The Megyn Kelly Show - Biden's Title IX Sham, Abolishing the Department of Education, and Hard Work, with Betsy DeVos | Ep. 375

Episode Date: August 17, 2022

Megyn Kelly is joined by Besty DeVos, former Education Secretary and author of "Hostages No More," to talk about Liz Cheney's big loss in Wyoming, the constant focus on January 6, the latest on the FBI's Trump raid, CDC's awful COVID policies for schools, teachers union leadership focus on schools over kids, Elizabeth Warren focusing on herself, what's really behind America's teacher shortage, a lack of merit-based evaluation for teachers, the chilling of free speech on college campuses, indoctrination in schools, the value of abolishing the Department of Education, how Title IX is being weaponized under the Biden administration, how Biden "sexually harassed" DeVos based on his own administration's policies, what will happen in 2022 and 2024, restoring due process on college campuses, resigning after January 6, growing up and working hard, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. On the program today, former Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. I am so excited to talk to her. I've been wanting to talk to her for forever, it seems. She's here for the full episode, and there is so much to cover. We're going to get to her thoughts on the nationwide teacher shortage and the teachers union boss, Randy Weingarten, blaming Republicans for this. Republicans. We'll also tackle Joe Biden recently scrapping DeVos's Title IX regulations. These are the ones that, among other things, restore due process for men who get accused

on college campuses of sexual harassment or assault. Well, the Biden administration is about to throw those out. And not only that, but they're saying that schools have to now respect students' gender identity and they could impose penalties on students who don't use the declared pronouns of choice by their classmates. We're becoming Canada. This is what got Jordan Peterson in trouble in Canada. They made it a law. This is the next best thing. Betsy herself has also been in the news lately. The January 6th committee reportedly wants to hear from her. So will she cooperate? So we'll get to all of that. And we are also going to get into why in her new book, she calls Elizabeth Warren one of the coldest people she's ever met. Her book is titled Hostages No More, The Fight for Education Education Freedom and the Future of the American Child. Betsy, so great to have you here. Thanks for coming on the show.

Thanks so much, Megan. It's great to be here with you. Oh my gosh, there's so much I want to go over with you. What's happening to education under this administration has been downright alarming. And every other week, I'm like, we got to get Betsy DeVos on. I want to talk to her about this. I want to talk about that. So, so much to go over. But if you don't mind, let's just start with news of the day because the Liz Cheney defeat is making all sorts of news. And you were in Republican politics for a long time before you became education secretary. So you know something about, you know, wins and losses and what they mean. The left wing press is calling her a martyr.

They're talking about a presidential run for Liz Cheney. She went down in flames by 30 points to her Trump back opponent for this congressional seat. And I really wonder, first of all, what your reaction is to her loss, but also why you think she lost. Well, it's a very good question. I think that originally her work to really look into January 6th and all of the happenings that day was a very valid pursuit. But I feel like she continued to make it more and more about herself. And then, you know, the race in Wyoming, her home state, it became clearer and clearer that the national, everything that was going on nationally was going to sort of supersede everything going on there. And I just I feel sorry for her personally. But, you know, this is this is, I think, an instructive time for all Republicans. looking through the windshield to the next election. Republicans need to be focused on the policies that Joe Biden and his administration have been laying on this country.

And the people in America are suffering under their policies. We need to be attacking those policies and framing up debates and issues around policies that are going to matter to families at the kitchen tables across America. We need to be looking ahead, not in the rearview mirror. And I think it's, again, another an instructive moment for Republicans across the country. There was a CNN poll not long ago released late July that found 36, just 36 percent of Republicans believe January 6th was a crisis or a major problem. That's down seven points since February, since, you know, we've had eight hearings on this in primetime, some of them and so on. So this is not resonating

with Republican voters. And Liz Cheney is the face of it. Do you think, you know, because you say she made it about her, do you think she forgot what actually is important to voters in Wyoming? Things like inflation and gas prices and so on, as opposed to just, you know, a never ending obsession with what, of course, was a bad, bad day. But, you know, was it the worst day? Was it the day that deserves all this critical coverage forevermore, primetime hearings and so on? I'm getting the feeling that Wyoming voters didn't think so. Well, I think Wyoming voters didn't think so.

And I think voters in states all over the country are focused on the issues that they're facing every day. As you said, higher prices for all of their groceries, higher gas prices, higher prices for everything across the board. And then not to mention all of the other And those are some of the things that I talk about in the book, but they're more real to parents today than they ever were before the pandemic. And those are the things that are on the minds of voters. We're seeing it in primary races all over the country. So that's, this is exactly what I want to talk about. This is what I think her problem was. Okay., she she didn't like January 6th. I mean, there are very few people who liked January 6th. OK, and and it definitely deserves some scrutiny. We have to figure out exactly who did it and why and how cops got hurt

and so on. However, the view on Trump, especially with some distance and, you know, a couple of years under Joe Biden, I think is shifting pretty rapidly to his policy successes, especially now that we don't have his tweets every day and so on. Right. It's like he's back in the news because of the raid this week. But I do think people are starting to see the difference in policy between his administration, which you were a part of, and the Biden administration, which we're living under right now. And I think there's like we get it. January 6th. It's not getting it's getting outsized coverage versus the BLM riots and all everything else that we went through during those years. But we're focused on really catastrophic things right now from

the numbers, the economic numbers to yes, absolutely. What's happening to our children on a daily basis under this administration in the schools and around just general children issues, health care and so on. So it gets to the point where you're like, do you understand what we care about? Get over your obsession with this one terrible day. Move on to the things that will affect me and my children. Well, we've seen in primary contests all across the country, the things that are on voters' minds are those issues that are impacting them daily. And the one that I've been closest to, education, is top among them, only second to inflation and all of his colleagues in Congress have been laying heavily on Americans that are unhappy about what they're doing. And we have got to stay focused on beating Democrats and winning for Republican policies and Republican issues this fall. I definitely I mean, we're going to talk all about that. But before we do,

let me spend one more minute on news of the day, because there's the Trump raid, the raid of Mar-a-Lago or search, whatever you want to call it, pursuant to a warrant. But it looked like a like a raid with 30 FBI agents going in there. Now Trump has come out and said to it was actually Fox News Digital. He said that he reached out to the DOJ about working together, saying, quote, whatever we can do to help because the temperature has to be brought down in this country.

If it isn't, terrible things are going to happen. The people of this country are not going to stand for another scam. What do you make of that? And what do you make of the raid? Well, first of all, it was unprecedented. And I think it just is. I mean, the FBI has a lot of explaining to do, as does the DOJ. I mean, this is the same FBI that has gone out to investigate parents for speaking up at school board meetings on behalf of their kids. I mean, the trust level

there has been has taken a major hit on multiple different occasions and for multiple reasons. And so there is, you know, this is an issue that we have got to grapple with and that the DOJ and FBI have got to address forthrightly with the American people. We have got to be able to trust the highest legal body in our country, and yet some of the moves they've made in the last year and a half have left us dumbstruck over what's been happening, not the least of which is parents who have been made to feel or called, literally called domestic terrorists for simply caring about and wanting answers about their children's educations. Do you think Merrick Garland has gone full partisan?

Well, it certainly appears that he has. It feels that way. And and again, I think these are really serious issues that everybody's got to take a step back and and look objectively at what's been going on and really address the concerns that Americans validly have about that entity and about the FBI. Betsy, what's going to happen if these guys put Donald Trump in handcuffs and actually indict the former president of the United States on some Presidential Records Act charge related? It's not even a criminal statute, but they're kind of using the criminal law to get after him for allegedly keeping classified and other documents down at Mar-a-Lago. What's going to happen if they do that to him? Well, I don't want to go to a hypothetical

like that. But again, I think the the actions by the DOJ and the FBI on this and other matters have really put a lot of Americans on edge. And rightfully so, there are answers that have not been forthcoming. And there are actions that have just made normal Americans made to feel like they are somehow out of step. And again, I think of those parents for whom investigators were sent in by the FBI when we have other matters of serious domestic terrorism and other terrorism incidents or threats thereof that go unresponded to and or unaddressed.

So, again, the the DOJ and FBI really do have a lot of explaining to do and and a long way to go to regain their credibility. Yeah, they won't investigate the people protesting outside of conservative Supreme Court justices' homes, including, you know, the one guy who showed up to assassinate Justice Kavanaugh. But they have plenty of time to go raid Mar-a-Lago and spend time on documents. It's infuriating for a lot of people who, even Trump critics, it's just infuriating to watch how these wheels of justice are applied to run over certain people, especially if they have an R after their name. On the subject of Jan 6th, there are reports that you're cooperating with the committee and may testify. Is that true? Well, I've not had any contact with the committee. And really what I have to say about it is recorded in my book. The day of January 6th was an awful day on many accounts for many different

reasons. And I ultimately felt the need to step away from my position as a result of a lack of action taken on the part of the president to put an end to it or to call for an end to it. And as I, you know, have reflected upon in my book, it was a difficult day for all of us. But leaders have to step into moments like that and make sure that we are doing everything we can to, you know, right the ship to stabilize things. And that was very much what I felt my part to play in that particular moment was. So just to be clear, CNN is reporting that you have been in talks with the House Select Committee

investigating January 6th. Are you denying that? I have not been in contact, nor has any of my team been in contact with CNN or anyone. So once again- Not with CNN, but been in contact with CNN or anyone. So once again, that was CNN. But you you in contact with House. That was inaccurate. That is inaccurate. OK. Oh, you're telling me CNN got the facts's spend a minute on the fact that you resigned early. I mean, you're only going to be there for another 12 days or so. But you, Elaine Chao, and there was one other person, I can't remember who it is off the top of my head, but you resigned after January 6th and January 7th. And I understand why the fever was high and it was just the whole thing was overwhelming emotionally for a lot of people. But do you have any regrets about that now with some distance between the event and today? I do not. I really felt that it was the right thing to do at the moment. First of all, all the work that I could have accomplished in that job, in that office, serving the American people had been accomplished at that point. And there was nothing more that we could really do on behalf of students. And I just felt very,

I put myself in the position of a young child watching what was going on, on TV that day. And it was, it was hard to see, it was difficult to, to watch and, and, and, you know, almost impossible to understand in many ways. So I just felt that it was a point at which I could no longer continue to remain in the role I had and serve in the way that I was. And I, I, you know, did what I thought was the right thing at the moment. And no, I don't have regrets looking in hindsight on it. I think, you know, as expressed in my letter of resignation, this was a moment where I felt it was important to thrown under the what was thrown under the bus that day. And that was a particularly poignant moment as well. It's pretty crazy how he's been demonized by some in the hardcore MAGA crowd, right? It's like,

what was Mike Pence's sin again? I can see why you don't like him if you're on the left. But really, if you're on the right, you'd be hard pressed to find a guy more loyal to Donald Trump than Mike Pence. That's just the one thing he would not do was contest the certification of the vote, which was not his role. He was not allowed to do that no matter what Trump had been advised or was telling his people. So it's truly tough to like, why? Why does this hardcore group within the MAGA, most, you know, avid MAGA fans hate Mike Pence? Yeah, I think it's a very good question. I mean, he was unfailingly faithful to and loyal to President Trump for the whole time in the administration. He was a huge asset to the administration and really was a great spokesperson for the president's policies, as were many others in the cabinet and in the administration. So, again, I just, I don't have any regrets in hindsight about having we can turn around and move forward and look ahead instead of continually looking in the rearview mirror and second guessing everything. We have we have real foes to defeat in the policies and people that are represented in the opposite party. And we have real harms to point to being levied on Americans across the country in terms of the policies that this administration has put forward.

And so that's where our focus really needs to be, moving ahead and moving our party forward to win elections and reclaim, you know, majorities so that we can put policies back in place that are going to actually help and improve Americans lives. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, in your field in particular, it's amazing how much the policies have differed administration to administration, Obama, Trump, now Biden, and the pendulum keeps swinging back and forth to the point where I'm sure a lot of these schools are like, Oh, my God, you know, like, now Biden. And the pendulum keeps swinging back and forth to the point where I'm sure a lot of these schools are like, oh, my God, you know, I don't get too comfortable with any of these guidelines because they're going to switch in four years. Can I ask you, though, because you

do write about this in your book about your you considered possibly trying to invoke the 25th Amendment after January 6th. And it sounds like although, you know, you didn't want to reveal substance of conversations with people like Mike Pence, it sounds to me like he stopped it. Like Mike Pence was the one who he was loyal to Trump and said, that's not going to happen. Well, I yes, I don't want to talk about my conversations with him or others. But again, I think in moments of crisis, leaders need to lean in and step forward and look at what the options are to ensure that the ship is steadied and things are stabilized. And so my conversations were with others to ensure that we were doing everything we could in our roles to do just that. Did you think President Trump was unsteady?

You know, I thought over the last weeks after the election, the times that I had to interact with him, I felt, first of all, I felt very sorry for him in that he was very isolated in the White House. And, you know, it was a different time during a lot of the COVID protocols where, you know, you could do things and then not do things again. Anyway, the isolation, I think, was not helpful. And he listened to fewer and fewer people around him. And I think that was tough. That was tough to see. It was tough to watch. And, um, and so I, you know, I had concerns about that continued, uh, isolation and, and taking advice and counsel from fewer and fewer people. You know, it's like you get feedback and

I realize when you're president, when you're the actual candidate, you get it from more than the media. But on election night and thereafter, the media tends to be the main vehicle through which we get election results and we find out, you know, what happened in places like Arizona, Michigan, what have you. escalated and four years of vicious attacks and impeachments and Russiagate and all of it. And then he's kind of being asked to just trust what these people are saying about him while the pylon reaches epic levels. Right. I mean, yes, in part because of what he was saying about the election and so on. But the trust was so fractured. There was no trusting it. And I don't think he trusted a lot of these state officials either who were giving him this feedback, Republican or Democrat, because even within the Republican Party, you had never Trumpers. You know, it just reminds me of almost a soldier who doesn't really know who his constituency is and doesn't really in the fog of war, you know, we were in unprecedented times trying to navigate through COVID and everything surrounding that. scrutiny and pylons at every turn and every front, it was difficult. I mean, the entire time of President Trump's administration, all of us had to continually battle what seemed to be incessant attacks on everything that we did. And, you know, there was less and less focus on the merits of the policies that were being presented and promoted and more and more on personality and who said what about whom.

And so the erosion of trust was across the board. And that's, you know, that's understandable. And we are in that same kind of an environment today. And so it's even more important for leaders. And I would encourage all leaders within our party to really step up and and lead constituents around platforms that people will be confident of and demonstrate trustworthiness by being your same self in public and in private. And, you know, the issue of trust is one that goes very wide and deep in our country, I'm afraid. And I have, you know, I continue to have real concerns about where we go from here if we do not come back together and talk honestly about policies that are going to make a difference for families, but from a platform of being able to

trust and have valid discussion and debate of ideas. And, you know, this is one of the things that I think about when we talk about the lack of free speech on campuses, this ability to discuss and debate ideas openly and without fear of retribution, but to be able to openly debate and share ideas and thoughts and helping equip students to be able to do that in a way that is going to be constructive for them. These are really important foundations that I think way too many students are not being afforded. They aren't being challenged by. They're not getting it in K through 12. They're not getting it in college education now. Even in law schools now, they're trying to shut down debate and give people safe spaces if they hear arguments that upset them. Welcome to being a lawyer.

So, yeah, it's not just an education problem, though. And then it follows you out when you get into the business world. And if you go into government and we're seeing it, this problem is becoming truly ubiquitous. One word about the Democrats. I will never forget the moment where President Trump signed prior to his State of the Union that year, the Anti-Sex Trafficking Act. And you had people like AOC sitting cross armed, refusing to clap when he mentioned it. It's like, really? You can't spare a moment of applause for the Anti-Sex Trafficking Act? That's too far a bridge for you to cross to just say, hey, I realize it's Trump and I hate him, but I support. That's just how hardcore partisan things have gotten and just crazy.

It's annoying. Now, I was I was actually encouraged when many Republicans stood up and applauded Nancy Pelosi's trip to Taiwan. And I thought that was a good moment. That was a little glimmer of hope. But no, we have got to come around to being able to applaud good ideas, no matter where they originate from, and to being able to debate those ideas. So do we think, to put a pin on it, that what would you think about Donald Trump being arrested? Do you think he should be prosecuted for January 6th, which is what they're really trying to do?

You know, I don't have any knowledge of what is going on in that investigation or what the foundational allegations are. And so I would not speculate what next steps might be. What I would go back to is that the erosion of trust in the FBI and the DOJ are very serious matters. And whatever their next steps or moves are, they had better be thinking very carefully about what they're going to do and what impact that's going to have across the country. And, you know, I think

this is a very, very difficult moment. And people have valid concerns about this highest legal body in our nation not doing things on behalf of all people, but having a politicized agenda. And so, you know, let's let's make sure let's urge them to be very circumspect about what whatever their next steps might be. I do think it's kind of curious that, are you open-minded to a criminal prosecution of trauma? I mean, even in my position, I can say it's never been done before. You're going to try to get him for a bad legal theory on Jan 6th, or you're going to get him for having documents he was cooperating over on the Mar-a-Lago front?

It'll tear this country apart. It will tear us apart. It is there is prosecutorial discretion, even if he has committed a document crime. I guarantee you a bad legal theory does not make a crime on the Jan 6th lane. I'm surprised that you won't go that far. No, I mean, I can't I cannot imagine a scenario under which there's grounds for that to happen. But I have been shocked and surprised by the moves that the DOJ and the FBI have made in these most recent days. And frankly, in the months before this, again, going back to when parents are- I know, but I was asking, should they? Should they?

Not will they? I mean, will they? Yeah, I think they will. But should they? That's the question. I don't I mean, I'm certainly not aware of anything that would would warrant that. And and I would be shocked if there is grounds to do it. Yeah. You seem like you're close to Mike Pence. It seems like he's going to run. He's certainly, you know, intimating that. So we very well could have a primary with Pence and Trump running against one another. Would you who would you support? Well, I'm focused right now on the elections this fall, and I think that's where all Republicans should be focused. We need to win races and win back majorities in both chambers and at state houses and in governor's mansions across the country. And I think that 24 will be very much informed by who is supportive of what and how

and how we are actually working in tandem to move the party and the ideas of the party forward. And then I think after this, this November, we're going to have lots of time to talk about what next. But there's there's certainly no end of speculation about what the matchups might be. So you could you could vote for Donald Trump. I'm not going to speculate. I don't do hypotheticals. I really don't. I never have. Well, no, I understand. I'm just wondering, because because you resigned, you know, does that make it impossible that you would support him if he going to run for another term. And I may be a minority of Republicans that feel that way. But again, I think we need to stay focused on this fall's elections and let's see what happens then and then what unfolds beyond that. We have a lot of issues to deal with as a party, but more importantly and more broadly, this country has a lot of issues to deal with because we have a formidable opponent and

opponents in the Democrats that are continuing to wreak havoc on our country and on families across the country. And we have got to turn the tide and and, you know, reverse course on policies that are harming families and that are precluding kids from getting a high quality education and preparing for the future. Well, you're not wrong. I mean, what we see happen in these midterm elections definitely will affect who's going to be the chosen Republican nominee and potentially who's going to be the chosen Republican nominee and potentially who's going to be the Democratic nominee if Joe Biden doesn't run or even if he just gets primary. In that, you know, I was thinking about it today because the latest polling for a lot of the Trump

backed Republican candidates in several of these states, even J.D. Vance in Ohio, who was and I think still is, you know, in general favored to win this race, is behind by five points. Carrie Lake is showing behind in her general election battle, though she's got tons of GOP enthusiasm behind her. So I'm I'm fascinating to see how that one comes out. Pennsylvania, you got Mehmet Oz, who's struggling against this guy who's basically been off the campaign trail dealing with the after effects of a health scare. And so it's like all these guys lose and the Republicans don't take back the Senate because they went too Trumpy in the nomination of their candidates. That could affect presidential politics. We'll have to see, as you point out. Okay, let's turn the page from the politics discussion to the education discussion. And

let me squeeze in a quick break before we do that, because there's tons, tons to get through. And Betsy DeVos is somebody who actually did some good when she was in this office. So what does she think about what's happening in it now. This just in the New York Times, putting out an article about the CDC. I think you'll find this interesting since what they did directly affected what you did and what people under your auspices had to do during the pandemic. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the CDC Centers for Disease Control, delivered a sweeping rebuke today of her agency's handling of the coronavirus pandemic, saying it had failed to respond quickly enough and needed to be overhauled. She outlined in broad terms a plan to reorganize the agency structure to prioritize public health needs and efforts to curb continuing

outbreaks and to put less emphasis on publication of scientific papers about rare diseases. This grew out of an external review she had ordered in April after months of scathing criticism of the CDC's response. Its public messages on masking, points out the Times, and other mitigation measures were sometimes so confusing or abruptly modified that they seem more like internal drafts than carefully considered proclamations. Leaders of the agency's COVID team rotated out over a few months, leaving other senior federal health officials unsure about who was in charge. Well, you and the audience and I know that one of the people in the room making decisions, quote, in charge, was Randy Weingarten and the teachers unions, which had their fingerprints all over the guidance

that was being handed down to American schools, even though they didn't have the children's best interests at heart, they cared only about themselves. And I don't think this is going to change any of that. The CDC's one-liner about how it could have done better isn't going to change anything, including the American public's faith in it. What do you think? No, you're absolutely right, Megan. And the notion that the teachers unions with Randy Weingarten leading the pack were editing the proposed CDC guidance over months and had a direct pipeline to the CDC to shape and form what came out of there that impacted millions of kids'

lives and kept schools shut down months longer than they should have been. Parents aren't going to forget. Grandparents aren't going to forget. And importantly, kids who have suffered aren't going to ultimately forget. The implications of how this was navigated aren't going to be fully known for years. The kids who are shut out for up to two years from their school in person are forever impacted. And all kids, no matter how well their school responded or their system responded, are impacted negatively in some way. We know that the mental health issues, the social and emotional well-being of kids has been negatively impacted regardless. And so this seems like very little, very late, and is, I think, trying to put a little bit of lipstick on a pig.

Mm-hmm. Can I ask a basic question? Why does Randi Weingarten care only about her union, and I guess some of the teachers in it and not at all, apparently, for the children who they're teaching? Well, I mean, let's be honest. This is about power and it's about resources and it's about ability to impact decisions regarding power and resources. And the teachers unions, I prefer to call them the school unions because I don't think they represent teachers, certainly not good teachers who have a focus on and heart for kids. They are focused totally on adult issues and protecting a system that for years, for decades now, has not been serving a lot of kids. A high percentage of kids in this

country has not been serving them well. They have resisted change at every step. They have tried to strong arm and muscle elected officials to fall into line with their agenda, which basically protects their livelihoods and their power and their ability to continue to expand their livelihoods and their, their power. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a vicious circle. And, and, and, you know, that was revealed the last couple of years, they had, they have definitely overplayed their hand at every step. And, and now they're trying to, you know, wind it back in some way and suggest that it's the parents and it's that, you know, it's the other party that was actually politicizing all of this. No, it was not.

It was the teachers unions at the core of all of, you know, what happened to kids these last two years. And parents had a front row seat and they know it. I'm going to play that soundbite in a second, but can you just tell us, because this is in the book, about your experience with Randy Weingarten and touring the schools of choice, yours and hers? Yeah. So on my first day in office, I called both Randy and Lily Eccleston-Garcia, who was head of the NEA then. Lily refused to even speak with me or meet with me ever. And I never did have a conversation with her, although I reached out and said, I know we have some things we can find and work on together and common on behalf of students. Unbelievable.

That's the largest teachers union in the country, just refusing to meet with the secretary of education. Okay. Right. Yes. Randy did take my call and we had a pleasant conversation. We both agreed that she would visit a school of my choosing with me and I would visit a school of her choosing with her. We scheduled her school visit first and it turned out to be a very nice visit to a rural school district in Ohio, Van Wert.

And we had a pleasant visit, a pleasant day. And it was great to see kids working, learning, great teachers. I think she took me to that district because it was a heavily Republican district, a, you know, a stereotypical, you know, rural school, one high school in a, you know, a large geographic area. emblematic of what some rural Republican legislature legislators have maintained that, you know, there really aren't choice other choices for kids in rural districts. But I think, you know, what we saw there was that actually there were 20 or 25% of the kids in that area whose parents were choosing something different for them because that particular assigned school didn't work. But all that to say, the visit was fine. It was great. But she refused then to actually schedule a visit to a school of my choosing. And so that never did happen.

Unfortunately, it would have been, it would have been, I would have made sure that, you know, she had a good experience and then hopefully would have learned something. Again, focusing on students brings you to a lot of different kinds of solutions than focusing on a system and on adult issues. She's not in the market for solutions, right? She's in the market for politics. And she didn't want to photo op with you on your terms, you know, on your turf of your school of choosing. And frankly, it reminds me of the Elizabeth Warren story from your book. The book is full of interesting anecdotes about people whose names our audience will be very familiar with. And Elizabeth Warren, during your confirmation hearing, this is unbelievable. So nasty.

You have a tough back and forth during the the confirmation hearing. She's obviously not a fan, but like the classy lady you are, you go over to her at the end and offer your hand. Actually, we have videotape of this. Is it a soundbite, Deb, or is it a videotape? It's a it's a OK. Yeah, it's rolling. OK, you go over, you try to shake her hand.

She doesn't shake your hand. What do you make of that? Why? Why wouldn't she? I don't know. I mean, I can't get into her head, and I don't want to, frankly. But it was just another indication to me of an unwillingness to really focus on what we were there for, which is for what is best for students and their futures. How are we going to prepare

our kids to take their place in leadership in the next, in the coming generations, if we cannot work together to ensure that they have a great quality K-12 education experience. You know, Elizabeth Warren was very single-focused in her ability to zero in on issues that were important to her. And she has, I think to a large extent, she has overtaken President Biden and his administration in getting her way with what's happening at the Department of Education today. I mean, we see this back and forth on what they're going to do with student loans and student debt and loan forgiveness. And it is Elizabeth Warren's mission to forgive all student debt,

essentially. And so, you know, that is antithetical now to what we've heard President Biden say on more than one occasion, that you can't just go and forgive student debt. So, you know, I think she has continued to wield her way. And and this is ultimately to the detriment of students and families and taxpayers across the country. at least when it's a democratic administration, that in fact, it's the teachers unions who will approve or disapprove of someone nominated to your position. That's how much control they have. And you're right to make the distinction between the teachers and the unions. I know a lot of great teachers who don't want to join the union, who say the union doesn't speak for them, who don't share the union's politics, but it's a near impossibility to really distance yourself from them. On Randy Weingarten. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just going to say, and think about how many teachers have left the profession out of frustration because of the heavy handedness of the union. Hold that thought, hold that thought, because I'll get you to say that on the opposite side of the Randy Weingarten reasoning for the teacher shortage. According to the unions, we're short 300,000 teachers going into this year. That's the unions. The Wall Street Journal puts it as at tens of thousands, which is ambiguous. But we definitely have a teacher shortage. I mean, that is true. And how bad it is, it's bad. We just don't know quite how bad. So here's Randy Weingarten speaking on why, why we have a teacher shortage. Listen.

You have fewer people going into the profession. You have a hot labor market where teachers can get 20% more for the skills and knowledge they have teaching in non-teaching jobs. You have all of the pandemic stress and strain, particularly that kids are coming in with greater needs because of two years of disruption. And then you have all of the politics, the culture wars, the shaming and blaming, the banning of books, the censoring of curriculum. And because of the hot market, we have to have salaries where teachers, you know, salaries that are competitive. What do you make of that? Well, she's trying to blame a shortage of teachers on factors that don't, they weigh into it,

but they're not the reason for teacher shortages or the, you know, why teachers are leaving the profession. I mean, I think about, you know, great teachers who wanted to be in the classroom while their schools continued to be shut down for months on end. I think about the, I think about the, you know, the teachers that I met with who for a year were, you know, the teacher of the year in their district or in their state and had taken their victory lap. And then a few months after getting back into their classroom, left the profession. I wanted to know why. And they said almost to a person, they were so frustrated with the fact that they were told to kind of get back in their box after they came back from their year of acknowledgement and recognition, instead of being given more opportunities to help mentor others or prepare younger teachers for the kind of experiences that they have had. And I think the teacher unions,

the school unions have deprofessionalized what should be a highly honored and respected profession. And great teachers need to have the opportunity to be great and to help other teachers be great. The system doesn't allow for that because the system doesn't acknowledge merit. The system doesn't allow for that because the system doesn't acknowledge merit. The system doesn't acknowledge that some teachers are really great and other teachers maybe should be finding a different profession because they aren't particularly effective. And I think

it all goes back to having to conform within this one-size-fits-all public government-run system that too many kids have been subjected to and are being ill-served by. I realize teachers probably generally lean left, but not all of them. There's a healthy percentage that just, if you look at the way the country's divided, will be Republican or will be conservative. And I have to imagine those teachers have had it with woke ideology being thrust upon them, upon their students. I mean, you look at what's happening in the military where we're being lectured on our white rage. We're being forced to read Ibram Kendi. You know, while all we want to do is risk our lives for our country, we don't really want to talk about skin color and things like that. And to say, oh, well, that's definitely not happening amongst the teachers who are being forced to do exactly the same thing, I think, is to have your head in the sand. What do you think? No, absolutely. There are teachers who

are leaving the profession because of being forced to teach curriculum they don't agree with. And and there you know, there's just a myriad of reasons. And again, I think the last two years really have laid bare these reasons and brought them into focus for everyone to see in ways that had been there for many years before. You know, I felt like the lone voice calling the emperor has no clothes for many years, for 30 years before, but this has been laid bare in the last two years. And all of these issues, including celebrating and supporting effective teachers

to be professional in their profession. These have been issues that have brought been brought well into the light and an opportunity for us to deal with them in ways that are going to empower families, teachers and students like never before. Well, we hope we hope so. But all right. We have to go over student loans. We have to go over trans issues in schools, which is about to get regulated by the federal the pandemic was we got to see it. You know, parents suddenly got thrust inside the classes that were open thanks to Zoom and were stunned to see what was happening, to hear what was happening on race, on gender issues. And I was one of them. I was one of the parents who was just absolutely horrified at the way my school was behaving. It wasn't that I saw it via Zoom.

It was just a slow boil over 2019, 20, and 21 for us. But I will tell you, let me start it this way. I've told my audience before. We were in private schools in New York City. I have two boys and a girl. My boys were at an all boys school, one of the best in the country. And they were not only asked on a weekly basis whether they were still sure that they were boys, the entire class,? Sure, you're boys. You might not be a boy. They got rid of the term son. But when it came to race post George Floyd, they circulated what they wanted to be mandatory reading for the faculty saying in every classroom where white children learn, there is a future killer cop and white mothers indoctrinate their children in black death. Okay, so how did that happen? How did that kind of instruction wind up in what was traditionally one of the more traditional schools in Manhattan? And why is it happening all over the country? And what can we do to stop it? That's a loaded question for you. Well, I mean, these are great questions and ones that

parents are grappling with in ways that they had never envisioned a few years ago. These are not new issues. These curriculums and these tendencies have long been seeded in our traditional public education system, and they've spilled over into many private schools. And you can wind it back to the preparation that many educators have in the teachers' colleges, where the very left-leaning tendencies take root and are taught explicitly and implicitly. And we have seen now, and again, I think importantly so, families have seen firsthand what, you know, the kinds of things their children have been subtly or not so subtly subjected to in years leading up to the pandemic. And thankfully are now raising their voices and saying,

this is not for our children and we want alternatives and we demand alternatives. So this is an ideal time to put policies in place that actually do put parents back in control and give students the opportunity to have an education experience that's very different than the 175-year-old model of education that is failing too many kids and that is ridden with ideology that is antithetical to so many families. I think about the internet and how you don't want your kids, mine are 12, 11 and nine. You don't let them go on the Internet without some supervision. Certainly not for long periods of time.

You don't let them get sucked into Reddit rabbit holes. You know, like that's bad things happen. Even when they're playing their games on like an iPad. Got to keep one eye out there because these predators do pop up in these forums. And once if there's a chat feature, you got to watch it like a hawk. Why? Because you don't want your child to be hurt or groomed, you know, or subjected to somebody who is dangerous for them. That's what's happening in schools. We're subjecting them to somebody who may be dangerous for them, who wants to create something out of them other than just a loving, good citizen. They want to create somebody who's a left-wing

activist. And that's not their purview. That's not their remit, right? I mean, it's infuriating, especially for parents who can't homeschool because they have two parents who work, or they have a single mom in the family, or for whom private school is not an option because they don't really have school choice in their area. Yeah, no, absolutely. But this is the silver lining in that 26 states in this last year expanded school choice, education freedom programs, expanded or created ones in states where they didn't exist before. And they're more on the cusp of doing so. And so education freedom policies. Where the money follows the student. Is that what you're talking about?

Yes. Where the money follows the student. I like to use the metaphor of the backpack where the kids go to school every day with what they need for the day. Metaphorically, we attach the funds that are already being spent on that child to that backpack for the family to decide where they're going to buy their children's education. And I think about the school, the school that really sort of set me off on the whole journey of activism in education policy, the Potter's House School in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's a faith-based school in the heart of the city that serves that immediate vicinity, mostly low, all low-income families, students there, they have to raise 90% of the operating

funds from benefactors every year because the families can't afford it themselves. But these kids are in an environment where they're thriving. There could be five more of those Potter's House schools today when families are empowered with those resources to make those choices and to choose a school like the Potter's House of one that matches their family values. That's the furthest along in the range of choices. And importantly, also Arizona that just passed a universal statewide education savings account program. So any family that wants to send their child to a different place for school can do so with 90 percent of the money that's spent on that child annually in Arizona. So around $7,500 a child could be spent, whether they want to do a homeschool, you know, a hybrid homeschool, kind of a one-room schoolhouse thing, or they want to go to a school like a potter's house, they will have those options. And importantly, more options like that will be created as families are empowered with those with the money following their children. Fun little aside here. So Betsy DeVos used to

be Betsy Prince. She's from Michigan that your family's from Michigan. Your dad was in auto parts, self-made, grew up in a humble house. But then things really started to take to take off for him. And by the way, your your brother's Eric Prince of Blackwater, which up in a humble house, but then things really started to take off for him. And by the way, your brother's Eric Prince of Blackwater, which is also a fun fact about you. But I did not realize that one of the key to your dad's success was coming up with the lighted mirror on the car visor. It's brilliant. You come from a long line of brilliant people. That's amazing. Yes, yes. I recall fondly working in the early stages of that factory. First of all, when I was in junior high, the first year the factory was in operation, we were making very few visors then because it was just getting off the

ground. But I inspected, packed, and shipped the visors that summer between, I think, my seventh and eighth grade years. And then went on and worked a third shift in the visor plant when it was up and running more, you know, robustly a couple of years later. And I had the worst job in the plant since I was the core of the visor off the injection molding machine and put a rubber edge band around it, a steel plate in the corner where it connected to the car, and then closed it and riveted it in about 10 or 12 places. And doing that third shift, I was amazed that I never actually riveted any fingers through those night hours from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. It was it was a great experience. That's good. Your parents made made they wanted you to have values. They wanted you to work hard. This is before I mean, you're you're known now as a wealthy woman, but you it wasn't always thus.

Your dad was self-made, wound up employing 5000 employees in the town like he was a businessman and gave back to the community. That's from what you come. And you've been successful. Your brother's been successful. Your husband's successful. My researcher tells me that you guys are the 88th wealthiest family in America. But you come by it honestly. It's not bootlegging. It's something every woman needs.

We all need the visor mirror at night when we're trying to put on our lip gloss. It's not just that product. I'm just saying it was interesting to me to see your background and see how hard you and your family worked for it. And, you know, people like to take shots at you now if you have if you have money, but you worked for years. No, I was very blessed to grow up in a home where my parents taught us the value of hard work. They also taught us the value of generosity and giving back. And they modeled that so well. My mom's still alive. She's just about 90 and continues to model that for me today. And my husband's family the same way. We appreciate and value work of all kinds. And my parents, again, really set that tone for me early on.

And I'm very grateful to them for that. Well, that's what first got you into education, as I understand it. You created a foundation. You started to make a lot of donations. And then you realized there's no amount of donations that's going to solve this problem. Like we have we need massive overhaul. It's government. That's the problem.

And I heard you speaking to Moms for Liberty, a group I also love and have spoken to saying we need to abolish the Department of Education. Like what happens? I mean, I didn't realize it's only been around since Carter until I read you. Has it been that recent that the Department of Education was created? So what happens if we get rid of the Department of Education? Well, we could still spend the same amount of money and attach it to families so they could make those decisions for their children. Department of Education, the federal budget only supplies or provides eight or nine percent of all of the funding for education, for K-12 education in our country. We spend about $750 billion every year for K-12 education, and yet only eight or nine percent of that comes from the federal government.

But all of the strings come from the federal government. So the monies that go into the department for redistribution are churned around there. The philosophical bent of those career bureaucrats that work there year in, year out, administration to administration are put on top of, you know, we did everything we could in our time there to redirect and reorient everything that we did around doing the right thing for students. That is not how the department generally operates. It really does operate with a very ideological bent and that is exacerbated in an administration like the Biden administration, where they tried to essentially kill any charter school expansion with rules that would make it impossible to open new charter schools. They're trying to do it now

with the Title IX rule that we put into place, which made dealing with matters of sexual misconduct on campuses, one that we put a framework together that was fair and balanced, predictable, and put the accuser in charge of how that would unfold, not putting them at the, as was the case before, they sometimes became almost victim to the process and due process was thrown out the window before we put the rule in place. They're trying to undo all of that. And I know you want to get into that more. So I'll just stop and just say this administration doubles down on the ideology. And so doing away with and putting the monies back into the hands of state and local government, if that's the route, or better yet, into the hands of families for their children, for children with disabilities, having the monies that support that through IDEA going to the

families to make those decisions would be a much better use and much more effective use of taxpayer dollars. The teachers unions and a lot of Democrats don't like putting the money behind the student because they don't want them to have the choice because I've heard you point out they don't think they'll win the competition. They don't they don't think they'll be the one chosen. And so that doesn't help them in their power. The charter school thing is interesting. Joe Biden came in and really unlike Obama, like Republicans wanted vouchers and they like they like charter schools, too. And then Obama came in, he didn't like vouchers. He didn't like the money following the student, but he said, okay, charters could be all right.

Not to the extent a Republican would, but he was more open-minded to it. And Joe Biden has come in and said, no, no, charters are bad. And he's pushing through this massive agenda item that would say, you can have a charter if the local public school approves it and says it's good. I mean, I'm really short forming here, but it was so aggressive that even

some top Democrats just came out. This just is happening right now and said, this is too much. You've gone too far because his proposed revision of how charter schools could get permission to operate and could exist is going to hurt black and brown people more than anybody. It's like the big charter school systems. They'll be fine. They'll be able to find a way to comply. But it's like the mom and pop operations who are in the inner city who see a need, who have a bad public school, who say, I can do better. I'm going to try and help these kids. They can't. And so they're the ones who are going to get hurt. And so like so many of his policies, he's going to wind like defund the police for as another one. It's going to come back and bite the very people he claims to care most about.

No, absolutely. Absolutely. But we have to remember, he is married to a member of the NEA and he has pledged his support to the NEA and the teachers union, school union agendas. And so this is not a surprise, but people should wake up and acknowledge that this is what's happening. There is an attack all across the board on any option and any alternative that isn't the government run, top down, federally, you know, federally focused and, you know, state executed system that so many kids are stuck in today and were let down by in the last two years. So this is not a surprise, but parents support their ability to have the choices and the options. They need to wake up and support those for elective office, both at the choices and the options. They need to wake up and support

those for elective office, both at the federal and the state level, who support their ability to do that as well. They need to understand that the Democrat Party is totally bought and paid for by the school unions and all of their allies. It's happened in a vicious cycle for many, many years, and it's become ever more evident just recently. I think people are waking up, at least to the ideology in the school. I'm not sure everybody's got the charter system figured out and all of that,

but for sure we saw during COVID, the anger over these senseless mask mandates on children and the vaccine mandates, which they're now basically admitting were senseless because mandates on children and the vaccine mandates, which they're now basically admitting were senseless because they're saying treat the vaccinated and those who have had covid the same. And virtually everybody's had covid now. So it's like, why are why were people fired? Why were kids expelled from schools for not getting them and so on? We're never getting apologies for that. And so I do think they're paying attention. So one of the things that's

gotten the attention is this so-called critical race theory in schools. That's basically just a term that covers this, you know, race essentialism in schools, making everything about skin color. You know, you've got inherent characteristics because you're black, or you've got them because you're white, or because you're Hispanic, and so on. And we see it every day. And just yesterday, it was in the news. I'm sure you saw this, but there was a story out of Minneapolis public schools where the union there negotiated a deal. Apparently it was reached in March, but it's only making the headlines now saying that you're going to fire the white people first. You got to fire anybody. The white teachers go first. We don't care about merit. We don't care about seniority. All we care about is skin color because we don't have enough black teachers here. They say that they want the teaching staff to better mirror the demographics of the tenured teachers and 27% of its probationary teachers are people of color.

And so, as it always is with some on the far left, we get to this sort of quota system where just the raw numbers must go up. No matter how bad some of these teachers may or may not be, or great some of these teachers may, that doesn't matter. Right. Well, what they're proposing to do is simply wrong, and it's illegal. And I'm sure that will be pursued. But it's also wrong for the kids that are supposed to be served. Kids need to have great teachers. And the only way they're going

to have great teachers is when merit is recognized and acknowledged. And ultimately, the only way that you're going to have, ensure great teachers is when you have an open marketplace for education. The fact that we have had a government run, a monopoly that has today yet, you know, there are more and more students leaving the system. But preemic, it was roughly 90% of the kids are in government assigned schools or government run schools. That dynamic, that number, that percentage needs to change and more families need to be able to make a decision to leave those schools if they're not working for their children. Policies that support that are ultimately going to get at that and ultimately going to ensure that kids have great teachers no matter where they go to school,

because the families are going to be choosing them and they're going to choose what's best for their kids because they care about and love their kids the best. Not no matter what Terry McAuliffe, the now losing governor of Virginia of that race, says. One of the reasons people are seriously looking at homeschooling or alternatives to this public schooling and what's available to them. And as I point out, it's not just public schools. I mean, we've been in the private schools and it was horrific in New York City. What they're doing, the indoctrination is this weird, inappropriate. I, you know, I use the term

grooming. It may or may not be that, but it's inappropriate sex talk and gender talk with children who are too young to handle that and really shouldn't be discussing that with their teachers at all. And there was an example in the news today I wanted to run by you. This is out of Montgomery County, Maryland, not just outside of D.C., where they selected the book Rick by Alex Gino, G-I-N-O, as their anchor text, making it required reading for all incoming sixth, seventh, and eighth grade students. Now, I have a rising sixth grader and I have a rising seventh grader, so I am interested in this story. They think that you're going to love exploring your own identity through the eyes of Rick. This book will enable you to enjoy it, to explore your

gender identity, self-expression, friendships, and learn the importance of standing up for one another. Okay. So let me just give me one minute on what this book is about. 12 year old Rick becomes convinced he is asexual about hearing about various sexual orientations at the rainbow spectrum after school club for LGBTQ IAP plus rights. After hearing the definition of asexuality, he searches the term on the computer, assures himself he is asexual because he's never had a crush on a girl or a boy. And he's never, quote, had that tingling in his pants grownups talk about when thinking about another person. This is absurd. Many children of this age haven't even touched puberty and also have not had a tingling in their pants and don't want to discuss asexuality. They're little children. They're

children. That's why they haven't had it. Rick's grandfather also reveals to him that he likes to cross dress and takes Rick to an event while he's dressed as a woman. So it's not enough that they, they gotta make the kid's grandpa into a transvestite. Like, pop up. Why? Pop up. What are you doing?

At the end of the book, the students put on a cabaret for money in which one student dresses and dances as a drag queen. Required reading, public school, Montgomery County, Maryland, was a very large area right outside of DC. All right, let's pause. We'll take a quick break and we'll pick it up with Rick and his cross-dressing grandpa right after this. Don't go away. Okay, so the question is, how do we stop that kind of nonsense? Well, parents need to speak up clearly for sure. And as they have been doing, and it is amazing to

me that this kind of curriculum keeps popping up all over the place, this hyper-sexualized, age-inappropriate approach to discussing these subjects. Whatever happened to actually helping kids learn to read and write and do their math and get prepared for the things that they need to know and need to learn in school, that's where they should be focused. And parents are rightfully angered by this as these kinds of examples have been popping up all over the country and continue to. I just saw a story today about suburban district outside of Milwaukee, the same issues for earlier grades. Parents have a right to know what's going on in their children's classrooms, and they have every right to speak up and demand that these kinds of materials are not taught

to their children, or they're given very clear options to take their children out if and when they are taught. But let's go back to the appropriateness of some of these things. They are inappropriate. It is inappropriate. It is inappropriate in kindergarten through second grade to be having children, suggesting to children that boys might not be boys and girls might not be girls. Those matters are for older children if and when families think they're appropriate to be discussing. And again, the focus in too many schools and in too many of these cases has been on, you know, matters that are not core to kids actually learning and progressing in their preparation for adulthood. Absolutely right. And you talk about, you know,

why don't we focus on reading and writing and so on. That story that we talked about out of Minnesota, Minneapolis, where they're saying, fire all the white teachers first, doesn't matter what kind of a teacher they are. You could be firing the best teacher in the district, just make sure she's white. That's all they really care about. That in Minnesota and Minneapolis public schools, the high school students there, only 39% are testing at or above the proficient level for reading. 23%, 23% testing at or above the proficient level for math. I mean, that is dreadful. But hey, let's focus on the race of the teachers. That's where our attention should go. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, our standings internationally vis-a-vis our competitors around the world before the pandemic were dismal. I mean, we were at 18th in science, at 13th in reading, and 37th in math. And yet, we're sitting and spending time

talking about these issues that aren't preparing kids, that aren't teaching them how to learn, that aren't, you know, setting them on a path to success. We are focused on issues that should be left to families to discuss, and certainly not discussed until an age appropriate time in a school setting. And so, again, parents had a firsthand front row seat to this, and they're letting their voices be heard. And their voices are going to be heard at the ballot boxes, and they're going to be heard in school board races, and they're going to be heard in many different dimensions of how kids ultimately get their education. You mentioned the Wisconsin story. It's like crazy. You know how

everyone to Santa's passed this bill down in Florida. I'm sure you follow that whole thing where he said, you can't do this. Don't talk about gender identity or sexual identity with children in curriculum under third grade, like third grade and under. That's not an age appropriate level. And people say, well, you know, teachers aren't going to be able to say I went out with my partner. No, in curriculum. That's the rule under that law. But Wisconsin now offering this program. This is from a National Review article in this very affluent Milwaukee suburb. I don't know how to pronounce it. Wauwatusa. They've brought in a private program developed by the National Director of Education for Planned Parenthood,

which trains students in gender ideology starting in kindergarten. By second grade, a child's expected to know that not all boys have penises, not all girls have vaginas. In third grade, they're permitted the opportunity to understand the granular nature of the gender spectrum. You've got a Venn diagram offering boys on the left, girls on the right with, quote, anyone in the overlapping section. And it goes on to, there's a bunch, but here's just a highlight from it. It says to the children, you might feel like you're a boy, even though you have body parts that some might tell you are girl parts. You might feel like you're a girl, even though you have body parts that some might tell you are girl parts. You might feel like you're a girl, even though you have body parts that some might tell you are boy parts. And you might feel like you're a boy or a girl,

like, or, or you're, or, but you may be a little bit of both. No matter how you feel, you are perfectly normal. And then they go on to talk about how you get sexually transmitted diseases in high school. Okay, that's fine. But they will only refer to a person with a cervix or a person with a penis. And they want you to discuss penetrative sex by being specific, forgive me, Betsy, but saying penis vagina sex

as opposed to just saying heterosexual sex, which is intended to make the curriculum inclusive of all genders and gender identities. I'm so uncomfortable. I'm sure I've made you uncomfortable. Forgive me, but this is beyond, this is in the heartland. This is what's going on in schools more than just the ones we've cited and talked about. This is happening all over the country. And if parents haven't awakened to this, they need to, and they need to demand that their schools get back to focusing on teaching kids what they need to learn and know in order to be able to take over as

leaders in future generations. I mean, this is, again, a representative of an ideology that has taken root for many decades now in teacher school, teacher education schools, and now seeded into schools across the country. Many parents have awakened. Many more have to. And we need to demand to get refocused on kids learning and kids being kids. I mean, it's hard growing up as a kid today. And I'm thankful mine are all grown. But now I have grandchildren the same ages as your children. And the things that they have to deal with on a daily basis, not to mention subject matters like this being forced on them in schools. It's tough enough to be a kid growing up today. Let's stay focused on preparing them to be actual contributors to society in the future and do that in ways that are going to work and unleash their opportunity, their potential and their opportunities.

You've got the Biden administration now weaponizing Title IX. I mean, they're weaponizing Title IX, which protects girls at the college level from discrimination in sports and otherwise. And they are trying to use an expanded definition of harassment now and just generally under that title to include possibly misgendering a trans person who says that he's a girl, you know, male to female who says I'm a woman and somebody uses a he pronoun, you could potentially get in trouble for that. We're seeing that already at some universities. Stanford is one of them. But they are expanding. They're trying to expand Title IX to give trans girls all the rights that biological girls have, which could be potentially problematic. And they've

tabled sports for right now under their Title IX revisions. But that's coming where they're going to mandate equality for these trans girls in sports as well. What do you make of it? Well, there's no way you can separate sports out from the rest of the implications of a Title IX rule because it's all one and the same. And so what they're proposing to do will essentially destroy women's sports. I think about the swimmer at University of Pennsylvania. I was a swimmer. I swam competitively for nine years. I was a good swimmer, not a a swimmer. I swam competitively for nine years. I was a good swimmer, not a great swimmer.

I can't imagine I would have pursued swimming and going to those early morning cold swimming pool practices if I knew I was not only gonna have to compete against good females, but against biological males as well. I think of the tens of thousands of young women who are working hard at their sports

today and face the prospect of having to deal with competing against biological males. It's not right and it's absolutely wrong for the Biden administration to say they're going to separate out women's sports from a Title IX rule, one that they're trying to decimate anyway and do away with due process, basically turn over activist Title IX coordinators to be a detective, a judge, a jury, and an executioner, all without sharing evidence against the accused, the definition of unfair. I just want to urge all of your viewers to speak into this rule. This is the public comment time right now. There's a site you can go to called protecttitle9.org. And please speak into this and say this is not where we need to go.

We need to protect the rule that we frankly put forward, which is a very fair and balanced approach to these issues that are tough, that are regrettable, but that happen. And we need to have a reliable and fair way to deal with them. The Biden administration will decimate them. ProtectTitle9.org. I think we only have until September 12th to get comments in, and then the comment period will be closed. So put your money where your mouth is, folks. If you don't want this, just go on there, offer quick comments. It's not going to take you all day. It'll be a quick event. We got to get on there because they need to hear from people. You are very right. I'm glad to hear you point that out

about the fact that they say they're staving off the decision on gender is not true, because I was actually just looking more closely at what the proposals are on the trans issue under Title IX, because there's the sexual harassment issue, too, which we'll get to. But on the trans issue, they say the new regulations are going to cover all forms of sex-based harassment, which in their view would include harassment of a trans girl and any hostile environment against such people, which would include denying or limiting a person's ability to participate in a school's activity. Now, you know that's going to be used to encompass sports and all sorts of things. So while they may say sports isn't in here as a lawyer, I could drive a truck through that.

So, yeah, you got to comment now. So let's get to the sexual harassment thing, because this is a cause near and dear to my heart. And I cheered you, cheered you openly. And then Arne Duncan sent me some nasty notes when When you created due process, Arne Duncan was Obama's Secretary of Education. You restored due process for young men accused on college campuses. Can you just give us a couple highlights of what you did and what they are undoing right now

on college campuses when it comes to people accused. And as you point out, it hurts the accusers, too. Well, the Obama administration basically stripped away due process rights from those who were accused. And you're right. Most often men. But I actually heard from a young woman who had been accused and had been an accuser in

one case and an accused in another. And in both cases, she said the school got it wrong because of that framework. So what we did was restore a framework of rights that respects both the accuser and the accused and gives them the ability to, and gives the accused the ability to know what is being alleged, to see the evidence, to hear the evidence, and to question the accuser back, not directly through third parties. So there's not the in your face back and forth, but it guarantees that all of the facts have the judge and the jury, and then the executioner, the sentencer in the situation where the accused will not be privy to all of the information and not be able to argue back. It will take away due process rights, which the courts have already applied on in many,

many cases, must be a part of these cases. So I don't know how they think they're going to survive challenges to what they propose, because it's absolutely contrary to what the laws are and what the courts have said. But this is what they're trying to do. And it's unfair to everyone involved. And it ultimately hurts those who are bringing accusations because they have to go through it all again when it's done improperly. Because what happens is these boys get expelled by a kangaroo court. They get labeled a sex offender in a proceeding in which they've had no opportunity to see the

evidence against them or to cross-examine the woman accusing them. I'll just go with the sex stereotype in this case. And in some cases, we've covered them here, there are text messages by the accuser saying, it was all me, I wanted it, and the guy has no idea this is even out there because he had no right to discovery. Then he gets labeled a sex offender, he gets kicked out of school, loses his football scholarship, what have you. Then he gets a lawyer who appeals in the federal court. And from what I read in your book, there's an over 40% reversal rate by those federal courts of these kangaroo court rulings.

So to your point, the accuser now has to go through the whole thing all over again. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't work. It doesn't. It's not right. It's not fair. And to double down on this political agenda of the Biden administration, you know, piling on top of the Obama administration's agenda to weaponize Title IX, it is just unconscionable to me. And I just hope that people will speak up. I just have to add here, I've only had one encounter with Joe Biden, and it was before he decided to run for president again. I was in a wheelchair. I was backstage after speaking. He came up to me.

I'd never met him before in my life. He came up to me, put his hands on my shoulders and his forehead on my forehead for several seconds and had conversation with me. If he had done that as a student on a college campus, under his proposed rule, I would have a Title IX sexual harassment allegation to levy against him because of his conduct. I heard from many students who had lesser encounters or lesser situations than what I had to encounter with him. And yet he wants this for college students, but will not acknowledge and agree to probes into allegations of much more egregious conduct on his part against other women. I'm just using it as an example to say this administration is so bent on trying to politicize and weaponize a law that was meant to protect women and to give them access to education, not to weaponize

it to harm others. And this is a really, really bad direction that they're taking with their proposed Title IX rule, and I hope people will speak up about it. Wait, let me just back up. You were in a wheelchair, and he came over, and he touched foreheads with you? Yes. Oh, my God. Why? It was disgusting.

You don't want to touch foreheads with anybody. I don't even touch foreheads with my husband. I mean, that's bizarre. And another example of his inappropriate boundary crossing. Exactly. What was it that he had to say? Was he saying like, I have a terrible headache and you feel like, what was he saying? How is this in any way okay to do in public? Good question. He asked if I had any hardware as a result of my injury and I had broken my pelvis. Then he told me that he had nine screws in his shoulder, but everybody thought they were in his head. And he was doing this while holding onto my shoulders with his forehead pressed to mine. And you couldn't get away to go to or escape.

I mean, it's like so you were basically harassed. The legal definition of sexual harassment by Joe Biden while in a wheelchair. That's that's our takeaway here. And as you point out, under his rules, he'd get expelled from something for it. It's crazy. Like what they're doing to young men is absolutely crazy and it's unfair. And these guys shouldn't have to worry. And women, as you point out, too, can get accused. I had a client who was harassed by a woman when I practiced law. They shouldn't have to worry about whether they're going to get due process based on who's in the White House.

You know, that's just like, oh, I hope my son graduates high school when there's a Republican in office. This is nuts. Yeah, exactly. And I actually heard stories from couples who had had a third party observe something that happened and file a Title IX, you know, allegation against the guy when both of them said, well, no, you're wrong. There was nothing going on there. And then being told, well, you're just under such trauma that you don't really understand what happened to you. Well, this is just ludicrous. And again, it is a weaponization of a rule that is meant to give all students the opportunity to pursue their education equally. Let's spend a minute on student debt. The Biden administration is hot on

this. I mean, something that he was supposedly against, but now we've got midterms coming up, so you know how that works. He's considering, they're saying we're going to get a decision on this by the end of August. Considering using executive action to provide $10,000 of debt relief per borrower. Many progressives want it to be closer to 50,000. He's weighing it for those who make 100, 125,000 as an individual up to 250,000 for families. So those people do not need debt forgiveness. They are very well off by American standards, but that's who's going to get it under this potential proposal. They also are looking at how they could automate

loan forgiveness without requiring borrows to even fill out an application form. Just one swoop of the magic wand. They're looking at ways to cancel debt for borrowers who are in default. Okay, so just anybody who didn't pay, they get to get their loans paid off, which is, of course, an incentive not to pay them while they're under consideration versus those suckers like me who actually paid my loans off by working hard. They're talking about maybe roughly eight million borrowers who are in default right now who could potentially benefit from this. All of this, Betsy, seems like it seems drastically unfair to people who actually

paid their bills and doesn't seem like we can afford it. But it seems like a political pitch that they feel will help them in advance of November. What do you think it's about? And do you think it's a good idea? Well, first of all, it's illegal for the president to just wipe away and forgive a bunch of student debt. We believe there's no basis in law to do that. Secondly, it's patently unfair. Two out of three Americans did not go to college and take out student loans to do so. Not to mention the fact that people like you have faithfully paid on student loans and have done so and paid them off, or the veterans that have served our country and earned their tuition as a result. To just say we're going to wipe away a bunch of student debt is patently unfair for all of those. It's unwise. It is a wrongheaded policy. And I, you know,

you can see the influence that Elizabeth Warren has had, is having in this administration with all of her folks that have invaded the student loan portfolio and the federal student aid infrastructure and are working on every way possible to try to wipe away and forgive student loans, student debt, based on whatever they can find to try to do it with. But it's wrong because it is not fair to all of those who are ultimately going to have to foot the bill to do this. And I have said many times that Congress really needs to get a grip on this and step back and reassess the whole process of student lending, which they took in inside the federal government. The Democrats did as part of Obamacare, ostensibly to pay for Obamacare. And now we have a loan portfolio that is bleeding debt and all of these promises being made to students, most of whom it is actually a reverse Robin Hood approach, paying off the loans of high income earners at the expense of those who have not taken out loans or who don't have the ability

to pay. I think of the trucker who said, I could go to college and take out a bunch of debt, but I'm worried about my ability to pay it. And I don't want to not pay my debts. And so he doesn't do it. And now he's got to pay for the debt of this couple making $250,000. It's BS. All right, we got one minute left. And I got to get to this story. You mentioned Elizabeth Warren. Some of the stories in here about your experiences on Capitol Hill are amazing. And one of them is with Bernie Sanders. And can you please leave us on a laugh with what you noticed when you went into Bernie Sanders Senate office? Well, my meeting with him was great, but my takeaway was the office was full of lots of different kinds of plaid, and it smelled like a lot of mothballs. I love the color. That's something you don't really get

from Bernie Sanders when you see him from a distance and all the memes and so on. Plaid and mothballs. It really brings the audience there. Look, you touch on everything in this book and I appreciate it. And I feel like there's just so much you've learned so much from your various roles in education. You're a wealth of information. Let me ask you this parting question. Whoever gets in there next time around, if it's a Republican as a president, would you be willing to serve again? I've been willing to do whatever it takes to advance opportunities for kids. And if that would mean to serve in some way, I would do that. Great. Good. I'm glad to hear it because we need

more people like you who are unafraid. And frankly, being independently wealthy is a plus in this situation where it's like they can throw their little arrows and so on. But you'll be just fine. You're doing what you believe is right for the country. Betsy DeVos, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much, Megan. It's been great to be with you. So Betsy DeVos was sexually harassed by Joe Biden. That's what we learned, among many other

things on today's show. Unbelievable. Think about it. I know we're laughing. Think about yourself in a wheelchair, unable to move, and having this guy come over, lean down, put his hands on your shoulders and put his forehead against yours, his sweaty forehead, breathing on you right in your face. I mean, come on. The poor woman. Betsy DeVos has been through a lot. She would have preferred the Elizabeth Warren treatment. Don't touch me. Walk the other way. One of the many things we can talk over with our friends from the Ruthless podcast who are coming back on tomorrow. Don't miss that. Download the show. In the meantime, The Megyn Kelly Show on Apple, Pandora, Spotify, and Stitcher. Go to youtube.com slash Megyn Kelly and hit subscribe so that you can watch us if you prefer. In the meantime, thanks for being with us and we'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.