The Megyn Kelly Show - Delta Force Operator John McPhee on Afghan War Stories, Keys to Leadership, and America as a Friend | Ep. 1080

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Megyn Kelly is joined by retired U.S. Army Special Operations Sergeant Major John McPhee, founder of SOB Tactical, to discuss how he got into the Army, the people who misjudged him along the way, why he loved basic training, his rise to the Army Rangers and Delta Force, his experience in Afghanistan killing hundreds of terrorists, what really happened with bin Laden, whether he could have been killed or captured just months into the conflict, the political implications of war, why Hegseth and Trump are right to fix the military, the keys to leadership, why Jiu Jitsu is a core element of keeping him sane and in survival mode, his tough childhood, living in a brothel, his relationship with his parents, and more. More from McPhee- https://sobtactical.com/ Riverbend Ranch: Visit https://riverbendranch.com/ | Use promo code MEGYN for $20 off your first order.Everglades Foundation: Learn more about President Trump’s Everglades support project at https://www.EvergladesFoundation.orgMasa Chips: Get 25% off your first order | Use code MK at https://MASAChips.com/MKFollow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow 

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. On this Memorial Day, we honor all of the brave men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice to keep the United States of America free and prosperous. As we do every Memorial Day, we are bringing you the story of a remarkable veteran and what a story this vet has. Joining me today is retired U.S. Army Special Operations Sergeant Major John McPhee, aka the Sheriff of Baghdad. John served our country for over 20 years, specializing in various special mission units and combat experience across multiple theaters, including Afghanistan and Iraq, where he hunted both Osama bin Laden

and Saddam Hussein. I would like to introduce you to a new brand of Angus beef. You can order it directly from Riverbend Ranch, which is located just a few miles from West Yellowstone, Montana. Riverbend Ranch raises their cattle a lot differently than most ranches. For example, they never use artificial growth hormones or antibiotics. They track the health of every animal from the day it is born and can guarantee that it has been healthy every day of its life. And they handle their animals humanely and with respect. But most important is the quality of the beef. You'll find it as tender and flavorful as the finest restaurants. And that's because they have spent the last 35 years selecting cattle for

tenderness and flavor, aging their beef to perfection for 21 days. The result is some of the most tender and flavorful beef you have ever tasted. You cannot buy beef like this in a grocery store. And since it is shipped directly from the ranch to your home, you get a much better price than going through the middleman. Order directly from riverbendranch.com. Use promo code Megan to get 20 bucks off your first order. That's riverbendranch.com, code Megan. And be prepared. Once you taste it, you're going to be coming back for more. Again, that's riverbendRanch.com, code Megan. John, great to have you. Thank you.

How are you doing? Pretty good, pretty good. Quite a lead up there. Well, my God, I mean, you've done a lot. I've tried, I've tried. When I say that, when you hear that intro read, given all the time that you spent serving the country, what's the one that you focus on?

Like, that's the one thing that really kind of defined the surface in my mind. Um, man, kind of none of that, I guess. You know what I mean? Like, uh, later in the war as leadership, like that was a challenge. You know what I mean? Those like the battle of Tora Bora, I was a new guy. Like, let's go kill everybody. You know what I mean? And then the war rages on you learn you're more experienced uh you just learn as it goes on you're gonna learn different lessons everybody's gonna do this uh and i think the lessons i learned as a young guy uh weren't the

lessons i needed really yeah everybody learns, right? Everyone makes mistakes. When I read your bio, I thought the opposite because you had a very rough childhood. Yeah. And I thought it made him one tough SOB. Maybe. Yeah.

And, you know, capable of doing what needed to be done in like the darkest days of Iraq and Afghanistan. Yeah. And I tell everyone this. I'm a regular, I tell, I tell everyone this, uh, I'm a regular guy. I do everything everyone else does. Uh, I joined the army and I think when, when nine 11 happened, I was too far in to like choose a different life. You know what I mean? Let's start back at the young John,

South side of Chicago. Yeah. Only white kid in the class. Yeah. For a long time. How'd that happen? I don't know. You get, you get in fights, you go to ding dong, they call it ding dong school. That's where kids that fight all the time. Uh, and you end up there. How did your parents settle in a neighborhood where you would wind up being the only white kid in class? That's where we lived. It's South Chicago. It's where we lived. You know what I mean?

I would say the South Chicago of the 70s, 80s was like a different place. So I know that you were very badly bullied on the bus every day. I heard you telling our pal Sean Ryan about that. I mean, it was every day they beat you up. Daily. Well, no, until they got me a cab.

I mean, it must have been bad for the South Side of Chicago school system to get you a cab every day to school. I think, yeah, yeah. It cost them a lot of money because the police would have to come to the bus on the side of the road. They'd have to break up the fight. And then the seats were broke, a window was broke. And then the school's got to pay for all of that. And then by the time we get to school, school would be over. How old were you? I don't know. Sophomore, freshman, maybe. Sophomore. I'm so sad. I have a freshman. And the thought of that happening to him every day is upsetting. I mean,

it's heartbreaking. Your parents never intervened. Did they know? Oh, they knew. Yeah. Did they do anything? What are they going to do? Get you out of there. That would have been a good idea. They probably never thought of that. That's a good idea. So what was the story? Were they just young? Substance abuse? No, I think my parents were young.

I think my mom was, I don't know, maybe always kind of maybe just bitter as a lady. You know what I mean? She was like the mean divorced lady most of the time. And I just think that's how people thought their lives should be. I don't know. Do you have siblings? Yeah, I have a brother. Is he older or younger? Older.

So did he go through this too? Yeah, but he's just a little older than me. But I just can't imagine like a mother allowing this to just keep happening to her child. Yeah. Well, here I am. You know what I mean? What are you going to do? Did you like maintain, I know you wound up living in a brothel, which is another interesting story, but did you keep contact with your mom?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My whole life. Is she still around? No, she died. I don't know. A while ago.

So you, did you, were you close? Um, I mean, yeah, as close as you could kind of be with someone that you know is always like mean, bitter. Wow. You know what I mean? What happened in her life that left her there i don't know i don't got the energy to like hang on to that much shit you know what i mean yeah good yeah so no we always joke my um husband's brother they're presbyterian and he always jokes when you're when you're thinking about something like that push it down push it down yeah he's not wrong. I mean, on some things you got to let it go. Like letting it go is the better way. You know what I mean? But the beatings that would be tough to let go. I mean, I just feel like,

did that create any resentment in you? Um, I don't know. Yes. Uh, I mean, of course it did. It did. It didn't. I mean, look, I look at it this way. I turned out the way I turned out. Um, and I think anybody in, in the situations I was in would come out the same way. And then you have to realize like, uh, you gotta want to choose good. You know, it's easy for people to be bad. And I say this all the time. No one has bad intent, but shit gets fucked up. Oh, can I say that? Yeah, you can. Yeah. I wouldn't have had you on if you couldn't say that word. That's your favorite word. Yeah, I know. Right. Uh, I'm trying to be nice, but shit gets fucked up. So, you know, I don't think my parents have bad intent. I don't think there were bad people. I think they were young. I think they drank, you know, anytime you drink, like, you

know, I used to drink a ton, uh, but, uh, anytime you drink, like, you know, of course there's going to be drama. That's it. It, it takes your filters away. You know what I mean? Like it's probably a better way to deal with and telling someone just, you know, so I think it's just like a product of being young. I don't think anyone had a bad intent. I just think it, it is what it is. And, and I tell you, it's probably, it's generational. I mean, I'm not the only one, you know what I mean? But I would say it's generational. And I'd say there's kids in the same neighborhoods living about the same life and their parents were probably in school with me. You know what I mean?

And I think that's just how it works. It's like a cycle. Does it create like a resentment toward black people? No, I don't resent anybody. If you have black schoolmates beating you up every day? No. How do you get past that? I could see how that would cause some, you know.

I was the easy target. Like, you know, later in school, I didn't get beat up every day because I realized I learned to fight. I could protect myself. And like a lot of the actual gang leaders in that, like they respected that. And so I didn't really have, I had to earn my way in, I guess. But once I earned my way in, it was fairly easy for me. I mean, and I look at it this way is like, you know, look, you could be the victim. Okay, great. What's next? What's

that going to do you? How long are you going to do that for? You know what I'm saying? I'm guessing that, um, given the way you described the school system there, you were not on the college track and you knew that. Yeah, pretty much. Did you know you're going to wind up in the armed forces though? Was that a goal? Um, you know, I knew I wanted to join. I kind of joined late. I was almost 21, but, uh, I wanted to join, but, um, I didn't know like when, you know what I mean? And then one day I was just like, fuck it, let's go. Okay. We'll get to that. But, um, I've got to spend a minute on the brothel since I mentioned it. How does, how did two guys, two kids wind up living in a brothel? Well, um, I don't know. You know, they say hookers have a heart of gold. You know what I mean? Is that what happened? A hooker took you in? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, we weren't the only kids,

you know what I mean? But, um, yeah. You weren't? No. Who else was in there? How many kids did they have? She had kids. So me and my brother helped raise other kids, stuff like that. Well, what happened to your parents? Me and my brother decided we would be better on our own. How old were you here? I don't know, 12, 13, maybe pre-high school.

So you went back with your parents by 15 when the bus situation was happening? No, I went to school myself. Okay. Walk me through it. So you're growing up, you're with your parents until around 12, and then you wind up living at a brothel. Me and my brother, yeah. How'd you get connected with this woman running the brothel? Well, I was living with my, I guess my step-mom. Anyway, it's a mess, you know, but I was living with my step-mom and then me and

my brother just moved over there and they were nicer to me than anyone else I knew. You know what I mean? So, and was that what you were there for the duration until you hit 18? Uh, no, I was only there for a little bit. Um, let's see what else happened. Um, I don't know. I didn't live there that long. Like just, I don't know, high school, some, most of my high school years, but that was it. Okay. Yeah. So now you got to find a direction once you hit 18, right? You got to do something. Well, I always worked. I've been working since I was a little kid. I was a welder. I worked on trucks. So that's another thing I did is I always showed up to work on time, put myself to work, like earn money. You had a couple of skills that are

completely foreign to me, like being good with an engine and being a good navigator. Yeah. I don't, I think you're born with that. You're not born with that. Am I wrong? I don't know. Maybe. Did you always have that ability, that sense of navigation? Cause like you really needed it. It would become very important to you. It would. In your military service. I am very good at navigation. I don't know. I guess you're born with it because I would have never thought and I've never not been good at it.

Have you, have you, do you get lost a lot? Never. I've always lost. Are you? You don't understand when you don't have this gift.

It's so frustrating. I'm at the point when I drive, whatever my instinct is, I know to do the opposite, like a George Costanza situation. Like I just know, do not, whatever my instincts are telling me, it's wrong when it comes to directions. I'm missing this chip.

You could get a GPS. Well, I do. Thankfully I live in 2025. Yeah. Nowadays, like I could get lost nowadays. I'd say that only because like, I just listened to the lady on my phone turn left. Okay. Yes. Uh, so, but no, I have a pretty good sense of direction like maybe it's natural i don't know so what during these formative years before we go off and join the military are you do you're dating is there a special woman in your life no not really nobody no like you hadn't been in love yet um yeah no i pretty much avoided people most of my childhood. You know what I mean? Did anything happen in the brothel that would deflower you or?

No comment. Okay. Just saying, it seems like an obvious thing to do. Okay. So you originally wanted to join the Air force. Why? Uh, well, I was a mechanic, right? Uh, very mechanically inclined. Uh, I was a welder as well. I fixed a lot of semi trucks, broken frames, um, dump trucks, whole wall collapse stuff. And it'd take me like weeks to rebuild these trucks, but it's kind of what I did. And then, um, and then, yeah, uh, I figured I could do this for the air force. You know what I mean? And then, uh, the biggest thing could do this for the Air Force. You know what I mean? And then the biggest thing was, like, my hands were, like, always black, like cracked fingers.

Like, you're always welding. It's always dirty, greasy, dirty stuff working on these trucks, right? And, like, honestly, my thought was no girl is ever going to let me put my hand in her pants if she sees my hand. You know what I mean? There's just it's not happening. Does that stuff not come off with the right soap? I don't care how much soap you got. Like when you work like that, like your hands are black. So, yeah, so I figured I got to do something else. You know what I mean? Like I just can't do this forever, you know, only because I was always dirty every day and you couldn't, you couldn't like not be

dirty. Like even your days off, you couldn't wash and you weren't clean. You know what I mean? So I figured, well, maybe now's the time to join the army. And so what happened at the air force? They said, uh, I didn't have high enough skills to, uh, be a mechanic, which I was, uh, they told me, uh, I could be admin and I'm like, okay, what's that? Maybe I'll do this. What's the admin? And, um, he was like, well, you type memos, maybe process awards. And I was like, my mom's a secretary. Like, that's what that sounds like. I'm out, you know? Yeah.

Talk about misjudging a man. Yeah. And they're like, hey, son, have you talked to the Marines of the Army yet? And I'm like, no, I didn't even think of it, you know? So I went to the Army. Why the Army? Well, a buddy of mine was an airborne ranger and said how great it was. So I just went down there and told him I wanted to be an airborne ranger.

Did they give you a hard time? Oh, yeah. They did too? Oh, yeah. Everyone's giving you a hard time. Oh, yeah. Why? Well, I had like a, so first off, I had a mullet.

But who didn't have a mullet then? You know what I mean? What year are we in now? We got to be like 90s? 80, no, 90, 89 is when I was talking to the crew. Yeah, you're my age, I think. Yeah, yeah. So I had a mullet and they're like, you know, guys like, yo, Bob, hey, this guy wants to be a ranger.

And they come out and they like laughed at me. Don't they shave your head anyway? What do they care what your hair looks like? I don't know. But yeah, I was just like this skinny mullet head kid, you know, and they didn't believe in me, but I didn't care, you know. Right. You might have been used to that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. I figured, I figured, well, Bob was a fat, bald guy anyway. So like, you know, Bob, you're not impressive. And the guy I was talking to seemed like a dullard. So it's not

like these guys impressed me. I just knew there was more to the army. You know what I mean? So this is all before 9-11, you know, you're, you're signing up, but you don't know exactly what you're signing up for. I assume it's just, I want to be part of the military. Yeah. I had no idea. I didn't know if I was doing like in my day, I was like, you sign up for the college money. You know what I mean? Like people did. Uh, I didn't know why I signed up and I definitely didn't think I needed college money whatsoever. You know what I mean? Um, but I, I joined, uh, all my family, you know, turned out it's like a family business, but my, I joined, uh, all my family, you know, turned out it's like a family business, but my grandpa was both my grandpa's my great grandpa, world war two. Like,

so, uh, it turned out a lot of people in my family were in the service and like, no one really talked about it. You know what I mean? That's pretty cool. Yeah. So you escalated up the ranks. It seems to me pretty quickly. You like, you you got moved from thing to thing, challenge to challenge, some of which were a surprise to you, but it didn't sound like you had a lot of failures as you were making your name. Tons. You did? Daily.

Daily failure. Oh, yeah. Lay, fail quick. Let's get it over with. Maybe we'll get it right by the end of the day. How did you do in like the military setting? Because I would think with your background, you weren't exactly big on rules. I don't like rules. Yeah. So how'd you, I mean, that that's gotta be a problem in basic training.

Um, not really. I mean, it's a game, you know what I mean? And their trash talk was great, man. Basic training. Like you enjoyed that. Oh God. They would like yell at people. And like, I just be, I'd be like not even getting yelled at. And I'd start laughing and they'd just be like, uh, my drill sergeant called me Maffie. And he'd be like, Maffie do pushups. And I just start doing pushups. Cause he'd hear me laughing. Like, oh man, the trash talk was great. Like loved it. You were born for that. Little did they know impossible to upset you. Yeah. Well, they couldn't upset me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I feel like at this point in life, is it hard to upset you? You've been through so much

military wise and childhood wise. I mean, you know, like we got to look, if you want stuff, you got to do it yourself. It's called responsibility. It doesn't matter your age. I call it adulting. I hate it, but I've been doing it for a long time. So if you want something, you got to put in the work. Does anybody irritate you? Like, do you get irritated? Oh yeah. You do. Yeah.

Okay. So you're not beyond everybody. You know what I mean? Like, do you like everybody? No, no. It's such a long list of people. I just like, see, there you go. But I cover politics for a living.

So it's, your list is longer than mine. Very long. Okay. So let's go back. So then you, we enter over to the army. They take you, you're going through basic training. People are getting yelled at and you're enjoying that. And what's the plan? Just like, see what they do with you. Uh, well, yeah, well, I had a ranger contract, so I go through basic training, airborne school, and then I go to rip. Explain what Ranger is. Uh, the Ranger regiment is,

uh, it's its own unit in the army, their infantry basically. Um, and, um, nowadays they're tier one unit. Back in my day,

they were just like, uh, specialized infantry or whatever they called them. Right. But, uh, yeah, the Ranger regiment is a

way of life uh and then back in my day was rip is what they called it and like basic training was a joke we jog in the morning and sing songs it's like summer camp you know in rip like a some random looking dude just takes off faster than you've ever seen another human being running. You're just like, holy shit. Like these guys do this. Let's go. Yeah. Real talk, you know? And then like the whole time, like, I mean, I didn't know if I was going to make it or not. I was just doing my best. How long is the training? Oh, it was three weeks back then. Okay. But it's intense. Yeah. Back then it was. Yeah. And back then it was more about creating guys that won't quit than it was like training you at your actual job. Now from there, you joined special forces. How long did that take? Uh, I did five years in Ranger Battalion.

And then like the, the sergeant major at the time was like sending people to like Korea or some random army shit that I wanted nothing to do with. What did you want? I'm not that. Like combat? Not that. You know what I mean? Didn't never wanted to go to Korea.

I heard it's cold. And like, anyway, never wanted to go there. Sorry. No offense. Where were you in the States? I was in Savannah, Georgia. Okay. Yeah.

See what I'm saying? Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. So especially when you grew up in Chicago. Right. Yeah. Yeah. For once. Yes. Uh, so, uh, love Savannah. Right. And I didn't want to go anywhere. So I figured I'd hit special forces selection. At least it would like give me a path where I might control my ending. Can you talk about that? Cause as a civilian, you hear special forces and you think oh it's

cool something cool is happening like he knows shit like he's done stuff yeah what what did it mean to you oh i don't know i mean like it's okay i like special forces why do it like when you were back a range oh yeah like lure i don't know like the john wayne shit when i was a kid right like badass yeah like rambo, right? Like, that's what I thought. Kind of, uh, in the middle nineties, not really what was happening, but, uh, later on it got better, more towards a G-WOD, everything got better. What do you mean you thought it would put you in charge of your own? Uh, well, if I went to special forces selection, I know I would go there next versus like coming down on orders for Korea one

day. You know what I mean? Just like, Hey, guess what came some paperwork for you. Korea. Holy shit. No fucking way.

Right. Yeah. Uh, so I wanted to like avoid that. So how do you get into special forces? You got to go to selection. They got selection. Like it's like a tryout.

Yeah. What does selection mean? Uh, it's not a lot of stupid shit. You know i mean like it's one day you show up oh no it's like a run no okay special forces selection kind of works like this it's based off a team and you got to work in a team right and it's 12 guys in a in a a, a team, a special forces, a team. Right. Uh, and then, so you're kind of grouped in 12 guys and then like, you do like random stuff. Like you got to build these, they'll give you like one wheel, some pipe and a 500 pound barrel. And it's like, it's got, you got to take it 20 miles that way. Go. It's very MacGyver-y. Very MacGy very mcgyvery right and then you have the right

background for this too though yeah but i you're not in charge every day and then if someone bad's in charge and they talk about they do stupid shit you're stuck doing their stupid shit all day long i was on the worst team ever i think in selection oh no some of those guys might be listening to this right now i don't care they were pussies know what I mean? Like I do not give a shit. You know what I mean? It's probably where that, why they are where they are now. You know what I mean? They were bringing you down, trying to hold me back. So you, you made it though. You got select. So you get selected to then train into special forces. Yep. And then they call it the Q course. Oh, and is what's that like? The qualification, uh, a lot of, I was an engineer, so that's the explosives, but we do a lot of other stuff,

like building stuff. Like basically you're a general contractor for like houses. They teach you that stuff. Oh, that's useful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super useful.

Right. And then explosives and a lot of explosive stuff. What's Delta Force? And when did you try out for that? So, yeah, the mid-90s, special forces, you know, the Bill Clinton army kind of sucked. No ammo, no training, no money, right? So a buddy of mine, I was at his house. I don't know, I was on leave. Uh, we were drinking, smoking cigars and

he just gave me, um, uh, a yellow sticky with a time and place. So I was like, what's this? And it was like this field on post. So he's like, yeah, you're going to be there at six in the morning. It's like, it's like midnight, man. No way. I ain't going nowhere at six in the morning. Right. I went, um, and, uh, he talked me in a go and he was a Mogadishu guy. And, um, I went and that's it. I passed. Yeah. So that was you in special forces trying to make it on the Delta force, which is yet another sort of next elite level. But in my day, you didn't know what Delta force was. Like if someone went there is a black hole, you just never seen them again. You didn't even know they were alive.

You know what I mean? So why'd you do it? Why'd you show up at 6 a.m.? What else was I going to do? Sometimes I do my best work hungover. What's up? How was the, how hard was the tryout or the? Oh, so first off, it ain't easy.

I'm going to say that. But at the same time, it's fucking great, man. They leave you alone. You walk through the mountains. Like, yeah, yeah. I'm here. You got to go. Like, I don't know.

Like you have maps. You ever see like the big forest? I'm already sweating. That's making me nervous. I know. It's probably the worst thing you want to hear. I would never make it. But like you'd have maps and they're like this big.

And like the guy would give you a point and you'd be like, wait, wait. And you're like, you got like five of these. And you're like, I got to go like three of these maps today, man. You know what I mean? That's a nightmare. Yeah. And then you just go. I mean, maybe they knew even before Bin Laden knew where you were going to wind up.

But that was perfect training for what ultimately would be asked of you. Yeah, 100%. I was ready. Were you in Delta Force when 9-11 happened? Yeah. Okay. So you're doing your training, what, still down in Savannah? I was at Bragg, Fort Bragg. Okay. And then, well, 9-11, I was trying to skydive to go to a free fall jump master school.

Teach people to skydive of course you were that's what i do so what happened on 9-11 were you what was your reaction to that day well the first plane i was like like it looked like a little plane crashed in you know we didn't know some drunken idiot in his in his little plane crashed in right and then the second was like oh shit and then we were grounded and that was it you know then you knew second was like oh shit and then we were grounded and that was it you know then you knew it was like something bad you know you knew but unlike the rest of us you actually were gonna have to answer the call i mean does that is that exciting is it nerve-wracking is it everything uh it's a lot of things but i would say this is, uh, I was too far in not to go. You know what I mean? I was excited. I was

nervous. You know, like the whole, I say this all the time. People are going to have a thousands emotions today, right? Like it's just how people work. You'll have a thousand emotions. Don't let it stop on the bad ones. You know what I mean? I know what you mean, but it's harder to do than actually, you know, it sounds. Maybe. I don't know. You know, people get stuck. They get stuck in sort of obsessive thinking, especially if their life might be on the line. Yeah, people get stuck. So how do you rejigger that if that's you and you get stuck on something?

Smack them in the back of the head. Sometimes you need that. You know what I mean? Sometimes I need that. You know what I mean? Snap them out of it. So what was the first word you had that you were getting deployed and to where? Um, well, there's a lot of things happening between nine 11 and before we deployed. Uh, I think the original plan is we were supposed to save some hostages in Kabul. Uh, and then we ended up doing the Tora Bora thing. So what we trained for and what happened were completely different animals you know what i mean do you know why that's the way the cookie crumbles you know what i mean like follow what they tell you let's go you know what i mean you're not in charge someone else is making the calls you just got to do your best when the time comes

was tora bora then the first place you went yeah tora bora wow yeah all right can tell us about that tell us what was that how did that just describe it because i've heard you talk about it sounds i mean like you were looking for bin laden yeah so yeah we were looking for bin laden um the tora bora was like a stronghold uh for bin laden-Qaeda, whatever they would call themselves, right? And the Russians could never get in there, right? And I think somebody, I don't know who said it, but it took 10 of us 10 days. To do what? To get everybody out of those mountains.

Either kill them or have them come out and surrender. But it took 10 of us 10 days. The Russians never took it. They had 10,000 soldiers, you know? So how we do that? We bombed the shit out of those guys. You know what I mean? Thanks to all your explosives training? No, there was more like air force stuff. You know what I mean? Unfortunately, not my, I mean, if I had to blow them up one at a time, like that would be awesome. But we bombed them.

So it was more of an Air Force thing. We had a call on the radio for bomb. Was that deployment, that moment when you showed up in Tora Bora the first time, you ever killed a man? Yeah. Yeah, war. Like, let's go. We killed hundreds of people on the first day. Like, I can't tell you how many

people died or, you know what I mean? They're just everywhere. Side of the mountains. Like, and then sometimes guys get blowed up. There's only pieces, you know what I mean? And, and they'd just be on the side of the mountain. Like, what do you do? Like, well, how does that, does that affect you at all as a, you know, as a man, or is it just, no, I'm a soldier? Um, I mean, you know, you come, you, I'll tell you this, you want to come to a gunfight and you end up dead. It's your fault. You know what I mean? They started it.

Well, and it's the Delta force. You're going to die. Like, it's not going to be a good look for you. You know what I mean? So, uh, yeah, I just felt like, uh, all those guys needed to die. Like they're evil. You know what I mean? Like it's evil to just like, uh, you know, Afghanistan in general, it's like biblical times with trucks and cell phones. Like they do fucked up shit. You know what I mean? So the, I don't, there's no doubt in my mind that these guys needed to die.

You know? Were they connected to Bin Laden? Yeah. All his like inner guys. You know what I mean? Yeah. So in 10 days you managed to route out this, this mountain area that nobody else had gotten to, the Russians included.

And then what? Well, Bin Laden wrote a death letter. He wrote a death letter. It's on the internet, but he wrote a letter. He thought he was going to die. Is this the one where he was, is this a different letter from the one that the morons were circulating on TikTok about a year and a half ago saying, this is amazing.

He's so smart. He's got such good reasons for attacking us. Did that happen? I don't know. Yeah. You really wouldn't, you should stay off the internet and you should not get to know Gen Z.

I don't think you'll be happy. I don't do any social media. Well, so what happened? Because you didn't find bin Laden there, but you found all of his henchmen. Yeah. You killed him. Yeah.

And then are you like done? Because bin Laden's still out there. A fucking ceasefire. A fucking ceasefire. Someone called a ceasefire. And someone called a ceasefire. And I would also say, uh, there's a couple of helicopters flew over the battlefield, which I still to this day, don't know who they were. Oh, you think he was escaping? I look at it this way. Um, if, if the first 10 days of the war, 10 guys kill bin Laden,

where's the war on terror at? Oh, this is interesting. The checkbook would have never got opened. Oh, that's really interesting. That's what I think. So you're pretty cynical about our military industrial complex. I wouldn't say cynical. Like, I mean, I enjoyed my time.

I love grenades. You Like, I mean, I enjoyed my time. I love grenades. You know what I mean? Uh, but, uh, I do think like the rug was pulled out from under us. Well, I mean,

it definitely was at the end, but we, you're, are you talking about right here right now when you're trying to, you don't think that the military brass wanted you to find him. They wanted it to go on and on. No, I think someone else intervened

and put him in hiding. Someone who owned helicopters. Regular people own helicopters. Who owns helicopters? You know what I mean? And then how come I've never heard about this anywhere else? I don't know. No one wants to talk about this. I know. Right. See what I'm saying? But I mean, are you talking about, like I say, the military-industrial complex, like one of these big contractors? Or are you talking about us? Us-us? I don't know. I mean, you can make your own guesses. You know what I'm saying? But I would say this is like, okay, where's the story between where he lived in Pakistan and Tora Bora? Where's that story also, by the way? I want to know that story.

Do we know? I have no, I have no idea. Yeah. No. You ever heard anything? No. We need this, like these JFK files. Let's go. You know what I mean? You actually have a shot at it right now with this administration. Well, there you go. You talk, you know, these guys. I got a friend over at the Pentagon. There you go. I mean, we can get to the bottom of that. There you go. Well, that's, I mean, unfortunately, and I, and totally understandably, so many of our veterans are asking these questions now, including Sean. You know, I haven't talked to him at length about his questions about who are the good guys.

Oh, we're not. I don't think we are at all. You don't. I don't think we're good friends. Why? I think we deal on a short timeline, a four year timeline. And I think everyone else has like been in charge for 50 years. You know what I mean?

And they've seen us flip flop back and forth and we pull, we push, we tug a war with the rope. It never ends out good. We're not good friends. And then as soon as you don't do what you, we want, we're going to chuck you under the bus and move the fuck on. You know what I mean? Like, give me an example. I don't know. Tons of stuff. You know what I mean? I'm giving you an example right now where these helicopters at, where's the story of bin Laden till from Abbottabad where that's where the

officers are trained in pakistan interesting right and how did he get out of afghanistan he's on dialysis you mean this guy walked over 14 000 foot mountains in the snow with his little woolen blanket and his dialysis machine but left all his people behind. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But I think George Bush said dead or alive, and I think the Pentagon was risk adverse. And I think that's where the disconnect was at that time. But I think someone else stepped in and took bin laden into hiding and when we

found him in 2010 in my exact time it was it was 20 i think 11 i was on maternity leave with it was an election year so you think that was by design yeah yeah they were yeah he was more useful he was more useful dad obama needed to get reelected. It's time. And so allowed, surprised, allowed him to be killed. Yeah.

So is that just your gut having been in the army for 20 years or? Hell yeah. I mean, that's like, that's the worst possible, like take on our commander in chief and what they might do. Like in danger, continue a war where guys are getting killed, their limbs blown off.

What, to improve your, so you can get the election under your belt? It's just so. It's the way it works. Oh my gosh, it's so horrible to even consider. I mean, it's the way it works. Well, if I had been over there and seeing my guys blown up, I think I'd be very angry if I believe believe this i'd be very fucking pissed off are you angry i mean believing

this i mean being angry wouldn't get me a cup of coffee you know what i'm saying i know but either you feel it or you don't if you you know um i look at it this way i I had a great time. I did everything I could. Uh, I did as much as I could every time I could. And I always try to do the right thing, uh, at the same time, like I can't control everything. You know what I mean? And then, uh, doesn't make me mad. Sure. Do I hate that? Like, you know, uh, that, uh, the politicians disagree on something and it costs your son his life. Right. Like ridiculous. Right. But at the same time, like I was having the time of my life, so I wasn't questioning shit. You know, anytime you drink from the bottle of hindsight, everything gets clearer. You know what I mean? But at the time, like I didn't question it.

I just want to, I was on to the next, like, uh, war was my life, you know, and I was good at it and I saved lives. I saved a ton of lives in war. Um, all those things combined kept me back coming back to it, whether it's right, wrong, indifferent, like, uh uh these are things that i can't control so why even dwell on it you know what i mean it's it's almost it's and then you'll get stuck in there it's muddy water you'll get stites quicksand you'll sink in it like why this why that like why ask why you haven't been through therapy. This is just your own thinking.

I don't go to therapy. No, I assumed. Do you know a therapist? I do. I actually know a really good one, but I don't think you need him. I don't think so. You got your head on your shoulders. I try. That's life therapy right there.

I don't know. Somehow you managed to get a really clear view on all of this, but so many guys I've talked to them come back traumatized. Well, I call it the last chapter. They're stuck in the last chapter. You know what I mean? Like they can't get out of that chapter and whether, but what really happens is like the story's not over. You know what I mean? I mean, I was under the age of 40 doing all that stuff. Well, I've had a lot more years. So your life never gets better. You're never going to enjoy anything again. Get out of that chapter and write

a new chapter. Is it in part the adrenaline rush that you miss? It's tough to recreate that in civilian life. Yeah. It's more than the adrenaline rush. You know what I mean? It's so much more. I mean, when you're really good at something, it's all you want to do. And when you know guys are really good at something, you could save lives by sending guys that are really, really good at this. You know what I mean? So, uh, I think it's just one of those things where it's, it's a calling and it's not really your choice. You know what I mean? But at the same time, it's a choice you got to make. When were you in Tora Bora? Um, I don't know, December of 90 or no, oh one. And then you went back, right? Yeah, I went back to Tora Bora, yeah. When'd you go back? Just a few months later in 2002, I went back. And was that your solo? How did you wind up solo in Tora Bora? Pretty easy.

I needed Pop-Tarts. Okay, I heard that you mentioned the Sunshine Ride. Yeah, I was getting Pop-Tarts. So I need to clarify this. You wanted the Pop-Tarts and there was something else. What was the other thing? Beef jerky? Beef jerky. Okay. You needed this. So you convinced them to send you on some mission back to like the chow hall to get the stuff? I just told my boss like, hey, are we doing anything tonight? I'll schedule the helicopter

and I'll go to the chow hall. I'll have our guy fill our truck. Okay. Then I got lost. What happened? You never went back with the Pop-Tarts and the beef jerky? I did. Weeks later. But it seemed like you got sucked into this unit that had the good food.

Yeah. And then you were off to the races. Well, it was where everyone was. It was where all the guys were. Okay. First off, the DEFA, when they deployed like they have beef jerky they have the defa the defo what's that delta for delta wars the d-o-d-o the d-o-d-o i'm like who was he but anyway like uh you're the highest army unit you have beef jerky you have pop tarts you have

you know what i mean? Like stuff army guys like might see once a month, we should be getting every day. Cause they're serving cappuccinos. Yeah. And then like the food is really good because we have our own cooks and they care about what you eat. You know what I mean? So it's a, it's good. It's, it's, it's the army system, but it's within the army system, which makes it a little better. Right. So I was just going to go get some pop tarts and really it's just a resupp which makes it a little better right so i was just gonna go get some pop tarts and really it's just a resupply run so i drive my toyota truck on a helicopter they fly me to bagram and then um one of the commanders the guy that wrote kill bin laden

was like hey what are you doing and i'm like i'm stealing pop right i'm here for food yeah and uh he was like you want to go on a mission? And I was like, yeah, I was like, well, you got to call my boss. And he's like, okay, I'll call him. And he did. And then, um, I was like, what is it? You know what I mean? They're like, we want you to go out alone. And I'm like, this sounds risky. Okay. Just happened. Like you were just there getting the pop tarts and they were like, you know, you're, you'd be good for this. Yeah. Wow. And you, this is what kind of, you wanted to do anyway, be on your own, make your own decisions. Oh, I didn't know if I wanted to, like never thought about it before then, but it, it turns

out something I do well. So what was the mission? Why did you have to go out by yourself? Why couldn't you have others? Well, uh, this goes back to the, the politics of it is the general at the time wouldn't let us to do it, to hit a target in Afghanistan. We needed us eyes on. Makes sense. So how do you get us eyes on?

You have to send out reconnaissance guys. And that's what I did. Right. And then, um, but you can't, no one can leave the wire. What's the wire, the perimeter, the base. You can't, no one can leave the wire. What's the wire? The perimeter, the base. You can't. So the general's like, no one can leave the base, but you got to launch reconnaissance to get USIs on.

Someone's going to have to leave the base. Someone's going to have to leave the base. And that was you. Was there another guy or is it just you? Well, the only reason they sent me is they kept me in, because I was coming from one base to another and outstationed to a major base. I was in transit. So they just kept me in because I was coming from one base to another and outstationed to a major base. I was in transit.

So they just kept me in transit for weeks. Yeah. You're like, who knows? We have no idea where John is. So basically they had a lie about what I was doing. You're just really on a search for that beef jerky. Right? You're not giving up.

No. The guys back at the original place were probably like, where the hell are the Pop-Tarts? They were in my truck. So, okay. They get them later. So then how long is this solo mission back through Tora Bora? Probably took me 10 days-ish. Why are you going back there when we already blew up the people?

Well, the last guy to supposedly help bin Laden out of the valley just came back from Pakistan with him and his sons. With bin Laden and his sons or with his own? No, his own sons. His own sons, yeah, okay. Supposedly during the Battle of Tora Bora, because he lived near there, he was the facilitator of getting people in and out of there. Okay, so we wanted to kill him or we wanted to capture him? We wanted to capture him because we thought maybe he brought bin Laden out of there. Okay. So the last lead for bin Laden was

this guy. Cause we have everybody else, all his people, his bodyguard, his cook, his everybody. So do they tell you where you're going and then it's just up to you to get yourself there? Yeah. Do they show you that spot on the map? I got it. And you're like, I got to figure this out. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So they're like, we believe we know where he is.

Yeah. Now, good luck to you. Yeah. Go find him. And it. How? Pretty simple. Like, it's only one valley.

Like, and there's only, you know what I mean? There's only, I had already been there. That's one of the things. All right. So I kind of knew the area. I knew the terrain. Right. And it's like, oh, I know that. That's one of the things. Right. So I kind of knew the area. I knew the terrain. Right. And it's like, oh, I know that.

Were there bad guys trying to kill you everywhere? Everywhere. Yeah. So how do you get past them? Bad guys? Like in checkpoints? Yeah. You act like a retard.

Like an American though, right? They knew you were an American? No. They thought you were one of them? Yeah. What? Yeah. How's that possible?

You're as pasty as I am. I have a big, because of Russians raped people, people look like me in Afghanistan. Lots of them. Oh, wow. I didn't think of that. Yeah. So you would act like a local and like a nutcase and they'd let you walk right by? All the time.

What would acting like a nutcase look like uh well the so like this guy the first time happened i mean this guy like jams his ak in my chest and it's like like i'm supposed to say something and i just figured if i speak american right now i'm dead that's it you know what i mean so i figured well i'll act like a retard. And I figured, okay, how would a retarded guy sound? First off, it'd be volume 11, right? So loud, you don't even want to listen. And then it'd be mongoloid stuff. So I was just kind of like, and the guy's like, move along.

Yeah. Did you have your AK? Yeah. Did he know that? Yeah. Oh, so he knew like, it's not unusual to be armed there, even if you're not. Everybody. Everybody's armed.

Okay. Yeah. Everyone's armed. That's incredible. Yeah. So you find the destination and did you get eyes on the guy? Yeah. Videotaped too.

I recorded it. And that was the mission. Don't take him out. Don't try to kidnap him. Just tell us if he in fact is there. Mm-hmm. So now you got the evidence. Mm't take him out. Don't try to kidnap him. Just tell us if he, in fact, is there. So now you got the evidence. Was that a moment? Like when you saw him, you're like, holy shit.

Did you know it was him, first of all? Or could it be some rando? Well, when I was in a truck with a bunch of people, no one knows I'm American. As we drove by, I put my video camera under my arm and I video camera the house and like dude was on the front porch. Luckily. So you got a good shot of him. All of it. Yeah. All of it got everything I needed. Are you sure? Cause I would imagine in the moment I've been sort of not in this circumstance, but I've not long ago did this undercover video of somebody. And I was like, Oh, I hope I got the shot. You don't know until you can go check it later,

but this is a very important shot to get. Dude was on the porch. It was perfect. You knew you had it. Yeah. Did you recognize him? Uh, no,

I didn't know. Okay. I didn't know. You found out later that you did in fact get the guy. Yeah, correct. So then did we get him? Yeah.

Okay. And do you think it was instrumental in getting us to bin Laden? Uh, no, it wasn't. It was not. Madam CIA analyst whose name we still don't know was not using that particular information and figuring out where bin Laden was. I don't, I don't know what any of that means, but, uh, uh, it did not help. He had no idea. Okay. All right. So what does that mean for you? Anything? Does that make you feel disappointed about it or like, well, I always thought, well, I thought at the time, like a, they were going to find out he was like dead in a cave later. You know what I mean? I just figured we blew him the smithereens. It might be hard to

find the parts. You know what I mean? Uh, so, and then I figured one day the truth will come out. I kind of always knew that. So. Well, when you heard about the raid and you saw Barack Obama on television that night, what was your reaction? I thought it was great. You did? Yeah. I thought it was great. I mean, I mean, for whatever reason Obama had, I thought it was great. And then I can tell you this, if I was commander in chief, the minute I heard that, I'd be like, go smoke that fool now. You know what I mean? Yep. End of discussion.

Since President Trump's election, the eyes of the nation have been on Mar-a-Lago and the free state of Florida. It's a thriving, booming place. South Florida is a special place because of its amazing water for boating, swimming, fishing, and drinking. Today, clean water is endangered by toxic algae. You may have heard of red tide or blue-green algae. It can be dangerous and it can be gross. In his first term, President Trump signed a law to solve this problem with a new reservoir south of Lake Okeechobee to keep clean, fresh water flowing constantly to South Florida. President Trump said after years of rebuilding other nations,

we're finally rebuilding our nation. Washington can finish the job in next year's budget and keep President Trump's promise. The Everglades Foundation, our advertiser, says that would be good for Florida and good for the Everglades. Learn more about President Trump's Everglades support project at evergladesfoundation.org. and important political, legal, and cultural figures today. You can catch The Megyn Kelly Show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream The Megyn Kelly Show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are.

No car required. I do it all the time. I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free. Go to SiriusXM.com slash MKShow

to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com slash MK show and get three months free. Offer details apply. Rob O'Neill was our first Memorial Day in-depth interview back in when we launched the show. We didn't even have a video yet. It would have been Memorial Day of 2021

right after the show launched. And that story was just unbelievable just to hear it told firsthand. He's controversial now. Some people don't think he should have said it was him, blah, blah, blah. What do you think? Seals. You know what I mean? It's always fucking drama with those guys.

You know what I'm saying? I adore him. I really admire him so deeply. Yeah. I'm not buying into any of that drama. All right, so now it wasn't done. You're not done. The war's still going on.

And then you wind up going to Iraq. Yeah. And I think that was like the, you know, they were gearing up. You know what I mean? We're trying to do this. They were gearing up for Iraq. I mean, that's a nightmare. Like when you look back on that one,

what do you think? Iraq? Yeah. I loved Iraq. What? No one says that. Why? I don't know. They're out of their mind. You have an interesting take on it, and I love to hear your take on Saddam Hussein, because you're making some good points I hadn't considered. Saddam, man, like, we should have left him.

We should have killed his bastard sons and told him, play along or you're next. Uday and Qusay. Yeah, them dudes needed to go. But he was kind of a fan of the Christians. He was. He was. His inner circle was all Christians.

The people that touched his food, washed his butt, like all Christian, all inner circle. And it's because of the martyr thing. You know, if you're a Muslim, you kill yourself, you're a martyr, you go to heaven. You know what I mean? As a Christian, you kill yourself, you go to hell. So he surrounded himself and put up with the Christians. That's why Iraq was actually pretty Western even back then, because he allowed Christians to have their own areas, do their own things. Right. And then, you know, ISIS allows none of that. You know what I mean?

Yep. And then we had to mess with it. So did you, you did go on a mission where you, you got, you tried to get him. I tell me again what it was. It was like a woman, his affair partner's husband. Yeah. Uh, is, uh, yeah. Uh, we rolled up everybody that met saddam you know what i mean and then we used to say look we're in the army like you know in the you know our intelligence agencies they give polygraphs and they determine their rating as sources and like they'd be like this is an unreliable source you know what i'm saying and we'd be like i'm in the army i'm pulling every thread let's go i don't care and we go check it out anyway most of the time they were wrong uh yeah uh go what a shock yeah go figure uh but yeah uh saddam had like a favorite sex lady i never even heard of this i heard you saying sean reggie because she was not hot

yeah like like i don't know what they got going. Who knows what she was doing behind closed doors? Yeah. There's no talent. She must have been a real pro. You know what I mean? That's all I could think. She probably had some moves.

She had to know something about something. But you would think, I don't know, you would just assume she would be attractive. I don't know. I didn't know what to assume. You kind of would. Everyone pictures the affair partner as somebody who's very hot. The wife could maybe, or maybe not. None of that happening here.

I mean, maybe had some hot ones. I didn't see them. Yeah. Different taste. Maybe she had a routine. We have no idea. She obviously had something. Okay.

So, but it wasn't her you were looking for. It was her husband. She was married. We were, we couldn't get to her because it's hard to get to women in Iraq. So we had to get to the husband. See what I'm saying? And what, what information could we get from the husband? I don't know.

Maybe Saddam kind of, you know, was honey potted a little bit. He told his favorite honey pot. I don't know, something, you know? And as a, as an army guy, not an Intel guy, I'm like, let's go. Let's look into this. I'll do it. Yeah. I don't care. And do we get him? Yeah, we got him. Yeah. Did he know anything? Yeah. They didn't know shit. You know what I mean? Like they didn't know shit. Uh, but we did get them and, uh, yeah, it was okay. This is, this is kind of legendary, but, um, I was across the street in a minivan and I was kind of watching this shop.

I had two Iraqi guys that I would use. And then I had the assault force kind of park on the corner close to the shop. And then enough time went by by we were just waiting and waiting i told my guys to start fighting in front of the store if too much time went by so they start a fist fight in front of the store uh and then people come out like what's going on out front of the store and the dude came out and literally put his back to like the van door the assault force and i'm like, yo, open the door. It's that dude right there. And they grabbed him. And then it was over and people were

like looking for him. No one even knew he was gone. Everyone had been watching the fight. Wow. And then later my boss was like, man, we're so lucky that dude started the fight. I was like, I was like, that was our guys. I was trying to speed this up a little bit. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's hot in the back of the van. So you don't have to do the interrogation or you do? Um, I've done a lot of them. Okay. They don't always send in like the dark arts guys from the CIA to do that crap. Like that's, that's us too. Uh, those guys are chump change. You know what I mean? They're to get my only. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So how do you make a guy like that talk? And by the way, easy.

How do you communicate with one another? You have a translator there. Yeah. You gotta have a terp people to speak the language. But, uh, yeah. What do you mean easy? How is it easy? Uh, everybody talks. They do. Oh, are you kidding me? Torture them. What do you do? You don't kind of do shit. It's easy. What? Yeah. Fear and common sense is a powerful tool you know what i mean most of the time like what okay think about this okay this is every human being this me this is you look there's stuff that you're gonna die with that you ain't telling no one about everybody does that right does that make sense to you i don't know i'm kind of an open book but okay

yes i am too but there's secrets people keep to their grave right that's basically what i'm saying right uh and then there's other shit like what's your cousin's car look like that you just ain't holding it ain't worth like getting beat over it ain't worth fighting over like uh it's a little white car like this is a small point of order but did he know that the wife was having an affair with saddam hussein the entire time he did what do you do was he was he okay with it i'm just kind of curious what the sex dynamic i would imagine he felt lucky to be alive every day right you know what i'm saying yeah he'd be a very easy guy to get rid of. And then you could have the side piece whenever you wanted it, but I guess he could

anyway. So what's the point of killing the husband? I don't know. So he gave up whatever info. And did we find Saddam Hussein after that? Uh, shortly after that. Yeah, we were, uh, look, we had to run all the man hunting is is like a sweater when like you have a yarn on a sweater you pull it right one of those threads is gonna the arm's gonna come off one of those threads you pull it out forever it doesn't do nothing you know what i mean so we're gonna pull every thread this is the process yeah so when you was that the biggest thing that you did one while you were in iraq would you say? Like the most serious thing? No.

No. What else did you do? Zarqawi was serious days. Oh, my God. That was dark. That was the dark stuff. You were over there with all the beheadings and all that? Mm-hmm.

Oh, my God. I mean, does that scare you? You're only a man. You're a man. I mean, I don't know. I wasn't really scared, but I did get a sword get a sword off as our Cowey truck. That was like a Roman short sword. And I'm like, there's pictures of me. I got my shirt off. I'm like, uh, I don't know if you ever seen those, but, uh, I wanted to, I would have cut one of their

heads off. You know what I mean? Like, but, um, no, it didn't scare me. You know, uh, Zarqawi was a bully and he liked to pick on the weak. He didn't want to pick on us. You know what I mean? And then, you know, yeah, the Zarqawi days were great. Foreign fighters was great. I mean, I don't know. I loved it all. But like the foreign fighters, like you just show up in front of the house,

have my guy get on the bullhorn, they'd start shooting, we'd level the house, you know, like those days were great. I mean, uh, I think those days were great because that's when the military finally let us take the gloves off and be like, okay, you guys do this your way. You know what I mean? What year is this now? Oh, six, seven? Uh, yeah. It was our cow. It was six. You know what I mean? But they'd finally start to let the gloves come off. You know, I think, like, I think we were, we were throttled a lot through a lot of stuff. But I feel like through the Zarkawi days, no one gave a shit how we were getting it done.

You know what I mean? So how long were you over there? Or how many deployments do you have? I think I got 10. And then, like, I got a bunch of, like, the surge and the stay-lates and shit like that. You went back and back? Yeah. 10 deployments do you have uh i think i got 10 and then like i got a bunch of like the surge and the stay late and shit like went back and back yeah 10 deployments yeah and then uh as a SAR major i i spent a lot of time there but it didn't really count as a deployment i was back and forth oh wow so then what like how does it end for you i know. Did they just send you back home before the fight was done? Or did you fight all the way

to the end of the... No, I was a SAR major. I retired in 11. Because you're getting older. Yeah. They don't let you serve forever, really, right? Oh, man.

You're only young so long, you know? But I'll tell you what, with stem cells and shit, I could have stayed another 10 years if modern science was hitting. It's so interesting to talk to you and hear you talk about how fun it was because it seems like the hell of war and the trauma that guys have the PTSD, but there's something about like, what is it? Is it working with your comrades in arms? Is it like

doing the thing that you've been told to do and you're really good at it? You love that. Is it like what is that what is fun i mean uh why be ashamed of trying your best no matter what that is i think right uh and i think that's really what it boils down to i mean yeah i could be ashamed did a lot of people die yeah a lot of people died did you be ashamed some of the wrong people die, sure. You know what I mean? Did innocent people die? Sure. But like this is war and essentially war is you kill the bad guy and break his shit so he can't use that shit against you. If I was told to go do that, why am I the bad guy in this?

I'm not. You know what I mean? I'm just doing my best on a daily basis, you know? And then at the end of the day, I always seen it as I'm in the army. I take orders. Let's go. And a lot of times I like those orders. You know what I mean?

What was the, what was the brotherhood dynamic? Oh, uh, man, you would think it's kind of interesting. You would think the brotherhood would have been strong. Um, but like the war, like builds bonds builds bonds you can't you can't get anywhere else i guess you know what i mean like uh you'd think like there's always a brotherhood right well we talk about the brotherhood but we just joked about seal drama you know what i'm saying uh so having said that uh i think there's like guys that I'm like, I was in combat with that.

We have a bond. Um, I think there's certain people I have bonds with over different stuff, but I think that bond, the brotherhood is, is just, you know, the experiencing, uh, the best and worst of humanity at the same time. And when your life is on the line, it just adds, I don't know, so much more to it. I would think like you're risking it all together. And any one of you might not be there the next night. Yeah. I mean, I always say like, I, I always say, well,

I said this to my guys too, but I, we all gave uncle Sam a blank check. Get ready. Don't be mad if it gets cash but don't be mad for somebody when their check is cash because they died doing what they loved can't be mad at that either were there any women in your unit um maybe you're not allowed to tell me i don't know can women be rangers uh i don't know that's a good question i think tell me? I don't know. Can women be rangers? I don't know. That's a good question. I think so these days. I don't know.

Like, I don't know how it works. Did you ever have to deal with that dynamic out in the field? Like men and women serving together? Yeah. It just seems so weird to me. I don't know. I know nothing. I think women have very niche roles and can have very niche roles.

Uh, I've worked with women. I've had women partners. They were great. Um, but I think there's a role for them and they're not like the one you send, uh, you know,

get Zarkawi, right. There's other stuff they do. So, uh, yes, we have, we have women always have women like,

uh, and it, yeah, I mean, it's, I think there's more women on the planet than men. I don't know why this shot. Well, I'm just, I'm curious about, I'm just back to your dating life now. Like, can you meet a woman somehow? Or you're like, how do you fall in love? How do you like, man, I'll tell you this is I started out married at nine 11. I've been divorced several times. It's a hard life. I think it's a hard life because no one understands your level of commitment. And I say that in a way like you're choosing something that might cause your death over and over. People don't see that as rational, but they don't understand. You know what I mean? But, uh, so I would say, I always say this is like being married

was like being in prison. You could call home and you ain't going there anytime soon. You know what I mean? That's just how it works. What do you mean? I don't think I get it. That's how marriage works in the army. Like when you deployed a war, you could call home and get your one phone call. Yeah. Call home like once a week or something. Yeah. But you ain't going home. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's tough on anybody. I would, I would say this only guys that had perfect relationships, their marriages survived the war. You know what I mean? And I'd say the bulk of guys end up divorced. Do you have kids? I do. How old are they? I stopped keeping track when they turned over 21. How many kids do you have? I have two.

Are they good? Yeah, they're good. They're good. They're good people. Are they going into the military at all? My son was in the army and works for the army now. Okay. So when it all winds, when it ends, you know, Iraq eventually ends and Afghanistan ended disastrously and recently. Yeah. Is that a moment for reflection on what it meant? What role you played? Whether it was worth it or no?

Is it just, I'm a soldier. I did my job. Next chapter. Well, it wasn't worth it. I mean, everyone can see that, right? It's not just me. I don't think it was worth it at all. I had a great time. I would say none of it was really worth it in a strategic sense, in a tactical sense. You know what I mean? Like, honestly, but the reality is, is like, man, I had the time of my life and I, I that kid needs to be thanked like i was just i was just doing what i do well how do you reconcile it with stories like you know marcus latrell and what happened to him and he's definitely got some lasting ptsd from that

rough ride back home uh yeah i don't even get that eyes out alone all the time like eyes out alone in afghanistan i don't get how being the lone survivor i just don't understand that story only because i was out alone all the time it didn't happen to me you know what i mean because the decisions i make on the ground well you're not blaming him i'm not blaming him i'm just saying it's so that's so foreign to me i don't even understand it because i can tell you this the taliban could come after me there'd be a whole lot of dead bodies for sure and i'm just one i believe that imagine if there was two or three of me bring them i mean that's one of the worst stories of the war and what what he went through is it's awful and, it's not just

him. You know, I was at last year and I was two years ago. We talked to Dakota Meyer. He's doing great now. Um, but you know, he came back, he won the, was awarded the medal of honor and wanted to kill himself. Like he, there are tough, tough guys. Not, these are not weak men who they don't process it the way you do. I think if you could somehow teach this, it would be extremely valuable. I could teach anybody this. I feel like anybody could use this. People who have different traumas. It would start by me locking you in a room and beating you first.

Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly. I might sign up for that. I think people would. Don't touch the moneymaker. No, of course. Of course.

No bruises, no marks. I'm a pro. I've done a bunch of interrogations. I got this. I mean, like, is there some sort of toughen you up, John Camp? No. There isn't. I mean, the shirt.

No. What does it read? Team SOB. Yeah. I called you tough SOB, same thing. So this is not something I can sign up for so, or I can go learn. I don't have any classes like this. You're missing an opportunity.

Leadership, right? Leadership. Can it be taught? I think so. I think so. Like, um, most of my guys, if my guys killed somebody, I brought them all in a room. I made everyone have a drink. I made sure I told them they did exactly right. You know, this was expected of them, right? Like this is your job. Like someone should thank you. And I think if all that happens on the spot, you're less likely to carry the guilt with you later. So I believe a lot of this is framed up poorly a long time ago. Yeah.

And then I believe guys ride the hall pass for a long time and I call the hall pass booze, but some people do drugs. Some people do, I don't know what people do, but for me, my hall pass was booze. You know what I mean? And then- Still drink or no, no more? Well, I'm training for worlds right now. So I am currently not drinking. my hall pass was booze. You know what I mean? And then still drink or no, no more. Uh, well, I'm training for worlds right now. So I am currently not drinking worlds in what jujitsu. Oh, wow. All you ex military guys do jujitsu. Why is that? I don't know. Jujitsu. It's an hour of my day where I don't have to look at the phone. It's a, sometimes there's minutes where someone's actually like choking the living shit out of me. It's an hour of my day where I don't have to look at the phone. It's a,

sometimes there's minutes where someone's actually like choking the living shit out of me. And the stubborn side of me is like, I'm not giving it to him. You know what I mean? Isn't it involuntary? No. What? No.

When they choke you out? No. Yeah. No. It's not involuntary. Okay. I got to learn those moves. If you are,

if you make me give it to you i'll give it to you otherwise you could choke the shit out of me and i'll just ride it you know but uh when i'm in real survival mode someone puts me in trouble i gotta think about what's next my leverage my everything control my breathing my heart rate i call that real survival mode. Like that's, I'm, I'm so thankful for that. It's a, it's a clarity of some time. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know how like people talk about runners high, like, you know, I do cardio. It doesn't make me high ever. I've always hated it, but like jujitsu is, uh, I don't know. Sometimes when I'm in real survival, I don't got to think about my phone. I don't got to think about my life. Are you always going against somebody who knows what they're doing?

Is it usually an instructor or another like participant in the class? Because I travel. I hit, I think 28, 30 different dojos a year. I just walk in and- Do you worry about like outmatching somebody to the point where you're going to hurt them and get sued or- No, where you're going to hurt them and get sued or cause permanent damage? No. I'm a recovering lawyer. This is how I think about these things. Oh, no, no, no.

It's jujitsu. Like, look, this is unarmed. There's no hurting somebody? There's hurting somebody. I'm not going to. Well, yeah, but as you get better at it, right? Like this is the point of submission. If you thought I was going to hurt

you you could tap okay so that's your escape button that's like the the safe gesture don't don't hurt me anymore please i've had enough yeah you just tap so what are you doing now i'm training for worlds cut and wait right now oh i teach I teach people to shoot. Oh, okay. Oh yeah, because you were a sniper. I was, yeah. We didn't even go over that. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. How many guns do you own? Seriously? I couldn't count. More or less than J.D. Vance's

mamaw had in her house when she I don't even know how many that is. I think it was 19. Oh, yeah. I don't want to admit to anything. You know what I mean? Where are you living? I live in Rale how many that is. I think it was 19. Oh yeah. I don't want to admit to anything. You know what I mean? Where are you living? I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. No, where specifically?

Give us the street address. No, I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding. So you settled in the warmth? Well, I live near Fort Bragg still. Okay. You know what I mean? And you work with them and do you do anything?

I don't do anything at Fort Bragg. I try not to. What do you do for fun? Like how do you let your hair down uh i do jujitsu uh i off-road with my buddies i got one of them side by side off-road vehicles yeah i do that there's a guy who goes in the side one put on a little white scarf and a little leather helmet he'll get it muddy you know what i mean i wouldn't bring light on these trips. But yeah, we normally off-road in the Arizona mountains yearly.

Yeah, we go to this place, Crown King, oldest bar. There's no dirt. It's all dirt roads, no pavement. Stay up there in cabins. And it's kind of like, I don't know. We off-road, we drive. I eat cheeseburgers and I drink whiskey. And then sounds right on brand. I do that all weekend. I don't shower either. I don't even care. Let's go. We're

four wheeling. Okay. So you took shower just not on this particular trip. Yeah. But, um, I four wheel, uh, man, I, you know, and then I just, I love teaching people to shoot. It's kind of like the thing I'm really good at. Wow. Yeah. Um, what do you think? I know you're not, you don't really watch the news. Do you follow politics at all? Like, what do you think of Trump? What do you think of Pete Hexeth as the top guy at Pentagon? Yeah. Well, first off talk to Pete. I need one of these Pentagon jobs. Tell me I shouldn't be i will the deputy of special operations is that what you would like hell yeah let's go i'll make a call oh man uh but uh look i like trump uh i like vance i like pete uh i like what they're doing um and like what can i say? Like, I think they make good inherent decisions like for longterm,

which we're not really used to here. You know what I mean? But, uh, I think they're all good. I don't watch the news or nothing, but I think they're good so far. I think, I thought Trump made great policies last time. You know what I mean? What have you seen enough of Pete to know what you like about him? Oh man, I got a ton of buddies that know Pete. Like everybody loves Pete. You know what I mean?

Like that's all I needed to hear. And you know, like the, look, the Pentagon, we ain't won a war lately. And you know, these generals will be like, oh, well he was just lower enlisted saying that. But like, yo, I watched you guys every day make fucked up decisions. I try to tell you and you'd be mad at me.

You know what I mean? Like, not that I was always right, but like sometimes you're wrong also. And it's the, I think it's the hubris of the Pentagon that needs to be taken down a few notches. You know what I mean? Yeah. And like, uh, anyway. Yeah.

Uh, so I would happily serve this country and make everything better. You know what I mean? Yeah. And like, uh, anyway. Yeah. Uh, so I would happily serve this country and make everything better. You know what I mean? That's awesome. Oh, we need, we need guys like you raising your hands. Thanks. Well, I love that you came in to tell us your story. It's such an interesting man. I love, I love everything about you.

What a character you are. Thank you. I hope we can find a way to get you back. So let's go, let's go. Let's call Pete. Pete, where are you at? Let's call DJT and see if he's got something. Call him right now. Get him on the line. I'm in. Whether you want to hear it or not, thank you for your service. Oh, you're welcome. It's a pleasure to meet you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. All the best to you. Oh, didn't I tell you? He's unbelievable. What a guy, John McPhee. Thank you once again. Um,

you know, it's just incredible that the stuff that our troops go through and the different mindsets that they develop along the way, right? It's our honor to talk to him. It's our honor to talk to all of our troops who have served in battle. And if you, if you're into what you heard today, you should go back and listen to the earlier Memorial day shows that we've done since we launched. Uh, the first one was in 2021 and that was Rob O'Neill. We've done Marcus Luttrell. We've done Dakota Meyer, recipient of the Medal of Honor. It's just, these guys are, they're living life around us. They're kind of back to normal to the extent one can be with having these incredible backgrounds. So it's well worth our time to take a moment to learn from them and remember what they and our other troops have done for us while we've been sitting at home in our

air conditioning, right? So that's what today is all about, especially honoring the fallen. We do that here. Thank them and their families for their service. In the meantime, I hope you have a great day with your families. I hope you have some time off. You can think about what matters. And I hope you'll tune in tomorrow when we have a live show and a special Kelly's Court. Everybody loves Kelly's Court and we are bringing it to you tomorrow. So don't miss that. We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. Seed oils make up 20% of the average American's daily calories, and some studies have linked seed oils to metabolic health issues and inflammation in the body. We had a couple of experts on this show a couple of years ago telling us about how seed oils can help create bad fat on your body that is a lot harder to lose. FYI, check it out. Anyway, this company,

Masa, decided to do something about it. They created a tasty and delicious tortilla chip with just three ingredients and no seed oils, organic corn, sea salt, and 100% grass-fed beef tallow. We need this product. These chips don't just avoid all the bad stuff. They taste incredible too. This is not that hard to do. More companies need to do this. We don't need all that crap in our food. Masa is crunchier, it's tastier, and it's sturdier than other chips. And an added bonus, the beef tallow makes the chips much more satiating. So you won't find yourself uncontrollably binging and still feeling hungry immediately thereafter.

Masa chips, it's beloved by thousands of customers, and it's been endorsed by industry-leading health and nutrition experts. You ready to give Masa a try? Go to masachips, M-A-S-A, chips.com slash M-K, and use code M-K for 25% off your first order. That's masachips.com slash M-K. Use code M-K to get 25% off your first order.