The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 549: Musky Scandals and Governor's Tags Get a Kick to the Nuts

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Steven Rinella talks with Clay Newcomb, Spencer Neuharth, Austin Chelaborad, Phil Taylor. Topics discussed: What side of the bed do you sleep on?; wonderstone; the erogeny of mountains; how Clay wants a timber rattlesnake; getting bit by cobras and recalling the Schmidt Pain Index; how to correctly pronounce “Roosevelt” and other corrections; a lot of musky talk; Johnny Cash and a pile of pole beans; Cam Hanes’ hog hunt video and Clay Matthews’ duck hunt videos are live; remember to reserve your hunting or fishing trip with MeatEater Experiences; AZ votes to eliminate Governor’s tags; the power of raffles; how Phil woke up at 5:30am to go to Disney Land during a half day break on the MeatEater Live Tour; how you feel hunting out of a state vehicle; how you’re only a resident of one state; and more.  Outro song: "Reel 'Em In" by Garrett Holbrook  Connect with Steve, MeatEater, and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E dot com. apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. I'm sitting in Phil's bed. How's it feel? I'm right where Mrs. Taylor sits.

Huh. That's interesting. That's the first place your mind went. Well, I asked Phil what side of the bed he sleeps on. He suits on the same side of the bed i sleep on that's right so i'm over in mrs taylor's position in phil's bed you know what i read once is that uh you like there's like a um protector instinct which is often like associated with males that they sleep closest to the door to suss out any threats coming in not me me either well it depends what door which door

threats coming in well i guess i'm closer to yeah you're right because i'm closer to the to the outdoor that goes out to our okay outside so yeah i'm there to absorb any threat yeah and i and i got the missus closer to the escape into the inside of the house. So you're right. That's really good. You think that's like what happened when you guys were choosing? You never consciously thought about that? No, but if I was with my wife in this hotel.

You'd sleep on that side. I'd have Mrs. Well, you know, what should be Mrs. Rinella. I'd have Mrs. R ranella right over here where miss taylor's spot is and i would be over there by the door ready to duke it out some drunk like chili comes in or something yeah kick his ass yeah yeah um we're out we're out on live too right now Spencer took advantage of the morning And he went out rock hunting

Spencer can you share with people About your special rock Yeah it's a piece of wonder stone It's only found in a few states And then a handful of other places in the world It's just very colorful Lots of stripes on it Beautiful purples and pinks

Yeah this came from a place that has Rock of all colors, greens, yellows, oranges, reds. What caused the coloration, do we know? Almost like any cool rock that you find, you can assign it to volcanic activity and water. The specifics of it, I can't tell you, but all the cool rocks, volcanoes and water. How much money worth of cool rocks do you think you have now? I don't have anything that's, like, crazy valuable. Maybe if you were, like, interested in landscaping something, you could come into my garage and you'd pay me by the pound.

What's this worth? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. It's not worth enough for me, maybe like a dollar, right? But to me, that's worth $10. Sure, yeah. It's worth about six to me.

Okay. And I don't have any rocks from Nevada. So then it's, yeah, it's like a $20 rock now. Yeah, I got you. I found myself a minute ago in the awkward position of needing to explain to Spencer that there's only three kinds of rocks. Would you think a rock hound would know this? Yeah.

Did you think it was? I did. Did you feel awkward while I was? It was awkward. I was trying to give him the second one without saying the whole word. I was going mad. Just trying to help him out.

Here he is. He's always talking about how he's like such a expert rockhounder and like real geologist and everything and then winds up, you know.

Yeah. You know, my favorite, my favorite subject, like if you're riding down the road with me in Arkansas, I talk about the

orogeny of the Ozark and Ouachita Mountains. I've done it on this podcast. I think the first time I was on Meteor Podcast I talked about it. The word orogeny of the Ozark and Ouachita Mountains. I've done it on this podcast. I think the first time I was on Meteor Podcast, I talked about it. The word orogeny means mountain building. Yeah, it seems like it means something totally different. It kind of throws people off,

but it's like the genesis of mountains. I wouldn't use that word in Phil's bed. It's risky. Clay, you've been mentioned lately. You're hot on getting a new pet. Yeah. Man, I've always loved timber rattlesnakes. My dad planted that love in me from a kid.

If we found a rattlesnake while out in the woods, it was a big day. And we didn't kill them. We just liked him. And recently, on the Bear Grease podcast, we did a series, or we did a podcast called The Cobra Scare. So we were talking a lot about cobras and venomous snakes. And on the last week, I had a guy. I haven't listened to that yet, but I've been,

I'm aware, but I haven't listened. Yeah. Why is it about Cobra? You don't mean Cobras from another continent. Is it because people refer to Timber Rattlers as Cobras? No, no, no. It has nothing to do with Timber Rattlers. Okay.

I'll give you the elevator pitch. Please, I haven't listened yet. The Cobra Scare podcast is about, it was the great Cobra Scare of 1953 in the town of Springfield, Missouri. Oh. It was the Great Cobra Scare of 1953 in the town of Springfield, Missouri. Basically, mysteriously, on August 15th, 1953, an Indian monocled cobra was killed in downtown Springfield. Okay. And basically, over the course of six weeks, they killed 12 Indian cobras. So that's what it's about.

And it became this big scandal. Well, because I keep seeing all these pictures of people's snakes and I wasn't putting it together. Well, it just... Yeah. Where did the cobras come from? Well, I mean, should I tell?

I think you gotta listen to the podcast. Oh, so it's a mystery. It was a mystery for 35 years until 1988. What? Lies, venom, and deception. That's good fodder for biggies. Did anybody get bit? Nobody got bit. But there's

still, there's one surviving cobra that's pickled in a jar at Drury University, which happened to also be where Bob Barker, the Price is Right, went to college. And I went to Drury University and saw the cobra in the jar. It's been there for 70 years.

Made national news. It was in Life magazine. It was called The Great Cobra Scare of 1953. Bob Barker was a big animal rights activist. Yeah, I know. Yeah. He was the one that was always promoting the sexual mutilation of pets. And that's how I would have ended trivia

if he hadn't already taken that one. Otherwise, I'd say, spay and neuter your pets. Instead, we say the only game show where conservation always wins. Took me a minute to catch that. I got you. So that's what the episode's about. We just got talking about cobras, or talking about venomous snakes. Is is it a two-parter it's a one-parter man just knock it out of the park at one but what's cool is i interviewed my neighbor who happens to have

been bit by a egyptian banded cobra and i interviewed him about being what it's like to be bit by cobra okay which is pretty interesting and yeah it's a very fun episode how do you get bit he it was his it was his pet and he he was reaching in cleaning the cage he's been bit by over 20 venomous snakes and he's 82 years old like at this point he's gotta be just kind of asking for it well this was all in his career was basically a sideshow at carnivals. And he was bit by over 20 venomous snakes. He only took antivenom two times. Got it.

So he never tried to get bit, but just that much exposure, he just got bit. Years ago, we had on the show the entomologist justin schmidt and he had subjected himself to being bit by all the insects bugs and you know everything and he had developed this schmidt pain index to scale the severity of insect stings, bites and stings. And he'd put the bullet ant at the highest. This individual you're talking about would be well-suited to develop a sort of scale to rank the experiences. When you're around Mr. Fred,

like he kind of feels like he's an amateur and he refers to these guys that have been bitten like hundreds of times like they're his heroes. Like he's like, do you know Bill Haas, the Florida Serenturpe? There's a word for a place where there's serpents. And I was like, no, I never heard of it. Serpentarium? Serpentarium. Serenturpy. There's a word for a place where there's serpents. And I was like, no, I never heard of it.

Serpentarium? Serpentarium. He's like, man, he's been bit 150 times by cobras. He even got bit by a king cobra. Like, he just kind of nerds out about people that have gotten bit a bunch. But he has these wild stories, man. He would get bit, and he's kind of like a anti-authoritarian guy like he he really doesn't want to submit to any kind of any any kind of like man-made authority that's kind of the way it feels and so he would go to a hospital and sit in the waiting room after he got bit but not check

himself in just in case he did start to be close yeah and close. Yeah. And so he only got bit twice. Or I mean, he only took antivenom twice. But the story's not about Mr. Fred. He was just my Cobra expert. Yeah. And then the whole story was about the Cobra scare.

I interviewed a guy that was a kid when it happened and I interviewed a guy that has a brewery in Springfield right now where they have a beer called Cobra Scare. So Springfield's kind of latching on to this identity, Cobra Scare. So that, in turn, got me just talking about venomous snakes.

And I had a guy from Brad Birchfield, a guy I know from Arkansas that's a big, he calls himself a herpiculturalist. He's not a herpetologist. He breeds snakes. Doesn't breed them. He just has them. He's a snake expert, but he's not an academic, and he doesn't do it for a living.

Yeah. And he brought a big timber rattler, a big diamondback, and a big indigo snake. Is that the guy that had the one in the five-gallon bucket? Yeah, had him in the five-gallon bucket. Man, there's got to be no worse smell than a sealed-up five sealed up five gallon bucket when you open it up and there he is it's they have a they have a smell but i mean he doesn't keep them in

those buckets those are just the tote his tote his totes he interesting story you'll like this the diamondback that he has he he it's it's legal to take him out of the wild. He took this one out of the wild 15 years ago, and it was already an adult big snake. He fed it like lab rats, or tried to feed it lab rats for like six months after he caught it, and it wouldn't eat. Like wild game. He finally, kind of in desperation,

threw a dead gray squirrel in there. Bam! It only eats gray squirrel in there bam it only eats gray squirrels only eats wild game so I want to get a timber all that to say I think it would be a very very nice addition

to the office to have a big beautiful terrarium with a big giant timber just bored out of his mind. Well, now that's an interesting thing to say. They're sitting weight predators, man. A rattlesnake would love to do nothing more than just to sit there his whole life

and have squirrels run right by him all day long. Clay said the last time that snake ate was in October. Yeah. Huh. They are very good pets. Yeah. Huh. They, they, not a lot of action. Very good, good pets.

Like, feed them just, I mean, he, he tries, he offers them food all the time, but most of the time

they don't even eat it. Have you informed your wife of this plan? We can't tell her. Yeah. Yeah, we gotta keep this on the DL.

She don't wanna know about it. Yeah. I can see that. One of the best books about the Vietnam War is called Dispatches. Have you ever seen Stanley Kubrick's... Full Metal Jacket?

Full Metal Jacket. No. Steve is always very disappointed in me. Anytime he says have you ever I'm just like no I haven't you've never seen

Full Metal Jacket I never have I never have I haven't either I've seen like five movies in my life how yeah Arlie Ermey

the famous like I don't really understand we had the same conversation that's what made that guy's whole yeah

career uh huh yeah anyways if you were to watch Full Metal Jacket We had the same conversation. That's what made that guy's whole career. Uh-huh. Yeah. Anyways, if you were to watch Full Metal Jacket, most of the dialogue in Full Metal Jacket, like, how do you shoot the women and children? You just don't lead them as much. All the dialogue from Full Metal Jacket is from Dispatches. And Dispatches was written by a guy named Michael Herr.

H-E-R-R. He was like a college kid from Berkeley. And during the Vietnam War, I think it was Rolling Stone or Esquire, I can't remember which, especially if you'll find out in a hurry, sent him to cover the Vietnam War. And most of the people that would go cover the Vietnam War would go,

and they'd want to talk to General Westmoreland, and they'd talk about the strategy, and they'd talk about this many KIA, and this many pounds of munitions, right? But Michael Harris went and hung out with the grunts. And it kind of killed him. His book that he wrote about is called dispatches i mean it's like it's a masterpiece of war reporting but he never really he didn't really do anything after that um

in the book dispatches he even talks about coming home and having a hard time getting, he has a very hard time reintegrating into society. And he came from like very left wing circles. And when he came home, people would want, would expect him to talk about how, how bad it was. But he would, he was hung up on how beautiful it was.

Like it kind of ruined him. Anyways, in this book, he describes an odor as smelling like snakes left too long in a jar. And that's always stuck with me. I wonder how he knew what that smelled like. When your buddy pulled that snake out of that bucket, it made me think of dispatches. Esquire.

This conversation with Steve has now become so frequent about like, have you seen this thing, that he's now had to specifically categorize when it's a recommendation versus just like, have you seen this thing? Yeah. Because he was being very clear yesterday. Now, this isn't a recommendation but

uh how will you find your timber rattler well so the legality of it is there's um i mean first of all i'm i love rattlesnakes i don't i have not recreationally killed a snake in decades okay if i find one i don't kill it i don't have you pegged as a snake well i just want to say that because you're gonna hear about it i talked to my buddy brad birchfield who loves snakes more than anybody i've ever been around and i said what would the temperature be of the planet for me to take a timber rattler out of the wild and let it be my snake i said would you feel bad if i did that? And he was like, no. He said, you know, there's going to be some guys

that are going to give you grief about it. But he said, timber rattlers in our region are doing well. They're everywhere. So that's what would make it for me. Like, I don't want to order one out of a magazine. You want to catch your own. I want to order one out of a magazine. You want to catch your own. I want to take it out of the wild. I do.

And I have a pretty good, I have a philosophy that's based upon a book I read called Evidence-Based Horsemanship about how we anthropomorphize almost all animals. And you would think that a life of confinement for a snake would somehow be negative for the snake or affect his psychology. That's just hogwash. That snake will have the best life in the world. Minus breeding.

You're talking right now. You're talking right now. Minus breeding. What you're saying right now is as much a nonsense as what I'm saying. This is unknowable. Well, okay. There are people trying

to find a way to measure animal happiness. Dude, you should read evidence-based horsemanship. Is this a recommendation? I'm going to do a bear greeting. This is my first. Hey, Steve, have you ever read evidence-based horsemanship?

And then act dismayed that I haven't. Yeah, yeah. Well, no, I would never come to you dismayed that you haven't read a specialty text. What I'm talking about is stuff that's part of the American canon. Yeah, I'm a little lost. I'm not mad that you didn't read Dispatches. I'm bewildered that you haven't seen Full Metal Jacket. Yeah.

I'm bewildered that you haven't seen The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. It's just like the American canon. You're not going to understand America, right? I can't wait to understand America. It's a hard job, understanding America. And it involves watching the Italian Westerns. The whole premise of evidence-based horsemanship is written by a neurologist and a horse trainer.

The neurologist was also a big horse guy. And basically, they have done extensive testing. I won't be able to do the book justice. It's been 15 years since I read it. But basically, this idea that a horse likes you or doesn't like you is just not true. They don't have a space in their brain to like you or not like you. You don't think you have mules that like you or dislike you? None of them ever. They speak one language when they walk

up to you. That is, who is in charge? Dominance and submission. They speak one language. And they've done all this neurological testing, and basically the biggest motor of the brain of an equine animal is geared towards controlling this huge body that they have. What makes a human a human, all the stuff that makes a human a human happens in this huge frontal lobe. Like if you were to look at like animal brains humans have this unusually large frontal lobe and that's where all the stuff that makes us human happens like empathy like you know they can hook brain sensors up and if i go buy chili a coffee

you know this altruistic moment like that front part lights up and love, altruism, empathy, compassion, all these things. A horse just doesn't have that. They have a very small frontal lobe for how big they are. The idea that your horse likes you or doesn't like you is just blatantly not possible. That snake,

he'll be as happy as he can be in the global headquarters except for anyway i want to clarify a couple points i'm not worried about i'm not like this is gonna be up at night worrying about how happy the snake is but i'm just saying yeah maybe maybe i'm like up already a little defensive for somebody a little defensive. I'm sorry. I tend to be that way. I'm not worried about population. Yeah. You're keeping a, that you pulling a

timber rattler out of the reproductive pool of northern Arkansas is going to have population level impact on the timber rattler. Yeah. I'm not worried about that.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not worried about that he's going to be bored. I don't really know. But there are ways. Think about all the stuff he's going to see Out that glass cave He might just be enthralled I will have to get a venomous snake permit From the Arkansas Game of Fish

You have to get it before you can go collect it Yeah Do you have a good place to go look for one? I mean Yes I do I know where to find them Is there like a specific one to go look for one? I mean, yes, I do. I know where to find them. Is there a specific one that you're looking for? Does it have to speak to you?

Or your first one you see, you're like, yep, that's mine. No, I would like to find a bigger one. Last year, last October, me and when I was riding my mule, I found the biggest wild snake that've ever seen but i wasn't in the market for a rattlesnake at the time i wish i could catch that when i actually talked to brad say could i go back to that same ridge and find that snake again about where he was and he he didn't think i could probably like oh like a specific snake like your odds of success in capturing that one

would be less now what if someone called you and said I got a big one I got a big one in my yard I think what would make it valuable to me is that I knew right where that snake lived and I picked him up brought him home

I think that's what would make it valuable just like Brent Reeves trying to sell me a Tren Walker coon dog. A swimming pool or something isn't of any interest to you. No, I don't think so. I want to know where he lived. I want to get him from a specific place.

So you could know what he's missing. It's in the same vein of Brent Reeves trying to sell me a Tren Walker coon dog all the time. That I had nothing to do with, like a started dog. What a fool. Not interested, Brent. We recently acquired a frog, and I've determined he's happy.

You think he's happy? Yeah, he's quite satisfied. You think he likes you? Yeah, I think he enjoys his living arrangement. I got to offer a correction. I'm moving on from this. We're moving on to news items. Is this a good correction or a bad correction, Steve?

Just where I'm wrong. Not wrong. It's just where I routinely make mistakes. Gotcha. No, this is the one where the guy that wrote in is correct. I stand corrected. And it's just a common mistake I made. It's the pronunciation of Theodore Roosevelt.

Now, how often do you go Roosevelt? Never. You're the only one I know. I know. I recognize it. I don't know why. Do you say Roosevelt? I say both.

I just get lazy, and this guy's having a little conniption about it. I thought the Roosevelt was, like, you being pretentious, though. Yeah, I thought it was like a coos cows thing. Well, it's like this. I just said if I could have done a test, I would have passed the test, but I just know that there's two ways, and one of them is wrong,

and I sometimes screw up one that's wrong. But there's a letter. This guy that wrote in sends a letter. It's from Theodore himself, I think. Is it? Yeah, from Theodore himself writing to a guy. As for my name, it is pronounced as if

it was spelled and he spells R-O-S-A-V-E-L-T Roosevelt. That is in three syllables. The first syllable as if it was Rose.

Are you going to change? I'm going to try to never make that mistake again. Oh. Theodore Roosevelt. Guy wrote in, hearkening back to episode 538. Not a correction, but just deeply annoyed. In 538,

what about episode are we on? The count is all off. Yeah, because we have these bonus episodes that have been coming out. This is going to be around 550. Around. Not terribly long ago, we covered a musky manifesto where a kid wrote in

a musky manifesto telling us a story about how he was robbed um of his grandpa was robbed of the world record muskie and talking about this i disparaged the muskie community guy wrote in steve this is him talking Guy wrote in. This is him talking. Steve's knowledge of musky biology and most concerning,

his take on, quote, the musky community is so under-informed that it's frightful. I thought it could be an April Fool's joke. You're scaring this person. It's a big deal. He says, he goes on,

by all accounts, I'm a fervent member of the musky community for 25 years and counting. And I'm nothing like what he described. Huh. There are definitely bad apples, like with any group. But for goodness sake, please don't condemn a whole group based on the vocal absurd minority.

As for the claimed and now disqualified IGFA record 72-pound muskie. No, I read that sentence. I put the emphasis on the wrong syllable. It should have been. Did he just say syllable? He did. It was my dad's favorite joke. Gotcha, gotcha.

I put the emphasis on the wrong syllable. You don't get it? I do, I do. It was that good. I had to just repeat it. This gentleman has a sentence that's not quite a sentence. Typical musky guy. He says, I don't know how to end.

You know how you use vocal intonation? As for the claimed and now disqualified IGFA record 72-pound muskie, it's period. I don't know how to read the sentence. I go into the sentence like I'm going to encounter a comma. But it's more like he's saying, like, as for the claimed and disqualified IGFA record 72-pound muskie.

Comma. Well, no. It's a period. Right. I don't think. So I'm left hanging at stake. I get to the end of a sentence, and I feel like the rug's been pulled out from under me. Do you know what I'm saying?

Oh, yeah. Because I end on a. Kind of like a little cliffhanger. But there's nothing there. He's just got a period. I mean, there's not another sentence after that? No, there's not a sentence. There's not a sentence. And he's a double space after a period, man.

You can tell he's old. He double spaces after a period. Why are we giving this guy the time of day? Well, because he's got a valid point. But I just want to set the record that he double spaces, which leads to an extra pause. As a reader, I'm not only coming up against

a period, which is a hard stop. I feel like we may be reading into this a little too much. It's accentuated by a double space, which... No, this guy's a slacker who is just used to filling out his college papers by double spacing after periods.

That's my conclusion. I thought that was for folks who use typewriters because double space made a period. Yeah, and we don't use typewriters anymore. As for the claimed and now disqualified IGFA record 72-pound muskie. So here's what happened. A kid wrote into us, his grandfather caught a giant muskie. Now, he had all this documentation that he presented to us in this little manifesto.

It was a thick packet of printed out materials. But in the end, they released the muskie. And according to IGFA rules, a muskie must be weighed on dry land. It could be wet. You got to weigh it on land. You can't weigh it in a boat. It seems reasonable. Does it? Let's say you're on a large ship.

I'm no expert in weights and measures, but what on a boat makes weight not work? Let's say you're on a buoyant this is a question for people who are good at physics would it not be the the bounce like imagine if the boat was bouncing and the fish was pulling hard and you just pulled the greatest weight but it was you know at the trough of a wave where the fish kind of the momentum of the

fish pulled down that's probably what they're calculating for a i know this something that floats if it floats that means it weighs less than the amount of water it displaces that's the definition of floating um did you learn that in full metal jacket no i'm just throwing that in there to make it seem like what I'm going to say next is well-informed. That has nothing to do with what I'm going to say next. But it's an interesting idea. This is a question for any physicists out there. Thinking of the principles of a scale.

The fish is already in the boat before you put it on the scale. So presumably, you've dropped. When you take a fish on board yeah you're now displacing more water right you have to be yeah you take a fish on board you've now just put you're displacing more water you've dropped however imperceptibly the vessel has yeah okay gone lower but it's already on. So when you put it on a scale, the damage is done, so to speak, with the buoyancy.

But I'm wondering if there's any world in which you can't get an accurate weight on something while floating because the weight is somehow being the... I see what you're getting at. This is high-level physics. I'm not sure that it is. I want to say it's not.

You don't think it's high-level? No. You think it's low-level physics? I think it's pretty easy to understand. Even if you can't use your words to describe it, we all know what you're getting at. Well, no, no. I think there's like black holes uh-huh black holes and then above that in complexity would be this issue

i'm trying to talk about oh interesting you know it's a little bit more than yeah yeah a little bit more complicated than the black hole definitely i mean i think 100 so i think it all just has to do with that the boat would never be completely still and there would be there the boat would be riding the waves up and down that could throw off a scale absolutely okay i think that's our answer if you took it to an extreme scale Imagine that bowl was just constantly going back and forth You'd never get an accurate weight Hold something heavy in your hands And then jump up in the air

Immediately you feel lightness And when you come back down It's easy to grasp So Phil's on the side of the IGFA Clearly 100% But that's not this guy's problem. Okay.

This guy says, now this is harsh, but okay. He says, the fish actually had zero documentation of its actual weight or length. They put it on a scale, and they later had the scale calibrated, but it was on a boat. Here's where his real bone to pick happens. Here's another thing.

No photos or independent witnesses verifying its size. Haters going to hate, man. That's problematic. Here's the one thing he says it really that does really impact me okay theoretically i accept the water thing weighing on the water i accept there's no impartial observers it's only their party okay he kind of justified the the photography and all that and they did take a number of pictures of the fish to scale with certain objects that could be checked later.

Beer cans. And other things. The boat, right? That was just a guess. The guy says this, though. Here's where his thing hangs up. The biggest muskie I ever recorded was 61 pounds.

So he's like 72, huh? Right. That is a big, that is a big realize that a 72 pound muskie would be the equivalent of a 521 inch typical bull elk. 18% bigger than anything that has ever been legitimately measured and documented. Knowing that fish records go like...

Hundreds of years. Yeah, and they advance by ounces. Right? I only recently learned that the biggest bass ever caught was recently tied by a bass in Japan. And the IGFA accepts the tie. But right down to the

ounce. That's how slowly this thing advances. And also this guy, this guy and his grandpa blow it out of the water by 11 pounds. That sticks with me. That's interesting. Yeah.

That sticks with me. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness. Do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Our northern brothers get irritated.

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Welcome to the OnX x club y'all you know it seems more plausible though that a fish would be able to break that kind of record though like yeah if all of a sudden there's never been a 500 inch free range bull elk ever killed and then all of a sudden there is one it would, it's kind of like the top end of the species in the wild. You see it. I know it's the exact same thing, but it feels like there could be a fish that just was way bigger than anything we'd ever caught.

It's a little more believable. And Frank Mundus' disqualified world's largest fish ever caught on rod and reel would have stopped the past record what was the fish well it was a couple just to give you a sense of how big this could move he one time harpooned a great white that was four thousand some pounds okay then later went out and caught a giant not as big as the one he harpooned but he could just likely caught that everybody's like one he harpooned, but he could just likely caught that. Everybody's like, well, he harpooned it,

so it don't count. He's like, okay, I'll catch him on a rod and reel. Went out and caught a, and then caught a thousands of pounds weight great white, but they handed the rod off. Oh. He hooked it, gave the rod to his buddy, so he could go take the wheel,

or vice versa, I can't remember which. IGFA threw it out. It would have beat the biggest fish ever caught on rod and reel by a way bigger bracket than what this individual right here is pointing out. Now the real problem here is that Corinne's not here. Because this person goes on to say,

Steve really needs to take just a few to brush up on his muskie biology and the history of faked musky records is actually fascinating he should read a compendium musky angling history by larry ramsell you really should do a musky podcast with a musky expert. Actually, Larry Ramsell might make a good podcast guest. He's probably forgotten more about muskies than most muskie experts ever knew. But he's still a wealth of knowledge.

Meaning, even though he's think about the claim. Take the second greatest muskie expert ever and measure his knowledge in bits of information larry has forgotten more bits about muskies than that individual ever knew yet in spite of having forgotten that vast body of material he still knows more than number two.

Are you buying that? I mean, are you making fun of that claim? No, it just seems like an extremely knowledgeable individual. With that information now, are you going to read that book? I mean, why don't you have this kid and his grandpa on and this muscubologist on the same head-to-head, like, family feud

episode of Meat Eater. That's what I would like to do. That's why you're here, Clay. Yeah. Can you make a note of that, Phil? Yeah. Family Muskie Podcast. Well, this is what we'll do.

This is an invitation. You need to set it up like a game show. No, it's just a conversation. This is an invitation. And this is not dependent on both, like either one of these things. No. This is an invitation for Larry Ramsell to come on

and we'll talk about muskies, muskie records, the history of fraudulent muskies, the muskie community. Muskies. And I'll point out that my maternal grandfather was an avid muskie angler. You got some skin in the game. When I run across stuff like this

that there's really no way to know for sure, I want to look the guy in the eyes and have him tell me the story. That's my go-to. It's like, come here. Tell me that story. Just give me. then i can it's like just reading something deep do you do that to me yeah of course i did you never made that face at

me well i was making that face in the back it's like for real so yeah if we can get larry ramsell to come on the show and it'd be great to to have Larry come on along with the kid who wrote the Muskie Manifesto. Yeah, that would be great. He'd do it, that kid. He's passionate. You should, before that, though, go read Pat Durkin's articles called Mobsters, Arson, and Photogrammetry, the World Record Muskie Conspiracy Theories. And he talks about Larry in that article on TheMeatEater.com.

I'm dying to have him on now. And now the guy, I hadn't gotten this far in his letter. He ends the letter real nice. I feel bad about all. I was going to say something mean. Now I won't. What does he say? He said, I look forward to hopefully.

Odd syntax. I look forward to hopefully a correction or recantation. Or maybe even an actual representative of the Muskie community as a podcast guest. I think that Duke, this individual's name is Duke. Duke, I hear you. I will pursue having Larry Ramsell come on the show. Thank you, Duke. To talk about it. All joking aside, I appreciate your note.

In Durkin's article, he says, Larry Ramsell of Hayward is the premier historian of musky lore. Dude. So there you go. How old is he? I don't know. He tried to find out.

He's not too old to come on, is he? He wrote a highly detailed book in 1984. So that tells us something. Well, I was 10. He probably was. I would say he was 50. I bet he was in his mid, late 30s when he wrote that. That's when most ambitious writers take off.

Are Seth or Musky Chet interested in this kind of stuff? Or do they just get on the water? No, they can't come on the show as a Musky community expert. Well, I wouldn't say expert, but representatives. Yeah. Oh, they could come and listen. Even Seth. Even Seth. What are you finding?

He appears to be old, but I don't know. I don't know how old. Well, that looks like an old photo of him, and he looks like an old man in that old photo. Damn it. I'd say that was taken in 2004. The guy's

still alive. Got a little spark left in him. Larry, we will fly you out. Listen, Larry, this is like, you're going to get great service. We will fly you out. All expense paid trip to Bozeman. We'll put you up, we'll feed you

you'll come on the show and we'll talk muskie lore speaking of muskies let's move on to sturgeon there's like a number of big news items going on right now with fish yeah with fish so we covered pretty heavily, there was a lot of

angst when the there was a lot of angst when the um there was a push to list the who could set this up for me it's a complicated setup not me the u.s fish and wildlife service was doing a 12-month finding on whether or not the lake sturgeon warranted listing under the Endangered Species Act. Okay. Which was problematic to recovery efforts in Wisconsin. Now, if you are a sturgeon, an aspiring sturgeon fisherman, all your attention lies in Wisconsin, where there's a number of waterways in Wisconsin where you can spear sturgeon through the ice.

There's some that's governed on a quota quota where there's like a general season opener and there's an opening day and there's a sturgeon quota and the quota gets hit and it closes. And then there are some draw units in these other lakes. There are draw units where you can draw a tag. And me and Yanni always put in every year,

we're building our bonus points for our sturgeon tags in the good lakes so i'm acknowledging that i have a bias here i have a conflict of interest as a reporter um now wisconsin while doing sturgeon very limitedurgeon harvest has been very very successful at sturgeon recovery. They're making a lot of good progress on putting sturgeon back in waters where they have been

where they were extirpated and they're building this kind of like beautiful culture of locals and people who are very uh vested in the resource right very interested in sturgeon recovery very bought into sturgeon there's a culture around sturgeon spearing it's a very celebrated fishery it's a celebrated fish okay and they were worried about the esa listing because if it got the ESA listing, this system by which Wisconsin has been managing sturgeon

very successfully with a great proven track record would be upended. And the feds would need to come in and say, hey, thanks for all the great work, but your whole cute little sturgeon season thing is done. And in a case like that, what I fear happens, in a case like that, what I fear happens when you, in a case like that, what I fear happens is you take public goodwill and public sentiment and

people rallying around a cause and you turn it into something that is besides the fishery. It becomes like anger and frustration with federal overreach. It doesn't always need to be federal because we just left California yesterday. I spent a bunch of time with divers in California, and they had a problem where the whole state had a closure on abalone. They went from issuing whatever the hell it was 30 000 abalone tags a year to zero and people brought up well why don't we try 2 000 abalone tags a year why don't we keep the harp keep the fishery alive keep the culture alive

keep all these people who are like big abalone advocates, right? Keep them engaged just as a social play. Keep the culture of abalone diving alive because these are like big proponents for the resource. Give the people incentive. It's people that celebrate. There's like abalone festivals and all this stuff, right? Like pursue recovery but maintain the culture. And they chose in this case to just like done abalone is a big muscle or clam yeah i didn't know that mollusk yeah it's a big edible mollusk

um so there was a lot of hand wringing there's a lot of anxiety in in wisconsin that they're what they view to be the winning approach on sturgeon recovery would have been threatened. But, and we reported on that a whole bunch, talked about that a whole bunch, and this just out. We at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are announcing our 12-month finding that lake sturgeon does not warrant listing under the Endangered Species Act. Our agency brought together a team of biologists to compile and examine the best available data and research into a species status assessment. We solicited data from Native nations and state agencies from across the species range and invited them to provide information necessary

for the development of the SSA and to review the draft SSA report. Using the best available science to inform our delisting determination, we found that the species is not at risk of extinction now or in the foreseeable future we did not find any populations of Lake sturgeon that met the criteria for a distinct population segment our decision is a testament to the great

collaborative conservation work being done with our partners from states tribal nations non-governmental organizations, universities, and other federal agencies across the species range. That is great news. Any comments? Larry is 82 years old. Exactly what I thought. Where does he live?

Hayward, Wisconsin. You want to shoot him a note? No. Start it out. Say something like, hey, I heard your big hot shot muskie community. I think he does have a website, though. You think he's still checking his emails?

You know, I think I think one of the biggest plays in the success of the north american model of wildlife conservation has been incentivizing people through limited access to the resource even if it's even if it's a little bit that's powerful i think you mean i think you need to maintain it at all costs yeah just well let's, let's take a look at a couple examples. I feel like we're in a class when he said that. I felt like he was a teacher. Well, elves have only been recovered

across, I think, 24, maybe not even 14% of their historic range. Okay? So we look and be like, okay, if we're going to take a national perspective, maybe not even 14% of their historic range. Okay. So we look and be like, okay, if we're going to take a national perspective, elk should be an ESA species. They're absent from their historic range. Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, on and on and on and on.

Sure, you have little pockets in some of those states, very small pockets in some of those states. But by any examination, elk should be an ESA species. They're regionally extirpated across the majority of their range. But lo and behold, we hunt them where they're abundant. Right?

Bighorn sheep. Now, there are states that issue small handfuls of bighorn sheep tags. They're extinct across tons of their native range, but where you have a small harvestable surplus, we still carry on the tradition of sheep hunting, which gives us the wild sheep society, which gives us sheep conservation groups because hunters that will never, ever have a chance

to hunt a sheep are sheep conservationists because they view it as this part of the menagerie of big game animals in America that they might aspire to one day hunt for. If you strip that, you lose that. And it becomes emblematic of something different. Pretty brilliant,

really. No, it's a great system. Yeah. A guy wrote in with a Johnny Cash album cover that i was unaware of i saw that you need to put that on your social media well here's the deal i keep saying i'm not going to bring it up anymore but last night i saw a couple fresh set of eyes will find more beans t-shirts oh did you in sacramento at the sacramento show i saw three people wearing fresh set of eyes will find more beans t-shirts oh did you in sacramento at the sacramento show i saw three people wearing fresh set of eyes will find more beans t-shirts now there's a johnny cash album

called look at them beans i wonder at what point in his career that he had that no but let's take a look. Could have been. Probably was in the struggling years. Yeah. I want to explain what I'm seeing on the cover. And I'm going to put this. I'll put this on social media.

Basically, Johnny Cash is corroborating or stealing my saying. On this album cover, Johnny Cash is wearing a blue denim shirt. He is reclined on his back using as a pillow a mountain of beans. He's reclining on a pile of pole beans. A young boy, maybe eight, wearing a plaid shirt,

is laying on Johnny Cash's chest. His elbows resting on Johnny Cash's sternum. Upper abdomen. And the child is holding two more fistfuls of beans. Right? What I'm getting from the image is that

Johnny Cash has found all these beans that he's laying on. But here's this young child representing a fresh set of eyes. That's his son. His son, by the way. I just looked it up.

Here's his son representing a fresh set of eyes. That is his son? And what does he have? Beans. More beans. Beans in his hand. 1975.

A fresh set of eyes found more beans. Have you listened to this song? I was one years old. What's that? Have you listened to this song? No. Do you mind playing a clip? For copyright reasons, I do. No, you can play a clip. We're having a discussion about it.

No, that's true. YouTube doesn't care that we're having a discussion about it. Can't you tell them? No. Hey, look at that beans that's true. Yeah. But you know, YouTube doesn't care that we're having a discussion about it. Can you tell them? Uh, no. Hey, look at that beans and look at that corn. And I bet them watermelons must be three feet long,

man. And look at them tomatoes and look at them peas. Well, I know if Papa was here right now, he'd sure be pleased. I apologize to the YouTube audience. You're not going to hear this. It's a nice full sound.

This time last year, the show was a lot of sad faces around this old house. Our Papa died without fulfilling his life's dream of producing one of the best crops in Grimes County. Now Papa died with that dream still in his head. A desire in his heart, a promise on his lips. Calluses on both hands and two dollars in his pocket. Mm. Phil, is it controversial if I suggest that Johnny Cash actually invented rap? I don't think it is at all. Man, hey, when I hear these little preambles to these songs, I feel like I need that for my ballads. Oh.

Like a little 40, 50 second. Johnny Cash is the father of rap. That would strike. Father of rap. That'd be strange. Father of rap. That'd be good, Clay. I like that. Did you get first rap? Clay, did you get some inspiration for a new ballad listening to that?

Yeah, I did. Like just a preamble, like a spoken preamble. I used to do that a lot. Yeah, you got the tone for it. You should start doing that. Yeah. Two other things. No, we got a handful of other things we got to hit, but here's two other things no we got we got a hand with a handful of

other things we got hit but here's our two other things oh so if you go back i don't know what what episode was um what episode was our hog hunting podcast episode phil oh man i don't know the number but it's yeah you don't have it all right texas no i don't i'm sorry it's been a thousand podcasts since i've been working here you know but it's find. The Texas Hog Hunt. Not too long ago, there was a podcast episode with Cam Haynes called The Texas Hog Hunt. We also down there shot some video. You can go find that video

of hunting some hogs with Cam Haynes on YouTube. Not only the podcast episode, but there's some hunting action. There were a couple. There's the one where Corinne shoots the hog, and there's a separate one with Cam Haines. Hammering hogs with Cam Haines was episode 522. Got it.

Also, a duck hunting video of Clay Matthews is out. We did a podcast with Clay Matthews, a famous football player, and filmed some stuff there. That video is out. Both of those are out on youtube that was episode 520 also folks need to go to um we had so some episodes back we had a guest on from uh cypress cove marina down louisiana and we talked about i talked with him renee cross is his name about my experiences going down to Cypress Cove Marina,

spearfishing, becoming friends with Rene at Cypress Cove Marina, and we kicked off where we're doing like a takeover at Cypress Cove Marina and doing a big fishing trip party. So that is

meat eater experience. If you want to join and go down for inshore offshore fish fishing fish cleaning local food a great trip for a few days go check out meat eater experiences you can go to our website and go to meat eater experiences and find details on those trips coming up for fishing in october and then for waterfowl in December, January. So go check that out. Are you going to one of those, Clay? Yeah. Which one?

Venice. Brent's going to be in Venice and also Kansas waterfowl. I'm going to be down there in Venice. Going with Clay and Steve. Well, Chili's going to be there. I'll be there.

We'll be on the second half. Yanni's going to be there. Yeah. Cal. Oh, and Dr. Randall. Yeah, he won the – He won a trip. Dr. Randall won a trip through the company basketball thing.

How do you explain that? March Madness Bracket. Oh, March Madness bracket. I made Randall feel real bad about winning, actually. Why? Because, well, I just told him, I'm like, Randall, you seem to win everything. You win trivia.

You win all these trips. You get to go on bear hunts. There's someone else at the office that maybe really wanted to go. That is true. Yeah, why is Randall going? Did you really make him feel bad? I did, and then he looked at me with all this worry because Bree, our coworker, really wanted to go.

I was like, you just stole that trip from her. And he kind of felt bad. I bet he didn't. He looked like he was worried. I got a problem with Randall. Oh, you do? Oh, let's hear it. Well, he likes to think he's running with the big dogs on wildlife.

I've got two things. He's got a line on a badger that i've been looking to get did he send you the video yeah still hasn't got me my permission and my kids are in the pigeon selling business and randall's got a line on some pigeons and he hasn't sealed the deal on that either wow so like two things you come to him but hey i could sure use some help on that badger i could sure use some help on that badger. I could sure use some help on those pigeons. Months go by, not a bit of progress. Well, I think with the badger, we made a deal.

Too busy winning. Winning stuff. Not busy enough working. Well, we made the deal that I got to go try to catch that badger with my bare hands, which you don't think I can do. You're not going to catch it with your bare hands. He's not going to let you try, and if you did get a try, it's not going to work. It's going to work. Did you see Mercer Long's arms the other night from trying to catch a bobcat and if you did get a try, it's not going to work. It's going to work.

Did you see Mercer Long's arms the other night from trying to catch a bobcat? Well, that's a bobcat. Hey, a lot of those animals like raccoons and beavers, when you grab them, they don't have the flexibility to get you if you get them right behind on the nape of the neck. Now, I don't think I'd want to be catching a badger. No, you need a little fish. Those animals like that with short legs and a lot of muscle, you don't want to tussle with.

What do you think about hand-catching a raccoon? I have a method. Well, because we have pet raccoons. You just pick them up by the scruff. Well, you can also, if you see a raccoon that's just out in a big field like at night tail grab there's a yeah it's very easy to catch them run up to them tap them in the rear end they'll spin around and then you kind of just kind of juke with them a little bit and then when they turn to run you grab them by the tail and they cannot get you yeah my mom used to throw them out

of the house by the tail because they'd get into the house and she'd throw them back out of the house by the tail. I'm going to, in defense of Randall, I don't think he admitted this to you. Something tells me he was probably embarrassed to, but that quote that I lost, quote unquote, about the pharaohs and the babies that you had framed in the office. Randall spent hours, days, looking for that quote. I don't know if he told you how long he spent. He told me when his wife was watching something that couldn't hold his interest,

he would try to find that quote. He read complete books on the off chance that the quote might be in the book. You'll have to ask him exactly which ones, but it was an embarrassing amount of time and you feel that i feel like you should you should be grateful well and randall randall cares about you that much no i am but i just feel like he's kind of burning me on this badger pigeon situation well you know nobody's perfect i'm glad that he won all that stuff and i'm glad he wins all the trivia.

Here's one last thing I want to discuss. There's a couple things I want to discuss. There's two Chetiket questions even though Chester's not here and then there's just some hot news coming out of Arizona. Well, how do you guys feel about the fact that the Arizona Fish and Game the Arizona Game

and Fish Commission just voted four to one to eliminate governor's tags. The governor's auction tags. I think if they can prove that a raffle will come close to raising the same amount of money, then that's great. But if not, they're just saying goodbye to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Well, over the course of years, yeah. So did they do it just because people were

just viewed it as this rich guy's game where it's just totally public? And I bet in some way it had gotten too big. I think it was two years ago they broke the record in back-to-back days once for the antelope island tag and then again for arizona the next day and maybe like if that didn't happen maybe if the dollar amounts are smaller like this wouldn't be the case i'm gonna do a quick deep dive for folks um this debate in some way centers around interpretations of what we call the North

American model of big game. What's it called? North American model of wildlife conservation. Sorry, wildlife conservation. Where one of the tenants, I think there's seven tenants in the model that we use. This is not a formal codified model.

It's like a sort of a living document. One of the tenets is that you have democratic allocation of wildlife. Okay. Some argue that doing a governor's tag or tag auction is not democratic allocation of wildlife. And a little out of order in this explanation, I'll point out what that is. So here you're taking a, you can, the state of Arizona might go out and give out dozens of bighorn sheep tags.

Okay. To people who drew. To people who drew. Just random chance. They'll take one of those tags. They'll take one of those tags and They'll take one of those tags, and they'll usually create special parameters around it. They'll take a bighorn tag, and they'll say,

okay, this bighorn tag is not just good for the season. This bighorn tag is good for 365 days. Here's a bighorn tag that's good for the entire calendar year and it's good for any unit that's open to sheep hunting so you're making like a mega tag and then you auction it to the highest bidder now since this highest bidder is going to get first cracks at any sheep

and the longest crack at any sheet they can be very valuable. So if you have a scout group, like an outfitter who's got an eye on a big bighorn, big desert bighorn, whatever, you're going to get

it. You already got enough money to buy the damn thing. You're definitely going to have enough money to get it. They're going to get it. You already got enough money to buy the damn thing. You're definitely going to have enough money to get it, and they're going to put you on it. And these tags sell for lots of money. So it used to be that you'd hear of governor's tags being 200 grand, 250 grand, and then it's crept up into the like...

700,000, I think, was the Arizona record that was set. Yeah. And so here you have a person paying upwards of three-quarters of a million dollars. Is that what we saw auctioned off at the... Western Hunt? Western Hunt Expo? I don't know what. Mule deer tag, I think.

I don't remember what. I mean, it went for like $500,000. Well, they had a night where they set a record, and the record only lasted like an hour, and they broke the record again that night. So here you have where you're taking, granted, you're taking a sheep tag out of the pool and giving it to the highest bidder. So it's not democratically allocated. It's to the richest man in the room.

However, all of that fund goes to habitat work okay so these governor tags that they just got rid of um i think since 2000 since the mid-2000s they've raised 11 million dollars for habitat all that money goes into the department's habitat part partnership committee okay so it's it's a huge pile of conservation money this it's one of those issues that i look at and it's like i can't even make up my mind like both sides are so clear to me i like both sides of the argument are so clear to me that it winds up being one of the rare things it's just like hard for me like if i had to make the decision unilaterally i would lose

tremendous amounts of sleep and would never be able to decide because i get it the appearance of taking a resource that's supposed to be democratically allocated and auctioning it off to the highest bidder like I get how that frustrates people, but I also get how it brings in huge amounts of money for wildlife habitat. Yeah. In exchange for one animal. In exchange for one animal.

Yeah. Now, here's a little, like, Colorado is opening up. Colorado's taking a new unit that hasn't been open for hunting. Okay, this is kind of like something that's going on right now colorado's got a new unit it's going to open up for bighorns there's a pretty well-known bighorn in that unit that potentially is going to be the new world record bighorn right now yep people all know about it. They just are creating a new unit. His unit is getting opened. Everybody knows about him.

All of a sudden, that governor's tag this year is very valuable. Why? Because you're going to get, there's one tag. It's going to be a one tag unit. But the governor's tag is good

for any unit that has hunting. You're buying the animal. And a lot of the governor's tags go like that. Someone will go to a bidder and be like, here's what we have. Here's a dossier on the available animals. We got a stud mule deer on Antelope Island. Do you want in? Because the minute you buy this tag,

we're going to get it. We're going to put you there and you're going to make the shot. So people don't like it, but it's just a ton of money for habitat. And like, doesn't it make sense that all of those millions of dollars have way more than like way more than made up and producing wildlife to make up for the one animal that that that one animal year that all that money costs like um 11 million bucks probably buys you a lot of big horns from habitat work

yeah you know even if you regard i'm not using this is not my term but even if you looked at it totally like a deal with the devil it's not a bad deal yeah i don't view it as a deal with the devil at all but i'm saying like even if you had that perspective it's not a bad deal yeah but it stings people there's people that like man i've been trying to play the game and apply for a big horn tag for 30 years never drew one never will and then you you're just selling them off to some guy that can buy a new one every year why not okay with that in the pool but i feel like i like uh i'd like i don't want to advance any further beyond what it was um but you already see it in

some other states with like um it's not it's not the same but it feels like it in some ways like in wyoming you can apply special or regular for a tag right yeah and regular your regular deer tag might cost you 350 but if you apply special you're applying for like a $1,000 tag so you can get in a more limited pool. You pay more money to get in a more limited pool. Yeah. Yep. So that's like happening on a smaller scale. But in this case, I'm okay with the governor's tags.

It's a lot of money. Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. And boy, my goodness do we hear from the Canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew, our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking a high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land,

hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right, we're always talking about OnX here on the Meat Eater Podcast. Now you guys in the Great White North can be part of it, be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more.

As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. OnXMaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. There are many, many cases. I mean, it'd be easy to explain them all. There are many cases where this'd be easy to explain them all. There are many cases where this gets subverted a little bit.

It's always where the Democratic allocation thing gets skewed and it often is in service of the goal of wildlife habitat. For instance, some states do these things called transferable landowner tags, where if a landowner has certain acreage of ground that provides habitat for a species, the landowner gets tags.

Now, it was historically like, hey, you own all this land, the animals live on your place, here's a tag, you should be able to hunt regardless of whether you draw a tag or not but then they make them transferable and they make them sell and they make them unit wide so let's say i could have a thousand acres in new mexico that doesn't even have a pronghorn on it okay but i get my transferable unit-wide landowner pronghorn tag, which I can sell on the open market because it's good for the whole unit, not just my property. So I'm being rewarded for my property with the tag that I then sell to Chili for 6,000 bucks.

You got that kind of money, Chili? Chili doesn't even hunt my place. Chili goes and hunts right blm or whatever never sets foot on my place some people go like what is this yeah that seems a little different what is this how is this the north american model yeah a lot of people were talking about that with like the new mexico elk hunt but cal and jason felps sure and they were like how did you guys pull tags how did you guys pull tags like no that there's other avenues that you guys can take yeah and they're like how to like without getting into the numbers of it like oh how do you guys know about that it's like it's pretty common yeah but a lot of people just don't know so no they don't and it winds up that it winds up that you're acknowledging to landowners

that like owning land providing wildlife habitat in some states it's actually measured by certain things you do to create to increase and create habitat but it's like owning land is expensive private land is vital to wildlife conservation we're incentivizing landowners to be good stewards of the land by rewarding them for providing this habitat to a state resource it all had like you know there's no case you can't go to any case of any kind of tag allocation and point to it as being like um completely self-serving counterproductive right it's all things meant to meant to lubricate facilitate wildlife management in the country and find funding for wildlife resources and a problem with what's happening in arizona and again it blows my mind that they voted 4-1 to get rid of auction tags because the hope is that they're going to use it in raffles.

So here's another tag thing. I always join state raffles, a bunch of them. You can put in for a tag, as everybody does, or you can buy raffle tickets. I just looked at one today. There's a raffle in Alaska right now. It's $100 per ticket, and it's a full all-expense paid. It's a caribou tag that comes with guides. So you get caribou tags, guides, and all that.

Trip for two. I didn't buy a ticket, but it's $100 for a ticket. It's going to raise a ton of money for Alaska, but it's not an auction. It's a raffle, meaning they're looking and saying, I think people that really want to get involved, I don't think $100 is prohibitive. There's other things where for $5

a ticket, you can try to get raffle tags in addition to the normal tag drop. They think they can compensate for the loss of funds with a raffle that would raise as much money as that? Raise half a million dollars, potentially, for that one bighorn tag or elk tag in Arizona? Well, this isn't apples and apples, but I'll give you an example of the power of raffles.

So every year, Giannis and I do that Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership turkey hunt giveaway. Yep. So we volunteer our time. A landowner volunteers their place, and we do a hunt with winners. So we used to do that hunt as an auction. Okay? And it would be that the highest bidder would get a hunt for him and his buddy. Yeah. would be that the highest bidder would get a hunt for him and his buddy yeah um people were like

disappointed in this because how can they compete yeah they don't have 10 000 20 000 5 000 more okay the people would pay so like we kind of felt that right i was like yeah maybe there's another way and it's more complicated but we instituted a raffle hunt. And the thing about doing a raffle hunt by law, for that kind of raffle hunt, you have to have a way for people to enter for free. Sweepstakes law. You can't do those nonprofit giveaways without having a free option. Even despite that, when we went to a raffle,

10 bucks gets you a ticket, we tripled the money. Really? For TRCP, we tripled the money. When we went from auction to raffle. How did you figure out the free way to enter? You just got to go on some website, write some letter in, and send it in. We've never had a free entry win. It's a random draw.

And as far as I know, we've never had a free entry win. I don't think anybody does it. It's like $10. I don't think anyone's really out there working that hard to try to avoid a $10 payment. You know what? Talking about the big auction tags, I would love to hear someone, like the most extreme but also intelligent case for why those auction tags are detrimental.

I'd really like to hear that argument because it's possible that stuff like this is short-sighted and it's like, yeah, we can get $700,000 for this tag today, but this is building this mechanism into the model that 50 years from now is going to turn into something crazy where all the bighorn tags and wherever are auction tags all of a sudden. That's because I see both sides of it too.

And at first I don't have any problem with it. I'm like, one tag, one tag. Let that one tag go to do this and build this culture. It also builds this sense of hunting value, which is good for an animal like a bighorn sheep that needs a lot of money, needs a lot of special care, needs a lot of hypersensitive management, transporting animals, working on habitat,

depredation, all this stuff. But I would like to hear a guy that wasn't just mad about not getting to play because he didn't have the money. There's plenty. I mean, the guy that's just mad because some rich guy got it. I'd like to hear an intelligent argument. I think it's the perception that you've pulled. just mad because some rich guy got it. I'd like to hear an intelligent argument.

I think it's the perception that you've pulled. And governor's tags are more than just bighorns. Yeah, elk tags, mule deer. There's governor's tags for most of the suite of big game animals. Yeah. I think it's that you've pulled an animal out of the public pool. Or you've created a tag in addition to the public pool. And if that's the case, you're like, well, where'd that come from? If we can kill that bighorn in addition to the ones we were doing before,

was it just arbitrary, the number of tags that were available before? So you're saying there's another tag. We can get another bighorn, but that one's not available to working class people who are applying all their life and will never draw it. You're sort of out of the blue creating one for rich people to be able to go and kill bighorn. Yeah, so why wasn't it there before? To kill a desert bighorn. Why wasn't it there before? Yeah. Well, why can't I have a shot at it? for rich people to be able to go and kill a desert bighorn. Why wasn't it there before?

Why can't I have a shot at it? And again, it's just very surprising to me that this went 4-1, especially the fact that it comes on a number of very, coming on the tail of a bunch of very high-profile auctions, record-setting big game auctions. If it was in decline and you're seeing that the tags are devalued and pretty soon guys are buying the auction tag for a hundred thousand dollars and you might go like you know what man it's not raising any money anymore it's kind of lost its luster it creates a lot of social tension why not get rid of it it's

weird that it like starts going up up up up into insane amounts of conservation dollars and then they're like then they get well in in the same trend that we see in society at all levels that there's this scrutiny on the ultra wealthy yeah well i think in this case there's like uh very specific examples too that feel kind of icky when it's like the jimmy johns founder like he's had some bad hunting pr in the past and you know it's him buying the tag yeah and it's gonna like go on his wall of 150 other animals and i think for a lot of folks that's just like uh kind of gross but if it was like a no-named fella from nevada like i think one of those record-breaking tags was um that maybe doesn't sting as much to folks and there's a hunting

there's a hunting style that goes with the governor tags that winds up being off putting to people where people all over the mountains there's certain i don't want to get into names on this but there's certain outfitting players that have really there's certain outfitting players that have played really heavy in the governor's tag world and they'll find animals okay they'll put guys on them monitor them around the clock bring a guy in the guy comes in shows up makes the shot and it's kind of like there's a perception that they're not even hunting. Other people are doing it. It leads to, you know, there's cases where they're blocking off roads

to try to impede access. They're harassing other hunters who are in the area. They're putting a guy on every hilltop to watch the animal to make sure no one else gets it. They're going to spook it out of the way if someone else comes, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. All this hysteria. And they didn't even hunt it anyway.

And so then it kind of sours the whole thing. Yeah. But it's like, does the sheep habitat that the money helps, does that sheep habitat care how that guy conducted the hunt? They didn't break the law. Ask Clay's journal about horse happiness. Good point. Hate the player. No.

Don't hate the player. Don't hate the player, hate the game. And in this case, don't hate the player, hate the game. They hated the game, and they got rid of the game. Well, I'm actually kind of pleased to see that it went towards like the vote was towards sure something that was more conservative you'd rather over correct what if they had voted to make six of the tags governor tags now that would be bad we'd all be like now come on well i don't know that would be six times that would mean that there was $66 million gone into while they had that.

But I think that would tip the scales of public sentiment towards, wait a minute, this is getting out of hand. I mean, like 20 years from now, they're all going to be paid for it. But the one, and that's where I would like to hear an intelligent argument of people that had insight maybe even from other realms of society where there's like a slippery slope or something like 20 years from now, your kids are going to be, this is going to happen. I was talking to a guy the other night, and I'd like to get him on the show.

I'm not going to say who said this opinion to me, but I'm going to articulate a guy's opinion that I was talking to the other night. I'd like him to come on the show. He works in policy. He was viewing this as a sort of anti-hunting movement. And he had an interesting perspective. He said, anytime wildlife managers, commissions, whoever, politicians, are presented with a split in hunting.

And there are some hunters, they're presented with two sides of an argument. And there are some hunters on each side. They will go with the anti-hunting side. Meaning, let's say you're looking at a trap ban, a public land trap ban. And they're like, man, I don't want to piss off hunters. let's say you're looking at a trap ban, a public land trap ban, and you're like, man, I don't want to piss off hunters and trappers. But then you get some hunters who are going to come and say,

oh, I like that ban because it's safer for my bird dog. That gives them cover. And he says, invariably, invariably, the minute some hunters give cover to an anti-hunting position the politicians are going to go anti-hunting because it pleases more people well because that's the way they want to go and they need to justify it and the minute they can have a hunter to point to they can tip that way and feel that they're not anti-hunting and he felt and i don't even i don't like i don't agree with him but i want to have him on to talk about it he feels that going away

from governor's tags is a anti-hunting sentiment and i don't really know like i don't i've been wrestling with that since he said it to me, and I don't know that I agree with that. I don't think I agree with it, but I could be swayed, especially in kind of a famously purple state like Arizona, that maybe that is the case

for some things. Yeah, I'd like to hear that argument. No, I want to have Mon to talk about that argument. You guys ready for two Chetikets? Then we're going to wrap it up. Are you going to ask Phil about Disney, you think, or not? I thought about asking him about Disney.

Okay. But I didn't know that Phil could tell our listeners anything about Disney that they didn't already know. That's absolutely not true. Phil took a day off. On a live tour. On the live tour, we had a day off. And Phil...

Was it even a day off, Phil? No, it wasn't. We had a show that night. Phil got up very early in the morning. Sort of like how Spencer woke up at 5.30 to go rockhounding this morning, I woke up at 5.30 to go to a theme park. Phil set his alarm. He set his alarm and woke up early to go rockhounding this morning. I woke up at 5.30 to go to a theme park. Phil spent, set his alarm. Okay.

He set his alarm and woke up early to go by himself to Disney. And we had a lot of jokes about how they're probably going to monitor Phil all day long with security, wondering why a single male of his age would be at Disney. But he went.

And what did you find out, Phil? You'd been there before. Yeah, probably around nine or ten times. How much does it cost to get in? Well, man. It's more or less than a governor's tag. I mean, how much does it cost to get in? This is part of the whole corporate monopolistic stuff that comes in in it was a lot of money clay for like one day at a

theme park i think after like taxes you don't want to share it was like 150 dollars corporate monopoly what do you mean how do they have a monopoly of course no there's theme park well well it's not even just like disney disney owns everything they've got like like tv stations and networks and and sure cruise ships and everything but I'm just saying they find every way to milk as much money as they can, which is their right. When he gets done talking about Disney, I want to talk about what? The government should take over Disney like the Russian Revolution?

Absolutely not. I'm saying over the past 10 or 15 years, Disney has been transforming their theme park experience to be anti-consumer and anti-guest by letting you pay more money to cut in lines, which they didn't used to do. Can I tell you something, Phil? This is Governor's Tag. Can I tell you something, Phil? When my family went, we did the rich people version.

You told me. We bought a thing to let us cut. And I think about you differently now. I was in my element. I had the time of my life. Did you do the log ride? Two bummers. Clay, Splash Mountain, Haunted Mansion.

Two all-timers shut down for renovation. That was bad news. Phil, did you buy the thing to let you cut? No, I did not. Can I tell you? Sometimes privately, I want to tell you about why I bought the cut thing. Okay. I think if I talk to you about it and give you a little background,

I think that you won't dislike me as much. I like that you want me to respect you. It wasn't so you could just cut people. Remind me. It wasn't that simple. Once we get done talking about Disney. I'll tell Phil about it in private later, and I think he'll say, like, I think you did the right thing.

Okay. I want to tell you about the Disney film that Warner Glenn starred in. Whoa. Can I ask Phil one last Disney question? He's not done talking about Disney. I know. I just wanted to, like, put it in before we change subjects, and I can't go into all the details.

Sure. We discussed, I feel like, since the last time you had been there, Phil, they had started allowing their characters to look more like themselves in the real world, where they can have tattoos. Not like characters. You're not going to see Aladdin with his full sleeve,

but their employees. You can have piercings and tattoos. Did you witness that? Did it change the experience? I didn't pay a whole lot of attention. Why would anybody care about that? Because it's Disney. Hold over from a different era. Walt Disney was a very uptight sort of traditionalist,

and they still don't even sell alcohol in the theme park. There's only one place you can get alcohol, and that's at a bar in the Star Wars area. And you feel that Disney has gotten too big. They need to be like a trust buster. They need to break Disney up. Kind of, yeah. But don't you realize that they invented all that stuff?

Yeah. There's a part of me that feels really gross going there. But they're just masters of production design and putting on a show and like like transporting you somewhere else through sounds and smells and sight and stuff it's like our life it's like our live show it's just like our live show apologies to the woman who had a conversation with me after i stuffed my mouth full of sushi last night. That was a sensory experience for her, I'm sure. Anyway, yeah, I had a blast. You had a blast. Yeah, so glad I came on this tour.

Is it fair to say that you have a love-hate? Oh, 100%, yeah. I wouldn't consider myself a Disney adult because they're sort of like Disney can do no wrong. They're very apologetic and they're kind of creepy. I like to keep my arm's length away from those people but I like the show. I like the theatricality

of the whole thing. But you're a critic. I'm a critic, 100%. Good for you, Phil. Thanks, Spencer. I got to go on a bunch of rides. No kids. No people like

Spencer and Clay to drag around. And even though I would have loved for you guys to come, I really wanted Clay to come to Frontierland with me and ride the Davy Crockett canoes to Tom Sawyer Island. But I thought he might say something like, oh, my culture is not your costume, and then punch me in the throat or something. I didn't want to deal with that.

My culture is not your costume. Can you tell us the thing? What was the thing that most... Two questions. What most delighted you on your morning at Disney? And what most irked you at your morning at Disney?

This is not good podcasting material because it's just very deep. I disagree. Deep stuff. This turned into therapy for you. Well, uh rise of the resistance a very uh state-of-the-art new star wars themed ride some of the special effects weren't working when the whole when the whole ride is based around these kind of like cool special effects when two of them aren't working i was disappointed i was disappointed in that kylo ren's lightsaber didn't come through the ceiling the

cannons weren't moving back and forth. Real ones, write me. Let me know that you understand what I'm saying. Indiana Jones, they made some upgrades. The ride was getting a little dusty. Any Cobras in there? Oh, yeah. Big Cobra.

Really? Big Cobra that hisses right at your face. Oh, I love it. It was good. But they added some projections. That was the one line I waited 45 minutes. As far as the longest, I had to wait in line because I did single rider lines. You did like the working man's ticket.

Yeah, that's right. I waited 45 minutes in line. Not the rich snob ticket. Nope, didn't have a VIP guide getting food for me and showing me where the bathrooms were. I had to find them myself like a real hard worker. Like a real American. Like a pioneer. Uh-huh.

Like a pioneer. Like a real American. Like a pioneer. Uh-huh. Like a pioneer. Like Daniel Boone. Your Star Wars experience was like, Yanni wanted for us to ask for some money back from our last hotel because their hot water wasn't working. So he thought we were owed something for that. I didn't ask George Lucas for my money back, though. My wife was recently in a hotel

and they had messed up the bleach in the pool so bad that it bleached her swimsuit. And when she went up to notify him, it like, I mean it bleached her swimsuit. What did it do to her skin? Well, that's what she was curious about. And she went up and they were treating her like a big diva.

She's like, listen, look at my swimsuit. It bleached my slip suit. Anyway, thanks for asking, Steve. Yeah? Yeah. Here's two chatticots. Ready for this? I am a law enforcement officer.

This is a juicy one. That's not the right word. It's juicy. I'm a law enforcement officer on a state forest, which is open to hunting and fishing. A benefit to this job is I get a take-home truck, which is marked. I also hunt the same areas I work.

My boss has given me the okay to hunt before and after work out of the state truck. Hunting out of the state truck seems like an all-around win. I am much more able to respond to emergencies after hours, when most of them occur, and I have more time to hunt because i don't have to go home and switch trucks seeing a law enforcement truck parked in the woods may deter illegal activity despite all this i can't help but feel dirty about hunting out of the state truck since some hunters may think i am targeting them specifically because they are hunting in quote my spot or i am taking quote their spot i am very careful to not hunt

the same places i have recently checked other hunters it may also blow my spots out because other hunters often think i know all the best spots. What are your thoughts? He says, seeing a law enforcement truck parked in the woods may deter illegal activity. I think it would just deter activity in general, even of like a law-abiding fella. If you were like coming down and you saw a law enforcement vehicle, a trailhead, you could imagine all sorts of things are taking place there.

Dead body. Yeah. I think I'll just go hunt somewhere else. So I think not just illegal activity, activity in general. Folks are going to avoid you. I think it's kind of the same story of an outfitter not hunting

in their outfitting concession. It's kind of double-dipping. Even though the guy probably has pure motives, the guy's probably legit, it really wouldn't do any harm, but there's just too many too many over... I wouldn't do it

because I feel like it would expose me to more scrutiny than I would want. Hmm. I just feel like in his community, it'd be hard to justify. I mean, because it's like you're having to explain to people, well, it's okay for me to use the company truck on my private time because that's part of my contract. And that may not be a part of some... I mean, there's just all these little fine details. I think it's... I don't think it's the highest,

I don't think it's taken the highest road. But you hate to fault the guy for having to go to like a different county to hunt either. Like I think he's a good guy. I don't think he's trying to cheat the system. But I don't, I think it's, there's a little drama in there maybe down on public land what's your take chili well i mean he's on public land yeah i know i'm sorry

i mean if you if you're of the mindset where you don't feel like you have to explain yourself to everyone like if he got the clearance like who who's business, like it's not, it's like, who am I to go up to him and be like, well, can you do this? You know, I don't, I think I'd be totally fine with it if I was a game warden FWP. But what if you were hunting and you saw this game warden coming out hunting all these spots? I'd be like, good for him.

Yeah. I mean, again, like it's not, it's just one of those things that like i wouldn't personally ask questions about it yeah i mean like i'd see him and i'd probably just do see his truck and be like okay well he's hunting so i'm gonna go to the next spot and then but like to your point what you when you capped off everything you know the only reservation i do have about it like if it were me would be like, okay, well, if I'm a game warden, everyone probably thinks I know where the game's at.

And they probably have a better idea than most people where a game's at. So I would be a little bit conservative about going out where a lot of people have access to. Because if that's like my honey hole, I'd be concerned about other people wanting to hunt there. But anything outside of that, I'd say go for it. Yeah. Personally. hole i'd be concerned about other people want to hunt there yeah but anything outside of that i'd

i'd say go for it yeah personally ready for the next one what's your take you're not gonna answer here's what i'd do i'd take your regular rig and park it out at the entrance. Just leave it there. Drive the take-home truck, whatever. When you hunt, pull out, park the work rig out at the entrance to the forest at the office or whatever. Hop in your regular rig and hunt. You don't need to go all the way home. Leave the regular rig out there. You got a rig sitting somewhere anyway.

Yeah. If you're going home and you need to go do something that's not your take-home responsibility, park that truck and jump in the other truck. But as far as using the mark. So you're foreseeing problems with hunting out of a state truck. I'm like, listen, man. I'm off in a whole other area. I know.

I'm not telling them whether it's right or wrong. I'm telling them how just to make it a non-issue. But then he's still using his own personal gas to go drive when, you know, that's the thing. He gets a take-home truck. It means he can drive that truck wherever. That's a pretty big perk. Okay, but if you're worried about it, park a quad runner.

His wife is like, drive the state truck. Park your Can-Am. Park whatever the hell. Park your regular rig. Yeah. Park your whatever, your regular rig yeah park your whatever your normal rig i don't know park something at the thing and then when you when you switch to hunt mode go grab your rig in terms of hunting where you work dude it's like come on you can't you're not the the it's like you work there that's great it's public land go hunt it yeah you can't

be like well i'm not it's it's not right for me to hunt around where i work i mean come on if you worry about the trip the if you worry about the perceptions of the truck just leave You can't be like, well, it's not right for me to hunt around where I work. I mean, come on. If you worry about the perceptions of the truck, just leave a different rig out there. I haven't been there, so I'd have to go over there and look for them and show them where I think I should park. I'm just making the assumption that it works. Ready for this one? This next one doesn't even seem like a moral question. It seems like a legality question.

Can I read it first? Yeah, okay. You're right. He's thinking morals when he should be thinking about getting himself in a lot of trouble. Yeah, okay, good. Dear Meat Eater, I have lived in southern Utah for the last few years. I previously lived in Idaho and have a valid Idaho driver's license. I just moved to the Utah side of the Utah-Idaho border and in doing so renewed my

combination license in Idaho using my Idaho driver's license to purchase it as a resident. I also have a current resident combination license in Utah. My question for you is would it be unethical to listen buddy sincerely concerned hunter okay you have on you have on your hands just a simple black and white issue of call fishing game i don't care which state you want to call it, in Idaho or Utah, and say, hey, how many states can I hunt as a resident in at any one given time?

And see what they say. The answer you will get is one. And states don't mess around with that. It's like tag draw season right now. When you go to log in to apply for a tag somewhere, the first question from every state asks you, like, are you a resident? resident swear on your firstborn child yeah yeah you got that and it's like and here's the other thing if you get into the fine print they spell out what a resident is in very clear

detail and it will be in a level of detail that exceeds that of which it requires to have a driver's license. There is no room. If you look at what they mean when they say you're a resident, there is no room for you to even plausibly suggest you're a resident of both states. Being in possession of a driver's license that hasn't been punched or devalidated does not make you a legal resident of a state. It just means that you have a driver's license in your pocket. It's like emblematic of residency but that does not make a resident. He didn't leave his name.

Smart. Listen buddy, I'm not mad at you. You did the right thing by asking But yeah just be careful I wouldn't even be walking If I was you I would figure out what is what And go back and

Clear it up And give that tag back and clarify That you shouldn't be in possession of it Because you don't even want to be holding Resident tags from two states Whether or not you validate them on an animal or not Thanks everybody be in possession of it. Yeah. Because you don't even want to be holding resident tags from two states, whether or not you validate them on an animal or not. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, everybody.

It's getting colder on the water Weatherman says it's gonna rain Fire up the men's quota I'm a trout marauder Never trust his word anyway. Hit the Bass Pro Shop on my way through town. Roosters and Panthers, it's going down. Hammer down that boat launch.

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My reel is shit. And my rig won't spin Got blue mountains To devour The fish aren't biting Reel them in A 55 hour work week is a sin Where does my life begin Lord I keep praying for a win Fish are biting

Real men for a win Fish are biting real men 55 hour work week is a sin Where does my life begin Lord I keep praying for a win The fish I'm biting Real fish

The fish I'm biting The fish I'm biting The fish on Biden The fish on Biden The fish on Biden Real men Alright. That's a song, dude.