The Megyn Kelly Show - All the LIES in Karmelo Anthony Case From “The View,” with VDH, and Former FBI Special Agent Says She's 75% Confident There Will Be Arrest in Guthrie Case | Ep. 1345

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

Megyn Kelly begins the show with the latest developments in the Karmelo Anthony case, the hiring of a high-profile new legal team, Sunny Hostin's disgusting and misleading claims about the trial on The View, the efforts to inject race into the case despite the jury's verdict, and more. Then, Victor Davis Hanson, author of "The Counterrevolution," joins to discuss the lies being spread about the Karmelo Anthony case, from Hostin's comments on The View to Team Anthony's changing narrative after the verdict, how it fits into the pattern of racialization in other high-profile criminal cases, Weather Underground co-founders Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn spotted in the third row at Barack Obama's library opening, recent reports involving Bryon Noem continuing to message a dominatrix after his fetish was revealed, the ongoing allegations on bizarre behavior that are still surfacing, and more. Then, James Hamilton, former FBI and security expert, and Maureen O’Connell, host of "Best Case Worst Case," join to discuss bombshell new reporting in the Nancy Guthrie case, the contents of a second note allegedly sent after her disappearance, what the note may reveal about her fate, how the note's tone sounds "feminine," what the unusual language may reveal about the sender's relationship to the case, questions surrounding whether the FBI should’ve paid the ransom, whether authorities are close to an arrest, and more.     Hanson- https://www.amazon.com/Counterrevolution-Fall-Donald-Trump-Movement/dp/1541607821 O'Connell- https://m.youtube.com/@bigcitydan Hamilton- https://www.hamiltonsecuritygroup.com/   Relief Factor: Reclaim your mobility and celebrate your freedom from aches this year by grabbing your $17.76 3-week QuickStart at https://ReliefFactor.com or by calling 800-4-RELIEF. Byrna: Go tohttps://Byrna.com or your local Sportsman's Warehouse today. Supersure Insurance: Upgrade your business insurance to a year-round SuperAgency at https://Supersure.com/Megyn Birch Gold: Text MK to 989898 and get a free America 250 silver round with qualifying purchase.     Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKelly Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShow Instagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShow Facebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at New East. Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. We have major developments today in the Nancy Guthrie case, as there are new reports about the ransom notes. We'll have a full breakdown later in the show. FYI, our pal Howard Bloom, broke some major news on this whole thing. And now every reporter is running around repeating his news, claiming that they broke it. It's very annoying. Howard Bloom broke this story. news. Okay? It's not that hard to credit somebody when they break something. And for that matter, if you want to go back a little further, someone on X who goes by nerdy addict actually was the first person to break this news. And we brought it to you at the time. And remember, we had this whole discussion like, we don't know who this person is. They go by nerdy addict, but we found them very reliable in this case. And here is their reporting. Well, guess what? It panned out. And now all these other reporters are running around claiming it as their own. And it's not. It's

Not. Nerdy addict had it first, but in the sort of mainstream press, Howard Bloom had a big exclusive and no one's crediting him, which is annoying. Okay, anyway. Also, you will not believe who showed up at former President Obama's new presidential library opening. Think as radical as they come. We'll get into it. And Christy Noam's husband is back in the headlines. Apparently the rehab did not work. But first, there is more news today in the Carmelo Anthony case. Yesterday, the stand-with-carmelho coalition announced that Carmelo had a new team of six lawyers who will be handling the appeal of his murder conviction free of charge. You remember he said he was indigent, penniless, and he needed court-appointed lawyers. Well, he got

free help that's not court-appointed. It's like a dream team of lawyers who want to help people aggrieved racially from the sound of it. They include people like Gary Bledsoe, who happens to be the president of the Texas NAACP, someone named Brooke Clues, who happens to be not only a lawyer, but chief of staff to Benjamin Crump, who is basically an Al Sharpton type,

and Sean Derdea, whose claim to fame is getting a hung jury for an alleged trend to Aragua member charged with murder. Okay, so that's his new legal team who thinks they're going to be able to turn around this just conviction. Good luck. Good luck. That organization writing in a press release, quote, our responsibility is to determine whether a legal error occurred and to ensure that every issue supported by the record is fully and vigorously presented on appeal.

That's great. We've already had a full trial and it was entirely supported the verdict that the jury came to. So, you know, you're going to do what all criminal defendants do and try to appeal it and try to find some scurless ground arguing that he didn't get a fair trial in one way, shape, or form. And he's entitled to that appeal. It's not going to go anywhere. That's news, I think, to Sunny Hosten over at the view, who knows better? She's a former federal prosecutor. She knows very well what she says here is total nonsense. Watch. You're supposed to have a jury of your peers, and you're not supposed to just strike someone because they're black. And in this case, they gave the reasoning that their educators, and this happened, these were high school students, and this happened at a school track meet. So they couldn't be impartial because of that. I don't think that's an appropriate reason. It might be the best ones too.

Yeah, I don't think it's an appropriate reason to strike black jurors, especially when it's a young black teenager on trial, and especially when that particular area is made up of 10. of an African-American community. So I don't think he got a jury of his peer. So I think on appeal, there is a legitimate thing, a legitimate reason. I'm sorry, but that is a blatant misstatement of the law. As she knows, the Supreme Court has specifically held that you have no right to have individuals of your same race on your jury. That's black letter law now.

She knows that. Why is she doing this? Why is she saying that? The same reason we have Jasmine Crockett and these other race hustlers trying to stir up racial hatred to try to suggest that you have some sort of constitutional right. If you're a white person to an all-white jury, oh, great. Try arguing that to an appellate court. Well, the same is true if you're a black person. You're not entitled to an all-black jury or Hispanic entitled to all-Hispanic. What the F? You're not even entitled to a partially black or white jury. You're not even entitled to a partially black or white jury. You're not entitled to any racial makeup on your jury. You're just entitled to a fair one. And they can't strike a juror because he or she is black or white or old, any of the protected categories, but you're not entitled to have a jury that matches the racial makeup of yourself or your preference. All right.

Now, there were no black individuals on the 12-person jury that tried the Austin Metcalf, Carmelo-Anthony case. But there were three racial minorities, including Asian and Indian. Indian and all of the 18-person jury, like if you include the alternates, of those six were minorities, six. It's also true that the judge allowed the prosecution to strike three black female jurors, but they said this was due to women's potential bias as educators not due to their race. That's the prosecution's only obligation or whichever side is striking the juror.

If the other side says, you know, we want to know why. you say this is why and the judge will make a call and sometimes the judges do say I don't buy that but here they said we're not striking them due to race we're striking them because they're educators and we don't want a bunch of teachers on this jury this happened at a high school there would be all sorts of reasons why you wouldn't want teachers there they think they know better they might know the potential um you know witness list members I've said before I one of the things they always told us to look out for before we tried cases was you don't want a mini expert going in there on your jury. So, you know, you're trying a case about welding. You don't want an expert welder on your jury. He's going to think he knows better. You want the jury to only accept the evidence you put in front of them, you and your opposing counsel.

So you would not want a bunch of educators because they'd have their own thoughts about what the traditions are at the track meets and, you know, how this particular thing was likely to work based on their experience. No, no, no. You haven't been certified as an expert. you are being called there to be a juror, an impartial arbiter of facts. So it makes perfect sense to me that either side might not want educators sitting on the jury. And it made perfect sense to this judge as well, who knew that under Supreme Court precedent,

when challenged, prosecutors must have a neutral explanation for excluding a juror that has nothing to do with race. That's all. And the judge in Carmelo Anthony's case, John Roach, absolutely believed that's what happened here, as we just heard him espouse on his interview with WFAA. Like I told you before, as long as I followed the law, I sleep well at night. And I'm telling you, I follow the law in that case. Did I know what the perception was going to be? Sure.

I knew in the back of my mind what the perception was going to be. But I'm not here to satisfy perceptions. I'm not here to satisfy agendas. I'm not here to do any of those things. I'm here to follow the law. And I did it to a T. And I'm proud of that. Very proud of that.

Look, this guy is no nonsense. And that's going to come back to help this verdict and the prosecution, which will be fighting to sustain it on appeal. This is not some moron who got placed on the bench for politics. You can tell. This guy's a serious jurist. And he knew what he was doing. And this is not the first time, I'm sure, he's had a defendant raise complaints like this. But Sonny Hosten's complaints didn't just stop with a jury.

actually. She says she's still not convinced. The misleading this went on for five minutes, okay? I won't subject you to the whole segment because each moron there of the view weighed in. I mean, truly, one is dumber than the next. Sunny Houston's not dumb. This is willful misinformation on her part meant to push a racial agenda that she has that ABC has been allowing for far too long. This is willful misinformation. All right, here she is trying to convince the national audience at ABC that Carmelo Anthony did act in self-defense. She's not convinced that the jury was right in finding otherwise. Watch.

I also think we have to look at self-defense here because there seems to be two systems of justice at play in this country. And there have been for a very long time. I was part of the system. So I understand that, and I believe that to be true. In this case, this young man, you heard him say, he put his hands on me, and I told him not to. This, the kid that died, and I have so much empathy for him and his family's loss, that kid was 200 pounds. This kid was 130 pounds. And so, and the other kid was also taller than he is.

He was the only black kid under the tent. and the victim here had his twin brother with him, who was also a very large person. If you don't fear for your life, if you weigh 130 pounds, I weigh 130 pounds. Facing somebody that's 200 pounds, I would be terrified of that. I don't understand why self-defense was rejected by this jury.

He asked him. He dared him to put his hands on him. Anthony dared Metcalfe to put his hands on him. He wasn't afraid. He was provoking him, you dishonest hack. He went in there and intentionally provoked him. One of the many reasons why self-defense was not available to him, why it did not fly. You cannot claim self-defense when you provoked the action against yourself.

You cannot taunt someone, beg someone to lay hands on you, and then when they do so, stab them in the heart and say, oh, gee, I was just defending myself. You provoked it. The self-defense law understands that. And separately, the jury understands that. Austin's dad, Jeff Metcalf, who was gagged for the course of this trial, like everybody else, and not able to defend his son, the murder victim, as he was being defamed by people like Jasmine Crockett, he is on a bit, a small media tour. He's not looking for fame. He's looking to rehabilitate his sweet son's image.

He did nothing wrong, nothing. And villains like Sonny Hosten are trying to argue, oh, he's so intimidating with his, you know, big frame to 130. You know what? You know what you wouldn't do, Sunny? You're 130 pounds? Good for you. I'm 120.

You know what I wouldn't do? I would not go up to somebody who was 80. pounds more than I was and say, do it. Lay hands on me. Do it. I wouldn't do that. I would understand that there was a chance that he might actually do that. And then if I overreacted in response, I could be heading away to jail for 35 years like Carmelo Anthony is. So stop. And by the way, no, absolutely no accounting made in her little summary there for the fact that this was not a woman being attacked by two hulking football players. This was one track meet participant, confronting another track meet participant,

provoking him saying, go ahead, lay hands on me. And then when he did so as gently enough that he didn't even knock Carmelo into the guy next to him while they were seated, he got a knife in the heart. And she knows very well that all self-defense, all self-defense has to be proportionate to the threat You cannot respond to a push with a knife to the heart. That is inherent in the law, which she knows. But back to Austin's father, Jeff Metcalf. So he's been trying to get the truth out there about what actually happened here because

it's just the disinformation. I showed you that reporter Mimi from the Breakfast Club, which is a popular show, the dereliction of duty in trying to actually confront in that situation, and Carmelo Anthony's parents with facts. Gently, kindly, I understand they're suffering too. You'd have to handle it gingerly rather than just allow disinformation to go out to all your listeners. How irresponsible is that? So Austin's dad is on the Will Kane show yesterday and was asked to respond to Sonny Hosten,

and he did. Watch. A lot of big voices in the media have talked about this, said, I don't understand. I could play a clip for you. I'm not going to have Sonny Hosten on the view saying, I don't understand how this couldn't possibly be self-defense. So what is your judgment of all these people in the media that have spoken on the case? Well, they're just like anybody else. They don't know me. They don't know Hunter, Austin.

They don't know Carmelo. They're looking for their 15 minutes of fame or their click bait or their clicks. They're looking to monetize the death of my son. I really wish they wouldn't speak about at all. because one, if that woman said that, she has no idea about the facts of the case, but she wants to spew her public opinion on a platform that reaches millions of people every day. Do I have that platform? No, but today I have a little platform to say what I'd like. She is completely wrong.

And if they want to take me and call me and ask me to be able to view with them, I would gladly fly me up there and let me talk to all of you. Oh, do it. I dare you. Do it. I dare you. Do it. if those women of the view have any spine whatsoever, they'll do it. They'll take him out. This is a grieving dad of an actual murder victim at 17 years old. And he's offering to come on your show and talk truth about what happened in this case. Do it if you have any heart or spine whatsoever.

Joining me now with reaction is Victor Davis-Hanson. He's a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and author of the forthcoming book, the counter-revolution, the fall and rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. Our founders believed that freedom was not just a word. It was a way of life. The freedom to move forward, the freedom to pursue what matters most, the freedom to live fully. But pain has a way of taking those freedoms away. And if you've ever dealt with it, you know that's true. And that's why a relief factor exists. I felt the difference personally. Relief factor is a 100% drug-free research-based supplement designed to help support a healthy inflammatory response,

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Your 17.76. Three-week quick start is ready for you. Visit Reliefactor.com or call 800 for relief. VDH, great to see you. This is infuriating because, as I said, Sonny Hosten, at least, she's the only lawyer of the group. She knows better. So she's just defaulting to her racial priors, which is Achilles' heel for her on every story. She sees everything through a racial prism, even now the law.

And it's downright dangerous to the disinformation campaign being unleashed on the American people right now around this case. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think all of us went to high school and we went to track meets in football games. and we understood there were two different sides, and sometimes there were tents where parents would meet, but no one went to those events with a knife, armed, concealed weapon in your backpack, and then no one went to the other side or to a group

that he knew might be hostile or might feel that you were uninvited, and then when asked to leave, would not leave, and then almost dared people to force him to leave. leave. And then when somebody tapped him, took out a weapon and stabbed it, not in his shoulder, not his leg, but right through his heart, and killed him and then left the scene, did not say, I'm sorry, or I didn't mean to do it, let's see if we can stop the bleeding, just left. And then admitted to what he did to law enforcement. So it was a pretty open and shut case. He went to the

tracked me armed and he you can make make the argument he intended to use that or he wouldn't have brought it if he got into a situation which he created so it was pretty open and shut but I'm not even sure there was been a lot of different conflicted press reports some say that he waited 160 I don't know what he weighed but the idea that there was a weight disparity is not really applicable when you push somebody and then you I I mean, when somebody gently pushes you and then you take out a weapon, the other thing I never understood, they kept saying it was just a knife, it was just a knife, it wasn't, I heard that for about two weeks, it was just a small pocket.

It doesn't really matter, and it's not a murder weapon. Rock can be a murder weapon. A piece of stick can be a murder weapon. It doesn't really matter that it was a knife and not a gun or it was this, the blade was this long, or not that long. So they've tried every single, every single ruse because they can't confirm. the reality that there's two young men, one person is not where he's supposed to be, he's gently asked to leave, he does not want to leave, he wants to make a point, and he came with a weapon. And so I don't know what else to say other than, it's a larger commentary

on racial relations. Ever since the Obama years, I think the idea was we were very optimistic that race was becoming incidental, not essential to who we all are. And now it just seems to me when affirmative action morphed into diversity, equity, and inclusion, and then the George Floyd, and then it was just a focus, a fixation, addiction to racial disparities, and then it was statute topping and toppling and name-changing and get rid of the SAT and a quality of result, and we became obsessed with it, and I think what happened, people got, they were wrong and met a pressure, that this was going to be the norm. And then when we had a change of administration, people, whether it was DEI in the Defense Department or the Ivy League and Stanford and other universities reinstating the SAT and coming to their senses, then everybody got very angry in the DEI community.

Well, we were in control. We had reinvented America. Now you're doing this to us. So it just further exacerbated. And I don't think it's going to lessen until everybody, according to their station, just says race is. incidental to me. I don't care what you call me. Call me any name you want, but I don't really particularly care about race. I'm just going to treat people equally. And if you can't, then you're the racist. And I think, I feel a change in the country on all these issues,

the trans issue, the DEI issue, the border issue that everybody, and they're looking at Europe too, and they're just saying this is not sustainable in a democracy to have a return to tribalism and tribal chauvinism. It's a pre-civilizational idea, and it's not compatible historically with consensual government. The historian Thucydides tries to explain why you had Greek city states

and why they are so sophisticated. And one thing he says is, before these emerged, people identified by their tribal affiliations and they were migratory. And what he's trying to say is that when you identify by your ethnic clan

or your superficial appearance, You can't do it. It reminds me when I was in Libya, and I asked somebody, you're the fifth wealthiest oil producer in the world. Why are the roads full of potholes? Why is everything so decrepit? And my Soviet-era minder turned to me, and he said, Mr. Hansen, we hire our first cousin. We hire our first cousin over anybody else. End of story. And he was a Libyan official. What he was saying is that we still, for all of our communism, were ethnically tribal, and that's the bane of civilization. And here we see it coming back again and again. But I think this time, Sani Haasen doesn't realize that there is a lot of people that are fatigued with it all.

And I hope that they understand that, because I don't think we're going to go back to that aberration after George Floyd for four or five years. I just don't think it's going to happen. Well, it's so maddening, Victor, because the way they're talking about this case is as if Austin Metcalf stabbed and killed Carmelo Anthony. You think Sonny Hosten would be out there arguing it was self-defense if this exact scenario went down, exact scenario, but reverse the races of Anthony and Metcalf. Zero chance. There would have been riots on the street about this case from the moment it happened. And at this trial, there was. would have been protest outside to make sure the jury came to a guilty verdict. There would have

been celebrations when the guilty verdict was read. There would be absolutely no empathy for the killer because he's white and he killed a black, you know, young boy. That's what they would be saying. But because simply because Austin Metcalf was lighter skinned than Carmelo Anthony, they've changed the entire narrative to make him a villain, not the victim, and to make Carmelo Anthony into this poor sweet child who just felt threatened by the very large football player whom he clearly provoked and whom he stabbed in the heart taking his life instantly and giving him zero chance to fight for his own life, Victor. I think also there's a larger context. And when I meant the word fatigue, when the juicy small at farce, I remember Kamala Harris

said this is a modern day lynching. And then we had the, the Ferguson situation, hands up, don't shoot. That was a complete lie. That was demonstrably on true as Eric Holder's DOJ proved. Sunny Houston was part of that. I know she was part of that. She was on the set at CNN with her little hands up and her little fake sign. I remember that.

And then Trayvon Martin was not a diminutive little teen. He was out looking for trouble. And he hit George Zimmerman. And that was one against the other. And he was hitting him in the head. even Photoshop the police file later and they docked I think CNN doctored the 911 call. And so and then we had the Duke Lacrosse and then we had going way back to Tijuana Brawley.

But my point is that they have a predictable pattern. Even the most controversial George Floyd, it was very clear whatever Officer Shalvin did at the very instant that this thing hit the news that you could not say the father. And you could not say that he was a prison convict. He had a long rap sheet. He had engaged in a home invasion where one of his friends had put a knife to someone's, a young woman who was defenseless to her abdomen. You could not say that he was in the process allegedly, and I think convincingly, passing counterfeit currency. You couldn't say that if he wasn't on fentanyl, if he didn't resist arrest, if he had just got in the car as he was asked, none of this would have.

That was all taboo. And then we had all of this misdirection that blacks are inordinately killed by on-armed blacks far disproportionate to their, you know, arrest. And we had the Washington Post come out and say, actually, of all the people, 11 million people who were arrested, there is no difference in racial proportions of those who were on-armed who were shot by police. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that the media, the whole race industry, they've done it so many times. It's like crying wolf. And it's sad because there may be some case where the circumstances are different, but they don't understand the effect that they're having on the general population. And I don't confine it, Megan, to the white population. I live in a community that's 95% Hispanic.

And I can tell you that on every one of these issues, they are tired of it. They are tired of. As one person said to me not too long ago, why are these wealthy white people attacking the ice? Do you know, Victor, that 45% of ICE officers are Mexican-American and their middle class, and they're just trying to protect their communities from being overrun by illegals who are a large number of are criminal? So what I'm getting at is that the whole fixation on race and illegal immigrants, immigration, Trant, all of these issues, they're not sustainable. And people, you know, they're, the Democrat, just to get final, the Democrats should run away with these midterms. They always do, 38 out of the last 41 midterm, the end party in the White House loses seats. And I don't know whether, I don't know what it is, but their popularity is going down, down, down, down the Democrats. And it's because of the candidates that they are nominating. that resonate these issues we're talking about,

a Graham Platner or Tel Rico. And I don't think there's a constituency for it. I really don't. I think people are really angry and they're not talking about it because they understand that it's career ending or it's dangerous or you get social pressure. But there is, it's not over with the anger about what's happening in the country.

It's not just Trump. It's still there. And people are saying, And when you look at that picture of the European, it's kind of a worthless parliament, it doesn't have much power. But when you saw two to one vote to end illegal immigration and people were actually in Europe got up and said, send them back, whether you agree with that or not, that's incredible for Europe. And you can see these parties. You can see in the Western Hemisphere, conservative victories in Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Argentina. That whole leftist paradigm that we had really exported all over the world, the D.I. was born here,

and that whole idea, whether it was through USAID or whether it was our popular culture, it doesn't work in a consensual society. It just pits people against each other in a tribal fashion, and it's a collectivism. Everybody belongs to a collective. There's no individuality. And I think the universities, I work on a campus, and you should hear, Megan, the professors off the rest of, record, off the record. They're all left wing and they all say after we got rid of the SAT, after George Floyd, I can't teach my classes because I have to either reduce the workload or I have to introduce new gut courses or I have to do what I did, 80% A's. And that's the

biggest problem right now, Yale, Harvard, 80% A's. And you say, why are you doing that? And they say privately, I don't want to be statistically accused of being a racist and when particular people don't get the grade that they like, and they show a pattern of being into a particular group. And so it's affected everything. It's permeated the entire society, but it didn't have the effect the architects wanted. It's creating a backlash.

Yeah. Well, and now they'll complain about the backlash. I mean, Sunny Hosten lives in a mansion. She posted pictures of it herself publicly. So that's how we know. It's spectacular. She makes millions of dollars a year. She talks about how her son, when he started running through the neighborhood, like he was

training for track, I think. She mentioned yesterday that he was on the track team. And she went to the local police station to say, that's my boy. That black boy is my boy. Don't you arrest him for running while black? Because I'm sure in her very tony Westchester village, they arrest all black people who are running, you know, people who are related to Sunny Austin. Sure, sure they do.

She's not grateful to a country that helped her son, that allowed her son to go to Harvard. We're still all racists. All the jury is in Texas. Of course, the white people, they're going to be racist. That's why you have to have blacks. And it's not just universities doing this or media. The story you told reminded me when my daughter was in, I guess it was fourth grade, That's when the Chauvin trial was happening.

And we were still in the city in our woke private schools. And her teachers made the class read a New Zilla article about the verdict against Derek Chauvin. It was like a one-page article. So they did. All those fourth grade girls read the article. And then the two teachers said, you know, have like the main and then the assistant. Let's talk about it. And the first girl raised her hand and said,

Oh, no, first the teacher said, there is a major problem in this country, massive problem, with cops killing black men. Okay, so that's the premise to start the discussion. So one girl raised her hand and said, wasn't he resisting arrest? And the teacher said, they always say that to defend their actions, like these evil white cops. And then my daughter raised her hand and said, wasn't he on a lot of drugs at the time? And the second teacher said,

this conversation is making me very uncomfortable and I am shutting it down right now. Of course, you know. Disallowed the discussion amongst a bunch of nine-year-old girls who had been assigned this article. The girls weren't watching Fox News. They were reading what the teachers gave them. It was in the article, and the girls had some very good questions about the complications of that case, which stood out to even nine-year-old girls immediately.

And rather than allowing them to flesh it out, it was shut down as verboden. I mean, that in a nutshell is what was wrong with those schools and what is wrong with universities today. And what leads to a person like Sonny Hosten being allowed a national perch, notwithstanding her racial blindness. I think everybody, I think you're right. I think people got to realize this is not a grassroots phenomenon among poor blacks or middle class blacks. This is a top-down media, academics, professors K-12 who create these ideologies and then it filters down. So Kamala Anthony, all he knows is that if he goes to that track meet and he has a knife and he goes where he's not supposed to be, and he gets in an altercation, the larger discourse is going to allow him to make an argument or he won't be held accountable.

In other words, DEI takes away all deterrent fears. It just says, whatever happens to you, you're going to play this race card, and you're going to get an exception. And they think that because it's all over the popular media. And Victor, for good the interruption, but it also teaches racial grievance in the first place. It does. It teaches it at the very beginning, and it teaches it all through the university. And, you know, it's one reason why people say, why are the universities in such failures, and it's an act of co-mission and omission. They teach so much of this pop psychology, racial stuff, dash studies courses, that these kids come out ignorant and arrogant, and they don't really have skills,

especially in the social sciences and the humanities, but they have these ideologies that have been drummed into them. And then they reach the real world, and in the real world, you don't go across into an opposing team's private tent, and you don't dare somebody who's bigger than you, and you don't come armed, but that's what you would do if you filtered down this message from elites. That's why I mentioned the ice.

All these very wealthy, and I see it all, when I go to work in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, you see all these signs and protests about immigrants. They're all very, very wealthy people. And not too long ago, I saw one when I was walking on campus, and I said to her, you should come to where I live. And I live one quarter mile from Serenios, Nortenos, and M-13 people. And most of them are not here legally. And you should see what happens when that occurs. You should try to go to a public social welfare dialysis clinic or an ER. And what happens to a poor Mexican-American citizen when all of a sudden it's flooded with people who speak mixoteca Baja, a language that's not even Spanish, in their communities, and they don't have their

resources. But this ideology from very wealthy, privileged people has done so much harm. And that's what the real issue is. So all those people on the view are multi-millionaires. And they talk as if they're socialists on the barricades, but they're never subject to the consequences of their own ideology. None of them. They talk about crime, but they all have security, and they all have enough money. They're not worried about California taxes. They're all, and I think people in the West are seeing that it's a phenomenon that can't go on, because if it goes on, the system that we, you know, we live in a private property, market capitalism, consensual society that's pluralistic. And if you attack that long enough and you try to undermine it and history is not very forgiving.

And I think all of us, whatever your politics are right now, you think if I identify by my tribal affinity or my gender or my sexual orientation, and that's my primary identification, then I'm anti-civilizational. a retrograde tribalist and people are going to have a legitimate objection to what I'm doing. And I think that's where we are now as a nation. We're saying that this goes on, we can't sustain ourselves. It's kind of like 1850. 1850, people said, we tried to deal with slavery. We had it in the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was censored. All men are created equally. And then we said, we can't deal with it. And you could see why, because the 13 colonies would have split apart immediately. We put it off long enough, and this is not sustainable,

and they had that 700,000 people killed. And I think right now it's just a force multiplier, the blue state model, this whole therapeutic stuff, the government fraud, but all of this emphasis on tribalism and open borders, and people are saying this doesn't work, you people. I have to say, like, I look at what's happening, is because this Carmelo Anthony trial

and the reaction to it has been so insane that it's just a very stark reminder that the left has not abandoned these radical notions about the role race plays in any and all aspects of society. And it makes

me so angry because I feel like no one rioted when a 17-year-old black boy shoved a knife in the heart of a 17, year old white boy. No whites were out there chanting white lives matter and, you know, saying the system is set up against whites and so on. And, you know, that there has been a massive change in the bias.

Try growing up a white boy today versus a black girl. All the advantages are with the latter in today's day and age when it comes to getting into universities and getting jobs and so on. Nobody was raising that. People just said, what happened in this case? can we make sure this kid gets a fair trial and that it's fair to the decedent as well. That's what happened. And then the jury came to its verdict. But now there's this activist class

that's acting as though the races are reversed and somehow white people did something terrible to a black boy. And that's just not what happened. Like that's the kind of stuff that's going to radicalize people. It's not just that. Everyone behaved themselves.

No one made this racial. Don't make this racial because it doesn't end well for you race agitators. And the same thing happened with the Ukrainian, the poor girl that was murdered her throat cut on the subway. You saw this murderer eye her, then he cut her throat,

and then five people walked right over her as she was dying. They didn't lend any assistance, and then it was disputed what he said. But I listened to the tape dozens of times. It seems like he said, I got the bit blank something, whites. And nobody rioted. Nobody said, wow, this African-American just prayed on this girl.

What we heard was from the media, oh, you have to be socially aware. She was looking at her. She was fixated on her phone. She wasn't aware of the circumstances in which she was in. What were the circumstances which she was in? She just wanted to take a subway ride home. And if she was attacked by somebody and there were five people right behind him, wouldn't somebody come to her aid?

Maybe they could stop him. are, you know, hold him for police, but they just tiptoed around her as she died and she bled out. It was horrific. And when you add what was going on in Europe, you know, with Henry Nowak and in Bristol, all of these things in the Western world are building, building, building, building. And it's really important that they get vented before people feel frustrated and they have no avenues of correction. So I think I...

And it's important to remind ourselves that these lunatics, Sunny Hosten, does not speak for black people. No, she doesn't. Certainly, nor does Jasmine Crockett. I mean, it's just it there she's just a terrible representative. ABC really needs to reconsider. I think so. I work at the Hoover Institution and there's four African American people who were associated with it, Tom sold, Shelby Steele, Condi Rice and Karan Skinner and they were the best the best scholars there. I mean, it has nothing to do with black people generically. It's a group of very well very well-off educated, supposedly educated elites that are drumming this up among the lower classes. And they're using actually the criminal element, they're using that element to divide us and then to get spoils from society.

And I feel bad because the people who are really warning us have been black intellectuals on the conservative side. What was going on? Tom Sol was, he was, life was threatened. to have a, you know, all of his mail had to be examined, but all those threats were coming from people on the left. And Shelby Steele was the same thing. And he's amazing. And his son, Eli's awesome too. Yeah. And Dr. mentioned Glenn Lowry. I mean, there's just Jason Riley's spectacular over the Wall Street Journal on these issues. Like, there's just, there's a long list who they don't buy into this nonsense, normal, normal people who aren't in the media too. Don't buy into this

nonsense, black or white, but you're right. It's these elites, these leftist elites who are just spewing their bile and trying to create race riots or just hatred that they'll never have to deal with, as you point out, with their guards and in their mansions and their, you know, their fancy cars driven by chauffeurs. They'll never have to deal with it. I want to keep going because there's, I just would say one last thing. This is not new. The people who were behind the Bolshevik revolution, Lenin and other people, people like Karl Marx, he was an elite. Lennon was elite, the people who were behind the French Revolution, the Jacobins, the Rose Pierre brother, they were all elites, the people behind the Spanish Revolution, they were the anarchists, on the commune, they were all elites. That's always the way it is.

It's a bunch of elite. Mondami, look at him. He's an elite. His parents, an endowed professor, a subsidized filmmaker. He gives us lectures about settler colonialism, and you think, wait a minute, you were from the 1% population in Uganda that had 65,000. percent of the economic output of that country. And no one ever said that you were a settler account. You came here to our country. What if we said you're a settler colonialist, you and your family and the Indian community? How would you like that? Then he says, I'm going to go after

wider neighborhoods that are affluent. Well, then if you should get your data of all ethnic groups in the United States, Indian Americans are the most affluent. So he should have said, I'm going after Indian American communities. They have too much money, statistically. But so what I'm getting at is when they, this is an elite driven stuff, AOC, Jasmine Crockett, even Ilyan Omar. Nobody ever says to Ilean Omar, is it true that your father was a colonel in Barid Said's corrupt government that orchestrated a genocide and the most, not all, but many or if not most of the refugees that came out were from the Saeed government that was overthrown for its crimes in the Somali,

Somaliland wars. Nobody ever says that. And maybe we shouldn't, but she sure does about other people. She's always checking everybody's background and all of these oppressions and isms and ologies. But no one ever says, well, wait a minute. The United States welcomed in 85,000 refugees from Somalia and never asked them to what degree are you involved with this government that committed genocide. Well, and also didn't ask them about all the massive fraud that they would continue to commit on us. that's the thing is like, we still let you come in. If only you had not defrauded us, you probably wouldn't be having the criminal troubles you're having now, but you're not allowed to come into our country and fleece our people and commit crimes. All right,

wait, I want to keep going. I've got to talk to you about this. Okay, because we're on the subject of elite university people who are far left and in control of the narratives that our children learn at every level. And that leads me to who was at Barack Obama's presidential library opening. But we've been covering this, and I didn't see this news until today. In the third row, Bill Ayers and his wife, Bernadine Dorn. They showed up at Barack Obama's library opening. This is the terrorist that is being referenced when people say Barack Obama used to pal around with terrorists. Bernadine, Dorn, and Bill Ayers, who are partners.

who were founders of the weather underground back in the 1970s, which was bombing federal buildings, for those of you who are young and don't know about this, I'm just going to give you a clip from a documentary on the weather underground, and it's got a young Bill Ayers in it. Okay, here it is. Terry, more than probably anyone else, represented the view that it was too late for any kind of reconciliation inside this country and that the best that we could do was to bring about a catastrophic series of actions. They had decided to set off the bomb at a non-commissioned officers dance at Fort Dix.

The idea being that there are no innocent in this war of aggression. What we wanted to do here was a hit that the United States government had ever suffered on its territory. So that man, one day when I was at Fox News, would stroll in 2014 and give me an interview. Bill Ayers, it was like one of the craziest moments of my life, Victor. We got him to Fox News. He came to the belly of the beast. We'd been ripping on it nonstop when Barack Obama had run for. for president. Barack won anyway. And he agreed to do an interview with me. It was insane.

And my assistant Abigail Fine had said, somebody said, what did you do today? She said, I babysat a terrorist in the basement of the Fox News building because we didn't want him to flee. We didn't want him to realize, wait, what am I doing here? This is a bad idea. So it came on the show. It was a very challenging interview, but very fascinating. And here's just a little bit of it. Okay, just cut a quick sound bite. Watch. How many bombings are you responsible for? Well, their underground, I think, took credit for just slightly over 20. It might be personally, I've never talked about it, never will.

Let me just tell you what I hear when I hear that. I hear you saying, you sound like, with respect, Osama bin Laden. While underground, you stole, you lied, you hid, right? Any disagreement? You stole? Onward, yes. You wrote about it in your book. We stole ID.

You stole purses. You stole wallets? Yeah. Stole money. Some. You ripped off dead babies' identities. Right. And yet the violence continued.

Just because you went underground didn't mean the violence stopped. What violence? March 1st, 1971, you bombed the U.S. Capitol. May 19th, 1972, you bombed the Pentagon. January 29, 1975, you bombed the State Department. That's what I mean by violence. What would it take to make you bomb this country again? I can't completely say no.

I would never, ever rise up in opposition in a very militant and serious way. I can't say I wouldn't. I doubt it. That's who went to Barack Obama's library opening in the third row. He wound up teaching at the University of Illinois, his wife, who is just as involved as he was in the weather underground, teaching at Northwestern Law School, Victor, third row. Everything we've said about Barack Obama was true. He's as radical as they come. He just presents as this moderate, avuncular kind of guy. Yeah, he does. And he says in his, I mean, it was reprimed.

reported he wrote if he did write the whole thing, his memoir, and Bill Ayers' house. He said that. And then what was even crazier was at that speech, I thought to myself, here they were, he has four mansions at the Chicago mansion, I think it's almost worth two million, Colorado, Hawaii, Martha's Vineyard. There were 70 to 100 million, and what are they going to say? And the first thing, one of the first thing is he had to give us a little spin on the Declaration of Independence, that we were flawed. And I thought, do you know anything? better. Yeah, he didn't understand anything that that had been a big discussion that Jefferson said, all men are created equal and we're going to try to mention slavery, even though he was a slave owner.

And five southerners, five of the 13 colonies were, you know, slave owning. Not that it was de facto outlawed, although there was some in the north. But they all said, if we don't, if we try to eliminate slavery right now, we won't have a union. The British will win because they'll pick us off one by one. and we're going to have to deal with this issue, but let's just be united for now. And that was always an issue, always. Every year they fought about it. And finally, 700,000. But all the context is gone.

He didn't mention any of that. And then when Michelle got in, she said he was dazzling, brilliant, and she listed three things, his Nobel Prize, and then she said, Obamacare, and then all of the unity. And I thought, that's all alive. What are you going to have in that $850 million? dollar flack tower. What are you going to have inside? Where are going, you know, the accomplishments or the legislation? I can't think of any other than he tore us apart. He wasn't, he wasn't. He was divisive at the beginning? Yes. Was it. Remive in the middle? The beer summer. Devisive at the end and post-presidency.

Stand by. Hold. I want to continue this, but we've got to take quick break. There is more to do on this subject and more. We will be right back, VDH. Thankfully, stays with us. Don't go away. You might already own a firearm. But what if you could start with less leaf. methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger of a loaded gun. This is where Berna comes in. That's B-Y-R-N-A. Burna's less lethal launchers are equipped with tear gas and kinetic ammunition and designed to incapacitate an attacker for up to 40 minutes. And Berna is excited to introduce the all-new compact launcher. It's sleek, it's slim, it hits like a sledgehammer. It's the same size as a smartphone, allowing women to conceal

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berna.com to find a Berna dealer partner near you. That's B-Y-R-N-A.com. 1980, you and Bernadine Dorn resurfaced. And when she turned herself in, Bernadine Dorn promised to spend her energy organizing to defeat the American Empire. And within a year of that, October 20th, 1981, was a triple homicide. Kathy Boudin learned that some of her, learned some of her very criminal tactic while she was with her weather underground. She was in the townhouse that exploded when that bomb went off, wasn't she? You adopted her child.

She's a wonderful person. Your wife, Bernadine Dorn, was asked to cooperate in that investigation. That's right. She refused. She spent seven months in jail because she refused to help the police in their investigation. She refused to speak to a grand jury. That's quite different. Why would she do that, sir?

Nine children lost their fathers that day. I agree with you. Why didn't your wife help? Grand juries are a terrible overreach of the U.S. government. She said about the Charles Manson murders of a pregnant woman and six others, quote, offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives and then eating a meal in the same room, far out. The weathermen dig Charles Manson. This is your sweetheart?

No, no, no, no, no. This is your soulmate? Your wife miraculously got to do that. a job teaching law or teaching at Northwestern University Law. And very successfully, absolutely. Which is amazing. They must be offering classes and what you can learn from your future clients. But are you surprised that you got those job offers, you and she?

Not really. I mean, I got- FBI's 10-Moss wanted list. I know. So was Angela Davis. And, you know, a lot of great people have been on that list. Okay. Welcome back to the Megan Kelly Show.

I'm back with me now. Victor Davis-Hanson. He's author of the forthcoming book, The Counter-Rour, revolution, the fall and rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. So here's just one more thing for you on Bill Ayers, who was at Barack Obama's presidential library opening, along with his wife, Bernadine Dorn, another domestic terrorist affiliated with the weather underground, both of whom wound up in academia. Axios is the one, that's where I learned that Ayers and Dorn were at Obama's. All Obama's presidency, his campaign, he distanced himself.

Oh, no, I hardly knew him. What do you mean? Bill who? No, no, no. Fox News is crazy saying I launched my campaign in his living room. It was all true. That's why he's there as the bookend on both ends of Barack Obama's presidency. And here's how Axios, I mean, today is trying to spin this thing. They write in 1995, they, meaning Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn, how the casual party at their house to introduce friends to a skinny kid with a funny name named Barack Obama. Obama. That was a quote. Then the Axios writes, that was enough for Republican operatives to seize upon when Obama ran for president in 2008. They argued Obama had ties to a man they described as a former domestic terrorist. That's 100% true, even though the support came nearly 30 years after the weather underground. You tell me, Victor, did he sound apologetic and regretful in that interview? As I just played to you, which he did. I couldn't believe he was A couple years ago. He was smiling.

He was smiling. It reminds me, Megan, do you remember that when Obama was trying to convince the country that he was a man of faith and mainstream, he said that he was going to church at the Trinity Church and the Sun-time interviewer asked, well, how often do you go? And he said, I'm there every Sunday. And then as soon as we got that clip from Reverend Wright, chickens coming home to roost, no, no, God bless America, God, blank, blank, America. Then all of a sudden, he was wayward. And he had ragged that he was married, his kids were baptized. So his whole role was trying to disguise as long, to get elected. Remember the red, we are no red states. We are no blue state 2004. And as soon as he got in there, we had the beer summit and all of that stuff. It just kept going on, Trayvon, the kid, the son that I never had,

looked like me, et cetera, et cetera. And now he's done with it. And he can feel liberated again. and that's why he invited them. And again, Bill Ayers is a son, as I remember, a very wealthy utility executive raised, like Obama. Obama said he was lower middle class. He went to a prep school, his grandmother, who was a very wonderful person who paid for his education, was a worked her way up to be a bank executive.

Of course, she was rewarded by being called a typical white person. But all of these people are, elites. They are either upper middle class or they're very, very wealthy. And it's not, it, America's never had a mainstream socialist movement. I think the greatest vote giver was Eugene Debs right in 1920. He ran for president five times as a socialist. Finally, they put him in jail and he got a million votes. That was it. So the people themselves have never wanted to be And if Mondami and these new socials have support, I guarantee you it's coming from people who went to college and were imbued with all this stuff. But it's not coming from electricians or plumbers or any of those people.

Totally agree. Yeah. It's crazy to see these clips come back and to see Axios trying to whitewash his history and to see Barack Obama give it up. He gave it up. He's been denying the relationship with his guy. downplaying it for years. Third row. Okay, third row. We were right all along. The Obama's lie. If their lips are moving, they're lying. The only difference is nobody will call them out on it in the mainstream media. Axios won't call them out. The others won't call them out. They're too obsessed

with Orange Man bad. And Trump's alleged lies. As Sean Hannity once put it to me, Trump's problem is not that he lies. It's that he tells the truth. I don't know why Reverend Wright was shut out during the eight years and they asked him, well, why haven't you seen Obama? And he said, dim Jews don't let me see him. That's a direct literal quote. But I don't know what happened to him. He had a very beautiful home that he had. It was all this race, radical stuff, it's all, it's very cynical. Bill Ayers is still privileged. And they do a lot of damage. But as you pointed out, It's the middle class, the officers who were killed, their children.

They all, that's their victims, always. And that's what's sad. When all of these race hustlers gin up all this racial animosity, then it's some black electrician that then somebody comes up to him and said, well, Al Sharpton, it's an elite-driven thing. Or the black pilot. You know, this is the point Charlie Kirk was trying to make. The black pilot, who is 100,000.

qualified and out hustled everybody else to get this job who gets a second glance from somebody who's flying United because they understand that airline has a policy of requiring at least 50% DEI hires or it's not all black, but like women and whatever, like minority groups, alleged minority groups. That's the point Charlie was making that so many on the left use against him now to say he was a racist. He was saying, I don't like feeling that way. Get rid of DEI, then we look at everybody in their positions and know there's only one reason they got their skills, qualifications. I know, I used to go for 15 years, Tom Sol and I had lunch twice a month.

And he once said something really profound. It seemed obvious, but the way he put it was very profound. He said, I don't, as a matter of my own behavior, I don't trust people that have not gone through the meritocratic process. And I said, well, explain. He said, you know, when I was growing up in the 1950s, you couldn't. not if you were black, it was very hard to get into medical school. So he said, if you got through medical school, you had to be 110%. And he wasn't defending that. It should have been, you know,

no edge either way. But what he was saying is there was an institutionalized bias. So when he went to doctors, he deliberately went to black doctors, not because he was black, but because they had to be superb. There was no, you know, old boys network or preference. I love that. And then he said, and then they reversed it. So then they allowed. So then they allowed you to have, I think he said, 250 points on the MCAT advantage and all this. So he said, now I kind of, he was kind of laughing, but he was half serious. He said, I kind of go to Asian Americans because they're overrepresented and they're always discriminated against. And you have to be the best of the best of the best. And he said, it's never proven me wrong.

And what it was, it was just, that was his, you know, he could just simplify things in truisms that were not truisms. They were really profound. But he had a good point. You're so lucky to have had that, Victor. I'm so jealous. He's a wonderful person. He really was. So was Shelby Steele, although with my two best friends at Hoover. And they still are. Wow. You have good taste. All right, wait, let's keep going. I've got another one for you. I don't want to exhaust you because I know you're still recovering from a very serious illness, but you look great and you sound great. Thank you. The person who tried to assassinate Justice Kavanaugh has been given an eight-year prison sentence.

We knew this. That's kind of old news. His name is Nicholas Roski. But part of the reason why Nicholas only got an eight-year sentence for trying to assassinate a sitting Supreme Court justice to stop him from ruling on the Dobbs case, which overturned Roe v. Wade, is that Nicholas is now Sophie. And the sentencing judge factored that in to her decision. Her name is Judge Deborah Bordman.

She's a Biden appointee. And she specifically said, she's a former public defender, and she specifically said that she was taking Roski's oh-so-convenient, newfound transgender status into account. Quote, I take into consideration the conditions of pretrial confinement and the fact that she is a transgender woman, meaning a man, and will be sent to a male-only Bureau of Prisons facility. The judge questioned whether Roski would receive adequate mental health treatment in federal prison, saying, quote, let's not hide the fact that there's an executive order on this specific topic. She was annoyed that Trump is making prisons great again with men. staying with the men and women staying with the women. So to its credit, the DOJ did something it rarely

does on sentencing. It appealed. It appealed to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals saying this was such a downward deviation from the federal sentencing guidelines that it has to be taken up. That normally this person would have gotten like a few decades in prison. And because he now says he's a she. He only gets eight years in prison. This is absolute madness. And they're hashing it out. They say it's, yeah, 22 years below the bottom of what the guidelines recommended for this guy. So the minimum sentence the guidelines recommended was 30 years. This guy got eight. Now the judge said, well, he turned himself in. The prosecution said he did that because he saw two marshals standing outside of Justice Kavanaugh's house and knew that he was about to get caught.

And this judge, of course, you're not going to be surprised to hear a federal public defender, a former public defender, didn't buy the prosecution's argument, said, oh, gee, what a good person. He turned himself in. Oh, no, she turned herself in. And this is, this guy was a man when he did it. Like, they all suddenly become female when they're facing prison, but whatever. And now, it also turns out that this. This is a furry. He's a furry in addition to all of his other issues, reports the Daily Wire.

And I think this is actually a great, a great move by the DOJ, even though they're with the Fourth Circuit, which used to be more conservative, but now has a bunch of libs on it. They have to challenge this kind of nonsense. Did they not? Yeah, they do. And it's part of a larger trend where the left has been at, when I was growing up, there was the Warren Court, and they loved, they worship the Supreme Court. said, you know what, the legislature, the Senate in the House are just retrograde, and thank God for the Warren Court. Now they despise it because it has a conservative, but they do things that no one on the right would ever do. I mean, part of this was Chuck Schumer going out in front of the doors of the Supreme Court while it was in session and saying, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, you sowed the wind, you're going to reap the whirl when you don't know what's going to hit you.

A few months later, all these people started showing up. And that is, I think, a misdemeanor, if not a felony in some cases, to show up and try to affect the Supreme Court case at a justice's home. But nobody was indicted for that at all. And then when you look at the way the hearings have gone with Clarence Thomas, that was just an abject character assassination. Kavanaugh, we know now the whole thing was a joke, Susan Blasey Ford. It was all nothing to it.

Christine. Yeah, Molly. Hemingway demolish that. So it's just that, and now we hear, of course, even the character assassination, the threats to the justices, the leaking about the Dobbs case, all of that is still not enough.

And we're told that this new Democratic Socialist Party, they're going to pack the court along with, they think they're going to get rid of the electoral college by the National Voters Compact. They're going to bring in two states, they say, Puerto Rico and McWashington, D.C., a state. they're going to, if they are still in the minority, they're going to try to, I don't know, eliminate the filibuster. They won't be able to do that. And now we're even talking, the latest thing is they want to, I think one of the socialist candidates for House wants to turn the Senate into the House. In other words, it's not fair that senators represent states rather than demography and they want them to be, you know, popular, 20 senators in California, zero and, Wyoming, that kind of stuff. So they want to check. What I'm getting as they know they're,

you know who they don't want to make a state, Victor, Cuba. No. They don't want Cuba to join as our 51st state. No. And the thing is that they, they, their agenda does not appeal to people. They know that on the border, on crime, on draw, any of that doesn't appeal. And we hear that right out of the mouth of Bill Air. So they always want to change the system. They always want to change the system or they want to alter the demography. You know, when they opened the border, they actually wrote books that said, The New Democratic Majority are Demography is Destiny. And then as soon as anybody conservative said, yeah, you're right.

They said, you're a racist, you're nativist, you buy into the great racial theory and all this stuff. But that's what they were doing with the 10,000 people a day. And it all gets back to the idea they don't have a resonant message. It's contrary to human nature. the communist socialist message. And so they're always trying to finagle a system or change it. Yeah. Anything will do.

They tell us, we're not allowed. I mean, for years on YouTube, you couldn't say that transgenderism was a mental illness. They would strike it, strike your video. You could get de-platformed or demonetized. Now this guy is using his gender dysphoria as part of the mental illness that allows him a lower sentence. He's trying to say, I'm not a well person. I have gender dysphoria. I have depression. Okay, depression is not a reason to get out of a severe sentence. And by the way, so this is how he describes himself. He put out a classified ad calling himself a male to female pet for owner.

I want to wear nothing but a collar, ears, and tail plug and communicate only through my body what I want. He wrote, and another thing, his play partners, quote, pretty kinky, have a fetish account and everything. If you are not a cis man, chances are I am interested in playing with you. This is this person. So instead of being treated as a very bizarre, disturbed, but sane person who should be sentenced, per the guidelines on trying to assassinate somebody, this radically left judge, Biden appointee decided to play the small violin for him, and the New York Times assisted back to the media and their complicity. Here's what the New York Times described as Roski, a man, again, was in court on sentencing day.

they use Ms. I refuse to use this. I'm going to change the pronouns back to what they actually are, but they keep saying Ms. and she. Okay, but I'm changing them. Mr. Roski, wearing yellow prison scrubs and ankle shackles, apologized to Justice Kavanaugh and to the judiciary as a whole for contributing to the fear judge's experience as a result of doing their jobs. He spoke in a halting voice, fighting back tears, and leaning on his counsel's table. sitting behind him in the gallery were his parents and younger sister. And then I remember at this thing, they took testimony from his mother talking about how like she hadn't been attentive enough to his gender issues. Like, we're talking about the possible assassination of a sitting Supreme Court judge. Again, Victor, if that justice had been Elena Kagan or Katanji Brown Jackson on the eve of the Dobbs decision. we would not be hearing about their childhood trauma or their tears in the courtroom. No, if somebody had threatened either one of those liberal justices and then claimed at his

sentencing that he was trans and wanted a lighter sentence, they would have said, well, we have a whole century of sexology research from Havillac Ellis to Masters and Johnson. And it's described in the literature as 0.01% to 0.001% of people who have a biological problem. But it's very, very rare. And that's true. It's denoted in antiquity. I mean, Cotellus wrote a poem about changing your sex by castration. And it's in Petronius, the Saturicum.

But my point of all this, Megan, it was always recognized as a very, very rare phenomenon, not 20% of a student body saying they're in college and some polls that they're considering transition. It became a cultural fad. Almost every Hollywood's celebrity wanted to talk about a child who might be trans. And for the left, it was a new civil rights movement. They said, we know what? We've got all the legislation for civil rights. We've got all the affirmative action, DEI, but we have to find, and we have gay marriage. We've got to find a new, oh, it's the trans community. And then they exaggerated the. the numbers. They just didn't look at years of prior research, and they just created this myth

that, you know, it's one out of ten people are transgendered. Right. But you also know, Victor, I could have sat here with you a year ago and said, all right, Victor, knowing nothing about the case other than this. On the one side, a man claiming he's a woman and wearing a dress and saying he's a furry. On the other side, a conservative, U.S. Supreme Court Justice named Brett Kavanaugh. In the middle of the case is the decision to overrule Roe versus Wade. What is this trans person likely to get as a sentence? The minimum, the maximum, or something else? You would have said below the minimum. You would have said that just based on knowing nothing other than that. Absolutely. And when I looked at Susan Blum,

Was that her name, Susan Blossie Ford? Christine Blasey Ford. I looked at that. None of her story made sense. Even her friends couldn't corroborate the story. She was obviously at times disturbed. She said she was afraid of flying. She had a record of flying.

She had been coached. And I said to myself, they're almost going to win this case because they had all the leftist money, all the, she was a cause of labor. And it was, as soon as it was over, it was all revealed, it was kind of just constructed. It was like E. Jean Carroll. She was a heartthrob. Remember her? E. Jean Carroll. And none of her stories, she couldn't remember what year the

supposed assault took place. She couldn't remember what dress because it hadn't even been made yet. She couldn't get any of the story. And then that Law and Order had an episode where it's almost the same thing as she was in the same department store. And then she had apps about how to break up people's marriages. And then she was bragging that one of her favorite... She named her cat vagina. Yes. And she said one of her favorite actors was Donald Trump and she loved the apprentice. This was 10, 15 years. And then finally I thought nobody's going to believe this. And then they had a bill but tainted, which is, you know better than I is on constitutional. In the New York legislature and said, well, for one year, there's no statute of limitations for sexual assault

claim. And then she heard her story. Yes. They heard her coming out with it. They realized she was up against the statute of limitations, they were like, oh, we have an idea. We'll just change the law. And now this same, now this same half of the country, you know, the far left on the left side, will lecture us about how, you know, Donald Trump is acting extrajudicially an abusive process at the DOJ. Just stop. Please stop because some of us remember what happened during the Biden four years. Last but not least, I have a weird one for you. That's basically the theme of the book I wrote, the counter. I had been, when I had, when I, I started it.

I didn't realize how bad it was. I knew it was bad, but I go through all of those cases. Alvin Brague, Latita James, that's half the book. And then I looked at all of the media accounts. And then I looked at the polls. And what the weird thing was, every time he had the one mugshot, every time Jack Smith gave a press conference, every time somebody said he was going to be, his polls went up.

his polls went up and it just reminded me that for all the physical abuse that he took and how this was all constructed then it was beneficiary he people really did get sick of it and the funny thing is I said I said to myself this must have been all constructed out of the White House even though they were local state prosecutors then I found out that three days after he announced that he was going to run for President Megan. Nicholas, Nathan Wade was in the White House talking to that White House.

When does the Fulton County prosecutor go to the White House? That same day, Merrick Garland, the same day appoints Jack Smith, a special prosecutor. The same day Latita James is logged in at the White House. The same day,

Michael Colangelo, the third highest guy in the DOJ, who had just come there from Alvin Bragg's case, leaves that prestigious job to go work for Alvin Bragg, all there three days afterwards. So the whole, I only mention that because when they mentioned law fair or what would have happened or the DOJ now, that was all one of the most egregious examples of coordinating state,

local, county, federal prosecutors to destroy a political opponent after he had announced that he was going to run for president. Oh, it's a late discovery of conscience. by the left side when they don't like it being done to them. By the way, one of the things that they were very upset about was the John Bolton indictment. He pleaded guilty. Okay? So that's that one. All right, I know you got to go, but I just have to mention this because I mentioned it in the tease and it just came in right as we went to air. I do think this is an ongoing story. Christy Noem still has a government post and her husband has not backed off of

his bizarre antics one bit from the look of it, Victor. He's like, I'm glad to make you laugh. You need a couple laughs. I do. She's special envoy, we all do, for the Shield of the Americas. And now the Daily Mail, which broke the story about her cross-dressing husband to begin with, Brian, he's still at it. They're reporting he is still at it that he messaged bimbo dominatrix, that they like this label in this weird fetish field to the bimbofication fetish. They've been, they've been, They've been messaging each other. Okay, so they report Brian continued to message

a dominatrix after his fetish was revealed by the Daily Mail, according to the Bimbo, who is a sex worker. She goes by Shy Sotomayor. Wonder if there's any relation. I'm going to guess no. I don't think so. She allegedly had a nine-year relationship with Brian Nome. He married Christy as right after high school,

so obviously while he was married to her. and she claimed on this podcast that he reached out to her just last month. Hold on. Where is that? Yeah. Here it is. Let's play it. This is her on a podcast.

You posted to X on June 15th that you, quote, can't keep Brian out of your DMs. How recently has he DM'd you? And what is he saying to you? May 17th. He texted me on I message. He's like, I've been a really bad boy. I'm like, oh, I know. I know you've been a bad boy.

And then he started talking to me directly on WhatsApp. And I had a long talk with my husband. And I was just like, you know what? I feel like this is truly a sick man. I feel like he has a sex addiction. And that's not something I would want to take advantage of. So I was just like, you know what? I'm going to send Brian a message.

I sent him a very long message saying, you know, Brian, I thought really hard on this. you obviously are very sick. You need help. If it's not clear by now or after being America's joke, I truly don't know what is. But I've came forward with my story about you. This is just kind of me saying goodbye.

If you find another girl who does want to talk to you during this, I'm like shame on both of you. You need to get better. Okay. Victor, when shy Sotomayor is calling you sick and saying you need help, you've reached rock. Yeah, I thought, wow, here's somebody that Dominic. It says all of a sudden lecturing about psychological disorders.

And her appearance convicts her. But, you know, just a final thought. There is something tragic about this, because I remember Christy Noem when she was a house member, and she was pretty good. And as a governor, and then all of a sudden she had altered her appearance. The dress was inappropriate for her job at Homeland Security. Corey was involved. I didn't know about, we didn't know about the husband, but it all, I don't know whether it was always there, but it just seemed that it was a tragedy that once she got into national prominence, all of the characteristics that had promoted her and propelled her, good governance, sober behavior, the way she dressed was kind of, you know, attractive but conservative, and then all of a sudden it was like a glamour tour.

and then the personal problems with her boyfriend, it just all imploded. It's kind of a moral story about power and celebrity. I'm quoting Barack Obama. Remember, he just said that I'm not interested at the dedication. He said, one thing we've got to remember is life's not about influence, celebrity, and money. I'm thinking you're worth $100 million. You work for Netflix.

You can't keep out of the cameras. is you get 400,000 for a lecture, and you always fly in when no one really needs you for you to lecture somebody. But it was almost as if every time Obama, just to finish, every time he lectures on morality, it's always a psychological projection.

You know that he feels that he's a hypocrite, so he's going to identify it in someone else and then condemn it, and that gives him absolution of somehow. But I don't know what happened to Christy Noem. It's really, and the weird thing, final, Megan, is that we didn't know really about her husband. We just saw those pictures, you know, he was very religious and strained and father. So we all thought that he was the victim of this purported affair.

And then it turns out that whatever he was doing, it was so much more bizarre than her. He may have been the cause of it. Yes, and you combined it. It was really tragic. It really was. I know. No, it is tragic. What's even more tragic is poor shot.

Sotomayor issued him an invoice for $4,500, and he hasn't paid it, Victor. You got to pay your debts, especially you're going to put on those enormous fake boobs. You got to pay your debt. And you're going to wear the tidy little pants, as Brian Nome. You got to pay your debts because, you know, what's going to happen is exactly what did happen. Those ladies are going to come out and they're going to spill the tea on you, Brian. And your rehab was a failure. It was a fail. You need to go back in and do a different facility, sir. Victor, it's wonderful. have you. Thanks for giving us so much of your time. I know you're still recovering and we're all praying for you. Well, I'll be fine. Thank you, Megan. I appreciate it to you.

Good. We're counting on it. Again, Victor's forthcoming book is titled The Counter-Revolution, the fall and rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. We will be sure to have Victor on and celebrate that when it hits. Up next, a deep dive into the new leads on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. There actually is a fair amount of news in this story today, and we'll tell you, exactly what it is. I kind of can't believe what I've read this morning. Stand by. When you sign your insurance agency for some brokers, that is the finish line. It's a handshake. They get their commission done. Then you may not hear again from them until it's time for renewal and they need your money and commitment again. It's not exactly a great relationship.

Your business, however, runs all year. And so do the gaps and so does the risk and so do events for which you need insurance. And that is why I want to tell you about super sure. If you're has more than 25 employees, whether you are the owner, the CFO, or the HR manager, it can be too complex to just buy a policy online. SuperShure is the super agency built for you, licensed in every state for your business insurance and employee benefits, with year-round support for you and your team. At supershure.com, you can access tools like fine print facts, which translates your current policy into plain English so that you see what's covered and what's not. Plus a business value calculator so you can estimate what your business is actually

worth and then know what really needs protecting. Go to supershure.com slash Megan, one super agency, one powerful platform, all your policies in one place so convenient, so much easier to manage. Go to super sure.com slash Megan paid for by SuperSure insurance agency LLC, which is a licensed insurance agency. New developments today in the Nancy Guthrie case. Multiple news outlets are now reporting that a second note, we knew about this note, we just didn't know exactly what was in it, sent after her disappearance, claimed Savannah Guthrie's mother was, quote, buried in nature, seeming to indicate that she had passed away. The reporting prompted an emotional response from Savannah, who said her family is living

in agony, and she pleaded with anyone with information to come forward. Now, as I mentioned at the top of the show, the person who lit this fire to his credit is our pal, friend of the show, Howard Bloom, who did such amazing reporting on the Idaho Four and has now, for Air Mail, which is a publication started by Graydon Carter, formerly of Vanity Fair along with a partner, he's reporting for them. And they turned him to the Nancy Guthrie case. So he had a first installment in his reporting not long ago. And this was the second installment in which he broke a bunch of exclusive details about that second ransom note, so-called ransom note, which may have now we read it. It's been more of a like, just like an update from the one writer who Savannah had said she actually believed was the legitimate kidnapper. And now we're so thanks to Howard, we're learning all about what was in that note. And again, it's just a point of order.

But it is journalistic courtesy and professionalism 101. When someone breaks something big, like a new detail, and they have it exclusively. You have to credit them when you report it. And like, I'm seeing all these reporters run out like it's their exclusive. And like, you know, update on Nancy Guthrie, colon. And then, you know, my sources tell me, okay, I get that you've matched Howard's reporting. You have to cite Howard. It's just, all right, sorry, enough about that.

joining me now to explain what all of this could mean for the case. Maureen O'Connell. She's a 25-year veteran of the FBI and co-host of Big City Crime Behind the Red Tape and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent who now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group. Maureen, James, great to see you both. Good to see you. So just want to get, we actually did talk about this because as I'm giving credit out here,

we covered this in March when an ex-account that goes by nerdy addict actually did report some of these same contents from that second note. And we kind of laughed about it because we're not used to hinging our reporting on an ex-account with somebody who just goes by nerdy addicts, right? But in our experience, nerdy addict has been right a lot in this case and clearly has developed their own sources. I think it's a he. And the picture is of a man. And so we reported that some of this content, that the second note had said that Nancy had passed and moved on. But most people didn't touch it. And then Howard actually got it in reportable form. So clearly he had enough sources to actually put it down on paper and publish it, which he did. And airmail did. And then it almost seemed like all these reporters had it up their sleeves but didn't have permission to print it or whatever because all of them started coming out saying, okay, we have it too, we have it too. We have it too. And what? here is what the reporting is that that first ransom note came. Guthrie disappeared on February 1st.

This is Savannah Guthrie's mother. I think everybody knows this at this point out of Arizona. And she was in her home, Tucson overnight on a Saturday to a Sunday. She had seen her other daughter, Annie and Annie's husband, Tomas, for some games earlier in the evening. Tomas brought her back home. She went inside. Next thing we know, she didn't show up at her home on Sunday morning.

at her friends home where they all watched a church service every Sunday via remote, like via Zoom. She wasn't there. And then all how it broke loose. It was clear that she had been abducted. We later saw videotape of the presumed abductor at her door and a very scary ski mask and so on. So then ransom letters started to come in. And the question all along has been, were they legitimate? Is this the actual kidnapper?

Savannah would later say she did believe those first two notes were from the actual kidnapper. At the time, local press reported, and Howard has matched the reporting, that the ransom note, the one that I'm about to start with, the first one, accurately described what Nancy Guthrie was wearing when kidnapped, accurately described where her Apple Watch was placed in her bedroom, and accurately described a broken floodlight light on the exterior of the home. So February 2nd and 3rd, the mom goes missing February 1th. second and third, several media outlets, including TMZ, K-Gun and K-O-L-D, those are two locals, receive the first purported ransom letter, demanding millions in Bitcoin for her return. This note has a first deadline of 5 p.m. Thursday. Again, she was stolen overnight Saturday to Sunday. Now we get to Tuesday.

And they're saying this Thursday, we want $4 million or else. that the note explicitly used that term or else. There was no proof of life. KOLD anchor Mary Coleman told CNN at the time a lot of it is information that only someone is who's holding her for ransom would know and some very sensitive information and things that people who were not there when she was taken captive would not know. Okay. February 4th comes along and Savannah and her siblings posted an Instagram message appearing to respond to the ransom.

We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you. We are ready to listen. Please reach out to us. February 5th, which is Thursday, the deadline. The first ransom deadline comes and goes. Four million due by 5 p.m. They don't pay. February 6th, another note goes to just one of those three news sources. And it's local Tucson station, K-O-L-D. This is the one that according to Howard Bloom included language that he characterizes as an apology. and it led to Savannah and her siblings responding with a new video on Instagram, holding hands and saying, we received your message, we understand. We have it here. Let's just watch it. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her.

This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable. to us and we will pay. Howard reports that they were responding to the message sent to KOLD alone that he reports as follows, had the same IP address as the initial seemingly credible emails, and it transformed the entire course of the investigation, quoting here. With its receipt, the task force investigating this case concluded with a stony resignation the Nancy Guthrie case was no longer simply a kidnapping, but also a potential homicide.

In this note, the contents of which were summarized by sources close to the case, the sender took a new, less confident tone. It opened with a sputtering and labored, quote, apology that was the word used by a source close to this case for Guthrie's inadvertent death. It went harshly on, however, to offer up the transactional possibility that her body could be delivered for a sum, whether it would be the original $4 million or another amount apparently was never clarified. And now after Howard breaks that, guys, a bunch of people are matching the reporting and adding to it. There's some quibble about whether it was an actual

apology in there, but confirming that that second note reported Nancy had died. Here's Brian Enton, among others, reporting on the note, Sop 53. And I want to read you this exactly because I wrote down exactly what I was able to get from my source. I am told that the second ransom note in the Nancy Guthrie case said that she died and that she was, quote, buried with nature now. And again, this is according to a source close to the investigation. The note indicated that Nancy's death was not intentional, but did not offer a

direct apology. There's been some other reporting today from other people saying that it was an apology. I am told it was not a direct apology, but that it did indicate that the death was not intentional. Remember, we don't know whether any of these ransom notes are real. Savannah Guthrie has said in the past that she believes that the ransom notes, or at least some of them are real. And one more, Maureen, and James. This is a reporter named Brianna Whitney. She works now for a crime junkie, but was previously at another outlet covering this case. And she said she's seen the note and described it here, SOT 56.

I have spent months and months covering the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the ground. And in my former role, before I came to crime junkie, I was made aware of what these ransom notes said. as I was reporting on the case, I've seen them with my own eyes. So I want to actually provide more context as to what that second note said. The way that this note was written, it's written as we, like, we didn't know this, as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this. It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said, she perished shortly after she was taken. They believe that it was heart related.

And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature. And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said, nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. So she, too, is reporting an apology. But that's not even like the most salient point is that Nancy is dead, according to this person that she had died. And that's why you guys were right in your speculation when you heard Savannah's reaction that it sounded like an attempt to get back a body as opposed to a live person. But there's a lot in there.

So let's go through it. Maureen, let me start with you. Your reaction. Well, energetically, to your point about what we thought when we heard the Guthrie family respond to this, It was as if all the air was let out of their tires and you could just feel it. You could see it. It was clearly obvious. Now, with regard to these people saying, oh, nothing else could have happened, we never could have foreseen anything like this happening is just utter nonsense.

Nancy was bleeding when she left that residence, which means she was probably struck in the face as an 84-year-old woman. She was scared to a point where a 35-year-old fit man could have a heart attack and die. So for them to say, you know, no one could have expected. Never intended to hurt her. Yeah. It's just, it's just utter nonsense. They're murderers. They murdered her.

Period. Yeah. It's just to reiterate again what Brianna reported. And again, I trust her because she says she has seen the note. This is not just reporting from somebody, James. This is her saying, I had eyes on it. We did not fully grasp the seriousness of her condition. we never intended to hurt her.

Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome, but she did perish shortly after she was taken. And they say, also we believe it was heart-related, quote, she's been buried with nature. Your thoughts? Oh, hey, good to see. It just continues with the unorthodox nature of this case. None of this, you know,

every time we think we have stuff that adds up, it just doesn't. And there's little bits of information here that are interesting. You know, I, again, it's, I don't put a lot into the apology. A lot of people are saying that people that kidnap or murder can't apologize. Well, that's a pretty general statement. You know, I think it's just unorthodox.

Again, I'm curious what happened between the, you know, the first note and the second note if we thought it was real. And I agree with Maureen. When we saw that Instagram post on, you know, with the family that you just played, it was pretty clear that, you know, that something had changed within the investigation and they were asking, you know, for the family to, you know, plead directly because they basically had no communication with the quote unquote kidnapper. And it was heartbreaking. And it's, you know, again, case continues to be heartbreaking. And I feel terrible for these people.

But what do you make of the attempts? We have about a minute left and then we'll carry over you guys after the break. But what do you make of the attempt to sound kind of like, likeable? Maureen. It sounds feminine to me. A lot of the verbiage is feminine. This, this buried with nature. It's like they're trying to comfort people. Why are you trying to comfort someone when you're... It doesn't it? A lot of this does. Yeah. It's very good observation. Yeah. What guy is going to say, I'm, you know, I could have never foreseen this and nothing you could have done and could have changed this. that is neither here nor there.

That has nothing to do with anything. Well, I'll tell you what could have changed it. You're not breaking into the home of an 84-year-old woman. There's a, there's a, you know, breaking headline for you. Exactly. All right, standby, stand by, stand by. Hold that thought, so much more to do. Quick ad.

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I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM. It's called the Megan Kelly channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies. Along with the Megan Kelly show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Moran Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news, only on the Megan Kelly channel, SiriusXM 11, and on the Sirius XM Pat. I've seen them with my own eyes, so I want to actually provide more context as to what

that second note said. The way that this note was written, it's written as we. Like, we didn't know this, as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this. It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said, she perished shortly after she was taken. They believed that it was heart-related. And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature. And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said,

nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. There it is. Again, reporting by now crime junkie reporter Breanna Whitney, who says she's seen that second ransom note or however you want to characterize it, note from the alleged kidnappers of Nancy Guthrie and that it did include an apology, an announcement that she had died, a statement that we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her conduct. We never intended to hurt her. She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it was heart-related.

She's been, quote, buried with nature and nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. Welcome back. We're discussing the latest with the Nancy Guthrie case with Maureen O'Connell, a 25-year-old veteran of the FBI and co-host a big city crime behind the red tape and James Hamilton, Hamilton, Special Agent, who now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group. Um, yeah, so back, can we just like hit on the feminine point a little bit more, maybe expand on that, like, buried with nature. We never intended to hurt her. Even like she perished. Perished. Was that word used? I wonder. Because that's, that jumped out at me. That's not really how people talk. And then the nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. Like don't blame yourself. You know, like the weird. Yeah. Yeah. It's just very conciliatory and very. strange considering the facts of this investigation, of this case, of this poor woman to talk

this way. You know, any, any, any, any self-respecting criminal would at least be a little more honest about what happened here. They're trying to soften what they did. And please don't blame yourself. I hope you're not being too hard on yourself. It's so weird. Well, because, I mean, if you're following their logic, they had said in the the original note on February 2nd, and again, Sunday was the first, give us $4 million by Thursday or else, again, using the term actual or else. And now here we are. They haven't paid. And they're writing the note saying, she's gone. Oh, and by the way, there was nothing that you could have done to have changed the outcome. So they seemed to be saying, you didn't give us our

$4 million bucks, but don't worry. She was dead anyway, even if you'd given us the money. it wouldn't have panned out for you. But if you want to give us money anyway, we could get the body back to you, I guess. Or at least maybe that's just still lurking out there. It's implied that's not clear. And Brianna's description of it, no one's talking about,

but that original, because the original note we know, James said, $4 million by Thursday, $6 million by the following Monday. If you wait, it's going to cost you more. Then comes the second note. Like, why would they send the second note? Like, hey, FYI,

she died and don't blame yourself like what's the point of that well it looks like they also didn't give any real um you know particulars on how to get that four million to them it doesn't sound like there was any clear communication given you know this is how you would respond to to me get back to me um and then they're just double tap and hey by the way it's you know it's not worth it now because she's gone and we're sorry but you can still give me some money because i get the body back to you But I think you and Maureen are nailing a couple of really important things, if true, that, you know, she's with nature. Instead of saying, you know, she's gone with God. I mean, if you're following the case, you know, that Nancy was a believer.

And so that would track with her, you know, this note person saying it was a heart condition, which would track with if you're following the case, you know about the pacemaker. But saying that she is buried with nature is interesting that needs to be looked into. and there's plenty of people who are really smart and can put words together and study language and really the context of a statement like that, as that said in certain parts of the world. And certainly I hope the FBI is looking into something like that because that's just a very interesting phrase. And then what you had said earlier, Megan, about, you know, we didn't realize the extent of

her condition. It kind of drew me to one of, you know, the two things, which is, you know, I thought initially that there was some pre-operational surveillance, meaning they looked at the, house and maybe even looked at her. And then whether or not that was because she was Savannah's mother or because it's in line with this nice house, nice theory. You know, we were talking earlier about, you know, a crime gang hitting these nice houses. But still both would speak to pre-operational surveillance. And maybe that's what she's, you know, the note writer is alluding to is when we looked at it, we didn't realize she was that, you know, kind of old or fragile. And I thought

that was very interesting. There's reaction today from Savannah herself, who did address this on the Today Show this morning. It's like you kind of forget that she's back doing her job without any resolution in this case, which, you know, she has to do. You know, we all have a job to do. She has a job to do. But like then this story is in the news again and she, you know, felt the need to respond for obvious reasons.

And here's what she said. The bravery and courage with which you have done this job every day since that happened, nothing sort of remarkable. Well, nothing sort of remarkable. I love you guys and I love this place and this is unusual and unprecedented to say the least to be sitting here. But, you know, I don't have any comment on this story and not involved in our coverage. But I can't pretend I'm not here. And so since I am, I want to just take the opportunity to ask people to really to beg people. to come forward. Somebody knows something. And this is a new story today that is on your radar,

but this is the life that my sister lives, that I live, that my brother lives, that our extended families live, that our children live every day. And we are in agony. And we cannot be at peace. So how much I try to come out here every day and smile and find that joy. And I will. I promise I will. This is a moment to tell you that we need your help. We're begging for your help. And I'm not going to miss that opportunity. And so please, if you're watching, no matter how small, the reward is there, you can tell us, it can be anonymous. Please do the right thing for us, for our family, for our children.

And we love our mom. And we'll never stop looking for her, never. Hmm. I wish she had mentioned the reward, too, because it's like somebody, that the reward actually could motivate somebody to come forward. And that is something we should discuss, because. because Howard's reporting, and I know Howard Blum, he's very solid. Like, he's, I don't know how he gets the information he gets, but he gets really good exclusives.

And his reporting is that this task force that we've all discussed before, you know, that's what remains on the investigatory team now. And it's a combo of FBI and Tucson cops, detectives, that the task force has, expressed some regret from the sound of it about not paying the ransom. Like that if they had just paid, if the FBI had agreed to pay the ransom or tell Savannah to pay the ransom, that $4 million bucks in the beginning, that the FBI really feels confident in its ability to track the Bitcoin, James. You know, it's Bitcoin.

So it's not just like cashing a check. It's going to be a lot harder to track it. But that at some point, you know, the Bitcoin has to be. withdrawn or does the kidnapper no good. And so why didn't they just pay the $4 million and then track the Bitcoin and arrest the perpetrator? Because what he writes is that, and we had speculated about this, instead they decided to, quote, tickle the wire. And remember, we talked about how Harvey Levin had reported that there had been a $300 deposit made into the bank account of whomever wrote those first two notes into the Bitcoin account. And no one bit. No one touched it.

Now, he's reporting it's a different number like $141 that was deposited, but it's neither here nor there. The point is the FBI, according to him, did in fact, this is the first confirmation we've had that it was the FBI who put the money in and that it was an attempt to tickle the wire, James. They thought maybe the kidnapper would be dumb enough to take it. And Howard reports that either, you know, either the kidnapper was like, nice try, right, and knew it was a trap or just wasn't interested in, you know, going, risking anything for 140 bucks. So your thoughts and whether they should have paid it. Like if they're really believing this note was legit as Savannah does, and her information definitely comes from them, and that they had all these things right about the Nancy scene and Nancy herself. And now we know more about what the two notes sounded like. Like,

why didn't they just pay? It's because protocol, I mean, we got to remember that the reality is we still never had a proof of life ever. So the first note didn't indicate anything like a picture of her, anything. Yeah, we do have some information about the watch, but that would not be specific enough that the Bureau would say, yeah, just go ahead and launch $4 million. Because if you do, and, you know, you don't. get her back because it's a scammer then there's going to be more four million dollar request and you're going to keep playing that game until you run out of

money and so that's why they don't do it is because if you don't have any you know real legitimacy and the only way you can really get that legitimacy is you've got to show us this person that you say you have they just can't do that and that's you know it's a question I asked too you know if they believe so much but it that protocol is there for a very good reason and I you know it might sound callous but I I agree that they shouldn't have paid the $4 million without an actual proof of life of Ms. Guthrie. I just don't understand, Maureen, what kind of a kidnapper?

If you go with this is the kidnapper. What is the point? What is the point of on Thursday after they've missed the deadline, sending a follow-up saying she's dead. She's dead now. We didn't intend to hurt her. It's not your fault. We think it was the heart. nothing you could have done. What is the point?

The point is they're amateurs and they and I have to first go back for a minute if I could to James because if in fact they did pay the ransom without any proof of life, what precedent does that set for every other person who's kidnapped? Everyone's going to jump out of the woodwork even more than they do right now because you saw the predators pounce when that award. Can we really say there's no proof of life? I'm just going to play devil devil's advocate. when the first note allegedly said, this is what she was wearing. This is where her Apple Watch was.

And check out the broken floodlight on this part of the home. That's our proof that we have her and we were there. Is that qualified? That's more than saying nothing. Sure, but it's not enough to say that she's not dead. I mean, if you just consider how they transported her or how they had to transport her. So she's bleeding from presumably her mouth, which they already know by now, because they've tested that blood to see if saliva was in it or whatever. the front porch. So she's bleeding from her mouth. She's 84 years old. She has no medication with her.

She's very frail. She's scared to death. And there's no proof of life. They all, they obviously spoke with her doctors. They've talked with family members. You could see from watching her on Savannah show how frail she was. So if they were doing pre-incident surveillance, they saw her with a Walker or a cane going very slowly around her backyard. And when it's really hot and dry like that, it's difficult to, you could see someone breathing with labor. It's, it's, you know, you have to have proof of life. It's, it does sound callous, again, to Jim's point, but it's, I agree with it, actually.

I mean, like in negotiation, I mean, they teach you, I'm sorry, Megan. No, you go. Just in negotiation school, I mean, they teach, obviously, We want to establish communication, rapport, but we got to keep the goal in mind, and we both have the same goal here. I mean, I want to get her. If I'm working this as a negotiator and I'm talking to the kidnapper, look, I want her back and you want to give her to me because you want your money.

So we have a common ground here, but for me to get this money, because $4 million, you know, I don't have it laying around. I got to go get that, but before I go get it, can you prove to me you have her? And it can't be that you know there's a floodlight out that you could have got from, you know, Google Earth overview or some, you know, a previous story. Because Megan, you did a great job playing all the previous stories of interviews that Savannah had done with her mom, where I could have seen that Apple Watch. I could have seen the details of that inside of her bedroom.

I could have told you the nightgown she likes to wear. I could tell you the color of her pillows. All things I would have got from, you know, open source. I wasn't a kidnapping her, but I would have seen those things, you know, they were open to me. So what we would be looking for is give me something else. Like prove to me you have her, which is why you. you always see the newspaper clipping, you know, the hostage holds the newspaper of the day. So we know, okay, we still have a live body. And then we can negotiate in good faith.

James, if you're fake, if this is a faker, okay, I'm with you. I get, I accept all that. But like, if you're a faker, why would you send that second note? I can, I can actually kind of follow where the real kidnapper might do it. Like if the real kidnapper has her, it's Tuesday night. sorry, it's, it's, the, the first was Sunday when she was taken, right? Yes. And then the notes came on the second and third. So you have her. You want the money. So you're sending out the notes on Monday and Tuesday saying four million by Thursday, six million if you wait till Sunday. And you offer enough detail in there to convince somebody you have her. This is what she was wearing. This is where the Apple Watch was. And this is what the floodlight looked like. Then you watch the world

explode over your note, all the speculation, all the stuff. And then let's not forget, one of the first things the Guthrie family said, Savannah in particular, right away was she's, she desperately needs her medication. Like she said she's not going to survive without her heart medication. And we were never sure whether that was 100% true or whether it was an attempt to ratchet up the urgency for the kidnappers. Like, we need her back, ASAP. Maybe it was 100% true. And she dies. So now she dies. So you can't give proof of life. There's no more life. You have Nancy, but it's a body now. And maybe by the time they sent this follow-up note on February 6th, that was the day after the ransom was due and not paid, maybe by that day you decided to take a different tactic. You've got to fess up. You cannot provide

proof of life. There's not going to be any talking to Nancy or pictures of Nancy holding the daily paper. So you decide to come clean saying she's dead. But I don't know whether it's explicit in here, according to that, Brianna, it's not. But maybe the theory is the earlier demand will stand. And maybe they will pay us for the return of the body. And indeed, that is what Savannah responds with. So that, that makes sense to me. But if you are a fake kidnapper just trying to get Bitcoin, $4 million or $6 million, that second note, make a $1 million. No, no sense. Well, I don't, I mean, I'm surprised you haven't been through this because I know I haven't. I think probably Maureen has too, but when someone's trying to get something from you, they just

keep trying. They don't stop, right? They're incessant about it. It never ends. They just keep coming. And so they hang on for anything. And that's why you send the second note is, oh, maybe I say the right things. Maybe I sound like you all said earlier, maybe if I sound apologetic or I sound, you know, sympathetic that maybe, you know, you'll send me some money because I have nothing right now. I've no, if I'm a scammer, I have no money right now. Maybe I can get a hundred grand from you if I tell you where the body is. You know, and that's, that's typical 101 fraudster mentality and methodology. That's exactly what they do. So the second note doesn't surprise me at all. You wouldn't expect them to write the second note, ratcheting it up. Like, she's hurting, you know,

she's scared, which by the way, someone, I think it was Harvey reported, was in the first note that she was scared. She's okay, but she's scared. And then, you know, so the second, no, you ratchet that up, get Savannah upset. She's the one with the deep pockets. Like, let's scare her as opposed to run the risk of her being like, I'm not paying $4 million for, you know, somebody who may or may not have a body. Well, notice it worked because she went on Instagram the next day on the seventh saying,

hey, we hear you and we'll pay. So what happened? That's the good question is, okay, what happened from the Instagram post to this, you know, IP address? Why was there no more contact, right? What happened then? Because there's no one reporting on any of that. Nobody, right? So what happened? Morin, did you want to weigh in? Because I have another thing I want to bring up, but you go first. We're missing a lot of pieces of information. And without them, it's going to be hard. But I think part of what happened with the second note is they're trying to take their foot off the gas they're trying to let let trying to make the the situation um uh a little less explosive and by that i mean they're trying to turn down the temp right now everybody's full steam ahead everyone's looking for

they're out searching for it's peddled to the metal every single law enforcement agency all and they just wanted to to just pull that back a little bit and by saying that she's gone by saying that she's, you know, out in nature. What does that mean? It means they're going to, so we don't have to worry about writing warrants for houses right now. I mean, it just sends the investigation in a totally different direction and away from someone. And the final thing about this is a lot of this in the verbiage here is someone who cares. You know, we always said from the beginning that this is someone that had some nexus to Nancy.

this person is trying to say that they care because that might, as Jim said, that James said, that might get them to pay. But they're just predators. They're just going to do whatever they can to get someone to pay them. Okay. Here's what I find interesting, among other things about this. Harvey Levin, as you know, Sheriff Harvey, as our friend, Zach Peter calls him, he was also, he got the first ransom, no, but not the second. Then he started getting targeted by some other person who also wanted Bitcoin. And this person was like, I know where she is. And I know who has her. And revealed that it was south of the border.

But like, wouldn't say more. and was like, give me half the Bitcoin up front, half later. It was, I don't know, that kept changing. And we all kind of thought this person was a fraudster. Maybe left a few percentage points open for the fact that maybe not, but did not sound legit. But Harvey, he, he came out and laid out some updates on TMZ about that person. And Harvey's discussions with the FBI around that person. Okay, just listen to. We cut it way down, but listen to what we have here.

Now, there is a reference to Nancy Guthrie not being alive anymore, but that is from the person who sent us multiple emails saying that he knows or knew where Nancy Guthrie was and where the kidnappers were, and he wanted money in return. for information. We passed that along to the FBI as we did the ransom note, but this person kept sending us emails. And early on, he said time is of the essence. And then a few days after the kidnapping, he said, time is no longer of the essence, meaning she wasn't alive. So that's where that came from, not the people who kidnapped her, but from the person who was sending us these notes. Now, that person wanted effectively $100,000. This person also said

that he was afraid that he might be implicated. He had a burglary on his record from, I think he said, 11 years before. And apparently he knew these kidnappers well enough that he was afraid he might be implicated. So the FBI never paid that money. I was always confused about that. I called the FBI back. And I said, look, what if TMZ does a documentary and that we try and get in touch with this guy and even pay the money?

And if he takes us to the location, then you get resolution. The Guthrie family gets resolution. And if he scams us, he scams us. But I just had this real feeling that it might be real. And I've called a half a dozen times since over the last couple of weeks. And I've gotten nothing back. For some reason, the FBI has gone radio silent on me.

So that's another question. Why not just try to pay that one off and see if it leads anywhere? because that person, too, for whatever it's worth, was saying time is of the essence, which kind of tracks with the first ransom note we were just discussing, which we believe is from somebody else. Savannah says she believes the legitimate kidnapper. And then the reversal days later of she's gone. And according to Harvey's person, time is no longer of the essence. And this person wouldn't have known, none of that reporting about the second, you know, ransom note saying she's perished and she's been buried with nature,

that was not yet public. So, you know, if this guy, you could make the case that maybe this guy did know the actual kidnappers. And maybe all of this is real. Maybe the first two notes are from the real kidnapper. And maybe this guy really did know the real kidnapper. And we should have, instead of putting $300 or $140 in the Bitcoin account, should have actually taken Harvey up and his offer to put the half of the Bitcoin into the account and take the loss, you know, is what, 45,000 bucks at one point. Like, he's basically saying to the FBI, Maureen, I will pay it. I will suck it up.

And they aren't getting back to him. So what's the story there? Well, maybe, just as is the case with you, Megan, maybe the FBI was tired of dealing with hair, uh, uh, uh, sheriff Harvey. Yeah, exactly, Sheriff Harvey. That's right. I think they're close right now to pulling this case together, and that's what my sources are telling me. What?

Yeah, things are happening. But one of the reasons it's taking so long is because whatever defense attorney takes this investigation and represents whoever they charge in this case, you have to operate under the assumption, like from day one, you're doing your trial prep practically. everything you do is geared toward trial and prosecution. And if you're going to have the greatest defense attorney in the world handling this case, whoever takes this case. So you have to operate under the assumption that a couple of big chunks of your evidence may get tossed. So you have to put a case together in such a way that it would withstand losing some of these chunks of evidence, depending on how you got them or, or, how vulnerable they might be to getting tossed. So I think they're just working on these other chunks of evidence, shoring them up even more. But I think we're getting closer. I actually really do think they're getting closer. And one thing, when, you know, when James talks about being a negotiator, and he talked about every time a kidnapper puts out a ransom note, just the words have all kinds of implications. And so the same holds true for,

FBI agents when we speak to people on the outside. If we talk to them and there's optimism in our voice and we sound upbeat and we don't want to answer questions, the person we're talking to could say, wow, they're probably closer than we think they are. And that's when I go to ground and I don't talk to anybody else. When I feel like I'm getting there, and I don't know, James, what do you think about that when you're getting kind of close? Wait, wait, no, wait, I love James, but we're not moving off of Marion O'Connell yet. Why? Why? Can you just expand on why you think they're wrapping, like they're getting there, that they're close to making an arrest? I think they're getting close to the porch guy.

And when they get the porch guy, the floodgates shall swing open. What's your level of confidence on that? 75%. Oh, Maureen. That's big news. I know. I'm like, that's huge. Big if true, as the kids say. By the way, it does, it raises something else.

Howard Bloom said in his reporting that he wrote, he wrote that they are thinking it was a group effort, like at least two at this point. Because he reports, they think the person writing about the Bitcoin, um, was sophisticated, that the letters, the words, the English, the diction, whatever, was sophisticated and that the guy on the porch to them seemed too bumbling to be the author. And again, that they may think that those two notes are authentic. They may think, you don't, I don't know that. I'm going off of what I said before. Savannah thinks so, and her info would have come from them, for sure. and Harvey reported that the FBI was taking those notes very seriously. So that they're thinking the bumbler on the front porch, alleged bumbler, there's a difference of opinion there, is not the person who did the Bitcoin account and wrote the sophisticated notes and is talking about perished.

She perished and she's with nature. She's buried in nature and all that. I actually, that tracks to me. That tracks that it might not be the same person. I don't know. James, your thoughts on Maureen's just dropping a bomb on us here on our casual update in the case. Well, leave it to Maureen, you know, to bring the great news. And I certainly pray that she's right and that there is some closure and all that. I would be over the moon if we actually had an arrest in this case. And I would be very, very, you know, happy about that. I did want to go back, Megan, to your question with regards to, you know, Harvey and this, this. second individual who, you know, has some information, the reason the Bureau puts out a reward is so that we can get money to people who have useful information. And so as he started going down

that road as to why the individual didn't like that idea, it sounded very criminal to me. And I mean, you know, Maureen and I for more than 50 plus years, we talk to criminals on a daily basis. And so when he double taps with, well, I have a burglary 11 years ago, that's just nonsense, okay? He doesn't want to go to the Bureau because he's probably full of crap, right? That's just the reality of it. He's making up excuses. There's nothing that says, we can't give you the reward, even though you've had some criminal conviction years ago, as long as you weren't involved in the crime.

So I just think that he sees Harvey as an easy mark and wants some publicity and wants a little bit of money. And the reason to answer your question pointedly as to why the Bureau doesn't let Harvey just pay the money, it didn't sound like they told him no, they just gave him the Heisman. They just basically said, we're moving on. We got more important things to do. And if Harvey wants to pay the guy, go right ahead, it'll probably lose the money, but it'll be a good story for him.

But again, we just can't be in the business of giving money out to people that, you know, are chasing stories. It just doesn't work that way, and it's not a professional way to operate. One of my favorite lines of all time, James, giving them the Heisman. You like that? I love it. Yeah. What about, I'm going back to look at the Harvey, the Harvey notes, his special line of notes, not the receipt of the first ransom note, but this other person who's like, they're in Mexico and I know who they are.

Now, that's the first he's revealed that the person had a burglary conviction. I had not heard that before. So the person's admitting that they have a record or maybe Harvey, Harvey doesn't have an identity on them. So, no, the person must have admitted in the notes that he. He has a burglary conviction. So, you know, that kind of increases his credibility. You hang out with criminals. You are a criminal.

More likely that you're hanging out with the criminals, maybe. Well, fun fact, Megan. But I'm going back. Well, I'm trying to figure out, Maureen, when did that guy write, time is of the essence? And when did he write, time is no longer of the essence? Because I do, if it tracks exactly the first note and the second note from the other guy, then that is kind of interesting. Like, doesn't that increase the chances that?

that the second Harvey guy might actually have known what he was talking about. Well, Marine hit it, but I want to come back to it if I can. Sure. Yeah. When he says time is of the essence and he doesn't get a response, then, I mean, he just realizes that's not going to work, so he's going to go to plan C or D. And then the only other quick thing is if someone admits to us that he's got a burglary rap in his jacket, guaranteed he's got five other charges also. Right.

And I wrote it down. As you were playing that, Megan, I wrote it down because when you work fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, you know, stuff we work forever, it's always critical, like time is of the essence. They always create this urgency, right? When they want to get money from somebody. It has to happen right now. There can't be any slowdown in the process at all.

And they always hit the people with urgency. And so when I heard that, I was like, yep, that's typical fraud 101. I don't know. Yeah, consider the success of all the fraud against elderly people. I've got your granddaughter right here. And a young girl screaming in the background, get to the bank, withdraw money, drop it off here. You can't believe the people that go along with that. Yep.

When you charge it with emotion and you put a timestamp on it and you push, push, push, this is what they do. Well, it would, okay, so I was pursuing what if it's real? What if that's the real kidnapper and this is a real guy who knows the kidnapper and they're all, they're writing the same thing. Times of the essence. It's not of the essence. What if it's not, if it's not real, neither one's real, then what you're saying is actually really smart and really interesting too, because you're, you got two bad guys behaving exactly the same way at the same time, right? Right. Then you got two, we presume two. There's still the possibilities, this is the same person.

But you got two bad guys who are like, emergency, emergency, I'm in on it and I know things, no response. It's not an emergency, but I might be able to help you out a little. Just imagine the guy sitting around. You're saying, James, this is like tried and true. You've seen a million in these like where they do exactly pattern. And just think about the conduit. It's TMZ, right? Why go there?

if you really have useful information you're first of all you're going to the family i mean every kidnap and i ever worked that they called the family they didn't call TMZ they didn't call the local news station they called the family and said hey we got your kid we want the money that's how it works i mean it just again i think i said this the first time i was with you how unorthodox this thing has been the communication through TMZ or your local news i mean you go direct to that family and certainly if you know it's savannah guthrie you go to her directly hey, here you go. I want my money. And again, I just, I smell fraud.

And it's good publicity for, you know, TMZ, you know, and that's why they keep going there. And he's getting a good story out of it. I wish he had kind of paid it to see what would happen. He probably would have been out that money, probably. Right. Especially the south of the border ones. And we know that there was yet a third party,

not to be confused with these first two parties, that came in with a demand for ransom, that went directly to Annie Guthr. Guthry's phone. That guy's, he's been caught and he's going on trial, I think, soon for doing that. But my point is simply, Annie Guthrie's number must be pretty easy to get, or at least at that time, must have been pretty easy to get if some loser criminal was able to do it and text her. I've got your mother, you know, whatever. So if these kidnappers, you know, wanted to reach directly to the family, seems like they could have done it. You know, this Nimrod did it with Annie. You don't have to go through Savannah.

who's number is definitely going to be protected, but Annie Guthrie seemed accessible, and they didn't do it. They went through TMZ, just to bolster your point. You were going to say something, Maury. I couldn't agree with you more.

That's Derek Colella from Hawthorne, California. And I looked up when that story first hit, I tried to find their contact information, and I was able to find even some scrapings of it for both Tamaso and for Annie, because they're small business people, and they're in the area, and he's a teacher, and, you know, parents,

whatever. I could see that. I could also see, you know, some people are saying, why didn't they reach out to Savannah? Well, you, as you mentioned, Savannah obviously is going to be impossible to get a direct line into. So I agree with exactly what you're saying. Derek Colella's hearing, by the way, is July 2nd. And that's going to be interesting, Megan, because after July 2nd, his case will be adjudicated, considered adjudicated. And once, Once that happens, if there is anything more to the Derek Colella saga and this case, he's going to be able to then he'll be free to work with the prosecution. So if anything is going to come out of that, it'll come out after July 2nd. I just went back to the nerdy addict report that we had in March and that we discussed on this show. again, it dovetails with a lot of what we've heard today. But I just want to read you what nerdy reported at the time. I now have two sources confirming that one of the letters sent to the media in the Nancy

Guthrie case allegedly states the sender apologized, claiming they, so that's now Howard Bloom, this Brianna Whitney, now of crime junkie, and nerdy all saying that the, that there was an apology. Again, unclear to me whether they're saying. there was an explicit, I'm sorry, or just the tone of the letter was an apology. Howard Bloom puts apologize in quotes, that that's what he was told. And Brianna, who saw the note, says that it includes an apology. But, okay, for whatever it's worth.

He says, the sender apologized, claiming they did not realize how serious her heart condition was, and that she has, quote, gone to be with God. now that's different no one else is referencing gone to be with god we're buried with nature is where we are i can kind of see how you might confuse those two i don't know they're both sort of ethereal an ending of sorts i don't know we'll see according to these sources investigators believe the message came from the same individuals who previously demanded bitcoin though this latest letter reportedly made no demands and was framed solely as an apology while this has been validated by two independent sources, it has not been publicly released or confirmed by the media.

And then came Howard Bloom. So that's, I don't, I just find that interesting. Like, why does he have gone to be with God? And the new ones don't have that. That it was behind, I don't know, she was buried in nature. But in any event, that too confirmed back in March how serious her heart condition was and that they didn't realize it. So this, what's your bet now? Maureen, having heard all this, that Savannah's right that this probably these first two really were from the kidnapper and that this is the actual kidnapper, either saying she's going to be with God or buried in nature, but feeling bad about it or at least trying to convince Savannah and co that he or she feels bad about it.

Is that your bet that these are legit or no? I would say. Savannah and possibly the authorities are wrong. I would say they might be legitimate in that someone knows someone close to them, overheard them, a girlfriend to some of the guy. that took her as something along those lines. Just because of the position of that Apple Watch, people say that that was so specific that you really could not have been able to know that. And it's not like seeing it on the nightstand. It's something like they ripped it off her wrist and they threw it and it landed something like under the dishwasher in the kitchen,

some random spot that you would not know that unless you were in that room, you know? Well, the other thing is the pajamas. Like, I don't think you actually actually. she could know what pajamas Nancy owned from what we saw on the Today Show. That's the one thing. I agree with you, James, on the Apple Watch and the floodlight. You could get both of those if you were a contractor inside the house, potentially,

if the Apple Watch were just in a generic place. You know, like she charge, you see where the charger is, and that's where she charges it, and you're there as the cleaner, and you mark it at in your mind. But what pajamas she had, that would be something, you know, you'd have to be her housekeeper, basically, I think, to know that.

And what pajamas she was wearing when she was abducted, that's, that would convince me. Did you have that? I think, you know, if you- Do you have that somewhere? Yeah, that's what they're reporting, that Howard is actually just referencing back to earlier reporting that they, they knew what she was wearing, that the outfit correctly described what Guthrie had been wearing. That's what he, how he phrases it.

And they went further and said she didn't have her slippers with her or something to remember. Megan way back. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So that, if that if, and you know, we don't know, but if they had that, that would convince me too. What do you make of the possibility that this is more than one person, Maureen, and the theory that Porchman is not the sophisticated Bitcoin and letter writer? Well, with regard to the sophistication of that letter, I've said from the beginning that, you know, chat GPT does great job.

You could, I mean, even if you had to translate it, for example, and then say make it sound more sophisticated, you can do that and it does it fine. And I know that Harvey said, oh, it doesn't look like chat GPT. I'm not sure how he would know that, but okay, he does have a tech team. So I think that it's been my opinion since the beginning, that it's probably two people. because any more than two, you're just exponentially increasing your risk. But Jim Clemeny, the, fits this old partner, and also an FBI profiler, he said he's seen no evidence that there's more than one person. So he's been trying to train my brain to think that the possibility does exist, that it could just be one person. If it is one person, they had to use some sort of a dolly to move the body. It's just too heavy.

even if she was slightly ambulatory it's it's you know she was bleeding presumably from her face and so and you're going to have to do something to restrain or if you're going to put her in a car and take her someplace and to your point about the kidnappers and Mexico and stuff like that the vast majority of the of the kidnappings that we see in this country are drug related and and by that I mean someone has a loaded dope and they get pulled over by police and the dope gets seized, whoever those people are, they're still on the hook to the cartel to pay them for the money that they owe them. And so oftentimes that's what will spark a kidnapping. Now, that kidnapping in a situation like that, the victim will stay with, like, sometimes a couple that we've worked here,

they've stayed with a family until the money is paid and then they release them. And I'm sure James can speak to that also. So, you know, going down to Mexico, they, what's happening here is far afoul from that because they're not, they're not running this operation like a cartel would run a kidnapping because it's a hit and run, get it done, get the cash, get her out of there. You know, that is not what happened here. Not only that, but James, nothing. you could have done could have changed the outcome. We never intend, that does that sound like a Mexican drug cartel to me, but I am an amateur? Not the ones, not the ones I've worked. They don't speak that way and they don't write notes like that, frankly. So no, but that's just my experience.

So that's not, that's not the norm. But what do you make of multiple people? Yeah. You know, ruling out the Mexican gang doesn't mean it's not like a gang of two Americans. And let's not forget about how the back door was propped open, propped open by like a planter or something. Yeah, I've always felt... This guy was trying to come in through the front door. We believe he exited with Nancy through the front door. But I think the working theory is that he will end up getting in through the back door since the door was propped open with something. Yeah, I've always felt it was multiple people. I still don't, you know, I don't know how you get the guy on the porch

saying she's with nature and we're terribly sorry. I just don't put those two together. I think it's a team. I think it always has been. I don't really believe these ransom notes are legitimate. If there was any type of desire to get paid, which they always want to get paid in these situations, they would have extended a lot more effort to make that happen, and they didn't. So I think it's interesting, but I just, I know scammers, and I just feel so frequently that, you know, this is a scam. They're playing a game. They're trying to get paid. They've been proven anything to me. And just to go back to your point real quick about if they did have specificity about her nightgown, and I know you said something like you'd be convinced, well, I wouldn't be.

I'd still need to know more. I'd need to know how many people went into that crime scene. How many people would have known, you know, what she was wearing? Who did they talk to? I mean, I would still need to go a long way before I could fundamentally say, yeah, that's them without them showing me a picture of her or letting me talk to her. I'm just, you know, as an FBI, going to say to the family, yeah, they've got her. Let's pay. Let's do what we need to do. I'm just not going to do that because there's nothing here yet that proves to me, yeah, they had her, but they had Ms. Guthrie. You know, you're raising good points because I'm thinking we did a week, fraud week one year when I was on vacay and we did a pre-taped five series episodes,

five episode series. That was June of two years ago, June of 2024. And we played as the final episode of Fraud Week, my own families attempted defrauding, where my husband's mother, as you point out, the elderly, who at the time was 86, I think 85, and she received a phone call from a hysterical woman claiming to be her daughter, her own daughter, saying she'd been in a car accident, no, saying that she and her partner had been pulled over by the and accused of drunk driving, excuse me, and that her partner had punched out the cop. And meanwhile, she and her partner don't drink. But, like, it was COVID. So, like, you never knew, you know, like, people were behaving weird. Right. So that he punched out the cop and they were both in jail and they needed to be bailed out

ASAP. And could she please call, could the mother please call Diane's lawyer? and she gave her mom, in quotes, her lawyer's number, her public defender. And Jackie, Doug's mom, called us hysterical. She was like, oh, my God, Diane has had this terrible incident. She and Brad are both in jail. And I spoke with her. She's like, I spoke with Diane.

I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. What happened? And it was all a fraud, but it was so sophisticated, you guys. He had at least three people involved in the fraud with him, different actors who called, who played the court clerk, who played his assistant, who played the 1-800. It was like the amount of money they threw into trying to get Doug's mother to, it was just crazy.

And we almost fell for it. They had us. They had us on the line, for sure, James. They, you know, there but for the grace of God. Yeah, they're really good. I help clients every day with call spoofing and how to avoid it, how to mitigate it, how to calm down, you know, bring the anxiety way down.

There's an easy way to do it because they're pushing the right, buttons. That's why you felt that, Megan. You felt like, God, this sounds real because they're pushing the right buttons. They know what they're doing. And there's a way to beat them, but you got to, you know, take the first step. You can't do it if you're running. You've got to pump the brakes. Can't put too much stock into those letters. That's a good reminder. But we do know one thing, which is Nancy's gone and someone was on that front porch. That's right. And Maureen O'Connell says they may be getting closer to figuring out who that was. Him, thank you.

Great to see you again. Great to you. See you. Thank you. Further updates to follow. Wow. What a crazy story. I mean, like that's quite the update, right?

Maureen's update is bigger than anything we came to air with. That they're, she's 75% sure that they're closing in on Porch Man. I mean, that would be, that would be everything. That's the one who took her. I don't know whether he's the one writing the notes, whether he's the one who masterminded it. But clearly that's the one who took her. And if we find him, then it's ballgame. Still saying prayers for Nancy and Savannah and their whole family,

which is still, as she points out, in agony. Let us know your thoughts. You can email me, Megan at Megan Kelly.com on that or any other aspect of today's show or the news. Look forward to hearing from you and we will be back tomorrow with more. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.