The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 910: Steve Eats Narwhal, Wetlands in Distress, and Wag Bags!

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

The MeatEater Crew discuss: Steve’s News Flash from the Arctic; Open Fields case in Pennsylvania; pen-raised pheasants in Montana; wolf corrections; pooping in bags; wolf corrections; possible changes to wetlands; and more! Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. When the seasons are on, the work doesn't stop. You're still scouting, still adjusting, still putting in early mornings and long days. That's no off-season. First Light fieldware is built for real use in-season and beyond. No shortcuts. Check out First Light's new fieldware collection at firstlight.com.

Welcome to the news show. Today, we're going to make Nate read a correction on his wolf cover. Then we're going to get into a big change for game wardens in Pennsylvania. Randall is going to explore people packing out their own poop. Cal is here to talk about some big trouble with wetlands. And finally, we're going to hit a possible expansion to a controversial pheasant stocking program here in Montana. With that, we're on to the news. Okay, you might have noticed that Steve Renell is not.

sitting in his seat. Thank God. Oh, yeah. We don't know where he is. Actually, Steve is off doing a super cool filming project way up north. So he's going to miss the next couple of shows. But he did send us a video to check in with us and let us know what's going on up there, up there where he's at. Phil, you got that video?

Yeah, take a look. Okay, we have a news flash from none of it. I'm here with Dirt. And our friend Avery is. Cutting up, can you explain what you're doing but tell everybody the, tell everybody the Inuit words. So I'm cutting up Allangwak or Tewalik, which is Narwal. And this was caught a couple days ago in Pondonlit, North Baffin. So now. But look at the skin on that thing. You would think that was like a made like a like a marble countertop. The skin on that thing. And you're cutting it.

Sorry, but I just wanted to comment on the wildness of that skin. So now I'm just cutting off the fat, the blubber. Because if you have too much, you might get a stomach. Oh, really? Yeah. And then I'm cubing it. And I prefer the cut smaller. I find it tastes better, but everyone has their own preference.

You're almost cutting through. Mm-hmm. So I'm just cutting the hard part. People prefer different depths. Yeah. Or do you mind telling everybody, do you mind telling everybody what that is? This one is Kailaluka, Baluka, the skin and the blubber. And that's a frozen chunk of caribou, which you just eat like that.

Yeah. And they're cooking up, see, can you go check off those seal ribs for them? Yeah. These are clams and that's our kitchen. Wow, they got it all there. We're back. Oh, this is the only man in the planet who I have ever met who had a king Ider for a pet. P, no. Pitti.

Yeah. And that refers to it's dried Arctic char but that refers to how it's cut to you. Steve speaks Spanish the same way. Okay, so it doesn't mean that it's cut that way. That's Arctic Char. That's a big Arctic Charle. Yeah. Okay. And that. And Caribou fat. Carribe fat.

And some more over here. And this is a crazy one right here. Get look at that. That's broccoli. See right there. They have a... Do you need help with anything? They walk down.

Our host here, they can walk down and they run a net across that little bay, that little inlet right there and catch char out of the little gill net. We were down there last night and they had six char, which is... That's the ones you have, right, from that, from that net. there um okay you're ready dirt yeah let's go i already tried it you already tried it i haven't tried it what is it narwhal oh there it's not the most adventurous eater either yeah kind of chewy you're not as expected but really good that is good that is really can i try just a pure chunk of that fat how bad could it be

What's that going to do to anybody? Ignoring the warnings of locals to not do it. Yeah, he's going to poop his pants. Yeah, but I mean, what would be something bad would happen? Just be that. Well, if you have a lot of it, you're going to get a stomach deep. Oh, I can picture that. That is good.

That's better. Straight up. Try that, man. Can I get a little sliver? Yeah. That's good. Dirt is going to try just the pure fat, which I think is the good way to go. Narwhal whiskin was good.

If it's better than that, hot dog. Or do you mind while we're making this news segment if we try the bluga, a little piece of blurtis? This is breaking news. Steve's right, that is delicious. That's better. Are they dipping in soy sauce? I mean, that's good.

Well, no, but that just like melts. Melt in your mouth. Chad was saying it's good, like, thought out, but I feel Oh, look at that. Do you like it raw? Oh, look at that. Baluga. You like the same cutting method?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Do people... Like, is it generally accepted that narwhal is better or beluga is better? Or is it just up to you? To the person, um, growing up, I love Baluga more than Narwhal. Okay. But now I prefer Narwhal more than Balug.

Because of what happened? Just, I like. the taste better with narwhal. For me I like narwhal more because in my hometown we have deeper waters and we don't really get belugas so it's like different. When you're used to narwhal it like you become proud of it. It's like oh that's from our home. And so like last a few summers ago they had a bunch of belugas come into our bay which is rare and hunters caught them but they were like of the meat so they sent it all here. because they're used to narwhal.

Yeah, I got it, yeah. It's just what they're used to. Got it. We're getting a whole dang meat eater episode here. Yeah, if you're listening to this, you should just hop on YouTube and watch it. Can you taste a different? While you're driving. That's tough.

Folks are very good. But there is more fat. Am I right that Balooga is softer? Well, this one is softer because it's not an adult blue guy. Oh, so there's very, very, from age. What are you working on there? This is the huluk. So I'm just going to light it to welcome you guys. And so this was our main source of heat and light. Also to dry the men's clothing. You see oil? Yeah. Traditionally it would be with seal oil or beluga.

Okay. You would render it down. And then, yeah. So now we just use whatever oil is available. Got it. Because it's easier and it's less stinky. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, we're, that's the news flash from Nunavut.

And can you guys teach us how to say so long suckers or goodbye? in a nooketuk. There's no real word for goodbye. There's like see you, see you later. Yeah, hit us with that. Like see a grotto, what day of to or khanatakia, yeah, kongatka, see you in the future. See you in the future. Yeah, that's good. Thank you. Okay, this is a second, this is a long goodbye. It's a long goodbye.

I was trying to understand, like, I'm trying to understand how to say, how to name the language. Enuk-in-en-o-titut. Enuk-titut? Yeah. Okay. So to say goodbye and, one more time, to say goodbye in anuk-tit-to- T-to-oh, t-titude, oh, t-tut, anuk-titude. Yeah. Say goodbye. See you later. See you later. So what was the one? Come at Tokyo. Seroctaw. All right, there you go. There's the news from the Great White North from old Steve Ronella.

Cal, Brody. You've been a dad for a couple months now. What's that like? You got some advice for our soon-to-be dad and eight over there? Well, yeah. You know, today is a good day to do it because my morning started at 3.45, my day. I'm well into my day.

It's from 3.45 a.m. And my biggest. So everybody's wealth and knowledge, right? And they're always like, oh, yeah, here's all the things. But don't worry about it. I forgot all the baby stuff. I don't, I can't remember any of them. Phil, can you remember any of the baby stuff?

Oh, no, wiped it from my mind. Yeah. My thing that nobody mentioned and I was not prepared for, but this is all like, well, of course, that's the way it is stuff. But like, I've run into many people. who are like baby crazy right now. And they're like, well, this is how it's going to be. And I'm like, oh, that's funny.

The thing that you need to have, like just be mentally prepared for, Nate, is the fact that you are going to be fully consumed with this little parasite. And it is demanding. And you have very little grace as to when this thing needs what it needs. and you'll be consumed with like satiating those needs there will be zero recognition of you whatsoever so it's not like you're not being thanked

it's like you're just a non you're just a thing that shows up and does the thing and there is no recognition of you at all not for a while not at all by the wife by the baby. There's no recognition of mom from the baby, right? And like we're full breastfeeding. So you would think that there would be like some recognition. And there's just not.

Like the kid doesn't nod and say like, appreciate you. Yeah. That was a good one. Until next time. Who could have guessed? I imagine there's something going on in there that the baby is not capable of communicating at this point. But I see what you're saying.

But there's no like they can't even hardly see, right? Sure. like not really, they're seeing like shapes and some colors and things, but they're not seeing they're not going to give you, ah, dad, you're the best. Thanks, man. And which, right, is like, oh, of course they're not going to do that. But like, being able to be like, oh, you would kind of be nice, right? And all the, all the girls that are all like Twitter pated with having babies, they're like, oh, well, we read that there's this bond that's established. And I'm like, cool, You can't see it, you can't smell it.

But if that book tells you it's there, you better hang on to it. Because this thing is going to, like, it's going to chew you up and spit you out. Yep. And then about nine days ago, it was like almost like a call and response. Like the kid's like, oh, I'm tracking you. And here's a smile that is not related to the kid taking a poop. and you're like, oh, I needed that. And it's like, oh, it is, there is a human in there.

Yes, exactly, exactly. Because I'm fully like, never had anything against kids, right? But like, the whole time, I'm like, I'm just not impressed with the human child, right? I'm like, Antelope can get up in sprint in, you know, 12 hours. Like this thing is so helpless. Helpless. Like the only thing it's got going for it is it is portable and packable. I think that's how we got to where we are today is you can pick up, pick it up and run.

There you go, Nate. What do you think about that? That's good advice. I had not read that yet. Yeah. So that is the thing. You just need to be mentally prepared. Like there's a lot of like wonderful things about it, but just be prepared for the fact that.

For the sheer ingratitude. Yeah. this child. Yep, there is no recognition of you whatsoever. Yep, yeah. Okay. And you're going to be doing all the, you know, you'll do whatever it takes to like soothe that thing.

And, uh, you know, you get way down the no sleep trail and it's, you're like, I'm putting in serious effort here. And this thing is only going to respond negatively the next time it needs something. Right? Yeah. Right. And then you get smiles. And then eventually, um,

you know, I think we'll get some laughs, which will be super cool. And we were just talking this morning that, like, I'm really looking forward to this thing, tasting real food. Yeah, man. I know it's cliche, but time flies. Like, I can't even, like, I can hardly, like, remember the details of the baby thing. But, like, now I got a couple of hunting buddies. Yeah.

And pretty soon those hunting buddies. will be off to college. Sad, man. Goes fast. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm looking forward to like the teaching.

Yeah. Moment. I think it's fantastic to have a puppy at the exact same time, which everybody's like, oh, you guys are stupid. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well,

the puppy is instant gratification. Right. Right. You get that puppy home. You feed it one time and it is like, oh my God, I love you. You're the best thing ever.

You teach the puppy. It's like, This is great. And then there's the baby and you're like. Staring at you with dead, glassy eyes. One day this will pay off. So it's instant gratification next to long term payout. That's like diversifying.

Yes, exactly. There you go. That's great advice. A hot take. I like it. I knew Cal would have a unique take on that situation. All right. It's time to move on to your news.

There we go. I like that sound. Pigeant flying into a bar. Yeah, that's what I was going for. The jail door just clanks. Your news brought to you by these here banished suppressors. I know we talked a little bit about these in the last show, maybe. These things, speaking of kids, like, these things are awesome if you've got some youngsters shooting big game rifles.

The noise, the recoil reduction, it just makes life a lot. easier for kids shooting shooting big game rifles. So another reason to get one. Nate, you've got some explaining to do on your wolf coverage. I do. Phil, if you don't mind pulling up that chart

for our listeners, what we're looking at is the Dunning Kruger effect or Dunning Kruger curve. And on the y-axis, you've got confidence from low to high. And on the right axis, or the X-axis, you've got competence. from knowing nothing to a guru.

And essentially what this curve is showing is that when you first start learning about something, you have extremely high confidence. You think you know what you're talking about, but you actually don't. And then you reach this peak, which labeled here is the peak of Mount Stupid, when you realize you don't actually know anything. And you go down that curve to the Valley of Despair and you realize, I don't know anything about this situation. And I'm going to try to learn.

Now, are we talking about you here? Yes. I am on this curve. Are you, uh, where are you at i would say based on the listener emails we got on my wolf coverage i'm slowly cresting the peak of mount stupid and i'm realizing i don't know anything about this topic i thought you're in the valley of despair yeah i think i've entered the valley of despair over the last couple days yeah um so not even climbing out of it yet just starting to climb all right and it's a

tall mountain carry on and so we got a bunch of emails i think the best one was from dave and i'll read it out Hello there. My name is Dave. My father and I were the first to have wolf depredations in Colorado. I enjoy listening to your podcast and I believe you do a very good job of being as accurate as possible. Regarding your conversation about wolves frequently predating on cattle where a quote credible source claims that the ranchers were baiting. John Smith, not his real name. Let's be clear. He's talking about baiting wolves in. Causing intentional conflict is what I said. To get a depredation claim on on cattle. John Smith, not his real name.

is who I assume your source is, as he's the one who started that rumor, did a site evaluation on the ranch that he accused of baiting prior to those accusations, and said they were taking all necessary steps to avoid conflict. He later changed his opinion when he was unable to reduce conflict as he was hired by the state to do so. I can say from personal experiences that with that individual that he was only interested in getting us to stop talking to the press and not so much about conflict mitigation. I will admit he was handed an impossible task, but he handled the failure poorly. Furthermore, the Copper Creek pack showed a much larger interest in cattle than other packs in the state.

They continue to do so when they were moved to another part of the state. Unless your stance is that the ranchers are only baiting this pack everywhere they go, and not other packs, it's fair to assume some packs have developed a preference to livestock. Thank you for reading this and despite my disagreement with this statement, please keep up the good work over there immediate. I think this is a great note. All I know. You got to explain disagreement with this statement.

What's he disagreeing with? He's disagreeing with the fact that I said that certain wolf packs do not seem to develop a taste for cattle. All I know is that the Copper Creek Pack, which was brought from Oregon, killed cows in Oregon, and they killed cows in Colorado. And that's all I know about that. That's kind of a correction and a kind of an apology, but I don't know. I do, I think the curve, your graph there is important, right? Because there's people who will cling to Mount Stupid and work their butts off to justify their once previously confident position. Instead of going down into despair and digging out through enlightenment.

and then adjusting their position and saying, hey, here's what I know now. Which, and you're beginning the journey towards the plateau of sustainability. Dude, I have no idea what's going on with wolves. I'll keep working on it. No matter what, they eat cows. No matter what we talk about on this podcast,

I always know that there's someone out there who knows way more about it than me, and I probably sound dumb. Unless we're talking about things like, guns. What you personally did last night. Yes. What happened to me in the bathroom last night. That's a good way of putting it around. We try to do our best. We're going to make some mistakes. We'll do our best to correct them. And if we need to, you know, take a dive down into despair and then climb back out, we'll do it. And just so no one gets the wrong idea, there was a momentary scare last night when I thought I might be the latest victim of Taco Bell's lives.

We're going to get to that. Yeah, we'll get to that later. Put spoilers out there. I just didn't want to be too vague about what I did last night. There's a fascinating topic coming out. Thanks for writing in. Appreciate the great corrections. And keep them brief.

They're more likely to get aired if they're brief. Yeah. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Hello. My gosh. Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free IHare Radio app. Get the blood going up.

Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like the Tom Green Farmcast. park the bus. Now with full video. We're building a ramp for Tony Hawk. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen. Cheers. Open the free IHR radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. Good Lord, they're finally here at long last.

After fighting and yelling and fighting some more, Clay Newcomb and First Light have done it. They have built a pair of work bibs together, not just any work bibs. We're talking the bare grease bibs from Clay. Now, I've watched Clay work long enough to know that he wasn't going to put his name on a pair of hunting pants, pretending to be work bibs, and boy, he did not. These are Clay's invention for things like breaking mules, rendering grease, kneeling in the dirt. I'm going to use them all the time, trap and working, fixing stuff. It doesn't matter.

If you want good, durable, comfortable bibs, these are your bibs made from tough stretch duck cotton. they got briar-proof chaps that run from cuff to thigh. They got pockets damn near everywhere. Again, comfortable and durable. Put them on, you don't need to worry about having anything go bad. If it wasn't so hot right now outside, I'd be wearing them right now. But you can bet your ass I got them in my truck. And they are up at the meat eater store right now at the meat eater store.com.

Like this next one, pretty short. So we've got someone who he's got some concerns about hunting in CWD zones, which there's not many places that aren't CWD zones these days. He writes, my family does all of our own butchering and processing. That's great. And over the years, we've invested a lot of time, money, and effort into becoming efficient hunters and processors. Between the cost of a lease, equipment, fuel, processing supplies, and the added risk of CWD, I've started asking myself whether hunting is still the most practical and economical way to fill the freezer. Financially, it almost seems like it would be cheaper to buy quality meat from a local butcher.

So here's my question. How would you approach hunting economically if you lived in an area where a CWD is endemic? Meaning it's like high prevalence rates. If you kill a deer, get it tested, there's a decent chance that's going to come back positive. for CWD. Would you start traveling to hunt in areas with lower CWD prevalence, even if it means spending more

on fuel and time? And at what point does traveling become the more economical option, both financially and in terms of confidence that the meat you're bringing home will actually fill the freezer? That comes from Kyle. God, if you're hunting economically, you're doing

something way different than I've ever done. Yonis, or someone actually did a, this came up, this economically, like, sustainably hunting thing came up in a recent episode. I think it might have been Janus was covering something, but basically like, the only way you're going to like

save money or break even is by hunting in your backyard. Right? Like, hardly any driving, processing your own meat like this guy's doing. So that's kind of like... Not investing in new gear. Yeah, it's kind of like the whole like saving money thing as much as much as it gets

talked about. It's not really a thing. It's just like you're choosing to eat wild game over domestic meat is basically what it comes down to. Well, I think the other thing too, right, is like, this is my entertainment dollar. Like we had an offline conversation about things the lady wants to do for her entertainment. And I'm like, well, that's not where my entertainment dollar goes. Right. It also goes into hunting. Yeah. As does my mental health dollar, my physical fitness dollar. Some people spend money on going to the beach or Disney World or whatever.

We spend a little money on going on. Like I get the debate over like should I even bother because of CWD. There are some areas where like, you know, in Doug Dern zone of Wisconsin, like you're rolling a dice if you shoot a deer, right? And it can start to feel frustrating when you get that test result back and it's positive. and you can't eat the thing. You got to make a choice, like if it's worth it to your or not.

I would hate to see people deciding just to hang it up because of chronic wasting disease. We've got it here in the valley. It's maybe not as high prevalence as some areas, but it's concerning. I shoot deer here. It's actually a very cheap economical way for me to kill a couple of those close to home.

I get them. tested. I've been lucky and haven't had any positive results and I'm going to keep doing it. Like, I don't know if you've got anything more for this guy. Like, I just think it's like a reality for hunters that all hunters got like kind of got to confront how they're going to approach it these days. Yeah, and I think there's not really enough if we're actually running the numbers and trying to figure out if it makes sense financially to travel more to areas with lower prevalence. Does that mean driving an hour or does that mean

driving five hours? Like there's not really anything to go on there. But I guess like and also the comparative rates of infection in those two places. Yeah. Do you have a one in three chance if you drive an hour versus a one and 20 versus one and 20? You know, but I don't know. I think like your larger point that you'd hate to see people hang it up because they're frustrated by not being able to eat what they kill. That's, that is just the reality of where we are right now. Yeah, and it might, people might not like it, but you are kind of still helping out by shooting deer that are CWD positive.

And buying tags and licenses. Yeah. Yeah. And Cal, you made a good point that maybe it wouldn't be here or it wouldn't be quite as bad if, if people were actually out there. harvesting dose. It's not going to get any better if people who live in high CWD areas all decide to hunt outside of those areas. You're just going to get a higher and higher prevalence rate. So I don't know if we answered this guy's questions or not. Keep hunting. Keep hunting.

And yeah, I mean, it'd be great if Doug published all of his data because I think they're at like an 80% prevalence rate. So it's like. Yeah. I mean, I mean, You are far more likely to kill a deer with CWD than not. Yep. Yep. But they are still getting non-positive deer out there. And the population in Richland County over there is. I think that's it. Yeah.

Like does not seem to be going down. Right. Right. So there you go, Kyle. Keep shooting those deer. Thanks for right. Keep eating those deer. All right.

We're ready for the news. That's it. That's all you got, Phil? What happened at the end? It got eaten by some sort of animal, presumably a cat of some kind. Yeah. And the dude doing Morris Code, we don't know what happened to him. One of life's mysteries. He probably died 40 years ago, to be fair. All right, we're going to talk about this big Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision that rejects the Opens Field Doctrine for game wardens.

Okay, before I get into that, I'm going to explain open fields in the Fourth Amendment real quick for people who aren't familiar. We've talked about open fields before, but I'll give you the quick rundown. It's open fields doctrine is a legal principle established by the U.S. Supreme Court that allows law enforcement officers to enter and search privately owned open land without a search warrant. applies to fields, forest, pastures, and undeveloped land, even if the property is posted with a no trespassing sign. It does not apply to a home's curtilage, meaning the immediate area surrounding a residence, like outbuildings, things like that. They remain protected by the Fourth Amendment. The Fourth Amendment protects people from unfair and unreasonable searches and seizures by the government.

It also states that with certain exceptions, police need a warrant to search or search your property or take things. So, Pennsylvania got rid of it. Recently, there's a lawsuit, and before we get into that,

game warrants and states that operate under the open fields doctrine, they typically have more leeway. They operate with more leeway than other law enforcement personnel might. That's like open to interpretation, but I think that's a generally like correct statement. If you think I'm wrong, you can write in about it or these guys will correct me if I'm wrong. Basically what it means is like let's say a game warden's driving down a country road, 30 minutes before shooting light, here's some gunshots.

before or after legal shooting light, here's some gunshots. Sounds like a rat-a-tat-tat kind of shotgun shooting thing. Waterfowl season's open. He knows there's a pond next to a cornfield on this piece of property he's driving by. He could then walk in there and see what's going on. Correct? Like, is that fair to say?

Just from the sound, I thought it was, I thought they had to see stuff. going on. Yeah, that's a, that's a tough one. Anyway, maybe I've already screwed this up. But, okay, let's say, well, so the, the thing that I know to absolutely be true right is if your state operates with the open fields doctrine, it's still up to your game agency or, and law enforcement agency to say how that's going to be interpreted in your state.

Yeah. And so there are states that have a more liberal interpretation of how they're going to operate. And then, you know, the crazy thing, like Idaho just lost open fields. And they had a very narrow. Yeah. It's like, unless it is like egregious in your face, that law enforcement officer is not going to walk across private property without permission. Yeah, we'll talk a little more about that. But not to, not to further confuse things, but I've often heard when examples are given about

open fields. I've often heard the sound of a gunshot as being no, no, no, like being the instigating factor. That's what I've heard. Yeah, so that's, I would agree with you that that's another example might be like, game warrants driving down the road sees a deer hanging in a garage, deer season's not open. Yes. Something like that. Yep. Or a bull elk in the case of Montana. Sure. Yep. Yeah, he doesn't need to go to a judge and get a search warrant to go investigate that. Um, now before we get into this Pennsylvania thing, I want to make something really clear. In covering this story where, like, in no way trying to portray game wardens or conservation officers as the enemy because they're not, they're doing a vitally important job protecting people in wildlife.

And they're also performing difficult, sometimes dangerous law enforcement duties, like catching poachers that are stealing wildlife from you and me. and I'm willing to go way out on limb to say that when it comes to like private property rights, most game wardens in most places, like by necessity, have worked really hard to cultivate a good working relationship with the private landowners in the area they patrol. Like it's just like they're not operating in a way where they're going to have these antagonistic relationships with, landowners are just going to make their job impossible. So I just want to, like, get that out there first before we get into the particulars of this case. We'll get into the actual case and then get into the, like, the pros and cons of it after I talk about what happened in Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision just this month, Game Wardens was must generally obtain a warrant before entering posted private. posted private property. A Supreme Court decision rejected the open fields doctrine. The federal open fields doctrine still exists under the U.S. Constitution, but in Pennsylvania, it was a 70 Supreme Court decision. Punksitani Hunting Club Incorporated versus Pennsylvania Game Commission. So it significantly expands private property protections in the state of Pennsylvania. The court ruled officers, again, must generally upchain a search warrant before entering clearly posted, fenced, gated, or otherwise marked private property to investigate wildlife violations.

The decision overturns Pennsylvania Supreme Court's 2007 ruling Commonwealth v. Russo, which had allowed game wardens to enter open fields on private land without a warrant. Now, the case background is there's a couple of hunting clubs in Pennsylvania, the Punctsatani hunting club and the Pitch Pine Hunting Club that challenged the game commission's authority to enter posted lands. There's some history here. The clubs allege that Pennsylvania game wardens entered their posted property dozens of times over several years without permission or a search warrant. according to court filings, they hid in camouflage on club property, conducted surveillance with binoculars, installed trail cameras on the club's land without the owner's knowledge or consent. Now, this is the more recent happenings.

This all goes back to a 2013 incident after a game warden confronted a member of the Pitch Pine Hunting Club over allegedly feeding bears. The member later learned that the officer had been secretly observing activity on the club's property for several days. No citation was issued, but the club members objected to the activity that was going on. Since 2013, game commission officers entered the club's posted private property 15 to 22 times. I'm not sure about why there's a number that number is not exact. I'm sure if you got into the details of the court case, you'd understand why it's not exact,

but enough times that they viewed it as a major problem. Again, without consent, a warrant or probable cause. During some of those entries, Game warden Mark Gritzer issued citations to individual hunters or club members for alleged violations of the game code. this Supreme Court opinion doesn't specify how many citations were issued or whether people were convicted or anything like that. The club's lawsuit was not an appeal of those violations or citations. It's trying to get their goal was to get a declaration that the game commission can't just like come onto their property whenever they want.

So obviously they won the argument. Pennsylvania Supreme Court ultimately agreed that the state constitution provides greater privacy protections than the federal open fields doctrine and requires warrants. So that's where we're at right now. What wardens can still do, they can still enter unposted or unmarked private land without a warrant in some circumstances. Observe violations occurring in plain view from lawful locations. rely on recognized exceptions to the warrant requirement such as consent or exigent circumstances.

So that explains, like, how they can still get on private property. Yeah, there's like an emergency situation. So, like, they're compelled to go help in a medical situation that they observe or, you know, an active crime that is observable from a county road. Yep. Yep. So largest expansion of private property rights in Pennsylvania wildlife law in decades, it's going to require some adjustment for how game wardens and conservation officers do their work, investigating suspected hunting and wildlife violations.

And it could influence similar legal challenges in other states. supporters of the decision are generally very much in favor of Fourth Amendment constitutional private property and privacy rights that's basically what it comes down to

getting rid of opens fields treats conservation officers more like other law enforcement officers when conducting searches. So it's like it's a fourth amendment rights argument, the people that are supporting the decision. Critics say the ruling can make it a lot more difficult for game wardens to do their job. Requiring warrants slows things down, especially in remote areas where a game warden knows there's a violation going on. He's trying to investigate

it, but he can't. So he's got to drive all the way back into town and track down the district attorney, a judge, get a warrant, go back. And by the time he's gone to, back, you know, any evidence of a crime or, or the actual crime is just like not happening by the time they get back. So that's, that's what critics argue, you know, for the open fields doctrine. I, I did some research on other states. I kind of like, I didn't, I guess I thought this was almost like a first time thing with Pennsylvania, but there are at least nine to 10 other states that have rejected the open field doctrine, Mississippi, Montana, New York, Oregon, Idaho, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington, Pennsylvania. South Dakota, they recognize and operate under open fields with very strict limits on what the conservation officers can actually do. And Cal, you kind of alluded to that. And that's the way it is in Idaho too now. Yeah. I mean, it was prior to this. Yeah. And that's like, what? was interesting about, I mean, the other interesting thing, the new court decisions are all

being litigated pro bono by Institute for Justice. I would really, I don't, this is something that I don't understand is what's their stake in this? Yeah, actually, I spoke with that, that litigator. Okay. He reached out after he saw Steve's video, and he is purely a Fourth Amendment guy. Right. He, this for him, it's got nothing to do with hunting. It just happens to be the game wardens are at the crosshairs of this thing. And he's like, if there was a, if there was a DEA agent who is using open fields doctrine

to do something with a drug bust, I would litigate that because I think the Fourth Amendment's so important. And so he doesn't have a bone to pick with hunters or game wardens. These are just the situations that are arising. Yeah. So he was the one who litigated rainwater's in Tennessee. Yeah. Yeah.

And there are, yeah, there's all sorts. instances, right? It's kind of like when we talk about, uh, individual animals. I named this mountain lion. So it's really important. And now it's emblematic of the entire population. Yeah. Uh, there's certain instances where I think most people would all agree like, oh my God, that is a gross overstep of authority and abuse of power. But, uh, the other thing that we have to balance this is it is all public wildlife. And just like a super quick story, Idaho, that one was brutal for me because it is such, it is the most serious migratory state I have ever hunted.

Like you see, you're like, oh my God, this is what a migration looks like. Yeah. And, you know, a state known for big, awesome mule deer, one time I got permission to hunt on this place. The guy's like, oh, you like mule deer? Look in the shop. and there's this row of dusty,

almost forgotten, truly giant muley wrecks. Like things today that would just blow people's mind. And it was, you know, generations. And they were like, nobody knows about them. It is safe to say nobody knows about them. There's a whole Robbie Dennings book on like Big Bucks Idaho. These things aren't in there, right?

But it's because this ranch... But it got your blood boiling, I bet. This ranch is in a, and I was hunting birds, right? This ranch is in, like when it was the heavy snows forever. This is where all the big bucks end up. And it is feasible with the state of mule deer and mule deer genetics right now, that if you had bad actors, they could literally eliminate the ability.

the ability for those types of genes to be passed on. Or at least make some serious bucks killing bucks. Like allowing, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean that, that too. But if it's like, you know, and I was hunting turkeys on a place this year, just for instance, it was awesome. It's huge. And was driving out.

And, you know, it's like calving season during turkey season. all the ranch activities on one place, nobody's on the whole rest of the ranch. And I was like, God, you could just live out here and nobody you know about it. And sure enough, I get stopped on the way out. Like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, I was hunting turkeys.

They're like, oh, okay, great. Didn't know. I was like, yeah. Like, you get lost back there. Right. So there are many instances where this isn't just like a crazy theory. Right. And part of law enforcement on

landscape is wildlife management, which is a public resource. So if it is not your buddy at Western Justice or Institute for Justice, right, this isn't a solve for anything in my mind. This is like ripping open this can of worms. And we need the ability to regulate the take and management of public wildlife. It is a public resource in the United States. Yeah. So if this isn't the answer.

what is it? Yeah. I mean, that that's the question is enforcement becomes kind of impossible in certain situations. And like part of the, like, this kind of gets away from what we're talking about. But part of the effectiveness of game wardens is knowing they could just show up at any time. Right. Knowing that maybe they. won't show up, but knowing that they could be glassing you from a county road and you're two

miles up the hillside or whatever, like knowing that they're out there doing their job, like makes them effective even when they're not around. It's part of the deterrent puzzle. Yes. Or pie or whatever. If you're, you know, completely hidden from view on private property, look, most hunters aren't bad actors, but there are bad actors out there who would take advantage of it. of this situation, I feel like, unfortunately.

I think one other piece he raised that was interesting is the difference between state and federal enforcement. Sure. Like, because of the supremacy clause, the Constitution, the Fourth Amendment, when federal officers are enforcing federal statutes, they can still use open fields throughout the U.S. But state officers cannot, unless they're cross-deputized, and that is another thing that's going to get real muddy here now. Yeah.

Yeah. And there are situations where hunters would have to deal with with federal officers for sure on wildlife refugees and things like that. But privately, I'm, you know, I'm not sure how that would play out. So there you go. I think if I had a crystal ball like Steve would, I would say probably more states are going to go this direction if I had to make a prediction. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Hello.

My gosh. Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish, right inside the free IHR Radio app. Gets the blood going up. Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like the Tom Green Farmcast and park the bus. Now with full video. We're building a ramp for Tony Hawk.

It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing. Right on your screen. Cheers. Open the free IHR radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. Good Lord, they're finally here. At long last, after fighting and yelling and fighting some more,

Clay Newcomb and First Light have done it. They have built a pair of work bibs together. Not just any work bibs. We're talking the bare grease bibs from Clay. Now, I've watched Clay work long enough to know that he wasn't going to put his name on a pair of hunting pants, pretending to be work bibs, and boy, he did not. These are Clay's invention for things like breaking mules, rendering grease, kneeling in the dirt. I'm going to use them all the time,

trapping, working, fixing stuff. It doesn't matter. If you want good, durable, comfortable bibs, these are your bibs made from tough stretch duck cotton. They got briar-proof chaps that run from cuff to thigh. They got pockets damn near everywhere. Again, comfortable and durable. Put them on.

You don't need to worry about having anything go bad. If it wasn't so hot right now outside, I'd be wearing them right now. But you can bet your ass I got them in my truck. and they are up at the meat eater store right now at the meat eater store.com. So we're done with that crap. Let's move on to Randall's crap. Thanks, Brody.

Man, I came across this story and I just couldn't look away. There was a coverage of a dissertation that was just completed at Penn State. by a doctoral researcher named Jack Edelson or Edelson. And they looked at public, this dissertation was touted as perhaps the most in-depth coverage of public study of public land pooping habits. And I didn't need to know anymore. At that point, I knew it needed to be covered. You were hooked.

Yeah. So what this study encompassed was the researcher went to three different. sites. Most of the coverage in the press has focused on what they did at Colorado at Mount Albert, which is one of the 14ers. I believe it's the tallest. Super busy, close to Denver, gets a lot of traffic. Yeah, it gets 15,000 to 20,000 hikers a year. And it's an eight-hour round trip with no bathroom once you leave the trailhead. So obviously, how do people survive? Well, that's, I mean, people survive, but they also Duke along the way. in fact what 11% of the people that were contacted during this study which involved

reaching out to people at the trailhead asking them about their hike and i'll get to this in a minute encouraging them to adopt new habits when it comes to pooping in the wild 11% of the people they contacted reported defecating during their hike that's a lot of that's a lot of feasts yeah um And so what the focus of this was there was trying to encourage people or understand how receptive people would be to packing out their own waste. We're all familiar with the doggie do-do bag. In humans, you don't necessarily use that. You use what's called a wag bag. And here's where I learned something very new to myself.

That's a little overlap with new dad advice too. we do use the dog poop bags for the kid poop diapers do you know what a wag bag would it's an acronym it's way big do you know what it stands for i've i used them back in a past life and i don't know what they stand for i'd never i always thought it was like a slang term it's a waste aggregation and gelling bag oh oh yeah a little powder in there yeah it's a little puncture resistant bag um that usually has a jelling powder with enzymes resistant asterisks in it it it Yeah, theoretically puncture resistant. The purpose of the jelling powder is to neutralize odor.

And then you can use this to just throw it in the trash. So long story short, there's a lot of people duking on Mount Albert and this researcher set up at the trailhead. And they gave out wag bags to people. And they tracked who used it. They asked people, they asked hikers, what, would get what would get them to use wag bags because and this was especially i think prominent during covid is the amount of there's certain parts of our public lands that are just so heavily trafficked that it's inescapable that there's going to be you know it's like you go to some place

around bozeman and it's covered in dog shit like there's places like mount albert where where it's it's also inescapable yeah i mean you come across places where there's just toilet paper scattered all over the ground. Yeah. I mean. So, so what they found was that people were actually very receptive to using wag bags. The big thing was cost and how hard it was to get your hands on a wag bag. So 80% of hikers said they would try a free wag bag.

They, they said it was easy. They said, and so essentially they provided people with wag bag. and they had a receptacle at the trailhead. And people adopted this, I think, surprisingly well. So they just had like a kiosk where you could just grab one before you start a icon? Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that's interesting about this is that putting in a vault toilet at a trailhead is huge, like, it's a huge expense. And there's obviously maintenance and upkeep required with that.

But if you can provide people with wag bags at a trailhead and a receptacle to dispose, of them, there's probably going to be a lot less toilet paper scattered around that trailhead if it's a toiletless trailhead. And there's going to be a lot less toilet paper and crap along the trail. So, you know, it's not, it's this, this isn't a, I would say that's a trend, though, right? Like, most, if you give people a reasonable option, there's going to be a high adaptation, right? Because most people just don't know. They haven't taken the time to figure it out. Right. Yeah. Or it's just out of the realm of things

that they think about, right? Yeah. I can see, like, I can see it being promising and I can see it working. Like, back when I was guiding, we used to use a couple of really busy boat ramps on the Colorado River. And they're on BLM, like there's campgrounds and like it was developed sites. And the BLM, and the BLM took the trash cans away. As soon as they did that,

there was never any trash laying around at those sites. So I could see like a similar thing if you'd get rid of the vault toilets and like give the, maybe give the wag bags away that it would work better. As far as like

large scale use without having access to that free kios, I'm not, I don't know. Yeah. Well, I mean, the dog poop equivalent. right? Like, why isn't the adaptation rate higher? Yeah. Right? Like, I was at a local boat launch, uh, throwing for the dog the other day.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, she took off with the, with the bumper into the woods. Mm-hmm. And then came back without it and did the, like, retrieve it. Yeah. And I'm like, where the hell's the thing? This is the puppy, you know? And, uh, and I was like, oh, my God. The poop per per square foot. Yeah. Here is. Oh, yeah. horrifying.

Yeah, and I guess, you know, this is one of those things where the fact that there's a dissertation, I feel like there's often when something like this makes the news, there's people laughing, like, oh, you can get a doctorate for studying poop, but you need this data and this research to get agencies or nonprofits or whatever to spend money to try this out. Because what the data shows is that the assumption that high, hikers won't do this. That assumption is wrong. And making an incremental change in the way that people impact public lands is going to

add up in the long run. Yeah, for sure. And I think there's, like, I think there's also like just a lack of awareness, especially on the part of, you know, I don't want to put hikers in the crossair, but like kind of day hikers that don't spend a lot, a lot of, you know, as much time outside as us. let's say. It's like a lack of awareness that that's even an option, you know, maybe a lack of awareness that you should,

if you do, if wag bags aren't an option that you should get 100 yards or more off the trail and bury it. Just, you know, I think it's kind of like, oh, I got to go.

So I'm going to go, you know. Or just, just even just pack out like bury it and pack out the paper. Yeah. That's one thing I've been doing a lot more. Yeah. Because I always have like my day snacks.

If you can't burn it. Yeah. In a big gallon baggie. dump all my snacks and my pack stuff all that paper in there and then forget about it and leave your pack in the bed of your truck for four days and then open it up the next time you need to go out and you realize that there's multiple day old feast smear on all that on all that cottonel so back to you brodie back to me actually actually we're we're moving on to cal and wetlands aren't we all right um this is good timing because i

I'm down to just a handful of fatty ducks in the freezer, and we had two whiggin and two teal last night, and my God, just so good. So good. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has opened a 14-day public comment period on a request for information. That's RFI, government speak, about drain tile setbacks.

Drain tile is a chunk of PVC, with holes in it. You put it subsurface and it expedites the drainage of water. And you can do this on large landscapes and drain whole wetlands if you wanted to. If you're, let's say, a developer and you want to build some stuff, but there's a, there's a pesky wetlands in the way. This is how you might. this would be a tool that you could use if you are a farmer that doesn't like to make turns around things and loves those straight lines, which is the efficiency of farming argument.

This would be a tool that you could have in your quiver. And we have some visuals here, Phil. Would you mind pulling up the top of graphic map? So it doesn't look like much on the map. here. So there's your wetland, obviously, in the middle. This is a very emblematic of the prairie pot hole region. This is the snapshot of South Dakota. And this is like retreating glacier country. So there's a bunch of little holes out there. A lot of those holes sometimes got deeper because the bison would use them to wallow. And those fill up with rain intermittently. And they boom with life. Because

little grass grasses and stuff. And this is like the breeding duck factory of North America. It is the breeding duck factory. And then it is how these fledgling ducks get all their little invertebrates to become big ducks that I shoot and snort retrieves. It's a circle of life thing, right? But it's the intermittent nature of these things. The thing that means that they're dry sometimes, they're wet sometimes. often multiple times throughout the year that give people the idea that they don't matter,

but that, in fact, is how disease issues are mitigated naturally, bacteria, and you get these little bumper crops of zooplankton and phytoplankton that create the invertebrates, and then the birds. And way more, like, important way beyond just waterfowl. Yes, pollinators, all sorts of migratory birds that we don't consider. are huntable and they're magnets for big game. Back when I was doing a lot of spot and stock mule deer hunting, these little intermittent wetlands,

and most of these are under half an acre that we're talking about today, are magnets for big bucks laying it out because they can see forever around them. And then Phil, let's slip over to the satellite image here, please. then you can see, oh my gosh, the real worldview is there's a lot more potential habitat out there than what's on the map. So there's different types of intermittent wetlands and what we're coming down to and what they want and this request for information is to weigh in on if there needs to be any, changes. And the change would be converting U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wetland conservation easements to the language of possibly NRCS wetland conservation easements. And the reason that these two different definitions exist is not because of, oh my God, government ineptitude.

It's because you want to give people options out there. And the NRCS version, you can put drain tile a lot closer. And if you flip back over to our topo map, you can see it's obviously a lot easier to affect some of these smaller wetlands than the bigger wetlands.

So the closer you get with that drain tile, the faster that water moves out and that's no longer an intermittent wetland. Does WOTUS or the Clean Water Act come into play at all in this stuff or no? Well,

it's a, It's a big soup here because WOTUS and the Clean Water Act of Bolsene revisions here that help grease the wheels with some of this. The big thing for people to understand is even with the broader protections of the fringe in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wetland conservation easement, your farmer or your rancher out there has the ability to, plant grass in there, they can hay it, they can graze cattle. Depending on what agreement you have, you can also do row crops in there if you want to, but you can't burn it or plow it under. And, you know, so there's this tapestry of things that you can do and you're paid up front in a willing buyer, willing seller agreement.

and everybody in this room has paid into it. Even old Phil over there. So, hell yeah, Phil. Your duck stamp dollars go to conservation easements, wetland conservation easements, as do Pittman Robertson dollars. And if you've ever bought a state waterfowl stamp,

voluntarily, that's where this cash goes a lot of times too. So by converting, this to a lesser, I would say lesser requirement, we stand to lose hundreds of thousands of acres of intermittent wetlands that we've already paid for.

And these are supposed to be perpetual. And we've lost somewhere in the neighborhood of about 80% of our wetlands throughout the prairie pod hole region already. Montana, has lost over 30% Minnesota, 50%, Wisconsin, 50%. And then in the Dakotas, it's somewhere in there between 30 and 50% of preexisting wetlands.

So this is a big deal. And if you like hunting ducks and you like biodiversity out there on the prairie, Which, by the way, is one of the biggest factors in having kids come back and work on the farm is if there's actual pretty things to look at and it's not just a flat landscape, is biodiversity. Then you got a couple of days left here to write in. We have an action alert out at the backcountry hunters.org website. Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl. we'll all give you the tools to just kind of click. We'll give you the language.

You can make up your own mind on whether or not this is a good thing or bad thing. And then you can really, really easily weigh in to our buddy old Brian Nesbik there at U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Speaking of Brian Nesbitt, what, like, did the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service just kind of come up on this? On their own? Like, where did the impetus for this come from? Who did it come from? Well, that is a great question, Brody. Because many people have asked, hey, Cal, I've read this and read this, and I can't see the problem that they're trying to fix.

Because it seems like there's a lot of options out there, including whether or not you would enter into one of these agreements at all is a choice that you can make. And there's a drain tile company. out there that are pushing this pretty heavy. There's been some statements and some media out there as to why this is a good thing, and it's coming from that industry. Is there any congressmen, senators, et cetera, attached to this at all? Yeah, John Thune in North Dakota, who is also the I want to say Speaker of the House, that's not right.

He is the Senate. Yeah, majority. Senate Majority leader, thank you. There you go. Yeah. So landowners who sold these months agreed not to drain, burn, level, or fill wetlands, but are otherwise able to work farm, hay, and graze any that dry up or drain naturally. In addition, some good neighbor policies were adapted, I think back in 2020.

to address this idea that you might be unfairly prosecuted if you adhere to the guidelines and you install drain tile outside of the fringe under either your NRCS or U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service contract and you do it to the letter of the law. It's called Safe Harbor that you are protected if there's, for whatever reason, that thing. drains anyway, just basically giving the nod to the farmer saying, like,

you're not a geomorphologist, a hydrologist, you're a farmer. And mistakes can be made. So it's a big one and a big question that we're asking around backcountry hunters and anglers a lot these days is, oh my God, what is the impact and what happens to the back country if the front country goes away? Yep. And this is a good way to make the front country go away. So your on-X has all these intermittent wetlands out there.

Look at the top of a layer. And then just do some driving around. And you can do it very easily in the next seven days. Do some driving around and go, okay, I'm going to go see this thing on the map. And it is wild how much of the time you pull up and you're like, oh, there is nothing there. So we've lost it. You're there at the wrong time of the year

or it's in production or it just does not exist anymore. I might just, I might have missed this or just don't understand because I don't know anything about farming and ranching. But what's the advantage of moving those drain tiles closer? Like that just makes more like arable land. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's something that you don't have to drive slightly. around. Again, most of these things, everybody thinks to like these big wetland complexes, which are very important to oftentimes for different reasons and different species of of hunter, huntable waterfowl, but it's these little tiny pockets and puddles. And one of the coolest things like in Montana,

because we have, you know, a lot of really shallow wetlands. And when those rains come through, it is so cool in the spring to see lots and lots of pin tail lots of blue wing and green wing tail I was just going to say when I was trained for the marathon in May I was doing a lot of running north of town out in that farm country here

and all those little puddles and seeps and stuff like full of nesting teal like cinnamon teal which you don't see it was cinnamon teal yes exactly yeah it was super cool and just these tiny little spots like you're talking And you get to see behavior that you don't see during hunting season, which is really, really neat. So, yeah, just quick recap. Montana has lost between 27 and 33% of its wetlands, South Dakota 35, North Dakota 50, Minnesota 50, Iowa, between 90 and 97%. Brutal.

Yep. Yep. Yep. And, you know, this is one of the things that is, like, keystone into the recovery of waterfowl and the ability for, hunters to get back out in the field. Yeah. If you want to go back to the economics argument of hunting, you know, it's like one of the reason that we got into this pit is developing, uh, nesting and, uh, resting habitat along the migration corridors, not understanding that everything's connected.

Yep. Uh, pre. Uh, anti-market hunting days. there would be state imposed waterfowl restrictions of 100 birds a day, 50 birds a day. And, you know, eventually we started connecting the dots. And we came up with programs like this and this WPA program didn't come in until 1957. Right. And so we're not that far removed from getting our act together.

And then something like this comes down the pipe. And you're like, well, wait a minute. We just, we just saw the good things start to happen. Yeah, not that far removed from both sides being into like fixing things and doing the right things. For a while, it was cool for both sides to do it. Yeah, yeah. It's not necessarily that way now. You've heard the chaos.

Now you can see it. Hello. My gosh. Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free IHIR radio app. Get the blood going up. Catch every laugh and eye roll on show. like the Tom Green Farmcast and park the bus. Now with full video

for a building a ramp for Tony Hawk. It's the same hosts and the same chemistry with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen. Cheers. Open the free IHare Radio app. Search video podcasts and tap watch. Good Lord, they're finally here. At long last, after fighting

and yelling and fighting some more, Clay Newcomb and First Light have done it. They have built a pair of work, together. Not just any work bibs. We're talking the bare grease bibs from clay. Now I've watched clay work long enough to know that he wasn't going to put his name on a pair of hunting pants, pretending to be work bibs, and boy he did not. These are clay's invention for things like breaking mules, rendering grease, kneeling in the dirt. I'm going to use them all the time, trapping, working, fixing stuff. It doesn't matter. If you want good, durable, comfortable bibs,

These are your bibs made from tough stretch duck cotton. They got briar-proof chaps that run from cuff to thigh. They got pockets damn near everywhere. Again, comfortable and durable. Put them on. You don't need to worry about having anything go bad. If it wasn't so hot right now outside, I'd be wearing them right now. But you can bet your ass I got them in my truck.

And they are up at the meat eater store right now at the meat eater store.com. You know, Nate, you know what else? You can shoot around wetlands? Fescents. Big pheasant. Nice, trans-ish. That was good. So, Montana pheasants, before we get into that, quick story.

I like to tell people I'm an adult onset hunter. That's not totally true. My only hunting experience before the age of 22 was at Miller Ranch, Game and Preserve, right over the border in Spokane, Washington. which is a pheasant stocking operation. I was 11-ish. I hadn't hunted before. I asked my grandpa who had if he'd take me hunting,

and that's what we chose to do. And as an 11-year-old, without any hunting background, I really didn't understand what was going on. I didn't understand stocking, wild birds, pen-raised. But even so, it felt a little off to me. Like, I saw the guy drive out with birds in his ATV. Sure. He told us when we were getting close to birds.

We did get to see some cool dog work, and we did end up shooting some of those birds, but it just felt weird as an 11-year-old. But I was with my grandpa, and I didn't really know what was going on, so didn't say anything. But I hate to admit it, we didn't even end up eating those birds. I don't know what happened to them. I think they got eaten by some freezer somewhere. And after that whole experience, it took me 11 more years to try hunting again. So it's fair to say, this didn't exactly light my fire, which is why an article by Jordan Hansen at the Daily Montana, caught my eye as Montana

FWP seeks permission to increase pheasant stocking by over 400% all in the name of young hunter recruitment. So brief history on pheasant stocking in Montana. In 1930, the Warm Springs Fescent Farm opens, and that's over near Deer Lodge

here in southeast or sorry, southwest Montana. And the intent was specifically to bolster pheasant populations. I don't know what was going on at the time. The information is not very clear. But That's back when they thought stocking would. Gotcha.

And, you know, they quickly learned that it doesn't help wild populations. There has to be an overlap of management, right? There's got to be predator management. There's got to be habitat management and a stocking program in order for those birds to have enough time to adapt. And even then, the mortality rate is like staggeringly high. Oh, we'll get into it. Yes, please. And so at its peak, that operation, again, which was the intent was population stocking, was 15,000 birds annually.

So that runs for 52 years. And although we might have learned the lesson quickly, it took them 52 years to turn it off. That pheasant farm closes, which it released about a total of 450,000 birds over the 50-year life, which again is about $52,000 or $15,000 annually. And it was cited to be too expensive, very inefficient. and that FWP themselves found that habitat improvement was a far better use of funds for some stuff we're going to go into. 1987, they codify the habitat improvement in the Upland Bird Game Enhancement Program, which we'll call Uggbep, which is $1.5 million specifically for habitat for upland birds. And that's through cost share projects where you have a rancher plant a shelter belt or habitat leases and a few other a few other. habitat improvement options.

If you guys know anything more about those habitat improvements, that'd be great, but that's all I found. It's like quoted by FWP is. Yeah. And then, I mean, there's some federal. That's where your hip comes in. Which is now under NRCS Habitat Improvement Projects. So fast forward to 2021. And we're going to take a quick detour to the commercial, or I shouldn't say a commercial, the prison system.

I guess we could lump in CRP 2, which is more of a resting thing, but does provide a lot of habitat. Go ahead. Sorry. But fast forward in 2021, and we'll take a detour to the prisons. And that year, a 30-year commercial contract with dairy gold ends. Basically, Costco stopped buying prison milk, if you want to call it that. But the Deer Lodge Penitentiary had a large dairy herd that they used for that, inmate ran and they they created a bunch of milk and then dairy gold bought that and then sold it to Costco.

But the cancellation of that resulted in a one million budget deficit for the prison system. Why is that important, you ask? Well, that same year, right after that cancellation, the Montana legislature passes House Bill 637, which authorizes, funny enough, $1 million annually for farm-raised pheasants with the stated goal of young hunter recruitment. those farm-raised pheasants would be raised by the same inmates that were just milking cows for dairy gold. The specifics of that legislation is that half the license dollars, or half of that $1 million would be licensed dollars and half would be matching Pittman-Robertson funds, which was made eligible by the 2019 R3 expansion to Pittman-Rabbertson. those pheasants that are raised would be planted primarily before the youth opener and the only they were only allowed to release on state land no federal or private

do you guys have any experience do that youth season in the stocked pheasants not with the youth season but i'd feel like i've definitely run into some of those stock birds at some like fishing access yeah that's what i've heard what's that like phil they run under your tires Phil had an amazing shot on a stocked bird. He really did. He did. Phil, take us back. Oh, I think I told you when I was at your house the other day, Randall, that, like, I haven't gone hunting a lot, but most of it's been with Cal and my experiences have been wonderful.

And that was one of them. Yeah. I don't really have a lot of memories. I'm glad Cal remembers it because I felt good about the shot. It was. It was a great shot. No more color of their time. It's like the second time I had shot a shotgun in my life.

But, I mean, that. is right there. Second time he shot a shotgun in his life. Got to see some great dog work. The area that we were in has really wonderful habitat. And clearly it lit a fire under you, Phil. Yeah. It really

activated a hunter back there. And, you know, you got to go home with some pheasants. Sure. We help clean them and get him ready to roll and and threw some recipe suggestions out of them. And I think that really is like the R3 argument.

That's the R3 argument, but I would argue the pheasant was only a small part of that. You were the larger part. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So here's the,

the Idaho runs this in a different way where it's like the hunter has the choice. the choice to opt in. Yep. And it's basically a state match for outside funding to run this R3 program where these are the areas, the WMAs where we're going to release birds. And if you want to hunt pheasants here, you have to buy this stamp. Yep. And they're, I love the way that they put it because they will often say like, this program's

for young kids and old dogs or old dogs and young kids type of thing. And I think that's a better way of doing it. Because you also, as we covered in the wetland conservation easements, you get all these other benefits from good habitat, right, that aren't going to disappear. Let's get to that and circle back to, so Nate can finish up. Yeah, we'll finish up the history here. So that was in 2021 when they authorized that. concurrent to this, UGBEP, the Habitat Program, is still running, but in 2023, FWP themselves

asked to eliminate a provision that 5% of UGBP funds were held for private land stocking of pen-raised birds, mainly because there was no interest from landowners in stocking those pen-raised birds. So it's like, it's kind of, they're talking out of both sides of their mouth right now, because ultimately what the request is is to increase the, the stockings. locations from just state land to federal and private. And increasing the number of birds from- That's what's interesting is in 2021, so 2021 to 2025, there was about $2.5 million that go into the program. So instead of that $1 million per year that's authorized, only about $500,000 or half of the

allocated funds went into the program. That resulted in 10,000 pen-raised birds being released per year. And so the question that they're kind of raising through this is we're not limited by the number of pheasants that we can produce. We're not limited by the dollar amount at this point. We're limited by the amount of land that we can put it on. And so now we're asking to go out there and put it on private and federal land so that we can feel ostensibly to have more hunter recruitment. But really what it seems to be like is to fill that entire $1 million budget shortfall that the prison has. Sure. And it ain't hard to do the, I'm no mathematician, but 500K budget and you kick out 10,000 pen raised birds. That's 50 bucks a bird. 50 bucks a bird, which we'll talk about. So I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. And I called FWP. Greg Lemon over there is great. And what he clarified is this isn't a request for additional money or, and it's been reported on as we're requesting an increase from 10,000 to 50,000 birds. That's not actually, what's the changes. The change is where those birds can go. And so I asked him, is there going to be

some sort of quid pro quo where if we put state funded birds on private land, is that going to result in more access? Because that sounds like a great deal for me, or at least the silver lining. And he said that is the intent, but they're not in conversations with any specific landowners at this point. Not a great track record today. What about stocking those suckers on federal land? Federal land he didn't address specifically. He just said that's part of the request. But I then called a few senators who had written a local or state senators who had written a letter against this. And they just find it unlikely that the 4.5 million acres of state grassland we have is not suitable enough for even 50,000 pheasins. It's like what why do we need to go get more land?

Like what's going on here. And that's an open question. I don't know what the decision is or the decision-making process. Okay. I mean, timing here is not great with, like, drought conditions across the west. We're probably going to see open grazing on our state WMAs again this year. We're, like, reducing that habitat.

That's if we don't get some more rain here in August. There's that. And is there evidence that this results in youth tunnel? Yep. So that's what I asked the FWP spokesman. I said, well, if this is a whole, you know, youth hunter recruitment,

how are we measuring that? Are there stats that have brought, have borne this out? Is there a great hunter recruitment? And he said that they're, they're diligently trying to get better stats, but there's not a vehicle in place at this point. I mean, since that 2019,

and everybody was screaming about R3, R3, R3, R3, R3, and obviously there's a lot of people who scream about R3 today. But it is a failure. It just is a failure. Like R3 is just not, as it is as like a federal-driven program to the states, it is just not the thing that is producing more hunters. Having this type of opportunity,

I know several people, Ronnie Bame being one, he's like if it weren't for pen-raised pheasants, I wouldn't be a birdhunter. Sure, I mean, that's the way it was when I was growing up. up in Pennsylvania, but you can, you can say that all you want. He didn't grow up in Montana. Yeah. Montana has wild birds and they got quite a few of them.

Okay. So here's the wild bird argument, right? And this is, this is South Dakota who is like. Yeah. The pinnacle. Yeah. And if South, like South Dakota would be like the most aggressive, uh, lover at the bar. because they solicit hunters like no other state I've ever seen.

Their argument to releasing pen raised birds is after that first week of the season, most people, if they're having success out there, they're knocking down pen raised birds. And it takes the pressure off of those wild birds that are going to winter over and have successful broods. and that's why they have their program of like supplementation, right? And so they, you know, you have those preserve licenses out there where the private landowners are releasing tons and tons of birds. And that's what the idea is. Like there's tons of suitable habitat. And so the birds, they're planning on the pen raised birds to die.

Yeah, it's like, we know they're going to get killed. So we're protecting the wild birds kind of thing. When you go out with a bunch of new hunters and they slam their truck doors and you're watching birds fly out the end, you're like, well, there go the wild birds. And the ones that one right there. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of look at it. You know, obviously there's some decent arguments for both sides.

But I kind of in Montana, I look at it the way I look at how Montana decided to me. manage wild trout. So 50 odd years ago, Montana made the decision that if there's an established wild trout population in a river or a stream, we're not going to stock. There's no reason to stop trout in those streams, right? Like you have a self-sustaining wild population, leave it alone, let it do its thing. Like, we may stock like lakes for put and take fisheries, but for wild trout populations that are self-sustaining, leave them alone.

That's kind of where I'm at with this pheasant thing, you know? With the exception of improving habitat. Sure. That's like, yeah, and I think, I think generally, like, I'm not anti-stalking. I just, I think that this program could use some tweaking.

When you get into the issues with pheasant stocking, kind of across the board, but also here specifically, some stats from pheasants forever is that 40% die within a week, 75% die within a month and 95% die before the spring. And so your comments about shooting the pen raise birds, those stand. But then when you get in the deal for the actual taxpayer and the tradeoff versus

habitat improvement, we are paying, like the between Pittman Robertson and licensed sales, $50,000 a pheasant. $500,000 a year at 10,000 pheasants is $50 a pheasant. You can go buy like a 15-pound organic turkey for 50 bucks. You can go to a pheasant farm. You can go to Miller Ranch and buy one for 45 bucks. Yep. If you want. And I do, there was, there's one really good study out there.

And that's where they talk about like, here's what happens if you just stock pheasants. Here's what happens if you stock pheasants and do like a heavy predator management program. Here's what happens if, if you do the full management. Sure. You know, and I,

yeah, I think there's a significant die-off of birds regardless in the first 36 hours. But isn't it also fair to say that if you've got good habitat, like you're already, good habitat already in some ways mitigates the impact of predators on wild peasant populations. Yes. It's kind of doing some of the predator management work for you. Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, I've joked many, many times, right? if a Montana pheasant knew about South Dakota or Kansas or Iowa State, yeah, they just wouldn't be here. Because the like Kansas, what Kansas does on their, uh, uh, WMA properties. I can't remember what their acronym is, is unreal. There's, there's holdover food crops that they plant. There's all sorts of stuff.

And it is gorgeous. And it is wild. To be fair, there are some wildlife management areas in Montana and fishing access sites in Montana where there's fantastic habitat. Yeah, and they're pumping in the cash. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we could certainly see a lot more of it because there's some places.

Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like, do you want to play the instant gratification game with that? What is it? 2.5 million? Yeah. I mean, it's one million a year. One.

Okay. The instant gratification game. with one million or do you want to play the long game with that one million and do what calc suggests and invest in habitat yep and i think that's just just to hit kind of the pro to give it a fair shake the pro stockers um the youth hunter activation i mean just in the room you know we had we had phil not a youth hunter but shot his pheasant that's probably stocked um the inmate skills program that's not pointless you know that's a valuable thing that can that can uh increase quality of life for people um There is a prison budget deficit, and filling that is a good thing.

I think you should go to the general fund and ask for it that way, but this is a method. And then also, like, those, that farm is compliant with all of USDA's health health, like the USDA's natural poultry improvement plan. They, they have very strict testing. They have very strict protocols. They go above and beyond. And so there is a disease risk for sure, but they're doing what they can to mitigate it. And so it's not like this is just a flippant program where if they're going to release

bird flu into the local pheasant population. I think we've kind of talked about the anti, but, you know, habitat improvement instead of, I'm not sure to zero some game, but if I could put those million dollars that are currently going towards stocking into habitat, I think

every hunter would take that every day of the week. Yeah, because it's like the byproduct is like big white tails, big mule deer. Sure. Sure. It's not just more pheasant. Yeah. And you can keep cranking out. You can keep cranking out stocked peasants as long as you want and spending that money. But like you can't keep cranking out good habitat, right? Like there's only so much land out there. So, you know, you can pay for stocked pheasants or you can pay for land that'll be around for the next generation. It's kind of the way I look at it.

Yeah. And I think ultimately there's like decent bones. here, I think the intent could be good. And to your comment about Idaho, Cal, that might be a good tweak to this program. I just think as it's being currently executed, it's not very well thought out. But the, the cool thing was just, this is kind of my first experience with, like, local government and calling my, you know, you're always telling people to call your local senator. And Pat Flowers, my, my represent or my senator here in Belgrade, had his phone number online. I texted him. He called me right back and gave me his two cents on it. Greg Lemon at, uh, FWP. he called me right back and gave me their take on it.

And it was super helpful. And so go do the same thing. In this case, public comments open July 1st, August 19th. So have that it. Heck yeah. Nice work, Nate. Randall,

you're going to be hosting next week. Yes. Steve's going to be out for a couple more weeks. You're hosting. Yes. I am hosting the news show next week. I think we have. You got any juicy, like, teasers for us?

I haven't given it. any thought to what I'm going to do, actually. And send Randall an idea for what we're going to. Yeah. No, that's coming up. Very exciting. Very exciting. I wish I were up where Steve is right now, having the adventure of a lifetime.

But we must carry on in his absence. And so rest assured that we'll do our level best to give you once again another great news show. Yeah, and Steve will be making an appearance, correct? Nate, he's going to cover the grizzles. management thing that's going on where the feds would like to hand over management of Grizzlies to the states, Steve's going to weigh in on that via video for our next show. So tune in for that. Thanks a lot, guys. Nice job, Brody. Thank you. Well, that's excellent. When the seasons are on, the work doesn't stop. You're still scouting,

still adjusting, still putting in early mornings and long days. That's no off season. First light fieldware is built for Real use in season and beyond. No shortcuts. Check out First Lights new fieldware collection at firstlight.com. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.