it would be an eel.

We're trying to start a cryptocurrency called... We're trying to start a cryptocurrency called Bear Grease and it's going to trade in eels. That'd be good. Bear Grease is useful stuff. Yeah, I know.

We've got a whole plan for this cryptocurrency, man. It's going to blow Bitcoin out of the water. Okay, so 7,000 grains to a... Can you give it in fractions? Convert it to metric, or don't you know how to do that on top of your head?

400 and... What is it? 30-something to the... Grains to a gram. Gram? It's something like that. It 430 something okay i can't remember exactly what point uh let's say the point being this most broadheads today most like when you go online and buy broadheads um you'll hit a little drop down menu and it's virtually certain that they're going to be available

in 110s and 125s. 110s. 100s. Was it 100s and 125s? Yeah. Those are common. If they got two, that'll be the two, right? Yeah.

And those are what? I mean, they're not an ounce. No. Fractions of an ounce. Yeah. And then the arrow, explain arrow weight. What would be the most, like currently today, most guys going into their archery shop and buying arrows

for a contemporary compound setup or buying arrows, and what would you say is? 350 to 425. Okay. Is about where they're going to be. And that is people maximizing speed? 350 to 425 is about where they're going to be. And that is people maximizing speed? Well, speed has been pushed.

Kinetic energy has been pushed. To get kinetic energy, because the formula squares the velocity, it looks really good. It sells. Speed sells. And the industry has pushed this stuff since the 1950s when the allen compound first came out and then the jennings compound and and those were the first of the compound bows and they were so much faster than traditional bows and then as they got them faster and faster and faster this is what people buy i met a guy

at the archery range when i was out tuning eras in australia who had just bought a new bow because this new bow was four feet per second faster than his old bow he spent twelve hundred dollars on this boat to get four feet per second, which is not going to make a bit of difference. It's the arrow that kills. I'd be much happier to go out here. There's an old Indian saying. Yeah, but it's the arrow that kills, but does it kill land on the ground? You have to propel it.

I mean, you have to propel it. Once it's in flight, it doesn't know what launched it. Correct. It can care less. The dam sure knows how fast it's going. It knows how fast it's going and how much force it's in flight, it doesn't know what launched it. Correct. It can care less. The dam sure knows how fast it's going. It knows how fast it's going and how much force it's got, but it doesn't take as much as you think it does to get it to perform. But, I mean, it still has got to be moving.

It's got to be moving. Moving one mile an hour isn't going to do it. So there's a point at, I mean, there's an argument to be made for it moving really fast. Well, there's an argument to be made for not moving really fast. Well, there's an argument to be made for not moving fast. Let's say it's moving at light speed. No. The resistance quadruples as the speed doubles every time.

Look at that math. Look at that math. The example is go down the road at 30 miles an hour. Okay. And stick your hand out the wind and feel the resistance. Now go 60 and feel the resistance now go 90 and feel the resistance it goes up as the square of the velocity increase so you get at 90 you got nine times the resistance you have at 30 yeah one of the things we're finding because we get all this data back in from thousands of hunters, over 2,200 buffalo shot now and over 100 elephant with these arrow setups.

We're seeing more pass-through shots with bows sub-70 pound than we are with heavier draw weight bows. Now, that's one of the things we're going to research. Something's happening. We don't know what, but it's a significant difference in the number of pass-through shots. Is it the tissue resistance going up at the higher velocity? Like, is it more flexion on the shaft? Are the shafts not stiff enough to handle the impact at the higher force? You know, What is it?

We've got to find out. That's one of the things on our list of research. Okay, Yanni, ask all about the research now. Oh, man, there's a lot of questions right now. Because I think just very quickly, because numerous times now you've said the arrow setups that we're using now. Yes. So we sort of, Steve, out what the, what like a contemporary, you know,

in this crowd seems to be an insufficient arrow setup. So explain what the, what a sufficient arrow setup is now that what we're talking about. And then also on the heels of that, tell me when, when all these other archers are sending in this information and data points, I want to know, like, is it just like a phone phone call and they're sort of giving you like the anecdotal story of what happened or is it literally they have a form no that they fill out for you I've tried having other people collect form data I start the forms and stuff and it you can't get people to do it it's a lot of work right

they just won't do it it's just too much picture uh we asked you you get pictures you get a lot of dissection pictures though people i try to push that if i could get every hunter every bow hunter to just dissect the animals he shoots and look at what has happened but more importantly if you ever get the chance to dissect the unsuccessful shots to find out when they why they fail that's where you really learn something yeah successful shot doesn't tell me much but anytime there's an unsuccessful shot it gives you an opportunity to find out what happened why did it fail and that's really where you learn to develop these better error systems if i take what i like to call a penetration maximized error and put it against what i would consider

a good error better than what most people are shooting today i can more than triple the penetration. That's 15 inches instead of 5 or 30 inches instead of 10. That's a big difference in penetration. We've got people out there with women with low 40-pound compounds getting 5 and 6 feet of penetration on things like edling, on quartering shots. It's incredible. Explain the arrow setups that they're using. Those arrow setups are very high FOC,

because most of them are short draw. What is that, FOC? It would normally be 30% or more with the arrow setups that they're using. No, explain the acronym. Forward, center, balance point. Oh, the FOC? That's the weight forward to center. And we actually established a bunch of those

because traditionally you had a low FOC and a normal FOC, which was 8% or 9%, and then a high one, which was 15%, sometimes as much as 18%. And as I got into the research, I had to develop some names for other stuff. So we went into extreme FOC, which is from 19 on up to 30. And above 30, we call ultra-extreme. Now, the reason I come up with those names was— Real quick, just explain the percentages you're talking about.

That's how much the weight, the balance point of the error is forward of the center of the arrow, the physical center. Yeah, but I don't understand how it's reflected in percentages and not. It's the percentage that it is forward of the center. And then you count from the knock to the front of the broadhead? No. Or is it just the shaft? You can use, both methods are used but the uh amo standard is from the throat of the knock to the end of the shaft got

it okay does not include the head yep so you're not talking about the overall setup you're talking about the arrow itself i prefer that one because if you take the same error and you put a field point on it and a broadhead on it they're going to be different lengths and you're coming with different foc percentages the foc we measure is a relative term just like the static spine of an error it does not tell you much dynamically foc actually is an aeronautical term and it's how far the center of gravity is from the center of pressure of an object in flight. Hmm. So we've just used that, picked it up in archery. Yeah.

Because it gives us a rough idea. Now, it works the same way with a plane. The higher the FOC with the plane, the more stable the plane is in flight. The harder it is to turn the plane. The lower the FOC, the more maneuverable it is. Well, which one do you want in your air? Do you want your air going all over the place? Or do you want it... Only if you have

a say in where it's going. Yeah. You want it to be as stable as possible. I listened to that analogy before in something that I was listening to you speak. And yeah, it's like a fighter jet. the FOC is very low. You take F-22 Raptor, can almost fly sideways, but a human cannot fly it.

He has to have a computer to do it. It's that unstable. But you take TC-130, it has a high weight forward. As stable as can be. A pilot can sit there and turn loose of it for two or three minutes and talk to you. That's the big difference, and that's one of the benefits of high FOC in an era. An era is always, once it leaves the boat, it's always flying. The medium that it goes through changes.

It flies through the air. It flies through the skin. It flies through the adipose tissue, through the muscle, through the bone, all the way through the animal. It's still flying. Until it comes to a stop, it's flying. Even when it hits the dirt, as long as it's moving, it's still flying. It's just flying through dirt now. So you have to get the concept of what it's flying even when it hits the dirt as long as this movie is still flying it's just

flying through dirt now so you have to get the concept of what it's doing this stability carries on through the animal this is where it really makes a difference in terminal ballistics to have that high foc is we now have a very stable error that is much more difficult to redirect, to have hit a bone and glance off at an angle. So the higher we get that FOC, it makes a huge difference. Now, it makes no difference in the testing we have so far, makes no difference as far as penetrating a heavy bone. That depends totally on the weight of the air,

how long it's able to push on the bone. But once it breaches the bone, the FOC comes into play, and that's where you get a huge increase in post-breaching penetration. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers. You're irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking a high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps

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on x maps.com slash meet welcome to the to the on x club y'all the archery industry's reluctance to look at what you have. Oh, yeah. You're divorced from the industry intentionally. Yes. They're coming around, though. Yeah, but, I mean, were you making your own broadheads? Like, how were you testing different setups that didn't exist

if the archery industry didn't produce them? The only single bevels out there was the Gri grizzly and i used a lot of and that's not what they made this is different when harry elbert used to make um and uh i mean that weight the different weight arrows how are you making those i was building them up i was waiting the errors with all sorts of different things like drilling them out and filling them and stuff uh some i feel some were double shafted arrows uh some internally footed arrows uh all sorts of ways to increase the weight on there and uh yes uh in the early days i made a lot of the uh when they weren't available steel inserts brass inserts had people make them for me machinist i wasn't good enough to make them.

I see, yeah. That's what I was curious. So you were testing things that didn't technically exist. You were testing things that weren't available on the market. Right, because I was finding, as I would do a test, and I would say, okay, we need to look at this. We need to look at this. Well, this isn't available.

You paid for all that out of pocket? Every bit of it. Even having hardness testing. Did you ever get married and have kids? Married twice, divorced twice. I learned. What did they think about all that arrowhead buying and all that? That's why I'm divorced twice, probably. How long did you stay married the longest?

13 years. That's not bad. Yeah. The next one was three years. I got smarter faster. I just had my 13th anniversary. Yeah. So you were saying that the heavy aero systems that you like, high FOC.

Yes. And you explained FOC, but then explain the rest of the aero system. Okay. Actually, if you look on our website, we'll go through them in detail there. It's the Aspie Bowhunting Foundation. Yes. You can go through the 12 factors that are there. We also have all of the updates that we did through the years.

Now, when people start reading those, and there's a lot of pages of them, they need to read the whole thing. Because some of the things early on that I'd look at the research and the data that we had and said, well, you know, it indicates it might be this, might be that. But we learn stuff as we go along. And things get better and better and better um as we as we do get more information on it so we we would find these new things that that needed to be looked at and that's just what we had to do and if we had to build something we built it

you know that's just what you did the hardest part was coming up with shafting. You know, good shafts. And the long process of every error that we've used in the study is tuned. Bear shaft tuned. Every one of them. Because without that, that's one of the high factors. You've got to have structural integrity of the error. That's the most important thing. Without that, it doesn't

matter if it flies perfect where you hit the animal nothing if that error breaks or a part of it breaks when it hits the animal everything's lost you've got no control over what's happening you're probably going to lose an animal and then you have to have perfect flight now those two things never ever change so you got to go through all this long tuning process for every error before you start testing it or your testing is no good and then you go down through all of the other factors and each factor they'll compound each other so that this factor adds a certain percentage gain and this factor adds a certain percentage gain. Well if you've got one of them there, you've got this gain, when this gain kicks in, it

takes in a portion of this gain. So it keeps adding up as you go to more and more factors. If you want to get the most out of it, you incorporate as many of the factors as you can. But the important thing is that anything you do out of these factors to your error setup is going to make it better. And you have, what, 12 factors?

Yeah, we have 12 factors in there. Can you go through some of them? If I get my notes out, I can. Because we're going to do that later today. Because I'll forget all of them. And they're ranked in order of importance. They're ranked in relative order. Yeah.

If you took in all shots together, the ranking will change under certain situations. For instance, the heavy bone threshold is right at the bottom of the list, because it's not important unless you hit the heavy bone threshold is right at the bottom of the list because it's not important unless you hit a heavy bone. But when you hit a heavy bone, it'll jump to the number three position. So there is some movement in these things depending on the shot. That's why you incorporate, you don't know what's going to happen on the shot. The animal's going to move.

It's rare we've got a lot of video footage here in texas shooting hogs and deer and stuff compounds fast compounds slow compounds traditional bows so far we don't have a video of an animal that does not move before the air gets there and most of these are 16, 18 yard shots. So if you look at it in slow motion, the animal is in motion. In motion, in motion, in response to the bow noise. Yes. And most of the time it's a duck and roll away. Duck and roll away.

From the source of the noise. From the source. But not always. Sometimes they'll completely reverse on you. Sometimes they'll actually turn into it. But there's always some movement going on in there. Really? There's not a single video? We don't have a single video of an animal not reacting at all.

Now, the only times I've ever seen animals not react at all to the shot was on a very long range shot that's all been small game varmint shooting varmint calling that kind of stuff uh where they might not hear it but we were going to do more i've done a little bit of research looking at error noise and you can quiet down the air a lot by different types of fletching. And we've worked out a fletching that we call an A&A fletching, very small, triangular shape. It'll only work with very high FOC errors.

The higher you've got the FOC, you now have a long rear steering arm on the error. So it does not take much fletching to overcome the wind shear of the broadhead. That's why you bare shaft tune. If it shoots perfectly, bare shaft it. And then you put your broadhead on there. The only fletching you need is enough to overcome the wind shear under all wind conditions. So I tune that fletching just like I would anything else. I put the broadhead that this arrow is going to be used with, and then I see how small I can go in that fletching

before I get unstable flight, and I go back up slightly. We actually use a thing called a turbulator, which is a little pinstripe thing that goes around in front of the feathers, about a quarter of an inch. Feathers do work better than veins because they've got higher drag and they're lighter, gives us higher FOC. The Turbulator disrupts the laminar flow down the air shaft, which creates increased pressure, just like it would on an airplane.

They use Turbulators on airplanes too, which will increase the pressure on the smaller fletching. And that has a much lower sound effect. So we're going to do a lot more research for that. That's coming up. Because you think they're responding to the sound of the approaching arrow too. I know they do. Yeah.

Take a big fletch and shoot it or rabbit it about 80 yards. Watch him perk up and move before the arrow gets there. Let him just go. Oh, the arrow gets there. Nothing's just going. Oh, here's it coming. Yeah. So you have to look at things like that. It doesn't sound too dissimilar from a hawk dive bombing in on it.

That's true. Very similar. Yeah. Yep. And so big fletching. Now, when I first started hunting and it started into this research, I had to use really large feathers because i realized

that at close range i had to get my air out of paradox to get the penetration up because i could shoot animals at 18 20 yards a lot more penetration than if i shot him at seven or eight yards what do you mean a lot more that's the paradox. The arrow is flexing. The archer's paradox. Let me give it a shot and then you can correct me. But basically, as that your bowstring starts to push your arrow, the arrow doesn't immediately start moving.

It first flexes. Your arrow does this as it's coming out of your bow. Like it bends in a sideways half moon arc. And then as it's coming out of your bow like it bends in a sideways uh you know a half moon arc and arc and then as it leaves it does that the other direction and then the other direction and eventually it straightens out and then flies completely straight but the paradox is that it's not that you think the paradox that you think the closer it is the better well the original paradox of course they weren't center shot bows was that in order to hit the target it is, the better. Well, the original paradox, of course, they weren't center shot bows,

was that in order to hit the target, it has to bend around the bow. It has to not be pointed at the target. Yeah, but that's not a paradox. Well, it is. It's paradoxical that you don't point at it to be able to hit it. Ah, there's the paradox. I was trying to figure out where the paradox is. I thought the paradox was you think really close is better.

No, no, no. It's actually the fact yeah on a traditional bow that you know and in some of the bows i use have no uh shelf for that reason let me use lighter air shafts when i was trying to get in a high fmc and the arrows pointed off like this to shoot out there i guess the the rifleman's paradox would be that if you're shooting at something at point blank range you'd have to account for the fact that your crosshairs are an inch and a half higher than your... Essentially, yeah. You'll be off by an inch and a half.

That's right. You'd have the line of sight and the bore axis, and somewhere out there they're going to cross, and then they're going to cross again. I'm going to dub the rifleman's paradox. Trade bargain. And because a lot of people don't know Archer's paradox, we also call it Shot Flex.

Oh. Yeah, and you get it again on impact. It boils again. Now it's hit. The front of the arrow has slowed down. The back of the arrow is still trying to push it forward. Now, one of the things we found with the higher FOCs is that they come out of Paradox when you shoot it much faster

because it's lighter at the back end. And when you hit the animal, most of the weight is up front. You've got a very stiff forward lever arm, and the back of the shaft is very light. And because it's very light, it doesn't push as hard. It doesn't flex as much, and it stops flexing much faster. So that helps you get increased penetration. Because when that's flexing going through a wound channel, it's having to push tissue every time it bends.

And it goes through a bone, same thing. It's trying to push against that bone. And that slows it down. Now, there's a couple of things you can do to see that real easy. You can take a dowel rod, long one. Get you a four or five foot one. Drill you a hole in the board and put it in there and get a rubber ball put the rubber ball way at the back end and pull it over the side and watch it go just like a metronome it takes forever to stop move it down about halfway

which you're a little more than halfway like most arrows are you know you can go a long time put it right down against the board and goes stops same thing happens with an error now you can do that with actual errors by drilling a pretty good size hole say five eighths of an inch or something and take two errors one with a normal foc one with a high foc very high foc Put it in there so the air is identical except for the FOC. Same shaft size, everything about it. Pull it over to the side, turn it loose, time it with a stopwatch, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, to drop through the hole.

Now take the high FOC when it goes tick, tick, tick, tick, thunk. Mm-hmm. Same thing's happening when it goes through a bone or a hole in a bone once you've punched a hole through there. They're very easy to see. You guys even use a Doppler radar when you're doing research? Yes, yes. We have, well, Daryl's got one, so now we've got three.

The foundation has bought two. And we've got a high-speed camera on the way. It might be here by now. When Rob gets home, we'll find out. A genuine high-speed camera, not a regular camera that's shooting 300 or 400 frames, whatever. This is 3,000 frames a second.

How does the... What do you do with the Doppler radar? It works like any other chronograph, but it will read the error at whatever range you want to set it for. So this reading is goes out so you can shoot one error by it and you can read the launch velocity you can read it at five yards 10 yards 15 20 30 40 out to where it'll no longer pick it up well it'll pick these doppler radar

like that will pick up a 30 caliber rifle bullet out to about 70 yards. So it'll pick up an arrow a long way out there. And we've just started doing some testing with those. Are you able to test it coming in and going out of something? That's what we're trying to work out a system to do. That's why we've got multiple of them. Because you're going to have to have one to read it going in and one to read it coming out. Because the animal's going to be in the way so we're trying to work out a system to do that uh so daryl and troy are working on that now

trying to come up with a methodology and uh having daryl with us who's a true i mean call him the rocket man he's true rocket scientist has worked for the government on all these, worked on rail guns and tank-penetrating projectiles and cruise missiles and all this kind of stuff for years. So he's very much into both terminal ballistics, but more so probably into flight ballistics. Are you going to hit us with the 12 factors? Oh, I was.

Yeah. I will. Okay, the very first one, the first four are really the ones, about the only ones I remember off the top of my head. The structure of integrity, which we talked about, which is an absolute must-have. That's going to always be number one. The second one is going to always be number one the second one is

going to be the air of flight i talked about perfect air flight you're going to have to have that the next most important overall is the extreme foc that's percentage, going to give you the biggest gain in penetration through soft tissues, post-bone breaching, so forth. The next one is the mechanical advantage of the broadhead. Now, broadhead has its inclined planes. It's a series of inclined planes on most broadheads. Some of them got some other weird stuff stuck on them. But the longer and narrower it is, the higher the mechanical advantage is. And you can think of it like wheelchair ramps. Wheelchair ramps are low and gradual because it's

easier to move a load from here to there. It will do more work with the same applied force. That's what mechanical advantage is. So if we get a broadhead that is a true three to one mechanical advantage, it will take the force of the error and multiply it by a factor of three. And if it's a two to one, you're multiplying it by a factor of two. Now a whole lot of broadheads are way down there, below one on some of them. So you're actually losing force from the mechanical advantage of the broadhead. What's the shittiest broadhead being sold out there?

Most mechanicals. Most mechanicals? Most mechanicals. Yeah, because those things got some. If I had my druthers. I mean, just going by what you're saying, they have a very low... Once they're deployed, they have a very low mechanical... And also the force of deployment. And we also have gauges that we're now starting to use that,

and we use it in some of our demonstrations, of letting people take their own broadheads and bring a hide and let them push it through there. And we've actually got a gauge you can put on there, and you can see the force required to push it through the hide. Yeah, there's a thing called a trap pan tension gauge? Yep, essentially, yep. Just press down and measure your pan tension?

Yep, yep. And it's really graphic because we have had people with heads that, with all the force they could use, could not push them through the hide. Wow. And then they take a good cut-on contact. Hold on, that would be like a chisel tip, I guess, is what's. Yeah, a lot of the chisel tips are tough like that, or the cone tips. Okay.

Yeah. Hard to push through. Very hard to push through. And a lot of the mechanical tips okay yeah hard to push through very hard to push through uh and a lot of mechanicals very hard to push through got very that blunt angle even when you get the front part through blades it trying to get them to deploy and then trying to get them through there and it takes almost no force with a good high mechanical advantage cut on contact broad head this sharp you can just push through with one finger. It's no problem. And all of that force that you save there of the error is force you can apply to more penetration.

So you want to get through all the tissues with the least resistance you can, which is basically what we do with all the factors. We're looking to maximize the force that the air carries. With every factor that's in there. I want to get back to that list, but I just have one. But I have one too. Okay, go ahead.

Go ahead. You've gotten a bunch in, so I think you can let me have one. Yeah. Because can you tell the story about, or because you talk about penetration, some people are going to say, well, at what point is it too much? Because if I go through both sides that's enough but i read something where you were saying that no it's definitely better because of uh what the was it the royal academy of veterinary science yeah in great britain uh they actually did some research

for what reason i don't know on errors i never did figure that out but uh if the shaft remains in it impedes the hemorrhaging if it stays in and the animal is moving it impedes even more the hemorrhaging but if it goes completely through the shaft is out and the hemorrhaging is freer now one of the one of the things try for yourself get you a ziploc bag gallon size three quarters full of water get you some barbecue skewers i'll see where this is going stick the skewers through look at the leak that's coming out you know start first just stick it in one side stick it in one side then push them all the way through both sides still in there now pull the two out and watch what happens this is essentially what happens if you go talk to any emergency room is that hemorrhaging or

leaking i mean there's both yeah because like for blood trailing is leaking yeah for blood trailing i can see it's having yeah well no there's it's different. Like it could still be bleeding internally, but it's not doing you any good on the ground. No, having the projectile in there impedes bleeding. Okay. Any trauma people, first responders, emergency room physician, if you have an embedded object, the first thing they're going to tell you to do is not remove it. It should not be removed until you have that patient in a setting where you can control the increased hemorrhaging that's going to occur

when you remove that and that's exactly what it'll say you didn't look that one up on the internet that's easy to find even internet knows that the hemothorax and the yeah oh yeah plus you yeah if the error has gone completely through it is now you have sucking chest wound collapsed lungs what do you do when you've got somebody that does have a penetrate shot with a bullet what do you do you put a seal over there you don't want to collapse that lung they've got to have that seal to be able to breathe so that's not what we want we want them to die we're not trying to keep them alive so you want that error to exit completely yeah and if they people talk about error staying in and moving around and causing all these lacerations and stuff well if it goes for

sticking the other side it's not going to move around much but even if it's in there if they'll dissect that animal you don't see a lot of that laceration it doesn't happen the tissues hold it firm enough and like we're talking about very mobile tissues lungs are very mobile much like intestines and stuff you know they'll move so that's a myth because i think that's something that if that a lot of people sort of accepted that, yeah, if your broadhead's just at least in there and the animal's running around, it's moving and cutting and it's good. Yep.

That's a myth. It is not there if you dissect animals. You don't see this massive laceration. It's like in our head we think it's doing this. Oh, yeah. You see the arrow flopping around when it runs off. You think, man, that's got to be cutting. Well, he's moving too. But the tissue's holding it, we think it's doing this. Oh, yeah. You see the arrow flopping around when it runs off. You think, man, that's got to be cutting. Well, he's moving too.

But the tissue's holding it, and so it's just going like this. Just staying straight, not cutting. So it's just not there. That's why I wish I could get people to dissect animals and look at it, and they would start to learn some of this stuff. But most people don't do it. They ain't got would start to learn some of this stuff but most people don't do it they ain't got the animal and get out of here you know and they very rarely look to gun hunters need to do that too get an idea how their bullets perform a lot of crappy bullets on the

market too i did a lot of terminal ballistic research for barnes bullets too so i've got quite a background in in doing terminal ballistics. But anyhow, we're on our list. No, I got one more. Well, never mind. Okay, go ahead. No, no, no. I'm still down.

I'm game. Go ahead. No, I'm still down. Oh, okay. Well, we're on mechanical advantage, but one of the things that people don't look at also is that your edge bevel has a mechanical advantage this is also an inclined plane if you've got a double bevel it's like that the most common back up a little bit because i think already we've probably maybe lost some listeners oh okay just to explain

like the bevel and this angle and and just like back it up to just 101 so we know exactly what we're do it off of knife blades and razor blades yeah basically most most double bevel broadheads are much like a knife blade most common angle is the same on both of them it's 25 degrees on each side you now have a 50 degree cutting angle when you get to a single bevel, one side is flat. You got a bevel on the other. Now we've got some out there with 20 degrees now. We're testing some of those in Africa right now to see if that'll hold up at 20. Now I worked, originally the gristies I got had about 35 degree, I think. And I worked with different bevels working them down and the lowest i could get to was 25 below 25 the steel wasn't strong enough to start to roll the edge so that was as

slow as low as you get but those when you get to 25 degree bevel you've got zero and 25. It is now twice as thin as a double bevel broadhead. Its mechanical advantage is twice as high. Now, what does that mean for you? Okay, a blood vessel is touching it. With the same amount of pressure between the two edges, the single bevel is going to slice twice as deep or twice as easily, whichever you want to look at it, as that double bevel because it has a higher mechanical advantage.

It does more work with the same applied pressure. By definition, that's what mechanical advantage does. But you have to have steel of a good enough quality for that edge to hold up. That's why a real premium single bevel head, you know, $100 plus for three heads, but you can at least reuse them. Look at the price of 500 Nitro Express rifle cartridges now. I have $400 a box of 20. You know, the broadhead is going to be one of the least expensive things of your hunt.

So is the whole arrow setup. You know? And why people scrimp on the one thing that's going to come in contact with the animal, I have never understood. But they do it. But basically that's where mechanical advantages

come in. I hope that's clear enough you'd understand the people most people really overlook the mechanical advantage the edge bevel it's a big one and another thing is that we talked about well i don't i would guess that right now if we looked at just picked a random 10 arrowheads on the internet that the edge bevel the angle might not even be listed under the specifications most of the time it's not it's probably not even a thing that people even think about yeah or know to think but that's something we track in this study we track the edge bevel of every if it's got six blades we're gonna have the edge bevel of all six blades listed there you know if it's got bleeder blades, four blade with bleeder blades, sometimes they have different angles ground on them.

So we've got that all track. And that's one of the factors you can look at is what difference does it make? And the one thing that we found when we were looking at single bevel versus double bevel, in absolute identical profile broadheads on the same era setup, is that the single bevels will give you more penetration both in soft tissue and drastically so in bone huge difference in bone because the rotating single bevel will pop the bone i think that we should uh you should explain the how a single bevel makes itself rotate when it hits an animal and bone. When it's flat on one side, okay, well, we'll put the bevel over here.

If it's flat on one side and beveled on the other, when you apply pressure to this side, as it goes through something, there's no pressure on this side, and it causes the rotation. There you go. Yeah, folks can't see that. Folks can't see that at home. The guy comes prepared. He's got a big old plastic broadhead now. But he's got a left bevel, but that's all right.

It's going to press here, but not here. And it's going to press here, but not here. Okay, so Doc, when he says press here, he's pointing at the beveled edge of the broadhead, not the flat edge. Yes. The torque generated is going to be proportional to the amount, if you're talking about a bone,

the amount of surface area of the bevel in contact with the bone at any given time. Now, there's also going to be a differential by how wide the broadhead is. When you get a very wide broadhead you're putting a lot more stress on the edge at any given bevel angle because you've got a longer lever arm coming out here torquing. So it's going to be more likely to roll that edge or chip the edge or whatever it's going to do. Now if it's got to do one of

the other you want to chip rather than roll a chipped steel blade is a whole lot sharper than a rolled edge roll edge that you saw your hand with it it's not going to cut anything but that's where you get the torquing effect when you have a double bevel you you've got even pressure on both sides. When they hit a bone, it has to push its way straight through. Now, with a high-speed camera, we're going to find out just how far it goes into the bone before it pops it with that torque.

Yeah, I think it's happening very quickly. I don't know that, but we're going to find out can i tell you something i was reading a thing one time where a guy was just you holding that thing the single bevel talking about that i was reading a thing where a guy was writing a paper on what he believed the prevalency of left-handedness was among Folsom hunters based on resharpened Folsom points that they assumed were hafted and that he was working with his left, holding the half with his right hand and working with the left. And I think they found that they had a higher prevalency of,

I think this guy suggests they had a higher prevalency of left-handedness. At least amongst the hunters. I can believe it. People do strange things. It's interesting anyway. Does that give you a good idea of what we're talking about with the torque generation? Yeah. That makes sense.

What number are you on right now? We're still at number four, mechanical advantage. Oh, you got all that rolled under mechanical advantage? That's like ABC. Well, not necessarily with a torque. That would come down generally further where we talk about the type of edge bevel. Okay, go to five. Okay, five is the shaft diameter to ferrule diameter ratio.

Right there. Your shaft goes into the broadhead if it's like this smaller you gain about 10 penetration as opposed to being even oh if the shaft is bigger you lose 30 okay penetration what what are you talking about that's easy to understand right what are you talking about is the the drag yeah like if you run your hand from a shaft down to the broadhead you definitely don't want it to drop off at the broadhead now that's further down the list too but yes broadhead profile arrow profile is important but that's the important one to have right there and we're going to do more research on it but in what the data we have now, it doesn't seem to increase very much in penetration once you're about 5% smaller than the broadhead ferrule.

But we've got a lot more skinny shafts to work with now. So we may come up with something new as we do the newer testing and find out that, okay, going down more, you might gain some more penetration. And the why, I'm guessing, is just that the broadhead has created a bigger channel than the arrow needs to go through. It's just pure drag. If you look at this coming down and having to bump up over an arrow shaft, now it's going to have more pressure against this tissue and shaft profiles

on there too as we look at shaft profiles if you have a barrel tapered shaft then is that a thing you can go and buy a barrel tapered oh yeah particularly in wood arrows and traditional arrows yes they're very common and been used for centuries and for various things but uh it'll it'll be you know one diameter here then it gets bigger towards the middle then it tapers at the back those will have the lowest penetration if you took identical errors for everything except the shaft profile same weight same broadhead shot from the same bow shoot each one 50 times and look at the averages. You're going to lose a significant amount of penetration. The highest penetrating is the tapered shaft.

The tapered shaft, the further it gets in, the drag of the shaft drops. Now, you have to remember, too, and that's why you can't. I haven't been able to find artificial mediums that work well. It's because you're shooting that arrow through a blood in an animal, through a blood-suffused environment, which lubricates it. You know how slick blood is. You've got blood on your hands. Try to hold your knife handle when you're gutting an animal. And it actually has a lubricating effect,

which is another reason we do our testing within 30 minutes of putting the animal down, not only for changing the tissue rigor mortis, but blood will start to coagulate. You no longer have any bleeding. When you shoot them when they're fresh put down, you still have some blood coming out of the tissues. You know what you guys might get into? A guy that sent in this thing about how he has a cadaver lab

or was in a cadaver lab, a human cadaver lab. Oh, yeah. They pump beef blood through cadavers to keep them, I don't know, freshened up. You could apply that to your guys' studies. Yeah, right. He's a lab guy. Talk to that Yeah, right. He's a lab guy. Talk to that man right there.

He's a sous vide. I do field stuff. They even do it at temp. So they use sous vide. Oh, yes. Warm beef blood and roll it through cadavers to keep them nice and fresh. He's making a note of that over here.

Well, yeah. Good idea. It's transfer of knowledge, man. It's yeah. Good idea. Science is the game. It's transfer of knowledge, man. It's transfer of knowledge right there. If the rifleman's paradox doesn't work out, then this idea might. You ought to patent that. Okay, what number are you on now?

Okay, number six. Era mass. The physical era weight. That's a real simple one from physics. The heavier something is is the longer it takes to stop period and as all it'll also gain more energy from your bow i don't care what kind of bow you shoot if you put a heavier arrow on there it's going to happen it won't be big but it's going to have an increase in kinetic energy

transfer which is the proper use of kinetic energy not what the air does from the bow into the air because all of the noise and the sound and the vibration you get with a light air the heavier air you go to the more it diminishes now i haven't gone all i've gone up to about 1600 grain errors and it's still showing that you're still seeing a small kinetic energy gain as you go to the heavier errors out of any given bow compound recurves long bows doesn't matter Works with all of them. And that air of mass is going to carry this additional force that it has received from the bow. And what we're doing with all these factors is trying to maximize the conservation of this force the air has derived from the bow

to be able to apply it to the animal when it hits. Because this is the end point. This is what really matters, is the terminal ballistics. And kinetic energy tells you how hard something hit. It doesn't tell you the forward motion of it. Kinetic energy doesn't have a direction. Sound is kinetic energy. Vibration of the shaft is the wiggling of the shaft,

the resistance of it against the air, the paradox. These are all part of kinetic energy. They have nothing to do with penetration because penetration is a directional force. And that's what you get with momentum. Momentum does have a direction. And momentum has to be met by an equal force of resistance before it stops. So the more momentum you can put into that error,

which is mass times velocity, not velocity squared, and not all of the momentum as far as penetration is concerned works out equal, the more of that momentum that is invested in the mass of the error, the more outcome penetration you're going to have because the mass of the error is not going to change. The velocity is going to decrease as it penetrates. But a significant portion of that momentum is invested in the weight of the error. And that weight of the error is going to carry all the way until it stops.

So even as that slows down, it's still carrying more momentum right up to the end. And that's why a bowling ball carries a lot more momentum than a baseball. What's the next one? Yeah, now if you talk about kinetic energy is one of my things i get off on because there are places that have applied kinetic energy as a standard for hunting animals and it is not applicable i'm sorry it does not apply take a baseball pitcher thinking a major league baseball pitcher can pitch 96 miles an hour with a softball. If you look at the laws where they apply it to Cape Buffalo,

that's legal to hunt Cape Buffalo with. That's enough kinetic energy. They don't penetrate worth a damn on a Cape Buffalo. It'll make them real mad and probably get you pounded in the ground. Oh, hold on. I got what you're saying. You're saying that kinetic energy does not apply to penetration. A Major League pitcher could take a baseball and get the right amount of kinetic energy.

He'll get more than enough. He's legal. He's legal. He's legal. Yeah. He's legal. I got what you're saying. Yeah.

And that's one of the things the industry has applied for years because that helps speed sell. They push kinetic energy because, okay, we get this error going faster. We've got more kinetic energy because okay we get this error going faster we've got more kinetic energy wow and okay you need this amount of kinetic energy now look at all the things where you can see on the internet where they tell you you need this much kinetic energy for hunting an elk and this much for hunting a deer this much for hunting a black bear show me one that tells you is that launch kinetic energy or kinetic energy impact nobody ever says now in our study we track the momentum and the kinetic

energy at impact as well as it launch it's the impact one that counts and that's one thing that that heavier error is going to carry out there is that increased momentum to give you the penetration you need, and that's why aero weight's important. Next factor, seven. We're up to seven now, is the edge finish. We did some testing where we took multiple layers of fresh buffalo hide, which is about an inch thick. You're talking like Cape buffalo, right?

Cape buffalo, Asian buffalo, any of the buffalo. Asian buffalo actually have a heavier hide across the shoulders and chest area. They're actually a tougher animal than Cape buffalo, bigger too, bigger heart by a full kg. But we made multiple layers of this and took a series of errors and we we sharpened them by different methods you're talking like you're just taking green hide green hide fresh green hide okay and sandwiching them sandwich them together hung them up truck to pull them up i mean they're heavy and we would shoot them with these ferris, with the edge sharpened by different methods. Okay.

And then we compared for each era individually its performance against itself with a different edge finish. Okay. And the worst edge is the old Howard Hill serrated edge, where you take a file and drag it back across the broadhead, and you make all these little what look like saw teeth run the file lately down once to make them point forward because first thing it does is load up with tissue and then it won't cut nothing yeah nothing at all file sharpened edges were better but they still do the same thing microscopically they still got i don't care how smooth you file it it's still got these little rough areas if you look at it or high magnification

and they do the same thing they load up with fibers and they get dull a honed and stropped edge as thin and smooth and sharp as you can get it is your best edge the thinness so forth for that mechanical advantage we're talking about earlier but honed and stropped where it is just there's not a rough place on it not catching anything not catching it and actually once you get good at sharpening as you get them that that finish they actually feel less sharp they're so certain yeah they no longer will grip at your tissue so they don't act they feel like they actually start doubling but they're not they're actually getting sharper mm-hmm and you know on the testing we sharpen every broadhead to

that honed and strop level otherwise Otherwise, the testing is not valid. Now, some broadheads that come in a package and say they're already factory sharp, well, we'll test them that way. But then when we have to redo them, we'll have to sharpen them and see what they do that way. You ever see fish hooks advertised as chemically sharpened? Oh, yes. You get all sorts of stuff.

I always buy that, man. I'm like, well, that must be pretty damn sharp. Yep. Would you say that most broadheads coming out of a package are sharp enough? Oh, no. Very few in the world are sharp enough. But there are a couple. There are a couple that are sharp enough, but not many.

And you like them spit-shined. You leather strop them. Oh, yeah. Not just... I use a horse-hide strop, which is probably the best leather strop you can get. Huh. I know that. The rump hide off a horse.

Cordovan. Years ago, that used to be... What did you say? Cordovan. Cordovan leather. Cordovan leather. Cordovan? Yep.

There's only one factory in the world that makes it into... Cordovan leather cordovan leather cordovan yeah yep there's only one factory in the world that makes it in cordovan leather is definitionally horsehide rump yep yep oh shit only one place one factory in the world makes it in chicago it's the toughest leather in the world huh and and i use uh i need to get i use double-sided and and one one side is uh finished with i put uh polishing compound on it uh 60,000 grit and the other side has nothing on it it's just the hide 60,000 grit 60,000 grit but the other side that has nothing on it has been sanded down with 10,000 grit sandpaper to polish it so that it's just a hard polished surface and that punches some buffalo hide that'll punch through some buffalo yeah with with incredible difference in the penetration that you

get but it was consistent with every error it didn't matter if it's a three blade four blade whatever kind of head we used the hone ised and stropped always penetrated the most. The file sharpened always was second. And the heel ones were always last. With all these different kinds of broad heads and different arrows, different weight arrows. But every arrow is compared only back to itself, not to all the other arrows.

So it was strictly the sharpening method that made the difference in penetration i got a problem right now so we're on seven yeah this is great and i want to open up a real can of worms but i want you to i want you to not take the bait too much okay so like set a timer because we were going to get into this heavy duty but we're not going to be able to because we're working. I like the list too much. Now, Yanni was mentioning to me, I didn't know this,

he was mentioning to me that you spent time in Papua New Guinea. Yes. Researching arrows. Yes. And I just want to bring up one anecdote, okay? Yeah. I just want you to like very quickly address um ancestral archery technology real quick and the anecdote is this you know the guy we bought rush off of yeah alex the one of the czars yeah his kid i think it was his 22nd birthday in 187172 his kid came out and went on a buffalo hunt with Custer yeah and Wild Bill Cody

afterward I believe it was a I can't remember if you Cheyenne a guy went out rode up alongside a buffalo bison not a buffalo yeah I know okay but if i said i was going if i said i was going to antelope hunt in wyoming would you be like boy i'm very confused right now or would you know what i was talking about yeah buffalo gets to be a very contentious term i know because a lot of people i'm using it when we talk about buffalo testing they think bison i know but i'm using it extremely intentionally uh what was What was I getting at? Buffalo. He rode up beside it and shot it.

Oh, yeah. Here's a funny story I'll tell you real quick. I was doing some research one time, and I was with these guys from the Buffalo Field Campaign. Mm-hmm. Okay? And these are like activists who were working to prevent state slaughter of bison leaving Yellowstone National Park.

But their organization's called the Buffalo Field Campaign. I'm standing there with the guy from the buffalo field campaign and here comes a pronghorn running by and i say oh there's an antelope he goes that's actually a pronghorn yes i'm like organizations named wrong there's like popular terminology right so a bison the american bison the american bison punches uh punches a nail right through it. Yeah. And then presents the arrow. So pass through shot, presents the arrow to whatever his name was. Okay. And brings it home.

Yes. In your research of the Plains bow, archery tackle used in Papua New Guinea, Clovis points. Have you found different cultures that had, have you found evidence of different cultures that accidentally or intentionally were applying things that you're now impressed by? Oh, yeah. Have you found cultures that, man, how did they not realize? I think a lot of this stuff was known probably thousands of years ago,

and we've lost it. We're just rediscovering what people knew. If you look at Japanese eras, you look at Chinese eras, these were high FOC eras. Look at the medieval war eras uh you look at chinese eras these were high foc eras look at the medieval war eras high foc eras high mass this stuff's been used all all around new guinea is the perfect and not just because the limitation of the materials like evidence that there was like intentionally like could have been different but was intentionally the. The perfect example is New Guinea of intentional. Because I examined archery equipment that was pre-World War II.

No steel available. The points are made of hardwood. The bows were made of black palm. These are beautiful, graceful bows. Would not look out of place at a primitive archery shoot now, today. And the arrow shafts were much like we would think of the diameter of an arrow shaft and the wooden points are quite long made out of hardwood but these arrows were uh i think the lowest that i measured was about 32 which would be ultra extreme foc going up into the 40 percent

world war ii comes along and all of a sudden there's rebar there's steel now all the points are made out of steel they're huge looks like a spear well in order to use them they had to go to a big cane shaft they make these things know, they're five and a half, six feet long, these arrows. But even with that big shaft, these points weigh so much. And we're talking to the light arrows that own up 3,000, 3,500 grains and go up, you know, well above 4,000 grain arrows. They couldn't get it to tune and they actually tuned their arrows just like we do when we bear shaft same process off of their traditional bows so what do they do they change their entire bow it is no longer in you know 60 inches long uh beautiful black palm it is now seven and a half feet long.

It's made out of bamboo. It's about that wide. Why is it that wide? Well, if you put that arrow way over here, paradox, that shaft can bend a whole lot more in tune around to straight flight. But they build these heavy arrows. No two arrows are alike because they're just hammering them out. But they'll get up there and shoot that arrow

and do just like we do. They'll keep shortening that shaft until it shoots straight. Now they don't use any fletching. But their FOC on the post-World War II arrows is even heavier. Most of those are above 40%

FOC. That's why they didn't get away with shooting them with no fletching whatsoever. Plus the fact they're not going very fast, which decreases the wind shear on the broadhead. I didn't have any way to measure the velocity. I didn't have a chronograph there or anything like that and the bows both the pre-world war ii post-world war ii uh they said the the pre-world war ii bows were about as heavy and just pulling it i would say it's an 80 pound range is the typical bow and the velocity i would suspect is less than 100 feet per second. Hmm.

And they consider out to 25 meters good shooting range. And these guys are deadly with them. What are they hunting? Rooster deer and pigs. Okay. Those are the two common things. The rooster deer live out in bald, open country, flood plains. The only stalking you can do is just the roll of the ground

and for whatever reason they generally stalk three guys at a time but only one shoots and i watched them went out with one hunt and watched them from a distance with the binoculars i probably wasn't good enough stalker to stay with them and uh basically it's about a-yard shot the guy took. Now, they traditionally carry three arrows. All three will be different, and a blunt. And he took his heaviest arrow, which was about 4,500 grains, is the one he chose to shoot. And plunk, drives this big head all the way, sticking out the other side of the atom.

Of course, the shaft is great big. It stops at the shaft. But the point's long enough, it's coming out the other side of the rooster deer. Yeah, and when Doc's saying the point's long, he's like showing his hands like a foot. So 16, 18 inches. Okay, yeah, long.

The short ones would be about a foot. Well, remember those boys in Guyana when they had the tape ear points? Yeah. I mean, it's like, I don't know, 11, 12 inches of hammered thin steel. And I asked the guy. He had the best answer I've ever heard. I asked him.

He was one of the few that spoke any English. And why he chose that error out of his three, because it was the heaviest error he had. And best answer there was, works best. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join.

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all right number eight okay the shaft profile we actually touched on we talked about the parallel shaft the tapered shaft yep and the barrel tapered shaft that's what we're looking at there then the tapered shaft works the best parallel shaft as long as it's not bigger than the ferrule works really well it's probably the standard most people would go by and the the barrel tapered shaft is definitely the worst no question about it and uh oh yeah that's enough on that one then we we talk about the broadhead and arrow silhouette, and we touched on that too. You want the smoothest transition you can get.

You don't want any lumps, bumps, spot wells, abrupt transitions. You want it to look like a stealth bomber. Other than the step down, you might get just back of the ferrule to the shaft. You do not want a bump on that arrow if you can avoid it. Sometimes you can't avoid it. Like we put that old turbo later on there. But that's a little. We actually use model airplane pinstripe that's about 16th of an inch wide.

No, maybe even smaller than that. 32nd. Very narrow narrow just enough to disrupt that laminar airflow do you remember you remember delta broadheads from a long time ago yeah i have a deer skull that's got one of those rattling around inside my dad shot in the shot the deer in the forehead yeah um it has serrated bleeders so it's got double bevel edges yep but then they would put little bleeders in there and the bleeders are serrated yep uh you don't like that profile no because that's that's a double sin right but it's inside you said so it made it past that because they had a heck of a bump yeah no it's it's rattling around in it that's awesome

yeah well i probably said they had they knew where a deer was feeding alongside a road and it was very accustomed to vehicular traffic so he had his friend he opened the door on a van and he had his friend drive very slowly he rolled out of the moving van with a with a recurve and then that deer just watched cars go by and he rolled out of the van while i was moving rolls up and shot and she like took notice of him she said swung her head around and it punched right in the forehead so i got it hanging on my wall with that thing i've uh guy only other guy in my county that bowhunter beside me. Shot one in the forehead. Did not get it.

It ran off in the air across 350 yards open field. Like a unicorn. That does a lot of good for PR. Yeah, it does. Can you touch on, I guess, while we're talking about bleeder blades, just why, I guess I can tell you why people think they're good, right? Because it gives you like another axis of a cut there's more things cutting they have lost the premise of it i had i had the

the honor of actually hunting with fred bear so i heard him tell this around the campfire i had lunch with him yeah nice guy akron ohio yeah he uh he said that the bleeder blow the original bleeder blade if you've seen the original Behr razorheads, were made out of that hard blue carbon steel. He said the purpose of that is that as soon as it hits a hard surface like a bone, it shatters. Then the broadhead can carry on like a normal single blade broadhead. It's only to open a bigger hole in the soft tissue to reduce the drag of the shaft where's your home fred bear he came to this lease that bob lee had uh so did ben pearson

i yeah i got to be good pretty good friends with ben pearson i picked up a lot of valuable shooting information from him so the blades just got misnamed well no people said oh these blades break off and they leave blades in the meat and somebody might eat them so they started making out of stuff that would bend and then destroy the whole concept of it working oh now i just increased error drag and it just ruins your penetration but that wasn't the intent when Fred Bear designed them. He had the design right. If you're going to use a bleeder blade, that's the one you want.

And so bleeder blades that are advertised or put onto broadheads now, they're just reducing your drag. Well, they bend pretty easy, most of them, because they're very thin. Instead of breaking, shattering, like the original bleeder blades on the bare razorhead, they bend. Once you get bent, like that tiny tip bend we were talking about, just, I mean, almost as small, you can hardly see it. That loses 14% of the penetration.

Just that little bend. And what's a bend of any kind going to do? It's going to redirect the path of that error. What's that going to do to the shaft? Now the shaft has got to try to make this bend, pushing all that tissue. It just kills your penetration. It just doesn't work at all. That's why structural integrity is the number one thing oh okay we're down to number 10 which we've already touched on is going through the type of edge bevel through soft tissue i thought that was earlier on in the thing no we just got off on

it because we were talking about edge thickness and stuff. Oh, yeah. Don't you remember me saying I thought you described four like it was four, A, B, and C? No. We just got off on it. So way down to number 10, the type of edge bevel. You do get an increase in penetration, and we used it with different profiles, broadheads, identical. Identical error setups you know compared double bevel to single bevel you get an increase in penetration even in soft tissue with a single bevel and this was one of the things in the testing that had a hundred percent frequency

it happened every time and looking at... No matter what you hit. Yeah. No, no, soft tissue, sorry. Well, soft tissue. With bone, it's even more stark because the single bevel torques and pops that bone. You get a massive increase in average penetration or mean or median or minimum.

Any of the factors you want to take out. Maximum penetration on every area. You can look at that, you know, full graph, compare any of them back and forth. You'll always have a higher percentage of penetration with a single bevel. And it was 100% frequency in the testing. So it is important, particularly on bone, though. That's where it makes the biggest difference. And a lot of that is the higher mechanical advantage of the edge,

less resistance going through, slice is easier. It does more work with the applied force. It penetrates more. Just simple physics. Nothing magic about it. remember how we wedged that traditional uh bit in between whatever like eight and nine yeah i want to wedge something in here okay okay talk about um apparently you were talking to yanni about this about uh shooting animals and propping them up and shooting them yeah that's the way we did most of the testing on freshly called animals.

You put the animal down, you got 30 minutes. So this is just so, again, let's bring it back to the beginning. This is like when you talk about the study. Yes. This is the study. This isn't like the last, because earlier you said, oh, the last 600 animals that have come in. Those are your personal.

Those are hunted animals. Those are hunted personal. These are separate databases. Yeah, separate. And we use the hunted animals as a cross-reference. Are we seeing the same thing that the setup shots on these freshly downed animals are indicating? Okay. And yes, we do.

So this was what you call the Natal study now? No, the Natal study is where it started with. That was shooting the rhinos those were actually hunted animals okay so then you went to a place where like explain because we still i don't think anybody knows exactly like when the study happened what it was where you were what the animals were oh i said by the time i got through with an atoll study i had more questions than i did going in okay and so i said okay you know i'm going to carry on with this and so i would do as many autopsies on animals as i could i made several trips back and forth to africa but then it really kicked up when i retired and the first four years i was over there I spent at least 300 days a year hunting

now that was either guiding or which I didn't do a lot of our hunting on my own shooting animals and uh would do buffalo whenever we could like probably we'd go into Mozambique and do the buffalo over there uh and collect as much data as we possibly could then after i got thrown out of zimbabwe when they kicked all the americans out uh they weren't didn't have permanent residency i came back to states regrouped and went down to australia spent time in australia new zealand new guinea all that area down there but But through contacts, I ran into a guy. He used to be the chief game ranger up in Kakadu Park. What country is that in?

Australia. Oh, okay. Of the Northern Territory. And he shot, who knows, 30,000, 40,000 buffalo. You know, back when they were trying to eradicate. Yeah, because they're like a non-native. Yeah. So they were, for years were trying to eradicate yeah because they're like a non-native yeah so they were for years tried to eradicate them and his his son is still uh

one of the park rangers they shot how many probably 30 40 000 of them and because they shot them from everything cars helicopters boats any way they could shoot them yeah of any any buffalo you saw you shot uh and we're not able to knock the population down. So after he retired, he talked the government, the Fish and Game Department, into establishing a study where he fenced in, I don't know, it's about seven miles by seven miles high fence. And he was trying to determine the carrying capacity

without damaging the habitat for the buffalo. And he has to take about 500 a year off to keep the population at a level that won't damage the habitat, or at least they think it's not going to damage it. And so I got it. And he's sort of a recluse. He don't take to everybody and think I live in the middle of nowhere. He's really in the middle of nowhere. And we just hit it off.

And he used to do a lot of testing while he was culling all these animals for woodley bullets because he's got a huge collection of firearms, a lot of double rifles, British shotguns. I mean, he's got literally a C container full of them. And so, you know, when I went up there and met him, through a client that I had guided in Australia that knew him, and we hit it off, and he said, you know, yeah, let's come on up. He said, we're shooting buffalo year round

so come up and we'll you know we'll shoot the buffalo we'll set up you know when you can test your arrows on them and he thought it was fascinating so the other guys worked for the the park there the other game rangers had a lot of them come out and watch they were absolutely fascinated with what we're doing with arrows and uh so I would go up there three months a year, and we would do as many buffaloes as we could do. And I could do, because of all the stuff you've got to do, the record-keeping, the resharpening of broadheads, the building of new arrow setups of things you want to test,

the most I could do was one buffalo every three days and get done. And we would go out, and he would get on the four-wheeler. I would follow him, and we'd find a buffalo. We'd carry all the gear with us, and he'd shoot the buffalo, put it down, usually a head shot, neck shot, something like that. We'd get there, prop it up, do do our shooting and then collect all of our data and then i would go back and you know do that carry parts of it back to dissect and uh where it had errors stuck in the bones and stuff like that and and uh then i'd write

all the recordings down and then resharpen everything, get ready to go. And you were collecting 120 different variables. 118. 118 variables. Variables on there. And that's everything from the bow, the launch kinetic energy, the launch momentum, the impact momentum, what type of animal it was, what distance it was shot at, what bones were hit. So you've got to make it easier because you know i didn't have a a dat true database computer wise so i have a feel there like it says entrance rib hit yes no

industry penetrated and penetrate means pass completely through if it just sticks out the other side it didn't penetrate it the bone stopped the hair i mean the broadhead had to pass through the whole the broadhead had to completely pass through the whole... The broadhead had to completely pass through the bone to consider it penetrated. Then you would carry on through other bones and organs of what was hit. The extra ribs it hit was scapula hit, it was spinal hit, spinal process, depending on what you're shooting at, pelvic girdle, neck, vertebra.

So you've got all these bones in there so you can go through it and look for something. It's in a spreadsheet. So I had limited search capability. size bull, Asian buffalo hit from a 20 degree angle impacting the ribs. And I'd get all those. And then I could go back and get the same thing and say, give me all the single bevels that did that. Give me the results from all of the EFOC errors that did that or the ultra EFOC errors. And that way you could start comparing stuff. Okay here's

averages for this, here's average you can take out. Okay these are double bevel broadheads, let's get those. You know let's get single bevel broadheads. And so you can start getting all these sets of data to compare back and forth to each other. Where you can look at what was the minimum penetration what was the maximum uh and you've got fields there where you describe stuff too that really didn't fit in like bone skips and things like that so you got one field that's just free field describe the shot the tissue damage the whatever you wanted to describe in there and uh on that one on the new one we've got links for photos i don't say it's a bad photographer i didn't have anything like that

so i had to keep track of what was what with photos just you know in a book so uh just one like one aspect of this what were the when you were doing this what were the shot distances for instance 20 yards uniform all of those are taken at a measured 20 yards okay and then how many total shots we probably have 5 000 okay and how many animals i don't know never counted them and why but you had 30 minutes before rigor would impact them. Yes. You had about 30 minutes. Now, in warm weather, you might have a little bit more than that,

but we put it down at 30 minutes and we stayed at 30 minutes because even in probably cool weather down there, because I went once in December. I'll never do it again to the northern territory of Australia. That was miserable. We know a rigor mortis specialist if you ever want to talk to him. There you go. University of Nebraska.

Yeah. Dr. Chris Kalkins. But he's picky about Kalkins or Kalkins. Kalkins. Kalkins. Yeah, figured that out. Rigor mortis specialist. There you go.

Yeah. Well, we did ours on the basis of okay you know in the early days yeah we get past this okay we're seeing a difference in outcomes so we got to cut this off here these yeah throw these away this this didn't doesn't correlate with what we got before okay what number we on uh where are we 11 tip. We should have done this interstitial thing the whole way through, man. Yeah, I was just, that was a good idea. Yep. Dude.

What we did was tip design was, I took a series of broadheads, Deniclara setups. These are all single blade broadheads. Say the number again. What number? Number 11. And what is it? Tip design.

Okay, I'm sorry. And what we did was put different tip profiles. And we used seven different tip profiles. Yeah, because that goes against your whole mechanical advantage thing. Reason for that. We were looking at a number of things. He's looking at a point yeah that has a uh what earlier what he would describe as a very high mechanical advantage angle profile or whatever the hell

but then it's got a little chisel point on it like it's not a chisel chisel is different different now i named these things what's that like what and knives they call that a what tanto yeah it's got a tanto point it looks like two tanto points put back to back. So that's what I named it. And that name is caught on. It's stuck through the years. Just because I had to have something to call it when I was doing the testing. But we tried all the different points, and we were looking at durability and skip angle.

Now, skip angle is a big, important factor. That looks like it skipped like all hell. It doesn't. Really? No. This actually was the best design of all, had the lowest skip angle and the highest durability of all the ones we tested. Now, if you could get a needle tip that wouldn't damage, it might do as well. Yeah.

But I never could find one that didn't damage sure we'll have to wait till different materials come this this came by far the the best and one of the things we're going to look at and i tried to determine it and we're going to be able to find out with that high speed camera is i tried different sharpening profiles on this Tanto tip. Single bevel on the same side, single bevel on the opposite side, and double bevel. And I was never able to tell which one truly worked the best, particularly for skip angle.

What is skip angle? Well, when an arrow hits a bone, most bones are designed to redirect forces. They're there not only to just hold the body up, but to protect the body. So they curve multiple directions. So it's pretty rare to be able to hit a bone square. It's one of the reasons the buffalo is such a nice test animal

because they have very broad wide ribs so you can almost get a square impact. Or like we did, you put a protractor out here, you take a string, you measure the angle and you shoot at various angles. So the skip angle describes the angle of the bone not of the... The angle of impact between the broadhead and the bone. Got it. Okay. Yes. And that's really important, like guys hanging out at tree stands and stuff,

because now they're looking down at ribs and think of the curves that are involved. Right. And it's not uncommon to hit one of those ribs and have the air actually ride around the outside curve of those ribs and have the air actually ride around the outside curve of those ribs and go into the ground and a lot of people it happens so fast they think they've shot through the animal and the air never got into the chest cavity you just went under the skin i think people from eating beef ribs you know people get a wrong idea what a deer's rib looks like when you actually take a deer's rib out that's some bitch's round yeah yeah it's not it's not a flat face most ribs are that way yeah yeah the the

bigger the animal gets the flatter the rib elephant ribs got a big flat yeah giraffe big flat hippos big flat buffalo a little bit smaller flat our rhino pretty right aren't they ours pretty round yeah yeah the smaller the animal gets the more round they are brown bears almost perfectly round right yeah it's real round i feel like this would be a good uh time to talk about a bone busting arrow and whether it's a real thing or if it's a myth one more and we'll do okay your interstitial didn't work that time, Yanni. Because the next thing coming up, factor number 12, at the bottom of the list because it's only important when you hit a heavy bone, is an arrow mass or an arrow weight above the heavy bone threshold.

Read that one to me again. It's arrow weight, if you want to think of it that way, above the heavy bone threshold. Okay, that's going to require a lot of explanation. It does, and most people have it wrong because they read what's there and they see 650 grains heavy bone threshold. And they think, okay, if I got 650 grains of error, it's going to break heavy bone every time. Wrong.

What we found is that every broadhead, doesn't matter how poor it is or how good it is, shows an increase, a marked increase, in the bone breaching rate of heavy bone when the error mass reaches right at the 650 grain. And it's literally within a few grains, one way or the other, of the 650. And it doesn't seem to vary whether you're shooting a compound or whether you're shooting a longbow or a recurve.

Would it vary if you shot it at 100 feet a second or 300 feet a second? Not much at all. Doesn't seem to make any difference at all uh when we've tried we're going to do some more of it get some more verification of it but at some point it should if we can get enough force it should make a difference but so, we don't have that. The basic premise is, like we were talking about, the bones are there to protect the body. So they have all these curves and bends, but they also have articulations.

So if they move, they also are flexible. They will flex. So when the air hits, it's got to push on this bone long enough to overcome the movement of the bone, the flexion of the bone, before it ever starts to penetrate the bone. Yeah, that's a good point, yeah. And that depends on how long it's able to push the impulsive force. And it's strictly weight-related. So if you took a real poor broadhead... Give me an example.

Took a muzzy. Bad to the bone. Yeah, it's bad to the bone, all right. Okay, it's going to have a pretty low penetration in heavy bone. It's not a great broadhead for breaching heavy bone. Okay. And it might give you 20% below the heavy bone threshold. Get it above the heavy bone threshold, it might jump to 26%, 27%.

But you take the best broadheadsheads and it doesn't matter if there's single bevel or double bevel the the best design broadhead good mechanical advantage 2.6 or higher seem to be where the cutoff was on there was 2.6 below the heavy bone threshold they might might have a 75, 85% bone breaching rate, yet the threshold is 100%. It is consistently 100%. And it doesn't matter if I shoot it

with a 40-pound recurve or I shoot it with a compound. It worked. The FOC of the error had no effect on heavy bone threshold, strictly how long it was able to push on the bone. But once you can breach that bone, then the FOC becomes really important. Because the post-breaching penetration is going to depend on that FOC because now that air is flying again. It's flying while it's pushing on that bone too.

Yeah. But it's also going to slow down the back of it, want to flex. That FOC has a lot of that reduced impact paradox we were talking about. So it's going to cut down the drag a lot once we breach that bone. But that's where the heavy bone threshold comes in. It does not mean that you can take a muzzy and put it on a 650 grain era and go out and break elk shoulders ain't gonna happen but you put a good broadhead quality steel durable spit shined strop home durable point on there that's not going to be

skidding off bones everywhere and yes a hundred percent when we looked at the penetration maximized errors these were all EFOC errors I don't think we're any ultras in there at all and we're using several different bows. We had 196 shots. 18% of those with a 40 pound bare formula silver recurve. Traveling at a velocity of a massive 119 feet per second. Shot at 20 yards on buffalo and go all the way up to 82 pound bow

so we had we had the 40 pound we had a 54 pound long bow we had a uh 70 pound no 64 pound long bow 70 pound long no 62 62 pound long bow 70, and 82-pound. And all of these errors had 100% breaching rate, 196 shots on trophy size. Consecutive. Consecutive trophy size buffalo. What bone? Ribs. This is the ribs, which is about 0.8 inch,

eight-tenths of an inch of pretty solid bone. So heavier than the scapula on elk. Oh, yeah. Yeah, heavier than the scapula on elk. Absolutely. And all of these errors would have been every factor on there. Penetration maximized. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Let's do this real quick. Okay. Let's do this real quick. Okay. What should folks be, like, what should folks be using? Well, that depends on what they're willing to live with. Any factor you use, think of these as a toolbox. Any factor you pull off that list and add to your error that you're currently using

is going to improve the performance of that error. But what do you mean what they're willing to live with? Well, some people won't. They have this mindset that, oh, if I shoot a 650 grain error, my trajectory is just going to boom. If I shoot, you hear it all the time if i shoot an efoc era it's just going to go out there and nosedive it doesn't it actually shoots flatter if you take two errors that are the exact same except for the foc shot out of the same bow

the foc or ultra efoc era is going to shoot flatter so because it's conserving energy from the paradox coming off the boat yeah I mean do you think it's fair to say that people's um that people are prioritizing target they're prioritizing target shooting over killing they're prioritizing hitting the animals that are killing the animal mm-hmm and the emphasis needs to be on killing the animal and there is what we try to talk about you know a little bit with some of And the emphasis needs to be on killing the animal. And there is, we tried to talk about a little bit with some of the new stuff that we, well, we've got a couple of the videos out now that Daryl and Troy did. The parabola

of the shot. The lighter arrow, as it goes out, once it starts to lose velocity, the heavier era, even though it's slower, doesn't do that. It doesn't nosedive like that. It carries it on through. So as you get to these longer ranges, it actually carries it's not the big drop that people are expecting when you get out there. And this is from actual data using those Doppler

and a whole series of tuned errors, all tuned to the bows. So we're starting to collect the hard data on this that it's not what people are thinking it is. And the pin gaps, if you look at the pin gaps with the light errors, they go like this, like this. You get a longer range, you get bigger and bigger pin gaps, if you look at the pin gaps with the light arrows, they go like this, like this. You get longer range, you get bigger and bigger pin gaps. With these heavy arrows, you don't.

The pin gaps stay consistent all the way down because it's carrying that parabola of the trajectory out better. You could probably explain this better than me. My forte is from when it hits till it gets out the animal so uh what would be like in your mind um if you're just going to throw out some like hard and fast okay people should be thinking about if they're if they're focusing on killing the animal they should be thinking about broadheads and the what they should be thinking about these factors and what they do to their air performance. And the what grain weight?

Well, myself, 650 grains. I will not shoot an arrow below that at gain. And what weight broadhead? I try to get the highest FOC I can with the lightest shaft. So I generally am using 300 grain plus broadheads on brass or steel inserts to get as much weight as it can up front. Generally with sometimes with internal footing behind that in the shaft or a collar on the front to help the shaft not being driven in and keep it from

fracturing up front. But I'm trying to put, what I'm trying to do is get as much weight into this little ball as I can. If you could make all the way to that era a neutron size, sucker will penetrate through a tank. Won't it?

It'd be pretty darn close. Yeah, neutron bombs do it. Yeah. Sounds like bow hunters need a science lesson well a lot of it does because they've this stuff has been sold to them in magazines for the last 70 years that oh speed speed speed light fast multiple eight broad, they cut bigger holes, they bleed more. Now, I tried doing some blood trail data. And with a set of animals, you don't get a lot of it. But if I had to put it down, the blood trail has no bearing on the broadhead you use.

What's going to matter is where you hit that animal, what you hit inside that animal, do you have an exit wound, and where is that exit wound located? If you've got a high entrance, high exit, you could have 15 blades. You could have a poor blood trail. If you hit him in the back and it comes out his sternum, I don't care if you're shooting a field point, you're going to have a blood trail. You know, that's interesting.

I had a client once hit an elk with like a.338 Win Mag, I believe it was. Hit him high. Yeah. Eventually, we found him, but guess what? We didn't have any blood. Same thing happens with guns. Yeah. Not a bit of difference.

Just all the blood's inside the cavity. Yeah. It's got to fill up. They're bleeding, but yeah. It takes a while to fill all that chest cavity up. That's a big pot of blood. That blood's going to collect in there, and it's going to collapse the lungs. So not only is he dying from loss of blood,

but it's going to get to where it's harder and harder for him to travel. And that's what he's trying to do. That's why he won't hopefully two holes through the lungs. If you can get that, then you get that pneumothorax, you start to collapse those lungs, and he doesn't travel his four. All right, tell everybody how to find you. Well, you need to go to ashbybowhunting.org. We are a 501c3 nonprofit.

None of the people are salaried. Everybody is a volunteer. All the officers, everything. And we'll take donations from individuals won't take them from archery industry now if somebody works in the archery industry and wants to donate as an individual but it's not going to buy him any special access or special treatment in any way and if you okay and then just to get the so if you want to see so so you guys at Grizzly Stick make a point that is the closest, like it's the closest manifestation of what you would argue to be the point. Well, we were talking last night.

If I'm picking a point to hunt with today, there are only two. Now, there might be some others that haven't been tested yet so i don't want to rule them out but ones that have been tested thoroughly that i know work is only two that i would use one is the asher broadhead which looks just about like that and the other one uh is the tough head uh the 300 grain tough head the original one and because those work now i did a lot of testing with very narrow broadheads where i were taking these and working them down uh to well below an inch diameter because you got a lot of laws that say you got to have an inch diameter broadhead or inch and an eighth or something like that in various places works just fine it kills buffalo it'll

kill white tails can't necessarily go the other way around but you know people miss that thing you know like i said i like to carry one arrow i don't care what i encounter i'm ready to shoot it uh do you guys get many donations we're just really getting started with them coming in but we're getting some coming in and we're in the process now of doing some grant requests from you know like dallas safari club and people like that and uh and you don't feel that's gonna you don't feel that's gonna lead to industry manipulation nope it's gonna have to be it's gonna have to be a grant and no strings attached period got it if there's strings attached we ain't doing it we've had some people in the archery industry want to donate and no you're not like those

guys the tobacco industry hires to show the tobacco's good for you no all right ashby bow hunting foundation yes go to it. Look at it. Donate. If you want to find out, if you want to support research that finds out what really works, what doesn't work, and what the money goes for, like I said, there's no salaries involved. It's buying the equipment. We're buying this high-speed camera. We bought these Doppler radar chronographs. Do you do Q&As with people?

Like if they go like hey what about this do you reply to them oh yeah yeah we've got a place in there for they can ask questions and and we'll give them answers you know what answer we can give them and the guys volunteer a lot of time they uh they build even to the point of building up air setups for people um you know that are going to hunt a keep buffalo or something they've never done it um so they actually do a lot of hands-on for individuals and it's called ask ashby but ask ash but it's it's it's routed to whichever one of us on the board is is most qualified to answer the question because my hands are getting where i can hardly do anything with them if they can answer they answer if they can't it comes to me yeah got it and if i can't

answer it i tell them i don't know you know that's we're doing testing on it or hey that's something we're going to add to the testing that's a good idea you know just uh you know people are good about doing that and and we have become involved with uh one of the big things with texas parks and wildlife we're affiliated with them so we put on programs teaching this type stuff to the bowhunter education instructors so we train them in that and uh we work with faza the the Professional Hunter Association of South Africa, and the one in Namibia also. And we're trying to set up one in Zambia, working with that.

We supplied a lot of information that went over to Russia, where they legalized bow hunting last year. And looking at Germany, looking at some other places that we're trying to assist them with information. Botswana. With the data we have, Botswana. and looking at Germany, looking at some other places that we're trying to assist them with information. Botswana. With the data we have, Botswana. And so we're trying to reach out that way. So we not only try to work with government agencies,

and just recently we sent out letters to every state fish and game department telling them what we're doing with Texas Parks and Wildlife and seeing if we can assist them. And we've had replies back from, I don't know what, two or three, four. Absolutely. You know, there's just not a lot of people that have information for those guys that want to go out and educate people. And so when we've been able to supply that information for them, they've been starving for it.

It almost seems like a lot of the guys and just, they're looking for ways to better educate their students when they're going through this, the hows and whys of what's going on besides just shooting them. Thanks, Doc. Appreciate it. Welcome. My pleasure. Ashby Bowhunting Foundation. Check them out.

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