The Megyn Kelly Show - Disturbing NEW Video and Photos Show Armed Mystery Man at Nancy Guthrie's House, with Phil Holloway, James Fitzgerald, and Maureen O'Connell | Ep. 1249

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

Megyn Kelly begins the show laying out all the evidence for why she believes Nancy Guthrie wasn't actually kidnapped and was instead killed, Savannah Guthrie's first statement addressing the public and not the potential abductor, and more. Then MK True Crime host Phil Holloway joins to discuss his exclusive reporting from outside Nancy Guthrie's home, what he's seen that makes the police work harder, major questions about how Tucson police have handled the Nancy Gutherie investigation, and more. Then Maureen O'Connell, co-host, "Best Case Worst Case," and Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of "Cold Red Podcast," join to discuss the breaking news of the FBI releasing new photos of a masked and armed man at Nancy Guthrie’s home, the shocking break in the case and what could happen next, disturbing new video recovered from Nancy Gutherie’s Nest camera showing a masked man at her door, what sort of gun the intruder had, major questions about the Guthrie case now that we've seen the photos and videos from her Nest camera, the look and behavior of the mystery man, whether the mysterious potential suspect caught on camera could be a professional hitman, whether he could be associated with the cartel, signs he knew the house well, and more. Plus former SWAT team leader Chad Ayers joins. Subscribe to MK True Crime:Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mk-true-crime/id1829831499Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4o80I2RSC2NvY51TIaKkJWYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MKTrueCrime?sub_confirmation=1Social: http://mktruecrime.com/ Holloway- https://x.com/PhilHollowayEsqO'Connell- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/best-case-worst-case/id1240002929Fitzgerald-https://www.youtube.com/@ColdRedPodcast-tb2lb/featuredAyers- https://www.proactiverg.com/why-proactive/about-our-leadership/ Ethos Life Insurance: Protect your family’s future with fast, online life insurance from Ethos—get a free quote in minutes at https://Ethos.com/MKRelief Factor: Find out if Relief Factor can help you live pain-free—try the 3-Week QuickStart for just $19.95 at https://ReliefFactor.com or call 800-4-RELIEF.Done with Debt: https://www.DoneWithDebt.com & tell them Megyn Kelly sent you!All Family Pharmacy: Order now at https://allfamilypharmacy.com/MEGYN and save 10% with code MEGYN10  Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East. Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. It's now day 10 of the search for Nancy Guthrie, the missing 84-year-old mother of NBC news host Savannah Guthrie. Authorities believe she was forcibly removed from her Arizona home, but beyond that, they don't seem to know much else. Yesterday, the Pima County Sheriff's Department posted on X, quote, investigators have not identified any suspects, persons of interest, or vehicles connected to Nancy Guthrie. Great job. And the FBI in a statement given to this show and other media outlets yesterday saying, quote, writing, the FBI is not aware of any continued communication between the Guthrie family and suspected kidnappers. Nor have we identified a suspect or person of interest in this case at this time. But the FBI we've now learned has been brought in, as I've been reporting,

kind of late, and then stiff-armed by the sheriff. As I've been reporting all week, that even though they've been saying it's a joint investigation, that my understanding was the sheriff's office was taking the lead, and the FBI was in a more back row role, well, that's now hit the public. And there are reports that, in fact, they were stiff-armed by the sheriff. Both agencies urging members of the public to come forward if they have any information. and now we have heard again directly from Savannah Guthrie on Instagram last night for the first time. She does not appear to be reading from a script, but her tone was not optimistic.

Watch. Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt. Because we believe that somehow, some way, she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place. We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home trying to find her

she was taken and we don't know where and we need your help so i'm coming on just to ask you not just for your prayers but no matter where you are even if you're far from tucson if you see anything you hear anything if there's anything at all that seems strange to you that you report court to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation. And we need your help. An hour of desperation. Savannah there having a little makeup on, having done her hair a little bit. And of course, you know, you have the online nuts who are like, I would never, if my mother were missing, I would never put on a stitch of makeup. Okay. Savannah has obviously had the hardest week plus of her those videos showing her incredibly raw without hair and makeup done are what's real.

And as somebody who does the hair and makeup virtually every day, I completely related to that feeling of when things are really hard, really hard, you don't do it. And it's part of your depression, your sadness, and your inability barely to get out of bed. So the fact that Savannah's functioning was able to drag herself in front of the camera the past couple of times to issue those other videos is pretty Herculean and impressive. And I saw her putting on a little makeup for the latest video as a very good sign of her mental health. Because I think it's armor in a way. And if you can if you can just like make an effort at whatever, looking a little nicer, like a little bit more pop in your lip and the color, it's almost like a sign of like,

I will find myself again. That face that I present to the world every day, I'm still there. I'm in there. I'm suffering, but I'm still in there. That girl who goes out and does the continue. today's show, we'll be back. And it's a bit of armor where it's like, she's, she sounded stronger to me in that video. And her messaging was no longer to the kidnappers. It was to us. You know, let's face it, there's probably not a kidnapper. This is probably a murder.

I mean, I'm sorry. That's what I think, as I thought for many days now, those guys, my belief is whoever wrote those ransom notes was an opportunist trying to take advantage of a suffering family. And I'll go through with you what I, I mean, I kind of outlined it in my head. There was 41 minutes in that house. It was definitely, we know it was a kidnapper of sorts. It was an abductor, not maybe not a kidnapper, but an abductor. Because we know she didn't wander off on her own at random. Because who took the nest cameras?

She might have had a senior moment where she fell and hit her head, whatever, and then wandered. Who took the nest cameras? Did she? She fell and hit her head, and then she destroyed and took her two nest cameras in the front and the back of her home? No. That didn't happen. Someone did take her. And so why would you take her?

You either took her because you wanted to kidnap her for money, or you took her because you wanted to hurt her. I mean, really, is there another realistic option? And I don't believe those people who are. harassing the family last week have her. I don't believe a reference to a white Apple watch and possibly its placement on a nightstand, et cetera, and a floodlight that could be seen by anybody from the exterior of the home is proof they have anything. As I've been saying, if you wanted to prove, hell, my audience and I could do this with each other. If somebody had me and I gave a couple of comments that only my audience would know the references to.

I could satisfy you that somebody had me, right? Like, easily. And it's for a mother and her children, one or two references from their childhood or some funny moment they had. Some family joke, you know how it is at Thanksgiving. We've got them in my family. You've got them in yours. Some reference, some thing that you make fun of on the one child, not the other.

some joke that the family always brings up to. It's very easy to prove you have somebody without referencing a floodlight. That's fucking bullshit. So this family's been getting harassed by an opportunist, which seemed clear to us, given the number of fraud stories we've done on this show. It's just these people are heartless, they're sophisticated, and they couldn't care less about hurting an elderly person, a middle-aged person, a child, they don't care.

All they want is to get paid. And they saw an opportunity, I believe, to steal $6 million from Savannah Guthrie in her lowest moment. That's my own belief. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm wrong, it means there's an actual kidnapper out there with Nancy Guthrie. But obviously, Savannah and her brother and sister did not believe that because they didn't

pay the ransom. We're now well over 12 hours. passed the moment when it was due. And that $6 million ransom deadline has come and gone with no money deposited in the Bitcoin account, according to TMZ, which knows what the Bitcoin account, what its numbers are. They've been checking it to see if anybody's put any money in it all along. And their latest update was nothing was deposited. So they didn't pay the ransom, even though the family said, we'll pay. We're willing to pay on Saturday night. What they were really saying was give us proof of life. You know, prove to us you have her and we will pay or just proof that you have her,

not even of life. And obviously they didn't get it. So they didn't pay the ransom and I think that was the right move. As I said yesterday, I don't think I'd pay it. I think someone has taken Nancy Guthrie's life. And the real question in my mind now is who and why. Why did they remove her from the home before they did it. Because that we know too. We know they were in there for about 41 minutes, because we know the nest cameras were taken out at 147 and Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker disconnected from her iPhone at 228. So we know it took about 41 minutes for the perpetrator to do whatever he did inside that home. What did he do? It doesn't appear that he killed Nancy Guthrie in her home because that pacemaker was still connected to the iPhone at 228 a.m.

when it appears he took her from the home. It does appear he took her because, A, she's no longer there. B, the pacemaker disconnected from the iPhone at that hour. And C, there was blood at least on the front stoop. And we believe inside the house. The sheriff continues to say there was DNA inside that they're having analyzed. That all would suggest someone took her and that she was alive. I just can't get past. Why would the pacemaker not have disconnected until 228 if she'd been killed prior to that?

If she'd been killed, let's go down the theory of it was family over at Annie and Tomas's house earlier in the evening. And he never actually did return her at 9.48 p.m. like the sheriff said. Okay, that would be on the pacemaker. We would see that. Clearly, the pacemaker was connected to the iPhone prior to 228 a.m. and was downloading data. And all the research we've done shows that a pacemaker updates periodically, like over the course of a few hours. It's not second by second to the iPhone. So it would be like maybe three hours,

you get another upload from your pacemaker onto your iPhone of what your heart's done over the past few hours. And typically it would be very boring and you'd be happy to see a boring heart report. But if something massive happened, like you were in a scuffle or somebody was trying to kidnap, you, one would think that would be reflected in your heart rate. And certainly if you died, your pacemaker would reflect that you had died, that there was no heart activity. That would be

on the record as of 228. And that's not what the sheriff's telling us. I mean, it makes no sense that the sheriff if he saw that Nancy Guthrie had died prior to 228 would be engaging in this wild goose chase would be saying, I think she's alive, would be engaging as the feds are with the Guthrie family on responding to alleged impossible kidnappers. None of their behavior suggests they believe she's definitely passed, which they would know if her pacemaker reflected a death prior to 2.28 a.m. when it stopped communicating with its phone. So those are the things that we appear to know. 41 minutes. She's not just walk out. off on her own. Someone did take her alive, at least as of 228, and that the sheriff believes that

based on the pacemaker data. That leaves us with who and why. Now we're just getting new information in as I'm talking to you. This is from Tom Winter of NBC News. Law enforcement is expected to release a surveillance photo showing a potential subject in the ongoing Nancy Guthrie investigation as soon as this afternoon, according to two senior law enforcement officials. Surveillance photo showing a potential subject. Great. Great. Good. We'll look forward to seeing that. That's the only thing that makes sense that someone, I mean, I believe that someone took her and probably then took her life. Because think about it. If you're, if you're, if you're, if you are a kidnapper. Why are you kidnapping? You're kidnapping because you want money. You want ransom.

Okay, well, you just blew that. You didn't, if that was them behind these latest demands, they blew it. They did not provide proof of life and they didn't get their money. Now that's over. If you took her and you didn't submit a ransom demand right away and then two opportunists or one opportunist decided to bomb in and make a Bitcoin demand that you're not behind, you probably would have rushed to make your demand, concerned that the Guthrie family was going to pay somebody other than you. And you probably would have submitted a lock of hair or something to prove you were the actual kidnapper who had her. Nothing. Crickets.

So it doesn't appear that somebody is hiding Nancy Guthrie for ransom at this point. If she was killed, the question is who and why? Was it someone who was stalking Savannah Guthrie? We don't have reports of actual stalkers, active stalkers. As I told you, I did receive information from a tipster on somebody who had been stalking Savannah along with others. And this person, I think, was led out of prison years ago, a few years ago. But there's nothing about an active stalking situation.

or certainly not somebody who they know, and I'm sure at this point the FBI knows if there was an active stalking situation and found out where those people were on the day that she disappeared. Okay, so there's that. It's still possible. We don't know anything. They're not telling us active stalkers, etc. Or who might be on that list. It could be a crazed fan. Well, stalker kind of suggests crazed fan. Or it could be somebody angry, angry with Savannah. Now, as our guest, pointed out yesterday, sadly, that's kind of more likely if something were to happen to me or happen to Tucker because we're more controversial than Savannah Guthrie is. But it doesn't mean it can't happen in her case, too. Even like the cheery morning host can get some lunatic who decides she's awful because she did one report that touched on his favorite issue and he wants to make an example of her and he's got a touch of the crazies and he does something about it. Okay, so it could be some

sort of crazed NBC watcher, someone who either loves her, you know, sickly, or hates her. It could be somebody who hates Nancy Guthrie. They're right now today taking the DNA of all the workers who worked on her home, trying to figure out whether they were in the home when they shouldn't have been, et cetera. They're just trying to rule people out right now. It could have been one of those people. Or it could have been somebody closer to home. It could have been a friend or a family member. And that's why they're looking down the road at Annie and Tamas. I don't think they're looking at Savannah, who by all accounts, was in New York when she got the call from her mother's friends or from her sister, that they couldn't find their mother. And no one's even mentioned anything

about the brother Cameron, who's 61 and a retired fighter pilot, who I believe lived out of town, too. He didn't show up until a couple days into this saga. So they're all fair game because their family, and that's where you start. When it comes to the family, you've got to ask, what would the motive have been? You know, you do have to look at Annie and Tamas and ask who's the beneficiary of any life insurance policy she had. Who's the main beneficiary of any will that Nancy Guthrie had? How much of a burden was Nancy Guthrie to those who were taking care of her? I mean, those are the questions that law enforcement will be asking, and those are the right. questions. What was the dynamic between Nancy Guthrie and her family? Was it all rainbows and unicorns?

Because let me tell you something. What happens on the Today Show is they only paint a picture of the most happy, lovely things and everyone's a family member to each other on that set. And obviously your home life is absolutely perfect. And if they ever go home and do a shoot with your parents, that's only going to be painted in the most perfect light. And look, I'm just going to tell you, these are lies. There are lies. Even now, as I watch them say, oh, no, that's the Today Show. It's really, it really is a family.

It isn't. I'm not so enraptured in this story that I haven't forgotten that it's a snake pit over there. It's a fucking snake pit, okay? They're literally right now in the Daily Mail. There's an article about how all these backbiter's at NBC are feeling kind of bad now because Savannah was out for four to six weeks with a vocal cord surgery. She wasn't allowed to speak preceding this event. And they were gleefully leaking to the Daily Mail that the ratings went up when she was gone.

Oh, she's toast. The viewers don't want her anymore. You know, she's this. She's that. She's the other thing. Well, now they're like, oh, gee, we feel kind of bad. I feel kind of bad. We crapped all over her while she was out for her surgery.

We were leaking to the Daily Mail that she was likely to get fired because whoever took over for her got a higher rating. That's who the Today Show is. I'm sorry, but let's not fool ourselves. And the cheery, perfect home pictures, they don't know, you don't know what the dynamic is. You have no idea. Do you really know what the dynamic is between Savannah and her sister? Who does the lion's share of the taking care of Nancy?

I guarantee you it's not Savannah. Maybe Savannah financially, but she doesn't even live there. Savannah lives in Lower Manhattan and is living a cosmopolitan New York life. it's the sister who lives 10 minutes away from the mother. And anybody with an 84-year-old mother knows that that can be potentially a heavy lift for the person who's actually there. All right. So these are all the things that they're going to be looking at and are looking at. But right now, other than this news we just get from Tom Winter at NBC, expected to release the surveillance photos showing a potential subject. That's all just subject in the investigation.

we don't know of any actual real clues. They're analyzing DNA. That's a real clue. We'll wait to see. They're looking at Annie Guthrie's car. They're looking at Nancy Guthrie's car. We just, we have precious little to go on from the sound of it. Now, they're still looking into those notes because it's not completely impossible

that the person who wrote them is a kidnapper, who does have Nancy or did have Nancy. And finally, now that the deadline has come and gone, the reporters who receive them are starting to release a little more information. I mean, like, it's over. So, like, I think you can release the details at this point. TMZ's Harvey Levin was on CNN last night, revealing more about what was in the abductors note that he read, which was the first one, which had the most information from the sound of it. Watch. Well, I mean, we talked about the second deadline, and there is a direct, stark statement about consequences if they didn't get that money. That's all I will say. But it is chilling when you read that sentence. It is short and to the point.

But if this really was the only communication between the kidnappers and Nancy Guthrie's family, right, was happening through the media, then we are well past that deadline and that Bitcoin. account is empty. I'm just stating the very obvious here. Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it, too. And, you know, I raised this issue of maybe the second letter has a second Bitcoin address, but it doesn't make sense to me because why would Savannah, you know, look, Aaron, we didn't talk specifically, but I'll tell you now. The letter says that she will be returned within 12 hours into in the two back in the Tucson area and then if you look at 12 hours that's a radius of about 700 miles. That's how you calculated them. Yeah, the map. We do have a few updates in the case. Fox News Digital. We mentioned this in passing yesterday. Remember I read you the Daily Mail

piece that kind of referenced in passing that Nancy Guthrie had been watching her Sunday mass with friends. And that's that's that. was the answer to the mystery of Sunday morning. Well, we'll get to the news on that. Okay, but first this. Fox News Digital is reporting that individuals who did work at Nancy's home have submitted DNA samples. I mentioned that in passing. So that's good they're doing that.

And now this is the mystery that we've been raising on this show for days now. You remember, initially the reports were from the sheriff that Nancy was discovered missing, after she failed to show up to church. Here's Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos trying to explain. Sometime earlier that morning, they got a call from somebody at the church who said, hey, your mom's not here. The family went to the house. At 11 o'clock in the morning, the family got noticed from somebody at church that she was not at church.

Someone at church notified them. She was not at church. I could play you four more. Okay, he said it repeatedly. Well, like many of Sheriff Nanos's statements, that did not check out because she had not attended service in person in Arizona since the pandemic as broken by the Daily Mail. And every day since the Daily Mail broke that, we at the MK show have been asking, so how did the family know that she wasn't allegedly at church? Like, what is that report based on if she wasn't actually going to?

church. Then we found out that there was a live stream, but that you couldn't see if you were a congregant who was participating in it. We reported that to you. Then we found out that there was a chat along with the live stream. And we speculated here, could it possibly be that people reported in the chat that Nancy wasn't there, that this 84-year-old was joining the live-stream chat? We had no idea, and no one would answer our questions. But now we know that Nancy did regularly gather with a small group of friends on Sundays to watch a live stream not of her church in Arizona, but of her daughter Savannah's church in New York City. Fox News reporting that last night. After Nancy did not show up to watch this live stream on February 1st, Sunday, last Sunday morning, a friend contacted

Savannah's sister Annie, which then set off the desperate search that still has not ended. The pastor of the Guthrie's New York City Church spoke out today on the Today Show. I sat down with Pastor Michael Rusenda in the very pews she and Savannah often pray in. This is Savannah's church. And it's also, it's also Nancy's church, right? Yeah. Over the years, Nancy would visit, and we got a chance to meet her and know her a little bit. And then during the pandemic, we started out of necessity filming our services, our prayers, our sources, our prayers, our sermons and putting it out there into the world. And during that time, Nancy started to watch. Okay. Just a word. It's very annoying when these Johnny come lately's to the story,

bomb in, try to pass judgment on those of us who have been here reporting it from the beginning aggressively and with misinformation. And that's what leads me to Hall Monitor, Brian Stelter. Hall Monitor is out there tweeting the following. Online sleuths and internet commentators have sowed confusion in recent days about how exactly Nancy Guthrie's absence was first noticed on February 1st. Here's the deal. And then he goes on to explain what went down. Okay, it's not online sleuths and internet commentators who have sowed this confusion. It came directly from the sheriff multiple.

times, Hall monitor. Do your homework. Online sleuths and commentators have been trying to piece together what's real based on the sheriff's 180 reversals of his own comments if you just wait 24 hours. He is the one who said she didn't show up at church and someone at church noticed and called her family. The misinformation around this has just been pretty legion. That sheriff, I mean, she was snatched from her bed. Then he had to take that back. He's had quite a few that he's had to clarify.

Nobody's perfect. But spare me the sanctimonious parachuting in with your corrective record, hall monitor. Okay? Do your own homework before you try, before you try to lecture those of us who have been following this in its every detail. Because actually some of us really do care about getting the facts right and hall monitor. Some of us actually do have to worry about this kind of thing happening to us or our loved ones.

So we're really fucking invested in making sure we get every fact correct. Unlike you, where you sit there with your tweets and think that you can weigh in and correct people like this show or Ashley Banfield or anybody else who is trying in good faith to get the facts of this case right. I've had it. We sent Phil Holloway to Houston because we wanted someone of our own. I'm sorry, to Tucson. We wanted someone of our own there to be researching the facts and making sure that we're getting things right. Phil used to be a cop. Did you know that? And now, of course, he's a lawyer, very smart lawyer, and also a host at MK True Crime. So he is neck deep in true crime cases. He understands reporting, and he's been on the opposite side as a member of law enforcement as well.

And he has been on the ground reporting now for about a day there in Tucson. When you bring a child into the world, your perspective changes overnight. Suddenly you're thinking years ahead about child care, school, the future milestones. Part of loving your family also means thinking about their future, even in the uncomfortable ways. Like life insurance, it's not a fun topic. topic. No one wants to talk about it, but you do need to spend a couple of minutes thinking about it. Okay, so we'll get this over with. You'll make this call and you'll be done. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy. It's 100% online. You get a quote in seconds,

apply in minutes, and get same day coverage up to $3 million bucks. Some policies are as low as $30 a month. Business insider named Ethos the number one no medical exam, instant life insurance provider. And Ethos has a stellar 4.8 out of five stars on Trust Pilot. with over 3,000 reviews. Protect your family with life insurance through ethos. Get your free quote in minutes at ethos.com slash mk. That's ethyos.com slash mk. Ethos.com slash mk. Application times and rates may vary. Phil, welcome. Thank you. Great to see you. So what are your first thoughts having been on the ground for about 24 hours? Well, look, one thing that a good lawyer will do, whether you're a prosecutor, defense attorney, if you're a criminal lawyer and you're involved in a criminal case,

one thing that's important to do is to go to the scene of the crime so that you can go on the ground, right? You want to see what the crime scene looks like. You want to see the terrain. You want to just visualize how things are located with respect to other things that may be of interest. In this case, the mom's house versus Annie's house. So the one thing that I first noticed when I got out there, besides this, the giant scrum of obviously media personnel that have every inch of this very narrow roadway just kind of jam-packed with their vehicles and their equipment.

I noticed that the terrain at the house and around the house would be something that would be very difficult to conduct an investigation in. You've got, as you see there on the screen, you've got a lot of the cacti, you've got shrubs that are, you know, two or three, four foot high, lots of things that would block the view of the house, the front door, you know, from the roadway. And vice versa, if you have the ring camera, it's not, it might see who's standing at the door, but it's not going to see what's out past all that shrubbery. And so I sort of took a walk around and then I looked at the area across the street from the house. And I saw more of this, you know, rocky,

traditional desert type terrain. And it's just, it would be a very difficult, challenging place to do an investigation if your investigation turns on trace evidence. And now we know that some of this does turn on trace evidence. I've also talked to some locals here who parenthetically tell me, you know, they don't have a lot of trust in the sheriff. They tell me that the morale in the department is not so great that he has leadership problems within the department. And you start putting all this together and it tracks with the things that you just went through with respect to the sheriff. You know, I, on the way out here yesterday on the plane, I sent an email to the sheriff's office asking, hey, look, is there anybody there that would be willing to talk

with me for five or ten minutes? Because I was interested in maybe doing an interview. and showing the cops' perspective, right? Let them tell me and tell our audience what it's like from the perspective of law enforcement working a case like this where you're, you know, long on basically a mystery and short on leads and you're up all night, every night working tirelessly trying to solve a case, right? That takes a toll on officers. It takes a toll on their families. It's just very, very grueling and hard work.

So I was looking to see if I could get some. someone to talk about that side of things. I wasn't like looking for additional, you know, information about the case itself. And, you know, I got a very short response back saying, the sheriff is the spokesman for this investigation, and he is not granting any additional one-on-one interviews. So I guess he's just completely checked out, which makes sense. I mean, he's given some press conferences, Megan, that, quite frankly, were left me scratching my head. And he released the scene way, way too early. You know, you have these blood droplets that were in the driveway. And we had people that were able to go and access those within a day or so after this

crime occurred. Lots of things about this, you just leave me scratching my head. Yeah, they compromised it now because if and when they ever make an arrest, that person's going to say anything that is used against him from the crime scene, they're going to say it's compromised. What do you mean? They had members of the media traipsing through the front porch, the inside, or the garage, the outside. How can you trust anything there? There was no chain of custody on the house or the area around it. So this will wind up being a problem for them if they ever find a perpetrator. Phil, the deadline for the ransom has passed officially.

And it does not appear they paid it, according to TMZ, who has the Bitcoin address. And to me, it now seems clear from Savannah's the latest message. that all involved have concluded this was a hoax. If she didn't think it was a hoax, she would have paid the $6 million. So is that your understanding or your impression right now? It's my impression now, and it's been my impression from the beginning.

But since I've been here, it's sort of solidified that in my mind. I think that somebody was obviously trying to extort her or basically con her out of some money, right? But I don't think it's the people who took and probably killed Nancy Guth at Guthrie. And can I talk more about the blood droplets that you were just mentioning? You know, there's video of that.

We've seen it. I think Brian Enton was out there, and he took some video showing those blood droplets. And I've been talking with others here on the ground and getting a better feel for what that looked like. And some of the video that I took that I think maybe you just showed showed that the house, it's like this semicircular. Rock driveway and sort of in the middle between the entrances and exits on that semicircular drive, there's lots of cacti and shrubbery and other things like I mentioned. And so what you can sort of surmise happened is that there was some struggle in that house

that caused her to bleed. Now, it wasn't the kind of bleeding that you would expect if, say, you cut an artery, it was little droplets. More like, think about if you have ever had a bloody nose and you, you know, you have blood that's just gravity is taking it straight down and it's, you know, dropping droplets on the ground. Okay? So it wasn't heavy bleeding. And we also know that there's some DNA inside the house. I mean, it could be touched DNA from the cells left behind by whoever, or it could also be blood in there. It stands to reason that if you had blood droplets on the doorway or the doorstep, then you might have blood droplets just inside the door. And then those droplets come out to the top of the semicircular driveway, and then they end.

And so what that suggests to me is that somebody put her in a vehicle and drove her away from there. And so if that's the case, why didn't we have the search plane up that the sheriff's office had within an hour? Okay. We know the Border Patrol came in and had some dogs out there, but we don't know much about how the dogs were used and in what capacity to try to track some. some scent. And, you know, the whole thing just points to a scenario where maybe it was a burglary going on bad. And this is not necessarily inconsistent with Ashley Banfield's reporting either. Something happened with somebody and it was some type of an altercation. Family members can commit burglaries too. So I'm not saying that Ashley Banfield is mistaken about any of that.

It's consistent. Or it could be just a random stranger going in. But somebody went in there. there, and it was a burglary, she was assaulted, and I think that they took her out of there so that they didn't leave her behind, because there's lots of evidence on a body, whether it's alive or breathing, that can identify the attacker. So there could be, I've seen cases where someone was shot in the head with a small caliber rifle or something, and the bullet never leaves, and it just makes very small blood droplets, okay? And sometimes, the body, I've seen one case where the head was taken to, so that the killer could, you know,

prevent law enforcement from finding that bullet and matching it back to some gun. So there's all sorts of reasons that come to my mind why a killer or an attacker would remove Nancy from that home. And none of them are good. This whole thing feels like it's turned into, I don't want to say, a stale case, and hopefully with this new information this afternoon, maybe we will get some kind of breakthrough. But the general feeling around here up until that announcement that you just made about

maybe a picture of a person of interest or something like that, until that, the feeling here is that this is a stale case and that law enforcement is just at the end of their investigative leads right now. I know what you mean because stale is how it's feeling. The FBI got in there, guns blazing, set up the command post. They went in Friday night. They researched Nancy Guthrie's house. They seized the car.

They went over to Annie Guthrie's house. They looked at that earlier in the week. And then again on Saturday night for three hours. Here we are now Tuesday and nothing. And what, you know, I mean, I'm thrilled that there's a possible, quote, subject here, that they have a photo. of. But that's it. Like, they're not even saying suspect. It's just like, what are going to be the facts around this? Hopefully it's a real lead and not just, you know, a nothing burger because

it doesn't seem like they have much to go on right now. And that's alarming so long after. I know you're pointing out he didn't bring in. The sheriff didn't bring in the special plane that's supposed to fly overhead so they can potentially see a person being removed. He had some sort of a turf war going on with the person flying the plane. And, And the sheriff has seemed pretty disjoint date from the beginning. Say again? You know, yesterday, yeah, the pilot was pulled from the flying duty because of some disagreement with the sheriff, I'm told, and was put on street patrol duty or something along those lines. But nevertheless, we know that the pilot was not flying the plane when that very valuable asset needed to be in the air because the moments, the minutes and certainly the few hours after a disappearance like this, those are.

the most critical times to have all hands on deck. And unfortunately, that big piece of it was out of the equation. But yesterday, there was some information from the sheriff's office that there was to be expected some additional law enforcement activity at both of the Guthrie homes. We're talking about nancy's and annies, which is about four or five miles away. And I drove to both of them yesterday. Last night they said there would be. Yeah, he said they would be. But, you know, I was out there until after dark, and I didn't see anything. I mean, I saw one sheriff's deputy that was parked in front of Nancy's house, and he was just sitting in the patrol car there sort of as site security because that's where all the media is, but that wasn't part of the

investigation. But we saw no law enforcement activity, and then I checked with people, other members of the media who are here on the ground, have been out there overnight working in shifts, and I checked with several of them before we go on air with your show here. And they all tell me, yeah, nothing happened. We stake the place out all night and we saw NADA. So I don't know what this messaging problem is with the sheriff's office. They need some help. They need some formal media training.

They need to do some work on that because their messaging has been, well, it's just been very, very frustrating for the public. It's got to be frustrating for the family of Nancy Guthrie to see the sheriff's office make some kind of statement like this and then there be nothing. It's like, what are you doing? My love one is missing. Whether she's alive or dead, we want closure. We want our mom, right? And so you got these messages coming out of the sheriff's office that are just terrible, in my opinion.

I know. It's very alarming. I wish the FBI had been in charge since day one because it's not, it's not there. first rodeo when it comes to a kidnapping or even a murder with nobody, you know, cover up. And they weren't brought in. And now there are reports that when they were brought in, they were stiff armed that the sheriff wasn't exactly happy to see them. He didn't project that on camera. I'll say that. But there are reports out of Fox News today that that was the case. And at a minimum, what this tells me, Phil, is that, I mean, I don't know this, but I'm going to guess

that if it's Fox News reporting, they're probably getting their information from the FBI. Yeah. And my supposition is that that means, at a minimum, the FBI is unhappy with the cooperation it's getting from the sheriff and that maybe they're not hot on this case and about to solve it because they don't start pointing fingers at each other like that when things are going well. Well, so some of the folks I've talked to here with the Fox Digital team who have, I think, been the one that broke the news today that the...

there was some DNA samples taken for comparison by people who maybe like people who worked on the pool, maybe gardeners, people who were hired to work around the home in some capacity. And so that information, I suspect, if I had to guess, is probably coming from the FBI because, or it could be someone very frustrated within the Pima County Sheriff's Office. But the thing about the DNA comparisons, it's important to remember, if someone works at that house, depending on what exactly their job is, it may not be unusual or unexpected to find their touch DNA inside the home. But now, if it's someone like the pool guy.

Now, if it's a landscaper and the DNA is on the mattress, different story. The context is key. But there's also people, family members, right? You would expect family members to have their DNA present in her house. So just because you find someone's DNA in and of itself is not necessarily a clue that might point to you as a suspect. You've got to use the whole context and figure out, is this where you would expect this person's DNA to be or not? And if the answer is no, then you've got to start working on trying to rule them out if you can as a suspect. Yeah. Phil, thank you.

We'll check back in with you tomorrow. And good luck in the meantime, getting somebody to talk. I want to tell the audience that that sheriff did give an interview on camera, off camera, to an Arizona outlet called Green Valley News. And it was on Monday and has a message to his detractors in here. This is a quote. They can question the quality of the investigation. That's their right.

But I would tell them this. They haven't a clue what this investigation has entailed. They don't know all the efforts we put into it. They also don't know that over the last five years, this team has close to a 100% solve rate when it comes to homicides, and it is currently going through thousands of pieces of evidence and following up on 3,000 tips and counting. Now you want to get picky that the sheriff speaks funny or talks off the cuff, or you can call him a buffoon or Barney Fife or whatever you want to call him, the haters are going to hate. But my local media, you included, know me. You know

what I'm about, and you know I've always been a pretty much open book. You ask me a question. I'm going to answer it. That's just the way it is. Well, we appreciate that the book is open, Sheriff, we would really love for it to be correct and reliable and trustworthy. That's personally where this show has taken issue with you. We continue to hope that it's better than it seems. And we really hope that this is more like an Idaho situation when it comes to solving it, where the front burner looks a mess, but the backburners are firing and well on their way to actually doing the job. The FBI is there to do it. to help. They've got a lot of resources that you don't. We certainly do hope you're taking

advantage of that. And speaking of the FBI, we're back now with a very talented 25-year-old, 25-year veteran of the FBI on what she's gleaning from the latest facts, including, including I want to talk to her about, in particular, why they searched the sister's home, Annie Guthrie's home on Saturday night. Not just at night. We know what happened from 7.30 to 10.30, right? But with the lights off. I went back and looked at that tape.

It's not just that they searched it at 730 to 1030. It's that they kept the lights off. Why would they keep the lights off when they were searching the sister's house? I'll ask our next guest in just a minute. Don't go away. Relief factor loves hearing from pain-free customers, and they hope they can help you be one of them next. Let me tell you about Bill and his relief factor story. Bill says,

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1995. Go to Relieffactor.com or call 800 for relief. Let's see if you're next getting out of pain. For more on the search for Nancy Guthrie, we want to bring in retired FBI agent more Maureen O'Connell, a 25-year veteran of the Bureau who worked on the evidence response team. She's now the president and CEO of Maureen O'Connell and Associates, a company that provides security and investigative services. Maureen, welcome. So good to have you. So let's just start with that question that I left in the air before the break, which is they

went back to Annie Guthrie's house on Saturday night, the sister and brother-in-law's house of Savannah's. and they went at 7.30 to 10.30, according to most reports. It was a three-hour stint. Even in Arizona this time of year, that's dark. That is nighttime. And the video, let's play it. I think it's a soundbite. So standby. Okay, look at it. So, yeah, it's video. It's black inside the house, punctuated by flashes of light, which is obviously a flashlight and or a camera with flash photography. going off, but you tell me why, Maureen, you go at night, okay, fine, you don't turn on the lights inside the home. Right. And I mean, before we even get into what they were doing there late at

night, the fact of the matter is, in addition to being on the evidence response team, I was a street agent, essentially my whole career working gangs and narcotics. So I've done my share of rollback warrants on locations where we have, you know, we've done a, a, prior warrant or we've gleaned more information or whatever and freshened up that warrant. But I have never, ever even heard of going back to a location three or four times on rollback warrants. So this has to be either the development of brand new information, but these were not FBI people that were in there. Those were sheriff deputies. They didn't bring in a lot of gear. So obviously you and I know that we're on the outside, we're looking in. But what would I be doing?

if I were on the inside like that, two things. I'd be looking for blood, or I'd be looking for hair and fibers with oblique lighting, which is flashlights. And by oblique lighting, I mean, instead of holding a flashlight this where I'm looking down at the ground, I'm having it parallel with the ground, so you can see, you can see hairs, fibers, and also pro-tip, you can find your jewelry in a nanosecond when you do stuff like that. So, In my opinion, it was either hairs and fibers or they were trying to do some kind of of blood, looking for blood. But with blood, you're bringing in the luminal and the kits and the lighting.

And they didn't bring any of that in. So it would have been much more elaborate. Yes. And it would have been heavier. They did bring in one table. And one table is indicative of, hey, I need a clean place to set my gear down so it doesn't get contaminated. Because, and the tables we use are ones that you can bleed.

or, you know, you have to sterilize them when you're done. A big part of being on any type of... Well, stand by, because I want to ask you about that. There was a debate whether it was a table or whether it was like an evidence kit, and then there was speculation about what kind of kit. Apologies to go right to a break, but we are... That's the kind of show it is.

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Go to donewithdebt.com right now. That's done with debt.com, done with debt.com. We are back with Maureen O'Connell, formerly 25 years of the FBI. These are stunning, Maureen. As we went to break, the FBI released four pictures of a man clearly outside of Nancy Guthrie's front door in a ski mask, in leather gloves, wearing a backpack, and they are terrible. All I can think looking at these is, oh my God, this poor 84-year-old woman saw this man in her bedroom shortly after this. What they show for the listening audience is the man clearly at Nancy's house.

He's wearing, as I said, a ski mess of the kind that covers everything on your face except for your eyes and your mouth. And he has like large, he looks white. He's got very round, large eyes. you cannot tell in the one picture it looks like he might have facial hair but I can't be sure he does yes yeah on the last in the last photo wagon yeah okay um yeah you're right the last photo shows some facial hair there and he you can see him for the listening audience it appears ripping out the the nest camera it looks like he's looking right into the camera that is obviously on her front door there's one picture

there, Maureen, that's confusing because it looks almost like vegetation he's holding? Yeah, it's probably a bird's nest. These are black and white photos. It's probably a bird's nest that was behind the nest camera. And if you recall, Megan, this looks like the same vegetation that we saw in the blood droplets on the porch. So apparently the blood that ended up on the front porch ended up on top of this or around this vegetation. Do you remember seeing that vegetation if you play that video again. That's exactly what we're going to see. But the clothing in here is... We're looking at some of the blood here. This is the Brian Enton video of the blood droplets. See that vegetation right there? That's from a bird. I'll bet a bird made a bird's nest there.

And we can see him in one of the shots ripping it, it looks, I mean, it's clear as day, frankly, ripping it out from where the nest cam is. And it looks like, almost like in another picture, he's punching, punching it. Maureen, can you see, so with his right hand, so I think we know he's right-handed, he's punching the Ness camera so it would look. And he, in the left hand, they're both gloved and black gloves, he's holding something. But I can't, I can't make out what it is. It looks like it's got a white handle to it.

Looks almost like the next camera. I'm trying to see whether it looks like a... It looks almost like the actual Nest camera. And my guess is, yeah, he's punching with his right arm, but when he's grabbing the vegetation, that's with his left arm. That's true. So he could be a left. Okay, go ahead. Here's the statement from the FBI just released by Cash Patel, new images in the search for Nancy Guthrie.

Over the last eight days, the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department have been working closely with our private sector partners to continue to recover any images or video footage from Nancy Guthrie's home that may have been lost, corrupted, or inaccessible due to a variety of factors, including the removal of recording devices. The video was recovered from residual data located in back-end systems. Working with our partners, as of this morning, law enforcement has uncovered these previously inaccessible new images showing an armed individual, he says he's armed, appearing to have tampered with the camera at Nancy Guthrie's front door the morning of her disappearance. Anyone with information, please contact 1-800 call FBI, 1-800-call FBI, and now the sheriff has released an identical statement. So he says it was recovered from residual data located in back-end

systems. What does that mean to you, Maureen? That means that stuff that, for example, when you get that alert on your phone that says, we've detected someone at your home or something, even if you don't have a subscription, the company should have a thumbnail of those images, and they should be able to get them. It was really surprising when I heard that they didn't have any images, because I have a guy on my team that is a world-class expert. I mean, scary, he's so good. And he told me that he's shocked that they weren't able to do that.

So my guess is the FBI was able to do this because, this is rather sophisticated. But so they have to store that type of a image when they put it out as a thumbnail. So if nothing else, it's on their system, not on Nancy's, if that makes any sense. And I think they're saying are. In other words, they were captured in the moments before he tore down the ring camera or the Ness camera and the Ness camera might have transmitted something back to the system. Or they hold it on their system.

But I think why they're saying armed is if you look at this first image, which I didn't know what he was holding at first, but I'm looking at it now. That's a holstered weapon in what we would call a concealed carry holster. It's supposed to be on the inside of your pants, but it looks like he's got it somehow on the, maybe it's maybe I don't know how he has it attached to the front of his pants. But I think that's what that is. That is a weapon. Yep. Is that a gun? It is a gun. And if, you know, when I, when I come on again, I can, or I can run and grab it concealed, I have one that looks almost exactly like that. And it's made of this like rubbery kind of material

so that if you put it inside your pants, inside your waistband, it sticks a little bit to your skin and a little bit to your clothing. And that's exactly what that looks like to me. That's what that is. He's got a holstered weapon right there. I mean, this is so terrifying to me. You're your lifelong law enforcement. I don't know how this grabs you, but this is so terrifying to me. Well, this is how this. Think of this large man with this face mask and a gun and a backpack like cook and the gloves showing.

This is every woman's worst nightmare to wake up to this, never mind it 84 years old. Absolutely. The other thing I want to say is when, you, I've, worked a lot of kidnappings on the evidence response team, mainly of children, unfortunately. But the one question you want to ask yourself is, does the perpetrator have a proclivity or a predisposition to violence? And in this case, here's a man with a gun on the front porch, and 41 minutes later, we've got blood on the front porch. So the answer to the yes. And that is not good for anyone.

The other thing I don't know. I mean, everybody listening to this who can't see the images is, of course, wondering, is it the brother-in-law? Because that's the only one we've heard mentioned. I don't mean to condemn this man because we have nothing other than Ashley Banfield's reporting from a senior law enforcement officer that she trusts implicitly, that she says is impeccably sourced, that he right now may be the prime suspect as of last. uh, Tuesday. Right now may be the prime suspect. Okay, so that's been one week ago. I will tell you, I don't know other than it does indeed appear that he has dark facial hair because in that one circle around the mouth, you can see hair above the top lip and you can see black hair under the bottom lip. But here's what I do want to say, Maureen, you and I might not be able to determine who that is from looking at it. But if you're married to him, you would. Absolutely. You look at the shoes. There's so much information here. First of all, he's wearing rather distinctive clothing. He's not wearing all black. All black would be a lot more difficult to decipher what he's wearing. He looks like his

feet may be a little bit shorter, but the Bureau can determine, or law enforcement can determine exactly how tall this person is based on this because they're going to, there's, I'm sure you can do it easier with AI, but Jim Fitzgerald can tell you too that they can, you know, they're going to count those bricks and the distance he is and where he's standing. standing on the mat, they're going to reenact that. And I'm sure Jim's been involved in a lot of cases where they've determined how tall he is. But that clothing is very distinctive. Speaker the devil, we called Jim when this news broke and asked him to join us. And here he is. Jim Fitzgerald. Jim, these pictures are shocking. Your reaction to this breaking news.

Yeah, I'm literally looking at it for the first time in the last few minutes. And this is amazing. And my good friend, Maureen, knows her stuff as well as anyone. She's absolutely right. They're going to have all kinds of photo experts at breaking this down. And we only have a black and white image here. I'm not sure possibly there's color somewhere else, at least what I'm looking at. But this guy came, he came ready for bear. He's got his abduction kit with him in some kind of a backpack. I can't exactly see what it is.

But it looks like he has something on his back. Of course, wearing gloves, wearing face masks, which tells us something now. We thought all along that the person who did this may have known there was no subscription service and that's why they didn't have to worry about it. This guy didn't want to take that chance and wore the full mask here that could cover almost all of his face. But as Maureen was saying, as I just signed on here, you can see some features through there. And that's a big clue.

Shoes, pants, son. Megan, you mentioned his wife, you know, his buddies, his sibling, someone, especially with this award out there, this changes the entire paradigm. of this investigation. It does nothing. We still don't know if this guy is the kidnapper looking for money, meaning the for-profit part of this. We don't know if that's the person sending these things, but this person at least is the abductor. And that's where we have to start right now. That's huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, investigative break that they were able to recover these images. All I can think, Maureen, is this is how Tyler Robinson was apprehended. They got an image of him

from the stairwell going up to the roof of Charlie Kirk's murder. And he wasn't identifiable. He, too, tried to disguise himself except to people who knew him. So if this guy's married or has buddies or colleagues, if he works, you know, it's going to be a lot. Like, if this were my husband, I would know. If this were, you know, my executive producer, I would know. I'd know the build.

I'd know the general facial look. Like, he's not as masked as he thinks. And that initial stance in that first photo is very distinctive to me. What I would be doing is hopefully the law enforcement initially on scene and hopefully the FBI ERT team did a bunch of dumpster diving or checked a bunch of trash or at least made notations as to when and where the trash pickups were and what quadrant of the dump they went to so that they can start searching because or even the trash at that Circle K where there was some activity initially when that night, I think someone was saying that there was some activity

at that Circle K location. Yes. I would also check that. And the cops went there and asked for a surveillance video from the Circle K. The Circle K employees confirmed that to the media. Right. But I always go to the trash. I spend a lot of time in dumpsters and it's horrifying in some ways.

but you get a lot of really, really great information. I'll bet. So when you look at this, when you look at this picture, tell me what, like, as a law enforcement person, Jim, what are the cops looking at on him? They're, like, I see a backpack that there's something odd about how the backpack appears around his shoulders. I'm not sure what I'm seeing there. It's like there's the black strap, but then there's something underneath it.

Like, maybe it's a pad. And there's a couple of reflective stripes maybe at the top. I'm not sure. But is all that just distinctive wear for the. backpack and or the sweatshirt that the cops are going to try to figure out the maker of perhaps? Like, what do you do with that information? Well, I'm looking at this initially, Megan, as a behavioralist. And what this tells me, profiler, and what this tells me is this, and we've said this early on,

I certainly did. The subductor was mission-oriented. This guy wasn't just drunk walking down the street and happened to see a house, you know, a car driving, he's driving by in the car. Oh, let's check this place out. This guy was planned. This event was planned. He was very well set up ready to do this.

And he's carrying on his back. We call them rape kits. We call them kill kits. This is his, I hate to say it, it could be one of those, but certainly his abduction kit has in the back. Handcuffs, you know, electrical ties, duct tape. He has all kinds of material in there pepper spray. Who knows what he's carrying in there to help out his cause in completing this

mission? So this tells us so much more, not random, planned, who exactly the person is. But yeah, to go back to your original question, they have all kinds of databases set up at the Bureau in terms of looking at different products and brands. Maureen said shoes, sneakers, whatever they are. I can't tell here necessarily. But they're going to try to trace every one of these items of clothing, whether this guy decides to keep them. There's been some of these people that are cheap skates, don't want to get rid of their stuff, or decides it was already. disposed of or now will be disposed of that this picture came out. He may have caught a whole week

went by and he caught the biggest break in the world, including that some people from Eastern Europe decided to do a kidnapping. We don't know that for fact. Yes. And he's a, oh man, wow, I am so lucky here. And again, I can't 100% rule out. This guy that also sends some, you know, emails looking for money. But at the same time, I think I'm leaning towards there being separate incidents, one, the opportunist, the latter part of it, but this is a big clue here. And does anyone here now, Megan or Maureen? Is this from the Nest camera that we thought had no subscription? It's got to be. Yeah. It's, yes, it's got any here's, here's more from director Cash Pichel. This is just coming in. There's video. Videos coming in. We're going to put it on the board. Additional,

this is from Cash posted on X, additional recovered images from the same camera at Nancy Guthrie's front door. So it's, it is the Nest Cam. The morning of her disappearance. including two videos of the individual. Anyone with information, please contact 1-800, call FBI. Okay, so here are the new images he just sent in. Here's the person as he approaches the door. You can see he's holding, he's got one hand close to his front pocket. Here's another one as he's approaching the scene from a little farther away.

You can see he's kind of like, I want to say he's portly. Yeah, he's definitely not slim. Yeah, he's not slim. I wouldn't describe him as lanky. He's not incredibly tall. I'm sure the FBI can figure out how tall he is, but he looks six feet or under to me. I don't know.

I'm not good at guessing these things. But here he is now approaching. There's video, you guys. Look at this of him approaching the nest cam. Hold on. We're getting it queued up. I don't know if you guys can see it on your phone. But he walks up slowly.

He takes his right hand, the side, like where your pinky knuckle is, and he starts kind of like, it looks like he's banging it. He's trying to get the, not hard, though. Then he turns around. Now I can see the back of the backpack. This is going to be very helpful.

They're going to be able to see what brand this is. He walks away. He's walking out toward, holy cow, what did he just do? He picked up vegetation. Mori, he picked up vegetation. He walked it, trying to knock the nest camera off. I'm getting this queued up. It appears he failed.

He's not really banging it. hard. It's almost gentle. He turns around. He bends down. He's looking down. He walks to the archway that leads you out of, off of her patio to the exterior. He picks up vegetation from the ground. And then it flashes and you don't, and that's the end of that frame. Okay, now there's another frame. Now he's got the vegetation in his hand. He's using it, Maureen. He's using it. It's like now it's stuck, maybe it's his camouflage. He's, it seems like he's sticking it into the camera lens. Here, we've got one.

Let's play it. Okay, this is the one, the second one where it looks like he's shoving it. Now he's got the vegetation in his hand, and it looks like he's shoving it into the lens. Maybe he doesn't think he can get the Ness camera down. Yeah, maybe he thought it was hardwired. He thought it was hardwired. So he thought he could just obscure the lens, but then realize he couldn't. That makes sense.

because the previous one, hold on, we'll get it for you, is a treasure trove, you guys. It's a treasure trove. And also, here's the one. Okay, here's the one that I was trying to describe. He's walking up. Look at him with the gloved hand for five, like five gentle taps. He's covering the ring, the nest camera, like the top of it.

Another two taps. He turns his back. Look how that backpack is. He's ready for bear, but I guess he doesn't. bring duct tape or something with him. But he just wasn't doing it. He doesn't want to do it out in front of the house yet. So he's trying to pick up something very convenient to him.

Oh, he went back and picked up the vegetation. Well, yes. Did he go back for the gun? And now we re-looped it. Did he go back for the gun? No. Well, I think he went back for the vegetation because if you watch this, now I've had the advantage of seeing a couple more times.

Look, so he's bending over. So now look, Maureen, he's going to the back. He bends down. He picks something up in his hand. He comes back. Hold on. He's going to walk back to the camera here. Hold on.

I just want to make sure, are you guys playing the same one that I have in my phone? Because the one I have in my phone, hold on. No, no, hold on. Let me just make sure the one I have in my phone. He's got something in his hand. It is the vegetation. You can see it.

Okay. Okay, so I'm not sure if you guys can see the very last frame, but Maureen, he grabs the vegetation. You can see it's like all the leaves at the very last shot of that reel we just played where you can see his backpack stuff to the brink with materials. And then the next frame the FBI sent is of the vegetation getting like shoved into the camera. And Savannah now is posting the pictures on her Instagram too with the following message. She must have just, it reads, we believe she is still alive.

Bring her home. Anyone with information, please contact 1-800 call FBI. Oh, my God. I'm trying to determine. handedness of him. It looks like he's holding things in right and left hand. Obviously, right hand, 90% of the population, left-hander would narrow down that suspect. But we can't really tell that so far. Fitz, I would guess right-handed, even though I see him using both hands, but I would guess right-handed for one reason. And that's the orientation of the weapon in his waistband with...

Whoa, whoa, I didn't even see the weapon. Oh. Yeah, you weren't here when we went over that. Please show me. In the still shots, Jim. in the still shots. Show Jim the still shots, you guys, where you can see, like, the first shot of the still shots. Megan, should I run and get my holster to show you? Yeah, could you? Yes, stand by.

Could you, Maureen? Stand by. You do that, and I'll talk to Jim. Yeah. What Maureen said here, Jim, if you look at it, I don't know if you can, I'm not sure if we can zoom in on it, but on your phone you certainly could. But it looks, it's right where his crotch is in front of his crotch,

and it's white with a black outline. And we're getting a closer up shot. so you can see. Here too, though, you can see it where he's punching the ring cam. Can you see it down below Jim with his other hand? He's holding it. Seems an unusual place. And Maureen was saying... Well, Maureen was saying she thinks it's a holster that would normally go on the inside of your pants that kind of sticks to your leg more. Okay. And the reason we first notice it is because Cash Patel's tweet says he's armed. And... Okay. So then we started looking for where. And

Maureen said that's, she thinks that's the weapon. It's white. It's got a black outline. It definitely has something black coming out the top of it, which looks consistent with a gun, though. Yeah, that's a much clearer picture. I think first time I've seen this picture that you have up there now. That is clearly a weapon. Of course, blown up, you can tell make and model most likely. And yeah, that would definitely lean towards right-handed if the holster is, you know, above the right leg there.

So, which again, 90% of the population, but still interesting to know. again, more, even more mission-oriented than I thought, including everything in that, almost like a parachute. It's backed in there, of course, it's not. But he has plenty of stuff in that backpack, which would enable him to carry any, carry through with any contingency today or that night when things went wrong. Let's get a still shot of that backpack, you guys, so we can take a closer look at it. Jim, what we do know a couple of, we don't know who this is, but we do know a couple of things here. we know for sure Nancy Guthrie did not wander off. No.

I mean, that theory's dead. We thought it was dead anyway because we knew the nest cameras were destroyed and taken. So whatever. We said that at the top of the show. We know that's true now. She did not wander off. She was taken. She was taken by a man, at least one man.

By the way, sheriff, this is just in from the sheriff's office. There are no press briefings planned at this time. Sheriff Nanos is not conducting one-on-one interviews. Same message he's been giving. he's not updating us based on these new information, this new information that's going to have to come from the FBI, if anybody. So we know that Nancy Guthrie did not wander off. We know she was taken. She was abducted. We don't know that it was a kidnapping. We don't know that this person had anything to do whatsoever with the Bitcoin demands or any other demands. We believe the

family's been outspoken about any and all demands they've received, that there's not a secret other demand that this person may have made. We don't know what the motive is. He went in there, meaning business armed. We know he hurt Nancy in some way, and we know he got her out of there. Can we see, I didn't even look to see whether there's any shot of a vehicle in the back. You can see Clear as day, her mailbox down the lane. I don't actually, is, I actually don't know the property well enough to know. Is that her driveway on the other side of that black mailbox? Like is her driveway circular leading to a straightaway gravel? Yes.

Okay. So then there's no car visible in this shot, at least, that I can say. I don't see a car visible in the shot at all. Doesn't mean he didn't drive one. I don't know how the hell he got a 150-pound woman out of there who could barely move if he didn't have a car. But that's kind of good news. speak well i guess it's not great news because it'd be better if we had images of the car in this shot but maybe it was closer to the road maybe they have a better idea of what vantage point to look

from to find any potential um vantage point on this but this looks like a treasure trove of new information moraine tell us about your gun treasure well my husband has the longer one but here's my smaller glock and see this is the the um holster i'm talking about it's tacky on the exterior but the other one we have does have that longer nose for a longer barreled handgun. So I can't tell what kind of gun that is from there. But see how it goes a lot longer. That's a longer. And actually, the back of that does look like a glock.

You think they're going to be able to tell what kind of gun it is? Do you think like law enforcement is going to have that figured out? Yeah, pretty close. They'll be able to tell. It's clearly a semi-automatic. It looks like with an extended magazine perhaps. in it for carrying extra rounds, but they need more of a close-up to determine that. Yeah.

They'll be able to enhance that. So that'll, I mean, I don't know exactly how you put that together with a, you know, you can't just figure out who's bought, who's purchased semi-automatic handguns, even if it's a Glock with an extended magazine. I mean, you could go back years. You know, you're not going to be able to get to it from that. But maybe from the backpack guys, like the brand or the backpack. I mean, that's what they did in the pipe bomb case.

They went to every radio shack. They tried to figure out what are the ingredients that would be in this thing. And just by shoe leather police work, you know, step by step, they found themselves what they say is the perpetrator. It so often comes down to good police work. And this is going to come down to what you said from the very beginning, Megan, which is someone is going to identify this person. Someone is looking at this and saying, oh, shit, pardon me.

they know because of the compilation of all these different little elements. And they're going to realize that whoever that's, and that's why they put out the picture. Whoever that someone is somehow started acting funky around Saturday, and then certainly the whole week after the post-offense behavior we're talking about. So we don't know if this guy's a loner, married kids. I would say more on the loner side. But they're going to, boy, that could pass for, you know, my husband, Joe, or my brother, Bill.

and yeah, he's been really weird the last week and a half, and he's been following things on the internet left and right and sending off these emails, I mean, that could be for something else. But he's really looking into this, and that can also, so the behavioral aspects of not just the identity of this person based on their description in these videos and these still photos. Or your neighbor that you see. Well, the other thing we have, too, thankfully from the walking,

we can see his gate, Maureen. We can see how he walks, which is also another big tell. Yes, and I notice how people walk. I can tell their footfall as they walk down the hallway, who's coming, and this is the break I think we've all been waiting for. The other thing I want to say is with that weapon, even though we can't, we can't definitively tie anything to that, if within this pool of individuals that the FBI and the law enforcement has been honing in on and asking for DNA and looking for everything, if within that pool, they have someone that owns that type of weapon, that's just going to narrow that that group of individuals down considerably. Good point. Or who looks like this. I mean, they may have a gardener who's got these eyes exactly. Forgive me, I hate to blame the gardener at all time. I mean, I was like, they may have somebody that they're already talking to who's got these exact eyes and this exact build. And that's, that's excluding the wife who's going to see that jacket.

The jacket's actually pretty distinctive as I'm looking at him banging on the nest cam. It appears to be a warmer jacket with like the fleece. You can see sort of up the sleeve a little. It's at least layers of white, I don't know, wool. It looks kind of like fleece, so it's warm. But I would see it there? I would caution people against thinking that the jacket is striped because what I think that is reflective material. on the jacket for hiking or something like that.

What the hell is in that backpack, guys? That's a really scary thought. Looks like it's filled to the brim, whatever it is. And he was prepared for everything, although weirdly, and again, he may have had duct tape with him, but he didn't just put that over top of the camera. He's pulling out, you know, flora vegetation of some sort from the front yard. I mean, kind of a MacGyver rule there, play there on his part. it obviously didn't work that in that regard.

And to go back to identification, just real quick, I worked the BTK case early on in 2000, and then I watched the special, I guess it was on Netflix in the last week or so. And here he kept his whole rape kit and kill kit, B2K kit, I guess you could call it. Right in the house, the wife apparently had seen it a few times, bowling ball bag for all kinds of handcuffs and ties, duct tape, and she never thought of even questioning about it. So folks, if you're out there and there's somebody that has weird bags or backpacks in this case,

and there's any kind of unusual material there not really needed for hunting or camping, and the person kind of looks like the one we're seeing on the video, please call the tip line number and let's get this guy identified. Maybe they're innocent, but let's get that person out there. And I guarantee you, Maureen knows this. We've been on these task forces in the past. The phone is ringing off the hook and emails are coming in. Now the question is how do they characterize all these things?

And who do they prioritize? That triage. But here's my question right now. Here's where I, what I, what we need to ask, if you're this guy and you are out there right now, and this is an oh shit moment because your picture is now going to be plastered all over every newspaper, every television station, every podcast, everything in America. What do you do? Is there, is there a threat to the public?

If Nancy Guthrie is still alive, does this help her? I mean, obviously it helps her if they can catch him, like ASAP, but does he panic? You know, like, should there be a message coming soon from the FBI? Like, don't do anything. You know, like, I don't know. How do you handle this? I would say it could go either way, but I would think it might help Nancy. The only, you know, it gives me great joy to think of this person squirming, even though his squirm is nowhere as frightening as what Nancy went.

through. However, with that backpack being that packed, I'm wondering, did he bring a tarp or a blanket or something? Because, you know, Jim and I know too well how hard it is to move a body, but it's a lot easier if you have a blanket or a tarp. A tarp. That's how hunters do it. You know, I was thinking for a second, maybe if like the remnants of the nest camera got these shots, the remnants of it got him leaving, but that's not what happened. This is, the nest camera is still in its, it's in its spot. The nest camera did get pictures of the perpetrator. It's just, and he did remove the camera. It's just something in the system. Even though the sheriff told us that a presser, he was told by the company that they hadn't gotten it so far, but he said,

we're asking them to continue checking. Something, I mean, they hit pay dirt. They got, they got the gold, you guys. Like they, something. somehow the system did still have this. Megan, do you think this is what they were looking for in Nancy's house last night in the dark? Was using oblique lighting like I talked about at the top of this show to try to identify any of this vegetation that might be on the floor where boots were or where he keeps his shoes or in closets or anything like that? I think that might be something. That's a great question. That's a great question.

Like a face mask? Yeah, or boots. I would say the face mask is gone. I would guess because of the situation and because how big it's gotten, no matter what has happened, my guess is he would have gotten rid of a lot of this, but Fitz would know better than I would.

However, if he's not a really fastidious, fastidiously clean person, we'd be able to find some of that foliage in that house. But the argument against it is if they went into the brother-in-law's house, and if this is him, and there is facial hair, but that's all we know for sure.

I mean, we made a close-up shot of the one face, and that is definitely a mustache, a dark mustache above his top lip there. And in the other picture, it appears that there's facial hair down below, the bottom lip, too. If that were the case, Maureen, and they found a backpack,

certainly if they found the face mask, I think we'd be talking about an arrest right now and not an appeal to the public to help us identify this guy, right? And what does it tell us, if anything, I'm going to start calling you Fitz too. I like that, Jim. Sorry. What does it tell us that, no, I like it. You guys have a history. What does it tell us that they haven't placed him under arrest and that they actually are issuing a general appeal to the public for any information? Does that tell us that it's not the brother-in-law? They don't think it's him. I'll start here, Megan, but we know, and Maureen knows this well, they've had these pictures for a few days.

They didn't just get them this morning and release them right away. So we're talking about what does this offender doing with these things, what is hiding them, destroying them, what could happen to, of course, Mrs. Guthrie. These are all kinds of questions involved in the post-offense behavior of this particular offender. And now that the stakes have been raised as of the last hour or so, that he now, he now. is aware of this is like we are on this panel that that's when he has some decisions to make uh let's hopefully he plays it smart here and if he somehow does have uh mrs guthrie in his custody and she is still alive nothing bad happens there but uh but yeah if he had a mustache and i won't go into whether it's the brother-in-law or not can't roll anything out or anyone out but if we're

seeing a little bit of a mustache two things either it was planted there in advance and it uh as a as a as a decoy or uh or if it's real, it's come off as of about an hour ago. And that is something we should put out there. Did someone change their identity? We know this very well for these people that become suspects in cases. Is there anything they've done to change their identity? Obviously, did they leave town? Have they missed work last week? Have they missed other commitments where they should have been somewhere? And again, look at the visual representation of this person. It's not 100% clear. We get it on video, but tie in these other factors and put them in these individual silos in your life and then

see at the bottom if the grain all comes out say well wait a minute yeah i have a guy he's kind of goofy a buddy and he was absent all last week and he's always talking about he wants to make a big you know big money hit somehow and uh and he carries his gun and he always brags about it and and that's that's what missal may come together and someone may be that's what's going to go to the the top of that triage list that morin referenced in terms of who the suspect is if they get that kind of a call let me um all week we've been having uh different experts with your your kind of background on the show. One of them as Jonathan Gilliam. He just texted us his thoughts. And here's an interesting one, Maureen. He writes, he's not in any hurry. That's for sure. And he had no problem

walking right up to that camera, although it was really dark there. So he might not have seen it. But I find it very interesting how he turned around and went straight to something on the ground as if he knew it was there. Which leads me back to the familiarity he has and how he got that familiarity. Perhaps it's one of the roofers or some other type of laborer. Perhaps this was a robbery and Nancy woke up. If that's the case, I would expect her body to be close to home. But if it's a relative, then the heat is getting heavy and they will break soon. He also sees gun on the waistband mustache for sure. He says, you know what else? This tells me the nest cameras are actually recording what you're doing even when you don't have a subscription. There's a fair amount of Americans

who are kind of freaked out about their nest camera and their ring camera after that Super Bowl commercial that tried to get us to get one so that we could find lost dogs. Then we all realize that we're all on camera all the time and somebody at Ring is watching it, which is creepy. But I think this point about, he's right, Maureen, how he turned around

and went straight to something on the ground as if he knew it was there, that plant, the vegetation he picked up. It was weird. Can we see that video? again, you guys, can you play that again? Because it was, like, completely confident. He did a couple of bangs with the fist.

Here he is. He's walking up for listening audience. One, two, three, four, five. Gentle, gentle bangs. Now he's cupping it. A couple more gentle, like, taps almost. And he turns around. Like, is it coming off easily?

No, it's not. Yeah. Yep. He walks over there. Look what I found. This should work. Yep. He bends down.

Like, he knew exactly. exactly, you know, where he was going and then came right back. I mean, I don't know if that shows familiarity with the property. And if it does, it could certainly suggest he's just been there before, but it is interesting. He knew right where to go, Maureen. Well, the backpack tells me he was not there to rob anybody. There's no room to put anything in that backpack. If you're going there to steal something, you're going to have an empty bag. It's like when you go to Milan or something, you're going to pick up some great Italian clothing. You're bringing an empty bag with you so you can fill it up. He's not going in there with a jam-packed backpack. What could he, I mean, unless she's a diamond

broker, there's going to be no room in there for anything. And why would he have a gun out for an 84-year-old lady? This was an abduction. That's what this was. I agree with you. This wasn't a burglary. This was an abduction. It was planned. And he knew about, yes, that's the thing. So, so let's put kidnapping to the side for one second. If you want to go murder an 84-year-old woman, why don't you leave her there? Why you did the mask, you got your gloves on, what is the point of we think taking her out alive? We only think that because there's blood. I mean, A, she's gone, so we know she was taken out, but B, she was bleeding. I mean, a corpse can bleed too, but she was bleeding. And the pacemaker was connected to the iPhone as of at least 228. It's possible he then

he then killed her or I don't know because I think the pacemaker would show she had died prior to her pacemaker disconnecting from the phone. So I do believe she was removed from the home still alive. But I mean, I suppose it could be he didn't want the mess. He didn't want the evidence. And so his plan was, I'm getting her out of here and I'm going to go either kill her someplace else or maybe it wasn't attempted kidnapping. And maybe that kidnapping is still underway. Maybe he's just, maybe he got foiled by these charlatans who zoomed in trying to claim they were the kidnappers

and is still planning on making a demand. You'd think he would have left a note or some sort at the scene. That's the best way to prove you're the real deal as a kidnapper. Leave something at the scene. And you can guard it with gloves and keep your fingerprints, DNA off it, The Unabomber got away with that for a year. Nothing was ever found on his documents. His writing, of course, that eventually got to him.

And maybe that could have been a clue for this guy that he was concerned about. But yeah, and with an older woman like this, why does he need a gun? Did he really think he'd have to shoot her or someone else? I would also say that if you're going to leave, if you're a stranger, you'd be more inclined to leave the body behind because no one's going to connect you to it. if you're someone, and I'm not going to say family, but if you're somehow connected to that house, you may then have more of a reason for taking the body so there'd be no other indices of death or indications of death in that regard. So it's, we just don't know.

Of course, we never can rule out the kidnapping. Well, there's something else here, Jim. Let me jump in. There's another video just dropped, and we're going to put it up. Hold on a second. I'm trying to see it. Okay, it's on the screen. He's walking up with his head down, weirdly.

Kind of casually. It's just a few seconds. It's hard to see. He's kind of just sauntering up there very casually. He does have an interesting kind of walk. It's almost like even with the mask on, he didn't necessarily want the camera to look at him directly. So he kind of puts his head down. But eventually, you can see it.

So that alter, he modified it. himself in that regard. But this is like, keep my head down for now. There's nothing on the floor that I think would be attracted to him. Yes, guys, Debbie Murphy just said she sees something flashing in his mouth. And I thought I saw that before. Yes. I don't know if you can see it.

It does look like a light. He has a... It looks like he's got a light in his mouth. Oh, a small flashlight. People sometimes, like, even cops will hold a flashlight. in their mouth like this. It looked like that here. Look here.

Yeah. Look at this one. It's hard to tell if it was a reflection or not. But we can see the beam when the other one you just showed, Megan. You can see the beam at the ground. So that is a flashlight. Yes. So why does he have the flashlight in his mouth as he's walking up?

His head is for listening audience now I can see it clearly. He's coming onto the property underneath the archway that brings you onto her patio. His head is down. He's looking down almost like he's for. But obviously it's a disguise to keep his face from looking into the cam. And you can see in the first frame of it, as he's walking toward, there's a light in his mouth that is on and then it's off and then he walks up and then it comes back on because we saw it earlier in a still shot of him messing with the nest cam. But why, why when you're approaching the home?

Because it's pitch black. Because it's pitch black out there. And you want to keep your hands. hands-free, and so you put the flashlight in your mouth. It'd be interesting if they found a flashlight in there, like in the flurry of activity, it may have been left behind. And now that's another thing from these videos that has the wheels in my brain turning. One of them is touch DNA. They're going to be looking for touch DNA everywhere on those plants,

because even though he's wearing gloves, he's wearing leather gloves, not sterile, you know, latex gloves. He's wearing probably his own leather gloves, which will have his DNA on them. They're going to be able to go to the housing of where that camera was, where he wrestled it from the housing. And this is the break we've been waiting for. Do you think, Maureen, that they have other images that they're not releasing? Because what we don't see in here is him successfully get the Ness Cam down. Yes. I would think they may have more. Well, especially since we've gotten three iterations in the last three minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if they had more. I remember, if you recall, the camera that the ERT members got off the roof of the house apparently had some sort of solar panel attached to it. So that might be something they're trying to retrieve information from as well. That one too could have recovered images.

They got that one later in the game. It's possible they're searching that one right now. Were you going to say something, Jim? No, Maureen more or less covered it there. But the flashlight part, yeah, free up his hands. They obviously sell them like a miners type of hat or certainly a band you can put around your head, which is very effective for freeing up your hands and having lights. This guy didn't go that route.

He had some sort that he quits in his mouth. He's probably, and again, I'm looking at this from a behavior. behavioralist perspective. If anyone knows this guy, I wouldn't put a flashlight in my mouth. I wouldn't put anything in my mouth except food and my hands and I'm just like that. A lot of people are, especially post-COVID. This is a guy who may walk around and do little chores around the house when it's even semi-dark with a flashlight in his mouth. So again, there's another clue folks out there if you're listening besides the looks on the video, the backpack, all that stuff. He's been missing the last week We're very preoccupied.

Who do you know that carries a flashlight in their mouth? Not everyone does that. It could be dangerous, too. It's very true. And you can knock in the mouth. That would make most of us feel very uncomfortable. Like, most people would not want to do that unless they were like in a cave trying to rescue themselves. Plus, it's a hard metal.

You can knock your teeth out very easily. So Fitz is right. That isn't something that a lot of people do. But I have seen, I have seen guys do that before. I prefer the headlamp personally. Or under my arm as a cop. Here's my other. Abigail Finan.

my trustee assistant, she makes sure we always have a headlamp in my family. She takes care of us. I want to ask what this rules out. Like, I would suggest this doesn't tell, this doesn't scream Mexican cartel to me, but hold that thought because we have to take a break. We're coming up to the end of the hour. I'd love to hold you guys over. There's obviously a lot happening right now. So we'll hold you over. We'll take a break. And we will be right back. Don't go away. One of the biggest problems in American healthcare right now is access. You usually cannot get medication until you're already sick. Healthcare should not only work when it's convenient for the system. It should work when people actually need it. That's where all family pharmacy is different. They let you plan ahead by ordering prescription meds before you're sick. You order online, a licensed doctor reviews your request, and writes the prescription. And then your medication ships straight to your door. No waiting rooms, no insurance delays, no last minute scrambling.

They offer antibiotics, antivirals, tamiflu, ivormectin, and hundreds of other prescription medications. This is about access, responsibility, and being prepared, giving you the ability to plan ahead. Go to all-familyfarmacy.com slash Megan. And use the code Megan 10 to get 10% off your next order. Hey, everyone. It's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM. It's called the Megan Kelly channel, and it is where you will hear the truth. Unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies.

Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Morin Callahan, Emily Dershinsky, Jesse Kelly, real clear politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news only on the Megan Kelly channel, SiriusXM 11, and on the Sirius XM app. We are back now with the Megan Kelly show covering breaking news in the investigation into what happened to Nancy Guthrie, the FBI in a stunning move, released. shocking pictures of what is clearly the perpetrator who hurt Nancy Guthrie, who seems to have abducted her for what purpose we do not know, releasing images that appear to be from her nest camera on her front door before he was, we are told, able to disconnect it. We are told that the disconnection happened at 1.47am, and therefore it would appear that these images we are seeing now, courtesy of the FBI happened just prior to that because it took this guy a minute to figure out

exactly how to disconnect the thing. Back with me now, Maureen O'Connell. She's co-host of the best-case podcast and Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of Cold Red Podcast. And they're both long-term veterans of the FBI. So here's the real question now. If you're this guy, and I don't know, like, I have no idea. To me, I'll just say it. To me, he looks younger than the brother-in-law. His mustache looks black and the brother-in-law's is gray. And the brother-in-law's eyes are more hooded than appear in this guy. Okay? So I don't mean to beat up on the brother-in-law, but since he's been out there, I will say to me, this doesn't look like it's a match, but we'll find out. The FBI is going to know this very, very soon. But if this, if this is, if this, is the guy, or let me start with this. Does this look like a professional hitman to you, like based on what you guys saw in that video? If I can start with this, Megan, there are very, very few actual, legit, real, quote-unquote professional hitman out there. Of course, the mob has some. The cartels have them. People like that, they'll take out mostly their own kind.

But for professional, you know, this alleged professional hitman, hitman that Hollywood likes to talk about, there are very, very few in that regard. It doesn't mean there's some freelancer out there talking to some guys, see something on the dark web and says, hey, I could do something like this. What's the address? And this is what happens. But these cases of, again, hit men, unless there's some lover triangle involved and somehow that's where the other party gets taken out, they're relatively, I would say very rare, quite frankly. And Maureen, maybe you have more experience with that than my career, but they're just not seen very often. What about the cartel piece of it? Like that's where I left us before we left. Is this, does this look to you like somebody who could possibly be affiliated with a cartel? Here's the deal with the cartel, because I worked narcotics all those years.

The cartel's job, if they're kidnapping someone, it's a hit-and-run operation, meaning you get in there, you get the hell out, you do whatever you can. You have it already set up for the ransom. You get that money and you drop that victim off someplace and let her figure out how to reach out to her family so that you don't have to. I mean, it's a situation that's rapid, fluid, and the whole goal is to get money. That isn't at all what we've seen here. It's just been this crazy rigmarole. And with so many data points, they don't even seem to coincide with one another.

It's like if you had her, prove that she's alive. As I watch this, you guys, and I mean, we're all subject to our own priors and biases, right? but I'm thinking about the actress Rebecca Schaefer. And, you know, she was on my sister, Sam. She was a rising star. She started with Pam Dauber. Remember her? This is back in the 80s.

Sure. And she was the younger sister. And she had just gotten to Hollywood and her star was rising. And there was a man who became obsessed with her who was watching her show. And she had not yet protected herself by figuring out how to layer, how to put layers between you and the public. She was easy to find. he rang the doorbell with a dozen roses, and she opened the door. And long story short, he murdered her right there on the doorstep because he was obsessed with her. I mean, because he was crazy. But he was

functioning. He wasn't, you know, fire breathing, walking down the sidewalk. People did not know he was crazy, but he was crazy. And he killed her. And I can't help but think whether this is a possibility with this guy who just, I mean, you can't rule it out. that there was some obsession, obviously, with Savannah. I don't think many people would develop some weird obsession with an 84-year-old senior citizen, but it's possible that somebody was obsessed with Savannah, and she's, I believe, impossible to get to, but her mom's not. Right.

And this guy seems kind of young. You can't totally tell, obviously, but to me, he looks kind of young. And, you know, well, he's got that young. She's where the psychotic break happens. I'm really out on a limb here. I'm just saying this is an angle that deserves some discussion. I agree, but I think we're forgetting something, or, you know, we may not have gotten to the point where we notice something really important right now, and that is he's at the front door. The front door is not what they were talking about in those pressers.

They were talking about the back door was left open, like he entered through the back door. And, you know, was there, we still don't know from the sheriff if, in fact, there was forced entry. but if there wasn't forced entry, this person's at the front door. How'd they get in? So the forced entry is going to be key. So if my memory serves, Ashley Banfield reported that there was forced entry, and the sheriff has steadfastly refused to comment on it. He won't say. And it is, maybe that's what the video shows next, because I don't think we've seen all the video because we do not see the moment where he gets the Ness camera down.

Ashley's reporting that these are nest cams, not ring cams. But we don't see the moment where it disconnects and, like, goes dark. So clearly they didn't show that for some reason. And you're right. Ashley's also reporting that the back door was open and that the guy removed the nest cam from the back door too. And that's strange. He's at the front door. He's going in the front door.

We think he left the front door. Well, we don't see him go in. But we believe he exited through the front door because that's where Nancy's blood was. So clearly he at least attempted to leave with Nancy through the front door. Okay, but from a cartel standpoint, I can tell you right now, a cartel member is not going to hit that front door because it had a burglar gate on it. Those things are very hard to breach. Trust me when I tell you from experience. If I'm going to breach the door, one of those burglar doors on it, you know, the metal. It's all metal. And the frame is actually screwed sideways

about with six, eight, 12-inch bolts into the side of the frame of the door. It's not something that you just put on, you know, those metal ones that look kind of Spanish, but you can't get through them. They're extremely hard to breach. Well, they're very hard to breach. So if that next video shows him trying to breach that door and he's good at it, that's going to be a person from a different level. if it shows him running around the back. So maybe what happened next is he went around, yeah, maybe he went around to the back door and got in that way. And I mean, if that's, if that happened, like if there's video showing him struggling, he can't get the door open and then he gives up and goes around to the back, then I think we can safely say it's somebody familiar with the property. Could be, could be a landscaper, could be somebody. You know, it's like the person knew exactly where the vegetation was and what they wanted to grab and they did it. So it could be a friend or a family member who's familiar, but it could also be somebody.

like a groundskeeper, or someone who's just spent a fair amount of time on the property and knew immediately there's a back door that they should get to. And frankly, that would be the, that would make some sense because who that's breaking into a home like this and gets in through the front door after all this stuff or watching on camera, then says, gee, maybe I should go disarm the Ness camera in the back door. No one's even thinking about the back door. Unless there's something we don't know. again, we think it's one person now. And we, you know, I surmised earlier, there could have been someone in a car. Obviously, we don't see the car out front. And we don't know if anyone would be in there or not. There has to be a car, I would think, for this person to make his egress, not just, of course, from the house, but from the street and from the whole neighborhood. So why the back door would be involved here? Was there some sort of a tentative walk around there to check it out at some point? And he decided out of the two doors, which one is the one? easier to, to break into, to break down. That's unknown and will have to be determined, of course, later. Is it determination which way the person came in as opposed to which way the person left?

I don't know that either. And hopefully the investigators do know. But more camera information, of course, will tell us about all of that. There's a couple of accounts on X that that have tried to make the contrast higher on the photos and even bring out some color. We grab just one of them. This is from somebody who goes by Sophie on X. And you can see a little bit more clearly the gloves look black, 100%. They don't look brown. And leather.

And definitely leather. To me, the jacket, I don't know, looks gray with lighter pants. I can't really tell. There's definitely what? What's that, Steve? There's a close-up of the face. I mean, he's got pretty wide eye. I mean, it's weird. He actually looks like he's wearing eyeliner to me in a way. He's got like, do you see what I mean? Like underneath his eyes? I thought it was like swimming goggles almost. It looked like when I first saw it on my phone that little first one. Yeah. Yeah. And it looks like

there's something in his mouth. I can't tell what it is. Maybe that's a camera. I'm sorry, light, yes. It's, yeah, the light. But it's a slim. It's almost. like a, it's a slim horizontal thing. I would have expected a round, I don't know how flashlights come that could go into your mouth, but it does appear to be like a long, flat, like rectangular thing in his mouth. And the eyes look big, round, and like they have eyeliner, which typically means the person has black hair, because trust me, we blondes, we do not look like we have eyeliner on when we are not wearing eyeliner, right? Or he may have put eyeliner. because that's the only part of his face exposed beside the lips.

He may actually have an eye liner on. Well, here's the other question I have for you, though. What about, I'll stand by? What? This is an aside. Brian Engine just reporting, a pizza delivery man just showed up to Nancy Guthrie's house and was able to walk up to the front door

without the deputies out front noticing. Oh, my Lord. Okay, let's go back to eyeliner man. He There's the fact that there's no car right behind him, you guys, is Freaking me out because if you are showing up at this home to abduct a lady an 84 year old Aren't you going to put your car right there? Like not for long period of right there so you can get her in

No, if you're afraid of if you're afraid of a camera being there you'd at least you know you have to show yourself at some point the mask, the jacket, all that stuff, you know, hidden hair gloves. But you don't want to have. your car obvious to the camera. So that was somehow parked on an angle. Yes, it would make his job more difficult to carry, however he did it, Mrs. Guthrie out the door to the car itself. But he looks like he's big enough, hefty enough, not lanky, as we were saying earlier,

that he could probably carry the 150-pound woman to the car. And he would ideally like to have it closer, but from a tactical perspective or a counter-phornsic perspective. He wanted out of the site of that camera. So that would make more sense there. So this guy, yeah, we got to give him credit, again, air quotes, where it's due. He is somewhat forensically sophisticated with gloves, with hat. Moraine's right, there could be touched, when you put the gloves on leather gloves, it could be touched DNA on top of that, which then could be left in some other part of the house too. And that could be the break they're looking for. And a bunch of people get in their mouth swab, I understand, pool people in the last 24 hours or so. And that could be a

result of, again, this video that's come out now. And they may have something off the house. Well, a whole bunch of people are going to get ruled out quickly. You know, if you've got more Asian eye, this is not an Asian man. I think we can say that. It's not a super tall man. We can say that. It's not a super thin man. We can say that it's not a super slim man. But it's not a hugely obese man either as a medium build. Before we move on from the- They have very round eyes. before we move on from how slim he is, he could have something tucked under his jacket in the front

to make him look fatter or to make it look like he has a beer belly. We thought that about the Brown person, but that was real, eventually. He was fat. Oh, I knew he was, by the way, he walked with those fallen arches on the, you know, you could tell he was.

The Brown shooter were talking about. Brown shooter, you're right. Oh, Brown University. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hold on a second. This is, okay. Well, who is this person? My team is sending me things that are helpful,

but I've got to figure out who this is. It's an investigative journalist at Town Hall who's estimating he's between 510 and 511. We really, we don't know. But he's actually checking, he's looking out, he's looking at the bricks. This is actually a thoughtful analysis because he's looking at the bricks that are there and coming up with an estimate based on the bricks and how they typically, how big they typically are, how many inches they typically are. to put him at about 510 and 511.

I mean, my own armchair analysis suggested he was about six feet, too. I can see that. Let's see. We don't, you know. Can I mention something about the leather gloves? Yeah. So when you're taking your... Oh, go ahead.

Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. No, go ahead. When you're taken off your leather gloves, you take them off sometimes finger by finger, right? So you get your right hand off. Sometimes you just grab the whole... like this whole part and pull.

Other times you grab off finger to finger. Those, if there are fingerprints on the tips of those gloves and he touched things within the house, he could have transferred a fingerprint onto a hard surface. It is possible. And, and right, or even just his DNA. Yeah, definitely DNA. He can get rid of the gloves. That doesn't even matter.

It's his DNA that is linked to the touch DNA found in the house. So the clothing material becomes irrelevant. And when you said, why would you... Because of him having touched nothing or slim. Megan, when you said earlier, why would he take the body or whatever? I think obviously money was the motive. This is not an instance where, you know, we were speculating earlier on in this extravaganza we've been involved in, that maybe something went horribly wrong when there

was an argument or something along those lines. That doesn't appear to be what happened now. It seems now this was a kidnapped. or just a straight up murder where they remove the body. But remember you talked earlier when at the top of the hour where you were saying that, you know, if a gardener's fingerprints or DNA are in the house, that's one thing if he's in the kitchen or the restroom or something like that. But if it's on her bedding or on her nightstand, you know, that's a totally different deal.

That may be why the body was removed if they went there just to kill her. but I, it's still looking more and more like a kidnapping at this point. And somehow, I mean. But that somehow took over by, taken over by someone, you know, starting with these emails and this Bitcoin thing down the line. Can we say that, Jim? Let's talk about that just for one minute. Now that we know for sure, there, someone was there.

I mean, we knew because the Ness cameras were destroyed that somebody got her. But now it's just no denying. It's literally right there on tape. should we spend another minute on just one minute before we say goodbye to the ransom notes on whether there's a possibility they were real? I mean, maybe they were real. They were real and they've killed her now because they didn't get their payment, and now that's it.

Megan, I would argue if they were real and connected to this abductor, or quite frankly, not connected to this abductor that we're seeing the video images up, they would have shown proof of life. We discussed this at length yesterday, and I think Friday before we signed off. This is the, if not unwritten, it's the written rule of kidnapping. Everyone realizes you've got to show this proof of life.

And now we don't know what the Guthrie family did. They made the payment or not last night, six million or more or less. So we don't know. We don't think so because TMZ has the Bitcoin account numbers, and it's reporting today that there's no money in there. no one has made a deposit in there. But, Megan, if you listen to the FBI's statement that they put out, they said,

we know of no other communication between the kidnapper and the Guthrie family. Jim can speak to this extensively, I'm sure. There are a lot of times where they'll find a side road into the family and set up a different account and whatever, right, Jim? Oh, yeah, that happens all the time. Yeah, I mean, in these types of deal, not for-profit kidnappings as we've seen. here, but where there's other hidden accounts that people, no one else allegedly knows about, and money could be deposited there. But yeah, there's just so many, this does change somewhat.

We knew she was abducted, and I always was skeptical, whether it was for, that it was for profit, again, revenge or something else. If it's for revenge, something against the family, maybe they just didn't want the family seeing the body in the house. And, They wanted, you know, to save the family from that. It almost sounds like that, you know, there'd be some other set of rules put in there for them. This is so unusual on so many different levels and unprecedented that we're all learning here along the way, quite frankly. And the investigators know more than we do. And these videos add a lot to what we did to have.

But I think, Maureen, and you and I talk, you know, about this. And Megan, we talked on the air. It doesn't surprise me that this is the kind of person that came to the door. We didn't rule out. Someone knows a young girl. Hey, my car broke down. Can I use your phone? We didn't rule that out, but it's more likely going to be something like what we see here, secretive in the middle of the night, well-prepared, mission-oriented.

I use that term a lot to get in the door, which they eventually did. Why 41 minutes in the door? That is still unclear in the house, I should say. But that will come out at some point probably. And then somehow this woman is carried out to a car parked at least a little bit down the driveway. out of the range of the camera. Then they had to decide what they're going to do. On that front, a helpful Twitter user who goes by Chilinois has slowed down the video

where he approaches, and you can see that he is coming in from the left. We're going to show it. He's coming in from the side of the property right there. You can't quite see it in the video we're showing, but he's coming in from the left, around the bend of the left there, which would be considered. with maybe he does have a car. That's where the driveway is. Yeah, not to park it right in front where the Ness camera could get him.

I mean, clearly you guys, you tell me, but clearly he had cased, he had cased the joint prior, right? No doubt. No doubt. He knew there was a Ness camera. He knew where to park and where not to park. He knew where the vegetation was. He seems pretty calm. He's not like panicking, running around, right?

He seems exceptionally. this joint. Imagine. How could that be? He's been there before. He's been there before or someone he knows has been there before and gave him a very distinctive and specific description of the place. I'm convinced of that. But imagine the mindset of getting, breaking into a house, destroying cameras.

I mean, when you're prepping yourself for this act and you're walking up to the door, you pull out your, you've got your gun right there for an 84-year-old woman. you even need a gun unless you're just trying to scare her into opening some safe, open some documents, something along that line, but nothing was missing. And then you're trying to prepare yourself for harming her, which it shows this offender, whoever he was, had a proclivity and a predisposition toward hurting people because she was bleeding on her way out. So there's just no doubt about that. You know, what type of offender can do this type of thing? What type of person, Jim? Well, I would argue a psychopath and on the scale of psychopathy somewhere.

And, you know, narcissistic has no feelings of empathy, doesn't care about other people. And he just says, you know, this is a mission I'm on. We don't know the purpose of the mission yet, the motivation that is. But perhaps, you know, profit oriented to some degree. Just get rid of the body. Don't worry about the kidnapping part. And these other people kick in with the alleged kidnapping with the Bitcoin. So it's so far, I mystery wrapped up in a riddle, but maybe the Enigma part is left now that we see these videos.

And this is going to generate a lot of activity on the part of this offender as well as people that possibly know him. Again, Tucson, local to Tucson, did he drive all day long to get there, then left the scene, these are factors that we're going to have to determine. They say, you don't, you know, you don't want to poop where you eat. I'll be polite here. So I can't imagine this guy being a next door neighbor or even around the block from around the block. But they're going to keep all angles open and all avenues open to find out who this person is and not row out geography as being a factor. But the more you're traveling, I'll just leave it with this part. The more you're traveling with a Mrs. Guthrie had to be disabled to some degree.

We know she would bleed. Yes. Did he wrap her and duct tape to keep her quiet? The farther you're driving with someone in your. car in the in the trunk in a bag whatever it is the more you are opening yourself uh for for risk for arrest and and you're also carrying a weapon i'm not sure exactly the carry uh uh laws in an arizona uh but you know if that happens to be seen and you're dressed and what's that what's that ski cap doing here it's a little chilly tonight in uh in tucson but really you need that thing and uh so this

guy couldn't have gone too far and i've said from day one megan you know, the immediate property or properties around there, that may have been the ultimate goal of this person, just dispose of Mrs. Scott's three there. And I won't get any more graphic than that. Okay. Let me, let me show you guys something. This could just be a function of the nest camera not being great. It's not exactly like you're sitting there with a Nikon. But this was from the second batch of pictures cash released. And I don't know if you can see it very well, but it's him just getting there. and coming through, or I shouldn't say just getting there, I don't know, but he's at the arch. He's not all the way onto the patio in this shot. And for some reason, there are no eye holes, there's no mouth hole, there's no gun, there's no backpack, there's nothing. That's just sort of odd. Well, the backpack, the only reason you see the backpack when we get closer is the reflection

or the refraction of the light onto those illuminating strips that we talked about earlier. The straps. Yeah. But they're pretty pronounced. The straps are pretty darn pronounced. I mean, they're tough to miss. Yeah, it's the fixulation. Even in that one shot from the one shot.

No, something's going on here because the picture I just showed you from Chilinoy, the gal who slowed down the entry, and I said he was coming from the back, like left, around the left bend. there you can see the backpack has such reflective tape on it, on it, the straps, horizontal reflective tape that they look like lights. I mean, I'm not totally convinced they're not lights, to be honest with you, but they're extremely reflective or their lights on the front of the backpack. And you can see on Chilanoi's little freeze frame of the video, the black stripe down the middle and the double white stripe on either side of it. And you can see the weapon wagging from his belt, and you can see the eye holes in the mask. So it is odd. It's actually

kind of eerie. It's creepy. I don't even know what this picture is from Cash Patel, but is it possible he's releasing, and maybe we will get a press conference at some point, is it possible he's releasing casing photos, right? Like, it is possible this guy did show up with maybe the mask turned around, so you could not. see his face at all and he didn't yet have his gun and he wasn't wearing his backpack to get a look at what he was about to walk into to get a look at the Nescam. I mean, this is possibly him doing a little recon work. Thoughts? If we can go back to that picture, it's a little confusing on the, so away from his body, upper left. I'm not sure exactly where the street or the road comes in,

but boy, from the configuration here, it almost looks like the two headlights of a car with a little part of the taillight behind it. And I'm not saying that's his car with the lights on, but for the car, I've been driving by, but there are other pictures I see brighter lights back there too. That could be from a house.

So I would want to see that, of course, blown up. It doesn't mean that car is involved in anything, just very coincidental a car having to go by. But this also could have been, as you just said, Megan, some kind of a casing. if these aren't timestamp, these particular pictures of some other time that this person came to the house, a dry run, so to speak, how close he could get. But I just can't tell the backpacks on or not in different configuration of the mask, whatever.

But to come in, that time and night would come twice would really increase your risk level. And especially if they think they're captured on this video. But then you come back a whole other night, of course, it could have just been an hour before. and then that's what the guy then geared up afterwards back to the car, put all the gear on the gun, then came to the house

said, all right, it's go time. Or could that have been afterwards? I mean... Yeah, could that... Yeah, go ahead. Two thoughts. First, I can't tell where this person is

in that image where you can't see the straps. I can't tell if he's within the archway or outside on the walkway. If he is outside on the walkway when you can see the lights, that was February 1st.

It was one of the biggest full moons of the year. And it was like daylight out almost that night. Number two, well, now I forgot the second. Could he have been with somebody else? Could it have been someone else? Or do, I don't know, like, I don't know, whether it was him or somebody else possibly getting on here. Because that picture doesn't have flashlight in the mouth.

It doesn't have flashlights or reflective tags up here on the top backpack. It doesn't have a backpack at all. It doesn't have a weapon. It's like, I don't know what that is. And frankly, we're not going to be able to figure it out because cats. hasn't given us, here is what this is, here is what that is, here is what the, he's just trying to help us identify, he's trying to get us to help him identify this dude. And what about the backpack? Because I have to say, it is pretty darn distinctive. It's not your run-of-the-mill backpack.

So back to the whole purpose of releasing this stuff, I mean, there is, it's possible that somebody's sitting there with a husband or a brother or a cousin or, you know, whatever, who's going to got this backpack in the corner, they don't always throw everything away, right? I mean, Maureen, you've investigated so many of these crimes, like the drug deals, whatever. They don't always just dump it all in the dumpster. Sometimes they'll keep, it looks like an expensive backpack, for example. Oh, yeah. If they're cheap skates, trust me, people getting popped because their cheap skates is a real thing.

And that, you're right, that backpack is distinctive because the straps are a contrasting color, it appears, to the actual backpack, which isn't, you know, unless. the straps, they seem very thin at the bottom and a contrasting color. But it's hard to tell color in a black and white photo in the middle of the night, you know? Megan? People online are debating whether this was not a flashlight in the mouth, but like a grill, like a gold tooth. I was thinking that was the first thing when you said that the teeth flashed, I thought of gold teeth. No, but if you look at the one image, though, the light beam goes down on the pavement in front of, I don't think that's the one. Yes, that's right. There it is. You can see it light up?

wouldn't do that. No. And Megan, real quick, can I go back? Here, listen to this. Yeah, you go, Jim. Just real quick, our discussion of yesterday of when President Trump was on Air Force One making an announcement that there may be a solution, I believe we determined that was Friday. I think we can timestamp ourselves. That's when he was told we have video of this guy. And the FBI has worked with this whole time, which is fine. No obligation on Friday to release it to the public. But I think that's probably what he was talking about. And he was careful not to stop sec, but he said solution. So just it's important for this discussion that to know that the FBI, we can say Thursday night, Friday, that's when they got these

videos out of this camera. Cash told President Trump, and that's when he said something when Air Force won. Also perhaps to, you know, and the suspect could have in fact made some moves then as we discussed after the fact. So, but that's probably how long they've had these videos to try to do everything they could. It does make you wonder why they went back to the sister's home on Saturday night for three hours, taking pictures in the dark. Like it does, like, why would you go back there? Why are taking pictures in the dark for three hours? You could have gone during the day. The media is there day and night, so you're not avoiding them. What are you doing? I mean, they did it with consent. The family pointed that out. They gave their consent for it.

Which is a problem to me. I would, I'm not comfortable with a consent warrant just because it's so easy to challenge anything you find. It's so much better to have a judicial warrant. But I understand exactly. Maybe that's a point in his figure, Maureen, in his favor. Maybe that's a point in his favor, that like the cops, they're not worried about a warrant because it's not that kind of search. Moran, you want to finish your statement? I was just going to say that, you know, when you're doing a search in the dark, you're usually using luminal or something. And you, it is dark. And you do have to photograph it while it's luminescing. You know, that's, you have put up scales and you take your photographs and that's that's your evidence that you take out of there.

It's actually just photographs. However, you usually have a tripod so that you can make sure that it's perfectly still because you need to see what the blood pattern look like, directionality of the blood stains, et cetera. So I didn't see anyone going with the tripod, but I guess somebody may have secreted it. I don't know. Maybe they don't use a tripod there. I'm not really sure. So it's still a mystery. Would they have been in like hazmat suits or anything like that, Maureen, if they were doing luminal? Would they have looked different? Not always.

It didn't really look like a CSI team to me at all. And carrying in such a small amount of gear made me question that. But something you could easily do without much gear at all would be oblique lighting if you're looking for just that vegetation or something that they, something else that we know nothing about that they have information on. but as far as looking for blood pattern and blood blood you'd think they'd have more gear but I could I guess I could be wrong. I mean, just the fact that they didn't turn on the lights is just so interesting. Well, looking for the blood like that with the luminescent, you're going to, it's going to be in the dark.

It's got to be in the dark. I'm going to go to you one second, Jim, but this is in from NBC. The Guthrie family was notified about the images shared by the FBI, but there is nothing the family or law enforcement or so far anyone. recognizes in terms of who this person might be. Because there was no recognition, the FBI chose to post the images and videos publicly in the hopes that someone may recognize this individual or the clothing or the items that are seen, which could lead to a break in the case. That's interesting. So they had already shown it to the family.

Makes sense. And they did not recognize anything about them. I mean, which is just so, that's even more eerie. I just can't get over the fact of like, I mean, it's truly, I don't know what every guy's worst nightmare is, but it's every woman's worst nightmare to have that guy at the foot of her bed with a weapon. Like, I think we've all had that fear. So we've gone to sleep, especially with the husband's away or, you know, your parents are away when you're a young, you know, co-ed in college and you're home for a visit. It's just that's what the nightmare is. And the nightmare showed up to Nancy Guthrie's home, this vulnerable 84-year-old woman who's, you know, her husband wasn't there to protect her. He had died 40 years earlier.

She was a widow. She had to raise these three kids on her own. Her daughter goes on to become this famous, successful anchor. She's done it. She's got three kids launched to seem happy. And the son's a fighter pilot. The other daughter's a poet and seems, I guess, happily married. And this is how it's going to end.

You know, this is going to be the final chapter of your life, this fucking derelict madman in your bedroom with a, gun and a backpack telling you to get up who's apparently ready to beat you into submission because there's only one way Nancy Guthrie began to bleed. Megan, you have no idea. It's just so dark and it's so infuriating. You have no idea how people in law enforcement just dream in response to that nightmare. Dream that we just didn't happen to be standing right there where we could just, you know,

defend her. Yes. You're being polite when you say defend her. I bet. You got that gun for a reason. A couple of things here. Megan, it's interesting that it's just finally showing some more videos. The mask reminds me of the Zodiac Killer's Mask.

No, this is not the Zodiac Killer's doing this, but someone who may have emulated that type of mask. Of course, they've been used before and other types of crimes, but, you know, there's other versions of that. It's not really even your classic ski mask the way it's set up. It's on puts a mask specifically for committing violent crimes of some sort. The other thing is, and you mentioned about Annie's search the other night, could that have been a misdirection on the part of the FBI. As a profiler, I would work with our agents and other law

enforcement all the time. When you have a suspect or multiple suspects and you want them to think one thing that maybe they're in the clear, so then you go and do some other search, you do something very obvious. And I won't say you have to include the Guthrie family in on this, but just say, hey, for our purposes, we want to come here one more time. They may have already showed them the photographs at this point in time. They said nothing here. So it's a long shot, but I'll tell you, if I was a profiter working this case with them, and I said, there's someone out there that may be destroying evidence, let's show him. We're still looking in some other directions. Let's show them that we're still considering this, you know, this extortion amount from wherever it's coming

from and make him a little bit more relaxed. And hopefully it helps Mrs. Guthrie if she's still alive, too. Just throwing that out there as a possibility. What about the possibility of murder for hire? You know, is that possible? Like, this guy, casual, doesn't seem particularly worked up, but the fact that he's about to, at a minimum, scare the hell out of a nice old lady. He knows what he has to do.

He's got his backpack to get her out of the house. I mean, that, you know, you guys were saying, like, the kidnass for a ransom, they don't really happen. They happen in Mexico, but they don't really happen here. Does murder for hire of an 84-year-old happen here? If that's the case, it's an elimination murder, someone that's in the way of something you want or something that you feel entitled to.

And who benefits from that? Yes. So we have to go back to that. And that would probably be someone close. Okay, but let me ask you that. Okay. Now, that's a good point. And I began the show talking about some of this, Jim.

My questions were you'd want to know if she had a life insurance policy and who gets paid what from it. You'd want to know if she has a will and who gets paid what from it. I don't know how much money Nancy Guthrie has, frankly, her house is worth a million dollars. You'd want to know who gets the house when she dies. I imagine her mortgage is paid just because she's been in it since 1992, I think they said, and I'm sure it wasn't a million dollars when she bought it. You know, that's what it's worth today. But, you know, a few 84-year-olds born in that generation, keep a mortgage if they don't absolutely have to. But in any event, you'd ask who she was a burden to, right? Like, how much did Annie and Tomaso have to do to help

the mother-in-law? That would obviously be a potential motive as you're looking at everybody. But they know all this by now. Like the police know who stood to benefit financially, if anybody, what the life insurance policy was, you know, who were the beneficiaries of that. They almost almost certainly have also looked at the phone records by now, right? Now we're 10 days later. Don't you think they've gotten the phone records back from the family members who live down the road and anybody else who they might know is in the sphere, like the people who come into the house every day, they probably checked all that, maybe the car records. They probably know if any of those people has money problems too. Absolutely. Who's in debt, right? Like don't you think 10 days in,

they'd know a lot of that stuff, Maureen? Exactly. And to your point, when you're looking at who gains or who's going to win in a situation like this. The inverse of that is who's in a state of desperation that would really need the money, you know, and that could be anyone that gambles a lot or, you know, has huge debt because of their only fans' obsession or who knows what. People, people are into all kinds of crazy stuff. Maybe someone bets on football and loses big, thousands and thousands of dollars and they just can't pay it. I mean, even if you, if you're not in that inner circle, but you're on the second circle, or, you know, you might, when you need money fast, your mind goes to strange places.

Well, and the other thing is, they will have seen, Jim, you mentioned this earlier this week, they will have seen, again, I'm, I'm like ruling people out, like the fan, not, we can't rule anybody else because we don't know anything, but like with the immediate family, for example, you are saying they're going to know what that person searched for on their phone. You know, like, how to get rid of a body, that kind of thing. Like the FBI by this point knows that. You think you may be able to delete a phone, but you may not. Here's Chad Ayers, by the way.

Chad's joining us. He's former SWAT leader in Greenville, South Carolina, Chad. Thank you for coming back on. I'm going to get to you in one second, but just wanted to say hi. They're going to know all that. And so clearly, I think can't we deduce Jim that as far as like immediate family, family, they've probably, can we deduce that they've ruled them out? Because they've probably seen the phones. They've probably seen the search history. They've probably seen the financial

incentives, if any. And they are not making arrests. They're looking at all of us saying, who the hell is this in the mask? I'll tell you, I learned as a rookie police officer, certainly detective in Ben Salem Township, working a few homicide cases, free internet, free cell phone. you learn so much about a victim and his or her extended family in doing your investigations. You can still get phone records and all back then, of course, most all landline. But there is so much to learn and you have to sit down with them and say, tell me the truth, sir, were you having an affair with anyone? Or Mrs. So-and-so, were you having a fair?

I'm not putting this on when Nancy Guthrie. But there may have been some things in the closet of the Guthrie family. They didn't necessarily like talking about, but they had to bring up. And Maureen threw them all out there, you know, gambling, only fans, porn, you know, whatever it may be, where it could have something, you know, a lot less, you know, obvious than that. But they're going to have to say, please tell us the truth. To the investigators say, please tell us the truth. We're not out to harass you for this stuff, but we have to build a limit who are the suspects in this case.

So you do learn an awful lot about someone when you get, you know, when you're privy to their, all their phone records, financial records. And of course, their admissions because I'm not supposed to lie to the FBI because that's a charge right there that you could be arrested for. So they know everything, Megan, to summarize here about this family, I would think at this point and no one's had handcuffs put on them yet, that's a clue that at this time at least it's outside of the direct family. Then who knows, you know, the third level, fourth level, friends of friends where that part comes in. But no handcuffs yet. They're not prime suspects at this point. Megan, quickly before we move on. Right now.

Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Maury. A lot of times when these people are doing their searches, everyone knows now that your phone has all this information. They're going to local libraries. They're using other people's devices. Like, someone may have, you don't know whose devices they're using essentially is what I'm going to say. I'm not going to say much more than that. Yeah, I was just listening to a Dateline, which is a. you know, pastime, NBC, of course, where they were talking about, it was a guy who had his wife killed, and his alibi was he was at a poker game the night that she was attacked, and they checked

his phone to see if he had called anybody, and he hadn't. But then, as the noose tightened around the husband, one of the people who was at the poker game, who was hosting the poker game, remembered the wife of one of the guys said, he asked me if he could borrow my phone. And they looked at her history and it was clean. He hadn't called anybody, which they found suspicious. That didn't exonerate him. To the contrary, they knew he had borrowed her phone, and now they knew he had cleared her history. And you may be able to delete it from the, from like the phone, the actual phone, but you can't delete it from the phone record. And they, this guy was clever enough to use somebody else's phone to do his dirty work. So yeah, you're right. Some people find an end around. Jim, I know you've got to go, Fitz, we'll see you again.

I'm sure very soon. Thank you for coming on so quickly. Chad, we haven't heard your take on the stunning tapes and pictures that Cash Patel just released your thoughts. Yeah, Megan, here I was doing a webinar for my company and my phone's blowing up and I slid off for a second and looked. I said, oh my God. Things that I would like to see, and I'm sure, and I know the Bureau is already doing with their unit is obviously enhancing some of these photos. That holster that he has on, with that handgun at the front. That's a very unique looking holster, as well as the backpack.

So if they can start as they go and start enhancing some of these images, maybe it's someone, because now, obviously, gun stores around there, hey, listen, we sell this type of holster. We sell this type of backpack. Plenty of people have been caught.

You mentioned Dateline. How many times do they go back and pull surveillance footage from an Ace Hardware, Home Depot, where the guy was buying bags of lime, a shovel and rope. So again, I think that it is quite alarming. I know pictures, several questions have come up about the flowers or the weeds that he pulled.

Part of me he wonders if he was trying just to cover up the camera so there was not a disconnect. That's what we think, too. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, and then I agree. I think that he probably put a flashlight in his mouth to look at that. And I apologize if this is some of the stuff y'all have already discussed. No, it's fine. But obviously, you know, looking at the sneakers, enhance those sneakers.

Listen, somebody knows this person. Somebody knows who they are. And whether or not they say, oh, my God, shit, that's Uncle Bill. He wore that backpack, you know, when we went hiking a few weeks ago or whatever. And the jacket, all these things are going to be clues. And the Bureau, and there's so many resources out here now, Megan, that they can find out the manufacturer. Who in that, who in that area carries this brand of jacket? Who sells this brand of backpack?

And again, same thing with looking at cell phone data and search history. You know, did anyone in the family buy a backpack recently, anything like that? But again, it's almost just enough just to like frustrate us even more. Yeah. But thank God we have these images. So it's all I can think is the most important thing that happened in Nancy Guthrie's life prior to what happened last Sunday. was the moment we read her comment in 2021 online saying, I really want to buy a nest or a ring camera to help me watch for wildlife.

Can anybody recommend one? Thank God she did. Thank God she did that. Because honestly, this is the best thing. This may be just about the only thing we have to go on now. It's the first promising lead, at least that we know of. And it's they've got him red-handed. I mean, they have got the guy red-handed.

And don't you feel, I mean, Chad, what do you think? I feel like now it's only a matter of time until they catch him. The FBI is so good that this case has gotten so much exposure. Savannah's notoriety as a public figure is a blessing right now, at least because everybody's interested in this case. The picture is going to be everywhere. And you're right. If it's a wife, for sure the wife is going to know the build, the eyes, the mustache, the jacket, the sneakers. and the gate, and the gun. And if you go out, and the backpack, and, yeah, and the gun. And, Marie, does it look like, it almost looks like a revolver to me? No, I think it's a, I think it's a semi-automatic, and it's in one of those, that it's in one of those soft side.

Oh, I see where it is now. But it's on the outside of his pants with that, I don't know what that black strap is, but my husband has that same holster, and it's, it's a longer barreled weapon than like a compact. Okay, because I was going to say, what, it's kind of, an amateur move to use a semi-automatic, you know, because you risk for getting to pick up a shell casing if there was some type of firearm use. I would assume that you, if you are a professional, you would use a revolver, so there's no shells being dropped or anything like that. Oh. Oh, I just learned something about how to commit crime that I didn't know before.

That's a good point. Hopefully we don't teach anybody else, Megan. Yeah, I don't. Well, I think she lived in such an isolated area that the person, I don't know that anybody would have heard a gunshot had one gun off. And before you got here, Chad, we speculated about how thick that backpack is and how much was stuffed in there. Could he have possibly put a tarp in there? You know, might he have done the worst while in the house? And maybe the blood was dripping from, you know, a murder victim as he got her out of there. We don't, we don't know. But look, everybody looking at those blood drops has just armchair concluded. It looks like it was not a lot of bleeding and it looked like it may have just dropped straight down.

Like there's not a smear. There doesn't seem to be a projectile on the way the drops are on the ground. So we're assuming some sort of facial wound or something maybe to get her under control as opposed to a body dripping with blood having been shot. But clearly he was ready for the worst. Well, they were able to back in, correct, into this nest. They used an outside party to kind of back in to get these images. are we waiting on additional images from the other camera at the back door that we do know that they have back there as well?

I wanted to get this in. The White House has issued a statement. It reads as follows. The president encourages any American across the country with any knowledge of this suspect to please call the FBI who continue to assist state and local authorities. The prayers of the entire White House are with the Guthrie family. I mean, that's yet another reason why it's only a matter of time. You've got everybody from the FBI director to the president of the United States. I mean, NBC is going to blanket this guy's pictures. And, you know, that's. Their nightly news at least still has a decent size audience. I'm sure their Today Show audience is inflated this week for obvious reasons. But everybody, all the podcasts, like, this is not your average case. I can't remember a case with this much notoriety in recent history where we were all working together to find a perp. This guy's got a noose around his neck, Maureen. It's just a matter of time before we tighten it. I love it.

And he's backed into a corner. And he's stressed beyond belief. And he's freaking the hell out. And good. I'm glad. I hope he suffers. Same. Don't you think, Chad, like this guy right now, there is this man. This man exists. This man has committed a terrible crime, the exact nature of it we have yet to determine. But this guy knows

this is happening just as the three of us do. And somewhere he's having a holy effing s moment thinking, what do I do now? I bet he's really regret having that crusty ass mustache and thing under his lip that was shown because that's going to be a tall-tail sign to give him away. not too many people I know have those types of mustaches and you know someone's going to be looking at sitting at the dinner table tonight looking across being like hmm might be time to call 1 800 FBI could you explain that to me what do you what do you see I can see he's got facial hair but what exactly are you referring to so there's another image where you see kind of I don't even know what it's what's it called the little small mustache kind of or the little it's not exactly a goatee right yes what is a patch what do you call it Steve some sort of a patch. I don't want to use the term that was using a soul patch. That's what we call it? Okay, my team is a lot hippier than we are.

Soul patch, S-O-U-L. Right. So, I mean. We'll try to get the picture up while you're talking. But you can see it. You can see that there's hair like that little round circle for the mouth and the ski mask does reveal hair above and below. Yeah. I basically had to take the video and I had to pause it.

The video about, if you pause it about the two-second mark and zoom in, you can see it. Yep, right there. Oh, this one? Yeah. Kind of looks like more of the little patch. That's a good catch. Yeah, yeah, which means he has facial hair above and below. But I will say, not to bring it back to the brother-in-law, but he's got a beard and a mustache.

And if you have just a beard, it can go all the way up there. Like, I don't know. We're only seeing a patch, but it doesn't mean it's, it is only a patch. Like, it could be full facial hair to the left and the right. That, because the mouth is just a circle, just cutting out just like you just see the bottom of the circle. What could be there again? I'm not blaming the brother-in-law. I'm just saying, he's been mentioned so many times. We're obviously looking at his facial hair. Right. So now what? Like, if I think back with Tyler Robinson, who's accused of killing Charlie Kirk, it didn't take long. He felt the heat. He saw that picture everywhere. Now, in his case, they also had his gun, which was very distinctive. But he panicked. And he confessed. His parents saw the sneakers. You mentioned the sneakers. They recognized those. They recognized he had the hat. His build. Clearly, you know your child's build. And this guy may have a mother out there who recognizes his build, too, even if he's not married. And they contacted him to say, the dad said, send us a picture of. of your gun because the dad was really suspicious. And he wound up confessing to his, to his, his, family. And then they brought in a family friend who brought him into the cops. So how do you see this going, Chad? Probably about four different ways, I would say. I think Marine would agree. You're either going to have this thing turn into a cold case, worst case scenario, we don't

want to happen. Two, he comes forward and says, the gig's up. Maybe I'll get a lesser sense. sentence, depending on what he's done with Nancy, whether she's alive or deceased. You know, I am getting charged, but maybe I won't see the death penalty if I come in and confess. Someone's going to recognize him and call in and report him. Or the last case scenario, well, I guess there's two more in a sense. Well, I guess the last case scenario is he self-terminates himself. Unaligned himself, which I hope doesn't happen.

Yes. No. Don't be a coward. Don't be a coward. We're never going to know. No. Do you want to hear what I hope happens? Then we're never going to know.

Best case scenario? Yeah. He starts acting crazy. Everyone calls the police. Seven people he knows calls the police. Three departments arrive, all with police dogs. They unleash the dogs who rip him to shreds on film and we can all watch it over and over. Yeah.

Yes. Yes, you want to see him suffer, but not without finding Nancy first. I mean, like, there is still a. scenario. You look at Savannah's statement today just immediately, you know, after the pictures came out, we believe she's still alive. Like, we, we are cynical law enforcement and news people who don't have a direct relation to the victim. So I think it's a lot easier for us to be like, the odds are she's no longer alive. You know, we've covered enough of these stories or been involved in solving these cases, that that's where we went. And Savannah, if she weren't so close to it, would probably be

where we are. But she's... She has all cause to keep hope alive. And we are not, we don't know. We could be wrong. Nancy Guthrie could be alive. And this could be the guy who has her. We don't know why. We don't know why there wasn't a ransom.

If, assuming he wasn't connected to the Bitcoin scam, why there wasn't a ransom, why there's been no demands. There's been nothing whatsoever. It hasn't even been like from a psycho. I feel like from a psycho, we would have gotten Savannah Mary me or like I'm going to get somebody else next unless I get Savannah to do the following things. Like the psycho can't really hold it together for 10 days, stay underground, make no demands. You know, I don't, that's just feeling less likely to me.

Murder for hire. That could be good because somebody's going to talk. Murder for hire requires a conspiracy with multiple people and someone could panic right about now, given how the heat just got turned up and talk. What were you saying, Maureen? I was just saying that, is this the type of person that's going to feed and care for an elderly person who's wounded? I mean, those two don't seem to coexist to me.

But I understand her believing in miracles. I would be on my knees storming the heavens, praying for a miracle in a situation like this. And I've prayed a lot for Savannah's mom. Yeah, same. We talked earlier this week with Jim about the kidnapping of the Exxon president. He was president of the company. I actually learned more about that yesterday. It was 1992.

And the guy was like a real regular Joe. He didn't want a guard. He didn't want to live his life under, you know, security threat all the time, having guard drive him and his wife out to dinner. So he said no to that. He drove himself around in a station wagon and was pretty well known. And they, the two kidnappers, one was former law enforcement and his wife. They moved his newspaper down closer to the road that morning because he would come out of his house himself and grab his newspaper and they moved it closer to the bottom of his driveway

so that they could get him more easily. And they grabbed him one morning. that he did fight and they shot him in the arm. And they got him into their getaway vehicle and they put him in a box like a, it sounded like a casket almost, like a small box, shot, injured, and then put the box in storage. And I guess it got to like 120 degrees. It was a very hot time of year. And he died within four days. But they didn't tell the family that.

They kept the ruse going for some 54 days. and it was an $18 million demand, and Exxon was going to pay it. Like, they wanted their executive back, but they had no trouble with proof of life. And there was a negotiation. Like, there wasn't radio silence like this. They did know that their charge had died, but they were playing the ruse to the end. Here, there's been none of that. You know, none of that.

Like, Clay, it's like radio silence other than the weird Bitcoin thing that offered absolutely no proof of life. And so what's the end game of this, endgame of this person? It keeps leading me back to this is about ending Nancy Guthrie. It's not about getting a ransom payment. I agree. And the way he's just very amateurish, just does not look like a trained professional type of assassin.

I mean, who carries their pistol like that? Seriously. It's just, yeah, I mean, it's just very just kind of thrown together. That's interesting. Wait, Chad, so you're saying that like the way he has that pistol suggests to you, this is an amateur. Oh, I mean, unless he's just so professional, he's just trying to throw everyone off to make it look that way. But no, nobody straps the holster, you know, to them like that. Now, granted, now, if you're carrying concealed, I carry personally concealed.

I carry personally concealed, you know, in my appendix area, but I wouldn't carry an open carry firearm like that. Hook my holster to the front. That's just not a way someone carries. That's not a standard practice to carry a firearm at all. Clearly the guy was not worried about the neighbor seeing him, Maureen, with a ski mask on and his gun visible to all with his gloves in the middle of a Tucson evening. like he he knew that these are acre-lock acre-sized properties and at 2.30 in the morning or

147 the odds were against people seeing him, but it's still pretty risky. I don't think it's that risky. No? It's pitch blackout. They have no street lights. They don't even, they even discourage people from turning their porch lights on because they all want to see the stars. It's pitch black.

There's plenty of room. I do think you'd be, if you, if you, around someone would hear it though I even though you have an acre um because I've you know I've been to a place in Wisconsin a lot I've spent a lot of time there and you can hear when someone's firing a weapon within a couple of you know within an acre or two easily but if you have a fan on in your room while you're sleeping you know you won't hear anything mm-hmm there's been no reports of that whatsoever nothing about a possible possible shooting right or hearing sounds of that. There was, there were reports of increased coyote activity, but it was after the night that

Nancy died. It was not, sorry, she didn't die. Disappeared. It wasn't that night. It was like several nights later. So, I mean, it could potentially be related, but I don't know. If you've ever had coyotes around your house, they, they, they, it sounds God awful when they're mating. It really sounds like some sort of a mass murder is happening outside your door, could wake up the whole neighborhood. Doesn't mean anything's happening to a human. What were you going to say, Chad? But it still takes us back, Megan, to, did he act alone? Where's the vehicle? Did he, was she conscious and just, you know, bleeding? And he walked her through the back of the house, through the front of the house. You know, it's all crazy to me that there are no type of

license plate cameras close eye that we, I know we have that information from a 7-11 or a Circle K gas station, but where was the car? I am a theory. How do you, I'm telling you, like, I consider myself a somewhat of a fit individual, but let's just take an 84-year-old woman, let's just say she was 100 pounds. And one person carrying someone like that that is severely injured or deceased is hard as hell. I don't, it's very hard. Unless, and, and again, we would have a different type of, 150 pounds. I mean, find me someone that's going to comfortably carry. We know, we don't believe she was,

well, I would say pretty definitively by the blood spatter we see on the front porch. That is not a drag blood spatter. Like I said, those are, those are a 90 degrees. She wasn't dead by then. No. When that, when that pacemaker disconnected from the phone, she was alive or they would have told us that. They would know if she had done. guide thanks to the pacemaker. So I really do believe she was taken out of that house alive. What's your, what's your theory, Maureen? Well, my theory on the car is this. When, when we, you've got certain, whenever you're looking for someone or you're, you're trying to figure out what cars were in the area, you're, you're looking at the choke points or the access and egress

routes. And so they looked at all those. They looked, they checked everything. They did. They geofenced the whole area, all that stuff. Well, that means what? It's, there's an absence of something normal here or the absence of normalcy. And what I mean by that is the car probably never made it out onto any of those major roads. Maybe it just took side streets to wherever it was going. Yes. And it parked there for a day or two or they lived nearby. So it was probably a local or somebody very familiar with the local roads. I mean, it could have been a Colberger situation where he'd been casing the joint for a while. He knew the roads to take and which one's not to take.

I mean, if you, I've been watching some of the local coverage, there's local news coverage out there of this case. It just is always interesting to see what the locals have to say. And by the way, they did say that there was no proof of life in the second ransom note. Harvey Levin was on something last night saying maybe there was proof of life in there. There wasn't. The local news outlet that received the second note reported, its sister outlet reported, Arizona family, there is no proof of life whatsoever in the second note,

whatever you, it's not a ransom note. But they had, they showed in the local coverage the number of license plate readers, I guess, and just cameras all over their traffic lights on the main highways there. There's only, I think, two of them. And they're just, they're covered in cameras. There's just zero chance you wouldn't have been seen. They would go between 2.30, 2.28 in the morning and probably 328 in the morning and try to get license plates off of all those cars. They would have done that last Monday, you know, last Sunday potential. Some of those cameras are ticket camera. not, and they only snap a photo when someone is speeding through the intersection. So some of them wouldn't, wouldn't do it. But yes, there are cameras on a number of those, at a number of those

intersections. So if you were clever enough, you were local, then you took side roads and maybe they didn't have, they didn't have any cameras. That's why they're asking for, for example, people who have Teslas to check. I guess your Tesla will turn on and start filming if somebody goes buy it, which is awesome. And that's definitely the car that we're going to get our children now that I know that. So they're asking Tesla owners or anybody who's got a nest cam or a ring cam that might as, because like you can go down the side roads, but the downside of the side roads is now you're looking at nest cams and ring cams and we're back to that Super Bowl ad that can even catch your lost dog. No, why are you shaking your head? Because it's too dark and the houses are

set back. And when it's that pitch black, as it is often in Wisconsin, you can't see that far at all. I mean, and there's foliage in front, and there's all those big cacti in front of these houses with large shrubs. You, and they're raised up slightly from the road. From, you know, they had one of the, one of the, one of the journalists drove by at night

from one, from Nancy's house to Annie's house. And you couldn't see. see anything. Yeah, I think I saw that on CNN. Well, here's a, here's a perfect example of those ring doorbells, guys. And I'm Saturday night, I'm sorry, Friday night into Saturday morning at 2.30 in the morning, my dad's car truck was stolen from his driveway. He calls me, he's come to pick me up, actually Saturday morning to take me to pick up our car from the shop. And he says, my car's gone. And I said, well, was it unlocked? Yeah, I left it unlocked where the keys in it. Yeah, I left the keys in it. I'm like, well, you're a dumbass.

But second of all, he goes, my ring doorbell did not pick up anything. I have a ring doorbell that is that is right there on the side. So basically they have a, you know, a double garage and they got a door that goes in the middle. And there's a doorbell right there right where it was parked. The only thing that picked it up, they also have external cameras that aren't ring, that are hardwired that, you know, you can watch. And so we went upstairs. I rewowed it. And sure enough, at 150 in the morning.

You see two guys approach from the wood line down. They jiggle the handle of my mother's, one of her spare cars that's outside. They can't get it. They go to my dad's truck, jump in. They're gone. Ring did not pick it up, but the other cameras did. So again, the sensitivity on these things are really dependent. Wow.

Here, my team made an aerial for us of Nancy's house, which could help us understand where the car potentially was. I don't know if you guys can see this. For the listening audience, It shows Nancy's looks like a ranch home. You guys have seen it on the news and picture a rectangle with a white roof. And it's got a semicircle drive in front of it coming from the road. And you can see the arched doorway, which is just so ominous to look at it right now, knowing that terrible man walked underneath that archway and right into that front door,

we believe, or at least tried and maybe got in the back door. but you can see there's like a little gravel walkway that takes you to the archway into the home. And then if you were to come out and keep going around the semicircle, you would, you could either complete the semicircle to leave or the semicircle where it begins on the right also goes straight back. And so there's more parking. And that's, I think, the garage. Yeah. Well, I think that's the garage over on the back right. It's not a separate unit, but that's probably the pool house back there. I'm not sure exactly what that separate structure is.

You're right. You're right. Yeah, okay. And so the car could have been, like even in the aerial that I'm showing on the screen, there is a silver, dark gray car over on the right that definitely would not have been caught by a ring camera that's underneath that archway and back. You know, like there's a number of places you can park here where you would not be caught by that ring camera.

Although I will say, I'm not sure about that roof camera, you know, that they pulled off on Friday night. That one, depending on where it was pointed, that could have gotten a car. Well, that was pointed down in the back. That was pointed down into the backyard. It didn't really look, yeah, ripe for that. But yeah, the car easily could have been on this semi-circular driveway, not caught by the ring camera. And therefore, we can't really say, oh, he had to have help. Like, he could have done this by himself. He could have pulled up. He could have parked off to the side. He could have sauntered in from here would be the right, on the camera would be the left. And maybe.

maybe couldn't get in. You know, like, if that's, that's one of the questions we have still sitting here. What happened? We didn't see him actually disconnect the nest camera. We didn't see him succeed in the job he was trying to do, but the video magically stops. So, like, they're not showing us, they're not showing us a picture where he gave up and walked off and then came around the back where they should have more images, shouldn't they? They should have more. If he, if he used the back door, they should have more images of him from back there. Right. Megan, can we ask Chad about the burglar door on the front of the house and how he would approach that or how he could breach that door and how hard it is essentially? Or are we done with that? No, no, let's say we're not done with anything.

It's funny because, yeah, I did. So actually, I was talking to one of our homicide investigators who reached out to me after, you know, seeing me, I think it was Thursday after, you know, Megan posted the show and she said, what's your thoughts on that door? And I said, well, that storm door looks to be pretty solid. We see iron or metal bars on the inside. As a SWAT operator, when we see these, you know, obviously we do our intelligence gathering before. What kind of, our door is barricaded before we make entry, you know, are they fortified items like this? If that storm door is locked, it is very difficult. You're not just busting a panel out and ripping that door off. So in a situation where in a law enforcement situation, hostage type of situation, if we were trying to make, first of all, we would never use that as the primary entry point.

But if we had to, we're going to have to hook some type of, you know, cable to our armored truck and rip that thing off. I mean, it appears from, it is a pretty solid door. But again, not everyone. Maybe she locked the main door, you know, on the inside and the handle, this one is unlocked. Or being that old, maybe she has more, you know, I lock all my doors. I'll be honest, guys, my storm door at the house doesn't stay locked. It's the main door that I lock. But again, that would be, I think that's why we see that disconnect. And then it sounds like, you know, Megan, didn't the sheriff, what he pretty much saying or confirmed that, or didn't someone confirm that the back door was primarily the one there was forced entry on? Ashley reported, Ashley reported that it was open, but the sheriff wouldn't confirm that. And Ashley reported that both of the next.

cameras. Her word was destroyed. The sheriff said disconnected. But either way, you know, we can see the man trying to disarm them or get them off. So they, he would not confirm that about the back door. But it's, it seems like a crazy thing to just pull out of the thin air. You know, like, oh, and by the way, the back door was wide open. And she did report that both net, both nest cameras were gone. And the sheriffs now confirm that. So it seems to me this guy could not get in that front door. Maybe it was too tough. And it seems also he was not able to get those ring cameras off or those nest cameras off, at least at that first sitting. And that he probably walked to the back of the house and opened the door. And he had more success with that nest camera.

Maybe he figured it out in the back and then went back in the front and took those off once he'd learned how to do it from the back. And he definitely, nothing's definite, but very much seems to have brought Nancy out the front door, which would have been much easier now because he's on the inside. It still takes us back, guys, to this. People are like, well, this is a burglary gone bad. 2026, people don't commit these types of burglaries, like in the middle of the night, like home invasions.

It just doesn't happen. There's something more, this is a, I'm still sticking. This was a targeted attack. You know, we've got all the Twitter investigators out here right now are ex-investigators that are commenting on everything, but that still you're never you're not convincing me that this was just some random person trying to break into a house at 2 o'clock in the morning and it went bad he had his gun on people also people who commit burglaries all right burglary home invasion two totally different things we're looking at

robbery on one you know arm robbery carrying a firearm this was some type of targeted attack yeah this wasn't a burglary i agree we talked a bit ago about how a burglary i think he would have a bigger bag. Maybe his backpack was full of other bags that he was going to then open. I doubt it. And there's nothing, the police haven't said that anything was stolen. They don't think it's a burglary. So, and I think generally, burglars try to go to homes that don't have anybody in them, including old ladies. And if they find an old lady, they run. They don't kidnap the old lady. You're not going to take her with you. I mean, you talk about an albatross or, you know, a ball and chain.

Yeah. And there's no value to an 84-year-old woman in any commercial market. You know, of course, I have a dear 84-year-old woman in my own life. I don't mean value net net. She's got a lot of value. But it's not like a baby that you can sell, you know? I mean, a brand-new baby can be considered gold. That's why most of us, when we have them, every single window is locked.

I mean, you know that. When you've got a little baby, like you're extra careful to lock. lock everything in because you know there are some very sick people who would love to steal your baby. Even a child, sadly, has got sick value to very bad men. But an 84-year-old woman doesn't. So there's only one thing that makes sense to me, which is they knew who she was. And they either wanted to extort Savannah or they wanted to end her life. And that why they removed her from the home in order to do that is one of the biggest mysteries of this case. I mean, it could just be, it's cleaner. You know, I want to get her out of the house, and I'm going to take her life in the

same place that I meant to dispose of the body so that she's gone, and we don't have to worry about it. There's no clues left over, and I've worn the gloves in here. I've worn the hat, the mask. No one's going to know it was me, and there's not going to be any DNA on her or elsewhere to point to me. like no bullet, you know, like we were talking about before. Bullets can be traced. They can even have DNA on them potentially. There can be something that's identified to you. Maybe he wasn't some expert at like scraping serial numbers off of anything, you know.

And he's like, it's just cleaner if I get her out and I take care of her someplace else. Now that, we're back to all those motives. Did they know her? Did they hate her? Did they hate Savannah? Life insurance, will, financial, burden, all that stuff. I can't imagine a gardener she shorted on a tip is going through all this. So it's either some sort of a hatred for Savannah or one of the other kids or a hatred for Nancy or an obsession with Savannah potentially or it's they still want they want ransom.

And like somehow the original plan to get it got foiled by crypto currency man last week. You still got to have a big set of nuts on you to be able to take a woman and put her in the car when in the middle of the night at 2 o'clock and the morning, any pro act of law enforcement officer that's out on the streets, you know, that's when I made big cases, you know, two o'clock in the morning when nothing's going on and all of a sudden you see a car, you know, it may piqu my interest. You're like, you're really risking a lot to put a body in a car and to drive off. And again, I know that there's been, Megan, we talked yesterday about grid searches and looking in the area about maybe did they dispose of her somewhere, but like you've got to have a big set on you to put a woman.

in your car and to take off driving. Don't know how far, whether it was two miles down the road or multiple miles. Like every mile you go further, you're increasing your chance of getting caught. Yeah. And with her not wanting to be in the car, a cop comes by, anybody drives. Even a regular person drives by you. She can kick her feet up in the back seat or something. And you're like, whoa, what the hell was that, you know?

And there's blood on her somewhere. That's true. That's true. But it's the desert. You know, I mean, isn't the desert infamous for like, that's where the mob gets rid of dead bodies. That's where the cartel gets rid of dead bodies, you know. It's like, I mean, my knowledge of this is not vast, but I did see Breaking Bad. But the desert seems like a place bad guys go to get rid of evidence of crimes, including human remains. I don't know. Would it really be so hard to find some very deserted area in the desert and dispose of her there? But that's really rough terrain. That's really rough terrain, Megan. I've done tons of grid searches out in the desert with ERT. And it's, it's to every, people get hurt. Everyone cuts their hands.

I mean, it's just, you're just picking something up, and then you realize it's a sharp part of a cactus. And it's, it's just terrible and frightening. The, all the statistics show that if, if there was a body involved, so let's not you talk about Nancy per se, but in other instances where bodies are being disposed of, they're oftentimes, most often, disposed right near the road, like within 10 to 30 feet from the road, because, as Chad was saying earlier, because it's so difficult to move a dead body, unless you put them in a blanket or a tarp and drag them. But even then, you get tired very quickly, right, Chad? I mean, a 150-pound person dragging them, even drag,

I mean, think about that desert terrain and cactus and rocks and all this stuff. Also, think about, and again, I've spent minimal time. I did a lot of training at a location out in New Mexico for explosives. But think about trying to dig a hole on desert soil. Very difficult to do. You're not taking your grandpa's shovel and digging a deep enough grave. And if they're doing grid searches and they've had aerial footage up, there and they're searching, you know, that immediate vicinity around that area, you know,

I don't know what you're going to see, but it would be, it would take hours and hours to dig a deep grave on hard desert soil. The smarter thing would be. And now you're also. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. The smarter thing to do would be to put foliage on top of the body. Make sure whatever clothing she has isn't brightly colored, et cetera, put the dry foliage on top

and let the animals do what they do. that being said that this offender will have cuts on their hand even if they have had those gloves on so they had leather gloves on but trust me i've done i've done this work with gloves and leather gloves uh tactical gloves latex gloves every time i cut my hands the only way you don't is if you have those hardcore heavy duty um gloves designed not to get cuts while dealing with sharp stuff. And I'm, and I think of it the more, and this is a local, this is like, if we're presuming this is a local, you know, with, with local knowledge of the roads and so on. What a hassle. You know, it is easier just if you're going to commit a murder just to leave

the body in the spot, like in the house. Like, why, why take her? Why, is there any reason to take her other than to ask for ransom? No. No, but if he is a local, I mean, I'm going, I'm, I'm, I really am going to start going into, and I don't know, how large of a town. I mean, how big is Tucson? I mean, I'm looking here. It looks like there's several Walmarts, but, you know, the gloves, that backpack, I'm going to start going to every Dick Sporting Good Sports Academy, Walmart. I'm going around with my team right now and walking through there. Do you all sell, you know, this color backpack? Do you all sell black rubber gloves? Yeah, we do. Pull up your inventory. I mean, let's look. Now we're not saying that they went there.

Who knows? Maybe they're dumb enough to either way. whether you went online or somewhere else, still, you could probably, once they, I figure out the brand of this backpack, that's going to help. Because I'm sure Amazon has ways that they can say, hey,

we've sold X amount of these backpacks, and this is where they were shipped to or whatever. There's a lot, you know, in this, there's a lot in these images that gives law enforcement direction to start the next stage of this investigation. Maureen, wouldn't you agree? Lots of leads.

But there, They're black leather gloves, by the way. Oh, they are, okay. If I misspoke. We did take a look at the roof camera while we were talking. My team did. And it does appear that it's back. Is it on the pool house, Deb?

But it's definitely, it looks like it's on the pool house and it's oriented toward the backyard, which could be good. I don't know. I mean, if the backyard at all captures the beach. back door, then there's a chance that they got something off of that. Though, again, it's not one of the pictures that's being produced by the FBI right now. I imagine they're giving us everything they have. Megan, is that a gate in the upper corner? Is that a black gate to the left of the blue door? Deb, can you see? I think it's a walkway, like a breezeway to get it into the

house from what I. I'm just basing, you know, could you, you know, I'm just trying to see how much coverage that camera. I guess if we had backed, you know, it'd be better to see if it was backed down a lot further. But, um, well, at a minimum, there should be the same video of our masked man approaching the nest camera that we have from the front one. Sure. If in fact, he did go around to the back. I mean, like, if Ashley's right, and he dismantled both cameras and there was one in the front and one in the back, and we believe he probably couldn't have gotten through that storm door. and she's reporting there was forced entry, then there should be more video of this guy

from the back nest cam. I mean, hopefully the company's working to retrieve that too. You know, maybe that's still under development. We just don't know. But this guy's, look, we'll end with this. He's in a panic right now. He's out there.

He knows that the clock is ticking now, that they're going to get him. Somebody knows him. What's unfamiliar to us is going to be intimately familiar to probably more than one person. And there may be something about him that's changed recently. Like, did he shave off his mustache and his soul patch or beard in the past day?

Right? Like if right now he shaves, does he have sort of a weird gait? Does he have a backpack that looks like that? Have you ever seen him work by putting his flashlight in his mouth? And does he have a weird one that doesn't, like, stick out the way like a normal tiny handheld flashlight? would. It seems to be some sort of a rectangle that he's got in there, not like your regular handheld tiny little flashlight. Does he have a gun? Is it potentially a Glock that's got the longer barrel? The barrel, thank you, the longer barrel on it. Does he have gloves like this? Is he,

is he in Tucson, Arizona, which is so hot right now, Brian Nentis and he's talking all the time about how they need another smoothie. He's dying of heat. Yes. And here's this guy. I realize in the desert overnight, it gets cold, but he's got what appear to be thick gloves and a fleece jacket on in the long pants. Like somebody is going to know this look. And they may even have seen a face mask, which is a very unusual thing in Tucson, Arizona sitting around their roommate's room or in the Amazon cart. That's probably a recent purchase.

that face mask is probably a recent purchase from a store or an Amazon, all these things. Someone's going to know or the FBI is going to find. I do feel hopeful that it's just a matter of time. And then we'll- Cuts on his hands? Yeah, does he have cuts on his hands from being in the brush? I mean, that's one thing. Everybody who goes into the backyard of Nancy Guthrie, not like her immediate backyard,

but her, the wild right behind her house, how many pricker bushes there are, how it's like treacherous back there. And the Customs and Border Patrol has been walking back there with Brian saying, this is like dangerous. Like if you don't know which plans to avoid, you know, you get all cut up back here. That's one of their skills is like finding people because they're experts on knowing what to stay away from and finding people caught right in the midst of these, you know, nightmare vegetation situations. And our hope would be, let's just say the worst case scenario, unfortunately that Nancy's no longer with us and they discover her body.

obviously, hopefully, if she put up some type of fight that they're able to pull DNA from under her fingernails or somewhere like that, either way, like you said, Megan, that time's not on this guy's hands. Your days are numbered. Yeah. It's just a matter of time before we do a news alert saying he's been caught. I just, I can feel it. Those pictures are too good. They're actually really good for, you know, surveillance cameras that you don't usually get them that good. So that's, hats off to the FBI and the sheriff's office for getting this stuff back from the camera. And you know what? To the nest camera people who appear to have been instrumental in making sure they had what they needed. And now the rest

of us have to do our job and do what Savannah asked us to, you know, keep an eye out, look for the unusual behavior. And no matter how strange it may seem, how uncomfortable you are about calling, I told the audience, I already called. I called the FBI with a tip. I, like, don't, You're not a bother. It's up to them to decide what's relevant and what's not. Exactly. Call because there are experts like you two sitting at the other end of the line eventually to whom what seems like a nothing could actually mean something. Well, it's called the bystander of that.

Maureen, we really put you to work on your first day here on the Megan Kelly show. You are kidding. Thank you so much for being here. My phone's blowing up and I'm like, I'm still on. And they're like, wait, what? No. Chad's been, he's used to this by now. but thank you both so much, and I'm sure we'll be seeing you again very soon. Thank you, my pleasure.

All the best. Wow. And thanks to our listening audience. My God, here we are. Another day. We really, originally today, our plan was to do Guthrie for the first hour, and then we're going to bring on Andrew Claven to do some other stories, second hour, and then, you know what happened. And here we are three and a half hours later. Thank you for listening. Thanks for trusting us with the story, and we'll see you again tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show, no BS, no agenda, and no fear. Thank you.