The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 660: MeatEater Radio Live! Coues Deer, "Cowz" Deer, and Two Truths and a Lie

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Hosts Randall Williams, Janis Putelis, and Seth Morris recap their Coues deer trip to Mexico, catch-up with their guide, Phil Cramer, get some Coues insight from Jim Heffelfinger, and play Two Truths and a Lie. Read Jim's article here: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/d9926ed0-65f3-40c1-a06e-bc8e9c9da7f9/24-29%20Feature_Coues%20White-Tailed%20Deer_-e6ecd2e.pdf Join Steve Rinella and the rest of the crew as they go LIVE from MeatEater HQ every Thursday at 11am MT! They’ll have segments, call-in guests, and real-time interaction with the audience. Watch the live stream on the MeatEater Podcast Network YouTube channel. Connect with The MeatEater Podcast Network MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey American history buffs, hunting history buffs, listen up, we're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition titled The Mountain Men, 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the West represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the Mountain Man era and what ended it.

We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white-tailed deer skin trade which is titled The Long Hunters 1761 to 1775. So again, this new mountain man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre-order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History, The Mountain Men, 1806 to 1840 by me, Stephen Rinella.

Smell us now, lady. Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia, the Meat Eater podcast. Welcome to MeatEater Radio Live. It's 11 a.m. Mountain Time on Thursday January 30th. That's not right. It is Thursday, February 6th. Who are Thursday, January 30th? I'll still be in old Mexico. And you're not reading a script. No, no. This isn't scripted. Off the dome. It's good because Steve refused to read that portion in last week's episode, so just covering up his tracks. As I said, we are live, if you can't tell by that live error. I'm your host, Randall Williams, and I'm joined today by Seth Morris and Yanis Pitellis. And we also have the pleasure of having Ryan Callahan join us for a little bit in today's episode.

We've got a great show for you today. We're going to go all in on our recent Mexico coos deer trip. We've got a little show and tell plan with our bucks or whatever Janice brought to share. We're going to talk to Phil Kramer, a guide with more than 17 years of experience hunting coos deer in Mexico. We're going to chat with friend of the program and meat eater contributor, Jim Heffelfinger, who literally wrote the book on deer of the

Southwest, and we're going to play a delightful little game called Two Truths and a Lie. But before we get started, if anyone out there in the audience has questions for Jim or Phil, we have two experts that'll be joining us today, so you can get any of the questions you want answered about coosdeer, coosdeer hunting, just add them into the chat and we'll try to get those guys to answer them. And yeah, looking forward to talking with those gentlemen who we just saw, you know, less than a week ago. Yeah, we were eating Sonoran hot dogs with them. Oh man, I think I had three. In total, in our total time down there? Yeah. I think I had three in

one sitting. Well, we I think we each started with two and then got a third. Hmm. Yeah, I guess we only went to one dog place. Yeah. We missed it on the way down. Cal insisted on tacos on the way down, which was not a mistake, but it also wasn't a hot dog. Oh, I got a tripe burrito. Mm-hmm. Can't find those up here in Bozeman Yeah, and that one guy got tattoos all over his face and neck yeah exactly it was an interesting crowd win-win Yeah, Jim hooked us up. I feel like with our new favorite Mexican joint in Tucson. Oh that place well you never went to El Guero Canelo, but that was our standby

Yeah, and it's good, but we talked to a couple police officers that came into our new favorite. What was it called? La Carrieta? I don't remember. Yeah, however, you say cart in Spanish is the name of this place I think Del Rojo or something Aurora. Carreta del Rora. There you go. We'll get Jim on it. But Yeah, I like their dogs better and then we had that gym on it. But yeah, I like their dogs better. And then we had that tasty little taco that was like two small flour tortillas with a poblano chili, I believe, splayed out across both of them, some carne asada, and then melted cheese on top of that. Very simple, four ingredients, and then you'd have to cut the poblano in half and you get two little mini tacos. I think I like that better than the dog.

That's the best Sonoran dog I've had. Yeah, it was a great dog. It was very tasty. Thank you to our friends at Carreta Del Rora. Oh. Oh? Before we get started, some exciting announcements to get to. You can pre-order the Mountain Men audiobook, Meat Eaters American History, The Mountain

Men, 1806 to 1840. Pre-order now. It is released on Tuesday of this coming week, so Tuesday, February 11th. So if you pre-order it now, it will just download automatically and show up wherever you get your audiobooks the morning of its release. And yeah, it's like 11, 12 bucks. I think it's a great deal. You're going to get your money's worth on content. How do you feel about the new project? I'm happy with it. I think it's great. It's, you know, there's like no shortage of wild mountain men stories, and we tried to cover as many as we could.

Would you mind just promoting the book as if you were an old mountain man in the same parlance and verbiage? Oh man, you know, for all the research that I did, I didn't work on a character. You've read a gajillion journal entries though. So you can kind of guess. Hey, come on down and get the old mountain man audio book. I'm hungry.

I'm tired. Before the spring thaw. Before the spring thaw, it'll, it'll keep you occupied in your winter quarters before we go out and chase beaver again in the spring. Don't you know? That's just me in Wisconsin. And we also, thank you. You are the expert so I can't argue with that. We're also going on a little mountain man tour. Steve and I are heading out on the road and we will be here in Bozeman at MSU on February 11th.

We'll be at the University of Montana in Missoula on February 20th. And we will be at the University of Wyoming in Laramie on the 26th of February. That is the only evening where there are still seats left. The other two are sold out, so if you got your seats reserved, we look forward to seeing you and talking mountain men and talking history. And if you're in the Greater Laramie area, where you feel like making a little road trip, you can still go on the meter. Yeah, it's not far from Denver. Oh, no.

No, we're actually flying into Denver. Avoid that long drive down. So my little sister pick you up. That'd be lovely. Plastic seats in the back of the cop car. It's kind of fun. Oh, that would be the longest ride. Yeah, probably the longest ride I've ever taken in the back of a cop car. What I like about it is I was very excited to make eye contact with other motorists, you know, during Denver traffic. Doesn't happen. Nobody looks at you. No, but it's

a fun game. Maybe you weren't making enough of the scene Yeah, we got like a hundred seats left in Wyoming. I think we we have like a space that holds 1,100 And we got 100 left. So yeah, I feel like making old drive and learning about the mountain men. Come on out and see us Yanis, I understand you have a Janus, I understand you have an announcement you'd like to make? Yeah, I just saw that too and I wasn't quite prepared, but it's a bummer to have to give this announcement, but it's in regards to the seven hunters that were on that flight going to DC last week that crashed and they lost their lives they came they were on their way home from foul planes which Cal myself you didn't

make it to one did you know Max was there Brent Clay did a trip Steve was going to missed one but yeah we did our three meteor experiences over there and yeah, seven of their hunters were on their way home and unfortunately lost their lives. So our thoughts, prayers go out to everybody involved and associated with them. But if you'd like to help out the families that are very affected by losing these seven men, there's a couple ways you can help out. There's a GoFundMe page that is, I think the title is, Help Southern families after flight five three four two crash They've already raised. This is awesome. They've raised two hundred and almost two hundred eighteen thousand dollars

Their goal was two hundred thousand dollars. So Awesome. Thank you for everybody's donated so far if you wish to help them out you can and there's another way you can help them out there's a all-inc help them out. There's a all-inclusive three-day goose hunt at Fowl Plains That they're putting on southern oak kennels is involved. I believe You get some puppy training along with this They've sold 970 of the tickets. There's nine days still remaining to buy tickets it's like a raffle deal. I'm guessing so if you wish to help out these families There's a couple great ways to do that again

thoughts go out to everybody over there at foul planes and everybody else affected with that and Cal it seems we also have announcements from you. Oh Yeah, some fun events coming real quick It seems we also have announcements from you. Oh, yeah. Some fun events coming up. Upcoming real quick. If anybody's planning on heading over or if you're not planning on heading over, but you're in that, um, big Nashville area during the National Wild Turkey Federation, um, get together.

We are going to host in conjunction with NWTF Friday night a big series of giveaways. It's like an after party to the big banquet that they have. This one I think is 40 bucks to get in the door. Routhing off a bunch of really great prize packages of first light and guns and all sorts of good things. The Isbell brothers are gonna be there playing music. Spencer Newhart and Clay Newcomb are gonna put together, and you know, Janice and I will help too, some live trivia for everybody.

We are gonna help MC, and one of the big draws is if you've never got a Gould's turkey, you can put your name in the hat for Gould's turkey hunt. Um, same with Miriam's, Eastern's, um, Rio's, you know, so it can help you complete your turkey slam. And all you gotta do is show up and and and help another super awesome habitat organization NWTF so you get a membership with that of course and We'll be there helping, you know grease the economic wheels of conservation. So

You don't have to be a member to show up But you should show up show up and become a member and you can win a bunch of stuff. I'm going just so uh Dan isabel shows me a picture of his giant buck and I get to hear the story of that giant buck he killed in kansas There you go. So if you're there, he might tell you that so if you're not into turkeys, there's also There's that and those boys be playing music I want to point out that when we did that episode of Luke Colm's pronghorn hunting they were both there and Reed sang a little bit for me like separately from the group Oh, and I was like wow that's amazing and then when I pressed him on it to do it more

He didn't really want to sing more in front of the bigger group. I didn't really understand why What did he sing to you? Just I don't know one of his songs He not it was no love song. I don't understand why. What did he sing to you? Just I don't know, one of his songs. It wasn't a love song, I don't believe. It was just a country song, but beautiful voice. And so I'm really happy to see that he's back in the saddle and going to do some singing and playing some music for us. And your average country song is like three and a half, four minutes at this point, I think.

I think a lot of them are actually getting shorter than that. So if you want to have the buck conversation, you're going to have to be like, yeah, hey man, I heard you heard, heard about a big buck. And then they're going to play a song and you're going to have to think about the next part of that story for two and a half, three and a half minutes, but it can be done. Good, good draw. And then the night after the big party. Yeah, if you can't make it to Nashville to hang out, but you're in the Salt Lake City area,

you can come hang out at Party for Public Lands. Utah BHA is doing the heavy lifting on this one. They're kicking butt. They got a bunch of brands together bunch of folks that are gonna show up to the beer bar Saturday night Salt Lake City this is in conjunction with MDF they've been in the loop the whole way doors are open to all nonprofits and it's just a celebration of public lands we're gonna give away a bunch of stuff to help get you in the door and there's just a celebration of public lands. We're gonna give away a bunch of stuff to help get you in the door and there's gonna be some ways that you can throw some cash at the support of public lands but it's really important to get everybody together show a big broad coalition of folks that know that

federally managed lands are public lands and those are the ones that are open to everybody to go out and explore, hunt, fish, recreate, super important to us. And we want you to show up Saturday night at the beer bar. You can track down the event through Backcountry Hunters and Anglers and the event through Backcountry Hunters and Anglers and pre-register to make sure that you have a ticket to get in the door. So does it cost anything to get in? It doesn't cost anything to get in but we are going to hit maximum capacity on the venue so you can ensure the fact that you can get in by registering early and then we are also going to allow some pre-registration at the First Light booth at Western Hunt Expo as well. Janice and I and a bunch of the First Light crew are going to be

down there. We're coming in a little late but look for that big First Light booth, Phelps booth booth FHF booth Dave Smith decoy booth at the Western Hunt Expo we'll get you pointed in the right direction yep come show me a picture your big buck tell me tell me a story who's deer buck make it make it real quick sure if you kill the kooz I'd love to see it speaking of photos photos of Coos, dear Buck, Phil. Oh, yes. I think it's time for show and tell. Show and tell, you say? Please. Oh, you're missing out, Cal. Yeah. Yeah

Did you do the light thing before no, that's new that's really I'm just trying stuff over here You know some some of it will stick some won't but you know I think we always evolving we keep the pulsing light show great sounds nice nice touch Well, we've got some photos as we've mentioned we just got back from Mexico last week we've got some photos to share with the gang. That's pre haircut there. Pre haircut brought in the sides a little bit. Actually this photo was inspiration for the haircut based on the comments I received. That's the buck I shot on day day four maybe of being down there, day four, day five, something like that.

They kind of all run together. Tell me about it. But yeah, we got like, Yannis and I were actually trying to get me to shoot another buck earlier that morning and he dove over a ridge and then this buck was chasing a doe on the same hillside a little ways down, so we rallied up and met up with Seth and Kate, who's one of the guides down there. And this buck and a smaller buck were chasing a doe, just kind of going crazy all over the hillside. And they went down into a bottom and then popped up to something.

Yeah, to 250. And he paused for just a second Maybe to catch his breath or collect his thoughts because he was having a rather active morning, and I shot him and And you put an end to all that I did I did But that was great. I was super excited to just be able to go down there on like 48 hours notice. And then I wanted to shoot a buck that looked like a Cous Deer buck. And that's the buck I found.

That looks like one. And then the other funny twist to this was there was a bigger buck on that hill, Macho Grande. And we were trying to get Seth to shoot him, but he never popped back up. But there was a moment in time when Cade and I were retrieving that buck where we heard Yana say on the radio,

Seth, why don't you get behind the gun? And Cade and I sprinted to the nearest little creek bottom and hid behind some big rocks until the coast was clear. So we even had a little bit of adventure after I had pulled the trigger. Yeah. But yeah, just a really nice morning. I was happy to do it with all my friends there. I think that was the only buck I was But yeah, just a really nice morning.

I was happy to do it with all my friends there. I think that was the only buck I was present for the shooting of. Well, you had two others that literally slipped out of being your buck by just seconds. Yeah, yeah, maybe the morning before. Yeah, the morning before. Seth and Janice turned up a buck that was just cruising down a hill and by the time I got there and got set up on him

He he had walked down to the bottom and was coming up our side So I did a little hike around the other side tried to turn him up, but never saw him again and then we made a big hike over to the agave patch and there was a buck over there there maybe a couple bucks and they never turned up but I did have a doe almost step on me. Oh right that was exciting. I wish we had that on video but yeah we were waiting for these deer to step out and I'm laying down behind the gun and Janis is messing with his, and something just passes right in front of my face. And I thought maybe his seat, like his foam seat pad blew away,

or something blew out of his backpack. And then I thought, cause it was windy, and then I thought a foam seat blowing away wouldn't spray gravel on my face and gun. And I looked up and there was a doe. She had literally stepped between me and the bush that was maybe six feet away. And that's probably the closest I've ever come to having a deer step on me.

It was close. Um, but then we did have multiple days of 20 to 30 mile an hour sustained winds. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was brutal. And Cal had a couple other close encounters with deer just wandering up the Up to his glassing point Oh, yeah. Yeah, I did have a uh buck and doe just kind of leisurely Walk within under 10 yards, which was always fun. Yeah, I thought it was uh, my glassing partner Pete

Walking around and I finally looked and no it was it was too dear. It was dear. Yeah. Cute little deer. Lots of stories, lots of fun. Here's a picture of your buck, Cal. Why don't you tell us about that guy? Oh, so we spotted this guy the first after it was like the not technically what we would have typically said is like the hunt day. Obviously you get all the hunting in that you can, but we went out, made sure our rifles were sighted in

and shot a bunch of rocks and paper, which is super fun. And then we split off to just kind of casually look for deer. And Seth and I ended up sprinting off of one mountain and doing a nice jog. I turned to Seth at one point and I said, because he was running behind me, picking up all the stuff that was falling off of me, which is nice to have that back up.

And I said, we're just gonna keep up this pace as long as gravity allows. Yep. As soon as we hit the uphill, went to a walk. We went to a walk, yep. But made it up onto the same slope that the buck was on, um, just in time to see him get kind of set up and he slipped behind a tree and we were ready to smoke him as soon as, uh, he stepped out of the, the bush that he went behind and he never stepped out from the the bush that he went behind and he never stepped out from behind the bush

So as Coos Deer do all the time. Yeah. Yeah, I was disappear they have like this reputation as Like being very hard to see the gray ghost the gray ghost and I was surprised as the first time Coos Deer hunter You know like we're spotting a lot of them. I was sort of thinking we'd get there and just be grinding it out, trying to find a deer. We found a lot of deer, but man, a lot of the deer that were interesting would just step behind something and you'd never see them again for the rest of the week. I thought that was the most- Flat light, low light situations. Yeah. I thought that was the last light low light situations. It's shocking how they can be standing on a relatively wide open

hillside in the open and just totally be invisible to the, to the naked eye at distance, especially so. Yeah. Anyway, uh, we stayed with this little ball or rut activity for the next day and a half and could not turn this dude up, but it was still just kind of the place to be. And eventually he, we had not seen a deer all morning and pretty close to one o'clock in the afternoon, one doe stepped out and it was right before it was about to hike off and go check out another spot and sat back down, stared at the doe, looked all around forever.

Nothing came out. And then finally that dude rolled out and yeah great buck nice carries all the mass all the way through and a nice heavy buck one of his sides the picture doesn't really capture it but one of his sides the the main beam just ends in like a broom handle like it flattens out which is kind of neat and it's yeah like from the top it just looks like the end of a hot dog it's just there's no point to it it's just round and round and it's yeah like from the top it just looks like the end of a hot dog It's just there's no point to it. It's just round and round and thick Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was that was super awesome

and that pea shooter there is the short action sawtooth, which is a new build for Sig Sauer and Man sweet shooting gun. Very cool. I'm going to be honest with everybody. Like we're not hiking our butts off. Like we typically do on a ton of hunts.

You got to get someplace high and see a ton of country, um, kind of get math to work on your sides and the, in the cows deer, uh, arena. So there's a lot of sitting and those guns are Incredible shooting platforms and all of us have lots of wind to deal with and it's just so nice Bipod on that sawtooth is just a rock solid Here I'm jealous of yours. Mine was shooting good, but yours is pretty much punch in the same hole at a hundred yards. It was just Pretty sweet. Yeah, and yeah, not with a ton of bags and stuff right? Like I feel like you could if you really solidified that position it might be doing just a smidge better. Yeah. Hey American History Buffs, Hunting History

Buffs, listen up we're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition titled The Mountain Men, 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the West represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried,

what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white-tailed deer skin trade, which is titled The Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain Man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre-order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History The Mountain Men 1806 to 1840 by me Stephen Rinella. Here we have a photo of Seth Spuck. What is that weird photo? Well, Phil, why don't you click to the right there? That's how an artist. That's an artsy photo.

Yeah. Yeah. Picture boy. Yeah. So my, I don't know how many days into the trip it was when I killed mine the day after my day after yours so whatever non-specific answer I gave for that just add one and you'll find Randall's buck plus one so this so we're pretty sure that you guys saw this buck the day before we got a quick little glam glimpse of it and it disappeared. Like who's deer do. Um, next morning I found myself looking at the same hillside and yeah, just happened to pick this buck up on the hillside.

He kind of rolled over the ridge with a smaller buck. Um, and then he bedded down in the wide open and I was like oh this is perfect just gonna go down there I was like 800 and some yards at this point I was like I'm just gonna run down there kill well I go down there and can't find him he's like Kade our one guy to wear with he was watching him the whole time while I was like making a move on them. And he's like, Hey, still, still there. But we're like where I was, um, you just couldn't see him on the hillside. So I kind of moved around and ended up like getting on this little knob at the

base of the hill and just sitting there waiting for him to move. And then he did get up and move and then Cade lost him. And we just like lost this buck. And, uh, I was kind of getting ready to just give up and go look for a different buck. Cause I thought he like just got out of there without us seeing. And Cade ended up finding them again.

And it turns out that I had ended up about 120 yards from this buck, not knowing it. So I actually had to pick all my stuff up and like very quietly backtrack and go from about 120 yards to 300 yards where I ended up shooting them just so I could get a shot at them because where I was sitting I couldn't see them. So yeah it was kind of a bit of a scramble to get there set up on the tripod and Yeah, it was kind of a bit of a scramble to get there, set up on a tripod and the rest was history. Shot him at 310 yards.

Lovely. Lovely. Yeah. We got some photos here from Seth. Oh yeah, there's Randall putting his boots on in the morning. The photos I shared here were not much of the hunt just because we were kind of playing with a bunch of unreleased SIG products that I had a bunch of photos of so I couldn't really share those yet but uh, yeah it's just just kind of our environment down there what we

experienced and some quite a few of those authentic Mexican food. We've had a few questions about the taste difference between cow's deer and white tail up here is there, anything noticeable there? I've been eating cows deer, uh, nonstop since, since we've gotten back and it's fantastic. Um, just, I mean, so you're aware, a lot of cowboys on the ranch, uh, and they absolutely love this meat. Uh, it's a highly sought after.

So we typically do give some meat away. We ate a whole ham while we were down there. Chili Colorado, which is great. And then, um, yeah, I took the loins tenderloins and, and parted out the front shoulders and took those home and then gave, gave the rest to the, to the caballeros on the place. And it's good, it's really good. I think it's very tender, super awesome.

I got a little tub of front leg curry down there that is fantastic and eating several little backstrap steaks and, um, they're, they're awesome. Really good. Really good. Is it distinct from the rest of your North American whitetails? I think you're going to have like, like these are non-GMO whitetails, right? Like Like these are non-GMO whitetails, right? Like they're not getting anywhere near corn, soybeans, et cetera. So I think there's going to be a different flavor to this deer versus like your Iowa corn patch deer. And we have a question for Janice.

Let me see if I can find it here. Oh, okay. This is from attack the the d-point He says so I heard that Janice ate 11 burritos one day on the Mexico trip. Is this true? Yes Am I even gotten a 12 the next day? They're small burritos though. They're not like one burrito you buy for $10 for lunch and it fills you up. These are The one burrito you buy for $10 for lunch and it fills you up. These are Depending on bite size, you know three to four bite burritos. Would you say the lunch burritos are I mean I made some

You made some my gringo burritos So did I so that day that I set this record that now stands? At that ranch. I think for for breakfast I had two or three big gringo breakfast burritos then I had five for lunch No, I think I had eight oh I had my four plus I brought four more from the guy that wasn't eating his burritos, but I gave one of his away to you, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So what does that bring me up to? That's nine, and then I think I had two or three at dinner. Yeah, and then you had a, you had just one, you had a dessert burrito too. You had straight frijoles. Just frijoles. Yeah, that's how I like my dessert down there in Mexico.

All the meals, all the meals were the exact same except for the protein like breakfast and dinner And lunch were tortillas Yeah tortillas frijoles cheese some hot sauce or salsa and then a big pot of either eggs or Chorizo or I think there's beef one night there's pork one night I mean it was like in Sonora no matter what there's going to be a pot of frijoles at every meal and it's Sonora and tortillas and it's the same pot of frijoles it just gets

added to throughout the week delicious so very delicious so they're refried beans I like to point out too. It's more like gravy consistency here I feel like you get refried beans on your plate, and it's it's a lot drier. There's more consistent More like a mashed potato. Yeah, yeah, you can eat it with a fork You could sit down there for those beans you can't eat with a fork you have to have a spoon. Yeah fantastic Phil we got a couple the other thing we did on this trip was Janis, you're testing some materials on some britches. I didn't get that video.

True that. But we have some other, I couldn't find it, but we do have some other videos here of some product testing and promo. Yeah, I mean in the spirit of the Super Bowl coming up, you know, one thing everyone talks about the commercials. Yeah, and first light actually commissioned you guys to that's right shoot some stuff Just for I think they're gonna do a big ad blitz. Seth and I were inspired. Yeah, let's take a look at these here Can you reindeer Can you rain gear do this Can I do this? Omen storm shelter

Huh? Yeah, that was a good. That's a good use of money from first slide. There's there's a few more We didn't get paid much for these. I'll give that one like a five Okay, how about this need some tough brush busting pants, but you don't want to lose all your mobility Saw buck pants by first light Yep, okay, we're improving our craft here Who directed that one? Whatever hat this is Okay, and then this one is is

Shows sort of the adaptability of some of the first light line here Do you want to look good on the streets, but still need to be active? First lights through eight pants Wow that was the trip back from the old McDonald's there. First stop once we hit free soil. Yeah, that's a meat eater tradition. When you get back to America, we like to go to the golden arches to celebrate freedom. Yeah, first light doesn't know that we made those.

No, no. I'm sure you'll see more. I'm sure they're thrilled now. My phone's ringing. Watch out for those when you're watching the Super Bowl. Mm-hmm. You might be able to vote on your favorite So the high kick one the best that really shows off your I like the urban parkour Yeah, I wish we'd gotten the first one when we're going to McDonald's and I fell off that wall and did a somersault one when we're going to McDonald's and I fell off that wall and did a somersault unintentionally. We've got we've got a bunch of people saying who

Randall looks like in those videos. We've got John Wilkes Booth, that's a good one. Oh I've got three words for you there. Six semper tyrannis. We've got you know Doc from Back to the Future, I think we've heard that one before. Dwight Shroot, I think that's kind of rude. Mm-hmm vibes though not appearance just vibes His hair looks like Bill Murray and Kingpin. We've got but that fella that fella says I got to get those pants. So yeah Yeah, it works You're welcome first light. Oh, that's good stuff. That's good stuff Do we have anything else to share from our trip or should we move on to our guest? I will say you know you heard the buzz

We've all heard the buzz about the sig Zulu six binoculars the image stabilized This trip like hands down Made it made me a believer of that binocular it blew the first five out of seven days I'd say what average the wind the wind blew not the binoculars 20 miles an hour with gusts well into the 30s all day long It wasn't until the last two days where we had like a nice sonoran morning Where it was quiet and just and just clear and you could get sunburn the rest of the days It was just honking.

And those image stabilized binoculars, I mean, the difference between that and non, on a tripod now, not just hand holding, but on a tripod, regular vinyl is still shaking. The image is shaky. You're trying to find a deer that's 80 to 100 pounds. Very hard. Image stabilized Seth huge difference

We heard coyotes yipping one day and Seth freehand with the image stabilized binoculars like oh there they are Yeah, and he's like no no way out in that flat and I ranged them at almost 1600 yards, you know That was with the tiles. Yeah, pretty impressive. Yeah the 12s are my favorite. It's crazy. These were, you know even though it was windy these 15s this is what I spotted my buck with this exact pair but these on a tripod were just phenomenal for finding those little things. All right I think we've got a guest waiting for us. Let's talk some more.

Mexico. Oh, yeah. Good. Good friend. Phil Kramer. Phil, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm good, gentlemen. How about yourselves? Oh, great.

Well, we're a little sad that we're not in Mexico hunting anymore, but we're slowly making our way back to reality. You go through that little depression when you first get home. Yes. Especially since it's been snowing nonstop since we've gotten home. So those little deer, all you'd be able to see is the top of their racks right now in Bose Angeles here. So Phil, uh, we just had the pleasure of spending, uh, a little over a week

with you down south of the border. But could you tell our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do and what your experience is? Absolutely. But I must say, I almost didn't recognize you. Rojo Grande with a haircut. Oh, thank you. You're the first person to mention it. You're the first person. Everybody else has just sort of brushed it off. I was really excited to debut the new do here, but thank you, Phil. I appreciate that. You bet. You bet. Well, guys, my name's Phil Kramer.

Live in Arizona, born and raised here, moved off to a couple of different states throughout school and my career. couple different states throughout school and my career. I grew up on the back of my dad in a backpack running a trap line and that kind of instilled a love for the outdoors. And I've never been able to shake it and God willing I'll have it till the day I die. So with that being said, I've always been in the outdoors.

I've always hunted. I've always found any excuse outdoors, I've always hunted, I've always found any excuse I could to get outside and that has kind of led me to J. Scott Outdoors and Gould's Turkey Hut and that was a combination of timing with Jay looking to expand the business and grow it as well as me making a full-time career change. Prior to that I worked in the drilling industry, which fortunately left enough time for me to be in the outdoors and chasing my passion

when I wasn't on a drill break. So everything kind of worked together and now it's full-time. I spend the majority of my time down in Mexico looking at ranches, scouting new ranches, going to some of our existing ranches and making sure everything's good there. And then as I got to do with you gentlemen, I get the guide and that's when the real fun happens is getting to interact with you guys and seeing what we can put on the ground and battling the winds when it happens.

Yes, we did our fair share of that over the past week or so. Um, I don't know if you guys have questions, but this was a first time trip to Mexico for me and my first time hunting out of the country. I wonder if you have just like a few thoughts on, for those who have never done this, what do people need to know about Mexico and what sort of, what can they expect? Um, cause I think there's a, for I've talked to a lot of people since I got back and said, oh man, that's always been a bucket list trip for me, but, um, it's a

little intimidating, uh, to leave the country and go hunting in a place where you don't speak the language. So you just share a little bit about that. You bet. And I think the first thing to remember is anytime you leave the country, you know, make sure you have your passport, make sure you do your research, make sure you're going with a trusted outfitter and or person that knows the ins and outs of where you're going. A lot of people are intimidated and there's a lot of stuff in the news that makes people

think it's not safe. However, this is my 17th year doing it. I think it's Jay's 28th or 29th year and we're very fortunate that we've never had a bad experience. We can say there's a lot of things to that and the main thing is we do our research, we work with the local people, we make sure that all of our paperwork's in order, we work with licensed Mexican outfitters to make sure that everything we're doing is above board. We're not traveling to spots that are unsafe and we're doing everything right.

So my first and foremost advice to anyone looking into doing a trip like this is make sure you go with a reputable outfitter. Do your research, get references. If they can't provide references, then that's probably a red flag. But don't be afraid to go, because as you guys saw, and most of you guys have been down there quite a bit, it's a trip of a lifetime.

I mean, you get to experience true Mexican culture, true authentic food. And best of all, when you're out on those hills, most of the time, your phones don't ring it. You don't have cell service and you get back to the way life should be. Amen. How would you compare this year's deer season? You're back at home in Arizona. How would you compare this year's deer season

to those you've experienced previously in terms of bucks and weather and all that? What are your takeaways from your 2025 season? As you guys witnessed firsthand, the weather was horrendous. Normally you'll get a day or two of winds that will gust 20-30 miles an hour. For whatever reason this year, especially during your trip, the wind did not let up. It never blew itself out at night. Every morning we're greeted

with just a blast of air right in your face and that made it difficult. As you guys mentioned, you're looking for a little animal and anytime you have that wind, everything around you is moving, your optics are moving and it makes it difficult. The other thing is, coos deer or cows deer, depending on how you say it, is they're a small animal and they hate the wind. It dulls their senses, it makes it harder for them to smell predators, to hear, so they don't move near as much. And with the drought that we've been having for the last two years, and it made it double tough. We were very fortunate.

We were able to dig out some really good bucks, and a lot of our hunters had experienced great success. And all I can say is we're looking forward to some rain and some good moisture, and God willing, the weather cooper cooperate a little bit. But one thing about it is no matter what the weather is, we can't do anything about it. Just go down and hunt hard. And we're very fortunate that we have good properties,

good genetics and we can scratch out some good deer. Love it. Yeah, we, I mean, despite the weather, we were out there in the dark in the morning and hunting till dark in the evening, which is I think always the mark of a great trip. That one windy day, I think it was the second to last day, or might've been the last day,

we watched that doe just stand there in the sun for an hour and a half and not move. Yeah. It's just when it's windy and cold like that, those things you can just tell, you just look at them and they're like, they're off their game. There's like, I just don't want to do anything. And not a lot of body fat on them to keep them warm.

Yeah. Phil, we've got a question for you and I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but yes, you do. Um, you know, you talked about, uh, references from, uh, clients and how important those are to check out. I was wondering if you could provide some references for the four meat eater crew members who had the pleasure of joining you. If you just have a couple words, you know, reviewing your experience, you know, whatever comes to mind. We're all here,

we're all listening, we're all trying to improve as hunters. So why does Pete from SIG sour get a free out? He's not here to defend himself. I mean, we can talk whatever we want about Pete. That's right. You got a word or two. No, I don't. But I thought, you know, if Phil did. Yeah.

Phil, what do you say? Take him any order that you'd like to please. Well, I'll tell you what, Randall. I'll start with Rojo Grande, AKA Wonder Boy. There's a lot of names we got for you, but it was an absolute pleasure. I was greatly surprised. You told me first time Cuse Hunter, I go, oh boy,

he's not gonna see a deer. And I tell you what, Randall, you did very good. I was very impressed with your glassing ability. Not only that, you know as well as I do, a lot of times we'll spot something and then trying to walk someone else in on that same animal so you know you're looking at the same spot can be very difficult, but you and I, for whatever reason,

seemed to click on that. We were able to find the deer, get each other in the same perspective, and evaluate the deer. So Randall, I gotta give you props, man. That, that was impressive. I appreciate that. It always takes a day or two to like get your, uh, get your lingo on the same page. You know what somebody calls a knob and what somebody calls a, you know, this or

that. So, uh, yeah, I feel like we became simpatico. Is that Spanish in our, uh, in our glassing lingo. You bet. You bet. And Seth is just calm. Like I had to ask him two or three times, Seth, you okay? I never heard anything.

Just in the game, you know? Yeah. Just quiet, like just going with the flow. And I was like, Oh, Seth's still here. Never knew he was around until it was go time. the game, you know? Yeah, just going with the flow and I was like, oh, so that's still here. I never knew he was around until it was go time and time to shoot. So, uh really

enjoyable. Oh, awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I didn't get to hunt much with Cal but we talked a lot on the radio because normally we were not on the same page. We could not figure out where each other was looking. Didn even though there were two mountains at one time. But it was a pleasure.

We got to spend a lot of time together in camp and I learned a lot, very interesting and a wealth of knowledge that I never knew existed. It was a lot of fun. And then yawning. I mean, we hunted together just about every day because we're the only stubborn fools that doesn't think 105 inch bucks, a big enough buck.

So we got to spend a lot of time together, a lot of laughs, a lot of knowledge, going back and forth. He constantly proved me wrong on things that I thought I knew was a holy grail. To the point where he didn't even show me videos. He's like, Phil, you were wrong. I'm crying again.

You know, it's just part of the- Well, you know, you're'm crying again. It's just part of the day. You're talking about how it's so important to have the same nomenclature, right? When you're out there hunting, because you are communicating with each other through radios to be like, hey, are you looking at this sentry plant or this acatia or whatever?

And so it's very important to know which ones. And we had, I think last last year a couple years ago through that Picture this app figured out which ones were the century plants. Well, it turns out it's the ones that we also call agave It's one the same. It's just that every whatever 75 or 100 years They shoot out that stalk and it has the flowers and all that and then Phil was like, yeah But it's only that purple one that has the skinnier leaves. I'm like, oh, okay. That's great I'm glad I learned that and then the next day I'm walking around I'm like well hold on that one with the fat leaves also has a stalk coming out of it. So

Yeah, but again, it's I'm not trying to prove anybody right or wrong But it's just so that all of us can be on the same page next time and you're like, yeah You see that century plant? Yeah, that's where that buck is Yeah word of advice for first-time Cuse deer hunters if you don't know anything about plants same page next time and you're like, yeah, you see that century plant. Yeah. That's where that buck is. Yeah. Word of advice for first time, Kuzdeer hunters, if you don't know anything about plants, uh, there aren't a whole lot of other landmarks out there to like direct people in a lot of those hillsides are pretty, yeah, you gotta know you're very in Florida.

They're very uniform. And so it's like below the yucca above the red oak, there's a dead juniper and then there's a dead oak and it's just like unless you're dialed in on what you're looking at you're gonna be your heads gonna be spinning. Yeah you spend a lot of time down there trying to tell people landmarks that like will walk someone into a deer. Mm-hmm. And when everything looks the same it's tough to do that. Yeah unless you're saying like there's three there's three yuccas. Yeah, unless you're saying like there's three,

there's three yuccas. Two of them are a little higher. The third one's offset a little bit to the right. Below that is a red oak. Yeah. You know, and it's just like, you gotta be able to recognize that stuff and not scratch your head.

Cause otherwise everybody else can be looking at that deer and you're gonna be looking at the wrong mountain. Sometimes you end up looking at the wrong mountain anyway, right Cal? And working really hard at it. I'm guessing that people, folks are wondering too why we all went guided this year with, you know, J. Scott's crew and Phil and Kate and if you are, I'll try to explain it quickly. and Phil and Kate and if you are, I'll try to explain it quickly. The logistics of going to do it DIY, you have to have your own, bring down your own truck,

own trailer, own side by side. Steve and I have hunted down there without side by sides. It's doable. I don't know if he ever done one with that side by side with us. Yeah, you've done one too. A lot of hiking, you're just not covering the amount of ground that you wish you could be covering.

So it's just much less, it's less efficient hunting. In years past, we've paid people to drive, you know, trucks and side by sides from Montana. We've had friends come from Colorado and bring side by sides to make it easier to cover all those logistics. And it, you know, for those of you that haven't experienced the other, you won't know.

But for me, being the guy that's usually worried about all that it was really nice just to land in Arizona meet up with these guys and boom across the border you know next thing you know we're sighting in our rifles and then we're hunting you know and they took care of all that that aside it was awesome for me to go to hang out with a couple real coos deer guides for a week It was a real confidence booster for me to know that yes They definitely did glass up more deer than I did but not by the ratio that I thought So I feel like I'm ready to go coos deer hunting again, and I'm confident that I can find a couple deer

Yeah, no, it was a great trip. And, uh, I think like part of it too, is just having someone with the amount of experience that Phil does. Telling you what, what coos do you like? What they don't like, what you've seen them do. I mean, and like predicting what they're going to do, which is something that. Like, even if you've been down there a couple of times, you don't have that depth of knowledge.

No. Well, and just sheer eyes on the mountain. You know, guys helping you glass because a lot of times you'll get up on your glass and point and it's almost overwhelming. And when you can share that with other people that you know, putting in the work and they're able to find animals, it helps a lot. But one thing I was going to say on the little review there, I will say Yannis doesn't quit. I mean, on the last night till I was like, it's dark, we're done. Yannis was like, I think I got five more minutes left. No quit. It was just a great time. Yeah, I like to hunt, and you know, so I like to hunt right until the end if possible.

Make sure you're on the same page with identification of the plants. So we did a little, I don't know, show and tell basically, as you say, when we were on there and getting ready to sight the guns in, it's like, okay, this is juniper, that's a red oak, that's a central plant, that's a yucca, that's mesquite, that's an ocotillo. So that way when it came down to the nitty gritty, when it was time to find some deer, we were all on the same page. And I think that went a long way through the week we spent together. Yeah. No, it was great. And I gotta say, like, even when you're butt cheek to butt cheek on the mountain You cannot take your eyeballs off a deer. So oh, yeah Even if it's a whisper not over radio to the person next to you

like you have got to walk them in and Sometimes the deer that you're seeing it's because it is only because they moved Mm-hmm, and it takes a long time for the person right next to you in the exact same spot to stare at that spot and be like, oh, yep, that weird shadow line is part of a deer's butt cheek laying down underneath and behind whatever. So that communication can get really frustrating. So once you lock in it's an incredible benefit. Yep for sure. Phil really

appreciate your time and really appreciate your your hospitality last week. I know I speak for all of us when we had a tremendous experience and, uh, I hope we can hunt again very soon. Yeah. But before Phil goes, uh, are there any listener questions or viewer questions? Also, Phil, I want you to talk about the Goulds hunt that you're donating for NWTF. Absolutely.

Absolutely. So as I mentioned, I'm also director of operations for Gould's Turkey Hunt and we run approximately 200 to 250 hunters down through Mexico and Sonora and Chihuahua every year chasing the Gould's Turkey. So what we did is actually we approached and donated a Gould's Turkey Hunt that you'll get to come down and hunt with us, either in Sonora or Chihuahua. And hopefully knock that Gould's turkey off your bucket list and go one step further to your Royal Slam or World Slam, whichever it might be. Yeah, and Yanis, we did have one question for Phil that someone actually, someone else in the chat already answered, and I'm assuming it's inaccurate someone asked what the

boon and Crockett minimum was for cows deer and Lance answered 100 inch for typical 105 for non-typical if that's that's accurate Phil I don't know if you're if you know or not but oh I'm sure you know I believe it's 110 actually for typical but honestly there's some deer that we kill that just score doesn't do justice you know we we try not we use score as a descriptive tool right because that's what everyone wants to get and and it's a gives us a good tool to actually measure however there's some deer that we kill that score just done do justice Even though it might be 116, that buck should be 130,

just depending on where the mass measurements lie. And the blading, just like cow's buck out at the end of the beams, I mean, broomstick, and just didn't get credit for it except for the one measurement. So I believe it's 110 though, for book minimum. Fantastic. Well, Phil, again, pleasure seeing you

and maybe we'll run into each other at the Hunt Expo next week. Well, Jay and I'll definitely be at the NWTF so anyone out there can look us up. I'm sure I'll run into Yanni and Cal out there and I'm not sure about the Hunt Expo but if we can get out there, definitely look forward to running into you guys. And your hunt is being auctioned Saturday night or Friday night.

Saturday night at, uh, at the dinner. Yes, sir. Cool. Yeah. So I think, I think you can bid on those online as well. Um, so if you want to go on a killer Gould's turkey hunt and support an awesome habitat organization, check check that one out.

Alrighty, thank you, Phil. Thanks, Phil. Good to see you. Phil, should we take listener feedback now? Or should we? Well, we we've got a couple I'll fire off a couple and then we'll move on to Jim who's being very very patient with us yes thank you Jim Hufflefinger Jim's got nothing better to do Devin asks hey Seth how's it going just curious who ended up with that sweet Illumicraft boat you and Chester did the walleye fishing tour in if you if you remember oh yeah I still have it

that's who ended up with it yeah still use it all summer long love that boat put a lot of fish in that boat yeah gonna use it again this summer all right on Leland is asking Randall did you come across any mountain women in your research? That's a good question. So during the era of the mountain men, there weren't a ton of like Euro-American women who came out with the trapping brigades, but interestingly enough a lot of mountain men married into tribes and had relationships with Indigenous women. And that was like a huge part of mountain men culture. Like, a very significant percentage of all mountain men marriages were to Indigenous women. And I think Bridger was married to three different Indigenous women. So in the book, we have a chapter about sort of all the different facets of mountain men tribal relations and in that chapter we do get into sort of the the unique

history of mountain men marrying native women. And we also have a segment of a the wife of a missionary who attended rendezvous and was horrified at the behavior that she witnessed so Yeah, look forward to that Great question for Seth. How did you find your place in Alaska? Was it a Zillow thing or just word of mouth? Oh, I was up at Steve's place One summer just for vacation and it's right next door to his and there was a for sale sign on the front porch Good old- fashioned way. Yeah. Yeah. Hippie homebrew.

This is kind of a general question, but it's it's dumping in Wisconsin. He says while he's stuck inside, what's the best way to get out and start prepping shooting lanes during the winter? Anything to do during the spring? I mean, he's just asking about prepping shooting lanes during every season of the year. But you can if there's anything you can get a head start on when it's during the winter, I don't know if you guys have any. General winter land management principles for a Wisconsin landowner.

I think we have someone who could speak to that. Is he asking specifically about shooting lanes? I mean, I was directing this at Uyanis, just about when, yeah, Randall summed it up well. What are you doing with your property? What are you thinking about right now with your Wisconsin deal on your property? Oh man, what am I not thinking about? But I mean, I guess to answer the shooting lane question,

I mean, I don't think it'd be really much different in any season other than your leaf, coverage might be different. So winter is a great time to do it because it's gonna it looks Most like what it looks like in November now versus you know once that you get new leaves coming out But yeah, just get out there with a chainsaw man and go to town but you know if I could get to Wisconsin anytime I wanted to.

I'd probably be thinking about maybe doing some frost seeding. If there was anything, you know, I'm getting ready to do a big like native grass and for restoration. And we'll be applying it through just frost seeding, which just basically means that you're gonna add it when there is some snow on the ground and then let the freeze thaw cycle, bring those seeds into the ground versus trying to plant them.

There's that. You know, herbicide, there's probably not much that's really going to do well because the foliar applications won't work because there is no foliage and I don't think that the plants are really still senescing so they're not really gonna bring in much herbicide so that's probably out but TSI timber stand improvement which is basically walking through the woods with a chainsaw and knocking down trees that you have deemed that aren't you know worthwhile for the wildlife in your area that's, that's like a every day of the year thing. Yeah, well this time of year puts a lot of buds on the ground for deer to eat. That's right. That's what deer like. That's right. If you need to knock down some

trees. Hope that helps. So you got your homework. Hebrew. There you are. Alright, let's get Jim Heffelfinger in here. How about that? Let's do it. Please. Jim, thank you for your patience. Jim probably has a thought on what you might do at this time of year in Wisconsin for to improve deer habitat. I do. I'm gonna be there in a couple weeks and my suggestion is spotted cow and Bloody Marys and find a nice tavern. For some deep thinking. Yeah, yeah. That's right. We're thinking about what you might want to do with your land. Yeah. I have, I have your segue, segue Randall. Um, if you're interested in ghouls, turkey restoration, southeastern Arizona, go to Jay Scott's podcast

and find the podcast where I talked about bringing ghouls turkeys back to the U S from restoring those populations. Excellent. There you go. Excellent, there you go. Jim, as a first-time coosdeer hunter, speaking for myself, you know this is an animal that you hear a lot about and for someone living in the in the northern Rockies it's kind of this faraway exotic creature. Can you just tell our listeners a little bit about coosdeer, like the differences between whitetail and coos deer and maybe how coos deer are doing. Little state of the union.

Jim, real quick before you do that, coos are cows. We've heard it both ways so far. Jim's the main mascot. I know, I know, that's why I just. We talked about this on the podcast. I have an article, I wonder if you can link that in the show notes, um, where I talk in detail about the subspecies is named after Elliot cows, early naturalists and army surgeon. And that was his name and it was named after

him. So it's, it's cows there. There's no doubt that it's cows there. Elliot, in a footnote and one of you is a bird guy and one of his bird mag, one of his bird articles, he wrote a footnote and said, my name is pronounced C OO-W-Z. I mean, he actually tells us himself how it's pronounced. So there's no question how it's pronounced. I try not to be an enunciation Nazi and I don't correct anybody,

but that's how it's pronounced. So that's how I pronounce it. Do you feel like cows is gaining any traction whatsoever in your neck of the woods? I would say there's probably an increase in 1% in the last decade that people using cows instead of coos. Okay. No, it's not what you're saying.

We're getting somewhere. It counts as forward movement. Yeah. In fact, what I'm surprised at is the reticence that people dig their heels in and they get angry about how you pronounce the deer. And I'm just pointing out the correct way You can say it any way you want

Well, Jim what so if you're explaining to someone what the no matter what you call it what these things are What are some of your main takeaways as far as? Differentiating a coups deer or cows deer from your average whitetail So there are some species of white tail deer. They're they're not someulating a coups deer or cows deer from your average whitetail. So, there are some species of white tail deer. They're they're not some different kind of white tail.

They're they're just like there's there's about thirty eight subspecies of white tail in North and South America and they're just another one but they are different and we'll look in a minute. Here's a South Texas whitetail much

bigger of course and if we put a cow's whitetail next to it, you can see the difference, not only the shape of the antler, but the overall size. Okay, not really, not really. Here's a, so there's a comparison of the skulls of a cow's whitetail versus a Texas whitetail. So think about this, this isn't even just a big Borealis Minnesota, Wisconsin whitetail, this is from South Texas.

So just like another kind of a Southwestern white tail, but dramatically, dramatically different in. But you found a real nice cows deer skull to show off. Yes. That was, this is about 107. So you were talking about minimum score. It is 110. So that doesn't make it, but that's pretty close to minimum

Boone Crockett score. And those two have been a a couple years of each other. I mean, they're not dramatically different in age. So it's a valid comparison, especially of skull, because they're adult deer. Phil, if you can put that map up, let's look at where cows deer are distributed in the Southwest. This is a map from my book, Deer of the Southwest, and that red is colored what we call cows' white tail distribution. So you can see it doesn't touch any other kinds of white-tailed subspecies on the West or the North. There's no white tails in Northern

Arizona and Northern New Mexico. It doesn't touch any white tails on the East because the Chihuahuan Desert's a big grassland, and there's not really really white tails out there until you get over into the Carmen Mountain white tail in west Texas and then the Texas white tail. And so there's a physical separation on three sides. Now if you go south into Mexico, the cows white tail just blends into all those other smaller white tails in south Texas. There's a whole bunch of Mexican subspecies of white tail. None of them are scientifically valid or scientifically

supported by real physical differences or genetic differences. When you look at the genetics of all those Mexican subspecies, they just kind of overlap in a kind of a scattering. And we did early on about 15 years ago, I worked with funding from Boone and Crockett Club, worked with some geneticists that I know and I've worked with for a while. I collected with some friends a bunch of white tail samples from Eastern white tail, from cows white tail in the US and also in Mexico.

And we had geneticists apply a whole bunch of different genetic markers and fine tune a set of markers that really divided animals that are known cows white-tailed deer from animals that are known, not cows white-tailed deer, eastern white-tailed. And those came from Canada and from Wisconsin and from all kinds of different places that were not cows white-tailed deer. Phil, if you put that scatter diagram up, you can see what we came up with with a test. So those blue squares are cows, white-tailed deer clustering in one neat little cluster.

The white is a whole diversity of different white-tailed deer from Eastern North America that are not cows, white-tailed deer. We had one deer then, this is the value of the test, that someone comes up with a deer. And in this case, the guy's last name was Lay, and he had this deer from the attic, and his grandfather said he shot it in southern Arizona. And so, he says, if this is really a cow's white-tailed deer, this is the new world record cow's white-tailed deer. So it's an example of us applying this genetic test, taking that unknown deer that someone says is a cow's white tail deer, running it through the genetic markers, you can see it lands right in the middle of regular Eastern white tails.

So the Boone and Crockett and the Pope and Young Club are using that genetic test we developed a long time ago to keep the record book categories clean and separate and make sure nobody's got a brand new world record white tail that's really not a, world record cow's white tail, that's really not a world record cows white tail that's really not a cow's white tail and sneak one of them. So we can use genetics now to keep those record categories separately. So they do different genetically, mostly because they're physically separate from other white tails everywhere except when you go south into Mexico. Jim, I see we had a question in the comments section about, obviously, CWD is a big

concern for your average white-tailed deer hunter. Are there any known instances of a Coo's deer being affected by CWD and sort of what's the prognosis there? Do you think it's a risk spreading down into that environment? Arizona has not detected CWD and we've been testing really intensively and we're testing to the on the eastern border of Arizona because that border is New Mexico which has some positive deer. We're testing on the north and the northeast because of Colorado and Utah having positive deer. We have not detected it. It's not really being tested that much in Mexico but there hasn't been um there hasn't been any evidence of it in Mexico. So the answer, in southern New Mexico,

I think it's all mule deer that they've had some positives in south central New Mexico. So I think the answer is no, cowswhitetail deer hasn't been detected. And maybe the geographic separation and the lack of people driving back and forth with cowswhitetail in trailers might help kind of isolate that a little bit. Phil, any other questions there in the chat we can throw it Jim? Yeah sure we got a couple.

Marty's asking do the coastal cows in Mexico show any differences from the rest of the population? I don't know what differences he's referring to but if you have any insight. I don't know what differences he's referring to, but if you have any insight. Probably talk, well, he must be talking about the western border, the western coast of Mexico by the Gulf of Mexico, there's the Sea of Cortez. And no, there's genetically, cows' white tail are pretty genetically distinct. Until you go down, and we did sample a lot of white tails in Mexico, until you get down into Mexico and then it just starts getting a blend of genetics. They're not so distinct there because they don't have that physical separation and it's unique that in Sonora and and Sinaloa even you have these little white tails that are probably cows white tail living really in some really low desert country. Whereas in Arizona and New Mexico that would be mule deer habitat. But in Sonora, for some reason, we've got whitetails really low down into the desert

all the way out to the Sea of Cortez, but they're not different. Those whitetails in the state of, mixing state of Sonora, which is southwest of Sonora and along the southwest of Sonora, in the state of Sinaloa, those have been designated as a different sub-species, but that's one of those deals where there really isn't any physical differences or genetic differences that anybody has determined to be real differences. Gotcha. Other listener questions, Phil?

I see you had a couple of highlights here. Yeah, we're getting a few. Zach's asking what the typical home range radius and elevation is for cows. He says he's seen them from 1,500 feet all the way up to 5,000 in Arizona. Yeah you certainly can see them in those. Probably the most of that distribution though is going to be from 3,000 feet up to about 6,000, about 7,000 feet. Once you get 7,000 feet you start getting more into the open ponderosa pine forest which isn't as good as that

mid-elevation with shrubs. And a friend of mine did his master's degree long time ago in Southeastern Arizona and found that the distribution of the shrubs is what really governed the distribution of white tails. And that was highest in that 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 foot elevation range. Cool.

Seems like there's another part of that question. Did I miss something besides elevation? Oh, home range. Yeah. Home range radius. So we don't talk so much in terms of radius, but some of the work we did in Southern Arizona showed that it's about a square mile.

This country's so rugged from an aerial view and Whitetails being Whitetails a lot of places, about a square mile is what they'll spend most of their time in. What about during the rut, Jim? Do you know how far they're traveling? I don't know, but because we haven't done a lot of like GPS colors to track some of that stuff in Arizona, but they definitely will move. They're not staying in their square mile at that time. And so when you're out there, you're seeing a lot of bucks on the move and they're not necessarily in the home range you're using the rest of the year. They're out. They're all just looking for, for those that are close to estrus. Yeah.

Jim, did you get out and hunt coos yourself this year? I didn't. I hunted mule deer. The, when I, when I did my master's degree in South Texas, my, my research was on trophy white tails in south Texas and coyote predation after the rut it with trophy white tails because those bucks are at like close to a one-to-one buck to doe ratio old age structure there's a lot of competition for does a lot of fighting and those bucks will lose 20 25 percent of their body weight during rut in south Texas because of that so afterwards they're all worn out. They just want to find some place and hang out and recover.

And also you've got dense coyote populations in South Texas. So we were finding packs of coyotes, almost acting like wolves ecologically, taking down these post-rut mature bucks. Where normally you wouldn't think of a coyote taking down a mature buck, but it was a unique circumstance. So we knew that was happening. So my research focused on, could you control coyotes on part of the ranch and have so many mature bucks that you

saved from coyote predation that you would have more bucks to hunt? And the answer in the end was no. The answer was we saved a few bucks from coyote predation, but in the grand scheme of things, population-wise, ranch-wise, it wasn't worth all the money and effort you put into controlling coyotes. You didn't get that much benefit in terms of number of bucks that you saved. the in the West, although we're going to talk about the status of cows whitetail in Arizona. And it's surprisingly well, our harvest and survey data shows a pretty good steady increase for the last 10 years overall in hunt success, the hunt success of hunters. We try to manage in Arizona for, in terms of hunt success, we try to manage between 15 and 25% of the hunters being successful. And statewide, it was 46% hunt success.

Oh, wow. It's impressive. Buck to doe ratios, we try to manage between 20 and 30 bucks per hundred does. So 20 per hundred does is one to five ratio. The 30 bucks per hundred does is about a one to three ratio. And our average is 25 bucks per hundred does is about a one to three ratio. And our average is 25 bucks per hundred does statewide last year. That's a one to four buck to dough ratio

in mostly public land honey. It's controlled with a lottery style draw. So we control the harvest that way, but not a bad buck to dough ratio for public lands in the West for cows, white tail deer. Is that 46% success rate? Is that a spike from previous years? And if so, what do you think that's attributed to? It's the

end of an increasing trend. And then also an important point is we have a couple alternative management units in Arizona where we manage for more mature buck age structure, higher buck-to-dough ratio, lower hunter densities. And so those are much harder to get drawn, but when you do get drawn, you've got a better experience and a chance to shoot a more mature buck. And that statewide total includes a handful of those units that run higher. So that's not the average of some of the places outside of those alternative hunts. And that's at the end of kind of an increasing trend.

So not really, I guess it may be a spike, but it's definitely an increasing trend of hunt success for the last five to 10 years really. Gotcha. Guys have any other questions for Jim here? Jim, I think we were running over time here. I apologize, we didn't get you sooner, but before we go, I did wanna thank you.

For a few months ago, you sent me an email about Sonoran hot dogs and received a wonderful recommendation. And then we had the privilege of joining you for a lunch at La Correta del Rojo Aurora. Still not good on my Spanish, despite my immersion experience last week. But you, not only did you recommend these dogs,

you bought me one, or several. And so I did want to publicly just thank you for a wonderful lunch and a tremendous experience talking all things deer and hot dogs with you. For those that don't know what a Sonoran hot dog is, can you describe it? How about we let the local expert describe it because there's so many ingredients, I'm afraid,

I might leave one out. Yeah, and there's a lot of diversity. Yeah, I recommended the best place in Tucson to get Sonoran hot dogs, and by happenstance, I live a mile away. So I was able to scoot down and join you all. But it comes in a larger kind of a football shaped bun normally that's cut on the top, not a regular hot dog bun.

The hot dog is usually wrapped in bacon. And then the bacon is fried so it's crispy on the hot dog. And then there's pinto beans, there's mayonnaise, there's mustard, onions, there's mayonnaise, there's mustard, onions, and then usually served with a couple peppers. I think that's probably the basis. But then you can have chorizo and cheese and all kinds of things added to that. But pretty delicious. I did manage to snap a picture of the schematic for a La Correta. Yeah, that's right.

It's jalapeno sauce, mayonnaise, mustard, grilled onion, bacon, tomato, hot dog, beans, steamed bun. I thought the grilled bun was one of the hallmarks of the Sonoran hot dog, but that's not correct. That's an extra. Yeah, steamed bun is what I consider the more typical. one of the hallmarks of the Sonoran hot dog, but that's not correct. That's an extra. Yeah. Steam steamed bun is, is what I consider the more typical come that it's steamed. So it's warm and a little softer.

Oh, that was a huge upgrade in the world of Sonoran hot dogs. So thanks, Jim. Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it. Thanks, Jim. All right. You bet. See ya.

Phil, uh, we're a little over time here, but I wonder you guys. Okay. I mean, yeah, we're over time. See ya Phil We're a little over time here, but I wonder you guys okay. I mean yeah, we're over time I don't have still have a segment left. I'm Cory cross that one out. I think we're gonna keep that one in the rip through it quickly If we're having fun you guys busy. Yeah, let's do it I mean, I just need to have to get some lunch in me before whatever is happening at one. Oh sure, this will be fast, I think, right? Do you have a jingle?

I do have a jingle. You should have led with that. We wouldn't have even questioned skipping the segment. Okay, let's hit it. Well, do you wanna say the name of the segment first? The segment is Two Truths and a Lie. Am I being upfront or is this bullshit? Two truths and a lie

Do you think I am pulling this out of my ass? to truth and a lie You know Cal must be really having a great time because before the show started He said he told you he's gonna give you five minutes of his time and here we are an hour he's a company man it's into it so much so that he didn't prepare for this he's a company man through I am having a great time but I was also told like these are the things that you're here for and we didn't we didn't get to them so I was we never I'm confused ever well one of the things was supposed to be two three of Senel I Oh, that's what Cory told you are you are prepared for it for this fun new segment

We're gonna go around the room and each tell two doesn't mean I've heard Each tell two truths and a lie about ourselves meat eater edition while the other two hosts try and figure out which one is a lie And this week we have a twist. It's gonna be the other three hosts because Cal is still here. Janus would you like to lead us off here? I sure can. Mine are it's very simple I didn't have anything prepared an hour ago or two hours ago and Cory gave me this idea is just to give you guys some scores of some animals that I've killed. Figure out which one is true which two are true and which one is a lie so my biggest white-tailed buck scores 137 inches my biggest bull elk scores

317 inches and my biggest mule deer buck scores 195 inches which one is a lie? The elk. Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on the elk. I'm gonna say the mule deer. These boys are correct. My biggest bull elk is around 305 inches.

I have killed a 137 inch white tail in Nebraska with our buddy Brody Henderson. I almost felt bad for a quick moment when I shot that buck But it's one of those instances that someone had to do some shooting And My biggest meal there buck I actually killed with our buddy Callahan here and it scores roughly 195 That was the most excited I've ever seen youannis be after he pulled the trigger fantastic he was Sprinting erratically across the mountainside. I like to make sure they're dead Cal

But it was without properly Knowing where the buck ended up. Yeah, he's that excited He was like off this side of the mountain and over there and just like bird dogging around it was cute as a button Back back when we were all younger he had extra points you know it was one of those kind of deals where like you look at him you go cows like what do you think about this one and all I saw was a couple kickers I'm like oh yeah Cal do you have two truths and a lie prepared for us that should I move on to Seth no I can whip one out. All right

I do have to say that the other there's a good quote There's like it was a one dough or two doughs on this slope and I was like, you know a good mule deer hunter Would just keep staring at these does And that bucks gonna show up eventually did so that was cool Okay, I have Bagged over time a black bear a mountain lion and You know a whitetail

So we had to pick one of those animals that you haven't bagged? Yep. I feel like because of our conversation yesterday, I know the answer. I'm gonna say mountain lion. I'm gonna say lion. Me too. Corey's not even talking. It's a lion. Yeah, I haven't killed a mountain lion.

I've been on quite a few hunts. Two trees and a lion. Are you packing a lion tag this year in your pocket? Yeah, I always buy them. Well, Seth? Alright, I've killed one book animal, meaning it scored enough to hit the record books. I poked a cow elk in the butt with my gun barrel, and I killed a turkey in my crocs.

It's not the turkey in the crocs. Hold on that when you poke the cow this I'm assuming she was still alive. Yeah, real live wild out there hunting poked a cow in the ass. I'm gonna say number one even though I don't remember what that is. Do you think that he has or has not killed a book animal? I think he hasn't killed a book animal because he's from Pennsylvania No, because I think the the croc thing is true and the poking a cow with the gun barrel is oddly specific But he could just be really good at this game I agree with you about the cut the turkey the croc turkey in the Crocs. Oh

Buddy has he killed a book animal? I think I would know about that if you did So I'm gonna go with the fact to say that Seth has not killed a boon and Crockett book animal Yeah, I mean Pope and young antelope is pretty darn achievable But I don't think he shot an antelope with your bow, have you? No. Yeah, we'll go with the book, book critter. Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately, yeah, you're right. That's pretty cool that you've poked a cow in the butt. Yeah, this past hunt season I was doing, it was opening day of rifle and had a cow elk come running past me and I

just gave a little poke in the ass as it went by so it didn't run me over and you were dressed as a cow elk at the time yeah smelled like one too yeah I was gonna ask if you did it in a little bit of emotion of self-defense it sounds like it that was the case yeah I just like it was just did it to keep it moving Uh-huh, I thought it was just gonna stop me in the dirt, but mmm. Yeah Well Randall, I'm doing a little improv because I feel like some of my clues in fact, I know That Cal knows one of my clues is false or it's true. It's true. So I'm gonna go with Shot a deer with my pants at my ankles caught a fish on a jug or shot a deer with a pistol I'm gonna go with the pistol that's a lie

We go with the pistol That's a lie Yeah, caught a fish with the jug is just Not very fun. So what would be the point of lying to people about that from Ohio? So unless he's trying to fool you that's the point. Yeah, but you know no money on the line What was the first one? Shooting a deer with my pants at my ankles and underwear. Well from our little, our time spent together in Mexico, I know that Randall is often in the field in that position.

So that's, that's a high probability that you've done that. I'm going to go with the pistol. Chats also've done that I'm gonna go with the pistol You've never saying pistol. I'm gonna go with pistol well It's catching a fish on a jug son of a gun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah shot my first deer with my pants around my ankles Okay, tell us about the deer that you shot with a pistol see I started with that as a lie but then I remembered I had shot a deer with a pistol because I'd shot it and it was still alive

and I walked out to go drag it back to the truck and it was still alive, so I shot it with a pistol. That doesn't count, shooting a deer with a pistol. All right, two lies and a truth. And I was gonna go with eating a guana, but Cal fed me that a guana so mmm. Yeah Sorry gang. I guess I screwed that game up. No, it's good. It's still you said my one truth didn't count Yeah, I think yeah, you're it's a great light. It's a great

I shot a deer with a pistol before too, but it was after hitting it with my pickup truck Oh, so would that that probably won't count either for those of you listening if You have access to a bunch of iguana tails and hindquarters Super Bowls coming up and they make pretty awesome Buffalo wings. Yes. Oh, hey, well that was one of the questions. I was gonna ask What's your favorite Super Bowl snacks to make with game meat I Enjoyed the iguana that same Super Bowl you also made a giant Chicken wing out of an elk shank. Yeah a buffalo chicken wing out of an elk shank. Yeah, which is quite tasty

Real tasty classic like red hot. Yeah, like a Frank's red hot wing So I sous vide the leg uh-huh to where it was edible didn't have any Frank's red hot. No, sous vide the leg to where it was edible. Didn't have any Frank's red hot yet in it. No and then drop the whole thing in the deep fat fryer. Get her all crispy and then you know tumble it around with some butter and some Frank's red hot. Sounds good. That was real tasty. I'm a classic nachos guy. Like to get a big big package of elk burger,

a little of the taco seasoning from the store, as cheap as you can find it, and spread out a big mess of tortilla chips, a little sour cream, cheese, hot sauce, crowd-pleaser, jalapenos, yeah. What do you do for cheese? Oh, just, uh, Western family fiesta blend. I like it. Why is it in a large quantity? Why is it that the cheapest taco seasoning packets taste the best? Food science. MSG.

Yeah, I think it's just MSG. I'll accept those answers. I'm a Rotel dip guy. Oh, yeah. You know, so I do a little, you know, nice thing about when you buy a giant chunk of Velveeta, that gets me three through three Super Bowls. Wow.

It doesn't go bad. It's expensive stuff, you know, those bricks of food that don't go bad ever. But yeah, little Velveeta Can of Rotel and then you know whatever half pound pound of also taco seasoned ground meat and Yeah, lovely. Yeah, I like to eat enough of that it gives me a little bit of a tummy ache No, are you are you dipping like a Frito in there or a standard tortilla chip or what? Usually tortilla chips hmm lovely If I have them, squirrel hot legs

are always good. And then just your typical jalapeno popper. With whatever. I've done it with doves, ducks, grouse. You can pop anything. Yeah, anything. White tail backstrap, whatever. Yep. Coo's deer backstrap. Phil, what do you got for us here?

Well, just first, Brian says he goes gator nuggets. Mmm. Oh, those are pretty good. Nuggets of any kind are welcome. Yeah, deer and dove poppers. That's what Chase likes. We did pheasant nuggets for Phil's kids last time we had to get together. That's right. Those are a big hit. Those are tasty. Yeah Let's do one. Let's wrap it up here. This is the longest episode of radio so far boy Really quick multiple questions about the gaming stream for conservation. I've been given pretty much. I've been given a green light. It's happening I'm very excited, but I also don't want to half-ass it So TBD on the date. I want to make sure that we can even though I want to bullshit and play video games I also want to raise a lot of money. Do you have a BD on the game?

Red Dead Redemption 2. Okay. Yes, you can Okay, you can do all kinds of cowboy stuff and hunt hunt animals in all kinds of ways so go fishing skunk ape customs Yes, really want to know what what he's customing With a K, so it could be anything anyway. Let's call it. That was great. Let's call it. Thanks for tuning in everybody This is delightful. We'll see you next week. Oh Oh before we wrap up, it is Steve's birthday next week.

So we're gonna have a very special birthday celebration for Steve live on media radio live. You're not gonna wanna miss it. Steve's hosting. There might be some cake, there might be some singing. There might be a gift exchange. Probably not the gifts though. Okay, on that note, sorry, really quick.

I'm stretching out this show. at the very top of the show. Randall, first of all, what do you mind sharing? What date your birthday is? October 3rd. OK, Spencer's an SOB because he wished you a happy birthday at the beginning of the show. And everyone was saying happy birthday to you, Randall. Everybody knows it's October 3rd. Everybody does.

Yeah, it's the same day that the first Peanuts cartoon was published. And it's one of the, you know, landmark days when the Berlin Wall Street came crashing down. All right, well that'll do it for today's episode of Media to Radio Live. Thank you, we're turning in. Hey American history buffs, hunting history buffs, listen up, we're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled The Mountain Men, 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John

Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the West represented not just unmapped territory but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the Mountain Man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the Mountain Men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as

dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white-tailed deer skin trade, which is titled The Long Hunters, 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain Man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre-order now wherever audio books are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History, The Mountain Men, 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Ronella.