The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 358: Thoreau Would Likely Have Little Use For You

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Steven Rinella talks with Kimi Werner, Danny Bolton, Ryan Callaghan, and Seth Morris. Topics discussed: Taking her slow; Parks and Rec as the Goodwill bin of The Office; on Nick Offerman and Thoreau; on Steve being demeaning; defining scope; math and chum bags; more on the lead vs. copper debate; losing your life to swordfish and sailfish; on how fascinating the Coronado Expedition was; when you're a fishing guide who finds dead bodies; carp herpes; Steve's first ono and mahi in the same day; getting real sharky; competing with sharks for your sashimi; one crack, medevac; how amazing shark movement is; pilot fish like a shark's pet dog; and more.  Connect with Steve and MeatEater Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop MeatEater MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. Welcome to the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We hunt. The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything.

Presented by First Light, creating proven, versatile hunting apparel from merino base layers to technical outerwear for every hunt. First Light. Go farther, stay longer. Okay, everybody. Coming to you perched high above the beautiful Pacific Ocean. Wonderful view here. Thank you. With Kimmy Werner,

Seth Morris. Howdy. Danny Bolton. Ryan Callahan. Danny just has the first little thing to titillate everybody. When you were on the show before, did we talk about what you did for a living? Real briefly. Hit that again. I find this endlessly fascinating.

Yeah, so we trained some military special forces guys and some other government agencies, off-road driving, off-road driving technique and then a lot of recovery stuff so a lot of work with the winches a lot of work with just towing each other out if they needed to use tow straps or whatnot and then also filling them in on how to fix stuff kind of giving them the confidence and wrenching on their own vehicles a lot of guys have that kind of personal desire to do for their own vehicles too. But if we break an axle or something or blow a differential out there, we get them in there, we get them

involved. And then it just gives them a chance to kind of understand that whole process and see how simple it really can be if you kind of know what you're doing and just try to build that confidence in them. So if something happens to them out in the field, a lot of times they'd just be leaving that vehicle if it was a dire situation. But once you're down to one vehicle, that's all you got. Do you guys train in the same vehicles they use? We do. This next trip that we're going out, they're bringing out some of their own military vehicles. So I'll just be riding in one of those um they're called the 1.1s so we'll train in their vehicles

and then a lot of times they'll get like toyota hyluxes and they'll get an array of vehicles because sometimes they want to blend in wherever they're going so they get some pretty janky stuff from what i've seen some pictures of sometimes so just kind of giving them a good feeling of off-road mobility stuff and what they can be capable of a lot of it is just building confidence in them is that is that what you want danny to hit or was it the coffee roasting that you were more interested in no vehicle driving oh yeah good just making sure you're tangled up in the coffee business i'm tangled up in all kinds of stuff um my family has a construction company so i grew up working construction um a lot of heavy equipment running

bulldozers or excavators or whatnot and then also my dad had a ranch property that he bought. And one year they were slow and the construction was slow. So he's like, hey, let's keep these guys busy and plant a coffee field. So when I was a kid, 10, 11 years old, we had to plant a bunch of these coffee trees down in a nursery next to our house, let them grow for a year. And then we took them up to the farm and planted them up at the farm when I was 12 or 13. And it takes a couple of years for those coffee trees to really start producing. But the first couple of years it did produce, they ended up winning first place in a cupping competition. So then it was like, oh, okay, like we got, we have something here. So it kind of snowballed from there, know website coffee shop our whole own milling because

my dad's really hands-on and wants to see the whole process so bought all the milling equipment i ran the dry mill for a long time and the wet mill so the wet mill is when the coffee comes off the farm it's got to get the skin off it washed and then dried so that it's shelf stable dried to a certain temperature not temperature moisture content so that it's shelf stable, dried to a certain temperature, not temperature, moisture content so that it doesn't mold. And then from there, you sort it again so that you have all the same size coffee beans. So when you roast it,

it's like putting cookies in the oven, right? Like you've got small ones and big ones. The big ones aren't gonna be done by the time the small ones are burnt. So you wanna get all the same size beans, all the same density. So it's a couple of machines that have to run for that.

And it was cool because that was mainly during the winter i would do that work so i'd come home work three four months in the winter and then i could go travel and do work wherever else i was traveling doing a bunch of automotive stuff too um and that heavy machinery uh experience kind of led into your driving too, right? Because you got to make your own dirt bike courses and stuff. Yeah, it did. So when we were kids, we were blessed to have equipment. So anytime it wasn't being used, we'd build our own dirt bike track stuff. So we built some pretty crazy ass jumps

that I probably wouldn't let my own kid jump, you know? And that led into working in the automotive industry. A company came over here and wanted to build a course because they sponsored Ironman that we have here, the World Championships in Kona. And they wanted some people to be able to drive over some bumps and stuff. And they called my dad. And he was like, hey, none of my employees built that track.

My son built it, you know, and his cousins um so they called me and i was 16 at the time and so i was like yeah no problem like sounds easy and i showed up and i was real short too at that time i like growth spurt later on and that guy was just questioning me big time and i i knew we had the skills i told my cousin like hey let's get this done we had three days to build it. We built it in one day. And the guy's like, all right, these guys are legit. So the next year, right out of high school, I went working 11.

I went six months on the road for a certain car company tour that we did and built tracks all over the U.S. And that's kind of what led me to the mainland. Like I was born and raised here. And then right out of high school, I was over there and they didn't really want to fly me back and forth. So I was couch surfing. I'd go to my aunts and stuff in California

and ended up in Gardnerville, Nevada for a little while, which is by Lake Tahoe. So that brought me to the mainland for about four or five years until the recession hit in 2010. 2009, I moved home and just started working construction because the whole car company, right? The whole car industry dried up.

But during that time in the mainland, we raced off-road. We built our own race truck because we knew how to weld and everything. So me and my cousin fabricated our own race truck, built the whole roll cage and everything and did real well doing that desert racing, like the Baja stuff. And then that's kind of all that's kind of led into the military stuff. I met a friend on a Toyota photo shoot. That's like, dude, I got to get you into

this. Cause we got to go camping for four days and need someone who can help cook. It's not going to complain, um, you know, about being cold or tired or whatever. Cause some days we're out there, you know, middle of the night with night vision on trying to fix something. So I was like, yeah, I'm in. So that kind of got me into the whole military thing, which is awesome. Cause with those guys, I, you know, you can really be yourself. Some of the corporate stuff, you gotta be careful what you say, you know, dot your I's cross your T's and like be a certain way. But with these guys, um, they have a lot of the similar mindset as us and just enjoying the struggle.

So it's been a pleasure. Hmm. Yeah. Makes you think I got in the wrong business, man. That's cool. Yeah. And I've done some hunting guiding and stuff. I teach a class for that outfit called taking her slow.

Yeah. Yeah. I i'm like here's how i like to drive down trails yeah yeah it's called using your binoculars i just kind of creep along that's a big part of it like these guys it's the same as offered racing like most offered racing the finishing rate is 50 so 50 of the people who start the race you know some races are a little bit better but a lot of people start the race't finish. So we teach these guys like go fast when you can, but there are certain areas you cannot go fast. You have to take it easy on the vehicles. And we're talking like inches. If you're off on the wrong line, you're not making it up an obstacle. But if you just take your time, back it up a little bit, use the right technique. We teach

them a lot of driving with both feet, you know, left foot on the brake, right foot on the gas, a lot of open differential stuff. One tire will get up in the air and those differentials are lazy. They'll send all the power to the easiest one to turn. So you're using that left foot brake

to kind of modulate that and still get traction. And that way it keeps it too from getting a bunch of wheel spin and that's where you start breaking axles and differentials because you get all that wheel spin all that torque and then all of a sudden if you go over something it gets traction again all that traction's got to go somewhere and that's where you start snapping stuff drive shafts and stuff like that so yeah it's fascinating man yeah i'd like to take that course oh yeah yeah i'd love to have you guys out i'd love to have you guys out we'll plan a trip yeah we get a couple vehicles

together and um take steve's truck yeah we can take steve's truck or we can take your own vehicles we can take our vehicles we'll take both because we have all the tools and stuff set up too um we'll make sure we have the right stuff and we can even come scout some stuff in montana because a lot of our a lot of hunting right you end up in some pretty crazy places yeah i'm sure you have stories of being stuck somewhere especially hunting in sonora man it's like a proving ground for vehicles okay uh we're gonna come out here anyway i haven't contacted him yet but there's a we're gonna have like all company dive not all company we're gonna to have like all company dive, not all company. We're going to try to get a private free dive one and two. Yeah.

Safety rescue, all that shit. Yep. Lined up. I haven't contacted the dude yet, but he's in Hawaii. Yeah. And so if we come out for that,

we can do vehicle training too. Love that. You want to go to our dive thing with us? I would love to. And I think that's great. You guys are going to do that. You could be like, that's not how I do it. We should round it out and throw a...

But what would you do if there were sharks? Throw like a woofer course in there too. Just knock a bunch of stuff out in two weeks. That'd be great. Driving, medical. Yeah. Driving, diving, medical. Okay.

Got to move down the line here. Oh, you know what? Did you see this article? Do you know the actor Nick Offerman? He plays on Parks and Rec. It's kind of like Parks and Rec is kind of like the Goodwill bin of the office. Do you know what I mean? They had the office, and someone was like,

we wish we had more stuff like that right and so they came up with that so the the dude there's a guy that plays kind of a blowhard on there like he plays like a libertarian nick offer me oh that's oh yeah okay yeah i got you yeah he writes this thing in outside magazine and i used to be on the mastheaded outside magazine so it's funny someone sends me this article he wrote called nick offerman's call of the candy ass and when i saw the headline i was like he stole my dad's word because i've never heard anybody but me and my old man describes the one as a candy ass naturally i read the article it turns out he's talking about the podcast he's talking about this podcast. He's talking about this podcast.

Oh, no way. Well, he says he's listening to a podcast. He doesn't name the podcast. This is a recent episode. And a guest we had, I think it was John Muellem, was talking about Thoreau, Henry David Thoreau.

And I pointed out, because there's an article, I can't remember who wrote the article, hacking on Thoreau, about how Thoreau's like, he went to live in this cabin, you know? Yes. But it was like, he's going to his ma's house every other

day, right? Right. This writer kind of looked at how Thoreau presented what his reality was. You know, that was Brent West, because we were talking about Maine and Thoreau, and you were like, Thoreau's a game of chess. his reality was you know that was brent west because we were talking about main and throw and you're like oh okay yeah because like so there's this thing like throws time in the woods is understood to be a way but there was like you know there's been like exposes about like what

throw is actually about like he's a big mama's boy and he went to so i said throws a candy ass so this guy offerman writes about this podcast host me okay and how he upset he is about what i said about throw and then he goes on like you know this kind of like classic like the outdoors is for everybody and it's not your position to judge right yeah and who are you to right all this stuff but then he also it's weirdly like he like weirdly contradicts himself it's mostly like a bike riding story he like but he sets it up about this mean podcast host and then closes with a mean podcast host and it's about him riding his bike around uh and he says he contradicts himself because he says how throw in his words throw had um

he says i powerfully admire throw but i wasn't angered instead i wondered if this guy was aware of the naturalist story toughness this is a an Offerman quote. His inner circle of friends knew him to hike for many miles, often with wet feet. And he goes on, and so this is Offerman on Thoreau. He says Thoreau had little use for those who couldn't keep up, which would lead me to believe that here Thoreau has little use for those who can't keep up, which leads me to believe that here Thoreau has little use for those who can't keep up. Which leads me to believe that he's a bully.

Or is the outdoors for everyone? Not in Thoreau's view, because he has little use for those who can't keep up. According to Offerman. And we get down to the page, and Offerman then has this to say about i sense that that demeaning podcast hosts and cyclist hating drivers come from a culture of bullying and aggression one that so often misunderstands our need for outdoor adventure it's like he's hanging out in the discussions they have at my kids elementary school bullying and aggression it's like you's hanging out in the discussions they have at my kids elementary school bullying and aggression it's like you'd think a dude an actor who makes his living being

funny would better understand like a joke uh well here's something that you need to know about this fella he's got he spent all of his time being a a wood. And from what I've seen and kind of read, he's like a New England style, kind of a traditional woodworker. He's got his own woodworking shop. I think he's got some employees these days. And they turn out stuff. And I want to say that he built either canoes or kayaks or something like that. Good. canoes or kayaks or something like that good and i i would venture to expound that um a man who builds a hand-carved canoe is going to be real tight with thoreau to go for a paddle as they

say in the but like bullying and aggression to make a joke about Thoreau. We asked him to come on the show and his person said, Nick is not available. Yeah, and Thoreau's dead so you can't get that. I think there's a line in there about beads of water

sliding off the back of your canoe paddle. Like bullying and aggression should. I like that he listens to the show oh i loved his character on on parks and rec that's one of the the few i bet i've seen more parks and rec episodes than i ever did the office episodes um maybe he's a wannabe hunter and he was in that he was in that uh uh sam elliott movie that got a bunch of awards i think where sam elliott's like the kind of hack cowboy actor that gets a second shot and you ever see that one real good offerman was great character in that i didn't know who it was until i realized it was the the blowhard from Parks and Rec.

I wouldn't even consider it a blowhard. What's that? I'm not sure if he was a blowhard. I don't think so. But he was just like a well-defined character compared to everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I liked it.

Here's a good piece of mail. What do you think about that kimmy i mean i do think you can be demeaning sometimes but that example sometimes yes but i think that like when yesterday you were being very demeaning towards stand-up paddling and saying that anybody who's into that um you just wonder why they would ever get into it and what the heck they gave up to get into it, or maybe they just didn't do anything ever before, and that's why they got into it.

You thought that was demeaning? Yeah. Okay, give me some more. Is that really the word for it, or was it just like a... Judgmental. Tell me some more. Skiing. I always hear you putting down skiers my whole family skis yep i know i know uh just anything like well one else i'm demeaning about is any kind of uh

when your kids are in something that makes them have to be somewhere on weekends. Yeah. I overheard you talking about that yesterday too. And saying, don't play any sports on the weekends because nobody's going to go. We're not going to go. I just walked away. I was talking to my little boy. Yeah, I know. Well, I'll have you know that my wife's starting to talk some sense into him. So I was actually talking and that my wife's down. I need to talk some sense into him. So I was actually talking, and she said I'd failed utterly

because he just dug his heels in. So he's enrolled in weekend sports? It's up in the air. Kimmy, what's your parental position on that? I don't know. I was definitely listening and thinking, what am I going to gonna do when buddies of that age because i would feel the exact same way where like eight saturdays in a row you need to go down

to this place yeah and my dad was the same way with me where we didn't get into any sports that took him away from like fishing and diving and camping and stuff. Tell me more demeaning things because I'm going to try to change my ways. No, those are the ones that came to my mind right away. Just one example from each day. It'd be fine. What about the tame pets? Oh, that I don't like domestic animals. My little Pomeranian Chihuahua dog.

Here's the problem. We're going to move on in a minute, but here's the problem. Here's what I don't like about what you're doing. You have too many examples. No, I'm going to demean you guys from it this is gonna apply to me too let's let her in uh everyone has opinions about stuff yeah okay everyone has opinions about stuff um but i i find that when if someone has an opinion and they and they like like express it emphatically or or really express it

that starts to make people uncomfortable right so me saying that like domestic dogs aren't as interesting to me as wild dogs because i don't understand what they do all day yeah but a but a coyote busts his ass all day. It's just more interesting to me. For sure. But then some would be like, well, that's demeaning to domestic dogs. Yeah.

Everybody has an opinion, right? But a lot of people just don't say what they're thinking. Or it's just like one little blip and then you don't get the full story behind why they feel that way. Yeah. My wife would be like, you always think you're right. I'm like, do you often think you're wrong when you're arguing with me i think the difference between that though is everybody

has opinions and that is absolutely true but i think that when you can understand that so many truths all exist at the same time and so your opinion is just one of many, many truths, then I think it sounds a little less demeaning. But if you say your opinion like, this is the truth, and this is the only truth, and everybody else got it wrong, then it sounds a little demeaning. That's a hard pill to swallow.

Let me counter. I'll counter. Okay. Here's a way to look at it. Thoreau's dead. Oh, my God. That's true. hard pill to swallow let me counter i'll counter yeah here's a way to look at it throws dead okay so like he was a mama's boy now so here's we're talking about a dead writer okay throws dead like i'm not gonna hurt throws like book sales right to high school students okay stand-up paddle boarding is a a luxury recreational activity it's not like it's like an it's like like many of the things I'm too into it's kind of a nothingness my feelings about domestic dogs aren't going to have any impact on pet ownership in America I have a domestic dog. So maybe I'm like goofing on like fairly harmless things that don't really matter.

Okay, so if I'm like goofing on stand-up paddleboard, it's like, am I really, am I really like creating trouble for someone? No. Or a dead guy? I mean, I'm not bothered by how you can be demeaning sometimes. I think that it's fine. But it's still demeaning. Dude, I'm not going to demean anything anymore. I'm going to start being one of those guys. Set the watch.

If we can get through this podcast. I'm going to start being one of those guys that just likes everything. It's funny. When you said, I'm going to be that guy who likes everything, the dog emerged from underneath the couch. Where's that dog? Give me your doggy. Give me your doggy.

I think it's good you have opinions. Yeah. And you're bound to hurt people's feelings, and that's fine. Yeah, more people need to share their opinions because people are getting thin skin. Well, that's why... Let me back up. Before we even talk about this, I asked Nick Offerman to come on the show. And we got like... I had some people, you know, new people that knew him.

And his scheduler like blew it off. So my instinct was to have him on the show and laugh about Throne. Yeah, that was his opportunity to share his opinion. Well, I thought it'd be fun. I even said, like, we'll talk about your books. Authors do real well on the show. And we'll talk about Throne. It'll be fun.

He's not available. He's too covered in sawdust thinking about his New England paddle. Probably in close proximity to his mom's house, right, Steve? Oh, a prosecutor? I was given a hot tip for raising children

that ninja throwing stars are a riot. A prosecutor wrote in. He's a deputy prosecutor in indiana i want to let you all know especially your indiana listeners that he calls them chinese throwing stars which i do remember some people call them ninja throwing stars some people call them chinese throwing stars even though i believe that's a japanese the japanese word for them is uh uh a shuriken.

Either way, I'm a deputy prosecutor in Indiana. I want to let you all know, especially Indiana listeners, that Chinese throwing stars are illegal in Indiana. See Indiana Code 3547-5-12. Officer, this was made in Japan. A Chinese throwing star is defined as a throwing knife, throwing iron, or other knife-like weapon with blades set at different angles. It is a Class C misdemeanor,

punishable by up to 60 days in jail. He then points out, I've been a prosecutor for seven years and I've never heard of this crime being charged. I would love to know how it got on the books. I was saying that when I was trying to find ninja throwing stars

for my kids, they don't sell them on Amazon. I had to go to a ninja supply warehouse to get mine. An online ninja supply warehouse to get my throwing stars. On the dark web. A shuriken.

Probably put you on some sort of list. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, here's another good one guy wrote in on our uh recent episode if there's lead in the air there's hope in the heart um we debated a lot of feedback on this one we had on chris parish of the peregrine fund and we talked a lot about lead ammunition versus copper ammunition and we talked about uh lead toxicity lead in the environment effects on condors on and on it was a very good conversation i thought i was going to ask you what you thought old chris there loved it loved it yeah i thought he did a great job yeah he's a smart fella i had pointed out my uh oh

i'm gonna you don't mind if i demean myself do you i often talk about how i'm real bad at basic arithmetic that's the meaning um and i said how would one ever figure out the density if there's 118,000 lead pellets per acre? And I made a comment like I'd never be able to figure out what that looked like. Look, I figured it out for us. An acre is 43,560 square feet. So, 118,000, which is the number of lead pellets per acre in some of these areas they've surveyed sean brought that up on the sean's duck report divided by 43 560 comes out to for every square foot 2.7 so round up to three. And some of these waterfowl hunting areas

they're talking about, they were finding for every square foot. Look at the tiles on the floor, 12-inch tiles. There'd be three pellets laying there. Pretty good density of pellets. Hey, folks. Exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join.

Whew, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking a high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps,points and tracking that's right you were always talking about uh we're always talking about on x here on the meat eater podcast now you um you guys in the great white north can can be part of it be part of the excitement you can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service that's a sweet function as part of membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services

handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit OnXMaps.com slash meet. OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. What was the math equation that we were talking about? And I said we should mention that on the podcast so someone can figure it out.

Oh, here's a good one. This came about from my conversation about Kimmy. I still don't remember. I'm having a hard time even saying thoughts anymore because knowing Kimmy thinks I'm demeaning. Are you going to come like BFF with Nick Offerman and talk about how bad I am? No.

I think that we can all be demeaning sometimes. But when you just said that you're not and then you asked what my opinion about that was, I just had to say like, I definitely think you can be demeaning, which is fine. Do you think it's demeaning to call someone demeaning not if they ask for it yeah so that's just being a friend yeah

i was explaining to seth how i've become how i have become like my best day black cod fishing was my first day black cod fishing. And it's one of the few things in life where the more I do it, the worse I get. Like you usually expect in life, you're trained to expect this sort of like experience, right? Like as experience increases sort of like your adeptness or, you know. Yeah. You get better. It's just like a basic thing that happens in life but with black cod fishing or sablefish fishing my uh i get worse the more i do it and i was talking about needing to get out of my rut on sablefish fishing and i mentioned how your father when i asked him why he's so successful fishing black cod in southeast Alaska, he laid out for me his formula. Oh, boy.

You don't want me to mention it? No, I don't know what it is. Well, he uses those little Hawaiian chum bags that deliver chum down to 1,300 feet of water, which I bought two of. And I realized in the time it took me to order them, I could have made some with a needle and thread and a pair of blue jeans but i didn't know i didn't have one of my hands yet the mucky dog bags that's like the palube is palu you guys were chum palu means chum they just call it like a palu chum bag but in print in quotes so it's like hawaiians and and amer Americans understand it, right? You know what I mean? Yep.

That's a Hawaiian word, palu? Yeah, it can mean like barf or chum. It's like mushed up. Yeah. Okay. So they have it described as like a palu and then chum, one of them being in parentheses bag. A bought two. He did that. Also, he mentioned

that they will set an anchor in 1,400 feet of water. Yeah. And tie off on that. So that you're holding a spot, and when you're dropping chum, you're not drifting away from the chum. And then they wait and bring them into them. Yeah, and the theory behind that which i was told is um that the younger black cod the smaller black cod you know like a lot of fish species are like more

frisky more aggressive more assertive and sometimes the bigger and fatter you get the more slow you are and so if you're constantly drifting or moving you're always gonna be attracting the smaller fish whereas if you stay in one place it gives the big ones time to move in and start biting you know when you said how the younger ones are frisky and the older ones get a little complacent so do you meaning no I want. No. I was going to make... I want you to know. I want you to know that I was going to say, I was going to say, I know some people like

that, but I didn't. Very good, Steve. Because it would have been so demeaning. Oh, my gosh. So I sat on that one. Sat on it. But I bet the fishing part of that combo got your wheels turning though too right like is it inching you towards the investment of dropping a well a semi-permanent

buoy out there which brings around the math question and seth said i bet you've talked about the podcast someone did send you a very good explanation you need to some like when you set an anchor you need some amount of scope for tide swing okay so uh better describe scope like well you don't really depends on how big your weight is what scope is when you go to anchor a boat scope is the angle of the line meaning let's say you're anchoring a boat in 100 feet of water and you have and you have exactly 100 feet of rope or let's say 101 feet of rope and you lower it down anchor hits the bottom you tie it to the boat you're in 100 feet of water you have 101 feet

of rope you have basically zero scope when that when the boat moves it's going to clunk the anchor along and it can move for tide or wind or both sometimes and scope is like your angle so the more scope you have the better your thing will hold the less weight it takes to hold the object and sometimes they'll anchor stuff where it's actually a seven to one for every foot of depth you have seven feet and you can have, and then that anchor line is at a, at a very shallow angle as it runs through the water column and you just get better grip, especially with an Admiralty anchored. It has those points on it because they dig in.

So I was wondering if you went out to 1400 feet of water and you're in an area with like a 25 foot tide swing and you drop an anchor and tie it to a buoy how much if it's if you know the exact depth like let's say the exact depth is 1400 feet of water how much rope do you need and then when you figure that the wind and the tide is moving that thing around, it's actually, imagine it throughout the course of a day, it's going to make like a conical shape. So at any given time, how big is the diameter?

What sort of diameter are you swinging above the fixed point of the anchor so that if you drop chum down, are you swinging a a circle of like a hundred yard diameter why was nick hofferman listening to the podcast are you swinging are you swinging a thousand yard yeah like how over the anchor are you yes like is it is it really beneficial to have that fixed point if you can't actually ever get to that fixed point because of tides winds scope and then to go back to the mechanical conversation keep in mind this all was brought up while we're standing in line to like load the plane on the way over here to hawaii um what type of rope do you need or line do you need i was talking

about buying some real shitty rope and cal pointed out if you can go through all the hassle to set an anchor in 1400 feet of water why would it be shitty rope right don't you want it to be there the next day what would inevitably be a whole day to make this happen and there's an added wrinkle i don't want to name names but i knew a person who set a chum bag in 300 feet of water and he was under the impression that was he was it was illegal to do it. So he stapled his to a drift log, which Cal pointed out is like one benefit of a buoy is others can see it. And when you hit it, it's soft.

So this, not naming names, stapled his to a drift log so that the innocent passerby would just think it was a soggy drift log sitting barely above the surface. And then when he would, anytime he went crabbing, anytime he went shrimping, anytime he cleaned fish, he would put it in a biodegradable burlap sack. Put a rock in that sack, tie it off to the line, and Davey Crockett's locker. Who's that guy? Davey Jones. Davey Jones' locker right down at the bottom.

He's probably got a nice little pile of rocks down there. He's got a little reef, and it's full of chump. Crockett ever see the ocean? That's a good question i'll have to look that's a question for clay or buddy levy so oh thing on crockett did you know the crockett in crockett's day as a politician as a congressman there was two congressmen that got you know you fight like trump and hillary right it's tense well these two political figures crockett's peers these two political figures it got like the debates got

so intense and personal that at the end of the election they challenged they they had they agreed to have a duel but duels were illegal in the state where they lived. So they traveled together to another state where it was legal to have a duel where the guy that won the election then shot and killed the loser. And people want to talk about how politics is nasty nowadays. Wait, so it wasn't a proper duel. It was whoever lost, you got shot no matter what.

No, they did the election. So it'd be like Trump and Hillary fight,ary fight fight fight say bad stuff about each other exactly afterward trump wins hillary loses yes they then go to another country where it's legal they go to like afghanistan where it's legal to duel trump kills clinton in the duel and then comes home and resumes his position that was crockett's political era and but people talk about how politics has gotten too nasty yeah and what was i saying no davy jones's locker and we want to get to the ask of yeah please write in oh and and then and then i said this to my brother danny i said but it's illegal to set a buoy and danny says is it i feel that we think it's illegal to set a buoy because of the person with the drift log told us that

but they told us a lot of stuff the person with the drift log in the salvage business that's a joke so it's a whole pile of questions like, can you go out to your favorite spot and set a buoy in 1,400 feet of water in the state of Alaska and then leave it there indefinitely? And if you can, how much rope? Yeah. What's the diameter of your circle at the top when you're tied off to it? And what type of rope? Yeah.

Because it's not something you want to go re redo every year and then if they do write in and then if they could throw this into like do they feel that i'm demeaning i was working on the uh how heavy it's weighing on i can tell especially when you turned on me there man i did not turn on you you asked me my opinion i was working on the anchor you just said it's good for everyone to have opinions. Just at the right time. Work on your timing. I was working on the anchor system.

The next old refrigerator or freezer. After you drain all the nasty stuff out of it. Burn all the stuff out of it. I wonder if you could just throw that thing in the boat, go out there with some quick dry cement, and have that be your anchor. I got the anchor of all anchors for this purpose. I got the fridge for you.

The thing you guys got to think about is how you're getting this anchor off the boat. Because that sucker's heavy. Here's the other question I got. Well, no, I have an actual anchor that I want to use for this. Right now it's anchoring my dock in place on one end, but I can replace that with a rock.

Yeah. The other thing is, if you let out 1,400 feet of line that's spooled in the bow of the boat and it gets tangled halfway down, you are not happy. I might run it off a spool. Here's what you do. Run a broomstick through a spool.

You take your float, right? You got this all calculated out. You got the exact amount of rope. You float that float and you let all that rope out oh yeah that's a great idea that's great and then you got your anchor and you go over your spot and you send it and that son of a bitch is so heavy it's just gonna drag that yeah or you or you take an old skiff that you don't want anymore and tie that to it Toe it out there with the anchor and the rope coiled nicely in it. Start piling rocks in it. And then you sink that skiff with the anchor.

Oh, and then you got a little structure down there. Well, no, here's the problem with that. That thing is going to be so many miles away from the bullseye by the time it hits. That's true. You'd have to pick a day with little current. There's guys that work for the Coast Guard that just set anchors. Yeah. Part of what's got this on my mind is here,

we went by buoys. Here, they're in thousands and thousands of feet of water. Yeah, it was 15,000 feet of water. Yeah, 15,000 feet of water. I need to talk to that son of a bitch. Not to demean him. That feller. And then when you guys are fishing these buoys,

I know when we fish buoys here the current's usually going one way so you're kind of on that buoy and you're kind of fishing it one direction for hours um so i don't know like you're asking about like that wind and the tide and the current everything i wonder how often it's switching um if it's switching you know every hour or whatever if you can fish it solid for a couple hours where it's going one direction and you don't really have to worry about yeah it'll have a swing so they're kind of hard to find but as long as you know where that anchor point is you know where the current's going you can usually find that buoy to where it's at then you fish it

for those couple hours while the current's let's say headed south then you're just fishing it while it's headed south yep for that day you're still dropping down your like palu bag yeah so it doesn't really matter like per day you'd fish it you know if it's heading north the next day you'd be fishing it where it's heading north and oh hold on we got to get back on track because this all came about with math problems so the guy wrote in about the math the the the math around how much lead like how much lead shot is out on the landscape in certain places now we got two more things um a doctor wrote in all fired up that i was uh that i was not taking lead poisoning seriously enough. I disagree.

I was pointing out, I pointed out only that. He wasn't listening carefully. He's like, no lead is good. That's why lead is like zero. Zero is how much lead you should strive for in life. You say no lead is good i was only i was pointing out that no one has found elevated lead levels in hunters elevated relative to their peers who are not consuming wild game and i pointed out that when they did this thing where they went to like north dakota and found lifelong consumers of wild game killed with lead shot

and took their lead levels, their lead levels were lower than non-hunters who live in urban environments who are getting lead from soils contaminated by lead, from all those years of leaded gasoline, lead paint, I don't know, industrial lead pollution. I was never saying that I think lead is good to eat. I was just saying no one has shown a, and people act like it's there,

but it's like, if it's there, send it to me. No one has shown. No one has definitively shown, not even definitively, no one's kind of demonstrated that hunters are suffering from increased lead levels due to the consumption of wild game it's just it's say what you want about lead that's not a thing and uh he did say warm regards and

and i imagine you could demonstrate to folks that you're serious about lead because you probably, like myself as a youth, used to pack some lead shot in your lip while you were re-rigging your rods and stuff like that. And you probably, like myself, have quit doing that. Yeah, I would keep my split shot. Your water gremlin? Ice fishing. I'd keep some split shot over on this side of my cheek and gum, and I'd keep my maggots on this bit of my cheek and gum. Just like everybody yeah and like we're talking about this every day steelhead fishing because you're like you get to one hole it's deeper the other hole not you just keep a couple in your cheek and gum for just so you can very quickly like rig for where you're at not only that

we used to go down we had a gun range two miles from our house. We'd ride our bikes down to the gun range, put the flag out, and take a sifter and go sift the berm. For non-gun range users, typically there's some sort of a signal that says folks are down range, which means do not shoot. They're typically down there changing targets. But the Ranello boys would put the flag out saying, do not shoot, right? They're typically down there changing targets. Yeah. But the Ranello boys would put the flag out saying, do not shoot.

We're going to go sift through. Because we're sifting the berm. We would sift the berm for bullet lead, go home, melt the lead in the garage, because my dad had gotten us all the stuff to pour, and we would pour sinkers. And I'm telling you, man, the thing about those homemade sinkers made with bullet lead

is there's like alloys and that stuff. And you go to the sporting store and buy lead, and you go to bite it, it's nice and soft. And in fact, your tooth leaves a mark when you bite that lead onto the line. Our homemade sinkers, when you bit that lead onto the line,

you'd hear your teeth crumble a little bit and you couldn't dent that shit it's like and they didn't seem to be as heavy it's like kind of a weird deal like homemade sinkers but i would never let my kids do that my brother danny had a film jar full of mercury that we would get out and play with that he'd collect anytime he run across the thermometer he'd get the mercury out and we would like play and play with. That he'd collect it. Anytime he'd run across a thermometer, he'd get the mercury out, and we would play with Danny's mercury. I've done all of that. It's awesome.

I'm not in any way, I never wanted it to be that I'm down playing, that I'm just saying, that's all. I don't let my kids do stupid stuff that we didn't. We did stupid stuff because people weren't really aware. My old man, when he was in the army, they would give you cigarettes in your C-rations.

It's like, you know, over time, right? You learn things over time. Here's another guy who wrote about the lead thing. Now, this guy brings up a very valid point. Cal, I need you to be present for this. Oh, in doing this too, I want you to think about something. Okay. To Offerman's point,

is it even possible to bully a dead man? Well, there's that famous line, like, don't speak ill of the dead. That's speaking ill of the dead. Can you bully a dead man? No, no. That's speaking ill of the dead. Can you bully a dead man? No. I feel like you can't because they're not alive. No.

You're certainly not going to give them a wedgie. Cram it right up into his dry pelvis bone. Yeah, it's really got in my head. It's tearing me up, dude. A final bit of lead thing, and this is a bad one this is a tough one he goes to point out all this talk about everyone in the hunting and fishing communities switching over to copper lead so bad you know what let me give you a fact that would have given him a lot of ammunition but i don't know if he's aware of it if i was this guy writing this letter not to demean him i would have concluded how lead ammo is almost exclusively so we toured the federal ammo factory guess where

all the federal's lead comes from? Recycled car batteries. Their lead comes from recycled car batteries. Yep. That's like a little known fact. You go to the federal plant, it's like all of that lead that they're producing into ammunition is not coming out of the ground. It's post-use coming out of car batteries. Yeah, it's something like 90,

high 90 percentage recycle. Which is a lot, because like a car battery, three to five years. And it's funny, because they don't have, when you buy ammo, they don't like,

when you buy ammo from federal, it's not like they're like, made from recycled materials. It's like no one even knows this. That's where all that lead comes from. And that's a, as we are driven, boy, good word usage here so far as we're driven into the battery age right now that's something that was a big topic of conversation but all of a sudden isn't is okay well where's

the copper coming from that's what i'm getting to but But he says, so in the sport, you know, like non-toxic split shot for fishing, right? And he goes, but every time there's a big mine that comes up, who's the first people to bitch about it? Hunters and anglers. He doesn't say it by name, but he's probably speaking to the pebble mine and the headwaters of Bristol Bay, right? Copper and gold. Or boundary waters. Boundary waters. Copper mine.

Copper sulfide mines. And we're like, no, no, no, no, no. But lead is bad. Shoot copper. But I tell you what, when we cross the border into Mexico, what's sitting right on

the U.S.-Mexico border in Sonora? Don't know. Copper copper mines all that loud banging and explosions and stuff that you hear those are all copper mines and as our buddy beto put it said beto what are they mining over there he said copper for batteries for you. Oh, really? Yep. He says, how could, this is the person, the gentleman that wrote in. Very well worded email. How can we possibly maintain any sort of consistency or credibility if we simultaneously took the stance of no new copper mines where I like to hunt and fish and everyone please use copper? I suggest that we cannot do both. At least his current bullet development technology stance.

Goes on to say, a second and equally important issue, he says it always gets brushed aside or ignored, is the cost. The fact of the matter is most lead alternative ammunition, copper included, is expensive. And if demand suddenly jumped, it would become scarce and as a result even more expensive what would we accomplish then is to effectively sideline masses of hunters who either couldn't find or couldn't afford enough you know ammunition decided in two or

three rifles and have ammunition for their hunts he poses a hypothetical 300 household one of the things that helped us get through a switch from lead with non-toxic shot for waterfowl is we went to steel. Steel is abundant and still relatively cheap. It was attainable for your average hunter. Not the case with copper. He points out you're driving more of a situation where you have the haves go hunt, the have-nots don't. Says he still loves the show.

Well, I mean, it's all great points. I don't, the absolutism of, I think it's taken a little aggressively. He was being absolutist? You are driving. It's like, well, no. We had a good conversation on this very debatable topic of copper versus lead. And many of us have switched over to copper but there's i don't

believe anybody's saying you must shoot this i i feel like i'm sort of fence sitting on the whole thing well i love it for for me it's it's the raptor thing like i do i have a soft heart when it comes to that like i'm like oh yeah if i can mitigate killing more animals like the i don't i don't want to bycatch dead animals that i don't get a consume that are dying from secondary lead poisoning by shooting a copper bullet that that works for me um yeah but that yeah you're when you say i get it now you're saying you're making a consumer choice yes exactly and that's kind of like what the guest chris parish chris parish was saying he never came in and said i think they should outlaw x y and z right now

yeah saying you as a consumer you make choices all the time and there's a i mean you can still i california is just like the the weird outlier example because I you know at recreational ranges authorized ranges lead lead is still legal for recreational shooting at authorized ranges I don't know that I believe but in every other state you know you're still go shoot recreational lead at your recreational

range where it can then be recycled into more lead bullets, which is what all those ranges do. You know, periodically they harvest their berms and, and are able to sell it. Um, which is part of those, those places business plan. Um, and then, you know, when it comes time to hunt, you can make that consumer choice of shooting a copper bullet, a handful of copper bullets to make sure you're zeroed. And then your, your copper bullets for, for the actual hunt, you know, you know when you get into the alternatives for shotgun shooting uh here you can spend some you can spend a hell of a lot more money shooting bismuth then then you're gonna shoot copper bullets even if you're doing a lot of big game

hunting during the year but steel's still the a very effective and less expensive alternative, non-toxic alternative. Okay, Danny. I'll set it up like this. I had, because I've driven a lot of janky vehicles, right? And somebody at a parking lot came up to me and was harassing me about how much oil my vehicle was leaking. And I just, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not, wasn't going to make confrontation with him. I was like, yeah, okay, you know, no big deal.

I got to fix that. But same with the lead, right? Like where's lead come from? Comes from the earth, right? And so they're, same with oil, we're putting it back. You know, obviously I'm not dumping oil all over. Oh, come on. You're not putting it back into the earth. we're putting it back you know obviously i'm not dumping oil all over oh come on you're not putting it back into the earth you're putting it back like what's your i know that's what i was gonna say what's your take on that like so obviously i'm not dumping oil all

over right but you get good rain on the grocery store parking lot you watch that slick yeah start to form so obviously that goes like that's bad right that just goes right to our water source um but like with the lead i was thinking about the lead it comes from the earth obviously there's there's issues when it's getting processed or whatever maybe they're melting it down to make these bbs yeah there's that effect but as far as just taking lead and putting it back if i take rattlesnake poison and just put it all over your food, am I putting it back into the earth? Yeah.

I mean, good point. I'm just, you know. No, I mean. Venom, sorry, venom. Yeah. I mean, you're making it sound like, you know, lead. Or arsenic. If I put arsenic all over your food,

am I just putting it back in the earth? Yeah. You know. No, I think, I think it's an appropriate line of thinking. It's just, these things came from places in the earth that probably were not necessarily

meant to come to the surface. Like not on your food. Yeah. They were in the earth, but not on your food. Yeah. Just throwing it out. Like,

that's a good point. Yeah, definitely. Remember how I was saying i'm like i'm uh um i've been accused of being like a lead apologist and i've been accused of being anti-led but i'm like very much like just kind of like exploring the whole area right i'm exploring it another one that i can't that people keep writing in about but i can't formulate an opinion on i'm gonna hit you with it cal my home state there's a the man yeah there's a michigan Michigan National Guard in the Michigan's upper peninsula. They're looking to double the size

of Camp Grayling. Yeah. A military base. And to double it, they need to like annex a bunch of state-owned land that's currently open to public hunting and fishing.

People in the UP who are losing their long time, who would stand to lose their long time ancestral hunting and fishing grounds are pissed. They're going to lose access. If it happens. If it happens, they'll lose access.

I think it's very safe to say they will lose a certain amount of access. It's ambiguous though. And I struggle with being, I struggle with this one. And I'll tell you the two reasons why I struggle with it. I'm generally, not generally, I'm like very supportive. I like to live in a country with a very strong military.

Okay. I'm very like, I'm not hawkish. Like I don't want to go invade countries for no reason, but I'm like hawkish in that. I like want and support a powerful military. So there's that. Right.

Yeah. And there's the other one that I don't think it would lead to. Like if this was a was a giant housing project, it leads to loss of habitat. But what they're talking about isn't leading to like a net loss of habitat. They want to use it for training and stuff in an area where it's not like they're not like destroying the ground from a habitat perspective. Yeah. So it's hard to make an opinion about it yeah if it were a giant you know mega moguls housing development i would be irate

i'd be like because they're now it's like gone and and we'll never come back but here it's like it's still like for future generations that patch of ground is still going to be there functioning as an ecosystem. It's still in play, just not as good. Well, that's not true, right? You are going to lose some access. And it's a perfect conversation point to go with the lead, you know, well, but it's recycled type of thing. Because it's like, have your cake and eat it too. You want a big, strong military, but you don't want the military to have all the space to train um and i truly don't know the ins and outs of what they actually need versus how much they're annexing and all that stuff but they do need a lot of space and they're only closing it because

they're only closing it when they need it for training. So no one knows how much that'll be. And game management still stays under Michigan DNR. Yes. And if you look at other military bases where the public's allowed to hunt, there's a lot of those examples with lots of big deer, turkeys, bears, all that fun stuff. And life kind of goes on, but it's not going to go on in the same way that you have it now. Right. It's there's, um, you know, lots of examples of

like, Oh, it's a surprise training day. We got to shut the whole base down. And folks are traveling from out of state and tent on hunting where they've always hunted. And, you know, it's like, um, the Griswold family vacation. Sorry, folks, parks closed. How do you, it's like um the griswold family vacation sorry folks parks closed how do you how do you close the entire state of california um so yeah it's a tricky situation um i if it were happening in montana i would not want it to happen because i'm like, well, I don't want to lose any weekends. Right. And it's, it's kind of a not in my backyard type of thing. State of Hawaii has got a lot of, a lot of history with military. There is. Yeah. And a lot of the land is owned by military. Yeah. Yeah. The first time we came out here to hunt, we got to hunt on this really cool place on Maui and, uh, guys, just a big rancher, cattle rancher. And, uh, you're walking around all there's

shell fragments and, and, uh, 50 caliber casings all over the place, big chunks of lead laying out there. And then, uh, the first day first day uh the rancher was like well yeah did you see the crash plane out there too it's like no but then the second day here's this giant engine laying out in the middle of this this field that we came through and chunks of plane parts and all this stuff and and he could tell there's more to his story about how he felt about all that, but it was not good. It's like the U.S. military just comes over here and just blows the crap out of our islands. Yeah.

I mean, you know. Yeah. Times change, too. And the UP thing, for you folks in the UP, writing us about this, too, they're describing what they're going to be doing as low impact exercises right and then it is interesting because they need like uh cyber warfare is one of the reasons for the expansion and apparently they need like a big buffer

uh from civilization to run whatever it is they do with cyber warfare got it um which ideally doesn't sound like super impactful to the wildlife habitat environment etc and hopefully won't be closed down too much during hunting season if if it does in fact happen the other rub is that it's not like a standard lease with the state. So there's no lease fee that's coming from the government to the state lands, which I thought was interesting. Cal's like subject matter expert. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada.

And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there on x is now in canada the great features that you love in on x are available for your hunts this season the hunt app is a fully functioning gps with hunting maps that include public and crown land hunting zones aerial imagery 24k topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right.

We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you, you guys in the Great White North can be part of it. Be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit OnXMaps.com slash meet.

OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. Which of you guys is best, Danny and Kenny, which of you guys is best equipped to tell the story of the person that, unless you don't want to, the person that lost their life in the harbor here from a swordfish you probably know it better danny yeah i know his uh not his nephew but cousin or i don't know how they're related it's a big family um from my understanding a swordfish swam into the harbor.

And we get that like, you know, paddling down at Keoho or whatever, you'd see marlins come into the harbor down there randomly. Or there'd be big ahi. I don't know, they just lose their way or get curious. Either way, swordfish finds its way into the harbor. From my understanding, they've seen it from the surface. And they're like hey right there like what look at this how rare is that i'm gonna get in there and i'm a spirit so he got a spear gun out

speared it and you know from my understanding you know how you have your shoot line and it spears the fish and that shoot line's attached to either a float line or to his gun. Well, that thing went and wrapped around a mooring ball. So then that thing was stuck around a mooring ball and just swimming there. And you're thinking like, oh man, it's going to rip off or I got to get in there and I got to kill it. So while he was getting in there to try to get it, the thing poked him where it shouldn't have poked him.

Yeah, big powerful fish with a sword on its face and i don't know if you've seen those like broadbill the sword fish they're real flat bill not like the marlin bill we were sharp yeah and it's super sharp and uh he got poked in the chest and and that was that oh so just in the excitement of probably trying to get that fish. And I think we all kind of get into that state too of like, when something's like that happening, you're just trying to go off instinct and just like, there's a lot going on. And he probably just thought he had it.

He's going to make it happen. But yeah, it's sad. I bring that up because we were looking at a story um this is covered by the guardian which is funny because it's a european rag that loves american wildlife attack stories but a woman uh in florida was recently gored by a hundred pound sailfish. They were head on. They were fighting the fish.

The fish charged the boat. She's standing up in the wheelhouse by the wheelhouse. The fish charged the boat, jumped out of the water and impaled her. She survived though. I mean, I could see that. Like when we saw that marlin get hooked up next to Jonah's boat,

you seen how the thing was on the surface like that? That's how they are when you bring them up to the boat too. And they're jumping right next to the boat. I've seen a bunch of video of them. I've had them jump next to the boat, never turned towards the boat, but it's very nerve wracking when you got one that's we call it green,

but still a lot of life left in it. You know how it is leadering those fish. Well, here you are, this Marlin's got its bill facing you, you know, coming in towards you and you're leadering it. The business end. The business end. You're trying to get it closer and closer and you're trying to bring that head up where you can get a gaff in it or unhook it, whatever you're doing with it. And if they want, they just give it that little bit of a you know shake with their tail and they're out of the water like that you know i've seen video of it so um it could be

exciting yeah and they got that pokey thing i mean you've seen that i guess that marlin bill too has a bunch of bacteria on it because i've heard like you get you get poked by one you better get that thing cleaned out yeah those marlin bills are impressive, even in dried out state. I was saying, most of the time you take a fish part and dry it all out, it loses its integrity. Do you know what I mean? Everything gets crumbly and they kind of decay. Yeah.

But that thing is still, you could kill somebody with that thing. Well, they made weapons out of it. The Hawaiians had weapons. Oh, they did. Yeah. Yeah. out of it the hawaiians had oh they did yeah yeah steve would you uh add that uh scar from a billfish to your list of bodily attributes that you want to acquire not top mine no no not like shark bite the grizzly mauling um 68 miles an hour

like reputed to be the fastest fish in the ocean which i thought was the short fin mako but they're saying these suckers can go 68 miles per hour sailfish crazy about that that's fast oh they got that big sail too and they just flip that thing up and they can parachute them around and stop on a dime that it was funny reading about that that injury and the injury you're talking about is we have coming up here we have an expert uh who's an expert archaeologist who studies the coronado expedition so coronado was a Spanish conquistador, and he had this crazy-ass adventure where they left New Spain, so they left Mexico. And this is in 1540. And Coronado made it all the way up into Kansas in 1540.

So he made it all the way up into the Great Plains of Kansas in 1540. And what's funny is, if you separate, here's one of the main things I think is interesting about Coronado. The distance that separates Coronado's visit to Kansas from Lewis and Clark's visit to the Great Plains is the amount of time that separates us sitting here right now from the French and Indian War.

Crazy. European history in the interior of the country runs deep. 1540. So to bone up for this guest we're having on, I'm

reading a book about Coronado and the random ways people die. There's one of his lieutenants, one of his officers. They had some sheep with them and they had a greyhound with them for some reason. The greyhound with them for some reason. The greyhound chases the sheep one day,

and the guy's pissed at the greyhound for harassing the sheep all the time. And he rides after it on his horse and throws a lance to scare the dog off. The lance sticks in the ground the horse runs and the handle of the lance enters his groin and punctures his bladder and he dies some days later holy smokes you know I

had a thought as to we always like to think back on these times of like oh god how crazy would it have been to be on that trip like all the unknowns and stuff but i bet at that time they'd be just like us being like oh we have we have gps we have a track we have all this stuff and at that time they were like we have a sextant we have a map like we have the best technology out there we're we're better than anybody in the past has ever been like high confidence we'll get into this there's a guy there's a uh native american who celebrated

among his people for having led the Coronado expedition on a wild goose chase where he said, oh no, man, there's this amazing like city of gold and led them away from where they were harassing his people. This is one telling. We'll get into all this when we have the Coronado expert on. When Coronado gets up into Kansas and they're like, this guy's full of it,

they execute him for having fed him false information. Here's the other thing I'll say about the Coronado expedition. If you want to get a sense of where they're at mentally, one of the guys on the expedition has a dream

in which he kills his commander. He dreams that he kills Coronado and marries Coronado's wife. He comes and confesses to Coronado that he had this dream. Coronado doesn't punish

him, but he's not allowed to continue on the expedition because they need to protect the mission. I like, I like, I like. It's just so like, you know what I mean? Well, how about the mental state too? It's like, yeah, we're an invading army. We're stealing from your people. We're giving you communicable diseases.

This isn't pleasant. But how dare you lie to us? Yeah. Well, no, because their take on it was this. They were baffled when people didn't go along with the program. Their take on it is, your worries are over.

They're kind of like the mob. When they would approach tribe it is, your worries are over. They're kind of like the mob. When they would approach tribe, like, your worries are over. You now live under the jurisdiction of Spain, but no one will ever mess with you ever again. And it's not take it or leave.

It's like, no one will ever mess with you again, and if you don't agree, we will mess with you. But that's the selling point. it. It's like, no one will ever mess with you again. And if you don't agree, we will mess with you. But that's the selling point. Right. Your concerns are over. In order for you to say thank you, we'd like you to do X, Y, and Z.

I'm here to bestow upon you a great gift. Oh, you got to become Christian. Yeah. Here's the deal. No one will ever mess with you again. Any enemies you have, forget that they exist. That is the mob. Yeah. You's the deal. No one will ever mess with you again. Any enemies you have, forget that they exist. That is the mob. Yeah. You become Christian, your problems

are through. And they'd be like, why will these people not get on board? Like, look what we're giving them. More to come. This shit is fascinating, man. Oh, I bet. And they did it all in a bronze hat it's such like uh

a fishing guide writes in always wanted to become a fishing guide becomes a fishing guide he's an he guides alligator gar in houston texas but he has a problem of finding dead bodies. They recently found two. He found one and his buddy found one. Dead bodies bound up inside recycling bins, dumped in the marsh. He contacts the police to be like, dude, this is kind of stressing me out. And they tell him, I wouldn't worry about it. It seems like they were killed somewhere else and just dumped there.

That's almost like a modern art type of thing. He's like, where do I draw the line? Put a body inside a recycling bin. Yeah, but here's the thing. What if you come across this guy dumping these recycling bins? That's what he's getting at. Exactly.

He's like, I don't want to quit this has always been my dream but like how do you like it's hard to work in this environment yeah and he cites a bunch of other like just the proximity to crime when you're guiding there last one i was talking about we we were talking about the carp the um asiatic carp species that have joined the european invasive carp in certain watersheds so you we've always we've had common carp here since the 1800s all over one of the primary i don't know do you guys have do you guys have common carp in your waterways in Hawaii? Not really. Okay. Needed as Alaska.

It's one of the top invasive species in the country is common carp. In recent decades, it's been going on forever now. Big head, silver, what else? Yeah, the silver is like the Asian carp. So is the big head but the big head right they are yeah but they're

two different species they these are like like a plankton feeding largely herbivorous carp species they brought them into the country to clean aquaculture facilities yeah so they'd use them at catfish farms and they turn these carp out and these live in there, and they suck the algae and stuff up. But then with flooding, they all get into the river system. Now it's this whole ecological disaster. We covered that, and I shared the sentiment of a biologist who said to me, I don't see a way out of this if it's not a disease solution but there seems to be limited appetite for introducing a virus where they've been able to eradicate fish species and like connected bodies

of water it's typically like a three-pronged approach where they use some mechanical deterrence against the species uh during their their spawning season so they prevent them from going to where they they need to go to spawn you know their preferred spawning areas um then they use uh poison and then other like mechanical like rotenone rotenone yeah yeah yeah um but the social tolerances for all this stuff are pretty low and then you know there's also like significant like bycatch and then in these areas that are like super when you when you wrote known a water system everybody dies. Yeah. But they'll now then do it. It's like, what was that thing in Vietnam?

You got to burn the village to save it. I remember they've had breakouts of non-natives. And they're like, this three miles of river is getting cooked. And kill everything in a stretch of river just to get the culprit yeah right trusting that it'll recover over time you know yeah yeah um so yeah it's and then there's the other mechanicals like traps gill nets stuff like that but it's uh and then rotenone is obviously like a water soluble um god it's a poison of south american root um and so they they have a bunch of models as to how much they can put in and then at what stages throughout the uh water column or river system that it will

dissipate for to be like non-lethal um because i think at a certain point like fish can recover but it's suffocates fish right is that how it works yeah did you see where me and yanni went with those um those dudes that use a different route i can't remember the word they use for it sounded like Tabasco, but it wasn't Tabasco. Yeah. It's like, yeah. A little Tabasco sauce in there. It's like Barbasco. They had a root.

They had a plant. And they went and they poisoned the fish. But it just mostly killed them. And then they'd go shoot them with their bows. And then the effects would wear off. But while they were mostly dead, they'd be up gulping at the surface, and they'd just go out and shoot them all with their bows.

And it was like a regular fish harvest method. And they got the plant growing all around their house, all around their village, you know. I've done that in rural China, like with these Chinese ladies who would just go and they would sing songs, a tribe, and they would smash up this root. I forget what it was called. And then they would just put and they would sing songs at a tribe and they would smash up this root. I forget what it was called. Then they would just put it upstream and it would temporarily what they would say is make the fish go to sleep.

All the fish would float and we would just go catch them with our nets before they'd wake up. Then you'd see them waking up and swimming off. What these guys would do to improve it is they'd be in side channels. And the first thing they'd do is build rock walls to slow the current down,

poison the side channel, shoot what they wanted, and then open up the barricade to let clean water flush through to help resuscitate the fish they didn't want. Either way, long story short, Australia is poised to do what I said there's little appetite to do. They are considering, the Australian government is considering using a type of herpes virus

as a biological agent to reduce the population of carp. Yeah, carp herpes is a thing. And we recently had a breakout here in the U.S., which is really interesting. They think it came from domestic goldfish being released into waterways. Let that be a notice for you parents. Just say no when your kid wants that

old nasty goldfish swimming around in the plastic bag at the fair this summer. Goldfish brought herpes in. That's the theory. Yeah, or flush it down the toilet like we used to. Not that. That's the smartest thing to do. Rather than turn it loose in your waterway.

Or just eat it. Yeah, do that. It's got herpes, so let's eat it. You don't want to do that though when you're burying your next coffee plant throw a few goldfish in the bottom of it yeah uh where do we start tell me your fit like what was your favorite thing of the days that we spent fishing together kimmy i already have my um oh gosh well, that was just one day I had four highlights of our whole little diving trip we just had. There'd be a lot of highlights.

And do you want me to say them? I feel like, okay. Hit me with the four, yeah. It would definitely be you getting your first mahi. That was a for sure highlight because that mahi was being really tricky at first a nice big bull mahi got me so excited to see it there i haven't seen one like that big in a while they've been showing up small lately and so to see that and have it be such a tricky fish i mean i feel like you should just tell a story now. You got to tell it because he was. He was being a pain in the ass.

So basically, first time blue water diving for you, right? Not really? Anyway, we jump in. We did like, I guess, borderline that for about an hour one time. Okay. It was like a little detour on an otherwise, and nothing happened. Well, we jump in at a buoy, a fad, and I immediately see this big bull mahi, and nothing I can do will bring this mahi into us. Remember, I was throwing the flasher, throwing fish, and it was just staying on the outskirts. Yeah, Kimmy keeps a fish tucked in her sleeve. Yeah.

What kind of fish is that? That was an akule, a scad mackerel, I believe, but a bait fish. it was just staying on the outskirts yeah kimmy keeps a fish tucked in her sleeve yeah what kind of fish is that that was an akule a scad mackerel i believe but she keeps tucked in her sleeve and then you'll look like when you're on the surface so i mean you're in at that point in time we're in 15 000 feet of water yeah so you like but all these pelagics are like i mean that fish was almost like like at the surface yes i, inches below the surface. Yes. Where you got to go down to almost look over and see him. But it keeps that fish. And then you see a fish way off.

And one trick is to come up and literally throw the fish like a baseball to try to land it over yonder and get its attention. Totally. And he wasn't falling for that. He would pay attention. I would get their attention with a splash. And he'd kind of turn and look at it. But he was not interested, not committing. And so that was falling for that. He would pay attention. I would get their attention with a splash. And he'd kind of turn and look at it. But he was not interested, not committing. And so that was a bummer.

But we decided to do another drift, you know, getting it at the same. We drifted past the buoy. We decided to do it again anyway. And this time as we're setting up, we just see these huge pilot whales everywhere, which are pretty impressive, intimidating, apex predators of the ocean that just love to gobble up mahis and tuna and have big old teeth. And I was

like, you guys still want to get in? And everyone still wanted to get in, so we did. Because there's a famous story where one grabbed people now and then. Oh, yeah. People have died because of pilot whales pulling them under and toying with them, for sure. But when we get in, as soon as we jumped in, you didn't see it,

but I looked at the buoy from far, far away, and I could see that same bull, Mahi, and this time he was doing super duper tight circles around that buoy. And I just like, was like, oh, he's really scared because there's all these pilot whales all over. And so he's just trying to find shelter. He's wrapped around the buoy.

Totally. It was amazing. Like he was like glued to it in a circle. Totally. Like just conforming his whole body around this buoy. And at the time you just took a nice graceful dive like glued to it in a circle. Totally. Like just conforming his whole body around this buoy. And, and at the time you just took a nice graceful dive to check out what was below you.

But I saw him so far away. As soon as you even just dipped under, he did his last circle and left. And I was just like, shoot, he's still going to be hard to get, you know? But I,

I turned to Justin and I said, I said i said you know i just saw this buoy doing these tight circles i think it's scared of pilot whales and i think it's so scared that if we ever dive we're not going to have a chance but maybe if we could just float if he ever comes back if he ever comes back and does that again if we just kind of float up to it, maybe we can get it. And Justin's like, oh, yeah, okay. Later he told me he just was thinking like that will never work. But anyway, Steve, we see some onos, we see some other things, but there's not really too much going on. We're not getting close to anything. And maybe after like 10 or 15 minutes, I just saw the mahi coming back. And so I just grabbed Steve and I just said, that mahi is going to go straight to the buoy.

It's going to start doing these circles around the buoy. You cannot dive, but you have to somehow get to that buoy. I'm going to stay back. I don't want too much pressure on it. But when you go there, you just have to stay on the surface. You have to drift. You're like driftwood. You know, you are not a hunter.

You are not a pilot whale. You are just a piece of wood drifting. See how close you can drift to this mahi and then shoot it from the surface. Don't go under and just shoot it. And to just stay back and watch in such high anticipation as you and Justin,

who is filming right behind you, it was like watching a cartoon of you guys just like drifting in, kicking whenever the mahi turned away from you, not kicking when he is facing you. And just that gap that you closed so patiently, so slowly, and then just watching you shoot that mahi,

that was by far a huge highlight. That was so cool. That was a highlight for me and and uh generous of you because i realized like uh i don't notice that i don't notice things that good yet well it's gonna take like you guys are always like oh there's that there's that there's that yeah i never get to be the one that's like hey well it's not true that you never get to be the one because my next highlight would be you getting your first oh no like this is just incredible that you got your first mahi and your first oh no on this trip but you getting your first oh no that was something that you did 100 on your own like i might've put a backup shot in it, but you saw it on your own.

I wasn't, I didn't even see it. You know, you saw it. I was watching Cal, I was watching you down underwater, trying to take a shot on a little tuna. And I was so fixated on you that I didn't see these onos swimming. Steve saw them, immediately did his thing, went after one and shot one. And yeah,

I just remember looking down and when you came back up, more tuna came in. So I was saying, you know, dive, Steve, dive. And I looked up and had no idea where you were. You weren't anywhere. I kind of panicked and I felt afraid that I lost you. It was a little sharky that day. It was very sharky. And it's just, you know, I just always try to count my duckies and keep you guys all in order and when one goes missing it really freaked me out mama duck goes on high alert yeah um but uh danny was on the boat thank goodness keeping an eye on everybody and just was like steve's here and he's on and to swim over and see that you shot an ono like that was crazy you did it all on your own it was great and they're not easy fish to shoot no it's not like that's huge i just was a wahoo for yes those views that was awesome oh yeah i was i was pumped too yeah yeah i mean, it was a goat rope from the way outside coming in.

Sharks and running line all over the place and all the stuff. I just couldn't fathom that that thing made it to you whole. Oh, yeah. I know. Kimmy shot one, and man, that happened fast. These are big fish. I don't know like 40 inches maybe more than that

it was the same size as your own and the way it just like shot one and half of it just vanished in that thing's mouth we had the shark next to us and that shark just beelined straight to you guys and right there I knew like oh man they got some action or something's going on

so I pick my head up and look and sure enough you guys are fighting a fish and that shark just came over because there's no way from where we were that shark could not see what you guys were doing the visibility of this trip was was absolutely staggering you could see for as far i think as i've ever been able to see in the ocean. It's good vis. But we were way outside of visibility range. So that shark felt something. Oh, yeah. As soon as she shot that fish, that shark was like, oh, boy. Yeah.

Yeah. He was like chilled down, you know, like lower right-hand corner of the visibility spectrum. And then all of a sudden, he just goes, boom. Yeah. I mean, they have those lateral lines designed to just pick up vibrations of a fish in distress and so when i shot my ono and it started doing its you know dying thing um that shark just closed that gap in a matter of seconds and i always have theories of what what to do to save your fish from

getting eaten by a shark but there are some times like that where there's just nothing you can do he just committed right away and just gobbled that thing well we got we got a third of it yeah yeah which yeah it was a win still a good amount of sashimi uh these are oceanic white tip sharks yeah and i know you still got more highlights to go but i want to tell you one of my highlights is they travel with highlights. They have pilot fish. Yeah. Which travel with them. They do. It's like a blue striped fish.

Go look at shark photos. You'll see the pilot fish hanging out with them. We got to talk about the table. They look like tasty little fish. They look very edible. I never thought of it that way until Steve said. What does a pilot fish taste like? And Kimmy took a three-pronged spear and shot.

It was like a person walking a dog, and she picked off his pilot fish. His Pomeranian. She picked off the shark's pilot fish. And I didn't know if the shark would be mad and then want to get you for having gotten his pilot fish, but he had two, and he didn't seem to care. He didn't seem to care.

I wasn't sure either. He shed zero tears. He shed for having gotten his pilot fish, but he had two and he didn't seem to care. He didn't seem to care. I wasn't sure either. He shed zero tears. He shed zero tears for his pilot fish. No, when you said that, when you said, what does a pilot fish taste like? And I said, I don't know. We both just looked at it and we're like, that thing looks so tasty.

Let's see if we can get it. It is a weird thing to say that you're impressed by how a shark can move in the water. It's like, well, no shit. But to witness it in a bunch of different scenarios, they can just do

whatever they want, even when you're surrounded by very graceful, capable people in the water. Oh, totally. They're very different. They're designed for it. Yeah. If they want you, you're getting it.

You know what I mean? That's why not one of those sharks want to get after us because if they did, you'd know it. As much as we bump them off and stuff, there would be almost nothing you could do. If he really got serious about it. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes.

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if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. I know you got more highlights, but I just want to have an observation. You hear so much about human impacts in the ocean and ghost nets. So a ghost net would be like, or ghost traps, like abandoned fishing equipment that continues to function. Where we trap crabs and shrimp in Alaska, instance you have to rig your traps or there's basically a slit in the nylon mesh netting and you sew that slit up with cotton twine and then

the regulations specify the diameter like the thickness of the twine and meant to be that if you lose or abandon the trap in short order that cotton twine will degrade and the trap will cease to function because if not she gets in the trap it dies it baits in more stuff that comes into the trap it dies like when you said a shrimp pot and shrimp get in there and then octopus gets in there and then like you it just continues to kill shit so we go up to a buoy and there is a hunk of look like car not fishing net it looked like a hunk of cargo net yeah like a hunk of cargo net hung up on the buoy chain

and in the hunk cargo net is though is a big rainbow runner gill netted on it totally still alive the weirdest thing like when i saw it i i like i ran through all these like what like did someone store it there like i couldn't understand just like alive in the net he got he somehow jammed his head into a scrap no bigger than a half bed sheet of cargo netting hanging off a buoy chain and he tried to swim through it then so there was that well i feel like that might have happened somewhat because you think that shark would have got after it right like that's the second thing i thought is why did the shark not eat why did the shark not eat the fish that's stuck in the net it was like it just happened Then we saw two sharks carrying big leaders with hooks.

I saw a tuna carrying a leader with a hook. And then we saw another shark that had gotten himself tangled up in a hunk of rope where he was like lassoed by a hunk of rope that had seven feet of barnacle-encrusted rope hanging off of it, cutting into his skin. One of the camera guys grabbed the rope and tried to saw the rope off. As soon as you grabbed the rope, he had all that open wound.

And that was the only thing that you could poke that shark in the nose all day long, it wouldn't bother him. The one thing that bothered that shark is when you grabbed that rope. Yeah. And then he'd take off and you couldn't get the rope cut off him.

Yeah, the rope was around this shark like literally like a bucking bull at the fair. Right? So it's perfectly like midsection just ahead of the dorsal fin with the tag end coming off. Like somebody was going to straddle the shark behind the dorsal and hang on to that thing. You'll absolutely see that shark in the show. I would hope. It almost looked like it,

that beautiful big shark trailing that rope, and it was so symmetrical the way it was around him and just laid on him and had all that stuff grown on it. It almost was like artistic. It looked like a shark wearing a scarf. Yeah. It had an artistic quality. If you could arrest it from everything,

it was this beautiful thing of him coming up through the water column, trailing that heavy frayed. But how in the world did he get that on him? I so badly wanted to cut that thing off just to be like, oh, cut that thing off. What is a rainbow runner? Kamanu is the hawaiian word um is it part of a i would guess it's a part of the mackerel family would be my guess but i don't know yeah i was thinking of mackerel or jack but i don't know i would guess yeah i don't know but

they look real similar to the like i mean, not exactly like the yellowtail in California, but they have similar things to them, you know? Yeah. A little bit more slender, a little bit more sleek, but got that bright orange tail or bright yellow tail. When you consider the vastness of the ocean, and obviously those buoys do attract life, and that's why folks go out there

and fish but like a jack to come across this rainbow runner which is a jack stuck in that cargo net in a place where the sharks were looking to eat food so yeah i would go with the theory that it just happened but like what are the odds of like in this giant blue pond bottomless pond to come across something that just happened on the day that you just happened to be there is bizarre to me like just weird how stuff happens it was a score i was just like i saw steve trying to get it free and i'm like well stick a stick a knife in his brain first like so yeah so i get him out of there and he wiggles away yeah i wasn't sure if you were trying to free him or what but it's a good eating fish no i used the word rescue but that wasn't quite the word yeah that was funny

later when it was dead and i was about to fillet it you're like look at the one we rescued okay hit me with another highlight next highlight was when the crew started fishing and seth hooked into a tuna was cranking it up like a champ. And you weren't giving the gaff up because Sam was cranking up a tuna on the other side. And so you needed it for her. But our fish was boat side already and we needed a gaff. And I just found this little baby gaff, this little handheld hook thing. Yeah, 14-incher.

Like a little captain hook hook. Yeah. Not even 14 incher. Oh, is it a metal one? Yeah. Okay. And just got to stick it with that and help get it in the boat. That was really exciting. Like I just

started jumping up and down and clapping. Yeah, I was like frantically looking for a gaff and I turned around and the fish was in the boat. I was like frantically looking for a gaff and I turned around and the fish was in the boat. I was like, oh, great. We hit the tuna. It was like, well, anybody can catch tuna type of timing, right? It was like bait goes in the water.

You wait a minute, 30 seconds. Start cranking. Yeah, that was pretty rare for it to be like that and amazing for you guys to see that the way they're jumping out of the water too like that was so fun oh gaff and tune is stressful so it is so you guys got a long leader yes and you and you reel up and eventually get where the leader hits the rod tip so you can't reel anymore and then someone puts on gloves or not and starts wrapping their hand around that leader and bringing the fish up and danny's telling me like i'll tell you when to gaff it so i'm thinking he's gonna say gaff it when it's like

you know tuckered out like laying at the surface dragging along the side of the boat and he's you can look down he's down cutting big cookies yeah big circles and i'm like just chilling thinking like eventually it'll be up here and it'll be like placid you know and i'll hook it in the boat and i'm not even kind of ready and that thing's going he's like now i'm like i didn't know he meant like that yeah you sink that gaff and it pulled up but then we were with a dude named jonah who fishes tuna commercially i don't know i'm sure you've seen this move he gets him on the leader and just has a baseball bat yeah and not even gaffed it gets up and yeah if you can see it's just cold cock and it stuns it yeah as they're coming up you can look

at where the hook is so if you know you got a good hook placement you got some time you know but yeah yeah put them to sleep those fish respond to a blow to the head like you wish other fish would yeah i mean a blow to the head on one of those is like dunzo yeah i feel like it's a bigger fish too and reducing pretty big bats like they don't you know move much when you hit them you hit something small and they kind of go with the flow this thing's got some mass behind it yeah the uh efficiencies between uh recreational technique and commercial technique there's there's some big differences there like jonah's on the side of the boat he's uh cranking the thing up grabbing the leader bat whack gaff

in the boat like on to the next one he would and we're over making videos get a picture oh my god he would like whack it with the bat and reach down in his gills pull all that stuff out with his hand and then pull it in the boat like and we're like over there trying to cut it out real nice with knives and whatnot that's one dude i would not want to get punched by man what do you guys call sucker punch in hawaii false crack would not want to get false cracked by a man false crack medevac that's right yeah one crack medevac one crack okay how many more you got one more highlight um i guess my my next highlight would just be um seeing that beautiful ecosystem of everything from bait fish to mahis and onos and shark all underneath just that floating barrel

we found so so not you know the expected not the state buoy but we just came across like a piece of trash basically a white plastic floating barrel that didn't even look like it had been in the ocean that long it didn't have that much growth on it but the minute you get in the water it's just crazy what a universe is around it that was exciting someone brought up the the obvious point that can't be ignored who was it that said something about you know everything plastics in the ocean plastics in the ocean i think he brought it up seth brought it up and then you jump in under a plastic barrel floating in the ocean and holy shit yeah right now you're like well how could this be bad yeah it's like what this ocean needs is more plastic barrels

yeah steve made this comment about these sharks being such jerks and he's like they they don't learn they repeatedly do the same. And like one thing that was real interesting shark behavior was we, we observed these white tips biting Danny's flashers, which is like understandable. They're meant to attract fish, but the same shark would hit it, have a very negative reaction. Like irritated,

like irritated, did not like it visibly, did not like it. Body language. Just like, yeah, don't like that. 30 seconds later, he'd come back and try it again, you know? And so Steve was like, yeah, they're like high school jerks that stuck around town.

And still bully them. They hang out outside the campus and bully the high schoolers. Yeah, and Steve was just was just like god like why didn't these sharks just like leave the buoy and go do something good with their lives instead they're just hanging out being bullies but yeah i do feel like that oceanic white tip under that plastic barrel that was the one that left and like did something with his life and he was so nice and cool yeah kimmy comes to the conclusion like this is it this is the opposite this is here's the the grown-up you know got sick of all the ass slapping and went and found his own little place and yeah and that i mean the sharks really really was the top highlight for me like watching all the

different behavior watching watching them move around and and then being like oh my gosh really got to pay attention to these the aggro ones and but then also like some of the more beautiful things that i saw the things that are stuck in my head are like the bait fish congregating around the sharks and then them just doing these big lazy circles and kind of like half spins through the sunlight and stuff was unbelievable. Like really, really amazing. And then like those pompano mahi that the cool, the laid back shark who's doing something with his life was swimming with. Like that was just an awesome scene to just sit and watch over and over again. One of the things I appreciate about the, the way the oceanic white tips move is you imagine most fish when they're

like ascending or descending a water column, a lot of times they'll do a movement. It's almost like someone going up a spiral staircase, right? They keep their, they keep their orientation relative to like the planet, right? Like his pec fins are down and they'll climb and descend, but stay basically upright.

But the way those sharks, like they really are living in a three dimensional space where when they're ascending the water column, they're perfectly vertical like they climb perfectly vertically and they're gliding too sometimes you don't see like you know you realize when you see you're like not many fish do that do you mean like climb like like totally vertically they're like they're like a person going up a straight ladder and it's like they're just divorced from yeah like the normal mechanics of what you imagine you know how things move and i saw that vertical orientation was when

they made up their mind to go from point a to point b they're like huh what is that diver it's such a crazy thing like i feel like the sharks just add i mean those the bully sharks like just add a whole another like layer of kind of like stress in your mind you know that you have to kind of deal with because they sometimes will get a little aggressive or nippy at you and um and it just it's one more thing that you have to think about while trying to hunt. As if trying to hold your breath, dive down, and shoot a tuna isn't enough to think about. Then you also have to think about the sharks on your back. And it's such a crazy...

And literally on your back. On your back. There were dives where you couldn't divorce the shark from like the outline of the diver. And so you can't always just look straight ahead at your target because you always kind of have to be checking what the shark's doing and if you have to poke it away or whatnot. And that just, it changes everything. It changes your movement. It changes everything, you know?

And so it really is like this dance of um trying not to care about the sharks to the point where you can hunt but not turning that care off so much where you're complacent and going to get yourself in trouble and it really is this weird fine line but it helps to have your buddies like all around you poking them off and that's what i think we all just had to have trust in is like okay i'm doing this dive i'm after this fish if there's a shark about to eat me somebody's gonna poke it yeah yeah and then that's that's definite faith because we we had situations where there were five divers six divers in the water and everybody essentially in a circled wagon formation poking at the same shark who's like not getting the message that he's not wanted in the circle right yeah it's wild

yeah i know that first day you know steve had asked what he what i expect to see out there and instead of saying ma he's onos, you know, my first thing was saying sharks. And I kind of felt bad about that, right? Cause like, I didn't want to put like any negative spin on it. I just knew that we were going to see them and that was going to be like a obstacle to overcome just to get in every comfortable with it. And that was, and I told you guys that like, Hey, first day, first couple of dives, let's get in the water and just get comfortable. Especially before we go to some of those spots we went to because i knew there'd be more of them let's just get kind of an idea on how they move and stuff and i mean to to be able to relax through that for you guys is huge because

i i've spent a ton of time with them kimmy spent a ton of time with them i i don't want to say it makes it easier but it definitely makes it easier you know because i kind of know what to expect a little bit and you know you could always have that one but regardless for you guys not having that much time with with that type of shark and everything i felt like you got you know i totally i it took me like years i feel like to like get that comfortable with sharks you know like at first when sharks would come I just wanted to leave the situation or if a shark took my fish I was just like we are not getting back in right here you know and um it just it just took like repetition and years and

whatnot until I was able to develop that comfort of like, okay, we can still hunt and bump elbows together. But you guys are just doing it. Well, I mean, a lot of your confidence comes from your compadres in the water, right? It's like, well, these folks were here because these folks know what they're doing. And this is how they behave. I mean, you got to adapt that type of behavior pretty quick. It's not like, hmm, Kimmy and Danny don't know. They don't seem to know what they're doing out here

with the local wildlife. And I try to keep a reality check too because I have friends that get real complacent with it. So I always in the back of my head like, hey, that thing's the real deal. You know, like I said, if that thing wants you, it's done. Well, look at the Ono, right? The Ono, like that is a stick of dense muscle.

And it was shredded like a paper slicer. It was vaporized and just in that shark's belly immediately like in seconds yeah yeah and there's a big spinal column that runs down the middle of it i got one last thing i want to say about fishing um we were fighting in a tuna and the tuna was pretty played out it's got close to the boat and also i just and i said oh he's running for dane's like that ain't him it was because the shark yeah yeah like a shark could grab them and just headed for the depths with them and i was like oh and then pretty soon now kimmy's about to say bit the line kimmy's about to say i should have reeled faster but i was paying attention and

i i don't know if there's anybody reeling faster on the boat for other fish i mean yeah it was just one of those a lot of work it's tiring though right like it's tiring you know it's just like when you're reeling that thing in and it can be tiring. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, Kimmy, it was fast. I mean, it was to the boat fast. I think that was a nice fish. Yeah, that shark. I think it was a nice fish.

It's all good. We paid the tax. We got enough fish. Hey, we paid the tax, man. Yeah. Yeah, we paid our taxes. I paid them twice. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm just curious what that shark looked like to be able to haul that tune off. Yeah, and like Steve said, what a meal. You know, if that was a 40-pounder, that shark just got it. Yeah, shark. What a meal. I will say in regards to the white tips too, right? It's like, you know, definitely get your confidence and playbook from the the folks that you're swimming with but i bet i picked up the silhouette of silhouette and outline of a white tip in my brain a lot faster than a lot

of the prey species that were after like i was i was like way out there i'm like oh i see you coming yeah like with the white tips yeah uh want to close with a question for you now we recently had a guest on Seth Cantner came on the show and he grew up outside of Kotzebue was raised in a sod hut

living off the land and he was laughing about their perspective on caribou you know like in the native cultures and the way he was laughing about their perspective on caribou. You know, like in the native cultures and the way he was brought up, it'd be like if someone gets a caribou, it's, was it fat? Right? Meaning all they're looking at is the rump.

Yeah. And he said, and then folk like me are like, was it big? Meaning antlers uh we're gonna spend the next few days bow hunting for feral sheep feral sheep in hawaii am i like what are your thoughts on the fact that i want to get like a lamb i have no problem with that is that a normal desire yes okay i don't know i don't know if it's a normal desire because, yeah, there is that like, for us, definitely. For us, yeah. Yeah, like that is for us, it's food. You know, like a lot of the hunting I do, I'm not very picky.

Even when I go elk hunting and stuff, I'm not very picky, obviously, right? Like if the opportunity's there, cool. But especially at home, we're not very picky. It's food. You know, we're looking at it as like okay there this is the grocery store yeah and sometimes you know whatever you want to say oh that one's tender whatever sometimes you just don't want that much meat either you know so there's no like um there's no stigma against shooting a lamb like there would be if you targeted a spotted

deer phone no and and i can be a little picky with it like the last time i shot a smaller one you know i'm looking like okay here's a female is it pregnant is it you know how old is it and they're like okay this is kind of like a yearling doesn't look pregnant like this is probably a good one i could shoot you know so there's a little bit of a thought process that goes behind it um but i got no problem with that i think it just really helps that um there's such invasive species here in hawaii so whether you're going to shoot a little access fawn or whether you're going to shoot a little you know lamb like it is also like good for the forest that you're doing so um it doesn't matter what size

right because it's just like taking one out is just like one less of like a very overpopulated species got it i got a a couple days hunting with a mutual friend of these guys sean uh over on maui and we were walking back to the truck and we got into this like very nice even tall grass meadow and we started walking through there there were axis deer fawns like i i'm not exaggerating like jackrabbit size and they just start like popping out of the grass in front of us popping popping popping and i keep hearing sean saying this word behind me and i i'm kind of quasi paying attention and then i finally turned to him and he's like tasty he's like it's tasty

it's tasty and then i was like oh okay got it And then I missed and didn't get something. I mean, nobody thinks twice, right? Like they see lamb chops on the menu. Nobody thinks twice. And it's sad that our general population kind of is a little bit more disconnected from where their food comes from. But yeah, no one thinks twice about lamb chops on the menu. Yeah, something we brought up,

the age of domestic livestock at slaughter. The one thing, and I regret it, that I shielded my kids from, I shield them from all kinds of things when it comes to internet and whatever, but the one natural food

acquisition act, like a very human, natural natural ancestral activity that i've shielded my kids from and i regret it was slaughtering lambs um and i was like man i thought about it i had my buddy take him over to check out this little pond while they were slaughtering these lambs and then later i'm like man they like why not yeah do you know i mean totally i think i read that in your book for some reason it just like struck me like like i should send them off then later i'm like that

was chicken shit i just shot a little ram a few um like a week ago and i thought about that part in your book where you sent the kids off so they didn't have to see it and i was like wondering if i was going to traumatize buddy by bringing back this dead animal black sheep yeah it's cute fluffy thing and then skinning it and taking it apart but i just went for it and it went great yeah yeah he helped me i mean yeah yeah people ask like what's the best time to introduce your kids to like animal death um i usually say like early enough or they don't or they never even realize you know i mean yeah yeah like it's not like a day when all of a sudden it's just like it's just like a part of life and yeah why ever have like just have it be ingrained that that's like a thing

that happens but yeah in that case i didn't and um yeah later on kind of questioned my own judgment on it yeah when they're younger they don't know any better right like you don't know any better you could be raised and with something that's not within someone's other morals you know but you don't know any better so there's that time and i know with my daughter you know i'd be i'd be bow hunting and stuff but i did try i just didn't want her to be grossed out by it because some of that stuff is stank you know like you're gutting something and you're like to me it's even like oh this thing so stinks so like as a little kid you know they're gonna be like ew gross but I've taken her sheep hunting when she was kind of old enough to kind of understand what but

the goal was always just hey it's food it's no It's no big deal. You know, like that's it. I didn't try to make a big deal out of it. Like I didn't sit there and try to explain the whole thing. I just kind of let it happen. And she knew that I would go hunting and she wouldn't be there when I clean it, but then we'd eat it. So she knew where it came from. Yep.

So then when it was the time for her to be there cleaning with it, and actually the pig that I served you guys that first night, she helped me clean that thing too. And yeah, it's just a normal part of life. And it's either you teach them when they're young enough to where they don't know any better, or you just make sure it's the right time. Because I could see there being a wrong time

where they get either grossed out by it or they're saddened by it. It being a little lamb and they just think of these little cartoon baby lambs or something and you're killing them. Your daughter's got a great approach to food though, man. She cracked me up last night. She comes in, starts eating shrimp,

eats about a half pound of raw tuna, starts eating cows, shovel their ducks. She's just like no even like no even like sort of part of her brain that would be like yeah the impressive part of the ducks too you got to point out it's like oh this one's fishy but then she came back and tried a different duck which i mean for even adults is well i told her too the reason it's fishy as well is Cal slathered it into oyster sauce. Yeah, well, she said, you know, it tastes like oysters. I was like, don't blame the duck.

That's Cal Ann's giant bottle of oyster sauce. Steve and I both went into panic mode. It's like, oh, no, don't imprint the duck is like this. This particular duck is like this. That's the oyster sauce talking right there, not the shoveler. And we never, like when she was younger, my wife's a big part of this,

is that she never got any special meals. You know, whatever we're making, no matter how like obscure it was or weird flavors, she never got no mac cheese. She never got no chicken nuggets, none of that. You're either eating what we're eating for dinner or you're not eating. Dude, man, if I had one,

like that is my primary parenting suggestion yeah if i could be so audacious as to have parenting suggestions it was hard right don't fall into the trap of making separate shit at their time yeah and there is stuff like you got to be you got to understand like some everybody has their own personality. So some stuff she just doesn't like. Yeah. So it's like, that's all good. Don't eat that. You know, it's no big deal.

Try it, but you don't have to eat it, you know. Light bite. That's what we call it. But yeah, she'll eat. I mean, when she was younger, she used to eat raw onions. Just like piece of raw onion, whatever. She has a super good palate too. That's awesome.

You can give her something. She'll tell you what's in it. Oh, buddy of mine? This is good clothes. Good way to close. And you know Ben. Oh, sorry. One more thing here.

Danny's daughter just had her 12th birthday and her great grandma rolls up to the house and, you know, like in your standard birthday bag and Zadie looks inside and she's just like super excited oh my gosh pulls out two mangoes two mangoes from grandma's tree for her 12th birthday and she is just like was overjoyed that's great oh yeah and I was's awesome. I laughed about that because my old man he's talking about like growing up real poor

and he would say that for Christmas he's like you would get an apple or an orange. And it was a big deal. That's awesome. Perspective right? Especially an orange. In December. Not an orange game station. No. And orange was a real treat in orange. In December. Not an orange game station.

An orange was a real treat in December. My goodness, what do they come up with next? What was I going to say? You were going to close with something that was going to be really compelling. I'm not sure what it was.

Kids eating. I ruined it. Ben. Your friend Ben. He's been on the show. Ben Binion. compelling and i'm not sure what it was kids ruined it yeah your friend oh your friend ben yeah writes in he's been on the show ben binion um uh texican he's a land manager commercial hog trapper he fattens a pig every year from the family's table scraps that's what he fattens it on and we were talking about what a good idea that was but then we talked about how it would from the family's table scraps. That's what he fattens it on. And we were talking about what a good idea that was,

but then we talked about how it would change your attitude about waste. Because your kids would be like, do I really have to finish this? And then you'd be like, well, I could give it to that pig, fatten him up. And you'd become more permissive. So it's like a dangerous area to be in man and i yeah it brought up the fact that my mom and stepdad you know big beef family their appetites get keep getting smaller but their weekly giant steak stays the same size and the dogs keep getting fatter. I got you. Yeah. All right, boy.

Thanks for joining. Stay tuned. We'll fill you in on our feral sheep hunt. Hunting livestock in Hawaii. Which is fun. Yeah. Turning livestock into... Yeah, they're pretty wild.

I mean, they'll run from you just like any other animal. But yeah, they're definitely... Yeah, man. Yep. Anybody that's met a feral pig knows that they figure it out. Oh, yeah. All right.

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