The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 683: Massaging The Heart With Pastor Yates

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Pastor Shane Yates of Task Force Heroes, Janis Putelis, Austin "Chilly" Chleborad, Phil Taylor, and Corinne Schneider.  Topics discussed: The military CV that goes on and on; the important work that Task Force Heroes does for the veteran and first responder community; showering in love and massaging the heart; knowing the rules of where you are; more Chetiquette; what makes a good street cop; being with them; recalling experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan; suicide rates; the importance of having healthy coping mechanisms in dealing with trauma; how the outdoors can help heal us; what’s our hope hooked to?; spiritual resiliency; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Turkey season is here and it's time to break out those calls Every serious turkey hunter knows every bird is a little different. You never know what will get them going You may need a trusty old box call Light purrs from a pot call or maybe some sweet yelps from diaphragms to seal the deal on that old gobbler But sometimes the hardest part isn't calling them in it's finding them in the first place That's where our locator calls come in. From crow calls to owl hooters, we've got everything you need to get those shot gobbles out of those old toms unwilling to give up their position.

Get fully geared up this season with the best tricky calls in the game. Check out the full lineup at felpsgamecalls.com and make every call count. count. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwear-less. The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything.

The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. Joined today by my neighbor, but not pottery pat further down the road. Reverend Dr. Shane Yates, CEO and co-founder of task force heroes, who sent us his, uh, upon our request. He's not bragging. Sent us his like military CV. That goes on and on.

Chilly, what's your take on that? He just, Shane says, just demonstrates that he's old. Yeah, we were talking about, you know, how they change things like, for example, like, for up until like from 2001, like I believe like 2015 2016 2017 somewhere in there like they called it operation enduring freedom which means like the campaign in Afghanistan and then in 16 or 17 they change it to operation resolute support so like it just kind of signifies like things are constantly changing so though I don't understand most of what it's on there it's like

I'm sure there's something similar that I could probably relate it to. But like I look at it, I'm just like, yes. I would refer to him as stacked. So, which means. Jacked and stacked. No, no, no. He's getting totally uncomfortable over here.

Yeah. So when I say stacked, it's like, you look at his achievements in medals and like your stack is like your ribbons and medals. And so if you're stacked, you's like you look at his achievements and medals and like your stack is like your ribbons and medals. And so if you're stacked, you have a lot of them. Brown Star Medal with Oakleaf Cluster, Combat Action Badge, Iraq Campaign Medal with Two Brown Stars, Afghanistan Campaign Medal with Two Brown Stars, NATO Service Medal, National... I could go on and on. He loves it.

No. He loves it. I don't like it. What I know. Jump in here, Korean, help me out. But I'm not sorry at all. Born in Kodiak, Alaska. Let me just, let's take this approach.

Born in Kodiak, Alaska. Uh, a long career in law enforcement. Yeah, I was actually, I was born in. Stay close to that mic, Shane. Oh, sorry. I was born in Encino. Oh, okay. California, but spent most of. Stay close to that mic Shane. Oh, sorry. I was born in Encino, California, but spent most of my life growing up in Kodiak. Got it.

Yeah. And then long time law enforcement and LAPD. LA sheriff. LA sheriff. Sorry, that's my bad. And then. Yeah, don't mix us up with LA. And then.

I love my LAPD guys. LA sheriff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And then long, long time in the US army. Yeah. Yeah. I went in a little older. Uh, and again, I'm still in, so I'm not here representing the army, but, um, I went in after, after law enforcement as a, as a chaplain, just kind of an interesting change.

And, uh, and yeah, been doing that now for almost 18 years in that. Up the, uh, Shane lives up the road for me and well, it not lives, but, uh now for almost 18 years. And that. Shane lives up the road for me. And well, not lives, but Shane's organization, Task Force Heroes, is based up the road for me on a property. And I just became aware of Shane and wanted to have him on the show because of, he does really cool work, which we're going to get into.

Shane hosts, you tell, tell everybody what you tell everybody. I wanted to do it like an intro, but I'd rather just hear it from you. Yeah. Yeah. So we bring up first responders and vets from all across the country, uh, totally free. Um, I mean, guys and gals from, uh, various

agencies, a lot of them been involved in some of the more major critical incidents that have gone on in the country. So we're, we're blessed to do that. And then vets from, from all over the country as well. So police, fire, and, and either actively serving or veterans.

Give an example of some of the groups you might have up. I mean, as much as you're comfortable. Yeah. You've at various times told me about groups you had in, and it could be like a collection of officers who've been involved in a specific incident or how much are you comfortable

talking about? Yeah, no, no. Like for instances. Yeah, we can talk a little bit about that. So we get a ton of, for whatever reason, probably just some of my connections in LA, but we get a lot of LAPD guys, a lot of metro division, you know, tier one level, you

know, SWAT, canine guys up. Um, a lot of, uh, we've had a lot of Huntington Beach pilots, uh, Huntington Beach PD folks, Long Beach fire from some incidents that occurred there. Uh, an unfortunate incident in particular where, where a captain was, was killed on a fire, uh, by a pistol, uh, by a guy with a handgun.

And then, uh, you know, vets from all over the place and from multiple conflicts, uh, mostly OIF, OEF, Iraq, Afghanistan stuff. Um, a lot of pilots, 160 Assault guys, just kind of all over, all over the board. And these guys come up and, uh, they, they fish, you guys shoot bows, you get outside. And as Shane puts it, he, he put it to me, um,

uh, the technical term he put to me, we shower them in love, man. I mean, I think, you know, here's, here's the deal, right? The goal is to reach in and massage their hearts and, and love on them and meet them right where they are, not where we think they need to be, uh, just, just right where they are

in their journey. Um, and so we do fly fishing, right? We teach that, we do archery stuff. We used to do more mountain biking, but they seem to like the archery is probably their favorite. Uh, we said we set up a course, 3d targets, all that kind of long course.

And then, uh, and then get them out fishing. And then we, we don't want them just to, just to go have fun. I mean, that's a, that's a part of it, right? To kind of decompress, get out of the concrete jungles that they're working in or wherever they're at, um, we want them to, to take home something as well for their toolbox.

And, and, uh, and so we teach resiliency skills, kind of the five pillars. We'll talk about spiritual resiliency, whatever that looks like to them. You could also substitute the word resiliency for fitness, but, uh, spiritual resiliency, physical resiliency, emotional,

social, family, um, mental, all those kind of, all those kinds of things too. So they learn something while they're there. And then we also give them a little shot of some leadership stuff. Um, we talk about their core, their context, their capabilities and courage. What's real courage look like?

You know, where, where are you going to stand up and, and, and let's look at the times where you should have stood up for what was right. Um, and so we cover all those context would be where you're currently at in your life, your marriage, family, uh, work, um, capabilities, what are those guide, giving gifts and talents that you have that maybe you're not using? What are the things that rob you of your energy, man, drain you?

And what are the things that you can do that give you energy? So obviously outdoors is one of those things. We're going to dive into that pretty deep and then talk about your own background. But you gotta hang tight with us for a minute when we're gonna talk about a couple other things. Yeah. We have,

this is, a lot of times guys write in with like really arcane fishing wildlife rule breaking questions okay all right and so we got to do a little listener feedback here you ready for this one so this guy says meat eater crew I've recently watched your episode titled the future of of Waterfowl. The segment about how limits on waterfowl are decided remind me of a question I have discussed with buddies while sitting in the blind. You ready for this Shane? I live in northern Kentucky along the Ohio River. A lot of

fishermen and hunters in this area purchase a Kentucky license as well as an Indiana license so that we can access the tributaries on both sides of the river. Most laws are pretty straightforward, but one area that is questionable are the limits for each state. For example, as a Kentuckian, we are allowed three As a Kentuckian, we are allowed three Canada geese during the late season. As a Hoosier in the southern zone, you are allowed five Canada geese daily for the duration of the season. My questions are as follows. As a Kentucky resident that holds a license for both states hunting on water that is legal for both states, what is my legal limit during the late season? Does it depend on which ramp you launch off or which state's wildlife officer checks you?

Can I shoot a limit for both states? I think it's funny how you didn't, huh? I took it to a game warden. Well, yeah, it's funny though that he says that he purposely hasn't taken it to a game warden because he just loves talking about it and just wondering about it and writing into meat eater about it. Yep. It's like when I make us go to the game warden.

When I would send a question to a game warden, it's like, you know, well, let's say a fella, you know? Just maybe. Before you give the answer, can I take a stab? Yeah. I don't have the answer. I have how a game warden... I asked a retired game... recently retired game warden how he would handle it, and he gave me a couple things to think about. Yeah, because they'll always tell you that it's up to their interpretation, right?

But I would think, I would feel like I would have a very strong case. No matter which state I launched in, if I had the correct hunting license, and he has both, if I went to the state where you could shoot more geese, and I shot more geese there, not in the state where you could only shoot three, but where you could shoot five, which was in Indiana, and I shot five geese, and then I came back to Kentucky, I was just over there hunting as a non-resident hunter. As long as you could prove where you were and where you shot your five geese, it shouldn't be a problem.

And it's a definite no on the question whether you can shoot two limits. Yeah. That seems obvious. I'm gonna give, I'm gonna offer, and this I'm gonna offer a couple little, just a little color from different areas before I tell you what the game warden said, he didn't say anything like drama, you know, like, like stunning, but like, let me give you a couple things to consider. We might've discussed this in the original conversation, but like, for

instance, take the Delaware river, which, uh, for a while along its course, it forms the border between New York and Pennsylvania. They created a sort of unified zone so that you didn't have New York law in that river contradicting Pennsylvania law in that river. The two states come together and come up with a river bag limit. You can fish the entire river with either state's license, but then the river has a bag limit that sits aside. Like let's say New York is like six bass a day, Pennsylvania, I'm just pulling these numbers out,

they're not real. Pennsylvania has four bass a day. And so instead of some guy saying, well, do I get six or four? They go and say, in the river, in that river, we're going to come together and say, it's five in that river. That's one way to handle it. Um, another example that's totally different is if you go to, uh, the

St. Mary's river, which forms the border between the United States and Canada, particularly Michigan and Ontario. Um, you have to like, no, in that river channel, the international boundary runs up the river. You're obligated to know where you are. Yeah, the border patrols in that. You're obligated to know like this line you can't see. It's your responsibility to know that you didn't drift five feet over into the U.S. while fishing. And that's how they look at it. I had one more example that I thought was kind of interesting about how they do all this. Well, here's what the warden said. The warden said, I'd be looking at two questions.

Where were you? Oh no, I got one more color, one more bit of color. Where were you? What? Oh no, I got one more color, one more, one more bit of color in Alaska. They do an interesting thing with this, where it kind of pertains. Let's say that you're have one area and you're allowed three blacktail deer per year, and you have another area and you're allowed one blacktail deer per year. Throughout the season,

you can't hunt a place where you are over that place's bag limit, regardless of where you got them. Oh, collectively? So if you're in the three limit and you shoot one, you can't go hunt in the one limit? Yep. So... So let's say, like, let's say you go down to the, you go down to Sitka

and you kill a black, you kill a black tail. And then you go to your home and your home is a one bag limit. You're out in your home. You couldn't be like, well, I got my one there where it's three. It's like it, your possession limit follows you to wherever you go. So the warden that I brought this question to said, I would be looking at, where were you when you shot them? Obviously. But then I would also be wondering, I would be looking at two is besides that, where were you when you possessed them? So you're thinking of that you cross the channel and kill, you cross the channel in a place and kill five where you're allowed five, but then you're pulling out,

you're still got your shotgun with you and you're still look to be hunting and you're pulling your boat out in a three zone, he would feel that you were over your possession in the field. And it'd be like, well, I understand you got him over there, that you were over your possession in the field. And it'd be like, well, I understand you got them over there, but here you're hunting and you're over your possession. And that's his take on it.

I feel like that's reading the rules in a way where you're trying to be like the most fair, like you're not trying to like, advantage yourself in a little, you know, like I think that's the right way. So I think that our listener probably like deep inside his heart knows what the answer really is. So there. Yeah. And maybe the warden, like the warden's in a position where, uh, he is, you really got to go figure out where you were standing when he shot all these.

He's just like, dude, you're like out in your boat hunting. You got your gun, you have five geese, you're here. Like you're here. You're over your limits. Yeah. I also feel like it's a pretty easy question to answer because I can, I guarantee that he's not the first person along that river that has ever had that question and or maybe or not done that.

So just call the, your FWP, your game warden and ask them because I'm sure they've dealt with it before. So it's like I feel like he went out of his way to email us where he could have just called the FWP office and figured it out. Well no, I think he emailed because this is my favorite subject in the world. Just like weird game loss. No, no, no, totally. What I'm saying is like he emailed with not knowing if he could get a response from you,

but he could have certainly got a response from, guaranteed response from FJP. Yeah, but he's also contributing to our content. So thanks, thanks, Jared. Thank you very much. Despite chili, despite chili, thinking that you like screwed up and, yeah, man, come on, dude.

Good question. This next one, we're gonna go to, we're going to go to, we're going to go to Reverend, we're going to go to our pastor. All right, here we go. Cause this is, this is an ethics one. Now you got law enforcement background, so you could have definitely weighed in on law enforcement. We're going to bring an ethics one to you. We do a thing called, we have a colleague called Chester and Chester is the nicest, most fair guy in the world. Right. So a lot of times we'll bring etiquette questions and we call them Chetiquette and we'll bring them to Chester who usually waffles. He's usually like, wow, you know, I can see both sides, you know?

Well, here's an ethics one for you. All right. Hello crew. You ready? You following Shane? I'm following. Hello crew. I hunt rural South Carolina on my father-in-law's property, which is mostly

open row crop fields with a few blocks of wood between fields. You picturing it? Mm-hmm. My father-in-law in the late 2000s bought the land from his father-in-law. This sounds like a right thing for, I haven't read this yet. This sounds like there might be a divorce brewing somewhere in this email. A lot of in-laws. I don't think that fact is actually important to the- Oh, it's not, it doesn't wind up being about divorce. Okay. So just a little background. Father-in-law bought it from father-in-law. There is a guy that has half a dozen stands scattered across the property. It's roughly 800 acres.

He also loans his spots out to his friends to hunt as they please. This guy theorizes that this individual is charging these people to hunt and has turned this land into a hunting club. My father-in-law has zero interest in hunting, so this is not really an issue for him, but it is for my wife, his daughter, and her brother along with myself. So, just to help people at home understand, the patriarch who actually owns the land doesn't care what this guy does.

His children care. And this guy has no affiliation with the family other than he used to have access with the previous owner, father-in-law of his father-in-law. So let me, I'll continue on. He, the patriarch, does not want to completely kick the guy off the land because he had permission to hunt there before my father-in-law acquired the property. So he feels that he should be allowed a couple stands,

but only the one guy, not his buddies. Pete. Lots of feelings. Pete. There's lots of, yeah. Pete. However, the guy has never actually asked my father-in-law for hunting permission since he has been the landowner for 17 years. I confronted the guy and drew on the map the one field, about 85 acres, that me, along with my wife and brother-in-law, were okay with him and only him hunting. He was not a fan of my suggestion and responded that he was going to hunt the whole road, which is about 400 acres.

How can I handle this for the 2025 deer hunting season? My wife is leaning towards calling the game warden. This guy points out, I don't know, this will do much good because my father-in-law is not the kind of guy to press trespassing charges. Meanwhile, the brother-in-law wants to tear down the hunting stands. What's the cleanest way to avoid any larger issues if there are any? I mean, this guy feels pretty darn entitled. I think Pops has got the last say.

Yes. I mean, that's, that's about mine. He's, he's barking up the wrong tree. He wrote the email to the wrong people. Yeah. He's, yeah. I'm sorry, man. That's, that's, that's an ethical, that's a good one.

I wish I had easy ones like that all the time. Yeah. It sounds like you gotta go talk to dad. And if dad's cool with it, then that's it. But isn't there like... Oh, it kinda swayed dad. Like if he got permission from two owners ago, he would... He's got his own problem.

Well, yeah, but he would also need to get permission again, or every time, like under new ownership. Not according to this guy. Well, not according to that guy. So like he has a tacit, he enjoys a tacit permission from the father-in-law. Whatever's going on between the guy and the father-in-law, if the owner of the property is like, I don't want to mess with the guy, that's his call. Yeah.

I got, we got a fun story. Similar to this where I'm sure I've told this, but I'll tell it. Uh, a friend of mine had a friend of mine from school had a, her family owns some properties in California. I'm talking to her dad and her dad's like, yeah, you guys can hunt turkeys. He says, no one's ever hunted turkeys except for it was like, I'm not exaggerating 20 years ago, 20 years prior, he had been trying to put in a water system. He had a, he had a pond and he was trying to put

in a wildfire water system of his own. So some guys from the local fire department came out and consulted with him about how to go about putting in his own pump system so that he could fight fire if his house was going to catch on fire. And as a thank you, he extended a permission to one of these firefighters to hunt turkeys. He's telling me no one's hunted it since that guy when I put the pump in. While we're hunting, while we're hunting, we run into a guy and here's a guy hunting the place. And I'm, and I, you know, it's a, you always feel funny cause like you're have permission to, but you can't, you gotta like ask like, Hey, what's my understanding from the landowners,

no one's hunting, but here's a guy hunting. So I'm like, Hey, what, what's up? Oh yeah. You know, Glenn gave me permission. I'm a firefighter. I know you talked gave me permission. I'm a firefighter. No, you talked to Glenn lately. No, how is Glenn doing? This guy hadn't been a hundred for 20 years

off that permission. Yeah. I mean, I mean, the right, obviously the right thing to do is you gotta, you gotta be checking in, man, if you're hunting somebody's property, you gotta check in once in a while, man. I mean, that's, that's a no-go. I mean, that's like- Yeah, I talked to him. When was the last time you all, it was back in 1974. He gave me permission

here. That's a bad deal. I think it's rampant though. Like we just, I had a little bit of a windfall with another property in Wisconsin that we just gained access to And I've been kind of giddy about it. Then I started thinking about it I'm like, you know, if everything's right according to these Older Latvian gals that no one's been hunting this place for some time It mean and they haven't been there in years and their kids don't have anything to do with it Someone else is probably treating it

as their hunting spot. Like I will not be surprised when I go there this spring to find tree stands, maybe a camera, maybe some tire tracks. I think, yeah, it's the- I guarantee it. It's the old, you know, better ask for forgiveness than permission attitude.

I'm telling you man, there's nothing quite like it gives me chubby. Just thinking about it. You hit the call way off in the distance. A time fires back. You work them in watching his body language shift from cautious to committed. Then that moment, the one, every Turkey hunter dreams about all winter. Is that gobbler locks eyes in your decoy and comes running in. And if you're using the right decoy, you don't need to then settle for a 40-yard nervous shot.

Because with the right decoy, you can get that bird in your lap, putting on a wild, aggressive turkey show. I mean, I'm talking where he's fighting the decoy. I've had him sitting there trying to mate with the decoy. It's the best thing in the world. But to pull it off, you need realism. Like you need decoys that don't just fool turkeys at a distance. You want a decoy that fools them when he's up there at point blank range,

beating the snot out of it. That is why diehard turkey hunters insist on Dave Smith decoys. Their unmatched realism fools even the warriest of times into thinking they're staring and fighting a real bird. And unlike inflatable decoys that crumble when shot, DSDs are built tough. They last season after season, even if you screw up and put a little TSS into one of them. To top it all off, every DSD turkey decoy is made right here in the good old US of A made in America. Check out the full lineup at davesmithdecoys.com

and take your turkey hunts to the next level. When we were little, it's stunning now to drive around where I live with, with on X because we're little, if public met, you hadn't been yelled at there yet. And now to be like, Oh my God, that's like a guy's place. I never really thought about what that place was. We just called it the woods. I'm surprised it isn't that people really don't check in more and that's so common because you could get in real big trouble

for trespassing. So don't you want to be a I just feel like the excuse of someone 17 years ago gave me permission doesn't hold. Like the one consonant life has changed. So you don't want to be current. You say real big trouble though and it's just it's there isn't the real big trouble I mean it's gonna be a slap on the hand it's like driving your atv places you're not supposed to drive it on these public lands. People do it because what are they gonna do there's like a

couple hundred dollar fine they're like oh I'd pay a thousand bucks and drive my ATV. For access fee. Yeah, exactly. Maybe we should, I don't know. Maybe we should, someone should think about changing the law, because that's. No, I don't know, Corinne. More rules and regulations around these parts.

People don't like that. All right, Shane, you ready? Okay, later. Why'd you guys go to Kodiak? You were born where? Where were you born? I was born in California, Southern California. How old are you?

I'm going to 57. How long you been married? Yeah. He's asked me these tough ones. My wife's gonna listen to this and make sure I get this right. I was married in 92. So what is that?

I don't know. 32, 33. Congratulations. Yeah, she put up with me. That's your only wife? Surprising, that's Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. She put up with me. Yeah. That's your only wife? Surprising. That's my only wife. Uh, so why, why Kodiak? Yeah.

So my dad did contracts, military contracts, was a builder, painter, did a lot of that. So, and, and he had a buddy from, uh, Vietnam that was up there crab fishing. So he started doing construction stuff and then, then he went crab fishing. Oh really? Bering C stuff. Yep. Huh. And you were brought up around that. Yeah. Had your dad been military? He was in Vietnam. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about, I don't, I've lost track of what it is, but, but lay out your family. Like you guys are a family of service, man. Yeah. Walk through that a little bit. It's kind of like,

when you're telling me it before, I was like, I couldn't even follow all the people from your lineage. Yeah. So I'm not sure where you want me to start, but, uh, grandparents served, um, you know, grandfathers, my dad served, um, I served, my three sons are serving, uh, two of the military, one in law enforcement.

And then my daughter's in law enforcement, one of my girls and then my other daughter. Um, uh, she's got two kids and she, she's the only one that's not, not serving, but she's, she's low on the list for, for a fire department. So that's what she's going to do. So that was a little bit baked in by your dad or no, like he wasn't bitter about Vietnam.

He, he didn't talk about Vietnam a lot, man. I love my pops, man, but he, he was always happy, right? Like always a happy guy, good mood, never cranky, never grumpy. Wouldn't really get too much into, into Vietnam, but, but, uh, I just kind of watched him and, and the little bits he would say just kind of always stood out, you know,

to me as, as hugely important. He'd always talk about his buddies over there and different things like that. And, um, and he was a former law enforcement guy. So he started with California Highway Patrol way back in the day. So I watched that service a lot. Um, and, uh, yeah, that was kind of my, my motivator, even, even in high school, even in Alaska, I think I was the only one of my buddies and I'm tight with all my buddies from up there, just small town, right? You grow up Island, right?

I mean, there was one stoplight when I was growing up, uh, we were excited to get a McDonald's when we were, I think in eighth grade or something. Um, but I think I'm the only one that went into, to, you know, military law enforcement type stuff. Out of that crew you grew up around. Out of that crew. Yeah.

Yeah. Out of that crew. What was the first move you made in that direction? Uh, what do you mean? What year did we go there? No, no, I'm sorry. Oh, it's- As, when you were, when you were young, you got in law enforcement.

Yeah, real young. So I left Alaska and I don't know, 87, but I go back up and fish. So the last place I fished was Bristol Bay commercial, uh, gill netting. Oh, you did? Yeah. Fish there.

I fished kind of all over Alaska, commercial fishing, um, salmon, herring, halibut openings. And then, uh, and then after that went to school for a little while at Boise, stayed not long. And then, and then went to, went to LA. I kind of wanted to see the, the action and, and where it was kind of all happening. And I certainly got that, but, uh, yeah, I got

hired, hired there in 88. So what year, what year in LA was the, it was later, the Rodney King incident and all that. Yeah, I was there for that. I was at 92. That was 92. Yep. Did you specifically want to go there because

of family ties into California or just because you thought that was a place you were going to. Well, I mean, it was, it's the largest sheriff's department, I believe in the, in the country and just advanced and, um, kind of wanted to see the inner city and, and kind of go for the top, you know, toughest place. And, and, uh, I was young and no responsibility

at the time. So, um, I went there and, uh, I was actually on Normandy when, when the riots jumped off. Well, you know, that, uh, Denny was getting kind of whooped up pretty good. Um, just, uh, up at Florence and Normandy. So I was just south on, on Normandy, south of Imperial, so we were, we were fairly close.

We didn't know he was up there getting whooped up on. I was just handling the call, guy got his car shot up, this little housing project and, uh, partner was down, down at the car. I was just getting the info and all of a sudden doors started swinging open and you know, certain things were being said to us. And so I just started jumping steps about every

three or four steps to get back to the car. And, and immediately the riots just jumped off. So we were going south on Norman and the streets were flooding. And I mean, it was like immediate. That's what was kind of wild to see just the immediate reaction of chaos. And I remember looking back and seeing just

people in the streets, stores getting looted. And we were called back to the station, kind of gear up and that's what we did. We, we geared up and they just said, do what you can do, try to roll two cars deep. And so that's what we did for the next couple of days. So yeah, it was different. Now it's just in your first few years of that.

Yeah. Yeah. I had worked custody, you know, with the sheriffs, you got to work in the jails first. So that's kind of an experience. Yeah. Um, I worked up at a super max facility and, um, that's, that's an interesting environment.

You can kind of learn the streets a little bit from being in there, you know, talking to, to inmates and whatnot, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Then you get, you know, you put in your dream list or your wish list for, I think back then it was six choices. So my first choice was to go down to South

Central and work. And I got my first choice. So you can kind of watch your numbers as they get lower and lower to when you're going to go out. I did 28 months in the jail. Uh, and then, and then got a sign there. So then you go to patrol school and then you'll get your, and then got a sign there. So then you go to patrol school and then you'll

get your station and your trainee for a while. That was an experience. Uh, I don't know how it is now, but, um, it was humbling. What was it like absorbing all that, uh, you know, absorbing that hatred of cops at that time in LA? Yeah. you know, absorbing that hatred of cops at that time in LA. Yeah, man. You know, I guess it's a little bit hard to understand. I mean, when you roll into an area where, you know,

it's painted, you know, spray painted certain words against the five O or, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, it was different from a kid that grew up in a tiny town, you know. Um, that, that first night on patrol was, was wild, um, as a trainee, as a new, new person. My FTO wasn't there that night, so wrote with a different guy. And, and so back then it was, you know, training

was, was hard, training was, was hard and you're the new person. So you just keep your mouth shut and do your work. And, uh, well, yeah, it was, it was different. Um, you know, I don't think it really affected me. I mean, just do your job. You just do your thing. Um, support the community as best you can support

your, your fellow, fellow deputies, but it was definitely a different environment from what I had grown up in, for sure. Yeah, how do you look at it? If you look at the LA riots at that time, just for younger people who don't remember this, there was an incident where it's like, if someone really wants to dig in on this, um, made in America, the documentary, I don't know if you've seen it, made in America, that, that covers the LA riots really carefully. It winds up being, it's this very long ESPN thing about OJ Simpson, but it spends a ton of time on the LA riots. But, so a bunch of officers pull over a guy, Rodney King. He resisted arrest somewhat. They beat the snot out of him.

They got acquitted, is that how it goes? Yeah. And then all hell broke loose. They chased him for a long time. Yeah. Somebody got on video. That's right. This is back when, somebody got on video. That's right. Yeah. Back. This is back when everything wasn't on video. Yeah.

Now it was novel. It certainly was after that. Yeah. How's that? Like when something like that happens for what, what, what's your attitude toward those officers? Do you, I mean, do you, do you stay like, do you stay where you think to yourself, well, I understand where they're coming from, I understand where they got pushed to, or do you look at something like that

when you're a policeman, and do you look at something like that, and you'd be like, man, you guys should have known better. Like, how do you handle it internally? I think one of the biggest things is, you never know what's gone on prior to this, right? Or, or what the call was or, or what's happening. I'm certain that I'm certainly not justifying the,

the amount of force that is used. I wasn't there. You know, I don't, I don't know, other than what I saw, but, um, there, there's always many details and conversations and things said, um, and things done by the suspect as well, as the, as the cop that, uh, I think that, that plays a huge role in all that, you know, and it's easy to, you know, again, not that situation, but other situations, you know,

you can see on TV and you can watch it, but who knows what happened prior to that or what he was wanted for or what his actions were, what he said or what the witness said or all that stuff is a huge piece of the story. Yeah. And in those cases, that's the thing I always wind up thinking. I always wind up looking and I'm like, man, I would have to have like a documentary about what

went on that day before I can really start putting together who did what. Now that you see stuff and you're like, it seems egregious, but then you're like, I don't know what the hell happened, man. Right. Like, you know, I don't know the background. Right.

And why is it being hard to weigh in on it, you know? Right. People are sure quick to. Right. But I always feel a little reluctance. Right. Yeah.

I mean, in the, every, you know, encounter with someone, you don't know who you're encountering. I don't know what they knew about him or his background. I mean, I've heard things, uh, but you know, all those things play a, play a role. What was he wanted for?

What was the crime committed? But again, I mean, you do have to kind of, kind of chill, right? Yeah. I mean, you gotta, you do have to kind of, kind of chill, right? Yeah. I mean, you gotta, you gotta get to a point where you can, you can function and take care of business without getting too caught up in the, in the scenario.

Yeah. Um, I mean, that's, that's my thought. But again, I wasn't there, different department, so I don't, uh, I don't judge any, anything, any, anything going on there too much. I mean, it didn't look great, right? On film, it just, it obviously didn't.

So, um, but not be there. I'll, I'll hold, I'll hold my, my judgment. So how long did you stay with LA sheriff? So I was there from 88 to 96 or so, and then transferred up to Washington state. Uh, I just didn't want to raise my kids down there anymore, you know, it's, it's, it's getting rough.

It was getting rough when I lived in a, in a town and forgive me all you people from Palm dale, Lancaster, but, uh, I was living 90 miles one way from, from the station to my house. So, you know, when you got court every day and you got, I was working graveyard most of the time, you're getting off in the morning and then you got court, you're not coming day, you got, I was working graveyard most of the time, you're getting off in the morning and then you got

court, you're not coming home, you're sleeping in the bunk room, then you're driving 89 miles home or, you know, whatever you decide to do. Um, that was a lot. And then when you're starting to get gangsters roll up in your, in your driveway, trying to okey-doke the police. What I mean by okey-doke is trying know-ack them or, you know, not acknowledge

them. Maybe they're trying to pretend like they live at your house and you're getting woke up by someone trying to open your door and, uh, and the deputies are in hot pursuit behind him or containment's in your yard. Um, it's probably time to. Hold on, that happens randomly?

Or is it? It happened to me three times. So. But they're not because you were a, not because you were a sheriff, it was just a coincidence. Right. Whoa.

Yeah. So they're on a different world. I mean, at the station I work, we average about 66 homicides a year. So it's a different environment, man. Just different. But when that started happening, I mean, I'd get a message on my MDTO, Hey, we got a containment, a guy just jumped your fence in your backyard

and my wife's home with little kids. And. Nothing to do with you being a cop. Nothing to do with it. He just happened to pull his caper somewhere close, right? I mean, and that was his route that he took. So it wasn't the greatest area to live in.

So, um, I couldn't afford to live in some of the other, other spots on a, on a single income. And so it was time. It was time, a great department, great people, some of the best, my opinion, some of the best street cops there in this country, probably the world, you know, worked there. What makes a good street cop?

I think a guy that can communicate well, right? A guy that can, I think also empathize, have compassion, but also be direct and can communicate. Um, can kind of relate and communicate well with, with the people in the community. Uh, you know, and that's, I think those are, those are huge. Um, and I think there's also kind of a sixth sense,

right? Like, you know, being able to see and watch and learn and pay attention to the small details and listen to the small details. Um, and then time in the, in the radio car, right? I mean, you just, you gotta put in your time and, uh, yeah, I think those are some of the, some of the factors. Did things chill out when you went to Washington state?

It was different. Yeah. Yeah, it was different. Uh, a lot different, um, cheaper live, um, you know, great department, great people. Um, but yeah, police work done different. Some of the laws are a little different. Uh, you know, the environment's different,

right? Were you in Seattle? No, Southwest Washington. Yeah. Closer to Portland. So the whole environment's different. Was there like a big, like mental shift from like working down in LA to like working up?

I mean, just like, did your like combat mindset change in kind of a way? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm on a podcast, man. So I gotta watch what I say. Okay. See, we in Korea could talk about this, right? I said, yeah, what are we going to talk about?

Yeah. I'll ask you a hunting assistant. Now if we're sitting out of my place, I'd be telling you straight, you know. Uh, huge mental shift, right? Because, you know, if you're working in a known gang area, known narcotics area, there's, there's things that are justifiable by the law that you can do in certain areas.

Now I'm talking way back in the nineties. I don't know how it is now. So, so forgive me, but, um, you know, you've made multiple arrests at this location. You know, there's known drug dealers in the area, there's all of these things that you can articulate that can help you deal with bad guys. Right.

Um, you don't, you don't have that now. You're in a, you're in a town of where there's very few gangs, at least at the time, um, drugs are everywhere. So, so those are, those are around, but, um, yeah, you have to adjust your, you have to slow down your role and you have to calm down. Right.

That's how I'd say it. And I, and I got told that. Yeah. Just a side question. When you were, when you went from Alaska to California and then to Washington, did you pursue your outdoor activities as a, you know, kind of release, relief from what you were doing?

Did you have time to do that? Washington's great for, I mean, they got some good hunting there. Grouse, I've elk hunted there, deer hunted, all those things. I liked hunting grouse, that was fun. I mean, it wasn't Kodiak where when I think when I got there, I was really young, so I didn't start hunting right away. But before I moved there, I'd lived for a short time in Idaho. So I started hunting with my dad when I could hold, he would tell me,

when you're tall enough to hold on to the belt loop with your finger of my belt area on my jeans, you can come with me. So I was like, all right, Pop. So I finally got to that point. It didn't take long because I'm pretty taller guy, right? So I'd hold onto the belt loop and, and roll with him.

I had this old US army canvas backpack and, uh, and I'd have the lunches in there and a BB gun and, and be rolling around. And for years, the story about a BB gun, I thought I actually killed this chucker one time with this BB gun. And I thought I'd heard my dad shoot too time with this BB gun and I thought I'd heard my dad shoot too, but I was pretty young

and I got this thing with my BB gun. It's like 40 yards away or something. My dad's like, oh yeah, you smoked it. You did great. And for years, I believed I made this crazy shot, but as I got older, I realized he shot that doggone thing. Let me think all these years I shot that

chucker. Um, yeah, I think staying involved in, in, in outdoor stuff. California is mostly quail. I deer hunted a little bit. A lot of bird hunting is just a little more accessible in time. You know, it's so busy down there.

Um. Did you, uh, did you ever come across roller pigeons? No. Okay. That's a new one. I just had to ask. A roller pigeon.

I know a lot of animals too. I mean, I watch a lot. It's like a, it's street, like, you know, dudes that are into street pigeons. Oh, right. But they train, yeah, it's this whole. I got you. Yeah.

We were introduced to this like pigeon fans here's Tyson, Mike Tyson. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't see, I saw a lot of pigeons in the city, but, uh, not, uh.

These are dudes that keep pet pigeons. Yeah. Pigeons, chickens. Yeah. You'd be on calls and in the inner pigeons. Yeah. Pigeons, chickens. Yeah. You'd be on calls and in the inner city and. Chickens and fighting chickens. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Running all over the place. Uh, the other crazy thing about being down there, which was, I always thought this was odd and some guys that are listening to this that work down there can relate. But when I get together with the LAPD Southeast guys or some of these guys, we have some fun or 77th division, but they have these dogs, man. And I don't, I don't know a better term. So I hope this doesn't come off crazy, but like

we just call them ghetto dogs, like inner city dogs and they're just wild, but they know the city. Like, like I've literally watched a dog go up to a major street, look both know the city. Like, I've literally watched a dog go up to a major street, look both ways and cross. Like, they just, and they're all over the place. It's wild, or you'll see a homeless guy, which obviously I feel I've got a heart for some of the homeless, but he cruising down with a shopping cart and about eight dogs behind him. But they're seasoned, they're seasoned vets, man. These dogs, I'm telling you, they just, they know the city.

They know gunshots, I'm out. Like I'm going, I'm going. It's just wild. Yeah, it's just wild. Different world, man. Different world. So walk me through how you went from police work into the military. And then how'd you become a reverend? Yeah, that's a wild one, man.

I had to really, I had to soften up. I had to, moving to Washington helped me, helped me kind of soften. And I, glory to the Lord, man. That's, I'll just be bold about that. I had to, I had to slow down, soften up, and it was good for me, personally and family wise. But towards the end of my career, I knew I wanted to be done, is I got close to the end softened up and it was good for me, um, personally and family wise.

Um, but towards the end of my career, I knew I wanted to be done as I got close to 20. I want to be done and politics and garbage that goes on at some of these agencies. And it's still happening. I, my heart, I hear it all the time from guys. It's, it's unfortunate for these, these, uh, officers that are out there just grinding, you know, working holidays, facing the stuff

they face, especially the last, you know, four years, just the stuff they're having to deal with. But, um, yeah, a guy hands me a book and, uh, it's called a table in my presence written by Kerry Cash. It's about a Marine. Tell me the title. Sorry. Uh, a table in my presence. A table in my presence.

Right. It comes from a title, sorry. A Table in Thy Presence. A Table in Thy Presence. Right. It comes from a Psalm, right? Okay. And Navy chaplain assigned to the Marines first push into Iraq and he just talks about his ministry to these military folks and the dangers they faced and seeing some of the miracles that God did over there. And we could talk a lot about some of the stuff. I'm sure we'll get to

that. But it was amazing to me and I was being pulled in that direction. I was in seminary working on a graduate degree and just doing stuff in the church and a lot of youth stuff. And man, it was just, it was an amazing book. And, uh, and that, and he gave it, he gives it to me, he says, Hey man, I know you're thinking about going into full-time ministry at some point, he goes, this might be a good fit with your background, you know, you kind of have this sort of, sort of tactical side.

And again, many guys have done more than me and gotten more awards and all that. It's, it's not about that. It just, his point was this might be a good fit in this, that environment. And of course the, it was the height of Iraq. A lot of stuff was going on and, and I thought, yeah, I don't know, maybe, maybe so. Am I being called there?

Right? Like, do I have this, this internal burning desire to go serve in that environment? Well, I'm going to be separated from my family. Right. Five kids, I'll be separated. Wife won't be there. At that point.

Initially they were like 18 months with the army deployment with two weeks, R and R, then it went to 12 with two weeks. Then it went to 12, three at the mode platform, nine in theater with no R and R. So that was kind of the cycle. So you've got to be, you know, mentally tough against not, it's not me.'s not me, it's I think the Lord preparing you, preparing your family, preparing your wife and kids for that separation. And so I took it to her, and I don't know the timeframe, a month or so after I read the book, and I said, hey, what do you think about this as we're getting close here? And she said, Hey, what do you think about this? As we're getting close here. And, uh, and she said, no, no way.

Like you're going to be gone. And I'm like, well, just pray about it and see. And so then about two weeks later, I remember coming home with my motor and we rode motorcycles year round up there, uh, police, police motors in the rain and the whole deal. And I'd usually go up and get warm, take a bath or something, you know, to heat up. And I went upstairs in the bathroom, this is a true story, and she's up there in tears

and I'm like, what's going on? And you guys are gonna, you get me emotional. And she said this, she said, hey, if God wants you in a downrange environment or wherever He's calling you to, He's got us here and we stand behind you and I support it. And that shocked me. You know, kind of rocked my world a little bit. And, uh, yeah, then, uh, they didn't make it easy. Um, you know, you've got to have all this stuff to, to go in as a chaplain, right?

To serve in that way. You've got to be endorsed by a department of, uh, department of defense, endorsing body. You've got to have so much ministry experience. You've got to be ordained. You've got to have your MDiv. You've got to have so much ministry experience. You've got to be ordained. You've got to have your MDiv. You've got to pass your secret clearances. You've got to be physically fit, your medical stuff, you know, all of those things.

And, uh, and then you got to get your basic officer leader course, which is at Jackson, South Carolina. So you've got a lot of that going on. So I remember going to MAPS and I'd had a back surgery. I had hurt my back doing some jujitsu stuff and, uh, yeah, and, uh, just trying to shrimp this guy off of me and, and blew a disc.

So, cause I was tired of him pounding on me and, uh, anyway, blew the disc out. That's a whole nother story, but, um, I had to get a waiver. So I remember going to MEPs. I'm like the old guy in there, right? Like most chaplains are a little older cause you gotta go through all the school and you gotta do all these things. But yeah, I'm the older guy in MEPs in my underwear.

I won't run around in MEPs with all these young 18, 19 year old guys doing all this stuff, you know, duck walk and all these different things. And, uh, and all these different things. And I get to the end and everything went well and he goes, he goes, hey, you gotta get a waiver. I can't pass you. And I'm like, I remember looking at this guy, super nice guy. I think he was about 99 years old, but super nice guy. And, uh, and he goes, guy, I'm like, what? And I said, Hey man, I just said, you don't understand, sir.

I said, God's called me to do this. I need to, and he kind of looked puzzled and I said, well, I don't, you know, you got to get a waiver. So eventually I got the waiver and then deployed pretty quick after that. I went to a Cav squadron, calvary unit, a lot of cool tradition in the calv. And I was over there and the funny story, it's

not funny, but cool part of the story is I went over there and my son in the meantime had joined right out of high school. And he was also in the same calv, he was in a Charlie troop and, um, we're both in Baghdad together for, for that whole time. So that was a little, that was a little wild. Um, but yeah.

How together? Yeah. Uh, same squadron. Um, he was housed a little ways away from me, not far, I was on Camp Liberty. Um, and he was down more on the South, kind of the victory complex, the whole thing is victory complex, but I don't know if

Chile's been over there, but, um, he was, if I took a little, uh, I don't want to, I gotta be careful how I say some of these terms here on a podcast, but they give us these little vehicles to drive, right? What the locals would drive. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so we called him. We had a certain name for him, but, uh, it would take me maybe 30 minutes to get over there, not too long to get to where he was. Um, so yeah, that was wild. Was it, was it easy,

like, I'm sure it wasn't, it's probably a rhetorical question, but like separating, you know, being a father in a combat environment, like having your son like there, like, and knowing, probably being pretty well informed about like what's going on, like what your son's going through and like versus like what you're going through, like how was that like experience? Like.

Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, it was different because, you know, so, so I was, so it's, we use the term squadron in the Cav, right? So, um, in an infantry, it'd be a battalion. Right. And so you're the only chaplain though, for that

whole battalion or squadron. So on that deployment, we had about 600 and something soldiers. We weren't totally organic to, uh, we weren't all calve. We had a group from Nebraska that helped supplement us and some other folks. So you're the only child for 600 folks, but

you know, you got to care for all of them, right? That that's the sheep that got us that, Hey, here's the deal, Shane. I got this, this ain't about you. It's not your deal. Uh, which I had to learn the hard way after we, we lost a couple of guys right away. But, um, you know, this is about my plan.

You just go take care of them. You just go love on them, take care of your staff, your commander, um, you know, advise them, do your religious area analysis on, on, you know, what, what, uh, is it Sunni, is it Shia? And you work a little bit with the S2 on some of that stuff.

How do we deal with Koreans? Um, where's the Muslim burial ground? You know, you kind of can work through that, that part of it, advising the commander on the moral and ethical ramifications for decisions he's going to make, or she's going to make in that, in, in your, in your AO, right? So you have that responsibility, but you

also have a three pong responsibility, which is honor the dead, care for the wounded and nurture the living. So you've got that. And earn the trust, right? You got 600 soldiers. The worst, the worst thing I can hear when I go to, when I would go back then, when I was just

a first lieutenant or captain is to get to a unit and you go, Hey, who's, you know, I'm the new chaplain. Who was your chaplain before? They go, I don't know. Okay. That's the wrong answer. Or I don't really see him or her wrong answer. Right.

So that means you don't as a chaplain. I was probably because of my, probably my background and just, just the different way I thought it the best way to operate was be with them. Right. Take the similar risks, be with them. Get your butt out of your office. Don't need to read books all day.

Right. I know you got cubs and bubs and update briefs and counseleens and sometimes memorials and caring for the wounded. You got all that, but you need to be out with the soldiers and, uh, that that's the place to be. And I w I was willing to take a, take some

ass chewings to, to do that. Cause you know, they lose you and I mean, you're a great target, right? It's a great target for the enemy to take out the chaplain. He's the kind of the spiritual, even though it's not you necessarily leading, it's, it's God doing the work, but they see you as the

spiritual leader and you don't have a gun, right? So you're going on all these missions. You got an assistant, it's an actual MOS that goes with you. Um, religious affairs specialist, they call them now, back then it was chapel and assistants. So they're an enlisted person that's, that's

armed that stays with you. But you know, you've, uh, you got a cross on your uniform, you've got a, no gun, you got all the gear, you're a soldier, right? You're a soldier first, but that's a, that's a good target, take, take him out. Mm hmm? You're a soldier first, but that's a, that's a good target, take, take him out. You know, especially.

Where did that come from? Where's the decision to not be armed? It's a Geneva Convention thing. And it's been around a long time. I think Vietnam was, I think the last, and I could be wrong here, but I think the last war where they, they gave, uh, you know, medics and chaplains, uh, guns.

So yeah, no, no weapon. So, but that's where you're in the trust, right? Yeah. Be with the, be with your folks because if they don't know you and they don't trust you, they're not going to come walking in your office and, and tell you what's bugging them or get the counts in their need or, Hey, you know, back home,

my wife's leaving me because I've been gone and she's cheating on with so on and so on and so on. Or I'm messing around with this person or, you know, whatever's going on in their life or I got suicidal ideations or, you know, any of those things. You got her in the trust, man.

And the only way to do that is to get down in the trenches with them. And so. Yeah, that's pretty common. You know, in the eight years I spent, like I don't, I don't remember a single chaplain's name, but they would show up, like they would show up like when we had like suicides and like when we were

in country and like, you know, injuries. And then they treated it like a, like a check in the box, like it was more like, Hey, you know, your commander asked me to come down here and talk to you guys. It's just like, you were the last person I wanna talk to, just cause I don't know you. And I just find that, so like my,

I wouldn't say my experience with chaplains have been negative, but I just, I didn't know anything. Right, or nonexistent, right? And that's the, and listen, we got many, many good ones out there, many great ones. But, you know, to me, and we, listen, we got a many, many good ones out there, many great ones. Oh, totally. Um, but you know, to me, you want to earn your, your bones or your stripes or whatever you want to call it, then you need to get out of

your office and get out on missions with them and spend time with them. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's even if, even if, you know, sometimes a commander would be like, I had some great commanders, uh, one of them's, you know, still in as a two star now and just an awesome individual. He was an old five at the time. And uh, you know, I'd take a, I'd take a whooping from it from time to time, especially

if you got, if I got stuck in Mama Dio or, you know, Fallujah or something, cause of red air, you know, and he's like, Hey, you need to get back here. I'm like, I'm stuck. Yeah. I can't, I can't, the convoy ain't rolling, but, um, that, cause of red air, you know, and he's like, Hey, you need to get back here. I'm like, I'm stuck. Yeah. I can't, can't, the convoy ain't rolling, but, um, that, that's where you're in your trust. And then, then all of a sudden you're in your office as you keep going, uh, as you're going on your, in your, in your tour and you get there in the morning and

you, you didn't sleep much. I mean, I'd be up till midnight one and then you're up at four or whatever, but, And you, you didn't sleep much. I mean, I'd be up till midnight one and then you're up at four or whatever, but, um, go to your, your update briefs and you know, go to your, your sinks and stuff like that. Then you get to your office and there's eight people lined up outside your door.

You know, that's when you know, okay, it's, it's starting to work. The trust is coming. Right. What were those eight people be there for? Oh, a variety of things. Some suicidal ideation, some my girlfriend's breaking up with me, some divorce, some

grandpa's sick, mom's sick. You know, the similar things that you'd see here, but it just gets heightened, gets intense, intensified being over there. Um, sometimes it could be they'd lost, you know, a friend, uh, you had a KIA and they want to work through that. Um, we have special things we do for that,

similar to what we do up here, which are like a Thames event or traumatic event management event where we ask certain questions, give everybody a chance to kind of talk through what they saw or how they feel. It's not, I don't run them like a big, warm, fuzzy kumbaya thing, but it's a good time to sit down and just let some

stuff out. You don't have to talk if you don't want to. We used to call them critical incident debriefs. Um, so yeah, it could be a variety of, variety of things, um, chain of command issues, you know, what, whatever. I dealt with so many, I mean, hundreds and

hundreds of counseling sessions on, on, on both deployments. Um, but, uh, my first one, that, that one had, that one had a lot, a lot of stress, you know. Did you go into that work knowing that, that, or I guess not knowing, but had it already, was it already common knowledge at that time that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were going to spin off this generation of, of soldiers

with like extraordinarily high suicide rates? Was that, was that, has that always been true of war? Uh, I think it's gotten worse. Um, you know, there, there was a lot when I was, when I was in on my first, first deployment. And then when I went on active duty up at joint base, Louis McCord, similar, similar. It was just seemed to kind of continue to get

increased. I mean, we're a war, a long time, you know? And I think that contributed to it a hundred percent. Like what's, what, what do you feel is like, what is going on? Oh man. Uh, yeah, again, uh, you know, Chile and I

could have this conversation and, and, and all of us off, off mic here, but, uh, I think there is some generational things that could be going on. I know we do seem to have quite a few that are currently happening. Again, I'm just speaking from my own personal opinion, I'm not speaking on behalf of the army

at all here, but from what I see in my lane, we do get quite a few that are not related to combat experience. And that's a puzzling factor. Is it, is it contributing factors that they had prior to joining the military? Is it just the inability with some of the newer generation to cope with stress and cope with

embracing the suck factors? Um, you know, is it, is it some of that? And I don't think we've really put our finger on it, um, the definitely, uh, you know, a lot of the combat related stuff, because you think about this, man, here's, here's the way to look at it. So I remember coming home on, on, I was on leave for my first, I think it was my first one and I

was at a Starbucks and. In the U S. In the U S. In the U S. So I'm home for like two weeks and I go into Starbucks and I had just seen, you know, all this different, all this, all these, all this stuff, lost a couple of guys and, and uh, wounded, you know, kids eating trash, just different

environments, third world stuff. Well, you're in a Starbucks and the lady in front of me is blocking the line and complaining about her caramel on her latte. Right. crash, just different environments, third world stuff. Well, you're in a Starbucks and the lady in front of me is blocking the line and complaining about her caramel on her latte. Right. And you're kind of going and, and, and in Chile, I'm sure you're kind of thinking in your mind,

okay, is this, this is really happening. Yeah. I just came and watched all this stuff and here we are in America spoiled again, whatever we want. We got menus for everything. You can choose whatever you want. A lot of stuff's free depending on the programs and you know, and I just came from a

place where they're fighting on the street to dig out of a trash pile on the side of the road. And they're trying to kill each other. And you know, there's a war going on and you're complaining that you want more caramel in your latte. And I just remember that hit me weird. Like, like I'm like, okay, do I, does my flesh

take over and the chaplain go dark here and snatch this lady up and move her out of the light? Or do I just, you know, so I took some deep breaths and, and, uh, or I went to get an air cut same time, same time I was home and, and the lady goes, oh, are you in the military? Yeah, I was just home for a couple of weeks. So I didn't know there was, I didn't know

we were still fighting over there. Right. So you kind of go to a 10, like really? Well, then you come home. So let's say you take the average young, young guy, right? The young enlisted dude, they make the, they make the military work.

The enlisted 100%. I'll say that right off the top and they deserve a lot more than what they get awards wise and everything else. These youngsters, let's take guard or reserve. Let's take guard. All guards, all combat oriented units, right? They supplement the active force.

51% of the component in the, in the army, at least is garden reserve. So they're working at McDonald's, I'd say. They join the guard, they go to an infantry unit or a cav unit. Now he's on a 50 cal, he's rolling in an MRAP down some highway in Iraq or Afghanistan. He does his job.

I don't know, maybe he smokes, maybe he's got a smoke some baguette. I don't know, maybe he smokes, maybe he's got a smoke some baguette, I don't know, but he's, he's over there, he's embracing the suck. He's a part of it, he's doing his party, serving his country and he comes back and now he's back at McDonald's. Like a month after he gets home and someone comes in and is complaining about, you need

to make burgers faster. I'm not saying he doesn't need to do that, but he just got out of a, he was just operating a 50 for freaking, you know, nine months or whatever, and that's the hard part. It's that reintegration, you know. I think like to, for your question earlier, like why does that happen?

Like, again, personally, from like what I've noticed in like suicide rates, I think it's just like lack of purpose. You go from such a high to such a low and like in such a dramatic way. Like, I mean, similarly, it's like, when I got back, like, we flew out of Afghanistan, we're in Kuwait for a week and a half, two weeks almost. And Kuwait is still, I don't know if they considered it a combat environment, but it was like a hot, there was hostiles around there.

But like they had that base in Kuwait, I think it was, I can't, I want Ali Asharif, if that sounds familiar. I don't know, I can't remember what the base was called. But there was like a, was like a swimming pool there. And then there was, it was like a Starbucks, but it wasn't like a Starbucks. And like you had all these army guys rolling around, just like have, it was like completely oblivious.

And then you fly out and then it's nighttime and you wake up and you're in Cherry Point, North Carolina, and you're rolling through the gates, and you're like, you just, you're back in what we call Garrison, and then you're like, oh, it's so good to be home, and then like you go to a cookout or to a McDonald's, and then some heifer's just like bitching about her burger,

and you're just like, what is going on right now? And like, it just makes, it makes you like irritable, and then like, I think that stems into like, what is going on right now? And like, it just makes, it makes you, makes you like irritable. And then like, I think that stems into like, you just, you have a lack of one responsibility. You don't feel like you matter. And like when a lot of guys get out, and maybe this isn't directly related to combat.

I think a lot of people get this way from just doing their day-to-day job state side as well. But yeah, you just don't have a, like a, like a calling. Like you're not doing what you're, what you kind of like initially may have wanted to do. Yeah. And then, and that just like, you know, just a mental down spiral. Do you feel like they give you a heads up as to this? Because it's not like this is something new right? No, they wrote songs about it in the 60s. Yeah

Um, like did they give you a heads up at all? Like be prepared? They they kind of tell you about like the culture shock and like I wouldn't say it's like a formal setting Like it's like if you have your your old timers and like your your battle-tested dudes that have did a few pumps like they kind of like they'll like tell you about it and like my brother he was deployed with a unit called 3rd Battalion 5th Marines to Sang in Afghanistan in 2010-2011 and they got I think they got messed up like this this unit did. Like they lost a lot of people. And so, but when I joined, I had a lot of his friends like kind of like mentor me.

And when I told a few of them like, hey, like I'm doing a pump. They're like, hey, like everything's going to be fine. Like they coached you. And like, and then one guy, I remember, I won't say his name because I know he listens to the show and he doesn't want to be spotlighted, but he's just like, listen man,

it's gonna be really hard when you get back. You're gonna be around a lot of people that don't understand and they're gonna ask questions and no matter what you tell them, no matter how long you spend telling them that, they're just not gonna get it. And he it and he's like you just kind of like roll with it and so like in a way yeah people will tell you but not the army or the Marines themselves like yeah like they they treated as I mean from what I

noticed like they'll like when you when you get brought back you have to do like a bunch of debriefing So like before we could like when we got back stateside before we could go home. We had to go through like Classes and like we there's like mental tests and like computer tests to make sure like you don't have any TB eyes You think we ended up talking with a chaps traumatic brain injuries.BI? Traumatic Brain Injuries. I got it. So like, he took a test. We took a test before we left. And then when we got back, we took the exact same test and they compared results, and just to see if we were copasetic and everything that was kosher.

So we did that. We talked to a chaps. Chaps? Chaps. Yeah, we always call them chaps. Not to be mistaken for leather chaps. Um, chaps, chaps. Yeah. We always call them chaps. Not to be mistaken for leather chaps. Not leather chaps. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, we were like, and then they, we would, you know, there was counselors and stuff too. And, but like, it was more like, how are you doing? Good. Like, do you feel like you want to, they kind of I feel like the military

deals in extremes a lot do you feel like you need you want to kill somebody and like no and like so they kind of prepare you that way right out of the way yeah they're just like you're gonna say yes they're like yeah like do you feel like you have PTSD and I'm like I don't know I've never done this before like I don't know what that means and or what that looks like for myself and so they kind of do it but it's more of like a military has to do their due diligence so we don't get into trouble kind of thing and I and that's what it felt like that's what it felt like I'm not saying that's what they're doing I'm just

saying like that's kind of how it felt I mean they'll you know we do demob stuff in classes like like, like chili's talking about him and a lot of that stuff. You'll check out medically and do a bunch of those things. But I don't, I don't think that there's still the shock factor. You haven't paid bills, right?

You haven't driven a regular car or your car. I mean, if you were driving something, it was an armored vehicle or, or one of those other vehicles we were talking about earlier, or you've been flying around a helicopter and now all of a sudden you're back and you know, over, over there, you don't want to be stuck in traffic, right?

You're sitting duck. There's all these different things, or you're driving super fast and swerving on some roads and you know, making sure they're, they're not, they used to throw these things off the bridges. I can't remember if they're arcade threes or something, these, these hand grenades, um, or IED stuff.

So you, you know, you're staying on certain sides of the lane, all those things. And now you're on the freeway and you're sitting in traffic and you're like trying to, you know, just little, little things like that. No. You know, just trying to digest. Yeah.

Your combat mindset does not go away. Like as soon as your back's inside, like you're looking at everything as like a threat. Right, and it doesn't matter what your MOS was. If you were out there on missions and you were doing stuff, even from a child perspective, it's difficult getting back.

As a dad, you haven't disciplined the kids. The wife has kind of set that all up and got a routine, and now you're coming into that routine and you're kind of blowing it up now. Right. You're kind of the new guy in the house and you don't know what they've been through the whole time you've been gone.

And sometimes then you find out later, which is often upsetting about maybe they cried at night, worried about your this, but the wife kept that from you because you didn't need that when you were down range. There's all those little nuances, intimacy, right? You haven't been intimate for a year. So you've got to earn all these things.

You got to work your way back into this. And that reintegration process can be, can be difficult. So, so that's a contributing factor for sure. Um, with some of the stuff and then, and then it's hard, right? It's hard losing your friends. Um, and, and, and your life changes. I think there's something, I'll say it like this.

I think there's something that happens when you go to a combat zone, regardless of whether you were a CO or an SF in there or infantry or whatever, whatever your, your job was, your unit was, there's something that has taken away from you. And I'm sure there's probably some guys that might disagree with me, but there is something that changes in you. And then I think you start to spend your time

trying to get that back. And I don't know if that's a sense of innocence. Um, you know, you just, the world is different, right? And then you become comfortable over there. You've learned how to kind of survive and you're comfortable and you're, you're in that environment.

It stinks, especially Afghanistan. I was in Kabul and it just, it's smell, the air is real bad, not good for you. That's why guys are getting all this burn pit stuff, both, both, both, both countries, Iraq as well, but little kids are, you're driving by and they're, they're doing this. They don't want you there.

They're throwing rocks at the, at the, you know, a big hunk of concrete hitting the armored vehicle sounds like, you know, it's a problem. Uh, you know, different things like that. And now all of a sudden you're, you're back and you watch just the two year olds, you know, no diaper, no nothing, eating old rotten food out of the street. And that is it. So there's, I don't know, there's just

something that, uh, you know, I think you, I think you lose and that you're kind of constantly trying to get that back. Something changes in you. And, and I think the other thing that I think you, I think you lose and that you're kind of constantly trying to get that back. Something changes in you. And I think the other thing that happens a lot with families in particular, married couples or, or families as you get back and you, you think

you're the same, right? You the same dude here. You're, you're happy to be home. You're thankful, you're blessed. You're all those things. And then maybe someone in your family or, or a relative or a friend says, man, you've changed. Well, that's not what you want to hear, right?

So it kind of hits you in the gut, like, wait a second, what do you mean I've changed? What do you mean by that? And so then that starts a cycle. So there's a lot of, I think a lot of factors. Um, that's why I think it's good. I mean, you gotta talk, you gotta get outside. You've got to do those things.

Um, and, uh, you know, you know, I wouldn't have said this to you 20 some years ago. You know, I was a more of a hardened, you know, street cop from who, who learned how to do that job in, in a, in a bad place, in a bad time. And I wouldn't have said, you don't need a counseling or whatever. Go to this bird.

Ah, sure. I don't want to talk. I don't want to go there and hold hands and all this stuff, but I'll tell you what, man, I get a lot of those dudes coming through the door. The toughest guys from, and I'm telling you, I won't name names, but I mean, guys have been through CQB shootings

within a few months of coming up there. What's that mean? You know, close quarter, contact shot type stuff. Swat call-outs where they've been shot. I had a guy I've shot four times. I mean, all kinds of guys and some tough stuff. And they kind of have that wall up. I get it.

I was that way. Coming in and they don't know what we're going to talk about. They don't know who I am. They're trying to sniff it out. I told Corinne, for lack of a better term, just talking straight air. It's kind of like a couple of pit bulls sort of sniffing each other's butts,

trying to figure out who's dominant, who's not. That whole thing goes on. But then they realized, man, look, we're just here to love you, man. We're here to give you something for your toolbox. We're gonna give you an injection of some biblical stuff. You're gonna get that. I'm not gonna proselytize to you. I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it, just like we don't do in the army. We're not doing that. We're gonna give you something that means more than just some of the other frivolous stuff that, that's out there in the world and in life, right?

We're going to, that's what, that's what we're going to do and we're going to dig in whenever you're ready. And I'm telling you a hundred percent of the time by Saturday, Sunday, you know, tears are shed, guys are opening up, guys are talking, but you gotta have the right mix of people there. You gotta have everybody there's gotta have

some legit put in their work, right? So there's that respect level. Um, we, we, we just call it putting in work, but, um, and earning their trust and making sure it's a safe place to talk. Like the other guys want to, you know, can, can you hold, can you hold that thought mix? I want to ask before, before your specific work.

So just something I'm not clear on. Yep. Um, when I was laying, when we were talking about suicide, people having troubles re reintegrating. Um, I know just from being friends with you that, and you've mentioned it, you do a lot of work with police as well. Another first responders.

Right. Give me the, give me the version that is happening with cops who do go home every night or they go home every few nights, whatever. Like what is that, what is that version? Cause I remember a buddy of mine, not even a cop, a buddy of mine, Greg, who's a firefighter. He told me a firefighter has a greater chance of dying by suicide than he has a dying in a fire. Yep. I also said to Greg one time, kind of a dumb like question I'm sure he hates hearing, I said how many dead people have you dealt with? He said what do you mean?

I said like how many how many human bodies have you interacted with? He goes, hundreds. Right? And you have to, like, there has to be a connection there, right? But from your perspective, like, it's not that you're reintegrating from another country. What is the reality that, from your, from your work, what is the reality that these guys that are in American society, like what becomes so hard for them? I think it's the trauma exposure.

You do. A hundred percent. Okay. And it's the having to compartmentalize that stuff. And then I think as you get older, I actually think as you get older, it hits you harder. And that's just more personal experience.

Your mortality comes into the site pick quicker. Right. Starting to get older. You've, you've seen all this stuff. Maybe you've been able to block it out. You just keep rolling high op tempo, block it out, next call, next call, next call, baby, not breathing.

Okay. Had to deal with that. The baby didn't make it. Okay. You know, besides the fact that I, you know, you gave it mouth to mouth, then you go to a fatal crash, just an accident, but kid gets run over and you're investigating that.

Then you go to a shooting, okay, a drug rip off. Okay. I can kind of, I can kind of compartmentalize that, shouldn't have been messing with dope. Right. But you compartmentalize and go to the next one, the next one, the next one. And it just stacks up.

I like to use the bookshelf example, right? You take it, you put the book on the shelf behind you, you just keep doing that over the years. And you're rolling, career's great. Everything's cool. Family's cool. get, you put the book on the shelf behind you. You just keep doing that over the years and you're rolling careers. Great. Everything's cool. Family's cool.

And then all of a sudden the bookshelf falls over. You got, where are you going to put all that stuff and it's all coming, kind of coming, coming down on you. You start thinking about things. Um, you got to maybe a little more time as you get older, you know, you're having kids and grandkids, whatever.

And, and that, some of that stuff starts piling up on you. And, uh, I think that plays a role as well. And, and, and then those questions, maybe it's a little guilt and shame. Maybe it's, man, I wish I could have done more. Why didn't I do more? Or why is everybody killing each other?

Oh, you know, these kinds of things start, start coming up. Um, and law enforcement there, they lose folks too. Um, I remember a young deputy getting, getting killed, um, when I, early on, when I was down working Lennox and we rolled leapfrog, tried to get over there. He was working out of Firestone station and, and

uh, got shot up good. And, and I was just in was just in patrol school with him. Good guy, great guy. And it happened. It doesn't happen every single day, necessarily, where I was working, but it did happen enough to where it bothers you. And I just think dealing with all that trauma and not having outlets and healthy coping mechanisms, such as the outdoors,

such as talking to people and talking to someone. I think spiritual fitness, spiritual resiancy is huge. And I put it this way, Steve, I think this is important. Think about a carabiner, right? You guys probably use carabiners. Everybody's probably used one at some point in their life. In order for that thing to work,

right? You got to screw it down. You got to hook to something stable, something you trust. So if we use that term and we say, okay, where's our hope? If our hope is the carabiner, what is it connected to?

If it's to the world, it's going to hose you. It's going to screw you. If it's to yourself, you're going to fail yourself. If it's to other person, usually they're gonna fail you at some point too. But if you've got some spiritual fitness, my personal opinion, if I hook that thing to the Lord

and I study, I may not always understand why he does what he does, I may not always understand the reasons or the timing or whatever, you know, and I'm not here I'm not here to, to preach. I was just sharing this with you from my own personal experience. I'd rather- You were invited here to talk about your world.

Yeah, yeah. I'd rather, I would rather hook that to have my hope hooked to something like that. The one and only do they can, they can truly help me. And in the end, when I, when I'm not taking none of this stuff with me, nothing's going with me. Right? Nothing.

Am I going to roll the dice with eternity or am I going to try to spend my time in my life on things that have eternal value? Things that are kingdom oriented to make a difference, be a difference maker in somebody else's life on behalf of the kingdom. Cause I'm a sinner and jacked up just like the rest, right?

We're just all trying to help and love each other and get, get through stuff. And so, so that's the question, the challenge I always ask my, where's my hope hooked to? Is Shane trying to run his program and trying to control his life and every aspect? Sure. There's days where I do that.

And then I realized, okay, let's say this whole thing ain't up to me, but it's that faith. It's that, it's that spiritual fitness. And that's why it's even was taught even in the military as some of the resiliency skills is there's a value to that spiritual fitness or spiritual resiliency helping you overcome the challenges that you're going to face in your life. So it doesn't necessarily even have to be, you know, I'm going to tell you what I think is a good way and what I believe, but if it's not and it's a different faith group, but you've got that spiritual resiliency, I think it matters.

I think it does. It can help you get rid of this bookshelf piling up and having that spiritual strength, I think, is a big deal. When you, when you host a group of individuals, you're usually hosting a group of individuals who know each other. Is that true? Usually, not in all cases. I'd say the majority of the time they know each other or of each other. Yeah. Yep. And sometimes with vets, it doesn't necessarily work that way, but, um, you know, depending on what they're involved with, we might have

a team of vets come out that we're all involved in some major stuff in Afghanistan or Iraq. And then they'll know. I don't want to like violate what happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's privately, you know, off the road from my house when you're doing your work, but

like a group of people come and they're, they're using the, those probably using those coping mechanisms that you're talking about, meaning the coping mechanism might be like the bookshelf behind you. You know, they're, they've been doing that. Or alcohol, right? Or, okay.

Right. Alcohol or substance abuse or sex addictions or affairs or wherever they're getting their adrenaline from. Yeah. There's gotta be more like, maybe at first you'd be like, well, let's cook some burgers and we'll shoot some bows. But I mean, how do you even, how does the conversation get started? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So the way I do it is I've got people I can

trust in various agencies in various regions. Um, for example, dudes that I know are legit that have been through the storms, um, you know, put in their work that people respect. That are equally yoked with the mission. Make sense? No. Okay. So equally yoked, they're on board, right? They equally yoked with the mission. Make sense? No. Okay.

So equally yoked, they're on board, right? They're on board with our mission. They understand it and they have access to some of these agencies more so than I do because I'm up here. Oh, when you say they're yoked with the mission, your mission. Yes.

Your mission of helping guys. Right, being equally yoked, right? So it's a kind of a theological term, right? When you got two oxen, if they're not equally yoked, they're not going to be able to plow. So everybody's equally yoke and they're recruiting people to come up different struggles they've heard about or know about.

So they're hitting them kind of off the side. No one's getting spotlighted. No one's getting, this is a very like in the trenches program. We don't care. We're not looking at, okay, we need 200 people to come through this season. We have a steady take.

We do small intimate groups so we can really make the most maximum impact in the time they're here. Um, so the dynamic when they arrive, so they kind of have a little rough idea, but I'd say most of the time they don't really know how it's going to go. You got to earn their trust and that starts

the moment they get off the plane, right? You know, my job and they, sometimes they don't really know how it's going to go. You got to earn their trust and that starts the moment they get off the plane, right? You know, my job and they, sometimes they don't realize I'm doing this, but my job is to size them up and they're, they're going to size me up to figure out, okay, body language, what do they say? What do they wear? And what are the, you know, and you're

not judging, you're just trying to, you're trying to get to know them on a little more intimate level, right? So you can better, so you can better help them. And they have to know that like these guys have to know you've been there. Yeah. Oh yeah.

They know. Yeah. They'll know they can go to the website or they can ask around or they can talk to these. I mean, like, I'm sorry, not, not just knowledge, but psychologically it matters that you've seen the things they've seen. I think it matters.

For them. I think it matters. I think, and that goes back to that put in work, um, statement. It's the same with vets, right? You'll, you'll, you'll be more comfortable with someone who's been down range maybe than someone that hasn't. Regardless of necessarily even what they did,

but they, they embraced the suck. They were there. They were separated from their families. They were there. Yeah. Yeah. So it's similar to that. Um, they come in, man, there's nothing tough.

We're going to give them a tour. We're going to talk about the schedule. We're going to do introductions. And that's where I think the icebreakers come when we start doing introductions. You know, where do you work? You know, tell me about your family, those kinds of things.

But the funny part is, man, and I can't explain it any other way than this. As crazy as it sounds. And, and some of the listeners might be like, I don't know what he's talking about, but when they come through the door, first of all, when they make a decision to come up there, there's a sense of vulnerability that they have. They're showing up. They know at some point we're going to talk a little bit. They're not going to be forced to, but that's the deal.

They're starting to recognize that they got to make some changes in their life, right. And, and step up. Um, so some of that's already going. And my belief is God's preparing their hearts well before they show up. I'm talking the toughest, most of them don't even have a religious, they don't have

to have that to show up there. That's not a requirement. It, it starts before they get here. They get here, they come in, we relax, we give tours, and then I just open it up and explain, listen, man, we're, I'm not here to, we're not judging, we're not, we're here to let you get some rest, hopefully you'll get something out of

it, we'll go outside, we'll do some fun stuff, you get to shoot some bows and, and, uh, and we'll dig in a little bit. And it's a good time to do a self evaluation. And I just tell them straight, it's a good time to do a self evaluation and a gut check. I think it's healthy for us. And I can only speak from a man's perspective is, you know, we're most of the in-ear men, but you got to gut check yourself from time to time and figure out

where, where am I, what's the purpose of this life? Where am I going? You know, what's going to happen when I go to die? You know, what does that look like? It's just over. Okay. You know, how am I, how am I with my relationships? How am I with my kids? All of those things.

How am I with my job, my peers? Those are all, all things that, uh, that we talk about, but it's a good time. I think it's important to gut check yourself once in a while. What kind of a man am I? What do I really stand for? Because we're all gonna get older and then that's gonna be the question, right? And you invite people to ask these questions of themselves.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll pose the question. And a lot of times, sometimes guys will jump in, sometimes they'll just listen intimately. Um, listen, then, then when it starts, the trust is earned, it'll open up. They'll talk about an incident. Um, maybe it was on a SWAT call.

Maybe, you know, one of the guys got killed and they're in a stick and I got to step over him and keep fighting. Maybe they'll get into that. Maybe it's a family thing. Maybe it's something they feel comfortable to talk about, about a bad situation with a parent or, you know, whatever.

Um, it's a safe place for that. And there's a lot of, you know, so many people run by our place and, and, uh, drive up there and I think if they knew the cool stuff that's going on down there, that's private, what goes on there stays there, but the, I think some of the ministry work and the massaging of hearts and loving on people, I think they'd really be shocked.

You guys are incredibly low key. We like it that way. In our neighborhood, no one... Until I came on the show. In our neighborhood, no one knows. No one knows. Right, no one knows. No one knows. Right.

No one knows. You guys don't have, your trucks aren't marked. There's no sign. We've got one vehicle that's wrapped. Oh, what is it? Okay. Yeah, it's on the. Oh, no, no, I'm sorry.

Yeah, you're right. Just the one. But there's no like. We're all about being low key. I'm always like, you know, that place up there, it's like, they run that nonprofit for first responders and veterans. People are like, what? Yeah.

I'm telling you right there, man. It's amazing. It's about being low key. You won't see us in town drinking beers too much. You won't see us. Uh, you're not going to see us out pushing this and pushing that. We're just here to put in work. It's old school.

How many guys, how many guys come, how many guys come through your place? We get about 70, sometimes a little more a season. Yep. And we usually run from May, depends on the snow and kind of what's happening, but it was May to November 1st. Yep. And we reset, we used to go every other week, reset clean kind of for us to kind of, you know, for me, mentally and emotionally, just also for me to kind of, for me, mentally and emotionally, just also for me to kind

of clear my head and my staff, my volunteers, give them a break. Because getting volunteers sometimes to come help out and teach stuff when it's sunny and Bozeman and it's on a weekend, right? That can be tough. And then everything's fundraised for, and that gets tough. But every year we seem to just get enough to keep, keep rolling. And so I just, just keep the faith, man. I just keep, keep going.

How much is doing that work its own? You imagine like, you mentioned like having traumas, how much of that work does that to you and the people you work with? You mean what effects do we get from here? And all that stuff? Yeah, I mean, does it wind up being, does it wind up being kind of circular where you, not that they lay it on you, but like, here you are 70 people in a, in a 70 people through

the course of the summer lay on you all their horrific shit. Right. Do you know what I mean? Does it, does it feel burdensome or does it feel like it cleanses you in some way? Oh, I think I'd be lying to you if it's not burdensome because I think our natural reaction is to take on, to help people to sometimes try

to take those on, but it's not my deal. It's, it's not, it's not my caper, right? It's God's, I gotta give it to him. I'm just there to facilitate that. And that's how I treat it. But your heart does break for some of them and you think a lot about them and you keep them on prayer lists and you stay in contact, all those things. But to watch a, you know, it's good for me and I think it's good for my staff to hear this, to hear from them and to give back in that way. I mean, we're serving those that serve us, right?

So it's super rewarding. Like it fills the cup big time. Um, and it, and it definitely helps me personally. Brings back a lot of memories sometimes for me that I have to sort through afterwards. Um, but, uh, I think it's circular in that way and in a positive, but I also think if you don't, if you don't deal with the way you should

deal with it, then it can be too burdensome to you, um, similar to downrange, right? I try, when I first lost those two guys and for whatever reason, I would, you know, a lot of times I would stand when there was, if I wasn't going on a mission, we had these secret briefing tents and the convoy would go out. We have convoy security was kind of our

primary thing, right. Which is sketchy because you're rolling down all the roads and, uh, and we had, I was in there later at night and I'll try to work through this here, but late at night is one of my last ones. So I would go in this briefing tent for different chocks that were going out. I would sit in the back in a chair by the door.

They give their secret brief on the routes. This one's black, this is red, whatever, and kind of go over the mission and how things are going to roll. Well, this was the last one of the night and I had a close relationship with some of these guys. I won't get into why, but with kind of these main ones that were involved in this particular incident. So at the end, I go chaplain, chaplain stands up, everybody stands up.

You give them a pep talk. You give them some encouragement, man, because let me tell you something. When you have an opportunity, I don't know of anything more humbling that's happened to me, maybe the birth of my kids and those kinds of things, but my marriage to look in the eyes of a young soldier who could be sucking on a Starbucks latte, but they're downrange, embracing the suck, serving their country, dirty and tired. And you get that opportunity to love on them.

I don't know what's better than that. And so give them some encouragement, maybe read a Psalm or verse, pump them up. Cause you don't know who's not coming back from that deal. I mean, just don't, it's a roll of the dice, right? And that particular night, um, I had for

whatever reason, I, I usually would stand back by the door when they're done and they're leaving and just hug them, smack them on the shoulder, tell them I love them and, and uh, you know, I'll see you back by the door when they're done and they're leaving and just hug them, smack them on the shoulder, tell them I love them and, and, uh, you know, I'll see you soon or tomorrow or whatever, everything will be fine. Well, for whatever reason that night, I was

focused on these one truck and, uh, one, we call them trucks, but one group. So you got a driver, TC and a gunner in that truck and, uh, I hugged them, shook their hands and, and I was having a lot of interactions with them for some other things going on and, um, in a positive way. And, uh, and I told them, they're like, hey

chap, and we'll see you tomorrow. And I said, yeah, I said, you're going to be fine. I prayed everything's cool. You guys, you guys go out there, do your thing, man. We appreciate you serving the country. We love you. going to be fine. I prayed everything's cool. Guys, you guys go out there, do your thing, man. We appreciate you serving the country.

We love you. All those motivational things. And then two hours later, you know, I'm getting woke up at one in the morning or whatever and, um, running to the TMC and, and, uh, they're hauling for me to get back there and they're bringing one of them in on a gurney and he's all blown up and, um, tourniqueted out. And, and then I don't see the other guys. And then now I got a medic hugging me crying because we lost those two guys. We didn't know I got company commanders and two, I mean, it's just kind of

melee that I'm trying to deal with. But the one, the one young man, he asked me something that was interesting, and he said, he's laying on his gurney, and he said, well first he says, hey Chaplain, and he's still alive today, great kid. And I said, hey man, I should be asking you that. And then he realized what was happening, and his legs were in bad shape. And I said, he asked me this, he said, why did God let this happen? And still to this day that question haunts me, haunts me from a few perspectives.

I don't have the answer. One, two, he just, he was sizing it up and realized he was in trouble and where's his buddies? Because he didn't know. And I didn't have it. I didn't have anything. And I was thinking, okay, Lord, you gotta give me something. So I just said, hey, listen, man, I don't know. I said, but God's got you, I got you, and I ain't gonna leave your side. And I give you my word, I'm not leaving your side. And so I stayed with him until they shipped him to Germany, or Balad, than Germany. with him until they shipped him to Germany, but, well, it blotted in Germany.

Um, but I struggled with that the first few days in particular. I mean, I still kind of struggle with it just because I had said something that I don't think I should say again. Did I give him a false sense of hope? Right? Yeah.

Like maybe I shouldn't have said those things that way. So I had to change what I said. It's not up to me. It's just not my deal. Yeah, that's a good point. Who, who comes home and who not up to me. It's just not my deal. Yeah. That's a good point. Who comes home and who's, you know, it's just

not my deal. And so I had to, I had to change that up. Like you gave him an assurance that wasn't yours to give. Right. Right. Yup. And I, and that's the one that I still remember

everything about that night to this day. And there was other wounded people and other things, but that was our first one. And I said those words. So I just, it was a learning lesson. How did you change your words then? In the future? You just, you just would say, Hey, you guys are doing great work.

You focus on the positives, go out there, take care of business, we're with you, whatever you need, you know, more encouraging. I wouldn't promise them even though I didn't realize I was doing that till after mortality, like promising them survival. Yep. This is not my call. And so I had to change that up. And there's many other chaplains

that have similar stories about, you're just trying to give them some encouragement and that's why you're in there. But you know, they've got to trust that chaplain when that chaplain's praying. They got to trust when he. They gotta trust when he stands up back there, or she stands up. There's gotta be a sense of, all right, we're gonna be good. So there is some of that. But saying the words, I think, was,

I just didn't do that anymore. Figured out a different way. I got a last question for you. Your place where you work is just like this gorgeous property. Yeah. You guys got like a big Creek. You got looking off at the mountains, trout pond and big meadows and it's beautiful. Do you, do you feel that?

Um, I mean, obviously you do because you do your work there, but what is that? What is that like natural environment? that natural beauty to be there? Is that, is that helpful? Um, and getting people to want to go, or is it helpful in getting people to getting people to open up? You know, I think all three, I think there's, it's a yes to all three, right? I think, I think one people want to come to Montana, you know, I mean. I think all three, I think there's, it's a yes to all three, right? I think, I think one people want to come to Montana, you know, uh, they, they want, they

want to come up here and experience the beauty of it. I think they go on there and they see the place and they're like, you know, obviously enamored with that beauty. It's quiet. Although, you know, sometimes now with some of the traffic in the winter, but we don't run as many groups in winter. So, um, but it's quiet, although, you know, sometimes now with some of the traffic in the winter, but we don't run as many groups in winter.

So, um, but it's quiet. It's away from the chaos, right? It's a, it's a good place to gut check yourself because you can focus on stuff and, and the beauty and, and, uh, you know, we've got a chef that comes in and cooks and, um, make it comfortable. Um, but yeah, the beauty is huge.

And when they wake up and it's quiet and they're looking at trees and they're seeing animals and a lot of times those moose, I don't know what it is about those moose. Yeah, those moose duking out in your yard. Oh, they, they're fighting in the front yard and guys are like, you know, I had one fireman, uh, Long Beach fireman, great group, man.

Every person that's been through it has just been fantastic, but we were sitting out there, and we do campfires at night, like a little bonfire, and just kind of get to know each other more every night. And we had started early, so it's still light. And we look over, and this fox is jumping, just like you see on Nat Geo, right? He's jumping, he's snatching mice up and out of the grass.

And I'm like, wow, that's cool to see that. And this young guy was so pumped, he said, I'm gonna see how close I get. He gets his camera out and he's... And he must have got within 15 yards of that. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. And that sucker just kept doing it over and over. Those are those kind of things that really add to...

Or bears will walk up. We've had bears. I've been doing a chapel service. So we do chapel service. It's optional. You don't have to go. I'm going to offer it to you, right? Just going to do a quick 10 minute, 15 minute good word of the day. If God needs communion, get communion as well.

But 99% of the people come to those. We've only had maybe one or two that weren't of the same faith group and that's fine. And they were cool about it. And this happened a few different times. But one time in particular, I'm doing the service and all of a sudden everybody's, I lose everybody. I'm like, I look out and this black bird is

looking through the window. He's watching, he's watching me and he's watching the, of course everybody, Mag, you know, went right, then that sucker got, he was comfortable, he was too comfy. He cruises around the backside and he comes up to the front door. I mean, just like he lived in the joint.

I've had a lot of bear issues as you know, I had a lot of bear problems over there. Yeah. Scared off cubs at night. Used to get in my cans, drag a can 40 yards into the brush, um, tear it up my barbecues on the back patio. I mean, just, yeah, a lot of bear issues, but yeah, that's it.

I think that the natural beauty, the wildlife, I think the Montana feel all those things are play a role in calming people down. Yeah. A hundred percent. So if, if, if people out there, first responders, So if, if people out there, first responders, service members, like if there's a group that feels that coming to see you might be good for them, like how do they proceed?

And if people that are outside of that, they're just listeners that want to help what you guys do, how do they, how do they proceed? Yeah. The best way is they go to the website, uh, all the stuff's on the, on the website. Um, if they've got a group they want to put together, there's apps they can fill out on there or they can just call. So you go to task, task force heroes.

Taskforceheroes.org. Yep. Um, donations the same way they could. But a group of guys, a group of active, like active people can go and say, Hey, you know, me and some of my colleagues or whatever would like to check on the possibility of coming out.

Yep. They could do it that way. They could, there's an email through there that comes directly to me that they can say, I got seven guys or like I said, we try to, try to make it intimate and smaller. We fill up real quick. And, uh, we fill up real fast and we're

dealing with some maintenance issues right now that we're, we're fixing. Cause we had a water leak over there and some other stuff, but, um, yeah, that's the, that's the best way to best way to do it. And how about people who want to support you and help you? That's another best way.

Send an email, make a connection with me. I mean, they can get ahold of you. We're, we're right there. We see each other quite a bit. So any of those ways, um, that that's the biggest, you know, that's the biggest, you know, it's a hundred percent free for these, these folks and, uh, you know, flying them and

feeding them and cleaning and getting them here and all that it's operation costs are fairly steep at a place like that. But we want to make it a once in a lifetime experience for them. Good food, cook them wild game. A lot of them never tried elk or deer or turkey, any of those things. I mean it's been amazing. I mean one time we got a turkey right there on the property and smoked it

up and they got to eat fresh turkey. It was great. Do you guys deal with your nuisance bears on the property too? We deal with those. Yeah. We have dealt successfully a few times with bears. One, 404 pounder. Over 400, man. 16-year-old bear. He's a big sucker. And I sent that picture of that big fatty we had.

You were like, his response was, man, you got a lot of good bear grease out of that sucker. I was like, what? was, man, you're gonna give me a lot of good bear grease out of that. I was like, okay. I was like, what? I was like, what? A lot of bear grease. Do that area when those cherries down along the... They tear those things up. I mean, they're all over the...

They're like all over the place, man. They just vanish. Really? Yeah, they just vanish. I've never harvested a bear, maybe... They come down. Yeah, well, they... The next nuisance one you have.

They stand up and they'll, you know, they reach up and pull them down and they'll just suck them all right off the limb, man. That whole bottom end of that canyon, when the chokecherries come in, it's just bears all over, chokecherries go away, bears are all gone. Yeah, they take off.

And then those wax wings show up, clean up the chokecherries, and it's the end of the whole program. Yep. But it's a little rush, it's a little flurry of activity in September. Yep. And wounded deer from getting hit.

And we get a lot of that. You know, my wife running out going, you gotta kill that deer. I'm thinking, well, I got one tag here. I, you know, it's a little spike or something with three legs. And she's like, you gotta do something. So we get a lot of that stuff. So yeah.

Any more, any more other questions you had, man? No, man, I'm glad you came on. And like I said, I just, uh, you know, it's been nice to, it's been nice to meet you and then, um, just the little bits I've picked up about the work you did, I was just real impressed by it, man.

And then one time you invited me up to meet a couple of your guys and I could just tell going there, you know, as short as I. And I could just tell going there, you know, as short as I was there, I could tell going there, I just could tell you had like a very special program going on. Yeah. It's very unique.

I could tell that the guys that were there were, I don't know, man, I could, I could see why they're there. I could see what they were getting out of it. You know what I mean? It was just, you create like a really, like a, I don't know, man, like a, just in that little bit of exposure, I had you create this kind of amazing bubble for people,

man. Yeah. Like a picture being hard people to get to talk. Right. I appreciate that. It's not just me. It's, I got a great team. I got a great board of directors.

They're all either former or veterans that are still serving or active military folks or, you know, I got a lot of LAPD guys on there and guys from different places in the country. And great board, great volunteers, man. We couldn't do it without all them folks. And then, you know, when we moved up here, we just went all in, all our furniture, all our stuff. You know, I'm not saying that toot my horn.

I'm just saying it was a huge commitment. We didn't know anybody really in Montana. And we got here about almost eight years ago. And we're just like, okay, Lord, you got to do your work here. And we filled up that first season in like three months. And it's just amazing stuff. So my wife for sure and kids that sacrificed a lot to make it happen.

So we'll just keep on pushing forward. And I appreciate my relationship with you, man. No, just being real. It's a, it's been, it's been good. And I mean, this guy helped me for hours, try to find my Hebrew and scripted, uh, wedding band. I lost it. We were out there, the metal detector, being

my kids and man, we found, you don't realize how many, uh, 22 casings are on the world. I'm sure you know it's funny I was actually one of the camera guys I'm working with on this history channel show he had filmed like he worked for a long time on a metal detecting show oh man we gotta find it I was picking his brain about that and he was saying that like these dudes that host that show would have no problem mopping up that ring, but man, we got... Maybe you need a car.

I had that thing made. Yeah, I'm not like a metal detector, but me and my kids were out there and we dug up more garbage. We were rocking it. That's a nice looking place for so much garbage, subsurface, shotgun shells, everything. There's a lot. It's like, God, people could... Trying to find a ring here, man.

Yeah. That's a lot of 22 cases. I had that thing made in Israel, like hand-made in Israel, and my wife's got the matching one and I'm like, here, man. There's a lot of 22 cases. I had that thing made in Israel, like handmade in Israel. And my wife's got the matching one. And I'm like, oh man. Maybe someone who's out there is a real metal detecting enthusiast. It's like, you know, so Shane walked out of his house. He generally walks along the side of his driveway. You walk 300 yards. Yeah. Well, I left the pond. We used the pond just to let guys, most of them never fly fish.

So just to get them to cast and catch something just so they get the feel before we go to the creek or we go off-site. And I kept getting hooked with stuff and just trying to get, sometimes guys will get snagged. Guys got something in his ear or something. And so you're working through that. So I took it off, I put it in my pocket,

walked around that pond back to the house and then I went to take it out in my room and I had a hole in my pocket. And I'm like, so somewhere in that stretch. Yeah, it's like not 300 yards long and it's maybe a 10-foot wide, 20-foot wide path. But it thwarted us. If you think you could find it, if you are a metal detecting enthusiast and a professional, you can write us at The Meat Eater podcast, at themeateater.com to offer your services. And if you find it, we'll put together, I'm just going to throw this out there. If you find that ring, we'll put together a generous care package.

Yeah. But you got to say, we're going to vet you first. We're going to vet you yeah, say we're going to vet you first. We're going to vet you. Definitely vet you. Definitely vet you. Yeah, we're going to do a check in. You got to send us your medley tech and bona fides. Right.

Exactly. You need a CV as long as Shane's. The property owner check in. Reverend Shane Yates, former cop, current military guy, Chaps. Well, I appreciate it, man. It's the CEO of Task Force Heroes. Thanks for coming out, man. It's humbling.

I appreciate you guys, each of you. You know, it really is, uh, what we do is humbling and I'm just blessed to be able to do it and, um, and, uh do it and blessed for all the blessings I've gotten in my life amidst all my own struggles and own stuff. So, privilege to come on. So thanks for the time. Thank you. Thank you. I'm telling you man, there's nothing quite like it.

It gives me chubby just thinking about it. You hit the call way off in the distance, a time fires back. You work them in watching his body language shift from cautious to committed. Then that moment, the one every turkey hunter dreams about all winter is that gobbler locks eyes in your decoy and comes running in. And if you're using the right decoy, you don't need then settle for a 40-yard nervous shot because with the right decoy you can get that bird in your lap putting on a wild aggressive turkey show I mean I'm talking where he's fighting the decoy I've had him sitting there

trying to mate with the decoy it's the best thing in the world but to pull it off you need realism like you need decoys that don't just fool turkeys at a distance. You want a decoy that fools them when he's up there at point blank range, beating the snot out of it. That is why diehard turkey hunters insist on Dave Smith decoys. Their unmatched realism fools even the warriest of toms into thinking they're staring and fighting a real bird and unlike inflatable decoys that crumble when shot

DSDs are built tough they last season after season even if you screw up and put a little TSS into one of them to top it all off every DSD turkey decoy is made right here in the good old' US of A. Made in America. Check out the full lineup at DaveSmithDecoys.com and take your turkey hunts to the next level.