The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 686: Gobblers, Fatherhood, and Steve’s Next Hit Song with Lukes Combs

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Luke Combs, Seth Morris, Chester Floyd, and Austin "Chilly" Chleborad.  Topics discussed: The finer details of wild turkey management; how to lose listeners; how Steve has a song idea for Luke; nice vs. funny; when you don’t know if you’re gonna be alive long enough to fill a trash bag; the rules of pitch meetings; turkey numbers in the 90s; suppressing Turkey harvest; hating and boning out-of-state hunters; turkey DNA; parenthood and bandwidth; how Luke’s kids think he personally knows every famous person; cleaning up after yourself; the number of songs on a record; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Turkey season is here and it's time to break out those calls Every serious turkey hunter knows every bird is a little different. You never know what will get them going You may need a trusty old box call Light purrs from a pot call or maybe some sweet yelps from diaphragms to seal the deal on that old gobbler But sometimes the hardest part isn't calling them in it's finding them in the first place That's where our locator calls come in. From crow calls to owl hooters, we've got everything you need to get those shot gobbles out of those old toms unwilling to give up their position.

Get fully geared up this season with the best tricky calls in the game. Check out the full lineup at felpsgamecalls.com and make every call count. count. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything.

The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. Joined today by Luke Holmes down in Way south Texas. Also here is Seth Morris, Chili's here, and our very own Chester the Divester, who hasn't been on the show as much lately since relocation. Yup, been in Wisconsin, bought a home, fixed it up, had a kid, another one. Damn Chester.

Been busy. Dang, double-dipping. What we were talking about before we began was we're talking about the problem of, uh, Luke was saying that he's not there yet on losing on his old man, losing his body. I don't even have the vocabulary for this. Readers needing readers, needing cheaters, needing readers. Yep.

Yep. And I was, I wanted to share this. I wanted to share it for the audience in general. So I told Luke to hold that. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. But you know, It's a thing.

You're not there yet. Not there yet. You were talking about, but you now and then. I find myself doing the squinty thing where you're like, or it like, it looks like you're like almost kind of trying to smell something.

Like, Do you head bob? Do you do a little in out? No, I don't do it. No, I haven't done that yet. Unless I haven't picked up on it. When I first realized it was happening to me, I found that over your whole life, okay, if you go to like pick a sliver out of your kid's foot or read something that someone's showing you like a pamphlet. I don't know what the hell someone hands you something to read. Your body knows right where to put that son of a bitch.

Interesting. Cause it's the same decade after decade. Right? So your kid gets a sliver, you know, right where you want their foot. Right. To see it. You know right where you want their foot right to see it All of a sudden for me it wound up being that I

Would go to my normal spot and that wasn't any can see it right like you're you're Sort of your brain hasn't even adjusted to the fact that it happened yet You'd go to your normal spot, and it wasn't right, and then you had to search for the right spot Yeah, that's interesting. I've considered that. Does your body know now the spot? It's better. It's better, but it changed it for a while. They're like 44 years old, whatever the hell it was changing so fast. My brain couldn't adjust quick enough. It makes sense. Like if I go to look at my watch, there's a certain like, you know, where you want

that spot that I go, but then, you know, if there's, you know, there's different stuff on this, on the dial that you can look at somewhere, I'm like, what is it? Like if I wanted, like I got to kind of get it at a certain like spot. If I want to check out the little tiny words on there or whatever, you know, there's nothing you can do about it Man this is gonna be like Luke you got to bear with us here. This is gonna be probably This is gonna be a test case in How to lose listeners, okay

Okay You know, they tell you don't talk about religion. Yep. Politics. Yep. You fixin' to do both? Well, no. I was like, you're going to all those places.

No, religion, politics, and then the finer details of wild turkey management. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. I think there's a very interested population. I think there's, I think there's, I think there's a very, very interested population. Okay. I think it's, I think it's niche. I think it's a subculture, but I do think there,

the people that are interested are going to be super interested. Yeah, I do. I do think that. Oh, you know what I was going to do, what I want to do too, Luke, later, when we turn the show over to our intense focus on you, Luke, is I wanted to bring up

with you the other day I was telling you yesterday I was telling you I have to do it I'm not gonna do it because it's secret but I was telling you at some point I need to do the worst thing that could happen to a musician is to come to you and say hey I got a song idea yes we did discuss this Yeah, and I didn't do it you did and I can't do it now because in the whole world is gonna write this song That's true, but now the people now people are gonna wonder though Let me throw you different tidbit right here. Yeah, you ready for this? I'm ready. My buddy Pat Durkin was telling me

how My buddy Pat Durkin was telling me how at his age when he takes not like he starts to think about if he's taking on a big writing project mm-hmm he's like you know enters the back your head it was like am I really gonna be doing this what do you mean? What do you mean? Career wise. You know, I mean, like at a certain point, like if someone says like, hey, do you want to take on a like a large project? You'd be like, shit, I'm pretty old. I don't want to take that on. How old? It's pretty old though. What are we talking here? I don't think he's

late 60s. I don't think he's pretty old. He just made a comment. Yeah. This is all build up to the song idea. Okay. It's a different song. Okay. Different song I do. And he said, he was telling his friend,

well, I can't tell you the one, it's Moe's idea. Got it. I ran it by chili. Chili? I mean, when he said, Moe has an idea for Luke about a song. No, no, no. I just like an idea.

Yeah. When you first said that, like that's how you started, I was like, I'm not a country music star, but I was skeptical about, you know. Because his problem was there was no words or music. Yeah. But that can present a massive challenge in the world of music, for sure.

And then he told me the the idea and I was like I've heard a lot worse ideas. It's a great idea And but I'll obviously let him usually if somebody's private in private Usually if you tell you run an idea past someone and they say I've heard worse. That's good. That means it ain't good No, you think that's like good way good. I've heard worse. I think it's how you say it. I was telling my kid recently, I'm going to get to this, but I'll sell them recently. We're talking about, you know, he's getting of the age, you know, where there's like boyfriends

and girlfriends. I'm like, dude, when I was your, when I was a kid in high school, the worst thing they could say, like the worst thing they could say, like the worst thing girls could say, he's nice. Ooh, yeah. Now, if they said this, if they said he's funny, that was a good sign. Yeah. Yeah.

He's nice. Like he got to be nice. Brutal. Like don't take me wrong. Yeah. But like at a time it was like, if someone says like, Oh, I think you're nice. You're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Frenzo I feel the same way when someone calls me cute at 30.

I want a girl calls me cute. No, that's a good sign. I'm not, I don't know. I just feel I can see that. I could see how that could be a mixed bag. Yeah. I could see how it's you. You like could go either way. Yeah. So here's this hit. This hit. And listen, man, it's not like I haven't thought it through as much. In fact, I had it in my notes. Something I thought was funny. And I don't even think about it being a great song. Right. So now it's a hit song. Great song. Pat Durgan song

about bringing up to a friend. I don't know if I even want to take a big project out at my age, you know, and his friend said some weeks I wonder if I should be starting a new trash bag. Starting a new trash bag. Meaning is he even going to be alive long enough to fill a trash bag? Oh, alive long enough to fill a trash bag. Oh, God, that's that's real sad. That's not a lot of time. That's like half a day. Scrap that song. Yeah, I don't want you to. I don't want that song. I do have color. The other song. I would say that I blew my chance.

Like who in a pitch meeting, who in a pitch meeting comes in and starts with the loser? You came you kind of came to it's like real excited. Like you got into that. Like I knew that when the idea was coming, cause your voice got like real pumped about it, you were like, yeah. So he was talking about this, you know, I don't want to do this. And then at my age, I started a trash bag yet.

And it's like, Oh my God. I broke pitch meeting rule. Number one, man. Well, you always come in with the hot one. You come in with the good idea. If you're like, if you find the audience is losing, you're losing the audience. Then you start throwing wild shit out there. No, but you come in with the refined one.

Lucas saying you started a song with a title. So, and then, you know, I do fans on trash bag. No, that's the other song. Yeah. Trash bags. All the other song has a title. Yeah, that's all that one. That one doesn't even have a title, dude.

The other one's at least farther down the line than that. You know, OK, now we're going to we're going to talk about turkey regulations. And Luke, you've had some observations about turkey regulation. We're going to get serious here for a minute because the reason these turkey regulation things are of interest is because I think that we're seeing, um, anyone in the country is interested in Turkey hunting. I think this is all relevant to your life because I think we're, there's a trend emerging and we've, we've touched on this before on the show. There's a trend emerging that, that, that

turkey numbers in America, like when you get into the future, we're gonna look at turkey numbers in America, just in a general America sense, as being like this precipitous, no, precipitous always means down or can it be a precipitous incline? Oh dude, you're that's, that's author stuff. Yeah. You're asking the wrong folks. Wrong crowd. A, if you look at like Turkey trends, you're going to see the nineties come in.

We're going to get to the 1990s. 1990s. Right. And you're going to see just like Turkey numbers just, we're talking in a hundred years when they make a chart showing turkey numbers in this country, they're going to be like in the nineties, with all the reintroductions and introductions, early two thousands, right? It's just going to be like, boom, boom, boom. That's the noise of climbing. Boom, boom, boom.

It's the roller coaster going up. And it's going to hit like the, the hay day of Turkey hunting. And I have, I don't know, Clay Nuka, maybe he'd be able to tell you where he, like in Arkansas, where he's at, I think Dr. Mike Chamberlain would be able to tell you the official like peak moment. And then it's down. Sure. And it'll go down and I don't know that anyone knows where it's down. Sure. And it'll go down. And I don't know that anyone knows where it's going to end level.

Yeah, I mean, we were talking about that yesterday. It's like you like we feel like it was like, man, a couple. I don't know. Is it set like six or seven years ago? It was like. Smashing, dude. I mean, Tennessee, you could, you could kill four birds. Yep. In Tennessee. Now, are you talking, this is nationwide?

Yeah, because there's always outlier things, but I'm just saying like, if you, like, if you go to some of those areas that became, if you go to some of those states that became just like early famous Turkey states, you know, like places that always had pretty good Turkey hunting, but just blew up like Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa, right. Um, where Turkey numbers just went crazy. Yeah. And then this whole, it's kind of appearing to be like death of death by a

thousand cuts kind of thing. And it's going to like lower Turkey numbers but there's actually terms for this and there's terms for this in biology there's terms for this phenomenon there's one thing called one guy calls it founder effect there's other names but when you bring in a new population of animals and introduce them they explode they explode because they're they're coming in and like, they're occupying a niche that wasn't occupied on the landscape. That's really good for them. Predators aren't tuned into them yet. You might be moving in a group of animals that is disease free

and they might contract local diseases or become impacted by diseases over time. So when you bring something in, it's just like the general truth of it is, is they take, they take dramatically and shoot up. And then predators over time are like, Oh, I figured out how to kill these things. What you do, right? In April, I know to go look in that brushy shit and it's full of eggs, right? And it takes them a while to figure out how to do that. And then all this stuff happens and you lose. So what you're seeing right now is, and again, this is just generally,

what you're seeing right now across the country is like generally game management agencies, generally speaking, tightening way up, way up on Turkey Harvest. So we talked about, I gotta put on my spectacles. Doesn't seem like it down here though. I got a thing on my phone of song ideas, I gotta pull it up. Just gotta find that right spot. Yeah.

Okay, let me find this thing here. We talked about South Carolina on a recent podcast episode during our turkey week and uh, let me see here. And got a guy real mad at us. Here it is. We're talking about South Carolina, how they have done. And this is another thing that happens in South Carolina. They used to be able to shoot Jake's. Okay. Yep.

No, you can't. And in South Carolina says no more Jake's and, uh, on the show we kind of laughed about I observed on the show I was like if you really want to save like breeding-age birds you'd make it illegal to shoot long beards but of course you can't do that because that's not what anybody that piss everybody off no one wants that so you're like being like yeah no one's you know that excited about shooting jakes. Maybe we'll make it that you can't shoot jakes and it'll help. And we handle, well, a guy wrote in who is livid about our handling of this. Okay. Says the media podcast came out, they brought up our new

turkey laws and completely fucked up the explanation. They harp on the Jake ban and say our purpose of the Jake ban is to increase breeding and beat on us. That makes no sense. But here's, here's some other things that's happened in South Carolina. They already did change the season dates. They made the season start later and they made it shorter. They lowered the bag limit.

Okay. In addition to this, Tennessee's done this as well. So South Carolina first went in. So the statewide season now starts April 3rd. Previously, half the state started March 22nd and half started April 1. So when part of the state and half the state, they move the season to 12 days later because the thinking is states are killing turkeys too early and it's impacting breeding.

And there's like the kind of, we mentioned, there's this kind of emerging idea in Turkey management. It'd be like, hunt them as long as you want on the other end of the season or hunt them longer on the other end of the season and stop hitting them. Right at the beginning. Right at the beginning. Right. So he said they not only did that, um, there was a recommendation that the entire state should be April 10th.

But the legislature didn't go for it. Before April 10, where it is open early, you're only allowed one bird. They used to run two staggered 40-day seasons. So they used to have 50 total days of turkey hunting season because they managed the state in two chunks. So they used to have 50 total days of turkey hunting season because they managed the state in two chunks. So they used to have 50 total days of season. They dropped it to 31 days of season. Lowered the overall bag limit from three turkeys to two turkeys. So point being, I'm still dying.

You know, I was dying when we talked about this originally from, from a cough. Point being, they've done a ton in South Carolina to like suppress turkey harvest. Yeah. And that's, I think that's happening in a lot of places, you know? Another one we talked about that we didn't get right. This is like the correction section. We were talking about in Florida, you know every state, every, no matter where you're from in every state you always hate non-out-of-stateers. It's generally true. Yeah, no one wants, you know, no one driving around hunting wants to see an out-of-state plate. You hate them. True. Yeah, I know. No one wants, you know, no one driving around and hunt wants to see an out of state plate.

You hate them. True. Yeah. You just hate them. Yeah. Maybe that's more of a Montana thing. Sounds more Montana. Well, it's Florida big time. No, explain. Really? Florida. They hate them. So, uh, Richard Martinez, who I've hunted with in Florida, wrote into correction. They were, Florida was considering a, um, Florida was considering this new thing where on certain wildlife management areas, so certain public land areas, residents get first cracks. So you wind up having two seasons,

resident Turkey season, non-resident Turkey season, which again, that's their call, man. Like I don't even think a non-resident has a place to complain about it because wildlife's managed at the state level. Right. So he says, here's what he says. He says, I want to clarify that the rule banning non-residents actually

landed at nine days. Cause public feedback said bone in non-residents by three days isn't boning them enough. They want to bone them more, three times worse. Yeah. However, it only applies to five management areas. Those management areas being over the counter management areas. That makes sense.

Yep. If it's a draw management area, this is what I was saying, where you really start losing listeners. That makes sense. Yup. If it's a draw management area, that's what I was saying, where you really start losing listeners. This is public. Public management areas. You can see some dude driving along with his wife, right? And he's like, Hey, I want to check out your podcast, you know? And it's skittin.

And then now he's like hoping something good happens. His wife's going to like settle in you know Yeah, and then she's sitting there. You know Yeah, we're like well was gonna be nine days. You know, it's three days and it's actually nine days And she's like, oh man. He's like well now hold on that's only Over-the-counter WMAs, right? Over the counter WMAs. Right. It's like, now he's like, dude, I might as well just change it.

That was something she wanted to say too. The limited draw WMAs are a totally different story. We're going to get into that in the next half hour. Yeah. He's like, no, no, no. We'll keep listening. Yeah. He's like, just hang in a minute.

You know? Because then they're going to start talking. They're going to start talking to Luke. Luke's going to be like, I'd like to offer a few finer points. Yeah. So he goes on. talking to Luke. Luke's going to be like, I'd like to offer a few finer points on it. So he goes on. It's not over yet. This new staggered turkey hunting season thing, and again, I'm only bringing this up because this is stuff, this is like wildlife management stuff that will, wherever you live, will wind up impacting you because states learn from each other.

Right? Like states try stuff and it's effective and other states pick it up. Like they don't live in little vacuums. And so in figuring out how do you allocate resources and how do you do things, these are all like little playbooks and this idea of having. Everyone's familiar with looking at a regs and being like, Oh, I'm a non-resident. I got to buy extra shit. That's extra expensive.

Or I'm a non resident. I can, uh, you know, have a lower bag limit than a resident. Like I'm only allowed one Turkey, but a resident can kill five. What's up with that? But to enter it, this new thing, if it's emerging is, Oh, I'm a resident. I start hunting on this day. My dear opening date is this day and I got 10 days and then the non-residents show up, it's like, this will become, you know, if it's effective, it'll become.

Where's the, in, in Montana, I'd rather have it go the other way. Yeah. That they got to quit that like Nonresidents get like the first two weeks of the season. Yeah, I For just for turkeys or for deer everything. Yeah for turkeys. I'd want the top end Yeah, I would want top end of turkeys, but I'm mostly Taking it now. We're picking and choosing. Yeah, you know, well here's here I'll tell you a little something this this will give you a little insight into my inner psychology

is whenever another state bones non-residents, I get a little agitated. But when your state does it, you're like, get the hell out. I get excited. Get everyone out. Do you think, that's all speculative stuff, but do you think there's ever a point

where states are just like nah man no no no turkey wise like or any any species wise that they'll do what to where they could they could potentially just go we don't we don't want any non-resident hunters at all the what what unless you're unless you maybe work own your own land or something yeah you know if you went for non. Yeah, if you went to the if you went to the hunters That'd be widespread but from the agency's perspective they can't cuz the money. Yeah right all there cuz they they most most states like this is something that that Isn't as widely it's definitely not widely known in the public. Right. Like hunters know this, but in the public, it's not widely known is state game

agencies in most States, uh, the handle everything like, like law enforcement, disease prevention, habitat improvement, all this stuff, like their money comes from that. Licenses. So when they can go and like you get your turkey license for 30 bucks or something, but then you get all these dudes that are paying hundreds to hunt turkeys, and then hunters like no more non-residents. The agency is like easy dude. You're like well we kind of want those guys. We lose like we'll lose the, you know, well, we have no funding if we can't

sell non-resident tags. I'm telling you, man, there's nothing quite like it gives me chubby. Just thinking about it. You hit the call way off in the distance. A time fires back. You work them in watching his body language shift from cautious to committed. Then that moment, the one, every turkey hunter dreams about all winter, is that gobbler locks eyes in your decoy and comes running in.

And if you're using the right decoy, you don't need to then settle for a 40 yard nervous shot because with the right decoy, you can get that bird in your lap, putting on a wild aggressive turkey show. I mean, I'm talking where he's fighting the decoy. I've had him sitting there trying to mate with the decoy. It's the best thing in the world, but to pull it off, you need realism. Like you need decoys that don't just fool turkeys at a distance. You want a decoy that fools them when he's up there at point blank range,

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So what he's saying here that goes on is there's this place called Big Cypress National Preserve. I've been down there, not hunt, I was down there with a turkey hunter but I didn't hunt turkeys there. Excuse me, fellas. opening weekend, twice as many non-residents as residents, partly because it's because you hunt Osceola so damn early. I think dudes are like, I can go hunt Florida. Yep. Seth did this son of a bitch. He's like, I can go to the problem, the problem.

I can go to Florida and still get home for my own opening day. Yeah. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you go take someone else's research? Problem. Part of the problem. So I can go to Florida and still get home for my own opening day. Yeah. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you go take someone else's resources, dude? Florida, Texas, Montana is not even open yet. Yep.

So in that one, in that unit where they got twice as many non-residents, this is a little hot tip alert. If you live in Florida don't let Seth come on no that's not if you live in South Florida next spring when you go down to Big Cypress on opening day you can expect to see a two-thirds reduction in pressure. Wow. Two-thirds reduction in pressure. I'd be excited if I was a resident. Now here's another one. I think this is it for turkey rules. Is there one more turkey rule? Oh no there's one more turkey rule. no there's one more turk there's turk this is turkey dark we're covering turkey dark spots like bad turkey stuff or you know and then we're gonna get positive and light it's like a it's like a gospel

sermon we you break them down to build them up. You go down, you know, you get in the dark and then you come out of the darkness. Where was I? Oh, this we're coming out of the darkness now. Okay. Do you guys remember when Florida had their bear hunt and just got beat up? By people now want in the bear season? Well, what happened in Florida is this is it's a great story we talked about in the past but like

Florida had no bear hunting for a long time. Their numbers got real low and also just got like many places Going to this kind of general trend right now and I'll stop all turkeys down black bears up Yeah, up up up up up. Yep up everywhere. Yeah. Up, up, up, up, up. Yep. Up everywhere. Yeah. So Florida does this quota hunt. Seth, can you mind pulling up real quick what year Florida did their bear hunt? It was some years ago now. Very contentious. All the animal rights people just just been out of shape about Florida doing this bear hunt. They decided to do a quota hunt. Not a limited draw hunt. Not a not a limited tag draw. Right. It's just like a cap. Everybody go out and once this many

have been tagged it's over. Right. And they and because they hadn't had a bear season so long, they had no idea about what efficacy rates would be like. And they put in that as they approached the cap, there's a 24 hour leg, meaning it's like, let's say you're like drawn down on a bear at, at, you know, let, let's say the cap gets hit at seven 50 AM on the second day and at seven 52, a bear walks out and you shoot the bear. Is it like, did you just break the law? Right. Cause there's no way you could have known.m. on the second day and at 7 52 a bear walks out and you shoot the bear is it like did you just break the law because there's no way you could have known yeah right so it was open from 1930 to 1994 it closed until 2015 for one season and then it closed again can you pull up what the quota was. Yeah. The story is they way overshot the quota.

Like how much? Like he'll pull it up. The quota got hit and then people had like 24 or 48 hours or whatever. And by the time it was done. So half like, I shouldn't say half, people that know a lot about wildlife management looked at this and they're like, man, a lot more bears than we thought. It must be a lot of bears. Everybody else looked at it like, they killed all the bears. Right. And it was just done. Public sentiment was like that they blew it, they ruined it,

they had no idea what they're doing. They killed way more bears than the quota. Yeah. And they haven't hunted bears since 2015 What are you finding? I'm pretty sure that happened with wolves in Wisconsin. So it's we were talking about that last night It's broken into four different management units East panhandle north central and south and

then there's harvest objectives which is east panhandle 40 north 100 central 100 south 80 and what they wind up with six something or so east panhandle was 40 actual was 114 but north north was 100 actual 25 oh central 100 actual 143 okay and then south 80 actual 22 oh so they didn't really go over then wasn't even that Well, in some spot they went over and to piss everybody off. Anyhow, um, you know, I was sitting there one time with a guy. I don't want to name his name, but I'm sitting there in Florida. And I wound up in a house of a commissioner who grew up all kind, did all kinds of hunting and the commissioner was telling me he voted against that bear hunt. I'm like why? Just worried about public

opinion. Right. Exactly. That was he like laid it out sitting talking to me face to face that he voted against it because he's worried about public backlash. Not nothing to do with bears. Worry about public opinion on him. Right. Now Florida is getting ready to take another shot. Florida's getting ready for another shot at a bear hunt. This is from Richard Martinez. You know he does for a living. Take a guess. I don't know. Throw something out there. I mean, I'm guessing, I'm guessing that it's, I'm not going to guess it. Probably. Just.

Musician. No. No. He's an art mover. So close. I'm closer than I thought, really. Like if you buy a really expensive piece of art, and you need it shipped from the, from the, where you bought it from to you Richard Martinez so he's like a like he's what runs a niche shipping business to some other way to put it yeah I like that that's cool yeah it's interesting business you know it is you get to see art get to handle it I think about that a lot I'm like there's so many niche

jobs that exist that you wouldn't even think of. As I drive into places sometimes, I'm going like, look at all the people that live here. Like, what? All these people are doing some kind of job. It's not like, when you think of all the jobs you know in your head yeah off the

top of your head my kids there's so many more than those you're like astronaut detective firefighter police officer restaurant person and then that's like done yeah that's it dude I don't think about like the guy that's like, done. That's it. Yeah, that's it, dude. I don't think about the guy that's manufacturing the insulated foam inside of an airplane liner. Or like, that's the thing that's happening, dude. Exactly. And then he's got the kind of people that have jobs that they didn't know that was the job

until they applied for it. Yeah. They're like, oh, shit, that's a thing? I'll do that. They're like, yeah, I could pull that off. You know what I did? I mean it. Yeah, that's right. Chilling. At the December commission meeting, the commission requested, I'm back to Florida. Okay.

This is Richard Martinez telling me about what's going on in Florida. He's a very Richard Martinez is the, is the kind of, uh, the kind of guy that if every Hunter or Angler in every state was like Richard Martinez, we wouldn't have any problems. Extremely dedicated, very successful, but also very involved in all this kind of stuff. Right. Interesting.

Very involved in policy and like making his statements and having his voice be heard and talking to other hunters and like, what are people's concerns? How do we address the concerns? What's how do we, you know, approve the resource? He's got a job, he's got a family, wife, whatever. He's got a job, he's got a family, wife, whatever. But at the same time, he like, he is, demonstrates like an exceptional level of curiosity and involvement with his area.

And he's not one of those, they, you know, blaming everybody for everything all the time. They took our jobs. Yeah, he's not sitting all bitter. You know, like he's not sitting all bitter, right? They took our Toms dude. You know, yeah. So at the December Florida game commission meeting, the commission requested staff to put together a proposal for a hunt next season. Staff will present their proposal at the May 21st meeting in Ocala. Is that a place?

Yeah, Ocala. Yeah. We're encouraging everyone in support of the hunt to attend. That's a good way to like make the protesters kind of like kind of swell the numbers, you know, like the people that come to protest, you're like, well, these guys showed up. They must love. They must want the bear hunt to go on. Oh, you know, like the people that come to protest, you're like, well, these guys showed up. They must love. They must want the bear hunt to go on. Oh, you know, Everyone that's in support. Yeah, the thing is going to attend. Yeah, like look how many people showed up for this for this parent

Yeah, if you're there no signs by the way, they're there for the bear hunt stand right next to and act like you're with someone That's there against it and yell real loud. Yeah, like those two fellas right there excited. Yeah, man look at those guys. Those guys are pumped about it. Yeah, everyone there supports Bears in one way or another. If you're in support of Bears, doesn't matter which side you stand on, show up to the event. Yeah. Come support the Bears. Come support the Bears. Last thing. I mentioned Dr. Michael Chamberlain. He's a Wild Turkey expert. The Wild Turkey dog. I met him.

He's been to the show. He's an awesome guy. If you go way back in the archives, Chamberlain's been on the show once or twice. He did one of my favorite episodes ever and he explained when they were doing a turkey predation study in this area. Where they went in and they wanted to see the whole inner workings of the complex of wildlife, right? So they would put collars on everything. They went into this area to do like they had all these collared turkeys or some kind of track. I think they glue a tracking mechanism on a turkey. They glue it to its back feathers and then went in and they put collars on like

raccoons, coyotes, whatever. They wanted everybody in town to be wearing a thing to see how they're all interacting. And then when a turkey gets killed, when you get a mortality signal from your Turkey, you can go in and try to figure out what happened to the Turkey. But also you also know where your other collared stuff has been hanging around. My, one of the favorite wildlife studies that I'd like to cite, and I brought it up a thousand times, I'll bring it up again.

Now they did one of these in Alaska one time where they tried to come into town and basically collar everybody. They had a collared moose fall into a crevasse in a glacier. One of the grizzlies that was wearing one of their collars climbed in there to eat on it, got stuck and died in there with the moose. One of their Wolverines that had a collar on it, got in there and ate on the carcass and lived.

So they had this whole collar interaction that you can watch. Well, Chambran was talking about when they did, if you go back and listen to this episode, he tells it in great detail. They did one of these and they had a breeding pair of great horned owls come into their area. And he said you couldn't keep a collar alive on anything when those owls showed up. They killed everybody. Really? You know, they killed everybody. And they'd smoke those turkeys. Like when spring gobblers, when a gobbler gets up in the kind of half light goblin up

in his roost tree, he's got a bull's eye on him. I wonder, I wonder why though, cause they're not like eating the turkeys. Are they? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, he said they'll blast them so hard. Only reason I say that is because my parents had a bunch of chickens killed by the owls

and they weren't even eating them. Oh, just kill them for the hell of it? Yeah, anyways. Well, you know what, maybe they, if I remember, I could be screwing it up, I could be screwing it up, but what he talked about, the thing that tickled me about it is he said that great horned owl smokes that turkey so hard out of a tree when you go out there.

The turkeys laying way off from the tree, but it's feathers running from the tree because he's hits them full speed, like knocks them out, blasts them out of that tree, uh, Mike Chamberlain, they are doing a, so they're getting ready to work on this project. Um, a DNA project with wild turkeys. All right. Uh, we had a research around the podcast one time who's working on a duck DNA program and the duck DNA program to refresh people's memories. The duck DNA program is looking people's memories. The Duck DNA

program is looking at these kind of like fake ducks that game farms put out in certain areas. I didn't even really know this was a thing, but like in the East and certain it's a thing like guys that want that have like these little duck hunting spots and they take clients out. They're just raising mallards. I had no, I hadn't heard of this. I haven't heard of this. You know, like doing that with pheasants. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's pretty common. It's a thing with ducks. I had, I didn't even know this was a thing. Someone told me once, but I didn't really,

and where is it? Where's it happening? Like, I know it happens a lot in Chesapeake Bay. Interesting. I think they're doing it a bunch in Ontario. You raise ducks in a pen. Right. And then you just kind of get them set up in your little area. And then guys come out and like pretend to hunt the ducks.

We didn't pretend to hunt them. Well, they hunt them, but. But they're. Yeah, it's just like. They're just kind of like. They're just around. Pet ducks almost. What happened was,

and one time I was down hunting a sea Cir in Maryland, they were going over a bridge. Bucket list time for me. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Well, I had plans to do it. I had, we actually had, we were going, I had a trip planned to go do it. And this was probably in 20, probably right

at the end of 2020, going into, I think it was going to be in January of 21 and ended up, I think I ended up like getting COVID or something. You should take this up with me in a little while. And, um, um, we have had, uh, just a fantastic time doing that. And I have someone I would like to introduce you to. We got, I, we got hooked through, my bus driver grew up there.

Oh, yeah. In Maryland. So I think it was actually. You still got the same bus driver? Yeah, still got him. Yep, Larry. Larry, yeah. Larry, guy, he's a man.

He's a good dude. He's a great guy. And yeah, so he knew some folks that had access from where he grew up and stuff. But I think it would have been when you guys went and did that on meat eater was the first time that I had seen that. Okay. And I was like, I got this before we had I before I had been on the show, or we we knew each other. And I reached out, I asked

Larry, I was like, Hey, man, you know anything about these? And he was like, Oh, yeah, man said, we got those things all over the place. Yeah. I was like, oh, how do I do that? He's like, I just call my buddies from high school and you go up there and do it. I'm like, oh, cool. It is one of the easiest eaten deer in the world, man. Really?

Oh my god, they're good. You can just take the front legs, like't do this with any kind of thing. You take the front legs and put it in a smoker and pick it apart. Really? Yeah. It was we're down there hunting, we're down there hunting sika deer and it was the fall right? I remember going over a bridge on this little slough or whatever and there's just mallards everywhere under the bridge and they weren't like laid out like how massive. It just something was weird about it. And I even said to my buddy, I'm like, I can't believe all these mallards.

And he goes, Oh, no, those are release birds. Cause they were just like arranged in the, like under the bridge and like arranged in a way that just didn't look like what ducks would do. Yeah. So this duck DNA program is, is these ducks that these guys are putting out are breeding with wild mallards and their offspring act weird. Their offspring don't know when to migrate, don't know where to migrate.

They don't behave right. They get predated on at a way high rate. They're stupid. And so they're doing this DNA project to find out, well, these guys that are dumping these birds out, that they're then breeding with wild mallards and impacting all kinds of things about mallard biology. It doesn't seem like that would be legal. The whole thing surprised the hell out of me.

It's a big thing for these guys. The big thing for them to be able to want to do it. So they did this DNA project. Well, they're launching a new DNA project on turkeys where they're gonna to be nationwide. Hunters are going to have a chance to submit. We'll keep you informed on how this works. They're going to have a chance to submit, um, turkey DNA.

And here's what, here's what is of interest to them. You know, when you're looking on social media, whatever, during turkey season, everybody's got all their crazy turkeys and you're seeing dudes that got like Wild-colored turkeys or this is happening to me You're like there's a flock of turkeys going by there's a white one in it Um or people that will say oh I like hunting in Kansas because you can kill a eastern and a Rio Together you kind of what the hell does that mean? Oh, I like hunting in Kansas because you can kill an Eastern and a Rio together. And you're kind of, what the hell does that mean?

Well, doing a big, uh, doing a big Turkey DNA project where hunters all over can send in a sample and then they can map out because one of the things they're looking at is like all these weird color phases where are they coming from and probably like hair like not probably is it like heritage breeds of turkeys? Is it farm turkeys? But the thing you gotta that makes this interesting to think about is uh like if you're sitting there picturing what is the original like you take a cow okay like cattle what did cattle come from cattle came

from a thing called a wild animal called the Oryx or sheep domestic sheep came from I think they came from mouflons horses came from a Siberian step horse. So now when you see like a horse standing in someone's pasture, you're watching like the Indianapolis, uh, no, what do they call that thing? Big horse race, Kentucky Derby, Kentucky Derby, Indianapolis, you know, Kentucky Derby tonify. And you're like, what is this animal?

Like I've looked at that horse is my whole life. You ever ask yourself, well, what did it come from? Sure. All right. It's an animal like the Eurasian step was like that animal. When you look at cows and all the breeds of cows, like what the hell they come from. It came from a wild animal called orcs, all pigs, like all pigs, a big pink farm pig. They're all called Susscrofa.

Susscrofa is like the ancestral wild pig. All pigs came from the ancestral wild pig. They're all still called Susscrofa. It's all one species. What's cool about turkeys is turkeys is a rare thing, is a rare domestic that if you went to Poland, just pulling it out of thin air, if you went to Poland and there's some white turkey standing there, that turkey is a descendant of our wild turkey. Like when the Spanish came and, you know, quote, discovered America, they got wild turkeys,

which had been domesticated by indigenous people, brought wild turkeys back to Europe, turned them into all these crazy turkey breeds and then brought them back here again. Right? Right. So like all turkeys on the whole planet come from here. Turkeys. Right. Uh, so they're trying to, you know, maybe puts together some map of how this all went down. That'd be cool. Yeah, that'd be neat. So we'll keep people, um,

keep people focused. You might be on the meat Eater Live soon, right? The Turkey Doc, I think. Oh, is he coming on? Maybe he's gonna talk about this. Yeah. Luke, you know how in, like, I don't know, certain disciplines,

we're talking about having all kinds of jobs before. In certain disciplines, work will interfere with one's ability to do their hunting and fishing. Yes. Like a friend of mine, uh, he's a, uh, MLB baseball player, right? And there's this thing that happens. Like if they don't make the playoffs, it's game on for deer hunting. And if you make the playoffs, you're screwed. But you also like- So you hope you don't make the playoffs so you can deer hunt.

And he says, no, that's not a thing that I hope. Yeah. Like you don't, you don't, it's like a, it's sort of a, it's not what you want to happen, but if when your season ends, you do start deer hunting, but you never hope your season ends to go deer hunting because that would mean you weren't. Right. Probably an MLB player.

Right, right, right, right. You were something different. How, in your world, how do you, do you try to line up to, like, are you aware, are you like, man, I can't tour during deer season? Or do you just do work first and then pick up where you pick up? This current calendar year is the first year I've done that.

I was supposed to do a set of shows. I won't say which. A set of shows in November that have now already been completed. Because I was like, I don't want to do that in November. Really? Yeah. Did you tell people what you were thinking?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I just literally told them, I was like, no, that's the middle of deer season. I'm not going to do that. Because I haven't had a really great deer season in six or seven years. Because we're always touring heavily. So it hasn't been as bad the last couple years because you know we've been playing in NFL stadiums

Obviously you can only really do that During the offseason and obviously NFL is really kicked up in the fall, so you can't play those venues in the fall Because they're not they don't do anything other than then their stuff in the fall Usually barring some weird scenario or something. But so yeah, we hadn't had to worry about it. And this year it was like, hey, do you want to go do this international stuff? So it's not only, it would be different if it was like,

hey man, do you want to go do like three weekends in November and do shows on Friday and Saturday? It'd be like, sure, that'd be fine. Because I could go, I could hunt at home or I could go hunt somewhere for a few days and then go back on the road or something. But it was going to be overseas. So just miss the whole deal. And I was like, at this point, I'm just not willing to do that.

Now the shows have already been done. We did the shows. We just moved them to a different time. And so it's not really like, I've never canceled any shows to Hunt. No, and I never would. So do you look at it, if you start to manipulate your, if you start to like, manage your music career around your desire to be outside, is that a sign that like, um,

is that a sign where you're like, man, I've like arrived that I can actually start to manipulate my thing or is it that man, I'm just getting of the age where I'm starting to recognize what my limits are and what's important? I think there's a bit of both in there. I mean I think obviously it's a super luxury to be able to do stuff like that and it's not something that I have ever it's never even been in the conversation until a year or two ago. It's like well how do we you know because it felt like every year we'd get to season and it was like, oh boy, like we're not going to get, you know, we're not going to get to

get to do the thing. I think the difference was, you know, before it's like now I kind of have some of my own spots to to go do some of these hunts that I want to do, you know, because I that's something that's been in my my grander plan for you know spending time with my kids too right is to hopefully you know hopefully they fall in love with it as well so I wanted to have spots where I could take them and not have to be dependent upon somebody else to invite me somewhere or you know let me go somewhere have access to their you know resources or whatever it may be so So I have my own places now.

So I wanted to work that into my plan of like, okay, well, eventually, this is something that I wanna prioritize because it's something that I enjoy. And it's an activity that I wanna do with my kids. So, I mean, I think it's just part of growing, right? And evolving as a person. I mean, I think it's just part of growing, right? And evolving as a person in a phase that I'm in at life now is completely different than it was five or six years ago.

Five or six years ago, my career was really, really on the insane roller coaster to the absolute top. Now it's more like now you're at kind of at cruising altitude right and all your and all your work is to like maintain where you are but this is the same amount of work but there's not really much like there's not really anywhere else to go there is no more like it's like an airplane can only go so far. Yeah, you know, it's like kind of reach the max altitude. And then it's like, you can't really, you can't really climb anymore. You

just have to maintain, right? So it takes the same amount of work that it did to get there as it does to just stay where you're at now. I mean, and so you have to kind of evaluate, we were talking about this last night sitting in the chairs is like you know when you when you have kids right like you only have so much bandwidth to deal with things in your life with everything that's on your plate that you want to achieve or things that you want to do hobbies career and then you you know you throw your kid you want you have

kids you throw that in the mix you know. That to me occupies a ton of space in a good way. It's like I want to be there for my kids. I want to be involved parent. I want to be around and help take care of them and be their dad. And so that eliminates a lot of other stuff that you don't have the bandwidth for now. Because all the space that you had before is now almost cut

in half. So now everything else has to fit into the half slot. And that's your job, and that's hobbies and things that you want to do, priorities that you have. You have to kind of re-prioritize where everything else sits. Because the kids and the family come first. They have to come first, you know

And then job for me is it has to come second, you know So I have to this and that might be 40 to 50 40 45 percent of the 100 percent and families 50 so you're left with 5% You know and you're like man, what do I you know know what I mean? Like how did my pie out quite so carefully? That's a good, that's a good way to look at it. But you're going like, well, so then I begin to think, you know, with, with the hunting stuff as well, how, you know, it's something that I love and you know, something I hope that my kids love and I hope to get them involved into, but we talked about it last night. Like, is it this inherently

like selfish practice to want to get your kids involved into the things that you love? Yes, it is, but it's, but it's, it's done, but it's good though. Yeah, for sure. It's, it's, it's dual purpose. Yeah, it's dual purpose, right? It gives you then, then some of your bandwidth for family time and time spent with your kids can also be, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily come out of the 5% that's left for you. It goes into the, you're getting two birds stoned at once, as I like to say.

You know what I mean? And it's- Do you remember with PETA? PETA, like people for the ethical treatment of animals, they were trying to get people to stop using expressions like kill two birds with one stone. That wasn't a real thing. No, it was. animals they're trying to like get people to stop using expressions like kill two birds with one stone. That wasn't a real thing. No it was and it was like they're offering up alternatives I think but they would love that one. Yeah get two

birds stone at once. Yeah they're like trying to put a instead of like oh you got your cart ahead of your horse you know well that implies the horse has to pull a cart which is mean. Yeah. So you should change it to like, whatever. Hell, you did a better job than they did. Just sitting there right now. I'll just take that one. You know what, you know what I, when you thought about is it selfish to, like, is it selfish to want to get your kids into hunting and fishing? If that's what you like to do. And I've thought about that a great deal.

And I don't think that, I don't think I'm like overdoing it. Right? I'm having a hard time talking right now. Like picture that you're trying to rationalize buying some stupid vehicle. Oh, I don't have to picture that. No, yeah. And you're like, you come up with crazy shit, right? You come up with crazy shit.

You're like, wow, yo, really what I need it for is picture that there was a lava flow, you know, and like we got blocked in by a terrible lava flow. Yeah. Well, now I, you know, this, and, and like, we got blocked in by a terrible lava flow. Well, now I, you know, this vehicle would write and you come up with insane shit to try to justify impulses you have. I don't think that when you go like, well, I want to get my kids in the hunting and fishing is that selfish. Cause that's what I want to do. Um,

it's also super like healthy. Yes. Yes. It's like the sing it. It is so, there's so many things in this world that people are into themselves that getting your kids into it probably wouldn't be as healthy as getting your kids outside in nature away from screens. Yeah. Like selfish didn't mean necessarily bad.

Yeah. Oh, no, but I mean, inherently, like, there's some, there's, it's really like self-serving. Like, if all your kids got way into hunting, if it's like all of them. It'd be the craziest thing in the world. Exactly. You're being a good parent. But that would be mission accomplished, dude. Yep.

It doesn't mean you're not being a good parent. You're still being a good parent. Yeah, you're doing all that. And like, there's even another one. I try to make the list of all things like physical activity outside all this, right? Like learning about your environment, learning about seasons,

like being exposed to life and death on the farm, right? All these positives. I also thought of this where I was thinking, whatever your passion is, I think it's productive to expose your kids to like intense enthusiasm. That's a good way to look at it. Like to expose your kids to like, what is it like demonstrate to them what it's like to just like love something and not just have it be the world is just this sort of.

Well, me and my wife were discussing this one night, you know, being a musician is such a like fickle business, you know, and eventually everything that goes up comes out in the music business, right? Whether it's just the constraints of time where it's like, you know, a new generation of listeners is coming in and they're like, oh, that guy's old or whatever,

we don't listen to that guy anymore. You know what I mean? Like you eventually, you know, you become like kind of a, like legacy act is kind of the term that's used, right? Sure. So me and me and my wife always discuss, I'm like, you know, sometimes if I'm having a tough day, I'll be coming through the house, I'm like, I'll I'm having a tough day, I'll be coming through the house,

I'm like, I'll just be done. Like I'm stomping around like, I've burned my egg in the skillet and I'm like, why don't I just quit music? And she's like, what are you talking about? And I was like joking about it. And we're sitting down talking kind of about it in a more serious way one night after we had put the kids to bed and had dinner and you know, as I was almost like she was almost just kind of letting me vent, you know, and I was talking to her and I realized I'm like, man, like, you know, like, one, like, what would I do if I didn't?

like, you know, like one, like what would I do if I didn't do, you know, what would I be doing anyways, if I didn't do music, you know, I'd still be just, I'd be doing music. I should be doing it at home instead of, you know, I'd still be doing it in some ways. One, but two, it's like my song about that. It's true. I do have a song about that. And my kids are like, I am, my sons are two and a half and one and a half, you know That's at the date of this recording, you know, and it's like They've never seen me do My thing ever like they don't know Mmm, they don't even know dude, you know what I mean? Like they don't even yeah, that's a good point So I like I have no idea because like I don't want that I don't want you know

Their dad which is me right like I don't want their dad like for them to know me as like Essentially like a retired guy. That's like no. What does your dad do going up? Oh, he didn't do anything And like what do you mean? Well, like I don't't know. He had a job before, like before we can like remember and stuff, but he doesn't, doesn't work now. Yeah. He doesn't fry a good egg though. Gosh. Perfect. Not even really that, you know, you can't even really do that very well, you know, mess him up every once in a while. Yeah. He gets stuck on the cast iron and when he doesn't, when he gets too impatient to preheat it, right. You know what I mean? He doesn't let it heat up slow enough but it's I and so that ultimately was my conclusion you know to

my own kind of mental conflict was like well I don't want to like I don't want my kids to know like me is like a lazy guy who doesn't do anything like I want my kids to see me do things at a really high level and pursue the things that I set out to achieve. And I want them to see me enjoying doing that. I want them to see me struggle doing that. You know, like I want to expose them to all the gambit of emotions, you know, and because, you know, I watched, I watched my parents go through that stuff. My parents just weren't successful musicians. You know, my dad was a maintenance man and my men and my mom worked at the bank. And so it was like, they, you know, they worked

so hard at a, at a job that they didn't even love, you know, and that taught me so much about, you know, that led me to where I am, you know, my parents always pushed me to have a job that, to have a job that you love because we did it, you know, that led me to where I am. You know, my parents always pushed me to have a job that, to have a job that you love because we did it, you know, and like you can, it's such a, such a life hack to have a job that you love. You know what I mean? I think it's one of the biggest life hacks out there, man. You don't have to hate your job.

And I think as a kid, a little bit, I thought that a little bit. Cause my parents didn't love their job. You know, they'd hate it, but it wasn't like, you know, mom didn't wake up and go, God, I can't wait to go get down to the bank today and sit at the desk all day and deal with people's mortgage paperwork. You know, that just wasn't something she was excited about. And so I remember thinking even when I went in to go into college, I'm like, well, I better get into business because I hate that. to go into college, I'm like, well, I better get into business because I hate that. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's like, I just think there's kind of this like

little falsehood where no one really tells you like, hey, man, you don't have to like hate work. It's not something they tell you in school, or at least from my perspective, it was just like, yeah, man, like parents just, you know, parents come home and they bitch about work and work sucks and you're gonna have to work one day. So get ready. Enjoy your free time while you have it. Enjoy your freedom. Before you get in the suck of like having a job every day. Like you don't have to have a job you hate, you know. I wish people would have told me that earlier on, but I learned that by watching my parents. I wonder if that was like a sort of like a generational thing too. I feel like a lot of my parents' friends have all these jobs that they don't necessarily love doing,

but they just did it because they had a family. Maybe it wasn't as easy to go do something you love back in the day. No, I mean I think a lot of the reason that people do it is because they have to. Yeah, they do it for their kids. You know what I mean? Like my dad didn't want to strap up or my mom didn't want to strap up and go in like, but they had to because like, you know, they got to like buy groceries and, you know, they're doing it. I mean, it's a it's a thing. I think a lot of times, you know, at least if you're trying to be a good parent or raise your kids right, you do it out of love, right? Did your parents have a lot for you? Did your parents have a lot of... Did they explicitly

express love for you a lot when you were little? Yeah, for sure. My mom did for sure. I know, I mean, my dad was a little more tough exterior guy. Like he wasn't like big cuddly. Like, he wasn't like a it wasn't like best friend vibes. You know, my dad wasn't like, come on little buddy, let's go down to the fishing hole. And, you know, he's throw a baseball. He was like, I work and on the weekends, I work at home. Because we you know, we got to mow the grass and we got to weed eat and we got to keep the house nice.

And like, he was like, you know, mama, I mean, he was a, he always told me he, you know, loved me and was proud of me and stuff. He did. So there was never any question about that, but it was very like, it was just kind of stern. Like, you know, you needed to do your stuff. You need to, you know, make sure your room's clean and make sure it help your mom with whatever she

needs in the house. And then, you know, mow the front, I'll do the ride and mower. And you know, there's stuff to be done. There's things to be accomplished. You know what I mean? And, uh, but yeah, dude, it was very, it was very kind of like healthy and normal in that sense of, do you have a thing where I'll tell you that I do not curious to get your thoughts on it. Just cause on parenting, I've tried hard to, um, like it's kind of hard to explain.

I've tried hard to demonstrate like a level of humility to my kids and a level of presence to my kids and a level of presence to my kids by, by making sure that they see me all the time doing like the mundane shit that needs to happen and running a household. Yep. Right. That like, no one's above it. No. Do you know what I mean? Yep. Right. That like, no one's above it. No. Do you know what I mean?

Yep. Exactly. And so I want them to like, especially when they're little man, I was like, it need like someone needed to do it. It needed to happen, but I was like, I want them to see that, that you come in with a plan at a time and like you prepare dinner and that like with a plan at a time and like you prepare dinner. Yep. And that like, they set the table, they help clean up. It's like, no one is above any of this shit.

No, definitely. And we have, I mean, we're even doing it, you know, obviously, you know, two and a half and one and a half, you're limited with what you can do. But I mean, we even now, like the kids, you know, we live in a 2000 square foot house, man. It's me, it was two bedrooms. Me and my wife have a room now like the kids, you know, we we live in a 2000 square foot house, man. It's it's me. It was two bedrooms. Me and my wife have a room and then the kids at the boys share a room.

So it's not like you're never we're always close together. We're always tied in there, you know, with the living room is the playroom. All the kids toys are in there. And so and, you know, they got all kinds of stuff that grandma and grandpa's bottom and you know aunts and uncles and friends and stuff like that and they play in there and just I mean we let them just I mean destroy it But it's like every night. It's like all right. We're all cleaning up now Yeah, and mom and dad are cleaning up, but y'all but y'all are like to the extent that a one and a half year old You know he'll he'll get a block and bring it over

And you know, he might only pick up two things But my two and a half year old now like he can actually make he can make a five percent dent in the cleanup And he understood but he understands dude, like that's but we we make it a point to go Hey, man, like you need to help us with stuff. This is This is your job, you make a mess, you gotta clean it up. You know, if he spills his milk, we give him a paper towel, he can't really do anything, he just smears it around. And you know, we go back behind him and actually clean it up, but you know, we make him go

and he dabs the paper towel and it soaks a little bit of milk up and he throws it in the garbage. At that age, they don't even realize it's a chore, kind of, they're like, oh yeah, I don't even realize it's a chore, kind of. Right, they're just like, oh yeah, I get the help. That's pretty cool. But like, yeah, reinforcing those things all the time. You know, I think we're also discussing this

at some point yesterday, the three of us, but my life is so normal outside of like, when I'm playing shows. Like I really don't do a whole lot of anything other than I go play my shows and I come home and I spend time with my wife and my kids and I do whatever work stuff I have to do when I'm home, whether that's writing songs,

which most of the time I'm doing at my house, you know, with my friends and stuff. And I'm just there, dude. Like I'm just, I'm basically like in some ways like a like an another form of a stay-at-home parent when I'm When I'm not when I'm not on the road and even at you know when we're touring the stadiums I'm only gone three days a week So I'm home four days a week every week like full like full time, like sun up, sun down most days.

Getting the kids up, changing diapers, doing baths, cooking dinners, cooking lunches, cooking breakfasts. It's like, and that occupies a lot of my time, but that's what I want. I want my kids' childhood to feel as normal as it can, given the very strange circumstances that it will ultimately become. That's pretty cool that you can, you know, get where you've been at and are at and can still do that. Yeah, but you have to, you know, that's such, that's a choice you have to make.

And you lose a lot of things with that in the sense of like, there's so many cool opportunities that I have that are maybe, you know, would be really not really beneficial, but cool experiences are beneficial to my career that I pass on to do that for my kids. And my kids stuff that my kids will probably really never even know outside of maybe if they see this one day, it's not something I'm bragging like, I'm such a good dad, you know, like it's not that it's just that I say this all the time, like my kids didn't ask to be born. I made the choice to like, it was my choice to bring them into the world, right? So it's to me, it's a lot of dudes, a lot of

dudes don't put that together. Right? Like I would want it like I want to see here, my my impulse here is to sit here and like, talk about how commendable it is that you have the philosophy you have. And one time I was, my brother, Danny, we were talking about someone saying, him saying how weird it was that people would routinely express almost in a surprising way. He's such a good dad. He's like, how did we land in a spot where it's like worth pointing out?

Like people like are pointing out good dads. Yeah. He's like, wait, you mean like, you mean I'm not sociopathic? That's great. Dude, you're saying we're, we're, we're having a dad crisis right now. We're in the midst of a dad crisis. He was like, he just was kind of just in this moment of like somewhat levity, he was kind of saying that it's funny that the bar seems to be rather lower to become celebrated as a dad, as just a dad who does what he's supposed

to do because people aren't getting married early enough. Yeah. Yeah. Before we began the show, we're talking about, uh, uh, a dear friend of mine who sends me articles all the time, pointing out that people are waiting till later, putting off, getting married, you know, and like it's distressing to him. He has four kids. It's just stressing.

He's like those sons of bitches. They're getting away with something. I had him young by God. You know, that's the way it ought to be. But it is to be. But it is, man. That's like, uh, it is, uh, it is cool to do that. And I think that it'll be an interesting trip for your kids to, um, it'll be an interesting trip when your kids start putting together this other world that

they think of you as like some dude, like, no, and then he's gone. He's always, you know, he's here. He just, whatever. And I remember with my own kids, um, I remember with my own kids, they were not that old, man. It used to really bother them. Maybe like at five, six, seven years of age, when they started putting together that we'd be in the airport or something and someone would come up to me, and they didn't like it.

Really? They were like defensive. They were territorial. Now they're like totally cool about it. When it does happen, and if we go somewhere as a family, we're like to have a layover to everything. They're used to it. It'll be a little bit and it doesn't, they just, they, it doesn't even register with them. Yeah. They're just like, Oh, it's part of the thing. Yeah. But at a time I remember they were, uh, like there's like a, like, as this was coming clear to them that there would be people that would like,

like the, like that their dad made something or wrote something and people liked it. Yeah. And would come up unannounced. They brought out and then like a territorial instinct. That's interesting. Yeah. To be like, don't they're kind of tendency was like, like, like, get away. Do you mean they didn't like that shit? Sure. I wouldn't even have been able to articulate it, but just how they physically responded to it. Right. I often wonder like, you know what I mean? They didn't like that shit. Sure. I wouldn't even have been able to articulate it, but just how they physically responded to it. I often wonder like, you know, I've discussed with some other artists buddies that have kids, you know,

and that some that whose kids are a bit older than mine, you know, and I'm like, when do you, when do you like, is there a definitive moment where you have to like, have the conversation with them? Like, hey, let me explain this to you and so but like let me explain to you what's going on and the reason I say that is because I've had a few artists buddies is like well you got to tell them as Soon as they're able to understand or someone else is going to go

They're gonna learn it from someone else They're going to learn it from someone else. And you want to learn it from you. You want them to learn it from you, kind of. You don't want them showing up at home one day and going, well, why do all my friends think it's cool that you're my dad? Yeah. Why are you different than everyone else's dad?

You know what I mean? It's an interesting, I mean, it's obviously a niche problem, right? Like there's not, there's not any books written on, you know, how to, how to tell your kids that you're a famous musician or whatever it may be. You know what I mean? There might, there maybe should be one, but I don't, the audience would be small. But I think that it's what winds up being, what winds up being hard on them. And this, like, for me to be talking about this issue, we're talking about like a D-list, whatever the lowest level of celebrity a person can have

is like where I'm at, right? And then you're like way, like- I wouldn't say way. You're like way up the ladder, but there's a thing that, that even no matter what, what winds up happening to the kids is there, there's a thing where it's like among peers or people around, there's this kind of like a little bit of a, like, you ain't all that meaning they'll encounter, right. Resistance from other people.

They'll encounter like a, you ain't, you know, you think you're all that or like, you ain't just because you're dad. Right. And they may not think that at all, but the other people interpret it'll be there. And the point I'm making about if you sit down and we're talking to them, they're seeing things and forming impressions. Such a fast rate. From like ambient things, ambient clues and cues. Yep.

That is way faster than would be their ability that, that, that, that happens, that influx of inputs about what's going on in the world happens earlier than it then would be the ability for them to understand what you're trying to explain to them. Meaning if you waited till they were let's say something happened to you in the past and you were able to like and you lived a reality that that was totally outside of your past and at some point you need to say hey there's something I need to tell you about a thing that happened to me a long time ago, right? Like a long time ago this crazy thing happened. At some point you might become

aware of this and I want to explain it to you. In that case you might be able to wait until you could have a rational conversation with your kids. Right. But if something's actively ongoing now, they're already on it before you'd be able to explain it to them. Meaning all their buddies like travel a certain way. And it'd be like, well, I get the feeling we can't really travel that way. Like it's kind of risky.

And so we travel this very different way. Right. You know, they're on it, man. Like, no, for sure. They're on it way ahead of their ability to, for you to sit down and talk to them about it. They've already like put together in their head that like there's something different when we go somewhere. Oh, for sure. And I think that, but why don't we go to Chuck E. Cheese's? Yeah. Well, there's also like this inherent, like innocence, though, or like the situation that they're in is like they're normal. And they almost think that. Everyone's situation is is that too, in some ways, like I've I had an artist

buddy who I'm pretty close with, and he was telling me about one of his kids being at school and they're younger, you know, like you were talking like kindergarten, like first grade or whatever, you know, and someone was, they were talking to another kid and this is like a conversation that the teacher had, I guess with him or something. And I don't remember those exact specifics of how he heard about it, but it's like someone was talking, one of the kids was talking to his kid about something and his kid was like, oh what song does your daddy have on the radio? You know? And it was like, and the teacher kind of thought that maybe the child was like trying to

slight the other child or something, but like it was really just like, she just thought that everyone's dad was like sung on the radio because like her dad does and my kids like they'll see me on or they'll see me and my wife you know like on an award show or something like you know like cuz when we go like to the CMA Awards or to the Grammys or something like you know my parents or whoever will let the kids stay up and like watch cuz they know you know dad is gonna be singing on TV you know. What awards does your dad have? We got employee of the month right yeah ace hardware last and I had another buddy who's a songwriter and and he was like he said you know I had been over and and like met his kids and stuff we ate or whatever at their

house and um I remember him telling me this, we were on a writing trip and he was like, dude, my kids, like they know that like me and you are like our friends that I know you and stuff. And I was like, yeah. It's like, and he said, so the other night we're having dinner and like, it's like his daughters. And it's like, well, dad,

can we have Justin Bieber over for dinner and He was Like she just thought I knew every famous Musician that I could just call any of them and just have them over At any time because I know you like so it's it's such an interesting So they also like they only understand the world and kind of this like tunnel vision II like Whatever their surroundings are is how they kind of perceive everything at the at that age So it's interesting to like how that factors into the way things will become and I worries was like you really got a steer

You really it's like it's my job to kind of open the that worldview up to like hey this This thing isn't normal It's like, it's my job to kind of open the, that worldview up to like, Hey, this, this thing isn't normal, you know, but it doesn't, it doesn't make you better than anyone else. Yeah. You're doing a way better job of explaining what I was trying to get at. When I said that there's, there's no aha moment. No, there's no moment when you come in and go like, Hey, you know, before you find out, I wanted to explain that I'm kind of like a music,

like a famous music. There's no big bang of like, yeah, because they're already, they're already doing a thing and they're already doing like, there's going to be no, no, there's not like a no shit moment for them because they're just assembling it all. And I think that what I was trying to get at when I mentioned exposure, your kids to just doing all the mundane stuff is later if they'd be like, later if they'd come to some realization that there is something weird, you know, that their dad like makes TV shows or that their dad, you know,

writes books and other people read the books or whatever does, does these kind of like seemingly unusual things. I just kind of want them to be to think like moment, the guy that like unplugged the toilets in the house and like no one else will do it, but he has like the, like the guy, like mom's not going to do that and she'll wait and dad's going to do that. Like that guy. Like the feeling I want them to have later is to be like, the guy crawling around under the sink,

trying to figure out what's going on with something. That dude. Yeah. You guys want a picture with that guy? Yeah. That it's just like, that's a thing. And maybe it's just only a problem I've created only in my head, but I just don't want there to be any sense of, I don't want, like, I hate to have to think that your kids would develop a sense of exceptionalism. Yes, that, that worries, that worries me and my wife a lot too.

You know, we want to make sure like, it's really like, you know, we don't want, we don't want them to be a product of their circumstances in a negative way. You know what I mean? You worry about, you see that all the time. We'll make our kids, I'm not kidding you man, we'll make them get down under the table and pick up. If they've like dropped a bunch of french fries and stuff. Or like they police the area. And like getting off a plane, they they police there Oh, dude, we do the same thing and it'd be like you this is not someone's responsibility, dude Right like they're gonna they'll come and pick up the plates and stuff You are not leaving that shit on that booth. All the things you guys are talking about too though, like even for just

Joe Schmo dad, you know, it's like everyone's responsibility. Yeah. Any anybody, no matter who you are, like, I'm trying to articulate. No, you're right. Yeah. Like why is it like everyone should be doing that? Why wouldn't you do all this? Right.

But exactly. Yeah. I don't know. It becomes, it's like a, I guess it takes on like a sup. I guess it's probably like someone in, in our particular situation would worry that it would be easier for them to fall into just being a complete dirt bag.

Yes. If left unchecked. I guess that would be easier for them to be like, oh, well this is someone will come and get my coffee when I'm done. Someone will pick that up, you know, that would be easier for them to, to end up at than it would be for like, if your dad worked at a up, you know, that would be easier for them to, to end up at that it would be for like, if your dad worked at a factory, you know, you're closer to that

finish line of being, you know, a scumbag pretty much like, you know, if he started off. There's a way you could maybe there's a way, you know what it is? Dude, you're making, Chester, you're making a great point. Like why would what we're talking about, that should apply to everybody. It should apply to every kid and every kid in America should like tighten up their spot when they leave a restaurant and not be like, well, they'll get it. No kid in America should do it. I guess what I worry about is what I would worry about is there's probably a way.

It w for people of like people in a certain level of like financial stability, a certain level of connections, a certain level of a really good Rolodex, a certain level of like parental support, like, Oh, you want to do an internship at such and such place. Let me make some calls, right? Nepotism. Yeah. Nepotism that you'd be like, there's a pathway for your kids to think, to

realize one day that they probably could get away with that shit. Yeah. Cheat code. Yeah. They're like, you know what? I cannot clean up my area. I can not show up to work at 7 a.m. I cannot mow lawns and I can skip all that junk and I'll probably be able to pull it

together because my old man knows a lot of people. He's going to, he'll, he'll, he'll figure that my parents will figure it out. They'll bail me out. They'll figure it out. The college shit, like I'll'll get I'll get letters of recommendation Right or or dad could do you know donate enough money to the you know scholarship fund or whatever it is? Yeah, so you have a fear that they're gonna be like, you know, they're gonna expect those things expect you to do things Yeah

But yeah, that is where it starts though. You know, that stuff leads into, you know, like privilege, right? Like you're, you know, you think that you're, you know, you're almost entitled to, well, I should, dad should just call and figure this out for me. You know, I expect that to happen. Is it like, kind of like a constant battle though? Like, cause like, Because obviously with guys in your position, you guys are exposed to some things that are not normal whatsoever. So is there an inkling to expose your kids in a way,

like, oh, this is really cool, but you don't want to overdo it kind of thing? Does that make sense? Do you guys think about that? Yeah, you guys have some really cool opportunities. I think there's, unavoidably think about that? Like, yeah, like you guys have some like really cool opportunities. I think there's unavoidably some of that stuff you have to do.

Like, I think about it every time, like, you know, like my kids haven't, you know, they haven't been through like the regular airport. You know what I mean? And obviously they wouldn't even remember it if they did anyways, but like, and they haven't flown a bunch, you know, but we've gone down, you know We've you know chartered a plane to go down to Florida or something, you know, you know, and it's like that that to them is Normal, so it's my job to explain to them that hey man

This is not a normal thing and it's a it's super privilege to get to do this but it's not something that you are necessarily entitled to it's not something that you should feel like this is the standard and it's you know it's beneath me to go to the airport or you know so you have to like inherently your kids will be exposed to those things sometimes not by choice right but the opportunities too, it's like I do ride the line and I was thinking about this before you said it, it's like when you were talking about well dad's got this cool Rolodex and you know he can call this guy or that guy, you get to the you get to the line too where like you try everything you can to

make sure that your kids turn out to be decent, you know, humble people. That's the goal for me and my wife with our boys, you know, is to make them respectful and, and we want them to just ultimately be good people. Right. But as the dad, your dad instinct comes into, and you're like, well, you know, I really, I want to give them every advantage that I can because that's also a fatherly instinct as well yeah so I think there's a trap built in a little bit too where you could go well

I've got to you know I've got to call that school and see if I can pull some strings to get my kid in because I really because I'm their dad yeah so that's like it's like you ride that Razor's edge too of like you don't want to you don't want it to turn into an nepotism thing But just your fatherly instinct is just to do everything you can for your kids and would everyone else not do that as well Would everyone else not go? well If I had if I thought my kid was right on the line and getting into

Stanford or wherever it is, some Ivy league school, obviously they're, you know, they're not going to get anything out of 2.0 grade point average. They're not going to get in. Or, but if they're right on the line anyways, due to their own achievements, do you, as a dad call and go, Hey, what can I do to help my child? Is there something I can do? Which most- Is there a chance I could pardon them for federal tax evasion and weapons charges?

But then I wonder- Because as a dad. Right? But then I wonder too, like, what if your kid found out later on down the line? Like, let's say you decide as a parent, I'm not going to help them at all with this. Which I can understand. I can understand you going, no, dude, it needs to be a merit-based thing. And I get that and it should be, I think.

And then they don't get it and they're crushed, dude. And that's the meteorite that like knocks the ship off course and then they go, I, my dad could have called and done something for me. And he did it. But then we're getting back to do they expect things that they shouldn't expect? So it's like, it's kind of like that, but that's just being a parent, dude. Being a parent is just, you're making the best decisions that you think you are making for your kids. And that's all you can do. You know,

it's real easy to worry about all that stuff. It is, man. It is. It's just like, yeah, just try to do the best you can. You know? Yeah. We're now into the Turkey regulations of parenting. We dive very deep. Chilly, I want to, uh, answer the question you asked about, like presenting with opportunities. And I catch myself doing a, uh, a combo deal, like a definite combo deal. You keep track?

No, no. Meaning this, like, I'm just, let me give you a scenario that hasn't happened. Let's say I met someone and they're like, uh, Hey man, uh, you know, my cousin owns an island in the Seychelles and no one's ever there. You guys should go spring break on this private Island and say shells. And in fact, his cousin has a little charter business and they'll fly you all out there. Okay.

Do you go like, damn it, I'm not taking my kids that Island and the St. Shales because I don't, I don't want them to like, you know, that's not available to anyone. Right. So I'm not going, I wouldn't do that. I would have that in my mind. I'd be like, man, you know what we should do? I'd go say to my wife, like, it's going to sound crazy, but we, we can go to this,

like Island and say shells or this dude has his place and no one's there. And he said, we can go hang out there. So we would go, but when we're there, I would be, we'd be like eating shit that we caught out of the rocks. Do you know what I mean? Or if there was like a lime tree or what, you know what I mean? We'd be like, man, we're going to go out.

We're going to get those limes. We're going to squeeze all the lime juice out of them. We're going to catch some crabs down there and we're going to, do you know what I mean? We're going to like make stuff and do hands-on stuff. And you're going to see the process of going from nothing, just like what's here, to we're going to have like a little meal.

And so it doesn't meaning there's like practical skill and element to it and, and like getting a little bit uncomfortable, but I wouldn't be able to turn down. Totally the thing. And so when I say like a combo deal, it would be that like we, we, every spring break, you know, we go down to the beach and Baja every spring break for, for when we make lunch, we're making fish that we shop because we climb in the water and go spearfishing. It's, it's very luxurious, but it's like, there is a little bit of element of scrappiness. We build a little scrappiness into it.

Build some adversity, build an adversity. Yeah, build in a little something that kind of needs to be paid attention to. And it's a little dicey, right? And you know, whatever. But I can't say that I turned down sort of opportunities that would show them whole parts of the world or parts of global experience. I don't go like I'm not gonna show that to you. I don't want you to feel like you got a leg up you know but I'll take them there and when I take them there I try to I don't know man like like I try to keep the experience grounded and respectful

and real and also try to point out that this is exceptional. And hopefully they realize though how they got on that vacation in the first place. Cause you guys got, you guys worked hard, very hard to get into the positions you're at. And I think kids might realize that, you know what I'm saying? Like, I would never ever like, I would that they got to pick up on. I would never say that. Right.

But I think they do pick up on that. Yeah. That I think to say it, to articulate it. Um, you know, I worked hard for this, right? Like to articulate it. You know, I worked hard for this. Like to articulate it, I think there's too much chance of backfire. It's like they, I kind of trust they have to just see it. I hope that they notice. I can't picture how you bring it up. But you're also trying to, like, you know, we talked about this touchstone a little bit earlier. It's like you want them to see you working

hard. You know what I mean? Like I want my kids to, you know, we talked about this, touched on it a little bit earlier. It's like you want them to see you working hard. You know what I mean? Like I want my, you know, like I want my kids to, you know, come to the studio and see it's like, Oh, well, the records don't just, it doesn't take five minutes to make the records, you know, it takes a year to make them. And there's a lot of other people that do a lot of hard work too. It's not just, it's not just me me me. Like my face is on the CD but there's an army of people that

make this possible. You know there's a lot of people with a lot of skills that are a part of everything that I do. Whether it's on the road or in the writing room or in the studio like I am just a small part of the thing. There are so many more incredibly talented people involved in what I do other than just me. I want my kids to see that too. You know what I mean?

Because you hear the whole, it takes a village thing. I think life takes a village too, right? Like your own life, not just raising your kids, but your own life too. Like appreciating the people that you have in the journey with you and how much they contribute to your success as well. And you have a great team around you, man. I think that's what I love about being out here.

It's like, you know, it's always the same guys. And that says a lot about what it is. There's not a lot of turnover. I've been out and done a lot of stuff with you guys, man. And it's like it's always the same guys and that's the way my thing is you know for the most part I mean I've said there's very very low turnover in my world and that's very rare in the music business. I remember I think one of the earliest things that struck me when I met you is uh

I remember one of the earliest things that struck me when I met you is, uh, that you, I was like, man, this guy has a lot of loyalty to his bus driver. Love, love. Like, it's like your best friend. He's the man, dude. Yeah. But I mean, he drives me. I mean, my life is in his hands while I'm asleep, dude. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, I appreciate for the dude, you know, appreciate what he does. And, you know, I think that's the cool thing about, you know, being in, you respect, yeah. I tell it. You appreciate for the dude, you know, appreciate what he does. And, you know, I think that's the cool thing about, you know, being in, you know, the position that, that I'm lucky to be in is, you know, you can impact so many people in a positive way, man. You know, like you can bring everybody along for the ride, you know, like you can improve, improve so many people's lives. If you give a shit enough to do that, you can easily do that, you know, like you can improve, improve so many people's lives. If you give a shit enough to do that, you can easily do that.

You know? And I mean, you know, a lot of my friends men, like we're, we're long, we're, we're in this thing together, man. And now a lot of my buddies are really successful, not, not just with my thing, but with other things now, because we we all we all went through the door together man like the success door open for all of us yeah when I got you

know when I got my deal and my thing took off like I wanted to help my buddies like let's all get in here and do the thing man you know what I mean like I don't want to just go through myself like imagine having all the success and nobody to share it with you know what fun would there be in that? I can't imagine going on the road and not caring about the guys in my band. But that happens. There's guys that are like, oh, yes, this guy, you know, whatever. You play the guitar. Great.

I don't hang out with him. I don't I don't know him. Don't really care to that much. Yeah. But that that's the thing that happens, which is baffling to me. I can't imagine, because I'm such a people person, I'm such a friends guy, I love being around people, interacting with them. Obviously I want it to be people that I like, genuine folks, I would say.

But that's so much fun, dude. I mean, you guys have fun on these trips, man. They're work trips and there's times to you that I'm sure it feels like work coming out here and doing these things, but ultimately you go, man, if this is the worst day, if you had the worst day you could have on a meat eater trip, it's better than the best day for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And that's, and it's mostly because of the people. Imagine if you were stuck here all day, it's raining all day on the

Turkey hunt like it is today. best day for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And that's, and it's mostly because of the people. Imagine if you were stuck here all day, it's raining all day on the turkey hunt like it is today and you couldn't do anything and you hated everyone that was out here too, at least here you could sit around and joke and laugh and, you know, eat food together and tell stories and just enjoy each other's company. But there's guys on the road who maybe they have a bad day on the road and they don't even have any friends out there at all, dude. They just have people that work for them that are around and they're just out there by their lonesome, just being miserable.

I couldn't imagine what that's like. Cause when I have tough days, I at least have people that I can turn to, you know, and talk to about it that understand and that actually care to listen to and they care about how I'm feeling or I care about how they're feeling, you know, that that atmosphere I think is so important, you know, and you guys have that. So that's why I like that's why I like being around you guys. You guys have that too. At least from the outside perspective, it seems like you do, you know, which is neat. Thanks, man. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. You ready to wrap up? Oh, go ahead. You got any new records or anything that you can talk about that you're...

I don't. No. I don't know. I don't really know man. Where are you at in the cycle? Where are you at in the cycle? Um, I'm at the site. I'm at the point now like we're I'm about to go in the studio for the first first session on cutting my next record. So we're trying to cut probably anywhere from like, you know, in a worst case scenario for best case six. And how many do you have? How many do you have the seed for?

Like, you know, like some weeks, I wonder if I should start a new trash bag, like at least that far along. Oh, like how, like how, like how many, how full is the trash bag, right? I would say right now, I mean, songs that are in serious contention to make the record, I mean, 40 to 50 that are like

really you got will let down to got a whittle it down and then you're good and then you're making a calendar and then you're getting in like heavyweight like you're getting it it's like heavyweight fights because all the songs like you really like all of them when you're sitting on a pile of 40 to 50? Oh damn it listen it's a lot more than that. I thought you'd say 15. 20. 15 would be we're done. Well no it doesn't. I thought you like you got to get rid of a few maybe you know. Well I think you know I think now people are putting out bigger and bigger records that's been a trend you know as the streaming economy has taken off. Oh that's driven it's oh for sure that drives more too. Well it's driving you know now because you're instead of

selling a physical CD right like back in the day you were limited by how many songs could be on a CD and so then you know you're if you start putting out a double CD back then, you got to start charging people double because now there's two discs in there that you've purchased and packaging and special cases and all that stuff. So you don't want you feel like that will impact sales because the consumer goes, well, I don't want to pay twice as much for this album. Yeah. So that limited people from putting too many songs on their record because they didn't want to risk not selling as many

by having too many songs because then people had to pay twice as more for it. Yeah like now you can put out... Use your illusion one and two. Right now you've got and I think country is the first genre that has really started putting out these big hit records where there's a bunch of songs on them. You know, 30. Morgan's records have been huge. His next record's 37, I think.

37 songs. Hummin? 37. And then Zach Brian, I think, did 36. And those guys are, and it's a brilliant strategy, right? Because your album sales are, you know, it's based off of it's stream equivalents. Yeah. And I guess, yeah, that's a great point that I never thought about, man, is you're

talking about like, uh, cause you strip away the physical component, you strip away the physical components, another stream equivalency, right? So I, I, I think someone's probably going to crush me for the statistic, but I believe it's a hundred thousand streams To account for one physical sale of the album No, so a song's over the Aggregate of the entire album every hundred thousand streams equates for you paying 1299 for the CD. So if you went from 12 listens, you used to rack up a sale now. It's right. So I've got a long way to go.

I think the wild thing is so here's all the record yet. Chester, here's where you get to. Here's me. Here's where you get to, you know, the question of, okay, so now when you think about it that way, if every 100,000 spins is a record sale, right? Well, if I put out a record that has 12 songs on it and it still takes 100,000 spins to get a sale, or if I put a record out with 39 or 40 songs on it, I'm gonna get a lot more, I'm gonna get a lot more listens. Yeah, I understand. Yeah, makes sense. And I'm gonna sell more albums, you know. There may be the same amount

of hits on the 40 song record as there is the 12 song record, but the 40 song record is gonna sell more just because more streams are, people are consuming all 40 songs as opposed to 12 casting a wider net casting a wider net right so it's a it's a brilliant strategy you know but it's a strategy do you have some like I'm like oblivious to this man and it's like it's kind of demonstrates my age because I remember like you said like I just like came of age during the time when you came of age during the time when you just bought like when people like operated that way You know, so I always tell people so funny man

I remember being in speech and debate in college like my third year of college. I was in a speech and debate class I'm not shitting you. This is like I Remember a kid doing is he had to do a persuasive speech You know his persuasive speech was what That you should give up on cassette tapes and switch to CDs. He was right. That bastard was right. For me to be like, how many songs around an album

you could kind of tell, like you kind of date me. Cause like, yeah, I just think of it as being, you know, like an album's like 10, 12 songs. Well, I wondered too, like, and I'm again, I'll probably get roasted on this one too, but I'm not certain, at least that there wasn't previously to my knowledge, of really a cap on it. Like there isn't a cap on it.

And to some extent that will become an issue. Because what if I put out a song with a record with a hundred songs on it? Is that still one album? Yeah. Like where does it end? Like there has to be... Yeah, because you'll hit the most streamed album and someone will be like, dude, because there's 200 songs on the song, bitch.

Exactly. Exactly right. But and it's like, you can't slide anyone that's doing it because it's, you're just, you figured out how to play the game the best. Right? It's no different with then like the wildlife regulations to some extent. It's like you're talking about the bear hunt, right? It's like everybody did the, we just did the thing and we did it really good and we did it too good and oops.

But like right now we're just kind of in such a like, it's such like international waters with like the streaming thing, because all the litigation and yet because it's all still so new to everyone, you know, and so now people are doing, you know, are doing, they're playing the version of the game that's best suited for where we stand right now, because nobody's like, Hey, you shouldn't do that. No one said you can only have 24 songs on an album, so why not put 40? Or why not put 45? Or why not put 50? Or why not put 75? I don't know. That's the thing is like, will there ever be an end to it or won't there be?

I don't know if we'll ever know the answer to that. But I would think at some point there kind of would have to be. There's a point where you're gonna burn out the consumer to like if you put out a hundred song record people are like how do I even listen to this who makes that decision though I mean the artist usually like no like it if there's a cap put on it I mean sometimes it's the government I mean sometimes it's the streaming services sometimes it's the labels I mean there's all sorts of, you

know, there's lobbyists like there is for anything else, right? You know, people getting together and going, well, I think there should only be, you know, surely be 12 songs on a record. That should be it. You know, and I don't know, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not smart enough to know that stuff. I don't, I don't claim to, but you know what winds up being a governing function. Now we're losing another extreme of the listeners. Now we're going down the guys, the guys that were way into Turkey, right? Like, what are we

talking about? You know, the, the, the publishing and record business is not interesting to me. But remember I was, you were talking about the, you were talking about the sit, like what Grammys mean, right? How that system works. And I was telling you another system that's just not the way people think it is, is the New York Times bestseller list. And I've like benefited from it, I've been screwed by it. But it is not a count up of what sold,

it is not a representation of what sold best. Right, correct. There's all these value judgments based in... Weighted, like weighted scoring and stuff. Weighted scoring, directional value judgments, vengeance on the part of like traditional media, vengeance against new media. Right. Right? traditional media, vengeance against new media, right? Right? Like levels of hate, levels of animosity between, uh,

you know, one world and then, and then like online booksellers, right? It's like pseudo politics. It is like really like it's its own political things. Very intricate. You know, but unless you're in that business, from the outside looking in, you just have no clue. Yeah, and when you talk about a governing, like who would govern it or Seth asking like, well, who would ever say what's okay or not okay?

The list still matters, like the New York Times bestseller list still matters. And you can have it be like, well, why not just do whatever you want when it comes to publishing? You need to approach certain projects. If you want to make that list and benefit from being on that list, you need to approach projects in a certain way. So is a book, is an audio book, what they regard to be an audio book or is it something different?

Right. So you go like, well, why would you ever need to conform to a certain protocol? As you can get too far outside of the lines and then, and then these, these independent parties that legally, obviously they can do whatever they want. It's that they, they invented the list. and parties that legally obviously they can do whatever they want is that they they invented the list you can do things that put you not able to be captured by the list and it's good to be on the list because if you get on the list people all the bookstores order the book yeah right it gets traction sure and so you

could go too far out there in some direction, like format wise or how you sell it, how you distribute it. And you get it where you're no longer relevant to that thing. And that thing matters. So it winds up being like a little bit of a gravitational pull to be like, to conform to some set, you know, industry standard. And you're saying like, if you made an album that has 200 songs on it, somebody like that might say,

that's not an album, I don't know what that is, but that's not an album. Right. And you're not, that's not eligible to win album of the year because it's not, it's not. I guess what I'm saying is that set of rules doesn't exist currently. Yeah.

Is what I'm saying. There is no, right now, So you've got people like kind of forming the rules and you know, I mean, ultimately it's up to the fans, dude. I mean, ultimately whatever resonates with them is what people are gonna listen to. You know what I mean? So it's really interesting. It's like, it's interesting how all that stuff works,

you know, and the record business is wild, you know, music business is wild. It's really interesting. It's interesting how all that stuff works. And the record business is wild. Music business is wild. There's so many intricacies. Sure, the publishing world is just, there's so many things that you would never think of. From outside perspectives, you write a good book and then put it out.

And then it's a good book and people like it. But it's not that simple. And record business is like that as well. You know what I mean? Like that I think the record business- I have found that you can get around that, but there's just a lot of other stuff laid on top of it. Right. Yes, exactly. Record businesses the same way. You know, great records will, you know, ultimately people will discover and listen to them. You know what I mean? A great record's a great record. And you know, it's all subjective too, right? Like, what do people like? Right? A great

record, great country record, some people are going to hate it because they just don't like country music, you know? A great record is a great record and you can just tell, you know? And I'm sure books are no different. What would be an interesting number, set of numbers, two numbers would be like, what percent of great records aren't recognized? And what percent of shitty records are over recognized? Sure, there's some of them. I'm sure there's some of that for sure. Yeah. But then it's like, if those quote unquote shitty records are huge, are they just shitty records to you?

Yeah. Exactly. Someone else, they're great records. It's highly subjective. Same with books, right? Like, I'm sure there's all these incredibly underappreciated books out there that if you're a literary guy,

that you're like, well, you have to, how do you not know that book? I'm sure there's those, right? You know, um, there was some, we got it. We got to wrap this up and get serious about getting outside. But do you remember, do you remember the musician he's from a while ago? But do you remember the musician Elvis Costello? Yep. Okay.

I remember, I think I was, I swear I was like David Lee Roth or someone to said this, but he was like, like Elvis Costello was always like a critical favorite. Critics always loved his albums and David Lee Roth was observing that, but rock critics all look like Elvis Costello. So like the level of bias they got, they all got the same style, you know? Like Elvis Costello, like had those big like glasses and stuff. He's like, yeah, but they like them because they look at him like that's some bitch looks like me.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's like it's an album like made for those kind of guys. Right. Exactly. Exactly. They made for the dudes that write articles about albums. Yeah. There's a lot of dudes that just listen to them. Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. All right.

Well, Luke, thanks for coming on the show as usual, man. Absolutely. Thanks for having us. I appreciate all that, but I especially appreciate what you shared about raising kids. Yeah. I'll tell you this thing, this dude, I know in New York he's a, he had spent his career working in family law, like the kind of family law of families breaking up. Sure.

That's tough business. And, um, he probably doesn't even remember telling me this. It was so long ago. And when he told me this, I didn't even have kids, but it stuck in my head. He was just talking about all the awful things that he's encountered in his career, you know, of like dissolving family, custody battles and stuff. And we were somehow talking about things that screw kids up. And he said, so speaking from a level of expertise, he said, I'll tell you the one thing that screws them up is the day they figure out that

no one gives a shit about them. And he's like, that is the thing. Oh man. More than any other thing. Yeah. You know, and what better to bring that out than a splitting up parents who are not trying to suck them in, but splitting up parents who are trying to get clear. Get the other parents to take them. Yeah. Like parent, imagine that when you put together, like talking about how perceptive kids are

when you put together, like, hold on a minute, wait a minute. They're both trying to give you the other one. They're trying to pull away and not come in. Right. You know, you picture you'd want to be in there and your parents throwing punches trying to get you. Yeah. It's probably not great either. Yeah to get you. Yeah, it's probably not great Throwing legal legal. Yeah, thanks for coming on me. Yeah, absolutely I'm telling you man, there's nothing quite like it.

Gives me chubby just thinking about it. You hit the call way off in the distance, a time fires back. You work him in, watching his body language shift from cautious to committed. Then that moment, the one every turkey hunter dreams about all winter, is that gobbler locks eyes in your decoy and comes running in. And if you're using the right decoy, you don't need to then settle for a 40 yard nervous shot. Because with the right decoy, you can get that bird in your lap,

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