The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 691: BONUS DROP - Bear Grease: Confessions of a Former Outlaw

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

In this episode of The Bear Grease Podcast, host Clay Newcomb is joined by Oklahoma man Johnny Johnston as he shares the honest, transparent, and nitty-gritty details of his life story and his relationship to wildlife law, but more importantly about the transformation that he underwent that brought him out of this dark time in his life. Subscribe to Bear Grease on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Connect with Clay and MeatEater Clay on Instagram MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and YouTube Clips MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What you're about to hear is an episode of the Bear Grease podcast called Confessions of a Former Outlaw. I'm including it here on the MeatEater podcast feed for a couple different reasons. Reason number one is because it is so damn good and interesting and also because the man you're going to be hearing from is like no one else on this planet. The second reason I'm including it here is because this episode was giving Clay a lot of consternation. It was giving him fits. He was scared to do in this show. He was scared to do in the show because he was afraid of people thinking that

he was glorifying a poacher or an outlaw when in fact you're gonna hear a story about redemption. And two, Clay was nervous about putting a spotlight on this individual you're gonna be hearing from. He sent me the episode, I listened to it, and I told him, man, there is no way you can can this episode dude You have to run with this show and I believed in it so much. I wanted them to put it right here So that as many people as possible could hear it. So check it out

If you like what you're hearing make sure to subscribe to the bear grease podcast feed and enjoy. I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. Seems like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, why did you do this? I said, well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get ripe, you pick them. When your potatoes get ripe, you dig them. When your turkeys are ripe, you go get you one.

Yeah, but he said, that's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can't. But he explained that to me. I traveled a couple of hours south and slightly west from my home on Wednesday March 26 2025 to meet with a man who I was told might be the most interesting man in Lefleur County Oklahoma. I hardly knew anything about him and oddly though I talked to people for a living, while I was in my truck and when I got within about two miles of his cabin, I started to get nervous.

He was described to me as a kind man, loved by those who know him, but with a checkered past and an uncanny expertise in wild turkeys. Why he'd agreed to talk with me I wasn't sure and I began to doubt why I had agreed to come. This is real rural America not the curated version that I sometimes like to talk about. This one has addiction, illegal hunting, and broken relationships but I had no idea I'd be impacted so much. This is an unusual Bear Gryse, dark at times, funny at others, but I was surprised at the arc of redemption. You'll have to forgive me because I'm still sorting out the

details, but I'd like to share with you the confessions of this former outlaw. I really doubt that you're gonna want to miss this one. but I'd like to share with you the confessions of this former outlaw. I really doubt that you're gonna wanna miss this one. ["Bare Grease"] My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is the Bare Grease podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight in unlikely places and where we'll tell the story of Americans who

live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF Gear, American-made purpose-built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. I had a friend and people that hunt know him, Ben Rogers Lee. Ben Lee, world champion caller, hunter, good friend. Ben got killed in a vehicle accident. He was at my turkey camp. we hunted the first part of season, and he tried to get me to quit and go with him to Alabama. He said, you like this game, you're good at it, I see it in you, I see potential in you. You need to

quit what you're doing and go with me and I'll make you famous and me rich No, I can't quit what I got I got a good job good family got cattle I can't do that This is the voice of Johnny Johnston You've probably never heard of him, but I doubt that you'll forget him on the walk from the truck to the door of his cabin, I estimated there to be no less than 12 well taken care of hunting dogs scattered within sight. Beagles, running walkers, and bird dogs. To Johnny being called a hillbilly is a term of endearment and he identifies as one and by his definition the highest ranking qualification has nothing to do with hounds or overalls, but it's not being superficial.

This story is about Johnny's life, and we'll learn some foundational stuff that started on this hunt with Ben Lee. So, he left. I stayed, continued to hunt. The hunt was over. End of season, I was going to go out west and turkey hunt. And I had a gun and some stuff at Octavia, friend of mine's house. And I was supposed to have been there to get my stuff.

And I never showed up, so he came looking for me. And found me, I'd flipped my Jeep over. Broke my neck, broke my back, cut my left ear off, crushed a foot, bunch of ribs, critical condition. Well they loaded me in the back of a Bronco and took me to the hospital and my wife was there pretty upset. I don't remember any of it. There was some drinking involved. There is something to that drinking and driving

because since I've quit drinking 15 years, 319 days ago, I hadn't had a roof. When people know to the day how long they've been sober, the days prior to that were probably tough. Johnny is from the small town of Heavner, Oklahoma. He was born in 1949. He's 75 years old. He's been married to the same woman for 55 years. He's of average height. He has a wiry build with dark eyes that squint tight when he smiles. We're inside of a small white cabin with interior walls of rough sawn oak.

Turkey beards hang in wads from deer antlers like clusters of grapes. Every single beard has a tag attached to it. There's no cell service here, but he doesn't own a cell phone or a computer. He never has. Let's get back to the hospital. This wreck sounds really bad.

But I was telling her they would fix me the best they could right then. And they could later come back and fix my ear. And I said, Oh, I forgot to tell you my ears in the right front pocket of my camouflage. You told him that? I told the doctor that, yeah, on the gurney going into surgery. And he said, go look in his clothes and see if you can find an ear. And a nurse came running down the hall and said, I've got an ear.

And so they took my ear and he said, we'll do the best we can. And I rared up again and said, hey, so I don't back was where I heard them turkeys walking behind me. That story tips us off to two things. How central wild turkeys have been in his life and that he is a character. This whole story is about Johnny's life, some of it very personal,

but I'm interested in his relationship with the law as it relates to wild turkeys. People's relationship to the law is helpful in understanding our society. Not the one we think we have, but the one we actually do have. Johnny is a rare find, willing to be vulnerable when a stranger showed up, me, and asked

about some of the darkest times of his life. I think we should start off with that credit to his ledger. In the last three years, no less than half a dozen people have emphatically told me that I needed to come here to Johnny's, including a game warden. But nobody could really articulate why. There's a lot I don't know about Johnny, so I'm going to begin with a question about his friendship to a particularly famous turkey hunter. You may have heard of

him. Tell me about your relationship with Ben Lee? He was a super nice guy, big man. Walking this hootin', this yappin', this human I ever saw. He went from daylight to dark, charged him turkeys. He knew turkeys, he knew how to hunt. He had a call company, made calls. He was just a good fellow, I liked him. He just had a way with people.

Now how did you meet him? Through a friend of mine hunting down there and I told him where they could find some turkeys and they went there and hunted and he said, I want to meet this guy that told us about this spot where the turkeys are and I'd say I met him. He invited me up there to talk and we just went hunting and killed a turkey and hit it all. He'd come down and camp with me every spring after that. This story isn't about Ben Rogers Lee, but his connection to Johnny is beyond interesting. Ben was from Jackson, Alabama and has been referred to as the father of modern turkey hunting. He started his call company Ben Lee Calls in 1970 and made a flurry of instructional tapes, videos,

seminars, and won five turkey call in world championships. He was a southern style storyteller and was one of the great communicators of American turkey hunting. Here's a clip of Ben Lee. She starts sitting out there in the woods. She's laid a few eggs, you know. He gets up there in the morning at four o'clock, you know, and the old owl way off, he'll owl. Oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. Wakes him up and he'll, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow.

Boy, he just has his lot. I mean, he's just ready for everything to happen. The sun comes up. Instructional tapes were a big thing. Turkey hunting was just getting going. Mouth calls were just coming out. My old turkey hunting friends, one that I hunted with, used a gold horn and a piece of slate.

Now how excited could you get on a gold horn? They clucked a couple of times and three soft yelps and put it down. And that was completely reversed the way Ben Lee, honey, he never shut up. He walked calling. Turkey gobbled, he didn't dive in the brush pile, he'd start to add turkey, calling and walking to it. And he would get right on them and put some turkey stuff to them. He told me one time, he said, you like this game, but you gotta keep in mind if you hunt these turkeys like they need to be hunted, you won't have no friends, your family will be mad at you, you'll probably lose your job.

He went on and on about all the bad things that can happen to you. I said, well it can't be that bad. He said, I'm talking about if you really hunt turkey. Now there's people that turkey hunt and there's people that really hunt them. I get the feeling Johnny is one of those turkey hunters that really hunts them and that these hanging tagged beards aren't the only turkeys this man has killed. His friendship with Ben Lee is going to lead us right into something critical. Did you know him personally very well?

Like was he married? Did he have a family? He had been married 13 times. Are you serious? No, I'm serious. That's what he told me. I didn't know all of his wives. I knew several of them. But he said if you really hunt them turkeys right, that's when he said about the family and your job and all that.

He was speaking from experience. From experience. Yeah. Was he kind of an outlaw? Sort of. Would you say he was? I hate to category people, but yeah. He's kind of like myself. Interesting. He was kind of like myself, he said. An outlaw. I'd heard this about Johnny and Ben, but I didn't know for sure about Johnny.

I kind of put him on the spot, and he was hesitant to categorize his old friend in this way, but Johnny kind of tells stuff the way it is. But again, this story isn't about Ben Lee, who passed away in a car accident in 1991 at the age of 46. This story is about Johnny Johnston, and as you may know, I have a lot of respect for people willing to be honest about their past. I've often found people like Johnny to be more honest than people with less visible issues lurking in their past.

And I know that people like Johnny are usually cut from a different cloth. In this next question, I cut right to the chase and you'll hear the nervousness in my voice Was with you Did you uh Did you ever have any did the law ever mean anything to you? No Why wouldn't it because of most people it does The law itself, you mean the turkey law? Yeah, yeah. No.

When turkeys gobbled, I hunted them. You just weren't afraid of getting in trouble? No. Never crossed my mind. I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. Seems like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, why don't you do that?

I said, well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get ripe, you pick them. When your potatoes get ripe, you dig them. When your turkeys are ripe, you go get you one. Yeah, but he said, that's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you kill them and when you can. He explained that to me. Americans are intrigued by people willing to break the law period. If you need convincing just look at the top movies, podcasts, and books we read.

Heck, look at the top Bear Grylls podcasts. But I'm still trying to understand why. I think examinations of extremes help calibrate society in some tribal, primitive way, almost like we get the signal for normal by bouncing off the outliers. But there's no debate about it. What's ironic is that we are a society of rule followers. If our civilization gets smashed by a comet and archaeologists dig it up and start making conclusions about us, they'll find that this country was built on law and order. The vast majority of people who come to a stop sign in the middle of the night,

even though they know that no one is watching, they're gonna stop. I mean at least a rolling stop. And in many places of the world, they wouldn't at all, even when they know people are watching. Americans are rule followers, despite the independent, liberty, ahaholic brash exterior. But the outliers are worth examination and Johnny was an outlier when it came to wildlife law. We need to know more about his past. Hey Spencer Newhart here to tell you about an exciting new project. I am thrilled to introduce Meat Eater Wordle. It's a word game where you- Wait, wait, wait. You can't call it that. Why?

Well, because of copyright stuff. That name is probably property of the New York Times or something. Oh, well, what should we call it? I don't know. What is it exactly? Well, it's a lot like Wordle. Players get six tries to solve a five-letter word from categories like hunting, fishing, animals, nature. Then you get to compare your score to the scores from the MeatEater crew and new games will drop every Monday morning on our website. I think the perfect name would kinda sound like wordle. You know, have two syllables

and end with le. Oh and it has to be an outdoorsy word. Hmm. Introducing MeatEater Turtle. It's like wordle, but better. you can play it right now at the meat eater comm slash games Now let me this is kind of a personal question, but Would your parents have raised you to just obey the law? Oh, yeah Just like in general like yeah, you would have known no body can't steal or you can't... No, my folks were by the book all the way. Well, how did you get from that to being willing to break the law? I don't know. Just getting in the world and not really caring.

Just doing pretty much what I wanted to do. Yeah. Now, did you ever really get in trouble? Did you ever get caught like killing a legal turkey? Yeah. I just didn't ever give it a whole lot of thought. When turkeys are gobbling, I just went hunting. Stories like this can make people feel uncomfortable, especially people that love wildlife and conservation and talk about it a lot. But this is part of the rural America that I grew up around. Turkey laws were often seen as mere suggestions. This next story is about the man who taught Johnny to turkey hunt and the first time they got caught.

I can't talk about turkeys with talking about my old friend, the man that taught me how to turkey hunt. Superman. Yeah, we've been caught. He lived at Tallahany, Oklahoma, and I can call his name. He's dead and gone now, and he's respected by every turkey hunter in that part of the world, Wayne Cox. Turkey killing this man I've ever met, I've ever known. And I knew that he hunted a lot. Back when I started, I didn't even know him. I went, he was horseman, had a good racehorse, stood a racehorse stallion, and I was kind of a horseman back in the day. And that's how I knew him. I looked him up and got acquainted with him. And I said, here's what I I want I want you to teach me how to turkey hunt. No hold barred. I want to know it all. Well he said next

spring you'll just have to come over here. We'll go. I said when? When? He said oh first of March is a good time. If you're a turkey hunter you'll know that 98% of American turkey seasons don't open in the first of March. This was an invite to get an illegal early start. Okay, so first of March, I went to date with him and we hunted and he was little I know about a turkey. That old gentleman taught me.

He was slick as a snot on a doorknob. He used a wing bone or a piece of cane or a briar leaf or a peach leaf later on in the year or a slate. Called very little, very light. You could be sitting next to him and barely hear him call. But he didn't call to a turkey unless he was 70 yards close. He used the terrain, the land, cover of darkness to get to him. He said, there's no such thing as working a turkey. People talk about working a turkey for two hours.

He said, that should never happen. If they're right on that turkey. People talked about working a turkey for two hours. He said that should never happen. If they're right on that turkey, they'll have him killed in ten minutes. One cluck, two clucks, that's enough. Put your call up. And he showed me some moves. Pretty slick. He was a good guy, but he didn't pay a lot of attention to season. When the turkey gobbled, he went. We were one day in there behind his place and two turkeys. He gave me the easy one and he took the hard one, father. We mapped back, we had two turkeys he said we was walking back to the Jeep and one gobbled off in a big old rough canyon that jurors give me

that turkey I'm going gee oh I went off down there nothing couldn't do nothing with him wallowed him around a couple hours, come back, went to the jeep. Well, he said, we've been caught. What do you mean we've been caught? Well, he said, I've been caught. Game Warden was here when I got here, got a ticket. Hmm, you got two tickets. So, that's the first time we'd ever been in any problem

and we hunted all the time for a season. What, did he tell the Game Warden that you were down there? No, no, he would never told that. He said I heard I hurried up and took the ticket because I know you was gonna shoot any minute. This is where the story starts to get complicated. It was back in the mid 70s and would be the start of about 30 years of illegal turkey hunting for Johnny. My dad used to get on to me a lot for hunting too much. Really? So your dad knew that you were illegally hunting? Oh yeah, he wouldn't do it. What would he say to you? I'd call him and ask for a ride somewhere, let me out and pick me up at a certain time. He knew what I was

doing. What would he say? Do you remember anything specific like he was like Johnny this is bad you're gonna get in trouble. You know better than that. But he still helped you? Yeah he would. He didn't like it but he would. Yeah. Did you ever hide guns in the woods? Oh man. Yeah. I had a couple of logs up here. I'd put them in and I had a new shotgun I'd really proud of. I put in there and the wood rats eat the stalk. They chewed it all up. It's just like in a couple days. Yeah. I'd leave it, yeah, they'd just eat on it and eat on it. So I'd get me a big PVC pipe, put it in, cap. And another time or two, I got a chuckle.

Control burns, they'll cause you some fugly. I had a gun back over here and I stay in here in a camper. And I came in that day and took a nap. And I got up, you couldn't see for the smoke. I thought, crap, I've got a Browning shotgun and a got up you couldn't see for the smoke. I thought crap I got a Browning shotgun and a log up there right in that far. So I get on my four-wheeler and I take off up there well I come around and there's just people everywhere. Bulldozers and fire lighters and I was trying to get around and they were trying to stop me. Did it burn your gut up?

No. I got through them and got to it. Boy, it was pretty smoky. It was getting pretty close. And then another time, a funny little deal, I got a chuckle out of a hit of a turkey and a gun up here on the dead end road. Went back up there to get it later. Everything good, everything okay, and there was a bulldozer and a low boy

sitting there, not ten foot from that turkey in that gun. Well I bet he ran over that gun when he unloaded that dozer. But he didn't, he missed it about that boy. Yeah, and they were doing something and we snuck around, got the gun and turkey and got out of there. This is some pretty serious outlawing. Illegal turkey hunters often hid guns in the woods where they knew turkeys were close so they could drive to and from the spot

without a gun in the truck, making it almost impossible for game wardens to pin them down. It might seem unusual for us to be talking about this so openly, but the reason he's so comfortable is that today, Johnny doesn't have anything to hide. Because when he hit the bottom 15 years, 319 days ago, everything was laid bare.

That story is coming. I'd rather someone tell it to me like it happened than try to sugarcoat it. I think we need to fill in the gaps in Johnny's history though. I'm interested in his upbringing. I was born in Havener, Oklahoma. Just ordinary people.

My dad worked for the railroad. All my family works the railroad. I grew up just a normal boy playing sports and my dad quail hunted some. I just went crazy about it. I love it. That's what I do. That's my life. And I played sports and rodeo and I was raised on a horse. Rode a horse to a ball practice and rode a horse everywhere I went, swimming and everything. And the hunting part of it, I just kind of figured it out on my own. I just, my dad deer hunted a little bit and he had taken me and he gave me a 30-30 and I just started deer hunting. And just talking to people and learning how to hunt and doing it and learning from my

mistakes. That's a big thing we can learn in our lives by our mistakes. I just like life. I was raised in church and I don't know where I went wrong, but I like the world better. I did think the hard way and I made a lot of bad choices. But I'm not that way anymore. I'm not that way anymore, he said. That's actually what all the people that told me about Johnny said.

It's really why I'm here. I want to learn more about Johnny's life. One day my mom made me go to college when I got out of school. I said, no, I don't want to go, but she said, yeah, you're going. I had a hard time getting along. I'd be late for class. Drinking was a big part of my life. And they suggested that I take a semester off and kind of find myself.

Well, in the process, I was going to college at Talibot, I fell in with a band of hippies and I stayed on the Illinois River Bridge in a Frito van for a semester and I got quite an education. And when I left there, I went to work on the railroad for the summer and then I was going to go back to school and straighten up and that never happened. I stayed with the railroad and retired there. Johnny started working for the railroad in 1970 and was a train engineer for decades. But the spring of 1975 was the first time that he ever turkey hunted.

This is when it all started. Around 75, I started having a turkey hunt. And I didn't know anyone that ever turkey hunted. I didn't even know what a turkey call was. I knew two older men and my dad told me that they had killed turkeys. They had hunted them so I went and talked to them and they showed me a few moves on a turkey call and that April we had a Caesar and I got a call off Mr. Phipps and I went up on the hill. We had a cabin and I'd seen some turkeys there deer hunting. And I went up on the hill and laid my gun up against a tree and whacked a box and a turkey gobble shot me. And I looked and it was running right at me and I dropped my call and shot the turkey

and he ran off. That was the first encounter I'd had with a wild turkey and I was hooked right to him. Hmm. Did you get the turkey or did he get away from you? No, he got away, but I was walking around the way he went, looking for him, and I heard another one gobble. And I called to him and he came.

And I shot him and got him. So I'm a turkey killer now. And I've hunted them ever since. Just like they done something to my mama. I've had the opportunity I hunt with doctors, lawyers, Indian chiefs. One of my favorite people was the chief of the Cherokee nation. He's a good guy. My mom was part Indian. I'm a quarter, but I like Indians. They've got a good spirit, a good feel for the woods. Water and the wind, they like all that stuff. That may be part of why I'm drawn to it. I don't know. I like them. I respect turkeys. I've got more respect for a turkey gobbler than a lot of people. I'll promise you." A statement like this coming from a confessed lawbreaker could certainly ruffle your feathers,

but I think what he's really saying is that turkey hunting meant so much to him that he was willing to risk it all to hunt them, but the functionalization of that passion was awry. There are some things in life that seem to be built for temptation, uniquely appealing but forbidden, and a goblin turkey before season has been the downfall of many a man. I've never known a woman to be a turkey outlaw. And if you've listened to me enough, you know that I pray that this story in no way glorifies breaking the law. And I don't think Johnny wants it to either, but like in most things that deal with human nature, they are nuanced,

interesting if examined in detail, and insightful if you're willing to listen to people talk who have a different life experience than you. There are so many tidbits of interest in Johnny's story. It's like being confused on a covey rise by how many targets are in front of you. The thing that stands out most to me is Johnny's honesty about a dishonest past. He's not blaming anyone for his decisions and he's not seeking attention or any kind of glory at all. I pried his arm to get him to talk to me and I'm the one that came to him. And if something goes awry in the fact that

this story was released, it's Clay Newcomb that's to blame, not Johnny. Johnny remembered a story from the 1980s that he thinks I need to hear. I probably need to tell you that story, don't I? I had a cabin on Poto Mountain and it leaked. It's a metal roof and I got up there with a hammer and every time I was beating that ridge cap down trying to get a nail in it to pull that ridge cap down every time I'd hit that metal of turkey's goblin. This was a couple of weeks before season. I was gonna hunt there that season. But every time I'd hit that she-dier, BALALA! Man, well it rained that night. Big rain. Bad rain. Man, there won't be nobody over here.

So I just drove around there. I knew close to where he was from my cabin. But I could get up there, that get wet, and walk down that road and I'd be right on him. And I yapped to him and he gobbled right back. And when he come, there was three of them. Oh boy. I don't need three. I believe I'm gonna get one and it's good deal I done a lot of calling just

seeing what I could get by with them close enough kill I cut, squawk, and cackle and yell. Boy they was putting the show on. So I shot one got it went back to my truck just started to set it over in the back of the truck, and my game-boarding friend Randy Fennel stood up behind my truck. He was in the brush pile right there behind my truck. Got you. I said, boy, you sure do.

Ha ha ha. I couldn't lie, I couldn't run. So I said, you ain't had a bad day yourself. Did you hear all that, Randy? He said, oh yeah, I heard it all. That's good as it gets, it's just too early. I'm gonna have to take it to the boys. Well, I don't blame you.

You ain't had a bad day. Here's your gun, here's your truck, here's your turkey, what else you need? Well, he said, I hate to see you taking that saw or going out there. I'm job security for you. Did you hear all that gobbling this morning? I ain't going nowhere. You hear all that gobbling this morning? I ain't going nowhere.

You told him that? Yes, I said, you can make a name for yourself right there. I ain't going nowhere. Well, I'm gonna take your gun. I said, well, you can catch me a couple more times. Boy, I get nervous. And I said, get in, it started raining again. He had soaked and wet.

He had sat in the rain, probably biggest part of the morning in the dark, because he didn't come in there. I'd have seen his truck. I said, get in, I'll take you to your truck. He said, after all this, you'll give me a ride. I said, well, I'm a good guy. If you knew me, you'd like me. I ain't a bad guy. You can make a name for yourself right here. I hope they promote you and move you to Oklahoma City, get you out of these woods. I called him right to his truck. We still talk. Now, okay, when you describe how calm you were today, 40 years later, as you tell that story, you're like super calm. And I think a lot of times we kind of rewrite stuff in our head. Were you that calm for real when that guy, you didn't care?

No, he'd tell you the same thing if we were here today. He'd tell you the same thing. Okay, so there's these rock climbers, these free climbers that climb these big granite faces out west. And they talk about how those guys are superhuman when it comes to dealing with anxiety. And they're just able to climb on these rocks where me or you, a normal guy, would be scared to death. Their brain doesn't equate the consequence of falling like a normal person.

I still don't understand why you wouldn't be afraid because it's not like you're rich and could just pay tickets No big deal. They're gonna take your truck. They're gonna take your gun Just for what you had going on in your life and at that time too I guess you were were you an alcoholic at that time? So I mean there was a lot of I guess of rough stuff going on very much Yeah, so it's just it's just like turkey hunting was not something you were worried about when I loaded him in the truck, I had a thought that

Nervous to me just a little bit Right between me and him laying on the seat with a bag of dope and a deer horn pipe And I very casually scooted a glove over Hmm and that very casually scooted a glove over it. Now that unnerved me a little bit, but as far as killing a turkey a few days early, nah, it didn't bother me at all. Getting caught didn't bother me. I don't know, maybe I just look at it different.

We're starting to see that his problems with the law were bigger than just turkeys. He could have left out that little detail, but he didn't, and I appreciate that. What's ironic is that today marijuana is legal in most places, but at the time, Johnny might have gone to jail for it. But I'd like to examine his statement

about looking at wildlife laws different. That could sound like the typical excuse, but Johnny brings up an interesting point that if not addressed could assault the intellectual integrity of our discussion, which I am greatly enjoying. My point is nuanced and it has to do with how different generations view life, laws, and ethics. By my observation, some people, emphasis on some, raised in rural America that were adults by the 1960s viewed game laws as mere suggestions. And it was

even validated by the legal system of the time as they simply ticketed people with relatively minimal consequences, making the crime feel not that much different than a speeding ticket. I'm not suggesting that it was ever right to break the law. The Bible says that men should obey the laws of men, and by doing so they're ultimately obeying God and that book was written long before 1960 but people raised later in the progression of American conservation Were more likely to respect and obey wildlife laws by the 1990s Average hunters were becoming indoctrinated with functional ideas about conservation and it became much more

ideas about conservation and it became much more mainstream to obey the law to the point that outlawing has fallen more and more out of style. At least this is what I have witnessed with my own eyes, but you'll have to listen to this and tell me what you think. Now what about today though Johnny because because what I've what I've heard from people and and I feel like what I've heard from you Is that you don't break the law anymore on purpose? No, why not? I'm just a better person than I used to be. I used to just didn't care. I care now I don't go before season now. What about now, probably with more knowledge of conservation, if everybody killed 20 turkeys a year, that would for sure be bad.

It'd be wrong. What about from that angle, from just a conservation angle? Now, the way our turkeys are numbered down, they don't need to be overhunted like that. So part of your deal was back in the day we had so many. Plenty. There were so few turkey hunters that you just couldn't figure out why it was wrong. Right. I just, I didn't see that much wrong in it.

When I first started hunting over here mid 70s, I'd come over here for two weeks and never see a turkey hunter. Hunt this whole country, all of it. Never even see a hunter. Nobody hunting over here. And it was probably full of turkeys. Anywhere you stop, it'll make no difference. Anywhere you stop, you're a turkey dog.

And so you're sitting here saying, the game of fish tells me I can kill two turkeys. I mean, you're going to kill more than that. Probably. It was a different time. It was a different time, he said. And I want to point out that he's literally describing a former time. Penalties were different. Turkey populations were higher.

Turkey hunter numbers were way lower. And it was more common for his generation and their mentors to take wildlife laws less seriously. All this stuff makes me grateful for the generations of American game wardens that have been the interface of the law in our society as it gradually has shifted from the market hunting mentalities of the 1800s to the hyper informed conservation mind frames of the average modern hunter. We've still got problems today but things are getting better. I'm still though trying to figure out Johnny's motivation. I've got a question for him and I'm gonna bring up

two familiar names from Bear Gryce's past that we did on a series called Genuine Outlaws, which started on episode 52. We did this series on the Louis Delle and Charlie Edwards. It was real clear that they enjoyed getting away from Game Wardens and that was a part of the fun that they had and it felt like and kind of what the people around them and I never interviewed Louis Dillon Charlie because they were they had passed away by the time I did this. It was clear that they that was part of the reason that they wanted to kill stuff illegally was just kind of the thrill of getting away with it. Was that do you think that was a part of what you did?

No, really, I just liked it. I just like hunting turkeys and the time to hunt them is when they're gobbling. It was just that simple? Yeah, that simple. But no, not just trying to get away with it. It just, I don't know, I just did it. I didn't bait them or hunt them in the summer and shoot them over water, set around the water hole and try to kill them. I didn't do that. You hunt a turkey with a turkey call and a shotgun, you're not gonna hurt the population. You shoot goblins. That's the way I looked at it.

I'm not saying that's right. And if everybody did that, it would be bad. But as far as being scared, no. Back in those days though, a ticket might have been just like $150, just go pay your ticket. Is that right? Yeah. I got caught one time, I got caught I think about $270. And after Turkey season, I made a deal with the DA that I could pick up trash with the inmates from our prison here at Hodges to pay for the rest of it. And that's what I did.

So you picked up trash? I paid him a little cash and picked up trash with them inmates. Boy, they made me a lot of deals, but I couldn't take any of them either. I said, I'll be in here full time with y'all right now. I've just got a couple of months here picking up tracks, but that's worth killing a turkey. You can't put a price on killing a turkey. Really that's the way you would see it. Well I looked at it, but as much as I've done it, I've been chased around. Do you think they were after you? Oh yeah, yeah I know. Do you think they ever worked you

undercover? I think. What are you pointing at there? Those bricks. I had a couple of gentlemen show up here wanted to do that. Do this brick work. Yeah. I said, well, yeah, it'd be a good idea.

I need one, but I don't have it. I said, well, we're gonna build you one. I didn't think nothing about it. And they started calling my house. I didn't have a phone there. And they started calling my house. I didn't have a phone there. They started calling my house looking for me, and they showed back up and would find me in town. And I found that strange.

They got nearly through and said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, no, not really. But I think you probably worked for the wildlife department. Maybe undercover trying to catch me. They'd ask me all kinds of turkey stuff and deer stuff, how many were they hunters? Claimed to be. I don't know. I wasn't going to go hunting with them, but they just keep coming back, coming back, coming back. And I finally, he said, you don't know what to think about us do you I said well I think you're undercover probably trying to catch me in some kind

of violation or something and they loaded their stuff up and left and I hadn't seen them since. You're pretty certain they were undercover guys? Yeah. Sometimes if you listen you can hear stuff. If you've got your ears open and your eyes open you might get a tip from somebody that and I was kind of on the look. You were just suspicious of these guys? Yeah. Yeah. So did you get a tip from somebody else? Yeah. How does that make you feel? I mean did at the time did that that didn't scare you? No it made me feel good that that man thought enough of me to save me a problem Oh, well, I wasn't a bit afraid of them now

Game more than there just people I'm not afraid of people See them coming a lot of times. I've been hunting with people a game more than drive up They just go all the pieces. We ain't done nothing wrong Man ain't gonna bother us Johnny's transparency today is notable. We're going to learn the nitty gritty of why he changed. But first, here's a lighter story about an interaction with a game warden that happened

during a legal hunting season. And then after this, we're gonna get real serious. hunting season. And then after this, we're going to get real serious. There was an old gentleman we know was calling to a turkey, so we just laid in the ditch. We didn't want to mess them up. We just lay in there listening. He had whacked a turkey, gobbled it, it wasn't coming. We'd played with him quite a bit.

He was not a player. He had gobbbble though, he was fine. And I said, look up an upper road there, and there come the game warden sneaking up a road. And we're laying there full of caliphate right in the ditch, and he got right at me, and I said, get somewhere and sit down. These wild turkeys we're hunting there, we can't kill them with you walking up and down the road there, what's matter to you? And it haddled him, kind of blowed him up or something. He went for his gun, but his lights down.

Boy, you don't need no gun now. We're just, I have another man calling this turkey, sit down here with. If you're gonna hunt with us, you need to get here early and wear some camouflage. You ain't got a shotgun all over you once. Now is this before season? No, this was during season.

This is during legal season. Yeah. But, yeah, we've had some wardens here. Johnny has painted a clear picture of his days of outlawing. But the one thing that those half a dozen people did tell me one by one before I met Johnny is that he is different today. He's changed they said. Even the game warden suggested this. Throughout this story you've heard that Johnny used to be an alcoholic and from one story we

learned that he used some drugs. I wanted to know how that started and why he changed so I asked him. Well I just made some bad choices hanging out with the wrong people and I'd been around Wild Cow Whiskey and Homebrew, and I just didn't handle it very well. And then I got over here, after I got my cabin, there was a preacher that coon hunted a lot. He would stop by to see me, and I was usually too drunk to talk to him, but I'd know he was here. I was raised in church, trained up in church like the books say, but I just let the world get the best of me. But when that preacher started coming here, it kind of got me to thinking. And I woke up one morning up the creek here with, I'd been on a pretty bad drum.

And when I woke up that particular morning, I didn't know where I was, how I got there, didn't know any of them people, didn't know where my truck was. I finally found someone I knew and got them to take me to my truck. In fact, I'd been gone about six months. I come over here deer hunting, it was after turkey season and I still hadn't been home. So I'd lost about everything. My wife, my family, my friends, my place, cattle, tractors, but I didn't care. I woke up one morning up here and I thought you're in a bad way and the only hope for you is Jesus. And by that preacher coming here I think that kind of rekindled the spirit that had been instilled in me as a kid. And I

decided I needed to get right with the Lord and get my life right and try to get my family back. And so I stopped on top of Horseshoe Mountain one morning, just getting daylight. And I asked the Lord to help me. I'm in a bind. Save me. Take this the Lord to help me. I'm in a bind. Save me. Take this addiction from me. Give me my life back. And I drove on to the cabin and I went out here by this fire pit and the sun was coming up then. And I saw a transformation in the east with that sun shining through the clouds like I had never seen before. Had to be a sign from God. A glimpse of heaven maybe, orange, purple, blue clouds, rays of light shining through

them. Pretty amazing. And my life was changed right there at that fire pit. Believe it or not, it was easier than you think. When you get Jesus involved in it, he took, when I gave my life to him, he took that addiction from me. Been 15 years, 319 days. I'll serve him, I believe.

And He took that from me. Yeah, I'd been locked up, dried out, in jail for public, drunk, all kinds of stuff. But when I got Jesus in my life, through the Holy Spirit, He took that addiction from me. I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I quit everything right there at the Holy Spirit. He took that addiction from me. I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I quit everything right there at the fire pit. It took a few months, but I had some time. I waited. I got my life back. I got my wife back, my family back. Lord has blessed me with a good cabin, a new house. I went from being an alcoholic with a drug addiction to a deacon and an ordained minister.

Some people get saved at an early age. I got a preacher friend told me he was saved when he was nine years old. Never broke any laws. I said, what'd you get saved from? You know, I've done it all. What I hadn't done, I just had never thought over, didn't want to try. I've done it all.

And it ain't no secret. But I'm not that way anymore. at all and that ain't no secret. I'm not that way anymore. Jesus has given me a whole new life, a whole new heart and a whole new mindset. I've got my wife back, my family back, about everybody quit. Jesus fixed all that. Better than it's ever been.

I still like to hunt. He goes with me. He likes mountains. It's clear that Johnny has been through the wringer, but it sounds like he's got things figured out now. There's more to people than the worst days of their past. And there's more for you than the worst days of their past. And there's more for you than the worst days of your past. The confessions of this former outlaw

is really a story of redemption. Thank you, Johnny, for sharing the nitty gritty of your story. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear, Grease, and Brent's This Country Life podcast. Please share this podcast with someone that you know that might be struggling or somebody that just enjoys a genuine story. Thank you all so much. Keep the wild places wild, because that's where the bears live. Lot of train whistles. Sitting right under that whistle, I've lost quite a bit of my hearing.

I used to get a good ear and of course good, but now I have to have someone go with me because my son-in-law said, if you hear a turkey johny, don't go to it. Sit down and start calling it. You're already too close. If you can hear it, you're already too close.

If you hear a gobble, you're already too close. That's funny. It is. Hey, Spencer Neuhearth here to tell you about an exciting new project. I am thrilled to introduce me, Dieter Wirtl. It's a word game where you- Wait, wait, wait. You can't call it that. Why?

Well, because of copyright stuff. That name is probably property of the New York Times or something. Oh, well, what should we call it? I don't know. What is it exactly? Well, it's a lot like Wordle. Players get six tries to solve a five-letter word from categories like hunting, fishing, animals, nature.

Then you get to compare your score to the scores from the meat eater crew, and new games will drop every Monday morning on our website. I think the perfect name would kinda sound like Wordle. You know, have two syllables and end with le. Oh and it has to be an outdoorsy word. Hmm. Introducing Meat Eater Turtle. It's like Wirtle but better. You can play it right now at themeateater.com slash games.