The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 611: The Duck Stamp Champ

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Steven Rinella talks with Chuck Black, Emily Lian, Danielle Prewett, Kelsey Rae Morris, Brent Reaves, Max Barta, Corinne Schneider, and Phil Taylor. Topics discussed: Phelps' Cutting the Distance episode with Luke Combs; Brent Reaves straight off the World Squirrel Cookout; the Arizona raffle; MeatEater and Sig Sauer’s new collab ammo; MeatEater’s Wild + Whole cookbook by Danielle Prewett; pheasant feet; the Junior Duck Stamp competition; winning the Federal Duck Stamp competition as the highest honor for an artist; the five birds you can paint; surpassing the $1 billion dollar mark since the Federal Duck Stamp Program began; when art means conservation storytelling; studying the Fibonacci Sequence; collecting stamps; starting with pet portraits; the carrier image; waiting for the hen to arrive; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this. OnX Hunt is now in Canada. It is now at your fingertips, you Canadians. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. Now the Hunt app is a fully functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints and tracking. You can even use offline maps to see where you are

without cell phone service as a special offer. You can get a free three months to try out OnX if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. Welcome to the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-t-l-i-t-e.com hey guys before you listen to this show that you're listening to right now i want to plug something you're going to be listening to at the end of the show uh our buddy jason phelps has a podcast cutting the distance of course and he was recently on an elk hunt with country music singer Luke Combs down in New Mexico, and they sat down and did an episode

of Cutting the Distance together. So we're going to put a little snippet of that here because it's great, and then you can go over and listen to the rest and check out Cutting the Distance and subscribe to the Cutting the Distance podcast. Thank you. distance and subscribe to the cutting the distance podcast thank you phil's here all riled up go i knew you were gonna do this all pissy not even gonna get into that good that was pissy it's phil can you? Yeah. Should I hold the big thing or this thing? You can do both.

Okay. The big thing would be nicer. Okay. It's the time of year. I don't want people to lose sight of what we're doing here. It's the time of year when you go, you're like, oh shit, I got to buy my duck stamp. Great. And this is not a lie.

I just got mine today. Oh. This is not a lie. They're in stock today. Oh. This is not a lie. They're in stock now? Great. Where'd you go? Post office? My desk.

I had someone grab it for me. I'll have to do that. Hopefully a couple end up on my desk. I was a little low on time, and Kylie grabbed some. I needed two. It's a long story. It's time of year when you gotta go buy your duck stamp.

You know, we're gonna do this without talking about the movie Fargo. No one ever does that. I love it. They can't, they never do it without talking about Fargo, do they? No. You people who have seen Fargo know what I'm getting at. It's time of year when you gotta go buy your duck stamp, and we have an extremely special guest. We have

the person that painted the damn duck stamp. The most prestigious it's got to be, right? That's what they say. I'm going to ask someone who's not you. I'm going to ask another painter. Yeah. Okay. We also have, there's so much going on with this show, it's complicated.

We also have the junior duck stamp winner joining from South Korea where it's 1am so I'm trying to be aware of her time she's good for a minute yeah okay so we're good all right Kelsey uh Kelsey we had Kelsey Morris come in she's up normally no no discredit Chuck she's normally our she's the resident wildlife artist yeah she's the resident painter is is justter. She's the resident painter. Just how prestigious is it? You don't paint ducks. No. But I'm very aware it's the highest honor. It's the highest honor in waterfowl painting.

Yeah. It's the pinnacle. That's what people... We were talking about this earlier. People strive their entire careers year on year to win the duck stamp. Like in Fargo. You said you were going to do it. Yeah, you said you were going to do it.

We made it three minutes. Two cents stamp. But yeah, it's a high honor. It's the pinnacle of the duck stamp career, you know, to win the duck stamp. And this year, it was Montanon, Chuck Black won from right local. Yeah, Belgrade. How many times have you submitted?

This is my 10th time. Has anyone ever won it twice? Do you call it winning it? What do you call it? Yeah, winning it. Winning it, yeah. No, there's three brothers from Minnesota. A couple people now, I think, have won it twice.

But the three brothers, the Hotmans, now I think have won it twice but the three brothers the Hotmans which is what they referenced in Fargo which is funny how old that movie is and they were winning back then

I think combined between the three they're at 15 now are they still putting in yeah they won the last two years

I want to say what yeah so this was my year because when you win you have to sit out for three. Oh, that's interesting. It's like drawing a toke manager unit tag.

Yeah. So they won the last two years, and I was like, this is my year. I got to get in while they're out. Wow. No kidding. We're going to talk about that whole world. Max Bart is here just because he likes to hunt ducks a lot. Yep.

And you've bought many a duck stamp. Many. Yeah. But I haven't bought mine this year, so this is a good reminder. I keep buying more than I need on accident because every year I forget that my kids don't need them, but I buy them for my little kids, and then I later realize they didn't need them. Yeah. I typically buy at least three a year, One for me, one for my dog, and then like maybe a couple spares just in case if someone

doesn't have them. It's a good thing to buy in excess. Yeah. Yeah. Because all the money goes to wetlands conservation. So give them back a little bit. Brent Reeves is here, fresh from the squirrel cook-off. Full as a tick. I was telling Brent, my buddy,

I have a trapper buddy who I was talking to him about binoculars yesterday and he just mentioned casually in passing, he just got back from seeing Brent Reeves at the Squirrel Cook-Off as though that's like a thing to go do. Oh man, apparently a lot of people thought that. There was thousands of people there.

It was good. It was 40 teams every year. They limit it to 40, and then they come in with their recipe, their squirrels. If they don't have squirrels, they supply them for them there. It's all free. It's a good family deal. It was just a great event. What kind of loser would go to a squirrel cook-off without squirrels?

Well, I mean, where's the team there from Alaska last year? They should have a bunch of pine squirrels. Well, gray squirrels and fox squirrels. That's what you're limited to cook. It's resident there of Arkansas. And if you don't have them, the good folks there

in the natural state... I didn't mean to hack right out of the gate like that. I don't know. That's cool. Yeah, and you said Phil was busy. I'm glad they got those little squirrels. I'm glad they got squirrels there. Yeah, they're sharing with everybody. Watch this, Chuck Black.

You know how you won the duck stamp contest? Mm-hmm. Well, people could win the Arizona raffle. There you go. You like that little transition? They teach you that at painter school, do they? No. You like that little transition? They teach you that at painter school, do they? We've been talking a bunch about in Arizona,

talked about it way too much, about Arizona's wildlife commission, their decision to eliminate governor's tag auctions. So their decision to move away from allocating some number of big game tags to the highest bidder and instead moving those tags to raffle systems where everybody can have a chance to win rather than just the highest bidder, as we've explored to the point of nausea, there are trade-offs. There are trade-offs because all of that money, watch this transition, like the duck stamp, all of that auction money goes to support wildlife habitat.

And so they're faced with making this decision to move into a more democratic system of allocation, raffles. There's probably a likely scenario, there's a likely scenario where there's a forfeiture of a lot of conservation money. But you can remedy that. You can help remedy that discrepancy if you go right now

and buy some raffle tickets for Arizona Big Game raffles. They got a bunch of them. There's a mountain lion raffle, coos deer, elk, mule deer, all kinds of raffles. I blew,

not blew, invested. Not blew. Listen, I didn't say that. Cut that out, Phil. Can you play it back or i say invested uh maybe if you didn't call me at the time okay september 1 2024 to december 15 2024 so we are well into the raffle period um you can enter to win all kinds of gear packages, but you can also enter to win big game tags.

I went out the other day and spent, I bought 10 mule deer raffle tags. So I invested $100 into my mule deer hunt. And hopefully they will do such good business on these raffles of just people throwing in 10 bucks a pop here and there to help make up for what could wind up being a net conservation loss. Am I saying this too strongly? No. A net conservation loss by moving away from governor's tags. They had their logic to the decision. If you're curious about that logic, go back and listen to every other podcast we've made lately.

Oh, and you can purchase now until ending at 9 p.m. Arizona time on December 15th. But now that I bought my tent, I don't want any. Whoever goes on there, don't do the mule deer one. I'm hoping I'm the only one that did Mule Deer and I win that thing. Good luck. You're not going to be the only one. No. I always buy into these raffles.

I haven't bought into Arizona, but I'm buying into Arizona. Whenever they have a Montana raffle or Alaska raffle, I always buy in. And there are all kinds of other prizes. And then the more you buy, there are discounts. I mean, they've set it up in a great way. Yep. Okay, we got a new... Folks, I'll check this out.

We got a new Colab ammo we've worked on with our buddies at Sig Sauer. And we have a new bonded lead ammo which is out now and you can go check it out i'm packing right now to go moose hunting i'm not i'm not personally moose hunting this year but uh my buddies are moose hunting i'm going with them i'm just my job is to call and observe and this is what we're shooting on moose this is what i've been shooting on moose because it's loaded with a nozzler acubond bullet which uh you know they fly superbly well and are very very good on big game so it's it is a lead ammo if you're hunting an area where you're not supposed to use lead,

if you're in the condor recovery area, whatever, areas of California, not for you. Stick to all copper in those places. But when you want a really high-performance bullet, check out the new Platinum Hunter line that we have out from SIG. It is phenomenal stuff. Anyone who knows who's ever shot acubons knows just for performance it's great again not appropriate for your uh non-toxic areas

but when you got a big hunt and you're really counting on it check it out uh okay we're gonna go to danielle now oh there she is danielle what's up hi who killed that lion in the background i'm in uh my son's nursery right now that travis shot that um yeah so i had a broadcast on friday in my office and the the wi-fi was terrible and the wi-fi box is right next to his nursery so that's why I'm in here. But there's still a lion in the background. Yeah, it's right above his changing table. Yeah.

That way he feels nice and safe when he's getting changed. Well, you know, Travis said you can do whatever you want with the nursery as long as the cat stays in there because this used to be his office. Danielle's in a nursery. Behind her is her changing table and perched over it is a stuffed mountain lion like he's waiting for

the baby to show up so he can nail it. Danielle's got a brand new cookbook out wild and whole seasonal recipes for the conscious cook danielle phenomenal cook uh tell us about the book man first off when can folks find it uh october 8th okay it's the pub date so right around the corner i don't know when this this podcast is being released, but October 8th, it's coming out wherever books are sold.

Yeah, and so this is a project I've been working on, I want to say for about three or four years. Dude, it's really long time. Oh, yeah. It's really beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I spent a long, long time thinking yeah it's really beautiful thank you thank you um yeah i spent a long long time thinking

about it um i had some a couple publishers reached out to me um a few years ago asking for me to do a cookbook and so once i started to think about what i wanted to do and really like what's missing in the market of cookbooks um i kind of came to the realization that one, I wanted to do something that represented me and the way that I live and that lifestyle and type of cooking that I do. But two, all wild game cookbooks are just that. They're just all wild game. And so I really wanted to have something else besides just that, like, what else are you eating with the protein? Like what are the other foods on your plate? Um, so that's kind of, um, how the book got started and, um, it's organized through this season. So unlike other books,

which are normally like categorized on big game, small game, or however um this is organized through the seasons which i think is is pretty exciting yeah you uh i don't you're the main if i go to get a recipe somewhere you're the main place i would go to get a recipe well that's nice yeah you're mostly the only person who's like actual recipes i follow really yeah i mean i make a lot of stuff i make a lot of stuff without really paying attention to what i'm making but yeah i wind up having a lot of your food and then i like specifically make your recipes i like your recipes that much well that is that's a big compliment. I appreciate it. I think, you know, I think what I try to do with recipes is just like, well, there's a lot of things that I think about attainable but um is practical in a way that you would actually cook at home I think a lot of recipes like really kind of want you to like grab a bunch of stuff and like get your whole kitchen dirty and so I try to be really conscious of like the way that you're actually cooking at home and like especially now that i have a baby

i'm like how can i do this with less dishes um i haven't always thought that way but i think that way now for sure yeah tell me about the cover because it's kind of a bolt these are pheasants on the cover yeah i actually have the book yeah i'm holding it it's a little bit of a bold cover because on the cover are some pheasants which are beautiful but you opted to have the book yeah i'm holding it it's a little bit of a bold cover because on the cover are some pheasants which are beautiful but you opted to have the feet stuck on there still yeah did anybody like did anybody in cookbook land try to warn you off that like it was like too too much no so they were very adamant like you know the cover of the book has to be something that says wild food.

And I was like, okay, that's great. Bird's foot. Well, you know, I actually posted a video of cooking dove on social media. And it's really kind of funny because people get real offended by looking at bird feet. Oh, I think it's gorgeous, though. It looked like a lame-ass book otherwise, but it's like two beautifully cooked pheasant. Not lame, but it wouldn't be like,

I wouldn't look and I would look and I'd see like, I don't know, I'd be like, oh, chickens or something. I don't know what the hell that thing. But your look. That's part of the reason why I kept it on, is like you can see the, it's a rooster. It's not a farm- pheasant um but anyway so yeah there's a bird that i shot it's got big old spurs no it's it's not aggressive and i didn't mean to be lame it's a beautiful book it's a beautiful picture but it like it kind of just comes right out and says something to you know with those

trust pheasants with their their feet on there it's it's it's very arresting it's um yeah there was a there was a topic of debate um and i'm very surprised that penguin random house they were all on board with it i thought they were going to kind of have an issue with it of like oh no this is really going to scare people off but i think it also because of the way that it's styled, it looks more elegant. And I think it's, you know, it's really common, especially in Europe, like people aren't afraid of seeing feet on a bird. I think it's just an American thing that people get freaked out because, you know, people don't want to be reminded that this was once an animal. They want to like, they want to have the departure between the living thing

and then the thing that you're eating. So keeping the feet attached really just gets under people's skin. And I think that might be one of the reasons why I kept the feet on for this photo is because that's kind of a big part of what this book is about, is understanding and knowing where your food comes from. You said it was seasonally. it's like organized seasonally but how many recipes are in here all together oh i don't know i don't know really it's kind of well you know i started this i had to cut a lot of stuff so i don't remember how many actually made it over 80. I know that's like the average for 80, and I guess it depends on what you consider recipe

when you start getting into the back of it where you've got like, you know, spice rubs and all those other kind of add-on things in the back. I love the seasonality of it. I'm just looking at one here, like turkey with morels and asparagus. That's all the things we would have at that time. And to have a recipe that you just have these because you've been out in the woods and you have your turkey and you found some morels and you got asparagus in your yard. Here's your meal. That's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think that was important to me because I think anybody who spends a lot of time in the outdoors can relate to the ebbs and flows of each season. And I wanted people to pick up a season and get really excited about what you can find outdoors. Because a lot of times you kind of just pick a recipe from from like whatever, whatever you want to eat at any time of the year. But as somebody who cooks a lot, I know that tomatoes are really only good in the summer. And so I think I think that was a really important part is to sort of embrace this idea of living in the moment, because every season offers something really special and it's something to get excited about. So I try to do a lot of storytelling in this book and each season, you know, like there's just always something to just really love, whether it's the waterfowl migration

and in the winter or yeah, like turkeys and morels in the spring, there's always something. Well, congratulations, congratulations man it's gorgeous thank you i can tell a lot of work went into it yeah it's very beautiful it's uh it's uh really elegant nice really nice thanks thank you um so everybody check that out meat eaters wild and whole seasonal recipes for the conscious cook danielle pruitt this is your first book danielle it is yeah so this is all the like this is all the recipes that really have a lifetime of creation into them yeah there's a handful of them that are like the tried and true recipes that i cook all the time that i was excited to put in there and then of course there's tons of new things, but yeah,

the first book, it's definitely kind of like my baby. Sure, man. Cause it winds up being the, all your like mega favorites go into, go into a first project. Yeah.

It's, it's odd. Whenever I was working on the book, I had so much time that it almost worked against me because I've reworked things too many times. And then once I completed the manuscript it was like the brain pathway opened to creative output and it was just like it just kept on rolling and there's like so many things now that i wish were in the book that aren't book number two number two yeah yep hey congratulations Number two. Number two. Yeah. Yep. Hey, congratulations on the new baby too.

Thank you. Yeah. He's nine weeks old. Wow. Congrats. I haven't been getting very much sleep, so I'm not sure if the words coming out of my mouth are really making sense. No, you're making perfect sense.

And you know, when we would, when we were having our little kids, like, I think at around nine months of age, this gross people out. But at nine months of age, we'd start, like, we'd chew up deer meat and just stick it in their mouth. That's like birds. We would do that, man. Isn't that weird? You know, maybe it'll become a new trend, Stu. Yeah, we'd start giving them pre-chewed deer meat, dude. They'd love it.

A little hot tip for you. Can't you just give it to them and let them chew on it too, though? I don't remember how old, but when they were real little. Yeah, around nine months, I feel like we'd start giving them deer meat. And I would initially just kind of give it a little quick gnaw and then hand it to them. Just tenderize it a little quick gnaw and then hand it to them just tinge it a little yeah they're all fine they're like you these are kids are like mega healthy man i don't know just a hot tip for you i'll try that report back to us on

you got seven months to think about it yeah all right thanks for joining danielle appreciate you coming on congratulations on the book everybody check out yeah this beautiful new cookbook by danielle pruitt thank you guys thank you thanks danielle hey folks exciting news for those who live or hunt in canada and boy my goodness do we hear from the canadians whenever we do a raffle or a sweepstakes. And our raffle and sweepstakes law makes it that they can't join. Whew. Our northern brothers get irritated. Well, if you're sick of, you know, sucking high and titty there, OnX is now in Canada. The great features that you love in OnX are available for your hunts this season. The Hunt app is a fully

functioning GPS with hunting maps that include public and crown land, hunting zones, aerial imagery, 24K topo maps, waypoints, and tracking. That's right, we're always talking about OnX here on the MeatEater podcast. Now you

guys in the Great White North can be part of it. Be part of the excitement. You can even use offline maps to see where you are without cell phone service. That's a sweet function. As part of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services

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onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX club, y'all. Alright, we're going to haveall. Before we dig in with our esteemed guest, Chuck Black, we're going to have a quick check-in with the junior Duck Stamp winner who's joining us from South Korea.

What are you doing in South Korea? Hi. I'm studying abroad right now because in the U.S. I go to the University of North Carolina. But for our first semester in college, they sent us to Korea University to study. So we've been having a lot of fun here. Got it. So you when you did the so you were in high school when you did the duck stamp? Yes. And you I'm trying to understand this right. You were in high school when you did the duck stamp? Yes. And you, I'm trying to understand this right, you were in an art class where the teacher is so dedicated to the duck stamp contest that half of the junior duck stamp winners come out of this one art class?

Yes, that's true. Whenever we have our ceremony for Oregon, it's just like half of the entire list is just from our class. She's very passionate about it. We need to get that teacher on. Yeah, by the numbers over there. So how many years did you submit? Probably also like 10 years.

I've been doing this since I was like seven. Incredible. You've been painting ducks since you were seven? I mean, I probably wasn't that good at it when I was seven. But yeah, I've been going at it for like every single year. It's like a tradition at this point. Huh. Do you think you're going to keep going for uh as an adult once you

got to enter the general competition i think maybe um when i have time in college i'll do it but i also have heard that the adult contest is much harder than the dream yeah i can see that maybe i could see that maybe being true. How old do you have to be to keep doing the junior duck stamp? 17, I think, is the cutoff. So it's like K through 12. Okay. Gotcha.

So tell us about the stamp, the painting you did this year for the junior duck stamp winner. This year I painted a King Eider. And I've never actually, like, seen a King Eider in real life, unfortunately. But I just thought the colors were super beautiful. And it was my last year doing the junior duck stamp. So I wanted to do something really bold, confident, something special. No, it's beautiful. It's a really nice perspective on it.

And I got to say, so the winner is a judge at the junior. Okay. So they flew me out to be a judge. Oh, cool. And it does not do it justice. Like I thought Emily's work. So hold on, you saw this? Yeah. He judged that.

Well, I thought you were the judge next year then. No. So I won in September and then the junior is in April. Oh, okay. So, yeah. So you just watched that painting? Yeah, I did. Did you vote against it or for it?

For it. I think I had her tied with another one that I liked, and then I guess the rest of the judges pushed it over. Really? Yeah. But I want to say it doesn't do it justice. I thought the colors really showed up in person. You know what, Emily? I forgot to introduce you as em is it lean how do you pronounce your last name i believe it's lean yeah lean okay um where did you go to high school

i went to high school in oregon at sunsa high school i was kind of like in the portland area that was our big marching band competition school. Oh, yeah. Like that was your rival in marching band? It was, yeah. Actually? Oh, yeah, yeah. I grew up in Vancouver, Washington across the river, so yeah.

Bill and Emily, if you can throw down. Anyway. So when you win the Junior Duck Stamp, is it just honor? Is there like a, do you win when you win the junior duck stamp uh is it just honor is there like uh do you win something i think there was like like a cash prize but i think a lot of the experience was like being able to like go out to the ceremony and like meeting all the people it was so cool and like meeting all the collectors is really special. How much cash are we talking about?

I can find it online, so I'm not prying. A thousand. You got a thousand bucks? Oh, great. What'd you do with it? I probably spent it all on food here already. So you used it to feed yourself. That's great.

That's a good use of your money. So since you won the Junior Duck Stamp competition, So you used it to feed yourself. That's great. That's a good use of your money. So since you won the Junior Duck Stamp competition, you finished high school in Portland, and then you enrolled in college, and you're in college now, and you're going to college where? To the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Is that Tar Heels? Yep. Yep. Yep. And then for your first semester, they then send you overseas to South Korea to study. Yeah, that's right. All right, man. Do you have it in your mind that you now ought to,

you need to go see a King Ider? I think I might have to. Like, meet the duck that gave me all this yeah i think you yeah you honestly have to i think you should and then uh i also understand that this this struck me i pick i always pictured that everyone that paints ducks especially for duck stamps likes to hunt ducks you've never hunted ducks i've never hunted ducks in my life no do you have any desire to hunt ducks i think i might i might have to try it out one day actually but i've never really had the opportunity to when you get back in the u.s you can come if you want to come hunt ducks with us you can come hunt ducks with us, you can come hunt ducks with us. Oh, really? Is this an invitation?

It is. It is. Like December, early January would be the time you want to do it. I'm not joking. If you come up, we'll take you duck hunting. She told me her favorite thing to eat is duck. Yeah, that's what I read about. Let's go.

So you like eating duck, but you don't hunt ducks. I do. I had it last week. There's a great way to get ducks. You want to buy a cookbook. It's an invite. It's called Duck Hunter. No, I'm serious.

If you want to come out sometime in December, early January, just talk to Corinne. We'll take you duck hunting. We'll show you what a duck looks like. We'll be like, that's an actual duck. Not a king eider. Not a king eider. We'll show you what a mallard looks like.

Well, hey, thanks for joining us, Emily. Yeah, thank you so much. What time is it where you're at? It's 1 a.m.? It's almost 2 a.m. now. I got to go to sleep. Yeah, man. Thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, good luck on the future. I hope you keep painting. Congratulations. Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, congratulations. That's super cool. Yeah, man. Thanks for taking the time. Yeah, good luck on the future. I hope you keep painting. Congratulations. Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, congratulations. That's super cool. Thanks, Emily. Bye.

All right, Chuck, you ready to dig in? Sure. Okay, can I ask you a question first about duck stamps? Mm-hmm. Wasn't it a thing, like, wasn't there some little, like controversy recently where you're not allowed to have a person in were they trying to make it a rule that you had to start having a hunter in the duck stamp is this do you know i'm talking about a hunting element which did that happen or not happen it happened and i want to say it was two or three years that that was a requirement to put into your design, which I'm not opposed.

But I think a lot of the artists, and I definitely felt similar, were frustrated because it's hard enough to paint the duck. And then when you have to try and compose it to make it all work with, like, a Labrador in the background or... Just put a shotgun shell floating. Right. Just put a shotgun shell floating in the background. Or a shell floating in there and that's you know and then that's what one but then i think there's controversy in that because that's not what we're supposed to do as sportsmen but it was painted the painting was taken right before he picked it up yeah right yeah yeah yeah so i i think the number of entries dropped a little bit did Did it really? Oh, wow. I can see that. I entered once.

I tried that, and I didn't do it the following year because, I mean, it adds more time. It's hard when you're just complicating the design. And so I think a lot of artists advocated, like, just let us do what we want, and if we want to do a hunting element. Yeah, so. How many submissions did they get every year for the duck stamp? Around 200, and that's down a lot from the 90s where I think the height of it was like 2,200.

Wow. But that was like when the Fargo movie came out. Like that was like that era. So you want to talk about Fargo. This is the third mention. You're going to keep track. I was trying to avoid Fargo, but you want to talk about Fargo. But yeah, I mean, I think over the years and I agree.

I mean, it's frustrating as an artist when there's so many top artists that enter it. And if you're a beginner or somebody that's not as advanced, I mean, it's frustrating to spend so much time on something and then it gets thrown out within the first round, you know? So the entries have just kind of been slowly declining and it's been focusing more on the top artists. How do you submit? You just mail it in with a entry fee check, 125 bucks, and then they have a public contest every year in September. So that's coming up next, not this weekend, but the next. So that's it. Yep.

And then explain how the process of selecting a winner goes. So when you submit it, how big you submit the original. That's the original size. So it's a seven by 10 inch painting. Is that, is that like the rule? That's a lot smaller than I would have thought. And I think logistically, I mean, they got deal with 200 entries. It's a, it's a traveling judging every year.

So, I mean, they, I think there's only two people that run the Duck Stamp program. So shout out to, oh my gosh, now I'm blanking. Now I'm in the cameras. Shout out to Suzanne. And, oh my gosh. We can look it up for you. We can look it up. Well, I should not forget this and they're going to hate me, but Jen, Suzanne and Jen.

Well, no, it's fine. Cause you're in the hot seat right now. I know. Right. You just got off the phone with your future competition. Sorry, Suzanne and Jen, but they're them to run it. And so, you know, two people run this whole thing and they have to handle all of these entries. But they run it for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Yeah. So they're employees. Yeah. And then they pick five different judges every year. Okay. And they don't review who those are until, I don't know, maybe a day or two before. Are they usually, are those judges usually past winners? No.

So they're either, like it could be somebody in an art profession, an ornithologist, somebody that works at DU, somebody that maybe is like a former refuge manager. So it's always kind of like a, you never know who it's going to be, but they're either bird experts, biology, art experts, things like that. And they choose five judges. And then they have the first round, which is in or out. So they go through all the entries. So they take all those 200 paintings and lay them up in front of the judges they walk one by one and then they either say yes or no yep wow yep and then they have a set number or is it just like that is the initial if there's 100 people that they like the 100 are in if there's five they like five are in yeah so that that's the first round is so each judge which is you know they're isolated from each other they hold up an

i or an o and if you've got three out of five ends then you're into the second round and then the second round oh i'm sorry i just want to make sure i'm understanding yes they're not able to they're not communicating no so they're not influenced by right understood right and so they they they isolate the five judges and then each five judges is shown 200 and they allow they're allowed any number of in and out yeah yeah and so you you just never really know it's not just the individual opinion of each judge. And so when you make it to the second round, then they score one through five scorecards. And if- How many people make it to that round? It varies. I want to say usually no more than 50, probably.

Okay. So they, yeah, they narrow it down quite a bit. And then I think you need to score a 15 or 16 or higher in the second round, and then that gets you into the final round. And then in the final round, they can score a 3, 4, or 5. And then top score wins. If they have a tiebreaker, they do a tiebreaker. And then that's how they narrow it down to the top three.

Then what happens? That's it. Then they announce the winner. Well, you just said top three well yeah they i mean they always they always uh separate a one two and three i see and then second place there yeah and then there's like many people that might be tied for fourth and fifth gotcha gotcha but yeah they want that comes out with a gold medal yeah they want like a three distinct top entries. What are the parameters?

Yeah, what are the parameters of a duck stamp? Like what is, what, what, uh, here's a pun. Yeah, here's a pun. What flies and what doesn't fly? Well, you can't have writing, so it has to be, and you have to have a duck that's alive. Well, it doesn't have to be a duck tundra they pick five species each year and they rotate that so you know what's coming like three years out of three years ahead of time they announce like what each year will be and so you get five choices and they try to rotate through all the birds and i think the last one which i think is eligible this year that's never made on a duck stamp is the cackling goose um but yeah so it's any migratory waterfall

or birds um well but they narrow it sorry keep going they narrow they when you do it so for the for the 2024 duck stamp they said here's the five birds you can paint. Yes. And what were they? Now I'm going to forget. I want to say it was the black duck, the pintail, bluebell. I'm forgetting now. But I knew that I had to do the pintail when I saw that that was coming up a couple years in advance.

I was like, that's my year to enter. Oh, because you're like a pintail when it when i saw that that was coming up a couple years in advance i was like that's my year to enter so oh because you're like a pintail guy well we had acquired the reference in that video you had seen and so like i knew i had something good that i could compose from and so i was like when that bird is eligible again 2023 i'm gonna enter because i'd been missing a couple years because it got to the point where you spend so much time on this, you're trying to make it as an artist. And so you're trying to balance like, well, what is really, uh, effective with your time and to spend so much time on a duck painting and then have it get thrown out, which is normally what happens when I enter, you you know it's difficult so i was being very picky about when i would enter and so like when i had the reference that i wanted

for a pintail i was like hey 2023 i'm gonna enter again now that you do you get to is your original still your original yep so as the artist there's no cash prize but you get to market your own collector prints and then you keep the original well why don't you auction the original off well it is for sale i just haven't gotten the price that i wanted yet yeah yeah everything's for sale for the right price right now i don't want to like i don't want to pry but uh have past dark stamp people had good have they had good success selling the original i would think it'd be a hot commodity dude so the baroos museum in greenwich connecticut and that's where this year's contest is they have i want to say close to 70 originals so prior to that they had

prior to their collection you know it had gone whoever, private collectors. And then one man, Richie Prager, he's been acquiring them the last, I want to say 10 years maybe or so. And then he donated all of them to the museum. So the museum has this mass collection of original paintings. And I think they've got most of them from 1960 or so and on. Got it. But there's an individual who's hot on it there's an individual that buys a lot yeah he started the idea do you auction it through sotheby's or how does it work no that's the real estate outfit who does all those paintings and

stuff they're always on the news christie's yeah maybe that. Oh, Auction House? Yeah. Like the famous art auction. Yeah, it's Christie's. Christie's or there's another one. Christie's and Sotheby's. You know what would be a really good episode we should do someday? What? We should get an auctioneer on.

And then we should ask that auctioneer, why do you sell like fur livestock talking real fast but when they sell art they don't talk fast no they do no they don't i have any art auction i've ever been to they talk really fast really yeah i thought maybe i mean i don't know i don't know about the christies or whatever but yeah those are like you drink wine and champagne and probably talk really slowly. Maybe the bigger the price, the slower the auction. You know, maybe you can try to compute that.

Phil, I know you're in a bad mood. Yeah, let me hear it. Because I asked you a very simple question earlier. Uh-huh. Get out of here. Yeah, what's up, Steveve would we ever be able to do we have the technological capability to you know we do the auction house of oddities yeah could we have an auctioneer come in the studio and do a live auction house of oddities with one of the fast talking auctioneers we could totally do that we could do a live yes we should totally do a live stream prime time auction that'd be fine that

gets people pumped with with uh yes it doesn't get me pumped because i'm always trying to figure out why they're doing that why we can look into the history clay says clay says it just it just it builds excitement but i always think you could just as well be standing there and go 10. No, because it's like people yell. Yeah, they need to get you to pay quickly. Make you feel like the moment's about to slip out of your hands. Yeah, so there's some FOMO there. And they have the callers that are like,

whenever somebody raises their hand. When we do this podcast episode, we'll briefly interview the auctioneer, ask these questions, and then have a live auction house of oddities. So are we going to get like 100 people on a phone call and they're all going to raise their virtual hand? Is that what you're saying? That's what I'm asking about the technology on it. We can figure something out. Yeah, that's how they do a lot of the like art auctions.

There will be a live audience, but then they'll also take online bids. So you call in, you actually call in, or I guess some of them, they have like a, like an eBay style, like bid.

Yeah. So you could totally do it. Yeah. That'd be fun. That'd be a lot of fun, man. No, Chuck,

I don't want to pry, but probably are you, uh, I'm going want to pry. Pry away. I'm going to leave this subject after this. So you have a, is it up right now? Can people go on there and bid on it? Or are you just trying to do a private sale? No, I mean, I just have it. You just have it.

And it is for sale. You're not in a huge rush. No. So you didn't submit it to an auction house or something? No, no, no. So if somebody wants to buy it, contact me. No. That. So you didn't submit it to an auction house or something? No, no, no. No. No. So if somebody wants to buy it, contact me. Yeah. That's kind of.

I got a style question for you. Now, pintails have a big long tail, hence the name pintail. Did you, what was your idea to have it be that the pin, that the tail collides with the edge of the painting and that the bird doesn't have room well yeah why didn't you nudge him forward an inch because now i was worried about the spacing between the bill and the edge of the painting and so i'm trying to like gauge you know and i looked at past pintail winners and some of them are just plain cut the tail off. So I was trying to figure out how to fit barely the full tail and, you know, the whole bird within the painting without, I guess, making it, you know, compositionally weak. So I was, I just did my best to angle it.

I wanted a little bit of space between the bill and the edge of the painting. And then, so I just squeezed it in there. Chuck, can I see that stamp? I want to just take a look. Because you want to have, like, you wanted to have the bird really fill the frame. Right. So it's 7 by 10. You wanted a lot of bird.

And then you got this kind of bird with a weird appendage on the back. Yeah. And it's hard. And, you know, from the side, they have one of the longest side profiles. And it's like it doesn't really fit. So you'd have to really shrink the bird down to include the big long tail coming out the back right yeah and i mean now you're getting into all the nuances of like the artist decisions they have to make to try and i have so many

questions about that get a judge to you know try to win over a judge yeah well good thing you didn't do it flying otherwise you'd take up the whole thing right i mean it yeah and how tough was it how tough was it to mail the did you hand deliver or no you you mail the original out wrap it up like a you know bomb proof and send it overnight how tough is that i mean i'm used to it now that's i mail all my artwork pretty much so we've got a i have a system down to package for shipping. That'd be like mailing a kid somewhere. Yeah. It is stressful. Very stressful.

Yeah, imagine. Yeah. I got in a big fight with Clay, our buddy Clay, one time because we were looking at a painting and we were arguing about whether it was the morning or night. So much so that we eventually had to go to the artist. And he said it was night which he like kind of messed up because it was actually the morning you wouldn't you guys wouldn't let the artist told you it was the night and you said he was wrong you're like yeah i think about that a lot too like if i have the sun coming from one angle and like if there's a storm in the sky I mean most of the time it's coming from

west to east and so if you have the light coming from the right or whatever that would indicate like evening but if you're have the light coming from the other way it should be you should be facing south and I don't know yeah well these guys look to me like they're riding out in the morning

Clay felt like they were riding back home at night and I was like yeah because if you're coming in at night you're not just they didn't look like that they me like they were riding out in the morning. Yeah. Clayfelt looked like they were riding back home at night. And I was like, yeah, because if you're coming in at night, you're not, just they didn't look like that. They looked like they were just getting going. Yeah. So is this morning or evening? Morning.

I was going to say, I was like morning. That's where I'm at. Yeah. This is morning. Don't even try to tell me some bullshit about this at nighttime. Yeah. So it's not evening. The background of that is the Centennial Valley valley that's the red rocks refuge but they only had a die cut for one way so they had to flip the background on the carrier

so it's actually backwards can you explain that to me again so the carrier which is what the dollar bill sheet that the stamp comes on the artist can design that this and so the background oh you have to design this yes yeah so that was going to be my question so you win and then you have to did you have to paint that after a whole nother damn duck it's optional but i mean i'm not going to pass up the opportunity so it's if you flip it that's the background that overlooks the refuge down at red rocks and they only had a die cut where they could put the stamp on the right side. And so being that I put the bird on the, they had to flip it.

Man, you know what? Now I feel bad because when I buy these, I always just peel that sticker off and throw that out. I never knew I was throwing out, I never even looked to see that I was throwing out art. Yeah. I'll sign it for you now. Now you'll hang on to it.

Can you sign that right now for me? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And another element of the duck stamp, tell me about the remark on the back. So another part of the competition is the sketch on the back, right? And that's a different winner. Yeah. And that's Kira, who is popular on TikTok.

And she started her duck stamp journey a few years back. And so they always pick like a you know different artists every year to do the they highlight you know like maybe up-and-coming artists or whatever so yeah she did that do you know any of the stats on on dark stamps like how many how many you know i know that they sell about a million right yeah a million and a half and they're what are they charging this year 20 25 25 for it's been 25 for for... It's been $25 for, I want to say, almost 10 years now, hasn't it? Oh, so that long ago they raised it? It's been a while.

I remember everybody had a fit when they raised it. Yeah. But then it wound up being that adjusted for inflation, it was still less expensive than when it was launched. And they just surpassed a billion dollars raised in the program's history. Whoa. So, it's pretty cool. And then like 90% of that goes to wetlands, right? I think 98% of every dollar.

That's why you buy so many, Max. Got to give it back somehow. Sure, man. Yeah, can you sign the front? Yeah, I will. Don't sign the front because then it'll look like you're the one hunting. Yeah, I can deal with that. Hey, folks.

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on products and services hand-picked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of your membership, you'll gain access to exclusive pricing on products and services handpicked by the OnX Hunt team. Some of our favorites are First Light, Schnee's, Vortex Federal, and more. As a special offer, you can get a free three months to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. Tell me about the life of an artist, man. You don't just do this, right? Yeah, I just paint.

No, I mean you don't just live to like paint your one duck a year no there's more to it no i i mean it's uh as an artist for me well like what art means to me is like storytelling i think of it like conservation storytelling so without the story there's not a painting for me like it i have a hard time getting excited about the painting work. Like to me, that's the work part of it. Yep. Um, just being outside and experiences while doing all the things we love.

That's what gets me fired up. And so, um, now I've started to journal and that helps me, you know, like articulate the stories that I want to convey. And I guess that's like how each piece is born. And so I usually start with like an idea for a story. Then I'll try to like hunt for the

reference that I need piece to like, how am I going to piece this together? And then that's how like each painting starts to develop. So, um, like I struggle with custom work and that's why I don't do that anymore because it's's i mean it's it's a labor you know and the only way that i can push myself through it is to really be excited about it and so it has to have like a lot of personal meaning to me so with custom work it just doesn't hit you like you just don't know where to where it's coming from sometimes yeah i think there's like from my perspective there's like two types of artists there's the artist that really gets excited about the artwork itself and then all the the you know the way paint manipulates with different types of service uh surfaces and mediums and whether it's different drawing materials and

you know and they just love that work and so you ask them to do a custom painting and like you're gonna pay me to do what i love so much And then there's the artist that I feel like has a true passion outside of the work of, of painting itself. And it's a lot harder for them to do something that doesn't like come from, you know, what's like natural to them or what they've experienced or whatever. And so I feel like I'm more of the latter. That's an interesting distinction. Yeah. how do you decide on what pose and did you at one point were you painting that from the very beginning is there more than one do you do you uh you wad it up and throw it in the trash and start over or how did you decide on that what's the process of doing that so it's changed a lot over time i mean when i started out it was uh very simple and just like oh i think this would be great and then i paint it uh i don't feel like i understood composition as much

early on this was the first stamp that i really took my time studying what makes our eyes attracted to certain things visually and so i you know started studying like the fibonacci sequence and that golden ratio tell me what that is the old fibonacci yeah so fibonacci he was a mathematician uh i don't know like 1400s or 16 i mean mean, this is way back when. And they started to figure out that there was a sequence of numbers like zero and one equal two. And then two and one are three. And then three and two are five. And five and three are eight.

And they started to realize that this was their way of trying to figure out math. And it was, I think, based off of Romans, maybe Roman numerals or something. And they started to figure out that nature exhibited this very sequence of numbers. And so, for instance, if you look down a branch of a tree, you'll see that each leaf follows as it projects out of the branch. It follows that spiral. Yep. And it's the exact same pattern or like a galaxy in the sky, the way it swirls. Like a snail shell is one of those. Snail seam.

Yep. Yep. And so they started to figure out that this was something that nature exhibited everywhere. Okay. And then artists caught on to that, like that like well we should start composing our paintings that way and that's when you think of like the old masters and like why were that era there was an era where artwork exploded and it was just you know amazing compared to what was previously done and they started to incorporate this mathematical sequence into their paintings

and like how to position based on you know this is the edges of the painting we want to put it a certain uh distance across from one direction from the other and that you know aligned with that sequence of numbers and so that's how they started to figure out like and that's what we consider like compositional rules today and like art academia and things so i started to study that and started to figure out like how to position the head of the bird where to put it um different things like that and are you classically trained did you go to art school no this is all research you've done yourself right so yeah and like that have you heard of that before the fibonacci yeah it's art you know a

lot of composing a painting is math and the role of thirds for photography. Like it's all just anything visual does take a lot of, you know, compositional math. And I don't know if they teach that in art. I didn't go to art school either. I mean, I think it's pretty common knowledge. A lot of people know about this. It's harder to implement than it is to understand it. And I mean, because then you're there's just so many things when you're trying to paint

a picture that come up that make it difficult. But yeah, like I really started to think about things like that. So like back to your question, this year I had like a very strict system of like, okay, I'm going to think about the rule of thirds. I'm going to think about where the horizon should be. I'm going to do a large duck to keep it big so that I wasn't giving a judge a reason to vote it out. Because sometimes you make a pair of birds and they become too small. And then judges might think, well, when you shrink it down, it might not fit on a stamp well. So there's different things like that.

So I'm like, I'm going to keep it one bird and I'm going to really study all of these, what art professionals consider like the rules of composition and I'm going to try my best to implement them all, which is funny that this was the year that I won.

And it paid off. Yeah. Not only that, but I mean, I never came close, you know, so. Really? I have one more like nerdy art question

and then I'll leave that. You can ask all kinds of nerdy art questions. How close in your reference material is the color theory? Were you going off of the time of day and color or did you tweak the colors at all? Because I just love the color. I kind of make up the background colors a lot. That's just something that I really like to do. But that was also, you know, if I'm painting a detailed picture like the background of the carrier, I might try and use photos to follow what's true to life, you know, more accurately.

But then on the stamp, I'm like, I'm'm gonna make him look like he's in a portrait studio yeah and so I just kind of like pulled some colors out and was like I think this would complement you know the the the reddish brown of the head make it somewhat blue but you want to keep it warm so I used like purples and pinks and I thought that would like be a good contrast against like the brown of the bird so um yeah it was mostly made up the background itself and then you did a good job because the color really stands out to me yeah thank you gorgeous it does and it's not you know iridescent green like a mallard's head or something so it seems like it would be a challenge in itself doing like a you know you got a white and then gray and then brown of that pintail yep personally i think the pintail is one of the prettiest ducks.

Yeah, same. I mean, just with that chocolate head too. Right. Well, and then what's. Well, their duck has that. So what's funny, you know, and that's, obviously that's like a lot of people's favorite bird. But what, when I started studying like these compositional rules,

that golden spiral that we talked about, it actually fits perfectly on a pintail's head, the way that the white swirls up into the head. then i started wondering i'm like maybe that like is that part of the reason why so many people are attracted to this species of bird is because it's just like it's like the perfect example of nature at its finest you know for me as a hunter it was always like the um golden goose egg that like, yeah, like pintails take a long time to fully plume out during the fall. And it's like all these Southern States, um, in the Western States get these full plume

plumed pintails all the time. Beautiful ones, yeah. Growing up in North Dakota, uh, I was just shooting brown ducks the whole time. And like, it was like a prized item, um, shooting one in December, if being fully poomed out and we would only get like a couple, maybe a couple of year. Right. So it's just like a cherry on top. Yeah.

Like it was always the, it's a rarity. Yeah. Yeah. It's always so cool. I think that you're maybe because it's like the dark stamp, but I feel like it's more, um, it's more kind of conservative than your normal paintings. It is. Yeah.

And they make you tone it way down, uh, not make you right. You, I mean, you can't have like, you can't, it can't be like loud and surprising.

Yeah. I mean, you can take the chance, but that's, yeah. It's like a lot of times when you try that that's the quickest way to get voted out so it's i don't know but maybe some you just never know who the people are going to be and that's these people that have you know been entering it since

the 80s will just tell you it doesn't matter how good it is because you get one person that is like well i hate pintails my favorite duck is the spoonbill yeah that's mad's mad. Because they could just, they could throw you out for this arbitrary. I mean, yeah, they could give you a one out of five just cut. I mean, so it's up to the individuals. Is that kind of a reason why they don't tell you who is the judges? Right. So you don't paint towards their favorites in a way? Yeah, precisely.

How did you find out that you won? So they stream it live. Oh my gosh. So everybody, yeah, yeah everybody listening yeah yeah and so my wife was actually gone on vacation so i was home alone and i'm just like sitting in my bedroom she's like do you want to come on vacation you're like no yeah yeah and uh and so i'm just watching and and you know i i made it to the second round before but then in the second round i tied for first with one person who you know you can kind of tell whose painting is who, once you really start following these artists, like you can see their style in the painting.

And so I knew who the artist was and I tied going into the third round. And then they're like, all right, no, we're going to break for lunch and we'll see you in an hour. And I just like, I mean, I was pacing, like my heart rate started going. I'm just like, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during this watching you. Oh goodness. Yeah. And then,

uh, I want, there was a two judges. I think just one judge that changed their mind in the final round and they switched his entry from like a five to a four. And that's how I won with that poor guy. Changed their mind. Yeah.

Well, cause like, you know, the, from the, the second round score that they gave in the final round, they decided to take a point away. So it's,

and that's when you knew that you won. Well, then that was probably, there's 20 entries to judge after that. So I had gotten the score and then his was like basically right after. And I was like, okay, I'm in first now. And then there was still some entries that were one point off or something like that in the second round. So then you have to sit there and wait and it comes out like the last one.

And you're just watching online. Yeah. You can't go there. You can. I couldn't make it work last year. I really wanted to, but yeah. So yeah, it was just a live feed on YouTube. And then what was your celebration like?

Yeah. Were you like, what the heck? Just a panic attack by myself. Just jumping off. Basically. Yeah. Like, yeah. Did you break anything?

I might have. Yeah. How many people were watching the live? There's always, I want to say five or 600, maybe. Maybe that's a little bit high. I don't know. Did you call your wife? Yeah.

Well, they all, I mean, everybody was watching wherever they were. So like, yeah. Then my phone starts just going crazy and I'm like, I got to, let's get the call from them first and then I'll talk to friends and family. Yeah. Wow. That's so exciting. Yeah. So they called you I got called you yeah yeah what do they say congratulations yeah they assume you already knew yeah typically I guess I think the art most

artists watch it now that's kind of like a standard now but yeah that's pretty crazy like couldn't believe it at first so how how much does um how much does life change for someone that gets that level of recognition like it's got to cause a lot of people to come you know a lot of people to start paying attention to your wildlife art for a while right you know and i yes and you know the biggest thing is just like the ability to network has been amazing and like meeting people in ducks unlimited and all these organizations and, you know, creating new friends and connections. And that's been awesome. And they, you know, they kind of have a tour for you. So you go to

the Easton waterfall festival in Maryland. Um, then I got an opportunity to go to the, like the big national Delta event down in Louisiana. And so just meeting people and networking, that's been huge. But I mean, honestly, it went in September and then the first day of sale is not until June 28th. So it's basically just a big lull. And then even in, I think it was like end of July, I went all around town at any place that I could post office sportsman's nobody, nobody even had

them yet. So, I mean, I think people are just starting to purchase them now and I am no, I mean, there is definitely a lot more, uh, people kind of finding me online and flowing my way. So it's, I, I think it's probably at the beginning of that just because it's, you know, hunting season's still, I guess, coming up for a lot of people. So. It's funny. Cause it's a piece of artwork that so many people will buy, and they'll buy it, and they're like, oh, shit, I got to run and get my duck stamp. And they'll sign it and put it in their wallet. And probably many will probably not look at it.

Do you know what I mean? They look at it like a license. Do you know what I'm saying? They look at it like a license and not art. And now this is the first year that they have the e-stamp. Have you heard about it? So Congress passed, I think, in May. No.

So it's an e-stamp. But they want it, you know, and I think the duck stamp office probably advocated for this too. They still wanted to have the physical as part of that aspect. So you buy the e-stamp and then you get your physical in the mail in March. Oh, okay. And that's so that you don't have an e-stamp on your phone and then you get the physical and you can give it away to your buddy or whatever. I see.

So they send it after the season. Yeah, they will. I didn't know that that became a thing. Yeah, Arkansas does that with the state stamp. Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't mean what states aren't e-stamps now. Is that right? And I got to say that, like, general consensus,

especially going to the Delta Expo, I mean, there's tens of thousands of people there. It was very obvious that everybody wanted this. So many hunters are like, thank God we finally can just buy one on the phone now. And, like, there's such a pain to, like. Sure. So it's definitely what the

majority of hunters i think if you decide you're going duck hunting at nine o'clock at night right the next day and there's nowhere nowhere to get a duck stamp i think that was the main reason yeah i'm gonna tell you i'm gonna tell you a duck stamp story um remember earlier max we're talking about those rivers in alaska okay sitting at a launch one time coming back from duck hunting in alaska and we're just loading the boat up and there's like a guy hanging around being like oh gee shucks i've never seen a duck right and all of a sudden we're like shooting the ship and all of a sudden he pulls his badge off he's a trooper an alaska trooper but it's his strategy was just to act like a gawking tourist you know thinking that you're gonna be like you think that's cool look at all this right yeah look at all this crazy

shit i got that i'm not supposed to have anyways that year almost got in trouble but wound up not getting in trouble because that year like the duck season there opens early. And the state stamp, something wound up happening. The state stamp was not available. Was not available. Like Fish and Game, no one had the state stamp. And we looked and looked and looked, and they're like, the state stamp, something happened. The state stamp's not available. So we went duck hunting. And he's like, one had the state stamp and we looked and looked and looked and they're like the state stamps something happened the state stands not available so we went duck hunting and he's like where's your state stamp like funny you ask it's not available we were told it's not

available so we don't we're not getting in trouble he said like go get it when it's available interesting no were you sweating a little bit? Yeah, sweating a lot. Sweating a lot. I felt that there would have been a big memo out to all the enforcement people saying that we opened the season with no availability of the thing. You couldn't get it.

I was sweating it bad. That seemed like a bad thing to get in trouble for. And it caused me to question, were you really supposed to stay home? It felt weird and not go duck it's like the season but you can't go because of so we just kind of felt like well when it's available we'll buy it that's a tough one that's a duck stamp story that's the only duck stamp story i got for you i've got a couple of like not signing my stamp and then getting checked. And usually they're pretty good about like, oh, just sign it.

What we're talking about is when you buy a duck stamp, for you people out there that don't buy duck stamps because you don't hunt ducks. One, if you hunt ducks, you have to buy the damn stamp. You should buy it anyway. But the reason they sign it is they don't want you to be able to just lend your body your stamp. So they want it

like signed across the face, and that becomes your stamp, and you can't like swap stamps because there's nothing on it that has your, you know, it's not like made out to your name. There's no serial number assigned to you. So you graffiti the artwork. You defame the artwork. No, it's kind of sad.

With your own. That's why you got to buy two. Yeah. Keep one for the. You know, I keep all of of mine and I always thought about that because I'm going to pass them down to my son or my grandchildren. And I thought about, I should buy two. And then I thought, no, if it was me, I would want one with my grandfather's signature on

there. So that's. I talked to a guy that had every stamp that his grandpa, he started hunting when the first year of the stamp came out or he didn't start, he had from 1935 or whatever he had every stamp and then he gave up hunting he was telling me the story at the expo and then he convinced his grandpa to go out one more time and you know he of course had saved them all and so he grandpa was like 1992 he bought one more stamp went out and then he got a picture of his bag limit of teal or something with his grandpa with a bird dog standing on the hill. And then he's got it framed with him in the center and then all the stamps all the way around.

People do such the coolest thing. Yeah. How avid of a duck hunter are you? When I was a kid, I was, but archery has won me over year by year. So, but I mean, I love to go. It's to me, it's like, that's quality time with friends and that's why I love to go, you know, and get the chance.

But yeah. So you're not, you're not like a super dedicated waterfowl hunter. Not so much. I mean, anymore, I'm thinking about how to fill the freezer the quickest way possible. And like, so that's, I mean, that's always my first priority which

usually ends up taking the entire fall yeah because you mean so you can have more time to get back to your painting right yeah and then are you able to is that are you at a point where you just are an artist and you're an artist you don't do any kind of other work no uh i came here in 2015 and just decided to go for it. And it's been a rough road. But I mean, thankfully, the Internet has kind of helped out over the years. And that's kind of been like the avenue to get it going. Your YouTube page is unbelievable. Oh, thank you.

With, I mean, thousands and thousands of followers. Yeah. But not to mention just hundreds of videos of just like the process of the painting. And you actually did a cool painting behind the scenes of this stamp right right yeah like kind of like the the background story yeah yep yep yeah and i mean i i started the youtube because i had no money i like ran out first year i was here i saved up what did you do before sorry i was a i went to school for wildlife biology okay so i was a wildlife tech for majority of my 20s in seven years i saved up like 5 500 doing that which so they don't pay a lot but i was like all right

this is maybe like a year's worth to live off of and i went for it and then of course i just flat out ran out of money and then the youtube was kind of like out of desperation like well maybe i needed to like kind of do what bob ross did and maybe that would help and so i literally started the youtube as like maybe this could help me financially and then that you know seeing response of other artists and then other people thought it was interesting and it just kind of like progressed from there and then that's been like a definitely a stability of the you know making it as an artist that's been definitely a stability of making it as an artist. That's helped a lot. If you took that hat off with your hair, just go like Bob Ross.

Like Bob Ross. There we go. That's what I'm waiting to see. No, not quite. How would you describe your style and your work outside of the duck stamp paintings? Like I said earlier, I think of it as conservation storytelling. So you're doing... I mean, I never dreamed of being an artist growing up.

It was always like I wanted to do wildlife conservation. And so anything that kept me outside around wildlife, just helping, that was what I was passionate about and still am and then through that obviously i was entering the duck stamp and art was always an interest on the side and it had started growing i started noticing that people took interest in it and they really started to engage with like the stories i was trying to convey you you know, and I think back of like Terry Redlin was a huge inspiration when I was a kid growing up in Minnesota. And so like, I think I started out trying to figure out how to tell stories like that. Like how did he, how was he so good at telling stories and how could I do that in my own way? And once I started seeing people react

to it and engage with it, and I started thinking like, maybe this is a way to, to further what, what I'd like to contribute to conservation by just getting people's attention. Like maybe sometimes you don't have to have a greater purpose other than just engaging people and starting a conversation. So I thought, well, maybe I could tell stories around things that I really care about and that that would bring interest towards those subjects. And so that's where that's how I started to think about my artwork. And then that, you know, a few years later, I won the Colorado and the California Duck Stamp.

And then that's when I was like, OK, I got to give this a try. Nice. Your pieces do have a really cool like narrative that includes all the elements, like the landscape, maybe even a little human element, like a barn in some of them, or obviously the wildlife. I love that narrative aspect of your work. can put on the screen for the video audio. That's amazing. That's a close-up of one, and then the next one, which is the canoe. What kind of birds are in there? Max is on it. It's like the sky's opened up. I'm not going to

say what this painting is for just yet, but those are two close-ups of the painting. It's a guy throwing decoys out that looks like a terry renlin yeah yeah it's i mean canoe on the water i definitely was heavily inspired as a kid and now now i'm trying to figure out like how to how to find my own path and yeah because i think you know he cared a lot about family, community values, religion. It was clear.

And being in the outdoors. And so he obviously accomplished a lot with that. People still talk about it. I mean, he's got his own museum now. Oh, yeah. Have you been there yet? I want to, but yeah. It's very, very cool.

Yeah, I've heard. There's a mostly half half done painting of some big bolsheviks man yeah i think the next one shows the full of what i'm working on so that's on the easel currently unreal one that's what you're working away on right now yep and you do so you do like an underpainting yeah yeah and so you know like the underpainting is a lot that's like the most common question is why orange and why brown and like well if you were to paint let's say like a window and you held it up to a light you'd obviously see the light coming through it yeah so you're not just seeing the paint you're seeing what's bouncing off underneath and the light that's coming back

through it so if it's a cold color or if it's white, it's going to change how you perceive the color. What he's talking about is, Chuck's talking about the un, how do you describe it? The underpainting. Yeah, there's a painting that's half done. And then, but instead of having like a white, instead of painting on a white canvas, you go through and make it orange. Yeah, and it depends what you're trying to accomplish. I really prefer the warmth of that, but I mean, if that's a cool nighttime scene, some artists will want to do a cooler color, blues or greens.

So there's painting before the painting. You paint the canvas orange. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I've gone wrong all these years. Started on white. Next one, Max. Yeah.

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to try OnX out if you visit onxmaps.com slash meet. onxmaps.com slash meet. Welcome to the OnX Club, y'all. How old were you when you made your first

painting? My mom has a finger painting framed from when I was like 18 months or something like that so she says i started early okay when did you when did you start for real it progressed i don't know if i could i started painting uh i mean i progressed through drawing my whole childhood and then the colored pencils and then i dove into painting when i really got interested in the duck stamp because i kind of. Oh, no kidding. You know, because you know, it's like, well, nothing but color has ever really won post 1950 or something.

So I knew I had to figure out how to paint and how to do color if I wanted to compete. So that I think it was 20, 20 years old, 21. And I decided to pick up paints. Really? Is this oil or acrylic it's oils oil can you pick pan that picture over behind you that's a work of art so how many different types of ways can you paint like kelsey said oil acrylic there's watercolor watercolor gouache um those are kind of the main ones. Okay.

Yeah. There's not too many people I don't think. As artists, can you guys critique this? This is a picture by Clay Newcomb. It's a future man. Is that daytime or nighttime, Steve? Midday. That's midday.

It's a future man with a machine gun. Like some kind of future space man with a machine gun. Like some kind of future space alien with a machine gun. He's getting charged by a wild hog. That sums up my childhood artwork. You used to do this style. Oh yeah. The nuke style.

So if you didn't know anything about this artist, would you see a demonstration of raw talent or do you just see juvenilia? You know, artist, would you see a demonstration of raw talent, or do you just see juvenilia? You know, I think it's like a combination of an unhealthy obsession and persistence that take it from there. I see rabies in that picture.

Oh, goodness. I'm giving that an O. That's out. Yeah, that's out. I think I got an O. When I was little, you know how little kids always have what they draw? I would draw amphibious

salts and I would draw large plains Indian encampments so I'd do like a landscape and then I'd just fill it with teepees lots of teepees

you walk into any art gallery around bozeman you'll find one of those and a signature like a signature of my amphibious and salts would be um i like to specialize in shattering glass these amphibious vehicles i did had a window that was susceptible to an outward shatter for whatever reason and that would denote like a certain amount of yeah peril and gunplay happening during these amphibious assaults but then i gave up on that never did any more art done yeah i don't know what was your thing when you were a kid it it would i mean honestly it was therapy for me because i hated being in the classroom i mean i grew up in a with parents that had me outdoors from the very start. My parents were competitive archers, and so they had a bow and arrow in my hand since I was two.

You were supposed to do that. Yeah, and then going on canoe trips to the Canadian wilderness, Quetico, since I was six. And, I mean, that's just what I was infatuated with. And then when I got to like kindergarten elementary I hated everything about it and I struggled in school like socially I did not have a great time making friends and so to get through my days I would just fill my notebooks with sketches and that's I feel like where it started and just like combat sketches or you do wildlife everything yeah and then and then like teacher caricatures I started to focus more on wildlife

when i got to like middle school high school and i would start to hand them out to my friends so like all the lockers of friends i had would have like my drawings in there and then i became known as like the kid that did caricatures of the teachers in the back. At what age were you known among your buddies as like a good artist? I don't think until probably college that I really started to progress with it. Because I mean, it was just something I did just to get through my days prior to that.

And then I'll never forget the senior year in high school, you know, you have like an art class that you can take and they had given the students the opportunity to just do whatever you want to do for your final project and i did like some duck hunters and a blind or something like that oh yeah and the teacher was like you could sell that when i was presenting it and i remember all the kids were like eyebrows high like giving me a nod and i'm like really like a little bit of confidence in yourself yeah so i opened an ebay account that next month and

so then we're out of school for the summer and i put a grizzly bear drawing on ebay and it sold for 80 bucks and that was the first time i made money off my art and it was actually you're kidding me it was actually my mom's boss that bought it but i mean i love it that was like i mean game changer for me because then i realized, maybe I could do something with this. At the time, it was like, I'm going to do it on the side. That was my spending money in college. And I told my dad, I think, first year after college, I was like, can I just try this over the summer? And he's like, in the first month, if you can make as much as I think you could make, like doing landscaping you did the year prior like I'll let

you do it you know and you can live at home or whatever and so I did I mean that's when I started heavy on pet portraits and I got enough pet portraits how I started to I made you know I made enough and yeah and then that became kind of like the thing I did on the side ever since so so you uh when you were little like looking back on it you had an artist mentality you were like an artist without knowing you were an artist sure yeah like i was always attracted to it whether i i knew it or not and it was never like super intentional but it was just it was a form of expression if i was a board yeah i just had to do something with my hands yeah yeah uh now do you sell in galleries or mostly online if people want to go look at your paintings i mean you got an awesome website

yeah thank you i mean it's all online right now um and that has just been the result of you know when i moved here i thought maybe this is a great place to get involved in the art community it seems like it's you know like a thriving art scene. And of course I had, my resume was, I was a wildlife tech and I love to paint and that didn't fly with anybody. So I could not break into the scene, but then that pushed me to, to really go ahead. You couldn't break into the art scene? Yeah. Like galleries or anything like that. Because of not going to art school? Or what was the reason? I mean, I think they do value a resume a lot for liking galleries.

Because, I mean, that's how they sell to people that don't know who the artists are in a gallery. I mean, they use that. It's not just a meritocracy? No, it's... It's near impossible for a budding artist to just walk into a gallery and get picked up it happens but they're looking for people that have had success at a show or like a lot of galleries will pick up an artist that is has a career rolling something that's gonna bring some notoriety to the gallery right okay right i remember when i was starting out writing i remember there was a writer that said to me

i don't remember what happened like something i did or nothing he goes well now you have like the stamp on your forehead yeah i'm like what do you mean he goes you're like you're now like now everyone will take you seriously when you go to sell your work you need to prove yourself a little bit yeah he's like but you can't it doesn't matter what you write you have to get up and get the stamp yeah and then you're fine. That's pretty much it. But the stamps got to be there or else no one will even know your stuff could be great,

but no one will know it because they don't see the stamp. Yeah. This is literally a big ass stamp. But I mean that, that led me to, to push online, you know, and that,

that, that was 2015. And so the Instagram Instagram I was telling Kelsey that was like the first year that it really started taking off and so I started getting traction on basically I'd post anywhere I could on social media when TikTok was musically I I saw some business guru online said you need a musically that's the future and so i i opened up a musically account which was all just like 12 and 13 year old kids singing and dancing no idea what to do with it and i like posted a couple like reveal videos of like hey this is my

newest painting and put like some pop song onto it and i mean it just took off and then they changed to tiktok and then tiktok became like the biggest way to gain new clients for me in like previous, like recent years. So when they keep talking about banning TikTok, you're sweating that off. I mean, I've diversified enough where I'm, you know, and I know how to do it now. Like if it's not that and it's the next thing I'll get on it. Those Chinese spying on your duck painting. Does this one have a name? Graceful Anticipation.

What's he anticipating? Max? Max jump shooting him? Ruby. Well, so the story, like Max said, the video I posted of us going out. And back then I was just, I love fiddling around with cameras. And so I was just gathering videos. And of course I love to video the birds and stuff too.

So when we had found this Drake on this small pothole walking out every morning, we set up on it on the last morning and it was very evident after sitting there that morning that he would just be there right away at first light. And he would sit there and whistle away at first light and he would sit there and whistle shake the water until the hen showed up and then the hen would show up they'd go in the grass and do their thing and then they'd be gone for the day and you'd never see him again so he's waiting for the hen to arrive on the stamp and then the carrier design is the moment that the hen is arriving so the carrier painting is called Full Circle.

Yeah, so graceful anticipation, and then the carrier painting is titled The Arrival. Wow, love it. That's creative. Well done. You know, Kelsey has a gallery. Yeah, I know. Studio gallery.

Yeah, I have yet to walk in, but I want you to come on over. She might reject you, but maybe now. Maybe now. Now he's got the maybe now now he's got the stamp no he's got the stamp she'd be like maybe i am but maybe i do have some space i mean it's a tough balance because now i've established myself among many of of clients and collectors that i know personally and i get the prices that I want. But then most galleries, if you do get in, they want 50%. So then now how do you juggle that? I mean, do you double your prices? Because that doesn't seem very moral.

It's tough. So yeah. Do you have competitive terms at your gallery? I actually- I'm trying to broker a relationship. Is this unwelcome? I moved the gallery away from a collaborative space to all my own stuff now. You did?

Yeah, it's back to just me. So studio gallery is just you now? This is me. Yeah, that's how it started. Is that just because you needed more space? No, it's just I found that I brought in a caliber of artists that deserved a different space. I'm in three forks. There's not exactly a huge art market.

When people come to my studio and my gallery, they're there to see my work. And I was watching these amazing works get a little overlooked. Oh, I see. You know, we had some great success there with the other artists, but they just, and many of them have gone on to get in like big galleries.

So it just wasn't like so good for them, I think. But it was a great experience. I really enjoyed it. So studio or gallery is you can go, you'll be there working. Yeah. And people can come see your work there. Yep. I'm open, you know, five days a week and I'm in there painting.

You walk in, you see what I'm working on and then you can walk through and see the rest of my works. It's pretty fun. Yeah. That's what I need. I'm in there painting. You walk in, you see what I'm working on, and then you can walk through and see the rest of my works. It's pretty fun. That's what I need. I'm in a spare bedroom still. Well, man, I appreciate you coming on the show, dude. Yeah, thank you. You know what? We were, right when it came out in the news,

like, I don't know what the hell, when would it have come out in the news? Late September last year. So right away, Corinne and I were like, man, we should get the guy, the Montana guy out in the news late september last year so right away yeah crain and i were like man we should get the guy the montana guy that won the duck stamp but then we're like krill's like we should wait till people start buying their ducks yeah you know so we actually talked about doing this back then but then crin was pointed out rightfully that no one can go get it if you do it later it'll be this like in your wallet and you can pull it out of

your wallet and be like oh yeah yeah that is a person a person painted that great timing yeah like an artist who's trying to make it as an artist painted that i'm gonna go get mine right after this you're fired up now yeah can i just give a shout out to the junior stamp contest because i know corinne mentioned it earlier that's been a huge passion of mine because I'm sure a lot of your thought is how to bridge the gap and I think you've probably done a very good job at that between people that don't understand conservation and hunting and people that do and how to you know how to connect with both audiences and the the junior stamp i got involved uh 12 years ago or so at the prairie wetlands learning center fergus falls minnesota and that's a it's a a u.s fish and wildlife service

facility that's incorporated into the local k-12 district okay and so the heck the kids spent half of their school year on a wma and they basically, everything that they learn is centered around the outdoors and conservation and kind of like intertwined. And so they have the kids, one of the big projects is they have all their students enter the junior duck stamp and then they write a paper on the bird species they chose. And so that I worked there one season at the wetland management district. And so they asked me like, Hey, would, you know, they knew that I was always entering the duck stamp. Would you speak to the kids and get involved? And so I did like a presentation and that now has become a tradition that I do every

year. Oh, cool. And it's been really, it, you know, I, now I realize the impact that this program has. I mean, a lot of these kids, just like Emily, have no background. They're just, that's just what, you know, they're just there for K through 12 education. But after I come and present, they do their painting. I mean, they send me a stack of note cards at the end of the year of just thank you notes. And then they draw me, each student draws me, like you notes and then they draw me each student draws me like a

Hundred and some students draw me their own duck and mail them to me Oh really this whole packet every year the teacher said that a couple of them chose their final project to just write it on Myself which I'm like cool. It's but like I'm just there one day and I'm showing them artwork and talking to them about the duck stamp and they just become addicted to it. And like, so this is a government sponsored program that very few people participate in. And like, you know, when you think about how many classrooms and students are out there that is designed to do just that bridge the gap and teach young individuals about conservation. That means kids love to me, two things are like true passion as a kid, you love artwork and you love stories and you know, kids love to doodle, play with materials. And then they, I mean,

it's whether you're watching a movie or cartoons, like it's the, you know, kids love stories and the story of the duck stamp, the history of the program is a really fantastic story. And so they, you know, that is taught in their experience of participating in the junior stamp program. And I mean, I would just, I think we need to encourage a lot more parents coming, whether you're a teacher like Emily's teacher, getting your kids, your students involved, or whether you're just a parent and want to get your kids involved. Anybody can do it. You can get the packet online and get started and submit a painting. We should have put that in the kids' activity book, man.

Catch a crayfish, count stars. Should have had a thing like submit your duck stamp book two we can encourage that start kicking that one uh teacher's ass a little bit sending some kids over there to compete all right so uh you can't you can't do one for three years you gotta sit out yeah 2027 do you know what the ducks are for 2027 i think they release it this coming year okay yeah it's when you'll start scheming yeah yeah yep are you gonna spend three years working on it no do you limit how long so the next time you can submit are you gonna limit yourself to how much time you can spend on it i had already started doing that just because i mean like i said earlier just the practicality of it I mean it's the end of the

day it's just a a contest and a gamble you know you just put in and cross your fingers so yeah I mean I I want to say I spent three weeks of like total commitment on this year's I mean but I mean that's night and day I mean seven days a. How many hours, how many hours you have into that painting? If you had to take a stab. Uh, the painting itself was probably 12 days, but I mean, that's wearing sweats and looking like crap around the clock. So I don't know,

12 times, 10, 12 hours a day. And then there, you know, the planning and actually going out and getting reference. I mean, it all adds up

to a huge commitment. Yeah. Well, it paid off, man. It did. Congratulations. I can't wait to see your next one. Well deserved. I like any kind of story

about American elbow grease, man. Yep. And this is all about making a plan, like having a dream, working on it, struggles. Yeah. Overcoming all that shit. Right.

And it feels like maybe there's a chance now. There's a chance, man. There's a chance. I can tell you're devoted. Thank you. Thanks for coming on the show, Chuck Black. And Kelsey, thanks for coming on the show. Go pay Kelsey a visit at Studio Gallery, Three Forks, Montana.

Actually, I have some stuff in the meat eater store now, too. Oh, you do? Yeah. Man, I've been writing so much about Three Forks because we're working on the next Meat Eaters American History, which is the story of the Mountain Men. Lots going on there. Dude, you can't get a paragraph without having to talk about Three Forks. There's a ton.

Lot went on there. Yeah. God, the amount of dudes that just bit the dust around Three Forks. There's a ton. Lot went on there. Yeah. God, the amount of dudes that just bit the dust around three forks. Yeah. We went on, Seth and I went on a little walk the other day and we came across a little plaque about Coulter's run. And there's just like pretty much everywhere you look, there's little things like that. Oh, listen, he, a lot of dudes bit the dust around three forks and not always in a pretty way.

No. But when you're reading about Coulter, what is often omitted is what happened to the guy he was with. He got killed, right? Well, not just killed, chopped up. Really? And then Coulter was smeared in his innards. Oh, God. Sounds like another podcast.

Yeah. Well, it is. It's Meteor's American History of the Mountain Man. Book. Nice. Yeah. You'll get the full. Yeah.

Brutal. The full on the bridge. And then there's a. So check this out. This is a little prelude to. So Meteor's American History of the Mountain Man I'm working on now. But there's this dude. So this one group of trappers is going up river.

This group of mountain men is going up river this group mountain is going up river and one of the guys but get second thoughts and bails and they take this this the head of this group of trappers takes another trapper who was actually lewis john coulter was a lewis and clark alumni john potts who coulter's innards got smeared on was a lewis and clark alumni and there's this guy i don't know how to pronounce his name, like Drouillard or Drouillard. Yeah, that's another one. He was a Lewis and Clark alumni.

So this one trapper splits and the head of the expedition says, hey, go find him and bring him to me dead or alive. Go trap him. He goes, catches up to him, shoots him in the back between the shoulder blades, hauls him back to camp. They say, you shouldn't have tried

to do that. They stick him in a canoe and float him downriver. He washes up dead downriver on the beach. Then his killer winds up dead, chopped up, head setting on his horse

in three forks. I'll remember that one. I'm just working on my garden a whole big part of the story of the mountain men is them getting over like that era them getting over the idea of the three forks and moving south because lewis and clark when they came through they saw so much you know they spent a lot of time there right and they're like there's a shitload of beavers yeah there and so it was like this they were very focused on when we got to get to that area because they talked about how much how many beavers are in the area and they kept going there and and the black feet for a long time were like they want nothing to do with this they didn't want

to enter the fur trade with the Americans. They didn't want Americans in their area. Yeah. And they're like, just very forcefully saying, do not come into our area. Yeah. You know, they said it politely. They said it not so politely. And eventually they like these trappers trying to come out or kind of like eventually they got legit gave up

oh and moved south and that kind of launched sort of like this heyday of the mountain men but they were always drawn like a moth to flames to the three forks dude and you go there bad shit happens now there's a little art gallery now Now you can go there and pay attention and go and visit the studio gallery. Lots changed in the West. Yeah, I guess. Alright, thanks guys. Appreciate you coming on. Go buy your duck stamp.

Yep. So now we've got a day left. We're going to do everything we can in our power to make this happen, all of us, everybody here on the hunt. I'm excited. Like I say, it feels a little cooler. We've got some cloud cover, which was like the great day we had.

So really excited for tonight. But let's switch gears a little bit and get into loot combs, hunting, and how it kind of ties into some of your music. You're starting to get more and more references in your song lyrics. You mentioned it's becoming a bigger piece of your music um you know you're starting to get more and more references in your song lyrics that you mentioned it's becoming a bigger you know piece of your life you're keeping a and maybe this too personal this can get cut out no um like keeping a diary for your kids like just a hunt journal um so what does hunting mean to you uh when did you start kind of give us a little background on that and just in general yeah i really started um i don't know i guess probably eight years ago

now um and i've just been kind of i've just become obsessed with it you know um really you know obviously my you know my what i do for a living is very uh sensory overload you know what i mean like it's just a lot of one place to the next to this place to that place and in this car and in to this place and doing interviews and doing photo shoots and shoot music videos and in the studio and writing songs and it never ends you know um so I think these trips for me you know hunting started out as a way to kind of it's the complete antithesis of that right like it does ultimately it does culminate with some super climax high-intensity moment if everything goes right but like the lead-up you know it's like everything about it is very I don't know there's a lot of calming elements to like the whole process right like you

know it's like if you're pumped to go hunting to shoot an animal it's like you're i mean yeah that's the end goal but it's like just there would you would leave feeling empty if you showed up and then you shot an animal that was the end and it all ended right like you know spending time outside and and being with you know like-minded people and um i've also learned a tremendous amount of life lessons from being out here. Right. You know, um, I was talking with you earlier when we were in the tent and this was all getting set up and talking about how, you know, the music stuff for me has always come really naturally, you know, and not that, um, it wasn't, you know, really

difficult and that it's not a lot of work and it is all that, but it's never felt like I'd ever felt like I had a lot to overcome in the sense of, and I was going to do that for a living, it seemed like I didn't really hit a lot of setbacks, you know, just the way my story kind of played out. I'm very thankful for that. I'm very lucky. But, you know, we've talked about a little bit on this trip that I'm just on a bit of a cold streak in the woods, man, like the bull dropping. And, you know, I've had some other hunts that just kind of everything, you do everything the right way and then it doesn't work out, you know, the way that it's supposed to.

And I mean, even down to the, you know, the 11th hour, you know, like I've had stuff recently where I'm like, we're already celebrating and then it doesn't go the way that you think that it's going to go. And, um, so I've learned a lot through those experiences, right. That, that not, you know, just because you do everything you can and you, you prepare the best that you possibly can and you do everything you feel like the right way. And you're coming on these, you know, public land hunts and, you know, I could probably afford to go do whatever hunt I wanted to, but I don't want to do that. You know, I want it to be a challenge. I want it to be difficult. I want there to be, you know, I want it to be, you know, I can't say I want to go hike to the top of the Himalayan mountains.

But, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want it to be, I don't want to just sit in front of a, you know, in front of a big pile of apples and they go, well, this is razor blades going to walk out in five minutes. You know what I mean? And you're going to shoot it. It's like I'm just not interested in that. But, yeah, I keep that journal, man, and it helps me kind of, especially through this kind of last year, I guess,

that's been really tough for me, at least big game-wise. It's been tough for me. I've had a great turkey season this year. I'm thankful for that. I love that, you know, turkey woods seems like the only thing that keep me coming back right now. It hasn't been a lot of good outcomes anywhere else. But I keep that journal, really.

You know, me and my friends talk about it a lot that i go hunting with you know dan and reed they have a podcast through mediator and i've been hunting with those guys for years and they're some of my best friends and you know they're they grew up hunting and their dad hunts and and um so they're like man i just i wish i had i wish my dad would have done that you know i wish i could go back and read all my dad's, the days that he was miserable and the days that he got the biggest year of his life. I wish I had all that stuff. And so my wife bought me that book a few years ago for Christmas, I think around 2019.

And just this elk hunt is going to be the last pages of my first journal that will be completely filled up. So I'm excited about starting the next one. And hopefully we can get something done and there'll be something good in the end of that one. We're going to do everything we can. Yeah. Hey, folks, exciting news for those who live or hunt in Canada. You might not be able to join our raffles and sweepstakes and all that because of raffle and sweepstakes law, but hear this.

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