The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 717: Is Live Scope The Death of Fishing?

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Danny Thompson, Jeremy Smith, Tony Peterson, Brody Henderson, Seth Morris, Phil Taylor, and Corinne Schneider. Topics Discussed: Getting stung by a lion fish; collared doves; backing in; debating live sonar; the future of using tech in fishing; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Steve Ronella here. The American West with Dan Flores is a new podcast production on the MeatEater Podcast Network. It's hosted by author and historian Dan Flores, who happens to be mine and our own Dr. Randall's former professor. By focusing on deep time, wild animals, native peoples in the

West's unique environments, Flores will challenge your understanding of the American West and he will help to explain why it is the way it is today. I count Dan Flores as a friend. We do not agree on everything, but he has had a massive impact on my understanding of American history and I invite you to get challenged by him in the same way that I have. Catch the premiere of the American West with Dan Flores on Tuesday May 6th on the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Subscribe to the American West with Dan Flores on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Dan and it will stretch your brain all out. And I mean that in a very good way. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case underwear-less. The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E dot com.

All right, Phil, you ready? We're rolling. I already started. Thank you. I appreciate that. We're just having a little chit chat prior in the subject. Did you bring it up, Seth? Yeah. Seth brought up how we have the shirt that Fisher was wearing on when he found the weights in the walleye.

And then I was wanting to point out to our guests here who are fishermen, that we actually hold in our possession the knife that was used to disembowel the wall eyes. So it's a piece of history. To find the weight and he, and then it was an interesting little detail is he was a little bit embarrassed about his knife work.

In the video, he's cutting open the wall eyes and he was embarrassed about that. It looked like his knife work was in expert knife work. And he pointed out that his leather man, the leather man, someone handed him had a broken tip. And that's why he wasn't able to more expertly extricate the lens. And when I was watching that video, the last thing I was

worrying about was his knife work. That's the first thing I thought of. So this morning I was reading that Harvard University, they've been in the news a bunch for getting their balls busted about anti-Semitism on campus, but they bought a different news story about Harvard. They bought a copy of the Magna Carta, did you see this? For $27.50, long, long, long ago. And these scholars just realized that it's the original copy. Holy cow.

Oh, wow. What? Someday, they're gonna be arguing about this knife. And I wonder if there's maybe hopefully like walleye DNA. You mean arguing about the provenance of it. They'll be like that can't be the actual knife despite the label. On this side there's like a little rust is that rust or is that like some dried blood? I just hope no one washed it so when there is like a big thing and like a big scandal and like It sells on Sotheby's for millions of dollars and shit, you know

It's like owning the gun that shot Lincoln or something like that exactly. Yeah. Well, I traded that for this. Yeah Yeah, it's the actual knife it's's impressive. Here in our private collection. Um, that might be our only, no, I don't think we have a lot of artifacts, like, look, culturally significant artifacts like that. Start collecting more. Uh, today we're joined by two enthusiastic anglers who happen to be not friends with each other. I hope you come out of this friends.

We built a good friendship. They're friends with Chesterester who's not here. Jeremy Smith and Danny Thompson and what we're here to talk about was we're here to have a friendly discussion. A friendly discussion about what's the slang term for it? Live scope. Forward-facing seminar? Yeah well no live scope. Live scope. Live scope. The other day I was sitting at I was stuck at a boat launch for hours because the wheel for it. Live scope. Forward facing seminar? Yeah. Well, no, live scope, live scope. Live scope. The other day I was sitting at, I was stuck at a boat launch for hours

cause the wheel fell off my trailer. Made a lot of friends. Especially when it was, it fell off the trailer blocking the boat launch, you know. Oh, you're the asshole. Yeah, it was funny. There's two kinds of people in this world. There's people that will do anything

to try to back a trailer around you in a moment of distress and there's people who will come up to help. Yeah right. You know there's a funny joke there's two kinds people in this world there's people that think you can bucket everybody into two brackets. It's a joke. Anyway while I'm sitting there in my moment of distress, no my moment of distress is over because thanks to the help of a fellow angler, we got the boat out of the way. And then we were just people sitting there with nothing to do, waiting for a flatbed trailer. And a guy bragged to another guy.

He bragged to another guy. He's like, just got forward facing sonar. Boom. So I thought, man, you should come into the studio because we're going to be talking about this in a couple of days. We're going to have a friendly discussion about the future of forward facing sonar.

Is it the end of fishing or just the beginning? And we have a sonar enthusiast, Danny Thompson. Works for Garmin, but is not here representing Garmin. Can I even say that you work there? You got a Garmin t-shirt on. I mean, people are gonna know. Works for Garmin, but it's not here as a rep of Garmin, but he's a sonar enthusiast. And we're also joined by

Jeremy Smith, who is from Lindner Media Productions and anglingedge.com, who is, is it fair to say, suspicious of, nervous about? I think there's reasons for concern with the technology in certain cases. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to lead, we're going to do the news first. I don't want to lead the thing, but we've been here before. For hunters out there that don't care about fishing, we've been here before with drone technology. Smart rifles too. Yeah, remote control, hunting with remote control rifles. Yeah, wildlife.

Like this comes up, this comes up. Sure. How do we fit new, how do we fit emerging technologies into our regulatory structures? Wireless cell cameras. Yeah. Wireless cell cameras, two way communications. Like throughout the history of wildlife management, we've done two things. We've gone back and reconsidered old technologies like dynamite. Right? Right. They're like, you know what? I know y'all been fishing with dynamite, but we're going to stop. So we've done that. And then we've engaged around emerging technologies. And I have a couple of thoughts about how that goes. And we're going to hear from the fellas here about their thoughts, but can I throw out one tiddle later,

just to tell everybody to keep them hanging around? The minute there was like a whisper of using drones for hunting, they went after drones before there was a user group. Smart. And I started to think to myself, like you have to, if you are, if you look at an emerging technology,

you cannot wait for a user group and you cannot wait for an industry to build around it. Once you wait for an industry to build around it and an enthusiastic user group, right. You missed your chance. You missed your chance. Um, like had someone a long time ago said, you know what? These gas powered boat motors are going to kill fishing. Now you got dudes everywhere. Yeah. You can fish five miles from your house. You're not shutting that down. Now you would have been like people that you

could have gotten some old timers to be like, yeah, what's wrong with Rowan? And you would have gotten, you could have banned boat motors for fishing, but you missed your chance. It's too late. Now, if you bring it up, I remember my dad in the lake, I grew up on trying to get a no wake zone in the evening. Jeez, they about burned our house down. But first the news.

I got two news pieces that aren't really, well, one's a news piece. The other day, you know that there's a dude, one of the guys that works at the meteor store on Main Street, the other day he calls my kid to ask me, they're headed to the emergency room because he'd stepped on a lionfish. Ooh, man.

Which is painful. And I got zapped by a lionfish and I thought I was gonna die because I didn't know about it. It's like, I remember getting bit by a lionfish and I thought I was gonna die because I didn't know about it. It's like I remember getting bit by a bullet ant and I knew it was bad but I didn't know what happened and when I got hit by a lionfish in the hand real hard like someone swung it on the end of a pole spear into my hand. I was with Ronnie Bane. I remember Ronnie Bane yelled to me, put it in cold water.

And you look online, don't put it in cold water. What you do, and I haven't talked to these guys since, but it was extremely painful, but very short lived. Like your hand, like my hand, his foot, whatever, just blows up and it's excruciating pain. Like I was just laying in the bottom of the boat, writhing in pain. Two hours later, I couldn't even remember

where the hell it happened. You get hot water, is hot, like get it so it's too hot to put your hand in. And then the minute you can put your wound in that hot water, somehow it dissolves that toxin and alleviates it. So yeah, they had been waiting through the mangroves and one of them had stepped on it,

but I haven't heard any news from them since then. Another personal news bit is this morning, I was trying to remember if the invasive dove is called a ring neck dove or a collar dove. It's a collar dove, but they're everywhere now. Oh yeah. In this state recording Southwest Montana today for the first, I'd always see him around town.

I saw the first three in my yard today. Oh really? First and first three I ever see like the first three I ever see. I've seen them from. Actually, I need to go into my bird list and put them down. We keep a bird list for the yard. The first thing I ever seen like touch foot in my yard. Yeah, we've got tons of them.

So I'm debating, like my kid will get them now and then elsewhere. I'm debating is it ethical or not ethical to start a little feed station. Yeah, go for it. Cause on one hand you're supporting them, but on the other hand, You're whittling them down.

You're trying to whittle them down. It's an ethical conundrum with probably legal, with probably legal components, but you're allowed to feed birds. Yeah. And they're not a game bird. And they're an invasive, so. I don't know.

I've had it. They're bigger than morning doves, I think. yeah, I can tell them just if you get like because I mean morning does are a little bit You know, it's like the mana zoom was dove. It's like a real small little shit in morning dove And you got like a morning dove and you kind of get used to that size. Yeah, it's just a plumper. Yeah It's a plumper bird the other day. We were at Their night. We were at my neighbors. We're shooting bows at my neighbors because he's got a great shooting setup. And I look out in his front yard and there's a collar dove getting a drink of water out of a mud puddle and I told my kid try to get him

and then we questioned it. My neighbor's wife pointed out that might not be the most popular move with a neighbor. Mm-hmm. So we did not do it. And then I told them I was like confirm the collar or else she might be in big trouble with the law. Yep. She don't want to be a mourning dove. A dude wrote in we had had a big discussion about Doug Durin's emphasis on A dude wrote in, we had had a big discussion about Doug Dern's emphasis on always backing in. And how he credits backing in with saving his father's life,

which I think is an overstatement. I think Vince Dern would have survived getting attacked by his own chainsaw, whether he had backed in or not. But there's a term for it that I didn't know. In the mining industry, what's the O&G industry? I was trying to figure that out. He says in the mining industry. Oh, okay.

This guy says in the mining and oil and gas industries it is called the move it's called first move forward I like backing in you call it backing in and there and everybody's like yeah I know what that means or you can call it first move forward and people will be that they don't know what that means that's like the tactical name for it yeah it's like your wallet used to be your wallet now it's your EDC. Your pocket knife was always a pocket knife. It's your EDC.

Like I wrote a big thing about Red Dawn, which I don't know why. Did we talk about Red Dawn? It's a great movie. You've brought it up a lot. Yeah. Eating the deer heart and whatnot. Well, I brought it up because I am now,

like I now have my boy being, my boy is at the age where, you know, 14, 15 years old. He's at the age where I can now go show him all the movies I liked when I was 14, 15 years old. So we recently watched Red Dawn. And the guy wrote in, and I'm not totally sure why. I like it enough to talk about it, but I don't know what he's getting at.

He says, Red Dawn, 1984, is a masterpiece of modern cinema. Makes you think about all kinds of cool stuff like government, authority, history as written by the victors, and of course dirty commies. But I'm puzzled by history as written by the victors because in the end of Red Dawn they go to the monument and you gather from the monument that we beat the commies. We beat back the commies. As a boy eating Pop Tarts and watching TNT to film, I think about words quite a bit, like definitions of vigilante, freedom fighter, terrorist and the like. Also how all my boy scout ranks and commendations would crush in a post-invasion America. That's another good thing he brings up because in

Red Dawn the guy that has the Eagle Scout is being targeted by the Ruskies. Remember? They think it's a paramilitary organization. He says superheroes are kind of vigilantes. America is at war with the Ter... I wish I better understood where he's going with this. What it boils down to in the end. He's trying to ask what are those kids in Red Dawn? No, that's what... yeah, I love it. Alex, love everything about

it. Love your letter. I think he's saying like that from, it depends on who's perspective, right? Because here you have, they're violating, they're, they're poaching deer to eat, but they're the heroes. So are they poachers? Well, I mean, are they poaching? Like, are you still a poacher if you're being occupied by some? It would have been good if they had showed him tag that box. He like validates his tag. Take it to the registration station. I think they get a pass. They're really nervous about going back into town, but I need to register this, I got 24 hours. Yeah, like you go up to the Russian general with your tag Legal it's a great question And then he gets into of course

The Mary the the Robin Hood's people Okay, you know Robin Hood's people are poachers because they steal the king's game and And share it with the poor folk This would have been better directed to clay who does a lot of his bear greases about Violators poachers, but in clay's formula, he won't do a poacher unless the poacher is dead. He won't profile a poacher. He'll profile famous dead poachers or he'll profile poachers who reformed,

reformed, who saw the light. Yeah. He's not talking to active poachers. Yeah. He doesn't, he doesn't profile poachers. I think that's it. That's it for the news, right? Oh no. There are a couple things in there, but they're not all amazing. Pick and choose. Well, we got that. And then we got a guy writing in that just is an interesting thing for people to follow. He puts thing in quotes. There's a thing in quotes

happening in my little hometown of Elkins, West Virginia that I find incredibly entertaining. He says he has no affiliation with anyone related to this and he's been moved out of there for 15 years. But he still likes to follow the local hunting and fishing scene on Facebook. He says there's a young man named Trent Mullineew, Mullenax, maybe Mullenew, probably, who's been catching an absurd number of absolutely gigantic rainbow

trout and he's been putting his photos up at middle mountain sporting goods, the local hunting bait shop. And he keeps hammering giant trout. And everyone in the town is in an absolute uproar, accusing Trent of all kinds of nasties. Like unable to explain this streak of success saying he's following the stock truck. Other guys are defending his honor and saying these are huge fish. No matter how he caught them, people have begun writing poems to explain

his incredible street. One of those that breed right now, like it's inspired poetry. Trying to explain his incredible streak. He says it's worth at least a mention, and then he gives the Facebook page. Or search middle mountain sporting goods on Facebook, and you'll find their page, and you can follow his trout fishing exploits.

You can follow the arguments of his critics and defenders. That seems well worthwhile. Must not be a lot going on in that town. But it reminds, it a little bit reminds me of another famous, another, it reminds me a little bit of the Rampala book. In Mitch Rampala is legacy of giant bucks in that it like, here's this guy, like, well, giant buck and then buck after buck after buck. Right.

And people are like, why I don't get bucks like that. How could he be getting these bucks? There must be something going on. He posts another buck, you know what I mean? Yeah, there's a level of success where you just go, uh, really? You know, yeah, that's exactly what I thought when you were talking about that. I'm like in the hunting industry, every once in a while, somebody will all of a sudden be just, you know, one eighties, two hundreds in a situation on fire.

Yeah. Where you're like, really? Like four of them in a season kind of thing. And sometimes when that happens, eventually you find out that it's just, there's some shenanigans going on. Yeah. I'm not saying that Trent here is right. No accusations.

There's just a level of success. This reminds me of my high school days, because we used to go help stock the rivers around my area and then we kind of knew what holes to fish. Yeah, but that was not, but this would be brood stock. Yeah, exactly. Right. If he's fishing stockers, he's fishing eight inch, he's fishing eight inch rainbows.

Well, no, they always dump in some of the old, worn out breeders. Oh, they do? Oh yeah, they dump big ones. You dirty dog, Trent. Yeah. What, but who cares if he's catching? Wouldn't they be super identifiable though? It doesn't, I mean those fish are gonna die by mid summer anyway. They don't live? The brood stock when you dump them in? I mean if they can find it because they're not naturally reproducing probably. If they can find a spot where there's some cold water but at least around Pennsylvania and some areas, some streams, it just gets too warm. Yeah.

Let's have a quick poetry contest. If people go and if people don't mind, like go type in, what are you supposed to type in? Middle mountain sporting goods. So middle mountain sporting goods. If you wanna write a poem. This is in Elkins, West Virginia. Yeah. Write a poem about Trent, send it in.

We'll judge the best poem. We'll send him a present. And then, uh, and then if Trent, if you want to call in, I'd love to have you call in and talk about your experience. Is that all fair? Mm-hmm. All right. Let's go around the room and

introduce everybody. Danny? Well, Danny Thompson, obviously, you know, worked for Garmin Marine from Andover, Minnesota, and fishing enthusiast, been in the industry now for like 10 years, I guess, in the fishing business, so. Do they know you're here? Yeah. Okay, you told them?

Oh, yeah. Did they, did they express any kind of reticence that you would come on and express opinions? No. No? Okay. Support told them? Oh yeah. Did they, did they express any kind of reticence that you would come on and express opinions? No. No. Okay. Supportive. Yeah.

Good deal. Sweet. Well, I'm Jeremy Smith. I work for Linder Media Productions. We make fishing content. So we specialize in making sport fishing content in the upper Midwest and Canada and avid anglers. So I also would be representing a technology company in many regards with Johnson Outdoors,

they're a customer of ours. So yeah, so Danny and I both have that connection to technology. And Linder is the Lindy rig. Yeah, like Ellinor. Yep. Can you explain that? Because I think people will know, maybe people would, well, when I say people, like me, for instance, I grew up knowing the Lindy rig. Sure. And then only later was like, oh, Linder.

Linder. Yeah. So yeah, the Linder family founded, they made the Lindy rig famously and then In Fisherman magazine, which turned into In Fisherman television. And then in the late nineties, they sold that company and then started another company called Lindor media. And so they've had that business for about 22 years. I've been there for almost 20 of it so. Oh that's fun. Yeah, yeah it's good. Yeah, I get to fish all over so. If you like fishing it's a good job.

Seth, now I gotta say this here, Seth is a, I wouldn't even, I've fished this emerging technology with Seth. Seth, would you regard yourself as an enthusiast or suspicious? Um, I like using it, but I think there's, I have mixed opinions. I think there's, there's at times you got to be real careful certain things. And then other times it's real fun. Yeah. The first thing, if you're listening at home, the first thing we're going to do after these intros is someone is going to explain what we're talking about.

Yep. Someone's going to explain like, like a sort of, uh, um, an impartial explanation of what is live scope and I have gone with Seth live scoping walleyes and you're able to sharp shoot specific individual fish. Yep. You're able to be like, no, he's like 10 feet to the right. Nope. Little, little, little like cast a little further.

Oh yeah. Yeah. He's facing left. Yep. Boom. Yep. Yeah, he's facing left. Yep. Boom. Yep. Corinne? I've used it once.

Did you like it? I was fishing. I did. It was cool to be able to look in the hole as one window and then look on the screen as another window for, you know, information as to what was going on. Did you catch fish you otherwise wouldn't have caught? I don't think so.

Cause you know, like in a small hole in the ice, there's, I mean, we weren't spearing for anything. It was just, our line was down there. So not really. I'll tell you, technology that lets you catch fish you otherwise wouldn't have caught ice fishing is a underwater camera. When they go to mouth it, like sometimes they'll mouth something that you would have never even registered to hit.

And you'll be like one you're like now. Ford facing sonar isn't that far off from an underwater camera. Really? Right. Steve Rinella here. The American West with Dan Flores is a new podcast production on the MeatEater podcast network. It's hosted by author and historian Dan Flores, who happens to be mine and our own Dr. Randall's former professor.

By focusing on deep time, wild animals, native peoples in the West, unique environments, Flores will challenge your understanding of the American West. And he will help to explain why it is the way it is today. I count Dan Flores as a friend. We do not agree on everything, but he has had a massive impact on my understanding of American history and I invite you to get challenged by him in the same way that I have. Catch the premiere of the American West with Dan Flores on Tuesday, May 6th on the MeatEater Podcast Network. American West with Dan Flores on Tuesday, May 6th on the meat eater podcast network.

Subscribe to the American West with Dan Flores on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Dan and it will stretch your brain all out. And I mean that in a very good way. I'll tell you real quick. I'll tell you a fishing Canyonerry through the ice for perch that some days I wish I didn't have forward facing sonar because you see those fish come right up to your bait and then just swim away. And you're like, I would rather not just assume that there's nothing going on down there.

You'd get home a lot earlier. But you're like, dude, they're down there. Yeah. Tony? down there. Yeah, that happened. You'd get home a lot earlier. Yeah. You're on that.

But you're like, dude, they're down there. Yeah. Tony? Tony Peterson. I actually have a weird connection to both of these fellows. Danny and I live in the same town, so every once in a while I'll be at like a dance class with my daughters or something, I'll look over and he'll be standing there because his daughter's in the same class, which is weird. And then I used to work in the in Fisherman office. So I started out as a fishing writer. My first gig, like real full-time gig was as an editor for Peterson's bow hunting magazine. And we were in the in

Fisherman office. So. Cool. Which one of them is smarter? Well, we'll find out. We'll find out. But I, I'm, this is a topic that I'm like crazy interested in. Are you? Yeah. Are you using the technology? I don't have it on my boat, but I've used it. My tournament partner has it.

I've used it. I'm, I don't, I literally am kind of agnostic on it. I have one foot in each camp because I can see, I can see where I think it's going. and I feel like when it comes down in price and the average walleye guy gets it, where I live, it could be a, could impact the resource, but I'm also like real, I don't like taking stuff away without a really good reason.

Mm-hmm. Can I tell you a story? Yeah. You know how, uh, drones and hunting and now guys are putting thermal on drones supposedly for recovery. Who was telling us recently some guy they know already. It's like, if you know where a white tail buck is, it's not, you're going to sneak in and kill it out of its bed

Right just that doesn't really you're not gonna like crawl up on a bedded whitetail and kill it I mean maybe once in a lifetime But when he's setting up He flies his area To see where deer are bedded and that influences where he sets up to pick them off coming out of their beds So already. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. When you like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, Oh no, my buddy lost a buck. I'm just trying to find it. Well, I mean, you think about that and say, say the difference between a big woods hunt, you know, low deer density

or whatever, or fly, you know, fly a drone. There'd be a different thing. Think about like a cattail slew or a Western, like Western Minnesota, where you could be like, that dude's bedded in that little willow patch. Yeah. There we're going to go push him out or I'm going to go sit up over him. Yeah.

So it's the wind's doing this. Right. He's bedded there. Right. Yeah. So I, yeah, there, there are ways you could put that to you. I mean, we were talking about turkeys earlier.

I mean, you could probably find a roost. I've never used a drone with the infrared on it. Oh, God. But you could probably find a roost and be like, we got birds right there. You know? Sure. Brody.

Brody is Brody. Yep, I'm Brody. You're probably torn. I'm torn. I don't have it on my boat. Like I fish a lot for while I perch around here all summer long with my boys. Um, and I've been tempted, but I haven't, I haven't gotten it because mostly because I don't want to be staring at that screen all day long. Like, and it's not like this like war against screens necessarily, but it's like you go out fishing and the whole day goes by and you haven't like, yeah, it's

just, and we do all right without it. You know what I mean? We do fine. Okay. This is the last thing I'm going to say before we explain what it is we're talking about. This is interesting. Bass, so professional bass circuit. They've limited competitors to one LIS transducer and 55 inches of screen space. What does that mean? Let's explain what it is first. That's too complicated. Who's gonna explain what the hell it is, Danny? I'll give it a shot. So don't get into whether it's gonna end the world or not.

Yeah, yeah, no, so basically if we look back at sonar and what we're running in our boats and whatnot, you know, traditionally we'd have traditional sonar, like 2D sonar. We're kind of sending a ping down to the bottom, it's coming back. If it comes back with something like a fish, it might look like an orc, or we might get bottom, something like that. But it was all basically history, right? So we'd mark it, and whatever's sort on the right-hand side

of our screen there would be most recent. And then it'd kind of scroll across the screen. Okay, look, we went over a rock pile. Maybe we went over what we thought was a big walleye. What was the delay? I mean, it depends on how fast you're going and all that kind of stuff. But let's say, get to the middle of the screen,

it might've been five to 15 seconds ago, depending on how fast we're going. Could've been a second ago if we're going fast, right? But now with Live Sonar, what we're doing is we're basically taking like scanning sonar, so it's almost gonna be more of like a side imaging image or down imaging image or a down imaging image. We're speeding it up really fast. And then on top of it, what you're able to do is

get a really wide cone angle. So with traditional sonar, we're maybe seven to 16 degrees. So the coverage of the bottom, not only was it like historical, we might only be covering anywhere from five to, you know, 10 feet of the bottom, maybe. That's all we're seeing. Okay. Now with a live scope transducer, let's just say in this case, I have it mounted on my trolling motor, I have 135 degree cone angle by 20 degrees.

So if I'm sitting on a lake, like Mille Lacs on the mudflats, I can look backwards, let's say 25 feet, and I can look forward up to 200 feet. You know, and, and obviously, you know, it's depth dependent. So the shallower we go, the less distance that we can see, the deeper we are, kind of the better the image really gets. And what is, um, tell folks about at what depths has it become irrelevant? Like what are the, the technology now allows you to fish not a hundred feet, right?

Yeah. I mean, we could go, you to fish not a hundred feet, right? Yeah. I mean, we could go, you know, I was trout fishing up in Canada and we can see down past a hundred feet of water. Oh really? You know, um, and then there's, there's other transducers now, like we've got an XR that will work like saltwater, you know, so

you can get down to like 500 feet, fresh water and 300 feet saltwater. Dude, now I want one man. I want that. I was on the fence. You'd be able to see that Lincoln sitting around that hole. I was on the fence, but now I'm like firmly in the. Podcast over.

See, as soon as you said 300 feet of salt water. Cause that's like mystery land down there, dude. Oh yeah, yeah. But, and it's live, you know, and then as, as we go shallow, we actually have what we call like a perspective mode. So we can kind of take that cone angle and turn it on its side, so to speak. So we're going to be 20 degrees up and down. We're going to be 135 or technically 150, kind of that left and right.

So now when we get in that under 10 feet of water, we can still get our distance. But it's not like, you don't, you can't see your bait dropping as well. You know, the fish, the image isn't quite as good as it is like in the forward mode. Okay. But for people that aren't familiar, like you can point that thing to where you want it. Yeah. So like, like in this example, I'm in a bass boat, right?

And I have it on my trolling motor. Wherever my trolling motor is pointed is where that image is looking, you know, and then that's why we pick that 20 degree cone angle. So if we're flipping docks or I'm, you know, throwing a bait into some mill foil or I'm scoping walleyes with slip bobbers, when I see that fish 75 feet out and I make that cast, if we were to go wider, we're not able to be accurate. So we keep it 20 degrees so that when we throw that bait, the bait's going to land relatively close to that fish. Okay. If I can land in a 20 degree cone angle. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Jeremy. Okay. Here's

what here. You're going to get a lot more chances to talk, but the, the, the what's good about it is pretty obvious. It helps you catch fish. All right. Jeremy, if you wouldn't mind now that he's explained what the technology is, can you articulate some cons like what, what is this? What are the concerns that anglers should be considering as we, as we make up our minds about this technology. And I just want to remind people, and before you go, I want to

preface this by saying, just to give the historical context, in fisheries, wildlife management, fisheries management, there is, since the beginning of fisheries management and since the beginning of wildlife management, fisheries management. There is, since the beginning of fisheries management, and since the beginning of wildlife management, we have regulated technologies. Net size, mesh size, use of explosives, use of poisons, use of electronics. We make it that sometimes a year you can't fish.

We tell people how many fish they can have, how big a fish they can have. Um, we distinguish between whether you're a resident or a non resident. Like we regulate the piss out of hunting and fishing just to set the, this is not like, um, you know, this, this can be a lot of things, but this can't be a issue of, is it fair to regulate fisheries? Yeah, because we do. Because we regulate the hell out of fisheries. Absolutely we do.

Okay, so I just want that, I'm just telling for the audience, like any question I think is fair, but I'm like, but it should start with the knowledge that we always are weighing impacts on resource. Yeah, and you hit on a topic right away that I think was good. So in terms of technology, like fishing hasn't really looked at tech and said, you know, like this this this tech is out of bounds

I mean we have with dynamite for example, but electronics technology for example, so But you can't think of an example I can't so nobody said like you can't have side imaging or down imaging or mapping is out of bounds, right? So, but with hunting you you had a good point earlier on Steve that like You've got this adoption rate when this technology comes on board where you get a big user group that loves it Right, and then others are concerned about it. So in terms of regulating something beyond that that becomes really difficult So to me one of the biggest places of concern, and I know you love these critters Steve, with Larry Ramseil on here, is muskies. Right? I also want to ask if you

got Larry's girlfriend with your bluegill bobber, Byteley. You know what though, I think I did. I realize he invited me to go muskie fishing. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think I've ever legitimately caught a muskie. Yeah. Even, yeah, even after talking to them. Okay. Tiger muskies, which don't count. Well, they're cool. They're super cool fish, but yeah. So muskies, in my opinion, like they're, they have low reproductive rates. They get really big. They tend to suspend in open water. So they're really easy to see with this technology. So muskies are, in my opinion, awesome, right? They've been a fish that's really hard to catch. You got to bust your ass to catch them. They live in cool places. There's all this cool culture around muskie fishing, making lures and you know, just the

mystique of it. And so now with the technology like this, you know, to encounter one has been historically really cool. Now you talk to dude like, how'd you do today? He's like, oh, we got 10. Any big ones? Oh yeah, we got, you know, four over 50. Like what? No way. Like you can put this tech down and drive, you know, cross sections of a lake and be like, we're not fishing until we see one. You don't even bother with trolling. Like that's completely a waste of time now because you just use this tech to find the fish, cast at them. Boom. Right. So muskie anglers like have a huge problem with this, right? And so the trad traditional muskie anglers, you bet. Yeah. And I would say, you know, not all of course, but a large percentage of them are saying, Hey man, like, you know, we've had, I'm sorry to

go to Minnesota here for this example, but it's what I know is like, we've had a history of what I would say, poor management of muskies since the early 2000s where we've lost a number of our stock fisheries, the numbers of fish that we have, which has forced a lot of pressure on our native fisheries because the stock fisheries that they built, they built this big group of anglers who love participating in the sport. The fish aren't necessarily there anymore, so we're putting all this pressure on our native fisheries. Can I ask what's happened to those fish? It's been a stocking issue and we've had issues with the politics around it. We had a bunch of people back maybe 10 years ago that just hated muskies.

And so it got to be this political climate where it just became difficult to get fish. We've had problems raising fish. Because they were mowing on walleyes. Walleyes. They eat everything, which obviously is not true. That was the thought. That was like the narrative used against muskies was that they're eating the walleyes and the walleyes are more valuable. Yeah, but the bottom line is when you've got these big predators and systems like you've got a really quality fishery like we know that right?

Right. Places where muskies live, big pike live, there's just good fishing if you want a quality fishery. So there aren't many bad fishing lakes that just have giant muskies everywhere. No. They're all amazing. All the good lakes have big muskies in them. They go hand in hand with good fishing. They do, they definitely do.

So Leech Lake, for example, which is one of our native fisheries, it's a place where we get all the brood stock for muskies. I was on this like crusade throughout the winter having done this like just to give you an example of how powerful this technology is it's like oh you know we know that these fish are out in these open water basins and it's like these big huge expansive areas that essentially like from a wildlife side you would look at this area is basically functionally remote just because the

technology wouldn't allow us to access this, these fish or these fisheries with any, you know, precision, any efficiency, really inefficient means of targeting fish. So now you go out there and I'm like, I'm going to try this. I'm going to take my 10 year old kid out there, half hour, boom, two 50 inch muskies, you know, like what? No man, like I've done this for 30 years. Like this doesn't happen. Talk to my buddy, you know, oh yeah, we got 31 in the last four days.

Like what? Any big ones? Yeah. The smallest was 47. You're going, dude, this is nuts. Now there's 30 boats out here and this has never been fished. Like what, what does this mean? And there's dead fish floating. Right. So that, okay. That's the concern. It's not, it's not that it's easy. Not that it became much easier than it traditionally was to catch a musky is that now that it's so efficient to catch them,

the mortality rate is going to go way up and the resource is going to be in real trouble if it goes the way it looks. So, so yeah, it could be mortality rate, but you also have to look at this as like the opportunities. So it is going to, it is going to condense opportunities, right? To those who have the technology versus so, cause you're trying to recycle these opportunities, right? With muskies, you're not, you're not looking for a harvest component of this.

You want, you want the fish to stay in the system. So all of a sudden it, let's just, just make up a number, say there's a hundred opportunities for musky. If you're condensing all those to June at the beginning of the season with people using this technology, the outcome for the angler who wants to go throw it a weed bed or a rock pile is now different, right? That opportunity's gone to this, you know, driving around not fishing until you see a fish. So there's a group of anglers that are like, hey man, not only could this be killing a lot of big

fish that are hard to replace in our native fisheries, we also like to go just cast and suffer, you know, do all this hard work. Like, we really appreciate the suffering of the sport. The reward is big. And that's changing the outcome for us. And we want to do something about it. Now I'm back to being against it. Danny? And I think here's the deal. I got one in my shopping cart. At the end of the episode, I'm going to hit buy or not.

And me and Jeremy got to talk about this a lot. And we're actually both on a panel with the Minnesota DNR where we actually do get to somewhat discuss this a little bit, you know, which is a new thing. Obviously. I'm sorry. I didn sorry, what's the panel? So and Jeremy's probably better on explaining that. I've only made it to the one summit that we just had. I just recently got like appointed to it.

But so the Minnesota DNR has these like species or interest workgroups or they've got stakeholders that meet with the agency. And you come up with some ideas of, you know, what do we want to do for better management for Panfish or Walleye or Musky? In this case, they've got one on technology. So they do. Yeah, they do recently. And they have one on Musky's too. So, you know, they kind of go hand in hand there, obviously in Minnesota. Is the technology one focused on a broad spectrum of technologies or is it basically they're talking about live? It felt like we're basically talking live scope at this point. I mean that is the most pressing issue and when you're talking

technology and fishing right now. Can I throw out, there's one that I know is riling folks up. I'm not, we're not gonna get it, we don't need to like debate this because this is, I don't know anything about it, but, um, dropping baits with drones is becoming relevant in a couple pursuits. Um, dropping baits into bait balls, uh, where you can, instead of getting a boat real close, where you got to start spooking, fishing bait balls, you have a drone fly out and can drop a live bait onto a bait ball. And then there used to be a thing like surf casting.

You'd keep a boat and then you'd run out and drop where you wanted it. And now guys just sticking them where they want them. So maybe you guys can argue about that and your little thing. But go back, Danny. sticking them where they want them. So maybe you guys can argue about that in your little thing. But go back, Danny. No, basically, I mean, I feel like, you know, and to kind of touch on the first point we've talked about, me and Jeremy got to talk a lot, obviously, at the end of the day, like, nobody wants to do what's wrong for the fisheries, right? And I feel like everybody's opinion, and

this is the point that, you point that we always talk about, and like me and him talked about yesterday, is a lot of it is coming down to ethics, right? But everybody's ethics can be a little bit different on what we want to do. And at the end of the day, I don't think any outdoor industry company wants to do what's wrong for any other species. We want people to catch fish, we want to make superior products that help people catch more fish and you know, have more opportunity. So if we go in and we're devastating a fishery, like a muskie, that's very easy with this technology. Like I don't think anybody necessarily wants to do that. But I think what's important is we want to make decisions sort

of based on science, sort of based on facts and that sort of stuff, and not necessarily on emotion, right? Because everybody in this room, right, might have a different opinion on what is good and what isn't, and some people might like traditional fishing versus some people, like, you know, we in this room are all around the same age. I'd say we grew up in an age where like fishing meant, they were talking yesterday, like I got a handheld GPS that I'd

navigate out on the lake with. Well, my dad would mark a tree in a cabin and that was his method of mapping the lake, right? And then ice fishing, you know, I was in college during the crappie boom on Red Lake and like I got a flasher and thought that this was you know that was the end I was gonna catch a limit every single time but you know that isn't always the case either right and you know I always talk about like Bassmaster Classic this year got the best of the best they got the best of the best equipment when it comes to electronics and all that stuff and some of these guys still can't catch a limit of fish they're the best anglers out there you know so like there's certain use cases.

Yeah. Where like, I think it might be smart to maybe look towards some stuff, but also like just being careful that in the overall broader picture, fishing is huge. Right. And just making sure we're making the right decisions. Cause at the end of the day too, and this is a case, I think for everything from whitetail deer to wolves,

to, to fish, it's not one thing that's killing these fish or ruining a fishery. It's always kind of that death of a thousand cuts. Yeah. Right. So like not only do we have really good technology, we have really good boats now, really fast motors and you know, good, the 2D sonar is better than it's ever been, side imaging is like, you know, there know, there's a lot of, you know,

things that can lead to, you know, the detriment of a fishery. Pete I want to hit you guys with a couple clarifying questions, then we'll get into more opinion. None of us is probably, none of us is old enough to remember. And it was pre-internet, enough to remember. And it was pre-internet. Well, I was going to ask about the advent of just fish finders, sonar. None of us is old enough to remember and it was pre-internet, so there wasn't like a place for people just to like regurgitate opinions. So you don't really know. But I remember being a kid out on, we used to troll a lot of salmon in Lake Michigan, and I remember the graph paper. You had that pencil and you go home with a big roll. It was like the day of fishing captured on a roll. I wish I could recall what, if that was pointed out as, was that argued about?

It was. Yeah. That wasn't argued about. In Minnesota there was actually legislation in the 70s regarding that. Yeah. So that was going to be a big, big problem in crash fisheries for sure. Okay. That was debated.

It was. Yep. Okay. The other clarifying question is how have, just to help further set the situation up, how have the governing bodies of competitive fishing, what has been their attitude about it? Yeah, I mean, obviously bass fishing is the big umbrella, right? So in walleye fishing, it's kind of business as usual at this point, right? But in, in bass fishing, you know, there's the few different main, you know, leagues, I guess, that people fish.

And it's almost like all three of them sort of went, went a different route. And so you've got one that said, okay, no forward facing sonar. And who was that? Not doing it would be NPFL. Okay. And then we've got the major league fishing

series where they're going to allow it for like one of their periods. They'll split up the tournament into different periods. And so, okay, one of them. Dude, that's a great little test right there. That's almost like research, right? That's like A-B testing. And then Bassmaster actually is allowing like one live scope on the boat, you know, and that's sort of new this year. So last year was, was, and the years prior was sort of free for all. So that's why they're limiting the number of

screens and the number of live scopes. Cause what people were doing is putting live scopes, say on the back of the boat and using it for side imaging. And now you're getting live side imaging. Got it. And you had guys that were running, you know, four graphs on the dash, five up front.

And so they just said, okay, we're going to bring this down a little bit and we'll see what happens after this year, right? This will be a good learning year to see what happens. But as they go. And in worldwide nothing. Nothing.

Yep. Okay. And as you go around the country, you know, like he's speaking with the muskies and speaking with different fish, like different fisheries and different fish are more susceptible to it. So like when we go up north and we're doing a small-mall tournament, a lot of times it

turns into a scoping tournament, right? Got it. But like when we're down south and the guys are learning how to use forward-facing sonar, even in the south like just left Lake Fork and a lot of guys are scoping there, but a lot of guys are fishing traditionally as well. Man, I want to applaud whoever came up with the idea of doing some days with and some days without, because it'd be so fascinating just to compare the, the, the aggregate, the aggregate poundages taken on those days. That's an interesting little test, man. All right, let me hit you with an opinion one.

A way I've always looked at things that influence efficacy is that we have a, our resources occur in a limited pool, okay? And the way we allocate resources is dependent on success rates meaning just to put in the simplest terms let's say you have I'm gonna put it in a I'm gonna put it in a big game term and someone at the table hopefully can come up with a fishing analogy in big game let's say you have a unit of space okay you have a however you let's say you have a unit of space.

Okay. You have a, however you divide it up, you have a region or a unit or a mountain range, let's say you have a mountain range and on this mountain range, uh, you have. A hundred elk. You've determined that you're going to pursue a 10% harvest rate on those elk. So you're saying we're going% harvest rate on those elk. So you're saying we're gonna kill 10 of those elk. We know that our hunters traditionally have

a 10% success rate. Therefore, we're gonna give 100 individuals a hunting opportunity in those mountains because we're gonna wind up hitting our harvest objective if we look at this historic efficacy. Then let's say you were to go to that mountain range and you say, we're going to try something new this year, boys. We're going to give out 100 tags. You can hunt at night. You can spotlight. You can drone. You can thermal hunt. You can mount a firearm to a drone. Okay. Unlimited. We're going to make the season 365 days long.

Now you turn out that you have a 90% success rate, 10% of dudes don't show up 90% success rate. The next year when you issue tags, you're like, you know what? I think that we're going to have to do this. We're going to have to issue issue tags, you're like, you know what, I think that we're gonna have to do this. We're gonna have to issue 11 tags, not 100, because efficacy has shot through the roof. So now 11 people will have an opportunity to participate as opposed to 100 people having an opportunity

to participate. The question to each of you is, do you feel in fishing, there could be a similar situation at play where you're gonna feel, you used to be able to keep five, but no one really caught five, now you can keep two, or whatever the hell.

Do you picture, or to put it to an ethical question, it's two parts. Will this, could this become a thing in fishing and would you regard that as an acceptable cost of of the of using the technology? So will it happen and would you support it happening? I'll let Jeremy go first. Well I think you hit on just a great point here. So you know, this, where in hunting, I mean, you guys know the efficacy of a, of a spear, of a longbow, of a compound bow, of a crossbow, of an open-sized rifle. So all these technologies obviously can add to the efficiency of a harvest or, you know, harvest opportunity or a catch in the case of fishing.

So we're asking the question right now in fishing that kind of drives me nuts a little bit like does forward-facing sonar impact catch rates? Like we have no idea what the answer is. Of course the answer is yes, but it's variable, right? It doesn't happen every time, but it can, obviously, and it can make a big impact. So we're going to address this. Sorry to get off track here. We're going to address this a little bit like we want to look at data. We want to look at science to answer this question. Right?

So and I'm not at all against science, but I'm going to just say that the means in which technology is improving and the adoption rate with anglers is happening is massively outpacing any regulatory processes that can happen. The way we collect data, the way we analyze data, the way we implement what we learn from that data. So like a good example in Minnesota, I've got a buddy who's on this bluegill committee, right? So for like 10 years, even longer, They've been saying that like, hey,

you know, we're losing the big bluegills in Minnesota. This is far before forward facing solar, even side imaging, right? Just the big bluegills are disappearing. They're being harvested. We want to protect the big bluegills. We want to, you know, have a quality bluegill fishery in this state. So they talk about it for 10 years. Clearly the best solution is to

not harvest the big bluegills, just keep the big ones in the system, keeps recruitment low, all these great benefits to it. So. Which would, which is complicated because you're introducing the idea of a bluegill slot limit. Okay, right. Yes, exactly. Let me get to why this is so complicated. So this is clearly the, you know, that's, that's the answer. So, um, they talk about it for years. Eventually they come up with the idea that, you know, what we're going to do, we're going to take some lakes and we're just going to keep less. Well, that's not the answer. The answer is don't keep the big ones.

Right. So now in five years, now they're going to take 10 years to assess that, to see what the impact was in a reduced bag. And now they're talking about once that's up, we're going to look at doing like a nine inch, you know, maximum size harvest. So this is going to be like a 25 year process to use this science to identify, like look back 25 years where we're at. So I'm not saying that science isn't wrong. We shouldn't look at it.

We shouldn't use it. I'm just saying we also need to look at how this is a social science issue as well, that like there's just some places or people who don't maybe want this type of technology or as much advanced technology coming into certain areas of the sport. So it's not a, you can't have live scope, no more live scope for anybody, you know, or you can have it, but like we've got a lot of opportunities

to experiment with different resources, where we could use it, when we could use it, special regulate, we've got all these opportunities that I think we really need to be looking at more for starting with the social component, you know, saying, okay, we know we've got groups of anglers, let's listen to anglers, let's try to manage for what the user's expectations are and want

as we work on the science in the background. So has there been any like knee-jerk Regulatory actions taken like anywhere yet. Well, Montana said no right off his snake, right? Yeah, and a few states have lowered, you know catch limits, but that's really harvest about our harvest limits Yeah, yeah, that's really about it. Okay, but you gotta answer answer my question. Okay, what was the question? Now I want it in a tangent. Do you feel, or whatever you have for any kind of survey data or anything like that, do you feel that in some fisheries, live scope could lead to, could lead to adjustments in the regulatory structure.

Second part of the question is would you feel that that would is that acceptable? Yeah and it already has right like an harvest species like Mississippi lowered crappie rates on their big four down there and they attributed that to live scoping. Okay so they articulated that that was a response to that. Yes. The dudes are tearing it up on crappies. Yes, so that is already happening. And then paddle fish.

Yep, yep, paddle fish, it's happened. Well, that was different. For Montana to say you can't use it to snag, paddle fish is the opposite, not the opposite, it's like, okay, the technology's coming. We either limit the technology or we say it's coming, everybody's a better fisherman now, you can't keep as many fish. Right? You're all better now, so now we're gonna lower the potential impact by going after bag limits, going after

seasons in order to accommodate the technology. So let me know where you put in the questions. It's a great way to be. You feel that it could lead to a reduction in the resource and when you look at a state agency coming in and saying, okay it's here we're gonna lower bag limits. Do you like that's an approach orders the approach of it's here. We don't want a lower bag limit. So we need to make it not be here. Yeah. And I think it can be, you can look at it different ways. It can still be here, but maybe used during certain timeframes. Right. So, I mean, it's back to this whole, how efficient is your effort, right? How efficient is the angling effort? So I think it's, um, I think we should ask users

what, what they want, how they, how much do they value the technology over the experience of catching fish? Would you rather be able to use this technology and be able to catch whatever you can catch in a certain window of time, right? Or would you just say, you know what, we want this experience to last longer and therefore we,

we want to limit technology. So I think that's that social component that I think we, we want this experience to last longer, and therefore we want to limit technology. So I think that's that social component that I think we need to understand as much as anything, because to say that this technology won't impact opportunity or catch rates, just to try to understand what that is, I think we already know what the answer is. From an enforcement perspective,

the reduced bag limit approach seems a lot easier than having a warden going around checking every boat to see if they got a live scope transducer. Yeah, that seems like a nightmare. Yeah, if they did it instead of getting rid of like basically saying you can't you can only keep two wall eyes and use live scope year-round or whatever rather than like just getting rid of it all together and keeping that bag limit bigger. Well and we've got plenty of people in here who don't have the technology so is that fair to you? You don't have the technology so now you could keep six but now because I only get I want to give Danny a turn to

respond I like where you go to that that's a good question no I'd like everyone around the table like if okay I had a meander I want to give Danny a chance respond to the question which is, is the answer to regulate around it? Will that even be necessary or is the answer to stop the technology? I mean, and this is, like I said, this is work, it's difficult, right? So everybody's idea on what to do with it is gonna be so different. And the hard part, and we talk about this quite a bit, is a lot of times it's that top 10% of the anglers that are doing all the catching, all the keeping,

a lot of times. There's a saying about that. Yeah. And so it's hard because, you know, we're making all, we want to make all the regulation on that. And then also, like I said earlier, is we don't want to make regulation based on an emotion. so like in the panel for example we had a lot of guys that were very anti you know against live scope and whatnot but they've never used it and they don't really know you know the implements of it other than what they've maybe heard you know and then there's some media out there that's kind of like, you know, just putting taglines out there, headlines out there to get clicks, but then it's not necessarily like they're almost pitting it as the bad guy. Well, you know, like I say, if you're going to go out and catch, you know, 10 muskies in a day, like you're the bad guy, not necessarily the technology, right? So why, why do we need to limit a great resource

where I can learn about the fish? I can learn about the fishery. I can see what's on the bottom and, and use it, you know, respectfully or ethically, whatever that means versus a guy who's going out there and he's not, you know? So, and a lot of times, especially in muskie fishing, a lot of, a lot of it's like

the guides, like there's some guides. So state of Minnesota, prime example, like you can go out, put an ad on Facebook marketplace and say, Hey, I'm a muskie guide and no license, no training, no nothing. And go out and target 10 muskies every single day to make your money. There's no, there's no licensing or process on that. No, unregulated. Not even like insurance requirements. Well, I'm sure there is that. Yeah. But any, you could become, I could go there and become a guy. You could go be a guy tomorrow. Yeah. But you don't need like captain's license or anything? To Great Lakes. So like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot to this. It's the death of a thousand

cuts again. It's not like every single person going out there is catching all these fish and causing the problem. It's kind of that top tier. It's certain small groups, you know, that's all sort of leading to something. And that's where, like, if regulation is needed, then that's the avenue maybe we go down. But we want to do that with, like, if regulation is needed, then that's the avenue maybe we go down. But we want to do that with, like, a good science-based or some actual factual information versus going on emotion or going on what small select groups are doing. We want to make sure we're making these decisions, we're actually making a smart decision. You know, it's pretty funny, our colleague, Ryan Callahan,

we were one day talking about technology, and specifically we were talking about putting a camera down through the ice to watch fish. And he was talking about the emotional side of how you perceive it. Like you're saying, like, guys that are against

it, they don't really know what it is, they've never seen it, they haven't seen any data, but they're just against it. Cal was talking about this feeling of like if you're ice fishing, you could be catching fish and having a good time. A guy comes and drills a hole near you and lowers the camera down and Cal says you get this feeling like we're fucked now. All of a sudden it's like less fun. You know, you thought you were having a great time, but now you're not.

But that feeds in exactly to what I'm saying, right? So I might sell live scopes to a hundred people at a sports show one weekend, right? But ten of them are going to know how to use it. You know, like you can have all the technology. You can have the greatest rifle and hunting gear, but you're not always going to shoot that deer, right? Like, so obviously it's a tool that helps, but it's not the end all be all like, like, like it's made out to be. All right. Um, people want a chance to weigh in on it. So I just want to

clarify the question because it's a complicated question. Well, we could, we could forfeit the idea that it's going to impact harvest. I think everybody here is acknowledged. It's very effective for fishing. So let's just accept that it's going to impact harvest. If you were clarified as to put it, um, everybody needs to imagine a lake. They like to fish. Okay.

There's a lake you like to fish your favorite fishing spot. And they come to you and say, okay, we can do two things. We're either going to lower bag limits and shorten the season and keep live scope, or we're going to ditch live scope and keep the regulatory structure of the same. So it's come down to, you don't, you, Danny doesn't like this. Go ahead. No, no, I, I, I, I like the the question, but like once again, it just, it feeds into like,

no two people are the same, right? Like I like to hunt whitetails on private land out of a deer stand that I already hung. Tony likes to go to public land and, you know, hope something's there, right? Do you feel the question is not a good, I could give an example on the fishing side of things. Like I like to go to Fort Peck and target big walleye and I'm never going to keep them. Okay. Yeah. I would love to use live scope doing that. Okay. Exactly. I love, but what's the guy that likes to go to Fort Peck and keep a limit of wall eyes you know he's not targeting big fish he just wants to yeah like in my case i'm looking for a limit

so like i'd be like i'd be like we're out the lake i'm thinking of i don't need the forward face and keep the limits the same that's where you would fall oh yeah if you were put in this what's a Faustian decision i don don't know. Isn't that a thing? There's something like a bargain. All right. Thanks Phil. Okay. So you don't have to answer. You could do like Seth and have some like what some kind of waffle. He doesn't like like Danny didn't like the question. Seth didn't answer the question. Tony, do you, what do you feel about the question?

Do you know this, this has almost given me PTSD because this feels just like the crossbow debate in the whitetail world, right? And I actually, I mean, I look at forward-facing sonar kind of like, well, we're almost going from traditional bows to crossbows. People are scared of it. People don't know, you know, to Jeremy's point, you're like, okay, well,

we have the social aspect where a lot of people are like, I do not want this, because this is going to change the game. And on a broad level with the average user, which is kind of undeniable, right? But you also have what actually is the impact on the resource. And so what you're talking about is like the science,

to get the science, we always have to go retro, right? Like either that, or you just ban it and go, we're just going to be proactive and it's gone, but we don't live in that world right now. Well, no, the drone situation was that world. But the minute there was like a whisper of private drone use, I always remember it was kind of the one of the more interesting wildlife management moments of my lifetime.

drone use. I always remember it was kind of one of the more interesting wildlife management moments of my lifetime. 13 states, I mean, in one year, 13 states banned drones for hunting use. Western states. And also some states that are not hippie-dippy anti-hunting states. like some hard-hitting, Wyoming was one of the first, some hard-hitting conservative pro consumptive use states, Alaska, right? Like pro, not just like looking for any reason to screw with hunters, some, some like heavy forward thinking, game management, consumptive use states, right-wing leadership, right out of the gate. Right. And that's fair. No one had, no one waited to be like, well let's wait and see for 10 years if efficacy rates change. They just knew. And they did. Right. Well, and I mean I think the only devil's advocate I'd play there is it's like a, it's a different beast managing elk versus how many

crappies are in Minnesota, right? Like, so I mean, it's, it's a fair point, but I look at it and go, maybe, maybe this is a weird perspective, but everything that makes it easier. A lot of these guys who are like, no way, I don't want that. I don't want crossbows. I don't want to bait deer.

I take it right down the line. I don't want that, I don't want crossbows, I don't want to bait deer, take it right down the line, I don't want to sell cameras. The adoption rate, when that stuff becomes a little more affordable, a little more ubiquitous across the hunting population, these people who are against this stuff they don't understand often end up on the side of using it. Because, so if LiveScope was 150 bucks

and it took you five minutes to mount on your boat, all these guys would have it, right? And so- You think there's a haves and have nots component. Well, there is and there's just a component of just not, people not being familiar with it and like hearing about, you know, and so I think you have to play in the world of going, okay, this stuff exists, it's legal right now,

and it will be adopted by people who are against it if it comes to that. So kind of to your drone point, like if you believe that and I do, then you would have to make that decision. Do we proactively go, no? And I'm not on that side yet. I just, I feel like it's coming and it's going to be,

it's going to change regulations. I think that, I've mentioned this drone thing a couple of times, but out of fairness, I need to acknowledge that these are not analogous. Right. Like, you could look at sonar as being an evolution of sonar. We agreed what it was in the 70s,

is somehow we were on a trajectory of not regulating sonar, we agreed what it was in the 70s, that somehow we were on a trajectory of not regulating sonar. And then sonar, this isn't the answer I'm saying, like sonar advanced. What made the drone thing, what makes it imperfect as an analogy, is it really was sort of this this brand new, altogether new concept, right? It was like, if there had been some other, like the drones at first had extremely limited capabilities and you couldn't really picture where it would lead, right? Right. It might've had a different path,

but it was sort of like it emerged as an altogether new thing. And was sort of, you had an opportunity to like say yes or no. Right. In a way that perhaps even like cameras, the gradual increase in efficacy of cameras, and then they kind of became that it was cellular cameras.

Right? There was never a real clear inflection point right I would say that was a big leap yeah and the closest thing would be scouting from an airplane which they had already haggled about right right yeah that's a good point they had haggled about airplane use and it already said if you fly you can't hunt that day let me hit you guys another question? I want to set up with an observation of my own, um, very similar bit of technology. When I started fishing in Southeast Alaska, we would fish off

charts. Like as close as you can get to no detail, just it's like a, it's like an open ocean, portrayed on the chart. And then you have some soundings printed, um, in a sort of equal spacing. So you could tell 20 fathoms, six fathoms, 40 fathoms, whatever, no detail. It made fishing very challenging because there was always this feeling of a kind of randomness. Okay. I've now gotten to the point where I use Navionics data. My catch rate 100% went up. My understanding of the ocean and what's going on and my enjoyment of the experience went up hand in hand. Where it was like, oh wow,

I didn't know that that was like a really sharp hog back ridge. It would be like, in the old days, it'd be like, now and then you'll catch a blank, like over in that kind of area. Now I'm like, oh wow, they like to lay on the drop off point of a hogback ridge. And when you get there, get ready. Like, uh, efficacy up, understanding up, sort of like inspiration about the landscape. Oh, you could, it was just like, it was better, more fun, more educational.

Um, taking that and looking at it with live scopecope, do you feel that it's a, do you feel there's something similar at play? Is it like ultimately taking from the experience or is it adding to the experience? We'll start with Danny. So I'm gonna give two things here, right? So I've obviously, you know, like I love LiveScope. I love to fish with it.

I like how I can be selective in which fish I catch. You know, if I'm targeting eater fish, for example, I can target eater fish. I don't catch big fish. I don't catch small fish. I don't catch, you know, accidentally catch muskies. Back in the day when we, you know, rig leeches and creek chubs, we'd catch whatever would bite it, and it would swallow the hook every time. Like, I feel like I can actually fish more efficiently, but also more, you know, ethically, so to speak, with, with the fish fishing with that technology. I can learn about what's on the bottom.

I've sat on Mille Lacs Lake in the winter time and watched the migration of walleyes as they come and go off those flats morning and night. And it's like, I've just learned so much about fish behavior and what they do. And that's where like, if, you know, like using it in that matter, or matter, it is so beneficial to an angler. You learn so much, I enjoy the experience more. I'm able to bring my daughters, they're able to see the fish moving around. And if anything gives you hope, you don't always catch them, but at least you can see them down there, right? But then also from like an industry standpoint, right?

And the crossbow thing here is, is a prime example and hits me, hits me because I'm a whitetail guy, right? And, you know, with forward facing sonar, I mean, the one great benefit it also brings, not only understanding fisheries, but look at what it brings to the industry as far as dollars go, right? So now we've got all these baits aimed at forward facing sonar. You can go buy a new Berkeley power switch and it's got the FFS forward facing sonar logo right on that bait letting the angler know it's forward facing sonar.

So it's created new industries within fishing. There's a new fishing line called Forward. Diowa makes live scope rods that are, you know, $1,200 rods you can use for live scoping. So like, you bring all this new money to the industry, like Crossbows did, and you know, a lot of times if that money can go back into the industry or keep the industry going, especially coming right out of COVID with all the new anglers we have, I mean, there is a lot of like fringe benefits you don't necessarily speak of that not only add benefits to when you're out on the water, but benefits to the fishing industry in general. They're subject to what's the fish? And Dingle Johnson, is that technology hit by Dingle Johnson tech? The technology wouldn't be, but a lot of the other stuff would be. The hardware is not hit by Dingle Johnson tech? The technology wouldn't be but a lot of the other stuff would be. The hardware is not hit by Dingle Johnson? Yep.

Reno electronics are exempt. What? Yeah man. Why is that? Dude, boat gas isn't exempt. Right, yeah. So it was a navigational tool when that when DJ was was getting started so it hasn't been modified. Oh they need to get in there and hit that. How much is a how much is a what are we talking about? We never established how much does it cost to get your boat set up? I mean a live scope system is gonna be $16.99 retail and then you know a screen that you'd use with it you're looking at anywhere from let's just say 800 bucks on up depending on what size you had you

know like when I first started it's's a lot of seven inch units. Now we're sending, selling a lot of 10 inch screens. So you're going to be, you know, about three grand, let's say to be all in. Okay. Does it improve or detract from the experience? Yeah. So I, I don't want to come off as like, I just hate this technology because student of angling,

fishing my whole life, this is the most insane, coolest thing ever to happen in fishing. Really? Oh, all the, like it fundamentally changes it. Like what's out there. Oh, I know what's out there. There's a big wall. You see it, right?

Like, so it just, it changes things. So it is really cool. So you brought up the great points, Steve, of the GPS technology, like all of the other tech is really, and that's really the foundation of a lot of it. Right. So if I can't easily navigate to these locations, it will likely be spots to hold fish, right? Like it forward facing sonar.

Isn't that great if you've got, you know, just a paper map that doesn't show you much. Like if you're not going to go to habitats. Right? So, so the map is, is huge. And talking to, you know, I was talking to Al Linder about some of the big moments in his career in fishing. And one that I thought was most interesting is he was like big outboards, man, like bigger boats, bigger outboards. When we could go out on Lake Erie, when we could go out in the middle of Mille Lacs lake, he's like, that changed fishing.

You know, like that was a big moment in changing fishing and that's marine electronics often get picked on, but that, that was a huge deal. You brought up outboards earlier. Right. And this, and then the other, you know, fundamental shift was mapping and being able

to navigate, you know, especially big bodies of water, fine spots in the middle then the other, you know, fundamental shift was mapping and being able to navigate, you know, especially big bodies of water, fine spots in the middle of the lake, traverse Canadian shield waters now that, you know, spinning the map around, everything looks the same, you know, like, it's pretty cool. So technology absolutely adds to the, it can add to the experience. Yeah, absolutely.

So I guess how much, how easy do you want it to be and how much do you value some of those intangibles that are the mystery, the difficulty in fishing. And that's kind of, I think what we want to measure to some degree is how much value is there in the mystery, those intangibles. And those are some of the things I think we need to consider. Uh, let's say this isn't a question. It's just something to respond to. Just a thing to muse on.

Let's say I developed some crazy technology where I could, uh, I also didn't have some technology where I had, I could put a map in front of you. And I could be like, every elk at all times is on this map. Um, and I went to a body man I'm like check this out right most dudes are gonna be like, let me look at that man Right, but then I come and be like I'm gonna sell this map anyone that wants it Then people are gonna be like I don't think you should do that Yeah, but I think a lot of guys would want to peek at the map If they could peek at it secretly Right, so there is a point at which

Like if we go to that extreme and I some people don't like extremes on debating, but I i'm a big fan of extremes when debating um Most people would agree That if we could do that if I could show you a map and every elk in existence on that mountain is on that map. Or just the 360 bull is on that map. He's always on there. You know, right where he is at all times.

I think that you'd have 90, whatever the hell, 80, 90% of people would be like, that's just going too far. And I would go like, but think of how educational it would be to understand how elk use the mountain. That's all the big bulls. Isn't it cool? You can see exactly where they like to lay, when they move, when they spook, where they go, what they eat, how educational.

And people would say, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but. So there's like, there is an extreme. I don't know how to put that into a question, Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but so there's like there is an extreme um I don't know how to put that into a question, but This can't be this can't be that It's like it can't be that all mysteries are revealed right and you know like it's not obviously And I know one thing people like to say is using live scope is like spotlight and whitetails or spotlight

and deer. Okay. And although you can find the fish quicker, they still have to react, right? And if anybody's tried to catch a walleye on Leech Lake as of recent, you'll know real quick that the fish start to learn about live scope and boats following them around. And where before you used to be able to maybe make a 40 foot cast at a walleye, you now

have to try to make a 80, 100 foot cast. Like, you know what I mean? And so, like the fish still has to react and bite that bait. I've thrown my Ned Rig at a walleye hundreds of times where they don't bite and you just got to keep moving on. So even if sometimes you know where the fish are, doesn't necessarily, you know, mean you're going to catch them all the time, you know?

And obviously muskies are going to be a little bit different. I feel like they're always going to be maybe an exception. There's other species that are too, but like, you know, knowing exactly where that bull is and then, you know, going with a long range rifle or something, like it's, it's, it's similar, but different, I guess, just like spotlighting a deer.

Like once you spotlight the deer, like the deer doesn't have any choice there. Like the fish is making the choice to still react, bite the bait. You still got to make your cast within that 20 foot or 20 degree cone angle, you know? I got kind of an example. Chester and I fished a tournament on Fresno here in Montana a few years ago. And everyone was kind of in this one part of the lake and we, we motored up in this part of the lake that was super stained, like two, three inches of this. And we started marking a bunch of fish, but there were no one fish in there. So we dropped, dropped down to Megalife and we figured out if we could get a bunch of fish, but there were no one fish in there. So we dropped, dropped down to mega live and we figured out if we're, if you drop, we were drop shot and these wall eyes.

And if you put it five inches from them, you weren't catching them. But if you were to place it right on their nose, you could catch them pretty much every time. And that's like an example where if I, we didn't have that we end up taking like seventh in that tournament and Ever like a lot of people struggled But we just figured out this one little thing in the super stained water Where if we didn't have live imaging like You would never have caught those fish

But we were just able to like really sharp shoot and like pinpoint these fish using that technology. And we like ended up catching a bunch, but I, um, I was pretty confident where if we tried to do that, like you just had to put it right on their nose. It was getting you fish.

You otherwise would have never got it. Never caught those fish. Yeah. Well, last, uh, you want to address that one? Nothing, I don't know what to address. You want to comment on that one? I mean, yeah, you just get this precision accuracy to your point that just wasn't possible. Back to the muskie thing, that's not the spotlighting comment or whatever.

That's what muskie guys call it. They call it road hunting, spotlight and sharpshooting. Like guys who do it. The guys who do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. And so this is, if you guys are familiar with the concept of the tragedy of the commons as well, like this really applies in many of these, these cases where, um, and it's quite interesting, like it back to the musky world, like, uh, on leech lake, this has gotten to be a hot topic. So all these guides are out there. They know like, this is bad.

Like what we're doing out here, like bad. We should not be catching this many fish. But if I don't do this, I'm not going to catch nearly as many. So if I decide, you know what, I'm going to take the high road. I'm going to just go fish traditionally and not do this. But you know what, the guy who's 20 years old, really good with tech just buys this stuff, he can start guiding tomorrow and he's going to kick his ass. The guys who've been doing it for 30 years. So they're just caught in this rut and saying, Hey, we need, we need help.

We need help stopping ourselves from doing this. So it's a really interesting situation that we're, we're in with that. There was a famous buffalo hide hunter and he observed when he was down in the, I think he was in the Texas panhandle. He knew what they were doing, that they were pushing the animals to extinction. And he would say, sometimes I get so disgusted

and I'd be like, I can't do it anymore. But he said you'd wake up and off in the distance. He's like, someone's doing it. It's gonna happen no matter what, you know. Yep. That's it. All right, the last question. And everybody will go around the room. Everybody can have, you can have, do two things. You have a final thought if you want, but you also got a crystal ball. Uh, what's the fair number? 10 years, 20 years, 10 years, 10 years, where are we sitting? Just kind of like, you know, where are we sitting on the debate in 10 years? What happened in 10 years?

What will have happened? Um, as we, as we weigh this all out. Uh, so a final thought, if you got one and then crystal ball it. Ten years down the road I would expect to see blank. Yeah. So I guess final thought I'll start with that. Obviously, you know, obviously I think my big perspective on it is, you know, there's always going to be the two groups. The people that like it, the people that don't, people kind of fall in the middle. Doesn't necessarily matter what we decide as far as regulation or whatever else,

like it's still gonna be those groups, you know? And that's where I say, like, as long as we're making decisions based on the science, based on, you know, actual facts and what's going on versus just on emotion and whatnot, I think we'll be in a good spot. You know, the one bad thing, and Jeremy alluded to this a little bit, is like right now how we're getting those facts isn't necessarily like the most effective way, right? So right now we're getting a lot of those facts through Creel surveys. Okay. You know, and to some degree, there's probably some truth to them. And it's pointing out that

that top group is the group that's catching the fish, doing most of the harvest, that kind of stuff. And everybody else is still kind of the same, right? We're not really showing that much, or if any, increase in catch of fish or any of that kind of stuff. You know, so right now we're showing like really it's not having an effect is basically it. But you know, how are we getting these creel surveys? Are they doing them at the correct times? Are the musky guys really coming off the boat access at noon? No, they're coming off in the middle of the night or you know what I mean before the sun comes up, whatever else. And are we actually hitting those guys that are harvesting a lot of the fish, right?

So I think there's a little bit of a flaw in how we're getting that data, but just making sure that we are using good data and good information when we make those decisions. I think that's the most important because it does have a big impact on the industry. We are bringing a lot to the industry and a lot to the upcoming generation because of the technology. So 10 years down the road, where are we going to be? Well, I mean, I've been in this business now for 10 years, been with Garmin for 10 years.

And when I started, we were using 2D sonar. Right now we're using LiveScope. I can see fish 200 feet away in live time. So, I mean, who knows what's coming, right? And we're sitting here and we're debating what's happening right now. But like, you know And we're sitting here and we're debating what's happening right now. But like, you know, we're all middle-aged guys, right? And we grew up in a time where there was no cell phones, there wasn't really internet and all that kind of stuff, and now look what we have,

right? And so, this generation of anglers that's coming up right now, like with the new Bassmaster Classic angler being young and a lot of young guns kind of in the tournament series and the content game, right? Like they're going to drive that technology, I think, further and further and further. And so what we should be looking at, maybe concerned about talking about is what's coming more so too versus what we got going on right now. So in 10 years, I mean, who knows? Good point. And Hey, we, like, we can't wait for 25 years to figure out

if we have an effect on bluegills, right? We need to figure out that right now. So let's figure it out. Let's make good decisions. Let's work together. Let's drive the industry. Let's continue to get these anglers. You know, we added almost a million youth anglers to the industry last year, let's keep doing that,

let's use the technology with them, but use it in the correct ways. Train ethics, you know, like a lot of it really comes down to the anglers, like deer hunting, like you can do a lot of things that you maybe shouldn't, you know, but where does that start? That starts with like the values and the ethics that we have as fishermen and outdoorsmen. 10-4. So, Jeremy? Well, I guess to crystal ball it, I think there's going to have to be some examples of fishery crashing or really, you know, showing like, oh boy, there's a strong correlation between this use before we decide that we're going to be

proactive on managing technology for the most part. Um, and it'll be a reactive management strategy going forward would, would be my guess, at least in the state of Minnesota where I can speak to. But, uh, I think technology is not going to slow down. I think we're going to pursue this idea that

we want to make the fishing experience easier, more comfortable. We want to improve catch rates. we want to make, you know, I mean, that's just that's just where it's going. So I don't see that like, right? That's, that's where it's headed. So I'm not saying that's bad, but I'm just saying that trend will continue. Yeah, that trend will continue. Yeah, man. Yeah, I, I use live imaging and I like using it. It's fun. Um, Some fisheries I don't use it because it just Like you guys were talking like there's there's times when it's helpful and other times it doesn't matter And I'm the type of guy who maybe keeps a limit of walleye a year, I don't keep a lot of fish

If it went away tomorrow I'd still be out there fishing and I don't think it'd make a big difference in my life. Got it. You'd fish, you wouldn't change, you wouldn't fish less days. Nope. 100%. No. Corinne? Well I don't really have enough experience with any of this, but one thing stuck in my head from talking to you guys before the show, before you came out here, which was really again focusing on, and this is what I can't not think about. The generation that's coming up with tech and if that's just going to be, if we won't get ahead of that. So I know we touched on that a bit today, but that, you know, in five, 10 plus years, the generation now, your kids age, you know, what they're used to and what

they're going to be clamoring for and if we're really going to set regulations in advance of that and potentially with technology even developing faster, better, that's just the one thing that's in my mind. So not sure if we'll react fast enough. Tony, I feel like when Jeremy's talking about the musky guide thing and feeling the pressure to compete against the 20 year old, who's going to use it without any, no compunction at all.

He's just like, I'm going to go. This feels just like how deer baiting is sort of a social contagion, where you're like, I don't wanna do it, but now my neighbor's doing it, and all my deer disappeared on opener, and I want my kids to get one. And so I just think we have to look at this and go,

it's gonna be pretty widespread adoption, I think. And what kind of just occurred to me while you guys were talking is, so we live, we're all kind of Minnesota boys. We, we live in this world and know these lakes and kind of that's the filter, which we kind of view it through. But I was like in my head, I'm like, imagine if

you had like a selfie stick kind of thing with a little portable version of this and these fly fishermen out here could walk up to a hole, stick it in there, look at their phone and go. Dude, they'd be doing it. Right. But, right. So a hundred percent people would do it. But that would be a catalyst for I think that people would go, this is a use case. That's too far for me. So if you're really close to the muskie issue, this is like, if you really appreciate that

opportunity, like this is a hot button thing right now, because you can see that that specific use case is probably going to be trouble at some point or it, or already is it's like a lot muddier when you're talking like grand scheme of things, panfish populations, walleyes, whatever. But I tend to err on the side, like Danny, you're, you have like a pretty charitable, charitable

view of the average fisherman. Like, well, we got to train them in ethics and this and I'm, I think about a lot of the old timey walleye guys. I know I'm like, you give them a chance to put more fish in the boat. They're going to do it. Like they're not going to, they're not going to

think about that for a second. And so I think we have to operate in that world. So 10 years down the road, crystal ball on it, I feel like we'll probably see some level of reduction in opportunities. If that's just limits or if it's shortened season or something like that. I think we have to consider that because I could see that like, I believe that's probably coming. I'm still on the fence.

I'm nowhere like I'm in the same place. I was when I walked in the room. Well, crystal ball it. I mean, the cat's out of the bag. It ain't going anywhere. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think I think you're going to have a real hard time disallowing the technology other than in very specific cases like Montana paddlefish, where it's like a set number of anglers on a short stretch of river that can be monitored. I, I, I just, I don't think anybody's going to be like, no, you like, you can

never, I don't know. I mean, it's there. I I'm, I'm leery of putting the The reason I'm leery of putting it on my boat now, because you'll watch it, is because my boys will pay attention to that, to the exclusion of everything else. Yeah. Like, which is annoying. That's true. When I introduced ice fishing with a camera, my older boy, if you don't got the camera, he's less interested in going. Right. Um, my older boy, if you don't got the camera, he's less interested in going. Right. Right.

He loves it. Uh, and he'll, he would sit there for three hours in a tent watching that screen glued, um, but that's different. That's parenting. That's not, that's that's parenting. That's not regulation. Totally. When I crystal ball it, just to stick to the pure crystal ball.

What if I Chris the ball and I really had like bet money on it, I would bet that you will see a noticeable, you would see a noticeable increase in. Restrictions. Meaning just as we can point to, uh, just as we can point to, just as we can point to like paddlefish, snagging, whatever. I think that you'll have, in 10 years, I think you'll have more examples

of a fishery for perhaps an imperiled, low fecundity fish, whatever. I think that you'll have some instances where people find that a resource is pretty limited. It's really reliant on low efficacy and it might be that rather than shutting off the fishery, you'd have select instances where you decided to control the technology. I think that like, I would bet on seeing a handful of more examples in a place like, Minnesota where there's so many lakes you could have like forward-basing free lakes

Just like you know I don't know I don't know what form it'll take when I crystal ball it But I think that we'll have instead of us keep saying paddlefish paddlefish paddlefish I think we'll be able to go paddlefish, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, and we'll have more examples. With all that said, I have to be totally fair, with all that said, if you showed up in my fish shack, and you said, no dude, here it all is, let's hook it up, I would be like, dude, let's, like, I would say, let's go. Now, to continue that thought, at the end of the day, depending on what happened, at the end of the day, I might, I might have, I would say, let's go now to continue that thought at the end of the day, at the end, depending on what happened at the end of the day, I might, I might've, I might also say that was amazing. You shouldn't be allowed to do that.

I had, let me give you just a, like a sort of a closing thought from Phil's wave me off. I keep it quick. You can hunt coyotes with thermals and Instead of living you can hunt coyotes with thermals We were out thermal hunting during deer season one time Okay, it's deer season, but we're out at night thermal hunting coyotes and it occurred to me. I'm like dude. We ain't breaking the law But there's some hot Intel, some hot Intel coming my way. Especially if you were coyote hunting at five o'clock in the morning.

That's what we were. We were at the tail end, but I just said, it just occurred to me like, dude, I could be like, I'm coyote hunting, bro. And could have had a feeling like, yeah, I could see someone saying that you can't deer hunt after you coyote hunt with thermals. Right. All right. Thanks guys for coming out, man. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

I really appreciate you coming out and, um, and, uh, and, and kicking this all around. Um, it's a good conversation. It's a great conversation. Yeah. It's interesting. It's one of those things that makes everybody a little smarter to think about. Yep.

Um, all right. Thanks. Thanks again to our guests, Danny, Jeremy. Thanks man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Now available, the all new Velps carbon fiber bugle tube. Is this the best bugle tube ever? Well, in order to be so, it would have to sound the best, be the lightest, be the loudest,

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