The Megyn Kelly Show - Alice Marie Johnson on Her Journey Out of Prison, President Trump, Kim Kardashian, and Criminal Justice Reform | Ep. 117

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Alice Marie Johnson, founder of the Taking Action for Good (TAG) Foundation, to talk about her journey that led to a conviction and life sentence, how President Trump, Kim Kardashian, Van Jones and others helped get her released in 2018 and pardoned, criminal justice reform and sentencing reform, her childhood and the mistake that led her to prison, what it was like when she walked out of prison after more than 20 years, what she loves about America, how she's helping others now, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Listen to this. I'm feeling no handcuffs, nothing on me. I'm free to hug my family. I'm free to live life. I'm free to start over. I cannot. This is the greatest day of my life. I cannot. My heart is just bursting with gratitude for what has taken place, what has happened to me today. That was Alice Marie Johnson, released from her life sentence plus 25 years after she served 21 of those years in a federal prison, thanks to clemency from President Donald Trump. An extraordinary path for her from successful manager at FedEx to lifer in prison for a nonviolent drug crime, and then the road out. And the story is relevant just in terms of an American story, how one person makes one bad decision and sees things start to unravel slowly but surely and devastatingly. But also it's a story of hope and optimism and the willingness

to maintain one's sanity and hope and belief in a system that has wronged you against all odds. And ultimately, this comes down to not just Alice Marie Johnson's story, but the story of many prisoners who were locked up with the keys thrown away for crimes that did not justify the extraordinary sentences they were given back in the 90s in particular, and how Alice and others like her worked after her release to change that, not just for her, but for many, for many prisoners who were struggling to hold on to their hope. It's a great, great tale. The fact that it involves Kim Kardashian and some other notable figures you'll hear along the way,

like Heidi Fleiss and Wanda Barzee, the woman who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. I mean, it goes on. But I think you're going to fall in love with Alice Marie Johnson today. And maybe, maybe, even if you're going to fall in love with Alice Marie Johnson today. And maybe, maybe even if you're a hardliner on Law & Order, take another look at how our criminal justice system has been handling some cases over the years in a way that has been refined, but could still use some more. Very proud and happy to bring you Alice Marie Johnson today. Coming up right after this. Alice, hi. Hi, Megan. How are you? I'm doing well. I've moved back home to Mississippi where I was born and raised, and it's a big change. What are you doing these days? Well, I have an organization called Taking Action for Good

Tag, and I've been very busy with that. I've been traveling around to different states, working, really basically uplifting the need for criminal justice reform. I'm not a lobbyist. I'm just a champion for the people. Sure. And honestly, you've got the history to back up your demands. I mean, reading your story and your book really opened my eyes to the injustice of your situation. I'd heard the headlines, of course, when you were granted clemency, but really getting into it, it's stunning. And I think you're an interesting case. You don't deny that you did something wrong, that you did something criminal, but the punishment did not fit the crime. So let's just start before we get to all that at the beginning, as they say, because I think your backstory is really interesting. born in 1955 at a time when you weren't set up for natural advantages being born a Black girl

in Mississippi during that time. Right. Tell us about how you lived and your family situation back then. Megan, I came from a very large family. My parents had nine children. I'm dead, almost square in the middle of those children. But I grew up, of course, in the South, as you said, in Jim Crow, Mississippi. But during that time, there was so much, I'm going to say so much pride in our neighborhoods. We lived as a community, almost as a tribe, our whole community. Everyone looked out for each other. My parents, I grew up in a very strong Christian home. We were in church all the time. My father was a deacon. My mother was always the one doing

welcoming announcements and doing the different programs at church. And so I was very much involved in church activities and in my community, too. I grew up in a I went to school in a segregated school and we didn't you know, I'd never really had a lot of interaction with people of the opposite race other than my mother. She would, you know, in terms of friends, of young friends. But my mother was we always called her a woman ahead of her time because she was really and truly a healer in our community. She was able to cross racial divides. She was an excellent cook and she worked many different places. My parents eventually had their own restaurant, but we grew up with,

I'm just going to say, amazing parents who really and truly drilled home to us to look at people as people, not to judge people by their socioeconomic people, not to judge people by their socioeconomic condition, not to judge people by their race. So one of my mother's good friends, even back then, was a white woman. My mother championed the poor people. Many times she would show up in court, and she definitely didn't have even a high school education, but she was extremely smart and she would appeal their cases to the judge. And she became something I'm going to say like a probation officer, because back then she would tell them, I'll take them to church. I get them right. He comes from a good family. She comes from a good family. So we always had company at our house, always singing on Sundays around the piano and dinner. And so I grew up pretty, you know, I grew up a pretty happy childhood. That's it. That was my impression in reading

your book is that you were loved. You had engaged parents. You had in the early years, the mean Mr. Abernathy, who you were working, I guess, in his cotton fields. And tell us about your living situation. I read 14 people in a two bedroom house with outdoor plumbing and with newspaper instead of toilet paper, no running water. And how are you sleeping at night? How are you doing 14 people in a two bedroom house and working for Mr. Abernathy? You would hope that you could sleep at the head of the bed and not at the foot of the bed. We had pallets on the floor. Everyone would be piled up in different beds, two, three beds in the room. So I tried to sleep at the top. But

by the time I went to the cotton field, probably with a sack on me me as soon as I could really walk good. We had to hit the fields. But even that work, you know, as a child, when you grow up in something, you don't really realize just how bad it is until someone has to tell you that it was really bad. We were just happy. We were just loved. That was the ingredient in our house was a lot of love. But my parents, you know, later on, I realized how hard they had it. And my mother was truly a visionary. And she refused to stay in that condition and the share cropping, because that was really some a way to keep us really very much oppressed. And my mother used her cooking skills to sell plates and food out of the trunk of the car at places where Mr. Abernathy

would not know that she was doing it to save money so that we could escape that sharecropping life. And they were able to do it. We literally, it looked like a scene from Roots, how we had to escape under the cover of darkness to where they had bought a house, had bought one of those Jim Walter homes where they had to, you know, prefabricated type homes. And at night after a hard day, my father working in the barn and picking cotton, he would go and put sheetrock up, bring furniture. My mother, they were very enterprising. And just one night, I didn't even know what was going on, but because I had such a big mouth, they had to make sure they covered my mouth and I didn't say anything. So under the cloak of darkness, our cousins and other people

we knew were pushing our car, literally like from roots until we got far enough to turn headlights on. And that began our new life. But my mother knew that education was the way to escape poverty. So she was really focused on education. All of my sisters and my one brother, they're all college educated. They've all had very good careers. But for me, Megan, I came up during the time of the 60s and 70s and everything was exciting. That was a hippie movie. That was all of this stuff. And I wanted a part of that. I left under the covering of my church and got pregnant at 15 and married at 15 because back then you just did not walk around pregnant and not have a husband. Now, wait, before we get to before we get to let me let me back you up just a little. So you you get away from Mr. Abernathy. And when you left that house in the cover of darkness, what what year would you say that was?

61, around 61. It's just so crazy to think, you know, that here I am talking to you. You lived this. You know, this history is not that far away from us. You know, people kind of forget what life was like here not so long ago, you know, in your childhood. So you guys get out. Your mom, I do, like, the way you write about her cooking makes me really want to give it a try. The blackberry cobbler and the smells wafting through your home and the fried chicken and the biscuits and the gravy.

And I think to myself, oh, my gosh, I need to try harder. Oh, my goodness. It's not my childhood. Really, you know, the things that I experienced as a child and the survival things that my parents did, they never, ever would give up hope on anything. They were always praying people, always hopeful people that things are going to get better. My mother used to say, out of everything bad, something good can come out of it. And I went even the worst times of my life. I've kept that attitude that something good can come out of it. And I went, even the worst times of my life, I've kept that attitude that something good can come out of this. I don't know what you're doing, Lord, but something good can come out of this. And it's not being someone with their heads in the clouds, because I've

experienced much adversity in my life. It has not been a bed of roses. In fact, each time I had to fight my way through. Well, it seemed to me that you were this strong, you know, you say big mouth, young gal who would stand up to bullies, who would try to fight injustice when you saw it. And that early pregnancy, you know, losing your virginity, you say at 14 and then being forced to marry Charles at age 15 because you were expecting a baby was the first sort of jagged edge, right? The first thing that set you off course, but you did rebound. I mean, you wound up having two kids in a couple of years, but did you get your high school degree? Yes. In fact, I had scholarships at my graduation when I graduated because I had a, you know, I never dated. Charles was my first, you know, the first person I'd ever

dated. That was just something that happened. And I knew that there was no way he was going to allow me to go away on a campus, even though I was making outstanding grades in school. So half day I'd be in school and the other half I'd slip and take classes with this secretary of college. And I just really it was through our BOTEC program. So I was prepared when I graduated to get a job because I did not want to go back to manual labor. I knew I had to have skills. And so I really concentrated. And even in the way that he found out that I had done that was the secretary of college showed up on the night of my graduation because I was the fastest typist they'd had. I could type nearly a hundred words a minute with no errors. Everything,

I was laser focused on it. And this is back in the age before we had word processors where you could just delete if you screwed up. You had to be really good back then. You had to be good. And that served me well, Megan, because it allowed me to, in fact, I integrated our offices in my little town. They'd never had a black woman work in an office. And I was the first one in my town to get an office job. So that was a really big thing. And it just so happened to be at a factory where my father was working. So he was so proud to have his daughter working in the office. Then you get an incredible thing happening in your life. Opportunity knocked. A colleague died. You wrote a poem, as I recall from your book. And there was a senior executive

of FedEx who saw your poem. That's not where you were working, but this person saw your poem and what happened? He saw my poem. Little did I know the Greg, the person who had been tragically killed. I've always been a writer. I started writing when I was 10 years old. My first poem was about God because that's what I knew. And I'd always express, even during my terrible marriage, I'd write poems to express the way that I felt. And so when I went in that morning to work at the Urban League and I found out Greg had been tragically killed, I put into words, I think, the feeling of everyone in that office. And that night, Jim Perkins, who was the senior vice president at FedEx over personnel, he was there and Greg was his mentee. And someone from the Urban League showed him the point and he sent for me. And he asked me if I'd written that. He was in tears. And I said,

yes. And he simply asked me, would you like to work for FedEx? That's how that gift made room for me. So you take the job at FedEx and I, forgive me, but I would think a woman in your position, this is a great opportunity. A lot of people would have kept their heads down, their mouths shut, just done the work and not made waves. But you made waves in a good way. You actually saw injustice there. You saw that women weren't really getting the same opportunities, that people of color weren't getting the same opportunities. And you complained about it. And this is what we have to be in the 1970s, 80s now. I mean, this is not a time when those kinds of complaints were met with open minds normally. Oh, for sure not.

There was really a lot of tension in the office. People were afraid because no one bucked the system. But I had to. I had to speak out against what I saw. And I started documenting. I was considered one of the biggest producers in my department, the best ones really, but I was being passed over. The women were being passed over. It was not only women of color, it was all women were being passed over. So I documented what was taking place and I wrote it up. And it was such a tense time. And when they had the meeting, Jim Perkins showed up for the meeting and he was the highest level.

That was shocking. And he agreed. And he really, really got on to the people who were doing those things in our department, because that is not what that company stands for. So it changed the whole system within FedEx. I didn't know that fighting for stuff, it seems like, as I say, I've had to fight for things that I knew were wrong. And it was corrected. And I used my other abilities to get a job in another department. And it was in computer operations. It was because of my interpersonal skills. And I didn't really know that much about computers, but they needed to balance off their management team. And I had a very good interview and had really good creative ideas for this new department. And they hired me as a manager and I learned everything that I could. And I became

savvy in that department. Still living in Mississippi, right? Still living in Mississippi, manager now for FedEx, making good money. Good money. By this time, I'd moved to Memphis. By this time, my husband moved to Memphis. He followed me there. We probably broke up every single year of our marriage and got back together. But I moved to Memphis, took my children to Memphis because there was not good housing in Mississippi. And when I left him, I left him pregnant. And so I left and moved to Memphis. And that's how I ended up working for the Urban League.

So at that time, Memphis gave me new opportunities. Charles comes in and out of the picture. It wasn't a happy marriage, but eventually he leaves the picture. You're done with Charles. And unfortunately, the man who came into the picture did not bring good things. And that was Ted. I would say, you tell me, but that feels like the beginning of the downward spiral. It was very much the beginning. I'm a very successful manager by this

time at FedEx. I've been with them 10 years. Ted comes along. He's a gambler. And because I really had not been, I'm going to say out there in the world, I've been concentrating all of my time on being a mother and really trying to excel in my career. So my children were really my life. And so Ted comes in and there's bright lights and the excitement of gambling. Megan, it's a whole new world for me. I really didn't realize how a person could get a gambling addiction, but I did. Right.

It was fun. You hadn't had all that much fun in your life at that point. And he's taking you to the dog track and you're having that thrill of seeing your dog win. And I understand that's how it starts, right? You just think it's harmless fun and it can spiral. It definitely spiraled. You give away a jackpot trying to win a jackpot, giving away everything. And before I knew it, I was so deep in debt because bills weren't being paid because there was a panic. I've lost this and I can't afford to lose it. I need to play

more to get this back because I can't afford it. And I really had developed a gambling addiction without knowing what a gambling addiction felt like. And so I'm traveling all over the country for FedEx, training other people in management by this time. I'm facilitating a class called is management for me. And I'm, I'm training people on our service manual because I always, no matter where I went, Megan, I'd always excel because I throw myself into my work and try to always be the very top, the very best. I always felt like that I had to do more. I had to be better. I had to do more because it was hard for especially a woman, especially a black woman to rise up through the ranks. So we got to do even more to prove that we're the best. And that's the mentality really that I had

going on there. Because I came from such an ambitious and competitive family too, I didn't want my family to know that I was in so much trouble and they would have helped me. And I did something stupid. I used to train, I get expense reports. I mean, expense money, my trip was counsel. I loaned the money to Ted who did not pay it back to me. It wasn't even $5,000. So my career went up in smoke. They found out. Yes, they found out because he kept until the very last minute saying that he was going to give me the money back. And I'm nervous even until, because you only had 30 days to turn your expense report in. And the trip had been canceled and I loaned him the money because he was going to win it back. He had some

sure things and it was going to help me get out of this hole that I dug myself into. Instead, I lose my job. Everyone is shocked that I have lost my job. Me and my husband, family divorced and during this time, it was crazy. I don't know if you, probably not, but when you're in a situation that you are, it's almost like standing and looking at a surreal situation. I'm outside, almost out of body. That's just how crazy I felt at that time. I'm observing these things that are taking place in my life, but it's like like I'm looking at someone else. Who is that person that's doing this crazy stuff who just lost her job? I don't know what's going to happen with my children. My ex-husband has disappeared, literally. Zero child support. I've got a daughter

in college and four more children. You have five kids, right? You have five kids. Five kids. So FedEx finds out about embezzlement. They fire you. You're facing foreclosure on your home. Your car got repoed. You had to declare bankruptcy. I mean, this woman who was a manager for FedEx, who was training managers, you're on your way up. It's like, you know, the course of what a year you went from that to all these financial problems, life is falling apart, and then you lost your son. And did that happen? How long after the termination and the bankruptcy and so on, did you lose Coco? I lost him within not even a year, not even a year, it was months after that, that I lost my son, who was my baby son. I used to say that I always didn't let my babies sleep in the bed with me so they wouldn't get spoiled to that.

But because me and my husband, we were separated when Corey was born, he slept in the bed with me. I let him sleep in the bed with me. That was my baby. So we were always close. And he was a gift from God in the family loved Coco. He was very giving, very talented. He moved up an extra grade. He was a grade ahead of himself. Very smart. And it was my other son. Coco was 12. My other son was 14, who was driving the scooter. And a truck hit them.

And we didn't determine who was wrong because later on they put a stop sign up there, but I could not bear to go to court to try to get into any suits or anything like that because the driver of the other truck was 16 and no money, no amount of money could bring my baby back to me. And it was, I didn't have insurance, could even bury my child. I've already made this bad decision to become involved in something with passing messages just to keep my lights on and put food on the table. All right, let's get to that though. Let's start with that first moment though, because that is the before and after moment because you're struggling financially, you lost the job

you have no help from charles who's not supporting any of the five children and then you you meet as i understand your cousin is the one who first brings you this quote opportunity involving drugs and ted and really you describe it in your book as it's the opportunity to become what you call a, quote, phone mule. So what was that moment like? Because you know she's offering you an illegal opportunity, but it's basically fast cash. It's fast cash. But when she offered and asked me if I knew anyone, I was very insulted. She saw the condition that I was in, but I really think that because she went over to the dog races and she saw Ted over there too, I can't say this for sure, but I really believe that she knew that because there was no reason. I'd never been involved in

anything illegal before or drugs for sure, but they knew the state that I was in financially and she possibly recognized that maybe Ted was a little bit shady. And so when she asked me if I knew anyone, I told her no. Knew anyone who what? If I knew anyone that could move some drugs. So she had a, she had a supply of drugs that she was looking to get out there on the street. How did she, how did she have a supply of drugs? Her husband, her husband, she was living the high life. Her husband was a drug dealer. And so he needed distribution.

Right. That's exactly what he needed. And so I didn't even tell Ted immediately because I was very insulted that she would even say that to me. But when I did tell him, we were just having a conversation. I didn't even tell Ted immediately because I was very insulted that she would even say that to me. But when I did tell him, we were just having a conversation. I told him the foolish question that my cousin had asked me. And he asked me, what did you tell her?

And I said, I told her no. And I said, do you know someone? He said, yeah, you're looking at me. So he was really small time doing some things on the side. And this like gave him an opportunity too. And my role is, I really didn't know, even to this day, I've never touched drugs. I've never handled any drugs or profit to deals. My role was to, when they come in town, whoever's bringing drugs in. And I say they because I didn't meet them. When the person came in town, they were given my number because no one in the streets.

I have nothing. I don't have a criminal record. I have nothing. So I'm a good go-between. They call me and they say, this is the number that I can be reached at without giving me the name. So I call either, I call Ted and I say, this is the number that someone can reach them at. And then that's it. Why didn't, why wasn't it set up such that Ted could just call the person directly? Like why didn't the dealer or whoever came to town with

the drugs just call Ted directly? Why'd you have to be involved? Well, I found that out too when I went to prison. Well, I found out that you're like the mule that keeps the connection. If one gets caught, they don't have a trail to the next person. I see. So they're looking for cover. They have to make it as attenuated as possible just to make it a little tougher for law enforcement. Absolutely. Absolutely. But for me, it's kind of easy money. I shut my eyes to what it really was that I'm involved in a drug conspiracy, but I was. And as've said, Megan, what I did was absolutely wrong. And even after this had gone on, my first thing they gave me was a thousand dollars. I was so happy because I literally could get my, keep my lights on. And when even this happened maybe two more times and

I can't do it because now I feel like I'm getting in too deep. And then my son gets killed. And I can't even bury my son because I have no insurance and no money. And so I'm back. I'm back. In fact, I had stepped away from it. And it's like, don't call me anymore. And then this happens.

And then I'm all the way in now. Up next, the law catches up with Alice and in a massive and massively unfair way. Don't go away. I didn't know what conspiracy was. I didn't know that conspiracy meant that you're charged with every element of the crime that has taken place. And in fact, my attorney that we hired told me, don't take a plea. They offered me three to five years.

We went to this area and we talked to them and they said, and probably less, you can be out way less time than that because we'll get you to a camp somewhere low. And three years probably due to. And I mean, all of this discussion is taking place. And I go outside with my attorney and he said, don't do it. You don't have any money because I don't have this big money. I'm still, you know, I'm still kind of struggling. I'm still we don't have any money.

I don't even have five hundred dollars in the bank. And so your kids at this point, I've got a daughter in college. I've got actually two children in college, both my older two daughters. And then my last two, I've got a son that's a teenager. So when this happened, this arrest happened, my son that's 18 drops out of high school. He was making very good grades. He can't stand the pressure. And my other son, I mean, my house is just falling apart. And my son had not been dead that long. We never got any treatment, no counseling.

So I've got my son who was the driver who is in pain. I'm still in pain. And we are just trying to really get through what the things that have taken place with us. So I get arrested really year after my son, but we were out for two years waiting for trial. And you, I mean, it's just so awful to think that you, you were offered three to five, you could have been out in two. And of course, it's one of those things where you look back after you get the verdict and think, why, why? But the lawyer was advising you that he didn't think it was a good deal. And you were a first time offender. And you'd never, you've never been in trouble before. And it wasn't a quote, violent crime. It's not to

diminish what passing drugs can do, but it wasn't considered a violent crime. And so you decide to go to trial. And the amount, I mean, I just can't imagine the amount of stress that was on you day after day. What was it, six weeks? How long was your trial? My trial was six weeks, but they gave me such a low bond. My bond, Megan, was only $10,000. And I had to pay $1,000, of course, to bail bondsmen. So my attorneys told me that that's further proof that they know, even though you've got these high charges against you, they know what you've really done. And there's no money. There's no drugs. It's all testimony because no drugs have been apprehended. And that's why I was convicted of attempted possession. However, the people who were at the top, this is a crazy thing.

Even Ted wasn't really at the top. The top people that was bringing drugs and getting, I'm going to say the lion's share, They got very small sentences because they testified against me and they turn around and say, I'm their boss. How could I possibly be your boss when you have the drug criminal records? All of them had had done time, but they all took they all made deals because I'm the fool that goes to trial. And so I become their boss in everything that's happened. And also they testified to what we call in prison ghost dope. Everyone was trying to tell this fantastic tale of how big they were. And because it makes their sentences less, I would look in their eyes while they were testifying. And you probably saw in my book, one of the guys who said that he knew me and how he met me, that I look the same because there's four of us who go to trial. I'm looking at him and I'm saying, that man is looking at my co-defendant. He's never seen me in his life, but they've shown him maybe pictures and she had a little bit of a lighter

complexion than mine, but we look nothing alike. So when I asked my attorney to tell him to come down and identify me, he comes straight and points at my co-defendant and say, that's Alice. You say that by the time all these guys, you know, because they're trying to offer you up on a silver platter to save themselves. By the time that testimony was done, you said that the court was looking at you like you were El Chapo. I mean, you had been elevated from phone mule to criminal drug lord running a cartel. I'm the queenpin. I said, if I'm your boss, I'm the worst boss in history because I don't even know what you should be selling your drugs for. Mm-hmm. Where's my nice car? Where's all my nice things? Where's all the boss in history because I don't even know what you should be selling your drugs for. Where's my nice car? Where's all my nice things? Where's all the rewards?

Look, I don't even have a paid car. My house is not even a $100,000 house. They've got things that are repossessed. I mean, that are not seized, not repossessed. They had seized property, seized cars, seized money. They couldn't seize anything for me because there was nothing to seize. So after trial or in the course, I think it was toward the end of trial, the government comes to you and they make another plea offer. And what did they offer you? This time it was eight to 10 years. And you rejected it?

My attorney said, no, they're only doing that because they're scared. They know that this case is falling apart because they brought drugs in from another case because they hadn't seized any drugs in my case. And they told the jury, this is what drugs look like. Well, you can no longer do that. The laws have changed. And there was also no quantity. And so I was convicted of attempted possession of 107 pounds of drugs. But there is this little thing called estimated based on testimony that they escalated that to an estimated two to 3000. Now, where in the world those numbers came from is beyond me, but that was allowed back there. You can't do that today, Megan. Did you ever have a feeling at the time, Alice, you being a God-fearing woman, a person of faith,

raised in a good home, good parents, do you ever have that moment when you were doing the phone calls of like, I'm facilitating something bad, you know, something that's going to hurt children, something that's illegal for a good reason. Well, at the time that I was doing it, I knew it was something bad. And even trying to step away from that. And really, I'm going to tell you, Megan, my biggest come to Jesus moment was that with that was when I went to prison and I was among the drug addicts. And I remember being broken, just really on the floor in tears and crying out to the Lord for forgiveness that I had played any role in this evil being put. I don't care what the role is. It still is a role in it that I had been a part of something because somehow, somehow I just let myself that this is not so bad. I'm not the one

that's out there really doing it, but I was helping facilitate it. That's why I can't make any excuses for that. So you go into court on October 31st, Halloween, 1996. And did the jury stand up and read the verdict? They gave it to the judge. And so were you expecting to hear not guilty in that moment? Yes. Because the jury had been hung for almost a week. And in fact, it got down to just an 11 person jury. And they had been hung. and we were getting reports that they were screaming because they were trying to understand the conspiracy part of it. And so they were asking for because we had the notes. They were asking for the elements because it was very evident that I was not a drug seller, but the conspiracy put me right dead in the highest level because

of what was testified to in my case. So they gave it to the judge and then the jury foreman read the verdict. And it was- What was that like? It was just really unbelievable. I went to bed that night, not even thinking that I was not coming back home. And so when that verdict was read, I was immediately taken into custody. And I never forget, as I've got handcuffs on, the agents are leading me out and they're in my ear saying, trick or treat, trick or treat, trick or treat. And it was just, I looked back at my parents, they were just sobbing. And my children there, and then someone whispered in my daughter's ear that she was one of the, we had two prosecutors there, that you can kiss your mama goodbye now because you won't see her again, free, alive.

Oh, God. You had been told that some of the others involved had very severe sentences, including Ted, right? What did Ted get? Ted got a life. He got the same thing that I received. He got more life sentences, but how many life sentences can you get? So you didn't and you had seen that the recommendation by the prosecutors that you receive a life sentence, but you say in the book it didn't you didn't really understand it. You didn't it didn't you did not think that that was going to happen to you. So you go back into court on the sentencing day and it sounds like, frankly, a nasty judge, this woman. And what did she say? She recommended that I go to a mental

facility because a woman like myself basically would have a heart. I would have to come to grips with my sentence. When I asked her for mercy, she said, mercy. Anyway, it was just crazy. But when she said that to me, that I would need mental, to be at a mental facility, coming to grips with this life sentence, honestly, Megan, she really helped inspire me at that moment, because something rose up into me, and I thought to myself, you will lose your mind before I lose mine. I mean, you just must have been stunned. In the book you write, I only now understood when you heard life plus 25 years, the gravity of my situation. I mean, I can't imagine how big that moment is when they're telling you, as you put it in the book, it's an unexecuted death sentence.

Yes, because you my daughter came to visit me in tears at one of the prisons. She was so tired of seeing me there. And she was having such a hard time. And she said, Mama, coming to see you in prison. She was crying. She said, it's like visiting a grave site over and over. She said, I can come and see the place where your body is laying, but I could never take you home again. And she broke down. It was a terrible moment. There must have been some

serious depression. I mean, I just can't imagine saying goodbye to your children, including teenagers, as you head off to do 13 months. He said, this trial was so awful. He said, I'll have you out in 13 months. He said, with the appeal, we'll get you out. Because what has taken place with you is wrong. And I remember telling him, 13 months? I can't do 13 months. Meanwhile, you would wind up in there for 21 years. You write about how you started off in a California prison.

So they move you from Memphis all the way across the country, 35-hour drive to California. And can you just frame some of the indignities? You're in a small cell with two other women. What were some of the indignities that you experienced on your way into becoming a lifer as they're known? Well, even, even the travel there, you know, not having experienced anything like that, having to really squat, cough. I'm just going to be graphic, pull your cheeks and coffins and, and sure, coffin over and over until you make sure that they can see that you're not carrying anything in any body cavities. Hair rubbed through ears, down your throat, look at making sure you're not hiding anything. But just not even having the privacy of just using the toilet.

I'm using the toilet with other women, three other women in the room. And there's zero privacy. Even the pat downs, when they pat you down to go places, they've stopped some of that. But I remember one of the places that I was in, a male guard just really going too far with how they pat us down and run their hands over us up in places they shouldn't be doing. And you really can't say anything about that because then you become a target because you're coming against an officer. It's so sad because it's like, I think of the you at FedEx trying to raise women up and fight injustice and challenging the bullies when you were a kid. And now you're forced to endure that even convicted criminals should not be forced to endure these circumstances. It's totally inappropriate and unethical. And yet there's no way out. You knew it. There's no way of challenging it. And I went in, I went in even during the time of the month when I would have a

menstrual cycle, you know, pads were traded back then, like something really precious because you could not get enough. Sanitary pads. Sanitary pads. We're only allocated. And if you wanted tampons, unless you had money to buy them, you just weren't going to get those things. So even just running out of this, just the most basic of necessities, the living conditions were inhumane. It's dehumanizing. It is very dehumanizing. Even at a dog shelter, they have to have so much space for the animals. But that was not taken into consideration as the female population started ballooning.

In fact, it went up almost 800%. They didn't have enough female facilities. It was worse on the women than anyone. So they just packed more beds and packed more people in. And we were just really pressed in like sardines. But one thing that I did when I got there, something that really, really helped me was this is the thing that got me through. It was really and truly my fate. And really looking around and seeing conditions. And once again, that fight arose up in me. And I saw it my very first prison that women with long sentences, I hadn't even been there a year. And here I am challenging the system that women with long sentences were denied certain educational opportunities. They quickly put me in the vocational area teaching and helping women get ready for reentry when their sentences were short and teaching them how to type. So all those skills came in handy because I had a good job in prison.

And I noticed that these women, it was like a bad melancholy with the women who had long sentences like me. Some had 20, 30. Well, they couldn't take certain classes. And I said, why is this so? How do you tell a woman not to hope? And they said, Miss Alice has always been like this. You're just new. You're just fresh here.

And you have to remember, you gave up your freedom. You're in prison now. And it's not like you're going to get equal anything. I said, but this is basic. I said, we do. So I started going to the law library and studying constitutional rights as a prisoner. And I just made a decision. I'm going to challenge this system. Whatever happens, it happens. And I did. And I won. And it was like big jubilee that took place. I didn't just win for myself, for the women. I won for all of them everywhere. And in fact, Megan, I didn't even know that

anyone would ever know anything about this. I had a friend, Cheryl, who stayed at that prison when I left. She said every time she'd see women with long sentences get in that class, she'd always tell them, you have Alice Johnson to thank for this. But when I came out my first year, I have to tell you, because this is related to that incident, that came to the attention, not because I told them. I never told them this. To the International Women's Day on March 8, 2019, I was summoned to the United Nations. I was already notified that I was receiving this honor. And I was very surprised. And it was four women from around the world who they had selected as women's rights defenders. And I was the only one from North America. And so I went to the United Nations. I hadn't even been out of prison a year.

But it was because of that work, fighting to change a system. And the series was called The Courage to Question. Out of everything bad, something good can come, as your mom said. Yeah. Can I just ask you as an aside, because I did think it was kind of interesting in this California prison, you had some famous inmates. Who was there that was famous? It's kind of interesting just to know what you saw or what that was like.

Heidi Fleiss, Patty Hearst had just left. In fact, her father had built this nice wing part of the unit she was in. Just the way they do on the college campuses. Yes. And so I had some other, a lot of political prisoners who, a lot of the women from the Black Panther, I mean, from the civil rights movement who were former Black Panthers. I was there with them. Some other people were there too, who were pretty famous people because it was California. And then you get transferred to a Texas prison. And as I understand it, among others, there was Wanda Barzee. She's the one who pleaded guilty

to the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. Yes. And then Squeaky Fromm, right? Follower of Charles Manson. Lynette was her name. Yeah, she was there. She was at Max. But the one who pleaded guilty, the Smart lady, there was an episode in the kitchen who pleaded uh guilty uh the smart lady it was there was an episode in the kitchen involving her that was a little bit funny uh because she was considered such a snitch there in the kitchen if someone got an extra piece of chicken she was running back letting the officers know and these women just got up and surrounded her and they went crazy on her and told her you should have been telling them who you were keeping. I can't remember her name. Elizabeth Smart. Yeah, exactly. You should have been telling where Elizabeth Smart was while you're telling about this chicken leg. I mean, in prison, because you did the bulk of your time in the Texas facility. I mean, what like how would you describe it overall?

Because I feel like there may have been this sense of bonding, but also it seems like it may have been tortuous in some ways and abusive. Like, how would you describe it? Broad brush. And in just about every female prison, you broad brush, you're going to have officers who some of them are there who should not be officers. You're going to have good officers and there's going to be bad officers. But for me, Megan, I was not going to. I had this sense of freedom in prison. And I've had people leave it on my Facebook, said, Miss Alice, you were contagious.

So you helped me get through my time in prison. I started writing plays there. And that was a huge thing. The prison I was in became well known as the place where they have these plays. I didn't know how unique it was to be even doing the things. I just knew that I could do something to make it better. And I had something that they needed. And many women who came to me, Megan, had very bad unforgiveness issues. That's really what set me free, to make me feel freer, is I had to forgive all the people who had wronged me, the people who had lied on me, that taken me away from my children, the one who got me involved, the judge, prosecutor, everybody. And it wasn't just a I'm going to forgive you.

It wasn't just lip service. I had to literally clear my own heart and take that weight off of me because unforgiveness would poison you. And I've said that it's like a rottenness of the soul. And I started writing their names down. And in my prayers, I consciously, I'm definitely no saint, but I consciously would say their names out that I forgive them. It didn't feel like I had forgiven them. But finally that weight started lifting up off of me. And these people who were going on with their lives, not bothered about me, they were free, but I'm in prison in prison because I'm weighted down with unforgiveness. So I really, I really,

uh, started really encouraging the women counseling with them. And I saw change taking place with our forgiveness movement. I'm going to call it our forgiveness movement in prison of being free and letting those folks go because you're making yourself sick and you can't change it. Keep on because this is your gift to yourself is to forgive. I'm going to start doing that with some of the old bosses at NBC. I'm going to start doing that right away. How do you do it? You say, I forgive you, Andy Lack. I forgive you. You have to say the name out loud? Actually, in my prayers, I take it right there because we had concrete floors, so I'd have to

be on my knees praying. I'd have their names right there beside me. And as I pray for my family, I pray for them first and ask the Lord to bless them and I forgive them. You said, Lord, that vengeance is mine. So if I take the vengeance, then you leave it alone. I'm not even asking you for vengeance. I'm asking you for peace because I needed peace in my soul and I could not have peace carrying that weight around and hating and rehearsing and rehashing what happened to me because it's not going to change. These people have gone on with their lives. And here I am in prison, in prison. It's amazing that you went from poet to playwright, prison playwright, but continue to try to bring joy into the world. I mean, that's what plays and acting and pretending in that way

does and had an impact. I mean, clearly you were your most popular prisoner, I think. I think you were very much beloved. But there was tragedy. I mean, both of your beautiful parents died while you were in prison. You missed so many milestones in your family. Like, what were the ones that you remember that you missed? Oh, my goodness. It was my first grandchild that was my first granddaughter because I had my first grandson right before I left, but he was a baby when I went into prison. But it was the birth of grandchildren. That was the biggest thing. And then they just grew up in prison with no in-prison grandmama. Our communication was only through letters. So I can't make stuff good, but I always make them stuff. And when I came home, my grandson had so much stuff that I had sent him over the years. It just warmed my heart. And pictures, they would send me pictures from home. I put them up on my

bulletin board in my room. And that was really hard for me is to see all these pictures and I'm not in them. That's why I take so many pictures now, Megan, because I was left out of so many pictures. I'm always saying, get your phone up. Let's take a picture. Up next, she never stopped fighting for her freedom and it would wind up coming from the most unlikely sources. That's next. It is time for another edition of our feature from the archives where we direct you back into our growing library. Now it is growing of podcasts to something you may have missed or something we feel you must check out again, perhaps. Today, we're going back to episode 49 from January of this year with the incredible Kathy Lee Gifford. Remember this one? It was

hilarious and it was inspiring like this part. There's no spirit of love in the news whatsoever, which has been a frustration of mine in it and why I know you never consider yourself as having been in the news business. You're an entertainer, your time with Reige and so on. And then I see why. You're too kind a person. You're too positive and well. I don't know. I think there's something about the news business that attracts us dark forces.

You're too damn well, Kathy Lee. No, you know what I've learned? I learned a long, long time ago and I learned it from Billy, the friend that I, Billy Graham, that you and I have spoken with on the air. And gee, that went more than viral. That went all over the world.

Billy was very wise when he told me basically, Kathy, just keep telling people that God loves them. Let that be your message all the time. The few times that I did get caught up in something political, I regret it. I should have stayed on the message of Jesus' love, God's love for his world, for his creation, because that doesn't divide us. That unites us. Anything else has got the power to divide, but God's love heals. God's love restores.

God's love redeems. All the things we need in our world today come from one source alone. It's not going to be passed. You can't pass love in legislation. It's not going to happen on Capitol Hill. As pass love and legislation. It's not going to happen. As you mentioned, you're not, you're not into organized religion at all, but I'll tell you a story. My, my friend, Melissa Francis, who works at Fox news did. Oh, I love Melissa. She's a sweetheart.

She's awesome. She used to star in little house in the Prairie, which is a whole other story and an awesome one. But she, um, she, she told the story, she actually told it publicly, but she told me privately first that she was at her church in New York City two years ago, I want to say. And there she was in the news business Monday through Friday, but on Sunday in church. And the priest started railing on Fox News. She's like, what is going on? I don't want this in here.

I'm trying to avoid politics in this moment and go to my better angels, you know? Trying to go back to the well and get a fresh cup of mercy that you need. Yeah, that's neither the time nor the place for that kind of a message. I really do believe that. I'm not against people going to church by any means. Church stopped meaning anything to me years ago when I didn't hear anybody teaching rabbinically, which means the true source of the scriptures, the Greek in the New Testament, the Hebrews in the Old. That's the only way I want scripture taught to me. So I go to the rabbis and I go to Messianic rabbis to teach me.

I go to Israel and I study where these things actually happened. And I study in a geopolitical and a contextual way what was going on then. What were the Sadducees and the Pharisees? What did Jesus mean by this? Why would Jesus curse a fig tree? And when you start to learn rabbinically what all of that actually means, scriptures come to life and you get the power you need in your daily life. I know exactly what Melissa means. I went to ABC and NBC every day for years and years and years and gave of myself as

much as I could, tried to be the best performer I could be, the best friend to anybody that I worked with. That was my mission field. I wasn't a missionary to Africa. I was a missionary at NBC and at ABC. And countless lives were changed as a result of it. And people used to say to me, how can you call yourself a Christian and be, you know, I go, because that's where God's called me to go love people. There is no one like KLG. And in this episode about God and faith, hearing her story about the importance of her faith worked perfectly. She's a solid person. This is a quality person. Honestly, she's lived her whole life as a quality person. And I think you'll, if you don't already love KLG, you will, if you go back and check this one out in our library, and we will bring you that my sentence was unjust, but there's more attention being paid to these kinds of unjust sentences.

And maybe I have a shot of getting out of here early. Right. I never stopped fighting for my freedom, but I didn't let freedom become an idol in my life. It wasn't my God. I'd never stopped fighting, but I'd lived a balanced life. I was always putting petitions in. I went to the law library and I filed petition for women and they got relief and I didn't. Every time I see a law change, but it wouldn't be retroactive. And so I'm still stuck. And so I really and truly never, ever stopped fighting for my freedom. I just had this belief that one day I was going to be free, that this just could not hold up. God is a just God. And I just felt that something was going to happen. I started having dreams. I've always been a dreamer. It's like I have these dreams and

I could see it. I could feel it. It would be so real. Plus my family always was encouraging. That was really, really very important to have strong family support. But I always kept my family uplifted too, thinking that something is going to happen. And before I knew it, a year, another year, the years just started passing and I just kept myself busy. And this was one thing that I found was by serving others, I couldn't think about myself so much. When I would help, I became a hospice volunteer. That was a really big, I stopped being one when my father died though, but I became a hospice volunteer at the prison in Texas because that was the only prison they had for the terminally ill. And so literally women were sent there to die.

There weren't as many compassionate releases as there are now. You can get a compassionate release easier. But at the time, they had hospice training classes. And I signed up knowing I knew nothing about nursing or anything. But I did it because also I had elderly parents who were still alive. And I kept thinking when I go home, if they are sick, I want to be able to take care of them. But also, I was working in commissary at one point and I went up to the floor to deliver commissary and the women were so sad. And so I wanted to see what I could do for them. And so I took the training and many of them, I was the very last voice and face that they would see in this life.

So it became totally life changing for me to sit with these women and to bring them comfort and to be their prison family, to sing to them because I love to sing. I'm not the best singer, but I sing to them. I read to them. I just talk and just be their presence, sometimes saying nothing, but I knew it meant a lot to them. So that was one of my, one of the, I'm going to say things that helped me too. One of the things that needed to change was a reevaluation of these harsh sentencing laws and guidelines that were on the books when you were sentenced. I mean, there was a reason you were sentenced to life in prison. That judge, nasty as she was, she actually didn't really have much discretion. Because the laws at that time in 1996, when you were found guilty, we had cracked down on crime. There had been a crime wave and the country was, you know, between 1970 and the early 90s, dealing with record crime numbers. And there was a push to

be less forgiving when it came to certain crimes. And at the federal level, there's no parole. So if you get a life sentence, you're in, that's it. So it's like, you almost had just bad luck committing this crime and getting found guilty at that particular moment in time. Right. There was a crime bill that had already passed. The war on drugs was in full. It was full. It was full blown at that point. And to do anything as a politician, everyone was against changing laws because you would be viewed as being soft on crime. I mean, you're a person who never was in trouble with the law before. How does a person who's never in trouble with the law before who, yes, serves as a telephone mule, admitted, wind up in prison forever, forever? There are murderers who got lighter sentences than you did. I saw people, sex offenders who had committed heinous crimes.

I'm not talking about, I mean, terribly heinous crimes. I saw these people walk out the door and some of them walk right back in as they reoffended. But because there is no parole in the federal system, and that I don't understand because there is parole in every state, but there is no parole. So you can't go before a parole board and say that I made these changes. This is about redemption. There is no redemption in the federal prison because there's no parole. And so to see all of that taking place and I spent my entire time with a perfect record. I came out with no infractions and I had wardens sitting, wardens writing letters of commendation, staff who's writing to the White

House for my freedom. I've got, the women started writing for my freedom because they considered me when the whole guidelines came out for this clemency project. Under Obama. Yeah, there was one person at that prison who thought that I wouldn't get it. That's so crazy. So Obama takes office. He initiates something called the Clemency Project. at prisoners who are serving a federal sentence in prison, uh, who likely would have received a substantially lower sentence if convicted of the same offense today, check that's you.

They're nonviolent, low level offenders with, without significant ties to large scale criminal organizations, gangs, or cartels. Maybe that's what they thought. Maybe they thought you had some cartel, you know, back to the El Chapo. They've served at least 10 years. They don't have significant criminal history, demonstrated good conduct in prison, no history of violence, and 16,000, almost 17,000 people filed petitions under the new clemency initiative. Obama granted clemency to just under 2000 individuals while he was in office. And did you believe that you would be one of them? Yes, absolutely. By this time, the ACLU has me in their ad campaign. It started in 2013 with them, six people. And once again, the grace, the favor of God is on my life. They select me to be one of

the six people in their ad campaign from all over the federal system. And so I'm in this ad campaign. I'm in newspapers, magazines. I'm getting many reporters are writing about me and the work that I've done, my case, everything. So I know that that someone sees me because I've become a national figure at this point. And unfortunately, the process itself was very flawed. And the whole clemency process, really, Megan, is extremely flawed. The clemency process is sitting in the Department of Justice. And so one of the things that they do when a person gets close is a really viable candidate for clemency is they contact the prosecutor who prosecuted

your case and ask them what they think. So what do you think mine thought? Yeah, it was not in favor of any clemency. He, well, he, you know, people get mad, not because they feel like that you should be there. But only should be set free, my captain, case manager, as I say. Yet that has no weight to it. The prosecutor even met with my family when I was denied. And he told them point blank that every time he saw mine, he just put deny. And see, that's not what clemency is about. It's not about it's about mercy.

It's about grace. It's about a changed life. But if you're sending these cases straight back to the prosecutor, you get the same information that they have. What the charges was, what I did, there was absolutely no violence whatsoever, no violence before prison, no violence in prison, a stellar record, recommendations to come out, but it's hinging on a prosecutor saying no. Meanwhile, you had members of Congress writing on your behalf. You've got the final days of Obama's term. It's December 20th, 2016. Trump would be inaugurated the next month. Obama granted clemency to 231 people. You were hopeful you'd be one of them, but in the end, how did you find out the bad news? In the end, it was on January the 7th, and a clemency denial list, they were putting these out, the ones who were rejected. I didn't even know I had been rejected. My daughter saw it. She was scanning every time those things come out. Because somehow my rejection, my denial letter didn't make it to me. Still to this day, I have not seen it. But I was on the list of denials. That's how I found out that I had been denied.

So my family started- Did they explain why? Did they tell you why? No, it's shrouded in secrecy. You never, ever know why. They don't give you any explanation, except they tell you cannot appeal it. And that's something that is so wrong. What is it that I could do better to be a better candidate for clemency? You don't even know what they looked at while you were denied. I just received this denial letter. I mean, they sought not to deny, the people just received a denial letter. Mine was lost somewhere, but I was on the list of denials. That's how I found out. I mean, at that point, you know, when you say back to your, how do you tell a woman not to hope? At that point, was your hope diminished? Well, honestly and truly, yes. But then my family kicked in and they said they didn't know why, but they just felt like it was to do with the

prosecutor because the office of the pardon attorney had contacted my daughter. My daughter was checking in and it seemed favorable that I was going to get it. And then all of a sudden everything dropped. So they kind of figured it might be the prosecutor. So they went to meet with him. And that's when they were to ask him if he would to show him that I'm not the same person to show him what I've been doing. And he even told my family, I didn't know Alice was doing these things. Oh, I didn't know that. So how could you say denied if you don't really know this? And so they got us quick. They went and did a sit-in at his boss's office and refused to leave to get him to change his mind, to not say denied, which he did. His boss did. He said, this is new information. He said, this was not presented to me. And so that was big. It was real big. And so he wrote a letter and said that because of new evidence about Alice Johnson, I'm, you know, recommending her for clemency under the Obama administration. And so we hoped up until the last minute that when we finally got that letter, my family, we just knew that everything was going to be reversed. But when I

saw President Obama on that plane waving goodbye, I just sat there at that table with tears running down my face because I knew that it was over. I was waiting for a last minute call, anything to say it had been reversed because we thought it was reversed at that moment. Oh my goodness. And then, you know, I have to ask you, because of course his successor is Donald Trump, who the media at every turn portrayed as a racist, white supremacist. And I don't know how in touch you were with the news cycle, but were you looking at him thinking, well, that's not going to happen? Well, it was looking pretty grim, but I'm going to tell you what I did, Megan, and this is the truth. I got the scripture out of Proverbs 21 and 5 that said, the heart of the king is in the hands of

the Lord and like streams in the river, he can turn it any way he wants to. And I started just holding on to that scripture and praying for President Trump and just asking the Lord to turn his heart toward me, Lord, please turn it toward me. But I still had hope because the person, the U.S. attorney who had did the reversal letter, not my regular prosecutor, there was still a slight chance that maybe I could still get a reduction by appealing to him. But then he resigned. Then I'm asked to do a video op-ed. This is big. This is big. So there's this online publication called Mike, M-I-C, that wants you to record a video interview.

It was four minutes long, but a woman named Kim Kardashian saw it. Yes. And then what happened? Kim saw it. Someone who she don't even know who she follows, they sent it to her. I mean, they retweeted and it came up, I guess, on her feed.

And she said she had not been on her on Twitter for days. And she said she turned she went into Twitter and the first thing pops up is my face. And I'm at the beginning of telling my story. And she tweeted out. This is so unfair. And little did I know that she had tweeted it out. She contacted Sean Holly, her personal lawyer, her family's personal lawyer, and told her to find Alice Johnson and see if she would like for me. I want to help her. And she said, find her.

And so Sean Holly found me. And she didn't tell me who it was. She had said a very rich and famous woman would like to hire me to represent you. Would you like that? I'm like, let me think about it. Yes. Did you have any idea who Kim Kardashian was? Even though it was Kim, I thought it was Kris Jenner. I had my daughter Google Sean Holly and find out who her clients were because she said it was one of her clients. And I will say, I know it is Kris Jenner. Kris Jenner is about to help me. I was so happy. And my daughter says to me, what if

it's Kim Kardashian? And I said, Kim who? She said, Kim Kardashian, mama. You don't know who Kim Kardashian is? I said, no, who is that? She explained who Kim Kardashian was. And sure enough, two days later, I found out it was Kim. Can you tell me before this, right? Before this, you had a dream about how you might get out of prison and what was it? Honestly and truly, Megan, I had a dream about this beautiful woman who was going to tell me that I could go home, who was going to help me gain my freedom. And I saw all of these news stations. I saw so much media. It played out with the media out there just like I dreamed. But see, I didn't know who Kim Kardashian was. Right. So she wasn't in the dream. That was her. I know it was her. That was her. Yeah, it was her. But you just didn't know who Kim Kardashian was right so she wasn't in the dream she that was her I

knew it was her that was her yeah it was her but you just didn't know it was her I didn't know that it was her but I'm gonna tell you this is so true one of the women who was in prison with me who I told my dream Josette Sanchez when it had when I had it and that had been probably 15 16 something like that years sooner and she said she never forgot the dream. She sent me a message on Messenger recounting my whole dream to me. So Kim Kardashian calls Ivanka Trump and tells Ivanka about your story. And Ivanka says, we need to loop in Jared Kushner, Ivanka's husband, and somebody who'd been working on criminal justice reform with Van Jones, among others. And that's how they get it in front of President Trump. Kim writes in the foreword to your book

about how she worked on it for six months, she and her team, to get just the right presentation to President Trump. And now keep in mind, members of the audience, keep in mind Obama, he granted 1,927 clemency petitions while in office, the highest total of any president going back to Harry Truman. Trump granted 237. Only two other presidents since 1900 granted fewer than Trump did. That was George W. Bush and his dad, George H. W. Bush. So Trump was not too liberal with the clemency grants. So the odds are not great, but you have this really interesting team working it from the inside. And Kim Kardashian gets in front of Trump. And yeah, go ahead. You take it from there.

Actually, Kim, at that point, she had brought in different attorneys. At that point, she brought in Brittany Barnett, Jennifer Turner, who was the one from the ACLU, Mike Scholl, and was actually my attorney team. Kim assembled this team from all over the country, from Dallas, New York, to Memphis, to California. So I had a different team working with her actually on my clemency petition. And this team was just going crazy. I knew all of them except one. And so in Van Jones' team, they had been advocating for my freedom. However, they had not had the success. Cut 50, they'd been out there advocating for my freedom. But when Keene put this team together, it was a team of people that knew me.

And Brittany already knew my case because Brittany's client, Sharonda Jones was my best friend in prison and Sharonda Jones got clemency from Obama. And so she became my advocate on the outside. Sharonda was out here advocating for me. I had so many people advocating. They, my daughter put a petition out there, 270,000 people signed it. Wow. For my freedom. So how did you find out Trump said yes? Actually, it was a Wednesday. And this is crazy because it's all in the news that he's considering

it. But by this time, I've had so many false alarms that I'm really scared for real that this might be another false alarm. Because I've had so many disappointments where I thought I was going to be set free. And on Wednesdays, Megan, it's hamburger day. And it's all on the news that there's a possibility. But I went to my room and shut the door. People were saying stuff. I went to my room and I just would not People were saying stuff. I went to my room and I just would not listen no more because my heart is thudding. I said, I'm not going to miss

hamburger day. I went to the dining room and when I took my first bite, I heard my name being called and for a legal call, not knowing that Kim was on the line with the attorneys. Oh my gosh. I have chills right now. So I picked the phone up. They tell me it's a legal call. All of my attorneys are on that call. But Kim tells me, we did it. You're out of there.

I said, did what? I'm like, what? At first I tell her, I tell her, I said, it's my, because I would call her my war angel. Not just the angel, but my war angel because she was fighting like crazy for me. So many things that's too much to even go into, all of the things, the ups and downs, where we thought it was going to happen. That's why I went on to get my hamburger. But anyway,

Kim was the one who told me that I was free, that I was out of there, that I could go home. And Megan, when she told me I could go home, I don't even think, I don't remember jumping so high. It's like the ceiling was really high. I started screaming. I was jumping so high in that room. And then I could hear the women on both sides beating on the doors and screaming and crying. It was just a moment that I can never forget. It's like, it's real. I'm going home to my family. That is unbelievable. That's so encouraging. Kim thought I knew. She did not know. She was at a shoot. She thought that they had already told me that I knew. She didn't know she was the one who was telling me.

Oh, wow. Honestly, it's like the Kardashians, they're so successful and they've made so much money and they're controversial too because of the selfies and the naked and all this stuff. But if Kim Kardashian does not another thing in her life, she will go to her grave knowing she made a serious and profound difference in the life of someone who mattered, who really mattered. Thank you, Megan. And Kim and I still communicate. You know, I say Kim changed my life, but she'll tell you quickly, I changed her life too and gave her a different focus and different meaning. And because of that, so many other people have come home. So I know, Megan, that, and I've said this, that I was not delayed or denied, but I was divinely set aside for such

a time as this. Everything that happened had to be so, so terrible, even with all of the years that I was in prison. It had to be something so awful that it would catch the attention of people. It was seeing a face. It was seeing me and seeing my family, not just reading a story, but it was the effect of my image and my voice being out there and people hearing my story. That's what changed the culture. That's what changed it. It was the catalyst for a huge movement that was going to take place. Many have said that my case, my release from prison became the catalyst for the successful passage, the bipartisan passage of the First Step Act that President Trump signed into law. And I never take anything for granted, Megan, because no matter what, my clemency was granted. It was granted. And the granted of my clemency caused a domino effect

in culture of people seeing that this is wrong, that we have such a terribly broken system. It took away the stigma of the Willie Horton case. And now people are now talking seriously about criminal justice reform. And the politicians are not afraid because there was so much support, not only in this country, but around the world. The First Step Act, which is something that Van Jones also worked on with Jared and the White House. So, you know, obviously he's no he's no conservative, but and he got a lot of crap for this from from people on the left. But he he worked tirelessly, among many others, to make this a reality. So many others. Van Jones got so much flack from working with the president. You know, people, that was awful to me, because if you really genuinely care about people, I care about people. I don't care about who I'm working with. I'm willing to work with anyone to do good, anyone that's for the people. That's what I consider myself, not as a lobbyist, but as a champion for the people. And Ben Jones, you have to have some courage to go in there knowing that they're going to throw rotten

tomatoes at you for doing things for the people. And he had the courage, a lot of others too, a lot of other people were willing to cross the political divide and do what is right. And how silly that is, Megan, the person that can get this done, but you're not willing to work with them. Well, then you're not really being true to your call. And Van Jones, I mean, I am aware that Van Jones had threats on his life for doing this. And let's keep in mind that the first step act that he was trying to you know push with jared and others it passed the senate 87 to 12 it passed the house 358 to 36 i mean this was an overwhelmingly bipartisan bill and uh i mean it had people supporting it from kamala harris to ted cruz you know the the the aclu the fraternal order of police like this is this is quite a piece of legislation.

And now this act for which Trump gets no credit reduces mandatory minimum sentences for a number of drug-related crimes. It allows judges to circumvent federal mandatory minimum sentences for nonviolent offenders when they see fit. It expands rehabilitative opportunities for federal prisoners. It ends

the so-called three strikes mandatory life sentences for defendants facing a third drug conviction acceptance in when they've been a violent felon and so on. It does. It's it's humane. It writes humanity and humane treatment of humans into the law. Because these are humans. And I want to tell you, I don't know if you know this, Megan, but at first, the very first step act that was being presented to the president did not have sentencing reform in it. But it was after seeing my case, and if you go back and you look at the news clips when he did the press conference, he talks about me and asking them to put sentencing reform in. He said he does not want to see another case like Alice Johnson's because the first time when Kim and Sean took my case into the Oval Office and I've said that Oval Office became the courtroom, even though she was a famous person bringing it to the president.

I had to be a worthy candidate to get this still. It wasn't just... Of course. It had to... So when the layers were pulled back, he couldn't believe that I actually got life for what I did, because whatever might be written or what may have appeared in newspapers after my sentencing, he looked at the actual paperwork to say what I was convicted of and what I did. And little did I know, and that was on my birthday. I just had a birthday to May 30th, but she went on my birthday and seven days later running across the road three, but that, that caused a chain reaction. My case did to literally touch the heart of a president. Because that's, you know, he was,

as he said, one of the people that did it his own way. Well, you know, Alice, we're told that President Trump doesn't have a heart, that he is a racist, awful man. And you say? I say I have seen none of that, that I was able to approach President Trump about other cases, and he granted many of those cases, many of those people freedom. And it was never just Alice Johnson has these cases. I submitted over 100 cases to the president, I mean, to the pardon attorney's office, to the White House, personally myself. After Vietnam, I worked nonstop on cases. And he brought me into that Oval Office a number of times and asked me to tell him about these cases. Wow. I didn't know that. That's amazing.

And these people are set free, are at home today. Pardons, clemencies, things, people that would never have gotten out of prison. I was able to literally speak to the president personally about these cases. So you asked me, what do I think? I thank God for this opportunity to go before the president the way someone went for me, because at that time, Kim went, it was not popular to go and she went anyway. And when I went, I don't care about the popularity. I don't care about being counseled. I don't care about anything but the people, about justice. I don't care anything about but mercy and helping these people the way that I

was helped. It was only deserving people. And any of the people that they looked that I helped were all very deserving people that I wish I could have helped a thousand more people. But, you know, I just timed and permit resources and permit. But what I could do while I could do it, I did it. Can we spend one minute since we've built up this whole story on the moment you walked out of federal prison? Yes. Well, it was an hour after Kim, I hung the phone up from Kim. An hour and a half later, I heard my name over the loudspeaker saying, Alice Marie Johnson, report to R&D with all of your property. When that came over the loudspeaker, there was a cheer.

This prison held 1,600 women. There was a cheer that went up all over three buildings with them separated, you know, with these women. A cheer went up like crazy. Everybody was screaming. And as I walked out the door, every window had women in it, beating with cups, beating with their hands, stomping. I'm not kidding. It felt like the ground was moving. It was like an earthquake. And when I looked up at them, they were all crying and screaming, Miss Alice, we love you. Don't forget about us. And when I made the motion to throw a kiss at them, pull my pull, not my kiss, but pull my heart out of my chest and throw it to them. The ground was shaking. They were stomping and screaming. And when I left out, I had to pass by to get to my family, the camp, which was a lower security health, about 250 women. Every woman, every staff member was lined up outside that prison and they were doing the

same thing, screaming my name. We love you. Don't forget about us. Oh my God. I'm feeling emotional today, Alice. You're bringing the tears. That's the scene I carry in my heart. And I, I made a vow in my heart that I would never stop fighting for them. I would never forget about them. And I have not, I literally have used my, my life to, to uplift them, to tell my story and their stories and elevate their faces. Even the organization that I founded is for video, is for having storytelling to lift these faces up of the people you may never see. Big finish next.

Don't go away. You never lost your positivity, your optimism, your belief in the power of God, your hope. And I saw that firsthand when I watched you at the Republican National Convention. You wound up speaking at the RNC in this barn burner. And we have a clip. I want the audience to hear it. Listen here. I was once told that the only way I would ever be reunited with my family would be as a corpse. But by the grace of God and the compassion of President Donald John Trump, I stand before you tonight and I assure you I'm not a ghost. I am alive. I am well. And most importantly, I am free. When President Trump heard about me, about the injustice of my story, he saw me as a person. He had compassion and he acted free in body thanks to President Trump, but free in mind thanks to the almighty God. I was not delayed or denied. I was destined for such a time as this. That's what our president, Donald Trump, did for me. And for that, I will be forever

grateful. God bless you. God bless President Trump. And God bless America. Wow. Wow. I mean, just the fact that you can say God bless America after all you've been through and the injustice of your sentence, you can still hold on to any sort of a patriotic sentiment says a lot about you. Thank you, Megan. I know that we have the greatest. I live in the greatest country in the world. And we as a country have survived many things in our life. We've experienced dark moments in time. I've experienced some of the darkest moments being locked behind bars, told that it's going to always be like this. And really, as a country, we are facing dark moments right now. But we have hope. We have hope that things would change. As my mama said, out of something bad, something always good can come out of it. What was different when you got out after 21 years? You look around and it's like coming

up from a submarine. You periscope up and what did you see that was different? This technology, there was absolutely no internet when I went to prison. So everything with these little phones, I was so afraid of my phone when they gave me that phone. Your instincts were dead on, by the way. Yeah. I was afraid of that phone. But now I'm like everyone else, I'm texting too. But one thing I don't like is all of the FaceTiming. And I made my grandchildren, they're not allowed to do all that FaceTime and come see me. Let's visit.

Let's talk. That's right. I don't want to have an image. I want to hug. And it's just different. But, you know, honestly and truly, it's different out here, too. There's a whole different political culture out here. It didn't used to be so polarized.

Now I see everything along partisan lines. People used to fuss and fight while they were in session and then go out and they could all have dinner together. It wasn't so personal. And that saddened me to see how polarized things are. And it saddened me too, for people to tell me how I'm supposed to feel. I don't feel like that. And they think I'm nuts when I say, I don't feel like that. That's a big thing I learned in prison because I was in there with every different faith group. And I'm going to tell you every different faith group, every time I got ready to do something, rallied to help me because I did not care what your faith was, what your orientation. I didn't care. People were people. And that's what they saw me as a nurturer and a person that was fair and who saw them, not just saw them, but I listened to them, to their ideas.

So I coming out here, those lessons have followed me from prison to out here. I don't change according to what group of people I'm with. I don't change who I am because I'm speaking to Megyn Kelly. This is who I am. Now, are you having burgers still? Are you getting the good burger now or are you back on the meals that you could never get in prison that you probably thought about for many years. I've never got a good juicy steak. I've graduated from the hamburger, too. I love the juicy steak. And what what when you look around your life now, obviously family, of course, but is there something that you really appreciate now that you didn't before? I appreciate just opening my door and being able to walk out. I really, really appreciate. I take more baths than probably most people because for over two decades, I could only take a shower.

And I still can't break myself of this. I still open the refrigerator and marvel at just being able to take out of the refrigerator. I don't think I'll ever get past just being thankful and noticing things that people don't notice. Even during the pandemic, I was locked down and isolated for many, many years from my family. But the thing I appreciated so much, I could pick the phone up and call them. And at that point I could do some FaceTiming, but I have this liberty. You don't appreciate liberty and freedom until it's taken away from you. And so there's not a day that goes by. Even now, I wake up sometimes in the morning, Megan, and I'll just stare at my ceiling because for over two decades, I always stared at a bunk bed over my head. So I just, I don't take nothing, absolutely nothing for granted. I don't think that freedom will ever get old to me.

Alice Marie Johnson, thank you so much for telling us your story. I'm honored to meet you and to know you. Thank you, Megan. Thank you so much too for having me on today. I want you to know, Megan, I've been, I started following things that you were doing and, you know, just keeping my eyes on you. I'm so glad that you're doing what you're doing. I really have been binging. I've been really, really enjoying them. And I feel like watching them. I'm just watching what I used to be used to, just news. I'm honored, honestly, with all the time that's been stolen from you that you would give any of the time you now are enjoying to me is a true honor, Alice. Thank you for being so strong and so uplifting and just bringing this light even into my world today and my listeners' world. I mean, if you can overcome what you have overcome with this kind of an attitude and forgive those who have trespassed against you, so can we all. Amen.

Go ahead and subscribe now. Download five stars and give me a written write up so that I get your feedback on Alice. And in the meantime, have a great day. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.