The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 879: Arizona Jaguars, CWD Elk, and a New One-Buck Limit for Michigan Hunters

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Steven Rinella and the MeatEater crew discuss: Steve's new baby mouse; Corner Crossing updates; the endangered jaguar hanging out in Arizona; live sonar for billfish and the end of integrity in fishing; Louisiana's National Forest land transfer; the first ever detection of CWD in Wyoming's largest elk herd; South Dakota sets an unprecedented elk hunting management plan; Michigan's major buck hunting rule changes; and more. Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Check out Phelps' new bear cub distress call. Springtime is the right time to use a bear cub in distress sound when bear hunting. Male bears will kill cubs in order to get females to cycle into another breeding opportunity. And the sound of a cub in distress also signals to other male bears that a meal is close and even a possible mate. A bear cub in distress will also get the attention of a female bear to come and investigate to defend a cub. dragging any male suitors she has in tow.

Not to mention, a cub in distress will also call other predators in, as they're looking for an easy meal too. Get your own bear cub in distress at Phelpsgamecauls.com. Welcome to the news show. Cow's back. And on this episode, we need you to help us solve a mystery. Cal, who's back, talks corner crossing updates. Another Jaguar is hanging in Arizona,

or as Spencer Newhart says, Jaguar. Michigan makes some major buck hunting rule changes and Janus is here to tell you all about it. Seth reports on the end of the integrity of fishing, but that's probably not how he looks at it. My wife took a mouse home, which still surprises me. South Dakota sets an unprecedented elk hunting management plan and more. But first, our news, here's the biggest thing.

Periodically on the news show, we're going to start doing, this is quick, but periodically on the news show, we're going to start doing these little, we need audience help. We are doing finally, we are in the process of working on an extended series about the mystery

of who killed the world record White Tail Buck. Was it Milo Hanson, who recently passed away, or was it Mitch Rompola? And the main thing is, is the Rompola buck legit? We're doing

a whole series on it. We're doing a whole series on it. it. Jordan Sillers, who you know in love from Blood Trails, is running this project with my assistance. We're cranking on it. First, here's the first call for help that we need. If you, if you, listener, if you, someone in your network, whatever, there's two people

we're looking for right now. If you know about a Texas man who, in the... the late 1990s was negotiating the purchase of the rompola buck and backed out of that purchase, can you send us a note? Again, a Texas man who was negotiating the purchase of the rompola buck in the late 1990s and ultimately decided to back out of that purchase. Please reach out to us. How do people supposed to reach out?

Where should they send the note? What's the meat you, my artist? The Meat Eater podcast at themeatater.com. The Meat Eater podcast at the meat eater.com put Rompola, R-O-M-P-O-L-A in the subject line. Second thing, if you or anyone you know worked for an outfit called the Arkansas County Seed Company in the late 1990s or early 2000. thousands, please reach out to us. Again, anyone who worked at familiar with, knows someone who worked at, a place called the Arkansas

County Seed Company in the late 1990s or early 2000s, please reach out to us. Do you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries, Steve? No. I know about it. My agent used to produce segments. He used to produce the reenactments. Hosted by Robert Stack. There'd always be a great moment sometimes, like one in five episodes at the end of the

episode, they'd have an update. And you get a little rush watching that because they've just like potentially cracked the case. That's how this feels. That you're, you're like casting a wide net and we're going to have an update come next episode. I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, my agent, Mark Gerald, my literary agent, he's been my agent for over 20 years. He used to, did you say America's Most Wanted? No, Unsolved Mysteries. Sorry. He used to produce the reenactments for America's Most Wanted like back a million years ago. The weirdest job in the world. Yeah.

Like when it gets all like trippy, you know, and there's like a shooting in a hotel or something, that was his job. It would be fun. It would be. That sound that weird to me. Sounds like to be a fun little thing. No, yeah, like that weird, but like, yeah, fun. Yeah. He liked it.

Look at this. One of those things they don't tell you about in high school at Career Day. Look at this. It's like a not a job that comes up. Yeah. You pull up those pictures I sent you? Yeah. Steve, get closer to the mic.

My wife. Oh, my God. Look at this. My wife was hiking the M Hill in town. and she sees laying, look at this, she sees, listen to him, laying in the trail, laying in the middle of the trail on a rock,

a brand new born mouse that doesn't even have his eyes open yet. Look at that picture. Its eyes weren't even open. Aren't they born with no hair? I thought they're born hairless. Well, he's not brand new there, but like what the hell is he doing out in the middle of the trail?

I don't know. Just laying there, eyes closed. Do you know what kind of mouse it is? Jimmy thinks it's a deer mouse or something. Listen to it. So its eyes weren't even open yet. And I'm thinking there's no way they're going to keep that thing alive.

But my boy starts, where's that little deal? He starts feeding it. Even though its eyes are closed, he's feeding it with this. Here, I can open it for me. He's feeding it. Ranch dress. Puppie, puppy milk replacement. it's crawling up Steve's arm.

Yeah. Were you guys all like, thank God we don't live on a cruise ship? Yeah. Well, that's one of the issues that came up is all that antivirus shit. So I had to keep telling my wife like, he's probably going to catch something from us. We're not going to catch something from him. And then our dog got sick and then she thought the mouse was killing the dog. But that doesn't seem to be it.

What's the long term plan with this? I don't know. Watch it. See if he's hungry right now. musky bait he's starving oh look at that he knows he knows what's up oh dude it's great this little mouse what's the dumb squeaking it sounds like the a frame oh he makes a whole rack he puts me in there you gotta watch this this is the weird i'm hoping i can trigger the weirdest part of this get a good load in there okay watch this is the weirdest part gets weirder yeah

he doesn't know how to swallow real good watch so he has to do this little thing where you think he's having a seizure watch this you might be too old for it now. No, I see it. I see it coming. Flatten your hand out. You can't. It lasts 10 seconds when he has is a seizure.

Look at it. He's like, please go more. No, he's not there. Anyway, we can move on. But the surprising part about this is, you guys know Katie. That's pretty cute.

Katie is the last woman on the planet that's going to bring a mouse home. Obviously not. Well, I know, but you would think. You would think. It's not like she's going to step on. But she's not going to like squish it, but she's not going to bring it home. I want him to do his seizure.

It seems to me that she's more frequently trying to decide how to get weird stuff out of the house. Yeah, this is payback. See, when he gets mad at, when he's done, he's done. He makes all kinds of noise. What's he dragging around on his belly there? They're like a dried up? He just took a growler. Anyhow.

I'm going to wash up. because I don't want the Honda virus. And then you guys could keep talking about the news. Now, that's interesting, no, isn't it? You guys haven't come up with a plan for that mouse's future yet? I mean,

how long they live? I could get rid of them. That's what I was asking. My wife was tossed out of the idea that they let it go out in the yard. And I don't, the kids aren't interested in that. Yeah. They were like,

yeah, no. Is there a name yet? It's mebel. Okay. Leani's daughter. But with a, E.

Not named after Yonimo. Mebel the mouse. Let's Google search. How long? Randall, you should go into your... I don't know. I just don't think people are interested in my chickens. I am. Yeah, I think we... Well, give us the quick version.

We are. Steve's washing up. I just, I feel like, yeah, okay. Well, I just know... One to three years for a pet mouse. We lost another chicken to birds of prey. got home from the great state of Florida on Monday

and I thought man there's a lot of big chickens there that the chickens have all grown and turned dark. Instead it was 12 vultures and they were killing or they were consuming one of our chickens. When you pulled up after being gone yeah 12 vultures were there. Yeah and then they came back I chased them off and then they came back about an hour later so I've been looking into

So are they like circle in your house? Yeah, they've been back three times now since then. Are you going to apply for a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Permit to Destroy Vultures? Did you, oh, did you read ahead? No, you don't even have that in front of you. I've looked into it. Yeah. I've looked into it.

Depredation permits. Because I don't really know what else to do. Sure. Do you have a netting over the top of your chickens? Well, now we have, we have fishing lines strung up. We've got reflective stuff strung up. Uh, we're doing all we can. Non-lethal measures.

Yeah. So you can actually get a permit. Yeah. They're covered under the migratory bird. Especially if it's, if it's hitting your, uh, triac, hit your livestock. Next episode of roast, Johnny. Did you guys keep the show going?

We did. Yeah, poorly. We just got through the chicken segment. It went about as you'd expect. Yeah. I didn't come into it with the right attitude though. He didn't. He didn't bring any energy to us.

I would have brought a dead chicken down here and like laying it out. The fun thing to me is, and it's a delicate conversation around the Williams ranch, Williams chicken ranch, is that they're not at the point of chicken farming yet to where a dead chicken is, means absolutely nothing. You just sweep it up. Yeah. I mean, I'm there. You'll get there.

I'm there. So I missed it. Like, I'll watch later, but like, like, on a one to ten, like, is he just maybe not cut out for that kind of segment? No, I just think the chicken, I just think, darn. audience, the chicken, the chicken stuff, I just think they're, they're tired of it. I think they got the point. Well, it was the buzzards, not the chicken. I wish you'd have a vote, like a vote where people vote on the mouse segment or the chicken segment was better. I still have that product. I still have that interest meter up in my office, Steve, that guy made for us. Oh, can you bring that down sometimes? Yeah, we could do it next week. I think people need to vote on what they would think of Randall if he were to get a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Depredation permit, nuisance permit. And remember. remove 12 vultures That's just over a chicken That's the thing

No one's gonna care about 12 Volta's that's not bad optics Now if he was gonna wax and ball the eagles And let me be clear I'm not This is not a plan I'm making I've only done the preliminary research Yeah it's three now Three chickens now by the buzzards

If I came upon that scene I would not automatically assume that the vultures killed the chickens I don't know it wasn't like a stray cat Seems like they're cleaning up Yeah I'd That's my initial assessment. There's been some very hasty internet research that says they do do that.

When you're on there, when you're on the internet, Derek, can you find out what kind of mouse that is? Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I actually have a better, I have a better story than the chicken vultures. It's the time Sydney called me to say there's a mouse in the house. And I said, I thought I killed them all. And then I go back and there's a little bald baby mouse. Did you raise it up?

Nope. Feathered chickens? But I wondered how it got... Put it in a sling shit. I wondered how it got on the floor of the closet because it couldn't walk. And so then I started going through all the stuff above it in the closet. And I realized there's a travel pillow up on the top floor, up on the top shelf of the closet that had been chewed up and hollowed out. And then I started going through all the pockets of the shirts and coats below it.

Found 10 of those suckers. I don't know you lived in filth and squalor. Yeah. Was this in your own house? Despite Sydney's best efforts. Yeah, this was in Missoula. So then I had 10. 10 little baby.

I think my understanding is that I'd probably trapped their parents the day before. And then they went out in search of a guardian like Steve's family. That could have been why he's in that trail. Anyo. God, my stories are. You want to start up, Phil? So we're out of time. All right.

So coming up here to Monday, there's no interview show. There's no interview episode dropping on Monday on the Meat Eater podcast feed. which is Memorial Day. We had an awesome guest booked. They had a health thing. They're rebooked. Don't worry. They're fine.

But there's no episode on Monday. It's going to be good. Can we give like a little teaser about what's going to be about? A person that studies the olfactory capabilities of animals and humans. And one thing we're going to talk about is this idea that people, and I say it too, that humans have a bad sense of smell. one of the things is that's not true. There's some things we can smell. There's some things we can smell very acutely,

but we just don't put any value on them anymore. Sulfur. Like if you think a grizzly bear on rotten meat and whatever you get in like parts per whatever, a human on sulfur is unbelievable. We just don't respect it. Anyways, and a lot of her research is around squirrels. Interesting.

olfactory capabilities of squirrels. She's fine. She's going to be good for her. She's already reschedule. Could she potentially speak to the great dry land tracking versus snow tracking? You know what? Why don't you come down? You can sit in too.

Yanni's sitting in because Yanni's going to ask her about one. I've already sent her 20 questions like that and similar. Anyways, on Monday, what will happen instead on Monday is we're going to fill that slot with something we were already. doing anyways, which is Yanni's 12 and 26 companion podcast episode, answering your questions about his Manitoba caribou hunt. What can people expect to see in that video, Yanni? They can expect to see a grand adventure to the north country of Manitoba, where Samong Yang and I went and did another hunt with our buddy now, Craig McCarthy, North Mountain Adventures, who I bear hunted with the previous spring. And he was.

was looking into possibly expanding his operation into the North Country for some Caribou. And he kind of needed a group to go and just do a trial run. And I was like, oh, that could be us. That sounds like a good time. I like going on hunts like that where it's like, it's not like he's been there for 10 years and you know exactly what you're going to expect. So yeah, Samong and I went when Max Barta and Eli Harris filmed it.

And we had a great time. You know what we did. We did the thing that you often don't like. We brought two weapons. I was already planning on Tomahad, disapprove of that. Okay, but I think you would approve... You make your bed and lie in it. That's what I say.

But I think you would approve because we didn't do the thing where you go out there and you're like, I'm going to hunt with my bow. And then when I can't get it down with my bow, I'm going to pick up my rifle and shoot one. We instead went out first with rifles and said, we're going to knock down a couple of boo, get our meat hanging. Then we're going to go have some fun bo-hunt. Okay. That makes no difference.

It doesn't matter, I think. But that doesn't change your opinion? It's not like a deal. It's not like I've got to make a law about it. It just always strikes me as odd. It always strikes me as odd. Always, yeah. If you can kill two animals,

who cares? Who cares what I think? The approach makes sense. Who cares what I think about it? It just always strikes me as odd. I just thought that this would have changed it because I felt like your complaint in the past was that people act like they're going to be serious about bull hunting,

and then they give up and they switch to the rifle. I just don't do, like, years ago, you were there. Remember we had on, remember we interviewed Bo Jackson? Yes. Bo Jackson is very interested in, he's very interested in getting a deer with a pistol, getting a deer with this, getting a deer with that, you know what I mean? like very interested in weapon of choice.

I'm tracking. He's very in method of taking. Like if I go spear fishing, I don't be like, well, I'm going to bring a homemade one. I'm going to bring a this one. I'm going to bring a that one. You know what I mean? I just like bring the appropriate spear gun.

Yes. I'm just not like a mixing up method of take guy. Instead of using rod and reel out of a boat, which you could just as probably well catch all those fish that you're shooting. No. You can't. Ask Seth. Seth will tell you. They're always hitting on steel.

Seth will tell you. Seth will tell you. Seth, I don't want to get on. Go ahead. You're doing a whole show to prove or disprove this theory, actually. Soon we are. Well, yeah. You can pull up to an oil rig.

You can drop all the baits and throw all the jigs and do everything you want and nothing, right? You think that there's nothing there. You dive underwater, and it's carpeted and fish. It's like. That's true stuff. Carpet didn't fish. Even with some live bait. I don't know if we tried live bait.

Yes, yes. Carpet didn't fish. Let's get back to the bow and arrows. I want to keep going on the news show though. Anyways, it doesn't matter what I think. Tell people out the video real quick because we're going to tell people about the video real quick. Yeah, so Samong and I went hunting with Craig and had a lot of luck. Samong did a, I can't believe we've never done this.

And all the years of film and meat eater, he did a, he did tripe out of a caribou. summit, which is way cool. Yeah. Something we had never covered off on. Did he call it anything weird? Nope. He called it Mung Stoop. Oh, Yai Yang was making me some of that.

And he called it poop soup. I'm like, you got a rebrand. Yeah. You got to rebrand poop soup. Yeah. He did say, though, that in tougher times, they would eat the stomach contents with the, you know, with the soup, as opposed to cleaning it all off and just eating the. right. But we weren't in a position where we needed to do that. But surprisingly, actually,

it wasn't surprising. I mean, enough tripe to know that it's really doesn't even have a flavor. It's more of just the texture. And it's like a filler. Like, I would imagine there's probably not that many, I don't know, there's probably some calories in the stomach. I don't like, I don't like lung, brain, and I don't like stomach. Oh, man. Go get a tripe taco where it's fried, crispy, and then it's gooey on the inside. Oh, my God. Maybe. lung brain and lung brain and gut not my scene well it was a great adventure

you can see it now on the media's YouTube channel uh I think it's like Yanni hunts caribus yeah it's called boo buddies Yonnie catches a caribou Yonis's first archery caribou there you go oh there you go you know how we're always trying different thumbnails

with sometimes different titles so I don't actually know if there was a title but if you should search Janus Meat Eaters Caribou, I'm sure you'll. If you search Janus, apostrophe, first archery caribou. You'll definitely get to it. Meat eaters 12 and 26. Yeah, you'll be right there.

But yeah, if you have any questions after you watch the episode that you'd like me to answer, put them in the comments. And Corinne and Corey myself, we're going to go through there and curate the best questions. And then I'm going to answer them on the podcast. It's going to come out on Memorial Day. How did he? I'm Luke Wilson. Join me each week for Film Never Lies.

Since retiring from the NFL, I've had a lot of my mind, and now I've got my own show. So if you're tired of lazy takes, if you want honest conversations, join us each week. Film Never Lies available on all TSN platforms in the IHeart Radio app. Hunting demands preparation, persistence, and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear first light. This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear. Built to perform, built to last, whether it's their industry leading merino wool,

keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot, or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements. First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer, designed by hunters, four hunters, with a deep commitment to conservation and land access. No shortcuts, no excuses. Just gear you can count on. Head to firstlight.com.

That's F-I-R-S-T-L-E dot com. All right, Cal, take it away. Corner Cross. Where do you want me to start on this thing? Just like what's happening right now? Let's not go back to the beginning. Let's not go back to like Adam and Eve. Yeah.

But let's take it from how it was good law. Where was it declared corner crossing? Let's not do the whole checker board explanation. Yep. good law federal court supreme court and what's next yeah uh main thing is is folks who've been tracking this Wyoming since and sits in the 10th circuit Wyoming uh over the course of three years went through a corner crossing case that that made it up uh uh through the court of appeals and then was reviewed by the supreme court of the

United States and ultimately determined that the lower court's rulings were good. And that's where the 10th circuit sits. Meat Eater was a big part of that because we did a bunch of fundraising through our land access initiative for that corner crossing case, raised support for the funds for that legal fight. Montana sits in the ninth circuit. Ever since, Can you refresh me a little bit like 10th is New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming? Yep. And 9th has must be us, Idaho, Washington. Is that how it goes?

Yeah. Someone grabbed that way. Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah, Wyoming. Is what? That would be 10th. Okay. Hit me with 9th. Randall's on it.

Oh, that's internet. It seems like a really easy. I know. He's never going to stumble. Which states are in the night. He's never to find out what kind of mouse that is. Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, and Arizona. Oh, some big heavy hitters in there.

Huge. And Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands. Yeah. Yeah. And we get a lot of mail from Guam. Yeah. So. Oh, that's good to have Cal back.

We have, through our Armed Forces initiative, we actually have a bunch of BHAers on Guam. Okay, there we go. They just kind of live in one particular spot and have access to a lot of fun stuff. Anyway, within the Ninth Circuit, so that 10th Circuit case would be the case that gets referenced if there was a federal case in the Ninth Circuit. It is persuasive, but it is not technically the law in the ninth. Yeah. But it would be that thing where it would be like, boy, it went all the way. through here.

So you know what corner crossing was going through the 10th? Yeah. And then the thing people would reference was the unlawful enclosures at. Yeah. If it went through the 9th, you would sort of throw that out in reference. Yes. You would start referencing the latest iteration, which was the corner crossing question. Yes.

So people would be like, well, the precedent or whatever, or the guideline is really fresh from 10th. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And the thing to remember to there's their state and federal law, Unlawful Inclosures Act is federal. It was a law signed, you know, passed through Congress, signed by the president, I think four years before Montana ever became a state. So there's no question as to what came first. Yeah. But there is no federal case in Montana. And how it became a federal case in Wyoming, most people are like just because it like didn't necessarily have to but it was interesting enough at the time that a federal judge decided to pick up that case.

So and it's not it's odd that you can't. There's avenues to make an appeal to a federal court. but it's not just something that that is as you can't just pick and choose randomly right so whereas it in the 10th in Wyoming what what the incident that led to corner crossing being clarified legal is that there was some guys that corner crossed they were cited for corner crossing and they were acquitted the landowner appealed. They won.

And that was the inciting incident. It was a specific corner crossing mechanism. Yep. And a lot of similarities to, right? The state of Wyoming had said, this is not something that we're going to prosecute on. Both your game wardens, basically your law enforcement agencies were already at the point of like,

this isn't something that we do. unless there is actual trespass, which means causing damage, spending time on private ground. And if this had, just a little civics lesson here, and I think I'm clear on this, the landowner that was trying to keep it illegal

to make it illegal to corner cross, tried to take his case to the Supreme Court. Yes. The Supreme Court declined to hear it. Yeah. So that ends that, that ends that legal fight. It does.

For there. But had the Supreme Court taken, had the Supreme Court taken it and again declared it's legal, would that have then been, would that have then been for all districts? That would have been like the precedent setting case. So that would have all of a sudden made it that it's just like across the West, where applicable, it's legal. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's our right. We can still fight these things. but an attorney is going to be like, hey, here's the deck that's stacked against you.

Like, I'll take your money, but... Like, they declined to hear it. Right. Yeah. Yep. So back here in the Ninth Circuit, the state of Montana has this long history of paying attention to corner crossing, not paying attention to corner crossing. Internal memos saying, we are going to... We are not going to issue citations.

We'll defer to the county attorney's office. Once the 10th Circuit court decision was made, then we started to see things change here in the state of Montana where they were kind of beefing up their language. The state was beefing up the language. Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks is, you know, They don't get to create laws and rules and regulations. They just enforce them.

And so they're the mouthpiece for this, right? And eventually they essentially created a rule by saying wardens are going to cite for corner crossing. And at that point, Montana BHA and eventually myself had to have multiple conversations with the state. I pause you for a second. Yes. Because this is the thing that just now is confusing to me. Yes.

And it never confused me before. Yep. Why is corner crossing a fishing game? Like, why is it a fishing game issue? If it's a state wildlife agency and corner crossing can be federal or state, and you could feasibly corner cross. to go do anything. Yes.

You could corner cross to go. Camp, hiking bike, take a pass. Cut wood, whatever. Why is it their problem? Because this is largely just focused on hunting, right? It's like vast Bureau of Land Management land out there, typically. Yeah.

A lot of state land too. Because it's just who's doing it. Like, who's likely to do it? Yeah. It's not a dog walking. It's not regarded to a dog. dog walking issue. Man, I think there's also an aspect of like taking game off of.

Sure. Public game off of private. You know what I mean? Yeah, but that gets into. I get why it had. Like I get why, but I just. Well, well, I mean, the real, I think the, the real way to break it down, right, is because in our state trust pass laws, you have civil and criminal. And within that, you have hunting without land.

permission. Yeah, okay. Right. And that is something that game wardens, they're, they're, they're your, your people. Yeah, that makes sense. Because it's not the public end of it. You're right. It's not the BLM end of it.

No. It's the, the dude who's laying your shoulders are passing over. Yeah. Okay. And then, um, yeah, and then you get into all the things that we heard in the Wyoming case, which is like, how do we define airspace and. And is this, if it is trespass, what are the damages? And how do we define and value the damages to private airspace?

And a lot of this is just like totally academic. It's like having a really fun physics teacher, right? It's like, well, how many ants stretch around the circumference of the world? right? Versus just like the practical nature of like are there damages? Is this something that the whole world needs to be involved in? How do we extrapolate this out throughout time? All those all those fun things.

So Montana BHA had had many, many conversations with the state on just simply saying, go back to the previous memo. There is no law in the state of Montana that regards corner crossing. Go back to this legal gray area. And for those who wish, they can take their chances on being referred to a county attorney. But the reality is like no county attorneys want to take this case. and, you know, I can tell you right now, like, I've never corner crossed. I know lots of people who do.

This is not a new thing. It certainly gets headlines, but it's been going on forever. Years ago when we were, like, researching places to hunt within the state of Montana to, like, helicopter into because they were, they were so landlocked. Inevitably, I would talk to somebody and be like, well, you're not going to be the only person in there. People corner crossing there all the time. It's just like something that is done. And then we started hearing this from fish wildlife and parks. You know, I just asked directly.

I said, so why, in our opinion, there's an escalation in the language around corner crossing. Can you tell me why that is? Without a foundational change. And they said, yes. It's because they said, you're right. We are using stronger language around corner crossing. And it's because we've received more calls on trespassing, not at the corner. To which I responded, well, that's great.

That's trespassing. And we have lots of laws for that. You should catch those guys. Yes. So that was. just like an interesting bit of conversation. But then, uh, yeah, we decided to, uh, file a suit against Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks, um, which again is like the, the mouthpiece for this. And, uh, in that suit, we say, hey, you guys stepped over the line. You guys created a, a rule

without going through the proper public process that we have here. Um, so that's illegal. And then, we would like the judge to define corner crossing in the state of Montana. We're asking for a declaratory judgment. So that's no jury. That's just the judge gets to decide it's a very relatively quick legal avenue to getting a decision on something. Not a first choice scenario at all. a lot of times there's risk involved with with taking something to court because you may get a favorable decision that isn't exactly what you wanted either but we do have a legislative session coming up here in the state of Montana and that would be another way to define lawful access to publicly managed ground. Do you see, is there a world where it would be beneficial to have a person who is cited and do the same thing that happened in Wyoming?

Like if you knew a guy, let's say you knew a guy. Well, there's no guarantee it's going to be picked up by a federal court. And we know the federal argument works great. And we don't, you know, it is down to interpretation. Yeah. Um, and, and the court cases that exist here in Montana are similar, but different. Um, you know, and some of them are pretty fun, like guys shooting ducks over other people's property. What can choose, you know, stuff that is very much in the hunter's wheelhouse.

Yeah. And it's, it is, uh, good reading. Um, and. And. And. So I would say, no. I don't want people to go. out and get caught and sighted and then and then say please please let's go to court over this. You know, the better pathway was one to have the state define this. And two would go through the proper legislative route and get this buy in. Right. So there's a lot of actors at play here representing different groups.

You know, I'll tell you, like, when we made the announcement of incoming CEO to BHA, I had a lot of people in the agriculture community, you know, just throughout like my friend and family network, reach out and be like, okay, how are you going to screw us? And how are you going to help us? It was really the whole conversation. Was the screwing us bucket, the corner crossing thing? No. Interestingly enough, when I had talk about this, almost, almost every single person that I talk to,

and these are like old Montana families, they said, now, if you could tell me that corner crossing would move the elk off of my absentee landowner neighbor's property, so they keep moving around instead of just coming on to my place at night, I'd be all four corner crossing. With this guy, yeah, I got it. Right? But the next door neighbor who is completely absentee doesn't do anything,

but show up for a couple of days during elk season. That's who I want help with. Got it. When are we going to know more? How long will it be? So, um, the, the, we filed a couple of weeks ago, then you have to serve. Um, to my knowledge, it has been served. And then the state will have 42 days from, from when they received the paperwork to, uh, make some sort of an action.

Got it. So more than, more than likely what, uh, they will do is ask for the case to just be dismissed. and say, well, it doesn't meet. No, no, no, this was just a memo. We didn't create a rule or law and asked for the case to be dismissed. In the meantime, if you or your friends are somehow taking a more casual attitude

to trespassing because of your understanding that corner crossing is legal and you just now feel like you're just allowed to go where you want, you're not only hurting, you're hurting yourself, you're hurting hunters in general. And it sounds to me like you're also hurting this process. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, and the lieutenant governor gave a statement last week about corner crossing and essentially sort of just declared it illegal. And, um, well, I don't, I don't think the lieutenant governor quite did that. She made her opinion be known. Right, right. And then, uh, representative Paul Fielder. Yeah, he said. Thanks for telling us what the law is.

Yes. He is the one who then. But someone at the, someone at the committee meeting said, you know, if, if this is illegal and has always been illegal, can you give us examples of people who have been cited for corner crossing? And the only, she said, well, there was this corner crossing case, but it turned out that they were actually just trespassing. And there was this corner crossing case.

But it turned out like when they went back and investigated, these guys were just, it was just a plain trespass. So every example that. she gave to sort of throw doubt on corner crossing as a legitimate form of access. Every one of those were cases in which people claimed their corner crossing, but they're actually just trespassing. Because I think what's motivating that with people is guys are saying, hey, once we're on there, we'll just say we crossed at the corner.

Right. And those guys are going to screw this whole thing. Right. Yes. Those guys are going to screw this. Exactly. Because it is. No, no, buddy.

If we're on there, just say we came, just like say we came over from blankety-blank corner. Yeah. especially when you're out there in the middle of nowhere, right? And oftentimes there are no fences. You're like, well, this seems pretty arbitrary. Yeah. Right. If I was a landowner, I'd put a camera on my property on the corner.

And then when guys are like, I corner cross and I know they didn't corner cross. I know they came in from some other way. I'd be like, well, let's go have a look. Your picture should be on my camera. And lo and behold, you ain't on it. Yeah. At the corner. The other interesting thing that the lieutenant governor brought a,

up is problem corners, which is something that that came up in Wyoming as well, where we don't have the exact location of a corner anymore because it was marked with a pile of rocks or a, you know, dinosaur bone is something people reference. I've never seen that personally. Or there was a tree there or there was something other than a survey marker, right? big boulder, something that is going to be very, very hard to cross over the top of without having to step on private land. It's awesome that the lieutenant governor brought that up. The state of Montana is not doing anything to identify those.

Neither has the state of Wyoming. We created a site at backcountry hunters and anglers using ARC GIS, where if you would like to, turn in problem corners so we can identify them. Oh, that's great. You can just pop your coordinate coordinates in there. And that can be a misaligned fence. That can be a missing monument marker. That can be all sorts of things that just go, oh, this puts me outside of this legal grayer. Yeah. I was in the lead up to this is this is going on. I was picturing and I don't even know how it would play out. I was picturing doing fundraising in order to help clarify mark and identify corners. The problem with that, I imagine my own problem you would run into is you would need to get the land management agency on board.

And it just might not be a thing they want to entertain. But if you'd go out and be like, hey, no, we're going to pay for it. We'd like to have, we'd like to have the corner surveyed and marked. but then you'd have to do the permit process with them. And depending on their attitude about how much they want to court controversy, they might not welcome that input. And they might not have a mechanism to accept that money anyways. You'd probably have to get the landowners involved too, which...

And they might not be that excited about that either. But it was in my mind. And the thing that we've said from the get-go, right, is like, we just need a nice, very quiet solution because the vast majority of these people don't want to be hassled. They don't want to see a bunch of trucks piled up at a corner. And I'm like, and neither do hunters. Like, we just want to know that we're in the right and not be hassled and go do our thing.

And that is it. So there's a ton of, ton of ground in the middle here. And we're really, really trying to keep it that way versus see some of these arguments get picked up like, oh, it's anti-private property rights. Whereas we're trying to define private property rights. And like happened in Wyoming, we were very supportive of a bill that clarified private property language and, you know, gave some assurances to the private side of the fence that people know what private property is. But what we're seeing out of the state so far is a lot of acknowledgement of the problems without any. work towards fixing those problems. Or like you said, you know, I had brought a solution that would take a lot of work, but I think would pay really big dividends for everybody. And,

you know, there just wasn't a lot of interest in endorsing that effort or even acknowledging it as something productive. But I think we'll get there and that might be something that this lawsuit helps with. There's another program that we put into action in Montana through the legislature that would provide private property owners the ability to create easements through the block management program. So they wouldn't have to open up their property to hunting, but they could provide an access corridor to landlocked lands or corner locked lands. Heck yeah, man. So same deal. willing buyer, willing seller scenario and would be contractual, just like our block management, private land, public access program is.

That's slick, man. Pay people for, pay people for trespass. However, we can't get any metrics out of the state as to how many people were interested in the program, how many people they actually talk to about it, any sort of feedback. And so, you know, I think if we want this program to succeed and be a viable option, put a couple of bucks in the pocket of producers who are keeping land open for wildlife connectivity. That might be a good private, that might be a good privately funded effort. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's going to make a little pot of money. Make people aware of it. We got to move on. But picture, you set it up and you make a little pot of money and strike your own deals. with a private entity. Yep. A nonprofit entity. Yep.

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Callahan, back from the dead. CEO of Backcountry hunters and angers. Welcome back, Cal. Thanks,

right. Thank you. Do I get to sit in on the rest of this? Oh, you hang out? Yep. Can I say one last thing? I'm looking at the 31-page document

where the Montana lieutenant governor like made this announcement. Okay. On slide seven of 31 slides, they say ownership of real property extends above and below the surface from ancient Roman law quote to whomsoever the soil belongs he owns also the sky and to the depths from the heavens

to the hell i think if you're if you're referencing what do they say about one of the romans say about covid vaccine recommendations if you're referencing something from 500 bc from an empire that doesn't exist you're on the losing side of the argument that that just like doesn't work that reminds me of di du way um from the land and from the sea from there there's been this is where this is the structure of a lot of our private property law in America, right? It comes Roman, England over here. And that has been referenced many times as like, yeah, that's a fun history fact, but is it applicable today?

Aren't there the people that killed Jesus? What if we find something from like the USSR that said something about like stepping from one property? No, because that's not how. Why not? Because law didn't flow that way. I got to move on. There is a thing to this. There is a thing to this.

To referencing the Roman Empire. Like, why can't we do the USSR? It just doesn't work that way. Oh, okay. It's like the cradle of Western civilization. Anyhow. I'm Luke Wilson. Join me each week for Film Never Lies.

Since retiring from the NFL, I've had a lot of my mind. Now, I've got my own show. If you're tired of lazy takes, if you want honest conversations, join us each week. Film Never Lies, available on all TSN platforms in the IHeart Radio app. Hunting demands preparation, persistence, and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear First Light. This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear. Built to perform, built to last, whether it's their industry leading merino

wool, keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot, or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements. First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer. Designed by hunters, four hunters, with a deep commitment to conservation and land access. No shortcuts, no excuses. Just gear you can count on. Head to firstlight.com. That's F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. A new Jaguars in Arizona. They named it Cinco. Somewhat arbitrarily. Good job, Phil. It's a good-looking cat. Good-looking Jaguar. Dude, you want to see a great photo. Phil, type in Jaguar in the snow. Just a random Jaguar? Do you know why?

No, just Jaguar into the snow. I know what image you're going to pull up. You know why they named him? I'll tell you. It's somewhat arbitrary. It's the fifth Jaguar known to be in Arizona in the last 20 years. Okay. It's more interesting than that.

What's interesting is, so this Jaguar is hanging around. The people that are tracking it with trail cameras don't want to be too specific about its location, but it's in the Sky Island mountain chains south of Tucson and Arizona. It's in Coosier country. Here's where it's interesting. interesting. This Jaguar Cinco is using

the same travel corridors it's using which one of these you want to look at Steve? No, not those. Never mind. I thought you'd pull it right up. So Arizona Jaguar, snow, there's a trail cam photo. Just whatever.

Never mind. Keep that one up. That's Cinco. Great. It is using this is where it gets good. It's using the same water holes, travel corridors, trails, as another one of these Jaguars did in the past. El Hafei? Or was it? I can't remember. I don't know which one. But it's it because like, so it's like there's, there's two things. One, is it that this piece of habitat is so good? And it's like such a signature of what Jaguars won

that it's like he just settled into the same place. Or is it that there is years old. residual odor from a jaguar which is holding this jaguar's attention or is it like site fidelity meaning if you let's say you went to a farm and you killed all the deer off a farm so there's no institutional memory

right and new deer come back they're probably going to wind up coming out of the same corner bedding in the same area right like they're going to look at it the same way you take all the fish out of a lake it's not like you put new fish in the lake that they're going to have a totally different way of hanging out. They're going to like the same stuff. I'm just guessing here, but it's probably true.

So it's just interesting that they're drawn to certain things, which opens up the possibility. Because when Jaguars turn up in Arizona, they're always males. They're dispersing males coming out of Mexico. But it opens up the possibility that what would seem so random that a female would show up and you'd be like, well, how in the hell is a female ever going to find a male? you know, but maybe there's something about the site specificity that it opens up the idea that you could plausibly, instead of having one jaguar at a time in Arizona, you could plausibly have two that are drawn to the same place and find each other,

which is promising. Again, this dude, Cinco is a male. All these are males. There's a guy, there's a researcher quoted in this. Tucson star. Is that the name of the outfit? The name of the old rag. Sentinel.

Tucson Sentinel. There's a researcher saying, perhaps these Jaguars, I don't know where he gets this, they're fleeing persecution in the South. Oh. Come on. That's reading into things. That's not what's. The Jaguars not like I'm sensing persecution of myself in the South.

I'm going to move up to like the North. It's dispersing males. It's like males. trying to find new territories. Yeah, when he says persecution, doesn't mean by other males or like the cartels. The same guy also, I'll get to another point,

the same guy said it's kind of good. It means that the Jaguars organized for right. Courtesy of Randall. Yeah, that's it. I slacked it to Phil. That's a Jaguar in Arizona. Picture that, Jaguar in the snow.

That's what I want more of in my life. Jaguars in the snow. I'm a big, huge, you don't mind not. notice about me. Huge Jaguar advocate. I want Jaguars back in America. Big cat guy.

Big cat guy. Not just that, big Jaguar guy. They don't want to put a collar on these Jaguars because they got a hangover from, they got a hangover from the macho bee. Careful here. I know. Careful. Listen, I'm going to hear about it.

I have dear friends that don't like talking about this. There's a hangover from an incident called the. Macho B incident where in Arizona, I don't want to get into it too much, in Arizona, they caught a Jaguar and sedated it with a sedative that is good for mountain lions, but is not good for members of the Pantera genus. And how'd they find that out? Because it had kidney failure. So now there is a man Let's not be putting no collars On no jaguars

I without being a Ex without being a wildlife professional I think you should The reason I think you should Is because it would help you When some guy sees this and shoots it Because he's wondering what it is It would help you know that happen

Where that happened and potentially who did it Yeah who the persecuting parties When it goes off radar If you're only using trail cams when it goes off radar, only thing you know is it's not walking in front of your cameras. If you got a collar, you get a mortality signal. It just seems to be better to put a collar on that son of a bitch.

To risk, to take the risk, put a collar on it. If it was a female, I might be like too risky. Don't do it. On a male, I'd put a collar on that sucker.

But isn't it heffle fingers like long position? like how much actual mating went on in the Arizona side of the line. I am not going to mention Jim Helfelfinger. Okay. Except for just what I did right there. Okay, perfect. I am not mentioning.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. Good. Yeah. The same researcher, the trouble with all this is this damn border fence. Between us and Mexico. I give my,

I'm not even going to give my spiel again about this. This is a wildlife show. So I'm not talking about ag production. This is a wildlife show. The one way we can guarantee to never have Jaguars back is you build an impenetrable barrier between us of Mexico

because they're coming out of Mexico. We're going to talk about that next week. One of these researchers saying when these Jaguars come up against the border fence, he suggests I get what he's getting at because he's trying to be like real anti-fenz, which I appreciate. But

in this case, this is his job. But then he uses the same scare tactics that I hate people using. Like, just be honest. He's like, they come up against the fence and they'll just walk along the fence until they die of thirst or starve to death. No. That's just not what animals, how animals, how many, like, go to any fence and walk along and find all the starved to death died of thirst deer along the fence. They come up to a fence. They try to find a way through and then they go about their business.

I don't think the death's. Could be true if you're talking about turkeys. It's just like, I get it. He's kind of like being like, man, I don't want this fence. What can I say that sounds like crazy? They'll walk down the fence until they starve to them. He's like, son of a bit. South Texas cold snap.

Or it seems like the beach. The Atlantic coast would just be dead animals that hit the shoreline and then walked until they starved to death. It would just be. nothing but dead animals up and down the coastline. I thought we're making big headway on having permeable sections of the border down there. That's why I'm a big advocate of electronic barriers. As technologies get so good, Lord knows, drones are getting good.

As their technologies get so good, some people are even positing. I mean, there's even people that are primary, and again, I'm not talking. There's like that constitutional sheriff's group down there that was like, no, we do not need a wall. through Big Bend National Park and through. Yeah. It's more and more. And it's like we, our brand promise is we focus on wildlife and outdoor stuff and hunting and fishing. So I'm not talking about this.

It's out of this show's area of expertise to talk about, um, the impacts of, of illegal migration, which are huge. And there are plenty of places you can go listen to the news and hear about that. This is a wildlife show. The fence is a good for wildlife. You can, you can, you can. accept that and then come up to whatever decision you want about fences that's up to you I respect your decision but for wildlife it ain't good you can you can decide that you don't care

about that that's totally fine that's you're right as a listener feel what you think for wildlife it's a bummer in addition to that I'll say for the wildlife question there's also increasingly there's an argument to be made that electronic barriers are more effective quicker to put in place and ultimately less expensive. I'll just leave it at that. There's plenty of places to go read more about it. And we're also not going to talk about Jim Heffelfinger. Can I talk about Jim real quick if you're not going to you?

You're going to talk about Heffinger? Real fast. Get ready for an email. The other day in an email, Jim called himself Forrest Gump. Yes. I'm currently reading. Don't talk about that.

I'm currently reading Forrest Gump. He's not Forrest Gump. Oh, no, you can't read Forrest Gump because it's terrible. It's really bad. The movie is better than the book. In two pages, Forrest goes from protesting the Vietnam. on war, to be enthroned in a mental health hospital, to becoming an astronaut, to going to

outer space with a gorilla, the wrong gorilla, to crash landing the space shuttle with in Papua New Guinea where he lives with cannibals. That all happens in two pages. So I'm sorry, Jim Hufflefinger, you're not Forrest Gump. Wow. The book is insane. You're baiting me in. The book. No one in the right mind would read that book. And I read that damn book. Don't read the book. The movie's great. I love the book. Yeah. Half a finger. Not for kids.

Half a finger winds up. No, there's a part. Yeah. I just wanted to move on. Yeah, let's move on. Just this morning, I was talking about having Heffel finger come back on the show about something totally different, which is super fascinating. He can speak for himself. Okay.

Who's up? Seth. I can't wait for him. Speaking of technology. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Seth's first news story. Yeah, hopefully it goes well. We'll see. Did you practice it in front of your wife?

No. You will. There's no guarantees, Seth. I'm not worried about it. A recent study published by the I-C-E-S journal Marine Science found that boats using the Omni-Sonar or Omni-Directional Sonar while fishing the Big Rock Blue Marlin tournament, which is a billfish tournament. Out of Moorhead City, North Kakagia. Michael Jordan competes in that one. Yeah.

Is that the same one where the dude had the one that got bit by half? Shard or something like that. Yeah, okay. They found that boats that were using the technology experienced 60 to 84% higher catch rates than boats without the technology. I wish I could whistle better because I'd go. What is Omni Sonar, you might ask? Well, it is. That's a nice way to do.

It's great, dude. It is an advanced underwater scanning system that gives anglers a 360-degree live sonar view. That's what the screen looks like. Visual aids? Jeez, man. So that there on the left would be a mark, a fish. Really? Yeah.

What's the other stuff? It's just in a circle. It's like sea currents and stuff like that. And you're able to like tell how far that mark is from the boat. Yeah. Somehow I don't exactly. It's like very high tech stuff that I have no experience with. But, and I was watching a video on it.

And it seems like they can click on that with a cursor and they can go to it. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, well. Not Remy, but Renee. Renee. He uses it. Yeah.

I called him a few times and never got a lot of. He said that they basically, they don't troll anymore. Yeah. They find the fish and then they feed that fish a particular bait that they've rigged up. I was watching a video of it and they're like, oh, there's a mark. And they like clicked on it. And the boat like kind of navigated to that mark. And he's like, all right, we're going over it right now.

And he scans over, he scans his phone over. to down imaging he's like there's the fish and then he turns around and starts filming his baits that he's trolling and then he hooks up on fish sons of bitches man what's that i'm jealous or yeah man i don't know anyway it's like it's like uh forward facing sonar but it's like a three it casts like a 360 degree beam around the boat and like yeah and it descends out of the hole yeah it's a through a hole transducer i have pictures of the thing. If we were live a long time ago and someone invented a hook, would we be like,

what's the world coming to? You got to use a goal. No, they're using hooks. I was in a technology seminar at the North American wildlife thing a couple weeks ago. And one of their examples of emerging technology was choke tubes that people were like, what's the world coming to? Ducing right there.

Variable chokes. Go to number three. So here's. That's. in a new one. To the right here, the far right is the actual unit. Huh. And then that's the hole in the bottom of the hole in the middle.

And then that's the transducer coming out of the bottom. So you can put that sucker in and retract it out. This is a phenomenal presentation. You don't want to be underway. I don't think with that. No, you got to, you got to. Did it say how much these systems cost? Yeah, I was going to get to that towards the end.

God. Look out. Dude. Seth's going to need a new job. I'm going to get voted off the island. All right. So the study. analyzed

two years Take Randall's C over there? Sure. It's nice and warm. The study analyzed two years of data from this specific tournament. Okay.

2000, 24, 2025. And the scientists doing the study compared catch rates between boats equipped with the technology and without it. And they found

that the technology significantly increased catch rates of blue marlin and other pelagic species. Data from 302 participants was analyzed in 2024 and 272 participants in 2025. Of the 574 participants, about 50-50 were using the sonar. Yeah. In the two years that were analyzed, 46 of the boats. Okay, this is a lot of numbers here. Okay.

46 of the boats caught four or more billfish. So you can kind of see in this chart here, the light blue does not have it. Dark blue has it. So all the way left there, that's, you know, 160 plus boats that do not have the sonar caught zero fish. Okay. you know, whatever. 75-ish caught no fish. If you go all the way to the right.

So 160 boats with no sonar caught zero fish. 78 boats with no sonar caught zero fish. Yeah. With sonar. With sonar. Sorry. With sonar. Yeah.

So if you go to the right here, there is, you know, you start getting to the part of the chart where boats with. without the sonar aren't catching over five fish. Can I, can I interpret this real quick? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. It's a little confusing. No, it is, but I'm just trying to think about people not listening. Yeah.

So if you look at like boats that got skunk, okay, you got 160 boats with no sonar that got sconed. You got 75 boats with sonar that got skunk. So it's not a guarantee, right? But then you get down and let's say you're talking about catching, Four fish. At the point when it's you caught four billfish, no boats with no sonar caught four. Yep.

Only people that caught four are boats with sonar. Five fish. No one with no sonar is catching five. Six. No one with no sonar is catching six. Seven same, eight same, nine same. Yep. So basically this chart is saying if you don't have sonar, your catch is capped at three billfish.

If you have it, it seems, you'd have the potential to catch nine. But then this is the question I got for you. And I told you this when we talked. Is it just the classic case of that those dudes, that the dudes that are so serious they would have caught more anyway, are also the guys that happen to have the sonar. Well, I got something for you. Okay. Whoa.

There were, from 2024 or 2025, there were 16 boats that went from not having the technology to having it. Oh. And their catch rate increased by 94%. Ah. Wow. Seth. Dude, you could convict someone in a jury trial. I liked the four catch because that's like, like, it's like people without sonar, but really

know the system, the currents, they're, they're, they're, fishy dudes. That's where they drop off. Yeah. Right? It's like they've, all that skill then is outmatched by the advantage of technology. Am I hallucinating? Is there a blip at 18? Yeah.

Sonar boat. Oh yeah. I didn't even notice that. That's a sonar boat. So then there's a sonar boat that is clocking in. Yeah. At 18 billfish. Yeah, that had six of those sonars.

I mean, another way to read this. They had one really good day. Another way to read this is that the majority of boats without sonar got skunked. And that boats with sonar were just as likely to catch one or two essentially as getting skunk. Ripping lips. Riffing bills. Why, this might come back to the cost thing, but why would some boats not even have it? Because it's new.

Well, so he's got something. for that. Great question, Brody. The researchers looked at the teams that struggled during the tournament and of the boats that didn't catch any billfish, those without Omnis Sonar outnumbered those with it more than

two to one. So cost breakdown. The Omni Directional Sonar unit, depending on who you get it from, is $95,000 to $100,000. Install is 25 to $300,000. 30 grand. But if you install it, Seth,

could you install one? Seth's pretty handy on what I'd have to. I don't, you gotta cut a whole like in your boat. No problem. They're cutting a hole in a really expensive boat. And it's not just any boat. It's a lot of dough.

This is a million or $2 million dollar boat. You know, 70 foot Vikings. Big expensive boats. I feel like for a lot of these boat owners, that cost is not like prohibitive. This just kind of puts in perspective. The tournament. entry fee is $50,000 per boat. And the purse in total is just over $6.3 million. Oh, you're wasting money if you're fishing without some. Yeah, but you still got to have it be to your wife's like looking at credit card stuff. And there's like a zinger. There is a zinger. Maybe on there that isn't normally on there. What's this $100,000 thing? I'd be really interesting.

to know, like, fuel consumed with boats with versus without. Good argument. That's what you wind up telling or you see, like, baby, listen. This is more ecologically friendly. The amount of the amount this is going to save me on fuel. Yeah. And your percentage.

Winnings? The percentage of winning goes up higher. That's the reasonable, uh, uh, the 23 boats out there is, there's a lot of side money being wager. The Calcutta is, is the big money in these tournaments. So then you just say, you like, baby, listen, man, it's like, when you look at all my prize money and fuel savings, you're going to thank me. I can go out and get a fish and be back for time at the country club.

Yeah. Play a game of tennis with you in the afternoon. To take your mom. It's an investment in our relationship. Eventually, it'll be, uh, they'll be like, oh, that mark's not big enough. We need to go find a bigger one. Well, that's how it's first year. Bass fish, you know. That one of these was in the tournament.

Was there one boat that had it? Or was there already five boats that had it? Like, was there one year where one guy was just like, Or was there five boats that were thinking that, you know? I'm sure. I think that's how it was. What are you sure about? I think that's how it was with like the Bass Master Elite series, you know, like

somebody was the first year forward facing sonar came on the scene. A couple boats had it. Yeah. They were doing it well. I mean, it took a lot. I'd like to know if it was one or if it was 10. I don't know. Hey, I want to point out too.

Seth was just talking about that you got bad grades in high school. Yeah, Jimmy has a bright feature. So there is a path. Look at this guy. Look this guy over here. The hell of a report. Seth Morris. Well done.

Holy smokes. This is an amazing segment. Keeping up with the Jordans. Power this thing down, Phil. Amazing segment. Yeah. Lounge time. I'm Luke Wilson.

Join me each week for Film Never Lies. Since retiring from the NFL, I've had a lot of my mind, and now I've got my own show. If you're tired of lazy takes, if you want honest conversations, join us each week. Film Never Lies available on all TSN platforms in the IHeart Radio app. Hunting demands preparation, persistence, and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear First Light. This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear.

Built to perform, built to last, whether it's their industry leading merino wool, keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot, or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements. First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer. Designed by hunters, four hunters, with a deep commitment to, conservation and land access, no shortcuts, no excuses. Just gear you can count on. Head to firstlight.com.

That's f-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. That's you, Spencer. South Dakota announced earlier this month that they are creating a new elk unit that will have an unlimited number of tags. Before we talk about that, though, we should look at the history of elk in the state. It's kind of frame how we got here. Elker native to damn near the entire lower 48. Phil has a map there for us that shows this is from the U.S. Forest Service,

shows their historic range. Outside of Florida and a little bit of New England, elk touched damn near every state. And for context, their footprint is very similar to the distribution of whitetail deer. Like, that's how much they crossed the entire continent. I'll tell you what I didn't know, this is a great graphic. What I didn't know is that they didn't like the cascades. Yeah.

They like both sides. There's a big gap there. Interesting. They didn't like the actual spine. No, the Sierra Nevada, sorry. Didn't like Sierra Nevada. Cascades, I'd say that's up there in North Washington. Central Oregon.

Specific to South Dakota, Manitoba, and elk are native to the whole state, as they are much of the great plains. West of there, starting in central Montana, central Wyoming, the Rocky Mountain elk, east of there, starting Minnesota, Iowa, or the eastern elk. Elk were extirpated from South Dakota in the late 1800s. It's thought the last one was killed during 1888. The state started restocking them almost immediately, less than a couple decades later. And they got those elk from Yellowstone, Jackson Hole. And by 1928, South Dakota had an elk season again. So, you know, 30 years later, they were hunting them.

Now, those restocking efforts were focused on the Black Hills, which is where about 85% of the state's herd lives today. There is a picture from Wind Cave National Park of an elk herd. If you're not familiar, the Black Hills are located in way western South Dakota. It's where Mount Rushmore is, just east of Devil's Tower in Wyoming. The Black Hills, they rise up out of the prairie. It's separate from the Rocky Mountains, and it's actually home to Black Elk Peak, which is the highest point east of the Rocky Mountains at 7,200 feet. The Black Hills are just like textbook elk habitat.

There's about 8,000 of them that live there today. Now, most of the bull tags that are considered once-in-a-lifetime tags, In 2025, 42,000 hunters applied for 2,500 licenses. Actually, today, as we sit here, the archery draw happened and the rifle draw. So some folks are finding out that they just drew one of these lifetime tags. They just got their email. Congratulations. In 2025, 42,000 hunters applying for 2,500 licenses.

Even having dozens of preference points isn't good enough to guarantee a tag. Last year in one of their more popular units, there were six applicants who had 20,000, seven preference points and only one of those six drew a tag. That means those hunters had been applying since the 1990s. Talk about point. They still have to wait some more. We're looking at one of these draw tables right now. There were three guys with 28 points and only one of them drew a tag.

So you're up for a long wait there. Harvest rates are always really high though because there's intense, intense management, spreads out haunting pressure, limits licenses for bulls. Again, that's specific to the Black Hills where most of the states elk live. The other 15% of the elk are spread out across the prairie. And there's some very limited hunting that happens with those herds. Most of those elk live on the west side of the Missouri River. The Missouri River kind of perfectly splits the state in half and actually plays a significant role in the state's wildlife management.

When it comes to big game, deer, turkeys, elk, even some of their waterfowl, the state has kind of broadly created three distinct zones that they manage. There's the Black Hills where all the elk live. Then there's West River, which is everything left of the Missouri River. That's not part of the Black Hills. And then there's East River, which is everything right of the Missouri River. When it comes to elk... It's easy to remember. Yeah.

When you're having like a conversation with another South Dakota, it's like East River or West River. You know, it comes to like deer hunting where you grew up, where you pheasant hunt. It's just like perfectly cuts the state in half. It makes it very clean for managing game as well as just communicating about game. When it comes to elk, the Black Hills has those herds that we talked about. And then there's the West River where some sporadic populations live, variety of landscapes, Butte country, badlands, cedar draws, cattle pastures, prairie, ag, river bottoms. It's not all that different than what you'd find in eastern Montana, for example,

or western Nebraska where elk also live. There's about a half dozen West River units that give out some tags. And it's thought that there's a few thousand elk that live west of the Missouri River that are not in the Black kills. Then there's East River. There are just a sprinkling of elk that exist East River. This is a trail cam photo I got three years ago, way eastern South Dakota, not even really close to the Missouri River, but they do exist there. Where are they coming out of? If you see one where I grew up in way eastern South Dakota, there would be equal chance that it came from Western South Dakota or western Nebraska, or it came from a high fence farm somewhere in Minnesota, eastern South Dakota,

just wandered off one day and got away. So this is a bull elk. I got at a pinch point. I was bow hunting, I think, in 2023. I also saw one on the hoof in 2017. So it happens. It's a thing. The state doesn't provide any official numbers for the herds East River. There's just some guessing as to what their rate is. But up until this year, if you were to shoot an elk east river, you'd be considered a poacher. You'd get fat fine,

you'd lose your hunting rights. You'd just be labeled a straight-up evil person by your fellow outdoorsman because you took one of the state's most coveted animals out of a range that is expanding to all on its own. That is no longer the case, though, in South Dakota, because they are now giving out an unlimited number of elk tags for everything east of the Missouri River besides tribal lands,

which is its own thing. But they want them gone. They want them gone. They want them gone. They want to eliminate them. Because of what? Agriculture. Yeah. We'll get to it.

The new LLT. Are they going to kill all the deer too? No. Okay. It's, I like you are accepted. For now they're safe. The new elk tag, it's created to eradicate the elk that live east of Missouri

River. Because when they eat something, it's different. Very different. Here's some quotes from the South Dakota game fishing parks reps about this new tag. Quote, elk are a fantastic big game animal. that are welcome in every other part of the state. But the fact is we just can't tolerate having them in eastern South Dakota.

Here's who. Here's another quote from director Tom Kirshman. He said this in the meeting where this was voted on, quote, we have no intentions of managing elk on the prairie in the eastern part of the state. Now, during this brief process, the GFP is referenced that these elk are creating problems with landowners by eating crops and wrecking fences,

which is why they explicitly said they will not tolerate them. Here's a picture in western South Dakota of a bull elk that is feasting. Just a little boring. Some bitches like at a blind. Yeah, he's standing right in front of an elevated redneck blind. Legislative committee voted fortitude to allow this in a separate vote by the GFP commissioners. It's a group of eight appointed by the governor. They unanimously voted to approve this.

So the GFP suits are all about this elk eradication. plan. Residents do not agree with him, though. I posted a poll in a private Facebook group called the East River South Dakota hunting and fishing, which is just what it sounds like. It's largely made up of South Dakota residents who like to hunt and fish east of the Missouri River. There are 17,000 people in this Facebook group. I asked, what do you think of the new unlimited East River Elk Tags? Do you approve, disapprove? We're not sure. 323 people took this poll. 17% said that they approve, 73% said they disapprove and 10% said they're not sure. That means that more than 7 out of 10 South Dakotaans do not like this management decision.

Are you sure that wasn't the Iran War? I haven't seen that talked about in the East River South Dakota hunting. This is remarkably similar breakdown. It's a similar approval rate. Of the 17% that approved, do they have access to Al? Sorry, go ahead. Of the 17% that approved, do they have access to a place to hunt out? Uh-huh.

Yeah, they're like, I've been seeing one. Yeah. It's, it's indefensible. I'm, I'm with you. I agree with the 73%. It's like, it's native wildlife. It's like God put them there. I was expecting you, Steve, to do a gotcha and say, well, they're Rocky Mountain elk.

So they're not actually native. But South Dakota in their elk management plan calls elk the biggest native deer that's hunted in the state. So they consider, even though they're Rocky Mountain elk and not native to South Dakota, they call them a native animal. Well, I mean, the elk. In Pennsylvania and Kentucky are Rocky Mountain elk, too. I know, but I'm talking about it. If they knew that it was all game farm escapes. It's not.

I could see it. If you have elk, wild elk, walking in on their own four feet onto native habitat, that's a no-no. Yeah. That's like a moral no-no. Their main argument is that the elk are creating private land conflicts. Well, guess what? That happens in every state.

Eastern Montana, western Nebraska, Western North Dakota, eastern Wyoming, eastern Colorado, central Pennsylvania. Yeah, you have to kill every elk in the country. And just across the Missouri River in South Dakota, the same thing happens. And this is something-

And deer are a pain in the ass, depending on your perspective. Totally. You hit them with your car, that's a pain in the ass. They eat your crops. That's a pain in the ass. I don't know. Ticks, whatever. You should kill all everything.

It feels like- Ducks can be a pain in the ass. Maybe this is where they would have landed eventually, but they skipped like 20 steps to get here. You know, they went from, hey, we have elk expanding all on their own to we don't want them here. So we just have to eliminate them. Turkeys can be a pain.

They should kill all the turkeys. Turkeys can be a pain in the ass. Yeah. There's hazing programs. There's depredation tags. There's reimbursements given to landowners who carry that burden of feeding elk. There are reimbursements given to landowners that allow elk hunting. These are all tools that South Dakota currently uses when they manage their elk.

But for some reason, they've gone away from. all of those for this East River herd and they're going straight to, we need to get rid of them. Is there other state that, I don't, maybe you looked into this, maybe, is there other states that feel the same way about elk like Kansas or? Well, Yanni brought it up there, like in Texas.

Yeah, Texas. I agree. I, I don't. Yeah, but Texas turned around and made native elk non-native. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, Arkin, a lot of their reintroduced states do have zones of like

tolerance kind of like we do for the bison. So it's like outside of here, then there's way more liberal tags or, you know, various ways of management. Understood. I think that it's easy to say, oh, let's just have them there, but you have to remember that it costs a lot of money to manage these animals. And when you have a new population like that, it's like if all of a sudden you said, oh, I have the money, I will pay for it to, for you to manage these animals. They'd probably be more forthcoming. How much is it costing them? And again, like they, oh, I think a lot. I mean, just that, well, because it's, it's, it's the ag depredation, right?

Like, that's where like, but the elk west of the river are eating crops. They are, but it's been like socially accepted there. I still. It's like the West River Prairie unit that's like kind of new as well. I mean, like, if I were to talk to my dad or my father and all, that came along in their lifetime. And they're just like cool with, you know, having Elk West River that, that. landowners deal with. Is it a thing where the damage is happening now or they're just trying to get ahead of it as before that population?

Here's what's going on. I don't know this, but I know. Do you know what I'm saying? You ever have a thing where you know, but you don't know? Well, I all the time from you. There's some guy. There's a well-heeled guy. A hundred percent.

There's a well-heeled guy that has the ear of his local politicians. Yes. And he's down there and the local politician really looks up to him because he's like the salt of the earth and he wishes he was like that guy right and that guy's like I don't want these son of a bitch and elk running around yeah and the guy's like well I'm tough too I'm a big tough guy rancher guy and so he's like we'll kill them all when you'll see how tough I am when they reference the east river population of elk they say they mostly exist between pier and chamberlain pier is the state capital um and so it's it exactly what you said steve that's

what people suspect. Is that like there is someone who has the year of peer, there is a donor who would like, we'll get to benefit from this. Or he just wants to be able to show up, he wants to be able to shoot him because it's big bulls. Yeah, he's got big bulls hanging out next to his blind. Can I give you an example of my argument?

If you can do it quick, because we've got to keep the show moving. In Wisconsin, I was talking to some of our neighbors who experienced elk depredation of their crops last year. And a couple counties to the north, it happens all the time. And they pay out the farmer.

It's no big deal. So they've been letting, like, this population is growing. It's come down into the county where we have some land in. There, the soil, the soil is extremely more fertile than two counties to the north. So there's a much higher production per acre. And so the payout that they're having to do for the same amount of acreage, when an elk comes in and kills, you know, one acre, it can be tenfold. The dough.

but extend the logic all wildlife is a pain in the ass i understand it's like geese eat crops so if the logic holds they should cease to exist it's always been true of everything if the fact that something causes problems means it shouldn't be around and you extend that logic out it's silent spring. All wildlife is a pain in the ass. From someone's perspective, I have a thing living in my wall right now. Whatever that is, I'm not going to, I believe

it might be a pine squirrel. I'm not going to be like, they all need to die. You might have a mouse soon. No, it's too big. This thing is big. No, I'm saying that mouse might be sure pretty soon. There's no way they're going to hang out of that mouse. To hit on.

I'm out of that thing. A couple more things real quick. I feel like typically it's kind of a lazy argument when wildlife managed to be like we should just relocate them if there's like a problem bear we should move it you know if there's like elk are causing crop damage we should we should move it from the 1970s to the 1990s in a 20 year span uh south dakota relocated over 700 elk so this is like something they've done in the past they're very capable of putting these things but every one of those thousands of dollars okay but like that's a better alternative i think

than just like getting rid of these things. I disagree. I want to move on by disagree. Then relocating them. I'm saying the state's done before. I'm having trouble with the new format of the show. There's this drive to keep moving. That's the episode title today.

Just let them hunt the damn things, but don't make it unlimited. Give all some tags. Just keep moving. You got anything else? Go to my final image, Phil. Would you hurry up, Spencer. The state record typical was killed a few years ago. It gross, or it scored 392,

gross, 383 net. And guess what? That elk was living on private land in western South Dakota on the prairie. Like this is a bull that just on the other side of the river spent all of his life for most of his life living on private ground. And South Dakota is very happy to manage these elk. The ranchers deal with them. And we produced a state record bull. And a very happy man.

That guy does make any sense. You could, you produced the state record. You could have a spike be the state record. it'd have to be we produced a world record bowl. Well, we produced a 383. Yeah, that makes sense. But like you see what I'm saying, right? Yeah.

I don't want to spend too much time on it. Speaking of elk. Speaking of elk. I got another story about elk. We need to manage them like a game animal, not a decent animal. Hell yes, man. Done. Done.

I'm going to send a letter or complaint to the South Dakota Tourism Board. Chronic wasting disease. Well, before I get to the National Elk Refugee. Delaware just became 37 state with CWD, which leads into what I'm going to talk about. Chronic wasting disease was just detected on, like officially detected on the National Elk Refuge near Jackson, Wyoming. If you don't know what the National Outfuge is, it was established in 1912 near Jackson, Wyoming after severe winters and overhunting decimated the elk herd in that area in the late 1800s, early 1900s, kind of the same. same story that was happening everywhere. It's where South Dakota got some of their elk.

Yeah. It's a federally managed wildlife refuse. Congress created it to provide winter habitat and do supplemental feeding. Stay close to your mic there, Brody. To avoid, you know, having that whole herd starve to death. Ultimately, it became the largest wintering ground for elk in North America. And on average, anywhere from 8 to 11. thousand elk spend the winter there.

And it's become a major tourist attraction. Just to bring it home and dispensers deal. Part of the current justification for the elk refuge is that it reduces because they do supplemental. Are you going to get to that? Oh yeah. All that stuff. Sorry, man. It's kind of.

It's all right. That's all right. Jump in the gun. It's hard. It's hard. I'd like to move on. Before we get to the CWD and this thing. the national elf refuge is federally managed. The state of Wyoming also has 21 other elk feed grounds in the northwestern part of the state.

Now, it's the same reasoning to have these things, prevent large-scale winter starvation, maintain large elk populations and associated hunting opportunity, reduce conflict with ranch lands like haystacks, livestock feed, Reducing transmission of bruselosis between elk and cattle and to support tourism and wildlife viewing. People like CWD, like scientists have been warning about these feed grounds forever as far as what CWD is concerned. But the state of Wyoming has kind of painted themselves into a corner with this supplemental feeding. And they acknowledge that without these feed grounds, Northwest Wyoming, would likely support fewer elk and the distribution of those elk would would shift substantially

that go other places um but again like researchers have been warning about this because on these feed lots elk feed nose to nose could yeah got it up um they feed nose to nose along feed lines and they're they're concentrated like unnaturally and unnaturally dense concentrations during the winter. Additionally, the prions from CWD, they accumulate in the soil and elk are repeatedly using the same contaminated grounds year after year. So just preons.

Prions. The guy that invented the word says preons. Okay, that's good enough for me. Heffelfinger told me. Man, more Heffelfinger. So in May of this year, Wildlife officials like confirm the first known CWD positive elk on the national elk refuge. It was an adult cow that was euthanized.

CWD had been detected in the broader like Jackson area surrounding the refuge in 2020, but this was the first time it was detected like on the actual elk refuge. on other Wyoming feed grounds. There's 21 of them, but Scab Creek, Del Creek, Horse Creek, Blackbeaut,

Muddy Creek, CWD's been detected on all of those feed grounds within the last couple of years. So, like, you've got a situation where it's like pretty obvious that concentrating these elk in small areas, a bunch of them over the winter

and feeding them supplementally, like artificially feeding them is causing a problem with CWD. Well, you don't know that because you have CWD. Like Montana doesn't do feed. Montana doesn't allow bait. You can't bait in the state

and the state doesn't feed. But state's got CWD popping up all over the place. Okay. So I'm just saying, it's like you you can't say that the only place that's occurring

I didn't say it's the only place. And I'll be saying it's leading to problems. We don't know. You don't really know. You can guess. But where is it coming from in all the other places? Well, I think the safest guess, right? Like, we can throw the origin out.

If it's here now and this continues, yes. This is going to be a breeding situation for the spread of CWD. I would expect to see, yes. I agree with you there. I would expect to see a higher rate of transmission. But I'm saying, like, I don't know. I don't think it's birthing. It's not birthing the disease.

It's not, but it's contribute, it's likely going to contribute to the spread of the disease at a much faster rate. They're worried about more persistent environmental contamination. So in the soil and in vegetation, things like that, they certainly think it's going to cause higher term, higher long term infection rates could lead to increased mortality and long term population declines in some, elk herds. Plus, it's got close proximity to high fence operations that have terrible records of keeping animals within the high fence. So like there's been, Wyoming is not going to close these feedlots. They're just not going to do it.

Why? Because they've painted them 30 years. They need to, they're kind of in a situation where they need to maintain these elk numbers, right? There's an expectation for it. So the plan. expanded surveillance and testing, having hunters,

turn in more animals, increased monitoring, things like that. Okay. So then you just know, okay. Yeah. I'm just telling you,

that's their plan. That's kind of a road plan. That's just like being like, hey, you know, I'd be like, hey, you know,

my kids dying of a fever. Oh, no, I'm going to keep taking this temperature. Sure. I'll just eradicate them. I'll just keep taking this temp. The,

the state's, known that this was like an inevitable situation forever. And so it's like what did the state has there been any. Yeah, but you're going to keep taking his temp, but are you bringing him to the doctor? Right. No, it's monitoring temp. Yeah. I mean, they, they don't have an answer. Their, their, their answer is to maintain feeding operations and do what they can to slow disease transmission, whatever that means. So long as we don't quit feeding. Yeah. It's like they had, They're going to put up a sign. Please, elk, don't go super close to each other while eating the food we put out for you.

I don't understand. I just want to clarify. I totally understand. You're coming at me pretty hard. Yeah. I was hoping you'd have a better plan. I'm not coming at you hard. If I was in charge.

I don't know the answer. I don't know that the answer is to stop doing it. It's just, I don't know. I seem like I want to clarify, I'm just a curious guy sitting here. I don't know the right answer. I think, and from my perspective, The answer would be to maybe slowly wean them off of this situation. They starve to death if they just quit feeding them?

Some would. Some would for sure. I mean, you've got like an unnaturally high concentration of animals. It'd be like if we quit making GMOs, you're going to have tons of humans starve to death. But eventually you won't need them anymore. Think about a severe winter where there would be natural winter kill like around here. Yeah. Down there, they're like loving life.

It doesn't matter how severe the winter is. Brody has some images here that are very. very real, but they look like Photoshop, because it's just such a ridiculous amount of element in one space. Yep. There have been efforts, lawsuits to try and get these feed lots

closed, but they've failed. So, you know, does that come from hunters or does it come from animal rights people? You know, I think it's more along the animal rights end of things, but I'd have to look into it.

No, I mean, on this disease thing, like, because Idaho feeds on occasion and in certain areas. And they have different, they have feeding programs that, that started when elk from Yellowstone and Jackson Hole were brought to Idaho to reestablish herds that are still going.

Their argument though is like, this pulls elk on their migration route away from like population centers and, and avoid some human conflict. So it's not just purely the food aspect. It's like manipulating where animals go in the winter. I understand. Sure.

And that helps to prevent conflicts with ranching operations. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, hunters have been saying, this is going to bring disease to the herd. Some hunters, but for a long time.

I think there's also, I mean, say Wyoming says it too. It's like, we're sustaining these large elk fox. populations and that sustains great hunting opportunity. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, but like, do you want a lot of burger that you're paranoid about or less burger that

you're not paranoid about? There is an unbelievable amount of elk in that country. It is wild. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where we're at. Not during feeding soon. It was bound to happen and it did is basically where we're at.

Thank you, Brody. Yep. Yep. Thanks, Brody. This May, IHart Radio celebrates Asian Heritage Month. Discover powerful stories. vibrant cultures and unforgettable music. You're the only place that I'm

from inspiring podcasts to playlist that span East, South, Southeast, and West Asian artists honoring the voices shaping our world. Listen now on the free IHAR Radio app. And at iHareRadio.ca. Hunting demands preparation, persistence, and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear first light.

This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear. Built to perform, built to last, whether it's their industry leading merino wool, keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot, or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements. First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer. Designed by hunters, four hunters,

with a deep commitment to conservation and land access. No shortcuts, no excuses. Just gear you can count on. head to first light.com. That's f-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. Back on Randall's weekly bad stuff happening, public lands beat. Today we were going to talk about the rescinding of the public lands rule. Then we moved on to a certified public lands transfer guy, confirmed as BLM director. Then we're going to talk about the House bill to repeal the roadless rule, which goes to committee on Thursday, but got another bad idea to cover. And this one is a bill. It's a proposed bill

that's originating in Republican Senator Bill Cassidy's office to transfer roughly 24% of the Cassatchee National Forest to Louisiana's Grant Parish, which is Louisiana equivalent of a county. Specifically, the land would go to the local school board and the police jury, which, again, there's all kinds of different names in Louisiana for things, but that's basically the county commissioners. And the police jury, to their credit, immediately voiced its opposition to the bill because they saw how deeply unpopular it was.

Again, this is just a draft bill. As far as I know, it hasn't been introduced, and I always think that's important when you're talking about legislation to look at where it is, because you'll see, you know, you'll read headlines that say, like, the Democrats in what, whatever, want to ban pants or the Republicans want to do this, but it's oftentimes just some

whack job who's written a bill in their office and has no, you know, chance of passing. So just that disclaimer out there. But the bill, this bill would amend, I do, I do love a bill to ban pants just to see how, just, I love that bill. Yeah, yeah, and then you can go back, you can go back to your wackadoo donors and tell them, you know, I'm fighting the fight against pants, right? But this, big shorts. This bill would amend the internal revenue clothes. Oh, big shorts, lob. Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about like alternative.

This would build and support alternative lower half of your body garments. I was thinking of just bare ass. Yeah, but no, I think that's why it's important to have like a very careful legislative staff. But this would, this would direct, it would amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and direct the Secretary of Agriculture to forfeit all. rights, title, and interest to all portions of the Cassatchi National Forest contained within the borders of Grant Parish, which is about 140,000 acres of public lands. So the bill would just say that goes to the county. They would also get the buildings, the vehicles, the equipment, and all the records of the Forest Service. The, I guess the justification for this is that Bill

Casti claims that this is, the National Forest is hindered. economic development in Grant Parish. But he just got his nut slap by Trump so bad. He did. He did. So I think this, I think this hit the headlines like the day after he was primary. That's why everybody knows who he is now. So his logic behind this is economic development.

Yes. For that land. Yes. Yes. And hat tip to the Louisiana Wildlife Federation kind of rang the alarm about this. And then I saw the story from Travis Hall at Field and Stribby does a great job of covering all kinds of public land stuff. But the Louisiana Wildlife Federation issued a statement.

I mean, one thing that they point to that's interesting is they're tucking this public land transfer into a big tax and economic development bill. And so the Louisiana Wildlife Federation is pointing, like, what you're doing here is reducing the visibility of public lands policy decision-making by tucking it into this other, you know, like- Yeah, like, burying the pants band. like being the pants ban in some complex things. So some guy one day realizes in the bottom of it, it says, oh, and no more pants.

Yeah, no more pants. No more pants. So, you know, you got to read these things carefully. But they have rang the alarm, raised the red flag over this. I don't necessarily know where this is going, if at all, because it's a very early stage. But again, it's just like, man, these, like there are people out there who want to do this stuff. It's not a boogie man. It's not a, you know, far off, like there's people hidden away in back rooms who are never

actually going to do this stuff. Like, his office is working on this. And this, as far as I understand, just from reading about it, like this seems like a treasure of our public land system. It was clear cut and then established in the 1930s under the Weeks Act where we get a lot of our eastern national forests. And it's got a lot of. Longleaf pine, a lot of wildlife.

There's fishing, hunting, camping. It's like a prime recreation destination in the central part of the state. When the U.S. Mintz did a quarter dedicated to the Cassachi National Forest, all they put on there is a wild turkey. Yeah, I brought that quarter in one day. I was a little Spencer thing I've ever heard in my life. This is one of the places.

I gave that quarter to you. You still got it? Louisiana where, you know how you can never kill white tails on public land in Louisiana? No. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a thing that many people talk about. And from what I read briefly, it's like known for big deer. It's known for big bucks.

Does Cassidy have a history of? Not that I know of. Not that I know of. It seems like it's kind of out of left field. I mean, he's really known as, I believe he's a physician. And so he's really, a lot of his controversy lately has been his relationship with, like, RFK, he voted to confirm RFK and then he's come out against a lot of the stuff that's happening over there. But I appreciate the maver.

I appreciate his maverick nonpartisan streak. I appreciate it. They kind of go in your own way and not taking, not taking, uh, you know, not listening to the boss man for everything you do. I appreciate that, but this is dumb. Yeah. And he knows it's dumb. And it's, and a lot of the, the guys who are demonstrating this nonpartisan, not bowing to the boss behavior are the ones that are out of a job. in their primary.

So a big picture like, you know, we have the Forest Service overhaul. They're going to be closing research stations in Louisiana. The roadless rule, as I said, is there's now a house bill to rescind it. Not only rescind it, but make it mandatory that we the people, the taxpayer, pay for new roads. Yeah. Yeah. So just there's arrows coming at the National Forests from all sides right now. One of the last things I did last night, it was probably 10 p.m.

I called Zinky and Downing left in a message about that. Nice. Because I received yet another email from BHA. I was like, all right, I'm doing it. You shouldn't be checking your phone at night on it. It's bad for your sleep. I don't understand. Okay.

I don't understand what his incentive is to do anything now. Like, you know what? No, I think this will go away. It's still fun to talk about. So we can do a good news story when it doesn't go anywhere. That's true. That's true. Okay, reporting from the Michigan Deer Desk, we're really bouncing around the country today.

That's intentional. Good. It's a programming decision. This one, I figure, is going to be a real challenge because you and I have so much attachment, nostalgia to the story that... Not me. I grew up north of the line, dude. I know. Exactly.

Which is why I feel like you're going to have to weigh in. Our side. So, big news out of Michigan, it's becoming a one-buck state and has eliminated their southern shotgun zone, meaning the entire state is now open to rifle use for deer hunting. So for those that you don't know, you can throw up our little map there. And I took this from Onex. Thanks, guys. but zone one there is the upper peninsula and you can use a rifle up there when I was a kid in the lower peninsula you could use a rifle above that line that cuts through the middle where

Steve was below that line we had to use shotguns reason being when I when I grew up the reason being for that they always told us is because it's a highly more highly populated area and if you had a real rifle high-powered rifle and you're shooting at deer you're more likely to shoot out of the woods across the county road and into someone's house. We got the same rule right here in the ballot. Yeah, it put a hole through old lady Burns's house or something, you know? Yeah. I asked Brent Rudolph, who's Michigan's deer elk and moose management specialist.

Their deer specialist is named Rudolph. I know. I didn't bring that up with him, but, yeah. I would have a very hard time not bring that up, but. I didn't want to take too much of his time. Even if I didn't bring it up, I still would have said, huh. You always know, you know when he has a good idea. Better name than heffa finger.

To be a deer biologist. Ouch, out, out, out. Here comes an email. Not only was it for the safety thing, but that rule was implemented back when we didn't have as many deer. Oh, I didn't know that. That was part of the motivation. Yeah, so part of the motivation was,

like, hey, so that every deer that comes out on the, you know, back crop field doesn't get waxed. Let's limit weapons a little bit. Back then, we were limited to 50 yards. Now, shot and shoot 200 yards. Well, they went straight walled cartridge.

Well, right. And so recently, a few years ago, Michigan, along with other states, too, allowed straight walled cartridges, which was just like inching towards going to high power, but not quite. Again, Brent told me, he's like, yeah, we actually don't have data that proves that using high-powered rifle cartridges is any less safe than using the shotguns. So as a move to...

But it's kind of like, you know, like Bob Dylan said, I don't need a weatherman to tell what way the wind blows. Meaning, you might not have data, but come on. Plus, I think you can also make rules like that to keep the people that aren't hunters. like to kind of pass by them. Be like, sure, but of course it does. Because imagine the extreme.

Imagine you made an infinity, an infinity round. It just went around the world and around the world and around the world. It's going to hit something. Yeah, I don't think it'd make it around the world once. No, I think it hits something well before that.

Yeah. So back then, they didn't want to kill, uh, clip a twig. People or too many deer. Yeah. Now,

Michigan is, we've covered this. I think it was it last year or two years ago that they wrote a letter to Michigan's sports people and said folks, you guys have to kill those. They didn't do it. So this is a step towards making it easier.

They're hoping. It's small, incremental, but a way to less barriers, right? You don't have to have another, you know, a shotgun that shoots slugs to shoot a deer, right? You just have your 30 out six because you hunt somewhere where you can use that? Well, no, all those people are going to have to go up and buy rifles now. I got a text message from guys suck the other morning. Pump up that. He said he's getting out the old 30-a-6 and he says, you've never seen a run on

ammo like you've got to see that. That's amazing. He's right. He's right. So, yeah, I think that that's, it's a good thing. It's like simplifying the whole thing. I support it. I support it. Yeah. But, What's funny about it is because I always thought it was a safety issue. And it's not like there's less houses now than when I was a kid. Definitely not. So, but hearing that it was an efficacy issue as well, trying to reduce efficacy, I see,

but I also think that it felt, uh, unnecessary. Yeah. It was a big thing for me when we used to then go over to hunt Wisconsin when I used to actually get to hunt with a bolt action rifle. It was like, it was very exciting. Yeah. That's, that's why we drove to Kentucky. Right, because you guys were a shotgun state.

Yeah. Ohio's going to come back into my reporting here shortly for the second part. Lovely. So if you guys don't have any further questions about being able to use a rifle across the state of Michigan, I'll move on. No, if you're in southern, here's the, if you're in Southern Michigan, it's game on this fall. What's the reception? It could be way across old lady Burns's field and you can still shoot. I'd like to move forward to the part about Ohio.

Well, I think valid info here too, just it's not particular to. this, but it is in the context of Michigan. Michigan is one of the states where big game hunting is on the decline. Fewer licensed deer hunters or fewer people hunting deer. I would like to know how Mitch Rompala feels about this.

He's not going to tell you. Is he zone two or zone three? He's zone two. You know what I heard? I heard a rumor there today. Now I don't want to just I'll save. I'm not trafficking in rumors, dude. Okay. Okay. Another big change. This one's going to go in effect in 2027. Some folks thought it was going to go in effect this year. It's not the case.

In 20 to 27, Michigan is going to a one buck limit. Just capped, one buck. One buck. How many bucks are you allowed there now? Two. Oh, yeah. It's a 50% decline. They're offering up two different licenses. This is for the lower peninsula. The upper peninsula, nothing changes. I didn't write down the details of that. But whatever the rule. were up there, they're staying the same. Lower Peninsula though, now you can buy, if you are so cheap that you can only afford a single deer license,

you can buy one that's a buck only tag and it's for one antler deer with an antler point restriction of three points on one side. The other license that they're offering for the lower peninsula is a combo, and that's one antler deer of any size and one antlerless deer.

They're hoping that this is definitely 100% rent set. It's like it helps revenue that they will buy the more expensive combo because they want to have that option to not have to shoot an antler point restricted buck. Hmm. Yeah, again, this came about, there was a surge of the local hunting community. And again, people that I talk to, mostly Mark Canyon and Brent Rudolph feel like it's a small subset of the hunting community. But like the quality deer management, more people that are into shooting bucks have been like raising a stink about like, hey, like let's change something so that we can get a better, you know, age class of bucks rolling around in Michigan. And this was proposed.

Other states around like Ohio, Indiana can, it was. Kentucky one too? I can't remember now. But definitely Ohio and Indiana have gone that way and it has helped their their age structure. Well, Pennsylvania is a huge one for antler point restrictions.

Right. So they went antler point restrictions. I don't know. Are they at one buck state too? Yeah. And so say there. They helped a lot. Man, Mark was telling me that there, that guy

that started in with the antler point restrictions, like that guy had to get out of wildlife management. He got run out of. He was a professor. Oh, we were trying to get him on the show, but I don't know what happened to it. He was a professor at Penn State when I was there. Yeah, we were trying

to get on the show. The threats and everything was so bad. Gary, Gary, yeah, Gary. Salina Zito recommended. His relative works for Wild Sheep Founders. But he like turned things around in Pennsylvania. Oh, big time. I think now he's like, he's, he's, they applaud his, his work and

his ideas. Gary. Gary, all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you say? He didn't want to. I think I may have, good for Gary. He may have ended up poaching now. Working in the state of Wisconsin after. Oh, okay. I think.

There you go. I think so, yeah. Help a job. Is that it? No. Oh, no. Well, here's the deal. It's like, why, uh, you ask why, like, why would Michigan DNR really care about that, right?

Like, that's not necessarily, so they have a small group of people that are like, hey, we want, you know, better bucks. Yeah. And like, we all know those, these wildlife agencies have to not only manage the wildlife, but they have to manage the people that enjoy the wildlife. Right? In the name of managing the wildlife, DNR wants Michigan hunters to shoot doze bad.

So again, this is a way they're hoping that, like, the guys that used to just shoot the first buck that they saw are now, and then hold out for like the big buck and never shoot a dough. Now they're hoping that if you're in the field, you only have one buck tag and you like to shoot deer. You like to have a couple of deer in the freezer. This is going to hopefully promote antlerless harvest. I don't buy it.

I don't, yeah, again, they don't. Sure. That's fine. Everybody's clear that if it's anything, it's going to be incremental. The last thing I'll leave you with, and this is interesting because I hadn't really thought about this. And Brent said this, is that if they don't, Michigan's hunters don't start killing those. Hunting as a management tool might become archaic.

And something else, they will find another way to manage this deer population if it can't be done through hunters. Understood. So it's like a real, it's a, I think it's a serious call out to all hunters around that like some, some industry is going to come in and be like, we'll take it from here, boys. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then the antis can use it as like, hey, you guys weren't doing your job that you guys always said you're going to do. You guys are always, you know, talking about being, you know, balance of nature. Yeah, exactly and all that. I'd be, I'd use it as an incentive, just to have the ability to be like,

this is going to be nothing but Broughtwurst. Be like, bang, dough off to the processor. Yeah. Brought worst. This thing's going to be nothing but sandwich meat. Here we go. You know what I'd do if I wanted to increase harvest is I'd have like those, you know, those little sausage making kits, the dry seasoning.

kit that comes stapled to your deer tech. So when you're sitting there and you're blind, you just got your hand in your pocket, you're feeling that brat seasoning. You just got to wonder why they don't, why that earn a buck thing? Deeply unpopular. I know, but

they're actually they're doing a test in a certain part of the southern peninsula where there is going to be an earn a buck for a second buck tag. Wisconsin got into earn a buck and it proved unpopular with with, you know, not everybody, but was unpopular with the masses.

Yeah, the masses. There's a lot of economic drivers, right? Like, most people are making it out for a weekend at most. And could this incentivize people to go out and get a dough one weekend and then try to find a buck another weekend? They're spending more money around the counties. It's just surprising to me, because in all. My camp, where I grew up hunting in Michigan, like, we pounded doughs. And so to know that only 20-

brag about getting a dough-take. Yeah. So the only- You hear Steve got a dough tag? Only 20% of Michigan hunters will kill a dough. It's like, who are these guys? Yeah, it was crooked as day as long. We didn't know about that kind of thing at the time.

You know, everybody put their mom in for a dough-take. Oh, yes. That was a thing in Pennsylvania. Did you hear I got a do-take? Want me, my mom? Yeah. I guided some Michigan. again hunters for black bear in Idaho, spring black bear, gillian years ago.

And there were mule deer doze running across the road. And they were like, yanking on the door handles being like, camp meat, can't meet. And I couldn't, I was, you know, I was like, it's spring. And I'm like, I couldn't quite, well, you know, camp meat. It's like you just shoot a dove to have a camp. Well, man, you talk about that. You go to your camp for. First thing you do is shoot a dough. Like a pre-season year. Right. Just to get things started, the right way.

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