The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 702: How To Argue About Hunting and Fishing Like A Lawyer with Jefferson Fisher

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Jefferson Fisher, Ryan Callaghan, Brody Henderson, Spencer Neuharth, Randall Williams, Corinne Schneider, and Phil Taylor.  Topics discussed: How to communicate in tricky hunting and fishing scenarios; Jefferson’s book, “The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More”; sharing the same literary agency; "How to Argue Like A Lawyer"; chainsaw accidents and backing in so you can get out quickly later; “I’m always around but now always there”; courtroom tactics and how you don’t want teachers on the jury; Cal’s bench warrant for arrest; tons of advice on how to navigate tricky hunting and fishing situations well; “but” deletes everything after it and leading with “no”; and more. Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. You sailed beyond the horizon in search of an island scrubbed from every map. You battled crackens and navigated through storms. Your spades struck the lid of a long lost treasure chest. While you cooked the lasagna. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover best selling adventure stories on Audible. I've been running FHF Bino harnesses for over a decade and for the last couple years it

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dogs nothing about, tune in now. Meat Eater podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment, check it out at firstlight.com. F I R S T L I T E.com. Joined today by Jefferson Fisher. I'm excited you're here, man. You know, it was mostly excited to hear is Corrine.

Listen to this. Did you know, do you know this story? I kind of just told him, but. Corrine, she knew I was like, Hey, I want to get this dude, Jefferson Fisher on. And so it's in her mind and in her notes. Meanwhile, she's listening to a podcast. What's it called? Diary of a CEO. Diary of a CEO.

Diary of a CEO. And you're on it, but she doesn't make the connection. She listens, she likes it so much. She listens to it twice and shares it with people. And then one day she's like, Oh wow, that's the dude we're having on. I thought there were two Jefferson fishers. Yeah. There's a lot of us, tons of us.

Well, yeah, we're always like kicking around so many names. It's hard to, you know what I mean? Yeah, we got like, Oh, what about the, you know, maybe this guy tons of us. Well, you're always like kicking around so many names Yeah, we got like oh, you know, maybe this guy be cool this whatever so she's like sort of in her head is this Thing I asked about when your book comes out. Yes, and then at the same time She's listening to you and then one day has a like, oh Well, thank you Corinne. Yeah, you bet. Yeah. I'm honored to be here. This is the one like I was super nerding out about that. I was got to be on this podcast. Uh, Jefferson Fisher is a, uh, by training a trial attorney from Texas, but he just

published his first book called the next conversation, argue less, talk more. He's a hunter. Um, I got turned down to him. We have, we're, we're with the same literary agency, right? Europa. That's right. Now where I've, I've been with Mark at Europa as well as just trying to get there for over

20 years. Yeah. Mark is fantastic. Yeah. And he's the one that kind of like found me and moved me from magazine writing into books. So he was the one. Oh yeah.

Okay. So Tess, one. Oh yeah. Okay. So Tess, uh, who is kind of his protege's works under him is the one who found me and she emailed me just a cold email and I'd had several others, but this whatever reason I read hers and the subject line was literally hello from a literary agent, like that was their subject line. It's a pickup line.

Exactly. And so I had seen a few and I looked it up and I saw, of course you go to see who they represent and I saw your name and I was like, no way. And because your name was on it, I said, yes, I'll, I'll go with y'all because I mean, I read your book. It's weird I didn't get like a commission, I'll go with y'all because I mean, I read your book. Like a commission. Exactly. Yeah. You need to talk to Mark about it.

Honestly. Yeah. Uh, cause I pretty much said with anything was meat eater. I was buying, I think I bought every book. I've watched every episode. Yeah. I got, I got the bench made meat eater knife.

Like I was, I was like, yeah, man. Uh, and so it was a huge influence of like when I talked to Tess and I'll say, yeah, man. And so it was a huge influence of, like when I talked to Tess, and I was like, did y'all really represent Renella? And she's like, oh yeah, he's great. And then talked about Danielle, who I followed her before, all of her cooking stuff. And yeah, and so to be here

is just super full circle for me. That's awesome. I got turned on to Jefferson by watching his, that this fellow we talked about shared his video series with me where you sit in your car. Well, tell them what you do. Tell them about your video. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I, this is good. Cause this, let me, everyone listening, this, this is highly, we're going to demonstrate. This is highly relevant to your life, how to communicate, okay? But also we're gonna learn today how to communicate in the trickiest hunting and fishing scenarios that people encounter.

So how to navigate the awkward parts. But also you can use this, you don't call them tricks, do you? No, never. Cause you're not like playing mind games. No, I mean, I guess you could say they are. I mean, you'll use these tricks on your wife too. Uh, yeah.

If you, and just don't share this episode with her. Yeah. Oh yeah. Don't. Yeah. That's a good point, man. Yeah. If you're listening with your wife in a car right now, change it.

Because later when you start influencing her heavy duty, she's going to know that she's going to be like, you're doing that from the podcast. Yeah. It's interesting because if you're, if you're writing on this subject, you don't want your reach to expand so far that your readers are using it on themselves. And then all of a sudden it becomes obsolete. Yeah. I get a lot of comments of people saying, I'm using this on my husband or my wife, and I don't tell them. And so I'll have people that will say, or a couple, I'll have like a mom or a dad say, I'm using this on my wife,

and they ask me the other day, like, are you, is that from that attorney guy? Like they'll point it out. Exactly, they're like, I saw that video too. Like I know what you're trying to do. All I can think about is the is these aren't the droids you're looking for. Yeah.

Is there a hand gesture involved, subtle one? I'd be honored if it was still very much the Jedi one that you're using, just right in motion. Yeah, so. Yeah, the videos you made. Yeah, I make videos. I started making videos in my car, so full-time practicing trial attorney. and I left a big defense firm that was

at and then started my own and I thought, well, I need to be on social media. And so I started making videos and I thought I need to have the perfect lights, the perfect camera. And so I thought, well, I'll just, I got my truck. I got my car, kids car seat in the back. I'll just make it where I'm at. And, uh, I thought, well, what do I need to do? I just tell them what I feel like I know.

That's how to help people argue and communicate. And so I, I got my phone and said, how to argue like a lawyer part one. And then by like the fourth video, it had gone viral and then it blew up that quick. Yeah. Real quick. Five million followers.

Yeah. I have, yeah, I think we're today, I think, I think we'll hit six million today on Instagram and we have about 12 million total on across the platform. And you obviously start each video. The whole world's going to be good at arguing. Yeah. Say what?

The whole world's going to be good at arguing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, everybody's going to be great. So, yeah, so, uh, I've been doing it for a little over two years now. You start each video with something catchy, like, have you recently been exposed to That's exactly right

Yeah, Mr. Dilley Oma as best as all Exactly call this you may be entitled to it. That's exactly right here, but your video series wasn't meant to Know like a good check. It wasn't to drum up lawyer business. No, it never was. And so I found that when I was talking about the law, like the first few videos I made, just to kind of see how Instagram worked, because it used to not, they didn't always have video. I mean, video was only to compete with TikTok. And I didn't really like it. I just, I felt like it was trying to sell stuff to everybody. So when I started my, how to argue like a lawyer,

it would be like how to have a difficult conversation. Number one, do this, two, number two, do this, three, do this, and then that was it. And then those just started to really, people became where they would say I binged them, where they would just go video after video after video. And I never saw any of this. I just considered this kind of a hobby

and I would do it for about 30 minutes after work between work and home. And that's how it happened. This has nothing to do with anything, but you know what I'm binging right now? Cause my wife turned me on to it last night is this dude that, this dude that sings. He does like a male and female role of singing the most like graphic, awkward Tinder exchange. I know exactly who you're talking to. female role of singing the most like graphic, awkward Tinder exchange. I know exactly who you're talking about.

You're going to have to share it with me. You will get lost down the hole. It's so, it's so graphic that I'm not going to name who he is because I don't want to be complicit. Well, you're going to have to share that with me because I want to see. It's so funny. I love how you can- Like some of these like very, very unusual, distinct requests.

Oh, there, distinct requests. There's no doubt. And what I love so much about this is just not the videos that are great. Now it's the comments are hilarious. Like you'll go to content just to read the comments. You know, people are hilarious. That's my favorite part about it. But that's how we got started in all of this was just the videos in the car. What was your first exposure to hunting as a kid?

Uh, um, my dad would take me probably six or seven, go duck hunting, put me on his shoulders while he was waiting. So we, um, down in Texas, down in Texas. So we have, uh, a few different properties and this one is, uh, touches both the Angelina and the Natchez river right there below Lake Sam Raeburn.

Is that how you say it from, if you're from there, Natchez? Natchez, yeah. Natchez. Yeah, in Montana we say Natchez. Yeah, well it's N-E-C-H-E-S, Natchez. Yeah, Natchez. I only care about what people,

for me the final word is what is the dude that lives there? Yeah, exactly, yeah, it's Natchez. Yeah, you got this bean, Angelina Natchez. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, it's just a marsh out there and so we would, he would take me and we'd, uh, shoot or he would shoot a wood docks. And then, oh really?

Yeah. And then, um, I would get taken, uh, to go goose hunting. We go goose hunt every year. I'm almost every year of my life. We've gone goose hunting down in Eagle Lake, which is not too far from Katie Houston, west of Houston, big rice fields.

And I was kind of the, the substitute dog, you know, I was the, they'd be like, go find that one. Exactly. And there was nothing more exciting. I mean, I would just take off to go find it. And so come back with, with the geese. And then, um, yeah, I think starting about eight was the first time I actually started deer hunting with a rifle.

So early. Yeah, way early. And then I switched to bow hunting probably when I was about 14, 15. Switched, switched. Hung up the gun. No, I mean not totally. Did you get a felony? No, yeah. That's the different. That's my first question. Avid bow hunters, not to hack on them, people that only hunt with a bow. Yeah. My first question is, like a felony?

You got something, you got something. You got something right. You just run down all the questions on the 4473. Exactly. Have you ever renounced United States citizenship? Yeah, exactly. No, no, I did not hang it up for good. No, I just, that was the first time I really took up the bow and had a whole lot of fun with it when I was probably about 14, 15, right before I started driving. So that's where you're at now.

Yeah. I guess so. You're avid bow hunter now. Yeah. Bow hunter for sure. Um, but also a gun gets the job done. So I, I'm not one of those that's, my grandfather is very much only bow. He got to where, um, because he couldn't pull it back because he had shoulder surgery.

He did it with his teeth. Oh, you're kidding me. Once you guys buy him a crossbow. That's what we did. Okay. We did. We got him a crossbow eventually because he was losing too many teeth. So he started losing too many teeth.

And so we're like, I said, Papa John, we got to do something. So now he's, now he's got a crossbow that he steps on and pulls it back. And so he's one of these he'll hunt until he can't hunt anymore. We actually just had a goose hunt up in Lubbock and that was the first time. That he didn't get a, he just couldn't get his gun up fast enough. Yeah.

And that was like really, that was a really hard, yeah, that was like really, really hard on him, um, to realize he couldn't that was a really hard. Yeah, I was like really really hard on him To realize he couldn't get it up fast enough. Hmm. So but yeah hunting's been part of my own Sounds like he's a good hunter though because we recently hunted with a bunch of guys all In a big field set up this winter and there are two older guys out there. Yeah, and They were having a hard time being on time. Right. But eventually they were like,

well screw the rest of you. And you'd look down the line, everybody's all covered up, and you'd look down the line and they'd just be up like this. They'd already be set. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, so he was definitely the one that,

in our family that kept, set the tone for the hunting and yeah, he's done I mean every hunt in Africa he's done moose up in Alaska. He's done bear. He's done. I mean he's caribou you name it. That's like his that's his thing I like that you Began your book it's bold. I begin your book with a hunting story, right? I was curious how that was gonna be taken Well, yeah, because you could do it and a lot of guys would be like, um, they'd be like, well I don't want to do that because it might turn people on exactly, you know, whatever

But yeah, so I always like to applaud people who are just like hang it out there Yeah, I had a guy I still want to say well, I guess I could say his name now. I Had a guy one time call me he was married to a very famous singer. Okay. What genre did he make videos on about thunder exchange? He called he she's trying to get hold me one time like passes a message. He wants to talk. It's just like to tell me and he tells me flat out he's a closeted hunter and he says

he has a game room that you wouldn't know was in his house. Unless he took you to it. Because he can't let anybody know because the business he's in and the business his wife's in. Wow. Isn't that wild? I mean, I can understand it. But yeah, that's the... I mean, I can relate to that to a little bit, but...

I don't want to betray his trust. Yeah, I understand that. With one phone call, it's like he had to tell somebody. I was like, I kept thinking there was going gonna be like a thing in the end like an invitation There's no do you want to be a pop singer? We got to put out a hotline confession system. Yeah Like pull a trigger now and then I understand buddy Yeah, I was puzzled though, I thought there's I was just waiting for I thought there's more to the story but I'm not being it

I gotta tell um, I was puzzled though. I thought there I was waiting for I thought there's more to the story, but I'm not being it I gotta tell um I'll tell two quick stories. I think are pretty funny. You'll have to bear with because they're about a guy You don't know what everybody else knows him. That's fine. You know Doug Dern. I just came we every year I take my kids since my little boy was Four mm-hmm. My 14 year old was for the first time he went there. That was awesome to hunt Turkeys at Doug's place now we go during the the kiddy season, the two day long kid season. So we go over here. We're just at Doug's place and Doug, anybody's hung out with him like,

is adamant that people like, he backs in his car. He doesn't call it backing in, pointing out. Yeah, when I didn't on his property He like called me out for it. That's the first His thing, you know what it comes from so his his grandpa or knows dad got attacked by his own chainsaw one time and Had to drive himself to like hit himself in the brisket with a chainsaw good Oh

And drove himself to a hospital. So Doug's telling my, he's telling my kids this story. And even, and even though Doug's dad is, manages to get in his car and drive all the way to the hospital, Doug explains to my kids if he hadn't backed in, he'd be dead. explains to my kids if he hadn't backed in he'd be dead. If he hadn't backed in, it wouldn't have worked. I was like, Doug, so you're saying that he got in the car and made it to the hospital, but backing out would have been the end of it. That would have been.

That would have sealed the deal. I'm sure that was the observation of the physician that treated him. Yeah. I was like, it's fine to tell my kids to back in but you don't need to like do like revision to scare tactics. I was really trying to make an imprint there. If you had him backed in he'd be dead. I associate that with volunteer firemen. All the volunteer firemen I know they back in because if they get a fire call

they want to be out of there as quick as possible. Yeah so somebody who one of my best friends he's now the COO of the, my law firm, and he always backs in. That comes from law enforcement. He's been a law enforcement his whole life. So that's just ingrained to him to always back out. I try to do it. I try to do it, but I get lazy now and then.

But you know, the thing about it, either way you gotta back out at some point. It's like you just, you either do it at the beginning or you do it at the end. Yeah. I try to like do that. The other point, this is the end of my, my things about Doug, but Doug, my buddy Doug's got a buddy Kiefer and they're talking about

another guy getting caught up by his own chainsaw. And this guy calls Doug a lot of incidents. I'm seeing a theme. Yeah. Woodlot management country. Yeah. Everything is like cutting his, cutting that. Another guy gets hurt by his chainsaw and he calls, like Doug finds out, but Doug's not around. And Doug's like, well, Kiefer's all around, always around. So he calls Kiefer to notify about the chainsaw injury. And Kiefer had a great quote. He says, I'm always around, but I'm never quite there.

That's good. That's good. That needs to be on like a magnet or a bumper sticker. Yeah, it's a great. That's a great line. Always around but not always there. Okay, so your book. Yeah. First book, the next conversation, argue, less, talk more. Mm-hmm. I got it. I got a, this is the, I haven't read it. That's fine. I read the beginning. I always like to tell people, because I feel like a lot of times people don't come out, come clean. Oh yeah.

I've been on lots of podcasts and you know good and well, they've never, they haven't even cracked it open. It's fine. Not a problem. No. No. How'd you like, so you, you, uh, try to take all you learned. Yeah.

And put it in there. Some of it. Yeah. It was walking through you learned. Yeah. And put it in there. Some of it. Yeah. It was walking through the book. Yeah. The, um, well, it kind of has to be all you learned because I'm keep looking at that title and trying to make a sequel out of it. And it's hard.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's definitive. The conversation after that one. Yeah. The next conversation. Still arguing.

Yeah. Exactly. Question mark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The conversation after the next conversation. Still arguing? Yeah. Exactly. Question mark? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the conversation after the next one. Yeah, so I'm a social media that where, when I was posting these videos, people would leave a comment, say,

you need to write a book, please write a book, please write a book. And I thought, well, I guess I'll write a book. I mean, I was Googling, how do you write a book? And then Tess came along. I mean, that's as simple as that. What does it say when you write that in? And then Tess came along. I mean, that's as simple as that. What does it say when you write that in?

It talks about self publishing really. And, uh, I thought I was going to self publish it. And, and then Tess came along and saved me and Mark came and saved me. Um, and so I, the idea was I need to, I wanted to provide the people that follow me, my framework with how, how to communicate how I do it my thoughts on it So that if they want to go and not need me There you go. You don't have to watch my content anymore You got the you got the book, but it's not just a summary of every every one of my hit

Viral videos or every one of that's not just a regurgitation So it lays out three different rules talks about how to say things with control, say things with confidence, and say it to connect. And the idea is that people weren't watching my stuff to handle the last conversation. They were watching that the change how they were going to handle the next conversation. And that's how this whole thing kind of came about, how to help people argue less and talk more. Tell me about the three things. Yeah. The three, like, like give me a summation of what you mean by the, the, whatever the hell you just laid out.

Yeah. Uh, yeah, whatever that is. I can't remember now. Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to forget. The, uh, uh, rule one state with control is all about, rather than trying to control the other person, things that you can do

with within your own body to help control yourself, you know, just yourself. Just kind of control, regulate your own emotions before you get into it. Not excite the moment, make it worse. Saying things with confidence is learning about how to find your assertive voice. You have people that might over-apologize or find ways to be really hesitant with their words. This is more about how to lean into it and be more assertive when you communicate. Three is how to say things to connect. This is more about how to lean into it and be more assertive when you communicate. Three is how to say things to connect, which is all about how to handle difficult conversations. How do you deliver bad news?

How do you tell someone no, and you're not really sure how to deal with it? How do you deal with these conversations that you're dreading while you're brushing your teeth and driving there and you know you gotta have it, but you don't know how? And so this gives a good framework for all of that. I like to say that some people might teach you

how to play an instrument. I teach you the, I give you the sheet music. I tell you what chords to play. That's kind of how I've. Is this, are those rules things that all trial lawyers learn or is this stuff you learned along the way? Yeah, great question. Now this is law school doesn't teach a squat about reading people only teaches you how

to read the law, how to apply case law to certain facts and spot issues. Uh, now trial trials courtroom certainly can give you a lot of training and communication. How do you handle conflict? Because everything you do, you're being watched. You, you'll probably like this. So a lot of your really good attorneys, uh, the ones that, let's just say, make a

lot of money, they do really well. They won't wear their Rolex and drive their Mercedes to the courtroom. They have, they have another, no, the good ones wear it. They have a different truck. They have like an old beat up 87 Chevy. I'd have my ma drop me off. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so they, they were like the second hand suit, they, they, uh, because as soon as you pull into the parking lot, jurors, perspective jurors, they're all watching you the whole, the whole way. So if you come in and you have like a whole

team of five paralegals, it just means. The Johnny Cochran approach. Yeah, exactly. So you have people that, um, Oh yeah. Cause as soon as you walk in, they're looking at everything because if you, if you, exactly. So if you come in with a whole bunch of people, they're going to assume you have a whole bunch of money. That means your client has put a whole lot of money, which means they're trying to hide something because they're afraid of this case. So, um, it's, it's very, very tactical as soon as you,

and it starts in the parking lot. It really does. But so any time you go into the courtroom, you're being watched. You have your 12 jurors or maybe six, if you're in a county court, you got the judge, the bailiff, the court reporter, opposing counsel,

paralegals, people that are back in the audience. Everything you do is watched. You searched for your informant who disappeared without a trace. You knew there were witnesses, but lips were sealed. You swept the city, driving closer to the truth. While curled up on the couch with your cat. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover heart-pounding thrillers on Audible.

Steve Rinella here. The American West with Dan Flores is a new podcast production on the MeatEater Podcast Network. It's hosted by author and historian Dan Flores, who happens to be mine and our own Dr. Randall's former professor. By focusing on deep time, wild animals, native peoples in the West's unique environments, Flores will challenge your understanding of the American West and he will help to explain why it is the way it is today. I count Dan Flores as a friend. We do not agree on everything, but he has had a massive impact on my understanding of American history.

And, uh, I invite you to get challenged by him in the same way that I have. Catch the premiere of the American West with Dan Flores on Tuesday, May 6th on the MeatEater Podcast Network. Subscribe to the American West with Dan Flores on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Dan and it will stretch your brain all out. And I mean that in a very good way Okay

Nothing to do with that don't matter. Yeah Kate, but I'm glad to be here Well, I want to get your quick feedback from something happening when I was 18 years old Okay, if this is normal or not, I tell the story all the time. I never asked someone who would know. Okay, I had jury duty And it's a it's a crack cocaine Trial criminal trial. Yeah, okay and they're they're pushing for a felony or like a Sorry a life sentence for a crack dealer. Mm-hmm. We go through this whole trial and

It's like wiret taps and translators, you know. And you make it on the jury? I'm on the jury. Yeah, I sat through the whole thing, man. It was fascinating. I loved it. So what they had to prove is that he had sold a certain threshold of crack and they had bought, the undercover guys had bought like 90% of what they needed. Okay. Just, so all they needed to do was through money and all that other, like there has to have been another whatever pound.

I don't know what the hell it was. Right. Remember? Right. So the whole logic was like, here's all the, what we bought. And if he sold 10% more through his career, he would have trafficked X quantity of crack. And we come back very quickly with a guilty verdict. The judge was his dude named Mike Cobza.

I'll always remember that. Okay. He says, we do the whole thing. They take the guy away. And he says, I'd like you to hang tight a minute to the jury. All right? And he says if any of you has any feeling of remorse about what you just did I want to tell you a couple things about that guy and Tells us all the non admissible evidence right all the double jeopardy shit. Yeah, is that normal? Very normal. Okay? Yeah It's normal. It's fascinating. It's normal. And so- He's like, oh, now I'm gonna tell you, they did buy more than they needed, but it got- Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he had this and had that.

Yep. And he's like, whatever, shot his girlfriend. Exactly. Yeah, any of it. Yeah, it's very, very common. And so, it's criminal trial. In civil trial, we get to ask questions of the jurors. So after the trial is over, if we want,

we can ask the panel. So we can go and ask them, how'd you like to trial? What evidence did you find? We know how you ruled. You know, what, what, what. Exactly. And they, and they're free to answer or not. But often you have, the jurors will come to you

after the trial, after you're done, whatever they, they've, they've ruled, judgment on it, and then you get to ask them what piece of evidence did you like, what did you not like, what did you find most compelling? And so you'll have some that come up and hug, you know, your client, just, I just want, I'm so sorry for all you've been through. There's people who hate the other side. I mean, or they might hate you. I mean, you just never, you never know, but yeah, you can definitely talk to them. So it helps you hone your craft too.

Big time. Because you think that the one piece of evidence that you thought was so crucial, like, no, I got to get this in. They didn't care a lick about that. It didn't even enter their system. They were focused on this and you had no idea. You're watching, they're watching your watch. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Every little thing, because, uh, like, for example, if let's say I need to, other side objects to some evidence and it's what they would call a quick, maybe objection battle in front of the jury, which you typically don't wanna do. But when they say, can we approach the bench? Oh, did you say that again?

I understand. Yeah, so let's say I need to object to a piece of evidence that's coming in. Say, your honor, objection, your honor, whatever it is, relevance here, say, you name it. And you typically will say, can we approach? Meaning, we wanna go to the bench and have this discussion

because we don't want the jury to hear it. Juries don't like that because it feels like, how come y'all get to talk and we don't get to hear it? Like, they're like, oh, what are y'all talking about? And they don't like that. So when you have an attorney who's objecting a lot, it's going where do you where do you hiding? What are you not wanting me to hear? They'll count that against them or oh, even though the judge says hey, never mind this exactly Even though the judge says specifically they're gonna object to that don't pay attention to it

They absolutely pay attention to it and then you watch how the people leave It's like when you say to your kids don't listen to what me and mom are gonna say right now. Exactly, that's exactly right. And so when you leave, when the judge makes his ruling, now it could be, we could have out in front, I don't have to approach the bench, we could just talk. But as soon as we're coming back, if you look defeated, or you look mad, or you look upset, let's say I objected to something and I lost,

the other side's gonna go, okay, whatever is about to be said is gonna hurt their case. Like they pick on upon it even more. So you have to be really strategic about if it's a fact that hurts you. Often it's better to just let it in. Don't, don't try and fight it because they'll most likely won't even pay attention.

After lunch, somebody just had Mexican food. They have Tex-Mex on there. You know, somebody's nodding, somebody's writing notes. The other person's looking off. Like you never know. Like a teacher, you typically don't want teachers on your jury. Like when we're picking jurors, because they'll hold class.

They'll say, well, no, if you watch X, Y, and Z, and then they want, they corral everybody in the room. And so they start to teach. And if a teacher is for you, that's the best thing. If a teacher's against you, you're cooked. You're absolutely cooked. Yeah. It's funny how that, that works.

I feel like asking you for hot tips on how to get out of jury duty for people, but that's kind of anti-American. Yeah, it is anti-American. I mean, pretty much it's, it's the percentage of even getting to the jury duty is very small. I mean, actually getting it's, it's the percentage of even getting to the jury duty is very small. I mean, actually getting picked, actually getting picked. I mean, I think anybody should be part of that experience. I mean, that's just, it's a system unlike any other.

I want nothing more than to serve on a jury. Yeah. I've never got, I got, I got a summons and then I realized that I live, cause we live outside of city limits. I wasn't eligible to be in that trial, and I was just defeated. Yeah. Oh, that's rough.

Would Randall's loving to be on a jury disqualify him from being on a jury? No. If he said, oh no, I'm just excited to be here, I just wanna be on a jury. Yeah, they like that. They like that. I have a friend who's been on two incredible

juries. That's cool. Really good stuff. Oh yeah I'll tell you how to get out of it if you really want to. No and there's nothing wrong with this. It's whenever the so they'll call it in some parts of Texas they say voir dire or parts of the US they say voir dire. They use French in Texas? No in Texas we say voir dire. We call it voirordaer. And so what you do is you take all the jurors, everybody's got their pink slips or whatever, they come in and it's just like a big cattle call. They're all sitting down. And so the attorneys, the lawyers, we come up and start asking questions, trying to narrow down and we pick who we want on the jury.

But it's not, you can't just say like dodgeball, I want to pick Steve, I want to pick whoever, it's not that, it's by process of elimination, so you have to say who you don't want and whoever is left is who's going to be on the jury. I have a number of strikes, the other person has a, other attorney has a number of strikes, and I can just strike somebody because I don't like anything about them, I can just say I got a funny feeling about this person and I strike. It can be a discriminatory reason. But whoever's left is how they get on.

So if you want to get off the jury, be very opinionated at their questions. So if they're going to ask a question of, you know, how do you feel about lawsuits? And if you just answer, you know, I hate lawsuits, I hate attorneys. I hate everything. This whole thing, you will not get picked. Yeah. That's what I figured. You just play that game or, or, or you just don't even care if someone's guilty or not, if they've been accused of a crime, hang them.

Yeah, I'm telling you. Yeah. Yeah. Or on the civil side, meaning the non-criminal side, if it's, you know, uh, there's way too many lawsuits in the world or, you know, I think everybody should just, uh, I don't, I hate big companies, you're going to get off the jury because somebody's gonna say,

you're too opinionated already. You're not showing that you're fair and impartial. Like, and this kind of relates to my world. I had, this is probably about a year and a half back, I'm taking Vordar and I, uh, I'm asking my questions. Is a motor vehicle case and I go sit down, the defense attorney stands up and he has his, you know, his readers and he's, he's asking his questions and he does the first time I've ever

heard anybody ask this. He says, anybody here follow a Mr. Fisher's, uh, uh, is a social media. Anybody follow social media and probably about 60% of the hands Yeah, I mean and I never expected any of this or you like how many of you know, I have my book yeah Yeah, and so I got signed copies in the trough right exactly. Yeah, and so this is Anyway, and so he was kind of taken back, I was taken back,

and I remember looking at my client like, I didn't expect that either. And so because he asked that question, you then have to show that each person could be fair and impartial. So even if you're related to somebody in the trial, you still have to show, can you be fair and impartial? And so he goes, starts going down with every person who raised their hand, can you be fair and impartial? And so he goes, starts going down with every person who raised their hand, can you be fair and impartial? Some people go, oh yeah, yeah, I can still, you know, take the evidence as it comes, no problem. Well, then he got to this one lady, this sweet little lady, and he said,

ma'am, can you think you can be fair and impartial? And she said, no, sir, I don't believe I could. And he goes, and why would that be? Which he should not have asked that. He should have just said, well, thank you, ma'am. And gone on to the next one. And she goes, well, you know what? I just watched every one of his videos.

He is so kind and genuine. And I think if he has his case with his client, it's a real case. It's a real case. And then there were several in the audience, you know, in the panel who like shook their head like, yeah, I kind of agree. And he, and he just goes, uh, thank you. Thank you very much.

And so we went on, continue on. And I was like trying not to bust out laughing and we settled the case about 30 minutes later. Yeah. That just goes to show. I never expected that. Yeah. Or I'll have a judge at the end of a hearing that I've never been in front of before. As we're both leaving with the other attorney, he'll say, Mr. Fisher, I like what you're doing.

I use that on my wife. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We had a trial attorney right in one time. I'm hazy on some of the details, but he was sharing with us that he was doing jury selection. And he didn't tell us if he wanted the, he wanted to be able to identify any hunters in the jury. Oh, okay.

He never said if he wanted to get them in or out, but he also said he didn't want his logic to be understood by the other side. Interesting. And he wrote in because he said, I asked, do any of you listen to the meat eater podcast? Oh, that's a good way to ask. But he never gave me any of the details. Like, did he want them in or out?

He probably, it depends, depends. So historically, plaintiffs benefit, and that means somebody who has the complaint, somebody who's been hurt, somebody who's suing somebody else. This is on the civil side. It could be on the criminal side too. Those that are more right-leaning are more likely to say yes, they're guilty, they're more likely to

turn down somebody who's on a civil lawsuit, so they're gonna lean in favor of the business, not the person who's hurt. So the plaintiffs are people who typically lean or benefit from somebody who's more, let's say liberal leaning. And then you have your blue counties, your red counties. I mean, it's very much controlled. And it's like the state of Texas, very red now. And so that leans on what kind of jurors you're going to get. So most likely, let's say if most hunters, let's just put a generalized statement, most hunters lean a certain way, then that's what he's hoping for of that kind of mindset.

Now there's always exceptions, but that's, that's kind of how they roll. What my guess wound up being, I should have written them back. My guess was that it was a, maybe a poaching case. Oh yeah. If he wanted to trivialize the offense, like it's just an elk who cares. Yeah, right. You'd want to get all the hunters out of there. Oh, for sure. You know, then to then paint a picture like this, he shot an elk on his own place, who gives a shit?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or whatever. If it's a poaching case, did he say where he lived? Man, we'd have to go find it. No, that's fine. But yeah, I only remember as much as I'm telling you. Yeah, but I mean, that just goes to show you, it's case by case. There's some people that I would,

depending on the facts, I definitely want to majority. There's some that I would not want a million miles from the deliberation room. And so you have people that, yeah, if they're a hunter, they're gonna take conservation a lot more seriously. And yeah. I had a bench warrant for my arrest. I'd like to say one time.

His openings are the best. I love how he- I've had a couple, just added pure negligence, not out of real solid criminal activity. Like from not checking your mail? From not checking my mail. Yep, yep. And I was notified that I had a bench warrant.

I was guiding at the time. So I'd spent a lot of time in the woods, not in cell reception and definitely not getting mail. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, it was for not paying a parking ticket for like a very long time, I think, or a speeding ticket or something.

And, uh, so I go into the courtroom, submit my, I have my letter finally. Yeah. Very overdue letter, submit it. They're like, yeah, great. That, you know, standing line over here, the judge will see it loud in, in Missoula. And, um, I really dressed basically like I am right now. I'm like, oh my God, this is not going to go well. basically like I am right now.

I'm like, oh my God, this is not going to go well. And, um, and so they finally get through, get, get up to me and it's my turn. And, and I'm like, yep, you know, guilty for the ticket. Uh, you know, can I explain what happened? And the judge was like, sure. I said, yeah, you know, I spend a lot of time in the woods and I don't have access to mail or, you know, but I'm in town now. And, and the judge just like basically said some version of, yeah, I believe you. But, and it was purely based off of appearance, right?

Right, right, right. Yeah. And so now having this conversation, I am, I'm like, I'm wondering if I would have, if anything would have changed. If you'd worn your Rolex? Yeah. If I would have gone and found a suit or, you know, borrowed my buddy's ties and stuff like that.

No, probably not. Like I find that most of your courthouses, especially the smaller ones, they're just good small town people. And if you just treat them with kindness, like if you're just nice, you're not rude, I can't believe I just got this. I mean, the person who has all the power is really your county clerk.

Those ladies behind the desk who's, same for like your court coordinator, those are the people who have the real power in those courthouses. Oh yeah, those are the people who have the real power in those courthouses. Oh yeah, those are the ones that sway the judges. Because when you're in trial, the judge, the court report, the bailiff, they all go back to the chamber.

You know what they do? They talk trash on your entire trial. I mean, they're kind of laying bets on who's gonna win, what evidence is good. Oh yeah, they gossip about everything. Yeah, and so they already kind of know in their mind, oh, no, that evidence is gonna work or that is not gonna go well,

or who's winning and who's not winning. So that, I mean, it's like their junk TV, man. Yeah, yeah, the whole thing. But no, I think how you set it up, I wouldn't have changed that. Because if you're trying, well, there is a difference between people who, let's say if you wore a real nice suit and you dressed all up and then you acted like a jerk, that is never

gonna, yeah, they're not gonna go well. But I mean, you definitely fit the look. So, you know, I was at the fish and game office. Yeah. I have no reason to not believe this. Really? I went to the fishing game office with a coworker right down the road. Uh huh.

Who gets arrested while we're in there because of a bench warrant. Amazing. I've heard his version. I was wondering if this is going to come up. Did you stick around and see how it turned out? Or you just started reading stuff on the wall. Cuffed and stuffed. You're kidding me.

Well, ye you took care of what you had to take care of, man. That's awesome. It'd have been hilarious if he was like reading stuff on the wall and he's like, John, John, where'd you go? Yeah, cause like you go down and you present your name and they, whatever. Unreal. Coughed and stuffed.

Have you worked any outdoor crimes before? No, no outdoor crimes. All of my stuff is civil. I have a lot of friends that do criminal law. You're either on the state side prosecuting or you're defending them. I mean, we have, our game wardens are pretty cool. Everybody's really chill down where I'm at.

So I live in Southeast Texas, a little bit north of a town called Beaumont. Oh yeah. So it's called Sillsby is the name of where I'm at. So I live in Southeast Texas, a little bit north of a town called Beaumont. Oh yeah. So it's called Sillsby is the name of where I live and just deep East Texas. Yeah. That's like, you guys have boot and on there. Oh yeah.

We got boot in. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So it's, what I love so much about the area is you have your lakes, you have your rivers,

you have the Gulf right there. I'm about 45 minutes from the Gulf. Which Gulf is that? I call the Gulf of Mexico. Everybody wants to correct you nowadays. Like it's Gulf of Mexico for me, man. Dude, we were doing VO the other day. Yeah.

We had like, we're doing VO for a meteor episode, which occurred there, you know, and it was so hard to like navigate it. I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, what do you call it? Yeah. So I said, uh, I settled on the Gulf of, uh, you know, yeah, this is probably the best way you could do it. Yeah.

So, uh, yeah, we're in the- It's like so silly. It is. I think they'd like change names of things. But at the same time, it's like, it's also, it's so silly, but it's also like, I don't wanna get into it. It's like a little war.

It's a little language. It's like a little, hey, I'll show you what it's like. Exactly. To have to choose your words real careful all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we handle that conflict? Let's get into our...

Oh yeah, no, we gotta get into the middle. Okay. Who's got this first one about, uh, we're going to put the, we're going to put this to the test now. Oh, what do y'all have? Everybody's got... We've got a surprise. We've got the quiz.

No, no, no, just scenarios. Okay. Do you can help us walk through? Well, the first one is how to properly execute the insult compliment sandwich. But I want to get into this. I want to do that. I want to go to specifics first just to get to flavor.

Who's got this one about this starts coworkers and girlfriends. I don't know who wrote that one, but it's sure good. Where'd it come from? Who wrote that one? Man, I wish we could find out. Co-workers and girlfriends. Always casually asking back ups. You're just gonna read it for us? Yeah. Okay, wherever it came from. He's admitting it was him. I don't know, it's an open

document. Everybody's got access to it. Okay, so he's gonna hit you. He's gonna, you follow. I guess he's gonna hit you and you're gonna help us think through, you're gonna help walk through how to handle difficult situations. I love it. And at the end of the day, whoever wrote it is not really the point. Right. They still love their girlfriend. Yeah. These are universal problems.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. You know, people write in and message and stuff all the time. So we get a lot of info. Sometimes they have a mustache. Yeah. Co-workers and girlfriends always casually ask about hunting spot locations.

Unfortunately, they cannot be trusted, not because they are stealing spots, but because they don't understand that this information can never be brought up in a casual conversation ever. The reasoning behind my non-answers to these questions have already been explained, but they continue to ask anyway. So now I just lie, which I hate. How do you navigate that scenario? So for whoever wrote this in, I would ask them this kind of clarifying question, and maybe you have an idea of what they might say. Is this a conversation that's happening in front of other people, or is this just one

on one with whoever this girlfriend or spouse might be? And coworkers, let's not forget the coworkers part. It can be both, it can be both. So you have something, okay, this is super specific. So let's say there's a piece of information that you're telling someone, I can't tell you that, and they're having to continually repeat

that kind of thing. Do you feel that they're just breaking that trust? Is it intentional from this other person, or is it just, they're just not thinking about it? They're just not thinking about it. It's not internalized on the same level as, it's typically like a younger hunter versus a more seasoned hunter.

Because right, the value of that information only increases over time. Okay, so give me a little insight here. When you- Where are you? Certain spots are, yeah. Certain spots, are they, this is news to me, like you just don't, if you're like,

hey, this is a great area, we're not gonna go, we're not gonna tell people that we're hunting there? Yeah, like, yeah, like, this is a great area we're not gonna go we're not gonna tell people that we're hunting yeah like yeah like this is a part this is a public land problem ah okay or fish or a fishing problem you got a circle of trust who you might share it with but then like there's people that you're not gonna yes like I like Cal let's say a guy like Cal yeah just as an example a guy like Cal has girlfriend says where, well, where are you? Oh, okay.

Then he goes, I'm up on a Narnia business Creek. Right. Okay. Uh, what his problem now is someone's gonna go like, Hey, what's Cal doing? I don't know. He caught, he sent me a picture called all these fish. Where is he? Where is he?

Like he said, uh, he's on Narnia business Creek there. Okay. She didn't know that she just was blowing it up. There we go. But he just knows it's going to slip. I'm, I'm with you. And so if he goes, I can't tell you. Nothing. I would say, I guess what's the problem with that?

So this would be my thought. This would be my thought on that is one, of course, it's good to know that it's not intentional from this other person to their they're only calling because they care they're probably calling to create conversation is my guess that they're just generally wanting to know where you are I think if you come at it from I'm safe over in the most general area that you can be without telling them where exactly you are is probably your best bet. Because that sounds like the reason they're

asking is not really to know the information that could slip of getting out. This is where we're having this wonderful honey hole. It's that she's just asking because she probably just is making conversation, wants to know you're safe. But.

It doesn't solve this problem. But the coworkers. You're tense. The coworkers. Are not. the coworkers of, okay. Our, our coworkers here, they're mining for information. Yeah. Who are coworkers here in this scenario? Are these people you're working with or it's people she's working with?

But let's say it's me. I'm like, Hey, where'd you get that big old buck? And you couldn't, he can't tell you. Right. Steve would be like, boy, it looks like Cal had a pretty good weekend. Yeah. Where was that? Yeah.

Where, where, where was he? Right. Okay. So then, um, cause there's this totally other scenario, like a fishing scenario that we have in common. Um, Steve is gracious enough to lend out his boat from time to time. Um, we're fishing a lot of the same spots.

And in that scenario, I'm like, Hey, this is what happened. This is where I was. And this is what I was using. Cause it was my damn boat. Yeah. If I said, if I said, where did you take my boat? Yeah, that'd be weird. Like you said, I can't tell.

He's going to throw like a tracker in it you know. Let's see you a different one. No no but what I would end it with is one it's it's light-hearted right so I would come up with some kind of phrase that's really more of a humorous joke for you whether it's like I just went down to Mystery City or whatever it was. If you're making it a joke that way it's not her taking it like it's serious. So that's kind of like a code. When I tell you it's here it's because I'm telling you because I can't let anybody know. It's not that I don't want you to know. I just can't. We've built that joke with our kids where I'll joke with my kids like tell them it's where Nunya Creek flows into business. There we go. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of the times humor

just adding in a little bit of a joke. Like if I need to, you know, like a grandparent. So this is the first time I go into my grandparents' house. And I remember asking my grandmother, you know, my meemaw, I said, where's Papaw? And she said, ah, he's in his office. And he was in the bathroom. So it was just a way of like when company was around, not letting them know where, where he was. And so, or somebody says, where'd you get that guy? It just fell off the back of a truck is what we would typically say. If I don't want to express in some ways, so find some kind of metaphor

that is also co- This also implies that you, I see you have a wedding ring, right? Yeah. That your brand of humor must not wear off over time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As it does in my house. That's funny. That's funny.

You searched for your informant, who disappeared without a trace. You knew there were witnesses, but lips were sealed. You swept the city, driving closer to the truth, while curled up on the couch with your cat. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover heart-pounding thrillers on Audible. Okay, here's one. All right. You have a buddy. Okay. You're a duck hunter. I'll put it in. So yeah, you have a buddy who, um, is learning to call, learning to duck call. They're terrible.

You feel that this calling they're doing and they, they insist on calling a lot. Yeah. And it's just, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to you. Mm-hmm. They're trying to learn. Yeah. But it's not working right now. Right. How do you, how do you, how do you, what do you say? How do you approach that?

Yeah. So I would, I would, it's funny because I've probably been that other kid. Sure. I learned how to start doing duck calls. Um, I would begin with this phrase, I'm telling you this because like a lot of time we're not sure. Oh, you use that? Yeah.

Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because a lot of times you don't know. My hackles are up already. Yeah. I'm telling you it's because, I'm telling you it's because I love you. I'm telling you it's because you're my best friend. I'm telling you because, um, I, telling you it's because I love you. I'm telling you it's because you're my best friend. I'm telling you because I know you're really excited

about this game call. Like whatever it is, whatever it is, a lot of the times people just don't know why you're telling them things. You start talking and then you- Did you say like, I'm telling you this because we're here to kill ducks and if you keep calling, we're not gonna kill.

Like that's a, you know what I mean? Yeah, even if it's a we thing, I'm telling you this because we're here to kill the most amount of ducks we can. What you're doing, it's probably not the best strategy right now. Like- Oh, just come flat out. Yeah, yeah. When you're super indirect,

I feel it's also like, if it's a hunting buddy, this is the person who we speak very direct. I mean, if it's me and another guy, it's a direct conversation is usually not that much of a struggle for two dudes who have just become really close. Because when you have a hunting buddy, I mean, you can do just about, you talk about everything when you're in the blind or in the stand. So conversation happens. So it's, I wouldn't skirt around it at all. But when you say I'm telling you this because a lot of the times it's, I wouldn't skirt around it at all. But when you say I'm telling you this, because a lot of the times it's,

it's the work is for you. Um, I guess it works both ways. It's I'm one, I'm talking about the goal of what I'm wanting to say. Cause most people wait until they're talking to figure out what they actually want to say and then at the other side, I'm telling the person why I'm telling them that, I mean, you can say X, Y, and Z, but they're not sure what the point is behind it. Yeah. I'd put it out as flat as you can. Let me complexify it.

Wonderful. There's other individuals present. Yeah. It's everybody doesn't really know each other that well. Okay. So here you are in a situation like, um, I want to show everybody a good time, which means having some success because they're going to enjoy that. At the same time, do I, do I, am I going to humiliate this guy in front of all these other people? So the, I would, I definitely wouldn't, that wouldn't be your default there. Um, I would pass it, uh, toss it, toss it up as a question to them or even saying maybe, like give them, them a choice. So even if you say something like, Hey, so maybe we, I want to, I like how you're

calling them. That's maybe wait until we're doing X, Y, and Z or let's say you want it to stop altogether and just say, Hey, I have some ideas for you on the game call. Can you, I need you to hold off for a few X, Y, and Z a few passes and we'll try later on the afternoon, maybe when they're not coming in as hard. So, I mean like. Could you be like sneaky about it, and be like, listen, you need to listen

to this guy call for a while? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Ain't nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think anytime you're also using that as like a teaching opportunity, because they're trying to get better at it I mean because I

Know I have two cousins of mine that they will They guide over in Lake Cato which is North Texas and Yeah, they'll go and sometimes while they were learning We'd be with a real guide out and duck hunting or something. And because they think that they've done a few guides, they're just as good as they are. And the real guide that we were paying is,

God, can y'all, we need y'all to knock it off. And so, you know, what I've heard them go, she's go, hey guys, I need you to hold off for a little bit. And then he just never tells them when to come back on. But you know, but that's also how, that's also how they, they learn. So everybody's been around that. So it's, I do like it. It can be really forgiving.

It just, you can't do it at a time where let's say everybody's got their schedule together, you've spent money on all of this stuff. You're here to achieve a goal. Um, so if they're hurting that goal, you need to tell them. So you, you never, you wouldn't recommend just letting it be. Like you gotta go, you, you recognize You need to tell them. So you never you wouldn't recommend just letting it be. You gotta go. You recognize the need to address it. Definitely. Yeah. Well, there's some things I would let be. But if it's just they're blowing the call and they're if they're if they're blowing the ducks,

I mean then yeah, I would definitely be saying something. Okay, who's got this one? This one's mine. This happened to me more than once and it'll often come down to who can get their stuff together fastest and start running up the trail. But you arrive at the trailhead a parking spot at the same time as a complete stranger and there's already tension in the air. How to address who's going to hunt where, especially when you've got like a specific spot already in mind that you're going to. And they're going to the same spot?

Well, it's either you race them, you get ahead of them without saying a word to get to your spot or you decide to have a conversation with them and say, who's going where? How do you get to where you're like I'm going to this spot. You shouldn't. You shouldn't. Well no no you tell the other guy they shouldn't go to that spot. Picture you had a boat launch. Okay okay okay. It's like pre it's like dock season you got a boat launch most people that launch boats in this place are going to X place. Correct. There's another guy launching right next to you. Yeah.

You're not sure where he's going. You could either be like, I'm just going to act like he's not here. And just tear ass out of there. Yeah. Or you'd be like, let's go. Yeah. So like, hey, you know, where are you headed?

Cause I'm thinking about. Yeah. I've seen it best work where you approach that person, say, Hey, you heading out? Yeah, I've gotten ready. We'll just have a little bit of BS. And then, well, I think we should make a plan on where each other are going.

So it's one of these things where it's always good to just say we, instead of, hey, where you going? And they're gonna go, I don't know if I should tell you. Yeah, because I've done it where I, approached a person and I've said, where are you thinking about going? Right. And then they'll say the spot where I was. And then I'm in a pickle, right?

If they're planning on going where I was, then I'm like, then I got to be like, okay, go ahead. Yeah. I like that. Like, Hey, what should we do here? Yeah. Whenever you can say, uh, kind of. You're acknowledging that they're, they're there.

I wouldn't just ignore them, but I think it shows a lot of maturity too. Um, just as a mature hunter to go up to the person, introduce yourself because you're getting to meet another person, be another hunter. Great. That's another good contact for you.

Um, cause they're always another set of eyes and ears on what's happening. And, uh, if you can say, Hey, I think we should, I think you okay with us making a plan on where each other are going? They uh, if you can say, Hey, I think we should, I think you okay with us making a plan on where each other are going, they're most likely going to say, yeah, or even if you recommend it, I think we should have a plan on let's make a game plan.

If that's all right with you and where we're going. And then they'll typically, well, I think about going X, Y, and Z, or they might just say, yeah, that, that sounds good. And that gives you the chance to say, I think I'm going to head off, you know, this direction going to cut east around the bend there and then just land somewhere around there. If they're going the same place, then that's a different, that's a different scenario. Depends if you're

really wanting to, it's kind of like whoever says it first. You know, whoever kind of claims that chain. And I've never wanted, I've always been like, where are you going? Rather than I'm going here. Exactly. You know what I mean? Yeah. I, I've definitely heard those kinds of people say, well, I'm going this way. I don't know where you're going. This is where I'm going.

Meaning don't even, don't even think about going that direction. And I, because I think hunters in particular as part of the, the nature of it all, we're very territorial, very dominant. Uh, it's whatever we can to mark our territory or fishing spot or whatever it is. So, you know how I got out of this most recently? What's that? Me and my kid were El Conten. We had this whole plan put together and then we get there and there's a truck parked there.

The truck's still running. There's guys in it. So I said to my kid, I said, Hey, go ask those guys what they're doing. Get the kid good. Cause I hate those conversations. Yeah. He came back with a report.

Yeah. Was it helpful? Well, they were doing exactly what they had exactly. They had a lot of work to do. Get the kid good. Because I hate those conversations. Yeah. He came back with a report. Yeah. Was it helpful? Well, they were doing exactly what they had exactly. They saw exactly what we had seen.

And they were doing the same thing. Well, not everybody can have their own scout, you know. Yeah, but had, so here's the deal. With that approach, where are you going? They said where they're going and he comes back and tells me where they're going and we just went to plan B. Had I gone up and said hey we should, since we're both here at the same time, we should make a little plan. Yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's just because I, well the way I

approached it, it was like I made it, I made it sort of binary and lost out. Right. But there's also like this like unwritten rule kind of sorta where like if you get to a trailhead and there's someone, even if they got there 30 seconds before you, it's like, well, they were here first. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. But that depends a lot on like what kind of like, yeah, what kind of trailhead, what kind of boat launch. Yeah. But it's there. It can be there. But if it's like a boat launch and there's like tons of people, it's just different rules than if it's like some weird ass bridge.

If it's 4.30 in the morning and the guy, like, you know where the gobblers are. It's like. Yeah. I just think if you, if you approach the conversation, you can put it however terms you want, but if you say, no, hey, we're both here for a good hunt this morning, let's, let's make a plan where we're

going and the, and it just opens you up for really the whole goal that's it's another relationship that you could have with this person. Cause you're going to know them and the next time you see them again, you're going to know who they are and you're meeting them really for the next time. Yeah.

That's, that's why you're meeting them. Yeah. I've got, I've got a guy that I've run into bear hunting and we ran into each other like two springs in a row. And then just over time, where I see him and I'm like, hey, how's it going? And then one time we ended up shooting an elk out there and we didn't have enough game bags with us.

And I texted the guy, he was like, oh, they got them in the basement of the hardware store. Just go down to the basement and they've got bags. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. It's funny is like, I've never met him outside of the context of two trucks on a forest service road. And most people that I encounter in that way, I

think that they're an asshole. That funny? Yeah. John Geerox, the late John Geerox line was similar. He said, there's two kinds of fishermen. There's the guys you're with and the assholes. Yeah. That's very true.

Yeah, it's very easy, us versus them. I mean, you just apply that to, you can apply that in the business context. You think of that as anything else. It's the same way. And I think there's also the kind of natural element of we're competing for the same animal. You know, the sense of who's going to be the best warrior out there.

And so it's very easy to get confrontational with people. Steve brings up a good scenario. I've told you guys this one before, but it's just like an after work, right? And I was always like very prepared. So, because I did not want to have any sort of human interaction when I got to my spot. So I'd have like my backpack fully rigged up and all I had to do is just throw my back and go. Yeah. Right. And it was just to minimize these scenarios. Yeah.

And, um, this is really, really steep country and this car pulls up guy and a kid and guy was, Hey, where are you going? I said, Oh, I'm going up on, on this ridge. And you go, Oh, well, I'm, that's where I'm like, where are my kids going? Just dropping them off. And it was just one of those things where I was like, well, if you had, Oh, well, I'm, that's where I'm like, where my kid's going. Just dropping them off. And it was just one of those things where I was like, well, if you had a plan, you probably should have said that instead of asking and B that kid might get part of the way up that thing, but there's no, no, like there's just not, wasn't in the

realm of a realistic possibility. That guy says, let me see the kid. wasn't in the realm of a realistic possibility that he was getting a bunch of it. You gotta say, let me see the kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is he at? Where is he at? And so I just left it out. I said, okay, well, I'll see him up there and if he gets something, I'll help him out.

Yeah, and that's the perfect response. That was kind of it. Yeah. Well, it's so funny because where I'm at, there's no public link. I mean, you just don't have that available. Yeah, a whole other conversation. You can tell the dad in this scenario did not find that to be the perfect response. Yeah. Well, I can imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. But that's one of the reasons why I love listening to this podcast is because you talk about the public land stuff.

Well, there are powers that be. They would prefer it that no one had a public land. Yeah, that's unreal. That's unreal to me. Spencer hit him with the mushroom question. Oh, this is like a legal one. Uh, what if I serve someone mushrooms that get them really sick? Can they sue me? Like am I, can I get in trouble?

Phil comes over for a dinner party. I serve him a delicious meal of mushrooms, but they weren't the mushroom. I thought they were. Oh, so you don't own a restaurant and you didn't. And Spencer used his words proactively to avoid a legal situation? I think they're a chanterelle, but it turns out they're a jack-o-lantern.

And then- Those type of mushrooms? Yeah, get you real poisonous, get you real sick. Could I get in trouble for that? Yeah, you could. Yeah? If they wanted to see you. Yeah.

I mean- At a private home. Yeah. for that? Yeah you could. Yeah? If they wanted to see you. Yeah I mean. At a private home. Yeah even if like let's say you somehow they were on your back porch balcony and they were leaning against a rail and that was a rail that you knew you needed to fix. But you didn't tell them and they leaned on it and just fell off and broke their neck. Oh yeah they can see you. Okay. That's why you have homeowners insurance, hopefully. So, because it's, uh, even though you're, uh, technically they have different types of people who come onto a premise and you have licensees, you have guests and invitees. Um, and it all depends on the purpose of why

you're there. So, uh, like as a, uh, here, like I come here, if I, I trip on something, I'm not coming up with any ideas. Yeah. I'll just see. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to watch out for these wires.

Yeah. Phil, are these wires okay? Yeah. They're mostly covered? Yeah. If you came there for the purpose of somebody else, yeah, you can be held liable. Now there's going to be a big difference for you. Well, let's say you can sue them.

Yes. Would you probably have be a big difference for you. Well, let's say you can sue them, yes. Would you probably have likelihood of recovery? Probably not. Also, would you ever have a friend again with this person? No. What if I gave Phil the mushrooms and he took them home and cooked them? And I'm like, oh, I think Phil that these are chanterelles,

but they were jack-o-lanterns. It depends on your knowledge. So it goes to element of knowledge. Did you have actual notice? Did you, what they would say is, um, what they would call sufficient notice, like you knew or should have known. Um, so that, that should have known will get you.

So if you knew they caused problems, then, then yeah, that could definitely get you in trouble. If you had no idea whatsoever, or let's say they were illegal to have for whatever reason, so it doesn't matter if you had notice of whether they were good or bad for you. It's kind of like giving contraband for the notice of that's, it's only intended purpose.

So one of my favorite, just because this, I know this is a little off, but one of my favorite topics to talk about. So I wrote my, in law school, you have different journals you can be on, and everybody wants to be on the law journal, which is the most, the top of the writing, where you write articles that get put into books.

And I wrote mine on negligent entrustment of a handgun, of a firearm. That was my, that was my article. Negligent entrustment. Yeah, yeah, negligent entrustment of a firearm. That was my, that was my- Negligent entrustment. Yeah, yeah, negligent entrustment of a firearm. Because you have, there's just different states. It was really to talk about just the status of the law. But tell people what, like translate that for people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so- Cause I would say like entrustment of a firearm, but like, yeah, tell people what you're talking about. Cool, so meaning that you entrusted a firearm to, let's say a 16 year old son who you knew had proclivities for violence, who had, hadn't run into the law, who played war video games all the time and they entrusted the gun to the 16 year

old and the six year old committed a shot somebody. But that happens to have cases where there was one where a guy would have a, had a firearm he kept in the office and all the women in the, in the office knew if they worked late at night, he had a gun in his desk should they need it for self-defense.

Well, one of the women was actually having an affair with that guy. And when she had an argument with her husband. Um, she used to get your book. When she had an argument with her husband, she went back to the office, grabbed that gun, went to her husband and shot him. And so it was a big legal question of, so she didn't own the gun. He did.

He left it accessible for her should he need it. But did he have the requisite for her should he need it. But did he have the requisite knowledge given that he knew that they were having marital problems. He knew that she had talked about shooting her husband. Uh, so like all this stuff, how. It's not his fault. So that's the whole thing. That's, that's the whole thing.

So whether or not, you know, know, I know more facts on the case that he was very much involved with. Hey, you can have this coffee if you want. And I mean, you can pour this coffee on him, that's fine. No, it's fine, you don't have to. Like continually pushing the gun and using it. Got it. What was the verdict?

It actually went to the appellate court. The jury said yes, that he was found liable for negligent and trust of a firearm, but the appellate court in Texas said no, it did not even recognize the cause of action. So my whole article was whether or not to recognize the cause of action. Now we recognize in Texas the cause of action for a car. If you allow your 14 year old, I give my keys or I make my keys accessible

for my 14 year old and so you can use the truck if you need it and he goes and drives. Now he's not a competent driver, he does not have a license for it. He goes out and causes an accident. I as the parent, as the owner of that vehicle, I can be held negligent. Same thing for companies. They have an employee who they know who's caused tons of accidents and they're going to let him drive knowing that he's caused all kinds of problems. You can, it's just a theory of liability. That's all it is. But here I was making the legal comparison because I just found it so intriguing of with

a firearm, you have a license, you need to show competency to use it. Relatively, what's the utility of a car? you have a license. You need to show competency to use it. Um, relatively what's the utility of a car? It's a drive utility of a weapon is to. The shoot. So like it should, it should have be a higher threshold. So anyway, that was that came to mind of like, what's the, what's the theory of, of liability there? Several states recognize, uh, negligent and trust my firearm, but Texas does not.

Can I ask one question on this line of thinking? So I was given a shotgun and the person who gave me the shotgun had the barrels checked to just make sure it was still a good shot, old side by side. And the, probably the second day that I used it, it was hunting with, with a friend of mine and we finally got into some birds, shot the gun, gunshot great. And I went to reload the shotgun. I had, you know, you always maintain good control your barrels and I

I'm looking at I mean, I just remember this so clearly because every time crazy stuff happens. It's scary Right, so I'm looking at him and I closed the gun and BAM. Yeah right, right and so I'm like Okay, I must have had my finger on the trigger. And my friend's like, Jesus, that was stupid. What are you doing? I'm like, well, wait a minute.

Am I stupid? Right? Right. Right. So I pulled the shells out, put new shells in. I'm like, fingers clear the trigger. Close. Bam!

Oh my. Right. I guess the hurting your your knuckles yeah so yeah took took the gun to a gunsmith and yeah there you go inside the action you know it was just an old gun that had been sitting in a Massachusetts basement for a long time and then to be did that dude have reason to believe? Right, no. No, that wouldn't have passed. That's not negligent entrustment of a firearm?

No, no, I mean, that's not at all, like I am very much a proponent of, just because you hand a child a BB gun, a Pelican, or whatever it is, and all of a sudden, you should be liable for everything they do with it. Absolutely not. I'm saying there's a level of knowledge. It's really just more for the legal theory discussion of it,

of how much sufficient knowledge do you have to have. So you see this come into play, of course, with mass shootings. There's a student who came to school with something, and so the parents just had an AK-47 in the bedroom right there, or whatever it is. That's the thing you're seeing lately, those prosecuting parents. Correct. Yeah.

It's saying you should know better to properly store your gun or keep it away from people who cannot, who should not be allowed to use it. And you see this a lot with the children that truly have problems, but in the case I was talking about, the guy who owned the gun was much more pushing it onto her than, than what evidence could come out, uh, for that appellate court. But anyway, yeah, I just find it so, um, intriguing that if you knew, given a gun

to somebody that they're likely to cause harm to a person, not just because they're, they're new, they're kid, like kid. Like competency is just one element. It's also the knowledge. So the state of Texas in, well, the appellate court said, no, you have to have knowledge that they will use the gun to harm somebody. So in the case of the husband and wife, then the husband should have had the knowledge that she would use the gun to kill her husband. And that was the, that was the gray area, but that just goes to the negligent trustee. Like like as you said do you happen to have anything I can use to kill my husband

exactly he said yeah this pistol right you would have been in trouble for that yeah so it just goes to the level of knowledge so Pellicourt said no he didn't have sufficient knowledge the fact showed he probably knew that could something I knew she didn't I knew they had marital problems but I didn't know she's gonna actually kill the guy that was kind of how that works but that's what made me when you're talking about the mushrooms of you know what if you give it to somebody else does that create a chain of liability and there's sometimes that yeah when you entrust something with that's what they call

entrusting a chattel is the legal term for it then you can you can in certain situations be liable for it then you can you can in certain situations be liable for it pretty well you searched for your informant who disappeared without a trace you knew there were witnesses but lips were sealed you swept the city driving closer to the truth. While curled up on the couch with your cat, there's more to imagine when you listen, discover heart pounding thrillers on audible.

Spencer's put another one down that I, that I want him to jump to, which asking, go ahead, the permission, permissions. Permissions, remember we used to do that as a, fit around the roof. Yeah. I have a question specifically about like preparing for a hard conversation. I ask a lot of folks for hunting permission. This year I'm trying to hunt a new state.

And so I identified six landowners, 16 landowners I wanted to ask permission for. Um, and I called 16 of them a couple of Saturdays ago and asked for permission. The current way I treat that, uh, because I like sort of dread it. It's a hard conversation. I'm a stranger.

I'm asking them for like one of the greatest favors they could possibly do for me. Hello, sir. My name is Spencer Newhart. Yeah, that's how it goes. How, how could you? You send your kids up. Question one. Go talk to that guy.

How can you best prepare for a conversation like that? Because the way I currently treat it is I sort of spring it on myself. I like surprise myself almost. I'm like, I can't think about this too much. Like, okay, I'm going to do this. It's 11 AM Saturday morning. This is just when I'm gonna do it now. And so I call all 16 of these landowners

and I rip off the bandaid. Usually I get like partway into it and it's not so bad then. And I've like, one thing I've done is I tell myself the worst thing they can do is they say no. Sure. And then one time I went up to a rancher's door and I knocked on his door to ask for shed hunting permission

his dog bit me. And I had to go, I was way out of date on my rabies shot So I go get a red so actually the worst thing that could happen to me is I get bit by a dog But you can suit him and got the whole ranch Talk about preparing for a hard conversation Yeah asking for hunting permission. Yeah. So what I teach, um, for the more difficult conversations is using what I call frame for them. And so there's a three parts to it. One is you tell someone what you want to talk about to you, tell them how you

want to walk away from in the conversation and three, you get the buy-in into that frame. I see this a lot in the business context, of course, where somebody needs to correct a decision. So let's put it in context of maybe y'all had a business meeting here and you need to correct something that somebody's done. So let's say you're gonna have a difficult conversation with Corinne.

It could be as simple as, you know, hey Corinne, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting and I wanna walk away with it, with the understanding that we can't talk about that. Again, sound good. And then right there, you know exactly what we're talking about, exactly what the walk away is. And then you're getting to their buy-in.

Now you don't have to worry about, hey, you remember that meeting that we had? You've had the whole conversation already. Yeah, exactly. So now there's not the anxiety because you're only thinking of what, when you're in those situations, you're only thinking about what you need to say. You need to be thinking what's going to help is you think of what they're going to be thinking about because they're going to be thinking, what, what do you,

what's going on here? Um, there's new element. What's going on is it's there. The fight or flight is going to kick in of, you know know how should I handle this new threat what do you want get to the point like that kind of stuff yeah it's like when you're there at the door yeah beautiful ranch you got here yeah yeah like you're so gorgeous yeah new truck yeah yeah yeah there you go and the guys like who are you yeah yeah going on am I up to date on my taxes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's the what's that Oh

brother route though he's shooting the the tax man yeah the kids in the taxi he's like good boy yeah yeah yeah so I love frames and they can be used also in the productive sense so let's let's you need, you want to talk to somebody for later today. You might say, hey, I need to talk to you about the budget for tomorrow's meeting. I'm going to walk away with us being on the same page. Does that work? And then right there, you just like, you know, instead of like, hey, you got five minutes and then you're going to lead. And then what typically happens is you go, hey, so I'm thinking, and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this,

and then you just start kind of wandering, and then the other person is going, where is this going, what's the point? And then we have the problem, you see this a lot in relationships, you have the tendency to wanna cut in, oh, you want me to do this, and like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait,

no, that's not it, I need, because they don't know how to land the plane, so they just kind of talk in circles. So you could put this in the context of needing permission. So if it's, hey, I'd like to talk to you about your ranch and I want to walk away with getting your permission on being able to hunt here, that all right? Like just having that conversation,

putting it in a one, two, three framework. Now you're gonna have to tailor it for whatever is most comfortable for you, but it's a great way of letting them know at the outset of what's the ask, because I find that a lot of your property owners, really anybody, they just want to say get to the point. They want as little time as possible with you. And so you have a very small window to like just say, I like to talk with you about X and I would want, like I can say maybe, and I want to walk away with the feeling or I want to, that's more in the business sense for you,

is I want to walk away, ideally, I want to talk with you to walk away with this permission of doing X, Y, and Z. Like I'm telling you right now, the goal for the conversation, what's the finish line for that conversation? Because a lot of people will, they start talking and they just, they don't know where they want to land. So saying that upfront might help.

Yeah. A few more notes on that. I find that occasionally I've gotten permission because that person was just in a really good mood when I happened to talk to them. Or on the contrary, like they just got done yelling at their naughty 14 year old and they're in a really good mood when I happened to talk to them or on the contrary, like they just got done yelling at their naughty 14 year old and they're in a bad mood. Yeah.

When I come ask them for this giant favor, how can I like butter them up or get them in a good mood at the offset? So it's, you know, increases my chances by 2% without them thinking you're schmuck. Yeah. Yeah. Or assuming too much. Yeah. Oh, I'm in a bad mood.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm in a bad mood. Yeah He's tried, you know being like, you know three lawyers walk into a bar Talk to you about your warranty or extended warranty. Yeah. Yeah, exactly let me tell you so I was this is probably about seven months ago or so and My wife and I were at target, really, she was at Target. I was just there. And so- I know the feeling. We were watching her be at Target.

Yeah, I was watching her at Target. And while she's at checkout, I really wanted, I wanted some ice cream while I was at Target. I was like, look, if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna get myself some ice cream. So I went down and got like one of those little bitty small ice creams. They don't have any spoons. I don't know what to do about it. So I'm thinking and there's a Starbucks inside this Target. And so I go up,

I don't want anything at Starbucks and they don't have just spoons available. And so I, the lady did not look like she was in a good mood. And so I, my car, here we go. Let's see what we can do. I'll walk in. I say, I need a miracle. You think you can perform a miracle? And she goes, she immediately brightened. She goes, I just might. I said, I got this ice cream, I don't got a spoon. And without me even asking, she goes, well, I got a spoon you can have.

And went, got it and brought it out right there. And I said, well, you can tell everybody you performed a miracle today. And she, I mean, we just got to have that. So it's that element of humor, that levity in it, that even if you were to say, knock on the door and say, I need a miracle from you. Uh, or I mean, even if it's something that's very lighthearted, um, they, people tend to open up,

uh, just to have a little bit of fun and humor, as long as the compliments genuine. Um, because a lot of the times compliments from your, someone you're asking something for, they're like, what do you need? What do you want? Oh, yeah. That's what I was joking about. The beautiful, that's a joke. It's like beautiful ranch you got here. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, exactly. What the hell is this guy doing in my door? There's going to be some rancher somewhere in Eastern Montana. It's like, where'd you get that miracle? I need a miracle wine. I've heard

that 20 times this season. Exactly. Oh yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, yeah. With Spencer's scenario, when would be the time to bring up like offering to do work in exchange? Like, cause if you're gonna throw it right out there that you're looking for permission, when would you say, I'd be willing to- Oh, so I would put that right in the frame. Yeah.

So I would say something along the lines of, once you say hello, whatever um, I like to talk with you about your your your beautiful ranch here and I ideally I love to walk away with A relationship where I work on this property for you in exchange for permission for me to be able to do some hunting Mmm that work and I mean like that is out of the gate right out of the gate rather than and it's not wasting their time They're not gonna get anxious over like who says stranger at my door Then you're saying it right up front rather than them going, you know, what do you need and you're going? I mean, I'll work In exchange I'll do it

Might have said no you'd be but I'll yeah and the thing is they're already thinking no I mean right out of the gate before you they... And the thing is, they're already thinking no. I mean, right out of the gate, before they even answer, open the door, they're thinking no. I mean, that's just, they're probably not even gonna wanna come to the door. I mean, how many people even, when somebody knocks on somebody's door now, it's like,

what is this maniac doing here? Like nobody wants to be at somebody's house anymore. Someone knocked on our door last night, I said to my kid, I said, Who in the world? I said, peek around the corner. Is it a man or a woman? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. People will just say no. So my wife gets up and goes sort of. Yeah. That's awesome. I know the dude, like one of those dudes tried to do solar.

Oh yeah. We got that the other night too. All of our dogs started barking we're like I'm gonna look at the video camera Yeah, I know I don't like to send them out. I'm like take not me. I just don't I run the door open I'm like come on in When all the dogs start barking because then they feel like they have to apologize right out of the gate sure and you have the upper hand Can I want to hit you with one that I know you're like the expert but I want to hit you on one I just stumbled into. Contractors, yeah, something's wrong with your, you gotta call a plumber, right? You know what I started doing? It's just extremely effective. A guy, he calls a plumber. A lot of guys are gonna

want to like puff up a little bit. Yeah, what I've started doing and it works so good Is to be like man when it comes to electrical. I'm a moron. Yeah. Yeah Like I look in that mechanical room dude. All I see is like wires and pipes, right? They're like, oh, let's get in there and take a look, you know, I Imagine a lot of guys like well, you know, I tried X and Z and you know, you know, I could probably figure it out. Right. You know, I'm a little busy. Yeah.

I'm like, man, I look under that thing, dude, I have no idea what I'm looking at. Yeah. That's incredibly effective. Oh my God. Because, because it works. And we took the reason why it's because if you instantly become the student and they become the teacher and people love to teach, people love to share their knowledge, I'm also not lying.

Yeah, me either. We have in-floor heating. When I look at my mechanical grill, I don't know what I'm looking at. Nate Barghatsi, who I'm a huge fan of, has this bit about when people is like his, his wife is the one who knows all the man knowledge. Let's put it like, he knows, knows everything.

And so she called somebody to fix a water heater and he opens up and he's like, ha. And the guy's like, I'm here to do your water heater. And he's like, yeah, they're in there, you know, somewhere like he has no idea where it is. And so he's always like, I've known nothing about it. And so he's always like, oh yeah, that's, I agree. That's probably, we probably do need a new one. Just replace the whole thing. Yeah. Like, yeah. Do you have something to sell? Like it's fantastic. But yeah, that's an excellent strategy

because there's no battle of the ego because we have such a feeling of, to have any kind of credibility, I have to feel like, you know, well, I did this and I tried that and I did this and I tried that. Cause dudes feel emasculated. Absolutely. But I just emasculate myself.

And that's genius. It's genius to be able to tried that. Cause dudes feel emasculated. Absolutely. But I just emasculate myself. And that's genius. It's genius to be able to do that. And I mean, the thing is, I think wives pick up on this of like, it takes a really smart guy to be that dumb kind of thing where it's like, no, you're just trying to get out of it. Yeah, like I don't know how to fold these clothes. Yeah, you do.

Like you're just not kind of, I'm not very good at loading the dishwasher. Yeah, you are. Like you're just not kind of, I'm not very good at loading the dishwasher. Yeah, you are. You're cool. Let's teach you. My wife has described it as weaponized incompetence. There we go. She came up with that term,

but she's learned about it somewhere. I love that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and I want to also pick up on something too of the how do you kind of break the mold with somebody that when you're first trying to ask something from them or really anytime. And this could be for any kind of- What you mean the mold being no?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is you say exactly what they're thinking in the reverse way. I'm going to explain it. So let's say if I was going to tell you something and I said, I don't mean this disrespectfully and I say something, how are you going to take it? You're probably going to- The same way when someone says, I don't mean this disrespectfully. And I say something, how are you gonna take it? You're probably gonna take it. The same way when someone says, I don't wanna get political. Exactly.

And I'm like, please don't. Yeah, exactly. Because you're about to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So it's that, it's any time you say, look. It's like, okay, then stop talking.

Yeah, then don't, then don't. Yeah, when somebody says, I don't mean to be rude. And then they say the rudest thing you've ever heard or whatever it is, I don't mean this to be. I don't wanna be racist. Exactly, exactly. And then they say the most racist thing. Yeah, exactly.

So instead, what you do is you flip it. So in other words, when you're coming up to that person, maybe instead of going, look, I don't wanna waste your time. What are they thinking? You're wasting my time. Yeah, yeah. Instead- You're selling them something. Exactly.

Now, instead you say it for them. Instead of saying it's not that case when they both know it is, cause they're gonna, people naturally wanna say the reverse of what you're thinking. So instead say, you probably think I'm wasting your time and then say it. Oh, I don't like this Yeah, well, that's not permission and I am well, I am wasting your what you could say that of let's say

Thanks for giving me some of your time or sorry that's fine you Yeah, don't because then you're just telling you're confirming Okay, I would rather you say you probably think I or sorry to bother you. That's fine. Yeah, I don't because then you're just telling, you're confirming, I would rather you say, you probably think I'm here to bother you. Okay, and then they'll actually listen. Because if you say, I'm sorry to bother you, it's just the opposite. Or if it's, let's say you and I are in a conversation

and you don't really trust me. Or you're already, I can just tell what I'm doing as I'm labeling what you're not gonna like about me. So it may not be leading with that, but it could be something like, look, I know you probably don't trust me, and then you're gonna think the opposite rather than me saying,

I need you to trust me here. You're automatically gonna go, no, I don't trust anything that you say. So when you have the, people love to think the opposite. So if I say, you can't do that, what's the first thing you think of? Yeah, I can.

So we have this, this really quick switch of thinking the opposite of whatever you say. So if you say it as if on their behalf, uh, now you probably think, um, you most likely think X, Y, and Z their head goes, no, I don't. You think the opposite of it. It's a, it's a really great technique that I, that I like. What's the movie where there's a, it's a really great technique that I, that I like. What's the movie where there's a, is it Mandalorian or something?

There's like a dangerous seeming person and there's like a point in the movie where they say to a person, you can stay here and die or come with me and live. All right. I hope it's a Mandalorian. I love that show. And it's like, uh, you know, and it's sort of presented in a way where the person's like, I'll go with you Like against all visual yeah, I mean there's like a like a surprising way of yeah I don't know what that is as a rhetorical strategy. You're just you're narrowing the choices So whenever you can like give them a second threat. Oh, you just you're I mean

I think the actual line is I can take you in warm or I can take you in cold. Oh, that's it. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. That's what it is.

This is the way. You can take you in warm or take you in cold. That's so good. What a great line. You're like, yeah, I'll go warm. Yeah, I'll go warm. So anytime you, you, you can give people choices in conversation, they, they love it.

It's like I say this in the book, when you talk about everything, you talk about nothing. So when you put a frame around the conversation, you actually get very detailed. Instead of coming in and saying, all right, we got a lot to talk about today. Nobody ever feels like you leave the conversation productive, but if you can eliminate to just one thing,

you're gonna be a whole lot better. But yeah, that's what comes to mind for me. Can you talk about having a hard conversation in person versus over the phone? I find that if I'm looking for permissions, it takes more, like more courage for me to go up to somebody's front door and talk to them than call them over the phone.

But the outcome is usually better in person. It's harder for them to tell me no, when I'm standing in front of them. With the little child. Yeah. Well, I don't have one of those. Yeah. You can borrow one of mine anytime. Uh huh.

I got one on crutches right now. Oh, perfect. You bring that kid, you're not getting a lot of permission. Just get a fake cast. Hop up there in them crutches. Oliver twisted. Do you have a wheelchair for him too? Yeah, exactly. I don't want to be manip cast. Yeah, but can't hobble up there in them crutches and we're twisted. Oliver twisted. Do you have a wheelchair for him too? Yeah, exactly.

I don't want to be manipulative. Yeah. Can you talk about that? You're probably thinking that I'm manipulating you with this small child in crutches. But he legit has a user, it's my buddy's kid. And he's dying to talk to you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, well going to them, always in person is always much better. There's that element of People have a harder time saying no when you're in person than over the phone because you're talking to him same reason why people and you Too comments will say anything and they've never say in front of you. Yeah, it's a whole I mean, it's just a whole different level of credibility and humanity to it and Whenever they can see how you look right as you can go

Okay, this person's a genuine person or this person doesn't look trustworthy. Maybe it's just how you look, right? And you can go, okay, this person's a genuine person or this person doesn't look trustworthy. Maybe it's just how you're dressed. Maybe it's how you're carrying yourself. Maybe it's how you're smiling. Maybe it's, I mean, they just go, I just, I don't know, something about you I just like. And so that element always gets you far

because they're already, while you're talking, they are calculating everything about, from your eyes to how you're standing, is this a person I can trust? And so we, I mean, I'd see that with juries. I mean, jurors have a, we are humans. We have a sixth sense about us knowing what someone's genuine or not.

Like the worst thing a witness can do on the stand is try and fake sympathy. If they're trying to like drum up tears. I mean, the jury will just crucify them. A jury will, oh yeah, you'll tank your case quickly. If somebody, if they feel like somebody's faking it, you're done, you're done. Because they go, ah, this person's a liar.

I don't like anything about this person. I feel like that's gotta be good to see. Gotta make you feel good about humanity. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're getting permissions, don't go up and start crying right off the bat. Exactly, right, yeah, yeah, you know what? Yeah when you get permissions, don't go up and start crying right off the bat. Exactly, right, yeah, yeah. You know what?

Yeah, this reminds me of a time I broke my leg. I just got nowhere to hide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're, I also would think as the landowner, when somebody has the guts to come all that way, drive all that way and come to you face to face, so they would say, you know, I don't care if it's a man or woman, but if that's the term man to man or whatever it is, you

know, you come up and talk to me and that's absolutely. So I did this once, it wasn't hunting, but I needed this location for something with a trial and this guy owned the property. I talked to him on the phone. He said, no, immediate no, no, no But I waited a week Went to his house knocked on his door. I wasn't wearing a suit Just wore regular clothes and told him what I was there for and he goes. Yes, that's fine. You can do that

I mean and nothing really changed Yeah, no, no, I didn't say that I was a person who called, but he, I didn't lead with that, but he did ask, are you the one that called? And I said, yeah, I am, but I want to meet you in person. And so that just changed the dynamic when there's something about a handshake, there's something about, you know, looking somebody in the eye where that sends

a different frequency, a different signal of trustworthiness in the conversation. It's easy to say no to a telemarketer or whoever, or just not answer the phone. You searched for your informant who disappeared without a trace. You knew there were witnesses, but lips were sealed. You swept the city, driving closer to the truth while curled

up on the couch with your cat. There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover heart-pounding thrillers on Audible. Randall, can you hit him with two of yours, I feel like are on the same wavelength. I like them. Um, this is fun by the way. This is, oh, you have a hunting trip planned. I like this one. And a friend asked to join you.

You don't want them to come either because you want to go alone. You think they'll ruin the experience or you don't think they'll enjoy the experience. How do you tell them that they can't join you without jeopardizing the relationship? That's a great question. And this kind of speaks a little bit to the compliment insult sandwich a little bit, which I'm looking forward to discussing.

It's this, so where I've seen it gone bad is people lead with the, oh man, you know, I'd love to, oh, you know, you're my best friend. Oh, you know, I loved, and they just, they shower the compliment, they shower the fluff. And then they end it with the word, but. That's what happens. I mean, in relationships, I love you.

Hey, I love you, but you're driving me crazy. Or, you know, you have a difficult conversation and you say, yeah, you're fantastic. How's everything going? Is good. Listen, and then everything tanks. Like that's how it happens is you have that conversation. Hey, how's it going?

You good? Family's good? So listen, and then all of a sudden, you know, the whole tenor of the conversation changes. Um, and so same with the, but you're going to break up with somebody. It's I, you're so great. You know, I've loved everything we've done together, but, and then they just know it's,

it's tank. What, what the word, but does is delete everything in front of it, because it just shows that you didn't really care. Sure. It just has a way of just backspace, backspace, backspace. Um, so what I would recommend for this friend

instead of going, Oh man, you know, I'd love for you to come, but instead of that, I would, I'd tell people to flip it, start with the no. Now I wouldn't just leave with no period for your friend is it's, it's your buddy. It's, it's your pal. I, I like to say things when I'm really uncomfortable about it. Say, I made a promise to myself because then, then they can't ever disagree with it.

They can't like argue with it. If you say, look, I promised myself, I was going to do a solo hunting trip this year. I'd love for you to come on the next one. I'd love for you to come in. Uh, it's just not going to work out this time around. Simple as that. It's going to work instead of, Oh man, you know, I, I love to, for you to come, but I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go by myself on this one.

Thanks. Um, that's going to feel a little bit less instead of, I say this, um, it's the same kind of technique when I say you need to, if it's you who needs to turn down an invitation, so let's flip it. If you need to turn down an invitation so let's flip it if you need to turn down an invitation we typically saw more of that just please Randall come with me right I would love to yeah you came with me yeah you don't want to go but he he doesn't want to go instead of the man I'd love to you know I you know I would, but I can't make it. What happens is we have the tendency to over explain.

I love to, but I got the dog, and I got a tree that's growing in the yard. We have to make up the dumbest things that we got. Anything and everything ends up being like a- The kids, I want it. I'm busy in life and I got, you have three tariffs. Plus my ankles, they're bugging me.

It's this economy, you know, as soon as, and there's that tendency, you say so much that the other person just goes, look, if you just didn't want to come, just tell me. You know, it becomes disingenuous in a sense. So what I teach is you start with the no, and then you have, then you, instead of the gratitude, the no, you begin with the no, then end with the gratitude.

So instead of the thank you, but I can't, or thank you so much, I'm not going to do it, lead with the no. I can't make it, I hope it's a wonderful time. I've heard a whole lot of good things about it. Let me know how it goes. Or, um, I can't make it this go around. I'd love to thank you so much for inviting me. Like that's how it usually goes. We'll say, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me, but I can't make it. Instead say, I can't make it.

Thank you so much for thinking of me and inviting me. It means a lot. I hope it's a great time. Like if you can, same thing, like if it's a great time. Like if you can, the same thing, like if there's a new coffee shop, if you invited me to go with coffee and I couldn't make it and say, no, I'd love to, but I can't.

It would be as simple as beginning. So let's put it in a framework. Begin with the no, next is gratitude, three is if you can, sprinkle in some kindness. So that is, I can't make it today. Thank you so much for inviting me. I hope it's a great time. Or I heard it's a great place. Or I hope you shoot them straight. Whatever it is, that's a much better way to handle it. Gotcha. Yeah. My buddy, he used to give breaking up advice on how to break up with people. Oh. I've been out of that game for a long, long time.

But was he just like pain handling this on the street? Or like, what is he just- I used to work for my buddy Ronnie. So he would tell the guy, so Ronnie, like a lot of guys would work for Ronnie at the age when we worked for Ronnie was when you were, you know, 18, 19, 20, whatever. And so he would get irritated with these guys that would be in these relationships

and they're together, broke up together, broke up. So he had like this school of thought on breakups. He didn't like, he would advise when you break up with someone, you can never give the idea that there's something they could do to improve things. Right. It's just not working out. That's so true. We just don't.

Right. So true. Ronnie would say it's this. He would, he would advise you to go say, this has nothing to do with you. This is just entirely me. Um, we're done. Okay. Yeah.

Do you like that? That was what he advised. Cause he's like anytime you go, well, it's just, I feel, well, it's, it's, you know, you're creating a thing like, well, maybe if I change, yes, give me hope to relate. Yeah. And it's just like, it really, it really has nothing to do with you. Yeah. This is my, it's just me. I like, we're done. Yeah. So this is the category I put this in on having a sensitive conversation. It's a little bit different because most of the time in sensitive conversations,

let's say you need to fire somebody, let them go. Let's say you need to break up. I mean, that's essentially what that is. We have the tendency to begin with the small talk of let's say you need to let somebody go. They sit down in your office and you go, so how are you doing? Everything good? How's your mom? How's y'all? of let's say you need to let somebody go, they sit down in your office and you go, so how you doing?

Everything good? How's your mom? I saw y'all went fishing the other day, did anything good? Where exactly were you fishing? Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you turn it, then you go, so listen, and they know, okay, it's the worst,

something's coming, this is terrible, the worst thing ever. Or the same thing with the, if you're having a conversation with your girlfriend and you go, I've really enjoyed being together. All of a sudden you're talking to past tense, right? All of a sudden you're in past tense and they're like,

oh, what's happening? Hey, I think you're so great, you know, I've really loved what, and they're just waiting for it the whole entire time. And it's not- I've really enjoyed being together. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it's like, it's not you, it really enjoyed being together. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it's like, it's not you, it's me.

You remember that time. Yeah, yeah. That we were together? Yeah, I remember that. That would give you a sinking feeling. I'll always look back fondly on this. And my wife was like, you know, I've enjoyed our time together,

but no reason to think we're not gonna continue though, Chris. Exactly, you know, whenever you say like, I think the world of you, like that kind of stuff, that kind of stuff is like, they know, whenever you say like, you know, I think the world of you, like that kind of stuff, that kind of stuff is like they know something is coming. Instead of using that fluff language, you tell them this is going to be difficult and you can apply this for anything. So instead of the fluff, you begin with something that sounds like this is going to be a hard conversation. Or it can be as simple as this is going to be a hard conversation or it can be as simple as this is going to be a difficult conversation or you're going to say you're not going to like what I have

to say. What about the one like your old man used to give you like this is going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt me. Yeah, yeah, that oh yeah it's always a lie, you know it's always a lie, but if they if even if they you said something like you're not going to like what I have to say or this is going to come as a surprise to you, or this isn't gonna be fun to discuss, whatever that is, that is what you're doing is preparing them, like readying them for that conversation.

Because if I sat you down and we're gonna have a talk, and I said, Corinne, you're not gonna like what I have to say. And you're gonna kinda like ready I have to say. And you're gonna kind of, you're gonna kind of, you're gonna kind of like ready yourself to be like, okay, like that's how your, your brain first is gonna say, okay. And then you're gonna deliver the pitch. I don't like your shoes.

Yeah, yeah, whatever it is. So, but that's how it would say, so let's say we needed to break up or something. It'd say, look, Corinne, this is gonna, or I could put it on me. I'm having a hard time, I would put it as, I don't like this conversation, or I've been really dreading this conversation.

Something as simple as that, like showing a little bit of vulnerability of I've really been dreading this conversation we're about to have, or I'm not gonna like this conversation, whatever that is. And then the next thing out of your mouth is, we need to, it's time we need to break up. Blah, blah, blah.

Or let's say you need to let them go. Now I just need some time. We just need to take some time. Slow things down. Yeah, that kind of stuff is, that can be painful. So instead of the, let's say if I need to fire you, you come in and say, this might come as a shock to you. I need to let you go.

You've been a fantastic, now I'm giving the compliments. Just hit them right in the nuts. Yeah, yeah. Now, but see, now I'm giving the compliment. Like now I'm giving the compliment of you've been a great part of the team, loved having you. I'm looking forward to it.

After that. Yes, now you're kind of like trying to show, because now it's genuine. Now it's genuine instead of the hand. Yeah. Instead of you being nervous, instead of you being nervous, instead of you saying you're such a great part of the team, you know, we really, and now they're thinking, where's this

going? Where's this going? When you lead with the, exactly, exactly. But everybody's always waiting for the butt. They're waiting for the down. They're always for the down. They're always thinking the worst. So if you lead with the, this is going to be a

difficult conversation. I need to let you go. You've been an awesome part of the team and I'm, I look forward to where you go in your career. It's just, it's just not going to be here. I mean, that kind of thing is way more credibility. I like that. Or even if you lead with like, yeah.

And I look forward to helping you, you know, move forward and wherever you're gonna be in your career. If you feel like this is somebody you really enjoyed and you really do wish the best for them, because then they'll start switching the conversation to where they go next, what happens next, rather than complaining about the present and saying, what's wrong with me?

What could I have done better? You're saying the decision's been done. And even if I say, no, this is a me decision. So that's, um, that's kind of like the way Ronnie was saying it's Ronnie, right? Of saying the, uh, this is, this is, uh, this is a me thing. I wish he could clean it up. He could have said, can probably name somebody a new dude here right now that doesn't subscribe to your Instagram channel. Yeah. So he could have finessed that a little.

What I'm picking up about what you're talking about, and I don't know if you frame it this way in your book, but a lot of it is people think of conversations a lot of times where they're living and they're trying to jump in the other person's head. Yeah. But a lot of times where they're living and they're trying to jump in the other person's head Yeah, but a lot of what you're saying would kind of it almost makes it easier for the deliverer Yes, like I could picture if you're dreading. Mm-hmm firing somebody, right? Right. It's terrible. Like I've had it's the worst. It's terrible Yeah, if you just came and then you're doing the well, how's this? How's that? It's all for you. Yeah, if you just said like, I have some bad news to deliver to you. Yeah.

All of a sudden you're probably going, whew, dude, I did it. Exactly. And then everything else becomes downhill easier because what you're doing when you're trying to lead with, before you, because the whole conversation is bad news and you're just putting a label on the whole thing. So if I were to sit down and you sit down and go,

I got bad news. Like my team, I have a very small team, but if anything's going on, what they do with me that I've asked for, they say, you're not gonna like what I'm about to say. That's what they say. So I'll pick up the phone and the first thing they'll say is, Jefferson you're not gonna like what I have to say. Or they'll say, you're not gonna like this. That's what they'll do. They'll say, you're not gonna like this. That's what they'll do. They'll say you're not gonna like this and I'll always go, okay, I'm ready. And whatever I'm thinking of is not as bad as what they say. I always think to the worst like possible scenarios.

So that's when they pick up the phone and say you're not gonna like this, I go, ready? Now that's typically how I handle it. But yeah, it's much kinder on the other person. So in terms of let's talk benefits, it's much kinder on the other person. So in terms of, let's talk benefits, it's much kinder on the other person because they're not getting this, where are we going with this? I'm getting anxious.

They feel the hammer being dropped. Yeah. You're, you're getting straight to the point. So a lot of the ways that clarity is, is kindness being direct can be a lot of a relief. And it's much better on you because instead of looking at this big Hill, I got to get over, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, use the front door. That's what is there for. That's kind of a lot this big hill, I got to get over. I'm, I'm, I'm, use the front door.

That's what is there for. That's kind of a lot different than the, the duck blind bad collar thing. Cause you could use it on the bad collar too. Yeah. You're not like, go ahead. Yeah, you could. Yeah, you could, you certainly could.

You may not want to do that in the blind with them while you're trying to call, but yeah. The line in that scenario I've always used is, now's not the time to practice. That's a great one. Yeah. That's a great one. Today we're here to kill stuff, not practice. I want to hit with a very quick one. It's a life or death one. Muscle control. Someone's practicing bad muscle control.

You just, right, how do you hit them? You just got to hit them, right? Oh, you use the front door on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had a trial coach in law school. He would, the whole point would be, instead of just trying to say things and hope the jury figures it out, you say use the front door, that's what it's there for.

And so it's that kind of mentality. When you're talking about life or death, when you're talking about we could really injure somebody, you be direct as you can. There's no sugar coating, there's no I really care so much about your feelings, this is we're saving lives. It's not you know I love you man. Yeah. You know I love hanging out with you. Yeah. It's great to have you here you know. Yeah. But uh yeah you know sometimes I notice your muscle aim at my forehead. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. It's currently aimed at my ankle. I don't like that either, but yeah, yeah, there's definitely some times for true conversation, but when you're out in the field like that, yeah, sometimes you just gotta, you gotta lay it out because it's, uh, it's either that or your ankle. It's kind of the Mandalorian. Who's got this one is in purple right now.

Do you ever run across trial attorneys where you're like, now's not, not the time to practice here. Go get, go get yourself a coach. Uh, um, are you talking about like in trial and courtroom with her? Um, I mean, typically not because you have like a first chair, a second chair, there's just kind of a hierarchy. Um, I, I like going to trials by myself at the table

because I don't want the jury thinking that I have like a huge team. So I will only bring one paralegal and they'll sit in the back. I don't have like a whole, and I carry my own boxes. I don't have, the others have like a paralegal, brings in like all their boxes. And they're the ones that they think

that they're like the talent. They have to sit at the table and everybody else bring them snacks and stuff anyway yeah, I Probably probably not not in the trial sense, but there are times in it let's say in a deposition they like trying to slide you questions that you think you should ask and Sometimes they're valuable, but I've had it where I've had like a very new associate where I Sometimes they're valuable, but I've had it where I've had like a very new associate where I read the first one and it was like an absolute horrible question.

Like it was, I'll say, absolutely not. I'm not going to, because I know in my head, if I ask that that's what's going to happen, he doesn't have that knowledge yet. So instead he might just pass it and without looking, I just pass it back. It's like, we'll talk about it in a break. Let me use it as a teaching moment, but I like that your head's thinking. I like that you're, you're trying to, it's like that. I like that you're trying to practice.

I like that you're trying to be part of what we're doing. Now's not the time. Mm hmm. Let's do one more. Cause it is a good one. Randall, you're, you're one about money. Oh, yes. You would like to spend or may have already spent an excessive amount

of money on a trip or piece of gear. How do you rationalize it to your partner or to a friend? Okay. Like sometimes you have like a, a stupid purchase and people are like, wow, you spent money on that or whatever. I mean, I feel like this is one of the awkward conversations that, that you run into. Now, it's like, how do you build a case for something that is valuable to you, but maybe not to other people? Or yeah, sometimes you have like a friend and you know all about them. And

all of a sudden they show up with brand new truck and you're like, God, I hope somebody died. Yeah. You can't have, you shouldn't be getting a new truck. Right. Yeah. That's like the last thing they should be doing. Yeah. If you. Or in a relationship when you pool your money and you gotta go buy something. You don't want to be bothered trying to explain why you had to buy it. I don't know, if it's a big expense and you're like springing it on them afterwards. Well, that's where we're here to ask the actual question. And to add context, we've polled our audience before, 500 listeners, asked a question. Have you ever lied to a significant other about the price of gear?

And it was over 70% of them have lied to a significant other. They probably lied on that too. They probably like 90 bucks. I've obfuscated the price of gear. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You were like massaging the truth.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll never say it was like,'ll be like I was about $200 $289 And you find like I feel like the conversation is a little different when it's a spouse or a Significant other versus just a buddy. You don't be business partner. No, I mean partner. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I was present at the the return of an item That I had no interest in Randall's no no no of

my girlfriend, okay, and And we don't pool money. Mm-hmm, but I I started laughing and I was like that's how much that I started laughing and I was like, that's how much that cost? Yeah And you know as a guy executing the exchange and he's like you didn't tell him about this? Yeah, that's hilarious My girlfriend's like, it's not his money! Yeah

You know, I mean, it was just a funny thing I mean like, so what comes to mind for me is, yeah, if you're pooling money, there's a very big difference if it just all of a sudden show up with, you know, $1,000 worth of hunting. I feel like clothes are so expensive now that you don't at least have that conversation about it. Now, to me, a lot of it is it's none of their business.

If it's a partner, a lot of it is it's none of their business. If it's a partner, I'm gonna want to have that conversation if you can beforehand, unless you're okay with having to fight about it later. I'm wondering how to set myself up for success in those types of conversations. But you love to win. Yeah, yeah.

Because you come across a hot deal. He's trying to keep the relationship together. Yeah, he's trying to keep the relationship together. Yeah. I don't want to be like. Relations together. You're trying to get what you want. Yeah. I don't want to say like, Hey, I know this is really stupid. Okay.

But there's this guy. You see how he did that? You say you did that? I know this is really stupid. But yeah. See, that's, that's what I'm wondering. I mean, now I'm, I've, my instincts, you've turned my head on all my instincts in these types of conversations where I'll over explain the benefits of going on said trip or

Purchasing said item. Yeah, you know, how do we how do we set ourselves up for success? I like the idea of argue less talk more, but I'd also like to win Yeah, you know Buy more About a gun that I'd like. And we're gonna walk away from this conversation with you understanding that I should get this. Yeah, we're gonna walk away from this conversation with me owning that gun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's probably not exactly what he teaches. Yeah, it's a little different. It's slightly different. Yeah.

Like I think there's also, what I have seen work is as, one is whether or not you give the permission to even buy the purchase. Because if you feel like you have to get permission, then you feel like you have to hold court on whether it is or not worth your time, is or not worth your, and then you have to feel like you're over explaining or not worth your time, is or not worth your money.

And then you have to feel like you're over explaining. And then we get frustrated having to justify a world that they don't understand. And so instead of the, Hey, so I'm hoping to buy, I would switch it to, I'm going to buy. And that sounds a lot more definite of, Hey, I'm going to go buy a rifle. And also this is this element too of, and this applies to a lot of different contexts, but I say when it comes to giving your case on something, don't, don't be a waterfall, be a well.

Meaning instead of feeling like I have to anticipate all of your questions and I have to go ahead and fend off every arrow you're going to send, shoot my way. And I have to just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is only going to guarantee you're going to get a lot more questions about it. Be a well, meaning they're going to have to ask a question. You'd be very short. They're going to have to ask a question.

I do this with, um, it, uh, depositions. So I train my witnesses to make the attorney ask the question. So don't just try and guess where they're going with their questioning. Don't try and give them more. The longer of an answer you give, you're guaranteed to get more questions.

Period. Uh, it's the same thing with asking, um, anybody for anything. So if you're just going to say, Hey, I'm going out to purchase this gun, need us for this, whatever trip, a lot, don't try and anticipate the question. Just allow them to

then ask. Yeah. What if you come in and you act like you're mad about it? Damn it. I got to buy a brand new right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably really good technique. Set it all up, get excited. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, I got to do this. Like then you act like it's a big inconvenience. you. Oh, it'll be okay, sweet. Just pick a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's true. You could try and do that and get them on your side.

No, go get you a good one. Don't try and like, well what if you just spent more of her? And it's pre-cited in. Does that exist? Yeah. You can try crying, Randall, if that doesn't work. Yeah. But what about-

You have a kid with a cast Getting to the friends part like do you even I gotta justify that like no no I mean no no Yeah, no, I don't know. I just I was just trying not to make it about my marriage Yeah, you know so what would happen if my grandfather would say this a little bit Yeah, my grandfather would use this line. He'd say it found its way to me. That's what he'd say He go I just it's found its way to me like that's like he just he went out and bought way too many fishing rods Or whatever it is lures. He didn't mean it's I remember he came in with like a huge He learned about like he could buy in bulk. And so we had these lures called sluggos and

So and and when they first came out, and he goes, first thing he said was, they found their way to me. You know, like that's the way he would say it. Yeah, exactly. And we're like, oh, okay, all right. And we're gonna wrap it up, but everybody check out the next conversation.

I'm gonna, you know how I said I didn't read it? Yeah. I'm gonna read it. Oh, awesome, thanks, Fink. Like, I'm not lying, it sits on my bed. It sits on my stack. Awesome. Everybody in the office should read that book. Yeah, thank you, man. Oh awesome. Thanks. I'm not lying. It sits on my bed. It sits on my stack Yeah, thank you man

You're waiting behind you're in line behind a book about Jaguars. Oh a book about Kate Buffalo Oh, all right, this comes up this I'm honored the next conversation argue less talk more Jefferson Fisher Thanks, man. Yep. Learn how to get all kind of permissions all kind of guns Thanks man. Yep, learn how to get all kind of permissions, all kind of guns. There you go. Looking for how to get on public land. I really respect Goodreads ratings. Your book has a 4.62, that's outstanding. Awesome. It's hard to find a book above 4.5. Oh really? Fantastic. Congratulations. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen, Jefferson Fisher, thanks for coming on. Thanks, man. Thank you. I've been running FHF vinyl harnesses for over a decade and for the last couple years it has been the FOB because it's quiet, it's tough, and it just plain works and it's easy to work.

I've worn it and damn near every environment you can think of, desert mountains, snow, heat and it has never let me down. Now they've made it even better. They got new colors, more modularity and like everything FHF makes it's built right here in the USA. This is gear you can count on season after season. Pick up yours now at fhfgear.com.