The Megyn Kelly Show - Damning Report on Biden's Mental Fitness, and if Jeffrey Epstein Killed Himself, with Ben Shapiro, Mark Epstein, and Steve Krakauer | Ep. 721

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

Megyn Kelly begins the show by detailing the extraordinary and terrible press conference from President Joe Biden after the damning details revealed in the Special Counsel's classified documents report. Then Ben Shapiro, host of The Daily Wire's Ben Shapiro Show, joins to discuss Biden's struggles with memory we learned in the report, the alarming press conference, the American public believing Biden is not mentally fit to be president, the truth about Biden's mishandling of classified documents, the lies he told about it in his press conference, and more. Then Steve Krakauer, executive producer of 'The Megyn Kelly Show," joins to discuss the corporate media’s take on Biden’s characterization of the special counsel’s report, their spin for Biden when it's their duty to question authority, and more. Then Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, joins to discuss whether Jeffrey’s death was truly a suicide, what the autopsy photos really show and why they raise questions about if it's a suicide, Mark’s inability to get answers from the government, the mistake of moving his body after he was found dead, all of the factors that were abnormal leading up to Epstein's supposed "suicide," the unnamed guards mentioned in reports, the camera’s mysterious malfunction that day, whether the DOJ is covering something up, how he thinks his brother made his money, and more.Shapiro- https://www.dailywire.com/ Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow 

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. It's Friday and we have a massive show for you today. Ahead, I'll be speaking with Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, who is here to release a never before seen, rather gruesome, but important photo of Jeffrey Epstein taken right after his death that he believes proves his brother did not commit suicide. I've got to tell you, looking at the photo, I've got my own doubts as well. I had him even before I saw the photo, but we'll go through it. But first, Ben Shapiro is here to discuss the absolutely extraordinary event that we saw last night and a potential breaking point for the Democratic Party with their nominee. We on this show yesterday were talking about President Joe Biden's mental acuity and the multiple instances over the years and lately of him seeming to falter. Well, let's just say it happened again. And it's been happening a lot behind the scenes

in ways that even we did not expect. The president holding a primetime news address last night to the nation, very rare for him to respond directly to special counsel Robert Herr's report on Mr. Biden's mishandling of classified documents. The report hit late Thursday and recommended no criminal charges. But Mr. Biden, who responded to the report with that live primetime address, also widely misled the country about what was actually in that report. And we do have a fact check. In addition, and perhaps most notably, the report gave a damning account, to put it gently, of the president's mental acuity in dealing with the special counsel. It said Mr. Biden could not remember the year his son Beau died of cancer, quote,

within several years. He could not state when Bo died. And once asked during an interview with prosecutors, he asked them, when did I stop being vice president? A couple of questions, at least in this report, according to the special counsel that Joe Biden asked about when he was vice president, it wasn't a one-off. Mr. Biden last night taking issue, at least with that allegation about Boehm. I know there's some attention paid to some language in the report about my recollection of events. There's even reference that I don't remember when my son died. How in the hell dare he raise that? Frankly, when I was asked the question, I thought to myself, it wasn't any of their damn business. After he made that remark, Mr. Biden went on to talk about the rosary beads that he wears on his wrist to honor Beau.

Beau was wearing them when he passed. But watch here. It seemed clear, at least to me, that the president forgot where those beads were from when he was talking. Let me tell you something. Some of you have commented, I wear, since the day he died, every single day, the rosary he got from Our Lady of...

I remembered this from my own personal experience. You can hear him trail off there. The beads he was referencing are from Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico, a fact I know because he shared it with me five years ago. Tell us about the rosary beads on your wrist. Well, I, Bo wore these. Hunt got these for Beau and me and at Our Lady of Guadalupe down in Mexico. And I visited there and we all wore them. That's five years ago.

He couldn't remember last night. The reason it's relevant, of course, is because he was trying to rebut while standing out there accusations that he has forgotten major details around major events of his life, including the death of his son. That one, not a major detail, but it speaks to his problem, as so many of his statements last night did. Speaking of Mexico, after taking questions from the press, repeatedly raising his voice, misstating facts to reporters over and over, Mr. Biden then went to leave the room.

But in what one can only imagine was a move that actively stirred the nausea and nerves in the pits of the stomachs of his core supporters, he came back to the microphone. My God, the stress. Only to then refer to Egypt's president, al-Sisi, as the president of Mexico. As you know, initially, the president of Mexico, al-Sisi, did not want to open up the gate to allow humanitarian material to get in. I talked to him.

I convinced him to open the gate. Oh, my God. That's the third time this week, for those of you counting, that he has publicly confused the identities of foreign leaders. He also claimed on Wednesday that he had spoken to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl in 2021. Mr. Kohl, by that point, had been dead for four years. On Sunday, he said at a campaign event in Vegas that he had recently had a chat with Francois Mitterrand of Germany. Mr. Mitterrand, of course, was the president of France, not Germany. And much like Helmut Kohl, is no longer alive, dead for almost 30 years, in fact, and was not recently speaking to Joe Biden.

Yesterday, he also referred to red states and green states and mumbled through a remark we think was about Roe v. Wade. When I pushed all these programs, I said I'm going to be a president of everybody whether they live in a red state or a green state. Making Roe v. Ward the law of the land. The law of the land. Roe v. what? Who? Ward? An unnamed Democratic ally of Mr. Biden told NBC that yesterday was, quote, the worst day of his presidency. And already there are Republican calls to invoke the 25th Amendment, which allows a sitting president to be removed for incapacity. Joining me now, Ben Shapiro, editor emeritus of The Daily Wire and host of The Ben Shapiro Show, who has a very well-timed series on The Daily Wire right now called The Divided States of Biden. Remember how he was going to be so unifying? Anyway, Ben took a look. Ben, great to have you.

What did you make of that event last night? That was the challenger explosion of press conferences. I mean, it truly was the worst press conference I have ever seen by far. I've been watching these things for well over 20 years at this point. And obviously, I've watched a lot of tape. That was horrendous. I'm well-meaning and I'm an elderly man and I know what the hell I'm doing. I've been president and I put this country back on its feet. I don't need his recommendation. How bad is your memory and can you continue as president? My memory is so bad,

I let you speak. Do you feel your memory has gotten worse, Mr. President? My memory is not good. My memory is fine. My memory, take a look at what I've done since I've become president. None of you thought I could pass any of the things I got passed. How'd that happen? You know, I guess I just forgot. When you were asked about your age, you would respond with the words, watch me.

Many American people have been watching, and they have expressed concerns about your age. That is your judgment. That is not the. That is your judgment. That is not the judgment of the press. Not just was it horrendous, it was on purpose, meaning he didn't have to do a press conference last night. The entire purpose of the presser was to dissuade Americans that the special counsel was right about his state of mind

and his mental acuity, as you say. And so he calls this press conference at 745 at night. So he doesn't even have the excuse of saying it's super late at night. I was really tired or something. He calls it at 745 at night, which actually is usually after he calls a lid, usually calls the lid like 7 p.m. at a maximum. So he wanders out about 755. He doesn't look like he kind of knows what he's doing. He starts off hot for maybe a minute and a half. I mean, I literally played on my show the entirety of the press conference to show how even over the course of 10 minutes, he degrades. I mean, it's an insane thing. The first minute and a half, he is reading off the teleprompter, and then he starts to pretty obviously fall apart. And as you mentioned, he completely wrecks himself over the question of where his son's rosary is from. Again,

that is a self-owned. Nobody even asked him about it. And he's and he's offering that up and then failing. And then he wanders away and then he wanders back and then he makes the mistake mixing up El-Sisi of Egypt with AMLO of Mexico, which, I mean, for the record, might explain why we have an open border. He's asking the wrong guy to close the border. He just keeps calling up El-Sisi and saying, shut the border. And El-Sisi's like, I am shutting the border, but he means the Gaza border. I mean, what a complete disaster area for the president. It's hard to see, frankly, how he survives this. The media basically now have a choice. The media can either openly report what's going on. And every day from now until the election will be a

question about his mental state. I mean, it should have been already, obviously. And as I've been saying for several years at this point, really, since he ran again in 2020, I've been saying that watching a press conference with Joe Biden is like watching one of the Wallenda brothers trying to cross a volcano on a tightrope because it might be the moment that he falls off the tightrope into the volcano. And last night, he fell off the tightrope into the volcano. The only question is why the Democratic Party is so convinced that they can beat Donald Trump

with literally a person who is not mentally there that they decide to stick with him rather than tossing him overboard or whether it just happens that Joe Biden picked the single best presidential insurance anyone could ever pick by making Kamala Harris his vice president. Because if the Democratic Party

looks at the person backing him up, they think, well, here we have a senile old man who can't hold it together for more than about four minutes at a stretch the person backing him up, they think, well, here we have a senile old man who can't hold it together for more than about four minutes at a stretch. But backing him up, we have the single most unpopular politician in American life. Maybe that was the only clever move that that Biden has made during his presidency and pre-presidency was picking Kamala Harris to back him up so that the incentive structure is you have to keep him in place. You have no joys. It actually was pretty brilliant if that was the long game. He knew because according to the special counsel report, he's been going downhill for quite some time. It's not it's not anything new just for the audience at home. You know, there's there's the double whammy in this report. Number one, he did have classified documents unsecured in various locations in his house. The very thing that Trump is accused of doing. Yes, Trump is accused of doing more than that, namely obstructing attempts to retrieve the documents when the feds came calling.

But on the core offense, these two men are accused of doing the same thing, taking a bunch of classified documents home to their houses, keeping them in unsecured locations, including those more classified or highly classified. special counsel took at Joe Biden and the explanation of why, despite the fact that he had done some of the same things as Trump, he didn't think charges could be brought. And that is what's caused all the consternation. To me, it's like the stuff he wrote about Biden's memory is even bigger than the classified documents stuff, because I did not expect the classified documents stuff to lead right to an indictment. So here's what he writes. In part, this is in the special counsel report. Mr. Biden's recorded conversations with his ghostwriter, Mark Zwanitzer from 2017, are often painfully slow with Mr. Biden struggling to remember events and straining at times to read

and relay his own notebook entries. In his interview with our office, Mr. Biden's memory was worse. He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended, quote, if it was 2013, when did I stop being vice president, end quote, and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began, quote, in 2009, am I still vice president? End quote. He did not remember even within several years when his son, Beau, died and concluded here, Ben, this is important. We have considered, in addition to the rest, that at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory. My God.

Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him, he's someone for whom many jurors would want to identify with reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him by then a former president well into his 80s of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness. Now, I want to there's a lot to dissect there, including the left spin on all of this today is that was all gratuitous. He did not have to add this stuff about the memory. That's just him taking a shot, inappropriate shot at Joe Biden, much as Comey, in their view, unfairly took shots at Hillary Clinton. But I mean, you're a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. The guy makes clear why he's mentioning

the memory lapses, because he's assessing how this case would go were he to get it in front of a jury. That's literally the only excuse he has for not prosecuting, because one of the things that Joe Biden actually did in this case, if you read the entire document, which I spent the time to do yesterday, if you actually read the entire document, one of the things that is very clear is that Joe Biden did the criming on tape. I don't know why it is that politicians violate the first law of criming, which is don't crime on tape. But Joe Biden literally did the crime on tape. He's talking to his ghostwriter and he literally says, just a minute, I just found the classified documents downstairs. Right. He literally says that on tape. I mean, that's that's in the actual report. And so what

the prosecutor has to come up with is how can he say that and then simultaneously claim that he wasn't mishandling classified documents? In other words, that's an admission that he knows they're classified documents and second, that they are where they're not supposed to be. Right. And so what the prosecutor has to come up with is some justification for why that doesn't end in the criminal prosecution of the president of the United States. And what he comes up with is, there's no way we can win this at trial

because he's just gonna claim that he doesn't remember any of this and that he didn't remember it at the time, that he's been in a downward mental spiral the whole time. So obviously it's relevant to the question. And beyond that, this dog isn't gonna hunt. This is a special counsel who's appointed by the president of the United States as attorney general.

So in other words, the person who's working for your own DOJ says that you don't have the mental acuity of the president. And you're going to claim that he is somehow what a deep state agent. I've heard that song and dance before. And what I've been told by the media and by Joe Biden is that if you even say things like that, that that is an act of de facto treason. And if you talk about the deep state and lifelong appointees to these sorts of offices, well, that means that you are doubting the system of American government. So any way you turn, Biden is boxed in here. I mean, some of the other defenses that you're hearing that he tried to trot out last night, that when he did the interview with the special

counsel, it was the day after October 7th, and therefore he wasn't all with it, which, I mean, that's worse. We hire you to do the job predicated on the idea that as president, you're going to face international emergencies. If your answer to that is I faced an international emergency and suddenly forgot when I was vice president and when my son died, that's not exactly going to quiet the critics. That was one that you heard Rachel Maddow last night claiming that, well, at least he can still ride a bike, which, by the way, he can't literally fell off his bike. There's just no place to turn here for Joe Biden. And that is why, you know, honestly, this this election, 2024 is basically both parties have the same slogan, which is,

well, at least it's not that guy. And I don't know that that's going to work for Joe, especially because Democrats entire claim about Trump is that Trump is Warren Chetler. He's going to destroy democracy, that Biden is the only one standing in the door preventing all of that from happening. If they really believe that, shouldn't they dump him overboard for somebody who has any element of vigor and doesn't seem like he needs to be put to bed by the night nurse at 630 p.m. after an early dinner at Denny's? No, it's definitely tapioca and Matlock time. I mean, that's the obvious conclusion in reading this report. And yet what you have all over the Internet today is spin, spin and more spin. by the way, by a partisan Republican investigator, like it's a bigger liability than Trump's 91 criminal charges and being found liable for rape. And he had more along those lines, Ben. I mean, he he was spinning like, you know, the spin master last night. And the thing that he's

either missing intentionally or not is the reason it's not that this single line in the report is changing Biden's trajectory. It's because it affirms, confirms and dovetails perfectly with the American public's preceding perceptions of Joe Biden. The NBC News poll just out showed 77 percent of the electorate has either moderate or major concerns about his mental acuity. That's why it's so damning. Of course, it's all confirming, as you say. And last night, Joe Biden in the middle of this press conference. So first of all, I don't tend to like to sort of analyze politicians based on their affect, because I'm more interested in what they say and what they do than sort of how they look while they're doing it. But the entire purpose of that press conference was to project an affect. It was to project the affect that he is

with it, that he's vigorous, that he's vital, that he still knows what's going on. He looked physically wounded by reporters shouting at him questions, which is sort of the norm in a press scrum like that. I mean, he basically he begged for it. He came back for a second helping of it. And one of the things that he said in the middle of that is one of the one of the members of the press corps asked him about the fact that Americans are deeply concerned about his mental acuity. And his answer to that was, well, just you. You don't speak for the press. But that, of course, is a lie. I mean, first of all, she may not speak for the press, but she's speaking for the American people. The polling numbers suggest that he is of deep concern in terms of his ability to even do this job.

How Kamala Harris doesn't become the center of this campaign from here on out, even if Biden remains the nominee is beyond me. I just would you put would anyone put money on Joe Biden surviving a second term in office? We're in February right now. What is it? What is this campaign going to do to him between now and November? And now again, I think Republicans can get pretty sanguine about this. They can say, OK, well, that means that Trump is going to win. I'd just like to remind my Republican friends that John Fetterman is currently a senator from Pennsylvania after suffering a debilitating stroke. So it doesn't mean that Biden couldn't win even in the state that he currently is. What it does mean is that if you're a Democrat, do you want to like right

now they could make a call. They could pull their guy. And theoretically, they could pull Kamala Harris, too. And that is well within the remit of the Democratic Party. They do have a lot of power, a lot more power over their candidates than Republicans do over their candidates. Obviously, you could see a world where they pull the man and say, OK, we got to substitute somebody else in there. Do they have the actual stones to do it? I really don't think so. I think this is the problem for the Democratic Party. They pull Biden. They open a massive can of worms. Well, that's one of the questions I had as I watched it last night, which was, is this intentional? Because when have we seen him out there dealing with the press on his own without a handler, whether it's the Easter bunny or an actual press communications person

managing who's going to get to ask him how many questions or wrapping him, getting him off stage. He was out there alone. And I cannot imagine his top people thought it was a good idea for at nine o'clock at night, Mr. I put a lid on everything at 4 p.m. every day to go out there live and try to prove how sharp he is mentally. We know we know from behind the scenes reports as well as what we see on camera. He's not. So it did make me wonder. Is this him overruling the staff or is this the staff saying go right ahead because they realize there's an obligation to let the country see what's happening? I mean, so I jokingly tweeted last night, Kamala Harris and the conservatory

with the wrench, you know, like person person who is, you know, getting getting the most play out of this, obviously, is Kamala, whose name is never mentioned outside of bad circumstances. But my gut tells me that what happened here is that Joe Biden overruled his staff. My guess is that his staff told him, you cannot go out there under any circumstances. You cannot do it. And he gets insulted. He gets his back up. The special counsel suggests that he is sort of a well-meaning, kindly, elderly fellow with a bad memory. And Joe Biden signally proved that he is not, in fact, a kindly gentleman. Right. He didn't he didn't assuage anybody's concerns about his memory or his or his acuity. But he certainly assuaged people's concerns about whether he's

a nice person or not. He came out yelling and screaming at the press. And the reality is that behind closed doors, apparently that's what he is. So it would not shock me at all. It seemed, in fact, most probable likelihood that what happened is that behind closed doors, he got this report. He was insulted by the report. He didn't understand why people were saying that he's not with it anymore. He spent his entire career scheming to get to the place where he currently is, you know, like a vast number of politicians. And he's so deeply insulted. He thought, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to show the world. And instead, he just proceeded to step in a bear trap of his own making. Here's here's one of those moments that you just made a reference to in SOT6. Take a listen here.

Mr. President, for months when you were asked about your age, you would respond with the words, watch me. Many American people have been watching and they have expressed concerns about your age. That is your judgment. That is your judgment. That is not the judgment of the press. All right. It's yet another mistake. I think you meant to say public. You did. No one cares what the judgment of the press is. By the way, the judgment of the press is very clearly he's great. He's fine. Nothing to see here. But the judgment of the public, as we just went over, is nearly 80 percent have deep concerns. So the question, Ben, now is. Now what? Right. You've got Claudine Tenney. She's a

Republican from New York, which is always interesting because that's not like the deep, deep red state Republicans, but she's already calling for 25th Amendment that the administration has got to explore this. He's he's incapacitated. We went back and looked. I mean, almost as soon as Trump started challenging the election results in November 2020, 25th Amendment, he's incapacitated. He doesn't have the mental acuity to do this anymore. Obviously, the man's lost his marbles. Those same characters are not calling for 25th Amendment now. But look, 25th Amendment with nine months to go, I think you could make a case it's necessary.

I don't know about you, but I did not go to bed feeling safe last night. I really didn't. And I'm like, if I were in Taiwan, I'd be scared as hell right now looking at that president as a potential deterrent against Xi. But the reality is we have an election coming up and there's an easier way of shepherding him out the door. So what do you think comes next? I mean, his own cabinet is not going to 25th Amendment him. That'd be a tacit admission that they had shoveled onto the stage a person who was not presidential timber in 2020. I mean, his own cabinet is not going to 25th Amendment him. That would be a tacit admission that they had shoveled onto the stage a person who was not presidential timber in 2020. I mean, one of the things that's amazing about the special counsel report, you read the section where they say that even in his interviews with his ghostwriter from 2017, he was fading. And it was three years after that that he ran for president of the United States.

So I don't think that that's a realistic scenario. They're not going to 25th Amendment him. The only question right now is whether he will resign for the overall good of, of the election. Again, I don't think he will. I think that, you know, everybody has been wondering since we, since we entered the, the post Obama era, you know, who's writing this show. I have to say the writing, the season of Trump is just off the wall. This is like, this is the revitalization of, of the, of the Trump show. And I can't tell whether the season is good or bad. It's kind of like the last season of Game of Thrones until we get to the conclusion of

this thing. But I think the grand assumption, which is that this can't continue the way that it is, is wrong. I think it absolutely can't get the way that it is. They're going to hide him in the basement. And the actual predictable result of this is less Joe Biden. You're just going to get him hiding in the basement from now until the election cycle. And you're going to get Trump, who should actually hide in the basement if he

wishes to win reelection, probably not hiding in the basement. And it's going to be a long election cycle. I actually don't think that they're going to pull him because I don't think they can convince him to pull himself, actually. That's clear. All right. No, we have a little fact check for the audience because we did go through some of the nonsense claims regarding the special counsel's report. I'm just going to go through them quickly. He misled the nation on key elements of the special counsel's report. Here's one example. I've seen the headlines since the report was released about my willful retention of documents. This these assertion is not only misleading, they're just plain wrong. On page 215, if you had a chance, I know it's a long,

it's a thick document. On page 215, a report of the special counsel found the exact opposite. Here's what he wrote. There is in fact a shortage of evidence that I willfully retain classified materials related to Afghanistan. On page 12, the special counsel also wrote for another documents, the decision to decline criminal charges was straightforward. The evidence suggests that Mr. Biden did not willfully retain these documents. He's misleading you. In certain parts of the report, the special counsel found Mr. Biden may not have realized folders contain national defense information. And if that's the case, that he then would not

have willfully retained such info. But the special counsel makes it clear in the second paragraph of the report that, quote, our investigation uncovered evidence that President Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified materials after his vice presidency when he was a private citizen. Done. The president also misled on the following. I did not share classified information. I did not share with my ghostwriter. I did not guarantee you did not. Well, no, they did not say that. OK, you didn't say that you shared classified information, not with your ghostwriter. The report actually found, quote, Mr. Biden sometimes skipped

over presumptive, presumptively classified material and warned his ghostwriter that the entries might be classified. But at least three times, Mr. Biden read from classified entries aloud to his ghostwriter nearly verbatim. By the way, the ghostwriter was told to turn over the tapes that he had of Mr. Biden doing all that. And he deleted the tapes after the investigation began. They considered charging him criminally. Real question as to why he didn't get charged. Why is Trump's right hand man, Walt Natua, facing all these charges?

But the ghostwriter who's destroying tapes when he knows that there's an investigation underway. Different story. I'd love to get an answer to that. And then there was this claim. I didn't know how half the boxes got in my garage until I found out staff gathered them up, put them together and took them to the garage in my home. And all the stuff that was in my home was in filing cabinets that were either locked or able to be locked. It was in my house. It wasn't out in like in Mar-a-Lago in a public place where and none of it was high classified, didn't have any that red stuff on it. You know what I mean? Around the corners, none of that.

However, according to the report, among the places Mr. Biden's lawyers found classified documents was a damaged open box in his garage. Look at this picture. Is it possible the president had these documents under lock and key at some point? I guess so, but they weren't here. So once again, he's misleading. And all of this will be ignored, Ben, because we're supposed to just believe it's totally different. Trump is worse. The special counsel pointed out that Trump is worse, which I concede. The special counsel did point that out on the document retention and production once subpoenas have been issued. But that doesn't excuse what Joe Biden did, because he's been out there for years now since Trump got in trouble, telling us how horrific he finds this. That's right. I mean, so there are a few charges that

President Trump is facing in the classified documents case. Some are obstruction charges and some are mishandling of classified documents charges. The sort of distinction between the two would only be with regard to obstruction. It would only be with regard to President Trump shifting the boxes around in Mar-a-Lago or whatever. But the underlying question of whether Trump retained classified documents is exactly the same as whether Joe Biden retained classified documents. In fact, the special counsel's report specifically says that it was totally in Joe Biden's interest to retain classified documents. In fact, some of the excuses that Joe Biden used with regard to classified documents sound very much like the kinds of excuses that you hear from President Trump. He, for example, had a bunch of classified materials

and notebooks that he'd written. He said, these are my notebooks. These notebooks belong to me. These are my materials. That's exactly the same thing that President Trump says about a lot of materials that were in his possession. So at the best, you can say the special counsel's office sort of distinguished the obstruction charges against Trump from no obstruction for Biden. But as far as the mishandling of classified materials, there's no question that Biden not only mishandled classified materials, he knowingly mishandled classified materials. He just had excuses for it. And then when he got caught, he turned it over.

OK, so that is a distinction that when he got caught, he turned it over. But again, that doesn't explain why he was let off the hook on the classified dock charges, which is why it is necessary, again, for the special counsel to say we let him off because we couldn't prosecute him, because if we prosecuted him, he would get off because he's old and senile. Yeah. So, I mean, really, you saw it all over Twitter last night, X, that he's not mentally competent to stand trial or to be convicted in a court of law, but he is to be president, to be reelected to a second term. I mean, realistically, this is going to be on about 10,000 ads, bumper stickers, slogan. Trump's going to be out there

nonstop with that phrase, elderly, what is it? Elderly man with a bad memory. That's going to be everywhere. And that's putting it mildly, by the way, just a little color on that. Biden's lawyers came out and ripped down the report in part by saying it quote, uses a, uses highly prejudicial language, which by the way, we always used to say in the law, you can object prejudicial and you'll get laughed out of court. You have to object unfairly prejudicial. That's what the law prohibits in a courtroom. Unfairly prejudicial.

Yes, the entire prosecution case will be prejudicial. It's going to hurt. Unfairly is the question. So it's interesting that they just say it's highly prejudicial. Yes, conceited. It makes your guy look bad, but you're not claiming it was unfair because it wasn't. To describe a commonplace occurrence among witnesses like they all suffered from this, Ben, quote, a lack of recall of years old events like when his son died, like when he was the vice

president. It's just not going to fly. I mean, what's amazing about this, just speaking historically, is that we have had cases where the president of the United States was incapacitated and continue to serve. Obviously, Woodrow Wilson was incapacitated for the last several years of his administration. His wife was basically President Edith. And then there are serious questions about at the very tail end of Ronald Reagan's tenure, because during Iran-Contra, he also said that he couldn't remember a lot of things. And that was a major national scandal at the time. We're not talking about the end of a man's second term. We're talking about a guy's first term. He's still up for election. That's the part that's so insane about all of this is that knowing this, going in, they're running him

right now. And again, if he were elected, he would finish his second term and he would be 86 years old. Does anyone believe that he is going, I mean, given his state right now, given the amount of decline he's shown even between 2020 and 2024, what exactly does that trajectory look like by the time he is 86 years old? There's not a person alive in the United States with half a functioning brain who believes that he will have a functioning brain by the time we get to year two of term two of his administration. That was the best line Nikki Haley said while campaigning. A vote for President Biden is a vote for President Harris. That's obviously true and more obvious than ever. All right. Now, before you go, divided states of Biden. I love this idea. So you're taking trips to

what swing states? what states are you going to trying to show just exactly what that means? Divided states of Biden are unifier. So we're basically going to all the sites in America where the issues are most relevant. So we went down to the southern border. We went down to the San Miguel Gate in Arizona to take a look at how open the border is. The answer wide open. That is a purposeful Joe Biden policy. That was episode one. Yesterday, we were actually in Kensington, which is a suburb of Philadelphia, which has been completely taken over

by fentanyl and trying to focus in on the fentanyl crisis. I've never seen anything remotely like it. It's the worst thing I've ever seen in the United States. It looks like something out of Mad Max. I mean, you're talking about just miles stretch of road

in which wall-to-wall people are just shooting up openly in the public, rotting flesh, lighting fires, hunched over because of what the drugs are doing to them. We saw probably two probable murder scenes in the course of maybe a 15-minute drive around that area. We also went over to Camden, New Jersey, to take a look at a place that was supposed to be cured of crime. By cured of crime, we mean it is still one of the highest crime areas in the United States. And there may be some stats that are getting covered up about all of that. This country is in serious and dire trouble. And Divided States of Biden is designed to highlight

each of these issues from a location where it's actually happening. So it's not just us in the studio talking about it. You can actually see the footage for yourself and see what it looks like on the ground in places where most of us aren't going to go. So Texas, New Jersey, Pennsylvania. So it sounds like you went to the red states, the blue states, but did you go to the green states? The rarely seen. You laugh so you don't cry. Looking forward to watching it. Yeah. I can't wait. Ben, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Take care of my friend. Thanks so much, Megan. All right, guys, don't forget, go to dailywire.com to sign up for that. You should just subscribe anyway. It's a great subscription. You know, not all the subscriptions are worth it. That one really is. You get so much extra content. You get behind the

scenes stuff with all your favorite people from The Daily Wire. I love it. I love just meandering around over there. And then every once in a while, they give you something great like this, which is an extra and worth your time and your cash. The media reaction coming in on Robert Furr's special report about Joe Biden is amazing. Boy, are they mad. Here's Keith Olbermann's take. The partisan hack appointed by Trump managed to turn his nothing burger investigation of Biden and the returned documents into Christmas for the fascists by inserting unwarranted, unjustifiable, indefensible medical opinions's the goddamned attorney general on this? Where did we get this asshole Merrick Garland? Because not having every fact right off the top of your head at all times is a reason for a Justice Department employee to put his schlong on the political scale and try to throw the election to the guy who plans to be a dictator. Thank you, Merrick Garland.

Resign. Joining me now to talk about the media's meltdown after this Robert Herr special report, the executive producer of The Megyn Kelly Show, Steve Krakauer. He's also a longtime media critic. He's got fourth watch. He writes a column for The Hill. All right, Steve, so you're doing double duty today

as you sometimes do for that. I mean, I mean, schlong. It's all about Robert Hurd schlong. I bet that wasn't your take in watching the event. Keith, I don't know where Keith's mind is these days. I have to say it's funny. We had Buck Sexton on yesterday talking about some media stories and how CNN has no interesting people that have unique takes on it.

And now listen to that from Keith. I mean, it's completely unhinged, but man, that is some, that is some interesting commentary from the former MSNBC host. That's fresh. You're not going to hear that anywhere else. And for good reason. So it's been amazing though, to watch like the people run to try to do some cover. There is a piece in the wall street journal today, an op-ed. The Wall Street Journal is obviously more right-leaning, but the opinion reads, this is Bill McKibben, age matters, which is why Biden's age is his superpower. It's all actually a big advantage to him, you see, because he's got the knowledge of several, several, several presidencies, and they have altered his judgment and made him swing big for the fences.

And all this petty stuff about memory is just something that everybody experiences. Oh, yes, yes. Actually, Los Angeles Times for this one, I've seen people share it and say this is why they're getting rid of one third of their newsroom. They're running stuff like this. No, I think that this is the logical next step for a media that's going to try to cover for Joe Biden. And I do think that there's a very real open question about what the corporate press does next. And I think what the corporate press does next is a real indication of what the Democratic Party and the apparatus

around Joe Biden wants to do next. You know, we've started to see a little bit of cracks in the seams there with an NBC News report that I thought was well done that really documented what actually is going to happen. But if they're going to really try to trot out this Joe Biden and continue down this path, I think that this is the avenue they're going to go, that Joe Biden is, yes, he's old, and even he admitted during that press conference, he's elderly. But wisdom, you know, what comes with age is real wisdom. And he's so much less bad than Donald Trump because he's not dangerous. You know, he's just a nice old man rather than a terrible old man who they have on the other side. So so I think that this is going to be the talking point if they choose

to go down this route. Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. That's it. That's what the special counsel said. Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. I mean, that's it's going to be the talking point if they choose to go down this route. Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. That's it. That's what the special counsel said. Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. I mean, that's it's going to go on bumper stickers for sure. At least that second part. So here's some more reaction. Matt Iglesias, Bloomberg columnist. This is fucking bullshit. You appoint a Republican special counsel to investigate. He investigates. His investigation does not reveal a crime. So instead of saying all good, he goes off and does partisan political hits. Tommy Veeder, former Obama staffer, now podcast host. Robert Herr clearly decided to go down the Jim Comey path of filing, filling his report, absolving President Biden of criminal activity with ad hominem attacks, like calling him an elderly man with a poor memory. Not remotely subtle, just a right wing hit job from within Biden's own DOJ.

Wild. And then there's the bit about October 8th and 9th when he sat. That's my favorite part of what happened yesterday. Right, right. They're going to try to find any possible way of doing this. You know, the the I have to say, it is kind of funny, though, to see the immediate defense as being that that the person attacked the Mueller report as that he was somehow partisan and it was all this witch hunt against him in an area that, you know, essentially, as Trump says, absolved him. Now we're seeing the reverse of it. But at the time, the media would not let that fly. Of course not. No, this is that's completely outrageous. How dare you attack a special counsel? This is an objective person.

Now it's somehow a, you know, this person is out to get Joe Biden. But I do think, though, that what, like I said, what happens next, there was this really interesting tweet that came out. This was before the Biden press conference, but after the report came out by Astrid Herndon of the New York Times. And this is someone who has, I would say he is one of these great reporters that I think he's great in the sense that he puts all his thoughts out on social media. He just puts it all out on X. And so it's kind of embarrassing and undermining because now we know what he really thinks when he's supposed to be an objective reporter.

But he did this during the, in 2021 when the Virginia governor race was coming out. Anyway, so he's very honest about it, to a fault, I think, for his organization. But he said that this is something that's clearly important, a non-Trump issue, important to the electorate, and that it is a White House and D.C. kind of establishment coziness gentleman's agreement to pretend like Biden's age and memory and competency is not an issue. And then he said, maybe that ends now. Yeah, I'd say so. And he got pushback from people like Chris Hayes on social media.

But he's absolutely right. It was a gentleman's agreement. Does that gentleman's agreement now go away? Because it's so embarrassing and potentially damaging for the Democrats in their fight with Donald Trump in 2024. That's the real question. And we're going to see that play out. We're going to see it play out on the Sunday shows on Sunday. How do they cover this? We're going to get a real sense of whether the media is going to turn on Biden and the agreement is sort of off at this point. The agreement is such a farce. It's not like the Kennedy years when he was cheating on his wife

and they chose not to report on those infidelities. This is whether he's capable of actually being the leader of the free world. He has access to the nuclear codes. There's no gentleman's agreement here. It's all street fighters. There's and that's, by the way, what the press is supposed to be anyway, challenging authority. I want to give the audience that we've done some good work on these soundbites, giving them reaction on like the crazy spin and meltdowns, the Rachel Maddow bike comment.

Take a listen to some flavor in Stop 14. Let's call it what it is. This is ageism snuck into a report clearing the person of any wrongdoing. If you want to get into the ageism, young people are told all the time by their lawyers, hey, you're way better off leaning into I don't recall than possibly misstating something to a federal officer. If someone says you're too far left, you can tack to the center. The man is 80 years old. He rides a bike. Oh my God. Okay. You're much better off saying I don't recall. About when your son died, how is that a helpful thing to dodge on about when you were vice president? That's like a matter of fact.

You're not going to be able to obfuscate on that. This is what an absurd attempt at defending him. That's exactly right. It's one thing to make that argument about the classified documents aspect of the special special counsel's report here. But as you laid out, the most damaging part about this is not going to be the fact that he wasn't criminally charged, but he still mishandled documents. And as I've seen another spin, by the way, from people like Jeffrey Toobin,

who suddenly showed up back on CNN last night for some reason, I don't know what was going on with that. He said, oh, every politician, not just presidents, vice presidents, everyone takes classified documents. This is a total nothing burger, as was proven there. Okay, sure. But what was put in there? The conversations about being vice president and not knowing when that was, 2009, 2013. I mean, it's absolutely insane. And those are the kinds of things that you can't get around.

These are the things that are not related to criminality, but are related to electability. And not everyone in the media is going to be MSNBC, which spun incredibly for about 10 minutes after the press conference ended, and then immediately changed the subject completely. They started talking about the Supreme Court and Colorado and all other kinds of... And CNN actually did almost the same thing. They were done with this press conference within about 10 or 15 minutes. Maybe they went back to it later on, but they quickly pivoted. And I think that that was very clear in the moment.

It might not be that way forever, but right then they were like, we've got to get out of this. This is bad. We were riveted. Our team was all, we all have a group text. All of us were texting each other like, oh, my God. And when he came back out, it was like, I wouldn't say he stuck the landing because the whole thing had been pretty disastrous for him. But it wasn't as bad as when he came back out and then just, I mean, the perfect cherry on top of the sundae, forgetting who the president of Egypt is.

Well, I mean, I guess he knows he's the president of Egypt, but he said he's the president. I'm not sure which he was confusing, but it was like, oh, you could just feel. And then he turned to walk back off. I don't know if you saw this, but he walked back off to like what was clearly an open door. You couldn't see the door. You could just see where he's going to walk. And there were like arms the way you do with your toddler. You have two little ones like, yeah, you're good. Come here, sweetheart. You're almost there. Two more steps. So close. Yeah. By the way, I saw a great defense. You know, Biden's, I guess it was communications director, Kate Benningfield, I believe her name is, is now a CNN contributor. And so immediately after the speech, you have a person who literally was spinning for Joe Biden's

administration just a few months ago. Now she's acting like a pundit. And they say that she did work for Joe Biden. But come on. By the way, she spun that as look at the substantive answer he gave on Israel and Gaza. And now we're just going to focus – it's on us that we're going to focus on the fact that he said Mexico instead of Egypt. But really, he's so engaged and has so much – I mean, that's like it's I mean, that's that's the new spin. Yes, he's it's what we call part of a pattern, part of a pattern, man. The New York Times headline in fiery remarks. President Biden hit back against a special counsel's claims that he mishandled classified files and has memory problems.

That's the headline. Fiery remarks in which he hit back. That's not it. That is not it. I saw several headlines that described it as defiant. Yes, he was defiant. And Republicans pounced. Right. Oh, yeah. Of course. Immediately, the next day story. People are going to pounce on this. And that is actually probably, now that you say it, probably where the media goes. I think if we're looking this time next week, how do we remember it? If, again, the caveat, if we really think the Democratic establishment is going to continue trotting out Joe Biden, yeah, it's going to be the overreaction to it. What Republicans start to talk about the 25th Amendment, how dare they compare that to Donald Trump? We saw people like Dan Goldman already spinning this. How dare you, the media,

focus on these little gaffes when you've got someone like Donald Trump who's going to destroy democracy if he's put in office in 2025? So I do think that that's kind of the next step of it. But what's amazing about this, the reporting is that Biden's staff believes that the best version of him is when he's angry, is when he's fighting. And that is what they hope to do. Now, we don't know, as Ben talked about in the last segment, whether he overrode his staff and said, I want to do it right now, rather than maybe sitting back, maybe doing it this afternoon, waiting a little bit of time, thinking more through. But they believe that it's the way to combat the kind of confused,

a little bit, you know, walking on eggshells, Joe Biden, is to get him angry. They think that's their best version. That's their best hope. I'm not sure that's true. Not it. Here's an example that Dan Goldman, he's very unhappy. It's not 22. It's wrong to think that because President Biden made a simple incidental mistake that everyone understood what he was referring to, that that has anything to do with his mental acuity. And especially when you're now trying to compare him to another elderly man who is charged with four indictments, who doesn't believe that the law applies to him and makes all these mistakes. Nancy Pelosi, Nikki Haley, you know, Donald Trump makes more mistakes on this stuff than than Joe Biden does. And for some reason, the media doesn't want to focus on that. But he is a danger to our country. There it is. I mean, exactly what you just said. And that's another this is another element to the media story as well, because there will be a big pushback on places like X, other public platforms, even on places like CNN

on the air to kind of, I don't want to say bully the media, but by the left to say, you know, how dare you go this route? And will they hold strong? Will they actually do it? I think we saw this with Fetterman, for example, you know, during the campaign, we look at the Dasha Burns pushback that she got for daring to tell the truth about what it was like talking to John Fetterman. Will they be bullied out of covering Joe Biden and even the special counsel report in a way that gets them to back off? I think that there's going to be an effort to do that. Whether they actually hold strong will remain to be seen. I mean, it's going to be very hard for them to bail on it because we're going to have more and more and more examples. I mean, it's like that's that's why

this resonates. It's why 77 percent of the population feels the way they do. We're going to get more. I bet they're going to get more egregious. Look at that montage for people didn't watch the show yesterday. Go go check check it out on YouTube and podcasts. Cause we, we saw this coming. We had all the montages of Joe Biden over the years to watch the quick deterioration deterioration. It's only going to get worse. This stuff only goes in one direction. I got to go. Cause Steve Krakauer is telling me it's time for a break. It's great to see you. Thank you. And I'll see you. I'll have you in my ear in a minute. Uh, okay. We're not done. Jeffrey Epstein's brother is up next. I'll see you. I'll have you in my ear in a minute. Okay. We're not done. Jeffrey Epstein's brother is up next. I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM. It's your home for

open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today. You can catch the Megan Kelly show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love great people like dr laura i'm back nancy grace dave ramsey and yours truly megan kelly you can stream the megan kelly show on serious xm at home or anywhere you are no car required i do it all the time i love the serious xm app it ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free. Go to SiriusXM.com slash MK show to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com

slash MK show and get three months free. Offer details apply. Now we dive into the mystery surrounding one of the most infamous unsolved deaths in U.S. prison, the death of Jeffrey Epstein. Sure, they say it's solved, but is it? Today, Jeffrey Epstein's only surviving immediate family member, Mark Epstein, joins us. Mark, by his own admission, was not involved in his brother's day-to-day life, but he spoke with him the night before he was arrested and has been fighting now for years to find out the truth about his brother's death. After Jeffrey's death in August of 2019, a chief medical examiner who did not conduct the autopsy deemed his death a suicide. She did not conduct the autopsy, but there has been speculation ever since, as you know, that there's much more to this story. We're going to discuss it all. Mark will share a new

exclusive picture with us of Jeffrey. We want to warn you, we're going to show pictures from Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy. This is not for any sort of prurient value. It's because they actually may be relevant to how he died and they may be disturbing to you. Joining us now, Mark Epstein. He's not appearing on camera as is his want because he wants to keep his identity private and maintain some of his anonymity. You can understand that. Mark, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. And thank you for your interest in looking into this. Yeah, of course. I mean, from the beginning, we've been fascinated by it like so many Americans have been. And let me give you the floor to just walk us through. Give us the elevator pitch on why you do not believe your brother killed himself. Well, let me first start off by saying that when I found out that he was dead,

I heard it on CNN. So the government didn't notify me as they've claimed in their report. I heard it on television. And at first, I just assumed that, well, I had no reason to doubt it, and that he decided to kill himself. So I respected that as his decision. He didn't have any children. Our parents are gone. He would know he didn't have to worry about me. He had no other close relatives. So I just assumed that that was the case. But then the next day, they performed the autopsy. And just as a precaution, I had hired Dr. Barton came out of the autopsy saying that they could not call this a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. And, you know, make it clear that

there's nobody who has more experience with prison deaths than Dr. Barton. And he said he's never seen these results, these like three broken bones in Jeffrey's neck from a suicidal hanging like this. So then the questions became, you know, if he didn't commit suicide, then he was killed. And then who killed him? How was it done? So these questions started coming up. And then Attorney General Barr came out publicly and said a real asinine statement. He said that he saw, he personally saw the videotape of the camera that was on outside of the tier where you could see the tier door going into where.

Explain tier. Oh, that's the floor where Jeff's cell was. You go into a door and it's a corridor with four cells on either side of that corridor. And at the far end of that corridor, there's a camera that faces towards the door. So anything that takes place on that tier, you know, outside of the cells, could be viewed by that camera. Well, miraculously, that camera was not functioning that night. But the camera outside of the tier, which showed the door, and it's also that showed that the guards were not doing their jobs. They were surfing the net or napping.

That camera was working. So Bill Barr referred to that camera, saying that he saw that nobody went in or out of the tier. So that convinced him it was a suicide. And when I heard him make that statement, I thought, he's either dumbest guy on the planet or he's covering something up because for two reasons. One, to presume that somebody could get to that door, go in undetected, you know, kill somebody and go out and leave undetected is ridiculous because there are six levels of security before you get to that tier. This was the maximum security place in the prison. So that didn't make any sense. And then when he said he personally saw the videotape, watched the videotape, I thought, but this is the Attorney General of the United States.

Could I see him sitting by a monitor watching a night's worth of videotape to see that nobody went in or out? Couldn't he have people in his office watch the videotape and just say nobody went in or out? So when I heard that he personally watched the videotape and he concluded that it was a suicide because nobody went in or out, I said, this is bullshit if I'm allowed to say that on air. You were hurt.

Because there were, I think, 11 other prisoners on that tier in the cells that could have killed him. Cause I heard early on in my investigations, I heard through somebody from a kind of reliable source that cell doors were left unlocked. So if cell doors were left unlocked, I don't know how many or which ones, but somebody could have gone out, killed him, went back into his cell, and that's how it was done. So I've been trying to find out who were the 11 prisoners on that ward? Because if Jeff was killed, it had to be by one of them. So who are they? How long were they there for? And where are they today? Can't get answers to any of it.

From whom are you trying to get those answers? Well, from the government. Me and other media people have been putting out requests for this kind of information. Also, we know that the camera outside of the tier was functioning, because that's the one Bill Barr referred to, we can't get the footage that's been asked a number of times of when they took Jeff off of that tier, when they took his body off of that tier and brought him to the infirmary. Where's the footage from that period of time? That doesn't seem to be available. Do they explain why they won't release that to you

and why they won't release the prisoner names to you? No. But when I did sit down with Justice Department people a few months after the death, all I got from them for every question I asked was like when somebody pleads the fifth, you know, to 400 questions with the same answer. That's what it was like, every question. Now, the question becomes what thorough investigation? You know, like the EMTs that responded to the call, that you saw them in the newspaper pictures of them wheeling Jeff out, you know, they would never question. And they themselves found that extremely odd because they've been involved with other high profile cases.

And they've stated they're always brought in, you know, sat down and questioned about what took place. They said on this case, they have not been questioned. The hospital personnel where Jeff was taken were never questioned. And there were so many sort of rules that were violated here. First of all, when they found Jeff in his cell dead, he had been dead for at least two hours. We know that from the autopsy result, because the mark that was left in his neck, which you can see in the photograph, for that mark to be embedded in his neck that way and dried like that, he had to be dead for at least two hours. Could have been six hours, but a minimum of two. So when they found him, he was clearly dead. He wasn't revivable. He should not have been moved. The medical examiner said it should

have been cool. Yeah, that's very key. I'm just going to interrupt you one second, just to tell the audience, we are going to show the picture of Jeff and the mark on his neck that you're referring to. This is the first time anybody's seen this publicly. So keep going, Mark. I'm sorry I interrupted you. They should not have moved them because also when they find a dead body, you know, the position of the body, there's a lot of information they can get from that. That's why they tell you to, you know, never move a dead body if you find a dead body. Just get the authorities.

Let the coroner come. Because what happens when you die and you're laying there for at least an hour or two, the blood in your body settles down from gravity because it's no longer being pumped through your system. So it seeps through the tissue. So the lowest parts of your body by the floor turn like purplish. You get a blotchiness. It's called lividity. It's from the blood pooling under the skin. So if they find a dead body, for instance, laying on its stomach, but on the back, you have this purplish blotchy

lividity. Well, they know that the body's been moved. It means the person died on their back and was on their back for a while, and then they were moved and turned over. So that's why you're not supposed to move a dead body. Now, if you read the Justice Department report, which only has one page about Jeff's death, they described the way he was hanging. They said that he was in a seated position, and you have to picture this.

He was in a seated position with his legs extended out in front of him, and he was hanging from his neck, right, a thing around his neck, from the top bunk of the bunk beds. And when they cut him down, his buttocks was about an inch or an inch and a half off the ground. Okay, so if you picture that- Can I just ask you, because I've heard you say that before. I don't understand that. If they cut him down, how could he still have been hanging? Well, they said they found him hanging and then they cut him down to get him out of it. Right, but why would his buttocks be on the floor? Like, why wouldn't he be?

Well, because they were saying his buttocks were, because he was hanging and the thing around his neck was holding him off the ground. It was holding him up. But in this version, they've cut him down. Well, after they found him, he's been dead for a couple of hours hanging like that. But they said when they cut him down, his buttocks were off the ground. And then they cut him down. And he came down the inch and inch and a half. Okay, so when they found him and he was hanging the buttocks were an inch and a half off the ground and then they cut him down i got it okay so now if you picture that and he's been hanging for at least two hours like it could have been six hours but at least two

you would expect to find the lividity the blood pooling in his buttocks and especially in the back of his legs because that was the lowest point. And that's where the blood would settle. But the autopsy photos, I have other autopsy photos, shows that his legs were clear and his buttocks were clear. There is some lividity on his back. We're looking at some now. We don't see the back of his legs in this photo, but certainly we can see the legs. I just sent you the photo of his neck. Right. But the photographs don't show that. And there is some lividity on his back,

but if he was only dead for two hours and then they laid him down, that lividity on his back could have come afterwards. So that's not conclusive. But the fact that his legs are clear, even if they laid him down, the blood would not have drained up from his legs into his back unless he was hung upside down.

So the fact that his legs and buttocks are clear from lividity leads doubt to the fact that he was found the way they described. So wait, so let's just put a point on it so people don't have to figure it out. So what you're saying is you don't believe that he was killed, obviously, in the manner that they're telling us, and that if he had really hanged himself, there would have been lividity underneath his legs and in the buttocks from the way he was found hanging, hanging almost in a seated position just off the ground. And there wasn't any. So is there a working theory of if it were a murder, how this evidence does make sense, how there, why wasn't there lividity in the back of the legs? Well, it's because he probably was not hanging the way they say. Because if he was hanging the way they said,

there'd be evidence of lividity in his legs and buttocks. And on that photo you gave us, Mark, is that of the autopsy and the mark around the neck. I'm not an expert in this, but it certainly looks to me, I have a hard time as a lay person understanding how a sheet made that mark. Maybe we can put it back up so people can see it. As opposed to, it looks almost more like a garrote was used or some sort of rope, wire. What did Dr. Hutton say about that? Well, yeah. Well, when they came out of the autopsy, both doctors said it looks more like what's called a ligature strangulation. That's where,

like a garage, where you go behind and you pull something tight along somebody's neck. The other reason I sent the photograph, because again, picture the way they described he was hanging. His body was off the ground, right? His buttocks were off the ground and his legs were extended in front of him. So there was probably some weight on his feet, on the lower part of his legs, but the bulk of his body weight was hanging by the neck from supposedly the top bunk. If that's the case,

and you could find photographs of people hanging, you know, from old lynching photographs or wartime photographs, you know, from old lynching photographs or war time photographs. You know, the ligature, the thing around the neck, goes high up under the chin and comes up behind the ears. That makes sense. So it's high up under the chin. Yeah. And if you look at the picture, I mean, I don't have the video.

I can't see exactly what you're showing right now. But from that picture, the ligature mark on his neck is more in the middle of his neck and sort of goes straight back. Yeah. So again, if he was hanging- It doesn't look like it's got an upward trajectory. I mean, maybe a tiny, tiny bit, but not like you would expect in a hanging.

Yeah, in a hanging, it goes really high up in the front of your neck because you sink down into that noose, the ligature, whatever was used. And it goes really tight up under your chin and back behind your ears if it's in the middle of your neck. So it's again, this is not the way his body was found or the way he was described, the way he was found is not backed up by the autopsy evidence. A couple of questions about the autopsy in Baden, who I know and love. You brought him in. And was there any direction given by you to him? Like, there's no way this was a suicide, you know,

wink, wink. Or, you know, what how did you speak to Dr. Baden about his task? He was brought in because as, you know, the next of kin, I have the right to have my own pathologist witness the autopsy. And if I want to do, if there was a need to do a second autopsy, once the body is claimed, we could take the body to somewhere else and do a second autopsy if necessary. But Bonin used to be the chief medical examiner of New York. So he's very well respected. So when they came out of the autopsy, he said that they did whatever he asked them to do through the autopsy. So he said there was no need to do a second autopsy. And both he and, again, it wasn't Biden's autopsy. It was Dr. Roman's autopsy. She was the pathologist. But what was his mission as you gave it to him?

See what happened. You were open-minded. Completely open-minded. Like I said, I had assumed that this was a suicide because that's what I heard. And I had no reason to doubt it initially. But, and I, I expected them to come out of the autopsy saying that, yeah, this is a suicide and, you know, case closed. Believe me, my life would have been a lot easier if that's what took place. I would have, you know, case closed. Believe me, my life would have been a lot easier if that's what took place. I would have, you know, had to deal with losing a brother, which, you know, you deal with. I've lost my parents and other close people. So you deal with death. You get over that. And it would have been and that was four and a half years ago. You know, so it would

have been history. But it came out. They both came out saying they can't call it a suicide. And on the death certificate, the initial death certificate, because you needed that certificate to claim the body, where it said cause of death, they wrote pending further study. Now, Dr. Bonin has said that when it says pending further study, it usually takes weeks to do a complete study. But two days later or whatever, Bill Barr came out with that ridiculous statement. You know, now, first of all, he was not the one to declare it a suicide. It was a medical examiner. He said a parent suicide.

A parent suicide. But he shouldn't make that call. And then the chief medical examiner, who, again, did not see the body, she claims it's a suicide based on what? What investigation? Was she the first one to say, so the person who actually did the autopsy says pending. Dr. Bodden was there and says pending. Then Bill Barr says apparent suicide, which could mean nothing. Could be, I heard some news reports that suggest looks like a suicide, but that's a little further than pending.

And then the boss of the woman who did the actual autopsy, that's the one who came out. She was the first one to say it was a suicide. Yeah. Now, did Bob say a parent? I thought he said it convinced him it was a suicide. We made the remarks and he said a parent. There's nothing on camera. He says some things about how the facility was irregular and we'll play that for you, but we couldn't, but when we saw his remarks, what we, what we pulled was apparent suicide. And to me, it looks like the, the Dr. Kristen Romans was the one who conducted the autopsy and Dr. Barbara Sampson, who's the chief medical examiner, who I assume is Roman's boss, she's the one who came out and said she changed it from pending to suicide

and she never touched the body. She never examined the body. It seems like she's basing it on what Dr. Roman did. But Dr. Roman couldn't make a determination. Also, what I've been told is that, you know, there had been a claim that Jeff had tried to commit suicide a couple of weeks before and that Barbara Sampson might have changed. Yeah, she might have made her determination using that as part of her basis. But the fact is that he did not try to commit suicide prior.

And we'll get to that one second. Here's Bill Barr's statement. We pulled it. He writes, quote, I was appalled to learn that Jeffrey Epstein was found dead early this morning from an apparent suicide while in federal custody. Mr. Epstein's death raises serious questions that must be answered.

In addition to the FBI's investigation, I have consulted with the inspector general who is opening an investigation into the circumstances of Mr. Epstein's death. The audience should know that that inspector general did go on to later release a report in June of 2023 saying they too were concluding suicide with more information. And one of the key pieces of information that the suicide proponents cite is the thing you just touched on, which is that Jeff, they believe, they say, attempted a suicide while in custody shortly before this alleged suicide. But you also have questions about that. So let's talk about that. It was about, was it June? Hold on. I've

got my dates in front of me. Can we go back to one thing? Because when Boba made the public statement that I'm referring to, he said that he personally saw the videotape and nobody went in or out of the tier. And that convinced him it was a suicide. Do you have that clip? Let's see. We have that from his book. Yes, there's some of that in his book.

I'm not talking about his book. I'm not talking about what he changed for his book. I'm talking about what he said publicly on television. That he personally saw the videotape and he convinced him it was his suicide. I'm not sure we cut that.

That could be. And was that the day after in your recollection? It was within a couple of days, yeah. I don't remember the exact day. But I'm pretty convinced that I remembered that correctly. Because that's why I said he's the dumbest fuck on it was, yeah, but I'm pretty convinced that I remembered that correctly. That he, because that's why I said,

he's the dumbest fuck on the planet, if that's what he thinks. That's the thought that went through my head. Right, based on the videotape of nobody coming onto the tier. Right, any third rate investigator will tell you that if he was killed, he was killed by somebody already on the tier. So for him to be convinced because nobody

went in and out again, I said, either he's the dumbest, you know, on the planet, or this is a coverup. And that's what started the ball rolling to look into this. And we haven't even touched on, and I do want to get to the alleged other suicide attempt, but we haven't yet touched on the number of things that would have had to go wrong or right, depending on your viewpoint on the cell block that night for this thing to go off the way it did. I mean, the, the two guards who were in charge say, Oh, you know what? We just didn't make our rounds. Uh, the cameras that would have caught anything like this just happened to stop working like within a matter of days before the alleged suicide.

It was like one thing after another that happened to work, you know, as I say, in Jeffrey's favor, if he really did want to commit suicide, or in a murderer's favor, if they wanted to murder him and not be caught. And the stuff on the cell block was very suspicious. Yes, but let me interject something there. The two guards that we know about, you know, Tova Noel and Michael Thomas.

First of all, Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night. Now, the tier was locked up about roughly 10 o'clock at night, the night before. So Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night. And he's the one who found Jeff in the morning when he went to serve breakfast or something, about 6 something in the morning. OK, so there's never just one god there and it was mentioned in the early paperwork early stories that when they locked up the cell when tova noel was there there was also an unnamed god number one and an unnamed god number two were mentioned so the question becomes who was unnamed guard number one? And who was unnamed

guard number two? Who are they? Where are they today? Were they actually prison guards? Or was there somebody put in to maybe leave cell doors unlocked? So why are these people unnamed when we know Tova Noel and Michael Thomas's name? So who were they? Yeah, yet another piece of the mystery and the thing about the cameras mark i mean correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding is they went down uh it's as of july 29th and he died it was august 10th right august 10th july 29th uh the psychology department determined that Jeff could return to the tier where he'd been held. And that same day, the camera issues began. The live feed worked, but the recording did not work for several of the cameras.

I mean, this was literally less than two weeks before he would die. That, I mean, that is a massive red flag for me, just personally. It just happens to be that the cameras stop working the day he gets transferred back onto the unit. What do you make of that? Well, it's a red flag for you and everybody else who has half a brain.

I mean, it's, yeah. I mean, this is the maximum security prison and they have cameras that are not working. It's just, you know, I understand it's an inefficient place and there's problems, but this sort of doesn't pass the laugh test. So let's talk about the alleged earlier suicide attempt because he died on August 10th. But on July 23rd, by the way, just so the audience can stay with us. It was July 6th, 2019, that Epstein was arrested at New Jersey Teterboro Airport, charged with sexual abuse and sex trafficking. July 22nd, the appeals court issued an order denying him release. And the 23rd of July, he was found in his cell with an orange cloth around his neck and placed on suicide watch. Around 1.27 in the morning, the staff heard noises coming from

his cell. His cellmate, all we know is inmate one, said Epstein attempted to hang himself. Epstein initially told staff that it was the cellmate who tried to kill him. And the cellmate says, not true. I was asleep. I felt something hit my legs. When I turned on the light, I saw Epstein with a string around his neck and called the guards. Epstein was placed on suicide watch. And then when interviewed by the office of inspector general, another inmate housed in the same tier, inmate two, at the time of this incident said, I did hear inmate one call for assistance. And inmate one call for assistance and inmate one later told me Epstein had tried to kill himself. That person didn't actually see it, but that's

what he said, bolstering inmate one's testimony that he didn't have anything to do with the first attempt. Epstein told a staffer that he thought his cellmate had tried to kill him and further stated the cellmate had tried to extort him and that for the last week, his cellmate had tried to kill him and further stated the cellmate had tried to extort him and that for the last week, his cellmate had threatened to beat him if he did not pay him money. And that Epstein said he had not reported this to the staff, but he had told his lawyers. So then, then we see this alleged suicide attempt. So these two are arguing over what it was. And this, the people who don't believe this was a suicide say, look, the people who do believe that this was a suicide say he tried it. I believe the other inmate that he did not attack him because Epstein's story was kind

of all over the board on that. Later on, he went on to say, actually, I have no memory whatsoever of what happened that night. And so let's believe the inmate who does remember who says Epstein did try to kill himself on that first attempt, July 23rd. OK, that's a lot. Mark, what do you make of all that? It's no secret that inmate number one that you're referring to is to tag Leone and Nicholas to tag Leone, who is in prison for quadruple murder, which he has since been convicted of the four murders. He actually killed one by strangulation. So was Jeffrey being extorted? I believe he was being extorted. I believe he was paying money to protect. I don't know for a fact because it wasn't through me, but I believe he was paying money for benefits or perks there, protection. And when Jeffrey said he didn't remember what happened,

I laughed at that. Jeffrey was a very smart guy. He's not going to forget what happened. And from what his attorneys say is that he was attacked by his roommate, his cellmate, and he didn't want to report it as such because he was afraid of retaliation. As simple as that.

That makes perfect sense to me. What about the fact that Jeffrey ultimately said, this is from the OIG, I think report is where we got this, that he said as of July 25th through the 29th, when he went to the psychology department, that he denied being suicidal, but then also said, I have no memory of what occurred on July 23rd. And again, went on to say, I have no interest in killing myself. But why would he back off of, you know, I don't remember anything

that happened in that cell that night. Because he was afraid that he'd be, that the guy would come after him. He was afraid of retaliation. Remember, he was locked up in a prison, a small place with these very dangerous people. But then, Mark, the weird thing would be, apparently, he then asked two different staffers if he could be housed with that same inmate one who he had said tried to kill him.

So that's a point in the other side's favor, no? I haven't heard that before. So I question that. Okay. But this is, yeah, there's a lot of things I question that don't make sense. Whether he tried to kill himself, which I don't believe, and he told his lawyer that he didn't try to kill himself. And I believe he was straight with his lawyer. And the fact that he says he didn't remember, to me, that's a red flag. How could you not remember that? He said he didn't remember because that's a way to end the questioning, to just let things lie. He was afraid of retaliation.

Yes, this is from the Inspector General report out of the DOJ that he allegedly asked two different staffers if he could be housed with that same cellmate, inmate one, who he had said tried to kill him on July 23rd. That doesn't make sense. I've never heard that before, but that doesn't make sense. I question that. No, it doesn't. That's really true. Yeah. I mean, we don't know. This is based on their investigation. And if he didn't kill himself, there is at least the possibility, of course, this is the obvious suggestion,

that the government is working in tandem with somebody to cover it up or may have actually killed him through some agent for some reason themselves. And so that's what I believe. Put a ton of stock into the report because it's coming out of the DOJ, the same DOJ that Bill Barr was the AG of, the same DOJ in charge when Jeffrey died, so on. This is sort of in the, we don't believe it was suicide, we believe it was a murder,

and we believe the government's covering it up lane. Look, in this thorough investigation that you're talking about, this DOJ report that comes out, there's no mention that the initial death certificate said pending further study. They don't refer to that. They just said it was declared a suicide by a chief medical examiner. If this was a thorough report, wouldn't you mention that it was first undetermined and then after some further study, which is undescribed, it was declared a suicide.

That should be, if it was a thorough investigation, that would be mentioned. You know, another issue, I don't know if you want to get to it now, the question about the upcoming bail hearing after the suicide. I'm not sure if you're aware of that. Yeah, yeah. That he had another one coming. So this is one of your points. Why would he hang himself when he still had another bite at the apple of getting out?

Yeah. When Jeff was first arrested, his attorneys called me and asked me if I would participate in his bail, because if other people participate, you're more likely to get bail if other people have stuff at risk. So I said, sure. I said, put up my house in Florida. You know, I knew Jeff wasn't a flight risk. And he was my brother. I said, yeah, sure. Help him. And that's when I became sort of public. Most people didn't know Jeff had a brother. You know, we had we lived different lives. We were always in communication with each other, but we didn't spend time together. So people didn't know me. And then all the journalists all over the planet started looking into, well, who's his brother? and they started trying to find dirt on me

and then once they realized they couldn't find dirt on me then they all contacted me because they wanted me to help them with their stories or their movies or their books i find that kind of comical but um okay so but so we know he didn't get bail okay and then a few weeks later his attorneys called me up again. And what happened was Jeffrey was putting up, you know, his house in New York, I think his jets, he was putting up a very large amount of assets for bail. So his attorneys called me and they asked me if I would guarantee his entire bail, in essence, doubling it. Plus, he had another friend that was participating by putting up something. I'm not sure what the value was. They asked me if I would guarantee his bail.

Now, I googled it at the time. And at that point in time, the highest bail in the United States was $100 million. Someone had put up $100 million for bail. Jeffrey was putting up close to that, I believe. And with me doubling it, this would have been by far the highest bail ever in the United States. Now, as unpalatable as it might have been for some people for Jeffrey to get bail, well, he might have gotten bail with such a huge bail at risk. You know, because everyone's entitled to bail

if they could put stuff up and they deem not to be a flight risk. So Jeff had a hearing scheduled for this appeal on the bail decision coming up in a few days. So. Well, on top of that, Mark, he also hadn't been convicted. I mean, he had a prior experience years earlier where he got in trouble for some of these alleged behaviors and he got a good deal and got out of it with, you know, what critics would say is a slap on the wrist. So you could make the argument he had good reason to believe, even if he didn't receive bail, he he could pull a rabbit out of a hat when actually at trial yet again. Is there any. I don't think I don't think he was looking to pull a rabbit out of a hat when actually at trial yet again? I don't think he was looking to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

I believe what his defense was going to be primarily is that when he got in trouble back in 2006 or seven, whenever that was, and he made that deal, part of that deal was that he had a non-prosecution agreement with the federal government. Double jeopardy. Yeah, that's right. He agreed. They agreed that he or other people wouldn't be prosecuted on this anymore. So that's why he was taken by surprise when he was rearrested, you know, in 2019.

And that was going to be his defense. And it's from the lawyer's point of view, it's a pretty good defense. And then when they started saying, well, this was a different part of the government. Well, you know, as far as I'm concerned, we have one government in the United States. And if you make a deal with the U.S. government, that carries you from Hawaii to Alaska. You know, it's just everywhere you go. I mean, for me, it's like he didn't, he didn't, it's not like he had been found guilty. You know, he had just been arrested. This was a few weeks after he was arrested. He hadn't, there had been no trial. He hadn't lost on, you know, he had just been arrested. This was a few weeks after he was arrested. He hadn't been no trial. He hadn't lost on, you know, the big motions yet. Just seems like a little early

in the process for him to be saying it's over. Um, or was it, you know, we just don't know what, what he knew, but can we spend a minute talking about the bones in the neck? Cause that also to me was something that was very compelling. And what Dr. Bodden said, and the quote was, quote, I've never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging, going over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York city state prisons over the past 40 to 50 years, no one had three fractures, but Jeff did. So can you explain that a bit? Yeah. Well, first, Biden is speaking from experience. I don't know if you're old enough to remember the Attica riots from the Attica prison back, I think it was in the 70s. But

after that happened, Governor Rockefeller set up a special commission to investigate prison deaths. And Dr. Biden was on that commission. And Dr. Biden is was on that commission. And Dr. Barton is still on that commission. So for the last basically 50 years, just about all of the prison deaths in New York City and New York State prisons, Barton has done the autopsy. So there's nobody with more experience than him when it comes to this stuff. Yeah, so the suicidal hanging he's talking about is these like soft hangings. It's where you tie something, you know, around your neck, and you hang yourself, and you sit down, and it cuts off your blood, and you pass out, and you die.

You know, like, unfortunately, Robin Williams killed himself that way, or Dane killed himself that way. So it's a soft hanging, as opposed to a hard hanging, is where you sort of stand on a chair, and then you kick the chair out, and you really come plummeting down. That's sort of like like Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption, if you saw that movie. So especially on soft hanging, you don't break bones because you're just basically squeezing. You know, it goes around your neck. It squeezes your carotid arteries.

So the blood isn't going to your brain enough and you black out and then you eventually die. So that usually doesn't break bones you break bones when either they can squeeze the neck and break the neck or as military people have told me the way they sort of quietly kill people the way you see in the movies is they'll give you a karate chop to the front of your neck and then they'll usually twist your neck on break your neck and kill you you can't do that in the prison thing but the karate chop to the front of the neck it crushes your windpipe sort of discombobulates you incapacitates you to make you less likely to be able to fight back when they quickly try to kill you so the broken bones in jeffrey's neck more resemble uh the result of a

hard karate chop to the neck. So, I mean, looking at all this evidence, to me, it seems like he was killed that way. He was given a karate chop to the neck and then strangled with a cord or something. Because in his room, he had a CPAP machine that had an electric cord on it. And the cord from the CPAP machine

looks more like the neck result, like you mentioned before. It doesn't look like that was caused by a sheep. Was that ever examined, the cord? No, as far as we know, nothing's been examined. You know, when Bill Barr calls it a suicide, then the investigation stops because there's nothing to investigate in a suicide.

If I tell you that somebody committed suicide, there's usually one question that comes up. And that question is, how did they do it? Right? Because there's many ways to kill yourself. So like if you walk into a room and somebody's hanging from a sprinkler pipe, well, they hung themselves. If you walk into a room and someone's laying on the floor with his head blown open, there's a gun in his hand, well, he shot himself. You know, if you're on the sidewalk, if somebody splattered on the ground, they jumped out of a window or off a roof. So the answer to the one question is usually readily available. How'd they kill himself? Well, he hung himself, he shot himself, he jumped out of a window, case closed. So that's why there's been no investigation, because if they determine it's a suicide,

there's nothing to investigate. And it does make you wonder why there are no pictures that were taken. Why was the body cut down? Why was the body, when we see- But I have to stop you there. In the hospital, in a different outfit. Yeah, go ahead. when we see in the hospital in a different outfit. But I have to stop you because you said there's no pictures. When he was in the prison infirmary and in the hospital, I've been told this by people who were there,

that they had a handheld video camera taping everything from the infirmary to the hospital. Where's the tapes on those from that video camera? Those have never been released to you? No, no. Wow. And why wouldn't, I just think in today's day and age, you got Jeffrey Epstein hanging to death in his cell. You take a picture, like you understand, especially if your guard had just screwed up, my God, I'm going to need to document this. I mean, maybe there was just a complete panic and it's as they say, they had screwed up and they just cut down the body and tried to get him to

the infirmary. But you've pointed out the pictures that we have, I think of him in the hospital, he's wearing a hospital gown and he arrived there by everybody's admission, dead, dead for hours. So who takes him out of his prison jumpsuit and dresses a corpse? That's bizarre too. Well, I think he was cut out of the prison, because they showed the prison shorts and shirt cut. So I think they took that off of him in the prison infirmary. OK, but but again, who dresses a dead body in a hospital gown? Either you put him in a body bag or on a gurney to cover it by a sheet.

So somebody actually took the dead guy's arms and put him through the hospital gown. It's the kind of gown that you put on from the front and it ties in the back. I got a photograph of him in a hospital, wearing a hospital gown. Also, he was dead for at least two hours. We know that.

That wasn't a mystery. That's not a mystery. That's proven by the photograph you have there, that Mark left in his neck would not have stayed in his neck if he wasn't dead for at least two hours. If I take a rope and strangle somebody or anybody, I'm not a killer, but if you put a rope around somebody's neck and strangle them like that, and then you just let them lay there, the mark on his neck will flatten out because you have internal cell pressure. The skin is still supple. It won't leave a groove in your neck that way. Even if it was just tied on for a minute or two, the skin will flatten out. But for that groove to stay in his neck, that means he was dead for at least two hours.

I mean, that's the kind of work that forensic pathologists do. They know this stuff. And that's why they easily determine he was dead for at least two hours. So, I mean, there's still more questions around this whole thing than there are answers. And one wonders whether it'll always be that way. Can I just zoom out for it since I have you here, Mark? And can you just tell us, like, one of the big questions about Jeffrey Epstein is how he actually made all that money, right? Because I know a lot of people who are on Wall Street or covering Wall Street would say that everybody,

like a lot of people thought he was a fraud because they couldn't see how he made his money. And yet you looked at the huge town home, you looked at the island, his jet. Okay, it must not be a fraud because he's definitely making money. But the question was, how? Do you know the answer to that?

Well, Jeffrey started on Wall Street back in the 70s when Wall Street was really corrupt. And he learned how to make money. You know, I was not involved in that business. But a story I tell some people, I remember when we were young men still living at home and Jeffrey was working on Wall Street. He came home one day and he told me that, and this is a quote, he said, if the general population knew what was taking place on Wall Street, there this is a quote, he said, if the general population knew what was taking place on Wall Street, there'd be a revolution in this country. That's a direct

quote that Jeffrey told me back in the 70s, because there was so much corruption going on. He started telling me how people were making money illegally and all kinds of things that people were doing. So he knew the system, he knew the games. I wasn't involved in his business, exactly where he made his money, I'm not sure. Other people have told me he was really good at currency trading. So, you know, I don't know. What line of work are you in, Mark? I started off years ago in the printing business.

I had a silk screen printing businesses and then switched over to real estate. And I've been retired for a long time. I do a lot of work with nonprofit organizations now. You guys weren't in close touch, you say, you know, before he died or for the, I think I heard you say someplace seven years or so, but like when you talked to him, did you, did he like, give us a feel for what he was like? Did he seem like a happy guy? Did he seem like an unhappy, like what, you know, we of course have this picture of him. He was a very happy guy.

He had all the money he needed to do whatever he wanted. He had people around him that facilitated whatever he wanted to do. He had great homes, nice jets and stuff. Yeah, he was an extremely happy guy. He had everything he wanted. When you heard about the arrest, I'm sure you'd heard about the arrest 10 years earlier, but when you heard about this arrest in July of 19, were you shocked? Did you immediately say this is a bunch of lies or did you believe it? Tell us your reaction.

Well, I first heard that he was arrested. His attorneys called me that day after he was arrested and told me he was arrested. And I didn't really know what to think of it. I didn't know what the charges were. I wasn't involved with his day-to-day stuff. And from what I understand, the charges stem back from the old days. I don't think he's been accused of doing anything.

Once he got out of jail back in 2008 or whenever that was, I don't think any charges were related to anything after that period of time. I mean, when he first got in trouble, he called me to talk to me, and he told me that he was getting into trouble for being with women that were too young. That's what he told me, because he wanted me to hear it from him as opposed to hearing something on the news.

Did he deny it? No, no. I believe that he was arrested back then because he was with women that were too young. Whether or not he knew their age, I don't know, but he didn't deny it. He was with women that were too young. So when he got out of jail,

I mean, we're brothers, we joke about everything. I said to him afterwards, I said, just make sure whoever you're with is over 18. I said, set up a passport scanner by your front door so you could make sure that people are legal age. You're joking. But when he was arrested in 2019, I didn't know what it was for initially. But I've since found out that there doesn't seem to be any new charges. And that's why I believe he thought he was protected by the non-prosecution agreement that he had. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Which had been put in place years earlier. So do you, I mean, sitting here today, cause you know, you say the name Jeffrey Epstein, everybody's pedophile, it's sex trafficker, you know, spent his life taking

advantage of underage girls. And of course we've had actual testimonials to that effect by young women. Do you think it's not true? How do you see your brother and these allegations now? Well, I don't know. I'm not his attorney. You know, I don't find it my job to defend him on any of this stuff because I wasn't there. I didn't see. I don't want to be, you know, just say, well, that's his brother saying something. No, I try to be very objective about this. I don't speculate. Everyone who's spoken to me knows I won't speculate on this stuff. I just look at the facts.

Everything I've told you so far I believe is a fact. So I don't know what was going on. I mean, what people say, the unspoken things that nobody wants to say out loud is a lot of people don't believe these girls. If you look at the photographs that are released, none of them look like they were having a bad time, you know, and this is what people tell me, you know, like, well, these girls say they were raped, you know, many, many times. Well, the question is, why did you go back after the 10th rape?

You know, why did you go back after the first rape? You know, it just, that's why a lot of people don't believe it. Obviously, we never had a trial of Jeffrey Epstein. I had one of Ghislaine Maxwell to hear some of that. But here's the last thing I'll ask you. And I know you don't want to speculate, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask. Go ahead, try. What do you think happened to him? What do you think happened to him? If you don't think it was a suicide. I think, I believe he was killed to shut him up. He had, he had dirt on people. By whom?

Excuse me? By whom? Killed by whom? I won't speculate that, but I know he had dirt on people. Ask Bill Barr who he's covering up for. That's who you should really be talking to with these questions about who killed Jeffrey. Because I believe Bill Barr. I will ask Bill Barr.

He's come on the show before. I think I can get him to come on again. In fact, the day he was coming out, we were going to ask him some of this stuff, but then the Roe versus Wade decision was overturned that day and we went a different way. But I will ask him. I think it's very great of you to come out and talk about this.

I'm sure you get all sorts of blowback in certain corners, but you're the only person alive who is related to him. And Ghislaine Maxwell, who is a very close confidant, isn't talking. So I appreciate you coloring some of these lines. I think many of us have a lot of doubts and maybe even more after talking to you. Well, that's the goal, to get the right questions to the right people. Yeah, well, that's our goal. And we're actually really good at that here on this show.

Mark, I hope I get to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Yeah, we appreciate it. Okay. Look at this. I'm just pulling up. My team's pulling up Bill Barr quotes, August 19th, 2019.

Shortly after the death, I will say that, as I said before, we found serious irregularities at the center, but at the same time, I've seen nothing that undercuts the finding of the medical examiner that this was a suicide. Again, the medical examiner who didn't examine the body. That's what Mark and others have a problem with. How did we get from pending to suicide when the person who declared suicide never examined the body? One of the many questions. Thanks for watching you guys today. What a show. Have a great weekend.