The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 810: The Perfect Country and Western Song

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Steven Rinella talks with Reid Isbell, Dan Isbell, and Clay Newcomb. Topics discussed: Hosting MeatEater's God's Country podcast; Music Row and where music is made; yet another North vs. South thing; professional song-writing skills; a song about a mule; and more.  Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Music row. We're kind of in between them. 16th and 17th is the legendary music row in Nashville, and they just run parallel to each other. One way this way on 16th, one way that way on 17th. So fair to say hundreds of the songs you know have been touched. Thousands. Thousands have been touched on this street. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And not only that, let's get down to brass tacks. Okay. The building, it's a music building. Indeed. A lot of history with it. The room is a music room. I'm just trying to establish our credentials. Allegedly.

This is a legit studio. I mean, this was a vocal booth. If you were to pull this down, you'd see a big glass window where artists converse with producers on what to play, what to see. Like to have all those levers are going on place. We call them the faders. Knob jockeys. I wouldn't use that loosely.

Dolly Parton's been in this building. Indeed. Record it. Yonette's been in this building. George Jones has been in this building, allegedly, allegedly. Together, maybe. Together, maybe. I don't know.

Maybe in this room. I'm not one to say. Hiding. So I'm just establishing our credentials that we're in a music room. Oh, baby. Absolutely. I would venture to say you're in the heart of the country music creation. Yeah.

Steve. This is why I've brought you here. No, I brought you here. No, I brought you here because. I mean, arguably, we brought both of you. No, because this is. I brought you here. This is the American South,

and this is where music is made. Steve has a beef with me because one time I said music is important to people in the South. That's all I said. But he said it's not in the North was the implication. He's like, well, you don't understand.

Music's very important to people in the South. It's kind of like fried fish. Well, prod fish is very important to people in the South. What I was trying to say was that like? Is it important to people in the North? More important.

Fried fish. More important. No chance. Yeah, questionable. It's more important. And I just brought up, I'm like, go tell the people in Motown about how special music is in the South. Well, you can say to count with that. I don't want to burn our time up.

These guys got a hard out. We have a song to write. It's my kid's Christmas play. That's the only reason. Otherwise, I'd stay all day. Okay. That is important. I thought you had like big time country music stuff to attend to.

Not to Christmas play. Absolutely not. I wouldn't be wearing a college shirt if it wasn't for my kids' Christmas play. Here's what I want to do. I want to give people a glimpse, but into what you do for a living and what happens on this street. But can you guys touch on your sort of your day job, right?

Like your career and what you do in music writing. Sure. What services you provide and how that world works very quickly? Yeah, we're lunch pail songwriters, what we like to call them. And we write three, four days a week right here on Music Row.

Sometimes we write in this room. Now we write three. or four days a week. There was a time we were writing five days a week, sometimes doubles. Okay. Yeah, but we've got publishers or pluggers that we write for or signed to. I'm signed to 50 Egg, Dan, signed to Sony. And they schedule out our rights way in advance.

And so... They schedule it. Yeah, we do too. We do a lot of that too now. But most of the time they do, and we'll look at, on Sunday, you'll look at your calendar for Monday and see that you're writing with this ex-writer and this ex-writer at Sony at 11 o'clock. and you roll up at 10.45, do a little chat and say, what's up, catch up with everybody,

heading to the room at 11, and do a chatting for about 30 minutes again. And then you start scrolling through ideas and seeing what artist, if you've got buddies, that's cutting a record. I don't think you can see any secret. We're friends with Luke Combs. So a lot of times people will come in and sit down with us and go, hey, man, when's Luke cutting? Oh, man, he's two years out. Well, that's off the table, right? There's no sense and even trying.

So that's how you move beyond that. So if you're six months out and you go, oh, man, he's looking for a song about hunting, then this guy might go, that's crazy. I have this hook praying in a deer stand or whatever it is. Tidal idea. And then we're praying in a deer stand, dude, that's way better than what I got for you. Okay, we'll see. We can write that if you want to.

Praying in a mule saddle. So why, okay. So I brought clay down. Yeah. Oh, you brought him. I brought clay down. It's debatable. To workshop, because I wanted to see you guys in work.

So the best I could come up with, I'm not a songwriter. Sure you are. I was going to pitch you guys. I was going to be the guy that comes in. I'm going to pitch you on an idea of a song that you could develop about how mules are better than horses. Okay. Now, look, I'm got to be honest. I don't know a whole lot about mules.

That's why I'm here. I can give you the bullet points. Okay. And to be honest, we don't know a lot about horses either. Well, this is a play his lifetime. He needs a song to go with this because this is his lifetime battle anyways. Okay. So why I need your help?

He's a mule apologist. You're the artists, and we are the songwriters helping, which is what we do. And I'm the producer. Well, I need one for sure. More like produce bag. You're playing the part. So it's a producer. You're the producer.

Yeah, so this is like really high stakes for me. I need a song that carries... Now I want to do it. That carries the data, the facts, but also the culture, the attitude, the fire and the bones of the overlooked meal people. You are a passionate about this. Yeah. So you know about Columbia, Tennessee, right? Yeah, yeah.

That's where we live. Miltown, you know, race brothers. We got everything down there. Mealtown coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's pretty slick. I've never, I haven't been there.

You can probably Grand Marshal it someday, dude. Well, easy. We can put you in for that. I mean, we can, you can put your mules in and there's a meal competition. Oh, they're already getting their guitars that way. I mean, they already ripped the song. They're lunch pot. They're lunch, they're lunch, they need to be home by dinner times.

Yeah, for lunch. You can get back by two, man. The song needs some, like, real specific data that a mule or horse person would be like, dang, he's right. But it also needs, like, some catchy hook that. Put that cable on. Okay. So, so here's the scoop.

For every hundred horses, there's probably two mules in the country, number one. I think that's a lot. That's a great starting line. Okay. Yeah, can I have that? You just going to put that line in there? Well, it gets, I'm just saying it's way better than that. You know what I mean?

Well, but it's got to, it's got to bring the horses. Is it for every hundred horses? Well, I don't want to say. Let me give it the house. I got it. Okay. I know I was saying there ain't but two. A mule.

Every hundred horses, there ain't but two mules. He's already got it. Three hundred horses. There ain't but two mules. Well, that, now they're thinking we're dumb, though. I mean, we got, it's like, it's got a, it's got a, we need more than 45 minutes. We need more than 45 minutes. specialness. But a mule is a four-wheel drive horse.

Okay. Like that's kind of a thing. Mules are sure-footed, like way more sure-footed than a horse. They have more stamina than a horse. They live longer than a horse. They have a longer working life. I think what I need from you that would make for a great commercial country mule song is maybe maybe this is a story tune. So I'm sure. We need a specific meal. I'm sure in your lifetime you've had, or maybe even a specific instance with a specific meal like you're on a mountain and a cat jumps and swipes it but it doesn't kill it and the horse falls off the side of the mountain but your meal stays and his name is izzie's my good meal right now

works that's what betty bay slow trap what was the other slow trap so what we're going to do now in lunch bell songwriting world is take the three options he just gave us and decide on which one is one is one is it meant more to you than the other but it doesn't matter but is he Betty Bay. I mean, that one's hot. Betty Bay is great. Betty Bay. So there's even like a... Are you saying Bay? Betty Bay. And that's a little laser color. That's a little song or thing, too, is like... Betty Bay is also for sale. The two bees. The... Say, this isn't Craigslist, dude. Jeez. I don't think anybody about. You might have somebody... That's what this is really all about. You came all the way here to sell a meal. He's like, she has for Columbia.

You are getting your paycheck. Don't worry about this. Just write me a really great talk about Betty Bay. Okay, I like Betty Bay. What was the other one? Slow Trap, Izzy, Betty Bay. And you said May is her color. No, Bay. Bay. B.A. Y. She's Bayhors. She's Bay-Muel.

Yeah, she's bay-colored. But, I mean, like, the biggest thing that a mule would have would be at sure-footedness and safety and rough country. Like, if you meet somebody with a mule, you're like, this dude's going in some rough country. Right. Yeah. Yeah. This is a, this is a gritty American. But mules are stubborn.

They're harder to deal with than a horse. They're harder to train than a horse. But if you get one trained, it's better than a horse. Payoffs, man. Okay. So, the next... I think I love that for a chorus. Like, hold on, we don't even know what...

No, no, no, I'm just working to my brain. Like, they might be this, they might be that. What do you want this song to sound like? Well... I mean, should it be up-tempo? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like... Should it be, like, you know...

Like old slu-foot. Like kind of kind of... fun, kind of fulky. We could start out with a chorus. That's what I'm thinking like, they might, what, they might be what, they might be this, they might be that. Well, they're sure-footed,

they're made for rough country. Yeah, but you're saying they're paining the ass to raise up, but it's worth it in the end. Yeah. Yeah. What are the downfalls of them? They might be. Well, they're harder to train.

They might be hard to training. They're, they're, a, A bad mule is way worse than a bad horse. But a good mule is better than a good horse. We got to save our horse. You understand what I'm saying? Like they're outlaw. If you get an outlaw, you're in trouble.

Nobody's going to listen to this. Should we save our horse references like for? Because here's the thing. We could shit on horses through this entire song, right? No doubt. But I think the move, I think the move is to pick one poignant moment to shit on a horse and then just keep it honoring. Clay's trying to go low and negative.

Well, you guys are trying to go positive. Positive off-timpos was Mike's money. Yeah, we're trying to make money and be cool here. Every hunter knows that the wilderness is full of surprises. But sometimes what you find out there isn't an elk or a bear. It's something darker. They never made sense what law enforcement was. same to us. How could there have been no marks on her? This season on blood trails, we're following

the trail of seven cases that start in the field and end in the shadows. Each story begins with the hunter stepping into the wild, but not all of them come back. All theories are out there, you know, everything from murder to UFOs to Bigfoot. I'm Jordan Sillers, a journalist with over a decade of experience investigating stories about hunting, fishing, guns, crime. Join me as we track the truth through tangled cover and cold case files where every trail tells a story and every story leaves its own trail of blood blood trails listen now on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts uh okay it could it could like um be it'd start with like a trip to the mountains in rough country uh now i mean like a personal story where a meal would have come through would

been carrying a bear hide. Love it. Give me two seconds. Betty Bay, Betty Bay. For chorus? Finest meal was ever made. Finest new God ever made. Betty Bay, Betty Bay.

Finest meal I ever made. Hey, can we put a state in there? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, in a minute. I've got one. What's the reference for the state? Well, I don't know.

Just like Tennessee Stud is really cool. I would love an Arkansas reference. Okay. What's Arkansas? Arkansas what? Just Arkansas. Arkansas ass. Oh, yeah.

Well, no. He doesn't like that. He doesn't like any kind of swear words. Oh. Well, but it's not a donkey. Like, if somebody's trying to insult me, they'll go, hey, get your donkey out of the trailer. Oh. For them spotting words.

Yeah, don't call my mule a donkey. Oh, baby. My bad, my bad, dude. You know what I'm saying? So now you're the artist. The session's over. I'm done with this guy. Yeah, this is where we had text our publisher and be like, hey, send us a text that we got

studio time at 2.30s. Oh, man. Sorry. Poverisher just texting. I got to go home. I think we're just going to have enough time for chorus. Betty, baby, baby. Find this mule got it.

May I could do that Betty Bay Betty Bay Just write a different line for this Oh Clay I mean we could

Do you want to be in the song Arkansas Clay Bitty Bay Betty Bay So I'm a do Arkansas Clay I love that

And then do Betty Bay Put something Better being for sale too In there Finest finest donkey donkey God ever made.

Oh, my bad. Finest meal, God ever made. And you could do, and then do a story. All right. Which one goes first? Clay, then God in the end. Betty Bay, Betty Bay. What's, okay, help us, help us here.

Something about it, Arkansas, Clay, like the, something to the mountains. Only dedicated to you. What's another word for vehicle? Blank to the mountains of Arkansas, Clay. Five four. I call them a, like they're a ride. Like a Mountain Cadillac. Oh, Mountain Cadillac for Arkansas.

Perfect. Hey, baby, baby. Mountain Cadillac for an Arkansas play. Baby, baby, baby. Finest milk I ever made. All right, there you go. That's your chorus. Dude.

How tall is it? It's all over now, but the boring parts. The chorus. She's actually 14-3 is what they call it. How old is she? She's seven. Going on eight. Seven years.

Oh, seven years eight. She's going on eight. I like here. Going on eight. And, do you know, she's going on eight at one day. At 14-3. 143 something to something to something

that's Spanish to somebody who don't yeah like technical it sounds due because it makes it sound like you guys know a lot about don't think we're leaving I'll think it's got to be

quite cool I don't think it's commercial cool I think we just got to stay cool she's going on a 143 do that would be a concern because you're just losing people well

in a commercial sense we're not making who's going to know what She's going on eight at 14.3. Nobody's going to know what that means. None of our listeners, know that. Yours guys do. Yeah, no, I got you.

But like just a, but a commercial audience is too obscure. Or you do. Or you do. But I think he's eight years old, Stan's 14.3. So everybody, that's a little bit clear. Yeah, that's a little bit. But I don't think we help out. I think we make it cooler than.

Clay cool. Look, Clay, cool. Well, she, she weighs a thousand pounds. Ways a thousand pounds. And she's, you know, just a ball of energy. A bottle of energy. You just wrote the first verse. Ready?

Yeah. She's going on a 14, 3,000 pounds of energy. No, 1,000 pounds of energy. Oh, yeah, yeah. Dude, got it. I'm getting shivers, man. Yeah, I'm watching. Okay, so here.

I'm getting shivers. Like, okay, so we could do this in that second stanz. I like stands. You guys did both versions. You left the stands off last time, but I think throw that in. Even for Clay Coole. She's going on eight stands, 14, 3,000 pounds, 1,000 pounds of energy.

Okay, they call it horse power. You could have her for 15G. They can have her 17. 17. They call it horsepower, but they should call it mule power. You know what I'm saying? You can buy her ass for 17G. Yeah. Horspower's got all the hype,

but meal power is really what we want. Yeah, yeah, something like that. Energy. Horsepower, horsepowers for the, They say horsepower makes a world go around. Horsepowers for Hollywood, mule powers. Horsepowers for Hollywood. Mules for the mountains.

Mules for the... For a lot, for real life. Horsepower. Horsepower for Hollywood. Doesn't really... Betty based... Yeah, I love that. Betty May.

Okay, she's going on eight. Stans 14,000 pounds of energy. We got it right here. Horse, I know, I know. I got it in my still trap. Horspowers for Hollywood. That's important. You know, I mean, I'm a little song, right?

Horse powers for grease monkeys. For grease monkeys. Horspowers for grease. See, we just gave you the Nashville no. The Nashville know is when somebody says a line that we don't like, you just look back and start playing again. I go, that's rippin again. That's interesting.

Yeah, oh, okay. You know, but I liked it because I felt let down easy. Yeah, that's, that's what it's supposed to do. Because it, like, it leaves this idea that you're still mulling it. And here's the thing. This is one of my favorite quotes I've ever heard in Nashville about that, about the Nashville no. A guy said something one time, and we kind of Nashville noted. He prefaced it by saying, look, I don't, I don't know that this is the line, but I don't know that this is the crop, but it might be the fertilizer for it.

So, like, smell them stepping in there? Yeah. All right. Yeah, I do appreciate that. Then just getting shut down. Yeah, instead of going, that shit's terrible. Yeah. Are we trying to keep the...

Keep it cool, man. No, no, I know. But same, like, same cadence, like... Or you do, like, horsepowers from something A. I'll take new power every day. It's 14, 3,000 pounds of energy, horsepowers from Hollywood. Something in there, we're Betty Baste of... Meal power.

Meal power. That feels a little weird to me, man. I think we maybe hang, like, punt meal power and just try another direction. Just the interest of time, Clay. Yeah, man. She's bad. Just, you know. Going on 8 stands 14.3,000 pounds of energy.

She'll, now, she'll carry a hog. She'll carry a hog. She'll carry a hog or a white tail deer. Something, I don't know, something fine to clear. Now, I think this is it. I think this is the last line, of course. Yeah, absolutely. Don't bore.

Here's another trick. Don't bore us. Get to the course. All right. Also, what we just, did. What we're doing right now is we're talking out a line. So, like, you want songs to be conversational.

And so that's what a lot of songwriting is, is we sit in there and go, she's, she's going on a white tub dear, or no, no, no, sunny. Yeah, I love that. Something times a year. There you go. She'll carry a home.

How about we throw it to a nature reference, like, when the leaves turn orange and the, that time we did. Dara to fall. Well, it's got to be ear rhyme. We've already set up ear rhymes We're missing one line. We're missing one line, ear rhymes. She'll carry a hog or a wattel deer.

Or you can flip them. She'll carry a deer or a big old hog something in over a log. They step over a long or some shit? Well, they do, but that's a little anti-comatic to the rest. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I like, she'll carry a hog or a white tail deer. This is you know more about the information than I do. It's great.

Yeah, that I get you. It's a weak detail. Or what about a, she'll carry a hog. or a white-tail-d-d-year. Something, some time a year, so many times a year. Right, any day of the year. Any day of the year. That sounds cheap.

She's ready to go any day of the year. I love it. She'll carry a hog or white-tel deer. She's ready to go any day of the year. Betty, babe, Betty, baby. Mountain. Shit, forget. Mountain Cadillac for an Arkansas clay.

She's got it right here. Ooh, this guitar. We need to lay down. Won't you just handle this, and I'll handle this. This is how it always goes. Now, not to put my fingerprint on the verse with my name, but Ann Arkansas Clay, would it be like, old Arkansas clay? Sure, man.

Oh, there you go. See, now we're just tightening the strands of this song shoot. Are you to pick up your guitar and do it, too, in the... I mean, what is it? I should like to see you get in there. I mean, it's about you. I don't even know how to do this, damn. Do what?

You don't do anything. She's doing it. Oh, okay, okay. So, one, two, starts with a chorus. You go, oh. Ready, start with a club. Betty Bay, Betty, Babe. Mountain Cadillac for a Arkansas play.

Betty Bay, Betty Bay. Bine as fuel God's ever made. Watch it. She's going on eight. Stance 14.3, a thousand pounds of energy. She'll carry a hog or a white tail deer. She's ready to go any day of the year. Betty, Baby, Betty,

She's a battle cat, a roll, Arkansas play. Betty, baby, Betty, baby. Mine is you God's ever made. Mine is mute God never made. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. That's how hits are made. Coming to you live from Music Row in Nashville, Tennessee. Stay tuned for that one on the FM dial.

Bo, boo. Turn it off, Reva. That's it? Turn it off, Reba. Cut it, Reeve. gear is not an option. You need waiters that show up when conditions turn against you. First Lights forge waiters are built for the toughest days, flooded timber, icy cat tails, and bitter mornings. Designed to perform season after season was zero quit. Built for reliability when everything

else is working against you. If your old waiters just gave out or you've been waiting to make the switch, now is the time. Forge waiters are in stock and ready to ship at first light. That's f-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. This is an I-Hart podcast, guaranteed human.