The Megyn Kelly Show - Dave Rubin on Voting For Trump, Gay Marriage and COVID Hypocrisy | Ep. 28

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

Megyn Kelly is joined by Dave Rubin, host of "The Rubin Report," to talk about Rubin voting for Trump (his first time voting for the GOP), the 2020 election and Trump's legal challenges, Rubin's political evolution from Bernie to Trump, gay marriage and coming out, the media in the Trump Era, COVID hypocrisy, and much more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today on the program, we've got Dave Rubin. I love this guy. If you haven't checked out Dave's show, you can see it on YouTube, you can download it on podcasting anywhere you get your podcasts. You can see it at the blaze TV. Now you are missing out. He's so well-informed. He's so thought out. He's so reflective. And I think you're going to find he's got a lot of wisdom to offer you. This is a guy who spent most of his life as a liberal who only over the past few years has evolved in his thinking to the point where he actually, for the first time in his life in 2020, voted for Republican, for Donald Trump. And he's got

some really interesting reasons why. So we're going to talk to him in just one second. But first, let's talk about Super Beats Soft Juice. I always think about like Mary Catherine Gallagher from SNL, Super Beats. That's what I think of when I think of these guys. And if you haven't tried these things, you are missing out. I love Super Beets soft chews because they make me feel more energized without like the super jittery feeling you get when you've had too much coffee or caffeine. Plus they taste delicious. Super Beets soft chews combine non-GMO beets with a powerful new ingredient, grape seed

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And now, Dave Rubin. Dave Rubin, thank you so much for being here. Megan, I am looking forward to chatting. You know, there's a very short list of relatively sane people these days, and I've got you on the list. So let's see what happens. I'm honored. Same, by the way, same. All right, so let's talk about where we are politically, since that's the biggest story in the country right now. Trump's claims through Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, his

lawyers, that he has actually won this election, that they've sort of shifted a bit from just doing individual claims of voter fraud or voter issues and state to state to massive voter fraud on a national level, thanks to these Dominion voting machines that they think that they're alleging have been essentially hijacked by bad guys at Biden's instruction on election night. How do you view it? All right. There's a lot there. Now, I did. I did actually watch the press conference. I saw Rudy and the leaking hair dye and everything else. Oh, that was a sad moment. That was a sad moment. And it's like one of those things where it's like the hair dye leaking then

becomes a far bigger story. Or it's like that is the one thing that mainstream will cover more seriously than they will cover the allegations. Now, of course, the allegations aren't true just because they're saying it. But she did bring up a couple interesting things here. So you're right. It's not just about these little flips and when ballots got in and the rest of it. Now they're saying that Dominion, the voting software, that it really, in many ways, they're sort of arguing it was intentionally designed to do massive voter fraud and switch millions of votes. And she talked about that there's a function in there that can drag and drop votes, meaning you can actually, with a click, basically drag them from Biden or from Trump, send them to Biden,

or you could do it the other way too, of course. And then you can actually just throw them out into the trash bin like you have on your desktop. Now, those are serious allegations. They're saying they have proof of it. They're saying they've got the affidavits and they've had people, insiders at Dominion and the rest of it. And as I've been saying on my show for a couple of days now, as I've heard you say, as Tucker said on his show in the last couple of days, at some point, you got to really show us the evidence. And I think some of the confusion here is that for everyone that exists in this sort

of day-to-day media craziness, it's like we've become accustomed to just getting information all the time. The second something happens, we need to know about it. We need to share it. We need to be outraged and the rest of it. And it's like Sidney Powell, like unless this woman who is a respected lawyer and Rudy Giuliani, who, you know, he's a bit of a character obviously, but this is a guy who, you know, fought the mafia in New York city. He was, uh, you know, one, he worked in the Reagan administration in the justice department attorney. I think he was like associate attorney

general, something like that. Um, and obviously mayor of New York during 9-11. Like unless these people are sitting there to genuinely burn down their careers, reputations, in many cases, their personal lives and everything else, then I suspect there probably is something there. But, you know, unfortunately, we don't have a great media to deal with what might be true. Yeah, I'll get to the media in one second. Yeah. And we do have to wait till we see the evidence. So I'm not taking their word for it by any measure. But I would say the reason I've been covering it a little more on my show is because the media, in effect, is just ignoring it or making it sound like they're conspiracy

theorists or crazy people. Now, this is the same media, Jake Tapper is just ignoring it or making it sound like they're conspiracy theorists or crazy people. Now, this is the same media, Jake Tapper and the rest of them. And I always call out Jake Tapper because it's like he was the last chance for anything decent at CNN. And it's like, well, you guys ran with Russia. Yeah, well, you guys ran with Russia collusion for literally years. I don't know if you saw it this morning, Megan, but I tweeted out something about Jake. And I asked my audience, can you guys find me a list of Jake's tweets about Russia collusion? And then, you know, the, the sleuths of the internet, they do it and they find all of his

tweets and it, and it all reads as crazy now, but it's like, this was a power we had to just have people on the internet do research for us. I'm going to use that more often. Are you paying your researchers over there? Come on. I am like I am. Oh my God. Awesome stuff. Yeah, but people pulled together a series. I don't know if they use TweetDeck or whatever they use of all of these crazy conspiracy theories that Jake was flouting on his show and on Twitter and everything else. Now, the point is, okay, you did that. It is what it is. I'm not here to put you on a list or get you fired, which is a lot, you know, usually what the left seems to want to do with us. But the point is, you guys went with all this crazy stuff. Hillary Clinton was talking about Donald Trump being an illegitimate president.

And now if you even question anything, you're evil. And that asymmetry is what I find myself fighting the most at the moment. And that's just sort of where my energy is. And it doesn't mean any of these allegations are true. But the fact that the media is ignoring them to this level, just knowing how corrupt the media is, it's kind of like, well, then there probably is at least something there. Yeah, it's like, well, let's at least spend some time keeping an open mind to whether it could be true. Because that's, that's sort of how we've gotten to this point in the Trump presidency, where there's no faith left in the media. And many people have no faith in Trump, because they have, they've lied many, many times. And I can't wait to spend a

moment because I will say I think Rudy, who has had an amazing career and was completely beloved after 9-11 and for years thereafter, there's no question he's changed and he's gotten nuttier. I mean, it's like hard to argue against that, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. I did notice that they don't have somebody like Jay Sekulow on here who is like he's the real deal. This guy argues in front of the US Supreme Court all the time. He's been one of the president's lawyers. I'd love to hear what he has to say, because I do trust his integrity. So Megan, I mean, I have a theory, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, that the longer you fight the system, sort of the crazier you will appear to be. It's almost

an inevitability. So it's like you can watch those videos. They're all over YouTube of Trump on Oprah and on David Letterman and on Phil Donahue and all those shows of the 80s and 90s. And Oprah's literally telling him to run for president and everyone's very friendly and nice. Now they call him a racist. But if you look at the way Trump is, his affect, his demeanor, the calm, soft way that he speaks. And he's basically saying the same things that he's saying now. Now he does it in a much more braggadocious way and over the top and his speech has become a little stilted or whatever, and he's more of a character. But I think there's some version of that going on with Rudy too, where it's like when you fight the system, and again, this doesn't, this doesn't mean you're crazy, you're perfectly honest or any

of those things, but when you're fighting the system and you see what we know, Megan, like, you know, this, how evil and corrupt the media is and how they destroy people. And you keep doing it and you do it for decades and decades and decades and you have people who once were your greatest allies now calling you racist and a bigot and all of those things, which is exactly what Trump and Giuliani and the rest of them have. Like, I think it sort of will ultimately make you crazy. So when you say that Rudy is, you know, he was an effective lawyer and he was obviously a great mayor and all of those things. And, but now he does come off as a little nuts. I kind of grant him the leash on that. It's like, man, you were fighting this thing forever and you fought the

mob and you fought the media and you took unpopular positions, but fought for what you believe in and had to deal with all of that nonsense and being set up by Borat and everything else. And it's like, yeah, you come off as a little crazy. And I think that's what happened to Trump too. It was like, you watch those early videos. This is a pretty soft-spoken kind of thoughtful guy. And that's not really what we think of him now. And I think that's partly just you go through the machine and then you have to get hardened. And in a way it will twist you. And I don't even know if I mean that in a negative sense. You know what I mean there? Well, I do. But I think there's a distinction there, which is and certainly we do need to believe in our president of the United States. But politicians lie. Lawyers, lawyers live and die on their credibility.

And Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell will probably have other cases after this one, or at least I'm sure they would hope to have other cases after this one. And if your credibility is gone, you're dead. Like you, that's why I think their arguments in court have sounded different than the way they sound in front of the cameras. They haven't been alleging fraud in the way they have publicly in front of the judges. And that's what you have to listen to because you may not lie to the judge as an officer of the court. That is an ethical breach. You can lie to the media till the cows come home and pretty much everybody does. And so I actually think the hair dye going down the side of his face was, it just sort of added to the, this is like my

batty old uncle who just says crazy stuff off the internet. But, but, and I don't, I don't mean to disparage Rudy. I just mean, that's, that's why people are looking at him. Like he's changed. And I don't know if I believe him anymore. Sidney Powell, I trust Sidney Powell is the one who represented Michael Flynn and it made a huge difference in his case. And I, and she was a former us attorney down in Texas for years. And she's argued tons of cases in front of the federal courts of appeal. She's got a huge success rate. And she's being really explicit here. We have a soundbite of what she said about, you know, the whole Dominion voting. Listen. heartbreaking, infuriating, and the most unpatriotic acts I can even imagine for people in this country to have participated in in any way, shape, or form. And I want the American public to know right now that we will not be intimidated. American patriots are fed up with the corruption from the local level to the highest level of our government. And we are going to take this country back.

We are not going to be intimidated. We are not going to back down. We are going to clean this mess up now. President Trump won by a landslide. We are going to prove it. And we are going to reclaim the United States of America for the people who vote for freedom. She went on to say, I don't allege what I can't prove. I mean, that's powerful stuff. And you can hear it in her voice. Now, of course,

you can almost hear the nerve and the nerves in her voice as well, because she's not teary, didn't she? Yeah, right. So the question is, look, her tone and inflection and all that don't prove anything, obviously. And just saying words isn't proof also. But it gets to your point, which is, okay, so is this woman who is a highly respected lawyer with a great track record and everything else, is she right now, in effect, gaslighting herself? Is she burning down her entire reputation, her entire life and everything else in the name of Donald Trump or something like that? And that's why I think this is so much more complex than the media is letting us see. And that's why when she was on, well, when she was on Tucker, it's like, you know,

Tucker was kind of saying, well, you didn't give us the proof. You didn't give us the proof. But she wasn't on Tucker. Tucker was lamenting that she didn't give him the proof he'd been asking. Right, right. Sorry. So he's in effect, he's saying, okay, you didn't give us the proof, meaning we asked you for proof. You didn't give us anything.

But as you just said, what you do with the media is very different than what you do in the courts. And she is saying we have the evidence for it. And by the way, she's also saying that it'll prove that Donald Trump won in a landslide. Okay, but let me jump in on that because what I was trying to say is that their message in court is weaker than the message they offer publicly. And so that that's actually not an effective strategy because you want if you have great evidence, you get it before the judge. The judge is more important than the public first in reversing electoral results. They are not they say they're not going to try this case in the media, but they 100 percent are. Why did they hold a huge press conference and say all those things? They do want to try the case in the media. And that leads many to believe this is all about a PR strategy for a soft exit for President Trump.

If you actually have evidence of voter fraud, if you actually have evidence that proves there's been some massive fraud at this level in Dominion voting machines, it would be a massive international story. It would be the most significant voter fraud in the history of the United States. You'd show it. You'd in which she was on Maria Bartiromo. She basically said, we have an affidavit from someone who's attesting that the machines like can work this way, but not necessarily saw them work this way here. When asked like who in the Biden campaign was directing all this, she punted and kind of said, Rudy Giuliani has been handling that. We haven't had the chance to talk. You didn't talk about who in the Biden campaign directed this whole fraud. And by the way, they're, they're a really crappy fraudster because while they may have caused

Trump the presidency, if all of this is true, why did they let the Senate stay red? Why did they let the Democrats lose house seats? Why did they let the Democrats stay red? Why did they let the Democrats lose House seats? Why did they let the Democrats do so poorly on down ballot interstate races, you know, at the state level? It to me is a lawyer standing on the outside with no no dog in this hunt. It doesn't make any sense, Dave. Well, listen, that's why, again, it's why, you know, if you're looking at Sidney Powell, it's like, all right, you're you're putting your butt on the line.

So, you know, when when the court cases are there, that's the moment of truth. And again, the only reason I'm sort of even in the space that's a little more like, let's keep talking about this is because the media is ignoring it. And if we had an honest media that would address everything that you just said right there, Megan, if that's what the mainstream media was doing, then I would feel less inclined to talk about it. But because we don't really have that, I feel like that's a space that needs to be filled. In many ways, that's exactly why I started doing my show a couple of years ago, because I felt that there were so many things that the mainstream media was either not dealing

with honestly and maturely or ignoring outright. And I feel like this is just an extension of it. It doesn't mean that anything that I've said here is right. It actually doesn't mean that anything you've said here is right. It's like, we're trying to look at it and go, well, what is the difference between trying something in the media versus the courts? What is the actual human element of people that are potentially destroying their lives in the name of this thing? What about the people in the media that refuse to cover things that go against their narrative? All of that is much more interesting to me in a weird way than the specifics of what may or may not have happened.

Same, because that's going to play out. We will get answers from the courts involved on these other theories. But you're completely right, because what's happening in the media is it's infuriating. It has been for so long. And Glenn Greenwald tweeted out, he summed it up as follows. had infiltrated and taken over the U.S. Now sanctimoniously mocking conspiracy theories is exactly like watching Gavin Dinner Party Newsom and Nancy Salon Pelosi lecture and scorn people for COVID violations. He's right. If this is all a lie, or as you put it perfectly, if this is all gaslighting by Giuliani and Sidney Powell, the media's history doesn't excuse that, doesn't make it okay for them to gaslight us. But it does explain why it's so

hard to believe the media, why we are not accepting the blanket. This is absurd. This is tinfoil hat stuff, because they're the ones who have been pumping completely empty conspiracy theories about Trump for four years. Exactly. They have blown their credibility at every level whatsoever. And one of the things that I now talk about virtually every single day on my show is that we are in a reality war. It's the war for reality. So people think we're in a political war and we're in a cultural war. And, you know, people say politics is downstream from culture. So you have to win culture first and the left one culture, meaning the left one media, the left one comedy, the left one art and all of those things. And that's why the left one politics. But in many

ways, though, I view the political war, I would say it's a political battle and a cultural battle. But what sits above that is the reality war. Because right now, I think every single person listening to this understands that depending on who you listen to, what you listen to, even when you listen to it and who you follow on social media, you basically could construct a reality that seems completely real and legitimate to you, and that could be 180 degrees different than your neighbor. And that is becoming a way bigger problem than whether the Republicans have this many people in the Senate, and whether the Democrats have this many people on the courts or whatever. This idea that we no longer can agree on a basic set of facts,

that is the story that will lead us for the next decade, I think. The complications with big tech and being manipulated by algorithms that nobody knows how to control, a media that lies to us. And then, ironically, I say this as someone that's built a pretty great career and life online. I mean, now you've got a gajillion voices out there. And look, people like me and you, we're doing the best we can. And I think most people are trying to do the best they can. But there's so many voices out there that it's like, how the hell can anyone figure out what makes sense? And I think we all have to sort of struggle with that and try to figure it out. And I don't know that there's a good answer for it. No, you're right. And this is why I think the future of media is direct relationships by the audience with the hosts. You pick who you

trust and you watch or listen to him or her, as opposed to just swallowing what an entire network is pushing on you that clearly has an agenda. And hopefully when you choose your person, you don't just choose somebody who's agenda driven. You choose somebody who's fact driven and tells you what's what is knowable as fact because fact is still knowable. But I, I totally agree with what you said. I think we are seeing the culmination of Trump's distortion field and the breakdown of trust in the American media, the totally justifiable breakdown of trust in the American media. He lies, that is a fact.

He lied about his crowd size, his inauguration, about Hurricane Dorian's path. He lied about winning the popular vote, which he didn't. I could go on. But they lie even more frequently. And as a group, their lies are ubiquitous. They cross channel to channel. Now, I was just sort of thinking about it before the interview.

Forget all the lies in Russiagate. I mean, I could spend the next hour, right? Like Trump had advanced access to the WikiLeaks dump about the DNC and Podesta and Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie. All false. Buzz, the MSNBC, CNN. Megan, don't forget, Donald Trump Jr. had lunch with someone for 15 minutes on the Upper East Side and that proves everything. I mean...

It was me. Okay, so that... But then, you know, you just look at like... The two that really jump out at me and make my skin crawl are the lies about the Jussie Smollett case. Right.

Said he at 2 a.m. in Chicago and during the middle of the polar vortex, he had he bumped into two guys wearing MAGA hats in the middle of Chicago who happened to just recognize this obscure actor from the show. They just happened to have rope and bleach on them, then attacked him with a hate crime. And the media ran to affirm it. Looking back at the headlines, he was attacked, CNN and ABC. This highlights the hate black gay Americans face, Washington Post. He was attacked by men hurling homophobic and racial slurs, NBC and BuzzFeed. No alleged, no he claims, he was. And they were 100% wrong. The guy was a fraudster. He made it up. Just go talk to the police chief in Chicago if you don't believe me. And there's no accountability, not to mention what they did to Covington, to the Covington kids, Dave. So we don't believe them anymore. They're

not believable. And their complete sacrifice of their own trustworthiness has real life consequences that we're seeing right now. Megan, quote unquote, journalists have destroyed journalism. It's as simple as that. And then you can even take it to another level. Look, politicians, I expect politicians to lie. Everybody now is Trump a unique liar in the way that he lies. You know, this is where Scott Adams, this is where Scott Adams would say something like Trump is directionally truthful, meaning Trump is sort of kind of telling you the truth, but then he's exaggerating and all of that stuff. But without unpacking all of that, does Trump lie? Absolutely. Did Barack Obama lie?

If you like your plan, you can keep it. Of course he did. Do they lie? Of course they all lie. Some of them do it in a way that makes us feel a little more comfortable or a little more sedated, but they all lie. But what you're pointing out is how the media loves a narrative because in effect, almost every journalist across the board is a Democrat. They're a lefty, a liberal, whatever you want to call it. And they act as such. So it's like when, when the Jesse Smollett thing, it wasn't just that they all run to judgment and the Covington was probably even more of a crazy case of that. But then think about the tweets from Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren and Bernie and AOC, that this is proof

that America is racist. It's proof. And then they run with that. And then, by the way, the media never calls them out on that. CNN doesn't run, boy, now that we realized we got that whole story wrong and we almost started a race war here, we probably should show you some of the tweets by the politicians that all turned out to be complete lies, even though they're always telling us America's racist, yet they have to make up stories to prove the racism. So it's like, it's, and I think, again, that's what Trump understood, that it's not just Democrats fighting Republicans, conservatives fighting liberals. It's conservatives fighting Democrats and the media. And that has led us, that is exactly what has led us to this moment of sort of complete destruction, where as we speak, you know, we're locking down these states more and more and nobody

trusts these people. Why would I trust Gavin freaking Newsom in my state of California, the man who ruined San Francisco? I mean, you can't find anyone that will say anything good about San Francisco. You've got all of the rich people leaving now because they, because even their beautiful houses aren't enough to stay at this point. And they're all going to Texas. He destroys San Francisco. So what happens as a progressive? Well, you fail up and now you're the governor of Cali.

Now he's destroying California while he's eating at French Laundry, which is about a thousand bucks a plate. Have you ever been there? I would have, I tried to go once that it was months of reservations. Couldn about a thousand bucks a plate. Have you ever been there? I would have. I tried to go once. It was months of reservations. Couldn't even get in. No, I've never been there.

But when I come out to California, we'll try to get in. We'll use somebody else's name. We'll try. We'll try. More with Dave Rubin in one second. But first, Black Rifle Coffee Company is a veteran-owned coffee company serving premium coffee to people who love America. Veteran, CEO, and founder Evan Hafer spent over seven years on the ground overseas with U.S. Special Forces and as a CIA contractor.

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and check out the best coffee in America. America's Coffee makes your holiday shopping easy with personalized bundles, gifted subscriptions to the coffee club, gift cards, and a whole lot of premium coffee apparel and gear. Make your holidays better with Black Rifle Coffee. That's blackriflecoffee.com slash mk, which gets you 20% off coffee apparel and gear, as well as 20% off your first month of the coffee club. I think the hypocrisy of not just the media, but these politicians who are now lecturing us about the stakes of our democracy is stomach turning. It's like, I understand the Democrats are looking at Joe Biden saying, fight, get out

there and fight. And the Biden team's kind of saying, this is going to play out the way we wanted to. We're just going to stay quiet. But he may be onto something because every Democrat who sticks their head up and says something sounds completely hypocritical. And you nailed it with a tweet about Hillary Clinton's conflicting messages, which I loved, pointing out that she, you got to love the chutzpah on this, the Clintons in general. She tweets, protecting one man's ego is not worth damaging the legitimacy of our democracy. I can just sort of hear hail to the chief playing in the background, right? Like, thank you, Hillary. That's so well said.

It's true. His ego's not worth damaging the legitimacy of our democracy. And then you pulled up her tweet from September 29th, 2019, a year ago, saying Trump knows he's an illegitimate president. You know, Megan, one of the things that happens every morning when I wake up and I look at Twitter is I'm like, oh, what am I going to have to respond to today? Like, what kind of crazy stupidity am I going to be left having to tweet about? And I saw that tweet from Hillary. And then within one second, I mean, like a millisecond, the next thought in my mind is, wait a minute, wait a minute. I know that this

woman has said that the last election was illegitimate or she was the rightful president or some version of that. And then it took literally one more second for me to Google it. And then of course, immediately I find that quote and then I screen grab it and I tweet it. And it's like, man, again, if we only had a media that would call out both sides evenly, then it wouldn't leave people like me who, again, I always tell my audience, I don't consider myself a journalist. I'm not a journalist. I tell you what I think. I'm trying to do the best I can. But I wouldn't have to do that stuff if the media would would act honestly. But they refused to. So they would rather burn their own house down.

So it's like you'll get a whole bunch of blue check journalists today retweeting Hillary and being like, you go, girl. And how great. See, she's a true American. While at the same time, it's only a year ago. I mean, that was from, as you said, September 2019, when she was saying Donald Trump was an illegitimate president. Okay, so let's just talk for a minute about Trump, because I know you voted for him. You said it's the first time you've ever voted Republican in your life. And it's been an evolution, you know,

which we'll talk about that from your lifetime as a Democrat to your voting, not just for any Republican, but for Donald Trump. The scariest of all Republicans. The scariest, Donald Trump. So you actually, there was a moment where you had to fill out the little bubble for Trump or pull the lever for Trump. What did that feel like? Well, it was a touchscreen here in LA. I did not have to show my ID, so I could have been anybody.

And then I could have gone back the next day and pretended I was my neighbor because all I needed was a name and an address. But putting that aside, what did it feel like? Honestly, it felt great, Megan. It really did. I'm not saying Donald Trump is the perfect person. I'm obvious. Nobody's saying that.

But I think he was the imperfect tool to fight something that I think is much more evil than I think Donald Trump is. I think the idea of identity politics, which is the most antithetical set of ideas that we've ever had to fight in America in many ways, because it's coming from within as opposed to having to fight socialism or communism or Nazism from, from the outside. Um, the ideas of, of, uh, of identity politics, of social justice, critical race theory being injected into our federal institutions, you know, things like title nine that Obama put in that got rid of due process at the, at the college level, these, these things. And then on top of his fighting the media, he was the leader. He was the imperfect tool. He was the blunt instrument. And in many ways, what I've likened this to is the barbarians are at the gate. We're really debating right now as we wrap up 2020.

We really are debating in America whether this experiment is good or not, whether this should continue or not. That really is on the table now. And people are really worried about that. And I think Trump basically was at the gate guarding and the barbarians are at the gate. And then you've got all the elites, all the academic elites, all the institutional elites, the media elites, all the political elites. they're all pointing at the guy who's keeping the barbarians at bay. And they're going, oh, he likes his steak well done with ketchup and he has messy hair and he talks funny and he's orange. And it's like, he was ironically, ironically the one that was saving the institution. So I've argued that he was in many ways saving liberalism and conservatism because

he was saving conservatism for obvious reasons, right? He, all the judges and everything else, he may not be a traditional conservative, but most people would, would agree that he was doing well if you, if you're a conservative and, and he was saving liberalism in that he was the one that was, you know, liberals just talk all day, right? Like even when, when the whole intellectual dark web thing blew up and all of these guys that I have some, some serious major differences with now, um, like when we were talking about all of this stuff, it's like, we were just talking and I kept saying, well, when are we going to start doing?

And it's like, Trump did start doing by getting critical race theory out of the institutions and reversing title nine and the rest of it. So it doesn't make him perfect. He ain't perfect. And I don't know what really is there, but you don't get a panther in a China shop. You get a bull in a China shop. There is no metaphor of a panther. I think we all wanted a panther. We wanted this slick animal to walk into its China shop and bumps one thing over with its hip and one thing over with its tail and then close the door nicely. But like, that's just not how it works. That's so well put. It's like when you think about barbarians at the gate, with all due respect to Mitt Romney, that's not the one you want at the

gate. They with the perfect hair and the perfect chiseled jaw and like the sweet, polite demeanor. I don't know. Exactly. And Megan, that's why right now what you hear from a lot of like sort of just like mainstream thinkers is, oh, don't worry, because the Republicans will keep the Senate, which, by the way, isn't even we're not even sure of that at the moment. But, you know, if they keep it by one vote, that that will be the bulwark against the radical left agenda, because Biden is just a shell for that thing. Everyone knows Biden doesn't know what's going on anymore. Like, that's just obvious. I'm sorry. It's just sadly true. The idea that Mitt Romney or one or two votes in the Senate, if they get the Senate, that that's going

to be the bulwark against this lefty agenda. It's like, that's just crazy. Anyone could flip the pressures, the public pressures, the personal pressures, just an honest decision that, that maybe isn't a partisan line decision, that that is going to be the thing that keeps the system in place, that keeps balance in the force. That strikes me as, as really short-sighted and not really, uh, understanding human nature. You had a great line the other day about Trump that I was like, that's so good. That's that sums it up right there. And it was it was I don't know if it was in this context, but I reused it later and cited you as as much of a legacy. I did. I said Dave Rubin came up with this Trump's legacy. One of his legacies will be that he taught Republicans how to fight. Yeah. Do you think it's going to stick? You know, like if Trump leaves office,

do you think they'll have the same sort of just resolve to fight these battles? Will they listen to the working class to fly over country who spoke through Trump about what was important to them? It's a great question. I've been thinking a lot about this because I do think that that in many ways, regardless of what happens now will be the legacy. Let's say he's a one term president. The legacy will be, holy cow, an insurgency was run. And for the people who appreciate it and like it and are happy about it, they'll look

back at it as folklore. And for the people who hate it, and that'll be most of the mainstream, they'll look at it as how did this horrific aberration happen? But the simple fact is Trump showed them how to fight. The Republicans tried it with the decent guys, the quote unquote decent guys. They tried it with Romney. They tried it with McCain and it didn't work. So Trump said, okay, we can't do that. I'm going to have to do some crazy stuff. I'm going to have to say some very crazy stuff at a debate about Megyn Kelly because that changes the formula.

And that, whether you like it or not, whether you like how someone fights or not is separate from whether fighting the way he has is effective. And it certainly has been effective. And we'll see if it's effective for the next four years or not is separate from whether fighting the way he has is effective. And it certainly has been effective. And we'll see if it's effective for the next four years or not that, you know, we'll probably know in the next couple of weeks, but how people will look back on it is pretty interesting to me because one of the things that I'm definitely worried about is if Trump loses right now, the 70 plus million people who voted for him, who see the world, probably Megan, in a similar way that we see the world, who see the grand battle in a similar way that we see it. There's this phrase, everyone knows the red pill phrase, like when you wake up to all of the leftist stuff,

basically, and the mainstream stuff, and then you get red pill. That's the idea. But the next version of that is black pill. That's the thing that's going on online. You can hear this a lot now where it's like once you've been red pilled, but you realize that that isn't even enough. And then you're just basically depressed. Like the whole system is just screwed and we're going to just end up in, in perpetual awfulness. And I actually am worried that a lot of the people, if Trump loses a lot of the people who started to speak up, who started to fight political correctness, started to fight cancel culture, whether it was publicly or in their own life or whatever it was, that a lot of them will become blackpilled. They'll be like, holy cow, Donald Trump couldn't even do it. So how can I ever do it in my life? And then what I think happens is you probably get someone on the right. That's going to be many

more of the bad things that they purport Trump to be because someone will come along on the right and be like, see, Trump wasn't even enough. So now I'm really going to go all in on it. And that, of course, was the danger to call Trump, Hitler and a Nazi and far right. And it's like, he's, he's none of those things. He ain't perfect, but he ain't any of those things. But you've, you've now positioned yourself so that everyone else is a Nazi. And then what's the next thing that happens? You start punching Nazis and attacking them at their homes and God knows what else. And preventing them from getting jobs and putting them on lists. You know, to your point, I've, I've often looked at that debate moment I had with Trump, the things he said about John McCain, him attacking the Gold Star families, you know, the family.

These were not great moments for him. But the way I see them is kind of akin to what you said. If if there are barbarians at the gate, you want you want like that guy from Game of Thrones. What was he one who was married to Khaleesi? Yeah, yeah. I forget his name. The guy with the, yeah. Drogo, right? Long hair.

Yeah, yeah. Right. You want the biggest, like meanest, scariest guy to be standing at the gate. And you want him to unleash hell on people who are coming to get you. Like bad guys, terrorists, you know, dishonest people who want to say terrible things about you. That's who you want at the front door. And that's Trump. When Drogo comes back to sit at the dinner table with you, you really can't expect him to put the napkin on the lap and the fork is on the left and hold the wine glass the right way. And I've been saying about Trump, this is the package that comes

in. You know, the bowl who you're going to put in the China shop, this is the package that comes in. You know, the bowl you're going to put in the China shop. This is the package that comes in. Exactly. But that's what these my most sort of frustrated position right now is with my last remaining liberal friends who will still talk to me. I'm not even sure how many are left because that seems to be what they think. Trump is Gad Saad, who you probably know, the evolutionary biologist up in Canada, who I think is a wonderful thinker. He talks about how Trump is in effect like an aesthetic injury to these people. And because of that, even if he is, even if they can acknowledge that, holy cow, he's doing a lot of the stuff that we've been railing against. So we all talk about why identity politics is bad, why critical race theory in the institutions is bad, how it actually is injecting racism into the system known as systemic racism. We all talk about it. Now here's this guy who

comes and he's orange and hair plugged and talks funny. And he actually starts doing the things, meaning he's literally getting it out of the system. But because liberals have this, it sounds cliche, but I really know it to be true. Liberals like being liked in a way that conservatives I don't think do. Conservatives are more okay being disliked. I don't know, there might be some psychological or philosophical, maybe even religious reasons for that. But liberals really like being liked. So it's like, you'd rather be pointing and sneering at the guy or sit down with him at the table, as you're saying, and you know, he's eating with his hands and it's getting all over the place and there's sauce all over his face. You'd rather mock him afterwards than, than actually own up to the fact that the only way a liberal order survives

is that a couple of those guys are necessary throughout time. I just fundamentally believe that. I think it's, my own observation is, I don't know if it's they need to be liked, but I definitely think these leftists, who I distinguish from liberals, want to feel better than. There really is an elitism and a desire to hurt others in order to build yourself up. They're damaged people. They're really damaged. And your average healthy person feels no desire to hurt somebody else in order to make themselves feel worthy of anything. And so we're not dealing with stable people who are trying to cancel everybody and lecture everybody and put down huge swaths of the American public based on their, you know, whether they're male or female

based on whether they're white or black, this isn't healthy and it isn't normal, but I don't tag all liberals with that. But I, I do think there's an unhealthy amount who are really intent on feeling better than, and any deviation from their standard of speech makes them do it. Yeah. Well, just for the record, I mean, I know you know this. I don't say that about all liberals, of course. And in many ways, if the world was sane, I could, you know, look, I just wrote a book that was a defense of liberalism. I mean, the whole purpose of the book is that liberalism is worth defending. Actual liberalism.

Of course, I don't paint all liberals with that brush. And there is a distinction between leftists and liberals. And I probably spent more time talking about that over the last five years than anybody. But as a general rule, it's like one of those things. Of course, all conservatives don't believe this. And of course, all liberals don't believe this. My frustration with the liberals right now is that I don't know what position they're holding that makes any sense anymore. So I see all of my- I think they're on our side. I really think that they are secretly on our side when it comes to the cultural war.

They're just afraid. Megan, they come to my house and eat my food and tell me that they're on our side. I have, I still, I have illegal parties here in LA. I'm a real rebel, you know, and, and people that are blue check, well-known work at high level media places who rail against Trump all day long, come to my house and tell me they're Trump supporters. That is true. That is true. I'm not going to out them right now, but that is true. That is true. I'm not going to out them right now, but that is true. And if you think about it, I think you particularly, Megan, but your audience too, could probably figure out a few of them.

Well, it's funny to me because you used to be with the Young Turks Network. I mean, they're established left and you evolved. I love that that's where you were as recently as just a few years ago, and that your transition to this culture warrior, that's how I view you. I don't even think Dave, I don't think Dave Rubin conservative or Dave Rubin Republican. I think Dave Rubin culture warrior. And I would like to think of myself as the same because I think the first amendment is worth fighting for. It's, I don't, it's not a partisan thing. It's an American thing. So what did it? I know you've got a couple of moments you specifically remember

where your eyes started opening. Can you walk us through it? Yeah. I mean, there are a couple specific moments, but I would preface it by saying that for about a year when I was on The Young Turks, and people can find the videos. I mean, I was a Bernie supporter. It's funny. People will find videos of me supporting Bernie and they'll tweet them at me and be like, you seller sell out, you grifter, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, I'm actually telling you the

truth. When I tell you, I evolved. Like, do you think all of the same things that you thought four years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago, Do you have synapses in your brain or do you believe you can evolve on things? Do you believe that you can get new information and that you can compare that with what you believe and potentially change? That's actually what makes us different from the animals. But for about a year on the Young Turks, I was realizing that something, the equation stopped working. So in other words, everybody that they disagreed with, everybody, and there was almost no exclusions to this, was a bigot and a racist and a homophobe and Islamophobe and the rest of it. And it started to feel very lazy to me because it was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. How am I so bright and so smart and so

good and moral and ethical and everything else. And everyone I'm around is so bright and smart and moral and ethical and everything else. And everyone that we disagree with is the worst of all things. Like the math didn't add up anymore. Like it seemed like, wait a minute, this is just too easy. Something's not right here. And then a couple specific instances popped up. I write about them in the book. And one of them was when Sam Harris was on Bill Maher's show with Ben Affleck, and they got into a big fight about Islam. And then suddenly, because Ben Affleck called Bill Maher and Sam Harris gross and racist, suddenly the media was telling me, everybody across the media, and especially at my network, The Young Turks,

was telling me that Bill Maher, I didn't even know who Sam Harris was until that night, but that Bill Maher was a racist and a bigot. And it's like, Bill Maher is the standard bearer of the left in America for the last 30 years. And just watching this overly emotive reaction as Bill Maher and Sam Harris tried to calmly explain the difference between people and ideas, that you would never want to be bigoted towards people. In this case, you wouldn't want to be bigoted towards Muslim people, but you are allowed to criticize ideas, meaning you can criticize religious ideas, you can criticize political ideas, you can criticize the rules of a sports game. If you can't criticize a set of ideas, well, then you're giving a lot of power to that set of ideas to control you.

Um, but, but since I've talked about that one a lot, I'll tell you the, one of the other ones real quick, uh, because I think, you know, I'm 99% sure, you know, the guy, uh, David Webb, who, who was a Fox news contributor. And, uh, he was a serious, he is a serious XM host on the Patriot channel. And, and years ago, when I had a show on SiriusXM, I was on the OutQ channel because if you're gay, they had a separate channel for you because I guess they like separate but equal. I was begging to be on the political channels, but they threw me on the gay channel. And I met David. I met separate but equal.

To the gay channel with you. Yeah, exactly. And so I met David in the hallway one day and we started chatting and we quickly became friends. And I used to go on his show basically every week. And I was the lefty and he was the conservative. And we'd talk it out. And I'm sure you've been to that Sirius XM building in Midtown. And right downstairs is Del Fresco's Steakhouse. And we used to go out for steaks and we'd have whiskey and just have a blast. And it was great. And we've become good friends over the years. Well, one day I was on air with the Young Turks and they're showing a clip of David Webb on Fox and they're calling him an Uncle Tom and a sellout and all of the worst things that you

could possibly call somebody. And I'm watching them do it. And suddenly it became crystal clear to me. It was, you guys are the racist. Here is a black man, a man, I shouldn't say, I should say a man who happens to be black, who I know, David, and this guy believes what he's saying and has taken unpopular positions for a long time, which is not easy for black conservatives to do, Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, Candace Owens, et cetera. I know he's a good man on top of the fact that he believes what he believes and believes what he says. And here you are saying how everyone else is racist, except when a black man says something you don't like, you're allowed

to call him the worst things imaginable. And once I saw that, because the fact that I was friends with him made it real to me. It wasn't just like, you know, you see these people in the cable news boxes and they're sort of like Muppets in a way. They don't even come off as human. But it was like, I know this guy. This is a buddy of mine. And that you think you can do that. Well, you know what? You're not for Black people. You're for Black people who behave the way you want. And I would say that's in many ways, the most racist you could possibly be. So that was just one of the incidents. Of course. It is racist. And it's so incredibly diminishing to look at somebody like David or whomever and say, they must think a certain way because of the color of their skin. They must. And if they don't, they're somehow a traitor,

a race traitor. I mean, that is incredibly racist. But they've reduced the arguments down to you're racist, you're a sellout, or you're a grifter. Like, that's pretty much all they got. So when a guy like David Webb or Thomas Sowell, because he's an economist, is probably even a better example of this. Larry Elder is another one. When he will explain why, and I've interviewed Thomas Sowell. It was one of my greatest honors as an interviewer.

I watched it. Can I just interject there? Because I watched it and you were like, do you want me to tell you some of the amazing comments I've gotten about you? And he's like, no. He goes, I asked him again after the interview, I said, I asked people if they could say something nice about you, if you've you know, I asked people if they could, you know, say something nice about you, if you've affected them, maybe I could read some to you. And he goes, young man, I've been doing this for a long time. I was just like, he's over it. You know, he's doing what he thinks is right.

And he doesn't care if people like him or don't like him. Like that's the, that's the greatest freedom you could ever have. Totally. Hashtag goals, right? Like that's how I feel when I listened to him. Yes. And by the way, if you are not familiar with Thomas soul, get familiar with him ASAP. And if also, if you don't know Larry Elder, you got, I'm sorry, Dave, but you've got to Google Dave Rubin, Larry Elder, systemic racism and watch their two part interview, which was spectacular. And I know another eyeopening moment for you,

but he, you know, Larry Elder knows his facts. He's like, I brought facts, bitches. And man, when he unleashes on you, it's great. It's great stuff. Well, look, that's why I can truly say, and I don't know how many people can say it, but my best and worst professional moment were at the exact same time. It was my worst moment sitting there with Elder because I claim that systemic racism exists. I was still a lefty. And he then beats me over the head with facts. So it's my worst moment in that regard because I didn't come to the fight ready. I didn't come armed with information. But it's my best moment because at the time we were at Aura TV, which is a digital network that Larry King founded. And I went into the control room after and we had a huge crew.

And several of the producers immediately ran up to me. Don't worry, Dave, we're going to cut that. Don't worry about that. That won't be seen. And I immediately said, no, we got to leave it. Like, what am I as an interviewer? What am I as someone that's trying to spread something decent and true? If when, when a real moment happens, I cover it up to save face. So it truly was my gold. And it was great too, because he was like, what else you got? He, he took apart the, I think it was the police systemic racism charge. And like, what else, what else is systemically racist laid on me? And you were like, Holy shit. This is scary.

But by the way, Larry, yeah. And Larry and I are good friends now. And it's like, oh, of course, of course, happy to continue that conversation at, Larry. Yeah. And Larry and I are good friends now. And it's like, we'd be happy to continue that conversation at any time. But look at the way these guys, Soul, Elder, Candace to a different degree, because she's sort of more new school and out of the social media world. But David Webb, look at the way these guys are treated by the so-called tolerant people. And it's not as if they're just throwing bombs out there that don't make any sense. Thomas Sowell has written books on how the welfare state destroyed the black family and

traps people in perpetual poverty. And then people can't get out of subsidized housing. And that handouts actually increase the likelihood that you'll end up in poverty and all of those things. But if you even say any of that or you cite them somehow, you're a racist, you're a grifter, and they're even worse than that. His would be a household name. Thomas Sowell would be a household name. Sadly, I don't think he is if he were saying liberal things. brilliant black intellectual giant who has taken real risks in his life and taking these heterodox positions and is so well accomplished and well written and he's ignored he's ignored by the

mainstream same i see coleman hughes as the same up and coming on the other side he's only 24 but he's he's the next thomas soul and although he's more liberal but who cares they still won't put him on because he's not liberal enough because he's not saying the right things about Black Lives Matter. Right, right, quote unquote, right? And I think that's why there's this weird collection, I don't know if we're in the middle or where we are, of people who are just standing up to this nonsense. Whatever your political stripes are or used to be, it's like a new front in the war, in the culture war, in the war for the soul of the country. I would say that the future of America and the future of all Western societies

is a center right future, meaning that conservatives got a lot of the big stuff right about family, about belief, about limited government, about individual rights. I think those are like sort of the underlying principles that we need to have a flourishing, free, pluralistic society. And by the way, that's exactly what we've had for 250 years in America. So that doesn't mean that they got everything right in that exact moment. So, you know, we could have had women's rights earlier, the ability to vote, obviously have had women, women's rights earlier, the ability to vote. Obviously we should have freed the slaves earlier, although we did it. We freed our slaves faster than I think any Western nation, uh, from its inception and fought

a war over it and everything else. Um, gay people couldn't get married until the last decade. Like, could we have done things a little bit faster and have we made mistakes like Japanese internment? Of course we've made mistakes, but the arc has always bended towards more justice, more freedom, and more equality for more people. We're now changing that into this equity thing where everyone, as Kamala Harris put up in that little animated video two days before the election, everyone will end up in the same place. This is deeply dangerous. And if it was true, then I guess I would be vice president, we'd all end up in the same place. And that's what she's going to be, I guess. So I think the future of all Western countries will be a center-right future, meaning it will hopefully be some level of limited government, hopefully some level of free markets. And then we can have that debate about the social issues. And by the way, that is exactly what conservatives are doing right now. So 15 years ago, you could barely find one conservative who was publicly for, for gay marriage. Now the ship has sailed and virtually everybody is, or they just take the libertarian approach, which is, you know, I have my own beliefs, but the state should provide equality, which is exactly the way it should be done. And our founding documents would have laid out. But even on something like abortion, you know, I describe myself as begrudgingly pro-choice,

and I think a first trimester should be the cutoff. And, you know, look, a guy who we talked about earlier, Rudy Giuliani, at one time, he was the leading candidate to be president on the Republican side. Remember that about 10 years ago? It obviously didn't go well. But this is a guy who was for gay marriage and who's pro-choice also. And he's obviously a Republican. So Republicans have shown and conservatives have shown, hey, we're willing to do a wide

tent thing. And the left, in essence, is saying, check off the same stuff that AOC checks off or we're taking you out. And by the way, even Nancy Pelosi knows that because whenever she goes against AOC, she calls her a racist. So it's this really twisted game right now. Coming up in one second more with Dave Rubin and a bizarre story involving Dave, Donald Trump Jr., Dennis Rodman, and a sperm bank. You're not going to want to miss this. Speaking of hot stories, I shared one a couple of weeks ago and it nearly crashed the Scoremaster website. The story is that the average American has 97 points, almost 100 points that

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100,000 bucks over the life of your loan. If you own a business, same. It's going to go, it's going to work out much better for you. Trust me on this. So before you do any of those things, go to Scoremaster because they will put you in control of your finances. Enroll in just minutes and see how many plus points Scoremaster can add to your credit score. Visit Scoremaster.com slash MK. That's Scoremaster.com slash MK. That's scoremaster.com slash MK. Coming out as a Trump supporter was not the first time in your life you've come out. So and you've been pretty open about this. So let me start with that. Which was tougher coming out as gay or as a Republican? Megan, I truly believe it or not coming out as a Trump supporter was way harder,

way, way harder. I know that sounds crazy. I know that sounds crazy. But the thing is, any gay person or anyone that's walking around with any kind of secret, because you can be closeted about anything. And the way I always describe closeted is like, it's like being a painter and saying that you just won't use blue, meaning that you won't use the full set of emotions that you have as a human being to become fully who you are, to become fully self-actualized. And when you're closeted, you know what that's like.

You can start lying about things without even intentionally lying. And you just, you're never fully there. It's really hard to live one life. Like we all know that. It's really hard to live one life. We all know that. It's really hard to live one good, decent life. I'm trying the best I can and I fail at it all the time, but it's really, really hard to live two lives or three lives. That's what closeted people end

up doing. The thing is, when you're closeted about your sexuality, it's usually an inside job, meaning you have to grapple with that from an inside meaning. What does it mean to you? And then, of course, there's outside pieces of it. What is my family going to think, my friends, et cetera? But especially in modern times, in the last 20 years, if you come out of the closet, and sure, there are some exceptions to this. You could come from a very evangelical Christian family or an Orthodox Jewish family or a more

religious Muslim family. Are you going to have some family problems? Sure. But in essence, if you come out as gay, especially in 2020, you will be treated like a king. Like the red carpet is rolled out. It's great. It's wonderful. You're also different.

So you get social justice points. It might actually help you get a job at this point and everything else. As a Trump supporter, you come out as a Trump supporter. And in effect, the job opportunities might roll up. Your neighbors might turn on you. Your family might turn on you. And by the way, these are all real things. These aren't just imaginary things. So I know it really sounds crazy, but dealing with the fallout that I've dealt with over the last couple of months from not only my family members, but friends, lifelong friends, some of the public people that used to

be very closely aligned with me that now would never retweet me or share any of those, share a post or anything. It's like, that's been real. That's been real. And for some reason, I don't have any problem showing up to a Turning Point USA event and talk about being gay married. Actually, if I say it, I usually get a standing ovation. That's just a fundamental difference these days. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. Has it been physically stressful? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I started telling people what I thought about politics, so this is now like 2014, 2015, when I was really waking up and I started saying, hey, as a lefty guys, like we're not defending liberalism, thought were the tolerant, diverse, good guys was unbelievable. I mean, just endless death threats and emails and Twitter and just all of that stuff. And I think you know the story, but I developed alopecia areata, which is an autoimmune disease

that they don't know why it happens, but in essence, they can only chalk it up to stress. And basically, your white blood cells start attacking your hair follicles. And I lost about 40% of my hair in patches. It was an absolute nightmare. And I was going on camera with sprayed on hair and, you know, like matte powder and all this stuff. I went on this crazy experimental medication that in many ways was worse than the alopecia itself because it caused me to be basically bloated and broken out and hot all the time. And amazingly,

only my face was not affected, but my entire body was just broken out and red and itchy and sweaty. I mean, it's horrible to even think about, but you can go back. I mean, if you go back and look at my videos, look at my Why I Left the left video, which is in many ways, the video that put me on the map. Um, I was in the middle of it then. And my hair is sprayed on. You could look at my eyes. I looked broken. So you really did feel connected to Rudy in that moment we started with. Yeah. Like I, I, I had some spray on hair and it could have been dripping down the side of my head. Fortunately, PragerU, they keep that studio pretty cool. I feel your kinship. No, honestly, Dave, can I tell you, we've been beaten on the left pretty good.

But I will say I have experienced a little bit of this from the right after I asked Trump that debate question. And it wasn't just Trump who came after me for nine months. It was what I felt at the time was sort of the Breitbart crew led by Steve Bannon, who are calling me the C word all the time and everything in the book and really ramping up the threats. And I at the time, I remember being on my heels because I thought, wait, the right doesn't do this. The right isn't into this kind of thing. I don't like what this isn't like them. I don't get it. And I remember I started breaking out. I started to get bad acne and my dermatologist, he moved. I can't remember what happened, but I wasn't, I didn't have access to him. And I went to this like temporary, like a new doctor, a young woman who had just gotten out of med school. And she's looking at

me and now I'm like in all the papers because Trump is calling me all the names and we just had the debate and it's like an incredibly crazy time. And she looks at me and she goes, have you been under an unusual amount of stress? I'm like, have you been living under a rock? Do you have television? For the love of God, just give me an antibiotic or something and I'm out of here. And I didn't go back to her. But it does like that kind of stress can take its toll on you physically. And obviously in ways that may not be that pretty, unfortunately. So let me just back up with you for one second and ask you, let me ask you a straight person's

question, which is how did you know that you were gay? You know, it's so funny because straight people love this question. So it's kind of funny. You prefaced it with that, like a straight person's question. And I think gay people are kind of like, ah, that, that question again. Um, but I'll do the, I'll do the best I can. You know, it's funny. I, I didn't come out till I was very late in life. So I came out at like 25. And I don't know if you know the story, but I came out literally at 1230 a.m. on September 11th, 2001 in the Times Square subway station to my friend Mike, who was a comedian. He was the first person that I came out to. He was openly gay. But literally, I woke up seven hours later and America was under attack. And I lived in New York City. I lived on the Upper East at the time. And that in and of itself set me back a long time because when you're closeted, there's only room for one in that closet. It lends itself to paranoia. It lends itself to depression and all of those things. And I truly, truly thought that 9-11 had something to do with me. I know that sounds completely insane, but I thought I had withheld this secret for so long and I finally unleashed it to the universe. And then what happened? The city I live in was under attack. That sounds crazy when I tell people

this story. I know it does, but I genuinely thought that, but to directly answer your question, I mean, I guess I was, I was kind of always attracted to guys. Um, but I didn't think that meant you were gay, really? Like I thought gay, and this is how things change really fast. Like I grew up in the eighties. So there were no decent gay role models. I don't think that there's many right now I mean some people say I am and so be it I guess um I'm just trying to be myself that's it but I thought gay meant you like the theater and you like Madonna and you like dancing and you like fancy clothes and it's like I didn't really like any of that stuff. I played with, I played Nintendo with my friends and we had transformers and we played sports and all of those things. And then there was just this like one other thing about me, but for some guys, yeah, right. Like,

you know, like there was this other thing and it was like, that, that is what it is. But for some reason I, I, in my mind, I could kind of like compartmentalize that into, Oh, well, I'm not gay. Like, I'm not gay. I'm not Bruce Valanche, you know, like I'm not gay. I'm not, who is that guy on Liberace? Yeah. I'm not Liberace. I'm not like, I'm not that I'm not wearing a feather jacket. So I don't know. I kind of thought, I kind of thought everybody was like doing this thing on the DL and just didn't talk about it. Um, but then ultimately what happened into my mid twenties was, you know, you can't live with secrets for that long. They, they will crush you. And I was depressed. I was

doing drugs. I was drinking a lot. I was never honest with anybody. I didn't look good. I wasn't taking care of myself. My apartment was a disaster. As Jordan Peterson said, I really needed to clean my room. And then I slowly started cleaning my room and then things subsequently got better. I thought you were going to tell me it was when you realized you love the golden girls, because I know you love the golden girls. No, it's funny you say that because then people say, well, Dave, you don't seem gay. And they usually mean that as a compliment, by the way, because they, what that means is somehow you're like straight acting and, and especially gay guys love straight acting.

Like I like a guy who acts like a guy. Um, but like, I guess years later, when I started really thinking about it, look, when I was 11, 12 years old, I loved the Golden Girls. I thought it was the funniest thing ever. Everything about it was hilarious. There is some affinity, maybe because it's these women who are outspoken and they talk about sex. Also, it was funny and it was over the top in the outfits, but there is something very gay about it. By the way, there's an episode of the Golden Girls. There's two episodes that involve Blanche's brother, Clayton, and one episode he comes out

and one episode he actually marries a guy. Now he marries this guy, Doug, who's a cop. Clayton and Doug, they act completely like guys. There's nothing gay about either one of them in that traditional sense. And I guess I do remember seeing that. I'm about 12, 13 years old. Maybe a little older, actually.

I think it was around 1990. So I'm about 14 years old. And I do remember thinking that and thinking, oh, I guess I'm kind of like that. I'm like Doug the cop. And he happens to be hanging out with Clayton, something like that. But that was basically the gay role model that I had. Well, I love that. And I have to tell you when I, when I heard that about you, that you love the golden girls, that's when I knew I loved you because I love that show. And I fell in love with it back after my dad died. My dad died in 1985 and I was 15 and my mom was 44 and my mom used to watch that

show all the time. And I thought, okay, it's making her feel better. And it made her feel better because she could see a life ahead with maybe other women, you know, or she's kind of hanging out and she, she would be okay if she never found another man to love or to love her and so we watched it all the time and it was side-splittingly funny you know back in saint olaf with you know rose and sophia picture it sicily 19 oh whatever you know they were all so funny and you know that we always ask well my my gal pals and i always ask you like who would you be and i would definitely be a blanche i would be a blanche she's just so funny and kind of open with her sauciness, which I would like to think I am. So I have to ask you, who would you be?

You could definitely be Blanche. I would be Dorothy for sure. Dorothy was the realist. You know, she was the anchor. She, you know, there was a world weariness to Dorothy. But I'll tell you one line that to me captures the whole show. Because, you know, people say, well, what do you love about it so much? And yes, what you just said there is the right thing, which is, A, it was funny.

Like, genuinely, absolutely funny. But then they also dealt with, they dealt with race issues and age issues and sex issues and sexuality, obviously, and economic issues because they were often struggling for money. I mean, they dealt with all sorts of stuff. But in the episode when Clayton is marrying Doug, Blanche is really struggling with it. She's from the old South. She can't understand that her brother's gay, but he's marrying Doug. And she says to Doug, she says, why do you want to marry this man? And Clayton, he has a Southern accent. He says, well, I'd do anything for Doug and Doug would bend over backwards for me.

I mean, they made a gay anal sex joke that made a point. It made a point also. Can I just ask, I'm not an expert on this, but wouldn't that be bend over forwards in order to actually be a gay joke? Megan, it works. Trust me, it works.

And with yoga, anything's possible. Okay. Thank you for this education. Now we're really going there. But that to me captures the whole thing because it's like, not only was it wickedly funny and kind of subversive, but remember the Golden Girls, this is about 1991, NBC, 8 o'clock, primetime. That's a very different world than we live in right now. And for all these people, everyone always says, well, Modern Family had this great gay couple and blah, blah, blah. I didn't watch Modern Family, but I was told by many people that one of the guys in the

gay couple, that he had a fear of public displays of affection. So they sort of wrote it in that I guess there wouldn't be much affection. But meanwhile, back in 1990, they're making like these really subversive jokes like that. So that that to me like captures the show in so many ways. straight people in that they've had a major obstacle to overcome, revealing this thing that for far too long was shamed. And if you can reveal something like that, like you did back at a time when I think people will be surprised, some younger listeners are going to be surprised to learn that as recently as 2001, there was still shame attached to one's sexuality, but there was, there absolutely was. It's almost like you got a leg up because you've already overcome something massive and proved to yourself you can do it no matter the consequences.

And for far too many, the consequences included losing family members, losing friends, being judged, being called awful names. And as you know, you make it through something like that, you emerge stronger. You just do. You know what? Those things are not disconnected, Megan. They're really not. I think if you can get through that, and you're right, it's very different now because you won't feel that pain point probably as a young person coming out now. You could come out as non-binary. You wouldn't feel that pain point. But I think the basic answer to what you're saying is yes. I've talked about this to a couple gay people that I've had on my show, Douglas Murray, who I think you know, who I think is one of the great thinkers of our time.

I mean, I think he's sort of the next Hitchens. He's a conservative from England who happens to be gay, and we've become quite good friends. And I asked him that the first time I interviewed him, I said, do you think that because you're gay, you, this allows you to see the world in a slightly different way and that it's actually given you something. And what he said was that it perhaps makes your skin a little bit thinner, which is a little bit of an offshoot of what you just said there. But I think it gets to the same point, meaning that if you are gay and you come out and then you say to the world, well, here I am, well, then you're a little more sensitive and you actually might pick up on some of the bad things before other people do you, who you fundamentally are is not what the average person is. So it might

give you a way of looking at the world. That's a little more different. The other way that I've described this is, you know, maybe it is that, that straight people are supposed to spread the genes and gay people are supposed to spread the memes. Meaning, you know, gay people can't biologically reproduce. David and I are working on it now, but it's a whole freaking situation with eggs and surrogates and all that kind of stuff and a lot of money, but that gay people, why did, why does so much culture come out of gay people and comedy and music and art and fashion and all of these things? It's like, I don't think that's disconnected. And what's ironic is now that as the gay community, quote unquote, community becomes more leftist as GLAAD and the HRC and all of these big organizations just become lefty organizations,

it's actually killing the creativity of the gay community. So there's a real dichotomy there that I think gay people are starting to wake up to. Well, I feel for you on the effort to reproduce because my two of our best friends are married lesbians and they they have it so much easier. You just got to go to the sperm bank. I mean, I'm not saying anywhere. Yeah, it's kind of easy. And and they you know, they I don't know. I think they're pretty open about their relationship. They have an ex. One of them has an ex wife. So there are three moms in this family, which, you know, can get kind of complicated, but they own who they are. And I laughed with, with them because the way they did it was one had one of the babies, then the other one had the other baby. And then, you know, the first one

had the other, actually the second one had the third baby. But anyway, um, I said, I'm like, you know, you're selling lesbianism all wrong. This should be the pitch. You don't have to have each of the babies. You're going to have a partner who can have the other baby. Then it bounces back to you. And then they explained to me that they weren't interested in selling it. So, okay.

Yeah. Well, you listen, you want to sell lesbianism, right? You just tell me you don't have to deal with all these annoying middle-aged men. That would probably. Exactly. Wait, I got to tell you something really funny about the whole sperm donor thing and all that. It's not sperm donor. We had to deposit, I guess. So the day we were, when we were deciding to do all this, it was a few weeks before

we had been planning on it for a long time. But when we were finally ready to like deposit the sperm and actually begin the process, it was right as the lockdowns were starting and our fertility doctor called us and it was Friday. He said, you got to get here in the next hour because we could be closed for months. Like you've got to deposit this sperm now. So we hop in the car. We have to drive about 45 minutes to get there. We get there, we get out of the car. And remember that feeling right when lockdown was starting, like it just felt crazy. Like it really just like you could feel like this craziness in the air. And we get out of the car, we're going to the sperm clinic

to basically both of us whack off in a cup. That's something I never thought I was going to say to Megyn Kelly. But we're about to walk in there. As we're about 10 feet from the door, my phone rings and it's Trump Jr. So now I'm on the phone with Trump Jr. And he's just babbling. I don't even remember what he was saying. But I'm on the phone with him. I'm about to go into the sperm clinic. We're going into lockdown. And then I look to my left and standing outside the sperm clinic, just standing there with a skateboard is Dennis Rodman. And I thought, this is insane. The world is locking down. I'm on the phone with the president's son. I'm standing next to Dennis Rodman on a skateboard and I'm going to walk off in a cup. Like it was a hell of a day.

This can not be my motivation for this scene, right? I'm going to need something else, Lord. Right. You can't. And what Dennis Rodman was doing at a sperm clinic i have no idea i don't think we should ask i don't i don't think we need to know i doug is going to kill me for telling this story but i'm going to tell this story anyway so we did we did ivf um for our babies and it's a long story but we did and so he apparently like and maybe you know this but like let's say you're going to do the, um, I don't know the transfer or like whatever the sperm is going to be needed by the doctor on a Friday. So it like matters when you give the sperm to the doctor and it matters when the previous, forgive me, but ejaculation happened. And, um, it's all like down to a science and the doctor will tell you like, make sure the last time you guys have sex is like two days before he comes in to give the deposit.

So you're like, oh, wow, there's a lot to remember. Okay. Well, we kind of forgot. We were busy, whatever. And we, at that time. You're having a good time. No, no, we weren't. Well, kind of, but not the way you think.

We went to see my Nana. My Nana, who at that point. I don't know where this is going, but this just got weird. We went to see my Nana who at the time I think was like 97 and she was in her senior citizen's house and her little apartment. And the three of us are there playing dominoes. And out of the blue, I remember, Oh, this was, we're at the 48 hours mark. This is it right now.

I look at Doug. I'm like, you got to go into that bathroom right there and take care of business. He's like, what? Go take care of it. He's like, I can't do it. I can't. And of course, it's like an old person's home. And so like the the distance between the floor and the bottom of the bathroom door is like

four inches. Oh, God. He went there and he can hear me and Nana playing the dominoes and Nana being like a one or a two, you know, like all her mannerisms. And she's like, what's taking Doug so long? He must have a bellyache. I think he does, Nan. I think something's wrong with him. Let's just give him some time.

Wow. He finally emerges. He's like, I cannot believe you just made me do that. But you know what? The end story is, it worked because we got pregnant. It worked out just fine. Wait a minute. You got to finish this story.

So he does this. Now you got to rush. You got to leave Nana in the dust. No, no, no, no. He didn't do it in a cup. He just had to this story. So he does this. Now you got to rush. You got to leave Nana in the dust. No, no, no, no. He didn't do it in a cup. He just had to. He just had to do it so that like when he had to do it for real, everybody would be 48 hours old. That's what I got you right, because they want you to have this window, this ejaculation window. Sperm that's like 48 hours old is like the strongest sperm, I guess. Right. Probably every fertility doctor at home right now is saying wrong kelly wrong but that's basically the rule they wanted it to be like 48 hours before the real deposit had to be made and poor doug

he's gonna kill me for telling you this story what do you think andrew como would think about that because you know he's obsessed with old age homes. Oh my God. I literally just bought me and Janice Dean one of those window creeping Cuomos to put on your window for Thanksgiving. I am so mad about the whole COVID thing. I know you have been too. I'm so ticked off about the disgusting hypocrisy of these politicians who are lecturing the rest of us like Gavin Newsom before he does exactly what he's telling us we can't do. And de Blasio here, and I'll tell you the one that's really ticking me off. Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot. She shared video of herself in a crowd speaking without a mask right after the election. Yay, Biden.

Then she ordered everyone to only leave their houses for work, school or essential needs. OK, like I can go out and I can celebrate Biden's win without a mask or surrounded by people. But you can't. You can only go to work or school. Then she was questioned by it, about it by a reporter. And she defended it by saying, and I quote, look, this has been a super hard year on everyone. And there are times when we actually do need to have relief and come together. Screw you, Mrs. Mayor.

It's such a gross statement, like truly gross. Because either what she's saying is this is all BS and we can ignore it when we want to ignore it. Or basically I'm putting orders on you that I just feel I have my emotional needs and I've got to go be happy when I've got to be happy. But how many people's lives will I destroy in the process of that? It almost is irrelevant. But I think people have absolutely had it. Look, Megan, here's the truth about COVID. Right now we know, and anyone can Google this, it has a 97 to 99.5 recovery rate. And we now have two major pharmaceutical companies that are promising us basically a 95% coverage of the vaccine. It's not to diminish any of the people who have lost their lives or got sick, but young people and basically everyone that doesn't have some other issue,

usually a respiratory issue or very old, everyone recovers. So the idea that we have in effect, in some ways you could argue, we have decided to destroy the Western world. We have decided to lock people in their homes, destroy businesses, destroy dreams of anyone that wanted to be a restaurateur or own a small business, all of the things that give us purpose and passion in life. We have decided to let our government officials who then go eat a thousand dollar a plate French laundry dinners with 12 people and no masks indoors. We have somehow said to them, okay, you should have some authority over us. The silver lining on this is that I think that the French laundry thing, the light foot thing, the Cuomo, all of the hypocrisy that we're seeing out of them, I think it is igniting

something within people. And maybe we needed this absolute hysterical authoritarian strain to come out fully to get enough people to push back. Because at this point, look at every time that Gavin Newsom tweets. I mean, the replies are incredible. It's people who are saying enough is enough. And maybe we forgot that feeling in America. And maybe this is what it will take to get it back.

This guy who was eating at French Laundry, Gavin Newsom, without a mask on, surrounded by people well within six feet, well within six inches, recently tweeted out, his office did, that you should be putting your mask on in between bites when you're at a restaurant, in between bites and sips of your drink. Needless to say, he wasn't wearing one and he was inside and breaking all the rules himself. And of course he said he was sorry, but who cares? They're not going to follow these rules they're setting for the rest of us. Testify, sister. That's what I would say to that. We're not sure what we're doing for Thanksgiving this year, because normally this is the main holiday that we host. And we have about 20 family members here and we love it. And people

stay for a week and David's a great chef. And, and we're doing all that this year because of, because of COVID and travel. And we have a lot of young family members and my mom's a little older and has some respiratory stuff. We're not hosting everybody. So we're still trying to figure it out. But I promise you, Megan, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want to do in my house with whoever ends up here. And it is no right of the government to tell me who I can have in my house or how we're going to behave in my house. And by the way, the only way we fight back is by police officers and other officials saying, hey, I don't want to spy on my neighbors. I don't want to bust into people's private homes. And that's what will take the power away from people like Gavin Newsom and Andrew Cuomo and Cuomo who had the gall to write, quote unquote, write a book about leadership in the midst of this thing as if he wrote it anyway. It's like, come on, man. It's insane. That was my Biden impression. You like that? Come on, man. Come on, man. Yeah, that does sound like Biden. Everything's got a man. Man.

So there is another guy, a sheriff in upstate New York. My people, upstate New York, he's from Fulton County. His name is Richard Giordino. The guy used to be a sitting judge, used to be a prosecutor, and now he's a sheriff, which I kind of love. I love that whole career path. But here's what he had to say about Cuomo's orders on Thanksgiving. I was coming out of a convenience store. We have them Stewart shops up here.

And a veteran, and I know he's a veteran because he had the baseball cap on, said to me, Sheriff, I got a question. Are you going to be enforcing the Thanksgiving limit of 10 people? And I said, what do you mean? He goes, well, my wife and I are arguing because we have Thanksgiving planned and there's 14 of us with our new grandchild that we haven't seen. And we haven't seen the family since April. I says, what are you concerned about? Well, you're going to send the police. We don't want our son getting in trouble because it is his house. And I realized the anxiety the

man had that we were going to be knocking on his door with law enforcement and check and see how many people are at Thanksgiving dinner. I said, sir, I'm not going to do that. You know, enjoy your family. We're not going to do that. We're not going to go door to door. We're not going to arrest your son. And so when I got back to the office, I said, I got to do something because the anxiety that this rule is causing is unbelievable. It's so good on him. He's not going to enforce it either. And we need more level-headed sheriffs. It's no surprise that law enforcement are being the measured ones here.

And these politicians are creating a sense of hysteria. That is a good man right there. And you're right. That's exactly what we need more of. That's what being a patriot is. I'm not going to arrest my fellow citizens for exercising their freedom on Thanksgiving, the day we're supposed to be thankful for all of the freedoms that we have in this incredible country. And the fact that they want to, they really do, they want to take away Thanksgiving from us. They want to take Christmas away from us.

And that's by design. There is a really twisted force out there right now. I don't know, did you ever see The NeverEnding Story by any chance? Remember The NeverEnding Story from the 80s? It's a children's movie in effect. But basically what it was about is that in this fantasy land of Fantasia, it's called, that the nothing is spreading. And nobody knows what the nothing is, but it's destroying everything. Wherever the nothing goes, everything is destroyed. There's, in effect, nothing there. What you realize at the end of the movie is the nothing is just that people stopped dreaming, people stopped believing, and people stopped being passionate. That created room for nothingness to

come in. That's what I feel like is happening right now. We're afraid of our own shadows. We're fighting with family members about politics and things that we have no control over. We're giving power to people who, for some reason,'s not to diminish the reality of COVID. But you can't also diminish that it's on you as a human being to figure out what is right for you and your family. Like you, Megan, will figure out what's right for your kids. And if you want to have your folks around or whatever else you want to do for your holiday, and that's the right way to do it. But instead we've decided, okay, a mom and pop store that sells home goods can't be open, but target can be open. Or they'll tell us 10 PM. You can hang out with 10 people outside till 10 PM, but then there's a curfew and you can't hang out with people after 10 PM. It's like, none of this makes sense. None of this is based on the virus is looking at its

watch and it knows at 10 PM to really come out and get them. So we really have to leave the streets. To me, it's infuriating, especially because of the schools and what's happening there in New York City. They just closed the schools again. And even Nick Kristof of The New York Times, who is no fan of President Trump's, came out with an opinion piece saying, credit where it's due, Trump was right on this. He's been demanding for months that the schools reopen and stay open. And he was right. The schools have not been a major source of the coronavirus transmission. Remote learning is a catastrophe for children, especially low-income children. And you look at what's happening with low-income kids, especially these Democrats are always trying to tell us they care more about that.

They don't have computers. They don't have Wi-Fi. A lot of them, hot meals. They only, they only get those at school. One eighth of the children are living with an addicted parent. The affluent kids get the leg up because they go to private school or they create these learning pockets where they pay a tutor to come in. It is inflicting long-term damage, long-term damage. And these politicians, they're saying it's necessary despite the zero transmission rate or thereabouts in schools. While they're out there at the damn restaurants, Dave, it's infuriating. It's absolutely infuriating. It's like, I don't ask the government to do much, you know, like I pretty much fall libertarian on anything and on everything. But the one thing that I would ask the

government to do is basically have some level of trustworthiness so that when things like this happen, we, we actually can all feel sensible. But the reason it's not just that everyone feels crazy right now because of the election, it's that everyone feels crazy right now because of the election. It's that everyone feels crazy right now because we've been cut off from each other. We live in Twitter more than we live in the real world. You walk by people at the supermarket and they have masks on their face and you can't tell if they're sneering at you or smiling at you. You throw sunglasses onto that and a hat and next thing you know, it's like, is this guy about to rob a bank or punch me in the head? Or is he saying hi to me? We were cutting off all of the human pieces

of what being human is all about. And it, and we're doing it as if any of these people strike us as really good, honest people. Like does Andrew Cuomo who's fighting with reporters now and, and Gavin Newsom and Lightfoot. Do they strike you as really great people that should have authority over your life? They don't strike me that way. And we give them more power. And we didn't even talk about big tech and all of this, but then we outsource all of our truth to big tech and what we can and can't say. And man, you can see why depression levels are at highs and suicide levels and alcoholism and drug use and all these things. What are we doing to 15?

The thing about Cuomo is he got so popular here in New York during the coronavirus shutdown because he came out and he seemed to be playing it straight. He seemed to be telling us the good, the bad, the ugly. You know, this is just the facts. And then we see him completely deceiving his audience and attacking reporters the other day when they knew they knew that New York City schools were about to close again. And and he was attacking the reporters who asked him about it. Actually, I think we have the exchange standby. So what are you talking about? How what are you talking about? You're now going to override. We did it already. That's the law. An orange zone and a red zone. Follow the facts. I'm still confused. Well, then you're confused. I'm

confused. And I'll tell you what, Jimmy. Parents are still confused as well. The schools. They're not confused. You're confused. No, I think parents are very confused as well. Read the law and you won't be confused. And he was denying that the schools were closing. And within 15 minutes, it was announced by the mayor of New York that they are closing again. And these cops, these teachers, these firefighters who have their kids in the public schools, they got no one to care for them. No one knows what they're going to do. And, you know, all we get are lies. It's it.

I saw a tweet today where somebody tweeted, what what should the government do during Biden's first term? And somebody responded, leave us the F alone. Yes. These are the reasons. These are the people who are the reasons why. Megan, what problem could you have in your life at this point that you would want the government to intervene? Now, if we were being invaded by an army, I would want the government to do something, right? Like I can't deal with that. My local community can't deal with that. But at this

point, what you can say to everybody, this is the fundamental difference, I guess, between lefties and people on the right. People on the right basically want to be left alone and say, oh, the system's all screwed up. People on the left say the system's all screwed up. Let's just give it enough more power. Let's just get the right people in. Let's just give it more money. I think that's just a fundamental flaw in thinking. My preference would be you strip away its power so that it can never go too off the rails. And the exchange, of course, there is that it can never do all the things that you want, but that's how you keep, that's how you keep a healthy tension in a society. But the simple truth is, I mean, can you think of anything?

Like what right now in your life would you go, I need the government to do that for me? What could be better done by the government than by private enterprise? Let's not forget Gavin Newsom, kids in private school. Elizabeth Warren, kids in private school. All of these people, kids in private school, while they also will tell you how, how important it is to get a, a, you know, a public education. Yeah, you're right. Only if bad guys invade, that's when I'd be looking at them. Now, listen, um, I know you got to go, but I'm thinking of you and David this holiday season. I'm going to, I'm going to sort of send some good

vibes out into the universe that you get good news just in time for Christmas, let's say, or just whenever you want it about possibly expanding your family. Thank you. Oh, really? Well, we should,

well, we should know in the next cup and David just walked into the room as he said that. So maybe that was a sign, but we should know, we should know in the next couple of days and I'll, I'll text you and we can, we can discuss it.

And hey, I just want to say one other thing. I'm so thrilled that you're back in the game because we needed you. We really did need you. All of us that are doing this, we all kind of float in space and we have these little moments where you kind of like dock with another ship and it feels stronger for a little while and then something happens and then you lose touch and everything else. But you have been such a stabilizing force when you were doing it mainstream. And then, and now just when you come back and I'm just thrilled that your show is working and that you're excited again, and that we've become friends. It's awesome. And I look forward, we still haven't met in person, which is just crazy. So I look forward to that. Thank you for saying that. I confess, I didn't even understand what the intellectual dark web was until I started to listen to you. And this is like this group of

people on the internet who are saying all the things that no one else will say and saying them freely and openly and discussing them, the free exchange of ideas. The more I learned, the more I wanted to be a part of it. And it is people like you who, you know, for a long time broadcasting out of your garage who created this lane. And I'm thrilled to be in this lane. And I do want to meet you and your husband, David, because I feel like we have a connection. We have for a long time, but it needs to be fortified in person and maybe even with more than 10 people. We'll see. I mean, that it needs to be fortified in person and maybe even with more than 10 people. We'll see. I mean, that would be the perfect cherry on top.

More than 10 people indoors because we're freedom extremists, Megan. Thanks again to Dave Rubin. Loved speaking with him. That was so fun. I want to tell you that today's episode was brought to you in part by Super Beats Soft Chews. Take two delicious chews a day for the health support and energy you need. Get yours today at superbeats.com slash MK. And don't forget to subscribe to the show right now and download it. Rate and review if you feel so kind, because our next show coming out on Wednesday is going to be with JD Vance. You know him, the author of Hillbilly Elegy. Well, they just made a movie about his life. And can I tell you, in all the interviews I have done since I became a journalist in 2003,

of all of them, the sit down I had with J.D. Vance while I was at NBC is my number one favorite. It is the piece I am most proud of in my career. So you can go ahead and Google that. I'm sure it's on YouTube if you want to take a look at it between now and Wednesday. But I can't wait to reconnect with him because this guy has been through it and he understands middle America

in a way very few people do. And he's going to help all of us understand it too. So don't miss that special edition going into the holiday on Thursday, and I'm really looking forward to it. See you soon. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.