The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 776: Sea Otters, Skunks, and Brain Matter | MeatEater Radio Live!

Episode Date: October 10, 2025

Hosts Brody Henderson, Steven Rinella, and Cory Calkins, talk with Heather Douville about her new MeatEater show, Our Way of Life, attempt to defend some Indefensible Laws, chat with Guy Groenwald about the state of the skunk fur market, and lay down judgement on a Hot Tip-Off showdown. Watch the live stream on the MeatEater Podcast Network YouTube channel. Subscribe to The MeatEater Podcast Network MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's firstlight, L-I-T-E dot com. Smell us now, lady. Welcome to Meat-Eater Trivias. Meat-Eater podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Meat-Eater Radio Live. It's 11 a.m. here at Meat-Eater H.Q. in Bozman, Montana. That's 9 a.m. on the Sea Otter.

infested water surrounding Prince of Wales Island. I'm your host, Brody Henderson. I'm joined today by the man every elk in Montana fears the most. Cory Calkins. I thought that was my cue. No, that's not you. We also have a very special co-host today that some of you might even recognize. That's right.

Steve Ronella's back in the house. Welcome back. Thank you, man. It's always fun to be here. Been a while. We got a big show today. We have Heather DeVille. She's going to talk to us about her life up in southeast Alaska.

And a couple of her new meat eater shows. Me, Stephen Corey, are going to lay out some indefensible laws that we're going to defend anyway. We've got some Primo hot tip-offs out of Wisconsin and some advice for husbands and fathers during hunting season. And in the spirit of full disclosure,

this is not actually live. We won't have any live chat feedback. And the reason for that is because the day we were supposed to record live, Phil's going to be out of town, nerding out on video games. Phil, you want to tell everyone what's so important that you've got to miss a live recording? Yeah, it sounds like you're making that up, but you're not, when you're watching this, Randall and I will be on a plane on our way to Nashville, Tennessee, going to Buckfest 2025, and Buckfest is also the grounds for the world championships of Big Buck Hunter.

So Randall and I will be there documenting it, making some, some, some, video content that you guys can look forward to soon. A bunch of non... Phil looks good with that black backdrop. I know. Go back to that for a minute. Oh, yeah. Good job over-emphasizing that. If he wasn't married, he'd be cleaning up right now. Oh, Steve, you don't. Have you played Big Buck Hunter, Phil?

I was never a big, like, light gun. Like, I didn't play... I didn't have a Nintendo's. I never played Duck Hunt, and I didn't spend enough time in bars before I had a kid to be, to get really good at Big Buck Hunter. So it was never... So this is a whole learning experience for me. I'm excited to check it out. Is Randall good at Big?

buck hunter uh i don't believe so i know cal cal hold some pride for his his his buck hunter skills i used to forbid my kids from playing in it yeah and my buddy jimmy dorn had a pizza shop and he had that in there and he knew i hated big buck hunter because i thought it taught bad ethics and i'd come in there to first need to do his hand my kids rolls a quarters just to antagonize me yeah i'm ambivalent towards it um i imagine you're gonna see a bunch of non hunters pretending their hunters there phil oh for i mean Yeah, most likely. Randall kind of, I think, is planning on dressing the part. I think he wants to go in full for slight camo and just hang out.

So we'll see how that goes. But we've talked to the guys putting it on, and they say it's a mix of hardcore real hunters and people who have never touched a gun in their life. So we're excited to meet all the people that are going to be there. We'll have fun. Thanks, pretty. It looks good with that black backdrop.

All right, before we get into the meat and potatoes of today's show, I need to let everyone know that the newest edition of our audio. original book series meat eaters american history the hide hunters 1865 to 1883 releases next tuesday on october 14th you can pre-order it now wherever you get um audio books audible apple books wherever you can get them um steve you want to give folks ideas an idea of what to expect from hide hunters like some some titillating tidbits about the life of a hide hunter yep for For those of you that have listened to or follow our Meat Eaters American History series, we've been focusing on different eras of commercial market hunters.

So we did the long hunters, which were the professional deerskin hunters, most notably Daniel Boone and his colleagues. Then from there, we jumped up to the Mountain Man Arrow, which was the Rocky Mountain Beaver Trappers. Big names from that era would be Jim Bridger, John Colter, Jet Smith. and that volume tracked up to 1840. So for the hide hunters, we're jumping ahead to 1865. 1865 is the year that the Civil War ended. And we're covering the years 1865 to 1883 when the last 15 million buffalo on the American Great Plains were shot out by professional buffalo hunters, which we call the hide hunters.

A very bloody time, very dangerous occupation, even though those people are much maligned now, and they're regarded as these great enemies of American wildlife, you have to begrudgingly, even if doing so begrudgingly, you have to acknowledge just an incredible skill set. It sounds funny to say it, but an incredible skill set. And I hesitate to say it, too, an unbelievable work ethic that propelled these guys out on the Great Plains to do the Great Buffalo Slaughter. So we cast some shade on them. We talk about their motivations. They were products of the Civil War. These are generally people that had no prospects in life. Poverty was rampant.

and the American history pushed them onto the plains where they were they killed 15 million Buffalo in a decade. Yep. It's an incredible story. And if we're there, we'll jump into whatever, we're still debating what we're going to jump into next. You haven't decided yet.

No, we might do something about the birds, the bird hunters. I know for a time you were thinking about whales, but you knew. No, not doing the whalers. I think that we might jump to, we might jump to Alaska during the Great Depression. Fur. Sorry. Aladdin, no.

It would be Alaska and we would cover possibly Klondike to statehood or we would cover the roaring 20s and end it at the stock market crash. Yeah. And to do about surrounding fur, right? The Alaskan fur trade during the real glory days when when huge amounts of cash were entering that state and coming into the hands of people who had never had a cash economy yeah yeah um all right so you've done three of these steve the the the long hunters mountain men and hide hunters and you can include the next one too if you want in this in this question i'm going to

ask you if you could go back in time and pick one of these eras and proficions to like go do which would it be and why hide hunters yeah yeah yeah that's surprising yeah um if i could do the the you know If I could do the time machine thing, I've always said that I would like to go back to the first Americans to hit the Great Plains, 20,000 years ago, 17,000 years ago, whatever. Man, but if I was really sitting there and I had to hit the button, the go button, I might go back and go with Boone, Daniel Boone the first time he went to the Cumberland guy and spent two years in Kentucky. Because that was still new territory. Like the hide hunters weren't in like new territory necessarily, right? No, no. When you get into the hide, we'll put it this way.

This is something we point out a bunch in our hide hunter piece. There were hide hunters that killed 10,000 Buffalo. There was an individual who killed 10,000 who lived to see Playboy magazine published. He lived to see the end of the Korean War. Automobiles. He lived to see the introduction of the Corvette. Wow. Nuclear subs.

and he was fighting Comanchees while killing 10,000 Buffalo on the Texas planes. It is this market hunting period that straddles. It perfectly straddles what we think of as yesterday and what we think of as today.

Yeah. You know, it's a crazy era. Kind of makes living through the creation of the internet not seem like such a big deal. There were hide hunters. who would who live to see the publication of a sand county almanac and who lived and who experienced a person theodore roosevelt campaigning against market hunters become president yep and start to think about

that no they like they sat on the they sat on the edge of something man yeah all right so order that book and listen to it and uh steve will figure out what the next one's going to be um forward we get into heather's interview you guys uh planning any big hunts that are coming up i'm solid kid from here and out for a while me too yeah i got a month i got a month a hot kid action kid antelope kid deer yeah that's that's fun though this is my favorite no no i wouldn't have i wouldn't have it any other way man yeah all kids all time speaking of kids i put some little kitty waiters on your desk oh i saw that thank you yeah we'll use those go looking for crowd cori are you done uh archery hunting or you get you know no no keep at it till the bitter end man it's only been a couple weeks we

still got a few more here in montana he's like kids what kids well my kids just on the cusp of being able to come with me yeah he'll go out and toot on the bugle a little bit but it's more of a nuisance than anything yeah uh so no i'm gonna get back out for but you got to bring him man oh yeah oh he loves it but yeah no selfishly going out any uh any close calls with bulls yet oh yeah yeah i tried to get a couple buddies into some elk that uh second week of the season i guess It would have been the third week of September, and we almost killed elk every single day. But they weren't, like, fired up like they typically are that way. Nope.

Have you drawn back yet? No drawbacks. Yeah. All right. Knocked a few. Let's get to the interview. I think Phil has a special drop here for Heather Duvill. Phil, you don't lay that down? Yeah, I put it in the script, and then I took it out because I didn't know if you guys wanted to listen to it.

No, of course. We'll hear it, man. We'll rate it. We'll rate it and see. Oh, I think this is one that I haven't played since you. You were last here, Steve. Oh, so you already, we've already heard it. It's the Fleetwood Mac one.

Oh, yes. I'm not familiar. All right. Oh, listen to that bass. For, love to forever. Life from Alaska, Fur and lava with ever, I hope there's fish is in the smoke. There we go.

Okay. Yeah, there it is. Nice. All right. For those of you who aren't familiar, we're going to be talking to Heather Deville. Her traditional name, Heather, I apologize if I butcher this stuff. Her traditional name is Kutink, and she belongs to the Shankwadai clan, which is Eagle Wolf. Did I get it right?

No. Okay. Don't worry about it, then. I spread you in the pronunciation, but I appreciate you trying. Thank you. Well, you can tell us. Let me get through this. I'm trying to get through this, Heather.

Let me get through it. You live on the ancestral lands of the Tlingot people in southeast Alaska, and Heather actively practices and shares the heritage and cultural traditions that have been passed down for 10,000 years. All right, so tell us how you pronounce that stuff. Yeah, my traditional name is Kutank, and I belong to the Shunquiti clan. I didn't do that bad Okay

You're on the right track It'd be like if I called him Brady If I call him Brady And he's like well it's actually Brody And then I go like well I wasn't that bad Right Exactly I pronounce

Pling it with a K But it's like a T HL Kling it And Yeah well Heather do it Like do it where you Because I know you

yeah there's a way you say it then there's a way you let people that wouldn't that aren't familiar with the language say it like but do it like how you do it if you were talking to if you were talking to an elder you know from your from your people yeah i would i would say fling it okay but then people people that are just kind of hacking their way through it's like a clinket yeah got it i'll try to get it right next time um it's not be confusing thank you Yep. You know, pretty funny is, well, we're going to talk about the show, but when the team was up here, you know, our dogs only know flinget commands, so they don't know English. That's great. So no one else can tell your dog what's up.

So if your dog's attacking someone and that person tries to say, stop, sit. Yeah, you got to yell at them and cling it. So the meat eater crew that was up here were learning all kinds of words. Yeah. Klingot dog commands. That's nice. They had to herd the dogs out of the scenes and in the house. Heather, I know you've been busy all summer putting up fish and sea otter fur.

And I think you've been out deer hunting already. Like what else do you got going on through the fall? What's the rest of the year look like for you? Yeah, this is really a, I think I would last join in the spring, which is like the emergence of new life and now we're entering fall, which is a quieter time and a more restful time. So I'm kind of grounding myself into a more balanced schedule. The salmon return.

The leaves are turning. You know, it's getting colder. I did get a deer last month. And one of my goals this fall and winter season is to practice my bark tanning. skills um so i actually got the deer and i tanned i successfully tanned the hide i have it here you you got it done already yeah oh wow i have to soften it a little but you know it's got a really you're kidding this is done with um tanning so like a tree skin and a deer skin will make leather yep and it smells really good and all of the

uh ingredients that you use can just go right back into the earth they're non-toxic organic so i was pretty proud um this is my first yeah man congratulations that's awesome that looks great yeah it's right and you guys shoot those deer in the head so there's no bullet holes in that in that hide yeah we try to shoot everything in the head um to like for deer we try to reduce waste yep It's not just awful because we eat the neck and we take the neck bones and make deer neck soup. And I have a funny story about the first time I learned how to hunt deer. Lay it on us. I had never shot anything in the body before because I just learned how to shoot everything in the head or like me right behind the ear.

So we were hiking up and, you know, I didn't learn how to hunt in. until I was almost 30. So my dad gave me a rifle and I was, I hadn't missed yet. And I was like, Dad, what if I was going to shoot a deer in the body? Because I know a lot of people from other areas, you know, shoot deer like in the side. I said, what do I do? And so he, we kind of stopped on our hike and he told me. So I was like, okay.

And I was, you know, pondering that. And we got to this muskeg. and there's a huge buck right across looking at me and it's like a four by five, the biggest deer I've ever seen. He's like, oh, shoot, shoot, yeah, okay. So I get ready and I'm aiming for its head and I was like, well, I'm just going to shoot it in the body

because then I'll for sure get it. And I dropped down and I shoot it in the body and it runs away and he screams like, what happened? And I burst in tears. And I go, I don't know. He's like, what happened? And I was like, I tried to shoot it in the body.

Well, he gave me a 22, Seth. So, I was the only rightful I had in the last year. And there's all this brush, right? And I just thought a bullet would blast right through brush. And he's like, you can never shoot through brush. And he didn't tell me that part. And I lost sleep for like a week. I could not stop.

thinking about missing that deer and it was big and shooting through brush. And so the learning experience for me. Well, it seems like you've got the deer hunting thing figured out now, though. Yeah. We try to skin them real close, but you don't want to skin them so close where you score the hide. So you definitely take your time and, you know, skin them nice if you're going to save the hides. and then you can bark tan, and, you know, it takes, like, a few days to, like, let the hair slip. And then about a week to bark tan, and it produces beautiful results.

And so now I'm, I just mixed up this morning a big tote of bark tannins because I'm going to try to do a hair on bark tan on a bare height that was gifted to me this spring. cool you need to make steve some buckskin britches out of those things i would like some buckskin britches yeah white ones yeah there you go all right heather um you got a couple couple new shows out on on the meat eater network uh our way of life which really digs into how you and your dad live up there in southeast alaska and everything you do out on the land and out on the water and that airs every Monday night at 6 on our YouTube channel, the Meat Itor YouTube channel. You got anything to say about the experience of making that show?

Oh, yeah. This was an incredible experience. I'm so grateful for Meat Eater, you know, sharing my story. And I really think of it as not my story, but this was a way for me to share a story that's much bigger than mine. for our culture and, you know, the people that came before me and also for youth. So there's going to be a place now where you can look up, you know, about sea otter hunting or processing a seal and find information, whereas previously there hasn't been a lot of

documentation on these processes. Yeah, yeah. I think it's one of the coolest things we've done a long time. It's great. It's awesome. The first episode launched last night, and I've just received an incredible amount of messages and phone calls and just all the love that I'm feeling from friends, family, and people that I don't know, you know, from all over is really overwhelming. I didn't really know what to expect. I was kind of having a heart attack like this week, nervous about it.

But I felt nothing but love and support. And I really, you know, I have a 10-year-old niece and she, you know, goes on social media and she talks about Taylor Swift and all these influencers, right? And I really wanted youth to be able to go on social media and go. on YouTube and see, you know, youth from here and see people like them and people they know practicing their culture and not thinking that you have to be like somebody else to be, you know, on YouTube or on social media and you can just be yourself. And we are ourselves, you know, my dad literally talks about having the runs

on our first episode. He's like, I forgot the cameras were even there. So it's really funny. If you don't want to watch sea otter hunting, you could fast forward to five minutes in and catch a really funny scene with the relationship between me and my dad is pretty funny to watch.

Yep, it's great. And the other show that you're in, The other show that you're in, Mediator Sheds, are you in the Shed right now? I am. I'm in my fur shop. I spend a lot of time in here in the fall and winter months. And that was such a fun episode.

That's where you do all your all you're working on first, like all the stuff you make. Yeah. Yeah. So previously, I did get the opportunity to share this on Sheds, which I wish I would have. Let me grab this. So my friends showed up.

with my dad last year and started building me this shed. So previously I was working out of my two spare bedrooms and my kitchen. So my whole house was full of supplies and machines and all kinds of stuff for working on furs. And my friends and family have been so incredibly generous and showing up and building me this space and I love this space. But until last year, I sewed everything by hand. So this was my thing that I carried everywhere. That was your equipment. Yeah. So I had a little nail clipper for threads. So you could take it on an airplane. Skin sewing needles. My thimble that I've been using since I was 12. You could see I reinforced the pad like three times. And so I want to also encourage people like you don't start like this with the shed, a Barbie shed.

You know, I started showing by hand. Every item I made by hand, it took hours. And I was working out of my house. So this feels surreal. I can't believe I have this shed. Great. Yeah. All right.

Well, thanks for checking in with us, Heather. It is great talking to. And I hope you have a good fall and good winter. Thank you, Heather. Congratulations on that skin, man. that looks incredible. I'm jealous of that. I got to check that out. Thank you. Yeah.

All right. Talk you soon. Take it easy. Thanks, Heather. Hunting big country isn't for the faint of heart. You got steep ground, long distances, and miles of crown land that aren't always easy to navigate. That's why Anex Hunt just got a serious upgrade for hunters in Canada. Now you can get nationwide coverage for less than the cost of a box of shells with major updates to crown land layers and new parcel boundaries where available.

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I've chased it from one end of the world to the other, grilling caribou steaks in the Arctic, butchering elk in the high country of the Rockies, drying fish in the head. headwaters of the Amazon. The main thing I've learned is that there's nothing better than knowing where your meat comes from. So when we set out to make jerky and sticks with our own recipes perfected on wild game, I wanted to start with the American Buffalo, an iconic North American native that's fed this continent for thousands of years. These are recipes I use in my own kitchen.

Not meant to mimic what's already out there. They're meant to showcase everything I've learned about good. meat from the wilds or from the ranch this ain't your typical phony gas station jerky it's american buffalo done right and it's just the beginning meat eater snacks from folks who know meat up next uh we've got a segment we've done a time or two in the past called indefensible laws uh where we're going to make the case for passing uh fishing game laws and regulations that some folks might consider indefensible but those folks are wrong because we're We're going to defend them and make a case for them.

So, Corey, you're up first. Oh, gosh, okay. Just cut, cut this one out, Phil. Why? Well, because this is coming from. Don't even float the idea. Don't even float the idea. I've heard Corey say this a number of times, so he's got to make a case for it.

Don't give it air. Yeah, this is coming from a very disgruntled, born and raised Montana in here in a room surrounded by folks from. I hope the FCC cracks down on you. Other states. But I'd love it if. game agencies, whatever state you might be in, and I think a lot of, you know, natives to their states would agree that some of these once or more than once in a lifetime tags maybe should be given to those native residents instead of just, you know, the folks who just moved in six months ago to be able to apply for some of those residents tags. Well, I think if you've been, like, if you did like, like, let's say, like 20 years in the state, you're cool.

Hmm. Or if there's like. Cumulative. Or let's say there's like. Your kids are in this boat. Let's say there's, like, five elk tag, bull elk tags available and it's like special hunt, special, like maybe like one of those for a native or something. No, no. Well, sure.

Yeah. One, no one. I'm really thinking, like, some of these critters that, you know, somehow they're not growing as fast as other animals like moose. Moose sheep. Yeah. The numbers are just going down. I'm into it. I just think you're cutting it a little like, I think that like 20 years is cool.

But as Brody alluded to, maybe just having like a hard. percentage of those going to a certain group of people in a bucket and I don't know you know obviously you have to the 20 year bucket you know what

hospital you were born in or whatever I think you get kind of entering into like it just gets a little hard to control you know if it's 20 years it's cool right it's easy it's just getting hard to draw those tags I mean I I can see I mean it's always been hard to draw oh but it's just getting harder and harder and harder

and hard by degrees though like how much harder is 0.04% for versus 0.025%. Oh, right. Well, twice. No one thinks about it like that. No, no. When you're looking at the oh, oh, oh, oh, you're like, ah, shit, they're all the same.

Like, they're not all the same. No. No. And my problem was I just didn't buy bonus points when I was guiding. I didn't think I'd ever leave the guide industry. So there was. Sounds like someone. Maybe there should be a law that you, if you screw up and don't play the game, you should be just out.

Yep. Well. Or maybe NATO should start accruing bonus points at birth. that'd be nice for a while you could buy your kids bonus points yeah so my kids my two year old had two bonus points yep and they got rid of that yeah but they kept the points that's nice yeah yeah all right anyway now what i've been telling my kids

here's the deal on this one i've been telling them because i'm doing all this if you draw when you start drawing moose sheep and goat and i don't get to come with you're paying me back for all that shit going back to when you were a baby you know what I'm saying oh yeah yeah yeah you get to go along no I got to go with my dad on his most likely once in a lifetime moose hunt a few years ago it was amazing yeah Steve doesn't seem convinced but I I drew I drew goat you know I'm glad I drew well chew all right Steve what

he got for us well you know I've been pondering this man and I was going to do one but I can't articulate it the other day I saw one of those Tesla trucks with uh with that uh he kind of had a Yosemite sammed out where he had like some like adventure stuff. Oh no. And he had a he had one of them rod tubes mounted to the and I was thinking like I could let it slide. I tried to

I tried to be like I didn't see that. I didn't see that but I can't get it out of my head. I felt like something died or something was born in that moment. Died for sure. But yeah. Something died or was born but that's not my rule. Okay. Because I haven't thought of what the law would be. My law

and it's totally defensible. Okay. I'm not a big, like, you know, I'm a state's rights guy generally, right? And I'm not for, like, the man coming down and, you know, busting everybody's heads about stuff. I think a good role for the federal government, a good use of Trump's time would be that he comes in and he says, he comes in and he says,

Hunter's Orange Laws, going forward is a hat. I don't care executive order where you're from yeah I like orange hat I like it yeah I agree with you on that one so that no matter where it's like during general firearm yep during general firearm not special seas is doing general firearm whatever your version of that is orange hat not all the vest the 400 inches then you're like you got your orange vest on but then you got your vinyl harness on then you put your backpack on you're like well technically I don't have 400 inches because it's all, and you're all worried, a hat. Wyoming. Hat or that. Wyoming, it's a hat. Yeah, minimal. Yeah, a hat.

Have it be a hat. Yep. I agree. A hat or less. Mm. Idaho and Alaska have no orange law. Right. You shouldn't make them have an orange law.

It's like you can't be more than a hat. Oh, I got you. That's what I'm. You're breaking the law. I'm kind of thinking about my law as I'm kind of like, I hadn't smoothed this all out the way I would have liked. No more than a hat. If you're more than a hat, they're going to deprive you of federal funding. Schools, highways, nothing.

Your state's cut off. Where's hot pink fall into this whole law? No hot pink. My daughter had made me order a hot pink vest. I send it back. I hope she gets a ticket. I hope she gets a ticket. Who's paying that one?

I'm going to take it off her lawn more money All right Buy executive order No more than the orange hat Or else no federal funding For anything Gotcha Poor kids

We should get that on the ballot Mm-hmm All right Mine I don't know if it's defensible or not I don't think No do it You're gonna get some people

You're gonna get some yeah what about Yeah They're gonna be like Yeah what about Right But just go with it. I don't think you should be allowed to shoot any mule deer doze or antelope doze anywhere, ever. Because like drought, winter kill, like those species are always like one year away from disaster.

Always, always. Constantly. And we've just seen places where killing mule deer doze, like over time has had disaster effects on like regional deer herds. Run with it. You're going to have some naysayers. You're going to have some whatabouts, but run with it. Like, if you need meat and, like, I'm all for it, there are, like, here in Montana, you can shoot, I don't know,

10 whitetail does if you really want to. If you got a good gas budget. Right. Well, yeah. But there's, like, ways to get meat. And I just don't think anyone needs to be shooting. Mule deer does is the main thing. But I think antelope, too.

because they're just like on the edge all the time and in a lot of places there's a general decline in antelope numbers like tell us how you about your antelope hunt and experience back in the day like what you guys used to do they're back to it now we used to go we'd go out two of us to go out east to the eastern part of the state where because you get all the dough tags right so yeah how many do tags would you guys we would go out there we would leave the truck our rule was you leave the truck you come back with two You leave the truck, come back with two. You leave the truck, come back with two. Every year. Yeah. Two hunters, six antelope. Then, then all of a sudden it's like, whoa, there's not that many antelope around. Then it becomes hard to draw a permit.

And all of a sudden, now they're like, hey, kill all the doles you want. Right. Yeah. Two dollars per. Yeah. And then let me, let me crystal ball this. In a couple of years, it'll be, there's no antelope around. Exactly.

Because there'll be a bad winner. And it won't because they're overgrazing. It won't be an overgrazing thing. It'll be a weather issue. Yeah, and a combination of shooting too many doze for a few years in a row. No, I can see it. You're going to have a lot of pushback on that one. It's not like mine.

Yeah, like I could kind of see an exception on like private land for like crop damage tags where you get a bunch of animals concentrated in a small area. But that would like be the only thing that I might be willing to to stretch it on. So there you go. Mm-hmm. I wish we had a chat going on so people could be. weighing in on this. Don't get me started on how many years in a row I haven't drawn an antelope tag.

I'll tell you a secret that people aren't going to like when they hear it either. Don't do that. No, no. I get antelope tags and don't, antelope dough tags and I don't use it. He's like the pee to people. Yeah. He's like the people in Florida that are buying all the bear draw stuff so they can sit

out the hunt. Taking away opportunities from little kitties. Oh, wow, man. He's like subverting the will of the state agency. Like that dough is going to live that. C. C. She should come down on him, man. That's terrible. All right.

I'll get some hate for that one, but that's okay. All right. So we got another interview coming up. I would just, yeah. Glad the chats turned off. Only done it once or twice. We got our next guest coming up.

Guy Grownwald from Grownwald Fur and Wool out of Minnesota. Illinois. Illinois. Sorry, Steve told me Minnesota. Well, then I corrected myself. I didn't hear you. And this is like fur and trapping related stuff. So Steve's going to roll with the interview.

So here we go. As Brody said, we're joined today by Guy Grownwald from Grownwald Fur and Wool. Guy happens to be joining us from overseas. He's over in Europe right now. But we worked out the time zones and he's going to join us. And the theme, what we're going to talk about is how there came to be,

why there is. and an explosion in skunk you heard it right skunk hide values um some historic highs right now being paid for skunk hides and if you follow the fur markets and i always do just because i think it's fun and i used to like trap a lot um and sell stuff uh there's always these little bright spots in the fur markets and um and i can't think of any time my life when there's ever been a bright spot around skunk hides but guys gonna guys gonna explain it all to us guy in your whole career skunks have always been a marketable furbearer right like there's always been some market for skunk fur no no i mean there was a time where i think we destroyed like 20

000 skins out of our freezer we just uh we had stored them for 25 years and we thought it would never come back oh it was that bad because the reason i said that as i thought and and thanks for correct to me i always thought there'd always been some level of a novelty trade in skunk that kept the market alive but it was it was you know it was so small, you know, at one time that, you know, it just, you know, and we had, you know, some of the off grades, you know, you just, there was just no way to, uh, to market them in the, uh, novelty market that maybe took a couple thousand skins a year. Got it. Okay. Okay. So where, where a skunk price has been hitting lately? And, um,

and also, you know, before you answer that, maybe do this. When, uh, when you guys buy, you got, you guys buy from trappers, you buy from hunters, primarily trappers. When someone brings you a skunk, what do they bring in you? Just explain that product because people hear skunk fur and they think like, oh, it must smell bad, you know. Okay, so I'd like to differentiate. So the first thing is, is there is going to be, for most skunks this year, very little difference between just bringing us the tail and bringing us the entire skin with the tail. There will be very little difference in price, if any. And the only reason, as far as selling to my company, that you would want to leave the, you know, the animal intact.

and not remove the tail is basically if it's a black hide or almost all black, okay, because then it'll be sold into the novelty business. And even the last couple years before the tail business started, you know, the novelty business was kind of good. So, you know, skunk were starting to creep up as far as value. So right now, you know, there's still a market for novelty skunks. And, you know, with tails, you know, most of them have to have tail. And, you know, we have thousands of skunks that are placed now without tails because we can sell the tails, but we can't sell enough of the hides. And real quick, give me a, when the novelty trade is good and you have a well and you have a properly put up skunk for, what would that skunk, what would that skunk for be selling for?

You know, maybe 20 bucks, something like that for a really nice one, you know, perfect tail, you know, big size, something like that. Okay. But, you know, the poor ones, you know, the novelty business, you know, you just couldn't move them. So, you know, it could be a zero. But, you know, before the, before the tail thing came, you know, even a good one without the tail, you know, with the tail, obviously for novelty, it was maybe $20. Okay, okay. And so when guys are, when you're buying just for the tails, and we'll get to what's happening with them. But when you're buying just for the tails, you're buying, you want the tailbone removed.

We want the tailbone removed. And we want it like it's stretched and dried, just like any other skin that you would stretch and dry. Or like if you stretched and dried the skunk skin, you want to do the tail. You want to remove the fat. I mean, if you're going to catch a hundred skunks this year, I would buy a little borax. Borax works a little better than salt. And, you know, you don't typically put salt to dry a hide as far as the fur bearer goes. But a little borax or a little salt on a tail is probably not a bad idea after you take the, after you take the flesh off.

So you're taking, they're, let's just focus on the tails, I guess. So, you're taking the tail. You're cutting the tail off at the base of the tail. Yep. You're pulling, you're removing the bone. Then you're scraping all the excess fat and muscle off. So you scrape it down to clean leather, clean skin. Which shouldn't take you more than a minute.

Shouldn't take you more in a minute. And then you're tacking it out. So you're opening that thing out on a board and tacking it out. Yep. Or putting a little screen across it or anything just to kind of keep it flat. And make sure that you go all the way to the tip because the longest white fibers are on the tip. So you want to make sure you go all the way to the end. And then you dry it down. And if you want to add a little borax on there to help it dry,

that's fine. That's, that's probably a pretty good idea. Especially, you know, if you're going to do any kind of quantity, you know, that would be a really good idea. You're not going to have any hair loss. You're not going to have any putification, you know. So it's just, it does a little nicer job because that leather on the, on the, on the tail is a little thicker and just it'll dry it down faster. Okay. We'll get in a minute to what some of the, what I deemed to be like pretty crazy price is being paid for skunks right now. But explain to folks, where are these skunks going and why weren't they going there before? Well, they just, they're going for, you know, Hasidic strimals, the hats, the Jewish hats

for Orthodox Jews. Can you pull one of those up real quick, Phil? Do we have that technological? Yeah, it'll take me a sec, but I can do it. Go ahead. Go ahead, guys. And they're just, they're just, they just didn't use them. I mean, they find a, you know, a fiber.

that they really like and they use it and it works well they want something that's real long they want something that's kind of stiff and uh they want something that kind of waves and uh when they dance or you know when they move around and so yeah that's that's what they're looking for we're looking at home we're trying to pull a strimal up right now okay I think we pulled one up last there it is yeah and so where how are how is the skunk is the skunk like how is a tail being employed in that hat it's it's it's they're just using the fibers but how are they getting them in there like like like what are they hooking it to there it's a it's an intricate process there's glues and there's interwoven and yeah it's it's a real i mean those aren't you know

three hundred dollar hats you know how many how many tails to make one hat uh i think um for the really good ones maybe 20 16 20 or something okay and you say that's a $300 hat. No, I said it's not. I mean, it's thousands of dollars. Okay. So, but why did, are some strimals, 300 bucks and then some are thousands based on I don't think anything's 300, but

you know, some of them are definitely a couple thousand bucks. I see. You know, a little cheaper. So that is like, is it fair to say, I don't want to put words your mouth, is it fair to say that this is sort of like a trend? This is a trend with that style of hat?

It is, but, um, you know, this is not like necessarily like a typical fashion trend. You know, this could be used for, you know, for years. I mean, they've used that same hat that you had up there,

you know, has sable tails in it. And they've used sable tails for years and years. And there's, and underneath it, they use fissure tails. And, you know,

there's, they, and they've used them for years and years and years. And they do, though, um, sometimes change. They do sometimes change the look a little bit.

Yeah, they go a different round. Sable tails get more expensive. They more use. more of this or more of that. But they have used tails for years and years. They just haven't used skunk tails ever before.

Are most these hats being sold in Hasidic communities in the eastern U.S.? Or are these being exported to Hasidic communities in Europe and Israel? Where are they winding up? They are. Some of the strimal is

all over, but probably the skunk is mostly just in eastern U.S., you know, Brooklyn and Jersey. got it got it got it and then when people if a if a consumer is buying a strimal is is a consumer shopping just by look or are they shopping where like like if you're if you selling if you sell strimals are you advertising it as to its contents or is it people just buy it because they like the look or are they going in and saying like I want one with skunk I want one with say oh no you I mean there's I mean I mean I

I think even a pretty casual observer could see the difference and the difference in quality. The longer hair, just how much nicer it looks. I mean, I've seen them in person. And, yeah, I mean, it's kind of the bigger the better, really. Yeah. My question was very clear. And you might not know the answer to this. Does the buyer, is the buyer aware of what fur was being used?

Or do you think it's just, you're just aware of the look and you like the look? I think they're more aware of the look. I see. Yeah. They're just like, wow, that looks, you know, that looks a lot more, you know, whatever you want to call that. Yeah. All right. So let's talk about, let's talk about prices.

This is where it gets kind of interesting. You know, I remember in the years I trapped, you know, I mean, like skunks, man, you know, three, four bucks, right? So what could people expect this coming as we're coming into the, as we're coming into the, as we're coming into the fall, coming into the trapping seasons. What could people expect for a good skunk tail and what makes a skunk tail good? We're going to be 50, 35, and 20, depending on how good the tail is. Okay. 50, 35, and 20.

And 20. And then if it's, if somebody brings in a tail and it's completely black, it's worthless. Okay. Now, if you'd left that on this, on a skunk, you know, and had the whole skunk. and it was a nice skunk, you know, just a little bit of white, you know, the skunk might be worth 15 bucks. Okay, because that can be used as a novelty skunk. But if they, if it's got a lot of white on it, you might as well just chop it off. Hmm. Okay.

So what makes, when you say a lot of white, like try to help someone understand. So if they're looking at the totality of the tail and they're seeing that like 50% of that tail is white, where does that sit? That's probably, bro. That's probably a $50 scone. I mean, if it's, but the only thing is, like, sometimes we have to look at a few other things. Like, the ends, they could be, like, it sort of looks like the fibers are, like, cut off at, like, three inches. Yep. That could, that could also mean it's not worth anything.

Can you see me pretty good? I can see a little bit. But that's probably a, that would be, you know, 30, 35 bucks probably. that's a pretty nice that's a pretty nice that's a 35 oh this one kind of feels like a seven dollar tail now we're looking at now 35 yeah I'd say maybe maybe even a little better than that mm that's a pretty nice somewhere yeah they're all yeah dude I got to tell you man if I was if I was still uh if I was still just like a Michigan kid with a bunch of traps dude I would be going nuts.

I would be going nuts this fall. Yeah, well, you know, I'm certain that, you know, there's going to be more skunks trapped this year. You know who's getting real excited right now is turkey hunters? Yeah. Because like all those with fur prices being down for a long time. Sure. And you see these explosions of possums, skunks, raccoons,

and you see like declines in ground nest. bird populations that line up with those explosion and mid-sized predators, small mid-sized predators. It could be pretty good news for birds, too, if there's some interest. What other, oh, sorry. If you trap skunked, you know, you're going to catch all those other items as well.

You know, scones and you're going to have an easy time getting permissions when you go and say, can I trap skunks? They're probably going to be like, uh-huh. Give us a quick little snapshot. last last thing we'll hold you here for give us a snapshot of of firm market in general like like going into the going into the the 25 26 season what's the forecast i think i think i would start with skunk actually and i mean the biggest question we get asked by everybody is this thing going to

last okay and i think it's very similar to the beaver market you know three years ago when the beaver price went way up um you know i i think that we all thought there is no way. We knew what the usage was. It's a very good market. The Beaver, you know, hat market is still very good. It's just that trappers went out and caught way more than we possibly thought they were going to catch. And so the market got a little depressed. I, you know, there's two types of markets that go down. One is because nobody's using the product. And one is because they're producing too much. I mean, I like, I'm much more, I like a market that's, you know, being produced too much rather than a market that's not being used because it means

I can still sell it. So I think the skunk thing, you know, we'll certainly start out hot. We need a lot of skunks. And we'll just see how aggressive trappers are. And if they're super aggressive, you know, if you have extra skunks, you know, stunk tails, what do you do with them? You know, nothing. So, you know, we'll figure it out as we go.

But for right now, we'll start off hot. I think last spring, you know, when we ended up, you know, buying, you know, we run all routes for Beaver, which is, you know, into, you know, April and May, the market was very difficult. You know, we couldn't hardly sell a muskrat in April, May. We had a very difficult time selling. Raccoon in April, May, China's market because of tariffs, you know, the economy there was horrible. You know, all those items, wild mink. I mean, you just didn't hardly want to buy it. You know, the guys brought their beavers. They had trapped those, and that market had gone down. So you were buying all

this stuff, and you couldn't sell any of it. So compared to what the market ended up last year, you know, if you take those prices, which were, you know, which were, I'll acknowledge, they were pretty bad. I mean, I would say almost every item is up. You know, wild mink will, you know, certainly they'll be double what they were last year. I mean, they're still not going to be great, but, you know, you can probably see some $12 males, which is, you know, much higher than it was last year. I would say musk rats, you know, they were, they were unsaleable, you know, at one time last year. They're definitely stronger. We've sold a few rats recently. Heavy raccoon, you know, the semis are not so great, but, you know, some of the heavies, you know, it's just an item that's

not produced that much anymore. You know, Wisconsin, Northern Iowa, Southern Minnesota, Nebraska, Dakota's, you know, that coon is still a bit in demand. So, yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit more positive than I was, maybe even at this time last year, as far as the market on most items. Coyote market is still, you know, very, very difficult. But most items, they're certainly going to be a market for and, you know, go out and trap them. And, you know, if you're trapping skunks, you know, you might as well, you know, trap some of the other stuff. You know, some of the, you know, raccoons, you know, obviously, you know, look for the better stuff. You know, it's the stuff with holes, the stuff that's discolored, you know, things like that are going to have very little value.

But, you know, most stuff will, most things will be, you know, a little better than last year. Okay. Last, last question. Are there going to, are there going to be $1,000 bobcats again this year in the right places? Yeah, sure. I would say so. Yeah. Bobcat market, we're, you know, we're pretty well sold out of better bobcats. So, yeah, market is pretty good on those as well. Excellent, man. All right, Guy Grownwald. Thanks for joining, man. Good luck on skunkine. Hey, thank you very much. Talk to you. All right.

Does that get you excited for trapping season? Well, I don't, you know, I just keep my stuff and use it for stuff, hats and whatnot. But I'm telling you, dude, if I was like, if you could go back, if I was like me as a senior in high school. And I knew that I could be those prices on skunks, I would be going. Because they were a nuisance catch for you back then. I'd be going gangbusters. You, no, you tried to like, you did your best to avoid them. Yeah.

I would be going, just to be able to be like to try getting them. Right. I would be going absolutely gangbusters. You're probably some trappers that are going. Oh, yeah, dude, because you can like talking like a bunch of day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's just the tails.

Right. I would be going nuts. Cool. Something new. That's my whistle for that. Do that, Phil. You're probably good at it. Nope.

Oh, can we plug the live to her? At the end. Oh. Let's do it at the end. Arkansas sold out. Fayetteville sold out. We still got stuff to go through here. Well, I don't think we're done.

I was just going to butt it in there. How was my interview? Did it go too long? No, no, we're fine. Perfect, man. Need you on more of these. Hunting big country isn't for the faint of heart. You got steep ground, long distances, and miles of crown land that aren't always easy to navigate.

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The long sit starts here. Head over to firstlight.com and get cold front ready. That's first light, L-I-T-E dot com. Time for a hot tip-off segment. Since it's that time of year when a lot of you out there are about to get accused of abandoning your husbandly and fatherly duties, not me. It doesn't happen to me, but I know a lot of you, it's a problem. We got to, oh, wait, did I jump ahead? Yep.

Oh. Jumped ahead. Sorry. Number six. No, Steve's skunk questions. No, I know. I just, we've got a bonus hot tip-off. We'll get to that.

My bet. It's hot tip-off time where we decide which two hunters has the best kernel of hard-one knowledge and expertise. this week, the winner is going to get a bench made meat crafter. You want to pull it out, Corey? Meat crafter 2.0 and both flavors of our new jerky right there. Steve,

you want to hold one up? Classic pepper. What am I holding here? Oh, yeah. So the winner's going to get that stuff. Classic pepper and Hawaiian tariaki. Winners getting that stuff. Genuine buffalo meat. And both contestants are going to get a copy of

the new effed up Old Trucks calendar. It's signed, which makes it very valuable and rare. Collectors Edition. Yep. And today's hot tip-off is a special Wisconsin edition, the cheese curd edition. We've got Ryan Beagle versus Kevin Hall. Phil, you want to roll the tape. Ryan Buttrock. Hey, folks. Ryan coming at you here from Wisconsin. I've got a hot tip off this week. It's a big for your out-of-state hunts

when you have to cross lines and get the brains out of the skulls for CWD reasons. Pack your cordless drill and you can either bring your own little 14-gauge wire with a j-hook at the end or if you're in a pinch

in the old-school tent stake and take your cordless drill stick it in the back of the skull and you're a rim around. It'll come out in goops, dump it out, take your standard issue water bottle or if you're a high roller, get the squeezy one with the nozzle on the top from QuickDrip. Dunker in the back here, give her a squeeze, shake it out, reamer again, back and forth until you get all that stuff out of the brain cavity. It comes out like a goop, but you got yourself a legal skull for crossing state lines. That's brilliant.

All right, what's the next one, Phil? I like that one. Hey, me dear crew. This is Kevin coming at you from Wisconsin. For my hot tip, I'd like to discuss a dedicated kill kit. So when I'm preparing to go on any Western hunt, what I like to do is take one of these gallon-sized vacuum-sealed bags, and I'll place my game bags in there,

along with a couple of zip ties. my hunting license and hunter safety card. Maybe throwing a couple of rubber gloves. And I always keep a dedicated skinning knife with extra razor blades all inside this bag. I'll throw it on the vacuum seal here, pull all the air out of it. And once that's done, I now have a dedicated bag that I'll leave in the bottom of my pack and it's only going to come out once I successfully harvest an animal.

Hot tip for you. Man, it's a tough one. It's a tie, dude. It's a tough one. You know what he should do with that Vaxieler? You ever do this with your kids? Like when we're going somewhere, I'll take their coming home close. And yes.

Vaxil they're coming home close. Then they never get into them. There's a bonus hot tip. And their head doesn't exist anymore once you Vaxieler clothes. man I've lost usage for my vac sealer I don't like putting meat in there anymore so that might be a good way of microplastics shrinking your taint no I just have a hard time

getting every single one to seal correctly and then the meat doesn't last as long compared to butcher paper and wrap your paper I feel like I don't need to keep my license and my hunter safety card in there with that stuff I can see putting your tag in there yeah tag some states but that they can't you can't ding them on that I'm just saying I'm just making observations.

It's a brilliant idea to get the brain. It probably compresses those game bags down nice, so they're taking up less space in your pen. Yeah, no, I know. But, man, I'm weighing in. I'm going with the skull cleaning thing. Because I've used, like, a piece of coat hanger. Oh, yeah.

I'm going to try that. Here's why I'm going. Here's why I'm going brain slurry. The Kill Kit thing, I like it, but it's a pack. Packaging scheme. Yes. Not a scheme. It's a packaging.

It's a packing strategy. Yes. Which is cool. Yep. But it's a package. It's like, it's like, it's all stuff you'd already think to bring, but here's how to like pack it. You might have it in a little stuff sack or so or in a pocket in your backpack.

It's a different way to do it. So he's pitching us on how to pack it. Yep. Yep. The other guy with the brain slurry, that's a legit pain in the ass. Mm-hmm. Messy. Oh.

So. he's introducing a you know all due respect i've heard that before well i i it's makes it more efficient but he's introducing a whole concept yep so i'm going to go with that and everyone's got a drill laying around so yeah yeah i mean i've heard that the idea to vac seal your food and everything if you're really trying to compact your backpack if you're going on a multi-day hunt or whatever so that one wasn't new to me but using the tent stake on a drill for the brain matter. That one was new to me, so I'm going for the brain matter, splatter. All right, man, we got a winner.

Ryan, you're the winner. Hey, congratulations. Congratulations. Hard one. But Kevin, you still get a calendar because your tip was pretty good, too. Yeah, hard one. So now we can jump ahead to the, and Corey, we'll get their contact and all that stuff to get that stuff out. Oh, for sure.

Cool. All right, we got a bonus hot tip for you today since I'll read it again. A lot of you out there are going to get accused of abandoning your husbandly and fatherly duties. So we got a very special bonus hot tip that we felt was worth its own segment. Let a rip, Phil. Hi, my name's Ashley. We live in Wisconsin. We're new to the area.

I'm a wife of a new-ish-to-hunting dad. And we listen to the podcast every now and again. and we thought we would give a hot tip for a tip off from the wife's perspective. If you need, here's my tip, if you need more time because you haven't filled your tags yet, but you're worried that your wife will get mad because she's stuck alone with the kids again. Uh-huh. Here's my tip. It's five, five tips to get your wife to be totally.

totally fun with you going back out in the stand. Number one, get her a coffee, set her up for success. Get her a coffee, clean the kitchen, make lunch, plan for dinner, like take out, take out the meat to thaw, plan for dinner, make lunch, get her a coffee, clean the kitchen, and get a new activity for the kids. Coloring books. New markers. Yes, you already have markers, but we like new ones. Fresh ones. Activity for the kids. Plan an activity for the kids. Plan for dinner. Make lunch. Get her coffee. Clean the kitchen. She'll never be mad at you for going out again. Because you still haven't gotten your... That's a good woman right there, man, because she's like laying out her expectations. Right. Yeah. No, that dude doesn't have to guess. Okay, goodbye. Um, good point. Perfect.

I mean, it's just like, don't be a goober and just leave without, like, doing what you're supposed to do. Or, or, yeah, or you say, like, I get it. This is annoying. What could I do? Exactly. Like, I get it. Like, I could get the whole, like, I can see from your perspective, this is, like, a big ask. What can I do one short term?

Yep. To help out. And what, in long term, what can I do to, like, a little payback? Yeah. But I feel like you got to be careful because you, like, can't, like, get this thing where you like work yourself in a corner and you can't go even well right

when his kids get year after year after year when his kids get older though here's his solution if this is a thing this thing for young dads you if you take all the kids with you no one will ever get mad at you

exactly you're you come home a hero every time and they don't have to be of hunting age no right if you take them all with you, you could be like, I'm taking the kids out and I'm going to throw them out of a treat. Have fun. Yep. It's like, if you take them all with you, no one is ever, ever going to get mad at you. Yeah, and you can be preemptive about it. You could take them camping over the summer, like before hunting season and give the spouse a break for a weekend. Sure. Then you're

ahead of the game. People love their kids, but there's a lot. Most people are like, dude, if you're going to take them and go away for a couple days please yes then you don't have to worry about anybody being mad but ashley made some great points uh so thanks for sharing ashley we're also going to give you one of the signed calendars uh and and and your husband could put that up in the garage and like mark times when you should be taking care of the kids instead of you coffee check kitchen check yeah markers check lunch use that calendar the way it's supposed to be used meat thawed i like that little detail that's that's yeah that's a big one break out that burger you know that bird is thawed out.

Thanks, Ashley. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, thanks, everyone for joining. That's the end of this week's show. We'll see you guys next week, next Thursday on October 16th, and everything's going to be live, so the chat room will be back, and we can talk with you guys as we go. So thanks, everyone, for tuning in.

Our crew at Meat Eater has centuries worth of collective experience procuring and preparing meat, hunting, butchering, preserving, cooking it for ourselves and our families. I've chased it from one end of the world to the other, grilling caribou steaks in the Arctic, butchering elk in the high country of the Rockies, drying fish in the headwaters of the Amazon. The main thing I've learned is that there's nothing better than no. knowing where your meat comes from. So when we set out to make jerky and sticks with our own recipes perfected on wild game, I wanted to start with the American Buffalo, an iconic North American native that's fed this continent for thousands of years. These are recipes I use in my own kitchen.

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