The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 548: BONUS DROP - Steve Talks with Two American Hunters Facing Prison in Turks and Caicos

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Steven Rinella talks with the two American hunters, Ryan Watson and Bryan Hagerich,  currently detained on the Caribbean island nation of the Turks and Caicos. They face potential 12-year prison sentences for having accidentally left hunting ammunition rounds in the tourist luggage they brought with them on vacation to the island.  Connect with Steve and MeatEater Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-t-l-i-t-e.com okay i'm on with ryan watson and brian hagrich who are in uh the caribbean island nation of turks and caicos which is a British territory. You guys are currently out on bail and facing with the potential of a 12-year prison sentence for having been found to have some hunting ammunition in your respective duffel bags with no gun with them while on vacation with your families and prior to this you two did not know

each other no not until what nine days ago right yeah nine days ago how in the you guys can decide however you want to start who wants to start i guess whoever had this happen to him first like how in the hell does this happen well that that would be me um so my family and i we came on vacation here february 8th uh my two kids, they were ages three and five at the time, came down here. It's a place we've traveled to for many years. This was our fourth trip and we had a great time. I mean, this was a great time for our kids, a lot of great stuff, great memories. And then it all kind of went to hell when we came home, I'll say. And this is on the way home.

The way home, not on the way here, on the way home. So you left, when you left for your vacation, where did you leave from? We flew out of Pittsburgh. And obviously went through the Tsa process in pittsburgh yo yeah yeah yes he did i did yes okay so you checked a bag you checked a duffel bag from home correct not carried on but checked correct got into the country went through customs on the way in to Turks and Caicos. That's the interesting part. They do not scan your bags upon entry into this country.

Okay. The only country I've ever personally traveled to that does not do that. But they scanned your bags on exit. Correct. So what happens then? Like you, your vacation wraps up and, uh, you go to the airport and, and everything seems to be going fine. Then all of a sudden it's not like, how does this play out? Yeah. We're about to hop on a flight. Um, probably, I don't know, half hour from boarding. And I hear my name paged overhead to come to the

ticket counter. And my wife stayed with our two kids. I walk up to the ticket counter and at first they weren't sure of what it was about or anything. They said, just hang tight for a minute. And then they said, oh, you've been selected for a random bag check, which, okay, that's fine. We've all been there at some point. Sent me over to a different area of the airport and walk in. There are two individuals there, and they said, Ted, you've been selected for a random bag check. Do you consent to this? Is this your bag?

And I said, yes, it is, and absolutely, I consent. So I don't know exactly how long it was that went by but it seemed like a very long time and they're searching they're pulling out my kid's puddle jumper their floaties sunscreen uh you know just everything imaginable and they're looking and they're looking and then after i would have to guess it was probably eight, nine minutes, um, that they pull up ammunition and the guy had the biggest smile on his face. It was like, he just won the lottery and just looked at it and he said, is this yours? And it did double take.

And it quickly became recognizable to me that yeah this was this is my ammunition i had back home purchased legally in the u.s um what was the ammo six five prc and from there uh then it just seemed like there was a whole swarm of people that kind of ensued people were on the phone and I was just lost. I said, you know, I figured, okay, you know, that's, you can take the ammunition, you know, deal with what we need to deal with. And I fully expected at that point to still board the flight with my family. And as time went on, it went on. It became more and more apparent that that probably wasn't going to happen. And then two police officers arrived and they were all but ready to take me off to

presume the police station or investigation. And I said, wait, guys, like I have, you know, my wife and my two kids are about to hop on a plane. You know, they need to know what's going on here. And they did not in the worst kind of way even want to let them know what was happening. Anything. I had to literally plead with them to finally where they went and got my wife. They brought her and my children over brought us into a small room wouldn't let the kids in made them stand outside

and gave us i don't know a minute or two together where i gave her the key to the car uh a few other things and and off they went. At that point, I still said, hey, I'll hop on the next flight. I'll see you at home tomorrow. We'll be in touch. And as things progressed over, they escorted me to the police car and different things, that became apparent that I was not seeing them tomorrow. Man, I got a million questions. Well, let's hear the other story from up top,

and then we'll come back in with a couple of follow-up questions. I'm Ryan Watson from Oklahoma. Two buddies of mine, we were all turning 40 within a few weeks of each other. Our wives had gotten together and thought, man, let's plan a 40th birthday for them. Started kicking around a bunch of different destinations. And the other two couples wanted to come to Turks and Caicos. My wife and I did not, which is kind of the salt in this whole thing. But yeah, so we agreed. We're uh, but yeah, so we, we,

we agreed. We're like, all right, let's, let's go. We'll go. Uh, we come here April 7th and with two other couples have a great time are leaving to go home on April 12th. I have a rolling duffel bag that I use like on the weekends and such. Uh, we grabbed it the very last second when we left for the airport from Oklahoma city, just cause my wife's bag felt a little heavy. And she was like, we might need a place to throw extra stuff. It's like, all right, cool. I'll grab that bag, open it up,

looked inside, give it a little shake, nothing. So we started loading it up off we go. anyways we're on our way home um we are it's a mad house at the airport because a flight had been canceled we had hired this uh skypass company that basically like fast traction through security uh so we were cutting through some families are pissed that we're cutting through this security line. And so there's like a whole game of like where they're shuffling bins and such. And, you know, I'm pretty passive guy at first glance. And so I'm like, all right, whatever.

Like my wife and I get separated. I end up going through first. I walk through nothing. And like, no issue I walk in the duty-free shop and there's a glass wall and I look through and I see my wife standing there waiting on the bag and so I walk back and I'm like what are you waiting on baby and she's like oh your duffel bag still like it's getting inspected okay so we had on the way back we had um taken her makeup bag and such out of her out of her luggage to make room for a bottle of wine um and so i threw that in my duffel bag they are starting to rip through all that stuff and i'm

thinking oh she's got liquid in there like that's not a big deal like and you know my buddies are ribbing me they're like oh what do you got in there and we're all laughing i'm sure at some point i don't know if the security camera would be like, it is like we're laughing and ribbing and still having a good time. And they're, I mean, they're searching like crazy through this bag. What are they looking for? They take everything out, run everything through it, and then they run the bag through another time or two. And I mean, they're searching like crazy. Damn near just run the bag through another time or two and i mean they're searching like crazy damn near just assemble the bag next thing you know the customs agent like pulls out of like a baggie that had my wife initially thought it was like the little locks that they sometimes include

whenever you buy luggage um and she was like oh is that the little locks i was like i don't know and then she turned back around she held it up after they'd like gone and like taking photos with it. Um, which was kind of strange because it seemed like they were like taking selfies with it, but they turn around, they show it to me. And I was like, Oh shit. Like I realized exactly what that is. You know, like that's the ammo that I buy reloaded ammo, this place in Oklahoma city. And I was like, that's a little baggie of six five Creedmoor that I buy reloaded ammo this place in Oklahoma city. And I was like, that's a little baggy of six,

five Creedmoor that I buy. Like when I go hunting and I'm like, I'm like, Oh shit. Lady walks over and I'm like, Hey, I'm so sorry. Like,

I don't need it. It's only like a couple of rounds. It looks like in there. I was like, you can just toss it. We'll be on our way. She's like, no,

she said, well here, you got to talk to the police officer before you go. And I'm like, all right, cool guy. The customs guy walks by. He's like no she's like well here you got to talk to the police officer before you go i'm like all right cool guy the customs guy walks by he's like it happens all the time our our laws just say that you have to talk to a police officer and he's like you american hunters do this all the time all right whatever like nothing seems like i'm thinking i'm to get like a verbal reprimand. We wait there forever. 20 minutes passed by. Finally,

a guy walks over in plain clothes and he's like, Hey, let me like, he starts shuffling through my bags. Let me see your passport. He looks at it and he's like, Hey, I just want you to know you're not gonna make that flight.

And he like hands it back to me. Like the way he did it. I was like, this guy's trying to be tough. You know, he's trying to be intimidating. And I was like, okay. So I was like, Hey, I'm'm sorry we'll probably have to catch the next flight we walk outside

because both my wife and i next thing you know unmarked car walks like pulls up they jump out they put us in the car we don't fully understand what's going on. They take us to, um, kind of an unmarked building where they take us in a room, interrogate us. And, and I'm, you know, I'm still not like fully comprehending.

I'm like, all right, I'm about to pay a fine. You know, like this is, you know, when they're interrogating you, what,

what, what is the line of questioning? Um, do you, are you licensed to carry such ammo and i'm like where i'm from you don't have to have a license to have ammo like i was like i don't understand what you're talking about like there's not a firearm associated with that ammo and they're like are you a hunter and i'm like yes and they're like can you prove it and i'm like

i guess i got a bunch of gripping grins that I can show you. Like, and so I'm like pulling out my phone. Um, and they're, I mean asking a litany of questions. It was a, you know, and I was like, Hey, I was like, can we call my parents to let them know that we're going to be late? Cause they're watching our kids. And they were like, you don't get it. Like you're both going to be it like you're both going to be arrested and you're both going to jail for or going to prison for 12 years and at which point

my wife like was like i mean pleaded like we have children and she broke down and i i mean i quickly broke down as well because i was like uh it it was very apparent at that point that they weren't joking anymore. At first I thought it was an intimidation tactic. Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, no, you're going to be taken to jail tonight. And the thing that got me, um, I never said this yet, but, um, my wife asked, am I going to be cold? And as a husband, uh, who's always considered myself a protector, I, I was like, I'm not letting this happen. Like I was like, she's not going in that damn jail. And so I started pushing back. I'm like, look, there's gotta be another way. Like, like what, like, you're not serious that you're going to take us both to jail. We have

kids at home. Finally, they came back and they're finally they came back and we're going to offer you a police bail but you need to find a surety and i'm like i've never been i've never been arrested in my life i don't know what that is like you need to find a turk islander like a local native that's willing to put up an asset equivalent to your bail. I'm like, I don't know what a bail is. And he's like, it'll be about 10,000 bucks. And I'm like, so I need to find a local that'll put up 10,000 bucks for me. I was like, I've been on a five-day vacation.

And I'm like texting my friend, I'd snuck my phone in. And so I was texting my buddies that we were traveling with. And they were like, oh, we're going to text Ruben, our driver. So the guy that we'd hired to drive us around the whole week, bless his little heart, man, he shows up. He puts the title to his car up at surety. Are you kidding me? No. Yeah.

And so that my wife and I can be out on bail throughout the weekend and kind of get our feet underneath us and figure out. We had to rent a hotel room last second, call my parents. I'm like, this is like serious. So they fly down. That was Friday. They fly down that Sunday. That Monday, we're supposed to go back in, give a recorded interview where I say, my bag, it's the bag that I travel with. Those are the bullets that I use for hunting. No idea how they ended up there. But so we do that and they come

out. They're not, they're just not decided on whether or not they're going to charge both my wife, Valerie and I. And so they tell my attorney, they're like, Oh, we just don't know. We haven't made up our mind yet. We're going to keep them remanded to the islands on bail. They have to post it again. So we'd have the driver come back and put the title of his car up again. And they kept us there for another, for another week, essentially. I went back this past Monday, they charged me, they dropped the charges on my wife.

She got her passport and I told her it was like immediately go get on a plane and get, get off the side. Um, I went to jail. Um, I had kind of no idea, uh, what was going on in the outside world. Um, I was, so here you have to go to Supreme court in order to get bail uh on an ammunitions or fire firearms charge so it it took us a while to get the supreme court so i was there on wednesday um where they late wednesday afternoon they finally approved my bail um sure how to get surety again um which we knew our attorney kind of warned us we put the feelers out

and a guy put up the title of his restaurant guy i'd never met before i went and met him had a beer with him and i was like i'm in a bad situation dude and he was like i've heard you're a good person with a really good heart like i'm willing to to, you know, take a chance and just, you know, put this up for you. And I was like, man, I don't know how to thank you. Like, and so he put his shirt up for me and I got out on bail on Wednesday and, you know, here we are. It's been wild. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join.

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OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. What is their attitude about the fact that you're trying, that you're on your way out? So presumably if you were importing ammunition, you'd be looking for it on the way in, but you're leaving with it. Does that enter the conversation at all, or is that for a later date when you have a trial? I mean, it's our conversation here. I mean, you can't not, but just sit there and rack your brain.

I mean, I've had, I had had conversations with police officers while I was being transported, you know, in the back of a car shackled. And they're like, you know, we don't agree with this, right? And I'm like, hard to see it from my end, you know, and they're like,

and I'm like, look, I was like, charge me the, like, set a record for the fine that you charge somebody. I was like, I'll even pay for the x-ray scanner on the way in so that you can actually thwart the gun crime that you're trying to like get rid of. Like, I'll pay for it. Like, trust me, like, I'm good for it. But doing this, like arresting two dads that hunt on the weekends, like it does nothing for your crime. And so, yeah, I mean, and they, you know, the police officers, you know, off the record, they're like, yeah, and, and what is the, have you heard from the state department, the U S state department about like, uh, are they taking a position on this or are they, are they trying to negotiate

on your behalf or making any demands that, that these two people who are obviously innocent of any kind of, uh, attempted gun crime are being harassed with this potential 12 year prison sentence. Um, this isn't on their radar in some way. There's, there's actually a third now too. So we're just, we're not too,

I heard about that. Potentially a fourth. We're not sure of yet. Yeah. When I was being interrogated, they brought in a mid to late twenties. Um presumably, I thought she was American, girl. I've since reached out to the embassy a number of times because I'm concerned about her because this is hell, right? And I mean, the fact that we've been able to link up and kind of support each other is great.

And I'm like, I want to help the girl out if I can. I don't know where she is. I pressed the embassy. I got a call back that they're doing an investigation. They do admit that they took a young female into custody, but they think that she might not be of American descent. Well, an article just came out about another. I just remember it was a male who also had hunting ammunition.

So the state department's not making you any promises? I mean, it just seems to me that it just seems ridiculous that this could be going on for this long. I've been here for almost 80 days. I mean, if that's any indication. And what are your conversations with the U.S. government? So the State Department, we have not engaged directly with them. It's been predominantly through Senator Wayne Lieford. No, Mark Wayne Mullen.

Mark Wayne Mullen, I'm sorry. And the U.S. Embassy in Nassau Yeah, Mark Wayne Mullins from Oklahoma has been on it, literally he was informed while my wife and I were still being interrogated because

his niece and nephew go to the school, my wife teaches a little Christian school there in Oklahoma City his niece and nephew go to the school. My wife teaches a little Christian school there in Oklahoma City. His niece and nephew go to that school. And my wife had texted her principal. And so Mark Wayne Mullins was already in touch with the embassy before we were ever out of the investigation. So he's been on it from the jump and has been just an absolute bulldog

about it. I've got all the faith in the world in him. I just think that, you know, these things take time. And so him and Governor Stitt, Senator Lankford as well from Oklahoma, you know, they've both absolutely taken Brian under their wing and just given him – Mark Wayne Mullins texted me. He's called me, texted me. I can't tell you how many times at this point. Okay. What state are you from, Brian?

Pennsylvania. Okay. You've been in touch with elected officials in Pennsylvania? I have for quite some time, yes. Nothing – unfortunately, nothing has happened until Ryan here was arrested as well. And still, from my perspective, at a senator, at a governor level, there's been no contact whatsoever.

You're getting it from Oklahoma now, though. I certainly am. It's been phenomenal. Man, that's what blows my mind here, man. I mean, I have like an automatic sympathy for you as just like a couple hunters. And I go hunting. I travel with my family. I'm always hounding on my 13-year-old, 14-year-old boy to be careful about stray.22 shells. When this first came out, when I first caught wind of this, before I even knew I would be

speaking to you, I sent him an article about this, saying this is why I'm always on your case about having a.22 shell in your pocket. But to me, to have it be that you have no way to fire these rounds this is not ammunition for a gun that would be even remotely available you are uh leaving with it not bringing it in you are dealing in like these are very small quantities of ammo you're not a drug runner you're headed home it's ridiculous yeah that you could be going through this and it also seems to me a little bit ridiculous that we're not able to exert more that that are you know i'm not not that they're not doing it but i would just imagine that there would be a full court press on the on behalf of the u.s government about having a couple

of our citizens wrongfully detained over something that's just so obviously ridiculous yeah i think it's interesting too because the charge is actually possession of ammunition. It had nothing to do with the fact that we were in the airport. It's just possession. And so in the United States, possessing ammunition is our right, right? And so it is, it's just strange. You know, there's, it just seems like there's such a more sensible way to deal with this. You know, any other country, it's a fine. Any other sovereign country, to our knowledge, it's a fine. And all these islands as well. All these Caribbean islands, it's dealt with in a much different way. Yeah. Well, listen, man, intent matters.

I mean, of course, of course, I'm sure you learned your lesson. Of course, it shouldn't happen. Of course, there's some blame that you got to feel on your own end for, I mean, of course, of course, I'm sure you learned your lesson. Of course, it shouldn't happen. Of course, there's some blame that you got to feel on your own end for. I mean, you screwed up. But like intent matters. There's clearly obviously no intent. There's no intent to like be importing, distributing anything ammunition. I understand the charge is possession.

But it's, you know, like I said i said man i'll say it for the fourth time intent matters and there's no intent to do anything wrong here it just uh it really feels to me like a i mean one it's a real warning to other hunters and and listen man i'll come out and say this could happen to anybody it happened to anybody. It happened to me. It happened to me in the Anchorage airport where I was walking on, and we had been ptarmigan hunting, and I had a couple 12-gauge game loads in a backpack, right? It can happen to anyone.

It's happened to many, many of my friends. But the fact that it could land you in a situation like this with the, with the stress of this potential long-term prison sentence. I mean, I feel horrible for you guys, man. It's I mean, for me, it's been a nightmare that you don't wake up from. It's every single day you think, okay, I'll wake up and I'll be at home and here I am. So as far as you guys know, what is the next step? You have a, does it go to a jury trial?

Like when do you next interact with the authorities? So I'm next up to bat. I have my hearing on Friday, May the 3rd. So we're only a few days away from that. And essentially, you know, my hearing paves the way for Ryan, for Tyler, and anybody else that's, you know, either here now that we don't know about or others in the future. There was a Supreme Court ruling that came out in February this year that I won't say it didn't change the laws, but it did clarify, um,

in their mind, what, you know, how this can be dealt with. And essentially it's, it's fine. And it's a mandatory jail sentence. Mandatory.

Mandatory. Yes. Now they can handle that in a number of different ways. Um, the first key component is they have to find what they consider exceptional circumstances. And that entails three different factors. One is your, your prior history, uh, two was their intent. And then the third factor is, um, you know, does the, whatever the repercussions are, does it deter others from committing a

similar or same crime? So that's the first hurdle. Then the second hurdle is the jail time. And that's the, I'll say essentially the wild card because in the past, uh, I think there were five last year, five cases last year. There are now four this year. That, you know, the five from last year, they did find exceptional circumstances. But the last individual, unfortunately, he was sentenced to eight months in prison here. And what had that, the person that did eight months in prison, what had he done? Again, similar, but, different. His was, I believe, 9mm ammunition.

I'm not sure what type of bag it was. I don't know. I think it was a magazine. I think it was a loaded magazine. But no pistol? No, no firearm. Now, there have been two other cases where there were firearms prior to him.

And essentially, the individuals, it appears they were misled by either the airlines, whomever they spoke with, that they were allowed to bring them here. But upon exiting again, were found with handguns and ammunition. And they both were able to stay here stayed here for quite a while again, but they paid a fine and went home. And I understand you guys have, I don't know if it's one or two, you guys have a GoFundMe site set up

for folks who feel inclined to help you out. Is that true? Yeah, my sister set one up for us. That was done while I was in jail. And so I have no idea. To be honest with you, I've never even clicked on the link. Some people have shared with me like somebody said, Oh my gosh, Donald Trump Jr. shared your... I'm uncomfortable with it, man. it's a provider for your you know that's always considered myself as a provider um for my family and i wanted to help take care of others to be in a situation where you feel like you may need help is it's emasculating in a way like it's just it's hard to it's hard it's it's something that's hard to wear i don't know how i don't know how to explain it. I'm humbled and completely grateful for everybody. And don't get me wrong.

This is very easily financially bankrupt. Just current money, but yeah. And we were high on the hog. I mean, we work hard and we do okay, we do, you know, okay. But like, we're not, we weren't equipped to handle this, you know, I mean, it's damn expensive. And so my sister, she put that together. You know, my wife and I are both huge in our faith and we want to be servants of the Lord. And so we've committed that like, Hey,

we're going to use this to help our situation, but we want to help others as well. And so, you know, we're going to see what we can do to help Tyler get bail. He's the one that's still in Grand Turk prison. We want to help Brian and his family as best we can. I mean, I don't want to dissuade anybody from doing their own or whatever and fully encourage people to go do that. But I also want people to know that we're not – I mean, I just want to be home with the kids. Like, I don't – I'd give it all right now.

I promise. I don't know what's in there, but I check to whoever for it so that we all three can go home. Yeah, man, I'd like to see you guys come home. Like I said, it really I mean, I got empathy for you, but also just an awareness of how something like this could happen to anyone.

And Ryan Watson, Brian Hagrich, I'm going to let you guys go, but man, we're all going to be watching. You have to make me a promise on air. I will. I'm going to record it.

This goes for both of us, by the way. Okay. If we get locked up for 12 years, you have to take our boys hunting. I 100% promise right now. I'm going to send you a picture of my boy from this past winter. First time shooting his BB gun. The weekend before we left. I saw one of you guys had a boy that got a couple turkeys this spring.

Yes, sir. That was the weekend before we came here. Well, if it comes down to that, don't worry. I will personally take them all out hunting. I'll find some people to take them out hunting as well. And let's hope it doesn't come to that. And also, listeners out there, man, this could happen to anybody. If you guys live in Pennsylvania or Oklahoma,

you want to call your elected officials and try to lean on them a little bit to help get these guys back home for something that, you know, it's just not something that someone should be suffering through for a case of just been an honest mistake made in the wrong place. All right, guys, best of luck. We're going to keep following up. Um, Jordan Sillars has a piece up on the meat eater.com about you guys. I'm sure he'll continue to, to track the story. And man, I just want to wish you guys the best, best of luck. There's anything we can do. Let us know. And, uh, like I said, the minute I saw that story,

I just got a, uh, a sinking feeling because how, like I said, it could happen to anybody. Yes, sir. Yeah. Appreciate the time. You guys take care. You too, man. Thanks. Best of luck.