The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 733: Dispatches from Africa - Anti-Poaching With A Side Of Black Mamba

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Joash Vomo, Executive Director of the Robin Hurt Wildlife Foundation and Anti-Poaching & Community Coordinator. Topics Discussed: Buy a raffle ticket for the chance to win TRCP’s annual turkey hunt with Steve and Jani; subsistence poaching vs. selling poached game meat on the black market; snares big enough to catch a cape buffalo; homemade muzzle loaders; the punishment for poaching a giraffe, Tanzania’s national animal; how a poacher becomes an anti-poacher; community-based conservation; patrolling waterways; how black mambas can stand on their tales, chase cars, and kill you in a matter of minutes; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YoutubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to FWAP 4 of our Dispatches from Africa. I'm joined here to talk about poaching in Africa and anti-poaching efforts in Africa with Joe ash Vomo. Yeah known as JJ around these parts who works with Robin hurt safaris on community development projects and Anti-poaching efforts and we're gonna talk a little bit about how those two things actually Have something to do with each other. Before we get into that subject though, I want to remind everyone, right now we have the raffle is open, the window to buy raffle tickets is open for our annual TRCP fundraiser turkey hunt.

For many years now, we run a raffle and we pick a winner and that winner brings along a friend to go turkey hunting with me and Yannis Poutelis. When you win, you and your friend, we cover your airfare, we hook you up with any gear you might need for the trip, we cover the price of your turkey tag, we cover food, lodging, everything. We pay, you don't pay anything. We pay everything for you guys to come turkey hunt. You'll spend three nights with us. We'll have two full days of turkey hunting. We do it every year.

We bounce around different spots we wanna hunt. We always have a ton of luck. The raffle is open from now to the end of July. All the expenses for the turkey hunt are covered by a donor, a buddy of mine. Covers all the expenses for the turkey hunt are covered by a donor, a buddy of mine, covers all the expenses. All of the raffle ticket money goes directly to TRCP and TRCP's, you know, their slogan again is guaranteeing Americans quality places to hunt and fish.

All the money stays on mission when you buy a raffle ticket. The recent public lands fight that we lived through, TRCP was front and center in getting that squared away and leading us to a big victory in that battle. So get your raffle tickets now. Back to subject. You, Joe Ash, you're Tanzania born. Yes, I'm a Tanzanian.

Okay. How did you ever get into the career that you're in? What led you down that path? I started out in community development. I joined Robin Heart Wadler Foundation as an intern. Okay. Yeah, like 12 years ago. So we were doing community projects in the communities that surround the areas that Robin Hood Safaris has for hunting.

So that's how I got in. And also I was doing also anti-poaching patrols, mostly in this area. I've done quite a bit of patrols. So you've been doing patrols here for 12 years? Yeah, I've been doing it, yeah, for a while, yes. In the U.S., when we hear poaching in Africa, right? Nine out of ten people, their mind goes to elephant ivory and rhino horns.

How is that accurate? I mean, in what ways is it a more complicated picture than that? But that is what people think when they hear those words. Yeah, of course, largely the poaching in Tanzania is just for sustenance. But then you have the big porches who go for the elephants and the rhinos. Of course, there's not any more rhinos left. In this area, they've been poached out. Yeah, but that was in the 70s and 80s. There has been elephant poaching, but we haven't had any incident for the last 10 years. We haven't had any incident with with elephant poaching and also the government really Came down hard on on elephant poaching and rhino poaching. Okay. Yeah

So so what is poaching today that you deal with well poaching today what we deal with what to deal with is mostly For I can say it's there's a market for game meat, which is usually buffalo or any animal that they can get on a snare. So and there's a belief like in giraffe meat that it has some healing capabilities. So then there's a market also for that. So but it's usually for the meat. That's what the most of the poachers go for It's a it's a it's like a black market, you know

so they hunt and they poach and They sell the meat to various places in a black market. Yeah, is it is it common you'd be able to go into a City or a town in Tanzania, and if you looked around you would find game animals for sale in the open or is it is it more discreet? No it is very very discreet yeah they don't do it in the open. A few years ago the government opened up game meat butchers so that to give the the people a chance to get an animal legally. There are places where the locals can go and hunt, they get a permit, they go with a government game scout and they can hunt an animal. And yeah, if you have the license, then you can sell

it. But it's not that much, it's very rare. So most of the game meat is is sold very discreetly and to select a number of people who I think the poachers have some sort of relationship with We've in the time I've been hanging around here. I've heard a number of people mention Snaring. Yeah, um in the US and in most states You can set you can set snares for fur-bearing animals. It's very regulated. Okay. Okay. You guys are talking about a type of snaring

that is more meant to just, well, one, to catch like large game, big game animals, to catch meat animals. Yeah. How are the snares employed? What are they made of? Like, what does it look like when you encounter a snare setup?

I'll give you an example. It's, they use wire. What are they made of? Like what does it look like when you encounter a snare setup? It's They use wire so it's they put it close to Water holes and on the on riverbeds So it's it's a wire. That's it's round and then the animal goes in It starts to tighten up. Show me how big they make the loop. The loop can be quite big, you know. It can be like, it's big.

It's like this big. So even a buffalo head can go in. So you can snare. Yeah. They'll snare something that big. Yeah, they can. Yeah, they can do it. And then you also, I hear guys talk about a muzzleloader. Yes. Now we can buy a muzzleloader. Yeah, right at the store

Yes, these are not store about Muslim. No, no, they're not usually you find that a lot of the people with muzzleloaders they They they got the skill down from their grandparents so they can make one and so they can make one and they use like a piece of metal this big and put it in there like a bullet and they have gunpowder and they shoot it out. Others have some very old very old muzzleloaders which I believe that they got from you know a lot of people from this area during the First World War they were used as fighting in the First World War in Africa on this side so they were

part of the German German local army and later on they became the King's African rifles so some of them came back home with the with the muzzle. Oh, I got it. So it got handed down Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you find them from time to time So when you're you're out on patrol and you guys do we'll do 30 day patrols Yes, and and in this area you're patrolling. I keep telling this like to our audience I keep trying to explain like this this reserve that we're on. Yes It borders a large national park on one of its borders. It's a game reserve that's the size of,

we have a very large famous park called Yellowstone National Park in the US. It's that size. You do 30 day patrols. Let's say you catch somebody. You encounter a poacher, you encounter a guy in camp. He's got illegal. He's got snare equipment. He's got meat Is it are you at liberty to make an arrest like like how do you approach the situation? What do you do when you find someone? Okay during our patrols? We have two to four

Government game scouts. They're the ones legally who are allowed to apprehend a person who is caught poaching or doing anything illegal. So as soon as we get the guy or culprits, we have 24 hours to present him to the relevant authorities. You can detain him for 24 hours. Yeah. So what we do during the 24 hours, we'll do our best to make our way out of the area and when he goes to the police station and he stays there until then the evidence comes in and then it becomes a court case from there. Yeah. And what kind of fine, like let's take something in the extreme. There's giraffes here. Yes. We see them most days. Yeah. It's the national animal.

Okay, so it'd be like our equivalent would be the bald eagle, our national bird. If you kill a bald eagle, you're in a ton of trouble. You catch a guy with something like that. What sort of like, what is the punishment that if you've got a good case and you can prove it, what would be the punishment for something like a punishment for that is close to 20 years in jail okay yeah yes I keep hearing you know guys at Robin hurts far you saw about that a lot of staff yeah people they hire yes would be people that reformed poachers yeah maybe

people kids that start out poaching at a very young age. Yeah. You know, 14, 15 years old. Yes. That kind of get brought on and cultivated and given like career positions within the organization. Yes. What are they getting caught doing that you would not, that they wouldn't have to go off to jail for a number of years, but that they have an opportunity to come, you know,

be out in the bush and work with wildlife, but work in a productive way. Yeah, of course. Well, you find them. Some were caught setting up snares. Others you find maybe they were hauling the game meat, you know, because if, for example, they poach a buffalo, they'll stay out in the field, you know, because if, for example, they poach a buffalo, they'll stay out in the field, you know, to dry it out and everything, then put it in sacks.

So they need guys to move the sacks out. So you find kids like that. So you might catch a kid who just outcarried the meat. And some of them don't even know if they're doing something that's illegal. So after we educate them and rehabilitate them, then we give them an opportunity. So they join our anti-poaching units. That's where most of the guys that you have hunting with you started from. So they started, they start in that poaching unit and as they progress, they go, they become trackers because also they have also they are very good with the area

because they've been there since they were young. And also they are very good trackers in following up, looking at the animal tracks. So it's a benefit. So you just show them that, you know, if you do it this way, it's legal and it's going to benefit you and your family instead of doing this, which you might end up in jail.

Yeah. So it's a better option for them. Yeah. Next, talk about what community development means and how does, like, what is the relationship between community development and anti-poaching? The word that we use is community-based conservation. So what we do is we help the communities in projects for them to see the actual benefits that come from protecting the wildlife. You know, the poachers come from the communities around. So if they can see a direct benefit that comes from preserving and conserving the wildlife that they have, or even helping us in finding out about the poachers. Like two months ago we got information about people with two muzzleloaders and they were caught before they could do anything. And it was because of the community informing our anti-poaching units about such people. So it's projects, it's schools.

We've built schools in this area. We've built health dispensaries. We are currently working on renovating one in the village that we went to in Lumbe. And we've set up water wells. We've supported children who have finished primary school, going into secondary school. So these benefits, which the community can see and touch,

they are tangible benefits that come from them partnering with us in protecting the wildlife and the area so that whatever that's got from hunters who come, that there's a percentage that goes back to the community. So it's a direct benefit to them. So in that way, they help us in being also custodians and fellow protectors of the wildlife, yeah. Do you find in the surrounding communities

that your work in that area has been effective? Like do people wind up having a positive attitude toward the wild landscapes that are here? Oh yes, yes. People are very positive, but as in everything, there's always a few characters who always find a way. Because you find it's something that they've been doing for generations and generations. To them it's just a way of life, poaching, illegal fishing, and illegal timber harvesting. So there's still a few characters who haven't,

it hasn't really gotten into their heads. But for the most part, the communities are very receptive and Very supportive of what we do over here. I want to back up a minute There's a thing I failed to ask you about you just brought up. Yeah, there's a big fishing component here Yes, because you're on a very large lake. Yes, there's a river system. Yeah, and there is legal fishing Yes, there is okay But you but you still patrol and you guys patrol and regulate the fishing. And where I live, it would be that we have game wardens hired by the different states

and the game wardens patrol the waterways. And it's checking licenses, checking what equipment you use, checking that you have fish you're allowed to have, you don't have too many, right? They're just doing that work all the time and they interact with fishermen. Yes. And that sounds like very similar to what you had here. It's basically the same thing.

We also, what we do is we facilitate the government game officers so that we go with them. And also you find that we have more of a feel of the area. The Game Scouts come and go, they get changed. So we have our teams with them, even on the water, and they check. You have to have a valid license and we have to check the type of fish you caught.

There's also the size of the net that you have so that you don't catch the small fish. So it's almost the same thing as you described. We have to do that on the lake and also on the river. And also even by doing that, it's also because poaching, if it can't come in on, if they can't come in on land, then they'll come in through the water. So by having patrols then we have a way of controlling the guys who would come and poach and then put it on a boat and go and go out. So it helps. Yes. Is there anything I missed that you feel like you should tell me about? Well not really Morgan.

Black Mambas. Oh, okay. Let's talk like Morgan Potter's not here. Okay. Morgan Potter tells us all about, we got a little worked up about Black Mambas. Just from hearing about them, reading about them. He's like, you'll never see one. Okay. Right away there's a damn Black Mamba right in the middle of the road.

Um. How many Black, like how many Black Mambas per day are you running into? This is a damn black mom right in the middle of the road. How many black, like how many black mommas per day are you running into? On a normal day, you wouldn't run into one. Okay, how many per week? Per week, okay. Like for the week I've had, I've run into two.

And one of them really chased us, you know. Yeah, it's a, so I didn't know, I had heard of black mommas, I knew they were bad or like I knew there was like a snake to be reckoned with. Yes. Um, they ride their neck up like Loch Ness Monster. Oh yeah, they stand with their, they cruise around with their head like up here. Yeah, they can stand on their tail Like literally stand like an attack snake. Oh, yeah, it is. It's quite aggressive very territorial chases people around

Can even chase the car it can even yeah, it can go after you. You'll never see one Yeah, here's the funniest part about the funniest part about we see a black mamba Yeah, he like the black m mamba honestly considers attacking our car. Yeah. Like he runs through his mind, he false charges the car. Yes. And then goes off, and then we drive off and we don't go a mile, and someone looks out

the side of the road, we're like, there's another one. And Morgan's like, no, that's a Cobra. A Cobra, yeah. Yeah, I think if you if you if you had to choose You're better off meeting a cobra than than than a black mamba. It's it's it's really it's we call it over here Sudden death, you know sudden death. Yeah sudden death, but you have traditional healers who say they can fix you up Fix you up, but you're never sure about it. The other snake we saw that seemed very benign, I know they're not but he seemed very like just a chill snake, we saw a puff at her.

Oh yeah, he's very chill. You know, he can even step on him and he won't do anything to you. But a black mamba, you stuttle it or you're just like in its surroundings and like it's coming back to its hole, like back here. It would really chase us away here, yeah. This one was going down the road, and we pulled up on it, and he turns and comes back toward the truck to attack the truck. It's not scared of anything, yeah.

That's the truth about it. I got a lot of respect for him. Yeah. Okay. But then you've been in this business 12 years. Yeah. You do mega patrols out here. You do long patrols out here. You've never been struck by one. Well, I wouldn't be here if I was. So, yeah.

That's proof. That's proof. He's never been struck by one. He's alive. I've never been struck by one. We've had close calls. Earlier this year, some of our guys were chasing a poacher and as soon as they got close to him, he turned around and was going towards the vehicle on his own because he had seen a black mamba. So when the guys got there, it stood up and so they also started running back. And it's very rare for it to happen.

But as soon as they get to the pickup, they find that there was another one close by. So it also stood up. So it was a bit of a crazy day. Luckily, no one was beaten. We have a similar animal in the Northern, we have a mountain range called the Rocky Mountains. And in the Northern end of the Rocky Mountains Mountains we have a bear called a grizzly

bear, you probably heard of grizzly bears. So people that live around there are generally very relaxed. They're like sure you see them, it doesn't mean it's gonna kill you. You just get used to it and then people come from far away and they go there and all they talk about is grizzly bears. And then people that live there get annoyed with them for talking about grizzly bears all the time. Where are those guys? Where are those guys about black mabas?

Oh yeah, but even the people around here who live around here, that's really one snake that they're really scared of that's the truth yeah so uh you can find a few brave people who are ready to confront it but most would rather just go the other way yeah it's it's really scary yeah that's the truth uh we uh there's a guy a honey guy that was beaten two weeks ago because sometimes they go and stay inside a beehive. So while he was opening it up, it struck him. And he... How the hell does it get into the beehive?

It goes up, it climbs up the tree because the beehive is on top of a tree. And goes into a hole. And goes inside there. It seems the bees don't mind him, don't mind it. So he opened it up and it struck him. And three hours later he was, he was dead. Yeah. And then for me three hours, I'm like, oh, okay.

It took a while because it's usually 30 to 40, 45 minutes. I know, but yeah, I was also surprised. Ah, three hours. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, so it's, it's a very dangerous snake. There are not so many, they are very rare. And they only come out early in the morning, during the day, and later in the evening, they go back. Yes, yeah.

Great, well thanks for the conversation. Okay, thank you. Thank you for your efforts on behalf of wildlife. Thanks for your efforts at making us seem more chill about the black mommas. I'm actually pretty chill about the black mommas. I like them. I have no problem.

Oh, yeah. Oh. It's this guy named Seth. Yeah, yeah. This guy named Seth running around here as a real baby about black mommas. Yeah, I'm sure it's a real adrenaline rush. Yeah, they're good for that.

They're good for that. They're good for that. It's like bungee jumping. This is an iHeart podcast.