The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 364: Physics and Fatality

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

Steven Rinella talks with Bill Vanderheyden, Brandon Palaniuk, Janis Putelis, Chester Floyd, Hayden Sammak, Phil Taylor, and Corinne Schneider.  Topics discussed: Who stole the office fish?; graduating first in your engineering class out of 1,232 students; Brandon Palaniuk wins angler of the year; get tickets to see Chester open for Trampled By Turtles on Dec. 1 in Atlanta; when hunter safety advises that you keep your harvest covered so as not to offend non-hunters; chisel heads; the formulas that go into shooting your bow; mass vs. speed; the draw force curve; Newton’s Law; busting through bone; breaking down 3:1; blood trails; Bill’s Iron Will Outfitters broadheads; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEater Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop MeatEater Merch See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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First Light. Go farther, stay longer. Alright everybody, joined today by Giannis Pitellas. I haven't seen him in so long my heart aches. You haven't seen me so long you introduced me like a guest. What the hell? Where you been? Dude, we went it was very abrupt. I was thinking about

that the other day. We used to hang out every day like brothers. like nuts on a dog. I was just going to say that. And then something changed. They were like, ah, you got to do your own show, Yanni. The next thing you know, it's been months. Nearly a phone call. Don't even know where he's at.

I feel like I do more to keep in touch, though. Because remember I asked if you wanted to come get some fish and stuff like that? Yeah. You didn't steal fish out of the freezer here did you it's a mystery well listen we're bringing in uh we haven't found him yet but we got some hot leads on we're bringing in a polygraph examiner and you're the first guy getting polygraphed chester we're gonna start with there's a literal bounty posted for this fish $20 bounty we're gonna bring in a polygraph and I'm

going to start peeling people in here and we're going to have a guy right on air polygraphing people. I can tell you this much, you start out with some softballs. You're like, where are you from, Chester? Because then it sets like a little baseline, right?

And then you get into the stuff like, so did you put the freezer, the, where's the cooler, Chester? I don't, I don't know where the cooler is it could be that one sitting right that was empty sitting in there we're gonna get to it yanni you hunted you were hung up in alaska i feel bad for the person that uh accidentally took that fish you don't accidentally i got another way i'm gonna trick people into fessing up too because there was some barracuda in there. No, there wasn't.

Well, I had my barracuda. I froze the whole barracuda to experiment with it. You told me to keep the barracuda in my freezer for Spencer. I have it in my freezer. Oh, so we didn't lose the barracuda. No. Glad I didn't pursue that line of investigation. We'll find out. I got my eyes on you, Chester,

because the polygraph examiner is going to probably want to talk to you and we're going to talk to him about how to lead an investigation we're probably going to try to bring in someone who deals with sex crimes but what do you think what do you think i did what would you think like i don't eat fish so why would i take it because if if we're conducting if we brought detectives in, they'd probably first talk to you. I'm just guessing. That's Paul Lewis.

And they'd be like, he's just a space cadet. He has no idea what happened. Oh, before we get into our main, Yanni's not actually our main guest. Oh, you were hunting up in Alaska. We didn't talk about that yet. Nope.

Yeah, with Jordan Budd. We were hunting caribou. It was fun. It was great fun. Did you see any bears? We saw one sow with a couple of cubs. Same thing like we saw last time, like super blonde, like mega fuzzy, you know, even at two miles, you can see the sows, you know, fur blowing in the wind. Mm-hmm.

And the cubs, had they been by themselves, you would have said, oh, there's two small black bears. Huh. Yeah. Remember when we saw that? Yeah oh, there's two small black bears. Huh. Yeah. Remember when we saw that when we were on that sheep hunt? Sure. And yeah, one wolf trotted by a camp at maybe 150 yards. Oh, it did?

Yep. Did you do an Aldo Leopold and fling one out there on them? No, we just had our bows and arrows. That's what I mean. Had we had a rifle rifle maybe we would have but uh it was good until we had two good days of caribou action and then the caribou faucet got turned off they turned left or right or something yeah do you think you were at the end of the herd or they swung different directions that early i learned a lot about caribou movement because we actually got to talk

to the local biologist right before we flew out he stopped by and chit-chatted and uh that early there is no real migration and in general that 40 mile herd doesn't have like i always thought it was a very uh sort of i guess like a linear east to west movement it's not it's just a wild it's a circular movement that sometimes goes counterclockwise sometimes goes clockwise and they happen to go into Canada and back into Alaska, you know, as they do this movement. But the earlier in the season, the more spread out they are, and the more they're just smaller groups

and just going other different directions. And I've always heard how erratic caribou can be, and we've kind of seen erratic movement on the hunts that we've been on together but i mean this was seriously like watching them and we didn't have any bugs i'll preface it with that like super cold night the first night we got there and so really no bugs the entire week so it wasn't bugs but you just be watching a caribou just moving let's say straight east hypothetically stops and feeds for 10, 15 minutes,

picks up his head, turns 90 degrees, and sprints 200 yards south. But he's not getting bugs on him. No. And then stops and feeds a little bit, and maybe he stops for 30 seconds and pulls the same shit again, or he stops for an hour. See, when I used to see that, I always thought it was he just getting clear of his flies. I mean, just like maddening to the point where you're like, well, we're going to put a stock on that one.

Let's go 200 yards toward like behind it. Cause the thing might just turn around and run towards us. Like we, like it was very hard to pick them off or to get ahead of them. Yeah. They were just like. I think that might be a defense mechanism.

I've hunted Alaska the last two years. I saw the same thing. They might stop and feed or just stand still for a couple of minutes and then just pick up and run. Yeah. And the bugs weren't bad. So I thought so too.

Maybe they know like I can't stay still too long. Yeah. That definitely could be it. Yeah. Yeah. That was the voice of Bill Vander Hayden from Iron Will Broadheads who Corinne pointed out here.

He graduated number one out of 1,232 students at the University of Wisconsin in mechanical engineering. He's going to talk about broadhead. He's going to shuck the corn on broadheads. He's going to drop some science on us. He's going to drop some science on us. There's broadhead controversy too. I don't know if people are aware of that. We're going to get into it because He's going to drop some science on us. There's broadhead controversy too. I don't know if people

are aware of that. We're going to get into because we're going to talk about what happens when you shoot sharp stuff at animals and what goes on there and how your success

and your failure can come down to what equipment you use and not just where you put it, but what happens once you put it there. Oh, real quick too. We got someone waiting on the line.

We have the angler of the year waiting on the line. We're not talking about walleye. We're talking about the real angler of the year. Oh, that was just a diss. Yeah. You know, I was trying to think like, like, cause I, cause this whole thing, like, I don't want to be demeaning,

but I was thinking like, like bass fishing. No, I don't like, I would, i would rather have one walleye than 10 lar i grew up in a large mouth lake which i want to fish with brandon who's on the phone but i'd rather have one walleye than 10 bass so i don't mean this as like i'm not this isn't a dig but the bass angle of the year that's like the nba yeah and the wall angle of the year, that's like the NBA. Yep. And the wall angle of the year is like the WNBA. Holy shit. Like, meaning like, it just has a lot less awareness. Like, a lot less awareness.

Is that fair? I don't know about the WNBA. It might even be like... A lot less awareness. Might be like college lacrosse. Yeah, I was listening to... Okay, here's the thing. I was listening to Bill Burr's new special. Let's watch him walk this back. No, no, no.

In real time. I only thought of this because I was watching Bill Burr's new special. And Bill Burr's talking about these endless conversations about the WNBA. What he likes to do is he likes to go to his friends who are women and say, Oh, name me your favorite five WNBA. What he likes to do is he likes to go to his friends who are women and say, oh, name me your favorite five WNBA players. And he finds that no one can name

the people that are like, oh, can't name one. So that was his point. I think everybody can name one. The one now that's in the Russian news gal. For having a little bit of weed. Anyhow. Oh, Chester.

Chester's in way over his waiters. What do you mean? Chester is going. Chester is opening. Do-do-do-do. Announcement. You people. Are tickets on sale yet? They are on sale. Chester is opening announcement you people are tickets on sale yet

they are on sale dude if I want some tickets can you get them for me it used to be if I wanted to see Chester I used to just call him up now I gotta go to Ticketmaster now I gotta go to Ticketmaster if you wanna see Chester

pay an $8 service charge I gotta go to Ticketmaster if you want to see Chester. Pay an $8 service charge. Yep. Yep. I've got to go to Ticketmaster to see Chester because Chester is opening for Trampled by Turtles in Atlanta, Georgia. Chester is traveling to Atlanta and opening. Yep. If you want to see him, take it up with Ticketmaster. Yep.

It's going to be great. Or I can tell you where he lives. Yeah, well, don't do that. I'm even, I'm trying to write some catchy originals, too. Dude, Chester. I was going to ask you. Chester went from being, he didn't pick up a guitar, how many years ago? Like a little over two years now. Dude is skipping in line.

I know. Skipping in line. Dave thought he had talent. Oh, he does. Tell us a little bit about what your plan is for this show. I'm going to play for 25 to 35. But you said you're going to write originals, so you're mostly going to sing

covers? I'm going to write originals, so you're mostly going to sing covers? I'm going to sing some covers, yeah. Mostly covers, and then if I feel that my originals are up to par and not too cheesy, I'll play a couple of them. What I've found is that Chester right now has about 45 career advisors. Everyone's like, here's what I'd do, Chester.

I divest from crypto. No, no. Me, who's never been able to play an instrument or sing, I'm like, here's what the lineup should be, Chester. So what's his new moniker going to be now?

We got to figure that out. I think he should just play, I think his stage name and everything, like, you know, it should be like Madonna, but it should just be chester i thought about i thought it should be chester the molester but that sets like then you're gonna get weird people in the crowd they're like where's the part about molesting i want my money back and i think it should just

be that he plays as chester that's what i told them to put on the poster love it i really like your originals, man. How long are you going to play? It'll probably be like 8, 9, 10 songs, which will be like 25 minutes to 35 minutes. Because Chester's speeding through this career so fast. It's like six months from now he's going to OD. He's going to OD in a hotel in six months.

I'll put the link to tickets up on my Instagram so you can go buy some in Atlanta, Georgia. What's the date? December 1st. How many people are you playing in front of? I think it's like 1,500. I wonder if I can make it down there. December 1st. Dude, I are you playing in front of? I think it's like 1,500. I wonder if I can make it down there. December 1st.

We got to do a thing. We got to do a thing. I'm going to heckle your ass. We'll go to like gun show as a pre-celebratory thing at Kevin's restaurant. I'm going to go to the worst grocery store and be like, I need a bunch of rotten tomatoes and shit. Do you feel like opening up for the meat eater podcast in Billings, is that all you needed to kind of break through? Yes, that was way harder, I think,

than this will be because people will be in the crowd actually talking and like there to listen to music. The Billings show was like, here Chester, go on stage, everyone will be quiet. They'll be slightly confused. And there'll be a light on you. Just shining right on you. And then you gotta sing a song. Yeah. And there'll be a light on you, just shining right on you.

And then you've got to sing a song. Yeah. And they're like, what happened? Am I at the wrong event? Yeah. The audience. They're like, did he forget a verse? Anyways, back to bass fishing.

I'm teasing, but I'm super proud of you, man. Well, thank you. Thank you. I don't mean you're in over your waiters. I just mean you're like on a fast track dude I'm not in over my waiters Cause I just need to play like I'm sitting on my couch Maybe with a little more enthusiasm

But you know Just play music That was some of the best advice I ever got as a writer Try to imagine yourself telling Try to imagine the best version of yourself Telling your friend in a bar something The best explanation you of yourself telling your friend in a bar something the best explanation you ever gave to your friend in a bar about something yeah that's good try to like write like that yeah i can do it how did uh tbt find you

um he re he follows me on instagram and corinne um they're in contact just because he's been on the podcast before. And she gave him my number and he texted me and Danielle was sitting right there. And I was like, this is a weird text. Because I just two-wayed it to both of them. I read it out loud. And as I was reading it, Danielle was like in the background, like jumping up and down. And she's like, you have to do it. Even though it's like eight days after we have our firstborn son.

Your wife's into it? Yeah. She's like. She's excited? Yeah. She's like, you, you don't, people don't really get opportunities like that in the spot that you're at. So you got to do it. Danielle, don't really get opportunities like that in the spot that you're at. So you got to do it.

Danielle, don't give birth late. You're going to be completely sleep deprived and hallucinating on stage. You're going to be the best, man. Groupies. He'll be beating them off at his fish pole. But I want to talk about bass fishing with Brandonon oh that's we're getting into next all right uh we have on the phone now chester told me last night that um brandon uh tell everybody where you're at and what's going on that brandon polluted i always mess up pollinick pollinick

brandon pollinick who you should know because he's been on the show before. Last night was christened, crowned Angler of the Year. Am I wrong? You're right. It's a true story. Right here in La Crosse, Wisconsin. You explained it perfectly.

I remember last time I was in the studio, we were kind of having to explain the whole tournament bass fishing thing to you. And then you just, you put Chester straight and nailed it with the NBA to WNBA comparison. I mean, you were, you were dead nuts on with that one. So, so tell me like, what, what is this the culmination of it? What does it mean for your career? Well, this is my second AOI win. So it puts me in a very small group of guys that have won multiple.

I was the 12th guy to win multiple AOIs and I think the 27th guy to ever win one in the 50-plus years of Bass. So when they do this, they're looking at the culmination of a collection of tournaments, right? Exactly. It doesn't mean that you won one particular tournament. It just means that over the entire tour, or however you guys put it, that you were above and beyond had the best angler performance out of all the anglers engaged in all the different tournaments. Yeah, exactly. So it's a points race. Got it.

So we have 100 anglers that qualify for the Bassmaster Elite Series. All those same hundred guys fish throughout the entire year. First place gets a hundred points. Second gets 99. Third gets 98 and so forth and, you know, down the board. And so there's a cumulative points race that carries on through the nine events of the year. And we just finished, well, today, the top 10 is actually still fishing today. I just didn't make the top 10, but I had,

I placed high enough yesterday that nobody could pass me in points today. How many points you got? Honestly, I don't even know. I haven't looked at points in eight years until the end of the year, but I haven't even looked at the points this year to know how many points I have. Is there a cash prize? 100 grand. Sweet. Brandon, you – that's awesome, man.

I had been following you all year, and you're doing really well. And you went to Lake Oahe and struggled a little bit there. I bombed. You're putting it way too nice, Chester. You need to go more Chester Molester on this one. Oh, that's good. Yeah, I about screwed up my whole entire season at Oahe. So walk us through real quick what was happening going into Oahe, then Oahe, and then what was in your mind going into lacrosse?

So looking back now and after everyone telling me how the points points played out and stuff, because I hadn't looked all season, I didn't know what the points gap was. I knew that there were a couple guys behind me that were in the running, but I was leading going into a Wahi. And knowing what I know now, I was running away with it at that time. Like if I would have just cut a check, I, it would have been nearly impossible for someone to beat me this week, whether I caught a bass or not. And I completely bombed and finished like 66 at a Y.

And before that, my worst finish of the season had been 26. And so it went from being almost nearly impossible to getting getting beat for aoy to making it so that multiple guys had a shot to win it and uh you know a lot of that just came from poor decision making at oahe right like writing off sections of the lake and preconceived notions and things like that you catch any on a wahi oh yeah i'm crushed the walleye he's like trash fish one walleye one walleye is worth way more than 10 large mouth if you're talking about eating them sure and way better um and that i mean incredible walleye fishery and it's actually a really good

smallmouth fishery we just hit it at a really weird time and i made poor decisions and then i came into lacrosse this week still not knowing the points but knowing that it was a lot closer by the way everyone was acting it was a lot closer than what it needed to be and uh was able to to pull it out and actually had an incredible day yesterday um caught the biggest bag that i caught all week and was able to seal the deal move up and how many pounds how many pounds was yesterday's bag that's five how many fish is it five fish five yeah five so i had 15 pounds for five yesterday which on this river right now is pretty dang solid like if i would have caught 15 every day i would have nearly been leading the event dude i'm gonna go bass fishing with you so bad man let's go seaweed

tasting bastards i'm ready um uh imagine they tax that 100 grand pretty aggressively i'm guessing yeah they're gonna use it they're gonna use to pay off some chump who never paid his student loans and here yeah here's the best part wisconsin is a state that they have to pull the taxes out of your check before you even get it. They don't even trust you. So I didn't even get the $100,000. So now I'm only getting $94,000 because Wisconsin is going to take $6,000, and then I got to go do all the paperwork to try to get some of it back because I don't live here. Sometimes you wish you you just go fishing i

have to deal with all that money yeah i know trust me i know i that's why i go walleye fishing so you're so you're not even fishing now but you're still hanging around is that is that like a polite thing to do is hang around uh i actually started doing that like two years ago, um, sticking around watching each guy win the event. Got it. Um, because it, to me, it's like a respect thing to the other anglers somewhat.

Uh, but it's also a driving force to me, like personally to see a guy win, knowing that like I had equal opportunity to go do that and couldn't pull it off like I didn't make the right decisions that week and so it's it just motivates me even more for the next week and the week after that yeah I got it and are you done for the summer now oh yeah it's we're switching I'll still fish some in the fall and everything to keep my skills in check but it's full-on hunting season now and then when And then when do you got to start back up

hardcore fishing again? We'll start tournaments again next February. We'll start show season and all that stuff, traveling in January, but February, we don't have our schedule yet for next year, but usually it starts around February. Can you take a listener question for us? For sure. guy wrote in um

wondering about what happens when you spook a fish he's talking about how long like if you like spook a deer how long it goes before it kind of goes back to normal right like how far it runs you know it's highly variable right but he's saying like let's say you hook a fish and like really fight it and he comes off not just not just he stung his lip but like you had him on you know yeah um when does that fish when does that fish like back to normal ready to hit again it's all situational um and it's different uh depending, depending on species. So like a small mouth bass versus a large mouth will be way more aggressive. Like, so your odds of hooking and losing a small mouth and catching it again quickly is much higher than doing it with a large mouth. Uh, just cause they got a bad attitude.

So you've, you've probably hooked small mouth, broke off and like potentially caught the smallmouth with your lure still in the mouth. Oh, 100%. Especially if they're spawning, right? If they're spawning, whether you can see them or can't see them, you cast, break one off, you cast back in there, he swims over, eats it, and you get both your hooks back. Really? And that's like breaking him off. Yeah, that's like you catch him he still has the lure stuck in his mouth you cast back out there he swims over eats the next one yeah and gets it

like i caught i caught a smallmouth one time on lake oneida and when i caught him brought him in the boat he regurgitated a bait that he had just stole off mine the cast before right like he just sucked the worm off the hook and that was a plastic worm not even real one he spit up another plastic worm like a little four inch black sinko a shad and a crawdad all at the same time and was still swimming around eating my baits. And, uh, but there's been times where like, you don't hook them and I'll follow them sometimes for a quarter mile. If they get on a sand flat or something, you'll just follow them and you'll keep casting at them, keep casting at them. They'll spook from the boat a little, or they'll spook from your cast and then you'll hit it just right or they get

annoyed enough and they'll swim over and bite it got it i know it's a hard our hard question to answer because it's like so like with everything it's so highly variable right yeah for sure well congratulations man thank you i appreciate it yeah you gotta come back on the show yeah i would love to we're gonna make it's not too far of a drive. We'll make Corinne chase you down and get you back up here. It'd be fun. They still got to fish your Ma's pond. We still got to fish my Ma's lake.

My Ma's, yeah. We'll break down Ma's lake. We talked about that a little bit. No, we'll do it. That lake's not going anywhere. This last summer turned out to not be a good summer for a handful of reasons, but we'll get back on track for that all right congratulations thanks for jumping on yeah appreciate you guys i'll talk to you soon all right take good luck out cunning

all right thanks oh a guy wrote in uh interesting point we're talking about lead and copper we're talking about when you go to the kind of this ongoing debate about you know lead ammo copper ammo all these different pros and cons of each um uh we're talking about how like like i we did a tour of the federal plant federal ammunition plant and all the lead federal uses is recycled car batteries it's all recycled lead okay and someone wrote in and he's like the problem with you people like you is you say like oh copper copper copper but then every time they go to put in a copper mine you bitch about it for instance i've been a long you know uh i've been i've spent well i went to my first anti-pebble mine event before my 12 year old was born so i've been, I've spent, well, I went to my first anti-pebble mine event before my 12-year-old was born.

So I've been following and voicing all the reasons they shouldn't do a gold and copper mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay for 13 years, 14 years. But he's like, so how can you reconcile that with saying you like to shoot copper ammo or that people should shoot copper ammo? I felt that he a little bit oversimplified what i've said on the subject however um fellow wrote in to say that most that copper and your copper ammo is recycled anyways thousands of tons of copper this is him talking thousands of tons of copper are recycled off job sites every year. What most people don't know is it can only be refined once to use as a conductor. I did not know this. Copper can be used once as a conductor.

Once it's melted down again, its conductive properties are diminished and it cannot be used again as wire. So most likely the copper that you're using, which doesn't need to be conductive, copper and copper ammunitions, it would make the most sense that they're buying it up cheaper as a recycled material than going out and digging it out of a hole in the ground. What do you think about that, Bill? That probably tickles your fancy as an engineer. You buying it? I did not know that about conduction of copper after it's reused, recycled, but it sounds good. You're more of a broadhead man. You're not a bullet man.

Yeah. I'm into steel more than copper. Yeah, for sure. That was interesting. Oh, here's one. This is a weird one. This dude from michigan writes in his girlfriend's and uh taking her hunter safety and they're actually advising you

they're advising you in hunter safety quote when transporting game be sure to keep it covered to avoid offending others that's not like a hunter safety. That's a sticky one. Isn't that illegal some places? To hide it? Well, don't you have to have it exposed? I don't know, but I'm going to say no. I think when I was a kid in Wisconsin that you had to have your deer where you could see it. What?

I think so. People had them tied onto their cars and visible in their pickup trucks. They wanted to know that you had it. You couldn't hide. I think once you got it registered, you had to drive to town and register it. Yeah. And I think that was the rule that you had to have it like displayed or visible until it was registered. That's, you know, I was, I don't know if I knew the laws exactly back then, but that's, that's

what you saw. And maybe people were just showing off their bucks. I don't know. Well, like it was like a big thing in the old days, like whenever he was driving around in like old cars, they have like strung up on there. But where it gets is like, uh, you know, is it,

um, how, to what degree, like if you get a deer, let's just purely personal decision-making here. Let's say there's no legal. Okay. There's no legal structure behind it. If you get a deer, should you have the attitude that you've done something bad and should hide it? Lest someone be offended. Or is it that you've done something that you're happy about and glad about and don't mind displaying it? I see both sides of it.

I've argued both sides of it. Yeah, in Wisconsin, it's like a huge thing. If you shoot a nice deer, it's rare you find that dude hiding that buck. tailgates down and he stops at like all the deer registration stations and few bars and he's like look at my buck you know yeah i don't uh like i have a top around my truck and i would never like do but not for the not for fear of offending people just more of like you know i don't know just this is where i would put it i guess right so it's not like a decision for me well this fall you're gonna shoot such a big bull he's not gonna fit in that uh bed of yours you're gonna have to attach him to the uh canoe racks good i got a lofted topper

though it ain't gonna fit ain't gonna fit't going to fit. Here's another one. This guy's wondering, the topic is, am I the ass? This is a sticky one. So another guy from Michigan. A lot of people from Michigan writing in. A lot of problems in Michigan. He's from Michigan. And he's been doing some scouting just right now.

He's been cruising the roads surrounding the properties where he has permission to hunt. So he's got permission to hunt certain properties in his area. He's cruising around in the evening, glassing out in crop fields. One such property is about 300 acres of mixed ag and small woodlots. The way the crops lay out this year, the neighbor's property has some soybeans that the bachelor groups of bucks have been hitting hard. Two nights this week, I parked my truck on private property I have permission on

and have been glassing the deer in a neighbor's soybeans. Each night, I'm still quoting here, each night the neighbor confronted me and asked me about what I was doing. The first night was more cordial and he just inquired about who I was and what I was up to. The second evening he was straight up confrontational and threatened me with calling the dnr and complaining about hunter harassment he's kind of turning though yeah hunter harassment on the hunter on the bow hunter he's like he's confused he needs to look up harassment he's so no i think that his uh angle is that this dude is somehow trying to disrupt his upcoming hunt. Okay.

You're right. You're right. I'll continue on. He says my long distant glassing is going to pressure the deer and ruin his hunting this fall. He also went into an, here's some value judgment because he says he went into an egotistical rant about how he and his buddies only shoot 130 inch bucks and how the guys who hunt my property should be doing the same. So again, he points out, I'm set up on a private property where a farm lane intersects a dirt road. I'm sitting on the tailgate of my truck and I'm

glassing across a roadway into a bean field where the deer are 500 to 1,000 yards away. No houses, no other dwellings or structures are visible from my spot due to topography and vegetation. Therefore, it shouldn't be misconstrued that I'm stalking or looking at people's houses.

The dirt road is relatively busy. Many people drive it with cars, side-by-sides, and dirt bikes, so he's not adding to the activity. Hmm. Okay, if you are absolutely 100 dead nuts positive sure that you're not sort of like, kind of like glancing over at the guy's house with binoculars, I just can't see what the issue is. I don't think there is one man i think this is just like classic sort of white tail hunter paranoia what it what it really seems to me this is hayden sammick ladies and gentlemen it really seems to me that this guy's main problem is that he doesn't

have like a hedgerow or something right off the road a lot of times like white tail hunters with these highly managed properties they'll like i forget what the grass is called but it grows blinders up yeah like mark uh i think mark kenyon did it with the back 40 is he planted that uh he tried or he tried to plant like a screen that kind of intersected or blocked the view from the road specifically for this purpose i would also say that if this guy came out here had the conversation with this dude and those deer were still standing in the middle of the field it's probably not an issue you know it just it seems like this dude is just weirdly protective about his deer but like I feel like northeast deer hunting it's a king's deer issue is what it is yeah sounds like the the guy who was upset also could have handled that confrontation a little better if he was actually that worried rather than just straight up calling the dnr and

it's just kind of ridiculous in my opinion like it's just i don't know you can imagine if a cop did come and they both guys laid out argument, the cop would probably feel like the guy that owns the field is insane. Yeah. Right. He's like, hold on a minute. What are you upset about? You're mad that he's on his property looking over into your property. Looking at deer.

This is going to be very hard to enforce. Looking at deer. For all the motor motors coming down this road they don't look they don't look over that away yeah and our listener brian is being so thoughtful to even you know self-reflect and write in and ask what what uh some of you might think so sounds to me brian that uh you're not an ass but here's the thing to keep in mind here's the thing to keep in mind too this is my like you can't take marriage for instance there are things that your anniversary today oh for you congratulations chester anniversary buddy take marriage for

instance it might be that there's something that drives your spouse nuts. And you're like, I just don't see like, why do you care? Right. But then just, you just stop doing it because right. You stop doing it. Like you don't see what the issue is, but you just stop doing it because it annoys them. So it could be that in the spirit of just trying to keep things cordial and

not keep things heated to, he just dips into the woods and then sits against the tree and looks over into the soybean field or whatever right like like maybe the guy's irrational but do you want to have is that the relationship you want to have with everybody like he's irrational perhaps you're not going to fix it but do you want to like poke the bear all the time yeah and brian's is obviously you know these bucks come once they start getting frisky and rutting around a thousand yards away he's just getting a feel for what kind of deer are in the area you know they could easily be on his property come rut time. So Kendra, you know, we were talking about,

I was talking about a friend of mine on a recent episode. I shouldn't say a friend of mine, an acquaintance of mine that got hit by a rattlesnake and they took him to his local hospital and they didn't have the anti-venom. So he had to get in a helicopter and go to a hospital that had the anti-venom and they charged him 9,000 bucks for the helicopter ride. Well, listen to this.

Steve Kendra, who's been on the show, he's on a bird hunting, some bird hunting forum. And the guy, a guy on a bird hunting forum had this to say, my mother, 85 was bitten by a copperhead in June. She received the hospital bill in today's mail. And the antivenom cost $119,997. Oh my gosh she was bitten in the hand and she told me i sucked the venom out and spit it out then drove herself to the hospital and to back himself up the receipt is in here like kendra sent me the receipt it's like yada yada yada. Room and board at the hospital, $1,250.

The lab cost $613. Some kind of diagnostic something or another, $356. Her emergency room visit, $3,180. The pharmacy bill for the antivenom, $119,997. Did insurance cover it? He says she's got good insurance i'll i'll point out that uh the stafford hospital has a 2.7 uh star rating on google reviews yeah but i don't think you can go by that accurate people like like i guess no and then you leave a hospital like loving the place well place. Well, the other Stafford Hospital I can find is actually in England. And the Wikipedia page is called the Stafford Hospital Scandal.

Yeah, I wonder if that's this. Not high marks all around. But this just happened yesterday. But no, this is here in good old America. I don't think they got copperheads in England. So my dog's been bit by a rattlesnake three times now. Same dog. And it costs like $2nake three times now, same dog. And it costs like $2,700 to get the antivenom at the vet.

So she should have went to the vet. Well, but that's, this copperhead venom might be totally different. That's an unlucky dog. You'd think it'd be snake tame by now. Yeah, she was bit when she was four months old. I didn't think she was going to make it that time, but she did. She went on to be a great hunting dog, and then twice last summer. But the second time, she didn't react to it,

so they thought maybe she's kind of immune to it at this point. Where is this happening? Not in eastern Colorado. Nebraska-Colorado border area. Really? Yeah. Another guy wrote in. Remember how we covered

that guy that fell in the vault on the outhouse and spent all those hours? His phone, he was, I don't know what he's doing. Presumably he was defecating.

And his phone fell into an outhouse vault at a fishing access site in Montana. And you were insisting he would be a tremendous guest on the podcast. And I wanted to get him

on the show to interview him. And I said, like, I just asked him, what are you thinking when you suck down in that outhouse vault? And a guy wrote me and said, I can tell you what he wasn't thinking. Where's the guy supposed to take a piss around here? There we go. Ba-dum-bum. Ba-dum-bum. Ba-dum-bum.

Hey, folks. Exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness, do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law that makes it that they can't join, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada.

The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land hunting zones aerial imagery 24k topo maps waypoints and tracking that's right you were always talking about uh we're always talking about on x here on the meat eater podcast now you um you guys in the great white north can can be part of it be part of the excitement you can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service that's a sweet function as part of it. Be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

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if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. All right, Bill. Born and raised in Wisconsin. Where at? Central, it says. Montello, Wisconsin, kind of central part of the state, about an hour north of Madison.

Grew up bow hunting? I did. Yep. My father, grandfather were bow hunters. So I grew up bow hunting and rifle hunting. You can do both there. You don't have to just choose one or the other like you do in Minnesota or some other states.

How old are you? 53. So set the scene for me. What was going on like when you were 12 or whatever, where was archery equipment? I started with a recurve. Um, you know. You were hearing whispers of the compound bow

though. I saw compounds. I, uh, it took me two years to save up the money to buy one and start, start killing deer. That's why I started with a recurve. Um, that's what my, my dad, grandfather had used. Fiberglass shafts? This was a, it's a Ben Pearson.

It was, it was wood. Oh, the shafts. Those are all my first bows were Ben Pearson bows. Hold on, fiberglass shafts or you mean to my first bows were Ben Pearson bows. Hold on. Fiberglass shafts? Or you mean to say limbs? No, on his arrows. Aluminum or? Aluminum.

No, it was like, no, it was like a big thing to have fiberglass arrows, wasn't it? I had some kind of composite arrows, but mainly I shot aluminum arrows. Wasn't there for a time people, I know like carp arrows and shit, but wasn't like in the early days people were messing with fiberglass? Yeah. Because I remember people getting those fiberglass, they'd go to pull them and get the fiberglass shit in their hands all the time it looks like you can still buy them from three rivers yeah so anyways aluminum anyway aluminum yeah and what were you guys broadheads back then

uh thunderheads razorback fives i remember all that stuff, man. And then Muzzy's probably soon after that. Um, a lot of, a lot of three blade chisel point type heads. Um, But not like, so you're not like, uh, like those old Delta, like the steel ones and stuff with, I think I, I had some of those from my, from my dad, grandfather, some of the, the bear razor heads and things. Um, and that's probably is what I started with. But when I started, yeah, I think I was 12 when I started, I think I was 14 when I bought my first compound and then started shooting probably thunderheads at that point.

Yeah. Something like that. Were you, when you were doing that as a kid, were you, um, were you like, um, mechanically minded at the time or did you just use what people told you to use? Or were you, were you early on thinking like, man, this would be a lot better if it was blank. Actually, I was just using what people told me to use for quite a few years. Even, even as I became a mechanical engineer, I wasn't really applying it to broadheads

and archery that much. I mean, I understood the fundamentals, but I wasn't really serious about applying it to bow hunting, you know, until actually, until I had a broadhead fail on an elk shoulder blade many years later that I really decided, uh, Hey, I need to apply the, my background in science, mechanical engineering to develop a product

that's going to perform better here. What was, what were you interested in on mechanical engineering? Like, why'd you become an engineer? Yeah, I was, you know, physics, um, mathematics were just kind of came natural to me. And I was, I was interested in mechanical designing, um, mechanical design and applying, applying science to solve problems, make better products. Um, I mean, I, I enjoyed archery and with the compound, cause there was a lot of, you know, mechanical engineering going on there.

I just wasn't, I don't feel like I was applying it to aero, aero flight, broadheads and things like that to the degree I, I am now, certainly. How long you been at it now? Um, about 16 am now, certainly. How long have you been at it now? About 16 years now, really engineering broadheads. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to turn it over to Giannis for a minute.

All right. Giannis, explain to me. Explain to me what is, like, based on your understanding as a guy that likes to read about stuff like this what is the arrow what is the arrow the current like arrow broadhead controversy i don't know if there's a simple answer no no no because there's so many schools of little nuances hit me with some schools of thought. In the last couple years, it's been trending more FOC, forward of center, like weight.

Yeah, there's that. There's the idea that heavier arrows are sort of gaining a little bit of momentum. I say that, but I also wonder if it's not just because of our little circle. I wonder if you go to actual, I don't go to ATA, but I wonder if you went to A just because of our little circle like I wonder if you go to actual I don't go to ATA but if I wonder if you went to ATA do you go to ATA I do yeah is it like a talk is it a thing there like is is also is there like a general surge in this definitely

this mass versus speed controversy and okay and it it continues I think it's as bad right now as it's ever been, really. Mass versus speed. But it wasn't around in like the, probably like in 05, when the first super fast carbon, you know, shafts came along and everybody was shooting like 85 grain heads and everybody showed up in camp. Where I come from, my perspective is that I started guiding elk hunts in the year 2000. And for whatever reason, it was like the very tail end of still had aluminum shafts and like muzzies, like what everybody rolled into camp with.

And everybody just passed shot right through elk. And we had like very good success with shots taken to animals found. And then five years later, guys would show up with rigs where they'd shoot the target at 40 yards and you didn't even see the arrow. It would just be stuck in the target all of a sudden. No, seriously. It was so fast.

It was like one of those tricks where the guy's throwing the knives and the knife just comes out of the board. And then we started seeing you know very poor penetration um it took us a long time and probably well after i probably left you know guiding elkins to realize you know that that was the root cause of it the the whole system had gotten too light because they liked like people liked it because it was fun as shit to shoot it. Yeah. And I think it was like flat.

It was fun to shoot at targets, flat shooting, fast ass arrows. And, and I think at the time, yeah, the, the,

it was, it sold probably was the number one thing was that there was like new, they came up with this, the capability to make arrows go really fast. And it was like the hot new thing, but I don't, it hadn't been like tested and it probably worked fine on,

you know, whitetails and stuff, but it just hadn't been proven yet. And it took five or 10 years. So my, I guess my question is, do you feel like back then, was there a controversy or people talking?

Like, was there always like a whole back crowd that was like, no, no, no, no. You guys are,

I'm telling you that light, fast stuff is not going to work. You guys should be sticking with heavier arrows. I don't, I don't think there was so much, you know, I, I moved to Colorado in 99 from Wisconsin, started elk hunting. Um, 2004 is when, uh. Okay. So we started elk hunting about the same time. Yeah. It was 2004.

I got a shot on a, on a nice bull. What the hell were you doing for the five years before you got a shot? Trying to figure out elk hunting. Dude. That's what I was doing. Yeah, come on. You don't have a similar story? I know you do.

I started winging arrows at cows right off the bat. I was losing more than one or two as well. Yeah, we can get into that. I was a successful whitetail hunter, and everything I knew about whitetails was, was steering me in the wrong direction for elk. And I didn't have a lot of mentorship. I just went out and tried to figure it out. But, um, so I got this shot on a, on an elk, I hit a little forward, hit the shoulder blade, really, really pretty thin part of the scapula with a three blade, um, you know, cheap chisel point head and did not get penetration there. And, and I was, I had a light, fast setup at

the time, you know, probably a little over 400 grains, um, with a bow I had, it wasn't, there was not a lot of, uh, energy there. And that's really what set me off on, okay. And I spent five days looking for that elk in the mountains and, um, didn't find it, but I got a lot of time to think. He'd have been pretty, he'd been puffed up pretty good by the time you found him if you had found

him. Yeah. I think it probably pulled out and, uh, live, but yeah, it really bothered me that I'd become a very, you know, high level engineer developing products, using all the latest and greatest tools, um, to do world-class, you know, engineering, solve mechanical problems, product development. Really, he was kind of the go-to guy at the companies I worked for to solve the hardest problems. And I wasn't applying it to something that was super important to me, which was bow hunting

success. And right there, I kind of was committed. I'm going to research this, see what's been done, apply engineering. I know something can get through the shoulder blade and get through that elk. I just need, there needs to be some engineering here. Um, but no, at the time everything was moving light and fast. I was too. And I didn't really hear about anybody saying anything different. Um, it was really after I had that failure, I started digging into the research. I found the Ashby reports back then and read them, you know, went, went heavy the next year, 600 plus green arrow and a big long broadhead. Um, but then I realized that, Hey, this doesn't fly very good. The trajectory, this thing nose dives at about 40

yards. And at the same time, I realized that hunting out West for elk and mule deer, man, I was passing up a lot of elk and mule deer at 50, 55 yards. Cause it was outside of my range at that time. So I also felt like, man, if I could extend my range, I could be a much more effective hunter and make more, you know, make something out of more opportunities here. So, um, anyway, that, that made me just dig into the science behind it and, and look at mass versus speed and broadhead design and all that. Real quick, uh, explain to people what a chisel head is. That's why I make sure people who aren't totally checked out on the terminology know what you're saying. Yeah. So the, the point

of a, of an arrowhead, you can have a cone point, uh, which kind of visual what that is, or a chisel point would be if you had like three flats making the point. Okay. I'd call that a chisel point. There's versions of that that might be dished out and those are called trocar points, but it's basically, um, the, the front of the ferrule, um, makes a point.

It's not really a blade. It's not really, not going to shave with it, but it comes to a point. And then those typically have some replacement blades that are inserted behind it. Yeah. Like the old muzzy Thunderhead. There's a lot of them that were like that.

So those three flat surfaces that come to a point, or like you said, you'll see on some brands where it's dished out a little bit to kind of give it more of a sharp edge as a chisel point. Right. Those cut better than a cone point, for instance.

They'll take less force to, to push through, hide muscle. But they're not considered a cut on contact. They're really not. And really that's the biggest revelation I had in 10 years of broadhead development is how important sharpness, edge retention are. Um, and being able to cut, you know, you could take, you can take a lot of broadheads, put them on an arrow and let's say you got a downed animal and you're just going to try to push in to say the hide and muscle and you can't, you can't do it. Um, those chisel points, a lot of times not very sharp and takes a lot of force to push them through the hide. Um, even some three blade kind of one piece broadheads, um, often those aren't that sharp.

And I didn't realize that either. A lot of broadheads aren't really that sharp out of the box i think a lot of people don't realize that right a lot of people no i didn't i thought well it's a broadhead that's got blades on it of course it's going to be sharp but sure it comes with a warning that says watch out you're going to cut cut the hell out of your fingers but um yeah you could it can be sharper. I've found out. Yeah. That's one of the things, um, I was doing is measuring the force to push the different broadheads down through hide muscle or hide

muscle scapula using an Instron machine, which is, uh, you know, I can control the velocity and very accurately as a load cell, I can accurately measure the force to penetrate. And there's a one-to-one there. If it's, if you cut the force in half to penetrate, you're going to go twice as far through. Hold on, back that up again.

Say that again. Yeah. I think we should back all the way back up to the machine that he's using. You want to? Well, I was going to tell him about our meat tender test machine, but I'll save him. It's probably not too different.

No, that's not the first thing I thought. Yeah. So back it up to the machine again. Yeah. So this machine, it has basically servo motors driving down ahead, and there's a load cell in it, so it's accurately measuring force. Okay. And then I can mount different broadheads in there. Yeah.

And I'll have a tray underneath it with, I've done it with, um, you know, a hind quarter with hide on it, for instance, to look at the force to push down through hide and muscle. Can you just stick a roadkill deer on there and. You can. Okay. Yeah. Basically.

Yeah. I was, um, I've used Audad before, which is, uh, it's, it's kind of similar in size, maybe a little thicker bone. Um, I've used moose, moose hide and moose parts as well. You probably got to be careful because at some point, if you just mess up this meat too much, you're going to get a call from the Game of Fish, right,

for wanting waste. You're like, what's the recipe after you punch these arrows through a thousand times? He puts his kebabs key there. Yeah, keep it cold and then make it into burger when you're done. Oh, yeah, I guess burger is the answer. But, yeah, we can. But so just so I'm clear, it's not like somehow,

and maybe I'm just not understanding force clear enough, but when it's pushing through, you can equate that to how fast that arrow could have been going when it hit. It's not just like a pressure pushing at the time. It's that can be equated to how fast that arrow is moving when it hit. I'm measuring the force it takes to go through. And is this a good time to get into the, yeah, it's probably a good time to get into that. I can see though.

I can see that whatever you're talking about with whenever you're going to go down the road later and factor in speed and all that shit, that a reasonable thing to look at would be what does it actually take to shove it through there? Yeah. Like that seems like a great first question to ask. Well, I think it's what everybody was missing. And I think they're still missing it today a lot. There's this mass versus speed but that's only that's part of the equation the other one or if we if we think about it in energy and um yeah let me draw this but force is key here force um if you can reduce

the force you increase the distance it's kind of one to one um i think everybody was missing that nobody was really looking at when you're saying you say that, you're talking about reducing the force to penetrate. You're increasing the distance that you will get after the penetration. During the penetration. During the penetration. Right. The initial penetration, I guess. Let's say I had the sharpest needle on the planet.

Okay? And I flick it at you. Perfect. Like a sharp dart. And then I have. Mm-hmm. Okay. And I flick it at you. Mm-hmm. Perfect. Like a sharp dart. Mm-hmm. And then I have a real dull dart. Yeah.

And I flick it at you the same. What would you rather me hit you with? Yeah, obviously. Because it's going to go in real easy. Yeah. Or think about cutting a roast. If you've got a really sharp knife, minimal force to cut down through that, right?

But if you take a butter knife, it's going to take a tremendous amount of force. But I don't think a lot of people think about that. You know, for whatever energy you have, it's going to create some force over distance. And reducing that force to penetrate will give you the max distance with whatever your setup is, light or heavy air or whatever your bow is and i think i think that's missed a lot and it's a huge factor when you're getting to everything around uh broadheads arrow setups bow setups you're looking at a number of things you brought up a bunch of times like there's physics right and and we've addressed it where we had on that we had on a guest i don't know some some months ago in an episode called the archer's it where we had on that we had on a guest i don't know some some months ago in an episode called the archer's paradox where we had a ophthalmologist who spent many many years

how many years at ashby 27 27 years studying arrow broadhead like bow arrow broadhead performance okay and he he has these sort of like rules and they seem to be right. Like, uh, I would look at it and be like, Oh, this is a very scientific approach. Like it's not anecdotal. It's not,

well, here's what my buddy said. He's like trying to apply numbers to it. Okay. Um, how is there, how is there room for multiple interpretations if that's the case? Yeah,

there's a, there's a lot there. So Dr. Ed Ashby, I know I've talked to him several times. There's a few things there. And really the reason I'm here is to explain some of his points that don't quite agree with physics and laws of science. This is how you and I became acquaintances. It is. You've sent me a follow-up note about some things that one ought to consider.

Right. From an engineering standpoint. Yeah. And I said you should come onto the show and explain this. Yeah. And I've talked to Dr. Ashby and really we agree a lot. We agree on a lot of things, but there's a few things that he says that, you know, when, and really his, his studies

were the first thing I found in 2004 after I had that broadhead fail on an elk shoulder blade. And I was really trying to dig into the research. So, um, you know, I've got a lot of respect for the guy and the time he put in, but a lot of his, his studies were, um, with a longbow on Cape Buffalo or Asian Buffalo. And, and he's a, he's an eye doctor, but he's not a engineer or a scientist and the way his, and really there's, there's a way you design experiments, you know, it's design of experiments and structuring them in such a way that you make sure the results you get out of them

are, are valid. Um, and so as you said, uh, I felt it would probably scientific research too, but as I dig more and more into it, there was a lot of, you know, I tried this and then I tried this other thing and there's, and the way it's structured, there's not, um, it's difficult, you know, when a number of things change at once, it's difficult to quantify and put numbers to things. So I think there's some issues like that. And there's some, also some issues with some things that just go against, you know, the laws of physics. That's, that's tough. It is, you know, as a, as an engineer, basically mechanical engineering is, you know, I've learned the science, the physics, the material science, and then I apply the laws of physics to, you know, solve problems, design better products. So if, if somebody's saying something

that's going against the laws of physics, there's something wrong there. Um, there's something he didn't quite understand with the testing. Explain how, like some of the formulas that go into what happens when you shoot your bow at something. Yeah. So let's talk about conservation of energy first. So your bow has some draw force curve. So as you draw it back, there's a, you know, there's a force at each distance back. And then as you let go of it, that string applies that force to the arrow and you have a certain amount of energy.

And that's, that's that force times distance or that area under that draw force curve. And that's going to be constant for the bow. So. I mean, I want to ask a question about that. Yeah. I get the thing where let's say your bow, you pull back and your, your bow max is at 80

pounds. Okay. Yeah. Why does it matter how long you apply that force to the arrow meaning if it does it for 12 inches or does it for five yards so it does it for 12 inches or does it for 144 inches or whatever yeah at a point a point, like why does it matter anymore? It's moving it at that speed. Um, well it gets to be a higher speed if it's applied longer.

You know, that. Is that infinite? Uh, yeah. You know, so that's Newton's second law motion is force equals mass times acceleration. So as long as you're applying force, you're increasing that acceleration and it's going to keep going faster. But here's the thing.

Like, okay, let's say I'm moving my phone across. I'm moving my phone across the table and I'm pushing it at X speed. So I'm using my arm to push my phone. Now, if I push my phone for an inch at a certain speed, right? It's going to do whatever it does. It'll slide away from my finger when I stop. If I push my phone at that speed for 12 inches and then stop, it's not like the phone skitters

across the table a lot further. No, but you did more work. You didn't put more energy. I did. Yeah. But the phone didn't, didn't harness that energy. Well, the drag, when you let go of it, the force stops and the drag brings it to a stop. Do you understand what I'm saying, Yann?

Yeah, I do, but I don't know why you don't understand why it's not working. Let me put it this way. Let's say you're driving down the road. Okay? All right. You're driving down the road in your car and you're going 30 miles an hour if you go if you drive your car for 30 miles an hour for a mile and then take your foot off uh the accelerator you're gonna coast whatever distance if you drive your car for 100 miles at 30 miles an hour and take your foot off the accelerator

it's not just gonna's going to coast farther. It's going to coast the same distance. Your car doesn't give a shit how long it was pushed at some speed. Yeah. So the difference there is that once it's up, once you're at maintaining a velocity, if there's no acceleration, there's a force balance there.

So force equals mass times acceleration. So it's just the acceleration. So the example I would be saying is more like you kept your accelerator to the floor for longer and now you're going faster, you know, at the end. Oh yeah, I got what you're saying. So maybe the- No, I'm with you.

That's a good point. So maybe when you were asking if it's infinite, maybe it's not infinite because it can only, once it achieves maximum acceleration, that's when it ends. Right? So that bow that we're drawing back, at some point there's a max, there's an end to how much it can accelerate the arrow. Yeah. So in the case of your bow, having a 30 inch draw length instead of 20, you're getting that applied longer, and you're going to get a higher speed out of the arrow when it comes off the bow. But it's like a constant acceleration.

It's not like it's going – it's a constant acceleration. It's not like it's like maxing out like at this point in your release. Yeah, but there's a point when it has to become redundant. Right, but I think in like the context of drawing a bow, it just continues to accelerate for that like length of time. I think that's why like a lot of the target archers

shoot those huge axle-to-axle bows and having like your draw length is like such a mechanical advantage. Like you can increase it by three inches and get like an extra like 20 feet per second. Well, the equation is pretty simple

that explains that. just conservation of energy. It's force times distance is going to be equal to one half MV squared. So your bow is doing this work on the arrow, which is that force times distance. And that's going to be equal. It's going to be converted to kinetic energy. There there's some slight losses in, in sound

and heat, but mainly that's what's happening. I don't want to, I don't want to be dead horse, but I will move on understanding that I don't understand it. But here's the thing. When I say infinite, I mean, what do you guys use? Let's say if you have an 80 pound, like you pull an 80 pound bow. Okay. So what number would you use as a engineer to

like describe what that pressure is or what that's a force that's a force okay it's a force yeah and you got an arrow on there now if some guy had a 50 inch draw length or a 60 inch draw length at some point it seems to me that that arrow is just going to be going the speed it's going to go when it leaves the string and it doesn't matter if you've if it's a 60 inch draw or a 30 inch draw at some point the arrow is going to harness whatever it's going to harness from that speed. No? No. How could that be true? I mean, here's the equation.

Force times distance equals one half mv squared. Okay? So if that distance increases, it'll come off with a higher velocity. Now, I mean. But it can never go faster than the string. Well, I should ask you. If you measured,

if you took a thing that they used to measure like someone's fastball and you measured the movement of the string, well, you know what? You're right. Here, I'll tell you what you're right.

It's like, if you took the bow, I know you're not supposed to because you'll blow your limbs up, but let's say you could shoot your bow with no arrow on it. that string probably moves a hell of a lot faster than it would with an arrow on right it does i'm ready to move on now now i'm with you now i'm with you

and it's because that arrow is slowing that string down. It is. And that's actually why you get a little more momentum out of a heavier arrow. Because it's being pushed a little slower. I just had to talk myself into that one, but I'm on step now. Okay. Yeah, good. So. That was good though. Did you at least understand?

Did anybody at least understand my question? Yeah. I wasn't thinking about it, that it's carrying the load of that arrow, and it's like, yeah. It's going to start out slower and then just increase as that arrow gets more mental. Okay. Hey, folks. Exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear

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slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. You know, whatever your draw, if you can draw a long, if your draw force is longer or you have a higher force, those are both going to increase the energy going to the arrow, you know, kind of one-to-one. And then you have, you know, one-half mv squared is the kinetic energy of the arrow.

And then at the target, that kinetic energy is going to be converted back to work on the arrow. So now that energy is going to apply this force times distance to penetrate, you know, through the target. Yep. And this is part of the controversy out there. If it's, if the target is say foam that has a constant force to push through and it's not velocity dependent, it's, um, so for a given bow,

it's kind of a constant energy machine or constant kinetic energy machine that whatever arrow weight you shoot out of there, it's getting the same force times distance applied to it. So it'll have very similar kinetic energy of that arrow, no matter if it's, um, for me, for me, I just tested a 450 grain arrow and a 550 grain arrow and the kinetic energy, you know, I measure the velocity, get kinetic energy, and they were within about 2% of each other. And that's what I've seen over a lot of people's data is kinetic energy is pretty constant within a few percent

from a given bow, where a little more mass will make it a little more efficient, a little less energy losses with sound or friction. So if the force to penetrate the target is relatively constant, like foam. Did you say energy loss through sound? Yes. Huh.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, sound that you hear will be a little bit of energy loss. Yeah. I never thought of it like that. It's a good point. Yeah.

Yeah. Like wind drag or like, you know, you shoot an arrow and you hear that shh, that's energy loss. Yeah. But it's not the drag itself. You're saying the actual sound that it's making is the energy loss. Yeah, that vibration, which we pick up a sound,

there's energy loss there. There's energy losses due to friction when just whatever surfaces are rubbing against each other. And that, you know, the veins through the air, that's a friction loss too and there's a little bit of heat happens whenever there's friction there's a small amount of heat and that's how you lose energy there but these are these are small factors basically what's happening is that force times distance will give you that kinetic energy and then at impact um

whatever energy you have it'll equal some force times distance to the target. And a big revelation to me was that if I can reduce that force that takes to penetrate, I get more distance one-to-one. If you can cut that force in half, you can go twice the distance. And probably the biggest revelation I found was just the importance of sharpness and edge retention and how much you can reduce that force just by having very sharp, hard edges that are durable enough, but retain that sharpness and slice through. But part of the controversy, even more lately, is that the people that are on the speed and energy, they'll shoot two arrows in a target out of a bow into a foam target and show that, Hey, these two arrows penetrate the same distance into foam. And they should,

because they have the same kinetic energy within a couple of percent and that energy is going to apply some force times distance. And if the force is not velocity dependent, you know, fairly constant, they'll both go the same distance. So that's kind of been the argument of the light fast people saying, hey, it doesn't matter how heavy your arrow is, it's going the same distance through foam or ballistic gel. The problem is it's really target dependent. And when you have an animal, there's a, I believe there's a velocity dependence there. There's been some studies that show that muscle tissue and organs are viscoelastic.

So that means the force is shear dependent. So the faster you're cutting them, the higher the force goes up. So in that case, mass is a benefit. And you can work through the calculus and the equations on this, but just to give you an example, for me, if I shoot my 450 grain arrow versus my 550 grain arrow, I estimate if there's a velocity dependence on force that's linear, I estimate I'll get about 10% more penetration through say muscle by having higher mass that's going from 450 to 550. So I believe, I believe both sides have it a little bit wrong. I think the, the high speed guys that are saying it only met kinetic energy is all that matters matters i believe there is a mass factor to it and i believe a lot of people that have they've shot heavier arrows have had that experience on

animals that yeah i'm getting a little more penetration here with this higher mass um so i think that's that's why they have it a bit wrong but i think also on their side like dr ashby and a lot of those followers say it's all mass. Um, and they make out to the mass is a huge factor. And I don't think it's that big of a factor. I feel like, you know, for me, that four 50 to five 50 grains, I estimate that'll be about a 10% increase in penetration. Um, and that's through say muscle tissue like that. Would you gain another 10% going another 100 grains to 650? I think so. I think that 550 to 650, probably another 10%. And it's so target dependent though, really.

And what are you going through? If you're going through bones, then I think that momentum, and like I said too, that I find I get about 10% more momentum out of that heavier arrow as well. And for bone penetration, it's really that the force times time. So this is Newton's second law of motion is force equals mass times acceleration. And then acceleration is change of velocity over time. So if you just move time over to the other side, you get force times time equals mass times change in velocity. Or change of momentum equals force times time. And you're moving to the other side now because we're slowing down

as it's going through the animal? Well, it's because I want to isolate momentum and explain how momentum helps you. Okay. So momentum at impact will apply some force impulse, this force times time. And I've done a lot of product shock testing in the past. We'll design, develop a product,

and then we'll shock it at higher and higher levels to see when it breaks. And what I've learned from that is there's this damage boundary curve, um, theory, but it's, you need, you need to apply a force for an amount of time. You can have an infinitely high force. If it's too short in duration, it doesn't break anything, right? Like I could apply a thousand pounds to your nose for a millisecond and it wouldn't hurt at all. But if I applied it for a second, you know, it would, it would break your nose. So a lot of things act like that. They need a given force for a given amount of time to break. Um, so momentum equals force times time, having that 10% higher momentum might just get you over that threshold to break. And it's another thing with, with, um, Dr. Ashby, he said there's a

650 grain threshold. Velocity doesn't matter. It's just mass. And a lot of people have just run with that. And there's a few, there's a couple of things that are kind of wrong with that. For one, you need, you need velocity because it's really that mass times velocity that gives you this impulse force, force times time. It's going to be able to break something. Something, and one of the things we're talking

about here is something being like through a bone. Like through a shoulder blade. Right, right. Well, there has to be some minimum velocity, right? Because it just won't work at zero velocity. Right. And I've said that over the phone to him. Like, if I throw that arrow at a Cape Buffalo, it's not going through that bone.

Yeah. So it's not just mass. And I think he understands that. But I think he, you know, his world is a long bow shooting 15 to 20 yards at a Cape Buffalo. Uh-huh. And that's really what he was after. You know, getting through that hide in that, um, like a three quarter inch thick flat rib bone. And that's what all his work, work is around.

And it's going to be so target dependent. You know, what, what, what momentum or what force impulse does it take to break the bone? It depends on what the bone is, right? I mean, that, that should be obvious to people that a scapula is thinner than maybe lower on the shoulder bone to a leg bone. And so that's one side of it.

It depends on what the bone is. The other thing is it depends on what you're trying to drive through the bone. If you're trying to drive, you know, aluminum ferrule, chisel point, head, and very thin blades, it could be that it's going to lose that force. You know, that force to crush that is less than the force to pop that bone.

And that's what happens a lot there. So that. Oh, you mean the force that before it pops the bone, it'll break the blades. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It'll break the blade or bend over the ferrule

or things like that. Yeah. So, you know, Dr. Ashby, I think his number one thing was, um, structural integrity of the broadhead and the components. Correct. Yeah. So I think that, I mean, we agree there and, and that's a lot of what

was wrong with the products I had been using is there were no way they were going to make it through bone. You know, they crush when they go through bone. And, and that's a lot of the initial work I did as I spent about five years going through different steels, different heat treat processes, ended up settling on A2 tool steel, which is used to cut metal and metal stamping dyes. Cause it can be very hard, sharp, and it has the toughness, you know, to cut metals or to cut through bone and, um, and, and not get crushed. Cause if things get crushed or bend or break, it just sucks up all the energy. Um, so we don't totally agree there. You need something durable enough to get through the bone but then i don't think 650 grain is is a great number it didn't work for me being

an out west bow hunter it was too heavy i was getting a big nose dive to my arrows when that arrow dives off you uh like if you're shooting a real heavy arrow and it dies off and you're talking about the nose dive, right? Right. As it drops in velocity. Um, obviously it going slower isn't good, but does that, does that changed angle matter? Yeah, there is a change of angle and you know, it doesn't stay necessarily, like it starts to lose its horizontal. Right. Yeah. Or does it, or am I wrong?

No, you're right. I've shot animals at long distance and the entrance and exit holes look like I shot it out of a tree stand. Got it. So there's a lot of drop. And you also need to know your yardage very accurately then too. Yeah. Because of that trajectory. Yeah, I was going to ask when, when you see or at what distance you see the nosedive starting. I mean, I know that that's dependent on many factors, but.

Yeah. You know, at that time with the bow I was using, and bows have become a lot more efficient. But at that time, trying to shoot a 650 green arrow out of my 70-pound bow and the energy it had, I was really seeing it dive off a lot at 50 yards at that point. Okay. Yeah. And that's going to vary by bow. Yeah. And that, that's going to vary by bow. Yeah. Well, that's like one of the things that like, I shoot a, uh, I shoot a Rover sight and I got one

pin like set at 40. That's like adjustable. One pin set at six. It's adjustable. It's this two pin system. And the reason I got that was specifically because like, I felt comfortable pin gapping out to about, you know, 40 yards, you know, so

anything between 30 and like 40, but past that, I noticed there was such a significant drop that even as, and I'm not shooting a particularly heavy air. I mean, I'm shooting like on like the heavier spectrum, my setups like 515 grains, but even that past 40 yards, I mean, like the differential is huge. If you think something's at 44 and you think it's walking broadside, but it's actually kind of like walking away from you at a very slight angle and it's at 47, you're like point impact is going to be like four inches different sometimes.

Right. And, and like you, I like to, if I see a, say an elk under 50 yards, I just want to draw and shoot it. I've had too many times when I decided to go in range and it was some other animal saw me and they took off running and I kicked myself like, why didn't I just draw and shoot? I knew it was 40 or 44. And so, yeah, if it's under 50, I like to eyeball range it, take the shot because you don't know what's going to happen if you wait longer. So that's part of the reason I wanted to have a flatter trajectory. Yeah.

Well, and then also it like eliminates, like when I think about like an accurate arrow or like an arrow that will kill something in particular, I think about that shot is like a percentage, um, if. It's like, I would rather know that I can put the arrow when I, where I mean to inside of 50 yards than have the insurance that comes from being like, well, I can blow through that thing. Scapula scapula. If I like make a bad shot. And so it's like, what's the trade off there? It's like, I get the insurance if it's like right or left, I guess. But I put myself at a disadvantage because if my range is even a little bit off,

like it's going to be, you know what I'm saying? Like, does it make sense? Well, that's totally the trade-off. And that's what I tell people that ask for, you know, how do I increase my penetration? And I tell them, well, shoot the heaviest mass you can for the trajectory that you want or within the trajectory that you want or within the trajectory

that you want. Yeah. Because increasing mass will give you those increases in penetration. They're not, they're not huge, but you know, like I said, it's maybe 10% on a hundred grain roughly, or, or give you a 10% better chance of breaking that bone say. So, so there is a improvement to mass, but it's dropping off your trajectory. Yeah. So that's the trade-off, really.

And I think really, I mean, I think Ashby, like, he kind of was saying the same thing. It was like 650 was the best that worked for him, but I think he says that you should shoot the heaviest arrow you can within the trajectory that's acceptable to you personally, right? Yeah, he's been saying that. I've seen that more lately. And I've been saying- He's changed his tune a little bit? I think maybe. I mean, I've been saying that to him for a couple of years, but I don't, I don't, I don't

want to say I influenced it. I want to bring up to your point. This is what Mark, I'd like to take credit for this, but Mark Boardman brought up this because we were having this conversation. Mark Boardman from Vortex, our buddy over there. He's saying, you know, I'd like a flat shooting arrow because like the last two or three whitetail bucks that he's shot have been like plus 40 and maybe even right at 50 yards, you know, which is pretty far shot, small target, you know, on a whitetail. And but we were kind of talking about what a heavier arrow can do, like if you happen to miss, and he says to me, he says, you know, but I didn't think about all the shots

that I've passed up that were close because I didn't have the proper orientation to the animal. You know, whether he was quartering to or head on. He could have just been bone busting the whole time. Exactly. That's one of the biggest factors, I think, for shooting ironwell broadhead and shooting a little heavier arrow is that on a

deer size animal, it just opens up all these other shot angles. Right. You know, the last, last couple of mule deer I've shot were actually quartering on coming into decoys and a little bit of a downward shot. I knew what the, I know the bone structure well, I knew it was going to be thin scapula and put it right through there and, um, got a complete

pass through into the ground, but I was just totally confident that I can make that shot with this broadhead, this arrow. Um, so I think it does open, opens up shot opportunities. You know, I started shooting your broadheads because Phelps does, and Phelps has real strong opinions about it and he taught me into shooting

them and then, uh, it's, you know, it's a little bit tricky, but he talked me into him and Yanni kind of talked me into like a shot that I would have never taken in the old days. The frontal shot. Yeah, the frontal shot, like low brisket. And me and Phelps both shot bulls together like that last year with your broadheads, and neither of them went anywhere. And that was kind of like, I'm saying i don't you know it worked good but it was kind of like that doing a thing that you thought you weren't supposed to do but someone convincing you that

you had the right necessary thing to do it but it still feels funny yeah i didn't think like to get to a point where you're like to get to a point where you're like, to get to a point where you had deer that are quartering to you and you're so confident about what's going to happen, you're just going to like punch it in there. Knowing you're going to bust through all those bones, you know?

Yeah. For years I didn't. For years I passed up frontal shots or slight quartering too. And it was through through and at the same time I've shot through hundreds of leg bones with our broadheads and completely passed through even like a moose femur completely passed through and the broadhead looks good so I I knew that it could get through the bones but yeah I had that still had that in my head that quartering two is

a is a no-go shot or frontal is a no-go but um yeah and you know people are going to argue whether or not it's ethical but i think i've got the knowledge at this point that i know it's going through 100 confident got it's going through that bone and it's going to stick into the ground on the other side of them you know a thing that comes out of this is uh i remember in talking to ash we talked about this where if you hit it like if you hit a deer elk whatever and you come in behind the shoulder blade and you angle in and punch a hole in its heart it's dead it's like he's it was kind of like we're not talking about that like all the setups out there that everybody has if you don't hit if you go pass between two ribs and punch a hole in its heart, sure.

Right. The conversation is what happens when it doesn't do that. Right. Any broadhead, you shoot behind the shoulder. All you have is maybe a rib and the heart's there. You know, any broadhead is going to, going to kill it. It's what are the other trade-offs? Let's say it ducked and turned into it and you hit the shoulder.

And let me add before I forget, I don't want to advocate that, you know, kids out there should be shooting deer in the shoulder blade right now either. Because it's going to depend on your setup, your broadhead, you know, you have to know what you're capable of. And I don't want to, I don't want to encourage, you know, shots that would be unethical if you don't have the right setup for it. Mechanicals, you know, you're not going through the shoulder blade probably. But it's a funny conversation though to say ethical because you'd be like, that's not ethical. And you'd say, well, why is that not ethical? Is it measured by, it's measured by an obsolete, it's like not ethical as measured by obsolete

technology. Right. I believe it's. That's where it came from. It's not ethical because it doesn't work. And you'd be like, well, it does work. I believe it's ethical. Which therefore makes it ethical.

Yeah. I believe it's ethical. If there's a high percentage chance, it's going to be a very quick, quick kill. And I believe it is. And if with a mechanical, I don't think it is to go shoot through the shoulder blade. There's a, I mean, they might get through,

but a good chance they wouldn't. So, you know, you might argue that's not an ethical shot, but it's, I guess that's why I use the word ethical is I feel like as a high percentage of a very quick kill, very quick death. Yeah. Taking the animal. risk of overstaying the point would be when you say whether or not a certain shot with a bow is ethical, it's sort of like, is it ethical with what I'm shooting? Right. Not, is it ethical? Right. With what I'm shooting, my personal capabilities, my effective range, all those things come into it. I think, is it, you know, what are the odds that that animal, you're going to take that animal quickly, um, versus maybe wound the

animal, you know, that would be the, the decision there. Yeah. One of the things that Ashby said, and I noticed this cause I had had your broadheads is, um, he had said that the shape of the point on your broadheads is like the big no, no. Really?

You didn't know this? No. No, I think he said it was good. No, he likes it. No, I thought he said that anything with a shoulder. Tonto tip, it's the same thing that he uses that they like too.

No, he likes a tanto tip for sure. I thought he only liked the long gradual pointy. Well, he likes the tanto tip for sure. I thought he only liked the long, gradual pointy. Well, he likes the three to one. And that's the, he likes the three to one ratio. Are you sure he didn't say that it's naughty to have a step or a shoulder? 100%. You're positive.

100%. That's pretty positive. Are you talking about the shoulder on the blade? Right here. I thought that's naughty. No, he likes that. That's knotty. No, he likes that. That's the tanto tip.

That adds a lot of strength. I don't think I'm messing this up. Am I messing this up? You're messing it up. But he does push the three to one, which is one of the biggest points of contention I really have with him. Okay, explain three to one. All right. So it's being applied wrong.

The mechanism is wrong there it's he's saying a three to he's saying a broadhead that has say a three to one aspect ratio like three inches long one inch wide okay draw draw that for me you're talking about you're talking about the shape of the broadhead yeah okay so he just drew a little broadhead very classic little broadhead yeah so the the length is three inches and the width is one inch. Okay. At its base. Yeah.

Yeah. The width, like the cutting width you'd have would be one inch, but the length out sticking out the front of the arrow is three inches. So that makes three to one. That's three to one. Okay. And it takes three inches.

I would call that. It takes three inches to express its full one inch of width. Yes. Like if I want to make a one inch cut in your abdomen, a one inch wide cut in your abdomen, I would need to insert this blade three inches into you. Right. It's got a, it's making a wedge. It's like, yeah, the wedge an inch has got to push forward three inches.

Okay. And he likes three to one. Yeah. And. likes three to one. Yeah, and. Which I would say is a shallow ass angle. It is. It's nine degrees. And I would say.

No, eight degrees. I could imagine taken to an extreme, you might wind up with something pretty flimsy up toward the tip. Exactly. So there's two negatives to it. One is that. Seeing as Yanni, I'm like an engineer, bro. You are. So there's two disadvantages. Now that One is that. Seeing as Yanni, I'm like an engineer, bro. You are. So there's two disadvantages. Now that I understand that problem I had earlier.

There's two disadvantages. One is it's got a weak point because the stress is proportional to length cubed. So a three to one is going to have a lot higher stress and be more likely to break the tip off. Okay. The other issue is it's not going to fly very well because you got a lot more surface area. Well, it's going to be less stable, less forgiving in flight.

Okay. And what he says is that this has a three to one mechanical advantage. And that's where the problem is. Mechanical advantage is, it's a term used on a simple machine to give the ratio of force import to force output. So like on a lever, you might have like a, you input a force, you get three, three, input one pound, you get three pounds out. Got it.

You know, the shape of the lever. So he's applying that to a broadhead like it's a wedge, like it's wedging something up an inch. Okay. Like, like a box that would slide on a wedge. Yeah. If you pushed in a pound of force, you get about a three pound, pushed in with one pound, you get about three pounds force pushing that up. Well, a broadhead doesn't wedge an animal apart. So this is a big, this is a big myth here that it's really cutting it. It's slicing it. You're only wedging it apart the thickness of the blades. Yeah.

Yeah. Or the ferrule. Yeah. Or then the ferrule and then the, and then the arrow, but it's totally being applied wrong. Three to one mechanical advantage is, should not be applied to a broadhead. You call it a three to one aspect ratio, but it's dominated by the force to cut. Okay.

It's not, it's not wedging the whole animal apart, right? So is there some other scientific term or, or mechanism that what he, cause what he is saying is correct, right? If, if your blade is steeper, it should take less force to push through the medium than if it was wider. Yes. And what I've found myself is that.

That's a good point. So a three to one, three to one has about a, I think it's eight degrees per side. You know, if you look at the axis of the arrow, three to one is about eight degree. A one and a half to one is about 16 degrees. Those are both very shallow angles when you talk about cutting something. Yeah. And what I've found is there's very little difference

in force to penetrate if you have a very sharp edge. So if you think about taking a knife and you're going to cut a roast and you're going to just cut it at an eight degree angle and what force would that take versus a 16 degree angle, what force would that take versus a 16 degree angle? What force would that take with a really sharp knife? They're both pretty shallow cuts, right? They're both just slicing.

Now, if you get up to like 45 degrees or more, where it's more of a chop, then I think that's where it becomes a problem. So if you tested it all the way out to 45 degrees or, or seeing like, when does it make a difference? When all of a sudden you're like, all right, yeah, this thing's not penetrating. Yeah. I think up over, up over 40, maybe it does, but what I've seen in the, in the range and even at a one-to-one, that's a 26 degree angle. That's pretty shallow. Um, I have found, and I've, I've measured the force to penetrate, you know, with

the Instron machine going down through hide and muscle. And I don't get any difference in force with, with that, um, those changes in angle of about one to one, 1.5 to one. And I've talked to Dr. Ashby about this. And the last time I talked to him, he actually said, yeah, my data doesn't really, um, doesn't really show the three to one. He's tested 2.6 to one and had the same results as three to one. He said that was more of a Howard Hill thing that was carried forward. So it's more like folklore that you need a three to one for, um, for a broadhead shape.

So that's a myth. Let's, everybody out there, quit saying it. Quit saying it. It's not true. Dude, you know what's driving me crazy? More crazy than when I couldn't understand about the bow and the length of the amount of time your string applies pressure

onto your arrow. Uh-huh. That constant acceleration. Dude, I swear there was something about that he didn't like a shoulder. He didn't like chisel tips. He wanted to cut on contact, which is what that is.

Okay. Maybe that's what I'm mixing up. So what he liked is the tanto tip. So the straight three to one where it's got the same angle going all the way out. He likes truncating that with a little bit. So a tanto tip just means instead of having that say eight degree per side all the way

out, you go to maybe a 20 degree per side right at, right at the end. And if you don't, you break that tip really easily. Right. So that's for structural integrity, right? Yeah. So that's basically the reason for it. And I found that too.

I was testing a lot of three to one broadheads initially through bone. I was breaking the points off all the time and they weren't flying well. And so I started in my own design getting shorter and shorter over time and then adding that tanto tip to increase that strength when you hit heavy bones.

So that's what you're after when you do that Tonto tip blade is you're after getting rid of that somewhat flimsy, narrow point. Right. Right. Got it. On one of Dr. Ed Ashby's broadheads, he does have slight Tonto

tip on it. It's like. He does. Very slight. So I was wrong. Okay. Yeah, that's one of his. That's a first.

Remember happy days when Fonz, he'd be like, I was. So what, how do you, like, what have you done to actually test it on bone right because i think that there's a thing with like and a guy like take something in my mind would be you can look and be uh all right i accept all the laws of physics okay all right but in your head you're like but what if you're like what if you're like missing something like you're not thinking of something right so i just would want to see um shoot it into a bunch of bones and see what happens yeah can you do you feel that you can get to a thing where you know you've accounted for everything and not need to

go do that because i was thinking that's kind of the main thing he brings to it is he shot umpteen thousand arrows into all kinds of dead shit right do you know i'm saying like how you know if you went to a lot of you know the bulk of americans i think they'd go like, okay, I get all the, you know, all the thinking and calculating and figuring. Right. But how can you argue with just shooting arrows into dead stuff and seeing what it does? Because what if the tinker,

the, the figuring and thinking didn't account for some like unknown weirdness? Like what hair, you know, what is, what is the role of hair? Right. What is the role of it, of is, what is the role of hair? Right. What is the role of it, of hide?

What is the role of hitting hide and then the bone? Yeah. Good point. You can have, we can have the mechanisms wrong, right? I can try to apply science, but I could be applying it wrong. If I, if the mechanism's a little bit different than what I think it is. Kind of that wedge versus cutting thing going on. Um, and, and you're right in theory, and I've done this in theory, I can calculate that with my bow, my arrow set up my broadhead, you know, I've measured the force

to penetrate, hide muscle scapula. I can, you know, theoretically I calculated that I can get a double shoulder blade pass through on an elk, um, on paper. Um, but yeah. There's gotta be some part of your brain. It's like, now I'll have to try it out. Right. And I, and I have, I've gotten single shoulder blade pass throughs on, on elk.

I haven't shot one through both, but I've shot a big boar through both shoulder blades and spine and got, it passed through both shoulder blades and the spine. So, you know, I hunt a lot. I get, um, average maybe 15 animals a year. I hunt, I hunt a lot of elk, um, elk, deer, caribou, pigs, other things. So, I mean, I love bow hunting and that's really why I'm doing this is I want to be a more effective bow hunter. Um, but I also shot a lot of bones.

So I was getting, you know, cattle bones from the butcher, saving elk bones. And, and that's really one of my early goals was just to penetrate through bone, make sure I got to the vitals and didn't have it stop there. So, you know, that made me iterate on which steel type, um, which ferrule type go going to like titanium hardened steel. So the ferrules didn't bend, um, and then work on the arrow connection set up so that that, you know, the arrow didn't break as well.

So yeah, I've tested on by shooting a lot of bones and really, cause that's a good durability test in that. And that impact is hard to model. It's hard to just calculate. Um, it's very complex and, and if you think about it and what I didn't really, I really hadn't put a lot of thought into it prior to 2004 is that a broadhead blade has a really difficult job. I mean, where else out there do you have something that you want to be very, very sharp to cut, but you're also going to fling it at 300 feet per second and not know what you hit. It might hit, it's going to hit hide. It might hit bone.

Um, you don't know what angle it's going to hit at. So it's a pretty, it's a pretty difficult job, you know, that broadhead has is to stay intact, stay sharp, cut, and to have this tremendous impact. Um, yeah, that's, that's a, you bring up an interesting point there. Cause if you imagine like taking your fillet knife and cleaning a fish, you have this instrument designed for, that might be great for cutting through.

Right. Fish muscle. Right. Right. But then all of a sudden you realize that you put a scale in front of it and it doesn't like that and you go to remove the fish's collar and it definitely doesn't like that and then you imagine now i'm going to stab it through the fish's skull and it really doesn't like that but you wouldn't declare you know i mean but you're sort of with your broadhead you're

sort of saying no no you got it i want you to do any and all of that. Right. When I shoot it at this fish, when I take it to this fish, right? Yeah. And that's why a lot of, a lot of broadheads, broadheads kind of evolved to be manufactured at a low cost. So cheaper materials, thinner parts, um, a lot of aluminum or softer steel ferrules and 420 blade steel.

It's kind of a low-end steel, but it can be manufactured very low cost. And so a lot of the products drove more towards, you know, lower cost to manufacture. And I think that's what consumers wanted. They wanted things that were lower cost. And they work, if you hit them behind the shoulder, they work fine. But they don't do very good on these bone impacts. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And, boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians

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That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it. Be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more.

As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. What are some of the cost differentials out there? You know, just in dollars. What's a cheap broadhead and what's an expensive broadhead? Yeah. Three for 30 or $40 is kind of the going rate for most, um, you know, big store broadheads I would say. And, and, um. So still 10 bucks, 12 bucks a piece.

Yeah. That's, that's probably most typical. I mean, you'll find some that are six for $25, really, really low end stuff. But I'd say around three for 40 is pretty common. Three for 45, 50 some. You know, Ironwell Broadheads are, we're at like 119 for a three pack. So it's about. Oh, really?

Yeah, like three times as much. So. Wow. I had no idea. Like, where's that, you know, I'm trusting it's going somewhere. Where is that money going? I don't mean like, what are you doing?

Like, what, what are the materials differences? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So. Like, what is expensive about? What is, what makes them expensive? The labor or the material?

It's the materials and manufacturing processes. Okay. So yeah, the, the steel, for instance, it's a, it's a tool steel. It's thick, 62,000 is thick. So, you know, versus most blades that are thinner, they can, you can run those on a reel to reel. You can have a coil of material on one side.

It can go through a machine and get stamped, um, ground everything right there and come out on the other side as a complete blade. You know, that's a very low cost to make those versus this blade is made more like you would a high-end knife where you're taking, you're blanking out the steel when it's softened. We do a heat treatment with a triple temper and a cryogenic treatment to kind of maximize performance of the steel.

And then it's a multi-stage grinding and honing. So it's extremely sharp and holds the edge, you know, it's 60 Rockwell C, which is what you'd have on a, on a high end knife really. But yet with the tool steel, it, it can take a high impact strength. Um, and as we were talking about the difficult job of a broadhead, that's why a lot of people will try to apply knife steels to it, which the steel might work great in a knife because it's not having a high speed impact. It doesn't have to have a lot of toughness. Um, but stainless steel is fairly brittle when it's that hard and it has some high, high impact. Do you sell a lot of broadheads to whitetail

guys or do you mostly sell broadheads to guys that are hunting elk and moose and stuff? It's, it's becoming more and more definitely. Initially we were selling to elk hunters. That was our major customer or guys coming from the east out west to hunt elk. And we were, it's kind of thought of as like an elk specialty broadhead. You know, this is made to penetrate through a bigger animal further. But more and more whitetail guys are using it too. And what I found personally is I needed a lot in whitetails because they're so much more likely to move, you know, duck and turn and hit the shoulder. So I think it's, you know, it opens up shot opportunities straight down through the spine or if you hit a shoulder in a whitetail. And it's, it's, it's maybe not the average whitetail hunter, but it's the guy that's going

after the, you know, the bigger buck or he's really passionate about, about it and doesn't want, doesn't want to have any failures. You know, wants to remove any failures he can from his gear and setup. Hayden, you just killed a antelope with one of, uh, with the iron wheel broadhead. Right here, man.

Oh, let me see it. Now, Yanni, what broadheads do you shoot in these days? It's called a, uh, tough head evolution. Now, uh, let's do, let me see it. Now, Yanni, what broadheads are you shooting these days? It's called a tough head evolution. Now, let's play this game. Let's say Bill handed you a box of the broadheads. You'd say, well, no, I'm not going to use those because... No, I wouldn't.

I think, I mean, for what I know, they're very similar. I mean, I think that some of the steel and some of the stuff that Bill can speak to that I can't, but I think as far as like shape and, uh, size and what they're supposed to do, it's, they're pretty similar. Yeah. It's a high end broadhead too. It uses tool steel. Um, do you know what steel you're using and the ones you have? That's all right. I think it's a high-end broadhead too. It uses tool steel. Do you know what steel you're using and the ones you have? That's all right. I think there's a couple that he uses,

but he's using tool steel. One of the difference would be I've added bleeders. I really like that cross cut. And that's kind of more game dependent. If I was just like Dr. Ashby going after Cape Buffalo or Asian Buffalo. Isn't that Ed Ashby no-no, bleeders? Yeah, he just likes a two blade.

Okay. Yeah. And if, if I was shooting and we make a, what we call our buff series, which has no bleeders, really for somebody that wants to go after Cape Buffalo. Got it. Okay.

What I found for North American big game, having a, that cross cut of a bleeder setback has minimal effect on penetration and then it opens up this cross cut. So you get a much better blood trail, you know, more total cut, more total inches sliced. So bleeds out faster, quicker kill, more blood on the ground. So I'm a big fan of bleeders.

For the first two years, I didn't have any. And occasionally we would just get a very poor blood trail. Like that single slice just can close up too easily yeah so i like having that cross cut it kind of forces there to be an open hole to some degree i've i've told this before i think on this podcast but i shot a magnus stinger into a cow elk maybe 15 years ago and it did great what i thought at first because it like bone or rib,

scapula and a rib on the way out, complete pass through, just like, you know, you wouldn't hit her anywhere else. Long story short, 24 hours later, after the blood trail pretty much disappears,

I'm just doing mercy loops and I find her, she had gone a mile kind of in a circle, but she had fallen into this beaver pond which was lucky for me because she was like completely preserved just ice cold it's so funny gutting it gutting an animal story but i didn't know where where like the guts are ice

cold you know it was great for the necropsy because you could really see everything that happened but exactly that it had gone through both lungs but had only had a cut on a single axis and all the best i could figure is that that hole just it she was it the lungs were able to keep that hole together and not lose compression or lose was it towards the back of the was it towards like higher back like towards the back of the lungs the black lobes man boy i'd had to go look at the pictures but i'd just tell you it was pretty much dead center if I can remember. I mean, it was, but yeah, but it just, yeah, she went, we bumped her like at least twice the first day. And then we just decided to just, you know, set up camp and

sleep and go after it again in the morning. The blood just disappeared. You know, when I, when I hear cases that guy like got a double lung shot, but the animal went a lot further than it should. I think one thing I've seen a lot with, um, like the 420 stainless steel, um, especially in, I think mechanicals where they're only hardening it to like 46, 48 rock we'll see is it doesn't hold that edge very well.

So you get through hide, you really get through the hair and hide and it's dull. And then you're pushing tissue apart. So you might through hide, you really get through the hair and hide and it's dull. And then you're pushing tissue apart. So you might poke a hole through it. And, and I've done a little testing of this with, with a friend through like organs and things that you can take a liver, um, say, and push a really sharp broadhead through it. Like our, um, like the ironwall broadhead, and you'll get a complete cross cut. That's exactly the size of the broadhead through there then you take a maybe a three blade um that has the blades have been dulled from the hide in the hair and push it through there and you get a you get a hole through it but you won't get the blades to cut the tissue will just kind of push push aside so that's another thing that

it's kind of hard to measure um for people when they're doing these different penetration tests, they don't really factor that in, but having that sharpness edge retention, so you're actually slicing tissue all the way through you cutting a lot more tissue that you're not pushing aside and you get quicker kills for that. And I think that bigger hole through the lungs makes them collapse quicker. Um, because you're going to have, and you know, I've got a brother that's a pathologist and I've talked to other doctors about this to try and understand like, you know, what it takes to kill an animal. Cause I've, I've seen if you hit a, an animal high and back in the lungs, they can take

longer to die. Yeah. A hundred percent. There's just less stuff back there, right? Yeah. There's less bleeding going on and you know, you can can remove a lobe and somebody can still live, right? So, um, they can still kind of breathe in the front lobes. And I think it, you need enough of a hole, enough air to get in there to kind of collapse the lungs. And it's why sometimes people will see an animal go for minutes on a double lung shot. Um, and that's also the reason why I like to aim, you know, in that vital V close to the top of the heart lung area, because it, you know, it's risky because there's bones around, but if you've got the right broadhead that you can get through the bone, that's the quick kill. You know, that heart, top of the heart lung area, it's like five seconds, that animal's dead. And, you know, usually drop it in sight if you can hit closer there.

Yeah, our buddy Cody Kellum from Born and Raised brought up a really good point. We were talking about this stuff at the First Light Hootenanny last weekend, and he was saying when he was a kid, his dad would make him sharpen his broadheads too, and they would take like, remember when peep sights had the tubing that would keep your peep sight dialed? Yeah, yeah.

They would just stretch that, not too tight, but he'd say, imagine that's an artery and then see how much force it takes your broadhead to cut that like does it just touch it and immediately it pops and cuts it or do you have to slice that whole edge across it before it cuts right and it's the same thing when that dull broadheads going through that animal if it's not sharp those arteries can just be literally just moving out of the way and and it's going through it, but it's not doing any damage. Oh, pushing them out of the way. And I saw that in the force testing I was doing.

So I was pushing down different broadhead designs. And a really sharp cut-on-contact two-blade versus like a three-blade chisel point, there'll be about a five times difference in force to go through. And it's really what focused me more on having a two blade cut on contact tip. But what I'd see on the, on the cheaper steels is that if I repeated the test, push through hide and hide muscle again, the force is going way up.

So they dulled quickly and we're pushing more stuff aside. Let's, let's do this for a second. Tell me some things that like, that you see people doing that you can just flat out say categorically that is stupid. Like there's no nothing. There's no like, there's no logical, reasonable, whatever to support what you think is true like for instance i saw i believe i was i was raised to understand that pine squirrels castrated fox squirrels and gray squirrels that they bit their nuts off this though i still think it's true i no longer know why because the academic community

soundly is like it's not a thing it's not a thing this is not a thing okay what are people doing that just has no backing um well this is this is the first thing that popped into my mind this it's kind of a bit of pet peeve is everybody's doing there's dozens of people doing broadhead testing out there, like showing the penetration of different broadheads and they're shooting ballistic gel. Okay. And. Go on.

It's, it's pretty worthless for, I mean, I shoot it too. It's, it's fun to shoot through it and look at it, but ballistics gel, um, it's, it's so fric, there's so much friction on the shaft stopping it. They'll test 10 different broadheads and they'll have a variation of like an inch and

they'll pick out a winner from that. And I've seen, yeah, I've seen two different broadheads that I know have like a three times difference through a, through an animal and they'll have the same penetration through a ballistics gel. It's cool to look at. And lots of guys are doing it, but it's

pretty worthless. Let's explore that for a minute. Let's say I came to you and I was going to do a bow test. I was going to do a broadhead test. We're just going to shoot into blocks of oak. Okay. Yeah. And declare a winner.

Would you say to yourself, oh, if that's the case, I'm going to go design a broadhead really good at shooting through a block of oak. Exactly. Like, uh, I know a guy that did concrete block, you know, was his test, right? That was a medium. Yeah. And I told him I can design a broadhead that's going to look, do perfect for that.

It's going to look like a, it's going to look like this field point right here, you know, a hardened steel field point and the blades will be set back. So they never even hit the concrete and you're going to shoot it into there and you're going to look at it and say, wow, this one didn't get damaged at all.

This is the best broadhead. But if, you know, a big chunk of steel in the front, big ball of steel is not going to be the best for penetrating through an animal. So it's so target dependent and all these broadhead tests out there, maybe not, shouldn't say all, but a large number of them are shooting through

targets that don't apply to animals at all. You know what, one of the revelatory moment for me, and I still don't understand it, is we were calling Javelina one time and they come in, like if everything goes right, they come in like hot, right? And in the heat of the moment, I accidentally grabbed a field point and shot one with it. And that thing, you'd have think, if you'd have asked me, I would have thought it would just zip right through it. Because why not? There's no big old thing that's trying to drag through. You just imagine it's going to pencil it.

That thing didn't do shit to that javelin, really. Where'd you hit it? I can't even remember now. I just remember it ran off and you could see the arrow flopping in its side. But why did that not just go right? I would have thought it would just go right through him

because there's no resistance for trying to pass a big broadhead through him. Yeah, I would have actually thought there's a chance it could go right through. No, man. It takes a lot of force to penetrate the high, I would have actually thought there was a chance it could go right through. No, man. But, um. Didn't even phase him. It takes a lot of force to penetrate the high, I don't know about a javelina hide, but.

It didn't bounce off. It just didn't. And maybe it was on bone, but I would have been like, my thing was it would have zipped through it and you wouldn't have, you may be hard to find because it wasn't bleeding or something like that. Yeah.

I actually would have maybe guessed that too, that like, can a field point penetrate a javelina? Probably, but it doesn't slice much. So not much bleeding and not a, not a quick kill, but. Were you with me when that happened, Yanni? I was nearby.

I don't know if I was right next to you, but we were on the same trip. But you know, that cone point really takes a lot of force to, to penetrate, um, to penetrate high. So can you add that to things that you think people do that are stupid? Uh, yeah, that would be up there.

It would be up there. I actually had a customer say that he shot, his last shot at his elk last year was a field point because that's what he had left. And how did it do? Well, the elk died right then, but I told him it probably died from the other three, you know, arrows you had in it.

It was, it was, um, it was, you know, it was down, it was going to die anyway. But he said that when he shot his last, he didn't realize it was a field point until after he went over there. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's through the heart. So, you know, that, that helps. Give me another one. Things you see in the archery community that just do not add up to scientific rigor. Oh, FOC. Okay. Ooh.

Extreme, extreme FOC. So. Because there's this whole thing like that the weighted shaft is pushing. No, it's actually pulling. Yeah. So there, there's really not much scientific basis for that high or extreme FOC will increase penetration,

at least not at the basic level. So Newton's second law of motion, force equals mass times acceleration. As we said, you rearrange that, you get force times time equals mass times velocity. So that's momentum equals force times velocity. Um, so that's momentum equals force times time. Momentum is a, is a vector quantity. So it's in a straight, it's in a straight line. It has a direction to it. So this is probably the most basic way to calculate, you know, how far will this arrow penetrate through this animal is what is that momentum at impact? It's going to apply this force over time. FOC is not in there.

So FOC is like, where's the center of mass located in that arrow. And Dr. Ashby says that going from a 19% to a 23% FOC will increase penetration by 30%. Okay. The, the physics wouldn't say that that's only changing the center of mass an inch forward.

Okay. If that arrow is going in a straight line and that mass is all along that axis in a straight line, going into the animal, FOC doesn't even enter into it. Okay. I think that, you know know with him shooting a long bow you know a long bow has this archer's paradox it's pretty extreme you know your your string's going towards the

center of the riser the arrow's being mounted off you know it's sitting off to the side it's getting better arrow flight and you need and you need a lot of point weight and fairly flexible, fairly low spine to get that thing to bend around the riser and end up going straight at the target. So you got an excessive flexing of that arrow back and forth. And on a longbow, especially 15 to 20 yard shots, I think bow tuning and arrow flight trumps everything. And I think that was his number two. He said, perfect arrow flight, which you never really achieve. I don't think a long bow, but I think he recognized that arrow flights extremely important. And it probably, and I've talked to other traditional guys that are also scientists and do a lot of testing and they kind of say, arrow, uh, bow tuning, arrow flight kind of trumps everything if that arrow is not straight when

it impacts if it's bowed way over um or if it's at some angle it's really going to kill your penetration that's because that momentum um that mass times velocity in a straight line is what gives you that force times time if it's not in a straight line if it's bowed back and forth or off to the side you know you're going to get very poor penetration and so the the the heavy foc or the foc arrows are more um might be more forgiving if you have poorly tuned or wobbly arrows but if it's if your shit's, it ceases to matter as much. A lot of the times I think they just correct themselves a lot quicker. You know, once you shoot with those heavy FOC arrows, you still get like a lot of flex in the shaft, but it's just that heavy.

It drags, it gets itself into line. You buy that Bill? Yeah. I think they restore faster. I think that, um, there's a higher frequency of that bending back and forth. I think that with more point weight, the fletching gets steered straighter, quicker. So I think that extreme high and extreme FOC, it was all about aero flight for him. And I don't think, so I don't, I think a lot of compound guys are applying it right now.

And it doesn't, it just doesn't really apply. Um, I just did some high-speed video testing looking at my arrow coming off my bow a few weeks ago and my, my arrow barely flexes. When my bow is tuned, um, and by tuned, I mean the, the knock is pushing, you know, the string is pushing the knock directly in line with the

rest. So the arrow is coming straight off of the bow. It's not fishtailing right, left, up or down. There's really minimal flexing. Like you can barely see maybe a little bit of vertical flex, but it's. Really? That's interesting. Yeah.

I barely see any. And that's why, and I get really good flight if I'm optimally spined and I tested a little weak, optimally spined and a little over spined. And I was, I was seeing kind of barely any flexing. So that arrow's going very straight, you know, say a foot or a couple of feet off of the bow. Then I think FOC has a minimal effect. I think it's just mass times velocity in that straight line that gives you the penetration. And I'd see a ton of people. I have friends that are custom.

You're looking at one right now. This is Joe FOC over here. Joe Fox. I mean, I don't think, I actually don't think it, I don't think it hurts. I mean, I don't think higher mass, higher FOC, you know, hurt anything other than trajectory. And if you're shooting closer and I, and I tell a lot of people this, you know, if you're, if you're shooting closer range and you can get your bow to tune a shoot well, go for it. The issue I see with it, and I know a number of custom arrow builders, they'll have a customer come to them and say, I got to have 20% FOC. And they'll say, well, um, I can get you there, but you're going to be underspined, you know,

really with your arrow and bow set up to get that high, I'm going to have to put more point weight. We can't get an arrow spine, you know. Because they don't make arrow spines heavy enough to handle that, right? Yeah. It's hard for me with a 30 inch draw to get 19 to 23% FOC.

I've got to have a lot of mass up there and I'm going to be probably be underspined. And I see a lot of mass up there and I'm going to be probably be underspined. And I see a lot of guys that choose the mass and the high FOC over aero flight. And that's, that's a big mistake, I think. And that's, that's what I'd like people to, to quit doing. Um, if you can get it all to work out, if you can get high mass, high FOC and like perfect aero flight, um, and I think the best test for this, for people out there, I mean, a tuned bow and an

arrow, which means your arrows coming straight off your bow is really important for fixed broadheads to fly well and penetration. And, you know, the test I like to do is shoot a bear shaft. We can shoot through paper at, you know, 10, 12 feet or something. That's a, that's a decent test, but say shoot at 20 to 30 yards with a bear shaft and a flat shaft. And I like

to just take one of my arrows, cut the veins off. So they're, you know, eighth inch or very short. So there's no, really no vein to it. Maybe even wrap a piece of a metal duct tape on it to get the weight the same in the back, you know, within, within say five to 10 grains. So it's going to act the same and shoot those two together at, at 20 yards and then maybe 30 yards. What you'll see is for instance, I'll take my bow out of tune to test, test veins and how well they stabilize. And what I see is, um, if you're out of tune, if your arrows say tail right coming out of the bow, well, your, your fletched arrow might hit the, the bullseye because even though it's going tail

right, the veins quickly correct it and straighten it out. Well, a bear shaft doesn't get corrected. So it stays a little tail right and it'll hit left and, you know, at 40. And it'll reveal the. It'll show you that there's arrow not coming straight out of the bow. Yeah. And, you know, I was. And it'll reveal the. It'll show you that there's arrow not coming straight out of the bow.

Yeah. And you know, I was, I adjusted it till I was getting that bear shaft to hit a foot left at, you know, 40 yards. And then I was looking at different veins and different broadheads to see like which vein stabilized broadheads the best. Okay.

You know, even though I was getting a bear shaft to hit a foot over with the right veins and our, say our, our S125 broadhead, something that's relatively compact with the right veins, I could get field points and broadheads to still hit within a couple of inches at 40 yards. But the bigger, wider broadhead you have, the more unstable it is, or the more you need to correct it and then those might be hitting five six inches um well five six inches off with small veins but then if you had a taller higher profile vein i could pull those back into maybe a couple inches as well so that's another area that i'm spending more time on and i think is really important is educating people on how to get fixed blade broadheads to fly well for them.

Um, cause I think that's keeping some people, you know, shooting mechanicals because they can't get fixed heads to shoot well for them. And they've, yeah, they've made it so easy. And that's a big story that they used to sell those, right? Is that those smaller heads, they're easy to, they shoot just like your field tips, you know?

Right. If you can't get, if you can't get a relatively compact fixed blade head to shoot well for you, there's something wrong with your arrow flight. Yeah. Your bow's out of tune. Yeah. Your bow's out of tune. And even though that mechanical is, is going to hit closer to the field point and that's kind of the trade-off, you know, they're more forgiving. They're going to hit closer to field points. Your bow's still out of tune. Your bow's still out of tune. And your arrow. And it might not just, when we say bow's out of tune,

it might not just be that your bow's not pushing your arrow straight. It could also be that you have the wrong arrow. You could be underspined. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Real quick,

this is the last question. We got to wrap it up. Oh, well. That's a lot of pressure. We got to get to single bevels. When I was like researching a bunch of this FOC stuff and trying to figure out what i wanted in my arrow setup i kept running into that penetration penetration like over and over again but nobody really justified why but then i saw one article that was like well if you have a higher foc that means that you can shoot a stiffer spine

because it'll be able to like kind of break down that spine as it goes down range just like that flex in it but once it impacts that stiffer spine will have all that energy like directly behind it like so it won't like dissipate by wiggling a whole bunch once it comes in contact with the target that was the only thing that i've ever seen that i was like, okay, I think that like FOC and penetration makes a little bit of sense, but it seems like you don't think that, and I'm more inclined to defer to you there. I'm just wondering. Well, FOC, um, the thing I like about FOC and I kind of like that 12 to 16% range is it is improved stability because it, the center of mass is kind of the pivot point

when you have, let's say your arrow comes off a little bit, um, say tail low, and you've got this wind, wind across the broadhead, that's going to create a little bit of lift. And you've got this, this wind across the veins that are going to apply this restoring force and a pivot points, the center of mass. So as you move that forward, you get more, you know, you get better stability because the veins have a longer lever arm and they can correct better. I think if you take that to an extreme, if you have low FOC to where you have a bunch of mass on the back, then I can see an issue that when you impact something, that mass at the back, that arrow can act, you know, more like, more like a spring or, or if it's

not perfectly centered, that mass can pull it you know, more like, more like a spring or, or if it's not perfectly centered, that mass can pull it off to the side. Um, so I think there can be something a little bit to that, but I don't think, you know, changing that center mass point by, by a half inch or an inch, that's what we're really talking about. Has that big of an effect? Yeah. I would say more because like you, you're able to increase the spine when it hits, like you would have everything just piling up sort of behind that rather than like a low or a high flex sort of spine, like a 400 spine or something where it hits and it's going to go like a doorstop kind of before it goes in. Yeah, I think, you know, it all comes down to that, keeping the momentum in the straight line. So if you have, if your arrow is going straight at impact and you've got that more mass up front, um, it's going to be better than more mass at the back. Cause it's, I would say it's probably gonna be more likely to stay in that straight line

versus having mass at the back that might, that might take it off course a little bit. That's how I would look at it. Okay. I got three more questions. Are you playing trivia with us? If you want me to. Because there's one question. Two, how do you think you'll do?

Probably not well. He'll throw you a bone. No. I will guarantee it. He'll throw you a bone. Never throws me a bone. Not me, the guy that hosts. Spencer.

No, the host, Spencer. He'll throw you like a mechanical engineering question. Oh, I hope so. But he won't do anything like that for me. Third question is how do people find you and how do people find so they can check out? You don't advertise a whole hell of a lot. You're mostly like a word of mouth kind of thing.

We've been a lot of word of mouth. Yeah. We don't do, spend a lot on marketing. How can people find your broadheads? Spend most of the time on engineering. Yeah. But Iron Will Outfitters is our website, ironwilloutfitters.com. We're on Instagram, Facebook, things like that too.

Our YouTube channel. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. We're trying to show. I need to get on there to find out how to sharp my broadheads. You said you got a good video about it.

We do have a video on there. Yeah. And I'm going to try and do more this next year to kind of educate, you know, the science of bow hunting and try and, um, yeah, get more knowledge there. That's great. Yeah. All right.

Trying to think how you're going to do in trivia. What do you think? I can't believe you're not going to let us talk about single bevel. Okay. With Phil. You want to spend like one, like ten seconds. Sure, spend a minute on it. One minute?

Go ahead, ask your question, Yanni. No, five minutes. Okay. Talk to Phil. Phil looks irritated. I'm not even going to look at Phil right now. I wouldn't. Okay, five minutes. Okay. Talk to Phil. Phil looks irritated. I'm not even going to look at Phil right now. I wouldn't. Okay. Let's go. Let's do it. I don't know. Go ahead. What's the

question? You make both. Iron Will Outfitters make single bevel and double bevel broadheads. Yeah. Maybe just a quick rundown pros and cons. Yeah. So I don't care which, which one you want to pick. I have got, I've got a dog in both fights. So it's, it's,

um, this is just my personal, um, testing and what I've found, you know, initially like double bevel better. I feel like it's inherently a bit stronger. Um,

that combination of sharpness and strength is, is a bit higher there. Cause you have equal pressure on both sides and it's driving through something. And what I saw with single bevel, with all that pressure on one side, one bevel, you're more likely to want to bend that edge or break out that edge.

And I've seen, I have personal experience that corroborates that. And I've talked to people that shoot a lot of single bevels and that is a known thing. And nobody, because you're getting full passers a lot of times, you don't know if it's happening in the animal, if it's happening in the dirt, but you see a lot of times it's interesting too, that it's only on one of the two blades, but you have some very like extreme waviness, corruption, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, chinking or chipping out the edge or just bending.

Right. And I saw that, and that's why I was more of a double bevel guy for years. And it was really through a lot of customers asking, pushing for it, that a couple years ago I started thinking, well, I've only tested other single bevels, you know, against my broadhead that's got a better steel, better sharpness. So I really should make one the best I can and test it. And I still saw the issue when I was down at 25 degrees. And I talked to Dr. Ashby actually, got his input on single bevel designs. And he liked single bevel at 25 degrees. And I feel like some of his testing was confounded.

He had a shallower total angle as well as a single bevel. So it was a bit sharper too. But anyways, I found that a 25 degree single bevel wasn't as strong as our 19 degree per side or 38 degree total double bevel. And I had to go up to 32 degrees until I got to the point where it, um, it wasn't getting damaged on just heavy bone impact. Um, the cool thing about it is they create rotation.

So if you, as they impact that animal, let's say you, your right fletch and your arrow's rotating, right? When you hit that animal with the pressure on that bevel is going to push, want to push that bevel over. So, so let's say your top one gets pushed right and your bottom one gets pushed left and

it's going to rotate or continue that rotation through the animal. So what it does is. Does that make sense sense steve i don't know if that's good or bad why a single bevel rotates through the medium yeah i mean try if you got a single bevel knife try to cut a piece of cheese straight and you're going to drive are you saying that's a positive or negative well i've kind of felt it was a negative because it's going to take more energy. It's not going to slice through. Yeah. The path becomes longer. Right. Yeah. Right.

Um, what I, what I find is that the positives are, is that what the hole looks like, you know, the entrance hole, especially with our, so I make a single bevel with single bevel bleeders. So the bleeders have that grind on a single bevel grind on them too. And that rotation, I often get holes through the height. It looked like a square versus, um, our single bevel grind on them too. And that rotation, I often get holes through the height that look like a square versus, um, our double bevel, it's more like a, you know, a T shape or cross shape because it's just slicing

straight in. Whereas that cutting while rotating. So I think the advantages, um, are that the holes can be a bit more open and maybe a bit more trauma, you know, as it's cutting through things. I feel like the momentum, that rotational momentum of the arrow already at impact provides some of that maybe additional energy

it takes to rotate. So, you know, I shot my elk with a single bevel last year, had great, great penetration. What I'm seeing is they both penetrate really well. They both perform really well. They both breach, they both split bone really well. And that's really well. Uh, they both breach, they both split bone really well. And that's something Dr. Ashby said is that only single bevel, um, splits bone. Well, maybe it's because we are at a different energy level, but I see that they both are really pop

bone and split bone apart really kind of equally well. So performance is great. Taking the same amount of force you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar. Um, anyway, I, I think they both work well. I think is great. Taking the same amount of force you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar. Anyway, I think they both work well. I think what's more important is having hard, very sharp edges, good edge retention and being, have the blades tough enough to be able to hit bone and keep going. Thank you for that, Phil.

Thank you for giving me those extra few minutes. Oh, it's my pleasure, Jan. It's definitely my call. All right, Iron Will Outfitters. Yes. Go check out the broadheads. Check them out. I need to show you the boar who I shot through the forehead

with one of your broadheads. You might like the hole in there. Was that in self-defense? Uh-uh. Okay. No. You said it was coming back self-defense? Uh-uh. Okay. No. You said it was coming back at you. No, no, no.

He was after I shot a pig prior and that pig was raised in a ruckus and it called in the boar. I've seen that before. Yeah. Yeah. He was real worked up. He liked what he was hearing. All right, let's move on.

Let's turn it off so that I can just ask him some off air questions what's your sharpening method Phil should leave the machine on if you feel like sticking around goodnight everybody if you feel like sticking around Phil will continue to record the conversation

are you using a jig to and then on sandpaper our edges retain really well so you can shoot Are you using a jig and then on sandpaper? Yeah. Or something different? Our edges retain really well. So you can shoot.

If you shoot 10 times in a target, I can't even measure a different stone. Really? Yeah. A lot of times, too. Target shooting with an ammo. I'll just take a white stone. I stole a white can. It's not shooting. Sure.

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