The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 482: Flinging Arrows with Levi Morgan

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Steven Rinella talks with Levi Morgan, Nick Pinizzotto, Maggie Hudlow, Chester Floyd, Phil Taylor, and Corinne Schneider. Topics discussed: Competing against your future wife as a kid; white-tailed deer; Chester performing at all of the MeatEater Live Shows; Phil the Engineer’s live show; The MeatEater Podcast saving lives again; Test My Meat with the Warner Bratzler Shear Force Tender Tester; just how tender a yearling backstrap really is; check out all of our great whitetail content on The MeatEater website; play in the Caliber Battle brackets on themeateater.com; watch Wildtail: America’s Wildest Conservation Story, produced by the National Deer Association in partnership with state fish and game agencies; how an archery tournament works; when you’re the walking rangefinder; staying in the 10 and aiming in the 12; stable platforms; how target panic still rears its head; one pin on a mover; how some competitive archers can't hit a deer to save their lives; a big mistake is to aim where you want to hit; ducking to run; picking a hair on the deer; so many failure stories; representing your country at the world cup; and more.  Connect with Steve and MeatEater Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop MeatEater MerchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-t-l-i-t-e.com all right everybody welcome to the whitetail week episode it's like shark week but better even more dangerous uh and the okay see you're thinking i'm throwing out stray superlatives here but this is the honest truth the best archer in the whole wide world is here not like not like when you have a guy on he got like the biggest buck but in america not like that it's like the best archers here levi morgan i guess so well it's like it's not even a debatable point, right?

I mean, it depends on who you ask. If you ask some of my competitors, they'd probably argue that. But you beat them. Sometimes. Listen, we're just going to run with this. It's the best. I'm pounding the table that the best archer in the world is here, who I just found out um I don't

know until this morning that Levi Morgan's wife is a competitive Archer and they shot they played against each other at when they were nine yeah she wouldn't give them the time of day no she wouldn't I even called one of the organizations and like tried to get her number and they wouldn't give it to me so then uh but but when I, I quit in high school and when I came back in 2006, she was the reigning Women's Pro World Champion at the time.

What? Mm-hmm. So, then we started dating after that. Then you finally won her heart. Finally. She's still in it? No, she was.

We started, she competed until about four years ago when we had our five years ago we had our second child god and then she just kind of things got a little tough yeah she just wanted to be mom so you guys got four kids four yeah all right we're gonna dig into all that we're gonna dig into what it takes to be the uh best archer in the world and also the thing i'm interested in is how that translates to hitting whitetails okay there's probably a big difference there is a big big difference yeah no i've heard you talk about we're gonna talk about that also nick pinazoto am i saying this

right pinazoto pinazoto that's italian italian yes it is good we're brothers from the national deer association who you guys have heard us talk about a handful of times. He's also here. He's going to talk about an upcoming film that his organization did with various state wildlife agencies about white-tail people take a white tail deer and deer hunting for granted. And the reality is there are a lot of challenges. And when you look at the amount of money that deer generate for all species conservation, even threatened and endangered species, it's huge. The eight out of 10 people that buy a hunting

license hunt deer. The next closest is Turkey, like three out of 10. Oh wow. Yeah. So when you add a Turkey, elk, uh, you know and other species, it's still not half a whitetail. So yeah, the film seeks to get this in front of people. Deer hunters, first of all, who have, most of them have no idea about that. But, you know, suburbanites too, people that care about any wildlife need to understand

that if it weren't for deer, the management of those species would be in trouble. Now, you know, Jim Heffelfinger. We just spent some time with him in Calgary this week. He's going to write a thing about him and Dirk and Pat Dirk and the Whitetail writer are insistent that you now and then at least nod towards saying white-tailed deer. Not whitetails. Whitetails is a colloquialism. It's the, it's the white tailed deer.

You really sound like, you know what you're talking about when you run around saying, I like to hunt white tailed deer. My wife just gave me a hard time about that exact thing before I left. So yes. And you got to put the hyphen in there. I do it with a pause. my wife just gave me a hard time about that exact thing before I left. So yes. And you got to put the hyphen in there.

I do it with a pause. The white-tailed deer. Live tour. I'm pitching, I was just pitching Levi Morgan on our live tour date that we have coming up. And you're closer to Pittsburgh, right? Yeah. In Pittsburgh. And Chester, if I'm understanding right, you're closer to Pittsburgh, right? Yeah. In Pittsburgh. And Chester, if I'm understanding right, you're in for all shows.

I just, uh, just as of this morning, chatted with Katie. And you confirmed. And I confirmed. So our live tour has mainly become a Chester concert. I already, the minute Chester, when I found out that you were going to be able to open at all the shows and play music at all the live shows, my first call, he didn't pick up the phone, was to Hunter Spencer because I want him to make a Chester concert

t-shirt. Like the old style that has the dates listed on the back. Wow. That's big. So you got to get, we need to, can you take a picture of him with his glasses on and stuff? With his lab glasses. This could be the, this could be your concert t--shirt i don't want that to be the poster art man is his face badass is his face gonna be emblazoned on the side of the tour bus

if he can have do you have your guitar if you can hold your guitar and have those rubber glass those rubber goggles on it'd be a great concert t-shirt standing next to this thing jester so december 6 17th is the live show. We're doing, this is the order of dates. Now, we take a day off here and there. I wish I had it all lined up. Denver is December 6th. Kansas City is December 7th.

Pearl Harbor anniversary. But that's nothing to do with the show. Davenport, Iowa. Then we go on to Kalamazoo, Michigan. Oh, this isn't in order. Corinne, this is the most messed up list I've ever seen in my life.

Where's Detroit? I put Etcetera. Come on, you can't announce... How are you supposed to announce a tour with Etcetera? I put et cetera. Come on. You can't announce. It's like, how are you supposed to announce a tour with et cetera? Fine. It's only eight. You quit at like one, two, three, four, five, six.

Et cetera is two that Corinne chose not to include. Okay. What are we missing there? There's the Pittsburgh area. There's no show in Illinois. There's no show in Illinois. No. I can name them here. You can find all of these on TheMeatEater.com

backslash events. I want to talk about them right now. We've got Denver in the Mission Ballroom. I think that's an old list. Sorry guys. Great. This is what I'm talking about. I hate it Chester. We've got Kansas City at the Folly Theater. That's December 7. Denver is December 6.cember 9th at the capital

theater in davenport okay we've got then great job then kalamazoo december 10th state theater at the kalamazoo state theater we did state theater before and i've been there as i've told the story many times i've been there before um and i saw i think he's passed away this would be a good person for dead or alive dylan died or is he not dead bob dylan he's he's alive he's alive yeah that'd be a great person for the game dead or alive i saw bob dylan there at the state theater wow Long time ago. And then we did a live show there years ago. In 2019, we did a live show there. I think it's a pretty interesting theater. It's a great theater. It's kind of like, I don't know.

It's all decorated up. It's pretty. If that's the one that I'm thinking about. If I had more time, I'd tell you a good story about something that happened at that theater with my late friend, Eric Kern. Go on. December 11th, Detroit at the Royal Oak Music Theater in Michigan there. And then we've got Cleveland on December 13th.

You know who's going to join us for the Cleveland show? I'm lining up like local guests. That's why I'm pitching Levi Morgan on it for the ones you haven't got to yet. Yep. You know who we got for who I was just talking to for the, to see if he'll come to the Cleveland show. I think I've got a guess.

A good guess. Who? We got weights and fish. The walleye guy. Yeah. Yep. I'm going to, I might bring him his own Jersey and he can put his own Jersey on, um, Jason Fisher.

I was pitching it. I was pitching him on this idea of the art day. So I think hopefully we get him at the Cleveland show That'd be awesome Kevin Murphy, world's greatest small game hunter He wants to throw in on Cleveland So he'll be on stage at Cleveland Okay, great

Yep, are we going to get an extra day in there To actually fish or I'll have to look at the layout Alright, Pittsburgh That is December 14th What what's what's cleveland what date is cleveland chester's got those cheap rubber uh for you people listening chester's got those cheap rubber safety glasses because he's going to tell us he's going to tell us just how tender a whitetail fawn is everybody knows they're tender how tender? We're going to tell you.

Cleveland is December 13th at the Agora Theater. Okay, and then what's the next date? December 14th. There's no date of walleye fish. Gotcha. We'd have to get up early in the morning and fish walleyes. Oh, that's all right. Hold on a minute.

We'll figure it out. December 14thth we're in uh munhall pennsylvania that's the greater philadelphia area no the greater pittsburgh that's the greater pittsburgh area mess that up every time and that's what i'm trying to that's when we're trying to get levi morgan to come on stage and shoot his bow. You know, Nugent got in trouble for that. Did he really? In Ohio, not Pennsylvania. Because he used to do the Whiplash Bash.

Well, I went to the Whiplash Bash one time with my late friend Eric Kern. And Uncle Ted threw a bunch of jerky out into the crowd. And I picked a piece of that jerky up off the floor and me and Eric shared it. And he would shoot his bow. He would shoot his bow on stage.

And then he goes into Ohio and gets discharging a weapon within city limits. You're kidding me. No, but we'll see about, we'll talk about whether or not. We'll have various audience members hold up little targets and Levi will shoot those targets.

Been a while since I did that. So we're going to have to check with the insurance adjusters. Or maybe Chester could do like an apple on his head. We'll figure it out. I'm good. Keep going. December 15th in Philadelphia at the Kenswick Theater.

That's in Glenside, Pennsylvania. December 15th. And when the show opens, everybody will come in, the show's going to open, the show's going to open with some music by Chester. And then we'll get the show started. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out what kind of music I should play. I'm going to be very heavily involved in that decision.

Speaking of live shows, this is the most important one. I want at least consulting on it. Sure. I've got some good ideas for specific cities. Oh. Yeah. Is Clay going to join on stage?

Because after that thing you posted on Instagram. Oh, yeah. Do you think you can maybe play with Clay a little bit? Because Clay's coming to some of the shows. Of course. So Giannis will be there for every show. Giannis is there for every show. We're lining up guests.

We got Jordan Budd coming to a show. We're going to start working phones. Kevin Murphy lining up guests. We got Jordan Budd coming to a show. I'm going to start working phones. Kevin Murphy's throwing down on two shows he's coming to, so he'll be on stage for a couple shows. The shows occur in sections. All shows will have a trivia component for audience, give audience

chances to win stuff. All shows will have a Chester component. But the most important thing, this is the most important live thing. Phil? Yes. will have a chester component but the most important thing this is the most important live thing phil yes tell them about your song and dance routine well no he's in a cop phil's in a cop so phil's a uh thespian uh incredibly amateur hey i just do it for fun well no i did but i learned the other day that phil makes a little jingle on this stuff yeah occasionally yeah yeah he's a he's a he's a like a what's what's what sits between amateur and pro semi-pro or semi-amateur he's he's a semi-pro thespian yeah yeah that's right i'm doing a little a little play this uh no just in three weeks three weeks yeah uh so you guys doing. I'm doing a little play. Just in three weeks.

Three weeks, yeah. So, you guys are doing... Phil's doing a comedy. Yeah. Phil's always involved in community theater of some sort. Is it fair to call it community theater? I'd say like local theater. Yeah, community. Yeah, there's a bunch of different things. I mean, I just started doing it last year just for fun because my kid's getting into theater.

So, I auditioned with him kind of to make him feel comfortable. That wasn't the first thing you did? Well, since college. Yeah. The first thing in like 10 years. But I'm talking like the kind of stuff where you buy a ticket and go down. I mean, it's a professional production. Yeah.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Buy a ticket. It's not like going to see your kids like at the school play. There are ushers. You can buy some house wine in the lobby. Yeah. You can drink wine.

You got to buy. You got to pay to see them. So Phil's doing this. Yeah. And he's doing that right now, you got to pay to see them. So Phil's doing this. Yeah. And he's doing, right now he's doing a comedy. Yeah. In Bozeman's Ellen Theater. And we did a live show at the Ellen Theater before.

Yeah. I was not there. I think it was before I started working here, but. So Phil's doing this. Yeah, if you're in Bozeman, check it out. It's a 1930s slapstick comedy. Yeah, it's called You Can't Take It With You. It's a great cast.

Yeah. I mean, and then also me. Our tickets are on sale? Yeah, tickets are on sale. And when are the shows? It's the end of October? It starts October 20th and runs for two weekends.

So this information applies for people who live in Bozeman and are into community theater. So I'm not sure the percentage of your audience. What I like about it is this is that time of year when you got like a lot

of rotten tomatoes in your garden, you know? Oh, that'd be... Seasons winding i'm i got one i got setting off to the side for phil um i'm gonna bring down down on the show no it'll be good how much are there still tickets left how much are tickets phil oh yeah i think tickets started around either like upper 20s uh early 30s that's not how you talk about prices low Low 30s. I'm not talking about the year. You're not talking about Chester. No. You're talking about the... Yeah. So go down there and support Phil. When Phil steps out, it's a comedy, so I think you can probably applaud when Phil

steps out. Oh yeah, please do. I desperately need it because I definitely don't get that attention around this office. What's your costume? Oh, it's like a buttoned up suit. I think my, my character comes home from like a ballet. So we're all, we're dressed up to the nines.

And people will recognize you. I think so, yeah. You won't be obscured. I'm not wearing a mask or deformed. I'm not playing a John Merrick or anything.

Got it. So go support Phil. Uh, here's a topic. Meat Eater Podcast saves lives. Now, this is incredible.

We haven't hit this in a while. We haven't saved a life in a while. No, but we should have like a thing where we track how many lives we saved. Because what was another life we saved? Tourniquets. Multiple tourniquets. We had an emergency room doctor on just imploring people to carry tourniquets. And then we did the Campfire Stories close calls about tourniquets and and a number of people wrote in either

that They it informed how they applied tourniquets or at least they got a tourniquet Now we did what was that episode we did about the guy that got stuck in the toilet vault an American here on a stuck man, yep What was this show the great toilet vault an american hero and a stuck man yep what was this show called the great toilet rescue an american hero a stuck man and something something god i forgot the rest of that so we had we had some folks on the show who had rescued a man from a toilet vault where he climbed down there to get his phone out and got stuck. This led to a lot of people

writing in about other situations where people have gone into toilet vaults at boat launches and got stuck in the vault. A state trooper from Michigan wrote in. No, but this was recent because that episode was like a while ago.

No, this is fresh news This is like hot news This stuff is just It's so baffling to me Well, okay, I am a trooper with Michigan State Police So if you get pulled over in Michigan For speeding, it's probably this guy He says Today a DNR officer, my sergeant, and I

Were dispatched to a boat launch Within my post area So they get an emergency call from the boat launch. He, his sergeant, and a DNR officer, aka game warden, get dispatched. It was reported, this is him telling the story, it was reported

that someone was yelling for help. One of the post detective sergeants, he's getting mighty technical, I don't know what that means, I'm guessing that's a cop. One of the post detective sergeants was in the area. He responded and located a woman who was stuck in the septic pit of the outhouse at the boat launch. It turns out, people are going to be laughing, it turns out that boat launch septic pits eat people at an alarming rate. What was she trying to fetch? Her Apple Watch.

There could be a class action suit against Apple because it's iPhones and now an Apple Watch that these people are trying to dig out of there. She had dropped her Apple Watch into the septic pit. Now she was able to enter. Here's where the life-saving comes in. She entered through the toilet seat. Got down in there.

Okay. Got her watch. But couldn't get back out. Start screaming for help when a neighbor hears her cries. Now the first responders, this is back to the narration from the state trooper, the first responders on scene were trying to figure out how they could get her back out of the septic pit through the toilet seat. Now, listen carefully now.

Then he goes on to say this, quote, Thankfully, I had listened to the episode of the podcast when you talked about a similar situation. To everyone's surprise, I was able to remove the toilet. And this is an important part. When you're stuck in a vault, a toilet vault, go down in there, get your stuff. And when it's time to come out, that whole pedestal, as we learned on that episode, that pedestal is removable. So all these people stuck in all these toilets, it's unnecessary if you realize

that the pedestal is removable. You do not need to fit up out through the seat. I'm just trying to profile this woman. So he astonishes his colleagues by removing the pedestal. She's able to hop right out of there. So I just Googled an Apple watch cost between like

300 and 600 dollars like you could not pay me that much to touch no that blue goo no i would it's not just blue goo oh well you know that's what everything's swimming in like there i can't you don't have children no your your relationship with your relationship with fecal matter changes so much once you have kids i've never changed a diaper i have a niece it goes from like a it just it goes from something that's just a no-go yeah to being like it's not pleasant but i mean it's not the end of the world yeah it's kind of the attitude you get i would i think it's different with your own kids though. For sure. You learn how to walk through your house like this to the bathroom.

Don't touch anything. I feel like adult fecal matter has to be different than like children. It's different. But when I hear someone getting mauled or when I hear someone getting gored by a buffalo in the park I'm like yeah I can see that. When I hear

someone get stuck in a toilet vault because their phone I'm like yeah I can see that. When I hear someone get stuck in a toilet vault because of their phone, I'm like, yeah, I can see that. It's not the cost, it's the inconvenience. If you're on the road. What does your Apple Watch even do that you need to survive? I think of it as her phone. I think we should also just point out that the Michigan State Police

put out a news release. Mm-hmm. You know, so I guess this gets, this goes out to all, to all state police and detailing the situation.

But then just at the end, there's another public service announcement. If you lose an item in an outhouse toilet do not attempt to venture inside the containment area serious injury may occur so for people who didn't watch the listen to the first episode of this podcast we are spreading the message yet again yeah and there's a there's a public safety element to this too because

the guy that got rescued from the one here in montana right into the river first stop she went right into the river too oh this this uh news release says that she uh was when she was lifted out with a strap she went right into the river to uh wash herself off that's right head well if you're on a boat you maybe have a fishing pole like could you get a little more inventive than just sticking your body down i think an outhouse the guy that did it the guy that got stuck here was just traveling and just pulled into the you know wasn't fishing um okay ready chester ready okay chester is going to so this is the thing we've been messing with for a long time. Corinne and I actually feel bad about it because we wasted... I shouldn't say wasted. There's a machine called the Warner Bratzler...

Shear Force? Shear Force Meat Tender Tester. I had had an interaction with one of these years ago where some meat scientists were testing how tender beef was. And I was shocked to learn that there's a machine that applies a number to meat tenderness. So Chester and I have done a lot of different meats in the meat tenderness tester.

And Chester is going to demonstrate, walk us through it, Chester, what you have. We have got a yearling whiteitetail, right, Corinne? Yep. And Corinne seared this up last night. Just got the pan real hot, seared it on each side evenly,

and we're looking at about a rare cut, you know? Hold it up so I can see. Yep. It's about rare. And the way you do it is you take, we're going to take four core samples here that I bored out with this here little contraption. So if you're watching online, you'll be able to see the core sample. If you're not, it's like a core. Exactly.

It's like a little stainless steel hole cutter. Yep. And I cut the meat. I cut an inch off of this little piece here and i made these core samples and i went with the grain i cut with the grains they're all consistent and that's so when it goes into the shear to measure its tenderness it'll be cutting cross grain against the grain yeah got it. Got it. Which is important. And this thing measures in kilograms of force,

which is an international standard for testing how tender meat is. So we're going to throw it in there and we're going to do four, I don't know, maybe three. There's three good cores here. We'll do three tests, force tests, and then we'll get, you know, we'll average these out

and we'll get how actual tender this meat is. Got it. What's interesting about this is one of the things we're going to cover today is a letter just went out from the Michigan DNR basically begging deer hunters to kill does i the the dough i can't believe this the dough harvest in michigan is actually down the dough when i was a kid growing up michigan if you drew a dough tag you were so you would

like apply for dough tags and wait in the like licking your lips hoping to get a dope tag you were so you would like apply for doe tags and wait in the like licking your lips hoping to get a dope tag you know jr bob got a doe tag and everybody'd be like really excited about it they cannot get so agricultural damage you have issues of disease transmission you have issues of highway safety you have herd health issues just general herd stress issues and they man people are not shooting does and they're being begged to shoot does i don't live there anymore but it's like they're writing letters being like please please not that you can't shoot a buck get some does too and just don't know, what the hell is everybody eating? It's a national problem. It is.

Yeah. We, we, we put an article out just yesterday talking nationally about that issue. People not shooting enough does. I mean, we're both, Levi and I are both from Pennsylvania. We had the same system. You put in for a doe tag. Maybe you got one, maybe you didn't. Now you can get six.

And, and we know that most hunters won't even shoot one. Yeah. And so we're seeing that trend nationally where the buck harvest is actually equal to or even higher than the antlerless harvest. Yeah. And it's a problem. I don't, what do you think it is? I think it's a lot of things. I think you have more people really prioritizing mature bucks, which is good from the recreational end of things.

But what happens is they're sitting there making a judgment. Well, I'd really like to fill this doe tag, but if I shoot that doe, is that buck I'm after right behind her? Am I going to ruin that somehow? And then they say things like, well, I'm going to do it in the late season. Well, then the late season comes and everybody's burned out and nobody does it. But my friends that are serious about, like friends of mine that are serious about land management on their properties they hunt during the rut they hunt bucks yeah later they get serious about doe killing you know my buddy doug durnell they kill 30 does a year i

got another friend they kill 20 plus does a year off their property yeah um i got a friend in texas they kill hundreds of does a year off their property but they make a time and make it an effort and like after the regular hunting's done they get busy they're educated managers and i think that's the difference uneducated managers prioritize that buck so much that they don't understand that they're actually hurting their chances at a mature buck by not shooting those you know that's funny like this friend of mine in texas he's in the area there's no egg okay so it's not a it's not like a egg issue it's not protecting alfalfa and corn because he's in a non-ag area very rural there's not like a highway collision issue you ask those guys why they kill those they kill those

they like big bucks and he's like they try and lower stress yeah they're like lowering stress lowering overpopulation, and it's all about buck management. I think PA has just, they made it so hard to get doe tags forever. You had to go to the courthouse and get them and I'm like you could buy a buck tag at Walmart. Pink envelopes that just went

away this year. Now we can finally buy doe tags over the counter. I got my son's whole baseball team buying doh tags for the unit my farm's in i'm gonna take all the kids and just turn them that sounds like a blast yeah a good way to introduce kids to hunting yeah oh for sure man yeah dude my kids get so excited about doh tags all right chester tell okay walk through. That was the interlude. So we're looking at a scale from like two to six here on my guess on what this is going to be. Starting at five, it's like kind of unacceptable.

That meaning it's going to be tough. Well, we had that meat scientist from Purdue on. Nebraska. He was from University of Nebraska? Mm-hmm. Okay. What did I say? Purdue?

What the hell is that? Mm-hmm. Sounds like a, that's a big ag school though. I think Purdue is a big ag school too. University of Nebraska. That's what he was talking about is when you, when a customer goes and buys a steak and they're dissatisfied with their steak because it was too tough, it's a what now? Like a five.

Okay. satisfied with their steak because it was too tough it's a what now like a five okay meaning i think what what that means in the kilograms of force it's like unacceptable got it to a to a paying customer whatever unacceptable beef like a two is like holy cow that's a that's a tender piece of meat uh three is like you know that's still pretty good four is like, you know, that's still pretty good. Four is like, it's starting to get tough. Five is like. Got it. So two, if you're in this place and you get a steak and you're like, my goodness, that steak's tender.

Could be in the two. Right. If you're like, holy cow, that steak's unpalatable. It's a five. Yeah. Where you're like getting little bits of the steak out and put it in your napkin because you could never get it chewed through. Yeah.

It's like you're chewing a piece of gum. Yeah. Might be a five. Okay, so Chester cut the core out, and he loaded it into the shear force machine. Yep. And now what happens? Right now it's not zeroed out.

Well, I've been trying to zero that thing the whole time. We're going to add.319. You can't get it zeroed? There's no tear button on there? Tear-ay? It's like French for zero? No. It's not, but my scale has... I was like, is that really French for zero?

What does that mean? Terre, terre. Because it's on all my bow scales. We're going to subtract... Oh, it is? Yeah. What does that mean? 3-0.

Okay. From this. That's how you zero out both? Steve, do you want me to punch in on that? Math or... Do some live... Sure. Well, the fact that we can punch in on that? Math or... Do some live... Sure. Well, the fact that we can't get zeroed is distressing.

Well... Is it the weight of the shear? It could be. It could be, but they're all pretty consistent, so I feel like we could... That's okay. We'll just subtract. Phil, maybe don't zoom in,

because then people won't know the scales, that it's off. Well'll just subtract. Phil, maybe don't zoom in because then people won't know the scales that it's off. Well, Meteor Labs, we're like in a very professional lab setup here. Everything is accurate. Me and Chester got our lab. I'm sweating because I got my lab coat on. I got Corinne's lab coat today. The way we could do this, Corinne, is just write both numbers down, the actual number,

and then subtract that. Sounds good. Okay. So just so this year when you're out there sitting there and a whitetail, a youngster, whitetail fawn comes by and you're like, well, if I shoot that, I might not have a buck. Keep this in mind. How tender

is that thing that you let just walk past? And just by cutting into this, I think it's going to be... Acceptable. Acceptable. Exceptional. He hit the button. Now it's shearing the meat.

Huh. I've been very intrigued about this machine. Oh. That is some tender meat. Oh, we did cut. 8.2. We're at an 8. machine. That is some tender meat. 1.82. We're at an 8.2. Minus 0.3. Also 1.5, basically.

I feel like we don't subtract it. I don't know. Because it's like, I don't know. What do you guys think? It's like taking that measurement at the sheer. We're going to call Dr. Chris. We'll just do both. What are you doing both of?

And we're going to do that number and we're going to still record that. And then we're also going to subtract that. Got it. Point. Right. 3-0. And just, just for consistency's sake, maybe

we do like another one. Yeah. Yeah. Do one more. Next time we do this we're gonna get the meanest old buck you've ever seen man well and run them through there well like the kind of buck that like eats rabbits we we uh we have a little mini series called test my meat uh throughout the next couple of weeks we'll have some videos on social media on instagram Instagram, maybe on TikTok, where we test, what did we test?

Gator. Old elk. Old elk. Meat that's been in a freezer for a decade. Yep. People just sent us all kinds of stuff. Sandhill crane, I think. Yeah, we got crane. People sent us all kinds of stuff to test. Old bear meat, not old bear meat, tough bear meat. We had a guy send in a bear, he's like,

you can't eat this bear. It's so tough. And we put, we ran that through the Warner Braxler. I like this idea of getting like baselines of meats. Cause then I think we need to do like meat eater test kitchen. Be like, how can we take this gnarly old meat and make it more tender?

Exactly. You hitting it Chester? Yeah. It'd be interesting to take a piece of shoulder meat, run it through the tenderness tester And then slow cook one and run it through the tender Or do like a brine do like a marinade Do like a slow smoke That's a good idea

That is some tender This is what I do in my kitchen all the time I just don't have a cool machine to test it So what did that come out to Chester 1.77 Kilograms of force Two is tender Two is tender Like real tender 1.77 kilograms of force. Two is tender.

Two is tender. Like, real tender. So, when you're looking at that whitetail phone walk-by, he's more tender than tender. He's more tender than tender. Or she. Or she. Based on what we were just talking about.

So, Corinne. Oh, yeah, she. Hopefully a she, yeah. Button box, that's frowned upon. Yeah. Well, don't start that, because then you complicate box that's frowned upon corinne and people get nervous this is a just so everyone knows this is a back strap right right and when did you shoot this deer and do you know how, it was like cull at the end of the season. I think it was December. December? I think it was December.

So it was last year. It's been sitting in there not quite a year. Good job, Corinne. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Mm-hmm. All right. Maggie Hudlow is going to come in, and since it is Whitetail Week, Maggie Huddle is going to come in and tell us about some highlights from Whitetail content.

Yeah. So one of our most exciting things we've got going on is from our firearms expert, Jordan Sillers, because we know how much everyone loves to complain about caliber battles so now we are letting all of you listeners readers interact we are doing a uh whitetail week caliber battle bracket march madness style it is uh october madness so you know, Shark Week, March madness. We're ripping everybody off here. It's going to be great. So we have a few rounds. You get to cast your vote on TheMeatEater.com in the comment section below the articles of what caliber you think is the best whitetail cartridge.

And whatever caliber wins that one goes on to the next round. And kind of another interesting twist to this is everybody is picked around. So Clay's got one, Spencer's got one, Garrett's got one, Mark's got one. So we'll see who picked the best cartridge. And the best, the listener's choice, audience choice favorite will emerge. Yes. And what's the criteria for the best? It's just your personal opinion, right?

Highest public, yeah, but the highest public support. Yeah. Gotcha. Like, meaning like what takes a deer down really well without ruining the meat ruin as much meat. Like, you know what I'm saying? Well,

yeah. And it's like, it's a measurement of public opinion, correct? It's also like the, the article itself is structured like Jordan's other caliber battles. So he takes into account like the availability of it. Um,

the shoot ability. I forget. There's one more category in there. Gosh, I read so many of these things. I think I know it by heart. So people can read these things and kind of make up their own mind if they don't already have an opinion. And when you do go on these and comment, you can just say like, oh, I think it's the 308 Winchester or I think it's a 65 Creedmoor. And you can also say why. So if you are very opinionated on this thing like you

can let everybody know or you can just say like oh it's this one. So that's how you can cast your vote. What do you predict will win? Oh it's people really like the 6-5 Creedmoor and they really like to talk about it and I feel like people who like the 6.5 Creedmoor and they really like to talk about it.

And I feel like people who like the 6.5 Creedmoor are very opinionated. So that's kind of where I'm leaning towards because I feel like that's the most vocal gun support group. And it's a pretty trendy round. It's very trendy. Doesn't my kid shoot? Yeah. Oh, it's great. My boyfriend's got one and I shot it the other day.

I was like, did that shoot? I didn't feel it. You sure you want to shoot that gun, honey? No, I have my kids shoot SIG crosses with suppressors. And my 10-year-old daughter, she's made out of cables. She's very thin. Like tough, like thin and she shoots that and just can just shoot shoot shoot shoot that's awesome not getting kicked you know she kind of laughs after she

shoots because she's like so amped up that it's going to do something bad to her and then just and then kids confuse too they confuse the they confuse the noise with kick. So once you really mitigate, I also put headphones on her and it's suppressed. And just because it's not so overpowering the loudness, she feels like she translates that to a lack of kick. It's super helpful, man. That's awesome.

I used to dread shooting my gun. Yeah, to not to like. When I was a kid, I dreaded pulling the trigger. trigger yeah learn not to flinch like that young sure yeah well my kids i'm like baby and i'm putting head like all the noise protections he's got his my son's got a six five cream or two and my dad was like leaning me up against a tractor tire with a 30-06 and right tissue paper right it's like good good luck. It's like, okay. That's really why I can't hear anything either. I think my first rifle was like a 7 mag

with no ear protection and like, here you go. You know? Oh, yeah, zero ear protection. God, that was awful. I remember the first time I shot a shotgun. Of course, it was like a sawed-off 12 gauge. Knocked me on my ass. And I was like, okay, ready to go.

And two, deer hunting, like, my old man and his buddy Eugene or whatever, I remember them, I got to be old enough to hunt with a gun. I remember they filled a gallon milk jug full of water, marched across Eugene's yard, set it on a fence, pulled probably 60 yards out.

And if you hit that milk jug, I was like, all right, let's, pull it probably 60 yards out. If you hit that milking chug, it's like, let's go! Good enough. Good enough. Close enough. Your ears are ringing for three minutes. Oh, yeah. Hey, folks.

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onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. All right, we're going to get into a film you really got to check out, Wild Tale, America's wildest conservation success story. Nick lay it out. Yeah. Yeah. It's we're, we're very proud of this.

It's a great film. Uh, it's one aspect of a larger initiative called the Southeast deer partnership, which is made up the 15 Southeastern us States, uh, as part of the association for fish and wildlife agencies. So we have a lot of partners on this. Uh, the company that we worked with to do this is called Strategic Digital Services. Joe Clemens is the executive producer. They just did an outstanding job. We couldn't be happier about it. And the reason we did this, number one, because it's never been done before, but number two, as we talked about at the beginning, there are so many critical things that people don't know about deer other than don't hit one with my car or where

can I go shoot one? They don't think about them a whole lot. And so a documentary of this type, we thought would be a really good vehicle to get this in front of folks to watch it. And not just hunters, like I said, but anybody, uh, that cares about wildlife at all. So, um, it's, it's been, um, you know, producing this thing has been fun, but now that it went from research on the front end where we had to go and look at the numbers, because that's something else that was never done. We would talk all the time about how important deer are, but we couldn't really put numbers to it. And so we worked with responsive management to do some survey work. And this is again, dialed in on those Southeastern

States. Now we do have plans and I've just talked about broadening, broadening this out nationwide. Um, but we found some critical things. I mean, just, just in the Southeast, um, 209,000 jobs because of deer hunting, uh, $5.5 billion in salaries because of deer hunting, not just in the Southeast. And so we want to figure out what this is nationally because it's huge. In the Southeast. Just in the Southeast. And so we want to figure out what this is nationally because it's huge. And as I said at the outset, eight out of 10 people that buy a hunting license are hunting deer. Every time somebody hangs up the rifle or the bow and doesn't do that anymore, it has an impact on these numbers. Pittman-Robertson dollars is something

that you've talked a lot about on the show. So in 2001, there were $679 million that came out of that fund. Through the analysis, we found out about 294 of that is just from deer hunting. Now that's nationally. Yep. So it's a huge number. And so this project originally was, I'll give Larry Williams from the Fish and Wildlife Service credit for this. We had a conversation about five years ago saying, hey, this is a critical issue. Nobody's talking about

it. We need to shed some light on this. And so he went and found the resources and help pull this together and to do the research, which I said is phase one. And now do the documentary wild tale and blast this out to a whole bunch of people so that they can see it uh and and get the word out about this issue because again if you're a bird watcher living in iowa you should care about deer and we think people don't for the most part so it's important uh i sat for interviews in the film but then now i haven't had a chance i'm a little backed up on film watching i sat for interviews in the film i haven't watched the film yet which i'm excited to do and i'm gonna do it this weekend clay newcomb sits for interviews yep who else you got i mean you got tons of biologists yeah we got hunters from the states uh that the southeastern

states for sure folks from my organization uh dustin lynch very popular country music artist is the narrator uh as you said you and clay are in it as well and so really went out and got you know all the top people the top voices to talk about this issue from all the different aspects when you cover a lot of very interesting aspects that I know people don't think about in the film clay does the same thing we have the state wildlife biologist on there talking about what it means to their state you know what else funny is funny about Clay? He said, he goes, I don't want you to take this wrong way, but I didn't expect it to be so good.

No, I love it. He loved it, man. Yeah, he told us. Yeah, he was at one of the premieres. So we've been premiering this thing in different places in the country. I'll actually be in Virginia next week. Oh, is that right? Yeah, yeah.

So we're doing premieres. I'd love to do one out here sometime if there's a possibility to do that. Oh, we'd love to do that. Yeah, so that right? Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing premieres, uh, you know, love to do one out here sometime if there's a possibility to do that. Oh, they would. Yeah. So we'd love to do that. But, um, you know, when, as part of the research, state, state biologists were polled about what do you feel the importance is of deer to your, the funding of your agency?

And out of 10, it was 8.4. And so even though, you know, especially a deer biologist, I'll tell you, a lot of them don't like the public because there's very, there's no more polarizing animal than deer, but they recognize that they really are buttering the bread of the conservation of all species. So most of a state wildlife's budget is funded through things that trace all the way back to deer and deer hunting. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's the critical thing we have to have to get out there. Uh, the film, as I said, right now we're premiering. So doing that across the country, but it's going to be available, uh, for rent or purchase

on Amazon and iTunes and Google play on October 27th. So that's coming up very soon. Uh, but the main goal of this, it's, it's not to sell the movie as much as it is to get this in front of as many eyeballs as possible. So that, you know, I tell people in our organization, um, I have a dream someday that somebody will join the National Deer Association that has no intention of shooting a deer. Yeah. And that may sound crazy, but if you look at Ducks Unlimited, one of the things I'm, that's very impressive about them is people buy duck stamps and they don't even care to shoot a duck, but they care about conservation. We need to, to make that happen with deer.

And, uh, you know, Kip Adams is our chief conservation officer. He leads this project for us. And that is, we were texting about this before I come out here. That's the chief concern. Deer are conservation, whether it be threatened and endangered species, all the way through songbirds. They matter. It's important.

When Phil's done down there at the L and we should do, maybe we can do like a screening down there or something like that. What do you think about that, Phil? How many seats are in that place? I honestly don't know. It's a couple hundred though,

I'd say. Oh yeah. Yeah, a few hundred. That'd be fun. We should see if you guys could bring your film To this town Yeah we'll do it

Absolutely We'd love to do it We'll promote it That's what we want to hear Chester get up and play a song Even better yet Will you wear the goggles too At all these things

People are gonna They're gonna show up Expecting to watch You know Be there for conservation And then I'm gonna get up there And sing a song People are gonna be like Who the hell is this guy Yeah you up there and sing a song people would be like who the hell is this guy yeah you need to get like a pyrotechnics package and stuff yeah i need to do

something just really get everyone going and sparks and stuff shooting everywhere yeah to clay's point real quick though i understand why he would say that because it's even better than i thought it would be oh really oh so you're guilty too absolutely i mean it's a yeah it's a bunch of redneck deer hunters and biologists putting a film together. What could go wrong, Levi? But no, I mean, that's again where I thought strategic digital services really brought that professional. I mean, you watch this thing, it's as good as any documentary you'll watch on anything. So we're proud of it. So layout again for folks, how to check it out. So you tour it. Do you got tour dates coming up? Right now, the last one we have is scheduled for October 4th in Richmond, Virginia. We've already been in Kentucky, Arkansas, and Nashville.

And so that's what we have scheduled. Is it relevant to Northern audiences? I think it is. We want to take it there. So we've just had conversations in calgary about how do we now make this the national yeah you meant like northern us right yeah yeah yeah but it is it absolutely is relevant because the numbers you know they're going to be a little bit different for each region but i think the main point is driven home that deer really matter

beyond just something you you shoot or avoid with your car yep yeah and then and then tell people again how to go so if they want to go see it and not catch it live how do they go see it yep so on october 27th will be available on amazon itunes and google play and if you want to see information on on the film you just go to wild tale movie.com and it'll uh it'll show you everything you need to know to find it great and then uh tell us a little bit about national Deer Association too, because I think that like people know, and I'm a lifetime member and supporter of Rocky Mountain Out Foundation. So a lot of times hunters will have, you know, hunters want to do habitat work and benefit of the things they love to hunt. So Ducks Unlimited is primarily, you know, very hunting friendly, hunter focused organization. Focused on ducks.

You have Quail Forever, Pheasant Forever, where people that love to hunt quail, love to hunt pheasants, um, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, people that love to hunt elk. Um, I think it's maybe less widely known that there's a organization that works on behalf of deer specifically. So plug that out for

folks. Yeah. So we've been terrible at promoting ourselves. Imagine that, you know, we're so focused on, on deer and the, and the habitat part of it. We've been around for 35 years. We were originally known as the quality deer management association, uh, until about three years ago, when we merged with the national deer Alliance to create the national deer association. So, uh, yeah, our, our, uh, mission is to ensure the future Deer Association. So yeah, our mission is to ensure the future of wild deer, wildlife habitat, and hunting, which should be, you know, core to a, that we said eight out of 10 people buy a hunting license. So a lot of people ought to care about that. And we really are the only organization that from a deer perspective that

digs into the science. So we do a lot of interpretation of the science, everything from deer diseases, all the way through how to grow a great food plot, how to kill something, all of those things. As I said yesterday, we just had the article talking about doe harvest from Lindsey Thomas Jr., our chief communications officer. So it's educational, it's also entertaining,

but we also do a lot of policy work as well. I tell people that any day of the week, there's probably 100 hundred different bills across the country that have some impact on deer and deer hunting. And so we have, you know, Toren Miller, a policy guy out there doing policy work in the states, in the federal government, so spending time in DC. So we're white collar, we're blue collar, we're biologists. And you know, I'm really proud of what we've done.

What I'm not proud of is we haven't done the best job of telling people about what we've done. So, uh, Wildtail will help us do that. Um, being on shows like this, our relationship with you all, uh, doing the tour right now with, with, uh, Mark Kenyon and going around and looking at all the conservation projects that we're working on together. I think three of those projects are ours. Uh, the Back 40 that we, uh, got through you all we've had.

How's the old back 40 doing? It's doing awesome. I was asking Mark about that recently. Yeah. We can't get rid of Mark, but other than that, it's going great. He seems to always show up there, but just this year, I think we had, uh, six, six or seven hunters on the first field to fork event that we had out there this year. We're successful. Oh, is that right? Killing deer. Yeah. And we'll get back and we'll, and we'll make six or seven more people

successful. So we're taking a lot of deer there. We've now developed relationships with neighbors out there who are letting us come on their property. For doe harvest and stuff? Yeah. Because when it started and you know, this is Michigan and you've been on the property, not everyone is excited about this idea. We're going to bring people in and shoot all these deer in their neighborhood. Right? But it's coming around and people are kind of embracing it so we have used the back 40 as a model for it i think we're i think we're doing with it what you all had hoped we would do with it that's great we're very proud of that i always felt that the um squirrel numbers were

disappointing to me out there i saw that episode how's that coming along you guys doing a lot of squirrel improvements i was like bringing in hundred year old Oak trees and planting them. We'll have to put, we'll have to add that to the list. We do have a local branch out there, which is very helpful. So it's local volunteers that are managing that land. We pick on Mark, but you know, he's part of that effort that helps do that. And so we, we can't, you know, it's hard for us to do it from national organization, but our branch does it. And I will put on the list squirrel habitat. Great.

So you had six people get their first deer? It might've been seven. Yeah. Just our first hunt of the year out there. That's fun, man. Already this year. This year. Yeah.

This season, early season. Yep. It's great. And getting along with the neighbors good. It seems to be. Excellent, man. Excellent. All right, everybody.

Check out Wild Tale,ica's wildest conservation success story um set for release on october 27 on amazon itunes and google play so you'll go see phil cheer him on no thanks um and then and then race home and watch wild tale do the dates line up for that plan for that evening that's a hell of a date night yeah i think you can make it work have some coffee beforehand you'll be fine all right levi morgan um i want to dig back into oh hold on maggie are we good or we got we got more we want to talk about oh for white tail week yeah did i skip anything i mean we've we got a whole lot that we're going to be putting out on White Till Week. It's worth taking a look at the meat eater site.

We've got articles from Tony Peterson and Mark Kenyon. We've got a video from Levi. We've got lots of video content. Check out the meat eater site. Check out Wired to Hunt. We'll be putting out fresh white till content more than you can consume every day. All right, perfect. Now, Levi Morgan, 16-time world champion.

But here's the thing I'm important in. Let's pick it back up with you and your wife. You competed against each other at nine years of age. Yeah. In the IBO, there's a class called the Cub Class. And so when you're really young, you just all shoot kids shoot against kids. And so when you're really young, you just all shoot, kids shoot against kids.

And so probably until I was... Is she older than you? A year older. Samantha Klein was her name back then and it was like man, I had a huge crush on her then but I dominated the Cub Class. That was

my glory days. Is that part of that 16-time world champion? No, that's all professional since I turned professional. But, yeah, no, I was a little kid in jean shorts and knee socks and hiking boots and a polo shirt tucked in it. So she didn't like, she wasn't impressed. Did you say you quit for a while? Yeah, in high school.

What happened there? I know you got into other baseball and basketball stuff. Yeah, so when I was, I think the last tournament I shot was the IBO World Championship when I was 14 as an amateur and won that. Set a world record and walked away from the sport. What was the world record? It was the first time that ever been cleaned no eights, all tens through 50 arrows. So I never missed a 10 through 50 arrows but walked away yeah i would just walk away like dramatically no no just you know my dad was always my coach and

it was just one of those things where he always demanded if i would he was going to take me around to compete nationally that i was going to put in the work and um it was just one of those things where i knew with high school, I was starting high school, I wanted to play sports. Girls were coming into the equation. Oh, Amanda. She's out of the picture, though. Samantha?

Oh, Samantha. Don't talk about Amanda. Samantha was out of the picture. Samantha Klein. Samantha Klein is out of the picture at this point. Yes. And so I just knew I wasn't gonna be able to put into the sport what i needed to compete at a high level so i just decided hey if i want to come back

to it later i will and i just focused on school and sports and just uh so when i graduated i knew like i had this desire to to go back and and dig back in so what was the age? I got two things I want to know now before it just set this up. First off, uh, what, at what age did you shoot your first arrow at a deer? At a deer would have been, um,

probably like, I guess different than hitting one. Yeah. I would have been probably eight or nine. Okay. Yeah. And we, where I grew up,

you guys were hunting family. Oh yeah. That's, that's the whole way I got into it. My dad was a big, big hunter. So he just started going to local tournaments and took me along just to get better at shooting. And we grew up in the Carolinas hunting all game lands there. So he used to tell me, you're going to get one opportunity a year, so make it count.

And it was like, that was the truth back then. Like we didn't see a lot. We would go two weeks and maybe see one or two deer. You mean just hunting public ground? Yeah. Yeah. Got it. So his thing was like, don't let the shoot and be the limiting factor.

Exactly. Yeah. When you get an opportunity, make it count. And I did not the first few years I bow hunted. But I think I killed my first deer with a bow when I was 12 on that game land in South Carolina. And it was a 10 point. It was a nice point and it was nice yeah I mean but for then it couldn't have been any bigger to me you know but so were you at

were you sitting to stand by yourself at nine years of age oh yeah so I shot with my first year with a rifle at 10 in an old summit climber with a 270 by myself caliber battle yeah I can't have a caliber battle yeah I can't imagine turning my 10 year old point for the 270 but it was just would you get scared being up there no i get scared at dark that's what i'm saying yeah yeah when i had when i was i always remember this when i was a little kid and i didn't start setting a tree by myself in michigan you had to be 12 to hunt with a bow i can't remember if i started like i started gun hunting a little bit earlier than you're supposed to like you're supposed to be at that time, you had to be 14 to hunt with a gun, but we'd usually get started a little earlier. Yeah.

I'm pretty sure this was against the rules. Against the rules. What I was doing. Yeah, it was just like, I guess my old man just looked at it like, well, he was ahead of the curve. Right. Because in the end, the states did decide, most states decided that it's a family decision. Right, yeah. And he just made it a family decision before it was a family decision.

But I remember, man, being in that tree stand at 12 and just being fine. Yeah. And it'd get dark and you had to wait for the old man to come around. And you'd be like, what is that guy doing? Every time I thought he left me. And just praying to see that flashlight coming through the trees, man. You know, oh, it used to scare me. Because I used to go, we had this big ravine on this farm. We'd hunt and you'd go down to the bottom of this ravine, dude.

And it seemed like you were like in like, you're like in Lewis and Clark country. Oh, yeah. You're talking about that ravine. We had two-way radios. Oh, you did? But my dad wouldn't let me talk on it. It was, we had this Morse code thing where i had to oh you had to click it because he was like you're gonna spook all the deer so i was like okay i just randomly start clicking it and

hoping he answered but yeah so he'd come pick you up yeah but like you said some nights it's an hour after dark i'm up there in tears like something happened and the rule was i couldn't get down until he got there that's what we had and every stump takes his turn looking like a bear exactly yeah yeah so are you toughing up quick i think oh i think so man yeah um how does a tournament work like like lay out the yardages and target size and stuff it's consistent right i mean like every tournament you go to is the the what do you call it the course i mean right okay of course the course is the same right no it's totally different so so they so like indoors it changes oh no indoor archery is um would be called feta archery or nfaa so that's all just the same yardage the same face doing the same

thing every shot it's more like turn your brain off and just repeat okay and that's like that because that's, that's what I'm trying to think of is differentiate what people might be familiar with, with watching the Olympics, for instance. Right. To, to what you're doing. Yeah. And the Olympics is the same, but outdoors it's like, you know, 50 meters or 70 meters, whatever it is now. Um, and they just stand there and just shoot the same yardage. So what, and I shoot those organizations as well., the NFAA, and I've had success there. But what I really love is 3D.

And so that's the course. It's like a trail shoot almost where there's no range finders. Every target's a different distance. It's like hunting simulation type. And what are the yardages? Why not be in a net case? So it's zero to 50 approximately. And so, you know, it it's just one you might go to

a black bear target that's 38 and then you shoot that one score go to the next one and it's a coyote target at 51 down a good canyon you know so it's just every shot's different and then is a 10 uh how's it how's it scored out yeah so you, in the ASA, it's a little different than the IBO. The ASA, the 10 is always kind of par. And like if you're a golfer, like that would be, they say a 10 is your friend. And I agree in a way, but if you want to win, it's kind of not your friend. I mean, um, then you have a 12, um, which is a pretty risky shot. Um, if you missed a 10, you're an eight, you miss that, you're a five. Um, and then If you miss the 10, you're an 8. If you miss that, you're a 5. And then if you miss the whole target, it's a 0.

So the rings just get bigger and less. What does the 12 wind up being? So the 12 sits down like the 10 is like a 5-inch circle, and then the 12 is in the lower back corner of the 10 ring. So it's kind of risky. Like if you shoot at that and hit low. You're flirting with the eight. Yes, you're flirting with it.

If you hit low, you flirt with the eight. And then in the finals, we have what's called a 14. So it's a bonus and it's up by itself in the corner of the eight ring. So you're flirting with the five. It's like, if you go for that and you miss, there's no par. Like you're dropping, you know?

So I know I've shot in the past and there's like, I think how it works is five and then eight, 10 and 10 X. Okay. Yep. So that was the old IBO rules. Okay. So it was a center X in the 10 ring. Yeah.

And that was when Cabela's had the NABH and the Tour, and they broke ties with the Xs. And when I said when I was 14 and shot a 500, so the 500 was 50 out of 50 targets, that's all 10s, and it was an X at that point, but they don't do the X anymore. So the IBO, that's an 11 now. The center ring is an 11. And ASA, the lower ring is a 12. So now it's all bonus

rings there's no x or it's tie breakers or own bonus rings but yeah so 500 was the highest score i could shoot at that time because there was no bonus rings and so walk walk folks through what the what the range is like like number of targets how long it takes to shoot the course how many arrows you're going to shoot yeah so for qualifying in a you know like a major 3d event we'll shoot 20 targets on a friday 20 targets on saturday so 40 total you'll have uh four to five man groups um takes about three and a half to four hours to shoot the course um and then at the end of that 40 targets they take the top five and then we go into the finals on saturday night um and then shooting for the win and shooting um so there'll be five in the open pro five in the women pro

so down the line yep and uh when you're doing that is there the no range finder thing surprises me like that's are you commiserating with other shooters no no no so you're keeping what's in your head in your head yeah you can't talk about it you can't um hint about it you can't do any of that so are you able to observe them closely the targets no no are you with the other shooters are you standing right next to them yeah like we're standing next to each other judging the these yardages and it's just a educated guess so i'm and you keep your judgment to yourself oh yeah for sure got it and then um you know it's like you're using everything everybody thinks that they call me a walking range finder and i'm not at all you know i'm not i'm like if you only knew

like the numbers that went through my head before i shot that it's it's just a good decision like you're listening to how long it takes your competitor's arrow to get there you're listening and you're using everything around you to like fine-tune that window of yardages that it could be then you have say after everybody and after like it's my turn to shoot and i'm like it could be 42 it could be 45 now i have just to make a smart play with that window of yardages that i think it could be to definitely stay in the 10 and give myself a chance to hit a bonus ring. Yeah. I was curious what, uh, so let's say you're talking to the 40 to 50 yard range. Obviously the exact number is helpful. Yeah. What, um, what's just like, what's, what's a good

guess? Let's look at the known distances, 51 yards. Right. Right. What is too far off with your guess? It depends on where you're aiming. And me personally, I aim at every 12. I can't help it. You're shooting for 12s. Yeah, so I have to play my safety with my numbers. So if it's 51 yards, the perfect play would have been 51 and a half for me. It gives you a little bit of room to make a weak weakest shot and still hit a 12. And if I make a

perfect shot, I might clip the top of the 12 too, but it definitely keeps me in the 10 ring. And then what, what talk about the gear you guys use and what the regulations on gear is? Uh, yeah, we, um, we're allowed, you know, binos and we're shooting everybody for the most part is shooting a lens and our scopes, um, three to five powers, probably the most part is shooting a lens in our scopes um three to five power is probably the most common back when i was younger in my early 20s i won everything with no lens i just shot an up pin no lens but everybody's shooting 35 to 40 inch axle to axle bows long stabilizer deals you know very stable platforms for that um but no range no range finders, no electronics, um, in our binos,

none of that stuff. So. Back tension release. I go back and forth between a back tension and a thumb button. Um, cause target panic still rears its head every once in a while. I've dealt with it my whole life. And so,

um, I'll shoot a thumb button really light cause I shoot that the best. And then when I feel those demons coming on, I switch to a hinge release and shoot that for a year and then go back and just kind of back and forth. Gotcha. Talk about what you use for sight. So for tournaments, I'm using what's called an Excel Achieve. And so it's one pin on a mover pretty much for people that hunt. And you got to calibrate a tape, obviously. Yeah, down to the, people that hunt. And you got it, you got a calibrated tape obviously.

Yeah, it's down to the, I mean, you can set it to the 10th of a yard. No kidding. Yeah. And so like one click is just like so minute. And so it's just a very micro adjustable tunable sight and shooting like a 10 thou blue fiber. So it doesn't starburst. So you can really pinpoint aiming and running a light kit to that like an lp light that you can dim down so you can have a battery device on there on your bow yeah

so you can but nothing that projects no it can't project light it can only be to light your pin yep um and so you know now these the bows now we're literally shooting them i'm shooting them pretty much out of the box when i was 20 you took them apart and rebuilt them you know you had to know how to pretty much build a bow back then limb pockets were sloppy um you're shim and cam shim and limbs you know i should have had a sponsor from jb weld when i was 20 because that's how i built stuff so it's all right yeah it's changed so at what age were you messing with your own bow? I was really lucky to grow up in an area, had a ton of really good talent in that Western North Carolina circuit. Some of the first guys that won a ton took me under their wings. My dad was really

my only coach on the mental and shooting side of things. But I had some really good mentors like Scott Cope and an older guy named Dave that, that took me under and just showed me how to work on bows and showed me why when things would go wrong, why, how to build arrows, how to tune. Um, I would say probably 15 to 20, uh, even though I wasn't competing, I was learning a lot from like the Scott Cope. So 18 was my rookie year when I graduated and Scott Cope that year, I learned more about bows than I'd ever learned in my entire life from hardships. Cause my rookie year, I shot as good as I do now, but it was the little things that I wasn't doing that kept me from winning. And little things from a gear

standpoint, gear standpoint meant, you know, just the way I was attacking the range, everything. But yeah, mostly just my setup type stuff. What percent do you think, when it comes to success in a tournament, this might be hard to answer, what percent is equipment and what percent is mental? Because everybody's probably got good gear, right? Yeah, it's 99% mental. Because everybody's got access to the same stuff.

There's no secrets. Yeah. No, and then you stand on the practice range of the bags, there'll be 300 shooters. And if you said, pick, if you can't see the faces, just off the groups in the bag, who's going to win? They all look the same. Everybody shoots just as good pretty much,

even through the amateur ranks at these competitions. There's incredible shooters, but it's the little things and your plan, strategy. Hold on. Back that up for a minute. Tell me that again. So if you walk up and you got 300 shooters. On the back, like practice bags.

Okay. So like there's a bag line. So like pre-tournament practice bags. Yeah, and everybody's out there just checking tapes, checking their equipment. And like the top amateurs are shooting groups like at 50. So you wouldn't be able to stroll down groups and see like, oh, this guy's all over the place.

This guy's tight. I mean, occasionally, but for the most part, the people that show up to these tournaments are very top-level archers. Like in a controlled situation, they're going to all shoot good. But when that horn sounds But it's when you get, when that horn sounds and it's for score,

you know, that's when everybody starts going away and it's just like the pressure and knowing you can't make a mistake and people's mental approach. It's just those little mental game, man. It's gotta be, it's insane because you know, most sports you have that,

that adrenaline spike and you use that like football or baseball or basketball to run faster hit harder throw further you're like crushing gates against your head exactly in archery that's your enemy like you got to keep that suppressed right and so with that being like such a huge factor like being able to control your stress how does that translate into the deer woods? Yeah, big time. Do you think it's like, are you more relaxed there than in the tournaments? No, I'm worse. Really?

I'm way worse in a deer woods. Yeah. Because it's such an uncontrolled environment, you know, and like you don't know how long that deer is going to stand there. And I've seen some of the best shooters in the world that couldn't hit a live deer to save their life. Because of what? They just freak out and rush. They're just freaking out. I think most people's mistake deer hunting

is that you feel like it's constantly about to run. And so like, I really, when we started filming our hunts is when I learned the most about myself and hunting is because I would feel so rushed and make mistakes rushing and then go back and watch and I'm like there was so calm oh there's nothing to rush for yeah it was why was I in such a hurry so I really started to slow myself down but but competitions has made me do that as well just how I mentally approach those big moments and when my body's telling me to like hurry hurry hurry and how to turn that and just really slow

down and hyper-focus. Do you think doing both helps? Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, I'm coming out of my highest stress tournament season in August and right into hunting season in September, and so I think most people bow hunting pick their bow up maybe a month before season, and they haven't felt any pressure, any stress. They shoot by themselves in the backyard and then the first time they're under that is when that deer of a lifetime or big buck or elk is standing in front of them and they just crumble that that stuff about a month before in your yard by yourself really resonated it's just the way it is or i have the the way it is. Or I have the high stress of my kids. The high stress of my kids kind of paying attention.

So I've had my 11-year-old now, I'm trying to prepare him for hunting season because this is kind of his first full season hunting tree stands with a bow. Yeah. And so I'm out there just putting the pressure on. He's walking. I'm going to stop him. I'm like, meh. And I'm like, make the shot. And then he's failing and we're learning through that and because i'm trying to duplicate that feeling for him so that when that happens he can have success and not be bummed out because he's very

hard on himself anyway so what what are the gear differences so shooting tournaments um is it are you using totally different arrow setup oh yeah okay arrows and tournaments are a lot bigger so we can shoot up to like a 27 diameter shaft to cut lines and that's kind of the purpose oh really yeah just because that little yeah because so many days shooting like a even a smaller diameter because that's an interesting point miss rings by just and you're like so like a thicker arrow just blows a better hole. Yeah, just cuts lines better. And so.

But I mean, by 30 seconds of an inch. Minute. But so many tournaments I've lost by 30 seconds. You should get some of these arrows we got sitting right here, man. Oh, that's what I need. Those are some winners right there. Well, one of my buddies actually, because there used to be no rule indoors for arrow size. And he took stabilizer bars and made arrows out of them you're kidding

no i swear and um because back then there was a million dollar prize if you didn't miss between three tournaments you won a million dollars and that you didn't miss the first two tournaments and then after that third one i think he missed one or two for the million dollars and they stabilized like the next year you couldn't shoot over a certain size wow i didn't oh man that's a that's a really interesting point it's like that little bit of diameter yeah but the bigger they are the harder it is to get them to tune sometimes sure they get pay off right stiffer yeah there's a point at which it doesn't help anymore for sure so what what do you like what do you like to use to hunt i use use a micro diameter, a small, it's like a 166.

We actually just finished building a whole platform out of that system because I love the system. I hated all the components that went with them in the past, but that's there. I like really small for penetration, cutting the wind. What do you like for broadheads? So I've shot Swackers, a two-inch expandable for 12 years. Really? Yeah.

You use them for everything? Everything, from moose to elk, grizzly bear. I've shot Swackers, a two-inch expandable, for 12 years. Really? Yeah. You use them for everything? Everything, from moose to elk, grizzly bear. I've shot everything with them, so buffalo. With a mechanical? Mm-hmm. But I got a 31-inch draw shooting 78 pounds, so I'm pushing a lot of energy. With 78 pounds hunting, with your tournament bows,

I'd imagine you're pulling less a little 72 to 74 pounds tournaments um if you shoot feta it's a max of 60 which is why i don't shoot that a lot it's just i can't i don't hold 60 pounds well because i never shoot 60 pounds is it the same amount of let off as your hunting bow then your tournament bow yeah 80 i've shot all the way down to 70 in tournaments but depending on the way the cam's built um like there's 70 v's there's you know just regular 70s which way the way it falls into that that valley everybody wants a different feel and i've just got to where i like 80 for everything anymore so uh why do you crank up from going from

tournaments to hunting why are you cranking up six pounds um because i'm only shooting one arrow hunting so you know i'm shooting a lot arrows a day yeah you gotta play the long game a little bit yeah so do you train higher not really i mean for tournament season i'll start like indoor season i'll be shooting 70 72 and then just kind of and that's a lot of arrows in the beginning of the year january february so by 3d season or outdoor season i'm in great shooting shape yeah and then going into hunting going up to 78 pounds it's not not a huge huge deal especially you don't shoot nearly as many arrows but i like to have that little extra if i can this year i actually

had to back off because i couldn't get an arrow to tune for the first time it's that high poundage a 250 spine was too weak so i had to back off my poundage to about 75 is what i'm hunting with i think what uh what's some of the biggest mistakes you think people make hunting white tails shoot hitting white tails not hunting them hitting them they aim where they want to hit and you're aiming low how low depends on the distance i've heard you talk i've heard you talk about this in the past yeah i think you know i think 40 yards is the worst 40 to 50 yards is probably the worst distance to shoot a white tail in my opinion because they they can hear everything they can hear the bow they hear the arrow but they still have time to react yeah once you get further than that they can't hear the bow go off as well they don't react that jumpy movement and then 30 and

under if you're shooting a pretty fast bow at 30 they can react a little but at 20 you can pretty much aim where you want to hit for the most part unless you're hunting like really keyed up south texas or texas stuff you know you have to know where you're at you have to know your deer herd you have to read their language but normally a good rule is to aim lower third of a whitetail i think because if you hit if they don't move you still shoot them in the heart and if they drop 10 inches you're gonna hit them in the lungs Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers. You're irritated.

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Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try On x out if you visit on x maps.com slash meet on x maps.com slash meet welcome to the to the on x club y'all what's a big drop for a deer loading up to jump and talk about that too is like the idea of the

he like jumped the string like talk about what yeah well he actually arrow like talk about what he's doing they're just crouching to run you know but they have to flex their legs to to run and so it looks like they're ducking your arrow but they're just they're not like oh here it comes no they're just just getting out of there you know yeah. Yeah, he's loading up to spring. To run, yeah. And so it's just, I take all that into consideration. But if they're 40 yards, it's dead quiet, and they're keyed up, I'm aiming like belly line. Really? Yeah, because they're going to move. So your aim is that if he didn't do anything, you're in trouble.

Oh, yeah, you're in trouble. But he's going to do something. But I know you're going to do something. We filmed them on, well they, where they, not only do they drop, but they also will load away from you. So they're, it almost, if you're, it's like you're watching.

Oh, cause he's fixing to go the other direction. Yeah. So the arrow, we have video of the arrow just climbing literally just as he's falling, the arrow goes almost like a special effect. Which. It's crazy. Which kind of makes sense.

If they're getting, a a predators coming, they're going to want to. Yeah. A white tail, especially doesn't need a reason. I mean, they would hunt other mule deer. I feel a little differently about, they always want to check and see what's going on. A white tail doesn't need a reason.

And it's just that immediate reaction. Boom. Yeah. It's insane. Yeah. They'll wheel away and turn like there's so much to take in consideration. And I think people just shoot a

deer target a ton you know practicing and they just the tin ring and everything's where they want to hit it's double long and that so when that deer comes out they just put their 30 yard pin right in the lungs and shoot and backstrap them or shoot over them or you know i just think that's the probably the biggest mistake i see people make as far as the shooting aspect of it i'm trying to get how to ask this i'm going to take a stab at it if at what distance and i know there's all these variables like speed of arrow and all that but let's say it's totally still calm out at what distance is a deer that is just like because of the noise aspect at what distance is a deer that is just like, because of the noise aspect, at what distance is it just too far to know where it's going to be when the arrow gets there? I've seen deer completely move out of the way at 40.

And then I've seen deer at 80 stand there and never move at all. So it's very hard to say. So at 40, one can be out of the way. For sure. I mean, depending on the speed of the bow, I mean, I'm talking about three feet from where you're aiming. You know, you might hit them in the hip type stuff. Yeah. Just a very, you know, bow hunting and hunting in general is just very uncontrollable.

And so you just have to take high percentage shots and then understand that bad things are going to happen every once in a while. And you have to deal with it and do your best and so i mean for somebody to say i've bow hunted my whole life never made a bad shot never i called you that i'm saying like that doesn't happen you know i called every you know situation exactly as it was going to happen it's just doesn't it's not the way it is no some if somebody tells you that they're probably uh they're probably full of it yeah yeah but i feel really comfortable shooting a white tail like i love that 60 to 80 range because they don't move a lot got it and i still feel very comfortable shooting but i mean i've dedicated my life to that i i think that's your business man yeah and

and so that 40 to 50 makes me most nervous shoot because they're never where they were when i the release fires huh so i was like where's he gonna go talk about your aiming process you're not aiming at brown no no no my dad taught me like so i missed a lot of deer when i was hunting those game lands from that when i said i started hunting it like started shooting at them at like eight. And then I killed my first one at 12. Well, that four year span was not pretty. And so my dad really started, that's what I was doing.

Like just put pins on it and shoot. And so he really like drove it into my head that I got to pick a hair. He's like, you have to pick a hair on that deer that you want to hit. You know, it's old saying aim small, miss small, but that was his way of telling me, like, don't just aim at the deer. It's a good way to miss. And it's still true to this day in tournaments. I take that aiming at the 10 is a good way to shoot an eight, you know, aiming at the 12 is a good way to shoot a 10. You got to aim at something way smaller than that. So if you miss, you're still good. and so that's the

way i still approach that is like i want to pick the ventricle of the heart i want to aim at you know that type of thing so that's how you're thinking about it yeah that's how i think about it and that's an interesting deal you can see people might people that don't shoot bows uh might get this from just sighting your uh rifle at a, like if you're just trying to zero your gun at 100 yards, shoot a bullet hole and then use that. Yeah. And you'll watch your group shrink down. For sure.

Like if you got a one-inch circle on a target and you're trying to see what your group is like, just never mind that. Aim at a bullet hole. Yeah. And you'll be like, oh. Because, you know, I don't know what is going on. It's just like that level of precision, you know.

Or shoot an arrow and aim at the knock. That's your focus. Yeah, and try to find something. But the hard part, you know, I can do that all day long or I'll go and take whatever, you know, take a little bit of blue masking tape and kind of tuck it in something. But deer running around the woods.

They don't have that. They don't have blue masking tape. So how are you like, what do you think? What do you like actually you if you had to analyze what's probably occurring in your head in a very quick sense like what are you actually looking at you know i mean when you're looking at that deer's body what are your eyes going to so i think this is where 3d tournaments has helped me so much because we're aiming at a target and you can't see the rings there's no dots there's no it's a blank deer target.

You just have to know, like you find the rings with binos and then you get very good at aiming off of shadows and just little detailed differences. And so for me on a deer, like I think first and foremost, you have to know the anatomy of a deer and an animal really well. Let's do it then. It's a 40 yard shot. Okay. 40 yard shot, Okay 40 yard shot perfectly broadside

I am going to give myself and it's all just for me it's giving myself the most room for error human error the deer moving everything so 40 yards perfectly broadside I'm going to pick that spot just behind the elbow about two inches an inch and a half two inches up in the deer maybe and I'm going to burn my 40 yard pin about an inch or a half, two inches up in the deer maybe. And I'm going to burn my 40-yard pin about an inch or two behind that crease. And knowing that deer is going to move. Yeah. See, that's the thing there, man. It's like, I wonder if it will.

But you're just like, it will. I know it will. It's going to move. Yeah. Now, if the wind's blowing 40, it's raining, he's looking the other way, he's chasing a doe, everything changes that. I almost messed up last year in Mississippi. The buck was chasing a doe out of a cane thicket.

It's quiet, so in my mind I'm thinking he's going to drop. But when they're that keyed up and rutted up on a doe, they don't hear anything. You could scream at them. They ain't paying attention. And I hit him in that inch above right behind the crease and hit the heart, bottom of the heart. But it's like he didn't move, and it scared me death you know when i shot and he just stood there and took it

i was like oh man but in a normal scenario they're gonna duck five to ten inches at 40 yards are there shots and let's keep it like let's keep it 40 or you know 40 or so let's say you got a buck and he comes in he gets like semi downwind and he just knows something isn't right you know works are you thinking like no way he's too keyed up are you just playing you just plan on you just plan on that then yeah like this dude is a flight risk at when the string for sure for sure then then i think i think there is a time where you just have to say it's not, it's not going to work.

You know, if he's that keyed up looking at you at 60, he's probably not a good play. You'll make, you might make the call not to do it. Yeah,

yeah. But 40, I think you can still make the play. He can duck, but he, you know, it's,

it's just such a situational thing. Yeah. You know. I'm thinking of the average hunter here. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're the best in the world. Okay. We established. Yeah. With muchational thing. Yeah. You know. I'm thinking of the average hunter here. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're the best in the world.

Okay. We established. Yeah. Um. With much, yeah. Yeah. I pounded the table. That's right.

But you were able to take your mind through a thought process. Right. In a very intense situation. Yeah. The average guy, realistically, like 25 yards, maybe 30, right? I think, you know, the high percentage stuff, yeah. I think the average guy can get efficient enough to shoot 50, 60 yards and be very good.

The problem is, in the white hole, you have to be able to process and take in so much information and then make a good decision with it like that. And that's the hard part, is making good decisions in those moments. And it's like i think it's why so many people just make bad shots or if they would have just been able to process that a little quicker you know so i think yeah i think most guys you know bow hunting was growing up was always a 40 and under game you know and that's the way it just was and it's just this unspoken rule was like no no i can, I don't have a pin over 50 yards.

And I never did growing up because I was on the East Coast. We couldn't shoot further than that anyway. Yeah. But when I started hunting out West is when I really, it opened my eyes up to this long range bow hunting stuff. I showed up in Antelope camp with Tim Gillingham, who's another one of the best in the world shooters. And I had a 50 yard pin pin, and that was it. And he laughed at me, like, out loud. Like, good luck?

Like, yeah, good luck. You're not going to kill an antelope. He told me that straight to my face. And so I proved him wrong and made it a point that I will get to within 50 yards in one of these things. But I realized really quickly, like, okay, if I'm going to be successful out west consistently, I've got to learn to shoot further for the whitetail stuff you do not have to shoot past 50 yards to be successful maybe that's

why i've had such a hard time out here it's hard man it is just shoots homemade bows oh really yeah i used to a lot more i haven't had a lot of time but i used to build bows but i wanted you might know about chest he. He has a bow company. Not anymore. Not anymore, he did. I want to tell you a story about Aim Small. Look at that tattoo on his arm. I can't argue with that.

He's got an arrow tattooed on his arm. One day, just a real quick story. Out in the Elk Woods, I get out there, and I always shoot a couple arrows. I have a judo point. So I'm at about 15 yards, and I pick out a little rock and i shoot i just miss it i'm like all right that's pretty good you know i'm happy with that i walk down the trail a little bit i see a grouse at about 15 yards i aim at it shoot at it just miss it yeah then a little while later that day have a bull come in about 20 yards perfectly broadside shot all nervous aim at it just miss it yeah but it just goes to show you it's like

come on man i can hit my target yeah at 20 yards your focus gets bigger every exactly yeah that's it that's just a weird thing man i like there's so many god there's so many like failures there's so many failure stories that when i'm trying to explain this to people like the sort of you know like the agony of trying to learn how to kill an elk with a bow like we started hunting i started hunting deer with a bow when i was little and it was just different because you know during bow season be like we'd shoot any deer you could possibly get a chance at you know but how hard it was to learn how to like kill elk with a bow i remember when i finally killed a bull i killed a couple cows i finally killed a bull with my bow and hit it through the heart and it didn't even really move and died i thought i was hallucinating

i was like it's it's easier to imagine that i'm in a hallucinatory state than it is to imagine that that just fell over i was like i'll buy that like that's that's more that makes more sense that i've entered a hallucinatory. But I think that that's like, if you review all the bad, like when you review the bad shots, you know, and I review the bad shots I made on my boat. And when I review the good ones and I review the bad ones, the bad ones you recognize that you don't know what, but there was a lack of certainty. There was a, there was a, a flash of like, let's see what happens or a flash of, I hope this works out. Yeah.

Or you better do this. Right. Yep. And when it's not, it's that you review and you had, you're like, no, no,

no, that's right. Like I went like, no, no, no, calm down. Yeah.

And I placed the arrow. Yeah. There was no no who knows yeah no that's the let her rip 100 you i mean it's so funny because i i try to tell people all the time they're like how do you in those moments where even tournaments where everything is on the line like how do you not let like all the negative like what could go wrong stuff in because that's what happens it's like like the skier analogy it's like don't hit the tree don't hit the tree you hit the tree you know

what you're focused on is is very important you know you have a there's so many different things and ways and that people teach do you do you have a process i you know, I won a lot of tournaments before I really realized what I had a process. And I've watched a lot of people, and I think I just got a little bit lucky too as far as having that. My dad was a really good mental coach, tough, tough love type mental coach. But he was very invested in me

being able to perform in high pressure. And so it's like, I never really had a way to word it until recently. And I don't know if you guys have heard of Joel Turner, um, with the shot IQ, aim it to keep it. Yeah.

And like, but it was the way he explained it to me over the phone that really made it make sense what I did. And like, why I was talking about slowing down those big moments because when you get in that moment, even in tournaments, you just want the result now. Or when that big bull elk steps up, like I want it now.

I want to see my arrow hit it now instead of just letting your process just organically happen. So I was always able to slow down in those moments, but I didn't know why. And I always saw people that performed better and high pressure. And I didn't know why, but when Joel explained to me like this, he's like, Levi, how much determination would it take for you to walk through a house that was on fire? Like slowly walk through it. I said, it was a lot of determination for me to do that you know and he said well that's what your mind's going through in those moments and he's right and so once you

start looking at it like that because everything feels like it's on fire and you just want to run through that moment you have to learn how to like you said you like you want it so bad yes like this what you've worked for this opportunity right now this arrow whether like this year shooting for worlds like my whole season came down to that arrow and everything in me wanted to just get to the result now but i literally that was probably the slowest arrow i shot all year because i was like this is the last everything this is the last era worlds yeah the final era i put up up on my instagram a video of me shooting that. And I didn't like, in the moment I look so calm, but inside I was on fire, you know, because everybody's always like, dude, you are just made of ice. You're like ice water in your veins. I'm like, no,

I am freaking out inside. I just looked that way. And so it was really, really a slow methodical process. And if you'd have looked at me at 19 20 i was still winning a lot but the more nervous i got the faster i shot and so the older i've gotten i've realized really important it is for me to slow down the more nervous i get and and what does that look like like walk walk through what it looks like to slow yourself down that one looks like but i mean are you are you literally talking to yourself yes okay i'm talking you're like lecturing yourself yes on where i want to hit i'm gonna hit here i'm gonna aim here this is what's gonna happen i'm gonna shoot it for this i'm double checking my

sight tape i'm gonna execute slowly and steady and just really affirming every positive thing that i'm going to do okay not like what could happen if I don't do this. Cause I've had tournaments where I let those thoughts in and it's, you just collapse and you, it's over. What thoughts? So like, everybody's,

everybody's looking like this is your whole season comes down to this. You know, there's a hundred thousand dollars on the line. You know, you haven't won in three tournaments, those thoughts, you know, um, after the phone call

from some of your biggest endorsements of like hey what's your practice routine looking like lately it's like everybody's doubting you and thinking you're washed up really oh i've heard it all it's like oh man i'll be like yeah i gotta run yeah it's like it's um i've been like those stretches in your career where it's like you just can't get it you just right there and just like five in a row where you don't you don't win and it's just like everybody's like oh he's lost it you hear the buzz and it's like okay i gotta shut all that up and figure it out and i think just and i think that's why you see in a lot of sports the guys that dominate and they just go away because it's that expectation that of other people and then you put on yourself that cloud just follows

you everywhere yeah and it's a very uncomfortable feeling what's old for a tournament shooter uh some of the guys are in their 50s still shooting incredibly well you can play a long time yeah yeah so i could i don't know that i will. Yeah. How old are you? I'm 36. Okay. But you do another decade if you felt like it, right? Yeah. I mean, if my eyes, the main thing is your eyes. Is that what the limiting factor is?

Yeah. So a lot of the guys have had different surgeries and kept their eyes really good. My eyes are still great. They change every year, but I can still see very well. What's your deal with stuff like coffee? Yeah. I drink coffee every morning. Even don't know tournament i just could try to limit it um until after but i'm like addicted to caffeine badly so so that's just factored in oh yeah it's gonna be coffee well the first thing i think of whenever i shoot that final arrow that day is

like i'm getting an energy drink from the closest gas station I come to after this. So yeah, but I keep it to a minimum, um, and try to eat easy digestible foods. Yeah. Give me an example. Like oatmeal, oatmeal, fruit, something like that for breakfast. I don't want like steak and eggs, you know, just because literally you can see when your body's working that hard to digest food, you can see your pen move in your heartbeat. You know, man, it wasn't until I never got it from archery. It wasn't until I got into free diving, spearfishing and free diving. Like my friend, Greg Fonts, he's like, if something's wrong with you, this is where you find out.

Right. greg fonts he's like if something's wrong with you this is where you find out right and noticing the effects of because you're just trying to do breath holds and become conscious of your heart noticing the effects of what you've eaten what you drank dehydration stress um i never applied and i should i never applied that type of thinking to uh marksmanship right like shooting my rifle shoot my bow that's where i'll be like laying on the surface ready for a dive and once i close my eyes i'm like you're not ready to go you're not ready like i could you know i can like hear my heart beating in my ear yeah which you shouldn't right you know and i'll be like okay chill but i never

um you know i would never think to be sitting in the tree stand and be like all right uh you better tone it down right yeah you know like you better like just take a second tone it down you know let's check in let's check in a little bit on what we're doing definitely and there's a lot of things you can do to slow your heart rate you know i've learned all that shooting in the world cup because i've never been under that much pressure like shooting for the u.s and england and against other countries and stuff like that it was like this immense pressure and for i was like just total redneck that went over there because everybody's like you should go shoot in the world cup and then i was like i guess you know so i flew to england and pretty soon i was the last standing american and i was like oh

my god my whole country's counting on you know lee greenwood just rolled through all my buddies and now it's me and some guy from the netherlands and they're like blowing air horns in my ear and i'm like geez this is wild over here so when you see a buck coming, let's say like a buck you've really been after, and he's coming and he's still way out, but he's coming, he's lined out, are you conscious about what, like, are you practicing the same mental discipline? Like, this is going to happen, right?

So are you going like, okay okay i'm gonna yeah get in my headspace are you just in the hunting game and you're not playing like i'm not nearly as good in that moment as i am at a tournament just because in a tournament i know exactly what's gonna take place yeah for the most part like i got 20 targets to shoot and then once i'm in the finals i can make a plan like this is my strategy target's not gonna whiff you no i mean hunting you might hunt for two weeks and you get lulled to sleep and all of a sudden. Like this is my strategy. The target's not going to whiff you. No, I mean, hunting, you might hunt for two weeks and you get lulled to sleep and all of a sudden, boom, there he is, he's coming.

And so you don't have that. I mean, ideally you stay sharp. And if he comes on this trail, like that's what I try to do. If he comes from here, this will be my plan. If he comes from here, this is what I'm going to do. But I mean, you get caught off guard all the time. And so it's, for me, it's just focusing again

on what I want to happen how i want to execute and not focusing on all the negative that could go wrong but hunting i my my heart rate everything is so elevated from tournaments it's just i love it and i like you work so hard for that opportunity and you don't know it's coming. When, uh, cause you're walking range finder. Do you, uh, what are you, what are you doing with deer? Oh, I range everything. Yeah. That thing's in my hand constantly.

Got it. So when you get up in the tree, you start ranging trees and. And even when he's coming. Do you visualize all your shot? Like, are you like, okay, I could picture shooting through that gap. I could pick, are you doing all that kind of stuff? Yeah, if he comes on that trail, I hit that limb and that over, like like everything i'm trying to pick it apart when i get in a tree but even then it could be this way it could be that way but like used to i'd range a tree like that one's 40 that

one's 51 so if he's between it i'll kind of try to gauge it but i learned myself and like you black out a lot in those moments right yep and it's right there and then you're like wait was what was that tree you know so now i'm i'm constantly got my rangefinder and so like i want to click it if and then like when i until he breaks under 30 then i'll put it up you know how do you hang your rangefinder i've got uh you know the chest spinos and then the rangefinder hold so you pouch it yeah um and so like if he's walking broadside i'm gonna click him click and click him because i want and i need that exact for me to aim that small and focus that small in my head i need to know exactly how far he is right yeah if you're like he's 40 between 40

and 46 it's very hard to aim an inch up in him yeah you're like you're kind of pretending right you're aiming aiming you know so for me i mentally i need to know like he's 42.3 so i'm like okay i'm gonna but are you shooting set pins then when you're hunting you know i got 20 30 40 50 60 and then it's on a mover and i use my bottom pin as a mover gotcha gotcha so a lot of your shots you're shooting off pins yeah and are you are you splitting gaps yeah you do yeah yeah and it's just a practice thing and and um explain gapping real quick for people that are listening so like if you if he's uh 54 yards and you got a 50 and a 60 you're splitting that where an imaginary 54 yard pin will be so you put your 50 high your 60 low and try to gap that where exactly where it needs to be um and that's a art and that takes a lot of practice it's just it's another thing to

think about man it is it is so that's like one thing that you got to be really in tune with your stuff um i was trying to get my kid a shot at a deer this year at his bow it's his first year you know and uh and i was just like i got more okay we're not gonna shoot more than 20 you know and if you get a shot like just that's the that's the thing you know i feel like i was limiting about just trying to simplify it yeah right i was trying to simplify it i'm like it doesn't matter if we if i say go that's the green thing put it there yeah don't worry about all this other because he likes to shoot the league and i'm like I just want you to put a lot of that out of your head. Let's just try to practice on close shot.

Good shot. You know? Yeah. I think that's a good thing. That's the same way I'm doing with mine. We practice out the 30 and I've got him like putting them in situations, but I already told him, I said,

if it's over 20, it's a no go. Yeah. We sat down and I, and I showed him, you know, I'll show him like that, that tree.

If it's coming down that trail, that tree, tree not before that tree but that tree is time and it's the green bear whatever the hell color pen you know just keep it simple i grew up with the compound yeah a real cheap one started hunting with traditional bows um it's like so difficult. Recently I had a, I was given a compound and I got it all set up. Holy cow. Holy cow. The difference.

Did they work real good? You know, especially having like a little, definitely little different mechanics, but having like good, good mechanics different mechanics but having like good good mechanics and understanding back tension and things like that grabbing a compound and then being able to wrap relax a little bit at full draw was a big thing for me because i was wanting to like rip it apart rip it apart but like after that like i was just like you've got to be kidding me they work amazing well i have a long bow dude and and i haven't ruled out that someday i'm gonna like i put in a pvc tube with a cap on it and put

it deliberately like in like mental storage and i've so many times almost taken some of that stuff and put it on the free table here at work i might know because someday you might return to it but right now i just don't have the time discipline or dedication to do it but someday i'm like i could picture someday in my old man era picking that out and being like all right man now we're gonna do it i've been asked that a lot like when are you gonna didn't it too easy i'm like nope like i i don't i respect people that do that because I'm like, I would be scared to death to take a long bow out. Did you shoot one for fun? I have.

I'm not very good. To be, to be honest with you, I've done it a long time. And the more I do it, the more scared I get. Yeah. With it.

Which sucks. But I've just I get with it. Which sucks. But I've just seen a lot happen. Did I tell you I won a tournament with my longbow? No. But in my age class, it was only me and one other kid. Gotcha. Win's a win. It's just like my brother. He was the best

in his 6th grade class. I beat this one boy one time with my longbow. the best in his in his uh sixth grade class really yeah i beat this one boy he's the only one only one in his class they're fun to shoot yes i just man and there's a time and place yeah like so what would happen to you if you went in uh but what happened to you if you knowing what you knew went and shot uh like olympic style gosh i don't know mess with it no never um some of my good friends brady ellison um probably the best american olympic shooter there there ever was um i've hunted with him he's a great guy but i'd have no idea where to start is that right just a recurve yeah just a recurve with pins and fingers and clickers and i just i got i got

nothing so you don't mess with it? No. But he's unbelievable. Like he shoots as good as a lot of the compound professionals with his recurve. Yeah. Is he a hunter? Yeah. What's he hunt with?

He hunts with a compound. Does he? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. And he can shoot with a compound like very well. Oh. Yeah.

But he has to shoot like 40% lead off because he's so used to that. Oh, the wall. The tension just building. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he has to shoot like 40% lead off. Cause he's so used to that. Oh, the, the wall. The tension just building. Is that right? Yeah. So whenever it like breaks over,

it freaks him out. You can't jump from the one to the other, huh? Yeah. I mean, maybe now the last time I shot with him is. When I shot that bow, that compound,

I couldn't let it down. Yeah. You had that much tension built. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, he's like, let it down. And I'm much tension built yeah yeah it was like he's like let it down i'm like you know like like it's like suspenseful yeah have you ever had um do you ever get jumpy from like gear malfunctions uh no like you have like the string junk the cam or like a problem

with the release or whatever then all of a sudden it's like some kind of like demon enters your head i have with mostly with uh release malfunction yeah stuff um that's really big because it just takes you so much out of your shot process and then every time you're drawing the bow back for like the next hundred draws you're thinking about it yeah i've had i've had that where i've had i've been rattled by and a lot of self-inflicted like i had a bow one time uh i flew with it um in a hard case but i don't even think to check it out yeah and um i had no idea but i don't know what someone jumped up and down on and drove a plane over i don't know right yeah just bent the hell out of the top the upper cam yeah pull the back oh yeah and then dude it's just then you're like well i'll be living with

that for a long time because i'm like it's just so hard to like it is something in the back your head doesn't trust the bow yeah and you got to shoot through that you know and that stuff is that derails you man yeah i've been very lucky in tournaments to not or hunting uh to not have too much of that stuff going i did a major event one time have a release miss malfunction and sent one down through the woods on the second target of the final day and that was tough to recover from was it yeah almost won the tournament but it was it was just a tough mental obstacle like did that that arrow cost you oh yeah it cost me you don't get a mulligan no no you move on and i would the funny thing was i was shooting with a

so at the time i was in a peer group the top peer group with the pro staff coordinator for that release company and when it shot i couldn't even yell at the release or do anything i just had to shove it down in my pouch and get a new one and go to the next one so yeah yeah that's good it's really the only time that's happened to me cost me big time anyway you got any uh you got any tournament shooters coming up next generation oh yeah a ton of them keeping those young guys beat down the hardest part putting doubts in their mind messing with what i was referring to it might be the same answer i was referring to your kids oh no, no, I don't think so. My kid, he literally looked me right in the eye and said, I'm never going to shoot tournaments.

So I'm like, okay, that's as clear as I need it, you know? But he likes to be outdoors. Oh, yeah. He's drawn to the competitive. Fishing, he's the most competitive. My oldest is the most competitive human being. It's like I'm trying to work with him because it's like if like I beat him. There's some videos that I should post of him at like five where I was like beat him at air hockey and he would lose his mind and I'd make him shake my hand and tell me good job. And he did not want to do it.

Like, yeah, he was like, like, you're going to shake my hand. Look me in the eyes, you know, that kind of stuff. But he's a baseball kid right now loves it and he loves the bass fish so bass fish yeah yeah loves it so he'll get up at 4 a.m every day to go bass fish so that's cool yeah yeah all right now or what age are you kids i got a 11 one's about to turn six then i've got 18 month old little girl and then a four-month-old little boy. Oh, so time will tell. I don't know with my young.

My six-year-old is just wild. He says he wants to hunt, but he won't practice. He's just that kid. Yeah, well, that's six, man. It's hard to picture what you're practicing for. It's so funny how different they are, but he's my comedian for sure. That's good. Yeah. Well, tell people how to find you, but he's my comedian for sure. That's good. Yeah.

Well, tell people how to find you, how to check out your stuff, how to find you on social media, whatever. Yeah, I am on Instagram, mostly bowlife underscore Levi. We have a show on the Outdoor Channel, Bow Life. And then we're doing a lot of stuff on YouTube now, on Levi Morgan YouTube and thelevimorgan.com. And that's pretty much all the places I will be. And you're gonna shoot tournaments next year. That's the plan.

Haven't quit yet. No, not yet. Not yet. I'm gonna, I still don't feel finished quite yet. How many, like at what point, uh, at what year mark are you undecided? You know what I'm saying? Five, 40 years. I, you know, I wanted to be done by 40 just because the age of my kids will be. And I've just been gone a lot. And I just want to be there with my kids during that span. Cause I shoot like 17 major events a year. So it's a lot. And this last trip that I left was just gets harder every time, you know, my 11 year old ball in his eyes out and it was just tough. Yeah. I've been through that stuff. It's hard it takes a toll on you man yeah and i sat in the driveway crying myself for like an hour like what am i doing so i don't know how much longer yeah i love the competitiveness of it but at some point

it's like how many do you need to win and before you know i just want to i don't want to be that dad that's gone being gone is tough man even if you have like we run a like a tight program at my house and so i like when i'm gone i'm not worried yeah Even if you have, like, we run a, like, a tight program at my house. And so I, like, when I'm gone, I'm not worried. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not worried about what's going on. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Like I said, it's a tight show. Yeah. Like, very controlled program. Mm-hmm. But it's just nice to be home. It is nice. Yeah.

You know? It's nice. Yeah. I'm just starting to get a taste of that. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like you're worried. I'm not, like, worried. It's just, like, I just want to be. Yeah, exactly. FaceTime yeah exactly part of the mix you want to be part of the mix man yeah yeah you

have how old just got a brand new one uh he's gonna be a year october 19th he looks he's tiny little bugger yeah he's actually here in the office right now oh got to make things work. I just left him in my office. Put a dog in there. Yeah, I remember when Landon was a baby, I was like, this isn't too bad. It hurt. But when they start crying when you leave, that's the hardest.

Where he doesn't quite. Yeah, you're almost there. Let's not end on a sad note. For sure. I do get to go home today, so that's a good note. Well, Nick, thanks for coming on, man. My pleasure. Thank you. I appreciate you coming on and talking about the movie Wild Tale.

And Levi, thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm going to hit you up about that live show. I'll be there. All right. All right. Shooting. Let's check on the shooting part.

I'll take a ticket. It's been a while. It's Pittsburgh. Anything goes. Yeah. We got a guy guy we got a tour manager I'm gonna ask him like what happened someone shot a bow um we'll figure it out now you'll just have to talk or your poetry will all be written in arrows we'll find out it's fine all right thanks man thanks everybody Oh, ride on, ride on, little blood. I want to see your gray hair shine like silver in the sun. Ride on, ride on, ride on, my lonely sweetheart We're done beat this damn horse to death

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