The Megyn Kelly Show - Charlie Kirk's Incredibly Moving Memorial, the Power of Forgiveness, and Van Jones' Smear, with Michael Knowles | Ep. 1154

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Megyn Kelly opens the show discussing her experience with her kids at Charlie Kirk’s incredible memorial service, and how it united people and drew them closer to God. Then The Daily Wire's Michael Knowles, host of "The Michael Knowles Show," joins to discuss the faith-focused memorial, Erika Kirk’s incredible strength and forgiveness, the cultural shift to the right, the radical left’s response to the memorial event and remarks by Trump and Stephen Miller, their demand that the right call for unity despite the violence we're seeing done for leftist causes, and more. Then Megyn discusses gaslighting from the left, the corporate media’s role in fueling political violence, attempts by some in the media to make this moment about themselves, Matthew Dowd’s self-centered comments complaining about the fact that non one's talking about his MSNBC firing, Katie Couric bizarrely critiquing the network, Van Jones speaking out about his final private exchange with Charlie Kirk, his original false smear of Kirk claiming he was being racist, Megyn's own history with Van and why he's a coward about what he says publicly vs. privately, and more. Knowles- https://www.dailywire.com/ Birch Gold: Text MK to 989898 and get your free info kit on goldGrand Canyon University: https://GCU.eduKars4Kids: Call 1-877-kars4kids or visit https://kars4kids.org/MKByrna: Go to https://Byrna.com or your local Sportsman's Warehouse today.  Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey, everyone. I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. Back home today after attending Charlie Kirk's magnificent memorial service yesterday. An event too big for an NFL football stadium with some 200,000 people making their way to Arizona yesterday to honor Charlie's life and legacy. The nation's top political leaders, I mean, it was incredible. It was like a state funeral from President Trump to Vice President J.D. Van, Secretary of State Mark Rubeo, Secretary of War, Pete Heggseth, the DNI, Tulsi Gabbard, Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy. You had Stephen Miller, Sergio Gore, Susie Wiles, Chief of Staff. Like, Elon Musk was in attendance. He was steps away from me on the floor. Everybody.

I mean, just like it was incredible. It was incredible. That's how much of a mark Charlie made, not just on our country, but on our government in particular, at age 31. Ask yourself what you were doing at age 31. When I was 31, I hadn't even gotten into television yet. I was still practicing law. I mean, it's amazing to me the amount that he accomplished in his 31 years, really from 18 to 31. Charlie worked nonstop, and it was a labor of love. And he, He wasn't trying to get to know these people because he wanted access to power and to feel special. He was doing it because it was his life's calling. And he really, truly cared about changing this country for the better.

I mean, I think you could accurately say about saving this country. That's why it was his life's work that brought him into the circles of power. And it was great to hear some of the stories of people who, when he was starting turning point and he needed that first 50,000 bucks to get things going. how he went to this one potential donor and pitched her and she said, come back when you have the first half. And two days later, he called. He had found it. He's 18. I mean, truly, if somebody, and Charlie didn't have any connections, he didn't come from a wealthy family. If somebody said to you at 18, see if you can go get, go raise $50,000 in two days. Could you have done it?

I couldn't have done it. We were just like Charlie. We didn't have any, like, like, connections to anybody in power. We didn't even know any like doctors or lawyers, really. Um, never mind, politicians or people who actually were at the seat of government. So Charlie somehow managed to find these names that had potentially big pockets and one by one called, I mean, that was one of the main takeaways I had. All these people who had had been contacted by an by an unafraid Charlie. He was not afraid about reaching out even when he was young to people he didn't know to try to ask for help building his mission. And that was part of the same spirit he used in reaching across the aisle to speak to people he disagreed with or who disagreed

with him as part of his mission too. I mean, it's very clear that Charlie's death is far bigger than politics. His funeral is going to be remembered as, I mean, one of the most impactful spiritual events in American history. You won't be surprised to learn the left wasn't feeling it. I mean, I'll just tell you something like when I walked in, the moment, I was overwhelmed. I walked in the stadium, and I brought my two oldest children with me. They're almost 16 and 14, my oldest son and my daughter. And we walk into the stadium, and there were so many people in the stands. Everyone was dressed in red, white, and blue. It was so heartening. And that's exactly what Charlie would have wanted. That was a great call

by his team. And all these people who had watched the show or watch Charlie on this show or watch me on Charlie's show who, you know, knew me or whatever, the love that was out poured just over me and my children was as we walked in. I couldn't believe it. I was so moved by it. People yell, I love you. And I yelled, and I yelled back, I love you. And I meant that. And I think we were all having a shared moment of grieving. You know, it wasn't, that wasn't about the Megan Kelly show. That was about, I think, our relationship with Charlie, our coverage of Charlie. People feel grateful for someone who's not, frankly, just one of the assholes out there dumping all over him and totally willfully misunderstanding his legacy. And we were seated for the proceedings. And every time I

looked at the crowd, and I saw the 70,000 people inside that building. And then there was an overflow with tens of thousands more. That's what made me get near tears. Like just seeing the outpouring of people. like the regular folks. And I sent out a tweet about this, but it was like, people who were, like, I saw one one with a severe limp, another guy who had a cane, elderly people, tons of young people, of course, but like really elderly people. It was, you know, in the 90s yesterday in Arizona, people who were super overweight. Didn't matter.

Old, young, whatever. They all flocked pregnant women, very pregnant. They all flocked to this event. They waited in line since. two or three in the morning some of them. They did not matter. They did not care about their own comfort or how, I mean, I complain about, oh, wow, is it a long walk?

How long am I have to stand? Imagine if you're carrying around an extra 100 pounds. I was so impressed by those people. They knew they'd be physically uncomfortable. They didn't care. They wanted to go there to honor him to pay homage to his life, to mourn his death, to be with their fellow Americans in shared. grief and worship. We did that too yesterday. It was beautiful. It was much more than a memorial.

It was a gathering of faith and reconnection with God and each other. And this was not about the radical left. This was about us. This is about team sanity. People of faith who believe in a loving God who don't have it figured out why he took Charlie from us. But understand there's a higher purpose that we're just too moral to fully understand right now. People who looked at Erica Kirk and felt like they wanted to drop to their knees, we were so floored by her strength in what she did. Not the haters and what they said online.

Forget them. This isn't about them. This is about those of us who were there and watched it on TV and saw clips because they cared enough to take time out of their busy day and watch them and felt that stirring inside that reminded us, this life here is about something greater than us.

It's about something greater than us. Joining me now for reaction is Michael Knowles. He's hosted the Michael Knowles show on The Daily Wire. Michael's in Minnesota right now, Minnesota, where he will be speaking at a college campus event as part of Turning Points American Comeback Tour continuing even after Charlie's passing. And I want to also tell you that Michael will be joining me for the Megan Kelly Live, our fall tour. And you can find him and his Daily Wire pals, Ben Shapiro and Andrew Claven in Jacksonville, Florida with yours truly on November 6th. We really hope that you will come. That's

Megan Kelly.com to find out more info and get tickets, okay, for all 10 of the dates are on there. But check it out at Megan Kelly.com. When inflation jumps, when you hear the national debt is over $37 trillion. Do you ever think maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold? Well, you'd be right. Whether as a hedge against inflation, peace of mind during global instability, or just for sensible diversification, Birch Gold Group believes every American should own a physical gold. And so they created something special until September 30th.

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Text MK to the number 9-8-9-8-98 to claim your eligibility and get your free info kit. Michael, great to have you. So you went to the memorial yesterday, yes? Yes, it was you, me, and a few hundred thousand of our closest friends. And Charlie's touches and his many admirers. And I'm still processing it. As you say, Megan, I mean, Erica Kirk's speech was one of the most powerful speakers. speeches I've ever heard in my life. I'm sure we'll get to that. But even on the point of the people

who came from all over the place, who were uncomfortable, who sacrificed to make it there, a friend of mine texts me as I'm on the plane flying into Phoenix. And he said, hey, are you in Phoenix for the memorial? And I said, oh, I am. Did you come into town? This is 9 p.m. the night before. He says, yeah, I'm at the stadium. So what do you mean you're at the stadium? He said, I'm at the stadium. He said, there were many people at the stadium already. I will get in. I have to be there. This is not someone who's just constantly consuming political news. This is not a college kid who was following Charlie's tour around all that closely. This is a grown man who said, I have to be at this memorial. I have to honor Charlie Kirk.

I will camp out overnight. He said, Michael, if something's wrong with your hotel, you can come sleep in my car. But we are getting in. And I think that was the spirit all over the country. And honestly, it was reflective of the way Charlie's fans and friends have behaved over the past 11, 12 days. Peacefully, with a connection to God, they've been holding vigils, they've had the candles up, you know, the iPhone lights. They've been singing patriotic songs. They've been singing religious songs. It's been absolutely beautiful the way the right has handled itself in the wake of this massive tragedy. And that was on full display yesterday.

I mean, the first half of the memorial was all people who knew Charlie very well talking about their memories of him. The second half was not even half, like basically two-thirds versus one-third that was administration officials talking about their experiences with Charlie. And then things got more political, of course. But to read the write-ups in the paper today, you would think it was just Trump out there saying and Trump was hysterical, as he always is. But you would, they ignore all of the beautiful.

heartfelt tributes by his staff, his friends, his donors, you know, all of them, his pastor, his spiritual advisors. No, it's like that didn't happen. It all boils down to like one aside by Trump. And they just simply don't get it, I think, is the real point. You know, there were all of these political speeches, yes, in the context of an event talking about eternity. Charlie understood that as well as anybody. Charlie was constantly talking about God. constantly talking about our immortal souls, our eternal purpose. But he recognized also that we are the political animal. We're social creatures.

And so faith has to look like something. We have to do something here in this world. And our faith produces works. And our face impels us to action. And it leads us to care even for our enemies, love for our enemies, and to create a society that is conducive to the common good. You cannot separate the political from the religious.

You can't even, in this mortal life, separate the religious from the political. And so I thought that all of the administration officials did a magnificent job of this. People are attacking President Trump because he gets up there and he says, Charlie Kirk loved his enemies. He really cared for them and he wished the best for them. And I don't. This is where Charlie and I disagreed. I hate my enemies and I don't wish what's best for them.

And people are knocking him for this. They're saying this was an anti-gospel message. This was anti-Christian. They just weren't listening. Maybe they don't know how to speak New Yorker. Maybe they don't have any sense of humor. Chesterton said, The angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly.

These people cannot. What Trump was saying was an affirmation of the gospel message. He was saying Charlie did the right thing. He said, Charlie's looking down. He's angry at me right now. He said, you're saying, I'm a sinner here. Yes. He said, maybe Erica can talk to me.

She can teach me how to be a better person. He was expressing that. human desire in this fallen world to punish our enemies, not to will the best for them. But he said, no, no, the right thing to do is to love your enemies. Let me play it for the audience, Michael. Then you take it on the back. Here it is. He did not hate his opponents.

He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. but now Erica can talk to me and the whole group

and maybe they can convince me that that's not right but I can't stand my opponent Charlie's angry looking down he's angry I mean now it was hysterical

it's hysterical and it's an expression actually of humility right he's saying Charlie's looking down at me in other words Charlie's doing the right thing the thing that brings him

closer to God but me it's hard for me to get past this. I feel this anger here, but that's the right thing that we are to do. We have to love our enemies. And loving our enemies is not some happy, clappy talk. It's not some little sentiment. Loving anyone means to will the good of that person. And so to say that we forgive those who trespass against us, as our Lord teaches us to do, even people who commit the worst sins against us, to try to emulate Christ on the cross who says, Father, forgive them, they

know not what they do. To forgive them is to say, look, vengeance belongs to the Lord and he will repay and their foot shall slide in due time. It is not to say that the civil authority is not going to exact justice. And in fact, to love your enemies means that you do have to punish criminals for the protection of society, but also for their own good. I mean, philosophers have understood this going back at least to Plato. There is no contradiction between these things. But it's to say that we're not going to bear personal enmity and grudges. We're not going to kill people in a vigilante way as the left has been doing. We're not going to burn the country down.

We're going to sublimate this. We're going to kiss it up to God. We're going to thank God for the blessings he gives us, which we don't deserve. And we are going to try to bring justice because that will be good for everyone. It's a spirit of charity that is the most important of the theological virtues. And you heard that beautifully from Erica, you heard it beautifully from everyone else. And when Trump says, I don't feel this way, but maybe I'll try to do it, it's that same humility years ago when he said, he was asked if he was going to have a beer on St. Patty's Day. He says, no, I don't drink. It's the only good thing you can say about me. Imagine if I drank, I'd be the worst. It's an expression to say, Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner, and maybe we can look for a better way. Absolutely right. I loved it. I thought it was very funny because, frankly, there'd been so much uplifting talk that some of us who are more of the Trump mindset needed to hear somebody say what we're thinking, you know, which is I'm enraged and actually no quarter, none whatsoever for my enemies. I personally am much more in that place, which is more of a political place, probably, than a biblical place. I don't know. I looked at Erica Kirk and she was... But there's no contradiction, Megan.

Yes. No, I like what you're saying. And Ali Beth Stuckey said the same. Yes. I mean, you know, when Erica Kirk says, I forgive him, which was so absolutely arresting, even thinking of it again, I'm a tough guy and I don't think men should cry in public all that often. It really, grown men, I don't think there was a dry eye in the house. Every man. Every man was crying. It was really incredibly moving. Go ahead. That is true. That is true, and it's a beautiful statement. And also, if the suspect is convicted, the state of Utah will inject him with me. poison until he's dead. There's no contradiction there. We can personally forgive people, and we can also will the best for these people, up to and including capital punishment, by the way. I'm reminded of the line of Dr. Johnson, dependent upon it, sir, when a man knows that he used to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully. It was a recognition more broadly,

Megan, I think, that with all of these political leaders there, that we need a political order that is conducive to the common good and that acknowledges God and that acknowledges the difference between right and wrong and that really believes in something because if you don't like this religious kind of country

wait until you live in an irreligious country I promise you it's a lot worse 100%. And you mentioned the Erica Kirk moment where first of all some people were critical of the fact that she and others walked out and they had the pyrotechnics going

and I completely reject that because you have to understand turning point events. This was an homage to Charlie. He loved that stuff. And we all love that stuff when we go to a turning point event. You walk out and they've got the pirate techniques and they've got the smoke going, the dry ice smoke.

And it's just so fun. And it makes the event feel big and celebratory. And that's what they wanted to do to make this event feel big and celebratory. Not a maudlin, sad, tears crying, you know, good God, this terrible assassin type event. They wanted it to be a celebration of life. you know, which is not unusual. It's just they did it Charlie Kirk style and Turning Point style. So to me, it made perfect sense that they did use the pyrotechnics. And no one, no sane person was thinking that meant Erica was celebrating Charlie's death. I mean, it's just like only the most

cynical bastards would even suggest that. But of course, you know, we're dealing with these leftists. So she comes out and she talks about Charlie's message and Charlie's message and Charlie's Charlie, like, what he wanted to do. And I think does, I'm trying to find out for my team. Is Sot 2, it came chronologically before Sot 1, right? Because I want to play these in sequential order. I think it did. Let's play Sot 2.

Charlie passionately wanted to reach and save the lost boys of the West. The young men who feel like they have no direction, no purpose, no faith, and no reason to live. The men wasting their lives on distractions, and the men consumed with resentment, anger, and hate. Charlie wanted to help them. He wanted them to have a home with Turning Point USA. And when he went on to campus, he was looking to show them a better path and a better life that was right there for the taken. He wanted to show them that.

my husband charlie he wanted to save young men just like the one who took his life okay so first of all that was such an astute observation and it's exactly right michael i mean he Charlie was there on these campuses in large part to save people like Tyler Robinson,

his killer, people who had gotten brainwashed into magical far-left thinking about issues like gender and so on. And to tell them that there could be, that Jesus envisioned something better for them, that their lives could be better, that they did not have to go in this downward spiral into which whatever online obsession throws you or a society that doesn't value young white boys can throw you or a university setting for too many semesters in a row can throw you. I don't know what happened to Tyler Robinson

because you're saying precious little but obviously somehow he got put in the left wing whirlwind and before you knew it his mind had been corrupted and that's what Charlie was doing there at great danger to himself. So before I get to the forgiveness act, Let's talk about that. Yes.

You know, one thing that Charlie excelled at, he excelled at many, many things, but one thing he excelled at was throwing issues into stark relief. Charlie's opponents would always try to muddy up the waters. You're seeing this now after a spate of left-wing violence that's going on for many years now, many, many years, but certainly we can recall the BLM riots, which were encouraged by the left-wing authorities and which killed dozens of people and burned a lot of the country down all the way up through the murder of Christian children. the Covenant School here in Minneapolis, all the way up to the assassination of Charlie Kirk

from left-wing militants, and I'm leaving out a lot of other people, too. They try to say, well, it's both sides and it's unclear and there's good and better. No, no, this is clear as day. What the left has done in promoting violence, in justifying violence, in celebrating the assassination of Charlie Kirk, and in committing the violence, is totally the opposite of what Charlie Kirk did, which is that he went to these campuses to try to help people who openly hated him and to try to reach out and to exemplify civil dialogue and to try to help and establish a political order that would allow all of us to flourish. They preached evil and hatred and absurdity.

Charlie spoke about reason and truth and goodness, and they killed him for it. This is as stark relief as you can possibly imagine. And it's very instructive now. Charlie continues to teach these people even after he died, even through his death. His death as if to say there is a better way. And his widow, with unbelievable, superhuman courage, had the ability to get up there with great poise and elegance and to say that. And in the moment to be able to channel how Charlie would have viewed the young man who killed him, how Charlie would have seen him and what Charlie would have done had they had a,

face-to-face chat at one of these rope lines that you could get on at his events. I think she's spot on. He absolutely would have been respectful to him, would have heard him out. He would have challenged his ideas in a way that was kind and loving and forgiving and open. And maybe he could have helped him, you know, if that guy had only gotten online instead of gotten on a rooftop, his life could have been saved. Instead, he ended it with the bullet that he used to end Charlie's. And then, Erica Kirk did the thing that stunned the world. I mean, if you were a Christian, you weren't totally stunned because this is what we are taught to do. It's just incredibly hard. And I think most Christians eventually get to this piece of grief, but some sooner than others. And Erica is probably the most

observant, faithful Christian I've known, or at least one of them. And she got there sooner than the rest of us, even though her pain is more acute than the rest of ours. And here is what she did, Sot 1. My husband, Charlie, he wanted to save young men, just like the one who took his life. That young man. That young man, on the cross, our Savior said, Father, forgive them, for they not know what they do. that man

that young man I forgive him I forgive him the amount of strength that took for Charlie's extremely loving widow to stand up there 11 days after he was assassinated in front of our eyes and forgive his killer

is superhuman Michael it felt like a gut punch in the room I'm with you I've seen the clip now multiple times I was there obviously when she said it and it it felt like a gut punch like a good gut punch like a salutary gut punch but a gut punch every time you hear it It boggles the mind that one could have that reaction, that one could have that kind of strength and charity, and consider the reaction of the crowd, the reaction of the crowd, which immediately gets on its feet, tears in their eyes, immediately starts applauding.

It shows you that contrast. For starters, it shows you the power of Christian forgiveness. It shows you that our Lord, who is God, who is reasoned himself, so we shouldn't be surprised by this. Our Lord is right when he tells you to forgive your enemies, to forgive those who trespass against you as you ask forgiveness from your father. And it shows you also the political power of that kind of forgiveness. And if I were a young man on a university campus right now, trying to figure out what I think about, the world. One of the most persuasive campus speakers, probably the most persuasive campus speaker was just assassinated in an attempt to silence him. Now we're trying to think which side do I want to be on, which way of life is going to be most conducive to my happiness. And I see one side shrieking and screaming and calling for violence, nastiness, mutilating themselves, degrading themselves. And then I see Erica Kirk, on the other hand, and 100,000 people in just one of the stadiums that had this memorial, 100,000 people on their feet applauding, cheering that kind of forgiveness and that kind of charity. It would take a heart of stone not to be moved to that side. And not just that

moment, which was extraordinary enough, but the way she talked, for example, about their marriage, Michael, I felt like every person in America is watching her thinking, those two were so lucky. You know, she talked about how she was such a supportive wife. She would support Charlie and she would make the home someplace warm and welcoming for him when he came home rather than guilting him for being away too long on work trips. You know, her mission was to make him feel as welcome and warm as possible when he got back home and him leaving her the love notes, she said, which was their secret weapon between the two of them in a good way, where he would write her the highlight of his week or the low light of his week

and always end it with, how can I serve you better as your husband? You know, what can I do to make you happier and more satisfied? You know, there's just this picture of this giving, loving, mutually supportive couple. Like, that is a Christian marriage. That didn't surprise me at all. But I think a lot of people looking in, who have had this caricature of Charlie, got a real window there into what kind of a man he really was and what kind of a life he was really leading.

Yes, without question. You know, for his friends, many, many friends he had and his many, many admirers, I think we're all somewhat surprised by the way the media are trying to lie about him. We should never be surprised by the perfidy of the liberal media, but we are because the picture that they've painted that this guy were somehow a hater or this guy were nasty or wished ill upon people is so utterly foreign to the man in private, in public. for anyone who actually would watch or listen to him, it's just totally divorced from reality. And what she is describing illustrates this complimentary view of how we should all get along,

this view with real integrity. Because what she said was Charlie and I fit together. We complimented one another. He did this and I did that. And the that supported this and the this supported that and we grew together and we were like one flesh, which is what Christian marriage is. And I think the modern view, which stems from the error

that says that men and women are the same, views husbands and wives in competition with each other. The husbands and wives is basically doing the same thing, serving the same purpose. They're indiscernible. And so that view breeds resentment. You view your spouse as a rival

rather than as your helper, as your other half. And it's the same kind of complementarity that you see with the way that they spoke about justice and forgiveness yesterday. These things are not opposed, and in fact, one without the other will lead to the detriment of both. You know, there's a lot of posts that went viral after the memorial service, but this one bears mentioning. It's by someone named Sana Ebrahemi. And per this person's bio, they are a PhD candidate.

who's passionate about politics. Sounds like a man, I mean a woman, Sana, but I don't know. Okay, it says, I grew up, yeah, it's a woman. I grew up as a Muslim in a Muslim country. I don't know enough about Christianity to say if I, if what I witnessed is rooted in faith or culture. But what struck me the most was how even though death is heavy, and this was by nature a sad occasion,

the entire event carried a celebratory spirit that honored life. That contrast hit me deeply. In Islam, even though we believe that good people, people go to heaven, the relationship with God is taught through fear. I cannot imagine myself standing on a stage, sending love to those who cheered your husband's murder, or inviting others to spread God's love in response, because, as she said, quote, we do not respond to hate with hate. That is powerful beyond words. Again, I am ignorant when it comes to Christianity, but if this is what it truly embodies, then I am envious of those who get to experience that

feeling. I mean, it's extraordinary, but that word envy is the right one to think of anybody in the world looking at Erica Kirk on the day she said her final goodbye to her husband and feeling envy. But having been there, we get it, right? The people who watched it on TV, get it. That was an astute observation from this person. When you said it was a PhD candidate obsessed with politics, I said, we're about to hear the worst thing of the morning. But no, that was very astute. And the distinction between Christianity and Islam, or really Christianity and any other religious tradition, is clear too. In the case of Islam, Pope Benedict the 16th addressed this in the Regensburg Address, in which he was citing medieval Islamic scholars, notably Ibn Hazam.

And he pointed out there's a big difference between the God of Islam and the God of Christianity in that the God of Christianity is identified with the Lagos, the divine logic of the universe. He makes sense. The God of Islam is totally... totally transcendent, volunteerist, not necessarily connected with logic, not necessarily reasonable, such that if he ordered his followers to worship idols, they would be compelled and impelled to do so. That's a big difference because those who are Christian have a deep faith that God is reasonable, that it all makes sense, that God turns even evil things to good. He's on our side. He's always on our side.

side. And when we have questions in the face of the greatest problem that people have with God, namely Theodicy, why bad things happen to good people, we are reminded of what God said to Joe, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? We believe that God has prepared something beautiful for us. And so we mourn. It's right to mourn. Jesus wept at the tomb of his friend Lazarus moments before he raised Lazarus from the dead, but he wept because death is bad. Death was not part of the original plan. Death enters the world because sin enters the world because human beings abuse our free will. But God, being all-knowing and all-powerful and all-loving, turns even evil things to good,

which takes away the sting of death because we believe in the fullness of the gospel that our Lord has resurrected and that Christ has conquered death on the cross and even death loses its power over us. the radical left felt differently about the day they weren't moved you'll be shocked to hear the people who would celebrate charlie's death also found no reason to repent having gotten to know his friends his family his wife his colleagues nothing nothing could move them and so they decided to zero in on that one comment by trump which was funny and as you say self-deprecating and on Stephen Miller's speech,

which I'm just going to be honest, was one of my favorite speeches. I loved it. Because, right, I told him I loved it. My anger is still strong, and it was one of those shoot-it-in-my-vane's moment, moments. I wanted to hear him say, like, we're going to go after our enemies.

Like, there's a reason they killed Charlie, you know? And it was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So we cut a little bit of this, so-called rage fest. Rage fest is how the Huffington Post described Charlie's Memorial. The whole thing. Okay, it was not a rage fest. The opposite. It was a love fest.

But some of us needed the Stephen Miller moment, and here's part of it. We will defeat the dark. We will prevail over the forces of wickedness and evil. They cannot imagine what they have. have awakened. They cannot conceive of the army that they have arisen in all of us, because we stand for what is good, what is virtuous, what is noble. And to those trying to incite violence against us, those trying to foment hatred against us, what do you have? You have nothing. You are nothing. You are wickedness, you are jealousy, you are envy, you

You are hatred. You are nothing. You can build nothing. You can produce nothing. You can create nothing. We are the ones who build. We are the ones who create. We are the ones who lift up humanity.

You thought you could kill Charlie Kirk. You have made him immortal. You have immortalized Charlie Kirk. And now millions will carry on his legacy. All right, Michael Knowles, I don't take Valium, but I imagine if I took Valium, that's how I would feel. Like, okay, I'm settling. I feel better. I don't know, like my, somehow I went from feeling like, angst to feeling like, yes, everything's going to be okay, because he gets it. We needed him, too. The person I was sitting next to during Stephen's speech, turns to me, and he's not Jewish, this person, but he said, wow, Michael, the Jews really do.

the Old Testament well. They really know what they're doing. This is bringing some real power and force here. And I was joking with some friends that I was sitting with. I said, look, I'm very traditional. Someday when my time comes, I want it to be very trad, no speeches, no eulogy, all the rest of it. I said, with one exception. I told this to Stephen Miller. I said, Stephen, you can speak at my, I want that speech in my funeral. Just do the same speech. Right, right, the same speech, no matter what. Yes, I don't care. I could go. I could go. age 105 of old age or something. But what Stephen was expressing there, I think stirred a lot of people's hearts. I think it spoke to a lot of what we were yearning for. And by the way,

even that was a deeply Christian message. We build, they destroy. That has been true since the terms left and right entered into politics during the French Revolution. When the leftists sat on the left side of the National Assembly, and the Christians and the people who wanted to maintain order sat on the right side. The left was tearing things down, killing people, chopping off heads, burning buildings, and the right was trying to preserve civilization. And this has a Christian resonance, too, because evil does not have an existence in itself. There are plenty of religious systems that say that there's evil and there's good, and it's this kind of dualist system where they're duking it out. That's what manichaeism is. That's what all number of heresies are.

That's not what Christianity says. Christianity says there is good. There is good. Good is so real that good is even incarnate and good is absolute. And evil has no existence of itself. Evil is merely a privation of the good. Evil is merely known by its distance away from God. And so we don't need to fear evil as some rival God that could overtake us.

No, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness never overtakes it. And that is what Stephen's saying. He says, what we are doing is we're building, we're constructing, we're creating something that is positive, that has an existence in itself. And if they want to tear it down and knock it down, let them try their very best, pay them no heed, we're going to keep moving forward. A beautiful message, a Christian message, and a message I think we all know Charlie would hardly agree with.

The other thing that's infuriating about, you know, calling it a rage fest, and that's just one example, there's plenty of lefty media coverage. like, here's just one liberal podcast host, David Packman. The Charlie Kirk funeral is absolutely disgusting, riddled with speeches that only dial up the temperature. Stephen Miller's was particularly vile. A lot of posts like that from the left. But what's particularly annoying about that reaction is, does anyone have any idea what

they're doing, Stephen Miller, what they've done to Stephen Miller in Trump 1.0 and the interim and then Trump 2.0? that poor guy has been harassed at every turn. In all aspects of his life, they labeled him a white supremacist, and they are literally comparing him to Joseph Goebbels again all over the internet today. They, I'm sorry, they want to get him killed. The way they gin up hatred around him, you would behave no differently if you had a goal of having somebody take Stephen Miller out.

And Trump, they're taking umbrage with Trump saying, I hate my enemies, I hate him. You know, like, why wouldn't he? They literally tried to put him in prison for the rest of his life. They tried to bankrupt him. And then two people who are very influenced by their messages tried to kill him. But they want Trump to be Erica Kirk. They want Stephen Miller to be Erica Kirk.

Just go out there with a forgiving message. And would they change their messages about those two if they had that moment on stage? Hell, no. Certainly not. You mentioned this liberal streamer, David Pacman. I seem to recall some time ago he mocked Christian children for being massacred. So they need to pray more or something like that. You know, this is, and it's not just him. Many people have had this kind of a response. And it's vile. It has more than a whiff of the demonic to it. But they, even in the midst of all of this political violence, they continue to call for it. As you point out, Megan, the two people who tried to murder Trump, one who got quite close, were inspired by the Democrat rhetoric. You don't need to look too closely into it. Joe Biden started his presidential campaign by saying that Donald Trump poses an existential threat to the country. When you use a term like that existential threat, you are clearly justifying violence because the violence would be in self-defense. You saw plenty of people celebrating the murder

of Charlie Kirk. You saw plenty of people excusing it. You've seen violence from the left over the course of many years at this point. And you're seeing now, even in California, Gavin Newsom is trying, as a matter of law, though it will fail, to make ICE agents take their masks down. They have masks on so that they're not doxed and harassed by the illegal alien Latin American cartels and the radical leftists. I'm not sure which is more dangerous at this point. But Newsom is doing that. He says, what are you afraid of? We know the obvious answer. They're afraid that these people are going to kill them, and they have very good reason to be afraid of that. And the only reason that Gavin Newsom is pushing for this law is to intimidate them,

to threaten them, and to increase the chances that they're murdered. So the left has manifestly learned no lesson on political violence, still seeks the targeting of its political opponents. And we have to accept that fact and respond accordingly by reinstituting some order to the public square, punishing people where their threats and their incitement are indeed criminal, taking these people and ostracizing them from polite society. They're very existing. in polite society undermines the free marketplace of ideas. They need to go live private lives somewhere else where they are not, where they are not creating this kind of a danger and disrupting American liberty. They've shown us who they are repeatedly. And their reaction to the

Kirk Memorial is the latest reaffirmation of that. So what is your mindset right now? Because a lot of the folks I talked to behind stage yesterday were angry like we are about the left and what's been done here. What's been done to Charlie 11 days ago, 12 days ago, and what's been done in the wake of his death too. And felt that it's just time to go scorched earth, you know, like we can't deal with these people at all. You know, and I've been saying that in this show, full disclosure. And others felt feeling more connected with God and Christian faith and so on. We're feeling like, let's try to extend the olive branch. Let's try. We've got a country to save.

and that means we're going to have to work with the left and, you know, the reasonable left and not be scorched earth. And I just want to say one thing about it. One of the reasons why I'm in the former camp and just think it's time for scorched earth. I just, I'm, and I've always been the more moderate one, Michael. I really have been, like, more moderate. I haven't not been like a hard, right conservative. But I'm just, they've driven me here.

Like, they have not shown the ability or willingness to work with us. And now our people are getting killed, like literally getting killed, almost assassinated in Trump's case, actually assassinated in Charlie's. And I'm just done. I'm done. Is that they won't take responsibility for what happened. They won't admit that Charlie's killer was of the left. And they won't admit that the political violence we've been seeing in this country is overwhelmingly from the left. Maybe you could find one or two incidents out of the past 20 that you could blame on a righty. nothing's coming to mind, but okay, I'm sure there's one or two. But the vast majority is coming from them, and they won't acknowledge it, which is why I'm feeling radicalized.

But where are you? Not only will they not acknowledge it, they'll lie about it. You had that Democrat congressman Seth Moulton come out immediately after Charlie's death and lie on television and say that three quarters of political violence in America comes from the right, only 4% comes from the left. When I heard this, I thought, well, that doesn't sound right to me, But I don't know. I haven't looked at the crime statistics.

Let me see where he gets those numbers from. And I look, and there are a couple of studies that suggest as much. And then I said, hold on, let me look at the actual incidents of violence. And I just considered the ones that were closer to me. The shooting in Nashville, the trans ideologue who shot up a school of Christian children, who confessed her ideological motivations and who began the killing by shooting through stained glass an image of Adam and Eve, rather charged imagery. And I looked at that, and then I saw that the authorities did not consider that to be ideologically

motivated. So it was not considered a trans ideologue targets little Christian children for belief. That's not far left violence. Then that same year, I was actually involved in one of these incidents. I was giving a talk. It was a debate on transgenderism at the University of Pittsburgh. And two anarchists showed up a couple, and they burned me an effigy on the street. and all these sorts of things, but then they threw an explosive at the building as I walked on stage

and seriously injured a female police officer. One of them is in federal prison right now for this. That incident is not classified as left-wing violence. These were card-carrying anarchists, a member of an Antifa network, actual terrorists who were stopped multiple times going through TSA with explosive material on them. That doesn't count. And I realized how the left, people like Seth Moulton, arrive at that statistic. They don't count the left-wing violence. So it turns out leftists don't commit political violence so long as you don't count any of the violence that the leftists commit. So that number is ridiculous. And then you see the celebrations and the excuses and the justifications and all the rest of it. And I understand the urge to go scorched earth.

I just think it's kind of a false dichotomy. I don't think that the distinction is between going scorched earth and bringing the bad to bear versus, you know, Christian piety. There's nothing about Christianity that tells us to be wimps. There's nothing about Christian piety. There's nothing about Christian piety that says that we ought to let the cruel rape the innocent. That is that has nothing to do with Christianity. It's a total error and misunderstanding. What I think is required right now is that we, in charity, with love for our enemies, willing their good, have to reestablish order because order and liberty are not at odds. We're talking about these apparent contradictions that are not really contradictions. Liberty requires order. You cannot be free if you're

undisciplined. You cannot be free if you're totally ignorant. This is why we don't let toddlers vote. Okay, we know this philosophically, but we also know it intuitively. You can't have a marketplace of ideas if people keep coming in and shooting up the marketplace. Marketplaces require order and regulations, the common media of exchange, in all manner of civilization. So that's what we have to insist upon. Even going back, I was reminded of Plato's Gorgias, which is a treatise on how to deal with criminals. And one of the interlocutor says to Socrates, well, it's better for criminals if you let them off the hook. You don't prosecute them. And Socrates says, no, no, no, to the contrary, it's much worse for

criminals. You need to rehabilitate criminals. If you allow them to continue to do all these terrible things, they'll be distorting their own souls and it will lead to eternal consequences for them. What you have to do, not only to protect the innocent, but even to help the guilty, is you need to correct them. And we need to be able to have a society that advances the common good. That's the whole point of a state. And in order to advance the common good good, you have to punish the bad stuff and you have to promote the good stuff. So that's really what we have to do here, Megan. My take is, I guess this might be called scorched earth by some people. I don't consider it that way. I think it's kind of just moderate, normal state craft.

But the people who threaten the innocent, the people who incite violence, the people who undermine the public square. They need to be punished for it. In some cases by the government when they break the law, in other cases by their corporations. When people were celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, it was absolutely right for these companies to fire them. Major corporations, Microsoft, NASDAQ, many, many others, made public statements about this, that we've let these people go. They have to be let go. They have to be fired and punished because you cannot expect an employee to walk into their cubicle knowing that the person next to them is actively seeking their death. You can't expect someone to go to a hospital if he thinks half the nurses want to kill.

You can't expect someone to go to a restaurant if we think the waiters are going to poison our food. You must have order in order to sustain and expand liberty in the public square. That's what we have to do. If our enemies want to call that scorched earth, that's their problem. There will be order and there will be liberty and there will be a traditional American way of life. Do you expect any change from the left as a result of all this? I expect a change from the left when we make them change. I certainly expect that people respond to incentives for years.

now, we have let criminals off the hook and we have punished innocent people for doing good things. We've imprisoned pro-life grannies. We've targeted Christians for worshipping. That is completely flipped. It creates a very distorted culture. What we need to return to, and I trust the administration to do it, is to punish the bad guys, to disincentivize the bad behavior, to encourage the good behavior, and knowing just a little bit about human nature, I strongly suspect that will lead to the change that we all need to see. In the 40 seconds we have left, how are you feeling about tonight i mean it's it's got to be a little on on your mind what happened to charlie when he was at the last campus appearance it certainly is i i trust our security team uh and i know that

the t p usa is going to do a great job with this event and and here's what else i know we cannot back down it would be the greatest dishonor to charlie and his legacy and everything he stood forth that he ultimately gave his life for if we back down if we let these people these enemies of civilization win. So we're not going to do that. We're going to show up. And others of Charlie's friends are going to show up for the rest of this tour. They thought that they could shut him up. They thought that they could stop his movement. They can't even stop his speaking tour. Guess again. Michael Knowles, good luck tonight. Lots of love to you. Courageous man. We'll be right back. Grand Canyon University, a private Christian university in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona believes we are endowed by our creator

with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. G. C.C. believes in equal opportunity and that the American dream starts with purpose. By honoring your career calling, you can impact your family, friends, and your community. Change the world for good by putting others before yourself. Whether your pursuit involves a bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree, GCU's online on-campus and hybrid learning environments are designed to help you achieve your unique academic personal and professional goals. With over 340 academic programs, as of September, 2024, GCU meets you where you are and provides a path to help you fulfill your dreams. The pursuit to serve others is yours. Let it flourish. Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University,

private, Christian affordable. Visit gcuh.edu. We absolutely have to keep talking. It's more important now than ever. To cower, to hide, to go silent is not the answer and all I can tell you is there is no fucking way I am canceling one stop on this tour. Not one stop. I'm going. I'm going to stand on these stages and I'm going to say all the things that we say all the time on this show. We're going to make it safe for me. We're going to make it safe for my team and my guests and you. We're going coast to coast and do something really important, which is say what's true and what's real to honor him. I really now more than ever would love to see you all face to face. God, I would love to see you face to face. I need to see you face to face. I am doing this tour, and I would love for you to join me. Megan Kelly.com for the tickets.

There's a lot to go over, so I don't have a guess this hour. I just wanted to talk directly to you about a number of issues that are on my mind. this whole thing about like scorched earth versus reaching across the aisle maybe Michael's right and there's not really a dichotomy there like but I do kind of feel like look there are certain people that I can deal with on the left that I could potentially have on this program and we could have one of those kumbaya conversations as like a resetting of the tone that's a decision I could make as a host or I could continue pointing out the absolute insanity that's happening on the left, exposing them, and doubling down on my resolve to fight them. And I'm in the second category. I got to be honest, I'm nowhere near the first

category. It looks completely wrong to me. It's not to say that I don't still love my Democrat friends that I have. I have dear, dear Democrat friends, love them, and I don't hold them responsible for this. And I don't hold the normal left responsible for this. But that vast collection of people on the left, who we refer to as leftists, I do have serious issues with. and it's in large part because I do believe that their rhetoric is going to get more people killed. I'm sorry, but I do believe that. Like, this was an actual political assassination driven by this guy's ideas about who Charlie was. Where did he get those ideas?

It's still possible that he just literally only ever looked at a Charlie Kirk video online, and he got his ideas just from listening to Charlie. That's possible. But the overwhelming likelihood is he heard words like the ones he. engraved on his bullet casings, like fascist, used repeatedly about Charlie from virtually everyone in the left-wing media. That's where I'd place my bet if I actually had to put my own money on it. And even if that were not the case in this particular shooting, what are we going to do about all the others? I mean, what about Butler? Why haven't we heard more about that shooter?

Honestly, why was President Trump shot in the year? Why did Corey Campitori die? Why don't we know? You're going to tell me that they don't have this guy's emails and a treasure trove of him. why aren't we seeing it? Why can't we know in that case what led him to actually pull the trigger? And in the case of Charlie, we know a lot. And yet, we're looking at a media that's willfully blind to it. They refuse. I mean, even now we're getting the hedges on like, we're not sure about the motive. You've got to be really careful. We know. And it's one of the reasons why I can't deal with these. people. If they're going to run around saying, we don't know why Charlie was killed, and then immediately equivocating on right-wing versus left-wing violence, like it's a both-sides thing,

no, I can't deal with you. You're not proceeding in good faith. I cannot work with you. You do not deserve the benefit of my good doubt. No. So that's where I am. Like, I cannot deal with in particular leftist media. And I've got to be honest. I don't blame them in that, like, you know, they pulled the trigger. But I do think they created an environment of hate around Charlie, just like they did around Donald Trump.

Yes, you did. You know you did. And not just specifically around them with the name calling and just talking about how divisive they are and fascists and not. and all of that, not just that, but the way you talk about the issues, for example, the ones that were important to Charlie in the culture war, also stirs up hatred. Why can't you just be honest that it is impossible for a man to become a woman? Why can't you just say that it is a scientific

fact? You know it. You're just too chicken shit to say it. You're, you're, you're, you're, At best, you're all Malcolm Gladwells who know the truth but willingly lie. None of you believes that you can change your biological sex, and gender is an obvious lie. Gender's a lie. There's only biological sex. Two sexes, male and female, period. The fact that you not only will not say that, but call everybody who does say that a bigot and try to ostracize them, is hashtag part of the problem.

That's how you otherize people like Charlie. That's how you get into the head of these psychopaths with he's a terrible man. He's full of hate. Some hate can't be negotiated out. That's what the shooter wrote in this note to his boyfriend, the trans furry. This is totally normal. We're not supposed to condemn any of that. We're literally supposed to look at like middle school, high school, college kids declaring

themselves furries, which is a second. sexual fetish and say it's fine. It's totally cool. Don't you wear those outfits to school? No problem. I'd love to participate in your sexual fetish. Sure, get off with me sitting right across view. No problems with that whatsoever. I mean, it's like, okay, so they won't tell the truth. They won't tell the truth about the trans issue. They will not tell the truth about the race issue. Another thing Charlie was very honest about, and which is being used against him now to say that he was a racist. We'll get to Van Jones in a minute.

So I look at the media and I have, I have no quarter for them. I do think they're very much part of the problem. And it's why on the Jimmy Kimmel thing, I have no tears to shed for him, even if the FCC were involved, which again, they made a threat. They didn't actually get involved. They didn't actually pull somebody's license or send a letter saying, give me all the justifications, or I'm going to pull your license under the following couple of provisions. And believe me, I spent the weekend looking up what authority, if any, the FCC has if it wanted to actually pull the license of ABC. And we'll get to that a little later this week. But it's why I can't work up any tears over what's happening to him because the media, they control everything. They control all the messaging, all the messaging. What would life have been like?

Would Charlie have lived? Would Trump not have gotten shot if we didn't have a media that was constantly telling us that they both are fascists? that they both are Nazis, how divisive they both are. If we didn't have a media that cheered the four indictments and pretended they were real, and that Trump had really obviously committed a bunch of crimes that didn't actually try to convince us he raped some woman who couldn't even remember the alleged year in which she was raped.

Like, would we? It's amazing to watch all these people, especially not for nothing, young black men, all over my ex feed, post videos talking about how they've watched endless Charlie Kirk clips, and they are now declaring themselves conservative and Republican. They've seen the truth. They're sick of the lying media.

And they've watched clip after clip. And if you watch clip after clip of Charlie, you do get to know him. Some have pointed out he was slightly more caustic on his radio show. I agree with that. That's fine. He was more pointed on his radio show and he was just opining about issues of the day. But face to face with people who disagreed with him, he could not have been more respectful. Are you that way?

If you have a disagreement with the other side and you're actually doing, dealing with them face to face? Yeah, you might be, you might be kinder. You might, like, on a radio show, you might have said something a little bit more caustic. Does that make you a bad person? No. You should be judged by how you treat the people when you're with them. And Charlie treated leftists who hated his guts with respect. And young men in particular, but also some women are seeing it. Leftists who are now declaring themselves conservative and on the right. I saw a graphic. It was like a cartoon on X yesterday and it showed like a fork in the road and one path leading to the right, one path leading to the left.

And on the left, there was one body. And over on the right, it's like a little cartoon. And over on the right, it was all filled with bodies, people walking. And it was basically saying the country after Charlie Kirk's assassination. And I think that's exactly right. People are looking not only at the fact that he got killed by an obvious leftist. By the way, so says his own mom, okay. But the leftist reaction to it, the refusal to condemn it, to be honest,

about it. It's the worst case of gaslighting we've seen in years. And that's saying something because we've been gaslit. I mean, COVID was a massive gaslighting on many issues. That's just one off the top of my head. So that's why the media is squarely within my own crosshairs here. And, hey, New York Times, you're paying attention. I don't mean gun sites. They sued, they tried to suggest Sarah Palin was responsible for Gabby Gifford's shooting because she used the term crosshairs. I mean my focus, because you are absolutely part of the problem and you're a big part of the problem. It's not trivial. So what's happened over the past couple of days is the media has decided to make this all about them because that's what they do. I got a couple of

examples. I'll go through them. I want to start with CNN's Ashley Allison. She's always out there saying inane things. Truly, she's constantly saying really, stupid things. I don't know why CNN employs her. Well, actually, I think I do. Here she is. It's not 20. Things that Charlie Kirk said drastically offended me. I have yet to have actually one person asked me why if they agreed with those things. It is very clear that Charlie Kirk should not have been murdered. But why not have a conversation with me and say, why did that upset you? And take the moment to listen and not have a comeback. And then I should ask the question about why did you really like the things that Charlie Kirk said.

No one's asked about me. Me. Hold on. Me. Yeah. That's her. What about me? Why aren't you ask about me to figure out my? Because no one gives a shit? That's why. That's why. I've quoted this woman a couple times now. I love her. We've got to get a button for this lady. She's all over X. Maybe you've seen her. She's this fabulous black woman, somewhere

in her mid-50s because she's like, she always described herself as menopausal. And she started the We Do Not Care Club. She's got like a highlighter in her hair. She's got a notebook that's like she's constantly flipping pages in and like doing her highlighting on it. She goes to the We Do Not Care Club. And, you know, she says, like, we do not care that you're cold. You know, like, we're sweating and you're going to have to suffer.

Whatever it is. We do not care that the laundry is sitting on. on the couch unfolded. Like, too bad, deal with it. We have other things to do. She's hilarious. And I have news for Ashley. We do not care. That is why we're not asking you. Why you didn't like Charlie, how you've been affected by Charlie's assassination. Things that Charlie Kirk said drastically offended me. I have yet to have actually one person ask me why. We do not care. Okay. then there's Karen Atia who talked about her a week ago

she wrote for the Washington Post she was a columnist there and for the New York Times before that she is the one who like literally either on 107 or on 108 tweeted out retweeted or liked a tweet that read this is what decolonization looks like

we had 1,200 dead Israelis we had elderly people dead we had babies and children dead and taken hostage We had young women raped and taken hostage, and she said, I like that tweet. This is what decolonization looks like. And the Washington Post kept employing her. It's the left.

It's her side that constantly uses that term dehumanize. Dehumanization. You've dehumanized me. I like, do you remember that one time back on Fox when I said Santa's White? I actually had some young black woman. come up to me and say, I felt dehumanized. Madam, that's your problem, not mine. If you can let some random comment about Santa by a Fox News anchor make you feel less than human,

that's a you problem. And honestly, like that side that's so worried about dehumanization had no problem with Karen Atia, the Washington Post columnist, looking at dead babies and saying, this is what decolonization looks like. Yeah, right on. They did not fire her. She kept her job. But she lost it in the wake of Charlie's assassination.

because she got, excuse me, she got out there, and she tweeted a couple things, posted on blue sky. What am I saying? She wouldn't tweet anything, excuse me, because she's not on X anymore. Here's what she said. Refusing to tear my clothes and smear ashes on my face in my face in performative mourning for a white man that espoused violence is not the same as violence. And then she tweeted, part of what keeps America so violent is the insistence that people perform care, empty goodness, and absolution for white men who espouse hatred and violence. She's pissed because she felt like people were insisting that she act like she cared about a white man who espoused hatred and violence who got murdered on camera in front of her

eyes. There is a level of inhumanity in this person that should be totally intolerable for any employer, not just the Washington Post. Who the hell would want to say, if you're a white man at the Washington Post, And by the way, it's owned by a white man. Why would she sit next to that? She's a lunatic. No one should employ her.

Who would? Why would you? Like maybe the UN will hire Karen it to you. That seems like a good place for her to land. But this is insane, this person. So she goes on with Jim Acosta and gives an interview and listen to what's on her mind about the whole thing. Stop 21. And I just wonder if you could lay out your thoughts.

on where you are right now and maybe explain a little bit what happened because you were pushed out essentially for what you said about Charlie Kirk. Yeah, and thank you so much. You actually, I think you were actually the first one to reach out. It's, it actually, I'm still processing, but it's actually been, I have not been able to land a one-on-one on a major network. no oh my god i've you're the first substock one um i went on with don lemon um you guys have been the only ones seemingly brave enough to have me on so i i also just want to say thank you you don't you have no idea how much this means to me and like i think it's just sadly a sign of the times for mainstream media not just in this moment and the culture of fear i think but also

So where the truth-tellers are finding themselves having to go. Okay, my head is hurting. He's the only one brave enough to put up. I have the answer that you're looking for, Karen. The reason no one has asked you for an interview is because really no one gives a shit about your story. Literally the only reason I raised your story is because I outed you for liking that tweet right after 10-7. so you've become a bit of a storyline on this show for your inhumanity, and this is just more proof of it.

That's why you're here. The reason only Jim Acosta and Don Lemon will talk to you is because you're a nobody. No one knows who you are. You behaved like a terrible person, and finally it caught up with you, and we're thrilled. It's justice. And even your mainstream media colleagues have absolutely no time for your terrible behavior. That's how irrelevant you've rendered. yourself. So congrats. Good luck in obscurity. Hope you enjoy substack. That's Karen Atia.

Not done. Here is Matthew Dowd. All right. He and I had some skirmish a long time ago. He's just, he's been, he's one of those guys who like really fancies himself a Christian and also calls himself a feminist, but is constantly attacking women if they're on the right. And actually conservatives, like, is that feminism? I don't know what that is. Um, And he's dating Maria Shriver. That's his girlfriend. Okay. I guess that he thinks that makes him something special.

Because he was on, on MSNBC, right after Charlie got killed. It was literally moments after we found out that Charlie was shot on September 10th. And here is what he said. It was SOT 25. I emphasize what you just emphasize. We don't know. the full details of this that we don't know if this was the supporter shooting their gun off in celebration or so we have no idea about this but following up what was just said he's been

one of the most divisive especially divisive younger figures in this who is constantly sort of pushing this sort of hate speech or sort of aimed at certain groups and i always go back to hateful thoughts lead to hateful words which then lead to hateful actions and i have think that's the environment we're in, that people just, you can't stop with these sort of awful thoughts you have and then saying these awful words and not expect awful actions to take place. And that's the unfortunate environment we're in. That is so infuriating. As Charlie, as far as he knew, is lying there struggling for his life with an assassin's bullet in his neck. The news that he had died had not yet hit.

That's where he went. Brought it on himself. Hateful words lead to hateful actions. Now, let me ask you something. In his case, Matthew Dowd's case, and by the way, in the case of NPR, which just this morning, as you know, I listened to these podcasts so you don't have to. Their news morning morning morning in talking about the Charlie Ulygy, he was a divisive figure, I quote, a divisive figure, Charlie. Now, do you think, if God forbid Rachel Maddow had something terrible happened to her, and NPR was talking about a service in her honor? They would refer to her as divisive? You think that would be the word that they used to describe her or anyone on the left. Jen Saki, Joy Reed, Joe Scarborough, any of them.

Do you think that they would say this is a divisive person in what's essentially the obit following their memorial? They only do that to people on the right. How is he divisive? Because he had views different from what the NPR people have. Views different from what Matthew Dowd on MSNBC had. That doesn't make him divisive. Maybe it's your insanity on the left that has made us have to call you out in very frank, honest, and possibly unpleasant for you, terms that you now have to call us divisive. That, like, what's so divisive about what Charlie was saying about gender was true?

What he was saying about race was stop dividing us by it. This is a fake social construct. You're the divisive ones who are making whites take. endless implicit bias training and telling white boys they're born with original sin and telling black boys that they're less than and society doesn't love them or value them the same as they do whites. You're the divisive ones. Stop saying that. So Matthew Dowd takes Charlie's alleged divisiveness to the point of, uh, the hateful words. You know where those are going to lead. And appropriately he gets fired by even MSNBC, not because they were really

offended by what he said, but because by even their standards, they realize things had gotten too hot. They had to look like they were upset. So they let him go. So where does he go? Karen Atia has to go to Don LaMont and Jim Acosta. I mean, you know you're at the bottom. And Matthew Dowd goes on with Katie Couric. Here's what happened. Watch. Now, if you watch any of their shows in the last 24 hours, all the shows are talking about how, like, this is awful for America that Jimmy Kimmel was, you know, indefinitely, suspended and isn't this awful for America and it's a chilling thing for the First Amendment and all they're saying that on every platform not one person has said anything about me not one person on that network

has said they've all gone out of the way to say isn't this horrible what happened to Jimmy Kimmel isn't even including Morning Joe and Mika who went after me after the show basically saying it they were glad I was terminated and now today they're talking about how awful it is for our country that somebody like Jimmy Kimmel can't say what he said and he is indefinitely suspended and not an not an iota about what their their employer just did to another employee did you hear from any of the anchors or correspondence some of them yeah i mean and all of them all the ones that i heard from were like i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry this is awful i can't believe this has happened i can't believe this has happened this is horrible this is horrible it doesn't say

it doesn't say good things about our company once again here here's matthew dowd Me? What about me? Why isn't anyone asking about me? Poor me. And he's two steps away from saying, how come I'm not getting invitations to go on Good Morning America to talk about how Charlie brought it on himself. It's crazy. He really, he's so sad. He's jealous of Jimmy Kimmel. He's like, why are people talking about Jimmy Kimmel? I was the OG person fired for insensitive Charlie Kirk remarks. I should be able to say whatever I want, no matter how insensitive, no matter how politically charged the atmosphere. That's my rule. So Katie Couric goes on with Matthew Dowd as follows, stop 24.

I also think about the chilling effect, Matthew, this has on other commentators who are on MSNBC, who are going to be, you know, be careful what they say, be less critical of the Trump administration for fear something like this happens. And, Kate, let me speak to that because I said that when they were terminating me. I said, you guys understand what this is going to do, that, you know, what this will do, well, this will cause people in the building to do. And they were like, decisions been made. Decisions been made.

And in the aftermath of this, I've had any number of MSNBC fee, and I won't mention names, any number of MSNBC people call me and say, they're reluctant to now invite certain guests on air. They're reluctant now to say. things that they would normally say. They're reluctant now to sort of book programming in a way that reveals what they want to reveal because they're scared. I'm really surprised at MSNBC.

I've got to be honest with you, Matthew, the way they handled it. And it is really bizarre and surprising and disappointing. And I'm sorry this happened to you. Oh, my God. What are you saying? The marketplace is working perfect.

this is exactly what should have happened. He said something absolutely wrong, insulting, and incendiary. As the powder keg was exploding, as a very prominent conservative 31-year-old was dying, and they knew it. Of course he needed to be fired. What do you mean you're surprised? I'm not surprised at all that MSNBCers are now feeling feeling. reluctant about booking their favorite people, many of whom would sound just like Matthew

Dowd. Of course, you're all insensitive assholes. You're going to need to be more careful. That's right. That's exactly right. The message you received from the firing is spot on. That's a crazy talk between those two. There's no ambiguity. He had to go, literally, it was a no-brainer for even MSNBC. They knew they had to. do it. And the two of them out there, I can't believe it. Oh, it's chilling of the free speech. Oh, my God. And that brings me to Van Jones. I'm going to take a break and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about him. A lot of you may have some kind of extra car that's just sitting around. Maybe it's an older model. You don't drive anymore. Maybe it's that second vehicle collecting

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All right, now we've got to talk about Van Jones. Um, he came out on Friday with a nice story about Charlie. And as I'm sure he predicted, it's now getting even conservatives to say nice things about Van. Well, I'm not one of them. Not today. And I'm going to explain to you why. Um, I'm just going to start back before the Charlie event. Let's go back to when my life blew up at NBC News. you know, you all know the story. So I was twisting in the wind. All these newspapers were calling me a racist because I said, you know, like the Blackface Halloween costumes, they weren't like considered cancelable

back in the 70s and 80s when I grew up. When did that happen? When did that change? It's literally what I said. That's the thing that caused the big controversy. And I got, quote, canceled for it, and people literally were calling me a racist for asking that question.

So Van Jones called me. He called me in the wake of that. We'd always been friendly. I was on Foxy. He was on CNN, but we've been friendly. And he said, Megan, I just want to say what's happening to you is wrong. It's deeply wrong. And I want to see if you're okay. So sweet, right? Extra touching, because this is a black man in media. And so he gets it. And he and I had lunch. I don't know, like, we knew each other. Like, we're friendly, if not true friends. And I was like, Van, this is so sweet. I really appreciate it. And he said, is there anything I can do for you? I said, well, you know, if you, if you

write an op-ed or an opinion or say something publicly, that would definitely be helpful. And he's like, I'll do it. I'm like, wow. And I remember feeling actually relieved because I had very few defenders, if any. I had a couple on the right, but nobody on the left. And like a week went by and he hadn't done it. I'm like, I was dealing with a lot of the time. He wasn't at the forethought of my mind, but I did realize it would be a helpful thing to have come out. And I followed back back up with him saying, just checking on whether that's happening. And he said, so sorry, but I changed my mind.

I can't do it because I recently did a thing with Jared Kushner, and now I'm getting death threats. And the FBI says, I really shouldn't put myself back out there because I'm getting these death threats now. And so I can't say anything on your behalf. Okay. It's whatever. I said, no problem.

totally get it. No worries. Goodbye. Didn't that? Wasn't expecting anything from him in the first place? It was his offer. It was his to withdraw. But that is one of the reasons why what he's doing now around Charlie really stood out to me. So what did Van Jones do around the Charlie Kirk story? The Monday before Charlie was killed, which was the Wednesday, September 10th. So this is the Monday, the 8th. Van Jones went on CNN and attacked Charlie Kirk. He attacked him because Charlie had suggested that there was a racial motive, at least in part, in the slaying of Irina Zaratska, on the light rail train in North Carolina. And the reason Charlie said that is because it had broken in the news that day that the murderer, who is black and Areno was white, said,

I got that white girl. I got that white girl. It's on tape. And either Van hadn't done his homework or ignored it if he did know about it or stupidly wrote it off as meaningless. Either way, Van went on CNN that Monday night, two days before Charlie was killed, and attacked Charlie as a racist. for concluding race may have played a factor in this murder. And here's what Van said. Charlie Kirk to say, we know he did it because she's white. When there's no evidence of that, it's just pure race mongering, hate mongering, it's wrong. Then he says that if something like that had happened the other way, there would be sweeping changes imposed on society.

Where is the George Floyd Policing Act? It didn't pass. That we don't know how to deal with people who are hurting in the way this man was. hurting, hurt people, hurt people. What happened was horrible. Someone like Charlie Kirk, he should be ashamed of himself. No one mentioned the word race, white, black, or anything, except him. Okay, so that was factually erroneous, and it was a smear. It was defamatory of Charlie Kirk. He was wrong on every front. Everything he said there was wrong. Literally every word out of his mouth was wrong. And a day and a half later, Charlie was killed. For the record,

While I was on the air covering the Charlie murder live on this program, I did say this is not Van Jones's fault. I was sure to point that out, and I maintain that position now. I do not believe Van Jones caused Charlie Kirk to get shot. But I do believe the collective leftist messaging around prominent right-wing figures is endangering them. From Donald Trump to Stephen Miller to Charlie Kirk and beyond. That is my firm belief. I'm sorry, but there's just too much evidence. I don't think my leftist friends are having to live their lives surrounded by security.

Like I now am, like Ben Shapiro has been, like Michael Knowles has to, like Matt Walsh has to, like Charlie had to. I don't think they are. I don't want that for them. I don't want it for me or my friends on the right either. And constantly throwing around these terms, fascist, racist, Nazi, is not okay. It's not that you don't have the right to say. It's not that you should be arrested for it.

Not making an argument against the First Amendment. It's that it's irresponsible. You are pouring fuel into a cauldron of hate that has now gotten one of ours killed and our most prominent leader of the Republican Party shot in the ear as one of his supporters behind him died in the arms of his family. We're not screwing around anymore. So it's not okay to go out there without any evidence that Charlie is a racist. And in fact, when you don't have your facts correct van and to call him a racist on the national airway,

It was totally irresponsible of you. It was wrong. And you have yet to undo it. You have yet to undo it. So Van Jones, then, I believe, because I don't think Van Jones is a bad man. I think he's a coward. Sees what happens to Charlie on Wednesday and clearly starts to panic because he's been in a very open fight with Charlie Kirk. And I believe that Van Jones thought people would turn it on him and say, screw you.

you were saying terrible things. And he didn't want that bad PR. And I believe at some level, because Van is not a bad man, he genuinely, of course, I accept that he felt genuinely sad that Charlie was killed. But not so sad he would go out and say, I was totally wrong about everything I said about him. I wrongfully smeared him on CNN two nights before he died. He didn't do that. Instead, he comes out with an op-ed on the 9th of September, which was this past Friday. So, you know, a week and a half after Charlie's death and a week and a half after Vanz's comments, calling him a racist. And he reveals to the world that, surprise, surprise, Charlie Kirk was a good guy. In this op-ed on CNN, he posts, the headline is, Charlie Kirk DM'd me, direct-missaged me, before he was murdered.

Here's what he said. And he goes on to talk about the fact that Charlie messaged him. The day before he died, September 9th, the day after Van Jones attacked him. Hey, Van, I mean it. I'd love to have you on my show to have a respectful conversation about crime and race. I would be a gentleman, as I know you would be as well. We can disagree about the issues, agreeably. And Van marvels about this.

He says, unfortunately, before I could even respond, Charlie was killed, seemingly assassinated for the words he's spoken. Though the killer's motives are still being investigated. So even there, even this past Friday, after the indictment, after we knew the mother said leftist ideology, pro-trans, pro-gay, the governor saying leftist ideology indoctrinated into it, the text messages with the, we knew about the boyfriend, trans, furry community, the online furry connection. Even then, what we knew was on the bullet casings, he's saying, the killer's exact motives are still being investigated. He can't, he can't let it go. It's got to still pretend it's a mystery. And the reason Charlie said, hey, Van, I mean it.

I'd love to have you on my shows because Charlie had said it publicly on his show. Charlie had tweeted it. Charlie had made it public that he was inviting Van to come on his show. It was not just in a direct message. It was just Charlie had gone over the top to try to get in front of Van with his message. Please come on. You would not know that from the way Van is talking about this. You would think, oh, he's like, oh, my team brought it to me after he died.

I was shocked. I didn't know, whatever. No, he was making it very, very public. it was a prominent news story involving you, and trust me, Van Jones definitely knows about his own media mentions. His behavior has made that clear. He goes on to say, the following. It was not hard for me to condemn Charlie's murder immediately without qualification and in

unconditional terms. That's true. In fact, Kirk's murder gives us all reason to come back to the table for dialogue. There's a rising tide of political violence that has already swept away his life in many others' lives from both the left and the right. Look what he's doing. No, it's your side. It's your side almost uniformly doing the violence and the killing against us. Own it. Acknowledge it. We don't know the motive, and it's really a both-sides issue. Violence like this should compel people in both parties to turn down the heat, seek common ground, and look for off-ramps

from the vitriol, as Kirk was doing with me the day before he died. If you are on the right, please don't give up on open debate and dialogue. Charlie didn't, I won't. And I make the same plea to folks on the left. Here he is on Anderson Cooper talking about it on Friday. Sop 15. We were going at it online, on air, and then after you died, after he was murdered, my team called and said, Venn.

He was trying to reach you, man. What? And I've sat on it long enough and I just said, you know what? We're going to memorial weekend for this man. We disagree. Everybody knows. We were not friends, okay, at all. But you praise the good when it's time to memorialize somebody. And what he did, and I didn't even know it, was good. He was not for censorship. He was not for civil war. He was not for violence. He was for dialogue. Open debate and dialogue. Even with me. We know. We all know that. I believe this is Van Jones trying to make himself look good, not trying to appeal to leftists to reevaluate Charlie Kirk. And here's in part why, because you heard in the op-ed, he's not acknowledging motives, and he's both siding the violence. And he goes on to say the following on Anderson Cooper and sought 16.

He was for dialogue, open debate and dialogue. Even with me, even with me. If, would you have gone on his show? Would you have done? No, look, I would have probably tried to get him on your show. I mean, I wasn't trying to build this platform, but I would have called him. So no. He wouldn't have gone.

I mean, it seems clear to me he probably knew about the invitation because Charlie tweeted it and said it publicly on his show. And in addition, DMed him. And I don't, I'm not sure I believe that he only saw the DM after Charlie died either. I have to be honest. I just don't. But he didn't want to platform Charlie. He didn't want to Dane to sit down with the likes of Charlie Kirk and drive viewers to his platform because he's so hateful.

He's not backing off one bit of these lies about Charlie that Jinda paid around him in all pockets on the left. And who knows whether those pockets may have been in Utah as well. Not backing down. And then he drops this, sought 17 over the weekend. So the last thing I expected was to hear from him. In fact, we were trying to deal with the wave of death threats and racial stuff that was coming at me in the middle of controversy. Look, I was the recipient, myself, a pretty caustic language from Charlie Kirk.

And unfortunately, a lot of his followers were even worse than that, frankly much worse, including racist death threats. I'm infuriated by that. So that, now you see why I told you the earlier story. He couldn't, you know, behind the scenes to me, I got your back. He did nothing wrong. You know, this is so deeply wrong what's happening to you. And I'm going to do something. I'm going to stand up. And then, oh, I can't because I'm getting death threats. I'm getting racist death threats. So I can't. Sorry. And now he calls Charlie a racist a day and a half before Charlie is assassinated by somebody said he's too full of hate. Some hate can't be negotiated out. And he says, oh, you know, I was the victim.

See, I was getting death threats. That's why I couldn't. I know, I really, I was getting death threats because of him and his supporters. This whole thing is bullshit. Let me give you a lesson, Van. Okay? You needed, forget my circumstance. What you should have done with me is say nothing.

Or don't volunteer to do anything. Don't try to lie about your alleged death threats. And what death threats, by the way? What are the death threats? Because literally, if you're in media, you get these every day. on your tweets. I mean, if you scrolled any controversial tweet I've ever sent out, you will see a few on there who threatened to rape and kill. I'm sorry, it's part of being a public figure. So what death threats exactly? Then there are other death threats that come that rise to

another level where you actually have to get security involved and chase down the person who's threatening you and figure out whether they've got the means, whether they've got the location, and so on. There's a whole security ladder that you have to go through. What are you talking about? because I don't believe you. I don't believe you had anything more than some negative Twitter mentions. This is like his tool that he goes to. Death threats, death threats against me, I'm the victim.

Death threats so I can't do the op-ed. Sorry, but I want to look like a good guy. Death threats against, you know, because of what Charlie said about me. No, you are the offender. You are the one who called him a racist, totally unjustified on CNN, and didn't have the guts to take it down,

take it back and correct it when you knew it was untrue. You had made the mistake. And now you want credit for telling us that he invited you on his show, that he was a gentleman, that he actually did want dialogue, that he, unlike you, was not behaving fraudulently. But you also want us to know that

his people are all racist who were giving you racist death threats after you unjustifiably called Charlie a racist. I'm done. I'm done. I'm sorry. This is why we How do we deal with that? How do we do what he said? Oh, we got to go forward together in his little op-ed, all this stuff.

Oh, we don't give up on open debate and dialogue. Turn down the heat. Seek common ground. Look for off-ramps. That's what Charlie did. You called him a racist? And now you're out there today saying, oh, this is the reporter saying me? Me, I'm the victim.

Racist death threats. Don't you think Charlie got? I think Charlie got the death threats, one of which came true. That's really the only issue. I'm just saying, like, you're not the victim. Be bold. Say what you actually mean. When you screw it up, apologize, and take it back, like a man.

And don't fall back on alleged death threats, which is your go-to, to excuse your own terrible behavior. That's what you're doing. It's infuriating. And it's part of, like, an ongoing thing on the left, just this morning. on The New York Times is The Daily Podcast, which you guys know I listen to, so you don't have to. Listen to how they ended it. It was all about Charlie's Memorial.

Listen to the note on which they ended this story. There are many people who feel like his assassination marks a kind of turning point that it has to have changed something. I mean, we heard over and over. One thing that really won't change is Turning Point USA, except it'll be bigger and better than before. But basically, we'll continue Charlie's work.

But then what does? We seem at least, you know, and this is not nothing in the 11 days since Kirk's assassination, there has not been this roiling violence from the right. But is there going to be an agreement that that is not the way? What? In the 11 days since Charlie was assassinated, there hasn't been roiling violence from the right. but we're going to have to wait to see if this is the way. What are you saying?

You guys committed the violence. You did it. This was leftist violence. Leftist. Get it straight. What do you mean? There's been no roiling right. Of course there hasn't.

Of course. Like, the rewriting of this whole narrative is, it has such gall. The unmited gale. And it's all hashish. Part of the problem. You know, right now there's a poll out. Jesse Kelly was tweeting about this. Hold on.

I have to try to find it. This is it in my AM updater is in my main packet. And it talks about what leftists believe on the, on who's doing the violence. And it's stunning. It's completely wrong. And it's stunning. It shows when you ask, hold on.

Okay, who believes? that Charlie's shooting was motivated by left-wing beliefs or right-wing beliefs. Just for the record, Charlie's shooting was motivated by left-wing beliefs. So says the Utah governor. So says the FBI. So says the shooter's mother. Okay? So they asked in a survey people what they believed.

Overall? Hold on. I get to it. overall, okay, 37% believe it was left-wing beliefs. That's true. 30% are not true. I'm not sure. How do they, why are they not sure? 17% say we think it's right-wing beliefs. Okay, who are those 17%? They've been deeply misled. They're MSNBC watchers or perhaps CNN watchers. So you look into Democrats. How about you? Among Democrats, 33%, one-third of Democrats believe the shooter was motivated by right-wing beliefs. Right-wing, right-wing. That's wrong.

It's incorrect. One third of the Democrat Party believes it. What percentage of Democrats believe and understand that it was left-wing believes? Ten. Ten percent. As Jesse put it, three times as many Democrats believe that the assassin was a right-winger instead of a lefty porn addicted freak who thought he was fighting fascism. Three times. Three times. And he goes on, and you don't have to be some tranny Reddit freak to believe those lies. If you just do things previously thought of as normal,

you live in that pretend world. If you read the New York Times and watch NBC News, your entire world is fake. He goes on. He cites it Saturday, September 20th, NBC headline. No evidence found yet of ties between Charlie Kirk shooting and left-wing groups, officials say, okay, none whatsoever, all right.

That's what they want you to know. How about just the left-wing? Then he says, I'm not sure how this ends, but you need to train and pray. these things are not optional. Do not for a second think Charlie Kirk will be our last martyr. These people are nuts and they're dead serious. All this matters. Honesty in news reporting matters. We know what he was motivated by and we know who's doing the violence. Just today, we had two additional, over the weekend. We had two additional acts of violence perpetrated by left-wing tyrants. One guy, there were two of them.

Until we can come to terms with what's actually happening in this country, there can be no reaching across the aisle. There's not going to be a kumbaya moment until you can prove to us that you are honest and we can deal with you. And unless and until that point, we are forging on without you. We are going to grow our ranks. We are going to register as many people as possible who took that right-wing path after Charlie's death to vote Republican in every single election. We are not going to care about your issues. We are not going to get upset when you tell us to about allegations against. our side, we are going to be singularly focused on defeating you. Defeating you. And that's

where I am. We'll see tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.