The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 666: MeatEater Radio Live! All Hands for Public Lands!

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Hosts Ryan Callaghan, Brody Henderson, and Seth Morris call recently let-go BLM worker Ryan Schroeder, chat with David Willms about the state of the land-grab, learn some hot tips from listeners, and face the realities of methane beneath the ice with Bruce Kania of Floating Island International.  Watch the live stream on the MeatEater Podcast Network YouTube channel. Connect with The MeatEater Podcast Network MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey American history buffs, hunting history buffs, listen up, we're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition titled The Mountain Men, 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the West represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the Mountain Man era and what ended it.

We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white-tailed deer skin trade which is titled The Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, you can buy this wherever audiobooks are sold. Meat Eaters American History The Mountain Men 1806-1840 by Stephen Rinella. Oh, welcome to Meat Eater Radio Live. It's 11 a.m. Montana time.

And you're back in the Meat Eater studio. Joining me, I'm your host, by the way, joining me today, Brody Henderson. Hola. Seth Morris. Howdy. Lots of energy, keep it up guys. Corey Calkins. And Phil is running this whole gig as you already know.

Today, we have a very special Meat Eater Radio Live where we're focusing on a topic near and dear to all of our hearts, which is public lands. We're going to talk about state lands and federal lands and get a general idea of what the heck is going on out there in this crazy world. We are going to check in with an ex-BLM, a recently ex-BLM. The body's still warm folks.

BLM Rangeland Ecologist to talk about layoffs. Then we're gonna talk with our buddy, David Wilms, who is our go-to legal source for all things public lands. Then we're gonna have some fun with a hot tip off. And finally, we're going to wrap up with another guest who is the CEO of Floating Island International, International Bruce Kanya, who is going to talk to us about methane specifically in regards to the ice house explosion that we covered on the meat eater comm first before we get into all of this I guess we're gonna call this like Cal unleashed I just want to set the set the stage on on what

we're tackling yeah I actually made a drop for this if that's okay yeah I don't know if you're gonna like it or not but Oh yeah the music's perfect. What are you trying to say man? Whoa what was that at the end? That was system of a down. That's kind of a deep cut. So low ones hit me up. I was sitting in my office and heard Phil making this and I was just like, you know what? Just just Phil doing his thing in there. I'm not gonna be worried. I gave Chile a warning but not Seth. I probably should have given the whole office a warning.

So, you know that Mountain Tough Fitness guys used to be like my next-door neighbor where I live before they moved into their their new facility and I'm an early riser, right right and I had to tell those guys I'm like you know if you guys didn't play that type of music I'd probably come over and work out right I'm like can't do like BBC News or something like that yeah so we've been listening to a lot of a lot of feedback and tip of the hat here there are people who read the comments on the YouTube channel and reddit and all the other places and

including email that you send in so we recently did a it's a state of the union type of podcast that we always do with TRCP. We have a new president CEO at TRCP, Joel Peterson, who is a fine human. And the timing, the news cycle right now is very, very fast paced. So every, anytime you put something out, you risk it being dated by the time it actually releases, right? The gap between the recording time and the release time, a lot of things can happen. And we were in a spot where,

say we were like kind of speculating on if there would be any more federal layoffs at the time of recording. And by the time that recording came out, there had been a lot of federal layoffs. So we want to tackle that head on today. And I'll just tell you right now, public lands, access to public lands, access to public wildlife, those are absolutely core to meat eater, to everybody who works here, And they just shouldn't be screwed with, man.

And we're gonna get into this deeper with our first guest, but there's no slippage in those values here. And we care deeply about the stewards of the land who often sacrifice at low pay and very little thanks to go out there and clear trails and clean up, you know, government houses, those nice square government houses with the little pebble walls. They do a lot more than that.

And the drop toilets. Yes, a lot more than that. So hopefully we'll get into more of that. I would say, and fellas, please chime in here that, um, I don't think it's, it's unfair to say that there's like a general attack on public lands right now. And it is widespread. Well, it's coming from both the state side of things and the federal side of things. Um, and I, the only kind of disclaimer I would put in there

is like public lands as we know them. So right now with the layoffs that just recently went through like the group of people that those layoffs affected in Bureau of Land Management, US Forest Service land that we use heavily here in Montana and throughout the West. Those are the folks that are doing the trail maintenance and the general cleanup that you see covered in the news. It ticks me off that the scariest thing

that some of these news outlets can come up with is like So don't be surprised if there's trash at your campground when you show up. Yeah, I mean there's also habitat work going on research going on like It trickles down to every facet of hunting and fishing right like Everything and and other forms of outdoor recreation that are important too. I mean Look like camping rafting what whatever like they're it affects everyone. Yeah, like your off-road vehicle yeah stamp that you get like that goes directly to trails and campground maintenance

Yep, right. It's it's probably gonna be a little beefed if you're a ATV or single track rider and those trails aren't maintained and your campgrounds are, are, don't have to worry about trash blowing around because you're not going to be able to get into them, period. Um, so without further ado, I think, um, and like we want to get into how you can Wade into this this situation here certainly at the state level You have every right and ability to contact

all of your lawmakers from the governor to your state representatives to your congressional representatives and If you're concerned about this stuff, you absolutely should be writing in right like in the West I'll tell you that small town economies are greatly impacted by USDA Forest Service Bureau of Rec BLM employees That shouldn't just be about the West though. No. You know, cause back East, there are millions of people that live within spit and distance of national forests, national parks, you know, all kinds of

federally managed land. So it's, it's not just a Western issue. Yeah. And you can absolutely agree. Like we're based on having your cake and eat it too here in America, okay? You can agree on some things our elected officials are doing

and be diametrically opposed to other things that they are doing. And that is absolutely okay. In fact, it's completely normal. So when you call your elected representatives, when you hold their feet to the fire, you can say, Hey, I love what you're doing over here. Keep it up. However, what you're doing over here has giant negative impacts that you don't even understand. And you need to stop or you need to change, uh, the pace at which you're, you're pushing this stuff.

So, um, yeah. How'd your day go yesterday, Kyle? Oh, that's a good question. Yeah. So we did a rally for public lands at the Montana state capital, uh, Helena, Montana. Uh, I always like to point out when I go up there that, uh, behind Capitol Hill in Helena, uh, is a chunk of BLM. And my grandpa, he grew, grew up there at the base of that BLM chunk.

And that was his last trap line. No, it was on that chunk of BLM up above the Capitol. Um, big crowd there. Yeah. Loud crowd. It was a loud crowd. Um, you know, unfortunately we didn't see a whole lot of lawmakers in the room, but I guarantee you they could hear us. So we had some really killer, um, speakers and just a really good show of support, uh, for our public lands here in Montana, both state and federally managed.

So that was really cool. And, and gang, I gotta tell you, like showing up physically and being in these places when there's a call is really, really important. I mean, it makes a big impact. It's a very hard thing to ignore. I told the crowd yesterday that if I was a anti public lands representative, I'd be scared shitless of being in that room. Like, I mean, you're talking about some dedicated people and you look in their eyes and you just know this stuff's important and you shouldn't mess with it.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hard to replace that. So, uh, are you guys ready to get to our first interview here? Sure. All right, so Ryan Schroeder is a fella

that I've met a handful of times over the years, and real interesting story, but he caught old Dr. Randall Williams' attention the other day because he posted on Instagram about being laid off, and I think it's a story worth hearing so we'd like to get Ryan well there he is there I am can you see me guys yeah we got you awesome good to see you guys thanks for thanks for having me

on I really appreciate the time and and your willingness to talk about this so thank you where you at I am in Mancos, Colorado. So just between Cortez and Durango right now Yeah far southwest, Colorado Around I think hunting unit 72 71 and 7-1-1. So for those of Colorado folks, I know you Brody Yeah, so I'm gonna do my best to burn any spots. I've been through there a time or two. Just a time or two. Yeah. So yeah, thank you guys for having me on. What's the population of Mancos, Colorado?

Oh gosh. Are we including cattle in that population too? Or in mule deer? Oh gosh. I think Mancos is right about 1800 folks. Wow. Last I checked one. Yeah.

I just moved, well plus two now. I just moved here back in December from Missoula actually. So I saw you guys at me did your live when you came last year. Oh, thank you. So let's just get down to it. What made you go down the path of being a parasite on the government payroll? Oh, geez. Yeah. Well, to correct you first- That's what I see in the news. Oh, geez. Yeah, well, to correct you first. I love what I see in the news.

Yeah, I supposedly. Yeah, so I was, I don't know the right tensing to use because I was fired. I've never been fired before, but was fired on Tuesday. specialist, not a rangeland ecologist. Those are two different job series titles for the Bureau of Land Management here based out of the Trace Rios field office here in Dolores, Colorado. That's three rivers, Seth. I see. I got you. Yeah, I got you. Oh, I see. But yeah, so yeah, rangeland management specialist out of the Trace Rios field office, but also had duties with the Canyon of the Tracerias field office, but also had

duties with the Canyon of the Ancients National Monument. So that's just north of Cortez, Colorado. And so yeah, gosh, where to start? Why I got interested in wanting to work for the federal government and the Bureau of Land Management in particular. You know, I always wanted to serve my country. When I was in high school, I wanted to end up wanting to be in the Marine Corps or the Army. But I

ended up being medically denied when I was getting out of high school and wanted to go down that path. But still, like, was interested in agriculture, habitat, hunting, fishing, etc. And so I went to school at Purdue University, did kind of a generic natural resource environmental sciences degree, but got specialized in soils and vegetation, things like that. And I got introduced to hunting out, so I grew up in Indiana. So you know, corn, soybeans, agriculture, thickets with trees with good white tail populations and frog ponds for fishing.

But I had a friend of my dad's friend had grew up on a ranch out by Reid Point, Montana and took me out there hunting when I was like eight, 10 years, I think 10 years old and killed my first deer out there and said, Oh, I can see further than like around the next corn field and stuff so that always was trickling in the back of my mind and in high school went out hunting around Laramie and Wheatland Wyoming a lot for pronghorn that's 2013 pronghorn up there behind me out of Wheatland area and yeah it was just like wait people manage this stuff like I don't know, like, do people do anything with this?

Or can, like, it's not like row crop ag. I don't know what do you do other than ranch it and how does that work? So doing work at Purdue University, got introduced with a couple of land trusts with habitat work on restoring prairies and oak savannas. Then got a chance to work for the US Forest Service in the Bighorn National Forest out of Buffalo, Wyoming as a range tech as a seasonal position 2016-2017.

I thought it was chaos in 2016 or 2017 getting back to work with them. But that got me just so induced like this is range. Range isn't the top of the stove. Range is habitat work, is livestock, is wildlife, is this nexus of agriculture, conservation, and wildlife issues. Figuring out how do plants and soils and water and animals interact on the landscape. How can we manage it to achieve the objectives that we want out on the ground and do good habitat work to be able to have all these different things out on the ground and do all these different recreation, hunting, fishing, hiking, and also other extractive uses like livestock

raising is an extractive use. We've got mining, oil and gas exploration, etc. And so I ended up doing my master's at Colorado State University doing work funded by the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service in western Colorado out by Grand Junction and a couple of the national conservation areas over there as well as up north of Hayden, Colorado, northwest of Steamboat Springs in a beautiful area that I'm not gonna say the name of it. Don't say it. You know what I'm talking about. Teddy Roosevelt was there.

Yeah, so working in beautiful landscapes with amazing people who care about stewardship of our public resources. Cause like I said, I grew up in Indiana, I was surrounded by private land and got exposed to all the lands and resources that we all own as Americans. And just like, oh, these people do cool work and are doing good important work to steward our lands. And so did my master's at Colorado State, then got funding from the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service to do a PhD, started it down in New Mexico State University in 2020,

working on the Hornata experimental range down there, as well as working with the NRCS to develop a tool on the Web Soil Survey, a soil interpretation to help us better restore rangelands through active seeding and rangeland seeding activities. And so, been in academia, been in school for 11 years and working with agencies who get out and do work on the grounds, like I don't want to be in academia, I don't want to be on my computer as much as I have been the past so many years and my interactions with our public land stewards and the private people that we work with or that public land stewards work with just

maybe want to get in to do that hands-on on-the-ground work. Not being here is like oh I'm here the government to tell you what to do. I am here to help you solve problems, help us steward our national natural heritage for current generations and for the future from this multiple use mission that the different agencies have from Federal Lands Policy Management Act, FLIPMA and yes that's having those, that knowledge in rangeland ecology, soils, vegetation, etc. And when you talk about rangeland, right, like that term is particular to grazing allotments. It's not like rangeland for deer and elk, you're out there.

Exactly. Yeah. Like that NRCS funded, uh, reseeding project. That's to put more grass on the ground for, for cattle, for private enterprise. For that, but also just for keeping our lands and soils healthy for keeping our soils where they're supposed to be and managing for the watershed resource, managing for all these different resource ranges, such an interdisciplinary program and that, yeah, our mission or our project area, program area and range has been for first and foremost, because of the Taylor Grazing Act that was passed in 1934 to help solve some of the issues that had happened from the 1800s and westward expansion and the overgrazing of just open range. We now

have grazing back in 1934, soon enough it'll be 2034, geez. But to at least permit and authorize and have terms and conditions set out for private citizens to through a regulated way graze lot livestock, whether that be cattle or sheep, primarily in my field office and the field office I've been working with was primarily cattle, was primarily cattle, was to produce food and fiber for the American people on our public rangelands but do it in a responsible way, a balanced way to do, to look at other resources and make sure that we minimize conflict, mitigate and minimize negative environmental impact of this primary use that's you guys have talked

about before within multiple use missions of grazing as one of those primary tenants of a authorized use or a use on public lands. But it's so much more than just grazing and keeping grass on for cattle, it's for soil health, it's for wildlife habitat. I mean, we are here to advocate or we were, I don't know what the tents to use because I was fired so recently Terminated and it's not laid off. I was termination is how it is written in my termination letter

And can you I'm sorry Ryan to interrupt you there, but you know, we're hearing the terms Terminated layoff furloughed. What's the difference between? terminated and furloughed, what's the difference between terminated and furloughed? So furloughed is, so say March 14th, Pi day, we've got coming up, uh, the continuing resolution that, uh, we're currently acting under, um, ends. And so say if I was still, if I were to be furloughed, I would still be on paper an employee of the Bureau of Land Management and anybody who working for the federal government who is not a essential employee as designated as such would be not able to work, not permitted to work, can't touch a dang thing, your government phone, your email account, etc. But then once funding would be restored, they would be paid for what they did for the, they

would be paid and still stay on with the agency that they're working for. I, as of Tuesday, February the 18th, was terminated after less than 60 days of being with the Bureau of Land Management here in Colorado. By the end of the day on Tuesday, two hours after I got the notice from my supervisor, I lost access to my work email, I lost access to my work phone, I had to turn all of my badges and everything back in. The letter was actually dated for February the 14th. A lot of the other people who were terminated in this way. I was terminated because I was a probationary employee. I had less than a year in service. I had started on December 30th, 2024. Uh, it started on December 30th, 2024.

Um, and so after finishing, sorry, I mean, you're, you're a highly educated dude, motivated guide going, you know, learning a lot, you got a lot of credentials behind you, I mean, far more than I ever will if I'm being frank. But, um, they're just, they're just, they're just letters and it's just experience, so it's a school of hard knocks and whatever. Uh, so I mean, you're, you're going to find another gig, another job. They're just letters and it's just experience. So it's, I don't know, school of hard knocks and whatever. So, I mean, you're gonna find another gig, another job. I hope so, yeah. I hope to be reinstated.

I wanna get, like, I'm trying to appeal this to get reinstated because the reason that they used in my termination letter is like, apparently my skills and qualifications do not meet the needs of the department is how it is stated in my termination letter. Ryan, can I, like, I don't know if you can speculate or not, but what would, what do you see like high level, like easy to explain the impact of not having range managers on the landscape.

Yeah. Um, gosh, that's a big question. High level. So our primary focus in the range group is to use science and the law to administer grazing permits on public lands. So working with private citizens, like I said, and private ranches to graze livestock on public range lands. So working with private citizens, like I said, and private ranches to graze livestock on public rangelands. And there's a whole set of terms and conditions and a whole process,

administrative process that that goes through to make sure that we go through the NEPA process, the National Environmental Policy Act for it is a proposed action on public lands and could have environmental impact. So we bring in wildlife managers, recreation folks, hydrology, et cetera, whenever we go through and we renew fully process a grazing permit. And that's so, and to be able to adapt to whatever the conditions are out on the ground, these permits renew are supposed to be renewed

every 10 years or whenever a permateittees base lease expires. And so where there's also an option based upon I think a law passed in the 90s that we are legally obligated or we were the BLM is sorry, BLM is legally obligated to authorize or to issue grazing permits. And so there's a way to just renew the permit without changing anything, which is all well and good. But what if that land's not meeting land health standards? That's kind of what I was getting at. Like, is there a situation in which this would result

in not only degraded grazing conditions for cattle, but also degraded wildlife habitat for mule deer and elk and sage grass and like on and on and on. Yeah. So like, for example, we were a bit, I'm sorry, I'm getting fired up here. I'll calm down. I wonder why I'm fired up. So we, in my office, so it was myself and another new range management specialist who he had just started in October,

but had come over after two years with being a range management specialist in Nevada. And we were working up, in addition to our permanent range technician, prioritization plans to go do land health assessments and figure out and develop a prioritization strategy for the grazing permits that are expiring this year to renew them and fully process as many of them as we could but also do that you know no change in terms and conditions where it made sense. We have a two because the person who I and fill it or was hired for retired a year or two, it took the office at least a year and a half to fill my position. And there's a year, there's two years worth of backlogs

of land health assessments and grazing permit renewals that we were getting geared up to do this year. It was going to be 40, 30 more days or more days in the field, bringing out also our wildlife folks, our hydrology people, et cetera, in our interdisciplinary team that we have to have out in the field to look at land health is grazing a cause of if land health standards are not being met. If not, great. If so, how can that change be mitigated and go through that NEPA, the National Environmental Policy Act process.

It is down to one person, one range and management specialist and one range technician to try to fill that bat, that two years worth of backlog. I mean, with three of us, it was going to be a daunting task with two of them. And I like, they are the next ones on the chopping block, because we hear that this is not the end of what is to come. Well, and like to point out, like the other side of this is the is the quote unquote, consumer, right? Like, folks want those grazing leases badly, because they're the cheapest grazing lease you can possibly get. Right? It's like a $1.35 per AUM.

It's the one thing that has not changed with inflation and has not changed since 1996, about as old as I am. I'll be, I was born 95. There's a lot of people in this country getting their steaks from that land, so to speak. You know what I mean? Yeah. Steaks and their burger. Yes, sir.

And not just, not just beef burgers, burgers, but but venison elk. Yeah. Everything like and so we were working up we had new direction as of October to start prioritizing grazing permit renewals fully processed renewals in Gunnison sage grouse habitat because here over in Canyon of the ancient National Monument and up north at Disappointment Valley, Natarita area, there's a lot of, there's Gunnison Sage Grouse habitat and grazing permits in those areas that we were given direction from, from the last minute, or we were given direction from to begin prioritizing, catching up with land health assessments,

grazing permit renewals to be able to adaptively manage grazing permits or help work with the private permittees to adaptively manage to make sure that those species are not further imperiled by what's happening out on the ground. And so it's interesting, right? I mean, every program that you've mentioned has been interesting. I mean, every program that you've mentioned has been, uh, at minimum put on, uh, funding freeze. NRCS is, you know, that really, if you looked at NRCS, it, it wouldn't be disingenuous to call it the largest conservation program in the world. Not, not just the United States or North America, but like the world. Um, and that's something that, that helps out people on the private side of the fence tremendously. Um, just like we talked about

grazers right here. So, um, we got to get going. Um, just out of curiosity, and if you're not willing to share this, it's a little bit like, uh, looking at you with your pants down, but what, uh, willing to share this. It's a little bit like looking at you with your pants down, but what what were you getting paid as a new rangeland specialist? Yeah, so I was brought in as a GS-11 step one brand new federal employee. I was making about 73,000 if I would have 73,000 annually would have been my salary. Um, yeah. Yeah. So, um, and, and what, what's next at next for you? Told me earlier, it's rabbit season. It's rabbit season.

Here's wrapping up. Um, you know, I've been trying to figure out when to get used to some of the little leave that I had accrued over my short, less than 60 days, um, to figure out when to go down to hunt my javelina tag down in southern New Mexico. I think I might be able to do a little bit more planning to go down and hunt that tag. After that I just I want to get reinstated. I want to appeal this. I don't think this is right. I'm worried about the mission of I mean if I get if get, if I don't get rehired, so

be it. Keep fighting, man. I worry, I, you guys keep fighting too. Hold the line. This is, we need, this is important and this is not the end of it. And things need to, people need to know what is happening out on the ground. It's not just trash. It's not just whatever it is our habitat, our public resource, our natural heritage at risk for a mission that is supposedly changing that is not due to the public's will or at least not being played out in a public

process right now and I worry about what is to come next for my co-workers. If more people are going to get laid off, like they're already on a skeleton crew. What's going to happen if more people get terminated or people lose faith in the agency and go, what does that mean for the next? Um, that's what worries me. I, I'll be okay. I think, um, I, I don't know what this sets up for, for the future of our public resources and our natural and national heritage, um, and our stewardship of these lands. I, I, it's, it's hard to hear, man.

I think, um, I appreciate you coming on, uh, I appreciate you guys asking. Tremendously. And, and, uh, we'll, we'll keep sending you good thoughts and hope you do get reinstated. Um, you know, it's a good example of what's going on right now. Um, things are moving really fast.

Uh, and, and I think at the end of the day, people just need to understand that, uh, no matter how you voted the votes over. Right. What matters is what you do from now forward every single day. And it's absolutely, absolutely okay. And within your power to say, Hey, this particular thing, I do not agree with. Right.

So, um, thanks a bunch, thanks a bunch Ryan and keep me posted. Hopefully we'll have you back on with some good news at some point. We'll see. I guess I'm speaking in a personal capacity right now. Once if I were to get brought back on I have to run it by my soup. Yeah appreciate you guys have me on Brody. Seth, good meeting you guys. Phil. Thanks for talking to us. Thank you. I hate asking a fellow how much he makes, but when you're in a town of 1,800 people, that's a significant salary to remove out of that economy.

Sure. And I mean, there's more to it than that even, you know. Oh, absolutely. Hey, American history buffs, hunting history buffs, listen up, we're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition titled, The Mountain Men, 1806 to 1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain Beaver Trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the West represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure

some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white-tailed deer skin trade, which is titled The Long Hunters, 1761-1775.

So again, you can buy this wherever audio books are sold. Meat Eaters American History, The Mountain Men, 1806 to 1840 by Steven Rinella. So running a little bit behind schedule, but we're going to get to the hard facts of the law with David Wilms, who's our very next guest. He forgot his hair gel today. I did, no, I've got lots of it in there. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm just glad I have hair. So David, if it's all right with you, I'd love to just get an update on what the heck's going on with the Utah lawsuit and then Go from there and just kind of talk about where

this land transfer Sell-off movement is I can give you some feedback on the Montana side of things, but I know Wyoming Where you are a resident has some stuff in motion. And I think starting with, with Utah would be a great, great place. Sure. I'm happy to do that. And thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Um, so last time I was with you guys, uh, the Utah lawsuit was still active, right?

Meaning they had this case before the United States Supreme court. They were asking for the Supreme Court to accept jurisdiction of the case. And we were talking, we were speculating what might happen. Well, in January, the United States Supreme Court, in a 12-word order, declined to accept jurisdiction of the case, which all that really means is they said, it doesn't warrant us taking on what's

called original jurisdiction. It doesn't warrant us taking the case yet. They didn't say that there was no case there. They didn't say that they might not hear it again in the future. They just said in 12 words, not now. Case would decline to exercise jurisdiction. So because of that, that case goes away. But the way I've described this to people, to use a bit of a football analogy, which might be a little late now that we've passed the Super Bowl, but I think it works,

was that Utah threw their Hail Mary on the first play of the game, right, instead of the last play of the game. Meaning they took a run at the Supreme Court knowing very well that the likelihood of the court accepting the case was exceptionally low. And all that means now is if they want this lawsuit to proceed to go forward, they're gonna have to file it and go through the normal course and procedure, which means filing it in federal district court. Which is what we really expect will probably happen in the coming months. file it and go through the normal course and procedure, which means filing it in federal district court, which is what we really expect will probably happen in the coming months, weeks, months. Don't know how long it'll take, but would fully

expect that at some point we'll see a new lawsuit filed in federal district court. And then we're just operating under the playbook. Now the game's happening, to use that football analogy. We had the Hail Mary, it dropped incomplete in the end zone, and now they're going to the playbook and they're playing the game. And that's what I would expect would happen going forward,

is we'll probably see a new lawsuit filed in federal district court, and then we'll have to go through the normal process of motions to dismiss, motions for summary judgment, all the things that come with litigation. And is there any expected timeline on them supplying that to the lower court? And they can really do it whenever they want. When I say it could be weeks or months,

it really can be any time. I don't think I've seen anything publicly indicating when that might come. It's just when they're ready. I suspect they learned some things. They floated some legal theories, and I think some of those legal theories, folks were able to poke some holes in in that Supreme Court filing. And so, I could see them going back and making some changes to that complaint and maybe pleading this case a little bit differently. I don't know what it, I mean, the end result

would be asking for roughly the same thing, I suspect. But the legal arguments to get there, they might tweak those a little bit. So it just depends on how long it takes for them to do that and when they decide the timing is right for them to refile. Dave, is there any former, um, former examples of these kinds of cases where we can like kind of base what we think should happen in the next round? Not necessarily what will, but what should based on what's happened in

the past. You mean like, sorry to ask it another way, but you mean like an attempt to get to the Supreme Court that being denied? Or in a federal district court. Just another example of another lawsuit like this that turned out a certain way or is this just like who knows what's gonna happen I Like I view this as a I mean you don't know what's gonna happen although I would say that there's a lot of federal case law out there talking about the The ability of the federal government to own and manage federal lands. There's 200 years of precedent out there that

Utah is going to somehow have to explain away. I think we talked about it before, what the narrow angle they were taking was, which is that despite this 200 years of precedent, it was all those cases were doing was confirming that the federal government could manage and manage those lands exclusively, but that maybe it didn't actually address the question of, could they hold on

to those lands in perpetuity? And so that's the narrow question they're trying to force into the discussion. Man, there's a lot of case law out there talking about the federal government having the absolute authority to manage public lands and to own public lands. It's a tough, it's going to be a tough case.

One, one good thing that I see here is, um, when these things come up, they kind of boil over and they become so in the past, so socially unacceptable to mess with these big chunks of federally managed public lands that are managed on behalf of all of us and their America's playground. Plus it's where a lot of Americans make their living, both in the private sector and in the public sector. We're seeing efforts in several states, states that have joined the the lawsuit on on behalf of Utah and bills being introduced in different legislative sessions and and to me like the positive there is being able to say like,

Oh, that's the person that we need to have a good conversation with because they are going to be on the wrong side of history. So I kind of like when this stuff pops up in a way because it flushes out folks with bad ideas. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I also think there's the timing of this discussion is perfect. So I don't know if you've talked about this or seen this, but yesterday. Colorado college released a conservation in the West pole.

They do this poll every year and it's there. They're polling voters in the West, particularly the inner mountain West, on a host of conservation issues. And one of the questions that they were asked was about transfer of lands from the federal government to states. And 67% of respondents oppose that across the West

in the aggregate. And in Utah, it's 57%. So even in Utah that's leading the charge on this, 57% of the voters, it doesn't matter political party, oppose transfer. And so to your point of these bills coming up in state and seeing who's sponsoring them, who's behind the bills,

I think that matters because the public doesn't want to see this happen. Right? This data is, like I said, just released yesterday, which confirms the poll from last year and the poll from the year before, and you can go back and look at polls over time. It's pretty consistent.

The public doesn't want wanna see federal lands transferred. There's an accountability piece here, an opportunity, an educational opportunity and accountability opportunity in some of these states. Yeah, and who holds people accountable? Voters, you got it. That's right, that's right. So what's happening in Wyoming, David?

What isn't happening in Wyoming? Jeez. So I can talk about a couple of the things. So there was a bill and this one, sorry, excuse me, a joint resolution. And this one actually died recently, but it made it pretty far on the Senate side, which proposed transferring all federal lands in the state

to the state, including Grand Teton National Park. So everything except Yellowstone. And that did ultimately die in the Senate on second or third reading. I think it was, I mean, it was a narrow, narrow margin. Then you have a couple of others. There's been a bill there to, and this one, I believe, is still alive. And it would require, if you're a private landowner, you own your own property, and you want to sell that property, and the buyer that's interested in that property is the federal government. Under this bill, the state legislature would have to approve that sale. You could not sell your private land

to the federal government without the state legislature's approval. And that bill, to my understanding, is still alive. And it's rooted in this concept of the state wanting to have a no net gain of federal lands in the state. And then there's one other thing I'd mention in state, and this one's not a bill, and this one's pretty quiet. And this is, like I mentioned this

because it's something I think people should be aware of because it could happen in any number of states. But I'm sure you've talked about this before on your podcasts, and I'm sure listeners know, there was a parcel of land in Grand Teton National Park that was owned by the state of Wyoming that late last year was sold to the park service for 100 million dollars. 640 acres section that was you know bordered on, I think it was on two sides by the park service, one side by the National Elk Refuge

and one side by the National Forest. So it was just transferred to the federal government, which was a great deal for Wyoming to get $100 million out of it. And it was a great deal for the Park Service to ensure that that land wouldn't be sold or subdivided or developed. Now the state wants to package that $100 million and an additional, I can't remember

the exact number, $48 or $50 million from a sale that occurred about 10 years ago of another parcel in the park. And they want to put a proposal, and in fact, I think they may have already submitted the proposal to the Bureau of Land Management to purchase 10,000 acres of BLM land in Northeast Wyoming with that money. And I think that's pretty quiet. I don't think there's been a lot of press about that. And it's something I note because there is a process under the Federal Land Policy Management Act

for transferring federal lands or selling federal lands if it's in the national interest. And I suspect there's going to be a pitch that this sale would be considered in the national interest. It's an acreage that's large enough that it would require notification to Congress. But I don't think it requires approval of Congress. It's one of those where you provide a notification to Congress, and if Congress, if one chamber of Congress doesn't oppose within 30 days to the transaction, then they can move forward with it. Now there are other things that have to happen.

They've got to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act, probably have to do an EIS. It could be environmental impact statement. It could be years before that happens. But it's an example of using existing processes and something kind of behind the scenes to effectuate pretty significant land transfers. And I think, I think that's something that everybody needs to be aware of, like a land transfer sales of, of publicly managed ground, they, they do occur.

And then they have for a long time. And, and sometimes there's some gains as well um but everybody needs to be aware that that They can weigh in on those they have a vested interest in saying whoa that doesn't work for me Or this does and and they can frame it in a way. That's not It's not like a seizure, right? Like it's kind of like willing seller, willing buyer

type thing, like they can frame it that way. And, you know, it's harder to fight that I think. No, absolutely. Absolutely. You want me to hit you with some Montana stuff, David? Yeah, and then I might punt it right back to you to answer it. Well, I mean, things that I think people should know about, right? So as we talk, the debate on land

transfer is, sorry, Brody's got a party in his pants over here. The debate on land transfer always edges towards, well, the state will manage it better. And I kind of kick that back and say well, it's not actually about management The fear is that the state will have to Sell these lands if they were to actually get ownership of them for a bunch of reasons most most of them are would be just Tackling any sort of budget deficits that would come up in the future. So right now in the state of Montana we had a, and I feel strongly that most of our politicians really know that land transfer, land sell-off,

reducing public land, public access, is not something that's gonna get you elected. But we did see a Montana state funded, i.e. the taxpayer funded program get put into place this year that would assess all state lands and identify lands to sell. And then right now we have, what is it? HB 379, House Bill 379, which would essentially just

streamline the process of selling state lands. And then most recently, and this kind of goes into the social side of things, like our governor was just quoted in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece that is very land transfer, privatization adjacent, but just the fact that he's quoted in there makes me nervous, right? And it's this I this

Conglomeration of state lands and federally public federally managed public lands are the same and And in a lot of ways, it's like apples to kumquats, right? Like we're not in the same ballpark where they're very different and Then on top of that we have a bill that hasn't seen the light of day yet, but I think it is one of those things that, uh, hasn't quite gotten out into the light because they're afraid of the social repercussions. Um, rep Tommy Millett of Marion, Montana has LC 2912, which is a draft, but it would be supporting Utah's lawsuit. So straight up support of land transfer going

through the Montana state legislature, which hasn't been there. We haven't seen it yet. But all of this to say, on the federal side of things, we're dealing with some very challenging times regarding our public lands. And that those challenges are going to have repercussions in the way that we experience public lands right now. The same stuff that we've been talking about bathrooms campgrounds

Road maintenance trail maintenance Down to Ryan that we just talked to is like It's possible that our rangeland That create, you know tall grass makes fat cattle, but it also makes, you know, awesome horn growth on big gnarly mule deer bucks, right? It's possible that just that soil and rangeland could be affected, like down to that level. At the state level, we're seeing movement

to acquire slash dispose of public land. What's your sense of the landscape right now? Yeah, I mean, you summed it up pretty well. There's, I would say some antagonistic behavior in various states, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona are right at the top of the list from the state level pursuing policies that would encourage federal land transfer. I think you also have to look to what's going on

in DC as well. The things that have happened or the things that haven't happened yet but could. And it's sort of a, this would be a call to say, Hey, keep your eyes out for some of this stuff. You might have heard, you know, everybody's probably seen news reports about, you know, reconciliation and what it looks like for pursuing the president's policy agenda and getting through this reconciliation process and getting tax cuts made permanent. I'll use that example because that's the one that's directly correlated here. You know, he had the 2017 tax cuts during his first presidency and he wants to make those permanent and maybe add some additional cuts. And when you have tax cuts, you have to be able to pay for that lost revenue. You have to offset that revenue. And one of the ideas that I've seen

floated around is using this, I think somebody estimated $200 trillion asset that is our federal lands, using some of those to help offset the, like selling those to offset the tax cuts. I don't know if that'll make it in there, but those conversations are certainly happening behind closed doors. Well, there's precedent for that at the state level, right? Like there are plenty of states that don't have any state-owned public land

because they sold them all to. Every single state has less state land than they started with. Right. And they use that to do whatever, fund the government. So it's almost like taking that to the national level, right? Yeah, I mean, at the state level, the difference here is at the national level, right? Yeah, I mean at the state level, the difference here is at the state level, all of these states received these parcels of land

and were constitutionally obligated to maximize the revenue off of those acres. And the maximizing of the revenue off of those acres sometimes meant selling those. I mean the state of Utah still has, I think, every six months, they hold sales of state trust lands. And the idea is you maximize the revenue for your public schools and hospitals and universities, depending on the state and the Constitution. So there's this constitutional obligation that has led to the selling off of a lot of that land estate. You don't have that obligation at the federal level. So it's a little bit disconcerting

that those that we're now talking, I'm not gonna call it mainstream. I don't think it's mainstream. I think most people even at the federal level in Congress oppose this idea of selling off the federal estate or transferring it Well, you know what's interesting though David is if you look at like Utah is a great example Like if you look at the revenue generated

You know Utah like taxes As most states do right they tax oil and gas extraction mining in a much different way than the the feds do and like the income received through extractive industry on state land in Utah is significant. So like you know I don't know much about anything. My life's as much of a mess as the next person, but I don't see how it makes sense to sell off that land. Like it's like mailbox money into the tunes of billions of dollars.

Well, you pointed out one big thing, right? Like the federal government isn't required to manage public lands to generate revenue. They do generate revenue. They sell oil and gas. They have grazing leases. And your last guest highlighted the $1.35 in AUM the state. The state is required to make money off of it. As much money as possible, which is why it costs in a lot of places 1,000% more to graze on state land than it does on

private land. Why oil and gas royalty payments to the states are higher on state land than they are on federal lands. Because they are required to generate that revenue. So, the state is required to generate that revenue. They're not required to manage lands with multiple use in mind, including recreation and hunting and angling and conservation and all of the things that go into multiple use management. It's different. The state's systems are just different. And so if you had these transfers,

they're going to be managed differently than they are currently managed under the federal system. And when, I mean, here's one thing that I was faced with. So I used to work, as you know, I used to work for the governor here in Wyoming, the prior governor. And when we were faced with questions about whether we should support public land transfers,

one of the big reasons we opposed it was the cost of fighting fire would have bankrupted the state. We couldn't afford to do it. You know, it was so unbelievably expensive and so important to our states to have fire crews and equipment and everything out there combating these big wildfires. They're just different systems. And so this idea that we'd use federal lands to help pay for tax cuts by selling them either to either to private landowners or to, uh,

to States, you know, it's so short-sighted. Like the impacts on that would, would be pretty, pretty catastrophic. Hard to even hard to describe. Well, yeah. And I think anybody who's trying to get a mortgage in a Western state right now understands that holy cow, this land just keeps going up and up and up. So, uh, David, I'd love to talk to you more, but I am running this horribly over time.

You are way behind. I can tell you. Cal unleashed. Yes. Yes. All right. Uh, Dave, thank you so much for coming out. Uh, where, where can folks weigh in?

On which thing? On all of it. Like if you want to be a public lands advocate right now, what's your top two? I will tell you if you're in one of the states we talked about, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, Utah, you'll reach out to your local legislator, reach out to your state representative. Send notes to the governor's office. Governors have the power of the pen on the veto, right, when some of these things come through if they pass. So reaching out to your local elected officials is really important. On some of this stuff on the federal level, reaching out to your delegation, your congressional delegation, is going to be really important as well, especially as it gets closer and closer to this budget reconciliation process.

You know, there are going to be other bills, you know, like using federal lands to build homes, like to use it for housing in places that don't have housing. That's a big debate that has to happen, but keep your eyes out for that, too, and contact your local representatives and tell them how you feel about that. I can tell you that Conservation of the West poll has data about that, and most people overwhelmingly don't want to see their public lands sold for housing projects either. So elected officials are elected for a reason, right, to represent you. and the only way they are representing you is if you tell them what you think. That's right, that's right.

And I'll tell you, there's nothing about the layout of Boz Angeles, Montana that makes me think that the people who built this place are gonna do it better on public land. I'm not gonna argue with you on that. Alright thanks a bunch David. Appreciate it. Alright, Gag, I apologize for running so high. Phil, do you want to do listener feedback right now? Here's the convenient thing, Cal, is that are you surprised that the live chat has pretty much devolved into an all-out brawl That's kind of toned down a little bit But you know yeah

I would say there are some people who are level-headed and just having a conversation and other people who Need to get their shit together and grow up. I had I had to ban someone for name-calling so oh so you know Man you can't be a good advocate if you lead off by telling somebody they're a jerk And then you're like, but you should listen to me Just the world doesn't work that way. Anyway, I hope it's the last time I have to do it But yeah, we got a couple of let's do a couple fun ones, right? Yeah, we're having fun today Let's see Favorite February outdoor activities you guys have anything specific

before turkey season gets going and the transition period? It's been a tough one. From Caleb Tucker. Ice fishing. Yep. It's been a tough snowy cold. But even that just, I haven't drilled a single hole through the ice this year. I think it might go this weekend. It's been hard hardly get motivated this year and some reason. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I mean the skins frickin fantastic. Yeah, you got this snap coming up. It's just yeah Yeah. Yeah, I like shooting guns a lot this time of year to make sure everything's dialed in Yeah, hard to find a spot to lay down. That's true. That's true One more cow, I know you're if you're a frequenter Seth you are too Jordan's going to Hawaii tomorrow He's wondering which islands

Word word you guys on I'm sure you visited multiple But do you have any sort of favorite islands favorite spots on certain islands for certain activities? You know, the big island is is big. Yeah, so there's a lot of diversity know the big island is is big yeah so there's a lot of diversity every every island has has a diversity but you can get into all sorts of different stuff on the big island and I'll tell you nobody's gonna stop you for shooting a goat they've got they've got plenty big islands cool because you can go from like desert to rainforest to sweat in your ass to freeze in your ass yeah yeah it's a wild place it is it is it's it's really cool you know did get

into like the axis deer you're gonna have to get over to Lanai or Maui which super super awesome and certainly love the people over there so best best way to do it is get over there explore and and and make new friends right on cool that that's all I've got right now let's's keep it moving. Sounds good. Okay, keeping the fun going. Listener Hot Tip Off? Oh wait, we're doing Hot Tip Off. Yeah, Hot Tip Off.

What's that face? Don't use scoff. There aren't any words that rhyme with off. H-O-T-T-I-P-O-F Let's all do a Hot Tip Off. H-O-T-T-I-P-O-F. Let's all do a hot tip-off. Brody, I'm enjoying your face.

That's a great one, Phil. Thank you. Yeah, I don't know, Phil. I gotta do some more modern stuff, Brody. I can't be stuck in the 70s. I learned so much. I learned so much. I learned so much. Like part of me knows that that's a popular song somewhere. There's no part of me that knows that.

It's got the stink on it. All right. So ahead of time, we asked you amazing folks, listeners, watching folks watching at home to send in a hot tip off to radio at the meat eater.com We have some molten hot tips sent into the inbox, but we painstakingly Had narrowed down to just two submissions for this week's listener hot tip off Here we go Branton fire

Welcome to another hot tip off coming to you from 20 Below Minnesota. No deer hunter should enter the woods without a roll of toilet paper. Not only is it great for those early morning gas station burritos, but you will find no better tool for blood trailing than a simple roll. As you go, mark your blood with a piece, hang it on a tree branch, throw it on the ground wherever you can see it. If you lose track of that deer, you can always look back at your breadcrumbs to see their direction of travel. Not only is it highly visible, but it's biodegradable. It'll be gone in the next rainstorm and you never have to go back and pick it up.

Use toilet paper to help you find your next deer. Richard Tchaikowski! Welcome to another Hot Tip Off. My name is Richard coming at you with this week's hot tip. If you've ever spent any amount of time outdoors in the cold, you know keeping the feet warm is always a struggle. I was a dog sled guide for four years and keeping the toes warm was always a battle. So a friend taught me this. Take a little bit of cayenne pepper and you're just going to sprinkle some on your toes and then your socks. This is going gonna act as a vasodilator and it's gonna keep

your feet warm all day. This stuff works pretty much until you wash it off. I'm not a fan of how toe warmers feel in my boots, never got into the heated socks and all that jazz, so this stuff is an awesome cheap alternative to keep the feet warm. This whole jar cost me four dollars. If you're first time using it, don't go dumping a whole jar of cayenne on your feet. Just sprinkle a little bit, see how it works for you, and go from there. But try this out, get out there, enjoy toasty toes all year long. All right! All right, so here's the fun part. We are gonna vote on who won the hot tip off the winner is gonna get this Mool tree

Cell cam Seth you got a lot of experience with stuff like this. What are your thoughts here with the the Moultries? Yeah. Oh, they're sweet um, I don't use them a whole lot, but I liked, I like, I, we, I've went up in, uh, um, Alaska, just looking over things at the shack. Oh yeah. So you're, you're like a human surveillance plus anything interesting. Yeah. I get a lot of deer on there and it's just cool to see what's going on up there.

Well, like when I'm not. Yeah. Darn right. Love it. Yeah. Uh, hot commodity. So, uh, boys, we're going cayenne pepper or TP. They kind of, they're kind of related, which is interesting.

Also, I couldn't tell if, uh, Richard was like messing with us or if that's like a legit thing, he threw in basil dilator. Yeah. I have seen legit. I heard about it before, but I'd forgotten about it. I'm going to go, well, if that's the case, I'm gonna go with Richard because my feet freeze all the time. I struggle with it.

I'm going with Richard too because even if it doesn't keep your feet wet, you got some seasoning for your meat when you kill something in your pack. Yeah. It's not, same could be said for the TP. Like, it's not a, if your primary focus is blood trailing, it's good to have it in there. Mm-hmm

No matter what but I think brain is great I was just the whole time I was thinking what if it's real snowy out you can't see that thing Yeah, yeah, but then you'd be able to see the blood in the snow anyway, I guess Yeah, I'm sticking with Richard all right Richard Congratulations, you got an edge to real tree mobile cell camera. Congrats. Seth Morris approved. Yeah, you'll phone with it. All right, gang. So our last interview of the day, Bruce, it's been a long time since you logged on, I'm sure. I appreciate your patience. Hopefully you don't

think that this is some kind of cockamamie show that has no professionalism to it. Now, I think you guys are doing fine. In fact, enjoying the process here. First time, you know, with you at least, but yeah, looking forward to a visit. Awesome. What is Floating Island International? We, first of all, we're based here in Montana, outside of Billings on a place called Shepherd on the Yellowstone. And go Phillies. We're an invention company.

Uh, we focus around environmental service, uh, product technology, including a floating Island called the biohaven. So that's been our primary business since 2005. Today, there's maybe 12,000 islands all over the world. Well, that sounds like an entire podcast on its own so I'm gonna rain myself back in here You how did this work? Did you get in contact with us over the the methane ice house explosion? I did I read that article and It I did. I read that article and it touched me real directly because for the last six years we'd been researching aquatic methane. And today we have developed a data compendium.

If anybody out there wants it, would like to do background on this topic, just send me an email, info at FloatingIslandInternational.com, and I'll provide it. The bottom line here is that if you remember back, what, 30, 40 years ago, harmful algae blooms were a rare thing. Water was in reasonable shape, although I think Cuyahoga River catching on fire, stuff like that, you know, still happened. But since then, we've had this incredible increase in harmful algae blooms and other forms of aquatic vegetation that can grow explosively, and other forms of aquatic vegetation that can grow explosively, mostly connected with fertilizer, you know, agriculture. But today, even healthy lakes are experiencing some of these harmful algae blooms. And that organic material, when it does ultimately die, settles

into the bottom, becomes sludge, no oxygen in the sludge. That's where methane occurs. So just real quick, Bruce, what you're talking about is like agricultural runoff into bodies of water that bring like a load of nutrients that then create a massive explosion in plant growth. Yeah, anything organic that ultimately results in sludge buildup on the bottom of a waterway. And typically if this occurs over in a deep water setting, it's even more likely to result in methane. The, you know, you're looking at here a scene of a floating island, right here at Shepherd, actually, on our research reservoir called Fish Fry Lake.

But in that instance, the island is about three feet thick. We walk on it, we work on it, about three feet thick. We walk on it, we work on it, we rigidified the top of that island, so plants aren't happening there. But if you look, you'll see a native form of freshwater sponge that did colonize the island. I didn't even know we had a form of sponge here in Montana, but we do. And it's a filter feeder, it's helping clarify the water. Of course the fish love it, they love the shade, all that. Boy, I was just getting my mind into a totally different frame right now. This is awesome stuff.

So in your interpretation, like what happened that day on the lake? Well, you know, I can't be a hundred percent. There's other potential explanations, but from what I understand is that there was a surge in organic material in the form of leaves that blew into the lake, and they may have been the ultimate organic material that cycled into methane. But with a lid of ice over the lake, that methane, as it ebulates up in bubble form, it can collect under the ice. So if you open a hole in that in the wrong spot, you can have a flume of methane ebulating up through the ice. And if you're in a contained setting like an ice hut, and there's any kind of ignition source, all you have to be is a half of 1% methane in the atmosphere, 5,000 ppm, you know, technically as 5,000 parts per million to flash. And that may have

been what happened there. I do know this, that this phenomenon of methane associated with aquatic sources is the single largest source of methane occurring on the planet. Half again more methane comes off of water than comes from oil and gas. Hey, Bruce, what, like, as far as ice fisherman goes, like what kind of lake body of water is something like this more likely to happen? Like I'm assuming like a large body of water with clear water, rocky bottom, like probably not as big of a risk? I think you're right on. If you, you know, high mountain lake or some place as far removed from nutrient loading, you know, would be relatively safe. You can still have under unusual circumstances a buildup, but a buildup of methane. But the point is that in a

eutrophic or hyper eutrophic water body, that's where you're going to have a lot more of that organic buildup that results in thick layers of sludge. Like we have a reservoir here not far from, where sludge deposition is over 80 feet deep. That will be a methane factory. That's that like that when you get that real black smelly mud on the bottom of a pond or whatever, that's a problem. Great point. Methane is colorless and odorless, but it's usually accompanied by hydrogen sulfide, which is the

deep swamp biogas that you, most of us have experienced at some point, walking in the muck or whatever. So if you smell that, be alert. You might very well be in a situation where lots of methane is occurring. So Bruce, if I was to punch a hole in a lake somewhere where this could happen, other than like the smell, is there anything else that could, you know, show signs that there could be methane under the ice? Do you have a cigarette in your mouth? No cigarette. Okay.

But I'm getting ready to light my little buddy heater. Well start by looking at the ice. If you see bubbles in it, big bubbles especially, then be alert to the fact that they could be, it could be methane. Yeah. But if the ice is murky and cloudy and you can't see through it, that's an indication that light isn't making its way through the ice. This methane only occurs in the absence of oxygen. So if you've just drilled a hole over a deep point in the lake and you've got a, if you're, you know, just drill the hole over a deep point in the lake

and you've got a fish finder, if you can identify fish on the bottom, right against the bottom, that's a good sign that you're not anaerobic, you're not without oxygen. You're not in a methane hotspot. In fact, today there's, there's a sonar technology that can actually. Work through the ice. And that would be ideal. I mean, looking and verifying whether you got fish on the bottom or not before you punch a hole. Yeah. Yeah.

The. That would be the way to go. whether you got fish on the bottom or not, before you punch a hole. Yeah. Yeah, that would be the way to go. But ultimately be smart about it. Look at the ice, let it tell you what's going on. You've got clear ice and maybe some bubbles, but not many. You're probably in good shape. The fact that light is getting through that ice means that there's still oxygen being generated by the green algae that occurs within the water, the green phytoplankton.

There are good forms of algae as well as negative ones is the message there. Kind of like our political discussion. Bruce, thank you so much for being on. I'll let you know and everybody else that there is a GoFundMe, what is it? Or it's a Give Send Go set up for the family of the recent ice fishing accident in Vermont. Joel Shepherd and his daughters, Kaylee and Emily

at givesendgo.com forward slash shepherd family. If you got a couple of bucks to push their way that that'd be great. And then Bruce also, my mom's just down the road from you out there in shepherd. So yeah, this spring, I'm going to come pestry and go take a look at this. Island. Oh, big time. I'll tell you what, uh, I had, uh, my brother-in-law who had never caught a fish, he was here last September. He's from England and it took him fishing with this monster big surface lure. And I thought, well, yeah, it should be fun. Anyway, he gets the fling his big playground.

Really caught two bass between four and five pounds in the space of an hour and a half. This guy's never caught a fish. That's enough Bruce. That's enough. I like the sound of that. Hey, thank you so much for being on Floating Island International. If you have any questions for Bruce and want to learn more, go to floatingislandinternational.com, correct? Yep. Thank you guys. Have a good day. Thanks Bruce correct? Yep. Thank you guys. Thanks Bruce. Thanks Bruce. Thank you. Bye.

Love that. That's awesome. Phil, you want to do another round of, you know, we have gotten a lot of questions. Like we did get one regarding the video game stream. It is happening. I just don't have, I don't have a date yet cause I want to make sure that's fun for people to watch,

not just fun For me, so but they keep your eyes posted it will happen this year at some point. Thanks Thanks for catching up a lot of people say they're gonna try the cayenne pepper trick Today didn't let us know how it worked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you should write right in before Seth dumps it on its on his feet Oh, yeah, there was a running joke about whose mustache is better Seth's or cows. Do we have an in-room consensus? Cal cows is more seasoned. I think you're talking to two guys who'd Probably don't care that much. Yeah, Michael is asking how trapping is going. Uh, haven't been trapping I Seth is asking how trapping is going. I haven't been trapping. I like to do a lot of my trapping in either the earlier parts of the winter or in the spring for Beaver.

Yeah, Beaver get going. Right now everything is just so frozen and covered in snow. My hands hurt. Pine martin trapping would be great right now if you had a snowmobile and you know, could get out there, but not doing much right now. Travis is also asking if you'll be back on the Montana Walleye circuit anytime soon. I wish. I wish.

If I get time this summer, I'll do some tournaments, but I just don't have, I'm always gone. Yeah. Just gone too much. Hard to get a rhythm. Yeah. For sure. For sure. I got an update here. If folks are interested in helping out, um, some of our. Uh, former federally employed stewards of the land, uh, old doc,

Randall Williams sent me a go fund me, uh, for, uh, Rosalie. And, uh, Rosalie is, is, was just recently laid off. She had just switched jobs in the Forest Service. So she was in that probationary period, even though she's been a Forest Service employee for a long time, but she's two months before her due date and just lost income as well as insurance. And I believe Cory and Brody, you guys can probably talk about the importance of insurance when when mom's about to calve out. Yeah, I wouldn't. You need to not say that. What? Insurance? No, no, that last part. Find another way to put that Cal.

You've got a serious girlfriend, you need to take that thing more seriously. So anyway, if you check out GoFundMe, there's a support Rosalie GoFundMe and folks could definitely benefit from a couple extra bucks on that one. Outside of that, gang, remember to come see us at Pheasant Fest. That's coming up here in March in Kansas City. That's the annual PFQF annual gathering. Always a really fantastic opportunity to get a bunch of people in the room and get just hit over the head with really good conservation work. I'm guarantee you there's going to be a lot of NRCS Farm Bill talk during the Pheasant Fest this year. That Friday, March 5th, I'm gonna be joining

Kansas BHA out in DeSoto, Kansas for just kind of a big open to the public roundtable, let you know about what BHA and Kansas BHA are working on. And then Sunday at Pheasant Fest, joining Pheasants Forever plus the North American Grouse Partnership to talk about this incredibly awesome program regarding endangered species called the Lesser Prairie Chicken Land Owner Alliance.

And Lesser Prairie Chicken Man, fantastic game bird that the mountain men folks, they used to eat so many of them, they'd get sick of. And lesser prairie chicken man, fantastic game bird that, you know, the mountain men folks, they used to eat so many of them, they'd get sick of them. And now they're on the endangered species list and that happened on our watch. Lots we can be doing about that. And that goes into saving America's grasslands.

Outro fellas who, I think we just need to hit it again like if you're invested in your public lands that in absolutely no way puts you cross ways with any administration that's your right as an American citizen. Yeah, stop dwelling on the results of the election and dwell on what needs to be dealt with now. That's right. Yeah, and there's a lot of folks out there like myself who like a lot of what the current administration is doing. But when it comes to their stance on federal lands, it's just like a no-go.

Yeah, you get to say, hey, pump the brakes. Like what you're doing over here. So like it's okay to like what they're doing and it's okay to not like what they're doing Yeah, it's just not okay to sit on your butt and do nothing if this stuff matters to you If you do that, don't don't write in anymore I hope you enjoyed the show this week. I know we covered a lot of heavy stuff But we you know, we're right here with you. This stuff means a heck of a lot to us.

I know it means a heck of a lot to you, which is why you watch these fishing and hunting oriented things. So we're going to stay on top of it as much as we can. Please stay in touch and we will too. So thanks again. We'll talk to you next week. Hey American History Buffs, Hunting History Buffs, listen up, we're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series.

In this edition, titled The Mountain Men, 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain Beaver Trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the West represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what

clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white-tailed deer skin trade which is titled The Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, you can buy this wherever audiobooks are sold. Meat Eaters American History The Mountain Men 1806-1840 by Stephen Rinella