The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 943: Did a 3-Year-Old Really Shoot Another Hunter?

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

Steven Rinella and the MeatEater Crew Discuss: last spring’s Wisconsin turkey hunting tragedy; how to get the right blend with your burger meat; is the snow goose free-for-all coming to an end; a kid gets busted for peddling black market turtles; 14 bears are euthanized in Bozeman thanks to an illegal bait pile; and more! Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTubSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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burger actually do need help and we're here to provide that help we got snow goose news out of maryland and elsewhere the posh mountain what was that yonnie i didn't say anything i thought he sets up dude i was getting people hype for the show now i'm like i literally just scratched my lip now we're like lost the audience. Bring him back. Bring him back, buddy. The posh mountain town of Bos Angeles, Pilates capital of America, where we're sitting right now, just lost 14 black bears that the

state had to euthanize because some dude was running a seemingly non-hunting bait pile. That titillates him. And more. But first off, let's dig into the youth turkey tragedy with the one and only Pat Durkin. Thanks for joining, Pat. Pat. Well, you bet. Thanks, Steve. Can you quickly remind, we talked about this.

Can you quickly remind people at a very, like, give a very quick overview of what happened last spring in terms of the initial news that came out, right? Just like the basics with the ages, because we commented on the story, but all we had was some basic numbers. So can you recap those numbers? Sure. This happened during the state's annual youth turkey season. It's a two-day season that starts mid-April. It was done in Racine County, which is just south of Milwaukee. And Racine County also borders on Lake Michigan.

So it's really the far southeast county in Wisconsin. It happened on a public land. It's about two square mile area. and it involved a deputy with the Racine County Sheriff's Department. And he was, the guy is 35 years old. And apparently he was mentoring, he said, his three-year-old daughter. Oh, I didn't know that it was a daughter. He was his daughter.

And he was carrying a 12-gauge shotgun and blind calling, just apparently walking around calling. He's never taken a hunter education course, but he's a military veteran. And in Wisconsin, we exempt veterans from needing to take hunter education. He later told investigators they really had not hunted much before this incident. And he was usually hunting with his friends, but that day he was hunting by himself. he was also um was another interesting thing about this is well pat could i cut in real quick do you mind just laying out do you mind just laying out the very just for people that haven't

heard our coverage before yeah do you mind laying out the original story just the the cleanest most bare bones version of the original story you can think of yeah yeah yeah which would be that a three year old during youth turkey season i'll do it then you can dive in okay Well, I'm asking for a second time. Go ahead, Pat Durkin's side behind him. I'm sorry, Steve. But, yeah, basically, a man took his daughter out hunting. She was being mentored, apparently.

He lined the shot up and then had her touch the trigger when he told her to shoot. And inadvertently, he had mistaken movement 40 yards away for a turkey. and he ended up shooting a man who was there mentoring his seven-year-old son. It turns out this man was actually a co-worker, a fellow deputy in Racine County, the sheriff's department. And the shot hit these guys pretty hard. You know, the man had his arm around his son, up like this, apparently around his shoulders.

And so that got caught some of the shot, but the boy got the worst of it. He took multiple shots, pellets into the head and upper neck and back area and ended up in the hospital for a few days. And later, like in June, doctors removed every pellet they could from the boy, but he still had to this day has one pellet in his brain, one pellet in his skull, and one pellet in his spine. and the father, though, is doing well. He had 12 pellet wounds, including some of his arm and left hand, but basically his left side of his body got hit.

When this story was originally reported, for many months, the only details that were out there was that a person mentoring a three-year-old child, that the three-year-old child had shot another pair of hunters. And then you've followed, this story and have uncovered these other details. Where did you learn the, for instance? Well, we had this original, we had this original question of how, how capable is a three-year-old of even aiming a gun? And we were, we were even wondering, like, three-year-olds still soil themselves on a regular basis. So how is a three-year-old capable of wielding a, was it a 12-gauge or 20-gauge shotgun?

Is it 12 gauge? So how is a 3-year-old even shooting a 12-gauge shotgun? Right. Where did you learn this detail that the mentor was holding the shotgun and the kid's job was to reach over and pull the trigger? And does that even warrant, is that even count as a mentored home? Right. Well, this is where it gets really interesting, Steve, is that the state does not really specify what it takes to be a mentored and what it takes to be a mentored. and what it takes to be a mentored situation.

And so like this case, it said right in the initial report of the incident was that the guy had rested the shotgun on a log and he had aimed it and that his daughter was then instructed to touch the trigger and basically triggered the shot when he said so. And, you know, I'm like you. I have grandkids. I have had my own daughters. And I have a hard time understanding how any three-year-old.

would even comprehend what they're even doing at that point. Oh. So are they, in this case, are they looking into, was that even, does that even count? Well, you know, all the criminal complaint does is state what the charges are. And this guy has been charged with four felonies. Okay. Two felonies per victim. And it's basically, let me see just real quickly,

it's second degree reckless injury with use of a dangerous weapon and injury by negligent use of a dangerous weapon, two different counts, you know, one each for, I mean, two each for these victims. And so the guy's facing like up to $70,000 in fines and up to 42 years in prison, and if the terms are all laid out consecutively. So the state obviously is taking this very serious.

I also didn't know it to you. It doesn't really change anything, but I didn't know until you just said it right now that it was his daughter. I just had made this, I had made this assumption. Yeah, initially. Because 90% of hunters are men, I'd made an assumption that it was his boy.

Yeah, initially the Department of Natural Resources and local sheriff's, department did not release details on gender or names, of course. And so all we had at first was that it was two people who had been shot. And you kind of assumed as a father and son who got shot and, you know, it's also shooting. But yeah, as the case got explored and, you know, more information came out than we learned it was a daughter involved. And then in your reporting, you found out some details that these.

It's just crazy, but the shooter and the victim were not strangers. No. No, you know, the initial report was that they assumed these guys did not know each other. But then they learned later that actually they were colleagues, you know, that the shooter had talked to his co-worker, a fellow deputy, about places to hunt nearby. The guy gave him some information, but asked him not to hunt these spots. and I watched some of the camera interviews they did with this guy that came out when a criminal complaint was released. And it sounds like he was under the assumption that this other guy and his son had not stayed in the area that they had left.

Okay. So this guy had shared information with them. Like they knew each other. They had shared information, but they were not out. hunting together by any means. They would have no idea that each other was in the same area. Right. Neither of those guys knew the other guy was anywhere near them.

And, you know, the father and some were watching a field. They did not have any decoys out, but they were calling occasional. The father was calling occasionally. And then what I don't know, what I don't know, and isn't in any of the reports so far, the criminal complaint is whether this guy sneaked in with his daughter and set up on them or if they just happened to be sitting nearby and then spotted this movement after the calling because apparently the shot went off right after this father with his son had been calling and had moved his hand so i'm guessing he was using like a slate call or a box

call or something he told he told investigators that when the shot happened it was this seconds after he had called and he figures it was his hand that was moving that that guy the guy's attention. Sometimes you hear these stories and you just can't make any sense out of it. Here's a guy assuming he wasn't gobbling. Assuming he wasn't gobbling. Right. Right. He's talking about using a slate call.

This hunter is, I mean, get in this guy's head a minute. This hunter is hearing turkey noises. Not only does he think he's aiming at the thing's head. but he's talked him into self I don't think he is thinking he's well yeah but I mean he's also talked himself into thinking that it's a it's a goblin that it's a male turkey

he's a very inexperienced hunter like that's right when our friend Robert Avernathie was shot while turkey hunting and the man that shot him explained to him when you put your well Robert Avernathy when he got shot

by number five shot he was sitting there looking down a hill and lifted his foot up on a stump to kind of lean into the stump. The guy that shot him explained, when you lifted your foot on that stump, it looked just like a gobbler going into strut. Oh. Like people invent stuff in their brain. Yeah.

But what is this guy inventing in his brain? The whole picture. Well, it's a great question, Steve, because he did tell these inventors. investigators that he thought he saw red and blue apparently. And, you know, they checked with these guys, the victims, and neither of them was wearing anything red, blue, or white to resemble a turkey's head. They were wearing camo, but nothing that, you know, we're all taught in hunter education, turkey education, never to wear red, white, or blue out in the field during turkey season.

But from when I could gather watching this recorded interview with the guy, afterward by investigators, he claimed he saw these colors. But, you know, every time you read about hunter accidents like this, the shooter almost always builds things into the scene that just were not there. They get excited and they do, they see things that really aren't there. And apparently the same thing happens in police shootings, you know, where they just see things that in the moment, in the moment, there is at stress, that buck fever,

or whatever you want to call it and it does work on people's imaginations. Oh yeah, because he heard the bird even though he didn't hear a gobbler, he heard a hen most likely calling. Right. And then there was a flash of movement in the brush.

And I still believe that he shot and not his three-year-old daughter. No, I believe that he, I would believe that I would accept that he had her reach over and punch the trigger. maybe yeah he had her positioned apparently like you know apparently like in his lap he was sitting there and had her in the lap but yeah it says read it in every every report of read on this it says he

aimed the shot you know he had the he had the gun against his shoulder basically all she'd do is reach up and push and push on the trigger pat is this deputy still working or has he been suspended or fired he he's on administrative leave you mentioned early on there when I was trying to squeeze out of you the basics that we had already covered there but you were going down the path of mentioning that he had an exemption from Hunter's safety. Yeah.

Can you explain that exemption? Yeah. This is to me one of the intriguing points of this story because it's become kind of a little hot buttoned topic for the hunter education people in Wisconsin. Wisconsin and 15 other states have had this exemption where if a man or person has served basic training in the military, they exempt them from hunter education training.

And the hunter ed people I know who have contacted me about this, they're really upset that Wisconsin ever gave that exemption because they just don't think the basic training we receive in the military qualified. anyone to go hunting. That is just a whole different dynamic involved in teaching someone how to shoot rifles

and various weapons in the military compared to what we see in hunting what we experience out there in the field. I think that it would cover, that is a weird one to me. I think it was, I'm guessing that it's motivated more by trying to do a solid

for veterans and help them and try to be helpful to that. community yeah but i would imagine you you've been through boot camp i have not but i'm guessing that boot camp they're assuming that that you're learning some safe firearm handling practices right but you're not learning but but 90 percent of the curriculum would have no business being in basic training right yeah when i think back steve on the like i was i was in the navy my entire hands-on work and in basic training with firearms was was told

floating around an A303 Springfield with a piece of wood shoved down the barrel, so it couldn't be fired. And then one day, we went to the training. We shot 22 rifles for half the morning, and that was our introduction to firearms. I never fired another gun the Navy until I was out in the ship, and then maybe once a year we got to shoot our M14s and maybe the old 45 caliber handguns. But, you know, there's nothing about things like checking your background and beyond all the basic, you know, Hunter's case and stuff we all learn. Yeah. I wonder if they're going to wind up revisiting that because what you have then is you have a case where it's like a, you have a double problem. I'm not saying it's a problem that you have necessarily a problem that you have a veteran who's skipped Hunter safety out in the woods,

but all of a sudden they're in a position of mentoring another person and you have like a double layer of lack of training. Yeah. To me, to me it's worth discussing because it just, I think it was misguided. I think you're right that it's probably just done as a solid. But gosh,

you look at how the situation unfolded and you can't help but think, well, maybe this guy had a little background in hunter education, which those of us who have taken that course in Wisconsin, It's pretty damn thorough. And it's nice things are stick in your head. I guess the one thing I'd say, too, is that I have a lot more concern with that law,

that exemption than I do with, you know, like we changed our laws about 15 years ago. First, in 2009, they removed a 12-year-old requirement in Wisconsin. And then like eight years later, I think they lowered it at age 10. And then like eight years later, they lowered it to where they just got rid of. of it because like I say, 35 states don't have a age requirement. And, you know, so these things are so unusual with kids getting involved in these mentored shootings. It just seldom happens.

I'm not sure I can see where people get, get bothered by that and not having a age requirement. I mean, I had an age requirement. But gosh, when you see something like this become, it's so unusual. It made, it made news. And when something made makes news, it typically is something very uncommon. So I hate to see it's always running around passing laws every time. One uncommon thing happened. Understood.

Yeah, it's interesting. I've been philosophically supportive of abandoning the really strict age requirement rules. When I was growing up in Michigan, you had to be 14 to rifle hunt deer. I think it's ridiculous. No one waited that long. I didn't wait that long. Yeah. We all started early.

everyone I knew started early that's too much philosophically I've supported abandoning age restrictions if I was going to be in charge of brokering a national compromise and I had to pick a number

that's going to make all kinds of people riled up if I had to pick a number and I was going to set the standard for all 50 states I would say 10 years of age that's what I would pick too yeah I would go 10 and just be like okay we're going to settle it all 50 states right now wham 10 even at i feel like even at six or seven you kids just

don't yet know what they're actually doing this is striking a national compromise if i had to negotiate i would go into the negotiation being i'll settle at 10 i'll settle at 10 so my opening bid might be like how about eight and they'd be like no you can't do eight and i'm like okay 10 and it's a done deal I would settle at 10. Good job, Steve. Master negotiator. Man, Pat Durkin, thanks for coming on. You bet, Steve.

Thanks, Fab. I got to ask, there's an anti-Pat Durkin sign hanging in the background there. Is that because of Deer politics, White Tail politics? No, actually, that goes back to my very, very early days as a sports fighter in 1984. Uh-huh. I was covering a local semi-pro basketball team. And I wrote some columns that the fans didn't like.

And so I got picketed at one of the games. Wow. It'd be like six or eight people picketing me. And they even had little buttons made with that thing. My picture was saying, you know, basically get rid of me. And how I came in the possession of the sign, though, one of my coworkers who was at the game, he ran out to the hallway after they got done picketing me. and he walked up this guy holding that sign and says,

I work with that guy. He's a real asshole. Can I have the sign? And then he brought up to me the next day at my desk. And I, so I built a frame fort and I've had it in my office ever since. That's great. Man,

you got to give him credit for like the civic engagement of that little town. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'd ask you if I could have that when you die, but I don't want to wait that long, man. that could be decades that could be 50 years hey pat before you send it sign it too would you anti pat durkin

signed by pat durgan I used to have one of the buttons too you know you just put on your sweater or jacket but I can't seem to find it lately son of maybe one of my kids took it all right pat we all love you man but thanks thanks for coming on here you bet you bet see you bet see you on

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Available now. All right, folks, if you are a whitetail hunter, you're going to want to hear this. Right now, we are running the ultimate whitetail giveaway, and it's packed with over $23,000 in prizes, including the new Zulu 6 binoculars from Sig, a 6-5 creed more from Sig, Moultry Edge 3 cameras, case knives, an arc 30 bow from Matthews, and a $1,000 gift card from First Light, and their new whisper-down jacket and pant, and a whole other pile of gear from other. partner brands. And that's not all. You can also win a chance to join me, Mark Kenyon, for a fully guided muzzleloader whitetail hunt at running water hunting, hosted by outfitter

Jordan Budd. This is a five-day, four-night December hunt during the muzzleloader season. One of the most exciting times to be in a white tail stand. Lodging in meals are fully included. And the more you spend during the giveaway at first light, the more entries you'll earn for a chance to win the entire prize package. Getting entered is easy. Just head over to the Firstlight contest page at firstlight.com. Fill out the entry form and you're in. Remember, for every $25 spent, you get 10 additional entries. One winner will be selected to win the entire prize pack. But don't wait around. The giveaway ends Monday, October 12, 2026 at 1159 p.m. All right, here's one. We got the meat grinding. Hold up. Hold on.

You're supposed to wait for sound, man. We don't have a good sound. That's pretty good. Is that a new one, Phil? Nope. Same one as always. That's not bad. Our news.

Okay, so here's the other day, one of our guy, one of the egg heads upstairs here at the office. He's not an egg head. One of the tech guys. He's a tech guy. I got two tech issues lined up with him right now. A phone and a computer problem. He's like, get after it. Hunter, too.

Listen, I know. Listen, I was joking, man. I know. He just told me a great story about getting a cowlid's bone era. Um, anyways, I didn't mean to say that. I was joking. Great guy upstairs. Great guy upstairs came to me and he says, hey man, we just made a ground meat, a meat grind calculator. And I said, what kind of idiot needs that? He goes, well, what do you mean? And I said, well, I can just do it in my head right now. And I realized that for my entire life, if I've done it wrong, where if, if I bet you that 99% of people would make the same problem. That's how I always do it. If I had 100 pounds, let's say I have 100 pounds of deer meat.

And I want a 80-20 blend. Okay, I want an 80-20 blend. I have 100 pounds of deer meat. Well, any idiot would know. 20% that you put in 20 pounds. Because that's not right. that gives you a 16.7% blend. I've been doing that my entire life.

Wow. Yeah, it would have been easier for you if you were just every time done 80 pounds of meat. You got to think about the total. That's where I was off. But I was telling him how dumb he was to make the calculator. No, so I'm looking at it right now. So if you did, if you did 100 pounds of meat,

it's really easy. You go there, you pick what percentage you want. He's on the meat eater.com, the meat grind calculator. Yeah, or you can go custom your ratio. And I did this to figure out what Steve's was when he did 100 pounds of meat and he added 20 pounds of fat. This says 20.5 gets you 17%.

Okay. So most of us, if we're doing it this way, you're light on the fat. If you want a 20% fat ratio, you'd go 100 pounds of meat. You'd put in 25 pounds of fat. God, man, I'm going to have, I've changed my whole. I'm going to use this calculator.

So you go on this calculator, you can, how's it work? You set up. You're going to have juicier burgers, buddy. You're going to be blown, blown away. You pick your percentage you want. You do 10% if you want lean, 15, lean burger, 20% classic, 30% sausage, or you can do a custom mix. And then you either give them your amount of meat or your amount of fat.

And then it could work it backwards or however you need it. What a great little tool. and the graphic is a meat grinder that's got that's got that's got Hunter Spencer written all over it the graphic is a meat grinder that has like a calculator face on it very clever

the meat grind calculator at the meat eater.com yeah we'll all be using that this fall that is a good little tool just to think I'd be eating dry ass burger without even knowing it what it probably happens I feel that my burger is perfect

so when I use that calculator from now on too much fat in here i'm going to type in 16.7 percent you might develop heart problems you know now that you're getting more dude that's a great calculator oh so you remember when khrushchev did you guys remember when khrushchev addressed the united nations these guys don't no i don't know if i do who is what was being addressed i don't know he's mad about being the soviet union i don't know hated america cruzschev addressed of the cold war pulled it up Pull it up, Phil.

Cruise Chep, if you people think, this is so long ago it's in black and white. Type in Cruzchief beating the beating his he got so mad addressing the United Nations. You finding it? Yeah, looking it up. He got so mad he took his shoe off.

Oh, there's a Wikipedia article about it. Go on. It's called the shoe banging incident. Yes. So mad. He took his shoe off and beat the podium. him. Can you pull it up, Phil? Yeah. Sorry, one sec here.

I don't even know what he's, I'm sure he's mad about the Cold War. I'm guessing. I don't think it was like, like, he's like mad at his wife or something. He's probably mad about the Cold War. I'm really interested to see how you're going to segue this. Well, he already did. Did he? I was trying to think of a way. So I always, no, that's not it, Phil. It's an ad. It's an ad. It's a retainer.

It's not a cruise, Jeff. There he is. look at them so there's cruce chef he's doing the soviet thing there he is there he's got his shoe that's how pissed he is

look at the other guy's laughing at him yeah except you're not pissed you're excited he means business yeah but people don't know when I'm always sitting here as I run around in hey dude shoes my normal ones my old ones are very dirty

but I got these brands big new ones if you're in the market for some hey dude shoes we got these new ones out you get a first light pattern on there. Two versions of them. Two versions. This is the one I wear all the time. The first pair I ever got, Jason Feltz bought him for me as a present.

Because I was admiring his. This is years ago. Well, I mean, you know, it was a nice gesture. So that's like the shoe version. It's an affordable shoe. That's the shoe version. And then there's like a slipper version. Then there's a slipper.

There's an insulated slipper like a camp shoe. Yeah. Pretty sweet. You can get them, but you can't get them quite yet. I haven't seen Randall take his off. I think he sleeps in him. Dude, I wear him on all the time. And then, yeah, I like them.

Like, when you get out of the woods, you take your boots off. I mean, I just wear them to work anyway, but it would be that, and they're so lightweight, I always stick them in my bag. But I've always been a big fan and wear them all time. And so when we got a chance to put first light camel on, hey, dude's shoes, I was all over it. These are the wally funks, but we also got the slip camp. it's like an insulated one you slip into when it's cold out hanging around deer camp i'll be taking those uh next week you can't get them yet though you got to wait till uh october 13th

but it's a limited run if you go to the meat eater store you'll find these shoes and then when you get mad at someone you take it off be like that's not what i meant yon has shot my buck shut up yaddy stuff like that october 13th heydoo dot com and the meat eater store you can find them at Okay, moving on. Oh, your news. Brought to you by banish suppressors, which I'm holding my hot little hand right here. Steve's going to have to take his shoe off for this one. Yeah, I am going to get that now. I might double do it.

Last week we... Cruise ship, I don't if you ever got so mad he took both his shoes off, but I can see you. You're about to. Yeah, last week we talked about the guy in Wyoming who shot a bull, Grizzly. he left it overnight a grizzly ate a little bit of it came back cut the head off took the head left the meat because he's

worried about the grizzly and Brody's a big supporter of this guy listen I understand why he did what he did you weren't there you didn't hear the debate come on I said the guy screwed up we debated it a minute ago he weren't there for the whole conversation

anyway who was there can someone recap was Brody like is apologetic on the original go on I wasn't there. I'm not ready to O'Pine yet. My shoes are on. Okay.

Anyway, we had a game ward not from Wyoming right in about his take on this thing. If you didn't tell the, tell the story, please. Sure. Just, just, I know people already heard it, but just quickly tell the story again. I'll give the quick version. Last year in September, a guy was elk hunting, archery elk hunting outside of Cody, Wyoming in a very grisly infested area. he shot a bull elk in late afternoon the bull walked off about 100 yards

they were in a pretty open area they watched it lay down it was late afternoon they kept their eye on it until dark and then they were like don't know if it's dead or not we're gonna back out and come back in the morning okay can I can I ask clarifying question sure I'm not gonna opine yes you will no

as you and I have discussed this I've heard two explanations for his thinking and this is an important point the telling you just did he was doing more of a it's hitting the guts it's laid down I don't want to bump it

it'll it'll die if I back off but in the other tellings when we've talked about this privately you've said I don't want to go you said that he thought I don't want to go in there because of grisies. No, Grizzlies were deaf. Like he said, grizzlies were deaf. They didn't want to necessarily mess with it at night.

Okay. But this is because then Spencer's giving me a lecture. What? Every deer hunter knows. No, I was responding. You would wait till the next day to pursue a gut shot deer. And I'm like, I could see four hours. I listen.

I think it's a legitimate concern. I got to respond to that when you're done, Brody. Go ahead. There's a legitimate concern of bumping the elk. There's a legitimate concern of getting attacked by a grizzly or a grizzly getting killed, which is also a gigantic headache. Like the guy's concerns, I think, were legitimate. I told you I'm not going to opine.

I know. What you can opine after I read. Can I read this or do you got something to say, Spencer? This is all background. Steve was saying before the show, he said, I didn't even finish the story. Who leaves a deer overnight or who leaves an elk overnight? And I was like, that's very common. I told you.

That's like quite common. And it's the majority of people. that don't care about the well-being of the meat. Except you left one overnight. Depends. You did. You left an elf overnight. Not when I can see it laying there. But to respond to Steve saying,

who on earth does this? This is a common practice. The National Deer Association says, you hit one in the guts with a bow, you wait 12 hours. Bowhunter magazine says eight to 12 hours. Themead eater.com says eight to 12 hours. Well, that person's not going to be working here in a couple hours.

Okay, I'm sorry, Mark Kenyon. We need to move on. Let me finish it. It's just a thing that said. It's a thing that's done. People leave deer overnight when they have a marginal hit because they don't want to lose it. It's dark. It's like, it gets dark.

You should see my, my flashlight. I would have gone every couple hours, shined over, picked up its eyeshine. Okay, there's, it's heads up. Let's hang tight. A little about another hour later. Little eyeshine, take a nap, wake up, little eyeshine, take a nap, wake up, oh, he's dead. Let's do this after I read. But first I got to finish the story.

They come back the next, he comes back the next morning with somebody's pistols drawn. They go, the elk is dead. Why are their pistols drawn? Because they're just being ready. They're barrenoid. We went in pistols drawn to my moose. Anyway. It's a good point.

But that's a different situation. Anyway, they get to the bull. It's obvious there's been a bear on it, eating it. The guts are ripped out. There's bear shit all over the place. This man decides to leave the carcass, cuts the head off, takes it out, just the head. No backstraps. No meat, no nothing.

and doesn't report this to the game, to the fishing game department. Now, let's move on to the letter. I don't opine yet. No. Let me get through the letter. How was he caught? Wow.

I think you do have to explain that part of the story. Okay. So there's a carcass laying there. On his way out, he lets some cowboys know that there's a grizzly on a car. There's a grizzly that has eaten some of his elk. There's a carcass up there. away from it. Okay.

Later, I don't know how many days later, probably not far. Some hunters come across this carcass, headless, which looks very suspicious. Sure it does. They report that to a game warden. The game warden follows up. He ends up talking to this guy.

He takes the guys, I think, his bow. Like, he compensates the meat or the head and the antlers. and this guy eventually goes to court. The Game Ward incites him. He goes to court and fights the citation and gets out of the citation. This is where we're at now. In court. Yes.

A six-person jury. What? Everybody's barrenoyed down there. And one of the reasons why is because Wyoming advises not to mess with. Okay. Don't opine yet. Okay, I got to get to this letter. This is the reason we're here.

right now. Okay, a game ward wrote in. He's not from Wyoming. He's just giving a game warden's perspective. Good morning, Brody. Just listen to your story from the new show about the hunter abandoning his meat that a grizzly claimed. I can't speak for Wyoming, but I thought I'd offer you some

perspective from a game warden's point of view. I understand and agree with the hunter leaving the bull overnight. I can also understand leaving the elk once he saw a bear had claimed it. But there are several things he did or didn't do that make a game warden question his actions.

Number one, he took the time to cut the head off the elk and take that. He didn't take the time to get any of the meat. He questioned whether it would be salvageable due to being contaminated by the bear. Surely there were parts the bear didn't touch. Sounds like there was a group of guys with him. Several could have stood guard while he salvaged what meat he could. Then get the head last, which is getting the head last is a, I know in this state it's a rule, right?

Pack the head out last. That's the rule in Alaska. You can't move the, all the meat has the move before the trophy. That's my biggest problem with the whole thing, he says. He made note to tell several people in the area there was a grizzly on a carcass, but he never reached out to Game and Fish. That should have been his first call. Now Game and Fish gets a call about a headless elk, a call that could have been headed off,

but a Game Warden is thinking that this is poached or someone didn't care to the meat because they were too lazy to pack it out. Sure, there would have been bear sign at the carcass when he got the call, but at that point, there's no telling when the bear found the carcass. Now the Game Wharton has to use his time and resources to track this guy down. When he does, the guy says, well, a bear claimed the carcass, so I just took the antlers. Uh-huh, right. There were just too many fishy things going on with this case.

What he's saying is that the Game Warden was justified in issuing a citation. I also understand that Wyoming has a warning about carcasses that have been claimed by Grizzlies, but that warning should come with a caveat of an immediately report to game and fish. I feel that Game Warden was justified in writing the citation, and I also agree with the defendant's right to take it to court, and in this case he won. We write citations to correct the behavior, and I feel like this hunter will correct his behavior in the future. lessons learned, but calling in and being honest is always the best avenue to take. Do you need a drum roll for this?

No, because he made all the points. I was gone, so I wasn't here for that recording of the news show, or I would have got this all off my chest earlier. I'm sure this guy, he's probably a nice guy. I'm sure he's, I don't know, like, give me the bed for the doubt. Probably a great guy, probably loves his children, loves his country, like all that stuff. takes out. Don't think, I'm not saying something bad should happen to him or like I'm not, I'm attacking the logic. Right. I don't want to attack an individual that I don't know. I understand where he came from. There's just like this guy said though, there's some things that strike me as being very, very fishy.

We were in a situation before where we actually had like got assaulted by a bear. I know. We kind of alluded to that last week. In that situation, had we said, let's just, grab the antlers and go. Someone might have been like, why don't you just say, let's just grab a big back strap? Why not grab a back leg and go? Why is it that you're going to grab and go? Sure, but you were also told that there's like a very good chance that a grizzly's going to claim. And they were right. Yep.

And they were right. But getting attacked by a bear didn't then, we didn't then take that to me. Let's just grab the antlers and get out of here. No, no. We grabbed the whole damn thing and got out of there. Yep. I think you've got like why is it that there was why is it that you had the wherewithal you got guys with guns you got the wherewithal to go remove the head but you don't have the wherewithal to go remove any of the parts he was this is what he said again you weren't here he said he was like before that any of this stuff had happened another game warden had advised him not to take meat from a carcass that a grizzly had claimed because of urine, feces, saliva, like contamination.

That's what he said. A guy told him that? What are the odds he had that conversation? I'm just saying he said an old game warden told him that. An old game warden sat him down and said, I don't know just apropos. I'm just telling you what he said. I'm not like, I don't know if that's the case that that's what he said. And I'm not going to like beat the table with a shoe or something about it.

It just feels very. very fishy to me. And it looks fishy too, but, you know. The other part that feels very fishy to me, if they view, if he viewed it as this great travesty that he was not able to get his elk meat and was somehow only able to get the antlers,

also like the same guy, it begs a question, how in the world would that have struck you as a thing that you weren't going to bother telling anybody about? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like, and we talked about that last week. Like, like, he, he, he was either making a mistake or he was just trying to get out of there.

Being fishing. Yeah. That seems like the biggest error in this. Where he's like, hey, I got the part I wanted anyway. Mm-hmm. I got the part I wanted. I'm good. No, I don't got to mess with all the hassle of dealing with the elk carcass.

I'm trying to talk my wife into cooking it. Mm-hmm. As to why you would leave an animal die If someone is listening You back on this now? Why would you let Steve you were at him You're like nobody leaves a critter lay overnight

Don't know no no no no no don't put words in my mouth Okay You tell me your words He's looking at it I'm not even defending this specific situation Okay I'm not talking about other situations We're talking about this situation But you said the only person

Who would leave something lay overnight They don't care about the meat That was a declaration you had made No no no he's looking at it. I'm talking about, I'm talking only about this situation. Yes.

I could see a situation where you knew you had a really bad hit on something. I could see a situation depending on the weather as well, which would factor in my calculation. If it was getting down to 20 degrees at night? Yep.

I googled it for this day he was hunting. It says the lows were in the mid-40s to low-50s around Cody, Wyoming. Okay. That would have factored in. Many things would factor into the situation. I'm only speaking to a situation where there it is, I can see it. Right. In other situations.

I would say, I wouldn't say, I want to pull back and go back to camp to let it die. And he's like, and also I'm scared of Grizzly. So that's also going to encourage me to go back to camp. I would sit there saying, I'm going to pull back. But because of the risk of losing it to Grizzlies, I'm going to linger here and check it with my spotlight. And there's things you could do. You can monitor the situation. If you knew it was dead, you could go build a great big fire.

Yes, do all the things you do. Make all kinds of noise. Make a big fire. And hollering. One thing that this, before we go on this, if there are game wardens out there who know the answer to this question, and I'm sure they do, this is something Steve and I were. talking about. Is it legal to dispatch like a wounded animal that's like not going

where it's laying there wounded but it's not dead? Is it legal to dispatch an animal after legal shooting light? Yeah, because this is a great question. Let me tell you a story I just heard. I just heard a story about some hunters where they had gotten a bad hit

on a deer. They came back at to track the deer. They had a dog. The dog got on to the wounded deer. Somehow chased the deer out into a creek or pond, I'm not sure. But the deer's now out in the water with the dog. In the beam of a flashlight, a kid that shot it,

in the beam of a flashlight hits the deer out in the water. Who kills it. Hold on with a gun. With his bow. With a bow. Yep, sorry. I initially thought they made. with a gun, takes his bow

and smokes it in the head on the beam of a flashlight with a dog on the deer got in trouble for this for shooting it with the artificial light. Now here's where this is like a huge, I think

this is a very interesting gray area and wildlife law. If you look at legal method of take, legal method of take would not be knife. Like you most states it would be illegal to jump out of a tree and kill a deer with a knife. It's not a legal method to take. They'll spell out archery equipment, right? Center fire firearms, right? Like a rim fire, not a legal method to take. A knife, a spear, not a legal method of take.

Or even if you were archery hunting and had a pistol and you finished it off with a pistol. I would never do that. I know. I'm just, but this is all great questions. Because let's say, and I've done this and I would continue to do this, even if I knew it was illegal. you catch up to something that's wounded and you cut its throat you've now killed the deer with with not a legal method to take or you catch up to it and you do just like what i'm talking about you take a flashlight you're like shit there he is get another airwindle yep you get an aeroondum and kill it it's so weird i i get it but it's so weird to be like you just broke the law yeah yeah i mean i would write these tickets though i've cut deer's throats before yeah a legal

method of take you can't the well the first year i ever i ever got first i was like i was saying you're you always hunted before you were allowed to back when it's 14 i shot a deer when i was 13 in michigan i shot it it jumped up i jumped on it tackled it cut its throat that'd have been like absolutely illegal method to take but no game warden would write you a ticket for finishing a deer off of the knife no no as long as i i think it's there to because it's the slippery slope of, you know, if it's not written in there, then it gives people the opportunity to at 2 o'clock in the morning be out there shooting deer under lights. And as long as they're not caught, you know, doing it in the act, they can be like, oh, no. Finish them off. Yeah, we're just

out here finishing these three off, you know? Yeah. Right? No, I got it. So it has to be there. And it will probably be this gray area for some time to come. I would love to hear a couple game warden perspectives. Yeah. Like, there's extreme versions. And maybe an extreme version is, oh, man, your dog is, it's not that wounded. Yeah.

And your dog has it out in the water. Yeah. And it's like getting away and you smoke it with an arrow under a flashlight. That feels to me like not, that sort of tips into a weird area. And there's the one that's laying on the ground, like wheezing, you know. Like, it's not going anywhere. It'd be very interesting question.

And again, just like that warden said, too, the thing to do is call and let the warden know. So if you're going to all of a sudden fire a high caliber rifle two hours after legal shooting light ends at the deer that's on the ground weezing, and there's going to be a gunshot that goes off two hours after legal shooting light, call the warden. If you can, there's a lot of places you're not going to be able to. Sure. But you can make your best effort to be like, hey, man, just in case. you get a call about one single shot at 10 p.m. When it got dark at 7.30.

Yeah, but it's funny, too, because I would never, if we were bow hunting and we went out at night to look for something, you definitely bring your bow. Yeah, sure. Because you're like, well, shit, I don't know what's going to happen. Might have to finish it off. If someone said, well, I'm just going to grab my pistol, I'd be like, no way, dude, it's bow season.

Exactly. But I would never factor in the artificial light. Huh. As to why someone would let one lay, though, for like 12 hours. If you're not familiar with our, country hunting. Like there's a chance you bump that deer and he runs off and you never find him now. Ideally, you can let them die in their first bed or their second bed and you're just upping your odds by letting them slowly expire in their bed rather than chasing after them.

And now they've ran two more miles away and you just can't find them anymore. Look me in the eye. Once again. Yeah. That's not what I'm talking about. But before you, I hear you. I hear you. You didn't even know the 100-yard detail until we started until like five minutes ago. Before the show, you're like, people don't leave Deerle overnight. That's not what I meant. Okay.

Let's move on. You're right. You're right. Thank you. All right. I feel much better now. Yeah, I was, roo. Okay.

Wonderful. But now we got a firemark canyon. So that's too bad. He's got to take the hit here? Well, the eight to 12-hour recommendation. You know better. Do you mind let him know? I'll let him know.

I'll tell him to keep showing up anyway, though. I think Steve will forget about it. Let's just hope it blows over, but it sounds like you're fired. An I-Heart Radio experience. Carly Pierce, live at the Opera House, October 16th. Win your way in to the exclusive I-Heart Radio sound check party, an intimate pre-show performance and Q&A. And then stay for the full show.

Lee Pierce, live in Toronto. Enter now for your chance to win at iHeartRadio.ca. Stream Carly's new album, Honest Woman. Available now. All right, folks, if you are a whitetail hunter, you're going to want to hear this. Right now, we are running the ultimate whitetail giveaway, and it's packed with over $23,000 in prizes, including the new Zulu 6 binoculars from Sig, a 6-5 Creedmoor from Sig, Moultry Edge 3 cameras,

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On to the news. Here's an interesting one. I just got this, I was thumbing through stuff by thumb through and I saw that Maryland, I'm mainly talking about this story because of a side story, but that Maryland let me put my spectacles down here.

What you laugh about? It's side story. Oh, the side story is the best. That's why I brought this up. Here's a headline. Waterfowl hunting schedule confirmed after federal light... Trust me, I'll explain all of this. But here's the headline.

Waterfowl hunting schedule confirmed after federal light goose conservation order paused for 26-27 season. That's a little background. people who pay attention to just like wildlife politics, wildlife news, know that there has, that snow goose populations were quite low in the 60s and 70s. And then due to changing agricultural practices and the changing of some things that are not even well understood, snow goose populations just exploded. Most people think that snow goose populations were driven by, again, changes in agricultural practices. grain prices, more changing agricultural harvest schedules

the way grain is harvested where we basically created a bunch of snow goose wintering habitat. You might say, well, why is that a problem? That became a problem because snow goose numbers, it wound up being

that the limiting factor on snow goose numbers was winter habitat. So as farming practices created more and more and more snow goose habitat snow geese started to greatly degrade their

nesting habitat in the Arctic so in an effort to conserve Arctic nesting habitat states took a lot of steps to increase snow goose harvest and out of this

came some some snow goose hunting practices that in previous generations would have been regarded it as like deeply taboo. Most people out there will know that when you're hunting ducks or geese or migratory waterfowl, you need to put a plug in your gun so that the gun can hold a maximum of three shells. So two in the tube, one in the chamber, if it's a slide

action or a semi-auto, right? Maximum of three shells, counting the chamber. When you're hunting big game, generally, you're allowed to hunt 30 minutes after legal sunset. In waterfowl, you always have to quit at legal sunset. People know that, like, when you're calling geese, calling ducks, normally you have to use a mouth-blown call. You can't use an electronic caller. People are accustomed to very tight bag limits.

Like, maybe you're allowed two geese or three geese or four geese, right? To lower snow goose numbers, all that stuff went out the window. And they started these crazy snow goose seasons where there was no limit on snow geese. or you're allowed 25 snow geese a day. You were allowed to put extended magazines on guns. We're here that you get videos of guys shooting snow geese where the magazine is longer than the barrel on the shotgun. Spring seasons too. This has been most of my life.

Yeah. I've only ever known snow goose hunting as what you're describing. You've only ever known the good times. Electronic callers. You could sit multiple electronic callers out in the, field playing the noise of a huge flock of snow geese that you're hunting them in the spring you're hunting ducks migrating everyone you're like he's sorry normally you're hunting geese and ducks migrating south in the fall and winter season they're opening up seasons all through the central

flyway somewhere as the Atlantic flyway you're hunting returning geese you're hunting them on the way down you're hunting them all winter long and you're hunting hunting them on the way back in an effort to lower these goose numbers. Most guys that are participating in these crazy snow goose hunts aren't even really aware of, I would guess, aren't really aware of degraded Arctic nesting habitat. Maybe most of them don't really care about degraded Arctic nesting habitat, but it created this like snow goose bonanza. If you go look online, you'll find videos where guys are dumping hundreds of snow geese

off bridges and you'd go to popular snow geese hunting areas and people would have photos i've seen them where there are islands of dead snow geese because guys are just killing them and dumping them dumpsters full of dead snow geese landfills covered in dead snow geese from people like the bonanza is so big that they're violating the wanton waste laws it was the wild west so an important distinction here is in the Atlantic flyway you have the greater snow geese and these things are big and then in the central flyway you have the lesser snow geese well Maryland and other flyway Atlantic flyway states are just now starting to reverse some of these some of the but they're starting to tighten some of the bonanza back down um let me pull this up here from from from

Max. Bear with me a minute. Not as organized as I would like to be. Our resident duck expert, Max Bartum, I said to him, like, tell me your thing, what are you thinking when you look at this? Help me interpret this.

Max Barton says, here's my thoughts. He points out the main concerning thing about this is that the Atlantic greater snow goose population has been declining for years. They think that last year alone

they lost 200,000 Atlantic Greater Snow geese to avian influenza. That's what I was going to ask about. It wound up being that it's not like if they're getting that number under control, it's not because the crazy

hunting. The number's dropping from the avian influenza. And he points out that they're talking about pausing. They're talking about pausing the thing, but they're only just adjusting a couple things. They're still hunting them in March, right?

And this article even points out that greater snow geese on the Atlantic flyway are now at or below at or below the conservation threshold they'd like to see. So that leads the question, why in the world are they still killing them in March? Because they're only changing a handful

of these regulations. What's interesting to me is, Like, these are, like, waterfowl is, like, top level managed by the feds, right? So, states are free to change their own waterfowl regulations? No, it's a flyway thing. It's a flyway issue. Okay. Yeah, it's a flyway issue.

Snow geese seem to still be doing good, though. Central flyway, 100%. Yeah. This flyway, not. And if they're like, so, here's a sentence from this thing, or a passage. The light goose conservation order is a management tool authorized by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and has been used to reduce and stabilize populations of light geese, which include greater and lesser snow geese and Ross's geese since 2010.

However, here's the thing. So the Atlantic Flyways, the graders. However, greater snow geese are now at or below the management plan's population goal. Maryland in the other states in the Atlantic Flyway, a major bird migration route on the East Coast, have elected to pause the light goose conservation order for the 2026, 2007 season. Barely. If they were really, like, I don't get, if they were really serious about this. No, because it's like at or below population levels, right?

So if it's at, then you're like, everything's perfect. So if they're slightly at or below, I'm guessing in their heads, they're like, it can still sustain this hunting. It can't sustain this hunting. Yeah, but what I'm afraid of here is they're not factory. Okay. The Atlantic greater goose population right now is sitting at roughly 450 to 500,000 birds. They just lost 200,000 to avian influenza. Avian influenza has not gone away.

Meanwhile, the central Flyway lesser snow goose population sits at 8 million. If you've got greater snow geese in the Atlantic Flyway at around 500,000 and you just lost 200,000 to avian influenza

and your pause in the conservation order is a couple modest tweaks and you're still shooting them all through the winter and through March, I just think that like it feels to me a little courting disaster. Is it possible of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service could

like do they supersede Maryland like Maryland if they said you can't do this. Yeah absolutely. Yeah. It's through a flyway council all the states, the feds all come in. There's even interplay with Canada and Mexico on the whole thing. I just saw when I thought when I saw the headline I thought oh wow. Yeah. They're doing away with all the crazy slaughter hunts because geese numbers are so low. And I read them like oh wow, geese numbers are really low. And then I'm reading out, I'm like, but they're not really doing away with the crazy slaughter hunts. My read would be the same as Yanni that like, despite all that, they're still very

bullish on snow geese. Apparently. Being okay. Max says the new rules accomplished little, perhaps saving a roost or two from being jumped. Yeah. It does feel like the, again, the first time in my lifetime that this has gone the other direction for snow geese. It's always been the gloves are off. Like, get them. The only thing they've done, just to be clear. Here's the only thing they've done. They've said, okay, now instead of no limit, the limit is 25.

And now instead of it'll shoot a half hour past sunset, you can only shoot till sunset. That is the response to it being at objective, having just lost a couple hundred thousand birds to avian influenza. Now for my Maryland story. Right when this started to blow up, So this would have been back in.

I know, yeah, this would have been in 2010 when this whole thing started to blow up. I go down with my buddy Ronnie and we go down. Can't you remember how it happened. Me and him and another buddy of ours went down to do a big snow goose hunt with a guide. And the guide had one of those dogs. This is a problem with some labs. They're human shit eaters. I remember.

I wasn't aware of this. It's an issue. Oh, yeah. Ask Max. Yeah, there's all kinds of things on the internet to fix it, like feed them bananas. I'm aware of like coprophasia, but I didn't know it could like humans. They'll be like, yeah, give me the human stuff too. There are, it's a problem among labs.

Okay. I have this on good authority from Max, who in, in addition to knowing more about ducks and geese than I'll, knowing more now at his young age about ducks and geese than I'll ever know. Okay. He knows more about labs than I'll ever know. I had one for 13 years. They have a human shit eating problem. Yeah. So picture this.

This ties into Maryland. We're all in layout blinds, which are really restrict your movements when you're in a layout blind. You can shoot your toe off. This guide goes off and takes a growler in the wind row. all of a sudden here's the dog running around having consumed those human feces even to the point you're gonna think I'm lime I'm not

ask Ronnie even to the point where the dog is trailing the toilet paper out of its mouth okay there you are in a layout blind he should have buried you know you had to put a warning on this episode in addition to this dog being a copper phragic dog scatophagic dog he's also

avid face licker and he's got you like kind of captive because you're in a layout so here now we know that he's just consumed feceseat human feces but he wants to lick

you real bad I'm in that layout blind I'm in that layout blind beating this dog off not when you're when you're not supposed to be moving around

now now we will have to put a warning I'm in a layout blind aggressively shoeing the dog away for just because of this what do you think of that how many geese to kill a handful

not not unlimited not a slaughter hunt not unlimited what do you think of that Yeah, that had been like the first time in my life, I would reject dog affection. I love dogs. Makes you wonder, though, would you get wet?

Would you want that dog licking you? No. No. How's that for a story? I'd rather hear Spencer's Turtle story. Yeah. Thanks, Steve. Here's my turtle story.

An Iowa man is facing more than 120 charges in Alabama for trafficking in endangered species. Phil's got pictures for us. Aidan Thronson, whose only prior criminal history. He's a little shaver. His only prior criminal history I could find was for speeding in a school zone. He was arrested in northwest Alabama near

Bankhead National Forest. He is accused of harvesting and selling flattened musk turtles, which are a species that is exclusively native to North Central and West Central Alabama. It's been called the rarest turtle in North America. The turtles listed is threatened by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, endangered by the state of Alabama, and critically endangered by the IUCN Red List.

These reptiles have been extirpated from about 75% of their native range. Their population is down 90% since the 1960s. Their greatest threats are the things that you always hear in these cases, pollution, food chain disruption, poaching, and habitat loss. Specifically, the turtles rely on rocky waterways where they wedge themselves into rock. crevices to escape predators. But due to mining practices and urban development, their home waters have been filled with silt that now covers their hidey holes and that exposes them to raccoons, snapping turtles, wading birds, and large fish. The turtles are real easy pickings for most predators that wander the upper black warrior river system since adults only get three or four

inches big. But besides their shell, these are tiny little turtles, besides their shell, their best defense is the foul-smelling musk odor that they're named after, which they can release when they're threatened. Now, guys like Aden are further depleting flattened musk turtle populations by moving them on the exotic pet black market. The species is largely trafficked due to its scarcity, not because it has any perceived medicinal value. So what would it cost to own one of them? Well, figures are pretty hard to come by, but there was a bust in the 1980s for someone who was selling them at $80 a pop, which is pretty cheap. In 2008, someone in Canada was advertising them for 180 American dollars per turtle.

Man. And right now, you can buy one adult male from JJW Farm Sanctuary for $1,44. And that's their sale price. Is that dude, black market? This is black market. Yeah, well, I can't find where this website is based out of them, but it seems to be foreign. They only accept payment via cash app.

Zelpay or crypto. He's got a hell of a sale on because that's marked down from 3,000 to 1440. Let's talk about the rest of their offerings. This is your one-stop shop for exotic animals, the JJW Farm Sanctuary. Here's what else they have. We could get a male sub-adult chimpanzee for $15,000. That's a $5,000 price marked down. That price seems appropriate. 15,000 for a chimp. That's like, I think, in the neighborhood of what I would guess. Or we could get the world's deadliest bird, a cassowary for $7,000. Or we could buy a pound of glass eels for $2,348. And this last one is just for Steve.

We could buy an oscillated Tom Turkey for $2,200. That's not an isolated turkey. I understand the photo is not. And I don't think that's their photo either. But they are listing a male oscillated turkey for $2,200. It has one customer review from someone in Colorado who said that it, Seems to be a good turkey and they got it on time. So $2,200.

Where is this place out of? I can't find a physical address, but it seems to be in a foreign nation. That's a site. That's a CITES animal. 100%. Based on what I'm seeing, I would guess somewhere in Asia is where this JJW Farm Sanctuary is located. They have their email address on there. They encourage you to come pick these critters up in person, but they will ship them to you

if you need to. And again, the review was from somebody in Colorado who had an oscillated turkey shipped to them. So that's where you can buy a flattened musk turtle right now for $1,44. Hopefully that's the turtle we're talking. So how old is the kid there? The kid's young. 20 years old. Oh, not young.

Now, according to CITES analysis, they believe that about 100 flattened musk turtles are exported from the United States every year. but they think the vast majority are farmed animals rather than wild ones. As of now, it's unclear where Aden's turtles were headed or how many he had when arrested. But the 104 counts of taking or selling a protected species and the 20 counts of violating the protection of flattened musk turtles suggest it was more than just a few. The 20-year-old was given a $100,000 cash bond. The Alabama Department of Conservation Natural Resources is not commenting right now because they say it's an accident. investigation. So we don't know if he just had like his pockets full of these turtles. If he had a pickup full of these turtles, what it was. But facing 120 plus counts for trafficking these things.

My first instinct when I saw his picture, I thought he was 15 or 16 years old. And I felt and I felt bad for him. Not bad for him. You know what I mean? He like caught up in something wrong. Didn't understand, right? But 20. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like very intentional, driving from Iowa to Alabama to this tiny little watershed. to get these things. I don't think, I bet he's a hunt, fish and son of a gun,

no man. I tried to find his social media. I found two profiles, one on Instagram, one Facebook, same exact name, and all the photos there are reptiles.

So this seems to be, it seems to be a real passion of his is having reptiles. We're selling them. We're selling them. Yep. So no further details right now. We'll see how this plays out.

You know, I have never even, even heard of that turtle. Me either. That's why they call it the rarest one on the continent. Alabama, though, is just loaded with that stuff. Alabama, I think, has the most freshwater diversity on the continent. That's my understanding.

I think they got, don't they have one the most, maybe endemics or something? Freshwater endemines. Freshwater fish that probably extends to the herpetology world as well. Man, that poor kid, man. That's his story. Well, I don't know. He's 20. Yeah, I don't think he's hanging out with the wrong crowd. I think he might be the wrong crowd.

That would be my guess. Speaking of the wrong crowd, 15 bears removed from Bozeman property after someone allegedly fed them. Early September 26th, just outside Bozeman, Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks received a report that black bears were allegedly being deliberately fed at a residential property. spokesman Morgan Jacobson later said investigators believe that feeding had been occurring. Later that month, wardens and wildlife staff investigated the property and encountered an extraordinary concentration of bears, described as extremely food conditioned and habituated to people. Bears had lost their normal fear of humans and were no longer relying on natural foods.

FWP considered these bears to be a significant public safety threat and all 15 of them are removed. 14 were euthanized and a cub was transferred to a like a rehabilitation rehabilitation facility. The scale of that is highly unusual. And an entire year, FWP normally removes only about 8 to 10 problem bears from the Bozeman area. Jacobson said he knew no comparable local case involving so many bears. Repeated access to human food sources teaches bears to associate homes and people with easy food. Relocated bears often come right back to where they were captured when they were doing this stuff, or they'll find another place to go near where they were relocated to to get after human food.

common attractants are garbage bird seed feeders pet food and other calorie rich associated foods but it sounds like this person was it wasn't like they were coming in to hit a bird feeder that these bears were being fed um fwp stresses that early reporting matters if you do have a bear that's you know getting in your bird feeder or garbage because they if they catch them early enough they can kind of like stave off that behavior in the future um as of today the investigation remains publicly open yeah they haven't identified the locale they i don't think they want i know that's as much as i've found it's it's probably i assume that's intentional they don't want you know to attract attention to that person like that's all i could guess

um so they haven't identified a suspect or announced charges um under montana code uh unlawful supplemental feeding, the statute prohibits perfectly or knowingly attracting bears with supplemental feed and prohibits feeding that artificially concentrates wildlife. Maximum punishment, $50 to $1,000 fine, up to six months in county jail. A court can additionally revoke the offender's hunting, fishing, or trapping license and suspend their ability to do any of that. But there's no indication that they were doing this to hunt. no they might have been like i think this might have been like animal lover yeah yeah that's the vibe i get yeah is that it's not someone trying to get like a little bait

pile going for hunting that it's a that it's a they're doing a favor to the bears yes they're they're they're doing the bears a solid by giving them some food um my react my first the first thing that came to mind with with that in mind that this was just someone like being nice to the bears an animal lover but the first thing that that came to my mind is like imagine the reaction like what would have happened if a hunter was found to have poached 14 bears oh they'd be killing you know what i mean like this person is responsible for the death of 14 bears and you know we'll see hopefully we find out what the punishment ends up being um but i doubt it'll be what they deserve is my my no because a mat think about the

from from a resource perspective yeah think about uh i mean this is not a bear this is not a bear rich environment relative to other places no black yeah not it's just not it's like arid you know no agriculture it's fairly open like we don't have bears right like in the densities that you do in dense forest ecosystems um what we have are visible yeah because of the open nature of the country but we don't have that many and think about what you've done to the the resource reduction yep for people that do do do lawful bear hunting is like that is a huge it's a hit huge hit to the bear population the other thing i think about is for them to how extreme it must have been where i've told a story a couple times but i i

kicked a bear out of my own garage twice now this this fall two times I've run a bear out of my garage it was in the neighbor's garage um someone in our someone in our neighborhood i'm not sure who someone in our neighborhood tattle told on the bear their advice to them was close your garage right exactly so these are not like the agency the state agency is not trigger happy no when it comes to problem bears their normal attitude is you need to take care of the, like, correct the problem. Yeah. You know, if you've got, like, fruit from fruit trees laying around, get it picked up.

If you got trash out, get it picked up. If you got bird seed out, take it in. If it's in your garage, close your garage. Yeah, this isn't like. Like, their attitude is learn to live with it. Reduced deterrence and learn to live with it. So for them to go all of a sudden, like, 14, it must have been a crazy situation. Yeah.

And it brings to mind there was that woman in Calais. California that was feeding bears regularly. And I think she ended up getting killed by one of, yeah, in her house. Yeah. In her house. So that's like the extreme version of what could happen. Yeah, they must have had, these bears must have been like standing around. Yeah. Like to know what bait they were using.

Yeah, that's my main question is in the Pilates capital of the world, this posh mountain town, as proclaimed by Stephen Ronella, what were they feeding the bears? Like, were these, were they smart enough just to be like, Like, yeah, these bears will eat corn. So they just went down to the granary and bought a bunch of bags of corn. Bags of dog food or were they like, oh, there's like red meat. So I'll go buy half a cow and feed them steaks. Hopefully it'll go to, I shouldn't say hopefully.

Yeah, I hope it goes to trial. So all this becomes, all this becomes public. And if it would have been half that, if it would have been seven bears, that would still be a shocking number. Yeah. 14 is insane. I don't even get, like you talk to like Clay, he'll run up. Clay's running a bait pile down there in Arkansas. He'll get where he thinks, I remember him saying one time he had a bait pile and he thought 13 bears were using the bait pile.

But he notes that he's like, when you kill one of those bears, it shuts the bait pile down. Because he says there's two things happening. Acorns, if he likes to call them, acorns are starting to fall right around that time of year. but also he said so that's a pull away like a bear would rather go eat wild acorns rather than deal with this stressful situation of coming into a bait station where a bunch of other bears are using it but he says a bait pile is good for a bear and when you kill one it shuts it down so how could it be like how are these bears so habituated i would love to know this well they're so habituated They're able to barrel trap 14 bears.

This also isn't nearly the food-rich environment that Clay is dealing with. Where the bears are like, geez, they keep, I keep seeing my buddies in these barrels, but I'm going to keep coming. They got to work for food around too. Is that how they got when they barrel-trap these? I don't know. I don't imagine. Or they darted them. I assume they just shot them dead.

No. Maybe. I think they would have, if they say euthanized, like, I don't know. Oh, that could be. Yeah, maybe they just went out there. and had to just shoot them all. Or they've trapped them. I mean, trapping them 14 in one spot.

Like, maybe they did just shoot them. I don't know. Because it's an open investigation, they're probably not going to talk about this yet. But they are generally, like, very restrained and conservative about problem bears. Yeah. Which I applaud.

They give them a chance, usually. This was already a couple weeks ago. My brother-in-law, yesterday and I saw him. He said that just over the weekend, they had trapped three more. out of that neighborhood where he lives south of the university. So it's like the bears are just... It's a catastrophic berry failure.

Yeah, they're not in the mountains and out in the places they should be. They're like all coming to town to look for food. But even the town food failed. I was talking to an old-timer that has an apple orchard. Oh, you mean like that kind of town? He lost his whole orchard because the buds all froze or in that free cold snap. We have choke cherries and crab apples. I shouldn't say that.

shouldn't have those I didn't plan them I didn't you could cut them you could cut them down dude they they even ask yeah they even ask that if you have these things you should consider changing up your tree program for bears yes got it it's it's it's a recommendation it's a recommendation anyways not a one in my yard not a single choke cherry or crab apple yeah in my yard but I've had the worst bear problems we've ever dealt with two o'clock two o'clock in the afternoon I had to run one out of my garage. I wonder if we could transplant

your problem trees over to Wisconsin to my place where I'd love to have the deer and bears eating on them. I would like to make correction. I think that those bears clay's bait sites, when the acorns start falling, I don't think it's that they all of a sudden are like, oh, I don't want to deal with the stress of a bait pile.

I'm going to go eat acorns. I think it's actually, the acorns are falling. It is a much better, source of calories, better food. I don't need bait anymore. I have this great thing called acorns. Here's why I disagree. Please. Once you shoot one, they all vanish. So there is some calculation they're making. There is some push and pull. Yeah, there is some, but I'm just saying that I don't, if the acorns start falling. Yes. He says they would rather. They change food source. He says they would rather, but it hurries that decision along.

He should come on the show and talk about it. It hurries that transition along when you shoot one on the bait. Okay. Or else, why does the transition happen right on opening day? I honestly think it's coincidence. I mean, in Wisconsin, it seems to happen a week before opening day. Oh, it does? Yeah.

like literally all my neighbors like are quitting bear baiting because everybody baits them they have them all summer long and then the acorns start falling and literally there are no more bears on the baits or cameras you could be right i see what you're saying now yeah i think it's a strong pull like it's just it's like right around whatever that day is september 5 or whatever it's like you're at the end anyway you're at the end anyway i understand i'll buy that the hard rock bat casino app is here ontario it's Safe, secure, and crystal clear with fast payouts and 24-7 local support. You can play over 3,000 games right here, including Hard Rock Bet Casino Exclusives. The Hard Rock Bet Casino app is here, Ontario.

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Shall we continue? Please. The Sportsman's Alliance Foundation and Safari. Club International are suing the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission over its newly imposed daily bag limit of two fur bears. Which is so dumb. Oh, it is. This is how it came about.

Colorado's fur bear population has historically been strong. I shouldn't have spoke. I shouldn't have spoke. It's not dumb that they're suing them. It's dumb that Colorado did that. Yes. It's good that they're suing them. But go on, I shouldn't have even spoken up.

Yeah, this is just. adding, well, we'll get to all of this. The fur bearer population in Colorado historically has historically been strong and sustainable without any daily bag limit requiring no science-based restrictions. Originally, there were two proposals that came in for a change in the bag limit. There was one, there was two options. One was a limit of 15, which was recommended by CPW staff, or a tier limit of eight or four, which I don't exactly understand how tiered goes eight or four, but whatever.

Those were the two options. Some species, eight, some species four. Okay. But where's the tiered come in? It was for, there was two different groups of, of critters. One was like things that are considered like predatory and nuisance, like foxes, raccoons. And then others were like pine martins. And the word tiered is just used because it's eight and four.

Sure. Okay. So there's a last minute introduction. This is what they're getting in trouble for. During the July 16th meeting, Commissioner Rebecca Nyamets introduced a motion for a limit of two based on her own unpeer-reviewed survey published just the day before. I mean, come on.

Just pulls it out of her arse. Literally. Despite objections from other commissioners that the new limit bypass public notice and comment requirements. Six commissioners voted in favor of the two for a bear limit. Now, the whole commissioner thing in Colorado, there's 13 total. Only 11 of them have voting rights. They're appointed by the governor, but they have to be sworn in by the legislator.

So what's happening legislation? What am I trying to say? Not legislation. Letters slate, sure. So what's happening here is that the governor has appointed a lot of a bunch of folks to this commission that aren't pro hunting and fishing. And then this kind of stuff can come up and they vote on it and it can get pushed through. So what they're getting sued over is that they have violated the Administrative Procedure Act by failing to provide proper notice, including, sorry, ignoring public comment rules and relying on rushed, unreviewed,

data. Yeah, like, we're all here to debate and vote on 15. And at the last minute, some gals like, ah, how about two? Yes. That's what happens in that commission, man. Yeah. Over and over.

Colorado's got a big problem on their hands. But right now, well, coming up, less than a month, October 3rd, you can help Colorado's, hunters, anglers. November 3rd. Yeah, what I say, October 3rd? that already passed. November 3rd, you can vote in Colorado and vote for Amendment 83,

which would make a constitutional right to hunt and fish in the state of Colorado. Talk to Dan Gates this morning from Coloradoans for Responsible Wildlife Management. He said the main thing you can do right now if you're interested in helping this out is everything you see on the internet, like on socials, don't just like it or make a comment, share it.

And I'll go on to say that like you should contact people. This is the same thing that I was saying for when we were, when you guys were voting for the lion thing in Colorado. It's like, just this morning I sent a text to my family in Colorado. Most of this group, there's probably about 10 people on this group. Most of them don't hunt. My brother's on this group. He hunts.

I'm trying to think. Who else? My cousins used to hunt. They haven't hunted in 10 years. And I just said, hey, have you heard of Amendment 83? It's on the ballot. The short version is this. The amendment creates a constitutional right to hunt and fish.

It would be nice if something like this wasn't needed. But an animal rights extremists have chosen Colorado as one of their battleground states, and they will continue to chip away at these opportunities in Colorado's outdoor heritage until it's gone. Here's a link to learn more about the amendment. and I gave them the Save the Hunt Colorado.com link and I told them I supported it

wholeheartedly and hoped that they would too and even more share info about it, talk to neighbors and friends Paul Diaz. That's how you say thank you and Latvian. You know what I'd like, we should have some kind of expert

that can explain like do these constitutional rights to hunt and fish, do they have like teeth? You should listen to this podcast. Because we've explored this issue many times on this podcast. What have it changed anything in this specific situation, though? Like, couldn't they still pitch the two furbearer limit and that still pass?

I have yet to see. Like, I have yet to see. No, no, no. There's an example. We covered in a recent example where 25 states have enacted constitutional right to hunt fish. Vermont was the first in the 70s. The next state didn't do it until like the mid-night to early 90s. No, Vermont was the first in 1770.

hundreds of years ago. That's when they did it? Yes. The next one was in like 96. That's when it was? Yeah. They were way ahead of the game. There's some states that are surprising that we have, like Montana, like big hunting and fish of states.

Montana hasn't done it. Nevada hasn't done it, but 25 states have done a constitutional right to hunting fish. My question on this issue, and I ask everybody that comes on about it when we talk to people about it is can you cite an engagement? example for me where a piece of legislation came up and the legislation or a game management question came up and it was shot down because of would have violated the right to hunt and fish and there's just one right now who's the state that's suing on fisheries we just covered it on the podcast said north carolina i believe north carolina anglers are saying that's your

Fisheries management has run amok. And you are, you are degrading or challenging our constitutional right to hunt and fish by not managing fisheries in a way that allows for fishing. And they're questioning it under that. But I'm not aware of many situations

where actions have taken place where this would trump those actions. I could picture some. And I could also picture that they'd say that it would be, we're always going to set bag limits. The commission sets bag, and we'll do all this, and that you wouldn't be able to sue under that premise anyways. But with that said, I do think it's a very good thing to do. Oh, yeah.

And I think that when we pass these pieces of legislation, we should make them as broad reaching as possible because you're doing it on a ballot initiative, which makes good, hard law. Yeah, and in a state like Colorado, you're doing it kind of crystal balling the worst scenario where they're like, sorry, you can't hunt big horn sheep anymore or whatever. Yes. It's so puzzling to me that Colorado of all places has emerged as the area where the radical animal rights agenda is being tested. I don't think it's weird at all. I would picture it more in Lown, Rhode Island.

Don't you think them in Washington or the two that are kind of battling? Yeah, Washington is bad, bad. They saw an opportunity when Polis got into office, and, you know, we know that Polis's husband is very much an animal rights activist. That's how he defines himself. I think they were like, all right, here's our chance to pounce, you know. Yeah, yeah, because they have a, they have an ally in the governor's mansion. and then his husband defines himself as an animal

whatever the hell the goofy term he uses defines himself as an animal rights activist and we know from the cats aren't trophy thing that they were the governor was involved in that that whole thing

his husband there he's spending money and advocating against Proposition 83 they don't want Amendment 83 no definitely not is there a fit that dude's getting termed out is the person that's going to replace this governor,

who's I think is just the worst governor in the country, is who's ever going to replace polis? Are they more friendly to hunters and anglers? Are they like another animal rights wag job coming in? I need to research it. According to Dan Gates, he's better. He's better, yeah. Is there a federal avenue in this that, like,

if Trump decided tomorrow that he wanted to create 50 states having the constitutional right to fish? Does that work? It would be an, I don't know, there would be some kind of executive action. Well, he was bragging the other day. He was bragging the other day that he could ban fishing. He says, my office is so powerful. I could ban fishing.

I might just ban it for a day. That's great. Maybe that's the win on this. He was explaining this to Johnny Morris. And he was saying to Johnny Morris, who is in the audience when he said this. he said i could make it that you don't sell any fishing rods my office is so powerful i could ban fishing for a day and he joked i'm like i'm not going to fall

into the trap of not knowing when the guy's joking which the news media always pretends and not know when they're joking he's joking but he joked i could do this i don't think i don't find that joke funny well it's a joke it's a joke in the media the media always like he says a joke and then they go and act like he meant it. Right. And there's that, there's that Selena Zito quote. The media doesn't take Trump seriously, but they take him literally.

Trump supporters take him seriously, but not literally. And so the media then, you know, whatever, they would act like he's really going to ban fishing for a day, which would be not a thing he's going to do. But him saying that, I wonder if that is true from a legal perspective and you didn't executive order. The problem is with executive orders, as we see every time anybody does an executive order, this is the next executive undoes that executive order. And that's how you get stuff like the monument, the monument battles, the roadless battle and all these other executive orders. But I don't think it would have, like, he couldn't, how could he order, the states control their

own wildlife regulations, like hunting and, like, I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I don't see it. We should dare him to pass it. My hope is that these, um, my hope is that these, um, amendments to the state's constitutions, that it would act as a retardant to future attacks. And if that is all that it does, great. You know, Dan Gates will have more time to enjoy his retirement as opposed to sitting around all the time battling this. Yeah.

Give one more quick call to action, you honest, please. Yeah, go to save the hunt, Colorado.com. An issue I see. And when Colorado's going, through the the last election cycle when the cat met when the cat hunting ban was up in Colorado I never said it I never said it but I got pessimistic do you remember yeah I was like man I think it's gonna pass I never said it but I was like I got fearful that it would well wait you had reason to believe that after the people who thought that

who were educated what's that did you have people who thought that who were educated I was just looking at the polling okay I think there was good reason to yeah to wonder because the wolf thing went through right you know but i don't i don't see those as i know know they're neighbors but not their neighbors but not but it gives you an idea of how the electorate how the windsblown is thinking right i got pessimistic and i got to toward the end i got like man i never said it because i don't want to deter yeah i don't want to like people to just give up and not show up at the polls or whatever but i got nervous and i got to on the day before i got to where i was Like if I really had to guess, I think that we're not, we're going to fall short.

And then got it by a good margin. Yep. In today's 55 to 45, which is, which is big. Right. And where we send people to the White House on, you know, 49.9% of the vote. Or sometimes we send people to the White House on, yeah, less than half of the vote. Margins are tight these days. On this one, the thing I'm worried about is what I keep reading is they're anticipating, on November 3rd,

they're anticipating like the blue wave. And the blue wave would be that Democrat, Democratic voters are very motivated to go to the polls right now. And they're finding a sort of waning enthusiasm among Republican voters. This, like it or not, is going to be a not clean, not clean, but it's going to just be a partisan split vote. This is going to have heavy support.

from Republican voters. And it's going to have, I bet you, among Democratic voters, if only Democratic voters voted on this amendment, the amendment wouldn't pass. It'll lose among Democratic voters.

It'll win overwhelmingly among Republican voters. If Republican voters are not motivated to go to the polls, it makes me worried about Amendment 83. It'll pass. Go vote. Yeah.

But you agree that it's, well, no, it'll not. pass among Democrat voters and it'll pass overwhelmingly among Republican voters. So we need some Democrats to vote for it and you need a lot of Republicans. I don't know what all they got going on. I think the Republicans have kind of given up hope in Colorado. You're not going to win the governor's office. This is I think something I want to bring this up because it gives you a talking point and everybody I think at home can be like oh no why why do I really need to go

talk to people that you know don't understand hunting or how am I going to talk to him about this. This gives you a little insight as to what non-hunters, I was texting with my aunt after I texted the group, she wrote back and said, hey, I'm all for hunt to eat, but have reservations about trophy hunters. Does this amendment address that? I didn't see it addressed. Is it under, in quotes, traditional hunting? Okay. So again, this is just where she's at with what she knows about hunting and there is a part of it and again that term I was asking you guys earlier

like it's been weaponized big time I could go to her right now and I might have a call her and say hey I'm a trophy hunter at times I just spent 20 days in hunting elk and didn't shoot an elk because I was looking for a trophy but that's like what's in her head

because she's hearing about like how bad trophy hunting is because she thinks of it as a dichotomy Well, she thinks of, I said, well, what is trophy hunting to you? She says, well, someone just goes and kills something and takes the antlers and puts it on their wall. I said, well, that's illegal. You literally cannot do that anywhere. That's called poaching.

She's grizzly. Huh? Get it. Yeah, it's called, yeah. It's like different states call different things, but it's want and waste. So it's like that kind of a simple conversation and explaining something simple as that is saying, hey, trophy hunting, this thing that you think is trophy hunting that you're seeing in the media, and people are saying,

oh, this is what these people actually want to do. It's illegal. We can't do it. No one does it. And so you can kind of forget about trophy hunting and just like,

please support us as just hunters and anglers that are mostly out there doing the hunt to eat thing. Except for Brody's body. One more shout of for Vermont. They passed it in 1777. That was 14 years before they became a state

and they were the only state who had that protected right to hunt and fish for more than 200 years. How can you have a constitutional amendment before your estate? Dude, they didn't even finish the revolution. Like, this is an important one. We got to get in the long hunt. When we did the

long hunters, where it's colonial, you know, it's about the colonial deerskin trade. Like our audio original longhunters covers the end of the French and Indian War up to the American Revolution. And we talked, talk about pre-revolution all of the deer hunting restrictions that were in place. There was restrictions that you couldn't hunt if you weren't a local. You couldn't hunt deer if you weren't a local.

There was people putting in deer seasons. In the 1760s, 1770s, they're like, we need a season, we need bag limits. New York, I think. We need that you can't shoot does. We need that you can't come from out of town and hunt deer around here. So yeah, it was people who are aware of these things. All right, man. I hope it's just a lot of people show up on November 3rd.

And just do what you guys did around the cat thing down in Colorado. It is so upsetting to see this happening in Colorado. Save the hunt, Colorado.com. Sons of bitches. See you guys next week. You want to make them go hunt with that lamb. Yeah, we don't want to protect his right. All right, man.

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