The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 399: The Kingpin Antler Dealer

Episode Date: December 26, 2022

Steven Rinella talks with Tony Schaufler, Jamie Schaufler, Janis Putelis, Brody Henderson, Phil Taylor, and Corinne Schneider. Topics include: Steve's Instagram picture of a shipping container full of... antlers; PA antler restrictions; did mountain men bait?; expropriation of land and being a good neighbor; the potential medicinal value of consuming paper thin antler slices; making a living picking antlers; the dog chew market; fake antler chandeliers; a Texan named Mike; profit margins; "trophy" sheds; antler poaching sting ops; how to reach Tony; and more. Connect with Steve and MeatEater Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop MeatEater Merch See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript
Discussion (0)
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Starting point is 00:00:37 without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. Welcome to the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. Presented by First Light, creating proven, versatile hunting apparel from merino base layers to technical outerwear for every hunt.
Starting point is 00:01:21 First Light. Go farther, stay longer. Alright, we're joined today by an extraordinarily controversial guest. Thanks. By his own admission. Who's left open the idea that he might be a bad guy. Who's here only under duress.
Starting point is 00:01:43 Who wasn't going to do the show until he until he got to read an instagram comments you're the first you're the first and only guest we've ever had it came on um inspired by instagram comments well i wasn't my wife was inspired by it she read the comments and she goes you have to do it because i'm a non-controversial kind of a guy. I don't like controversy. Yeah, I can picture that. Because you didn't even have Instagram.
Starting point is 00:02:10 No. I did, but I just didn't ever use it. That's a good way to avoid controversy. But I did figure out how to get on it. You did? And I did follow you. Oh, awesome. I think I follow you and Joe Rogan.
Starting point is 00:02:28 You don't follow Yanni? Not yet i will what's your handle what's that oh like yeah how do people find on instagram i think it's tony.schoffler okay corinne explain what happened on instagram people are so titillated now i don't know if we can keep leading them along without them knowing what's going on. You know what I mean? Like people are on, they're like on the edge of their seat. Well, what date was this?
Starting point is 00:02:52 Probably. Pull that mic down, Corinne. Two, over two months ago, Steve put up a post, 45,300 pounds of elk antlers loaded up by a buyer. Whoa.
Starting point is 00:03:04 What? Listen, explain what's in thelers loaded up by a buyer. Whoa. What? Listen. Explain what's in the picture. And then read the caption. It's an image of a ginormous shipping container on a huge truck. And the doors are open. And the only thing you see kind of packed from left to right to from ground to ceiling is just antlers. And a couple of guys unpacking.
Starting point is 00:03:34 Like hand-packed. Hand-packed sheds. Hand-packed into a shipping container. Like you wouldn't fit a mouse in that shipping container. Yeah, uh-uh. Packed to the gills. Full of elk antler. Full of elk antler. 45,300 pounds to be exact. And then now read the caption. And I put this up
Starting point is 00:03:55 at Steven Rinella, if you're curious. S-T-E-V-E-N Rinella. Yep. 45,300 pounds of elk antler is loaded up by a buyer and headed to overseas markets. This year, shed hunters were getting around $20 a pound for the fresh brown elk antlers. This buyer told me that the average weight of an antler he buys is five pounds, but they get up to 20 pounds a piece. So do the math. Did I say 20? No, but I did some. I was 20? No, but I did some,
Starting point is 00:04:26 I was curious about it, and I did some research, and I bet you the ones you're holding in that Bozeman Chronicle picture are 20 pounders. No, they weren't. What? They were probably... 19.5? No, they were probably in the 15 pound range. Really?
Starting point is 00:04:41 I think the largest single shed we've ever bought off a wild elk was about 21 pounds. There you go. See, I underwent. Out of millions and millions of pounds. $400. And then also the price was
Starting point is 00:04:57 up to, I said, up to $20. Okay. Listen, man, I was consulting with you while crafting my caption, but I apparently left off when I threw out the poundage thing. Alright, so
Starting point is 00:05:13 you know, minor inaccuracies notwithstanding, I put that on Instagram because I met our guest here, Tony, from Rocky Mountain Antler. Is that it? Just Rocky, Tony, from Rocky Mountain Antler. Is that it? Just Rocky Mountain Antler?
Starting point is 00:05:28 Rocky Mountain Antler Company, LLC. Okay. I met Tony Shoffler from Rocky Mountain Antler Company, LLC, up in Alaska. We had a brief meeting, a brief running into each other, in which I found out what his business was. And I said, man, you ought to come on the podcast. And eventually, in our conversation about him coming on the podcast, he sent me this picture.
Starting point is 00:05:52 And I thought, well, that's interesting as hell. And I put the picture up on Instagram. And in the comments section, holy cow. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Hundreds. Just people. and hundreds. Hundreds. Or 400. Just people. Comments.
Starting point is 00:06:07 Just. How would you typify the comments? I mean, the range from people being interested, people being amazed at the number of antlers people criticizing uh the chinese antler market people people talking about the you know just what they're used for and how it's nuts i mean i i would i don't think there was any one kind of overwhelming drawing drawing parallels between that and the commercial slaughter of animals from the early 20th century. Just a whole range of things. I don't get it. I thought the normal comment would be, damn, that's a lot of antlers.
Starting point is 00:06:55 Yeah, like this one guy wrote, so you're saying that that's just under a million dollars in antlers? Holy F, I'm in the wrong business. So you had plenty of those comments. That's what I thought. Please let me explain. That shipment was nowhere near a million dollars. That was the lowest grade antler that you can
Starting point is 00:07:13 buy and it's only worth a couple of dollars a pound. Okay, we're going to get it all out. I just wanted to set the scene. Oh, okay. Sorry. Oh, no, no, no. You're doing great. Jamie, are you here to talk or not here to talk? No, she's here for the BS filter for me so I don't get too carried away with my story. How long have you guys been married?
Starting point is 00:07:34 29 almost. 29. Years. Oh. Yeah. Not months. I know quite a bit. You guys have been married 29 years.
Starting point is 00:07:44 Yeah. That's fantastic. Can each of you hit us with what's the secret to 29 years of marriage? Yeah. Mine is you get up in the morning and you look at your wife and you go, honey, I'm sorry. Because sooner or later during the day, it's going gonna happen and just get it out of the way right off the bat just honey i'm sorry no i'm trying that tomorrow morning i'm a little overdue on that right now what uh what do you got you got anything hot you got any hot even though you're
Starting point is 00:08:20 not here to you're not here to talk you, your wife would probably say the same thing. Patience and a strong backbone. Hmm. I don't know if that's what she'd say. I'll have to ask her. Well, if you're... 29 years is great, man. Yeah. But it's also, she puts up with a lot of me not being around.
Starting point is 00:08:42 You're on the road a lot. You know, if you do this full time, you know, so. Yeah, the antler business came between us. But it didn't. How long have you been married, Brody? What year is it? 16?
Starting point is 00:09:03 Yeah, 16. Well, you got a good shot at making it. Oh, I've made it, man. It's like that 12-year itch. If you can get past that, I think you're on the right track. I got no worries. You get itchy at 12? All right, we got to move along.
Starting point is 00:09:23 Here's something real. Okay. I'm going to go down to the thing i think is most interesting check this out a guy writes in a guy writes in oh hold on oh this didn't happen to him it happened to his friend still damn it now you get into the whole like right exactly there's a hearsay element damn it like unreliable I noticed that before I thought it happened to him but you must have been really excited about this titillating story that you're about to tell us this story is a great story okay so everyone bear in mind this is something that happened to a friend of his. So, you know,
Starting point is 00:10:07 who knows? Okay. Pennsylvania. Set the scene. We're in Pennsylvania. Do you want me to set the scene? No, I'm just saying that we're in Pennsylvania. Oh my god. How did I not notice this?
Starting point is 00:10:28 It's his friend's brother. This is like when you go to a thing and some guy comes up he's like look at this buck that my neighbor's cousin's brother's brother-in-law's neighbor got that's why i'm not i'm not like there's an unreliable narrator element to this like i don't know i Well, don't, because it still is interesting. It is. Okay, so listen. I'm just going to act like it happened to me. I was just hunting in Pennsylvania and here's what happened to me. This is great.
Starting point is 00:10:56 They're in a... Okay. Whoever the hell it was, it's an antler... I believe every word of it. Because it's like, who would make it up? They're in an antler restriction area in Pennsylvania. Well, the whole state's antlers. It used to be not that way, and it switched to antler restrictions, I don't know, 10 years ago.
Starting point is 00:11:15 The whole state. No. Yes. When I was a kid, you could shoot spike bucks. The whole state's antler restriction. Yeah. The whole state's. That's not true.
Starting point is 00:11:24 Listen, it is. I was just hunting there with my musket. Yeah. And most of the state is three points. No. Okay. Listen. Steve's wrong.
Starting point is 00:11:38 No, I'm not. Most of the state is three points. It could be brow tine and a fork. The northwestern part of the state where I grew up has to be three up, meaning a brow time would, like, it doesn't have to have a brow time, but it's got to have three up. So main beam, G1, or it would be G2, G3. Steve, who are you calling?
Starting point is 00:12:05 Seth. Oh, he's like on his way to South Dakota. So I was buying this pile of antlers off this guy. Uh-huh. Which guy? Oh, hang tight. Prior to 2002, antler restriction was two points. It had to be a spike.
Starting point is 00:12:29 So that's when they went to statewide antler restrictions. That's not accurate. Bear with me a minute, Phil. Why aren't all these people answering their phone? If you had shot a spike with your musket, you'd been breaking the law. Rick. Yeah, hey Steve. Hey. Is the entire state
Starting point is 00:12:51 of Pennsylvania an antler restriction unit? Yeah, yeah, so like the entire state. Oh, I can't hear you. Alright, hold on, say it again? Rick, you're on the air. The entire state, Seth, correct me if I say this wrong. Oh, you're with Seth.
Starting point is 00:13:10 I'm with him. He was trying to answer, but the entire state of Pennsylvania is a, for people 16 and older, is a three-point on one side restriction. But there used to be at least a certain part up near Warren County near Erie. Where I grew up. The entire state, if you're over 16, you cannot shoot. It has to have three legal points on one side. Yes. That's also verifying and agreeing with that.
Starting point is 00:13:37 Okay, but why when we were hunting did no one mention this to me? Man, I wish this would have been a trivia question. I don't have information that we did it. I feel like we did, maybe. I could have shouted Forky. He'd be in the pokey right
Starting point is 00:13:54 now. Seth, did you tell Steve about the three-point rule before he did the slumlock? Yeah, Seth's saying he's telling him they're on the podcast right now. I gotta go. You guys definitely didn't mention
Starting point is 00:14:10 that shit and you put me in like legal jeopardy. So, listen. Anyway, that sets this whole thing up. Okay, but it does set this whole thing up. This guy's hunting in Pennsylvania. He's in,'s in there is a rule that you have the buck has to have three
Starting point is 00:14:29 points on one side where they're hunting. It has to have three points on one side not counting the brow time. They call that three up in Pennsylvania. Not counting the brow time. You hear? So, since wh. Not counting the brow time. You hear?
Starting point is 00:14:46 So, since whitetails throw a brow time, like 99.99, this is the ball part, of whitetails throw a brow time. So, he's saying, to be legal, it's by an eastern count, needs to be an 8-point, right? So when you remove the brow tines, he's got three on each side. He's got to have three on one side, not counting the brow tine. Now this guy shoots a buck with no brow tine. Missing its brow tine. But has three tines. He gets sighted by an officer.
Starting point is 00:15:32 The officer's view on it is that since there is no brow tine, his definition is the next up antler becomes a brow tine. Like imagine you have a line of people and the first person in the line the person in front of the line is eliminated then number two is all of a sudden number one that's his claim i took this to heffelfinger heffelfinger is like a brow time is a brow time
Starting point is 00:15:58 the absence of a brow time does not promote the next antler to a brow time like a brow time is a very definitional point. If it doesn't have it, it doesn't have it. But that doesn't mean his buddy down the line becomes him. But if you were scoring it, it's not like if he doesn't have a brow time, then all of a sudden the G2 would become the G1. That wouldn't happen. Right.
Starting point is 00:16:21 But under the law, it doesn't matter. If it's got three points up, it's a legal buck. Allow me to, allow me to, Heffelfinger dissected the law. Okay. Assuming this is all described accurately. See, that's classic Heffelfinger. Like, he already knows, right? He already knows the layout, assuming it's described accurately.
Starting point is 00:16:47 That sounds like a mess. So to quote, I'm reading something. Assuming this is all described accurately, that sounds like a mess, but I'm not sure this email is describing it correctly. Or the LEO is wrong, law enforcement officer. The law, linked below, says that it has to be three points on a side not including the brow tine in a few units. And just three or more points anywhere
Starting point is 00:17:13 on the antler in the rest of the state. That's correct. Okay. The deer this person describes would be legal everywhere. So I don't understand the issue. The law below doesn't classify a G2 as a browtine. It just helps people understand what a browtine is by saying it's the one right above the burr. I would not read that to mean that if it doesn't have a browtine, then you count the G2 as a
Starting point is 00:17:39 browtine. It just means that you can't count the brow tine as one of your three points in those few counties where it is more restricted. That's correct. If an officer is counting this deer's G2 as the brow tine and then saying the deer is illegal because it only has two more, then that is clearly a misinterpretation of the law, in my opinion, as an Arizona guy with no law enforcement experience. There are a few scientific papers out there that define terms for the tines of all servants that I would trot out in a court case to show that is an incorrect interpretation. A G2 is never a brow tine. If the brow tine is missing, then the deer just doesn't have a brow tine. And the G2 is still the G2.
Starting point is 00:18:30 So they need to go get that guy out of jail. I have a hard, I'm not saying this guy's a liar. I have a hard time believing that a Pennsylvania game warden would not have a good understanding of this law. It's been around for a while. Like, I have a hard time buying it. That is, like, because it would be happening all the time. Like, every six-pointer that got shot that didn't have a brow time would be, like. But they all got brow times.
Starting point is 00:19:00 Not those little basket rat sixes. A lot of them don't. I got a hard time. Another guy wrote in. Another guy wrote in. And it was a guy. His name was Joe. Tony, if you have anything to weigh in on any of these, please.
Starting point is 00:19:17 Do. Thank you. Okay. You're welcome. There's a lot of talk about antlers. Well, I think that's why, you know, I think that, you know, old Corinne over there,
Starting point is 00:19:30 I think that's why I should probably threw that in there. I should have probably brushed up on my Pennsylvania game laws. Here's this one. It has nothing to do with antlers. Guy wrote in, and he's got an interesting point.
Starting point is 00:19:51 Your coverage of lead pollution issues so our coverage of the lead the lead debate which that's how i'd describe the coverage um has been great he says but i wish you would also mention a less serious but still annoying ammo pollution issue plastic shotgun wads i am a san francisco based hunter he there's a parenthetical he puts in says yes we exist and fishermen i love up this is him i love upland and waterfowl shotgun hunting as well as surf fishing the ocean many times while fishing the beach i have come across plastic shotgun wads including some marked six which is mostly used for upland hunting in California. It disturbs me that shotgun hunting involves littering plastic in the form of a wad with every shot. Nobody is seriously expecting to retrieve their wads. On principle, we should oppose this littering, especially given all of the new research on microplastics.
Starting point is 00:20:44 Additionally, the concern about giving hunters a bad name is especially salient here in California. Surf fishermen have allied with groups like the Surfrider Foundation to fight important battles for public access to beaches. Surfrider is also, in my opinion rightly, concerned about plastic pollution at beaches and successfully pushed through a plastic straw ban as a result. I'd believe hunters would be well served by understanding the wad problem and proactively working with potential partners to try to solve it rather than risking becoming their next target.
Starting point is 00:21:21 Shotguns worked well with cardboard wads before plastic was even invented and modern biodegradable materials offer even more options there's no reason today why shotgun hunters need to live right to litter every time they pull the trigger great point huh it is but ammo makers gotta decide whether they can afford to do well paper why i mean wads do a lot more now wads do a lot more now than what they like originally a wad was just a barrier between the shot and a barrier between the powder and the shot the wadding in a musket would be, it would help form a grip in the rifling, right? With
Starting point is 00:22:09 shotgun, if you didn't have wadding there, I think that you would every time you tip the gun, your powder would go filter into the your powder would filter into the shot and also nothing would really carry the shot out. But now wadding grips the shot.
Starting point is 00:22:26 Controls the pattern. Carries, like actually carries it a little ways before the fins, as the fins open up, it slows down. But like, like contains the shot. But I don't know. If someone told me that in 10 years someone was going to be making some of that shit out of cornstarch that like that you throw in your composter and and it rains a couple times and vanishes i wouldn't be surprised by that yeah yeah i mean i think obviously it's a litter problem but a bigger litter problem might be the jerks that don't pick up their shells off the ground yeah but that's easy yeah well that's avoidable yeah and this is hard you like you can't find them that's good it's a good point it's an interesting point to think about i do now and then look and be like damn a lot of wads
Starting point is 00:23:08 laying around everywhere do you ever get your hands on any uh cardboard shells back when they you know the old shotgun shells i remember those yeah yeah coating wax back yeah i was reading about the guy that killed uh i was reading about the guy that killed Jesse James. He took a bunch of pipe and cut the pipe in, I think this is true. I read it. Might not be true. He took a bunch of pipe and cut the pipe in little short chunks and then took a chisel and knocked those chunks into little like picture that you had a wedding ring okay and then you took and laid that wedding ring flat on the ground and took a chisel and
Starting point is 00:23:51 started busting it to pieces straight down anyways filled a big double barrel coach gun full of that that'll do the trick cut them in half pretty much i don't think that's true did mountain man bait here's a question that came in from long island a lot of emails from low representation um emails from very low representation states hunter hunter representation did you know the answer did you have to uh look look into this a little bit i know the answer you did you have to look into this a little bit? I know the answer. You did. I'm not interested in the question.
Starting point is 00:24:29 I'm not interested in the particulars. I'm not interested in the actual answer. I'm just interested in the mentality of the question. Oh, I'm interested in the answer. Did mountain men bait hay-meater to crew? My name's Paul, and I'm from Long Island. I'm a longtime fan, and I had an interesting question for the meat eater gang to discuss on the podcast. I was reading a comment section on baiting for wild game, deer, bear, etc. And I was wondering what the meat eater crew knows about how the mountain men hunted and trapped and whether or not it ever involved baiting on a large scale.
Starting point is 00:25:01 This came to mind because a lot of hunters question the integrity legitimacy of harvests that are a result of baiting however praise the methods or ways used by mountain men of decades centuries ago i think this is an interesting and potentially divisive subject. Okay, let me set the great question. First off, I'm going to establish, I want to establish, when people say a mountain man, what are they saying? You, okay, a mountain man means a very specific thing. You could watch a show called The Mountain Man and that's not mountain men.
Starting point is 00:25:46 That's a contemporary thing called mountain men. But when we talk about mountain men historically, we're talking about a very specific thing from a very specific time frame. These were probably the most well traveled individuals of their time.
Starting point is 00:26:04 Probably the least xenophobic individuals of their time and the greatest risk takers of their time if you wanted to do something like today like the mountain men did then you would go like during the Afghanistan war you would have gone to the mountain ranges that separate Afghanistan and Pakistan and gone in that atmosphere and try to go become a professional hunter in those mountains at that time. The Mountain Man era began the minute the Lewis and Clark expedition ended. So it sort of begins with John Coulter's return out to the west trapping beaver and it ends about 1832 when the beaver market collapsed so we're talking about a mountain man we're talking about like professional beaver trappers who operated in the inner mountain west between
Starting point is 00:26:58 about i mean really like it heated up like 1810 to 1832. Did they bait? Yep. The only... The way they trapped, they didn't use conner bears, they only used footholds, and it seems like they almost exclusively used caster sets.
Starting point is 00:27:20 Caster mound sets using foothold traps. So every... All the beavers, all the mountain men caught were probably caught with bait. Lure. Not bait. And I'm sure they were savvy enough to put some fresh peeled willow or aspen to supplement their sets in the fall season.
Starting point is 00:27:36 But they were using lure. For hunting big game, no, I can't picture it. They didn't do side hustles with other kind of fur? Not during that period. No fur not during that period no not during that period now when the beaver market collapsed those guys many of those guys then got into very serious baiting like a lot of them became wolfers like the wolfers followed the beaver market well the wolfers kind of came like the real serious wolfers came the beaver market collapsed
Starting point is 00:28:05 in 32 then you had the hide hunting era the buffalo hide hunting area that kind of came on its heels what came on the heels of that was the wolfer market and they baited where they would kill an animal kill a buffalo whatever gash it all over pour strychnine on it, wait a couple days, come back to your strychnine carcass, and pick up poisoned wolves. So that was bait. They would take another way that guys would, for doing grizzlies, either for bounty money later on, or otherwise, you'd take a mule out to a good spot, shoot the mule, hunt the mule, and shoot the can of the mule. So yeah, big time baiting.
Starting point is 00:28:48 A lot of the guys that were commercial bear guys trapped. And they're baiting with traps. I don't know that that's where I would look to find if I was going to defend baiting today, I don't know that that's where I would look. Any thoughts? Here's a good one. You guys good?
Starting point is 00:29:18 There's just not enough to compare, I don't think. It's just not the type of hunting that we do today. Like commercial market hunting. This is a good one. I don't think we're going to be done. This is the last one that we're going to get into the antler market.
Starting point is 00:29:36 Corinne? This guy writes in from Nova Scotia. I live in Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia. This is a real... You thought the antler thing in Pennsylvania was interesting, Phil. Wait till you hear this. I really hope it involves you being embarrassed live on the air.
Starting point is 00:29:58 I live in Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia. You following? You tracking, Phil? Got it. I bought a six to seven acre it's weird he doesn't know how big his parcel is he bought a six to seven acre piece of land in 2015 moving back to my hometown of london england what's that mean from london england oh from oh okay so he was living in london england oh from oh okay so he was living in london
Starting point is 00:30:30 okay feller from london this is someone this is like really far out for us i thought i thought long island was like so here's a guy from london of all places big hunting town moves yeah you want to talk about low representation moves to nova scotia buys six to seven acres piece of land in 2015 the appeal of the land he goes down to say it was a dock on the ocean sidewalk into town, house to raise kids, and land to hunt whitetails out back. There's only about a one-acre piece at the back where I can discharge a crossbow. Okay?
Starting point is 00:31:22 Buys a land. He's got a legal place. He can discharge his crossbow on an acre of land now they're coming to do eminent domain across his property in order here's where the rub is in order to put in a power corridor to serve a new solar plant so he's in the admittedly awkward position of being a nimby about alternative energy like it's better if it's like a real villain right like but it'd have to be a solar energy like a thing that everyone's supposed to support because because it's green energy, and now he's got to be a NIMBY. I'd like to know why he can only
Starting point is 00:32:07 discharge on an acre. Like, is the rest within town limits or something? You know, have you gone to his website, solarsham.ca? No, I have not. Did you go, Corinne? Why are you not, I think you need to research the piss out of this, Corinne. You didn't call him?
Starting point is 00:32:24 No, I didn't call him. Why didn't you call him? So let me get to the rub. So expropriation is their Canadian version of eminent domain. He's going on to say, we have a concept of injurious affection, which are personal damages and the reduction in value of the rest of my residential property do he's claiming okay let me back up here's what he's claiming they're claiming here's the land value
Starting point is 00:32:53 for us running our power experience of hunting he's like well no no you're not you're not value you're not valuing it right because what you've just done is destroyed my ability to like hunt deer on my place how are we gonna draw how are we gonna value that you're not valuing that i had a little mini chunk of hunting ground and you're destroying it and then you're telling me its value is one thing when the value is exponentially greater because of the circumstance my sidebar question would be if he discharges his crossbow and his little one acre piece and that said deer runs off that one acre piece and dies yeah what then what oh that's that this is the thing i've been arguing about with not arguing about texting about with my buddy doug durin where they have some of these public access programs
Starting point is 00:33:51 and he was pointing out to me that some of these public access pro like public access and private land programs are making deals on on like 10 acre parcels and guys are bow hunting it and the amount of conflict that arises it's like how are you anticipating that you're going to bow hunt whitetails on that size piece of ground and have it be that it's dead on the ground like you're asking yeah and then you've got all those that urban deer hunting that's happening now too yeah but i feel like back you you know, anything east of the Mississippi, hunting whitetails on a 10-acre chunk is very normal.
Starting point is 00:34:32 I know. 10 acres. It's tight. The right 10 acres, like in Indiana. Sure. There's a lot going on in 10 acres. No, no, no. You're not listening to what I'm saying.
Starting point is 00:34:41 No, I am. I'm not talking about what's going on or not going on. I'm saying there is a high flight risk. There's a high risk. 100%. Okay. For instance, Carl, I'm not going to say his last name, but Carl has a very small parcel. You know what Carl did before he ever put a tree stand up?
Starting point is 00:34:58 Went and talked to his neighbors. Every single one of them said, I'm not planning on, I'm not hoping this happens, but I'm laying the groundwork for the fact that I might have to come pay you a visit and here's why. And he secured an okay under those circumstances ahead of time from everyone around him. Good neighbors. That was Duren's point. Duren's point wasn't not to do it. Duren's point was so many problems could be taken care of if people were just a little more neighborly. That was his point. Dern's point wasn't not to do it. Dern's point was so many problems could be taken care of if
Starting point is 00:35:25 people were just a little more neighborly. That was his point. Agreed. Be a good neighbor. He told me about someone that got a deer this year that was literally hung up in the neighbor's fence. Okay.
Starting point is 00:35:48 Ready? Yeah. How, like, okay. How, how'd you get into, how'd you get into antler picking?
Starting point is 00:35:54 What do you, what do you like to call it? Shed hunting? Antler picking the antler market? Yeah. Shed hunting. Cause you're a third, you're a second generation shed hunter.
Starting point is 00:36:03 Second generation, um, working on possibly third with Sam coming up. That's your boy. Yeah. Well, my dad was probably the first, I'd say, large-scale commercial buyer in the United States way before it was cool. Hmm. How did that come about?
Starting point is 00:36:21 Like, what years was that going on? Mid-70s? Late 70s? He started buying antlers. Yeah. Well, he used to pick them up back then. And he'd only pick up the big brown ones. And he was selling them to...
Starting point is 00:36:42 There was a... I don't know how to say this, like an Asian buyer, middleman in the States were buying antlers. How would you say that, Corinne? That was quite fine. You like that? The reason I say that is, is I can't remember if it was a Chinese or Korean at the time. Sure. And there are different Asian folks who believe that antlers have medicinal value.
Starting point is 00:37:13 So, yeah, that was totally appropriate. So anyways, he was selling them to these buyers and he was tired of them taking advantage. They were. taking advantage they were he i mean he felt he so presumably he felt he was selling them for a lot less than their actual value yeah and then the there would be two or three of them there and that one would be throwing the antlers over the truck into the bushes before they weighed them you know they just weren't scrupulous, yeah. What state was this going on in? I think, I don't know where the buyers were, but it was in the Montana area. Okay.
Starting point is 00:37:55 And he got tired of that. So he went and convinced the local bank to bankroll them and so he started buying and going around the middleman straight to the overseas market and it kind of just snowballed from there who was who was he who did he go to to find a direct market for his antlers and what were they using them for back then they were using them for medicinal purposes i guess uh they grind them right no they were slicing them and wafer thin and simmering them in a tea and i'm sure they were probably mixing ginseng and some other herbs in there and drinking the broth really yeah have you done this corinne no never. But there's a picture of that, the like really paper thin slices that I put into the document
Starting point is 00:38:48 just for you to see. You know, there's some serious, serious. I just did some screen grabs from Amazon, right? So I went down the rabbit hole looking at all the different forms that you can consume. But that's velvet. It could be velvet and below is just the slices. down the rabbit hole looking at all the different forms that you can consume. But that's velvet. That's velvet. It could be velvet, and below is just the slices. Okay, so there's two products here that Corinne pulled off Amazon.
Starting point is 00:39:13 One of them has four ratings. Five-star review, four ratings. Elk Velvet Antler. But I think that's from Farm Raised. Yeah, and they're calling it. It is. that's from like farm raised. Yeah, they're calling it. It is. It's from elk farm. They're calling it velvet antler for dogs.
Starting point is 00:39:33 Glucosamine supplement, hip and joint health. Glucosamine. Yeah, I was going to say I'm not real. Oh, really? Learned it on certain, but I'm pretty sure it's glucosamine. Jamie just said that Tony knows. It's Luron. Well, no, I don't. I'm certain, but I'm pretty sure it's glucosamine. Jamie just said that Tony knows. It's LuRum. Well, no, I'm not seeing.
Starting point is 00:39:49 I obviously can't. Oh, here. Sorry, Tony. So, yeah, she'll pass over. Another product that Corinne pulled up, two ratings, three-star review. Oh, that little bottle is, that little bottle, how many ounces is that bottle, Corinne? Oh, I can't see right now. So, they're touting it.
Starting point is 00:40:07 I don't know. Is it like a four ounce bottle? I don't know how big that bottle is. They're touting it as a joint health anti-inflammatory, increased energy and a healthy coat for your pet. And then there's another product that she has here that Corinne pulled up from Ginseng
Starting point is 00:40:24 Store and More Deer Antler Slices. Premium whole that she has here that crim pulled up from ginseng store and more deer antler slices premium whole seca deer antler slices energy hormones here's the description this is a this is from a esa this is from an english as a second language individual, I believe. That's exactly right. Deer, antler slices, antler velvet, hole slices, seek a deer antler, loo wrong. Energy, hormones, sex. Health for men and women. I got a question for you. Back then.
Starting point is 00:40:58 Are we in the middle of a question? Well, we already talked. I think that's pretty self. I want to go back to his dad. Also, a beautiful place. Oh, no, I'm not even... Yeah, go ahead. I'm not even scratching the surface on his old name.
Starting point is 00:41:09 Remind me, though, I've got a story about that for you. Okay. Can't wait. Back then, that was the only market. He wasn't perhaps selling big antlers to taxidermists or none of that stuff that's going on now. There was always a market for a few belt buckles and some knife handles, but no, the majority of it was going straight over suits. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes.
Starting point is 00:41:52 And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew! Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a
Starting point is 00:42:13 fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24k topo maps, waypoints and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast.
Starting point is 00:42:34 Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all.
Starting point is 00:43:19 Was your old man, was he always looking for ways to make money outdoors? Like, was he a fur trapper or like a mushroom hunter? He trapped he originally moved to the madison valley to for the lion hunting okay so yeah and he trapped he processed wild game yeah just so he just pulled it together from the outdoors so it's natural for him to be like hey there's money to be made in antlers or i could find a way to make money antlers and get into antlers yeah when did he establish your guy's company he went and he incorporated probably in the early 80s okay and when you were when were you born before then i was born yeah anyways i moved up to mont to Montana from San Diego when I was 15, and that's when I got kind of.
Starting point is 00:44:10 What were you doing in San Diego? Living with my mom. Oh. Yeah, so I came up here. So your mom and dad, I don't want to open old wounds here. Well, no, I mean, no, they divorced when I was young. And your mom hauled you off to San Diego? Well, no, my dad was down there and then he moved up oh i see and then uh anyways i came up to visit and saw that you could carry guns in the truck and get away with it uh-huh
Starting point is 00:44:37 you know and i'm like i'm in yeah so and then I got started. He was already buying and selling then, and I just kind of started helping out after school and on the weekends and then started doing it full time probably. 17 years old. 85-ish is when I started actually traveling on the road buying. And back then, it wasn't like it is now uh a lot of people brought their stuff in and i just buy antlers all day long at the shop and people just stop by all day long with piles of antlers uh-huh but then i did start traveling and meeting buyers so was it like very seasonal, like all in the spring? It used to be very seasonal. Basically, it started in early April,
Starting point is 00:45:32 and then by July you were done with the buying. But now with the antler market being so competitive and so many people involved, now it, it's a year round thing. So talk to, talk to me about when you got started, what was, you had a shop in the Madison Valley. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:45:55 And you had a sign out that said, I buy antlers, we buy antlers or some such. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And people are bringing in what all kind of antlers? Mainly deer and elk.
Starting point is 00:46:07 Okay. And how are you valuing, before the antler market exploded and there became all these multiple competing things like dog chews and all this other aphrodisiacs, all this shit. Yeah, there's no aphrodisiacs involved. I'll say that. That's a myth. That's a myth. If it was an aphrodisiac,
Starting point is 00:46:26 I'd be in prison because I snored enough of this dust during the course of a day to kill the average mortal. But what are they harvesting? Yanni, in New Zealand, what are they harvesting
Starting point is 00:46:35 all that velvet for? Supplements. Oh, it is. Well, this ad right here says it helps sex. Energy, hormones, sex. The velvet thing's, hormones, sex. The velvet thing's like different, man.
Starting point is 00:46:51 It was like all over the news a couple years ago. Like that's the set. I think the hormone thing is tied to the velvet. There is testosterone in there to a certain degree, but it's not a sexual enhancement that I'm aware of. And you'd know? Well, you would think, right? Yeah, like you'd get done with a day of antler cutting. But look, I did some research. Honey, here I come.
Starting point is 00:47:18 There's some scientific journal articles out there that are testing the antler Core beyond just the the velvet as well. So I mean from from a from an a single article From science direct there some conclusions that the deer antler base has emerged as a good source of traditional medicine Oh Sorry, let me back up antler base has emerged as a good source of traditional medicine. Oh, sorry. Let me back up.
Starting point is 00:47:49 Key findings, both in vitro and in vivo pharmacological studies have demonstrated that deer antler base possess immunodulatory, anti-cancer, anti-fatigue, anti-osteoporosis, anti-inflammatory, analgesic, antibacterial, antiviral, anti-stress, antioxidant. You get the picture. There are like 12 more antis. And although the mechanism of action is still not clear, the pharmacological activities could be mainly attributed to the major bioactive compounds amino acids polypeptides and proteins uh based on animal studies and clinical trials
Starting point is 00:48:31 deer antler base causes no severe side effects so this is just one uh research studies key findings uh do you know you do you know um when you're talking about the early buyers do you know this you must notice because this is a quote from you this fella johnny wang as being uh an early like godfather of antler shipping basically yeah yeah so you eventually got to go you eventually went into competition with him, I'm assuming. Kind of. He was, I met him when I first got going and he was going down to that antler auction, but he was buying antlers. But then he kind of faded away.
Starting point is 00:49:22 And my dad kind of took over that godfather role. When you guys. He was, my dad was the buyer for years. And most of the people that compete against him were actually buyers for us at that time. So he created his own competition, which is human nature. How would you guys, how would you guys get, how would you guys create a buyer mark, a buyer network around the country? You just touch base with people and they find you, they find me. And you got to establish a relationship with them and deem them trustworthy because there's a lot of money involved. And we have been stung before.
Starting point is 00:50:07 Do you bankroll your buyers? Most of them. You do? Yeah. So you got to be, you know, real careful. How many buyers work for you buying antlers? I'd say a good, at least 10. Okay.
Starting point is 00:50:34 And in what, what geographical area? Mostly the Rocky Mountains. And I do have some buyers out in the Midwest. I'm establishing some contacts out there. For whitetail antlers? Yeah. What are those being used for? The same.
Starting point is 00:50:53 So it goes for the same stuff? Yeah. Yeah, there's a heck of a lot more whitetail deer. And although their antlers are smaller than elk, I would think that overall there would be generally a more mass of whitetail antlers in this country than there are elk antlers, right? There are, uh, probably pounds and pieces. Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:51:14 Whitetails are almost coast to coast now, I think. Mm-hmm. You know, when I first started hunting in Montana, back when you were in diapers, probably, maybe, you didn't see whitetails hardly at all on the river bottoms. First deer I ever shot with a bow was a mule deer buck on the river. Mm-hmm.
Starting point is 00:51:37 And now, you know. Yeah. They're taking over the world, man. Yeah. When you say you've been stung before, is that like you've ended up with antlers from someone that got them? No. Meaning you send money to buyers and they don't give you antlers back. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:51:58 Or they sell them to your competition. Yeah. I was wondering if you ended up with antlers that that person shouldn't have had in the first place. No. Tell me what's antler worth right now. Right now the market's down. It's soft. Relative to what?
Starting point is 00:52:17 Relative to when, I guess. To the springtime, the shed season. It usually strengthens up then. Oh, so it's on a seasonal slump right now yeah right basically you know everybody's pretty well i guess you got to go out in three months and you got to buy your whole year's inventory in three months and when most people get full up then they back off so are you when you when you set out to buy antler in the spring are you trying to fill up you're trying to fill a specific order are you just trying to buy
Starting point is 00:52:50 as much as no you got a night yeah basically now you're trying to buy all you can because there is a lot of competition now there's buyers everywhere you know i'll go in states and literally see three different antler buyers sitting on a street in three different towns in a 30 mile radius. So, yeah, you got to really hustle now. You see ads for it in the paper all the time, like in classifieds. Yeah. Craigslist. Billboards.
Starting point is 00:53:23 Billboards. Have you ever done one of those billboards? No. Oh, really? I don't advertise very much. I run under the radar. I don't drive with trailers. Don't have big brands on it.
Starting point is 00:53:36 My name and phone number. People find you. They know who you are. They'll find you. Word of mouth. So what is Antler going for? Tell me like white tails, mule deer, elk, moose. Like what are we talking about?
Starting point is 00:53:52 What could a seller. Right now. Right now. No, no, no, no. Okay. Whenever the hell. When's peak? Well, it depends. Let's go to March.
Starting point is 00:53:59 Last March. March 2022. Or April 2022. Whatever the hell month makes the most sense. Well, last year, the price went down in the winter and then late winter, early, early spring, people start running out and then they'll go out and buy and then that'll bring the price up. Because what happens is rather than just going out and hustling and buying the antlers people try to outbid you by 50 cents a pound and all that does is bring the market up you know you can go out and pay you can go out on the street and buy antlers and pay less than the going rate and you're still
Starting point is 00:54:37 going to buy antlers just by being there but you know that's what happens and when the demand like right now in the last couple of years the demand exceeds the supply and that drives the price up. Okay. To? Right now, right now, it's probably $17, $18 a pound. For any kind of antler? No, just for the egg, the brown, fresh elk. Okay.
Starting point is 00:55:05 And what's a whitetail deer antler? It's running 12 maybe right now for the brown stuff. Is it like elk and whitetail deer and mule deer are all different and each one is graded A, B, and C? And how do you classify what A, B, and C is? Yeah, there's basically three grades. I have four grades, actually. You know, you got what A, B, and C is? Yeah, there's basically three grades. There's, I have four grades actually. You know, you got the A, which is the fresh quality, natural brown color. And then there's the B grade, number two grade, which is stuff that's laid out for a year.
Starting point is 00:55:38 It's got hairline cracks in it, you know, and it's faded. And then you have the C or number three grade, which is the chalk. It's been laying out for several years. And then we have what we call the number, I have a number four, I call it caca grade where it's stuff just falling apart, nasty. That's just going to go to powder. So, but caca grade is still sellable and viable. I tell people it's all worth something.
Starting point is 00:56:10 And I encourage anybody that's out there picking antlers, if you see an old rotten chunk, pick it up. Because if somebody goes in behind you and finds that chunk, they might go back. But if somebody goes into an area and you pick even the little chunks up, they might not go back. Pick your area clean. Well, I mean, yeah. But there's no secrets anymore. I mean, people are everywhere now.
Starting point is 00:56:39 Every year I say, man, there's more now than ever. And the next year there's even more now than ever more what pickers or pickers or antlers shed hunters i'm gonna call them yeah sure you know i i used to buy a lot of antlers off of a few people now i buy a few antlers off of a lot of people basically do you think like are the majority of shed hunters out there doing it for money or just recreation? They're doing it. It's basically like catch and release hunting, I guess. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:57:13 I mean, I used to, I was serious about it for a while in Colorado and it got crowded out there. Yeah. What we used to shed hunt, you know, in the 80s when not a lot of people did it. And it was nice because we could shed hunt one area. What you do is you watch the elk, see where they're feeding. You get their daylight, let them go in the timber, and you go up every other day to their feeding areas, pick up a few antlers, and the elk never left. And then when they're done shedding, then you go into the beds and pick up the rest of the antlers. Now, when one elk loses one antler,
Starting point is 00:57:48 there's four guys up there running around looking for it, pushing the elk around. And, you know, it's just, it's very competitive. Especially if there's a big one everyone knows about. Oh, yeah. They got them named and. Well, and that brings up the shed hunting seasons now.
Starting point is 00:58:04 Right. That's. That have been put into place because. I think that has a lot to do with it. Yeah. Well, and that brings up the shed hunting seasons now, right? That's. That have been put into place because. I think that has a lot to do with it. Yeah. Especially like in the migration corridors down in, what is it, southwestern Wyoming, the big mule deer, that area. People are going in there and running the deer around, you know, and you stop and think in that early spring, that's when the animals at their lowest levels and they're hungry and, you know, and pushing them around is very stressful on them. Right.
Starting point is 00:58:37 So, but yeah, I, yeah, like Colorado, I think anything West of 25 is shut down to the 1st of May. We've had game ranges around here that are shut down to the 1st of May. That's been forever. But Nevada, Wyoming is west of the divide. I don't know if they've gone statewide yet. For picking seasons. Yeah. Are there guys
Starting point is 00:59:06 right now um i got two let me ask another question first do you do elk ranch antlers follow the same market path or is that its own market guys that are raising elk and ranches yeah i don't know i don't i don't buy a lot of that stuff. Okay, so you buy mostly wild antlers. Yeah, that stuff, if they cut it in August, you know, just when they're peeling velvet, they're white and real sharp. And there's that blood. There's a lot of blood in there, but it just seems like the wild antlers that are out in the sun, the wind, the weather, that blood and the wild stuff stays good the stuff in the ranch because they cut them and they throw them in sheds or barns and they get hot anyways that blood spoils and it when you cut them it smells like oh really rotten protein and they're they're just
Starting point is 00:59:58 cutting them so they're not beating each other up yeah when they're in a, when they're in a finched in area, you have to do that because when the rut hits. Do you know, are there guys right now that, you know, even though it's gotten crowded, how many guys are out there
Starting point is 01:00:13 that you deal with that are able to, that are able to at least make a seasonal living picking antlers? Quite a few. Yeah. Quite a few.
Starting point is 01:00:23 There's people that literally go on vacation quite a few there's people that literally go on vacation just to do that there's a lot of people that are hunting guides in the fall and they don't have
Starting point is 01:00:39 a lot to do in the spring that's all they do is pick there's a few pickers out there or shed hunters i should say excuse me that find a lot of antlers a lot but they don't have anything else going on i tell people if you're going to start shed hunting don't do it don't depend on the money you're going to be greatly disappointed you know know, there were some comments in that picture. You know, I've never, that's why I can't find an antler. Well, no, that's not true.
Starting point is 01:01:12 The reason you can't find the antler is you got to go where they are in the wintertime. You can't just go walking around the hills and expect to find an antler. It doesn't work. You know, you got to go to their winter grounds, you know, or where they live yeah at that time of the year to find the antlers you can't just go wandering around yeah so what are the uh
Starting point is 01:01:36 talk about how the dog chew market came in like when it came in and how it changed the business i mean i was blown away um i'm sure it was going on long before I was aware of it but I was blown away when I started hearing from people that are paying seven bucks ten bucks for a six inch chunk antler dinky little half piece well what happened was way back when like I said we'll go back to the beginning. It was mainly export. And then there for a while that went kaput, that flattened out. They stopped importing antlers overseas. Because of why?
Starting point is 01:02:15 Something got a different market? No, just something happened. Something went wrong over there, and a lot of it has to do with the strength of the dollar against the yen or won or whatever. Yep. And anyways, so then that, there was always export, but that was just it. And then there was the chandelier furniture market. Oh, that predated the chew toy? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was in the 90s.
Starting point is 01:02:46 There was a butcher, a baker, and a chandelier maker in every town now there's a butcher a baker and a dog chew maker in every town okay so before we do dog chew let's do the let's do the chandelier market okay that would have only affected premium grade shit though. Yeah, basically. So then the stuff that wouldn't work for that, then you just send it overseas. So you were buying, at that period, you were buying with an eye toward chandelier market. During that time, yeah.
Starting point is 01:03:17 The four-point mule deer sheds, the nice big brown ones, those brought the big money. What was that? What was big money? It was up to 18 bucks a pound, I think. Wow. And then there for a while- So even for the chandelier market, you were still buying them by the pound and not by
Starting point is 01:03:34 the piece. Yeah, by the pound. And there was- And how many of those might go into a big chandelier back in those days? Well, there's, we had some that were three tiers. There'd be 60 antlers in them see man I thought about getting it now I didn't want to get into the supply business but I looked at my head a nice pile antlers for quite a while and I kept thinking about how I was
Starting point is 01:03:55 gonna run wire through all that shit make some crazy thing out of it you know I never got around to it you know how many people we're gonna do that and then they sell you antlers with screwed upup drill holes and broken-off screws in them? I even went so far as to talking to buddies of mine who were showing me how to go about it and little kits and stuff. How you get that drill to drill around the corners. Yeah, like directional drilling or whatever. Yeah. It really took off.
Starting point is 01:04:24 Is that market dead now? No. It's still there. The really took off. Is that market dead now? No. That's still there. The chandelier. But now you look at them. Sometimes you'll be sitting there in some New West faux lodge, and you'd be like, every one of them antlers is exactly the same. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:04:37 Fakeys. Because they make a fakey now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, back in the day, when was that?
Starting point is 01:04:44 In mid-90s? We were, we had a Cabela's. We were selling in the day, when was that? In mid-90s? We had a Cabela's. We were selling, we made this small chandelier that was on a metal fixture, and it was small, and we were selling them through Cabela's, and we were selling hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. How many antlers were on those? Eight. Okay. So eight mule deer antlers. We called it the boulder. Yeah, or white-tailed. There was white-tailed and mule deer antlers we called it the boulder yeah white tails there was white tail and mule deer anyways what do you mean why'd you call it the boulder it was just a brand
Starting point is 01:05:13 it was the name the name that you gave it we had a red lodge we had a madison you know you just come up with the quirky names but so you were making them. You were in the business. Personally, I wasn't. I don't have the self-discipline to build one. Okay, but you were using your antler and having to build. Yeah, we had people working for us that were making them full-time. Got it. And anyways, so then Cabela's bought this fake antler company where they were casting fake antlers. And then they started doing their own.
Starting point is 01:05:53 That to me, that just feels like, I mean, how could you get into that? Who would want a fake antler chandelier? A lot of people wouldn't know the difference. Numbers. A lot of people wouldn't know the difference between a real one and a fake one. And then the cost is a third. That's the thing that blows my mind, too, is how could it be cheaper to make a fake antler chandelier? Pour some plastic into a mold.
Starting point is 01:06:21 Well, I know. Yeah, but the other shit's just laying around out in the woods, dude. Yeah. Finite quality, though. Well, I know. Yeah, but the other shit's just laying around out in the woods, dude. Yeah. Finite quality, though. Supply and demand. Okay, I got to interrupt our timeline for a minute because I'm going to forget to ask you this. Do you buy it on, will you buy deadheads just to get the antlers off the skull? Or do you say to the guy, cut them off, then I'll buy it?
Starting point is 01:06:37 No, a lot of times I'll buy them. We've got the big commercial saws and it makes pretty quick work of it. So just same thing pot you cut the skull off and weigh it yeah okay weigh the antlers yeah there's no there's no prohibition to get selling a dead head no no as long as it's legal yeah in the state that you're in in wyoming you have to get them tagged got it for the fishing game and and um i think new me, that's taboo without a tag. You know what I like about the system in New Mexico is when you find something out in the woods like that, like a deadhead. We found Ibex deadhead.
Starting point is 01:07:16 And a game warden comes out and he puts a value on it. And you buy it from the state. So we found Ibex deadhead. And it wasn't in great condition. It could get more, but it was just like a young deadhead. And he came out, and I can't remember what he told us. He said, I don't know, $10. So he spent $10 in gas to come and tell you $10.
Starting point is 01:07:36 Well, no, because what's funny about it is he was real curious about our hunting license and all that, too. He got a twofer. We called. We got a twofer. We called. We had a deadhead. He came out, told us $10. It was me and Kevin Murphy. I think we each paid $5. While I'm here.
Starting point is 01:07:55 Split it in half. And then basically while I'm here, and he got down to brass tacks and our legality and stuff. So the chandelier market. Okay. You got into that. You're Antler Company. Yeah, my dad's Antler Company, yeah. Got it.
Starting point is 01:08:16 And what were the years that that was hot? Mid to late 90s. Yeah. Maybe into the early 2000s. Okay. Then it kind of petered off. Fell out of fashion. Well, yeah, but it was still going.
Starting point is 01:08:32 It just wasn't as strong as it was. Yeah, yeah. Saw a lot of that where Giannis and I were at that time. The ski towns. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a weird thing about ski people and ski towns. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a weird thing about ski people in ski towns. That was when the lodge decor was big. But why are they not always into that?
Starting point is 01:08:51 Like, why don't they decorate it like they're skiing? If you go to, I had to go, they do, but I had to go to big sky one night. That's mixed up right in there. And the,
Starting point is 01:08:59 I had to go to big sky one night and at the hotel, you know what they dress up like at the hotel? Like cattle ranchers. It's like, why are you guys dressed like cattle ranchers? They wear dusters? It's like, why are you dressed like ski people? Like, you're like the, this is not,
Starting point is 01:09:16 this is like the opposite of cattle ranching. Let's get back to it. This is the end of, it's like, why in the world are you dressed like cattle ranchers? Do you really want an explanation? Yes, yes, yes. You don't understand? And why would a ski place have elk antlers when it's the antithesis of elk?
Starting point is 01:09:34 Do you know what I mean? They don't think all that through. Oh. Anyways. Chandelier market. Chandelier market. Right. So then, tell me how the chew to like how like
Starting point is 01:09:45 where'd the chew toy thing come from you know everybody not everybody but a lot of people said oh i was the first to do it before anybody else but but you were the first no no but i mean you, a lot of times in the antler business, the first liar don't stand a chance, you know. But when it comes to my piles and how much I buy and, you know, it's always a one-upmanship. But there was a guy down in Texas, I think, Mike, who started it. A Texan named Mike? Yeah. And what did he do um basically i guess he saw one of his friend's
Starting point is 01:10:30 dogs chewing on an antler and then the light went off yeah i mean ranch dogs my dog i can't i can't verify he was the actual first but if he he wasn't, it was a close tie. And around what year was that that someone had the light bulb go off? I have no idea. I think the dog chew business has been going on pretty strong for 15-ish years. Okay. In that New Yorker article, it said 2004. I mean, at some point, the pet health food market latched on to antlers.
Starting point is 01:11:08 And that's got to have an effect on it. There was a big scare that came from China where there was a bunch of dog food and dog treats that had, like, cardboard in it. And there was a big deal. And people started, I think they started going organic and stuff. Like all natural. Yeah. People spend a lot of money on their dogs.
Starting point is 01:11:31 Yeah. More so than their kids. I was telling Corinne, no, it's a better return on your investment. With a dog, you get unconditional love. What do you get with a kid?
Starting point is 01:11:41 Well, dog, I keep telling my kids, that dog you got, I tell them, I was telling them this yesterday, the dog you got that's only good for another 10 years
Starting point is 01:11:48 is going to be dead. But I'll be around a lot longer than that. Doesn't matter, does it? No, they think they still like that dog better. You're right. So how do you buy
Starting point is 01:12:02 for the dog? Like, when you're looking at a pile of antlers in your head, are you like, that looks perfect for the dog like when you're when you're looking at a pile of antlers in your head are you like that looks perfect for the dog chew business it's all pretty much perfect for the dog chew business even the chalky ones i don't sell chalky ones i know people that do but i don't sell the chalky ones but you just told me you tell your guys to pick up everything. Yeah. There's a market for all of it.
Starting point is 01:12:28 Okay. But you said you don't sell chalky ones. For dog chews. Oh, I see. Two and two together equals slow boat overseas. Got it. Well, I don't get it. What's that mean?
Starting point is 01:12:42 Containers. Okay. Overseas to Asian markets. Export. Got it. So they get separated out. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Starting point is 01:12:53 You grade them. Got it. You grade them out. So who comes to you to buy? You're not bagging up and going around and banging on the door to sell dog shoes. Who do you see? Who's your end consumer? And you're just bagging up and going around and banging on the door to sell dog chews. Who orders dog chew bones from you? Most of them are the distributors that distribute to the pet chains. Okay.
Starting point is 01:13:18 And I sell mostly bulk. They take and brand it. They package it. And then they send it off to the pet stores. And you buy it and cut it. They package it. And then they send it off to the pet stores. And you buy it and cut it. Right. Where are you doing all that? In Ennis.
Starting point is 01:13:33 Okay. And what volume of stuff are you cutting up for dogs? Volume as total pounds? Yeah, like how many pounds are going out there in the world? How many pounds of antlers are going out there in the world? From just me? Or everybody. Yeah, however you put your grip
Starting point is 01:13:53 around the size of the dog chew industry. It's hard to say because like I said, if you ask a lot of the buyers how much they buy and how much they sell, they're not going to give you an accurate answer.
Starting point is 01:14:05 You don't say. Wait, do you? No. I wouldn't tell you even if I knew. I really don't know my exact poundage. It's always coming and going. You know, you buy a trailer load, you sell half a trailer load. It's always coming and going so what's walk me through why not
Starting point is 01:14:27 um walk me through the reasons to not share that because it'd be like you're because you don't want to um you don't want to expose the magnitude and impact of the industry because you don't want to inform competitors yeah i just want to protect my little slice of the pie and you feel that by giving me concrete numbers every time i ask how much of this or how much of that would impact your slice of the pie possibly because people know where i go and that's why i fly under the radar there's other buyers arrive in the middle of the night i stopped and this is no kidding i stopped in this unnamed town and stayed the night and i got a phone call from a friend of mine in another state and says so-and-so just called me what are you doing in this town what town was it
Starting point is 01:15:21 it was over there it was in in Grants, New Mexico. Oh, okay. But this other buyer. Thank you for the specificity. This other buyer had people watching out for my vehicle. And he knew I was there. And I just stayed the night and left the next morning. So you see what I'm saying?
Starting point is 01:15:41 So it's just, I like to, I just like to be kind of secretive. I like to sneak around and get in and get my stuff and get out. And if people find that you're buying a lot of antlers in an area, they might come in and try to help you take some of those from you. I got you now. So what's the hottest buying? What do you feel is the hottest town? Like the least exploited hottest buying town in america bozeman monday yeah i'm sure all right that's it'd be hard to
Starting point is 01:16:14 it's hard to say earlier oh sorry go ahead brody what's the hottest state like what do you where do you get the most from color Colorado's got the most elk. They do. Colorado's a really good state. Colorado treats me well. That's a good antler buying state. It is. After the 1st of May, of course.
Starting point is 01:16:34 You know earlier how we talked about the mountain men? Mm-hmm. Are you familiar with a fellow named John Coulter? Are you familiar with the fact that many people think he was the first white man to see Yellowstone National Park? I'm not familiar with that. Wouldn't surprise me. So then you probably aren't aware of the fact that for a long time they referred to Yellowstone as Coulter's Hell and people didn't believe him? No.
Starting point is 01:17:00 What he saw there? You know what he was doing when he went there? Hunting sheds. Nope. Oh. He was. This when he went there? Hunting sheds. Nope. Oh. He was. This is very early in the beaver trade. Coulter was going around trying to make contact with tribes to see if he couldn't get them interested in the beaver market, in the beaver trade.
Starting point is 01:17:21 Was there a period in antler buying when you had to do something similar? Mm-hmm. Tell me about that. Like, Oh, like going into an area and trying to establish. Pickers. Pickers. Shed hunters.
Starting point is 01:17:37 Shed hunters. Yeah. Yeah. You go in and what I do, if I go into a new area, you take a sign and sit on a street corner empty lot they'll sign out there and people will stop ask you a question so you're a few antlers and you just end up what i like to do is uh if you don't end up getting a buyer there i uh it takes a year or two to figure
Starting point is 01:18:03 out who the players are in the area as far as shed hunters. And then you just concentrate on taking care of them. I can't afford to sit all day on a street corner usually. You got to keep moving. Well, you got to, when you're traveling, you got to buy X amount a day just to cover your overhead. What's a big haul of antlers for an individual you can tell me this is not you a shed hunter yeah a shed hunter what would be if i let's say i call you in the middle of an annual haul you're asking by calling the middle of the night and i say uh i'm not a buyer i'm just a
Starting point is 01:18:39 shed hunter and i have blank pounds what would be the number that you'd say that would perk your ears up? Nowadays? Sure. 500 pounds. So if he says, I got 500 pounds, I picked myself, your ears perk up. Yeah, nowadays.
Starting point is 01:18:59 Well, tell me about 30 years ago. Oh, there's guys that find 2,000 pounds. Truck loads used to be average 300 pounds. The pickup load. When they say I got a pickup load, it used to be 300 pounds. Now it's 75. Seriously? No, no, I swear.
Starting point is 01:19:19 Cause they're all dealing with so much competition. Because there's so many people doing it. Okay. I used to go into towns. I wouldn't even have to put up a sign. They'd see my rig there. And if I had a few antlers, we used to, used to have a flatbed car hauler and it put wire racks up so high and you just throw a hundred pounds in there. And I'd pull into a gas station and people just start, you sit there for 30 minutes, people just start showing up and you could buy 2,000 pounds as fast as you could.
Starting point is 01:19:48 You could buy 2,000 pounds in a few hours from people. Nowadays you can sit there all day and you might not buy 200 pounds. Because there is a buyer in that town the day before you and there was another buyer two days before you. But literally you mean like someone seeing your sign at a gas station, calling, you know, Johnny calls Bill, hey, it looks like this guy's a buyer. So everybody's just calling everybody who's accumulated sheds and just shows up. Yeah, they just show up. It's like old-fashioned marketing. You'd have 10, 12 people in line to sell your sheds.
Starting point is 01:20:24 You know, and it's not like that anymore. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And, boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season.
Starting point is 01:21:05 The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right. We're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it. Be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service.
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Starting point is 01:21:48 you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. Are you familiar with role-playing? You and me are going to
Starting point is 01:22:13 role-play. That's the secret to 29 years, bud. I'll be a guy named Bert. Okay, we're role-playing. You're you. You're you. You're in your hotel down in New Mexico. Steve, you're Bert. You're you. You're in your hotel down in New Mexico. You're you. You're in your hotel down in New Mexico. You're sitting there in your underwear in your hotel room
Starting point is 01:22:30 and I call. Okay. And I say, hey, I have 500 pounds of, um, I picked it myself. I have 500 pounds of this year's brown elk antler. Okay. A bunch of 5 point, 6 point bulls like good stuff. Okay i say uh what are you
Starting point is 01:22:51 paying that's gotta be how it goes right oh yeah yeah okay and you say what well whatever the price is at the time okay well throw me one out okay if i if you were a picker, I'd say $17 a pound. Okay. Then I go, well, Bert said that he'd give me $18. We're role-playing. Sure. That's what you tell him. So you've got to answer, Tony.
Starting point is 01:23:20 He says Bert said $18. We're role-playing. I'd say you sell him to Bert. Because I know Bert's 18. Oh, I'd say I'd sell them to Bert because I know Bert's lying because when I go into an area, I know what the scoop is. So it's like a set price that everyone's playing like the same. Yeah, they don't do it that way. No. A lot of guys will quote, let's say this is an example and these numbers aren't set in concrete.
Starting point is 01:23:47 The guy will come into a town, I'll pay $18 a pound for brown elk. Okay. And you get there. Oh, wait, but they got to be five points without broken points and they got to be a certain size and a certain shape. And then the rest of it's $15 a pound. Yeah. So you net $'s $15 a pound. Yeah. So you net $15.10 a pound.
Starting point is 01:24:10 But to these guys, they got $18 a pound. But I don't grade like that. And if it's chewed on, it's worth, even if it's brown, it'd be worth B grade price. And, you know, everybody's got their smoke and mirrors and I don't buy like that. I got a question for you know everybody's got their smoking mirrors and i don't buy like that i got a question for you broken chewed it's all the same brown is brown i got a question for you might not answer but less is less is sometimes more got it if if the if you're
Starting point is 01:24:37 by if you're giving me 15 bucks a pound you're making money somehow hopefully this is where he's gonna this is where you're gonna find he's gonna be totally transparent is it just lay out the whole market for you is it is it hot in here like are you are you getting 60 in a pound or are you getting 30 a pound why are we talking percentages you may margins yeah yeah um no i'm not making 30 a pound. Why don't we talk in percentages? Margins. Yeah, margins. No, I'm not making $30 a pound. It's somewhere in between. Okay, you tell me. Let's play it. Let's play it.
Starting point is 01:25:12 What's that game? High, low, or whatever? Yeah, yeah. You're getting warmer. No, you try. I mean, you try to, when it's all said and done, if you could make 20%. Okay, that's fair. Because you got overhead into it.
Starting point is 01:25:30 Overhead? I could buy a very nice, I could make a very nice mortgage payment on a very nice house just with my fuel bills every month. I got one for you. We don't need to role play it. Thank you. You go into a town. Okay.
Starting point is 01:25:49 All right. No, let me say this first. Like you, you're one of the, um, you're one of the biggest elk antler buyers in the West. Not the biggest. No, but I'm up there. I, well, okay. Let's put it this way. I'm in the top.
Starting point is 01:26:02 So many. 10, let's say. I've downsized my business quite a bit. Oh, okay. We'll get to that. I want to know why. I can answer it in one word. Oh, great.
Starting point is 01:26:14 Go ahead. Well, two. Three. Too much work. Okay. That's fine. But anyways. You go into a town.
Starting point is 01:26:27 You go down to New Mexico to buy antler. Okay, time out. Why New Mexico? Because you mentioned you mentioned New Mexico earlier. Okay. What state do you want to do? Colorado. Okay, you go to Colorado. Colorado treats me really well. Eagle Colorado. You go to
Starting point is 01:26:44 Colorado to buy antler. Been there. And someone's like, oh shit, some guy was just in town buying antler. Are you probably going to wind up seeing that pile of antler as a buyer? Possibly. Okay. So here's where I feel like the price is, that you're deceiving me and the price isn't fixed. Word goes around that it's 18 bucks a pound.
Starting point is 01:27:12 Some guy goes down with a sign in a van and sits there all day on the corner and buys a bunch of antler for 18 a pound. When he comes to you now, he's got it. Are you really not going to up it a little bit to get that big pile of antler? Possibly. But the number 18 is just a fictitious number. I mean, it could be usually the street-level buyers, we'll call them, that sit there all day. They usually pay less than a kingpin. Well, I'm not a kingpin. No, I thought you were doing, it sounded like drug vernacular. But you know what I'm saying is, you know, there's tonnage
Starting point is 01:27:54 buyers. There's different levels of buyers. There's upper tier and lower tier. I'm probably mid upper. I'm not going to claim I'm the biggest, baddest guy in the world. I know I'm not. Yep. I just do what I can do myself. But basically, yeah. But I stay out of areas where I have people that buy for me working. So I don't create competition against myself if somebody
Starting point is 01:28:26 calls me from eagle colorado and says hey i got 50 pounds or 100 pounds when are you coming i says well i i but here's a guy i'll have a guy get a hold of you he'll just come and get him and he'll treat you good and and they're like oh okay no No. I got a question about a part of the market that may not fall under the poundage price. And that's like, do you have a completely little separate part of your business that's for like big, giant antlers? That was exactly my next question, Brody. Where does the crazy shit go? Because I imagine those, like, obviously the poundage thing doesn't work for that market. No.
Starting point is 01:29:09 There is, and I'm quoting air quotes for those who can't see, a trophy shed market where things are usually bought, like shed sets are bought by the set. Yeah, you can, down at the Western Honey Expo there in Salt Lake, there's usually some booths set up. And you'll see a set of, you know, 380s, and they're asking five, six, seven grand for them. And good luck. You don't think they ever sell them? Maybe one. Maybe one. You can put whatever price you want on them.
Starting point is 01:29:43 Sure, yeah. you can put whatever price you want on them yeah but you can't go you can't put 1500 on them and try to negotiate negotiate up to 2500 so you put eight grand yeah and come down yes you know uh but no that's that's that's a lot of money for a 380 set of elk sheds sure i just made that up i don't know if that's i mean it's been a long time since i was there i just remember looking at a set of sheds going geez really that's a lot of money for a set of sheds right right right what was the craziest thing or the biggest thing or whatever you ever seen just thrown into a pile of sheds that came into the market biggest and craziest yeah just whatever like oddball like i mean if you looked
Starting point is 01:30:27 at so many thousands and thousands of antlers what kind of stuff flows through that catches you by surprise every once in a while you'll get a big boon and crocket shed of some species that gets into the pile by accident. They didn't know what they were looking at. Yeah, and a lot of times when I'm buying, you're throwing 100 pounds around at a time, you're not paying much attention. When you're unloading the trailer, you go, oh, wow. And that gets thrown into another pile.
Starting point is 01:30:58 Well, you throw it aside, and I've got a pile of trinkets, I call them. That was my next question. And I've had some of these trinkets for three or four years and yeah because they can't be like it's got to be a match set to really like or yeah or a very unique single shed did you bring us like a real crazy present like a crazy ass but but but it's not out of the question, but I'd have to bring it from Ennis. I couldn't fit it on the airplane. Got it.
Starting point is 01:31:29 No, I do a lot. I don't have a, quote, trophy market where I sell a lot. I do a lot of trading with people. Okay. Like if I find, if I know Bert in Eagle, Colorado or wherever, looking for non-typical mule deer sheds. And if I get one, I'll trade him some poundage. I see. You know, that's, I do, it's about 96% how I do it.
Starting point is 01:31:58 Got it. You're after the poundage. Well, yeah, but I mean, it's just, it's easier to market it and sell it that way. If you go down to the auction in Jackson, you can see people sitting on the square and they get their parking spots where they sell their trinkets and they've got a lot of very nice sheds that are very expensive and they don't sell them. So, you know, to me, I'm looking at it like i can take that shed okay and turn it into something that i can move instead of that money sitting there
Starting point is 01:32:36 you know money costs money right yeah so why not keep it moving i took us i bought no here's a story i bought a set of chalky elk sheds and they were really nice they weren't giant but it was like an eight by nine okay and i i don't know i traded a guy an antler what'd you pay for him well i traded okay a moose paddle for them. Got it. So I had probably 80, 90 bucks in it. Okay. Then I took it and I drove it across the state, and this was in Colorado, and I traded for 260 pounds of assorted grades of deer antlers. So I ended up getting a lot of money for that moose paddle. I turned a moose paddle into a
Starting point is 01:33:26 a fairly decent pile of deer antlers yeah home run for everybody yeah you know so but stuff like that and it wasn't it wasn't two thousand dollars worth of deer antlers i mean there was a lot of chalk in there and stuff but i mean it worked out good do you everybody do you notice um on sort of on a meta scale on a large scale when you're when you're handling thousands of these antlers do you notice years where you're like man there was great antler growth or poppy elk populations are down or up or you you definitely see that what what give me some examples of how how that might play out in a specific area let's say okay well i'll start with the northern yellowstone elk herd that comes out of the park and migrates up paradise valley it used to be 16 000 elk roughly or take. Now it's down to, I don't even know, less than 7,000.
Starting point is 01:34:28 Yeah. Still shooting all kinds of cows. You know, and I attribute a lot of that to the introduction of the wolves. Sure, yeah. You know. And some areas where you have dry years, it seems like the antlers are brittle.
Starting point is 01:34:45 Okay. Not a lot of mass. And wet years, you seem like you get good antler growth, good mass. A lot of down south in various states, they don't get their rains until July. So things don't green up until later in the year. So that next year brings the antler growth. It depends on what kind of feed they're carrying in. Got it.
Starting point is 01:35:08 So you can tell in some areas that are dry that the antler growth just isn't, you know, it's good. Do you see certain, like maybe that, I don't know if you'd see this or not, but like certain tendencies in like the elk antlers in one part of the country versus and like they grow a certain way oh there's characteristics yeah there's genetics yeah of course like for instance certain areas in arizona new mexico you get those i don't know what people call them they call them the devil points that come off the brow tines they stick up like this or some areas have three brow tines you know or forked brow tines um and then there's other areas where they got tops that come out different you know yeah certain areas that yellowstone heard for years you could tell what areas they
Starting point is 01:36:06 came from because they had really short g3s that was just the genetics for the time no you still hear people talk about that all the time yeah are there more deer antlers sold than elk antlers just due to the prevalence of, for example, whitetail nationally, you know, in terms of like what you're buying? What I'm buying personally? No, I buy more elk than deer. Okay, and then maybe in the market. But I choose to do that.
Starting point is 01:36:39 Okay, so then maybe in the market generally, nationally for buyers. That's a hard one to answer. You know, because I don't know what other buyers do. Sure, sure. But realistically speaking, it would make sense because I think there are a lot more deer in the United States than there are elk. And I mean, I think when, you know, I bought an antler chew for my dog a couple years ago. He showed absolutely no interest, so I never bought one again. But it was a deer antler, not an elk antler.
Starting point is 01:37:14 So I can't remember seeing elk antlers being used as dog chews. But I, you know, I think it's been more deer antlers used as dog chews. Possibly, it depends on, I guess, where you go. But I think it's been more deer antlers used as dog chews. Yeah, possibly. It depends on, I guess, where you go. But I sell mostly elk. Mm-hmm. And in terms of your, like, based on the grade of the antler, deer or elk, what grade of which antler becomes what end product? Well, the A or the number one grade and the number two grade usually go for the dog chews.
Starting point is 01:37:51 And then the number three grade, I know people that sell them, but I don't like it. It's just they're so dried out they could be brittle. But it's not so like grade A for you is going to dog choose and not someone's chandelier, for example. No. Okay. I mean, you always pull out, I've got piles of nice sheds, you know, that I keep out. Chandelier quality.
Starting point is 01:38:20 Yeah, chandelier quality in case somebody's looking for some. I got a big pile of deer where when we get back, we're going to start building our Christmas tree. Make Christmas tree out of antlers. So you've been saving for that? Yeah, I just, yeah. And then, you know, and if nobody wants to buy this furniture quality, we'll say, then yeah, you know, you can always sell them as dog chews later that does really sound like the dog chew market
Starting point is 01:38:47 is dominant at least based on how you're choosing to sell I think it's a controlling force right now without a doubt
Starting point is 01:38:53 without a doubt how would you rate the in your experience like how would you rate the seediness level of the antler
Starting point is 01:39:02 market oh man like I would it brings out you know it brings out the worst in a lot of people How would you rate the seediness level of the antler market? Oh, man. It brings out the worst in a lot of people. Because in the late 70s, early 80s, the fur trade, when it was crazy hot, it developed a seediness. Yeah, and we've talked to game wardens where a lot of people who are poaching are tied to some other type of criminal activity, drug dealing or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get, whenever I'm in towns, police stop me all the time. Say, hey, did you buy any antlers off of so-and-so?
Starting point is 01:39:39 And I said, I look through my receipts. I keep accurate receipts on who I deal with. And I say, no. And they said, well, keep your eyes out. This is a vehicle. Here's a license plate number. Here's my card. Please call me.
Starting point is 01:39:52 Sure, no problem. Because they're stealing antlers. And usually they're doing that to fund other vices, we'll say, possibly. And it seems that's where it gravitates towards the illicit stuff. Dude, that tree is incredible. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Did you guys make that tree?
Starting point is 01:40:13 Yeah. How many antlers total? Oh, no clue. You can't move it. No clue. Holy shit. It's got to be several hundred, right? Oh, it's probably 150 minimum okay of deer and elk mix but yeah
Starting point is 01:40:27 it took us about three evenings farting around you know when the one of the times on the antler market blew up i guess it was kind of like i don't know i don't know what year it was and it probably because you've been in it so long something the beginning of things don't seem like the beginning to you because you were in it like from the infancy of various things okay but i don't know when i became aware of like just like the antler market the antler market uh i had a friend well my brother in alaska danny he would take all the shed antlers and all the shit he killed and he'd make like a cylinder that climbed this big spruce tree.
Starting point is 01:41:05 Yeah. And just wrap a tree in it. One day he comes home and it's just gone. Right. A buddy of mine had a, I was actually in on this bull we killed. Another friend of mine up in Alaska. We killed a nice bull one time and I was there with him when he got it. And we were talking about that and he's like gone. Hung in my garage for years and they come home and it's just gone.
Starting point is 01:41:24 And that was right around the same time my brother's tree got picked clean yeah somebody went through and made a few stops you know but as a buyer um obviously like well i don't know man like you know if you for instance in some stuff in some stuff in wildlife a buyer is under like quite a bit of they're under quite a bit of they're under quite a bit of pressure to vet what's coming like you go to a taxidermist right they you can't just walk in with crazy shit new taxidermist he's like i need your tag i need your license right whatever if you go to a tannery right it's like whatever state you're coming from what are the regulations
Starting point is 01:42:01 of that state is it supposed to be sealed do you have records and all that but when you're talking about antlers um that you don't there's no regulatory structure in place on tagging the shit right so how you know to what degree are you held responsible for where something came from when you have no real way of vetting it you're really not you're not you you've got your gut like you know you can deal with some people and you go this isn't right i'm writing the license plate down got it so you've had you'll have a guy approach and you're like you didn't find those antlers like you got them somehow besides that well sometimes, sometimes, yeah. No, you can't go out and say that, but you get a gut feeling, especially when somebody shows up with a pile of chalky stuff that's nice and clean and it's got some grass and flower leaves stuck to it. Like they just took it out of somebody's flower garden. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:42:59 Usually if they show up with a couple of browns and maybe a number two grade and then some chalky ones. Yeah, they're probably okay. But when they show up with a pile of chalk, like they stole it from somebody's yard. Might you then turn them away? No. I mean, because if you're not knowingly doing anything, but that's when you take extra notations. Yeah, because it could have been his flower bed. Sooner or later, the police are going to probably stop and ask you questions. Here you go.
Starting point is 01:43:28 I mean, I'm not a hush-hush guy. I mean, you know, if a game warden or somebody came up, hey, here's my, it happened down in the auction three, four years ago. Bought some antlers off a guy. He goes, you going to be here for a while? I said, sure. And he brought some antlers in a guy he goes you're gonna be here for a while sure and he brought some antlers in bottom threw him in the trailer and i left the auction and went to the motel room and i'm sitting in bed talking to jamie on the phone and my phone rings and i look call waiting and it's a 307 it was a jackson hole number and i says oh i gotta go somebody's wanting to sell me antlers probably and they said oh this is so-and-so from the
Starting point is 01:44:10 wyoming game and fish um can we talk to you sure he goes did you buy some antlers off of so-and-so matter of fact we did he goes where you at right And I said, I'm at my motel. And he goes, can we come by? And I said, sure. He goes, I'll be there in one minute. So they knew where I was at because the antler had a GPS tracker in it. Oh. So, but we didn't know.
Starting point is 01:44:37 And then, so opened up the trailer and he pulled the antler out and here it is. And he goes, he goes, he sold you some more? And I go, yeah. He goes, where are the rest of his antlers? And I go, there's 8,000 pounds in the trailer. You know, pick them. I don't know. You know, because they were all mixed.
Starting point is 01:44:57 Yeah, yeah. And I go, I don't know. But anyways, he picked it up off the game range before it opened down there, one of the feedlots. And he took it to his house, and they knew he had it. And as soon as he moved it, it started signaling. And we bought the antlers and left, and the fishing game were there two minutes after we left. So they plugged that one antler just to do a sting.
Starting point is 01:45:27 Not a sting, but to catch people yeah and then they'll go in on may 1st or right before may 1st and they'll take it out but i go here here's my receipt here's my receipts this is the check number i paid him uh and they copied that and they said hey thanks for your cooperation. And the guy that was with me that ended up having the antler says, hey, wait a minute. You're taking this. I'm losing money. And they says, well, we'll give you a slip. You can write it off as a loss. Or if the guy gets busted.
Starting point is 01:46:01 His restitution. Restitution. And ended up getting the restitution back years ago i was working on an article about livestock theft and i was hanging out with some guys from the rural rural crime task force in bakersfield california and it was in scrap prices were high they were running around putting transmitters inside irrigation pipe and shit like that. He goes, you could put a stack of irrigation pipe out by the road, put a transmitter on it, and just wait until the next morning. Gone.
Starting point is 01:46:34 He said it wasn't hard. You know how many, during that issue, how many times electricians had to rewire houses because they go in and strip all the copper out it's horrible you mentioned um you mentioned two things you mentioned calling it slowing down on the business but you mentioned that there's a third generation coming up so which is it slowing down or is it no no no just, no, no, no. Just downsized a little bit. I mean, you can only handle so much. Uh-huh. So, no, I just thinned out some accounts, downsized a little bit to a more manageable level. It kept growing and growing and growing.
Starting point is 01:47:16 Is your business the kind of business that you could sell the business or does it die with you? What's it worth? I don't know enough about the business. It's blue sky. I mean't know enough about the business. I mean, you know, the people I deal with, there's no contractual agreements. Yeah. So, I mean, there's no monetary value on it. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:47:32 Uh, and most of my contacts that I buy antlers from other people know, I mean, with the advent of the social media, everybody knows everybody, so they're, you know, so, and I'm not a big social media guy. If you were to predict, you know, you talked about your son potentially being third generation, where would you predict the market? Where would you say it could be going in five years, 10 years? Is there going to be a new thing? Are people going to get tired of giving their dogs antler chews? No, I don't think.
Starting point is 01:48:11 I predict regulation. That's what I was going to ask. No, I was going to say what's going to happen is, I think it's going to be regulated. It's going to be like hunting licenses. I think you'll always be able to sell antler dog chews. it's going to be like hunting licenses. I think you'll always be able to sell antler dog chews. Where it's going to go in five years, I have no idea.
Starting point is 01:48:37 I wish I knew then what I know now. So I don't know. And maybe possibly there won't be a big commercial market in five or ten years. I thought the dog chew market would have already played out. It'll play out. It will. Well, I'm the guy that thought microbrews. I'm the guy that predicted in 1996 that microbrews were over. I don't know.
Starting point is 01:48:56 I was like, how many of these things could there be? I don't know if that pet market's going anywhere. I think that one. Remind me not to take any stock tips from you no i would not shit like that though anything outside of my i don't because they're i mean and it's not just the antler dog chews just the single ingredient organic other things that are that the dogs are chewing on and and eating uh um it's's like Jamie cooks for our dogs now. We don't give them any dry food.
Starting point is 01:49:31 Sam shot that buck and that doe, the lungs, kidneys, the heart, everything. We're not heart eaters. So the kidneys, lungs. Got it. All the internal organs and the dogs just Eat it That's a good idea I do a lot of that for my dog But I haven't done the lungs
Starting point is 01:49:49 That's a good idea God they love that stuff I just boil it man I mince it up and boil it She goes nuts I do tongue I do I do 90%
Starting point is 01:50:00 90% raw Don't even boil it. No. No. You got to... I flash fry it and throw it in there. Slowly transition them over so you don't have intestinal distress. Yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 01:50:15 Yeah. Do you guys... Has CWD affected your business at all? No. No. Like moving stuff around? Well, in certain areas of Colorado or certain areas, you got to, you can't transport a head out of the county. It has to be boiled in county for you to transport.
Starting point is 01:50:38 So you got to saw the antlers on a dead head for you to transport? Well, I do that most of the time anyways. They take up so much space. But no, the CWD, other than that, no. Right. for your trans well i do that most of the time anyways they take up so much space but no the the cwd other than that no right it's it's not there's there hasn't been any case that i'm aware of that dogs have actually no i i was just referring to like in general has that disease affected how your business yeah like the regulation around interstate transport antlers probably it's a very small percentage of deadheads that you end up dealing with yeah yeah very small um oh my last i had another question i was gonna ask you or the ones i do buy are already sawed off,
Starting point is 01:51:26 so you just end up with the antlers. So it's not a big deal. Well, I know what I was going to ask. Cut out my nightmare when I was going to ask. Okay. If you're a seller, is there anything to gain? Role play? Role play again?
Starting point is 01:51:41 No, no, we don't need to role play. Is there ever a pitch about why a seller should go to you like do you feel like plugging do you feel like saying hey man if you got elk antler call me honesty yeah he's honest yeah i mean i'm pretty straightforward track record i when i when i like i just started buying antlers off a guy in the Midwest, buys deer, and I go, look, here's my deal, okay? I said, I'm going to be brutally honest with you one way or the other, either way.
Starting point is 01:52:19 Like it could work for your favor or against your favor. And I said, I expect the same treatment in return. And I said, don't hide anything. Don't pull any punches. I mean, if you got a problem, call me, you know, and if I have a problem with you, I'm going to tell you. And, you know, that's how we get along. So transparency, honesty, you know, and yeah, the new people, they try you out and if you treat them right,
Starting point is 01:52:53 they'll come back. So how do people find you if they want to sell you a pile of antlers? You gotta care. I do care. They just, word of mouth, my number's out there. People know. Tony Schoffler. Well, I'm just, you know, like one guy I know that I buy from.
Starting point is 01:53:16 So you don't want to say your number right now. Billy, you got antlers to sell? Call me. 406-570-3371 i repeat 406-570-3371 i need to check if you're lying you know what you know what three of the biggest lies are in the world was that a lie i love you checks in the mail and i'm an honest antler buyer. What was the number he just gave? 406-570-3371.
Starting point is 01:53:53 Oh, that's his number. Yeah, it's on your phone. That's really his number. Yeah, no, I got your number. Please no hate mail. Yeah. No, I think you're a salesman antler, man. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:54:04 Yeah. No, I think you're a sales mantler, man. Yeah. Yeah. If your kid takes over, he can adopt some of the new ways like social media and stuff like that. Definitely. He's, they're 14-year-old twins now. I go to them. My phone's not working and they fix it in 10 seconds. Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:54:24 Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on, man. Thanks for having me. I fix it in 10 seconds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on, man. Thanks for having me. It's, I guess it's an honor. Like I said, I was telling Corinne, you guys are celebrities in some circles, I guess. No, I'm just kidding. No, you know, I watched your show since you started and I kind of liked the way you do it.
Starting point is 01:54:43 Oh, thank you. Appreciate it. You know, it's not just going out there and shooting a big animal and i get a couple big ones no you do but you know what it is it's not like you go to a private place and they know where this deer is and you set up and you shoot it no you're out there doing the whole philosophical thing and thank you appreciate it and get some ideas on cooking i like to do that for sure one thing i'll never try is that boiled tongue that you and cal ate one time deer hunting in idaho you don't know what you're talking about man i just did me and listen let me tell you i want
Starting point is 01:55:20 to give you a hot tip next time you get out when someone comes with some antlers say how about you sell me that tongue you get the tongue listen listen what i'm saying okay put that tongue in a pot of water and barely simmer it the elk tongue deer tongue whatever elk tongue's nicer okay barely simmer it until you notice it around where you cut it off that you notice the outer skin is starting to peel away okay all right now put it in cold water plunge it in cold water so you don't burn your fingers and see can i peel all the outer skin off if you can't let it boil longer eventually you'll get all the outer skin peeled off the tongue okay it's white when you peel it off now put a dry rub all over that some put in a smoker really then you slice it up and eat that and tell me there's a problem with that okay everybody that eats it says the
Starting point is 01:56:19 same thing holy that's good some variation on that that. You know, I'm telling you, dude. It's good. Tacos, too. So fatty and good. Lingua. I guess after a couple of beers, I'd probably try just about anything. If I gave it to you right now, if I gave it to you right now,
Starting point is 01:56:40 you'd know what it was. You wouldn't know what it was, but you'd think it was pretty damn good. Our Great Dane loves tongue. That's how it was the first time I ate mountain lion. I didn't know what I was eating. And you liked it. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:56:54 Sure. It looked like kind of, it was pork chop. It looked like a pork chop. It was gravy and rice, and I ate a bunch of it before I figured out what it was. Yeah, I don't mind that stuff. No. What I like about that, the fat's pretty good on it. You don't see many with fat.
Starting point is 01:57:07 I'll take your word for it. I've had a mountain lion backstrap that was capped in fat, and the fat was good. Really? Like pork fat. Yeah, legitimately good. Surprising. You've got to cook it, though. I expect it to not be good.
Starting point is 01:57:19 Oh, yeah, you can get the old trichinosis off that shit. You know a little bit of something about that, don't you? You know the saying, you can't eat the antlers? That's bullshit. Tony's whole business is based on dogs and people eating antlers. I was going to tell you
Starting point is 01:57:31 the story and you got me sidetracked, but I know a professional athlete that tore his rotator cuff. He was playing professional baseball. Do we have time?
Starting point is 01:57:39 Oh yeah, lay it on us. Well anyways, he tore his rotator cuff and he got surgery and the doctor goes, here, take these pills and I'll help you. And he goes, what are they? He goes, they're antler powder us. Well, anyways, he tore his rotator cuff, and he got surgery, and the doctor goes, here, take these pills, and I'll help you. And he goes, what are they? He goes, they're antler powder pills.
Starting point is 01:57:48 So he started taking them, and the pain went away. And he goes, nah. So he quit taking them, and the pain came back. So he started taking them, and the pain went away. And he actually started a company and was making those pills so athletes take them. I took it, and yeah, a lot of aches and pains went away. So there's something to it, just like the Asian culture. How old is that?
Starting point is 01:58:10 It's way older than ours, and I bet you they know a lot more than we do about stuff. Yeah. Corinne does. Yeah. She's only half Asian. Just ask her. She'll tell you. No.
Starting point is 01:58:22 She knows a lot more. She'd know twice as much. She'll tell you. I definitely haven't tried any of that, then. Maybe I'll, you know No, she knows a lot more. She'd know twice as much. She'll tell you. I definitely haven't tried any of that. Then maybe I'll, you know, make myself a human guinea pig. I do it to people and they go, is this good for your dogs? And I'll lick an elk antler split in half. I'll lick it.
Starting point is 01:58:34 It doesn't do anything. Oh, no, I imagine not. Oh, you know, what about making like antler toothpicks that you'd start chewing on? Maybe that's the new fad. There you go. Possibly. Thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you. start chewing on. Maybe that's the new fad. There you go. Possibly. Thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you. Yeah, thanks for coming. Yeah, man, appreciate it.
Starting point is 01:58:51 Hopefully I'll see you again sometime. Oh, I think so. Hopefully people call you up and sell you some sweet antlers. Here's the one deal, man. Or the hate man. If someone calls you and sells you some antlers and they say like, oh, hey, I heard your number on the show. You pick me out the coolest one there.
Starting point is 01:59:09 Not out of every batch, but like whatever. Send me a cool one out of there. Okay. Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll do a trade with you. I'll give you a couple of good cool sheds, but I need some autograph swag from you. That's a deal. From my friends.
Starting point is 01:59:23 That's a deal. Like I said, they think you're some sort of a celebrity. No, we're not going to spoil that for them. We're going to sign some stuff. We're going to sign some stuff. Yeah. And we're going to watch the mailbox for a sweet antler. No, I won't mailbox.
Starting point is 01:59:39 I'll bring it and let you pick them out. Oh, there you go. Stop by one of these times. It's getting better and better. All right. Tell everybody your name and the name of yourony shoffler rocky mountain antler company there you have it call him up some big pile he's waiting for you in his underwear in a hotel room in new mexico
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