The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 936: Something From The White House That We Can All Applaud

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

Steve Rinella and the MeatEater Crew Discuss: Trump’s executive orders on hunting and fishing; Etsy loves Epstein but hates squirrels; a new U.S. record whitetail and a Pennsylvania state record elk; a little more on Yellowstone wolves (yes, it never ends), Congressman Ryan Zinke on the A River Runs Through It Act; and more! Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Davis Tutt staggered forward, shouted, Boys, I'm killed. They've keeled over dead. Listen to gunfighters, starting on September 15th, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the news show, everybody. We got a doozy for you. This week we've got big, great news from the White House, which is very nice and a welcome break from a string of bad news from the White House. We've got a new U.S. typical White-tailed deer record, which nudges out the House.

Huff Buck, who we interviewed here on the podcast, so condolences to you Huff. We got a dude in Pennsylvania put on a onesie and shot a new Pennsylvania state record out with a crossbow. We got Etsy really is the devil. We've got fresh wolf news. And we hear from U.S. Representative Ryan Zinky about a piece of legislation called to get this, a river runs through it act, which is artful naming. But first, back to that giant buck. All right, earlier this month, Boone and Crocket announced that there is a new USA record for typical white-tailed deer.

And it's a buck that was killed 35 years ago. Here's how that came to be. Sam Ayupah of Northern Illinois was out pheasant hunting on November 28, 1991. Sam's passion was bird hunting. And he considers himself just a casual deer hunter. He said he'd always buy deer tags, but he never put much time or effort into actually deer. hunting. However, it was actually pheasant hunting that helped him kill

what would end up being the new USA record. Here is Sam telling the story of that hunt via Boone and Crockett. Bill. Okay, I was hunting birds. Around 3 30, we put the dogs up. I had to stand there because I saw a lot of scrapings and a lot of deer tracks. I said, I'm going to go

into deer stand. This was around 3.30 in the afternoon. Just before sundown, this deer come walking down the trail. He stopped, he looked around, walked a little bit, and stopped getting looked around. I lift up my slug shotgun. I took one shot. He jumped up to the air, came down, went over the hill.

Stood in my stand for another 15, 20 minutes, came down, saw the blood, went over the hill, and there he was laying dead on the other side of the hill. Call my buddy, and we helped process the deer at that time. Now that's a deer hunting story. Just no nonsense. Yeah, man. He cuts all the bullshit out, you know what I mean? Guys would take longer to tell you about a dough that they didn't kill.

That's just how quick. Totally. And this is the USA record. Plus, it doesn't seem like he was out there after a record, you know? No. It's like the Hanson. Dude, what an unbelievable deer.

So, but, hall on it. Yeah. Okay. You're going to get to all this. Uh-huh. Because this is a long time ago.

Yes. What a giant. That's bigger than one laying in my yard. Yeah. Yeah, he's that big. And what Sam doesn't mention in that clip is how the gun he killed it with, a Remington 870, was also his fesson hunting gun that day. So he just went home, swapped out his bird shot for slugs, and then went deer hunting. That's how it goes down.

So he wasn't even using a rifled slug barrel. It was just a smooth bore. So Sam kills that buck with very little fanfare. He skull caps the deer, nails it to a plaque, and hangs it in his basement. There he is. At that point, the buck basically disappears for three decades. then in 2023 Sam has an electrician at his house to do some work the electrician's name is don Don starts working in the basement and that's when he spots the deer and he can't believe his eyes

Don goes to Sam he's like Sam where the hell did this deer come from and Sam tells him the story how he killed it 30 years prior and that's when Don tells Sam hey this might be the Illinois state record and so Don pleads with Sam to get the buck scored because he thinks it might dethrone the Johnson buck, a very famous white tail, it was the Illinois state record of 204 inches that has stood since the 1960s. So Sam gets the buck roughly scored and it's even bigger than anyone imagined. Initial measurements show that this deer is actually of world record caliber, not just state record size. So the buck has now at this point like kind of entered the public eye and an antler collector in New York hears about it through the grapevine. He drives 600 miles

to Sam's house to see the rack and ends up purchasing it from him for an undisclosed mountain. Oh, come on. So the rack sits in a basement for 30 years. Antler collector hears about it. Prior to it being officially scored, antler collector goes and buys it from Sam. Man, I bet Sam got screwed on that deal, man. I'm guessing he didn't get his top dollar at that point.

That would be my assumption. So the antler collector then has it officially scored by Boone and Crockett, and it comes out to a typical score of. 207 and 7 8th. Even with those big old drop times. Even with those droppers. It made it the new Illinois record by three inches. The new USA record by two inches, but it fell short of the world record that was killed in Canada

by about six inches. Here are some highlights of the rack. The gross score was 233 and 7 eighths inches. It had 13 points. Oh, back up. Why is it all stuff now? because they do that. The antler collector went and got it stuff?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's totally, I don't think, buy a cape and put it on there. I get all that, but I mean, why?

Because it looks better. What's wrong with the way? Same had it. Yeah, just so you can look at it on a, on a white tail, a white tails. It's not him.

It's not his body. White tails hide that's not his. This is just like, what happens with these things, you know? And I am. Man, the brow tines are what got him the record,

I think. Brout tines, 13 inches each, where the brow tines. That's probably the highlight of the rack, the first thing you notice. The buck had 13 points. The frame is a 6 by 5. Two abnormal points on the left antler.

One of those is a 7-inch drop time. Inside spread of 20 inches. The biggest mass measurement was 6 inches, and each antler measured over 100 inches on their own. Man, go. We would have counted them little points where I came from. Well, if you can hang a ring on it. You can hang a wedding ring on it. Fred Troast from Michigan can hang a wedding ring on it.

Here's a deal, man. Here's where you're reporting is really falling short for me. That antler buyer, I feel like he's screwed. What's the guy's name? Sam? No. The hunter? Sam was the hunter.

The antler buyer was something Martin. I'm afraid that Sam got boned because I was just reading about it. My kid was reading me this. Our kids got this kiddie news magazine. My kid there a night was reading me a story about some kid goes into a thrift shop and buys a war, a Lakers or like a Lakers warmup jacket for a couple bucks.

And then it sold at auction for $86,000 because it was Wilts Chamberlain's warmup jacket. Mm-hmm. I feel that he pulled a one of those. I hope not. But did he pull a one of those on that dude? No one's going to tell me the price. I asked some of these folks in the past

what they got paid for their racks. Yeah. And usually NDAs come with these. It's like going to a yard sale in Michigan finding old man Rinella's tree stand yeah but that dude's giving me that back yeah I know but he probably got it for a steal

oh that's what you're saying probably be worth some money I don't know you might you might be signing an NDA when I get it back we're gonna talk about it on the news show anyway this is great this is great there's a few more wrinkles to this story uh again it is the world's second biggest typical white tail ever kid killed however when it was killed it was actually the world record because the myel Hansen Buck wasn't

shot until 1993. So two years after Sam Ayupa killed this deer. So that that thing sat in his basement for two years as the world record white tail without anyone knowing that it even existed. God, this guy got extra screwed out of all of his money. If he didn't know that, he would

have sold that thing for, he would have sold that thing for a quarter million dollars. Uh-huh. Yep. Another interesting detail, although it took over 30 years for the buck to resurface, it turns out this deer wasn't a complete unknown. A shed hunter actually picked up the buck's right side that would have been from the deer's 1989 rack and another shed hunter

picked up the bucks matching set that were from the 1990 rack. So the season prior to it getting killed those antlers had some global fame in the whitetail world because the 1990 left shed measured 105 inches, making it the second biggest shed of all time. What?

And why is that glued to a skull? Again, people just want to see it on a rack or on a hide. And so the, the shed person who found these two matching sets put them on a skull that was not the deer's skull steve's looking at a picture right now of the the shed hunter uh so the second giant second biggest shed of all time uh it wasn't until recently that this it was until recently this deer was known as the james all bring buck named after the man who found the 1990 matching sheds uh but of course

it is now the sam iupa buck the guy who killed the thing unbelievable they don't know exactly how it was, do they? No, but he throws a pretty similar rack from like 89 to 90 to 1991. It looks like he's still on his way up. So I would guess when he was killed six and a half, probably. Six and a half or seven and a half

is when they'll start to go downhill. Yeah, but the Hanson Buck was only four. Is that what they said? The world record was four. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. So this dude, this dude unknowingly

down on his mantle, piece with his next to pictures of his kids graduate in high school. Not even on his main floor in his basement. In his basement. Next to like, and there's a picture next to his pictures of his kids graduating from high school. He had for two years the world record white tail. He did.

And I don't know this detail. I just assume it's an unfinished basement. Like, you know, it's within a couple feet of like some duct work. It wasn't next to his kids, pictures of his kids. It was next to the breaker box.

The electrician was working on. That makes you think how many world record bucks are out there right now. totally we don't know about yeah there's that great story about this dude that had the biggest the guy that holds the idaho meal deer record he shot it years ago i think his name was urney or something like that shot it years ago remarked that it looked like a screwy buck quote threw it in his barn and then a long time later someone's like hey you ever have that measured yeah and it's too and this dude was out pot hunting he's like now just going out to get some deer meat shot it thought it looked like a screwy buck i'm sure there's

Stories like that all over the place. The world record desert big horn sheep was killed in Baja, California in 1940 by a Native American who was just meat hunting. He didn't even take the skull from the field. It was a rancher who found the skull out there, brought it back to the ranch, sat at there. A year later, some other hunter comes in who does kind of is aware of these things. And he's like, where did that thing come from? And they're like, oh, yeah, some native fella killed it here last year. turned out to be the world record and nobody had any yeah that's crazy you know i was telling spencer the

day and he didn't seem that interested in it know what um if i could see any any buck in in in the world it would be this buck so you know colonel dodge like dodge city yeah yeah what dodge city everybody thinks is named after colonel dodge but it was already named dodge city when colonel dodge got there but like colonel dodge uh big hunter this is back in the you know he's big hunter in the mid to late 18 hundreds. He's down in Texas. I think he was down in Texas when it happens and shoots a buck, a mule deer. And he's like, this was a buck the likes of which no one had ever seen.

But I lost it in the fire. Oh. So you wonder like what was up? I don't know. Maybe it's a dink. I don't think it's a dink. Because at that time, like all that unhunted ground, you know. And he's like talking about no one's seen a buck like this.

Like what was that? that buck. But it burned, but it burned up. Didn't even care about it. I know. But he did. So he's like,

the fact that he in his memoir is like, dude, this was a smoking buck. You got to wonder what that buck was. He says, interested, Brody's interested. I'm into it.

I'm into it. You see those old-timey black and white photos of people having, you know, the buck pole photos. They're not even smiling. Yeah. And every single deer there is like a giant.

Yeah. Or they got all these deer hanging on a pole and like laying off in the background is. some giant that's like off to the side. Yeah, you know. One final thing. If all of these numbers are like, if this isn't your language and this is making you dizzy

in the words like typical and non-typical and deductions and it seems kind of convoluted, that's because it is. Here's a great example of how complicated and ridiculous big buck measurements get. We had Dustin Huff on the podcast in 2022. It was in 2021 when he killed his famous white tail that he named Moose. the title of the podcast was episode 338, the biggest buck in the USA, and that was an accurate title until 2025. Here's what happened. Every three years, the official awards program judges panel from Boone and Crockett gets together for a meeting.

And it's at this meeting that they verify the scores of all of the biggest animals that were entered into the books since the last time that they met three years prior. Well, at the 2025 triennial panel, the group of judges remeasured, Dustin Huff's buck and wound up giving it an official score of 205 and six eighths. This was five inches smaller than previous scores. And it wound up making it three eighths of an inches, three eighths of an inch smaller than the James Jordan buck. Thus, Dustin's deer went from number one in the USA to number two. I don't know that.

And of course, with the addition of Sam Ayupah buck, Huff now sits at number three. So I talked to Dustin about this earlier this week. he's still of course like thrilled that he killed the deer doesn't care if it's one two or three uh but he said how the whole process has made him wonder if there's a better way to measure the size of deer antlers where there's not so so many things that are uh you know just like left up to judgment calls yes and and you have to wait 60 days well actually you have to wait three years until this panel can get together it's all very complex you want to know what it is and you get different guys scoring them well which i know what steve's answers are going to be here's what dustin wants to be

Dustin would love it if there was a 3D scan that could be done. Oh. That throughout any, like, human error, there would be no more judgment calls. It would take into account all of the mass measurements rather than just eight of them, like the Boone and Crockett system. And maybe if that program existed, we would look at the top 10 deer in the USA, all different because of how it would, you know, take into account the actual size of the right. That's basically the same thing you're going to say, isn't it?

well i was just gonna say just to be just to be provocative i was gonna say i've always been curious about water right yeah it's the same thing yeah like don't come in a tank of water yep and and but then you're throwing all this non-tifical typical thing and all that so maybe like for non-typical you you dump it in a tank of water measure the volume of antler and that's like the deal and you can shoot some big crazy club horned buck that's the problem right yeah the sundews shoot some big crazy buck that's got like a weird growth on and it winds up being like, hot, number one. Yeah. But it doesn't even look like a deer.

Yeah. So, uh, new USA record buck. All right, man. Well, I'm waiting for Phil. Oh, normally you go. Now let's move on to Okay. You podcast listeners that, uh, remember back to a very popular episode we did called, uh,

well, with the, I remember what the hell the thing was called. It was with author Brian Burrow. It was episode 740 and it was about the gunfighters about the gunfighter era and about the weird thing that he explores in his book and he talked about on the podcast is why

do all of the gun fighters come from Texas or have passed through Texas? What was it about Texas that produced all the famous gun fighters? Well, check this out.

It was so popular and such an intriguing idea of the history of the gunfighters that Brian Burrow is coming on to our podcast network and launching a podcast called the gunfighters. It drops weekly

on Tuesdays on the gunfighters feed. It's out now. So check out that podcast, The Gunfighters, which is the story of all the great gunfighters. Also, we keep talking about this pre-sale and all that

B.S. Okay. The live tour tickets are just like regular old on sale. If you want to come see us in the live tour, it's on sale. December 14th, we're going to be in Grand Rapids, Michigan. December 15th, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. December 16, Madison, Wisconsin. December 17, Des Moines, Iowa. December 18, Minneapolis, Minnesota. December 19, Fargo, North Dakota. Me Either Live, the Christmas tour.

I've heard that the Fargo venue is the hottest one right now. If you're thinking of going in Fargo, you better get your tickets. You know what I was worried about that one because all these other places I got buddies there and I couldn't think of many buddies in Fargo. So like, who's going to buy the tickets? Steve's going to make some. My mom's not there. All right.

Our next segment is sports ball fights. Football season is here and we are going to predict the winner of some games this season. But we're not basing this on. talent or coaching or home field advantage like every other analyst. We are picking based on the merits of their animal mascots. Thanks to Draft Kings for sponsoring today's segment. This week, Steve is going to predict how it would go if a Bronco fought a ram. Steve, who would win that skirmish?

Well, there's who would win? If I picture a Bronco and a ram fighting, there's who would win and who needs to win. Okay. Explain? I'll explain. And they wound up being the same answer. When a ram, these guys measured the impact of,

I can't remember if it was big horns or dolls, but they measured the impact. You know when they jump up to butt heads? When those things butt heads, they measured how much force it is, it's something like, it's something like 50 times the amount of force it would take,

to shatter a human skull. Jeez. A devastating car accident is happening. Yeah, meaning if you sat there and got strapped in and led a big horn ram, do his thing where he gets up on his back feet and gets wheeling head and does it, you're a dead man. Even if he got a football helmet on, probably. Oh, yeah.

No, you know what it is? It's not, I remember now it was 20x. Okay. 20x what it takes to crush a human skull. I wonder how they measured that. force i don't know same dudes that figure out car crashes i don't know it's good question car crashes a little more they got all these they got all these they got all these they got all these sponge if you if you look at the skeletal structure on them underneath there there's like these like

these sponge structures are like shock absorbers anybody that's heard it sounds like a 22 going off i mean it really does like you can be out in the woods in november yeah they oh someone's shooting a gun it's like no it's big horns hitting heads so So if you strapped in some bronco, a horse, strapped them into a thing and let a ram smoke them dead. That's who would win. Now here's why it needs to be that way. Because when I hear the word broncos,

now a lot of cowboy guys are going to hear the word bronco, and they're thinking like riding around on horses. I hear the word bronco, and I'm thinking feral horses. Yeah. Or quote unquote wild horses. Something that wandered off some BLM. land in Nevada. Yeah.

And because of some poorly construed legislation back in the 70s, we've created a problem where we now have a infestation of wild horses and burrows, aka Broncos, running around on desert bighorn habitat and using up food resources and water resources that should be going to native wildlife. That's what I think when I hear the word bronco So these actual Rams should be fighting these Broncos These Rams should be fighting these Broncos If they could smoke them, they'd smoke them

But they need to win Because there is an existential fight In the American West Nevada, Utah Okay There's an existential fight in the American West Between Rams and Broncos Okay So there's just a lot at stake for a ram

So there's a lot going on You're taking a ram Dude, they would and they have to. Okay. Rams beat the Broncos. One app, every sport, all 50 states. New Draft Kings customers sign up with code Me Deeder. Spend just five bucks and get 150 in rewards within 14 days.

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Roll with us. Must be 19 years of age or older to play. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned about your gambling or that of someone close to you, visit connectsonterio.ca. Meat Eater and best-selling author Brian Burrow present Gunfighters, a new podcast series about the American West and the violence that made its most legendary figures infamous. Davis Tutt staggered forward, shouted,

boys, I'm killed. They keeled over dead. From notorious killers to blood feuds in Texas, gunfighters strips away the myth to get at the reality, who these men really were, and what they actually did. The first great gunfighter, John Wesley Harden, killed at least 26 men before he turned 21 years old.

It helped you know that he was pretty much a complete psychopath. Listen to gunfighters, starting on September 15th, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And get your shooting irons. These stories don't miss. Okay, your news. You know, I'm not going to play it, Steve, because you don't like it, and I need to think of a new one.

I thought about just going... Just keep play it just so people can see how bad it is. Yeah, sure, I love to. Just to remind people how dumb it is. It's like a non-thing. It's not that bad. Do it again? Okay.

When I say three, because I can... No, no. Sorry. It's so dumb and so short, you don't even know that it happened. Okay. Ready? Okay, I'm going to count to three. Okay, here we go.

Okay. One, two, three. There's like the little pigeon noise. It's below Phil's normal, high standards. Yes. Like if I said to my 10 year old, I'd make a little thing and he made that, I'd be like, oh, it's so cute, good job. But it's like, it's Phil.

Phil's like got a career of great things he's made. It's just his worst thing he's ever made. As long as you hang it up on your fridge, Steve, that's all I care. What? Yeah, I don't know. Well, honestly, I don't think it's that bad. No, here's the thing. I said it last week when I was putting these together, that was the one where I was like,

eh, I can do better, but we record in five minutes. So I ran down. stairs. And I can do better. Phil, share with, share with listeners. Yes. Share with listeners is the quote that you looked up yesterday. Oh, there can be no deep disappointment without a deep love. Martin Luther King Jr. I thought he's talking about America. Phil said he was talking about the church. But I'm saying that talking about Phil. Oh. No. Wow. Powerful. No great disappointment without deep love.

So, like, he, like, you know, everybody's got their worst stuff. Mm-hmm. I don't know. It's like some, not all Stones albums are great. Yeah. Steel wheels. It's like, come on. I love music.

That's Phil's steel wheels. I went to that, that concert. He's not impressed. I love music from the 70s, and I heard someone express one time how, like, amazing and phenomenal. And they just, like, didn't miss in the 70s with the music. And someone was like, well, no, you're only hearing what survived the 70s. There was actually a lot of bad music in the 70s. It just doesn't get played on the oldie station today.

That's funny you mention that. Because my favorite thing in the world to do is goof on Seth about how little Seth knows about 70s rock and roll. It's just like it's a joke that never gets old. It happens a lot lately. Yeah, goofing on Seth about him not knowing who wrote famous 70 songs is the best thing I could do with my time. I haven't found a way to make it. It came up daily when we were in Florida last week. Yeah, and you guys get to travel again in a few days.

We know, we're like, hey, Seth, you know who this is? No. Ha ha ha. That's just what we do for hours. I can bring back a Gordon Lightfoot parody again if you wants. All right brought to you by Banish. I'm holding a banish can right here. And with kitty deer season coming up, this is becoming a very important part of my arsenal.

Yep. Dude. I mean, I like it for me. But if I'm hunting with my kids, I especially like it. it makes them like shooting. It's great. So hit it, Seth. Etsy.

We're back with more Etsy hypocrisy. Was it the last one where I talked about the Etsy thing with fur? I think so last week was the AMA with Steve, but it was the week before that. It's totally coincidence that I'm holding this squirrel. Did you buy that on Etsy? No, but isn't it bizarre that now, okay, now on Etsy, you would not be able to to sell a squirrel. I didn't even grab it for this reason. On Etsy, you would not

be able to sell a roadkill squirrel coosy. Yep. But I thought, well, go ahead. Well, so a United States Fish and Wildlife Biologist wrote in. Who chooses not to be named. Yep. It does not want to be

named, but they wrote in with this email. I listened to your Etsy hypocrisy piece with great interest. Under the Migratory Bird Protection Act, it is illegal to possess most native bird feathers. Under the Lacey Act, it is illegal to move protected animal products across state lines. CITES strictly regulates foreign birds across national borders. However, if you start poking around on Etsy, you will find many stories,

stores where bird feathers are for sale that clearly violate at least one of the above, axe or cites. Try searching for burrowing owls or barn owl. Some of the stores say the feathers are ethically sourced or from captive birds. But that makes no difference according to the laws when people don't get permits. And they both, and they both the buyer and the seller need them. And Etsy does not bother with it. and they ban ethically, legally sourced fur and fur products.

The hypocrisy makes me sick. You know, some more hypocrisy on Etsy, now on the monas, this whole thing about just how, like, misguided this fur ban was, and counterproductive and contradictory of any kind of regulatory structure and what's actually going on with these wildlife species in America, is that you can go on there. And you can go on Etsy and buy,

you know what a bust is like a like a carving like decorative busts like carvings of people's like the shoulders like the marble ones okay there's this whole industry on there you can buy Sean Combs

busts you can buy Jeffrey Epstein bus you can buy sculptures of Sean Combs and Jeffrey Epstein with their arms around each other you can buy spring break 2000 Epstein Island t-shirts there's this whole genre of

products on Etsy, which capitalizes on the pain and suffering and exploitation of young women. And Etsy is like, oh, that's cool. That's totally cool. What we don't want you doing is selling a coozy made of squirrel fur that you harvested legally with a license that funds your state fishing game agency. It is so dumb and sickening. You know, what's interesting. I just saw right now is that you can buy large.

barn owl pellets so you can buy fur but it has to be eaten by an owl and then throw it up the fact that they caved that just makes like someone we got to hear from someone that's working on this there's someone working on an Etsy alternative that's just like a more this then like an alternative to Etsy where you can support a company that's not so immoral and hypocritical and full of shit um yep man there's all kinds of feathers and stuff on you can buy Canadian goose wings or Canada goose wings because it's not fur, it's not mean.

All right, the news. You got a good one for this film? Oh, this is good. What happens in the end there? I think he gets eaten by a cat or something. What does the machine that's going, well, it's the Morse code machine that... It's eaten by a cat.

Well, it's, it kind of morphs into a nut hatch. So I tried to find a bird that sounded like Morse code and I'm morphed. Okay. So that bird is then eaten by a cat. Understood. I can add like a little hiss in there too, making it more obvious.

Okay. Out of, we talk about like some, like a really good piece, like a pretty complex long piece of great news for hunters and anglers that came out of the White House. All right.

Now let me adjust my fonts here because I'm blind. You know, I'm gonna put my glasses on, I'm gonna put my glasses on this on a bitch right here. It's getting serious. Yeah, getting real serious. Okay, here's the deal.

Here's the deal. Now, these are executive orders. A couple of weeks ago, they had in the White House, they had this, like, party. I saw this invitation floating around. They had this, like, reception, like, celebrating American hunters and anglers. And you could get invited. I wasn't invited. I was sad about that.

I have friends that were invited. They went. I wasn't there. And out of this meeting came a couple of executive orders that are, like, really sharp. And they're good. And they're nuanced. And these are lists, like these big lists of fixes that are coming out of the White House to fix certain management issues. There's a fishing one and a hunting one.

The fishing one that came out of the White House is like an executive order. Restoring American saltwater angling and recreation. All right. let me give you with a little how this kind of thing words out what it looks like it starts out by saying by the authority vested in me

as president by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America it is hereby ordered colon now it starts out this executive order starts out with an approach that I'm

sometimes uncomfortable with but it's very common and it comes from enemies and allies alike. And it's this approach where you say, you're like, hey, nature is worth a bunch of money. And hunters and anglers spend a bunch of money. Therefore, these things are important, right? And I'm always like, the reason I say I'm uncomfortable with that approach is, while true, I don't think that those things need to be economically important to be valuable.

So I'm like, yes, that's all great. But that's not the final point. So that's why I say I'm uneasy with that. But it happens all the time. Everybody does it. They mean well. It's more of an intellectual argument around that. But again, these executive orders are like are all great news with one potential exception that I'll get into.

But the order goes on. Okay. From there it goes on for a sentence like this. All right. It says America's outdoor recreation sector. So this is outdoor recreation sector. generates over $1.2 trillion annually and supports over 5 million jobs. To ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong.

So this is an important sentence here. I want people to pay attention to. It says this. To ensure America's recreational fishing remain strong, federal fisheries management must appropriately prioritize both recreational and commercial fishing. So it suddenly kind of sets up that there is an emerging rub between recreational and commercial fishing,

which will get to because it's saying, it doesn't say to ensure America's recreational and commercial fishing remains strong. It's not what it says. It says to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong, federal managers must appropriately prioritize both recreational and commercial. Just give you another little more flavor for how this thing reads out,

and then we'll get into the points. It says, this order modernizes federal management by shifting the federal posture from restricting recreational access to fishing to actively empowering affiliated industries and coastal communities. It is the policy of the United States to elevate the marine recreational fishing industry as an important consideration in all federal,

ocean, coastal, and public land decision making. So that's kind of like the that's like the overriding gist, the thrust of it. Can I ask a question? Sure. Do you think this is linked to the Red Snapper thing? Oh, give me a minute. All right. It's way more complicated than that. I'm just wondering. Yes, it gets into that. What the tricky part of this is, in doing my research on this executive order, I had to talk to a lot of people who deal in these certain things that we're going to get into

to be like, what are they trying to fix? Like it proposes fixes, but it doesn't get into what the rub is. So you have to a little bit track down and you'll find experts in these fields that are like, oh, well, here's where that comes from. Here's what that,

here's the annoyance that that is trying to address. Because the order is, you know, it's like seven or eight pages, right? So it doesn't give the whole background. But if you get into these, you can find out here's the annoyance that this is addressing, or here's the specifics that this is addressing. And I'll try to provide some of those where I can, okay? Here's some more language from this.

So I can't go through the whole thing and read you the whole thing. It would take forever. I'm going to read you some key parts. Section 3. Again, this is from the president of the United States. This is from Donald J. Trump. Section 3. It begins like this.

modernizing data collection infrastructure for recreational catch and effort estimates. It says to resolve chronic inaccuracies and latency in federal commercial catch and effort estimates, the federal government must transition away from antiquated data collection and sampling practices. Basically it comes down to this. And if your mom and dad work at Noah, like, all respect. But basically it comes down to an educated perspective that Noah has in large measure shit the bed on fisheries data collection. All right. They're relying on these old systems of like random creel surveys.

You know, you have a guy go down to the dock and they, hey, what did you catch? Randomly, okay? Or these mail-in questionnaires where fishing season ends and like a ton of. of time goes by and you get a mailing questionnaire and they're asking you to try to remember back to such and such date and how many fish you caught. Their system that they're using to measure how much

people are fishing and how much they're catching was built around this idea of establishing these very long-term trends. So they're sort of looking at like over time what do the trends look like? And meanwhile, they're getting their asses kicked by the states who are doing a much better job of finding out

what is happening on the water and in the water at any given moment. A thing that's not brought up here, but that drives us is this whole Red Snapper debacle, where Noah is trying to assess Red Snapper stocks through these antiquated systems, and they're just not getting an accurate picture of what goes on in the ground, and they're getting a picture that contradicts the picture that the states are getting who are otherwise managing all the fisheries. And it leads to these kind of crazy seas.

seasons, seasons that are a couple weeks long, seasons that are a couple days long, and creates this kind of like Bonanza atmosphere. And then even then they don't know what's actually happening in the water. So it's given them, like the order is giving them a little bit of a nut tap and saying there's people that are doing this better than you, that they're better staffed. This is not in the order, but it's true they have like a better rapport with anglers. And you're getting beat up on this. instead of mailing papers off through the Postal Service

that are going to end up in like junk mail piles, how about using a thing that this order specifically addresses, how about using apps? Mandatory or optional where appropriate apps where people are telling what is happening on the water right now? When am I fishing? How many fish are we seeing? So that you can make educated management decisions

and have like adaptive management strategies that play into what's happening. The same way, if you think about in hunting, the same way you have all these quota systems, you can turn on a hunt and you can monitor what's going on and then make adjustments. So that's what that one is coming from. Then there's this other fisheries one here. It says to address the decline of iconic recreational fisheries, such as the Atlantic striped bass and other depleted stocks,

the secretary shall generate a list of key species to use in partnership with the recreational angling community, charter captains, and state agencies to gather, the important words here, to gather real-time data, deploy advanced tagging technologies, and improve catch-and-release mortality estimates. And I've tried to find from people when they say improve catch and release mortality estimates. Let me check my text messages. I'm waiting on some info. I don't think I'm going to get it in time. No. What I'm wondering on this, my guess, my gut on this is that they're saying that on things like striped bass, I wouldn't be surprised if they're saying these guys are killing way more fish than they think they are.

I'm sure. I don't think it's the other way around. And it may be that they're saying why have a catch and release season and just have a limited, very limited catch and kill. I think that, because if you look at, well, it's, the stocks are depleted. We're going to make this super narrow, like with striped bass, stocks are depleted. We're going to make the super narrow slot limit. Right.

Where you can keep a striped bass between 30 and 32 inches. Everybody runs out. They want to get a keeper striped bass. They run out and catch three dozen fish. turn them all loose get their one slot fish and you're like I killed a fish and I think that the answer is buddy you killed 10 fish man I'm sure you killed 10 fish yep and so like getting an accurate sense of what's happening when you create these situations where you're generating all this catch and release effort thinking you're saving fish when you might be smoking fish so that my get I don't know I haven't verified it with anybody I was hoping to get a text and time verifying this that That's what I think is happening right there. So again, also updating management, like updating data collection. It's all good stuff.

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But don't wait around. The giveaway ends Monday, October 12, 2026 at 1159 p.m. Then there's more stuff about a direction from the Interior Department to do that money thing that I talked to earlier. Like, how big is this industry basically saying that they want to, well, I'll just read the words. Within 180 days of the date of this order, the secretary shall develop a comprehensive. five-year strategic plan with clear implementation milestones to improve the collection, analysis, and application of recreational fisheries economic data to support fisheries management. This plan shall ensure that the economic impact and value of recreational fishing,

blah, blah, blah, is fully accounted for in federal fishery management decisions and harvest opportunities. Because what you're going to do is this. Earlier I said this thing, without saying it, I believe that this thing is setting up a potential, I don't want to say a conflict, but a potential reckoning between recreational angling and commercial angling, where commercial angling has always had this value around economic output. And I think that, not I think, what this is saying is we need to look at how big recreational fishing is and what it is as an industry. So in these areas where we're looking at recreational use versus commercial use, they don't mention this such as the trawl industry in Alaska, for instance. Or like commercial king salmon and recreational king salmon. Yep, they're saying, we're saying, oh, no, no, no, the commercial fishing is job. recreational fishing is people messing around having fun and they're saying let's get a full picture of what this industry looks like because you might find in time that that's a bigger industry that it's better for the end it's better for the country as a whole to support recreational more this doesn't say that this is me editorializing on what it says now here's where things get really good section six fast tracking artificial reefs and habitat creation I don't want to spend a ton of time on this one

but it's this. You get all these offshore oil rigs. And over the years, there has just been an ever-evolving sense of what should happen with these offshore oil rigs. Sometimes they're using them to make this program called rigs to reefs. Right now what they've been doing over the last bunch of years is just harvesting these reefs. So you build these oil rigs. They go offline, and these things have, some people are out there going to contest. this but they're wrong and I don't even care what they say.

These things have created a fishery. They've created a habitat and a habitat desert. Seth can back me up. Anyone who has ever jumped in on an oil rig and jumped in where there's not an oil rig and the Gulf of Mexico will tell you, they have created, I mean, they are an artificial reef. They have created and maintained a fishery. these rigs create biodiversity and these rigs create biomass. They've been operating on a program recently where they take these things called rig reapers.

They remove the whole damn rig down to subsurface and take away every scrap of anything and call that good news. And it pisses off the fishermen in these places who are like, you're hauling away all the habitat. Like don't even burden the conversation with why those rigs are there in the first place. they're there now. They provide habitat. And this is saying this is a program, the federal outer continental shelf reef in place program to facilitate the conversion of decommissioned offshore oil and gas and other use structures. There's an interesting carve-out for wind energy, which Trump hates.

But anyways, everything but wind energy, which kind of cracks me up. So everything offshore, other than shit built for wind energy, which Trump hates, into permanent artificial reefs through reef in place, topple in place, or other approved reefing methods. That's great news. There's just no two ways about that one being great news. Here's another one. I mentioned earlier the Wild Horse and Burrow Protection Act where you create some legislation and it winds up coming around to screw you because no one can see into the future and you shouldn't make binding resolutions. sometimes. Here's a big one.

Section 7, managing predators. And it is looking at shark and pinoped depredation on fishery species. There are a lot of places in the country where the shark populations are out of hand. Now people

can look and be like, well, how can that be true? I hear all I read about is sharks being depleted. Yes, it is a big planet. three-fourths of the earth is covered in ocean. There are plenty of places in those oceans where sharks are depleted. But I'll point out, you can only hunt elk on about 14% of native elk habitat. The fact that elk are not recovered in southern Wisconsin does not mean that elk are not recovered in Colorado.

It's just a big place. And so this is opening up some latitude to look at shark depredation and take appropriate management efforts. And probably what this is getting at without saying it is loosening up shark harvest regulations. It seems like every other year you're reading about some state that says total ban on shark harvest. You shouldn't be doing that stuff because it's not like adaptive management. And this seeks to address some of that. Projects for increasing fish abundance. Can you back up?

You didn't address the pinniped thing, which I think is kind of important. I should have talked about the pinniped thing. A great pinnipet example. would be trying to recover salmon in the Columbia watershed. The problem, one of the problem, not the problem, not the problem for Pacific salmon in the lower 48, okay? The problem for Pacific salmon in the lower 48 was the construction of dams, which have all these obvious problems with, you have, you have an adrumous migratory fish, dams obstruct it.

They keep fish from going upstream, and they keep young fish from coming downstream. That's the core primary issue. And trying to work around that and find a way to move forward on fish recovery while dealing with the dams being present. There's all these steps you can take. But there's a big thing happening is over the decades, sea lions have figured out that if you want to kill a ton of salmon, go to a dam. Yep. The dams are great for them. Because the fish, even when there's structure there, fish ladders and things, the fish

pause at the dams and sea lions, just through word of mouth, have learned to come. You're going to think that I'm lying. I'm not. Seen lions have learned to come from literally hundreds of miles away to bitch-slap salmon at those dams. And you got strong seed line numbers, but people are like, oh, no, no. you can't mess with sea lions because of the Marine Mammal Protection Act. And the Marine Mammal Protection Act becomes an impediment to restoring salmon.

So you have healthy sea lion populations now, which you can't mess with. And you have salmon, which you're trying to help. But now you can't help them because you're stuck and got screwed by this other piece of legislation called the Marine Mammal Protection Act. And it's trying to do some necessary work to allow, again, like nuanced, thoughtful, adaptive management practices and get out from under a lot of like very burdensome counterproductive regulations. It's all it's it's it's good stuff and I haven't even gotten to the main thing. I'm trying to move fast now. Projects for increasing fish abundance.

Yes. And it's all the big one on this is that section eight projects for increasing fish abundance. Here's the key sentence. There's always habitat stuff going on. Here's the key sentence. Agencies are encouraged to transition habit. restoration metrics toward production

based goals which is saying if you're going to go do aquatic habitat projects we want you to measure is it producing fish good stuff and then the end always cracks me up

the final thing in all these orders the costs for publication of this order shall be borne by the Department of commerce. I don't know what that means, but I think it's cute that they end these all that way. Donald J. Trump, the White House, September 17, 2026. Now, the other executive order, it's twin cousin. It's fishing cousin. Executive order, reinvigorating America's hunting heritage, starts out a similar way. This one's more flowering. This was a different writer. This writer starts out. Section 1, purpose and policy. Section 1. It's

very flowery approach. Trump didn't write this. He says, I think if he wrote it, there would be the word, there's a word, an enigma. So American hunters, anglers, and landowners are the greatest conservationist the world has ever known. Hunting promotes healthy and robust animal populations, conserves our beautiful wildlife for future generations, and ensures that every American can enjoy our rugged, diverse and untamed frontier areas.

It says, our forefathers looked with awe on our vast prairies, towering mountains, serene deserts, coastal paradises, and rushing rivers. It says, that same awe, not the language you'd expect from the White House. It says, that same awe motivates millions of Americans to invest billions of dollars

in countless hours into, to stewarding our land and conserving our wildlife. Now, again, this is all or 99% good news, and I'll tell you where the 1% might be a little bit weird. But the above stand, I have to point out, in celebrating these executive orders, I have to point out that there's a rub here. There's like a contradiction here, okay?

But he's just talking about the awe, the wilderness quality, okay, untamed frontier. The same email, I got some, a bunch of people sent me this executive order. I also got this executive order from the external affairs team at the White House. And in this thing, in this email, in the body of the email, there's a reminder about a bunch of things that came out of the White House that I feel were assaults on the untamed frontier areas. Also coming out of the White House was an executive order to unleash American energy, right, that opened up hundreds of millions of acres

of federal lands and waters to energy development and also took out a lot of regulatory checks on those developments. Not great for hunters and anglers. In August 26th, Department of Agriculture took action to rescind the 2001 roadless rule. All right? On 45 million acres of national forest system, really bad for hunters and anglers.

So that untamed wilderness, those are things that people do to tame the untamed wilderness. It's spirit of the unwild. But I don't want that to totally detract from all of the good news found in here. There's a sentiment expressed

in this executive order up top that is puzzled. Not puzzling, but it says. Despite this legacy, accessing federal lands for hunting has never been harder. Hunting opportunities in our nation have declined due to the federal

government's regulatory overreach, confusing and inconsistent access policies and heavy-handed restrictions. Okay. But then right off it gets really detailed with really great news. It's just good news, all right? It instructs within 90 days, the Secretary of the Interior is directed to allow for hunting within the Castle Mountains National Monument and Craters of the Moon National Monument and Preserve in Idaho.

So boom, right off the bat, when I'm saying good news, it's like, boom. There's 21,000 acres of new hunting access in California and potentially hundreds of thousands of acres of hunting access in Idaho. When these monuments were created, they did the worst thing you can do with a monument, which is hand them order to the park service. The park service sends puts park rules on them and cuts out hunters. The order is guided by an idea that unregulated hunting is incompatible, or sorry, The park service perspective is that regulated hunting is somehow incompatible with monument status, which is totally bogus.

And the order confronts this head on. It says, I have determined that appropriately managed hunting would not put the objects of historic and scientific interest that these monuments protect at risk. Boom. It's like it is, it's flawless. The only flaw it has is that it didn't strip gates of the Arctic, the gates of the Arctic National Park away from the Park Service. Are you familiar with Craters of the Moon? Yes.

It's like very barren land. Sure. A lot of it is. Like, how many elk or deer are actually going to be killed there? It doesn't matter. Single digits. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

I'm just saying. You think some dude hunting is going to mess up those rocks. No. There's no reason. There's no reason that they should have ever gone in and said, you know what's not compatible? Mm-hmm. With all these really hard rocks is hunting. Mm-hmm.

It doesn't matter. To say that it's opened up like hundreds of thousands of acres in Idaho to hunting would be like, well, now we're going to let people Elkhund in Florida, you know? No, it's not like that. There's just like, you think, I don't really, I don't, I'm not even like interested in your opinion on this. To be frank, it doesn't matter. Uh-huh. why would you have excluded it in the first place? If there's nothing there, especially.

Yeah, go for it. It's just like, there's not going to be a lot of elk and deer killed there. I'll tell you what, if you came and said to me, hey, you know what, we're going to for a year give you exclusive access to this hundreds of thousands of acres, I'm going to go kill a boon and crock at meal deer. Somebody's going to do. Yeah. Yes. It doesn't matter. It's not your call to make.

These are going to be the good old days of craters of the moon hunting for like these next couple seasons. Craters of the moon is like a geologic feature. I'm not talking like a little crystal sitting there on the pedestal. It's a geological feature. Miles of lava rock. I see what you're saying, Spencer, but mule deer elk and coyotes roam the area. Pronghorns also cross the monument.

Predators include bobcats, mountain lions, red foxes and badgers. Yeah, Spencer, what are you saying? Doesn't matter. I'm guessing the state already has their boundaries drawn for units this year. Like I would assume no big game. is going to be killed there in 2026, but I don't know. Might miss the season.

Yeah. But it's great news because it is bullshit that hunters got pushed out of those areas. It has no impact. It has no impact. Okay. Here's another thing. It's a funny one to choose. That's all.

There's 150 national monuments or something to be like, go hunt craters of the moon. All right. I expect more to come. Okay. I expect more to come. Like I said, a really good move. but it's been explained to me that it would take an act of Congress

Gates of the Arctic National Park should have never been handed to the park service ever. It's a park that gets about like a visitor a year. I was reading this being like, please, please, please. But someone said it's not, it's not an executive order thing. Castle Mountains I'm not familiar with.

Maybe that place is crawling with. Listen, I got a friend. I have a dear friend. Mm-hmm. And one day I was trying to explain to him God, we're gone. This segment's going too long. I have a dear friend.

And one day I was explaining him, I was trying to explain him. He's like an absolute, he's like a Republican absolutist. And I was trying to explain to him one time. I'm like, yeah, but there's a lot of issues where there's a lot of issues where Democrats tend to have our side on habitat protections.

And like, and I get it. I get it. But it's just more complicated than what you're making it. And he said to me, I'll never agree with what you're saying. He says, Democrats have taken away for me everything in this world that I love. And when he told me the things that he loved,

one of them was hunting in the Mojave Desert. Okay. So, no matter who's, whether you've got Republicans or Democrats, there's always little gifts they can give you. The same way when you're a kid, you know what to go to your mom about and you know what to go to your dad about.

right you learn this would be a good thing to go to my mom about this would be the kind of thing i go to my dad about republicans and democrats are like that hunters and anglers one's your ma one's your dad this is the i don't want to say the dad stuff this is the one of them stuff this is the one of them stuff right where are we i'm trying to move fast all right here's the potential rub here's a potential rub. Allow for the construction, repair, and maintenance of infrastructure that provides access to federal land for the purpose of outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The second thought, that is followed up by this line. Improve public access to difficult to access federal lands and waters by prioritizing practical access opportunities. It then lists good things. It lists,

including voluntary access easements, land exchanges, cooperative agreements with state and local governments, and other tools that respect private property rights. Here's the only area in all this stuff that could be causing trouble because I would hate for the sentiment here to get hijacked by people who just want more roads. And they'll get those roads any way they can get them. If someone's like, dude, I want to build roads, because I have them. my mind that we're going to do a mine down the road.

Now, like, I'm just like a pro road guy. I look at wilderness is wasted real estate. They might look and go like, oh, sweet. Yeah, that's, I'm going to tie my shit into this. Yeah. Attacking the, like, the federal wilderness area program, like, that's scary. But it's not, I know, if you're, if you're, if you're an eye, that makes me nervous, but there's nothing in here that says that's what's going to happen.

It doesn't have to say it. It's the only, like I said, this is either 100% good news or it's 99% good news. And I said, where to the 1%? That's the sentence that I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Hello.

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But don't wait around. The giveaway ends Monday, October 12, 2026 at 1159 p.m. Here's a good one. Encourage the use of qualified volunteers to manage wildlife populations and invasive species. Great. Put hunters into the game. When you're hiring sharpshooters, to go kill white tails in suburban areas

because the suburban people are afraid of dudes hunting deer with their bows, screw them. Or when they're trying to get mountain goats out of certain parks, you got to jump through all these hoops. All these different programs of like, if you have hunters that want to go do it, let hunters that want to go do it,

do the work rather than paying government agents to go do it. Put the stuff in people's freezers instead of putting it in landfills. Sure. There's some other stuff. There's some great stuff for veterans in here. that permit the use of traditional lead ammunition.

Oh, did I miss that one? I'm assuming that's directed at like wildlife refugees where you can't. But you're ahead of me. No, no. I mean, I know. You jumped, you jumped way ahead,

I thought. Authorize the use of assistive technology on access trails and hunting locations, okay? Handicap restrictions. Like, a veteran that's a double amputee having access opportunities through when people say assistive technology

that is technology is meant to support handicapped individuals who's going to argue against that it's good news it's good news for veterans and others permit the use of traditional lead ammunition and tackle pretty much yes pretty much yes the fishing sinker thing is a joke

the fishing sinker thing is a joke there are some areas where there are some areas in condor recovery areas, there are some areas where we should not be using lead ammunition and condo recovery areas. Because when you have such a small population of birds, a couple of those birds dying from lead is a population level impact. Where you have a demonstrable population level impact from consuming lead, lead should be looked at and restrictions should be considered where it's population level impact. But if it's a wildlife refuge in Nebraska that says you got to use non-lead

ammunition for deer hunting. Yeah. That's kind of dumb. When no one can point to any population level impact. And be like, cars hit more hawks than get killed by lead ammunition, but we're not talking about banning cars. There's another one. It's just really like, this must be someone, this is, there's one of these in here that's

got to be that someone's just got a case of the ass about something. Listen to this one. This has got to be coming from some guy that had like someone's ear. And he's like, you know what burns my ass? because listen to this one. Agriculture, the Secretary of Agriculture shall review high demand forest service administered river access lotteries

and shall initiate the reform of such lotteries to prioritize U.S. citizens, including prior unsuccessful applicants, and prohibit the use of automatic computer entries into the lottery. Amen. It's ridiculous that Americans are waiting in line for permits to float their own rivers and those permits

are going to foreigners. 100%. But it's just again, it's got to be someone with just there's some dude that can't get a Grand Canyon permit. And he's like, how in the world is some dude from Paris

floating down that river? That's what I'm saying about Craitors of the Moon. There's some guy who knows about a 400-inch bowl like one of a dozen elk that lives there who's like, you know, we should actually allow some hunting there. It burns his ass. He's going to get that that wopper bull.

But I still like that stuff. There's one about, it took me a long time. Max, the one and only Max, barred the smartest man in the duck swamps. Track this one down for me. There's one about season setting for migratory waterfowl. It's largely a clerical issue.

I don't want to, he reached out to some contacts, and one of the contacts, I didn't tell him I was going to read his thing. I'm not going to say his name. One of Max's contacts in the duck conservation world said to Max this morning, my understanding is this just cuts out. Basically, the way, I don't want to read his thing because it's long, basically migratory bird seasons always get canceled every year. And they have to be reset every year. and it creates this whole clerical issue. It's cleaning up a clerical. It's cleaning up a season setting

behind the scenes paperwork issue that isn't going to be felt by waterfow hunters. It's just an annoyance. Here's a big one, though. Maybe the, nah, not the biggest one. Maybe the biggest one. Within a year of this order,

I don't know why it takes a year. Within a year of this order, the Secretary of the Interior shall encourage state fish and wildlife agencies to promote and expand Sunday hunting opportunities on state and federal lands. Amen. That stuff's a joke. I understand it as states have taken steps to loosen Sunday hunting restrictions.

There can be a lag where those restrictions are sort of encoded into land management agencies and a state might loosen and the federal or state management agency might not follow suit quickly. like their Sunday restrictions stay after the states goes away but that stuff has to be just like flat out Sunday hunting restrictions just have to go away they will they're going away growing a new generation of hunters Interior's got no Secretary of Labor

Secretary of Education they got 90 days to clean up messes they've created about federal education funding for archery and hunting hunting hunting and hunter education programs in schools. One of the things they're talking about is this whole like, this whole anti-gun thing is created this problem that like you can't train kids

and hunter safety in schools because somehow something to do a dumb thing with guns. Yeah. That's got to go away. I took my hunter's ad was through my school. It was very easy to do. You did hunters ed through school. Within 180 days of the order,

identify opportunities, incentives to assist states and cultivating hunting traditions among American youth and veterans. And again, opportunities in adaptive sports grant program. So, yes, helping disabled handicapped individuals have hunting opportunities. Promoting robust game species populations. All kinds of good stuff in here. Helping people, helping landowners with voluntary removal or reductions of barriers to wildlife movement and habitat connectivity. You got a rancher. He's got antiquated

fencing. He's got whatever. It's a barrier to wildlife habitat. He wants it cleaned up. Doesn't have the means to get it cleaned up. Let's get it cleaned up. Reduction of invasive species, habitat degradation, disease and other factors contributing to population declines. So just getting after it on taking care of some of the stuff. The details are missing. The money is missing, but the directives are clear. The directives are good. We'll see if it gets carried out. Targeted management.

Here's a tricky one. I'm surprised that like the Guardian and Washington Post aren't having a total shit fit about this one. Targeted management of predators, competing species and other population limiting factors. Okay. Use of prescribed fire, vegetation management, water development,

grazing, agricultural practices, and appropriate habitat management tools and seeking voluntary agreements with landowners and agriculture producers around habitat improvements. There's a big thing about increasing wild game donation. It's just not my thing. That one's way cool. I eat that stuff.

What's that? That one's way cool. Okay. Tell everybody about it. Well, they promote that wild game should be given to schools and fed the kids. Yeah, emergency, emergency food assistance program. Yeah, that would help with the white-tailed deer overpopulation issue. That's what they talk about in the next one.

Okay. No, you're right. It does. I'm sorry. I should have been more enthusiastic. Because even the words are carefully chosen. They're saying use Pittman-Robertson funds to manage hyper-abundant populations of wildlife, especially white-tailed deer, through activities that facilitate the donation and processing of wild game for consumption in schools and food banks. Okay. You're right. I'll just get toward the end. I'm very aware of how much time I've burned up. That's good stuff. I just think it's like a creative thing. A lot of this is like, it feels kind of common sense. Like yeah, it should have always been that way. And this one's like,

what were those sharpshooters do? What has happened to the meat from the sharpshooters? Probably nothing. This is fun. And as much as in these areas that have hyperabundant white tail populations to the point where it's causing habitat degradation and disease transmission, the more you can lubricate the wheels for people to get those deer off the landscape and could put to good use. Sure. You're right. I don't know why I poo-pooed it. And again, the cost of publications or shall be borne by the department of interior commerce had to pay for the other email interior pays for this email cool on to the wolf desk take my glass um we hit molly's pack i don't know how long ago was that month ago a couple weeks ago um molly's pack is uh yellowstone

National Park's last original Wolf Pack from the introduction that occurred. Their lineages from the original introduction in the mid-90s. I don't want to get into it, but... Okay. Let me at least get through this part. Molly's Pack is mostly... They left. Months ago, they left and went on to public land in the Shoshone National Forest.

Five adults, five pups. and the Shoshone National Forest and the Absorca range. They're named after a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Molly Beattie who died of cancer during that original introduction. And everyone was worried.

They left that their hunters were going to get them. Wolf addicts are very up in arms that Wyoming should somehow change their wolf hunting regularly. to like carve out exceptions for Molly's pack. People were going crazy about it. I got a butt in.

I got a butt in. Okay. Can you imagine how stupid it is to say, oh, Bob the Elk is over there. We need to change the state's hunting rules so that nothing happens to Bob the Elk. Yep. Yep. Oh, I'm like, for sure, it was, it was crazy. It would never happen. No. It's like ridiculous.

Anyway, they're mostly back in the park. Five adults, five pups were about six months old. And that's when they're like old enough to kind of cruise and travel with the adult wolf. So they're back in there. The worry from the wolf advocates was that Wyoming's wolf hunting season opened on September 15th and they were still kind of out there outside. of the park. These, it's interesting to me that they're quick, these wild, there's wolf out, because very quick to point out, it comes up all the time that Molly's pack matriarch is 12 years old. So, like, one of the oldest

wolves on record, but for some reason that makes them even more special. She's walking dead. Right. She's two and a half times older than the average lifespan of a wolf. So cool for her But I don't think You know you carve out exceptions

For animals based on how old they are Yeah be like it's like Biden should stay present Because he's so old So The local hunt area Do we have that map? Yeah there it is So they were in the Clarks Fork

Wolf Hunt area in Sunlight Basin Reach It's four wolf limit within days and got shut down. So that, you know, they went back in the park. They made it back without getting killed. I didn't get the picture, but in an article I read, there was a picture of the trailhead in Sunlight Basin packed with hunters, horse trailers. Like, they were in there looking for them for sure. Yeah. Because that one dude was offering bounties on hunters. Well, no, no. There was the other dude who, who like, put a

Bounty on Polly. Publicly said he is going after the matriarch. He's gonna get the mate, which I thought was kind of weird. Um. Are you serious? Like you feel like dudes were like, but it was also general big game or not, it was archery season. Yeah. But like it was packed.

Like, yeah, I'm not saying it's not true. Right, right, right. I believe, I believe you. So, um, the Wyoming Fish and Game Agency, they like to point out that wolf hunting is a notoriously difficult pursuit on average Wyoming's hunters devote about 500

days of effort per animal they kill which I mean there's 500 days worth of hunter effort for every wolf that gets killed like so that means like you're spending how many years trying to get one because you're not hunting 500 days and no that's not you're reading that wrong oh I got you five so 500 hunters one day

or yeah like 500 days so if you look up all the days of hunter effort yep and all the wolves killed you have five like hunters collectively are spending 500 days a field for every wolf killed um however statewide um 10 of the 22 wolves that can be killed in the trophy management area that surrounds the park um they they were killed in the first week of the season um so they they got after it pretty quick. But no one got this big famous wolf. No one got her or kids or brothers or her sisters. So if they stay in the park, they're off limits. But who knows, they may run into trouble if they wander at. I had said it on the show. And then I saw it quoted in the Idaho statesman or something where it was like,

man, I don't, like Wyoming can't capitulate, but I bet this. And I was like, I hope those wolves go back where it came from. just to avoid all the BS. Yeah, it would be like national level craziness if it did happen. It'd be like that cease of the lion program all over again, man. Right. Yeah. Right.

You know, and if one of the, if one gets shot near the border of the park, you know, maybe that won't be such a big deal. But we'll see what happens. If a collared one gets shot, it's going to, people are going to raise hell about it. So there you go. that that kind of saga is kind of over for right now yeah we'll talk about it again in like nine months yeah yeah we're going from yellowstone national park all the way to pennsylvania yeah and we're going to talk about elk that were introduced to pennsylvania from yellowstone national park oh what a set high a little detail there man um michael scbarla of portminton

of Pennsylvania killed a big old giant bull elk. My goodness, did he. The elk was an 8 by 8 typical that scored 400 and green. It green scored 428 inches. This this elk was taken on September 15th during the archery season. And he shot it with a crossbow. And it's potentially, well, it, I say potentially because it's green scored, hasn't hasn't had the time to dry yet.

but it's going to be the new it's not going to shrink 50 inches the last did the previous holder get it with a bobo or was he using a crossbow? I don't know that but the previous he shattered that dude yeah the previous archery

state record for Pennsylvania is 381 little over 381 which this is green scored at 428 the by the time it shrinks I don't know how I don't know how many inches it loses when it shrinks but it's going to blow that out of the water and it's going to beat the number one typical firearms category, elk too, which is 407 inches.

Wow. Which is surprising that it's only 407 for firearms. We were talking earlier that the next world record could definitely come out of Pennsylvania. Yep. But so for the archery season this year, there was only, what was it? There's 15 bull tags for the archery season were issued to 50,000 lottery applicants. God, that's why I don't draw it. Yeah, that's why.

I was wondering why I don't draw that. Phil, hit the next photo. So this is, I showed that one earlier. You got a comment on his apparel, Steve? I already said, get a onesie on. Dude, that's the greatest suit in the world. Yeah. This photo was sent to me through a friend.

that this one was I think kind of making its rounds but yeah giant elk oh but Phil if you go to the video oh sure this is a bowl that I got

trail cam video of on my family's property damn that's the world which I think will blow that one out of the water it is on this trail camera that Seth has set up on his grandpa's place it is nonstop and his grandpa's been putting since they brought elk into the state.

Look at that thing. It was two weeks ago. Yeah. Dude, it's just like you can't keep track all these bulls coming through there. That's called Pond Cam. Yep, that's the Pond Cam. But yeah, those bulls come in there to wallow and drink. Seth gets videos of them coming and just ripping bugles in front of the camera,

like insane bulls that you'll never see ever. I know. I'm waiting right now for a video to come through of a bull that's just bugling right in front of the camera that I was hoping would come through before. for yeah like for this a bunch of like I don't know 390s 400 inch bowls

yep but this bull was killed in center county which is same county where that trail cam video was

and oh let's see he was it was so this guy's a professor of Penn State he didn't have a whole lot of time and drew a tag of a lifetime so he went with a guide

trophy rack lodge and they hunted for a couple days, ran into several bulls bugling the one morning, and this bull ended up coming in, he shot his 40-some yards with the crossbow. Dude, I'd give up two of my kids for one of them, which ones, man? I don't want to get into that.

Yeah. I don't want to feel bad. I'd give up two of my kids. I'd keep one, give two away from one of the milk tags. Um, yeah, and you know, the, the general or, you know, the regular firearm season is yet to happen in Pennsylvania. So I'd be curious to see if this one gets, this record gets broken. It's possible. Yep.

Waring a vintage camel pattern that I can't identify. I've been trying to, uh, reverse Google image search end for like 10 minutes and I can't come up with who the maker that is. Dude, it's a great one. It's a great one. You know, it'd be sweet if he gave us that onesie for the auction house about it. Oh, yeah. That'd be great. Like, if you're listening, that might be the only came he owns.

If you're listening, no, here's the deal. If you're listening, if you send us that onesie for the auction house of oddities, we will send you a complete, we'll send you a complete cold weather and complete warm weather kit. If you'll send us that onesie for the auction house of oddities. Yeah, that would be great. I need to identify what this pattern is. So if you're listening, I have a deal for you. All right, we're going to end the show.

with an interview with Montana represented former Navy SEAL Ryan Zinky who's going to talk about, he came into the studio the other studio and we sat and talked about something called a river runs through it act

and the conversation mostly gets into the question of how can you find compromise solutions for vexing land management issues. So check that out.

See you next week. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Hello. My gosh. Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free IHare Radio app. Get the blood going up. Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like the Tom Green Farmcast

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All right, folks, if you are a whitetail hunter, you're going to want to hear this. Right now, we are running the ultimate white tail giveaway, and it's packed with over $23,000 in prizes, including the new Zulu 6 binoculars from Sig, a 6-5 creed more from Sig, Moltery Edge 3 cameras, case knives, an arc 30 bow from Matthews, and a $1,000 gift card from First Life and their new whisper-down jacket and pant and a whole other pile of gear from other partner brands. And that's not all. You can also win a chance to join me, Mark Kenyon, for a fully guided muzzleloader White Tail Hunt at Running Water Hunting, hosted by outfitter Jordan Budd. This is a five-day, four-night December hunt during the muzzleloader season. One of the most

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The giveaway ends Monday, October 12, 2026 at 1159 p.m. All right, everybody, we're jumping over to a conversation with Ryan Zinky. So Ryan Zinky is a congressman for Western Montana, former secretary of the interior, retired Navy SEAL commander. Throughout his career, this guy has been very tangled up in public lands issues, outdoor issues. He's joining us here in the twilight of his congressional career, which ends what this January? It does. And you're a free man in January? I am free of this vocation.

Free of this vocation, January. We had Representative Zinke on before. He was Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnerships. He won the James D. Range Award in 2025, and I was present there as a board member. And actually was there to help hand him the award. And that was around his work on public lands advocacy during some important times around public lands. This year, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, excellence in advocacy.

That's 2026 reward and award and Safari Club International's legislature legislator of the year award in 2006. So garnering a lot of recognition for his work on public lands issues from the hunting and angling communities. And what we're going to talk about right now is a thing that I've been reading about. I don't fully totally understand it all, but it's been passed around a bit, is the a river runs through it act absolutely tell me about this and i and i know from that this issue is a long has had a long simmer it has had a long issue over 20 years kind of making around sea lee lake the swan big bearer wilderness scapegoat and then then it combined the lincoln area

that they've been working about 13 years okay and this This is a made in Montana solution. You know, and we live in a political environment where it's so partisan. We fight about everything. But in Montana, you know, our public lands, the debate has always been on how to manage it, between the mirrors that, you know, wilderness,

and let's say the pin shows with multiple use. And then you have extremes on both sides on it. But this is a solution that looks at, landscape and understands the importance of the outdoors. The reason why we live in the West is because we have outdoor experience. And we were given the outdoors experience largely from the great ones. Roosevelt and show and mirror looked at the landscape and said this needs to be protected and cultivated for the next generation. So what this bill does is it takes a look at wilderness areas, It takes a look at the wilderness study areas.

And when you have the wilderness society in the same room as the snowmobiles, you got the backpackers, you got the outfitters, you got the logging guys. And they all came together and said, you know what? The outdoor experience is different for all of us,

but all of us understand the importance of it. So can we look at better ways of management? And so we had Tracy Manning, from the wilderness society, and we had the snowmobile guys, sitting in the same room, said, you know what, that's worked together. From the snowmobile perspective,

they want public access, and they want corridors rather than going to point aid and turning around and coming right back the same trail. So they want trails connect. Well, you know, so do a lot of people. So to a lot of people that do, you know, skiing and hiking and et cetera. And on our forests themselves,

I think there was a concurrence that we shouldn't allow, them to burn down every year all the time. Can we manage our forest better? So from a logging perspective, you know, you can go in and harvest timber. You can cut a road in temporarily if you're going to do a prescribed burn. Because a prescribed burn, so it doesn't get out of hand, requires safety equipment. And so when you do it, you do it right with the right science, the right people, the right equipment, you get the burn done.

and then you can remove the road if necessary. But a lot of it is focuses on public access. So what were the, but on that thing there, what were the Wilderness Society people in the room for? Well, because we looked at areas. Remember, when a wilderness study area. Yeah.

That's what I want to talk about. This could confuse people, but I'm sure you could explain it. Yeah, a wilderness study area is administrative in, you know, a category, not by Congress, but it's a wilderness study area administratively put in place, but you have to manage it as if it is a wilderness. Yeah.

And Congress is the only one that can designate a wilderness. Yeah. So Congress actually is going to do their job and look at some wilderness study areas that were probably, well, according to this bill, they looked at them carefully. They should not be designated as a wilderness. But you can do backpacking,

you can do outfitting, you can cut a truck, trail. You can manage the forest better than letting them burn down. There's areas around the scapegoat and around the Bob Marshall that makes sense. The wilderness study areas, that's permanently put this in part of a wilderness because that's what wilderness is for. Yeah, can I butt in on this? Because this is important. I just want to make sure people get people that live outside of the West get this distinction where wilderness with a capital W is like federally designated wilderness. So when we say wilderness, you don't just mean like the woods or the mountains, but like it's a federal designation. And we're going to manage it as a wilderness. No wheels, no combustion engines. There's a lot of

restrictions on a wilderness because primarily lightest touch, let nature take its course. Yeah, but within that, for years now, we've had these study areas. What was the term of? He's a wilderness study areas. Yeah, the study areas, and they're sort of, and I don't know if it would be, if it's how you would describe it, But a lot of the study areas are sort of in limbo. And there are plenty of people who would like to see all the study areas go the other go one way. There are plenty of people who would like to see all of them go to wilderness. And then there are the pragmatic ones who envision that at some point in time there will be some compromises made.

That's right. And they will ease into, they will be moved into the wilderness category or they'll be moved into a more general national forest category. And so here and there now and then you see little chunks of this puzzle get resolved because the limbo can't last. It should not last. But it should be based on, again, this is a Montana-made solution. So you had, you know, the local ranchers, you had the timber folks, you had the snowmobile,

you had the wilderness people, you had the recreational people all come together and say, you know, we honor the landscape of these two important areas. So how do we make sure that we can harvest timber? How can we make sure the previous wilderness study areas? How do we make sure that they're protected and manage? Because there's a reason why they became a wilderness study areas to study, to determine whether or not they meet the requirements and conditions to actually be a wilderness. Congress makes that decision.

But out in the West, what can happen is you have a superintendent that puts something in a wilderness study area, you know, designation, and then it stays there forever. Yeah. And people get uneasy about how it's going to break. Well, and there's restrictions. So you won't be able to take a vehicle in. You won't be able to take a snowmobile in. You won't take a wheel in. Or if you were to do a prescribed burn, you can't put the safety equipment in.

or if you're going to do trail maintenance, you're not going to be, you're not going to allow to use a chainsaw, for instance. You know, so you'd have to do a buck saw. It takes a lot of buck sawing, you know, to clear a trail after a windstorm, as you know. Yeah. So what this does is it looks at a landscape, you know, view.

It brings corridors for wildlife movement back and forth. It looks at trailheads to make sure the trails connect between being the different categories of land. but it really is a solution. It's not perfect, but there's 20 years of effort of people working together. And how do you break through the partisan lines? Well, you find something that you're passionate about on both sides.

And then you get together and then you have to work through trust because now you're working together for a common goal and you're going to have to trust your groups in there to make sure they're articulate what's important to them, but also they're wanting to give a little. And in every case, in this bill, which is, you know, river runs through it, that paints a picture as well, is that there's something for everybody. Someone gave up a little in order to gain a lot. Yeah. And again, it's about understanding how important the outdoor legacy is. And I think this can be a model for naturally for you know nationally use as there are issues in Utah there's issues in Idaho in the

west there's always issues between a lot of it's how to manage our lands I think this is a pretty good model of how to constructively get to a solution that benefits everybody with it with this with this arrangement as you as you're talking to people about it you got guys like me and I would have been if if if I was emperor of the the nation I would have just from my perspective, I would have said, like, I'm going to take all experimental wilderness and I'm going to make it all wilderness because I'm a big wilderness guy. You got other people who would have wanted to go the other way and ditch it all. If you look at the, in striking this compromise, who do you feel of the people that are still not happy? Which is just margins.

But who is most not happy? I would say most not happy the people that believe the federal government shouldn't have a federal estate at all okay uh and then on the other side is is that public lands uh are really not for the public there for other species yeah uh you have those two extremes yeah now you know and each would like their position i articulated differently but from your yeah i understand but i'll get i gave you an example uh the wilderness society uh on a wilderness study area uh looked at it and said no this is going to be wilderness, this is our position. The snowmobiler said, you know what?

We would like to transit across this that connect our trails. Now, those are two different views. You know what happened? They came together. Yeah. They said, you know what? This is a great corridor to bring back and forth. And oh, by the way, this other area, we're going to designate that and connect it to

the Bob Marshall because it makes sense to protect that watershed. Yeah. And then on designation of, let's say, outfitting, well, outfitters need to go in there, but they also need a trail clear. So they can use trail clearing method, you know, during the season, all right, and to make sure that the trail in public access is there. And that's an important part of it looking at the landscape. But at the end of the day, you know, these two areas are special. you know, Lewis and Clark had much the same view in a lot of these different areas. And now what we have done is we've looked at what's important, how to manage it

and make sure that your children and your children's children can have the same landscape view that was given to us that Lewis and Clark shared. Understood. I think that when it comes to the kind of compromise you're talking about, kind of the best way was articulated to me down the road. And this isn't so much the particulars of this arrangement, but just this idea of compromise would be people would look at the wilderness study areas. And you'd be like, well, why not just wait?

Why not just wait until the right moment when they can all be wilderness? And people go, you might wait for that moment and wind up, you wind up in the opposite moment, right? Like waiting isn't a guarantee that it's going to go how you want it. And so people are, you know, I've had a lot of people explain. to me, a great compromise now where everybody can have a voice is better than the alternative of trusting that you're going to hit where it's going to go all your way. Because then it might go all the other way.

So if we can find opportunities to find a solution that is acceptable to a broad group, like there's an argument that those are the moments to seize upon. Well, and, you know, again, we were given what we have. I think the challenge the next 100 years is how to manage it. Yeah. Next 100 years is looking at wildlife corridors to make sure winter ranges connect to summer ranges. Correct. To make sure that you have movement, but also public access.

And on some of these wilderness study areas, they're managed for a healthy forest. But the consensus was all groups left and right and middle, you know, don't want to see these catastrophic forest fires, you know, burn, the scale they're burning and the heat. I mean, in some cases, these forests are burning so high, you're not going to see a regrowth of forests for generations. Yeah. They have sterilized the soil. Is that really necessary?

Well, let's look at the American conservation ethic. Best science, best practices, greatest good, longest term. That's the American conservation ethic. So how do we get there so we don't have these catastrophic fires? Well, we'll look at the geography. And you say, you know what? This area needs to be thin. Do we want to do it mechanically?

Do we want to do it harvesting timber or is a prescribed burn more appropriate? But a prescribed burn, let's make sure it's a prescribed burn and not out of control burn. Yeah. Like we did with a Wheeler home, you know, in the Glacier Park and he had, you know, a recent fire in the Grand Canyon, which burned up, you know, historic, you know, sites and buildings. I don't think we want to go there again. So we can use best science and best practices

and come up a solution so we have a healthy forest in those areas that need to be protected in a different degree in wilderness, lightest possible footprint. You can still hunt. You know, you can graze in a lot of wilderness. But sometimes grazing isn't going to reduce the load of dead and dying timber and fuel.

So maybe a prescribed burn is more appropriate. it again when you do a prescribed burn you should do the right safety equipment to make sure it stays in that prescribed box yeah and doesn't get out of hand that may require a temporary road to be put in that temporary road would be removed after the prescribed burn at least so you can get the equipment in there or evacuate you know the the the firefighters are in the ground you know doing that burn so tell tell me how something like this tell me how something like this works from this point. Because you go in, you go in and there's this long simmering issue, people want it resolved, you talk to the local people and get these different user groups

that you're talking in, and you're like, I understand you ideally would want this and you on the RISI would ideally want this. Here's a workable solution that addresses everybody's concerns. Then what? You give it a name, you know?

Well, you put in the bill. interesting as a representative. You represent. So when you represent, you not only represent the people that voted for you, but you also represent the people that didn't vote for you. You represent the people who will never vote for you. So it's important as you represent people, because it is about people, you listen.

And when such a diverse group of people, again, from the snowmobilers and motorcycle guys to the wilderness to timber guys, to outfitters, They're all saying the same beat, the same message. You know, it's time to then take those elements, and when you put it into a bill, what does that mean? That means you look at the legal review, you look at what other laws it affects. So you put it in a bill that's ready to pass.

And in this particular case, it's more Montana-centric. So how do you get it passed? Well, there's two senators. We have two congressmen. You know, all this should get behind the bill, and all of us should convince our peers that this is important to them too. Because public land.

That's the part that seems hard to picture is that you, you then got to go to D.C. And there's 98 other senators that aren't really aware of the issue. And there's 300 and what I don't want. And a couple of them likely will be opposed to anything that's then federal land other than divest. Sure. And then you got, I don't even know the number anymore. Hundreds of people that are otherwise unfamiliar. And you got to say, hey, can I get everybody's attention on this thing? Well, you're exactly right. You didn't know about till yesterday or today. And then make time for it. Well, I'll give you an example. Never in my life did I ever think that public lands would be at risk of being sold. The argument and the debate has always been about how to manage it. But never divesting on scale.

Yeah. Well, it came up this Congress. There was an effort that nearly succeeded in selling off a lot of our public lands without, you know, public input, review, all those type of things. And, you know, taking a step back, why? You know, I thought it would be easy. I led the charge to save it. And I thought it was going to be like going up San Juan Hill. I had a bunch of guys behind me, a little thin.

Yeah. And because, you know, public lands is different from different people. If you live on the East and you say, we're not talking about our national parks. Don't worry, our national parks are free of this. Totally different sense. They're protected. Well, if you're living in the East, a lot of your public access and public lands is parks. Because they don't have the huge, you know, tracks of BLM land, you know, Bureau of Land Management land or U.S. Forest Service land.

So primarily, your public, your outdoor experience is national parks. Well, that's great. But when you're out west, national parks are a part of the outdoor experience and certainly not the whole. In Montana, you have more forest service than you do parkland. And when you add the CMR, Charles M. Russell and BMLand, a lot of Montana's land is not in a park category. Yeah.

And, but I was surprised at, at how few initially picked up the charge on, on the look, we're not going to sell our public land. Yeah. Now, in, you know, truth, when I was secretary, I divested, I added, I subtracted, I exchanged. But the process was public input, looked at it. If a school needed to expand a gym, let's say, in New Mexico, okay, that 40 acres, makes more, sense for a school or there's a runway that need a little more runway because the jets are bigger. Okay, but those are, there's a case by case.

Yeah, and there's a process for that. There's a whole process that looks at whether it's subsurface and Indian rights and all those type of things. But I think our public lands, you know, this is, I think, why, as it turns out, I came back to Congress for this purpose. And God had a mission for me, and the mission in this case was to lead the charge to make sure our public lands, you know, and the next generation are as strong as they were in the last generation. When you, there are not, there are some very vocal Republicans who are generally antagonistic to the public estate. Like, philosophically, they're troubled by that the federal government would own so much land or own such a heavy proportion. certain states.

Often they will express a frustration about that on these places management tools, and that can mean a bunch of things of different people, they will often express that management isn't occurring. They're not being properly managed. Right. If you look at a solution...

That's legitimate, by the way, frustration. If you look at, I guess the question is, how honest are they? Because if you look at what you're doing here, where you're, you're, you're looking at this river runs through it act and you're looking at management issues and you're looking at fire mitigation issues timber harvest timber reduction right does that really do you think that you'd have some colleagues who would look and be like yes that's what i mean or do you feel that they're that they're just using that as a red herring well uh let's say example of liby montana

you're in a sea of trees as far as the eye can see and you can't harvest a one of them lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit judges that would side on for grizzly bears even though grizzly bears have recovered yeah they like cuts but they just they they they they don't look at timber as a legitimate purpose in the woods yes and in this case we had the timber guys coming to look you know those those trees are going to come out of the woods one way or another. You can mechanically bring them out. You can prescribe burn or you can have these catastrophic burns. Yeah.

So wouldn't it be better? It's going to happen. Wouldn't it be better to manage how to remove the timber where, look at the interfaces where you might have a fire, thin that area out? Because when the forest burns, I fish, you fish, you know, a lot of sediment will go in those streams. And that's not good. Yeah.

And the habitat that we're all trying to preserve burns the ground, and that's not good either. Yeah. And in some cases, these forests are so hot it sterilizes the soil. Generationally, you won't have recovery of canopy. Yeah. And you get, to add to that, you get situations where you have this massive monoculture and you don't have edge habitats and all these other things. Absolutely.

Then you have disease that runs through, if it's a, you know, mono tree out there, you have disease it affects a tree, then the whole forest is going to go. Yeah. You know, but there is frustration out there. They watch our public access to be, you know, diminished. They look at the forest burning up year after year after year, lack of management, sometimes lack of leadership. And I understand the frustration.

You know, if you're on a county road and all of a sudden you have BLM where the lights on and you're thinking, well, there must be a lost kid someplace, or maybe it's a bear they're going to warn you about. no, they're going to give me a speeding ticket on a county road. You know, a lot of people, deservedly so, are a little upset about that. Yeah. But I give the analogy of, okay, you have a hotel, and it's terrible management. Well, you don't sell the hotel.

Yeah. You get new management, and you get a, you get to construct a way to manage your forest, you know, back to where they're healthy again. I think everyone wants to walk through a forest is healthy. Some force walking through should be the lightest. touch because nature has this bounty and glory. So, you know, that's why we have wilderness. Now, should we let, you know, Bob Marshall burn down the ground all the time?

And, well, you know, that's a discussion that we need to have on fire management on it. In this particular case, we looked at, for instance, wilderness study areas and said, you know what, a road or a prescribed burn or management of trails, I think makes more sense. making sure that there's a parking lot someplace where people can park and have access to go into. That makes sense. In some cases, some of the roadless rules, should it be a roadless rule? Well, let's look at it, but let's look at it case by case. Let's not do these broad canvases of we're just going to put in roads or we're going to remove roads in every inch of federal estate.

Now, let's use best practices, greatest good, longest term, but good science. Why do you need the road in there? Should it be during hunting season? Should it have a covert? Should it be for fire? Should we maintain it in case of a fire? All those things need to be considered to make the right decision. Oh.

Can I do one last super quick question? Yep. We'll do as quick as possible. Chris, what's going to happen? Is this thing going to pass? Are you going to come up for a vote and it'll pass? Look, how about? We have two Navy SEALs.

We had Tim Sheehee, the senator, myself. We don't, we don't give up. But I think this has enough momentum behind it and enough of passionate people that have worked, you know, 20 years. Yeah. I'm fairly confident the end of the day, this president or next will sign a river run through it. Great. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for explaining that.

Love to hear from, you know, someone that's been involved for such a long time on natural resources issues and explaining all that process people come together I got to tell you you're knocking out of the park you deliver a message that's got to be delivered and people are enthusiastic about you and your effort and thanks thanks for being a patron appreciate it I know you got to run so we'll let you go meat eater and best-selling author Brian Burrow present gunfighters

a new podcast series about the American West and the violence that made its most legendary figures infamous. Davis Tutte staggered forward, shouted, boys, I'm killed. And keeled over dead. Listen to gunfighters, starting on September 15th, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.

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