The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 723: Dangerous Game

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Morgan Potter, Seth Morris, Austin "Chilly" Chleborad, Randall Williams, Phil Taylor, and Corinne Schneider.  Topics Discussed: An Australian’s blatant refusal to perform the American accent; the book “Thunder Without Rain”; how Steve really wants to get charged by a Cape buffalo in Tanzania; the full year of the Roosevelt Safari; Chilly’s New Zealand tar hunt; when you don’t notice that a gator’s bitten your arm; a man-eating croc; shooting 'em in the smile; when the perfect shot is through the shoulder bone; surviving a black mamba bite; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. He was accusing me of being always sick. I'm like, you are always sick. Seth's always sick. He's confusing. He's getting like, he's confusing who got sick. I'm sick like once every two years. Sickly Seth is always sick.

I'm not. Yeah, like I know you did not be ill. An ill person. I'm not an ill person. You have a pretty robust immune system. I have allergies. It's a bad year for me. Can the show already be started? I've been rolling for two minutes. Okay, can you make sure it starts with clarifying that sickly Seth? This is not true.

That sickly Seth is always sick. I'm not always sick. I feel like you're gonna get sick in Alaska. I was just sick. I just know the opposite to be true. He's over here sniffling right now. I know. What are you sniffling about? He's probably got allergies because of pollen isn't he? Allergies. No, it is. The pollen's bad this year.

Yeah. I think that would be rolled under sickly. Yeah. No. Yeah. Infirm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is general infirmity.

Our friend Morgan Potter's here. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. It's good to be back. But by the time you're listening to this, so because of, because of things in this world that I hate, um, like what I think it's a long list. That's a long list. I'm only going to focus on one thing I hate. Okay.

No, I'm only going to focus on one thing I hate. Okay. In my opinion, it should just be that like, in my opinion, it should just be that this is effectively live. The podcast. Yeah. Like, as soon as it's done, it just, it just, whop. Yeah. And sometimes there'd be three shows in a week.

Sometimes there'd be no shows in a week. It'd just be like, FWOP! What do we think, Phil? Well, I've talked with Corinne about this, and I actually agree with Steve. I would love it if we could do something like that. We're just beholden to many agreements and deals with people and companies, and there's a lot of moving parts of the listeners. Of course, incredible companies.

Phenomenal companies. FWOP! That's the noise. That's what it is. The show, they would change the show's name to FWOP! Because that's what it would be like, Fwop! That's the noise. That's what it is. The show, I would change the show's name to Fwop, because that's what it would be like. Fwop! That sounds like something else.

We won't go there. By the time you're listening to this, for like stupid, for like stupid reasons that I can't even begin to like understand, let alone explain. I've had it explained to me 20 times. I still don't understand it. You know, and, um, do we talk about this recently in life aquatic? Oh, great. Steve Zizou.

Perhaps. Yeah. One of the top movies ever made. Fantastic. It's like up there with big Lebowski. Oh, definitely. Um, someone's explaining something to his character, Bill up there with Big Lebowski. Oh definitely. Someone's explaining something to his character, Bill Murray's character, and he says, I don't understand that but it sounds like bullshit.

I ran into Bill Murray in an elevator once. I was working at a-production or our office was in a post-production studio Steve your phone your phones ringing. No, it's not How can you guys hear that? Ran into Bill Marion in an elevator on the same day. I forget how many years ago this was that he was on the cover was it Vogue or Another publication he was on the cover, was it Vogue? Or another publication he was on the cover of it. And I was holding that magazine while I stepped into an elevator together with him. We were both there and I just kind of... Was he cold? Did you say anything?

No, he was cold. No, I just looked at him and I like slowly raised the magazine cover in front of my face so that he was staring at himself. And then we had a little chuckle and then went our separate ways. That was pretty fun. That was my Bill Murray encounter. He's one of the ones that I like, you want to hope he's cool. Yeah. In like in the wild, you know, I see probably Morgan Potter he's an Australian as you can tell hey do it do for us your American accent. No, I can't do it What uh, oh, it's bad. No, I hear it. No, I can't do it Refuse what part of the country is your we can all do like Australian for a cell

I've heard a couple of the Australians earlier before you walked in this door. Well, it was Kiwi actually not, not so great. You guys should probably refrain from that. Do him, goof on him. That's not a knife. See, you've got a lot of material. I mean, I have a deal with my children that when they can do, cause you know, they've grown up here, um, when they can do a passable Australian accent, I'll like give them a day off school, get them ice cream, whatever they want.

They've failed to, uh, maybe Randall could give them some pointers. Yeah. Goof on him a minute, Randall. Oh, now you're putting me on the spot. And we'll just do that. That's not annoying. This used to be a penal colony.

That's no point. I see. Shaming him. Yeah. No rules. We did this with southerners one time and the southerners would do their northern accent for us. Yeah.

And, and then, but we were too, we wouldn't do our Southern accent for them. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not doing that. No, I'm, I, I, when they do their Northern accent, they do everybody as Wisconsin. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh yeah. Two plays, two plays per salmon. That's how they do it. Like a Yankee. They're like, well, do your Southern for me. And I'm like, I'm not doing my Southern for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't know where to begin. I do. I love a good regional accent though. You know, Australia doesn't really have that. So I like that America has like regional variation. I appreciate that a lot, but- Well, do one, do it. Just do a quick one. No, I can't. When you're telling your stories, when you're telling stories to friends back home

and you have an American talking, do you do it in Australian? Sometimes. If I've been drinking, it's a little early for that. If I've been drinking sometimes- stories to friends back home and you have an American talking, I do it sometimes if I've been drinking. It's a little early for that. If I've been drinking sometimes American, I just can't. I just know I flat Seth. Get him. Yeah, it was something. I get my haircut at VIP here, right here close. Oh yeah. And I'm in there getting my haircut and kind of like, if he's listening with all due respect,

kind of like a crazy looking guy walks in, just looks like he's been camping a long time. Yeah. And not crazy, but just looks like he's been a long camp, hot, a long, hot camping trip. Yeah. And he comes in and he asks if he can get a, a quick trim. Yeah. And he's clearly Australian. So he sits down and there's two guys, Kevin and Jake, and Kevin's cutting my hair and Jake is waiting for his next guy. And he's like, well, if it's quick, I'll do it. So you ask them, where's the accent from? And he says, Australia. And Jake asks them, what, like the same thing I would have done. Is there any

crocodiles nearby? To which he points out that those are well north of him. And then that those are well north of him. Yeah. And then he asked him what he does for fun. Yeah. And the guy says, well, we hunt a lot of pigs. And then I kind of perk up at this. Yeah. And all of a sudden he goes, are you the guy from meat eater?

Oh, that's funny. I thought I was the only one. No, he was in town for work. Oh really? Yeah. Interesting. He was in town for work. Two or three, he said he's funny. I thought I was the only one. No, he was in town for work. Oh really? He's in town for work. He said he's here. I didn't catch what he was working on, but he's sent here and he's got two, three months of stuff he's got to do. I'll bet it's mining or something. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. I shouldn't say I'm sure, but whatever it was, it looks hot.

Yeah, I'll bet. He came in looking hot. Yeah, mining checks out. By the time you're listening to this, for reasons I cannot explain, I will be with Morgan Potter, who's sitting here right now. We will be like a, like an alternate universe. We will be in Tanzania hunting for Cape Buffalo. If you want to hear how, if you want to reflect back on how all this came to be, go back to episode four, four six want to reflect back on how all this came to be, go back to episode 446, which is called, when an African Cape buffalo beats your butt.

Did we call that? Yeah. We didn't call it beats your ass, beats your butt. Yeah. Because buffalo saying, you know, when an African Cape buffalo beats your butt. So it was just for alliteration purposes. Yeah. I think we went back and forth buffalo beats your butt. So he was just for alliteration purposes. Yeah, I got nothing to do with clean up. I think we went back and forth between ass and

butt. Nothing to do with cleaning her up. So we're going to come around and, and, and talk about that in a, in a little bit. I'm, dude, I'm getting excited. Oh, me too. I just read a whole book about Cape Buffalo that wound up oddly not being about

Cape Buffalo. Which one? It's happening right now. I am ex, yeah, no, it's true. Yeah. What if by the time this comes out, I'm not excited. Yeah. You're like, this sucks. And then I'm listening to this and I'm like, but that's not true.

You have to re-record it. No, there's a low chance, low risk of that, I would say very low risk. Um, what's the book that is not about Kate Buffalo that purports to be? Now it's by the late writer. So we had a long time ago had on a writer, Thomas MacIntyre. Oh yeah, I know him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, he passed away.

I did know that. I didn't know that. I was talking about, I was telling Cren to get him back on the show. Oh dear. And then it turns out he had passed away. Oh yeah. Not terribly old. Yeah. No, not terribly old. Um, yeah, poor guy. It's thunder without rain. Ah, I have, I've read it a long time ago. But you know how, um, well, no, no, no, no. Cause it only came out a year ago.

Oh really? Yeah. Thunder without rain. Maybe I had it. It came out posthumously. Ah, okay. Okay. Is it like an anthology, like a collection of stories?

Nope, nope, nope, nope. All original material. But it's just like how Brodegon's trout fishing in America isn't about trout fishing in America. Gotcha. It's just really disappointing. There's a great line about trout fishing. Is it about love? Is it like a romance? No, no, no, no, no. No, it's a non-fiction book. He just now and then, and I can say this because he's, you know, no longer with us, for, for, for sometimes for like 75 pages, he'll forget that it's about Kate Buffalo.

Yeah. Yeah. And he'll be just talking about whatever, or is it more like about like he does a big, so he at one point feels the need to sort of talk about movies that might tangentially involve Kate Buffalo. So he spends a lot of time on like, like a lot of, of his generation that were interested in Africa. They're very interested in Hemingway. Oh yeah. No, no doubt. So rather than talk about Hemingway's Gotcha. Or, uh, out of Africa.

He has to talk about that. So then he does a mega bio on like everyone down to the financiers. Oh, as opposed to the character that it was based on. He is like talking about the film. He alludes to them, but he forgets that he's, he forgets the hook. Right. And so then he's talking about the cinematographers and whatnot and kind of just doesn't. And just for long stretches of time, forgets about the subject at hand. But then now and then comes back to it in remarkable fashion.

Yep. Yeah. Um. Sounds familiar. I think I've flicked through this book. Yes. But I don't write that way. I don't write that way. His writing style is kind of unique. I think I've flicked through this book and I, as I recall, there was a good chunk of it dedicated to like the, uh, like the evolutionary history of Cape Buffalo and their relationship with

other Bovids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was the part I liked. And here's the deal. If I was just sitting down looking to read a book, I would like it, but I was sitting down looking to like, get a big load of Cape Buffalo info rather than reading the Wikipedia page, which I've read twice for the cinematographers of, uh, yeah. And so, so like my needs as a reader are not being adequately met by the book. My needs as a cinephile.

Yep. Totally checking that has been satisfied. I was reading it to cram for our trip. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, uh, I can recommend some other reading, but yeah. You know, the thing about Cape Buffalo is I was kind of, you know, I read Hemingway and all that stuff.

I mean, I've read, you know, a huge amount of literature and nonfiction related to African hunting, but I think nothing can kind of adequately prepare you for like seeing your first one. Oh, yeah. It's so cool. I still remember the first one I ever saw and I just being like, that's the coolest thing. I want to get charged bad, man. You say that now.

I've been looking at a lot of videos. My body just sent me a video of some guys getting beat up by one the other day. I'll tell you the crew that's going to be with, he does not want to get charged. That's why I wanted to actually get hit though. Seth and I will be you the crew that's going to be with you does not want to get charged. That's why I wanted to actually get hit though. Seth and I will be on the side. What is your, if you had to like, if you had to, I mean, other than just the, the ferocity of the animal from those charge videos, what would be your kind of like main takeaway as far as just like how it all goes down?

Just that. Yeah. Cause picture that is, I don't necessarily want to get charged, but like, I was talking to my buddy yesterday, we were sitting in my office and my buddies haunted him a couple of times. Yep. Um, and they had a instance, no charge, but they got, they were, they were, he said the trackers are tracking.

Yep. And all of a sudden he, a guy holds his hand up and touches his ear and they've been, he said they've been following him for a good part of a day. And they can hear somehow their trajectory on the track, like for whatever reason, something out ahead of them had bumped them or something. Gotcha. So he said, they're going and they're, they're following the trail, but all of a sudden you can hear them and they're coming at a good clip. Like something just happened and they're coming.

Yep. And so he says they're way off and then they're like in their lap. Right. Yep. And, and shoots one at 30 yards. Nice. Good range to shoot one at. In their lap.

Yeah. So then you're like, he's like that, like that scratch the itch. Oh, I'll bet. Cause he's like, I was worried that it would be that like, Oh, I could, you know, through the brush, I could kind of make out like a shoulder blade and someone's saying, go, go, go, give it to it. Yeah. And then you shoot and it's, and it's dead.

You never like, you never were in its presence. And he felt like he was so happy to have it. They were like there. Yeah, it was exciting. Yeah, you got that close up encounter without the sort of, yeah, absolutely trying to kill you aspect of it. Yeah, I think.

He said, yeah, he said they were oblivious to their presence. But still, he's like, you can still just like feel it. Yeah. I think he said, yeah, they were, he said they were oblivious to their presence, right? But still he's like, you could still just like, like feel it. Yeah. Feel the intensity of being that close to them. Yeah. I mean, that's what that's kind of what I endeavor to do on, on safari is, is get people a number of those kind of like interactions, whether you end up shooting one, um, you know, whether it's a, you know, you just kind of get up on a herd to just get a, get a look at what's in there. Um, we typically don't shoot from herds if we can avoid it, but yeah, just having that, that experience of being close to them, um, is definitely, it's a big part of it.

Um, the charge piece is far less desirable. No, I know, I know I picked that up. No, I know, I know, I picked that up. No, for sure, for sure. No, but look, I'm not gonna pretend. I've had like little mix-ups with like minor mix-ups with grizzly bears up close, and I wouldn't give away as much as you try to avoid it. As much as you try to avoid it, in hindsight,

I wouldn't sacrifice any of those experiences in hindsight. No, for sure. And I'm not going to pretend like the prospect of a charge isn't part of the appeal of hunting Cape buffalo. You know, it's, of course it is. It's how many grizzly, how many grizzly bear attack people have we interviewed? And when I say to them, there's my two favorite questions in the world. As a person that has wild pig problems, I say, if you could just wave a magic wand and all the wild pigs would be gone, would you wave it?

They always say, no, not all of them. Yeah. And then people like, do you wish it wouldn't have happened? And people have a hard time saying they wish it wouldn't have happened. The survivors have a hard time saying they're like, eh, it's who I am now.

It's, it's an impressive. Because they are survivors. Yeah, for sure. But it is, it's who I am now. It's, it's an impressive. Because they are survivors. Yeah, for sure. But it is, it's a good point, Phil. Because they're here with us. Yeah. I mean, it's a way, it's, it's a, like a time and a place where you feel something that I

think outside of certain other, like walks of life, like being maybe a firefighter or a cop or something like that, you get a kind of range of what's a cop. Yeah. I mean, other than those sort of, or car that's more English, isn't it? File. Car. I mean, we can go back.

File. Fight. I'm sorry. Yeah. Like a three year old, a fire fighter. No, no. So outside of sort of those, that narrow range of professions, you get a, um, you know, a sort of a series of emotions and feelings that you just not really going to get elsewhere in, in day-to-day life. And I think that's the appeal. Yeah.

It's, I mean, that's part of the appeal. And then that does, it leaves like an indelible mark on you, you know, it kind of changes your perspective on stuff. How many times in your career have you felt, like to whatever degree something actually happened, how many times in your career have you felt like a threat from Kate Buffalo? A threat?

Well, there's certainly been times, um, you know, I used to hunt and I still do hunt in the Cape Buffalo and the Montane forests of Northern Tanzania. It's very high elevation kind of these, these mountains that come out of the rift valley and it's very dense vegetation. It's um, you know, almost like you could, uh, you know, the layman's to be caught like almost like jungle. And you do inevitably get quite close to them in there either deliberately or, or by accident, you'll bump into herds in this kind of very, very dense type stuff. And you'll have situations where cows with calves and that will kind of come out and,

and like bluff charge you or sort of like run in your direction. Um, and then, uh, you know, a Buffalo herd, sometimes they'll sort of circle up and like move a little closer to you, particularly in the evenings. Um, you know, as part of sort of like a defensive posture that they kind of create. Um, so I've certainly been intimidated by Cape Buffalo a lot, but times where I could say that I was genuinely at risk of like serious injury or death, um, probably less than 10, more than five.

How many years? 15. So we got a 33% chance. Well, no, cause you're doing a bunch of times every year. Yeah, I'm doing a lot of, doing a lot of trips a year. It's not one, not one trip a year. It's not that lucrative. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, you know, so coming back to your charge videos, my, my

kind of takeaway from them is a lot of them have a little more chaos than, than I would typically want to see particularly if I was running the deal. Um, but you know, everyone can sort of armchair quarterback these things. But the other one is just how difficult it is to adequately prepare yourself for that moment. Like even as a professional hunter, how difficult it, difficult it is to override. how difficult it is to override like the natural brain chemistry impulses that you get under that kind of stress. Like it's just, I look at the guy's body language. I look at like how they, like what they're doing. And I can just see, cause I've been in that situation,

I could just feel like what they're feeling, you know? Yeah. And to me, it's like a mixture of, like, you get this huge rush of adrenaline, right? But you also get like this fight or flight thing. And I think what happens is there's a part of your brain that like looks at the size and power of the thing and is like, fights off the table. It's a flight. This is a flight deal. After careful analysis. Yeah, careful analysis. I've decided that this is a flight deal. After careful analysis. Yeah, careful analysis. I've decided that this is a flight deal.

But the reality of it is you have to override that because you're really your best and pretty much only chance of survival with, you know, some exceptions is to just stand as still as you can and make a serviceable shot that's going to, that's going to knock that thing down or turn it. Cause running, you're just going to get flattened. Yeah.

You're going to get flattened and trying to dodge too. They've got incredible ability to sort of re like readjust their course. And they got hooks. They got hooks. Yeah. So he's got, he's got, you know, whatever 36, 40 inches of 40 inches of spread of reach, which, you know, if he moves his neck, he can sort of rapidly readjust that to where they'll grab

you and they get you with those hooks. That's what kills you. Push up, get surf man. Dirt rides off on its back. Yeah. Yeah. There was one recently where a guy was like kind of flicked up and on its back.

I saw a video of that. It's, yeah, it's rough. But I mean, yeah, again, I can sit here and say all these things, but in the moment it's tough, really tough. Now available, the all new Belps carbon fiber Beagle Tube. Is this the best Beagle Tube ever? Well, in order to be so, it would have to sound the best, be the lightest, be the loudest, be easy to run, be silent when moving through the brush, be the most durable, and it would have to be made out

of the best materials available. Well check, check, check and check. This tube checks all of those boxes. Oh yeah, and it's a beautiful work of art. The Phelps carbon fiber Beagle tube is light, quiet, loud, and absolutely lethal. Go check out the all new Phelps carbon fiber Beagle tube available now at Phelps game calls.com. Randall and I are working on a project right now. We do this. Have you heard of our stuff? Me years American history, but did the long hunters and the mountain men were doing the Buffalo hunters right now? We do this. Have you heard of our stuff? Meat years, American history, but did the long hunters and the mountain men were doing

the Buffalo hunters right now? Yeah. Yeah. The, the long hunters one that was fascinating to me. I really enjoyed that. Oh, good. We're doing Buffalo hunters. So the commercial Buffalo hide hunters, particularly. Um, there's a couple of instances there where guys are getting in that case, where guys get trampled or tore up by American Buffalo, American Bison, what's happening to them is they got a dozen of them on the ground. But unbeknownst to them, one is, ah, it's the dead ones that kill you. Yeah, it's stung.

You know what I mean? It's like whatever. And they're in there doing their work and all of a sudden it's up. It's up and you know, like, yeah, in their midst. And there's a handful of accounts like this, but there's one we saw where the guy and all of it winds up on it. Cause it's the only way to get clear of its horns. Oh, okay. Yeah. He gets like on it.

Oh really? Sort of like grabs onto the fur. Yeah, so that it can't. Yeah, it can't get him. It's like grabbing the tail, I guess of, uh, like, you know what I mean? Oh, there you go. Yeah. I think there is a mention of that too. A guy got one's tail, but yeah, guy wound up being like that.

He wound up trying to get out of its way, got on it. And then I can't remember. He wrote it till it collapsed or whatever. Hell he did. Yeah. My favorite one is the guy jumps on his horse and then accidentally shoots his horse. Oh dear. Yeah. My favorite one is the guy jumps on his horse and then accidentally shoots his horse. Oh, dude. Oh, dear. Yeah. I'm, I was, I always imagined that Buffalo hunting,

you know, in the American West is like a longer range kind of pursuit, you know, with those sharps rifles and these guys. Yeah. These guys are these guys, they're like in their preferred setup. They were two, 300 yards away. Right. And is that, I mean, obviously they were capable marksmen, but is that because the herd would just behave differently? Yeah.

Yeah. They're relying on a level of confusion. Right. They're relying on their herd, not really understand where the shooting's coming from. Gotcha. And then, um, a thing that really surprised me about in all this research is, uh, two shots per animal was good.

Okay. You'd brag about it. Oh, interesting. Yep. You'd brag about two shots per animal. Okay. Yeah. I would have assumed.

Yeah, that's interesting. Okay. There's accounts of guys making a stock and then realizing they're too close. Backing out another 150 yards or something like Seth did with his coos deer. Yeah. Not intentionally.

Not intentionally. The philosophy of these guys. Yeah. Um, and it, it like evolves, but the, the hunting philosophy of them is that you, whatever one seems to be like, there's a drift to the group or whatever. So whatever one seems to be the point. Yeah.

They like to wound it. Oh, the lead animal. Okay. Yeah. And then the sort of rudderless, the herds rudderless. And then you watch and whoever seems most inclined to take charge, to leave, wound that one. Yup.

And then whoever seems most inclined to leave and then hitting them in a way that they don't run and what's kind of gruesome about is they would sometimes intentionally hit them in front of the hips. Yeah. There's one guy who likes to shoot him in front of the hips. So they just arch their backs and kind of just stagger around. Cause then the other ones are like, well, he's not leaving. Yeah. Got you. Okay. So they like this one. Yeah. But it's still standing here. Do you mean there's

like a, there's a real different ethic. Come different kind of thing. We've observed. No, I'm not going to talk about this too much right now, cause we'll talk about a lot more later, but the thing we've observed is, um, out of the long hunters, you have like American heroes. Yeah. Daniel Boone primarily out of the mountain men you have Jim Bridger. Yep. Um, the hide hunters produce no heroes. Yeah. Sort of a rough, rough cut. They produce no heroes. Yeah. I can see. There's no American hero spun out of that gang.

It took a different sort. It took more of a rogue. Well, yeah. Just like, uh, just there's a wickedness too. I mean like, yeah, it's, it's just like what they, their skillset and all that and their toughness is like undeniable. It's like unparalleled what they could endure, but there's just a brutality that emerges that you don't. Yeah. That's sort of like an awareness, ethical gap and an awareness, an intense, deliberate spoken awareness that you're getting them Like you knew, they knew by and large, they knew exactly what they were doing. Yeah. Yeah.

That's. And by and large did not care. Um, it's just a different gang, man. A different gang. You know, a lot of the great, uh, African professional hunters of, of last century The great African professional hunters of last century were at different times kind of doubled as like game control officers or were given the task of eradicating a large amount of game, either to make way for agriculture or human settlement, um, you know, relocating different tribal groups or white settlement in, in East Africa.

And yeah, it was, it's interesting how they, they could kind of go. I definitely wouldn't suggest at all that they were able to kind of go as, as down and dirty as those buffalo guys, like intentionally wounding stuff. I wouldn't suggest that that was kind of part of the program, but they were able to make this transition from being a very ethical, very kind of, very much focused on adhering to, you know, ethical constraints and game laws and things like that, to going and kind of culling large numbers of elephant and buffalo and other species to kind of make way from agri for agriculture and then kind of seamlessly transitioned back into very selective. Um, you know, a lot of kind of European sensibilities to it, kind of

professional hunting, which is interesting to me. And what year was that crop of guys coming up? Is that like in the, is that like the guys that were emerging around the, the, that sort of hay day that kind of like Hemingway hay day of the thirties and forties and for sure right up until so I would say from the, you know, the early sort of pre first war, uh, world war right up until the kind of, yeah, the hay day of the fifties. And then, and then the hay day was post,

I was stupid to say the thirties and forties, because the heyday was post-World War II. Well, there was sort of two, I mean, it depends on how you look at it. You know, there was, to me kind of defining the heyday is difficult because there was different things that were good about different eras. You know, the, the, the 1890s were incredible as far as. Sounds like Theodore Roosevelt. Yeah. Well, his was 1909 And I was like Theodore Roosevelt. Yeah.

Well, his was 1909, I think was his safari. Um, and so, you know, just before that, you know, things were, Africa was so unexplored and so wild, but on the, you know, the downside of that era was your firearm technology wasn't, you know, where it was post the first, after the, the, um, first world war. And then also, you know, your risk of dying of some tropical disease or whatever was

massive, um, you know, end of the first world war was a real golden age because the, um, the British then acquired what was then Tanganyika, which is now Tanzania. Um, and sort of added that to their, you know, territory that they could hunt. And there was a lot of kind of exploration and opening up of that country, which is fascinating. And obviously the firearm technology had come a long way as it medical stuff. And then you have the arrival of the motor car in the thirties, which really changed the game, um, as far as where you could get. And that was kind of what precipitated a lot of the change where the, even the East African professional hunters association saw the writing on the wall that Safari was going to go in a totally

different direction because it would open up this possibility for a new clientele that had less time to dedicate it to, to it. Like the Roosevelt Safari was a new clientele that had less time to dedicate it to it. Like the Roosevelt Safari was a full year because there was, you know, they had some trucks and that forgetting, but there was no roads, you know, the motor cars weren't widely available. So a lot of it was just on foot. You know, they would go out and hundreds of porters carrying their gear and just kind of march out into the wilderness.

Whereas the motor car changed it where you could have shorter duration safaris. You could get places quicker. You could, you know, the logistical aspect of it was more kind of under control. And then, you know, the arrival of the, the aeroplanes. So, you know, that really allowed people from the U S and, uh, you know, Europe as well to kind of, it just became more accessible. Speaking of the airplane, you know what I can't get into? What's that?

The book you got me on to. Oh, uh, the night. Yeah. What's with the night? You kind of get into it. Struggling. Really? Oh, you don't, what you don't like barrels.

Um, her, uh, no style. I don't like her as a stylist. Yeah. I didn't know there's a little bit of controversy that there's like some people say that she didn't write it. Yes. I don't know if I believe that or not. I mean, it's not, it doesn't look to me like it's neither here or there.

Um, I think her achievements don't, uh, it doesn't take it. If she didn't write it, doesn't take anything away from her achievements. It happens to women because you know that they, there's a, there's an argument that Harper Lee didn't write it doesn't take anything away from their achievements. It happens to women because you know that there's an argument that Harper Lee didn't write To Kill a Mockingbird that it was written by Truman Capote. Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that. Anyhow, can't get into it. Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that.

It's a great book, but- No, it's not. Well, it's a matter of opinion, Steve. No, she was an impressive woman. There's no question about it. And in an era where, yeah, to your point, I mean, even the great Karen Blixson wrote under the sort of pseudonym of Isaac Dennison when she first published Out of Africa. What?

Yeah. God, I think I should learn that from the book. I'm the other disappointing one. of Isaac Dennison when she first published out of Africa. What? Yeah. God, I think I should have learned that from the book. I'm the other disappointing. Well, I'm surprised you didn't go into that and into those nuances. Oh, you know what we gotta do? Chili.

User. Chili has a hunting story to share with us. Oh, good. A New Zealand hunt. Do a New Zealand accent. It's so hard, I mean like. Well you can't because then you gotta use the C word every other word.

Yeah that's the hard part. That was probably the funnest part about being down there. You know what the difference is. When I came home from there. They use that word a lot? Oh yeah. Every other word. When I came home from there I had to,

I made the mistake one time of arguing with my wife. Oh. Oh dear. No. Why not? I didn't my wife. Oh, oh, yeah. Why not? I didn't know. Oh, and you didn't pull it. We've talked about this on the podcast before. It doesn't go away.

Well, the energy of a Kiwi is that. Well, yeah, it's like, you can't, you can't do their thing because their thing every it's like their thing relies on like how we use the word and a lot. They use the C word. Yeah. They, it's, but it's a term of endearment really. Oh, it's like their thing relies on, like how we use the word and a lot, they use the C word. Yeah, but it's a term of endearment, really. Oh, it's everything. It's not like- It's much more universal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like there's ways that they say it. Like if you were to get called like a right C word, like if they called you that, like, oh, he's being a right whatever, then like you're in the crosshairs. I mean, I've recently been And they're Irish and they use it every other word, but I've I guess I've not I said the other day here in Bozeman My house is like, oh that yeah, I know it's terrible thing. That's why I can't go back. That's no good

I'd go back just to be able to say it. No, it's great But yeah, I don't know if I could do the accent like, Hey bro, how you going? You know what the difference is between that and Australian. It's that they sort of flatten their vowels. So like I would say chips and they say chups. Oh yeah. I feel like they also are just, they're more like kind of calm about it. Like they're like, they speak softly. Do yours again with more confidence.

Hey bro. How you going? I don't think that's, that's something different. That's like a guy I wouldn't want to hang out with. I can do the Australian like if... I mean you think, hey bro, hey bro, is New Zealand? Is it more of a hey bro? Hey bro. Say hey bro. Yeah listen, I want you to call up your buddy. When he answers the phone, I want you to go, hey bro. I don't know. And then ask him, what do you think I'm doing right now? I spent 13 days there. I'm not going to be like a subject matter expert.

Hey bro. He's not going to say, I think you'd be in New Zealand. No. Hey bro. No, he, Zane, my good buddy. I declined to do that. Yeah. In an American accent.

Hit it again, hit it again real quick. I can't. Jesus. I got to think of like a word or like a phrase. Yeah, don't do, hey bro. All I can think of is just lines from Flight of the Conchords. That's all I'm thinking of right now. Just like.

Band meeting. So it's like, we're talking about honey. So we're gonna go over there. Yeah, I can't do it. It's very effeminate. I know, but they talk, like they talk. So we're gonna go over there. That might have just been the guys you were with though. We're gonna go over there. It's a very effeminate. I know they talk like they caught Yeah, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get hemmed up I know I am Zane's gonna watch this and he's gonna call me a right Yeah, well you want me to talk like New Zealand. That's fine

But yeah, we we go we went to New Zealand for 13 days to do a public land Tar hunt that was that was the main goal. Yep for for me I went to New Zealand for 13 days to do a public land tar hunt. That was the main goal for me. Can you enlighten me about tar? Yeah, so I guess the best way I could describe tar to somebody that hunts a lot in North America would be to describe them as, they're very similar to a North American mountain goat.

That's how I describe them. Same kind of environment. Same horns, kind of. But weird, kind's how I describe them. Like same kind of environment. Same horns, kind of. But weird, kind of. Weird bald faces. Yeah, weird bald faces. Huge mane, kind of like a lion's mane on their torso. And based off of how old they are or whatever,

the horns and the mane will change. The older they get, I think the more blonde, from what I was described or what I was told, it's like the older they get I think the more blonde from what I was described or what I was told it's like the older they get the more blonde like I don't know if there'll be some yeah there'll be some pictures I think so they're up there but the funny thing about I want to see those pictures tuned into a radio live that aired several weeks ago because that's what we'll be talking about. Oh, okay Yeah, like the like well I'll get into it but From the tar that I shot

It was about a five and a half year old that the horns have rings kind of like your bighorn cheat So that's how you kind of age them And the tar that I shot was about five and a half but it was super blonde and Zane told me he's like I've never seen a five and a half year old with that color of a mane so I thought that was kind of cool when I shot mine there was a darker and older tar bull they call bulls and nannies he was right next to the one I shot and but for some reason I just found this one to be a lot more pretty. I was more interested in the one that I shot. Did you say they call them? So it's, I don't, I didn't remember this.

It's bowls and nannies, not billies and nannies, not bowls and cows. It's bowls and nannies. Yep. Bowls and nannies. Yep. And then, um, Yeah. But yeah, so yeah. Oh look at that.. Oh, look at that. Chilly, look at that. Look good. Nice one. Yeah. So, that's great. Yeah, you can... That's beautiful. I know you sent me some photos looking at it here.

It looks like the American Alpine too, man. And I got a darker face and then really blonde. You're talking about Chilly or the animal? Yeah. It's my spirit animal. Your hair and the hair on that thing's... Coloring look the same. I know. It's probably why I like it so much. Your hair and the hair on that thing's probably similar. Coloring look the same. I know, it's probably why I like it so much. The southern hemisphere looks good on you, Jilly. It does. I also want to point out that that's not where, I mean, that's not where I shot that

thing. That's, we're kind of like in the river bottom. We had to get that thing flown out because I couldn't, we couldn't physically get there. Flown out out? Oh that's very helpful. I would love to get one. Well so like I shot... It fell where you couldn't retrieve it? Well yeah like we thought we could get up there from where we were standing and then so we shot it so we get we get up to where we go want wanted to find these tar and we found them pretty early in the morning hoping they would come back down but they never did and

When I shot I hit it I showed Zane are the photos in the video of me shooting it and he goes I don't think that we're gonna be able to get up there And is that what this picture is chili you pointing up there? Yeah, so like my body's kind of in front of the mountaintop but we thought we would be able to zigzag our way up there and at least try to locate it the next day because we had I think I shot it with about an hour left of daylight left but I showed Zane's like yeah it's not worth it so the next morning Scott from Helly Rural flights he came out and and he picked it up and so he had to get it.

And like when Zane got back after they dropped it off back at camp, Zane was like, there's absolutely no way you were to get up there. Because it, from, I shot it and it fell pretty much on this ice shelf. And Zane said if like, if it would have like slid two more yards, it would have kind of went all the way to the bottom and you would be able to get it. But he's like, if on foot, there's just absolutely no way. So, but... Oh, that's sweet. That's your camp?

Were you on the eastern or the western side of the Alps? We were on the eastern side. Eastern side. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I've done that hunt. Grueling.

Yeah. And just, it's such a pretty place. I mean, we didn't have a lot of options like where we could go I mean that that super green side kind of off to my left there that was like the main mountain we were hunting but sorry my watch is going crazy but we could kind of go around to the right in between the the Snowcapped Mountain and in the Greenside Mountain there. We go up there but there's a glacier in between those two mountains and there's a great glacier off to my

off my right shoulder too. So we couldn't really go anywhere other than straight up the mountain or off to the left. So we were kind of limited but it was just unreal country. Like yeah, we drank water from the glacier on the glacial rivers. Like that was super fun. That was from where I shot and down at the bottom, you can see the kind of scree field.

That's where we were camping. Yeah, super abrasive and super like intimidating country. Like I wasn't, I knew it was gonna be tough, but I don't think I was like mentally prepared as much as I should have been. Yeah, but uh Yeah, no, it was a great trip. Um, a lot of fun stories that that was definitely like a hunt of a lifetime for me It was interesting learning about like tar and like how they how they hunt down there And like like private land public land and all that stuff. There is public, there's kind of like three main ways to hunt.

You got like your game ranches, which would be like your CA ranch or your Galt ranch. Staying at a lodge hunting private land, then you got your public and then you got like free range private. So the guys will like, if you want to shoot a stag, guide will buy the stag and then put it out on private and then you just go hunt it. So. Wanna say that again? Oh yeah, I got you.

You know what I mean? Put and take type deal. Yeah, which is what two of the guys did for the stag and fallow. So, but that was fun to kind of do that. Like I didn't hunt stag or fallow, but. And you didn't run into any shammy's? Shamwhas.

Shamwhas. Not on, no. When there was a guy that was with us and he opted in to shoot a private land tar via helicopter. And so he just got flown in and hunted a tar that way. He, they said that they they when they were doing that they saw some shammy on this private land but I wasn't with him at the time and but yeah apparently they're kind of the

numbers of of tar and shammy from what I was told in the area that we were in are kind of getting decimated. But that's intentional, because I mean, they helicopter gun them to reduce the numbers. Well, yeah, so Zane called it Tarmageddon back in the day. There was just so many Tar, and they made like the Hilo hunting legal,

and like you could do that. And so they just like absolutely decimated the population. And you could argue, I mean, that's good and bad because they were overrunning and they were very much overpopulated. But when I talked to like Zane, he goes, yeah, it kind of makes it like hard when you have clients and you're going into a public spot. Like we probably saw, I don't know, 20 tar up on top of this mountain. And he goes, you told us, he's like 10 years ago, there'd be hundreds on this mountain. Yeah.

And so like, yeah, you could argue both sides of the story. But yeah, from what Zane was saying, he's not seeing the numbers that he would like to see. There's often that tension with these, with places, Australia, speaking for your homeland, New Zealand, Hawaii, okay, where you have non-native populations of game, and you have like the environmental movement, or more like like kind of like the radical end of the environmental movement wants to see them all eliminated which puts them in an odd position because they're arguing for you know it's like it's like they're arguing for like sort of the death of the animals pointing out that they're

non-native and you have the hunters who are like being like yeah I'd control is fine but I don't want them eliminated. Cause by this point you have a century or more of people who've grown up with the resource. Yep. You know, you hear it like it's pretty common there, you know, and, and you get it in Hawaii where there's, there's groups will buy like preservation groups will buy stuff and they want the goats gone, the sheep gone, the hogs gone. And then you got like Hawaiian dudes who hunt and they're on the end of being like, man, you're kind of

like destroying our, our resource. And we don't really care if they're technically native or non-native or whatever. They're here. They've been here. We've always hunted them. My grandpa hunted them. Don't tell me they don't belong. Yeah. yeah, like Zane, I think like the big issue down there, Zane called them greenies, you know? But their argument is that there's a, where they, like what the tar eat, and then in Tar's case, they're eating like vegetation, they're destroying like a plant and taking it out.

So yeah, when tarma getting happened, that was like the main argument was, well, they're destroying this plant and this grassland. Plant biodiversity. That's the argument in Hawaii, too, is plant biodiversity. Yeah, and yeah, I think you just gotta have a certain level of conservation when it comes to that.

You can't decimate the population, but you can't let them run free, too, so you gotta be. Well, and I don't know how well Himalayan Tar are doing in their native range either. It would be a shame to lose that population. And I mean, it's certainly, I don't know if there is a huntable population of them in their native range. There might be in a couple of places.

I'm looking at Southern Tibet, Northern India, Western Bhutan, and Nepal. Yeah. The native range. Yeah, and I wonder if Southern Tibet, Northern India, Western Bhutan and Nepal. Yeah. The native range. Yeah. And I wonder if there is a, is a huntable population there. I, I'm not sure, but I somehow doubt that if there is, it's very large. So it's important, I think, to have, you know, have that kind of repository of,

of genetics there in New Zealand. But yeah, that preservationist kind of impulse to just like get rid of it, take it back, especially in a place like New Zealand has no native mammal seems a little strong. Yeah, it's either super far left or super far right. I mean, but I don't know, we as far as like the hunting goes, like it was, it was tough and there wasn't like ideal from Zane's perspective, but uh, it was still like a really great hunt, like it was tough and it wasn't like ideal from Zane's perspective, but it was still like a really great hunt, like watching tar, like just up on top

of these mountains and doing their thing, like that was, it was unreal, like I said, trip of a lifetime. Well, your observation about mountain goats, it's like more likely that, that's even more like mountain goats, the numbers you saw. Yeah. You had to climb up and be like, oh, there goats, the numbers you saw. Yeah. And you're going to climb up and be like, oh, there's 200 billies up there. Right.

Like you're like, you're like chasing like a billy or two. Right. You know? And obviously it depends on like what sort of like where you're at, you know, like one area is going to have a bunch of them and the next might not. It's like, it's typical for any sort of hunting that you do. But yeah, I guess I kind of had this false narrative like going in to New Zealand, you know,

I've never paid for a hunt like this. I've never done anything like this. And so I kind of had this ideology that like, I'm going to go there and I'm going to be looking at 200 tar every single day. And I like quickly learned that that was not the case. But I mean, it was still, it was like, it was more authentic, I would say.

Like I got like, obviously I was in New Zealand, but it felt like I was back here in Montana trying to find an elk or a bear or something like that, which I enjoyed and made it feel a lot more genuine. Absolutely. So it was a good time. Well done. Good work, Jilly. Yeah. Did you get to, do you you get to bring what do you get to bring back and not bring back and eat or yeah?

or not so You can bring to my knowledge. Yeah, you can bring the meat back. We we did not we ate a lot of it down there For four days, but then we just donated the meat the reason being like is just you know like bags were super expensive Like I would probably had to bring bring three additional bags and like just for two bags down there It was already 400 bucks. How did it taste? Oh, it was good. I mean I didn't there's nothing about it. That was just like If I were to eat this again like this is gonna be this is tar. I mean, it was a red meat It was you know wild game meat And but I thought it was good I definitely did it

again adjacent to anything else you've tried like you know nothing really stood out to me about it like I mean yeah I mean like it wasn't that much like I would probably say yeah close I mean I don't know, maybe like an elk-ish, but like not, like if you have like a really good elk, like you know it's elk, I'd say it's like your average elk. I mean, to me. But yeah, as far as like what we can bring back, like I, you can bring, I'm gonna bring back like the hide,

I'm gonna get a shoulder mount, and then I'm gonna keep the euro mount as well. So I'll replicate the horns, put those on the shoulder mount, and then keep the Euro mount. Who's gonna stuff it for you? Well see I'm gonna talk to John Hayes. He's stuffing a couple things for us right now. Yeah Hayes taxidermy I'm gonna talk to him I don't really have a taxidermy guy because I don't even have a shoulder mount all my Euro mounts I do myself so like this is a whole new

experience for me as well. He's gonna do that big beaver. And then, yeah, the Boston with the boys guys, they want that beaver done. What do they call that? Three point stance in football? They want a beaver done in a three point football stance. Oh wow.

And then he's gonna stuff my, he's gonna do the rug with my kids first bear. Oh nice Wall hang a rug got you stuffed in head. I wanted to do a wall hang a rug like that mountain goat there But well, that's what I have you ever hear the writer Ben Wallace I have not you ever hear the book the billionaires vinegar I've not are you aware of the forthcoming book about the guy that invented Bitcoin mysterious mister Nakamoto No, yeah, definitely a familiar with that that forthcoming book about the guy that invented Bitcoin, the mysterious... Mr. Nakamoto. Nakamoto. Oh yeah, definitely familiar with that.

That forthcoming book? Yeah, yeah, forthcoming book. He wrote that. Oh, okay. Well, I gave him my tar rug. Yeah, you've told me this story a few times, it scares me. And I don't, I reached out recently, just wanted to just make sure it wasn't in some storage unit. And I'm like, hey, while I got you, you how's that tire rug sitting right here in my office

love it I kind of told you that he likes it you're not getting it back anytime soon yeah cuz if he said oh you know it's in the storage unit I would have gotten it back but he still likes it yeah I I wanted to do that but I talked to when I was talking with Zane I'm like hey you know like would that be but I talked to when I Talking with Zane. I'm like, hey, you know, like would that be okay? I don't know if because they're pretty connected with those guys are pretty connected with those animals, you know, they they have like honorable ways of doing things and and So I was like, hey, what would be like the best way to kind of like just honor this animal? Like what would you do with this thing? And he's well honestly I'd shoulder mount it. Like I think a

shoulder mount is a good representation of like this animal. And he goes not a lot of people do the rug thing he's like it's not it's not a bad way to do it because but like with yours with since my mane was so blonde and he goes like you're gonna if you it out, you're gonna cut through the middle of that and then you're gonna flay it out and it's not gonna look the same. So to kind of get, yeah, to kind of, I guess, capture the essence of that creature, he said,

shoulder mount, so that's what I did. Where are you gonna hang it? Right above my bed. That's a good idea. Yeah, mm-hmm, right above my bed. That's a good idea. Yeah. Mm-hmm right above the bed Watch this transition Well, I can't transition out of your story. Oh, is your story done? Oh one last question Is that that cold wetsicle tire? Is it tuned up good playing good for you?

You know, I don't know where that thing's at to be honest. It's not it's not playing good right now. No What do you what is that the transition? No, there's a follow-up question. It's not playing good right now? No. What are you, is that the transition? No. There's a follow-up question. So I don't have a transition out of that. Okay. But I'm going to do a thing and then you'll see that it transitions into something else. Okay. I sent Corinna an article the other day. It's actually a tragedy. Right, but it's hard to know. There's a man, there's a guy in Florida, a law enforcement officer described his criminal history as, this is a quote, quote, meth arrest, meth arrest, meth arrest, meth arrest, meth arrest. So he does some meth.

Yeah. Doesn't leave a lot to the imagination. Think I know where the story's going. He had some kind of psychotic break. Swam a lake, like, like law enforcement was after him. He like swam a lake and gets attacked by an alligator in the lake. Undeterred. Comes out. They tried, I think they tried

to tase him didn't work he was unbothered by that so here's he's been attacked by an alligator in his arm shrugged it off well they ended up they ended up having to kill the guy yeah because he tried to take the firearms off what did they do the alligator? And they shot him.

There's no follow up about the alligator. It's a great question. Thank you. Impressive that he managed to get free. Well, that, you know what the headline is? Bitten by alligator, man is killed after charging at deputies, Sheriff says. Then the authorities say that Timothy Scholl's 42 of Mulberry, Florida swam across an alligator-filled lake before a violent encounter with deputies in the neighborhood. Most guys, that's going to take the fight out of them.

Yeah, I would think so. I would think so. I messaged back that I thought he was on bath salts or something. I think, or just there's something real strong to... Yeah. My guess is bath salts. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, something strong. Based on, yeah, I don't know where... Based on previous history. He was trying to get a shotgun out of a cop car. Yeah, that'll get you shot. Yep. But the main gist of the article is that you get into a lake and get attacked by a gator

and come out fighting. Yeah. Yeah, but- Juiced him up. Altered state for sure. That's not impressive if you're on math. No, that's not the word I'm looking for. I mean, it's just like, it's extraordinary

as evidenced by the fact that it was reported. Yeah. Do you not follow me? Well, it's notable. It'd be tough to call a story. Call it newsworthy. You see that like, an article like that catches a fella's eye.

Yeah. Reported in the New York Times. Yeah, but like in my mind, once you read about it, you're like, oh a fellow's eye. Yeah. Reporting the New York Times. Yeah. But like in my mind, once you read about it, you're like, oh, he's on meth. He's not just like, it just kind of doesn't make it seem as cool. I don't know that cool is something I would apply to this situation at all. I had my cool chart out and I was trying to figure out where to plot this. I need to press it.

More or less cool. So Seth, just to get into your head here. Yeah, let's do it. It winds up that this guy is stone cold sober. Stone cold, 10 a.m. Monday morning. Yeah. Gets attacked by a gator and then tries to kill some cops. You'd put that like if you're like, no, no, no, no, no, this is just the gator thing. Oh, okay. Like you

said about how you just shrugged off a gator attack. Oh, just the ability to shrug off a gator attack. Stone cold soldier. You made it sound like that's what was like interesting to you about this. Kind of been very big of a gator. I don't, but. A guy struggling off a gator attack on meth is not that impressive to me. It doesn't seem that cool. No, I understand.

The, the co, the whole cop thing is not cool. I understand. Yeah. It's like, he's supercharged by meth. All of the cops won. So if the guy is supercharged by meth and Supercharged by meth. All of the cops won. So if the guy is supercharged by meth and doesn't feel that his arm has been bitten

by a gator, that is less surprising that he would shrug it off or not even be all there to experience it versus if a guy were sober and would, you know. See when I first read this, I thought it was about a man. Then I started thinking it was about a gator. Now I'm starting to think it's about a drug. And you know where my head's going next? And this is the sad part. And this is like why stories like this are always hard is like

somewhere is a heartbroken mother. Yeah. I'll tell you one other thing with that. No, if it'd been a Nile crocodile, he wouldn't have, um, he wouldn't have got out of the, out of the swamp. Tell us about that. Tell us about that.

They're, uh, they're, they're entirely more ruthless species than a gator. As far as I can tell. Give me some specs on a now crocodile. Oh man. I mean, they're, they're massive creatures. And I think that from what I can tell, they're one of those things similar to like, I think

I've heard this about like bass, we're over a certain size for every inch they grow in length. They grow in girth. Okay. So the big ones are incredibly girthy. I mean, I shot a 14 footer one time and kind of like, you could barely sit on its back. It was so, so broad. Um, we have one, we have one where you're going in Luganzo game reserve.

It reminds me of me. going in Luganzo game reserve. Reminds me of me. Luganzo game reserve, there is a man eating crocodile currently on the, on the loose, his name's Badawewe, which in Kiswahili kind of translate, it would kind of translate to like not yet you in so far as like he hasn't gotten you yet. Last year, last year he ate five fishermen. No. Yeah.

Five. How is he catching the people? He follows their canoes and he waits till they get out to unload their fishing nets and then he nails them. Steve wants to go after him now. He's got five people. Five last year. I don't know what the tally is now.

I'll have to check in with the guys and see where we're at, but yeah, he's been absolutely terrorizing this village. I tried to get him. I think I saw him. I'm certain it was him because a big crocodile like that, they're quite territorial. I doubt there'd be another one of that size in the same area, but he wouldn't come to my bait. He was too cagey

Hmm too clever Huh? So what's the what's like? Like the processes hunters are just like keeping an eye out for him and like they see him shoot him or well What's like the the plan to so well first first up? We weren't really aware of his existence until We did a kind of river-based anti-poaching patrol, which we do frequently, but we kind of pushed it into some areas where we hadn't done one in a while. And as a process, we caught some kind of guys violating the fishing laws.

And, you know, while they were kind of detained, our guys got to chatting with them and they sort of were telling the story about this particular man eating croc. Um, and so that kind of piqued my interest and I wanted to, wanted to hunt him. Um, Can you just, just to help me understand this whole thing, can you describe like what is the village and how is it positioned and what is the sort of like vibe in the village? Yeah, so it's on the edge of the game reserve. So it's in our hunting area, but it's outside of the boundaries of the game reserve itself. So there's an old German railway that kind

of goes between the game reserve and and Ugala National Park. And then that kind of crosses a bridge and where that crosses a bridge, there, there's, there's a village there. Um, it's a fishing village. You know, the people are, there's some little bit of agriculture and some other stuff going on. And what are they netting there? Uh, they're netting anything and everything, but primarily the species are, um, lungfish, uh, catfish and tilapia.

Okay. So they're netting them for commercial market, not just personal use. Combination ofia. Okay. So they're netting them for a commercial market, not just personal use. Combination of both. Okay. So they subsist off them and then they dry and kind of smoke the, the surplus. Yeah. And then that gets transported to other kind of population centers where it's sold. Got it. How many people are in a village like that? I would guess there's in that one, 1500, 2000. Oh, okay. So it's a good, it's a good number. I got you. Yeah.

And so they kind of, they, they go up and down the river. Um, there's portions of the game reserve waters that they're not supposed to be in that they occasionally kind of violate. Uh, and there's, there's laws about the size of nets they can use, the types of nets they can use, the kind of the, you know, the amount of nets and hooks they can deploy and stuff like that. So it's pretty like what would be recognizable to an American about fishing regulations. Absolutely.

Yep. They require a permit to fish. So they have to, you know, they have to actually go and purchase a fishing permit that gives them a window of time in which they're allowed to fish. Yep. Um, so it's, it's a controlled fishery and we work together with, um, Tawa, Tanzania Wildlife Management Authority to kind of, you know, keep tabs on that,

that fishery and how it's going and how it's impacting species. And it's an important ecosystem. There's obviously the crocodiles there, which are an important species, the fish, the birds, there's African clawless otter in that waterway as well. Which we've never even heard of that. Ah, beautiful. Can I've never even heard of that. Beautiful. Can I tell you a thing that I'm worried about that someone told me, someone told me, I'm going to get back this crocodile, but just the, what you just mentioned

that like clawless otter, someone told me that when you go to Africa for the first time, uh, you're so like overwhelmed and exhausted from the mental processing. Well, that, that, that, that it, that you lose it, that you lose that, like you, you lose everything that's in the moment because you're so like tripped out. I could see that. And they're like, only later when I got home, was that like able to kind of, yeah, because it like, I was just overwhelmed. Yeah. It will be nice because you'll be documenting it. So you'll be able to revisit a lot of that, which is cool. But I think,

I can see that. I mean, I could see there's certainly times, even me, just the, the wonder of it all, you know, just, you know, it's you. I mean, how big is the claw of this otter? Um, I would say roughly the size of our kind of, you know, the North American. River otters. River otter. Yeah. Yeah. About that size.

Oh, so back to this crocodile. So yeah, so we found out about him, the way we typically hunt crocodile, um, you can, you can certainly have like, um, sort of incidentally like you'll be driving along the river or walking along the river and you'll see a sandbar or, um, like a termite mound or something close to the river where they'll have slid up on and be kind of sunning themselves.

And then you can kind of make a stalk and try and position yourself for a shot like that. A lot of times we'll, we'll put bait. So we'll drive some kind of heavy stakes into the river bank. If there's not a tree or a rock or something to anchor to and put some, some stinking meat there to draw them in the big advantage of that is you can really control where you put it because the problem with a crocodile, unless you make the perfect shot that destroys its central

nervous system, like instantly one flick of that tail. If that gets them back into the main stem of the river where there's flow and these rivers, you know, the Ugalah river has significant flow. It's gone. He's gone. You'll never, you'll never find it. So you hit him where? Right in the brain or at the base?

Yeah. You try to sort of, we call it like their smile, where they're kind of, their jaw line kind of goes like this, just above that and kind of between this little horn on their head, you sort of try to shoot them there and it kind of, if you do it correctly, it really pops their skull open. I mean, it's quite, it's quite visceral, but then they'll flick aroundceral. Um, but then, you know, they'll flick around a little bit, but they won't. But they're cash. They're done. Yeah, they're done. And then whereas, you know, there are times when you can,

if you miss that shot, you know, like a neck shot, something like that, we fail to sever the spine or you, you know, you hit them somewhere else. They're going to just flick right back into that deep water and you'll never find them, even if they die. Uh- die, just get swept away. So when you bait them, are you trying to get them the moment he finds it or is he going to start hitting the bait? He'll start hitting the bait. So I think you need to have a good look at them.

I mean, you know, there's, there's two ways, you know, and you've got a big croc coming. I mean, one, you, you know, just the sort of size and scale of it. You can, I find it very hard to judge them through binoculars. I've got to kind of look with my eyes. So you don't want to be too far away for that reason. Also, you know, you're shot and you've got to, you've got to put it in a little slot like that sort of three inch by three inch.

So top of a single serving yogurt container. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of what we're talking about. So you got to be, you want to be closer for that. But, um, aside from that, you know, when, oftentimes you'll put these baits and you'll get a lot of small crocs on them. You know, there'll be five, six, seven, sometimes

10, like anywhere from six footers, eight footers down to three, four footers kind of splashing around, making a lot of noise, tearing this bait apart, but when the big boys coming, like they can, they can sense it. And I, whether they make vibrations or vocalizations in the water, something like that, um, these crocs split, the little ones will. One big man.

Evaporate. Yeah. And then you'll see this sort of head come up and they have like this big, that's like a tennis ball on the end of their nose. And then, you know, you'll, you'll usually let them sort of get comfortable, drag themselves out of, ideally you have the bait where they have to sort of drag themselves out of the water a little bit to kind of expose that shot. Yeah. Um, but that's impressive.

So, and those waterways, is it inadvisable just to be down, wading around on the edge? Uh, you can, you can do it. I mean, there's areas like it, it just depends on how the water looks, right? If you've got sort of a bit of a shallow flat, you could, you can splash around there a little bit. You know, he's not there. Yeah.

You know, you'd see him coming, you know, you'd have to make a wake, but like if there was a big pool, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go near it. I mean, he could be just waiting, waiting there in ambush. You'd have a hard time seeing him. You won't know until he's got ahold of

you and they move like lightning to. What, uh, what are you shooting those things with, like what rifle? waiting there in ambush, you'd have a hard time seeing him. You won't know until he's got ahold of you. And they move like lightning. What, uh, what are you shooting those things with, like what rifle? Um, you, well, whichever one you shoot the best. Are you using a scope? Scoped rifle? Yeah, a scoped rifle is ideal. Yeah.

Whatever you shoot. I mean, typically, um, we'll, sometimes when you're sneaking up on them, you know, you'll, you'll be following Buffalo, Buffalo tracks by the river and it's like, Hey, there's a massive croc on that sandbar. And the guy's got his 416. That's what you're shooting it with. In an ideal world, like where I had all the time in the world, set it up, kind

of build my blind, get everything staged. You know, and does the job. Um, again, with that brain shot, you're not, you're not trying to, uh, kind of achieve penetration. You're just trying to pop that brain open. Talk about shot placement on a Kate Buffalo. I'm, I am a, uh, firm proponent of the shoulder shot. So kind of come up that leg about a third of the sort of, you know, a

third of the way up the body from the belly line and put it right on the shoulder there. In the, like on the shoulder? On the bone, not behind the shoulder, on the bone, break that shoulder. And this is something that's changed. Some of the old school guys will very much disagree with me. And I would argue that their thinking is rooted in a different era where, um, high quality bullets weren't

available. Yeah. Uh, there was just a lot of junk. And so one would always try to shoot behind the shoulder to make sure that you got adequate penetration. Now, if you're shooting something along the lines of a Barnes TSX, Swift A frame, that type

of stuff, it'll more than adequately penetrate that shoulder bone. And then you break them down. They don't go as far. You know, it's, it's a lot of trauma. A busted shoulder is really going to slow them down. Hitting them right in the shoulder. Right in the shoulder. Everything.

Below the scapula. Or below the scapula. Yeah. Sort of somewhere near that joint, you know, somewhere where that scapula kind of joins on to the, to the other bone there. Let's say he's quartering away from you. Quartering away from you. You're going to, so what I like to talk about, I like say, imagine you have X-ray vision.

And so if you can't break the onside shoulder, shoot the offside shoulder. What if he's coming dead on nuts? Dead on, it depends on how he's holding his head, but when they typically sort of, if they're a little bit curious, you know, they won't, you know, they sort of, they've seen something, they'll kind of hold their head in a fairly, I would say fairly neutral position. It's not too up. It's not too down unless sometimes if they're, they'll, you know, they'll be laying under some vegetation kind of in the shade and they'll stand up and to see

you, they'll have to sort of dip their head to see under the vegetation, kind of in the shade, and they'll stand up and to see you, they'll have to sort of dip their head to see under the vegetation. In that instance, it can be tough, but typically I sort of just go right below the chin, kind of into, you're trying to get it into this kind of clavicle gap here. And that's not inadvisable. It's not my favorite, but sometimes,

if it's that or nothing, right? Like if you've got to make that shot, but I'll tell you one thing about that shot when it's done properly, it like, it really rocks their world. So if they don't react to how I want, like how I would expect them to, that'll be a time where I'd consider backing up because

what can happen with that shot, if it's off, it'll kind of hit the sternum, which on those things is sort of like a, you know, very V shaped and obviously extremely robust piece of bone with a lot of sort of sagging skin hanging on it. And what that can do, the sagging skin will kind of set up the bullet.

So it really mushrooms quicker than it would on a, on a sort of a taut like flank. And then it will hit that sternum and kind of go along sort of track along the sternum and wind up kind of in the armpit. If you know what I mean. Having done no damage to the vitals, you'll get some blood. You follow that thing forever. And it's, it's, it's a bad deal. So I don't, I don't love the frontal shot, but I don't, it's not off the table. It's not like we never do that. It's something that sometimes you've got to make it happen.

And no Texas heart shots. Uh, on a followup shot. Yes. Uh, no, like as a first shot, absolutely not. Um, but as, as a followup shot, the old Portuguese brain shot. The old Portuguese brain shot. I've never heard of that one. Imagine it's running away. That's why it's important to travel and meet people from other cultures.

So, because you learn about shot placement. Portuguese. That's what I was telling you. You always want to be able to travel. You want to travel the world. You learn about shot placement. What's better on that follow-up though, if they do spin and turn away than your classic Texas heart shows, try to break that hip.

So on a follow-up, like once you make your first careful shot, is any shot good? Give it to it. Absolutely. Any shot is good. Yeah. You didn't come all the way to, so like to your previous point about those other guys with like two shots on a bison was considered good. I don't have any, the more the merrier. If it's still on its feet, keep shooting. Um, and then also for, you know, reasons like those guys experience where it's,

as I said, the dead ones will kill you will oftentimes go up, even if it's looking thoroughly deceased, put another one in there as insurance. And then is there any situation where you ever tell a client, like on the, like the animal's fine. So it's not wounded where you're, where you're shooting in the head, shooting in the head. Uh, I have had situations like that before. It's extremely close.

You know, you just, for whatever reason, again, mostly in that montane forest, one kind of stands up and all you can see is the head kind of above the vegetation. Um, and it's like, yeah, you, you know, you're going to have to go for a headshot here. If you can do it, um, if you feel comfortable, go for it. And again, if you get it right, it's going to

have an instant result. Otherwise I'm going to have to back you up. Yep. If you get it right, it's going to have an instant result. Otherwise I'm going to have to back you up. You know, I didn't realize is, is standard and this doesn't bother me, but, um, it's standard it, that when you wound an animal, that's, that's it. That's your, like effectively you tag the animal. Yes. You want to get away.

Yeah. And, um, there are units in, there's a bear unit in Alaska, for instance. Like if you touch it, right. She touched the bear and don't find it. It's still regarded as that was your bear. Yep. You've earned your tag in Africa. Like that's absolutely how you take it.

You take a bad shot or get a bad hit. That's your, you scratched your ticket. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's it. That one your ticket. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's it. That one's off your license and we write it down as wounded, lost, very sad, sad thing to have to do. So a lot of, a lot of things.

So it's paid to be, yeah, it's to mitigate that. Yeah. Just be cautious, man. Be cautious. Yeah. If the shot doesn't, if it doesn't feel right. And again, the beautiful thing about Africa and especially where we're going, you know, these premium areas like in Tanzania, you, it's not like you like, oh, that was your

Buffalo. You know, we saw one for the, for the two week trip and you, you fluffed it. It's like, no, we'll get another chance. This one runs off. We'll find another one. There's more. There's plenty. Do you guys use the term Dagger boys? Can you explain that to me? Yes, we do. We do use the term Dagger boys? Can you explain that to me? I don't know if you mentioned that to me. I, yes, we do. We do use that term. Say it again. Dagger boy. Dugger.

So it's a, so the term Dugger is it's a Southern African term. It's a, it's a Southern African term. Well, it's a bastardization of a, of a word in one of the Southern African kind of Bantu languages, which it refers to mud. Um, and the reason is Douga boys. So the old bull buffalo that are in their kind of bachelor phase or then in a permanent bachelor phase as sometimes is the case will spend, they like to wallow. They spend a good, you know, Cape Buffalo are a wallowing animal.

Um, they, they enjoy it. They like to, it helps them keep, um, biting flies away. It keeps their skin healthy. Um, so they, they're wallowers. They love it. And oftentimes you'll see those old balls will spend a good amount of time wallowing

and they'll be really crusted with mud. Got it. So that's where, that's the origin of the term. The mud. It's the mud boys. Yeah. It's one of those terms like Safari, which like is very much a Swahili term, but it's become kind of ubiquitous throughout the continent.

Dug a boy will be used to describe an old bull, Buffalo kind of wherever you go. And your plan, like we talked about this before, but your plan is you guys don't get on the big old herds. Generally looking for like male little squads, one, two, three, four, whatever. Yeah. Little bachelor gang. Bachelor balls. Yeah.

That's the ideal. I mean, we'll definitely, um, we'll follow some herds and we'll get up on them for the, for the experience of that, particularly early on in the hunt. And there are times where particularly in Luganzo, because it has, um, it has a big river and a big lake. So what I find happens there more so than other areas I've seen is that a lot of buffalo kind of congregate there. Bachelor bulls and herds will kind of be gravitating towards the same areas to drink and kind of feed on that, on that flood plain. They're not together, but they're drawn

together, but they're drawn to the same area. And they'll kind of often like leave together. So they'll kind of mingle. So, you know, I have found more again, more consistently than other places I've hunted in Luganzo, you'll find like a really old buffalo or a couple of really old buffaloes with, with a herd, but it's a sort of loose casual association and they'll break off and sort of peel off

eventually. So we'll spend some time mixing it up with herds for the experience. And again, I like part of what I like to do is give you that opportunity to really feel that species versus kind of just looking at the back of my shirt for however many days. And then I put the sticks up and say, that's the one like we'll, we'll really try to get in amongst them and sort of see how that, you know, just feel it, just enjoy their presence and kind of get a sense of the species. But yeah, the one I want to shoot, I'm almost

guaranteeing will be in a, in a bachelor herd. And how do you know a shooter when you see it? Like, what do you see where you're like, that is a shooter. Hard boss. So, so the way the buffalo's horns grow, you've got obviously that kind of bone core, um, with the horn, like the, the keratin sheath on the outside. And in a mature bull, it kind of grows from the outside in.

So on a young bull, and then you'll see this very clearly when you're looking at them through your binoculars, the kind of what we call the boss, which is where the horns kind of come together over the top of their head, over that kind of honeycombed bone that protects their brain. It'll be still sort of vascular and soft and pulpy, even like a little bit of hair growing out of it on a young bull. A fully mature bull, that will have completely hardened into horn. And there may be a strip of hair or a strip of kind of flesh or skin down through the middle of the horns. Not all of them fully meet in the middle. Some do, some don't. That's not a,

like a determining factor of age or anything like that. It's just like a genetic thing. Some do, some don't. Um, but yeah, we want a fully mature, a hard bossed bull that's, that's worn down. Ideally some of its horn. Uh, and yeah, it's just that right one to take. And how wide is he tip to tip? Depends. Um, my, the best one I shot last year was 42 inches,

sort of from widest point to widest point. Like, um, but I've seen, I've seen them there. I, I was, I had a client last year that was a bow hunter and we didn't manage to get on this buffalo, but we, we put a stalk on one that I would have conservatively put it like 44. Is he still around? Oh yeah.

You know where he is? We got him. A general idea. A vicinity. You hearing this Randall? We'll give it a crack Steve. Is this,. You're in this, Randall? Yeah, we'll give it a crack state. Is this, what's this doing for you, Randall? Oh man.

What's all this doing for you? I mean, I've always had the, I've always been really curious about Africa. I think just for the sense of like wonder, like you described, just like the smell and the soil and the plants and just seeing animals. But yeah, I'm getting, I guess what it's doing for it's, it's inspiring quite a bit of jealousy in me. Envy. That's a reason.

It is. Yeah. Yeah. Reasonable position to take. So you're interested. Oh yeah. Yeah. We almost, uh, we were at, at the Montana Wild Sheep

Banquet, we got a little, we were over served and almost We were at the Montana Wild Sheep banquet. We got a little, we were over served and almost went in on a safari with our friends. Hmm, where was it? The one in Bosnia, oh, the safari. Yeah. I have no idea. You were almost bidding on it?

We did bid on it. What country? Who doesn't know? That's not a good start. Well, the first text message I saw on my phone the next morning was, I'm glad we didn't wake up as the owners of a safari. Got it. Yeah. But it's always something that's kind of like, you know, you got a couple little voices in the back of your head about things that you'd like to do someday. And yeah, I definitely have the itch. Oh dude, I definitely have the edge. Oh dude, I'm like...

Bit on it next time. Well, let's talk about it first. I did not wake up with that feeling. Send me the details, shoot me a text, I'll give you the inside scoop on whether it's gonna be something new. Morgan, I hope you can reply quickly because I'm in the middle of a drunking... I'm in the middle of a drunking bidding'm in the middle of a drunk bidding process. Is it worth it?

I just wanted to fact check a couple things. Yeah, I'll set a couple of god rails for you. Yeah, no, I mean, I think like, especially just the history and sort of the place of African hunting within our larger hunting traditions, like globally, I think it's something I's something that I'd definitely like to experience and understand better. Yeah.

I'm dying to go check it out. And like with me though, the thing is, of course you can just go check it out, but I need, I need, I need like, like, uh, the immersive, like, like the, the, I need to get in there, you know, the immersion is the thing, the totality of it, like the history, the, the flora, the fauna, the culture, the people, that's what

makes African hunting, I think, unique, aside from the species and the conduct of the whole hunt, right? All that's a separate thing. But if you just think about like the, the appeal of it, why it kind of gets people so much, it's just the totality of it, all that kind of history and culture. Yeah.

I think we also get to highlight the differences between hunting across certain countries in Africa and that like the experience in Tanzania, I anticipate will be very different will be very different than for example, uh, wherever I would have gone. Yeah. In South Africa. I'd actually bet on it. Which feels very different. I'd say that's a fair.

Yeah, for sure. I think so. Um, I think East Africa has that, that reputation. Um, and certainly I don't want to take anything away from like, there's some amazing hunting that happens in Southern Africa, Central Africa, French, you know, Francophone, West Africa. There's some incredible hunting experiences that can be had kind of across the continent.

But I think East Africa kind of holds a certain place in people's imaginations because of, yeah, because of that history and because of the kind of like the way that it was the birthplace of a lot of the kind of conservation ideals and hunting ethics ideals and sort of, yeah, I think it's just what, it's where your brain goes when you think of safari. I got a last question for you. How are we doing, Phil? Phil's real worried about everybody getting out of here.

Tim, we got 10 minutes. We're good. Okay. You got 10 minutes to answer this question. Lay it on me. Let's say, um, I'm over in Europe and some guys like, I'm going deer hunting in America. I'm going, no, not that I'm going deer hunting in North America. First thing on my mind is, well,

that could mean any number of things. Sure, yeah. Are you hunting in South Florida? Yeah. Are you hunting in Northern Alberta? Like, what do you mean? So how different, like, you know what I mean? You're going hunting in Africa.

Yeah, yeah. It's a big ass place. Big ass place. Like, how different is it all? Do you know, I mean, you're going hunting in Africa. Yeah, it's a big ass place big ass place like How different is it all do you know? I mean very very is it is Did what it would it seem is different to someone there is it would seem to be from Florida to Alberta percent 100 Sarah if I would have that exact same reaction if I sit if I met someone yet in an airport bar And they're like I'm on my way to Africa to go on safari, you know, hunting safari, I'd be like, where are you going? And what are you, I'd have some preconceived ideas. But yeah, you've precisely, you've told me nothing.

I mean, it just, I think if I, if I kind of boil it down to like why Tanzania is different and where we're going is different, it's what sort of sets us apart is that free range, those big, vast areas. Um, there's no fences. That's what drew me in. There's no big, huge country. Expansive of it, you know, and again, I think we talked about it on the last podcast, Tanzania has got roughly 30% of its landmass

set aside as wilderness of some sort. You know, some of it's got some grazing and seasonal agricultural activities. Others, other parts of it, like where we're going in Luganzos, just pure wilderness, but it's a massive amount by modern standards. It's a massive, massive amount of wilderness there. And to be able to hunt those species

in an unfenced environment where they're not a reintroduced, um, animal, you know, there, or, or intro or purely introduced animal there. That's ancestral stock. That's as wild as they get. You know, that book I was being slightly critical of thunder without rain. I was being a little too harsh on it. Yeah.

Because you know what it did explain is when that cattle disease came, a rinder pest, render pest came and then jumped into the Cape buffalo and just decimated the buffalo. Yeah. Yeah. Crushed them. Yeah.

Early he spends a lot of time on render pest. Yeah. And the famine that emerged from first the famine of people that were herders, that were cattle herders. Got flattened. Yeah. But then also the famine that extended, um, to other people that had been hunters and just wiped them out.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like that more than hunting. Oh yeah. Rinderpest. Rinderpest massive for sure. Of all the things, you know, um, that set back game, it's, I mean, even, well, I don't think rinder

pest, I think rinder pest is one of two diseases that humanity's successfully eliminated altogether. Okay. Like completely we're free of it. Um, and so it's that in smallpox. Rinder pest, I think right up until the fifties was like an issue in East Africa.

Um, but it's a great name for disease. It is. Yeah. From German, yeah. Cattle disease. And so it, when it first came in, I think it's almost a hundred percent like fatal in, um, you know, species that are naive as far as being

inoculated to it. Uh, but over time, obviously the, you know, you gain natural immunity and then there was efforts made by the veterinary departments in what at those times were colonies to kind of mitigate it. Um, but yeah, it, it hammered the population of Buffalo, but what it, the also interesting thing that you can kind of glean from the rinder pest epidemic is that those animals came back, you know, in, in vast numbers because the

habitat was intact. Yeah. And that's the, that's the difference. You know, if you have these sort of massive wipeouts of species, it's something that, that's happened throughout, you know, history as a result of climate or whatever. If the habitat's intact, there's a, there's

an option, there's a possibility for them to come back as long as you've got some kind of genetic reservoir. Yeah. Um, but if you destroy got some kind of genetic reservoir. Yeah. Um, but if you destroy the habitat, you're done. So it's remarkable how robust and resilient these species are in the face of things like

rinderpest, um, if the habitats there. Here's my actual last question. What's a big group, what's a big group to run into? Oh, of Cape Buffalo. Yeah. Uh, it depends very much on the area in Luganzo. I would say a big herd would be 60 to 80. Okay.

Um, just because of the terrain, um, and kind of like, and yeah, the environment, the, um, the lion population, but there are certain areas like, um, you know, in Mozambique, even Southern Tanzania, I've seen some really massive herds, but you know, where you'll get like big sort of floodplain areas where there'll be hundreds and hundreds of them out there. Now when we're out knocking around, are we going to run into lions? Almost certainly.

Yeah. Oh, that'd be cool. Almost certainly. They're there all the time. Sickly, Seth. He'll be sick. I don't know. What's it like?

Are they like grizzly bears here where you got to watch out for them if you run into them or just like. Generally speaking, no. Sometimes they'll put on a little bit of a, bit of a performance, but generally these ones, um, they'll, they'll sort of slink off, you know, they'll, if they've got a kill nearby, they might be a little more reluctant to leave and they'll kind of like, you know, they'll posture a little bit. But you're very unlikely to have an issue with them.

And just in that context of like bumping into them somewhere. What about snakes? I would be surprised if we may see them, but more, more often than not, like I would say in all my time in Africa, 85% or more of the snakes I've seen have been like on the road, sunning themselves. When you sort of drive by, it's like, oh, there's a Cobra. Do you guys got that one where you're supposed to just lean against a tree and die? Cause there's nothing to do about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Black Mamba. Yep. For sure. Yeah. You run into those often? Yeah, not often, not often. It's uncommon, but you'll see them again. The best thing you can do is just lean against a tree.

You ain't gonna live. Is that true? So yes and no. Well, if you get bit by one. I'll tell you two stories about black mumbas, and we can leave it at that, but it's uncommon to see them. And again, usually it's that same thing. You'll see them from the car. They'll kind of be beside the road and- Do you pastor them when you see them?

No, we typically leave them alone. Um, one time I was in, I was in the Saloo, I was in southern Tanzania and I was, we were following Buffalo with a client and there's kind of a little depression, like this little valley that had tall grass in it, you know, seven, eight foot tall grass, um, and we, seven, eight foot tall grass. And we'd based on the freshness of the Buffalo tracks that we were following, we kind of the trackers and I had a little conference and sort of determined that they likely weren't in that tall grass.

Like they'd passed, it wasn't that big of an area. They'd kind of pass through it and gone and bedded down somewhere in the miombo, like in the woodland. So we were pretty confident in being able to just sort of pass through it. So we're pretty casually like going through this tall grass, sort of following these trails that the buffalo and elephants and other stuff had made through there. And, um, yeah, I'm just sort of fairly, not totally asleep at the wheel, but sort of just, you know, going along.

Um, and next thing, like the two trackers kind of, they went around a little sort of corner and the grass in front of me to where I couldn't fully see them. Next thing they both just sort of like evaporate, just like gone. They just like flew past me, like not a word said, just like disappeared. And I'm like, oh no, the buffalo are in here. So I sort of pick up my rifle safety off. But normally with buffalo in that kind of context, like it'd be a cow with a calf or something and you'd hear them. Like they're going to, they, a lot of times they'll vocalize.

You'd hear them crashing around. It was like silent. A couple seconds later, this black mumber sort of reared up to like just below my eye level kind of comes around the corner and the grass. Yeah. I mean, this thing was thick. It was sort of probably like diameter, I don't know, like four or five inches. level kind of comes around the corner in the grass. What? Really? Yeah. I mean, this thing was thick.

It was sort of probably like diameter, I don't know, like four or five inches. It was like a thick snake, big snake. I couldn't see the full length of it, but it was really reared up and they do, they really rear up, which is why they, they so deadly because they'll strike you in areas that you can't put like a tourniquet, like you'll be. So I just pulled my front trigger and I still can't tell you to this day, whether I hit that thing or not. But I'm sure the muzzle blast from like that, that distance rattled its cage.

And I just turned around, grabbed the client, just ran, just got out of there. Cause they'll come at you. Yeah, they will. I mean, they do what the guys said later was he was like just curled up on the trail and when they kind of like got up on him, like he sort of got agitated, right? Like he felt like he was being accosted and he sort of reared up and, and sort of like, sort of came towards them. And then he was probably just more or less curious as to what had happened

and kind of came around that corner and got a face full of a Nitro Express. But I also heard a story about, I also heard a story about a young Messiah boy that was bitten by one in Messiah land. And, um, there's this wonderful place, not far from Arusha called Mesorani snake park. We'll actually drive by it. Um, where they have,

they have a bunch of snakes. Yeah, it sounds great, but it's really cool. I'm sorry, I wasn't sure what to do with that. They have a bunch of snakes and they have a clinic where they extract venom and they do all the stuff there and they treat pretty much they're the hub for all of Northern Tanzania for like snake bite victims.

Got it, got it. And so the, the, the other kids that this, this Messiah boy was with recognized that he'd been bitten by a mamba. So they, they kind of managed to get him to a road where they flagged down a guy on a motorbike and they got him on the motorbike and they all took off their belts and kind of belted him to the guy

because they knew he was going to pass out. I mean, he was like a virgin passing out. And he passed out, um, somewhere along the journey. They got him to Mesurani. They gave him the, like they gave him the treatment, the anti-venom. And apparently like a couple of days later, it was fine. Really? Yeah.

So you can survive. Happy as a clam. The only injury he had like, like that was kind of sucked was when he passed out, like one of his feet had kind of dragged along the black top. Oh, it's got a, got serious road rash, but he was, um, he was fine. So I'm not going to say it's a hundred percent fatal, but yeah, if we're out there in Luganzo, we definitely want to avoid those things, but I'd be surprised. That's going to have two huge belts on now.

Yeah. So he can just belt you to steel toe boots. Well, again, the snake boots aren't going to help you. The snake boots aren't going to help you. No, no, just for the dragging your feet behind the motorbike. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Well, and the other thing about them that's kind of spooky is they're like semi-arboreal.

They'll go up trees. So there are guys that have been bitten from above. Right down the top of his head, right through his little hat. That's not going to have a good time. Or he's going to do a satirical hat. No, I'd be surprised if we see one. top of his head right through his little hat. Seth's not gonna have a good time. Right through his interior hat. No, we won't, I'd be surprised if we see one. If we do, it'll be cool because we'll be from the car

and we can all go ooh ah and not have to worry about getting bit. Thank you. I'm like go poke him, Seth. Nope. Touch it. Go worry him. Nope. All right. Wait, before we end. Oh, it's gonna wrap up.

We just gotta say that your dream will come true because we will have a handful of bonus episodes dropping just a couple of, we'll have a lot of fwaps. How do you spell fwap? F-W-A-P-P-P-P. Don't look at me. We'll think about it. It makes good.

We'll call them all fwap. Fwap, fwap. One, two, three. Fwap, one, two, three. Yep. We'll have a bunch of f swaps while we're in country, um, turned around, you know, within a matter of days, uh, uh, podcast video, um. Stevie, Stevie Hemingway goes there.

Yeah, exactly. A short happy life. There's Tuesdays and Thursdays for a few weeks. Um, so you can stay tuned for those. I can't wait, dude. I can't wait. stay tuned for those. I can't wait, dude. I can't wait. You're there now. Yeah.

I'm getting excited, man. Let's do them snakes. Um, thanks for coming out, man. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to being in the bush with you. We're going to have a hell of a time. No, I think it's going to be fun.

I think it's going to be fun. Julie, congratulations on your hunt. Thank you, sir. Phil, we're getting out of your hair. Thank you, sir. We're only seven minutes overdue. My boy's calling me. Oh, I can't tell this.

I got a funny story about my kid, but I'll tell later. Nothing to do with our subject matter. All right, guys, thank you. Now available, the all new Belps Carbon Fiber Beagle Tube. Is this the best beagle tube ever? Well, in order to be so, it would have to sound the best, be the lightest, be the loudest, be easy to run, be silent when moving through the brush, be the most durable, and it would have to be made out of the best materials available. Well, check, check, check, and check.

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