The Megyn Kelly Show - Dr. Debra Soh, on Gender, Femininity and the Dangers of Anti-Science Woke Culture | Ep. 31

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

Megyn Kelly is joined by Dr. Debra Soh, author of "The End of Gender," to talk about her work and research on the facts about gender, sexuality and identity, the dangers of anti-science woke culture, feminism and femininity, and where we're headed in our society.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly. Today on the program, we've got Debra So. She is a neuroscientist and now journalist who wrote a book called The End of Gender, Debunking the Myths About Sex and Identity in Our Society. And not unlike Abigail Schreier, Debra is trying to take on some of these narratives that we are having pushed on us in the classroom, in the psychiatrist's office, in support groups all over the country that have only one agenda, and that is to affirm, affirm, affirm. If a child walks in and says, I might be trans, this is problematic for

all sorts of reasons. And these two women have been very brave in trying to start a discussion about it to help protect our children. We're going to have one of those discussions in just moments. But first, I want to talk to you about Legacy Box. Legacy Box is a safe and affordable way to digitally preserve all of your home movies and all those photos that are currently trapped on dated formats like VHS or film. How many times have you wanted to take a look at those and you can't get them and you don't have a, you know, VCR and it's like, you're not going to do it. Well, that's where Legacy Box comes in. I mean, what products have you been eyeing with the hopes that they would go on sale

during black Friday or cyber Monday? Did legacy box make your short list? Well, they should have. What about now? Is there anyone on your short list who's difficult to shop for? Yes. With legacy boxes. So you can reclaim all that priceless footage. You haven't been able to see in years. It couldn't be any simpler. What you're ordering right now is their box. You get the box. You can fill it whenever you want, but just get the box in hand. And that's what you use to safely send the moments that you want preserved. Their team creates a digital archive by hand, and then you receive your new copies stored on the cloud, a thumb drive or DVD, along with all the original media that you sent them. So you get your stuff back. And right now they are offering 60%

off, 60% off, sweet. So you can have everything preserved at once for just a fraction of the regular price. Legacy Box is something you can order in minutes and enjoy forever. You will be so glad you did it. This is the best deal of the year. Go to legacybox.com slash MK to take advantage of this limited time offer and get 60% off. Think about that. I'm giving you a second to think about that. 60% people. This exclusive offer will not last long.

So order their kit right now and send it in whenever you're ready. It is a sale to remember. This would be a nice surprise for your husband. You know, it's hard to buy for guys. Go to LegacyBox.com slash MK and save 60% while supplies last. And now, Debra So. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, so you have got some impressive academic credentials. You are a neuroscientist specializing in gender, sex and sexual orientation. So there you were,

you described yourself, I love this as sort of a plain vanilla sex kind of gal, like in your own personal life. But you thought it would be really interesting to study unusual sexual interests and sex in general. And you got, you know, way into it and got a great job at a great lab and were doing your thing. and then saw some stuff in the news that you started to find kind of troubling, kind of inconsistent with what you had learned as a scientist. What was it? Right. So I had noticed that the climate in academia had shifted and this particular issue around gender transitioning in very young children was being reported on in the news in a really scientifically inaccurate way. And so all of the news coverage at that time said that the best way for kids who are gender dysphoric, so kids who say they're born in the wrong body,

that they want to live as the opposite sex, the best way forward for them was an early transition. So to basically live as the opposite sex, to take on a different name, maybe get a haircut or grow their hair long. And the parents who were interviewed said that their children were flourishing. Medical professionals were saying this was the best thing to happen to these kids. But from a scientific perspective, all of the research literature shows that the vast majority of these kids with gender dysphoria, they're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood and not be transgender. So it doesn't make sense for them to transition before puberty because there's a good chance they're going to change their minds.

So I wrote an op-ed about this and I waited about six months to publish it because I knew that there would be backlash to it. And at the time I had planned to stay in academia, I talked to a number of my mentors and colleagues and they said to me, they're very supportive, but they said, you know what's going to happen when this gets published. And I came to the realization that even if I stayed in academia and waited until I had tenure to publish something like that, it wouldn't protect me that I would still lose my job. So I made the decision to publish the op-ed and I work as a journalist now. I began working as a columnist for Playboy shortly thereafter. And now my first book, The End of Gender, is out with Simon & Schuster. But take us back to that moment, because how many

years did it take you of study to get to that point where you were weighing what to do next? Well, the funny thing is, I used to also think that that was the best thing for these kids. I did actually believe that if you have a child who is really unhappy in their birth sex and wants to live as the opposite sex, why wouldn't you allow them to do that? Why wouldn't you also then allow them to go on and take medical interventions like puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and get surgery? I do support transitioning in adults. I always want to emphasize that because research has shown transitioning can help adults. And I also believe that adults have the mental capacity and the emotional maturity to make these kinds of life

altering decisions, but children do not. And it was only when I started reading the research literature and studying sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, that I realized that this narrative was very much incorrect. And I felt it was important to speak about this and write about it because the public for the most part is only being shown one side, especially by left-leaning media outlets. And parents who have a child who is gender dysphoric, they are not being given all of the information that they need to know in order to make a good decision. To the contrary, as you

point out, we'll get into there. They're being shamed if they consider anything other than transition right away and support it. But my point was you, I mean, you're a PhD, right? Takes a long time to get your PhD. You got it, what, at least eight years into it. Yes. My PhD took four and a half years. But prior to that, yes, I did. In total, it was about 10 plus years of schooling. Yeah. So you you went through all of that. You've got your degree, you've got your dream job, you're working as a scientist. And I'm just saying, like, it takes a lot for someone in that position, well-respected with accolades and accomplishments and nothing but blue sky ahead to say, I'm walking away. I'm not doing this anymore. If I can't say what's real, what the science is, then I don't want to do this anymore.

I mean, I know I've heard your other interviews and I know we usually just blow past this point, but it took real courage and it, it must've been deeply important to you. And you're not some far right, you know, forgive me, but like religious person who's like, this is my moral mission. You're a, you're a liberal. You were a radical feminist. You supported feminist ideology. And as you say, you even had different views on transitioning when you went into this. So was it scary to just say, okay, I guess I'll just be a journalist now where I hope I'll be allowed to write the truth. Oh, it was, it was terrifying. When I look back on it, for sure. I feel very, very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had and that people have come out and supported me and that the editors I work with have never told me what I could or couldn't say.

Someone like you has invited me on your show to talk about this issue. But at the time, I mean, when I made that transition, I didn't know anybody in journalism. I had no contacts, which probably sounds really crazy. But I just believed really strongly that this was the message that needed to be heard. And I also felt more strongly that this was the message that needed to be heard. And I also felt more broadly that sex research was not taken seriously as a discipline. And I thought, well, if I become a journalist, that can be part of my goals as well, because my colleagues, they work so hard to be taken seriously in their work and to get funding. And then when their studies come out, in many cases, they are misrepresented by the media. They're seen as salacious. And so that's been another part of my goals as a journalist is to reflect what the science

says about human sexuality more broadly, because I do think that's really important in terms of us being able to understand who we are. Well, I think not a lot of people totally understand that, that our sexual preferences, I mean, there's a a we'll get into this, but there's obviously a big push to understand that gay and lesbian folks are driven by neuroscience, by something that happened in their brains and not just a choice. Although now the messaging on that's getting so confused. But when you're when you're studying sex, sexual preferences, sexual identity, orientation, all of that, you're studying the brain. That's what you're an expert in, the brain. Yes. I was using brain imaging techniques. So this included functional MRI and structural MRI to better understand sexual preferences. My expertise was in paraphilias, which are unusual sexual preferences, sexual orientation, which I have to emphasize because the word preferences is misused nowadays. When I say preferences, sexual orientation, which I have to emphasize because the word preferences is misused nowadays. When I say preferences, I mean sexual preferences that cannot be changed because sexual

orientation is immutable. And I was also studying hypersexuality. So it's legitimate science. I mean, the technology is incredible in terms of what we're able to do and the questions we're able to probe. But I find it really upsetting to see how biology and biological explanations really are being denigrated now by people who, in many cases, know nothing about the field. They know nothing about what the research literature says. They have just simply decided that biology is threatening. And so they shut down and intimidate academics so that they can push their particular political agendas. Now, I know I have to just take a little trip down this side lane with you for a minute, because I got to ask you, if you're studying, you know, how did you put it? I'm in my

head, it's sexual oddities, but like our sexual proclivities. Yeah, they're kinks. Okay, perfect. Okay. Was there one that stood out to you as particularly odd? Well, the thing is,, I found it super fascinating. As you mentioned, I'm vanilla in my personal life, which people often find it difficult to believe, but I'm not kinky. I found it so fascinating because there are so many different paraphilias. I really found it interesting to hear what people are into, why they're into it. I also wanted to help remove the stigma and shame that often comes along with having an unusual sexual preference. But I would say one of my all-time favorites is probably

vorarophilia, which is the sexual fantasy of being swallowed whole by an animal. Stop it. It's pretty amazing. I wish I could experience this actually, but in some cases being, um, rebirthed. So the process of either being pulled back up into the uterus or, or being birthed out of the canal. So it sounds really unusual, but I think it's, it's interesting to me. And I think by understanding that there's so much shame around it by understanding it and talking about it and talking about sex, like it's no different from anything else. I think that would do people a lot of, of good. Okay. But let me, let me just say what everybody's thinking. That is weird. I know we're not supposed

to stick with that, but wow, that's weird. And are you, did you conclude there's something in the brain that develops that, that drives that proclivity? I found that there are, and there's a larger body of research to suggest that paraphilias are innate in that they are with someone from a very young age, they cannot be changed, and that whatever it is that someone finds sexually interesting, if it's very unusual, there's a biological component to that. So previously it was believed to be purely a social thing or that it's something that someone learned. I think there's a biological component to that. So previously it was believed to be purely a social thing or that it's something that someone learned. I think it's a combination of both, but the main takeaway is that if someone has a paraphilia, it's not something that they can

change. So if they're really into something sexually, they can't suppress that, especially not in men. They can't suppress that and be interested in something else. Another question on this, because a lot of people talked about this when Harvey Weinstein was in the news for all of his oddities and abuse. I mean, it was obviously abuse, but it seemed like with him, he almost needed an element of shame for his pleasure. He needed to be doing something that was just verboten in order to get there. And I remember thinking that's got to be some sort of a psychological thing. There's just like, that's not a thing that most people have, like in order to sort of get there sexually,

you need to be feeling ashamed of yourself or bad or awful. Did you look at his case at all? Did you have any feelings when you heard the stories about him? I did write about him. So it's difficult for me to say definitively because I've never met him and I haven't sat down and obviously done a full proper assessment. I don't do clinical work anymore. But from the coverage I read, my sense is for people, I have worked with sex offenders. I've worked with them both in a research capacity and clinically previously. One of the biggest factors involved in sexual offending or coercive sex is antisocial personality disorder.

So people with antisocial personality disorder really don't care about anybody else. Everyone is really at their disposal for whatever it is that they need them for. So in the case of sex, I mean, it's obviously coercive sex is a part of that. There's also a paraphilia called coercive paraphilia, where these individuals actually prefer coercive sex. They do not enjoy sex in which their partner is not actively trying to essentially fight them off, which is really disturbing. The narrative that rape or sexual assault is about power is not accurate. This is something I see everywhere. And I think if we are trying to really understand sexual offending behavior and to stop it, we have to understand

the root causes accurately. And if you actually sit down and talk to a sexual offender, I mean, most of them, the vast majority of them are lying through their teeth. But when you understand the research literature and how their minds work, it's always antisociality. In some cases, it's a paraphilia. For someone who enjoys seeing their partners suffering, they could be sadistic. So I would say those are probably factors that would be potentially explanations. Right. It's not to excuse it. It's to understand it. No, exactly. So can I just round back? If you want to be swallowed by an animal whole, do they hang out with pythons? How able to unfortunately swallow us whole i mean i guess some of them are the bigger ones but um usually it it revolves around a lot of imagination so they'll write stories they'll uh make cartoons or um not anime but

like animated uh images you know what i? I'm not explaining this very well, but it's basically a way to think about it and live through it without actually physically doing it. And so that's the case for a lot of paraphilias is that some of them can't be realized in real life. So the next best thing is to read descriptions of it or see images of it, even if they're not real images. My big thing with peripheralists are as long as they are consensual, it's no one's place to judge.

It's only when it goes into the realm of being non-consensual that I have a problem with it. Right. Wow. I mean, it's a fascinating field of study. You know, I'm talking about Trump for a living and you're doing that. I just like your job sounds really interesting. So that's just by way of background and how you got, I mean, really effectively forced out of your, out of your chosen profession, because you, you hit the one third rail you may not discuss in, in your profession as a scientist, which is what's real about biological sex?

Is it a spectrum? Is gender a social construct? And you're very clear in your book that biological sex is male or female, period. And gender is biological. It's not a social construct. And for this, you've been called a bigot, even a racist and a Nazi, which is weird, sort of a weird turn, because this has now become controversial. But let me just ask you straight up. Is there any doubt in your mind that biology is either male or female, biological sex is either male or female, or that gender too is biological.

It is not a social construct. No, there's no doubt in my mind. And by saying these things, I don't believe that this invalidates intersex or trans people. And we can talk about why. And it also doesn't say that culture plays no role in shaping gender, but definitely biology is the larger determinant in terms of gender, gender identity, gender expression. You write in your book that biology has effectively been canceled. It's canceled. It's been stigmatized. We're rejecting biology and science.

I mean, the same people who are telling us we need to listen to science when it comes to things like the environment. You know, liberals are telling us we can't listen to biology when it comes to gender, sex. And why is that? Because they're trying to be supportive of people who don't identify as male or female. I think part of it is that many people who deny biology, as I mentioned earlier, they don't understand it. They see it as hateful. I think we can acknowledge that a large part of who we are is predetermined and dictated by hormonal exposure in the womb. But that's not to say that we aren't capable of making our own choices or having a meaningful life. And I think when it comes to, say, the trans community or the intersex community, these individuals and activists believe that we have to pretend biology doesn't exist or biological sex doesn't exist in order to advocate for equal rights for these communities.

And I don't agree with that. I think that we can acknowledge biology is real and still say that these communities deserve equal rights, respect, legal protections, and especially for people who are transgender who transition. If biological sex didn't exist, what is the purpose of transitioning? Why would they need to transition? Because what would they be transitioning from and to? But the interesting thing is now that the word transgender, the umbrella, so-called umbrella, has expanded to include people who identify as non-binary, which is a third gender, which is essentially a mix of both genders or neither. The term transgender has also now encompassed gender non-conforming people. So these are people who just- I got to stop you there. No one's us anymore, because it gets so confusing. And I

know there's so many terms, but you got, you've got transgender people who identify as the opposite sex, then you've got, you've got non binary, who they're not sure, like, they're not, they say, I don't identify as a woman or a man or identify as both, but it's, or it could be fluid, right? I mean, but, but non-binary sort of encompasses people who are, they haven't exactly chosen a lane. Well, they're, they've chosen a lane and the lane is neither male or female. So it's in the book, I go through a whole long list. There are so many different ones. The most common ones would be, as you mentioned, gender fluid, gender neutral, gender queer. I don't like to use that word because to me queer is a slur against

the gay community a gender by gender and so essentially they're saying they're not male or female and they tend to non-binary people tend to go by they them pronouns although there's a whole other litany of pronouns that they may also use okay so i mean if you're explaining this to your kid because i i've had to explain this to my kids where they come home from school and they're like, well, my teacher said that there are up to 100 genders, you know, something like that. Or, you know, at least in Europe, they have three or four. Here they have over 100. We say that's not correct. There are two genders, male and female. And then there are folks who don't identify as either male or female. That's sort of how we sum it up. I don't believe there's over 100 genders, but what do you say? There are two genders. That's what's backed by science. I do think people can identify however they want, and I'll be respectful and use whatever pronoun they want. But from a scientific perspective, there are two. So I think what you're telling your kids is fantastic. So people who say gender is a social construct are the people who don't want to have the doctor say their baby is a boy or a girl when the baby's born. You know, you describe them in the book as this growing trend toward babies. People are having babies because they don't want their, their baby identified as a boy or a girl. and they're going to let their baby figure out whether they're a boy or a girl as they get older.

They basically think that your biology, your anatomy, has nothing to do with your gender? That's essentially what they think, my understanding anyway, they will. So if they are parenting babies, they will not tell people the sex of the baby. They say that they want the child to be able to decide their own gender. They'll use language like sex assigned at birth, which is not accurate. I don't like language like that because it makes it sound as though the physician arbitrarily determined what a child's sex is when statistically speaking, that determination will be correct 99 times out of 100 because only about 1% of the population is intersex. But these parents treat it as though this is something that there's a high likelihood of. And again, I'm fully in support of intersex people, but even intersex people, the vast majority will say that they want to live as a binary sex. They don't want to live as a... Can you define intersex?

Intersex are people who have, possess anatomy that is not characteristic of male or female. So in some cases they will have, say, a female external appearance, but have male internal organs, or they'll have ambiguous genitalia. So when they're born... Is that what we used to refer to as a hermaphrodite? Yes, previously, but that's now considered an insensitive term. So now people prefer to use intersex to describe that. So with these parents, I think I'd like to think that they have good intentions, but you will see cases now where parents will go one step further and they will now say that their child is non-binary. So their child is a third gender. And for the most part,

children don't have any understanding of gender until they're probably about age five. So children say all kinds of things. They don't understand that a person's gender doesn't change over time. So you can't take what a child says about their gender at face value. And I think in many cases, it's just parents trying to project their own politics on their kids or they're using their kids as a way to show off in terms of how progressive or open minded they are. And as you mentioned, I'm a liberal. I still consider myself to be progressive on many issues. But to me, this is wholly inappropriate. I mean, working out your own issues on your kids in any way is inappropriate, but this is particularly dangerous because it can lead to real psychological damage and physical damage. That's what Abigail Schreier is saying in her book, Irreversible Damage. And I

know, I'm sure you know Abigail and I've seen what she's doing on this work as well. Yeah. But just to take a step back. So let's say, you know, when the baby's born, there is a way of knowing biological sex. And what is it? I mean, is it is it anatomy? Is it boys have penises, girls have vaginas? Or is it something what determines boy or girl? Well, biological sex is determined by gametes. So these are mature reproductive cells, so eggs or sperm. When a baby is born, typically the doctor will make an assessment based on the external genitalia. In some cases, they can do chromosomal testing.

But for the most part, I don't think parents have to worry that the doctor is necessarily wrong. I think in the event that a child is intersex and you learn of that, leave, I mean, the biggest thing I would say to take away from that is intersex people should have bodily autonomy. And that's the other, that's the other thing I think activists are pushing for by this conception that biological sex doesn't exist or that it's a spectrum because they are saying intersex children especially should not be forced to undergo surgeries that they did not consent to. And I totally agree with that. I think people should be left alone. And if someone decides that when they are old enough, that's something that they want to do, that's

their choice. Or if they choose not to undergo surgery, then that should be perfectly fine too. But it's not accurate to say that a doctor's estimation is completely wrong or that as a result, we should just treat it as though a child is that, that these external markers don't mean anything. And that's what I'm seeing. I mean, we see medical organizations adopting this particular language, which I don't find helpful. I think it's just confusing to people. Well, and if it's all based on intersex children, which are only 1% of children born, why on earth would we be changing the entire references for boys and girls for gender based on 1%? They're a very rare condition, relatively speaking. I mean, it also includes people who just think, I don't know whether my kid is going to identify with the biological sex. And so I'm going to keep

that door open so he doesn't get tortured, you know, being born in a body that is a boy, but actually later identifying as a girl. And I've, I've socialized him as a boy all these years and I effectively tortured him. So I'm just going to let it unfold as nature intended, but that too, that too could cause real problems. And yet, we've really gone down this lane. And you point out in your book that there's some hospital, was it in Ohio? I can't remember where it was. That's like, they've gotten rid of the identification boy or girl on the little bracelet that the baby gets in the hospital when he's born or she's born and the mommy gets.

I mean, that's like those are in part necessary just to identify whose baby is whose and whether you have the right kid. It's insane now. They've taken that off. What to be politically correct. My sense is people are terrified of being called transphobic. They're terrified of being called a bigot. And when you say the things that I say, you get called those things, even if you aren't. So this is what's happened. It's been this real push from the activists and the bullying and the intimidation is real. I mean, people suffer real consequences to their careers if they speak out about this or if they go against it. So this is where we end up, where there are policies and guidelines being put into place that I don't think are actually necessarily beneficial to anyone. I don't think they're even necessarily good for the communities for which they claim to be protecting. And yeah, especially with the idea that gender is a social construct.

I mean, this is everywhere now and you see very little pushback about this. In 2017, when James Damore's infamous Google memo leaked to the public, and he argued that gender is not a social construct and that occupational preferences are not due to sexism, I thought that would be a turning point. I mean, I publicly defended him. I thought it would be a turning point, but it's only gotten worse since then. More with Deborah in just one minute. But first, Black Rifle Coffee Company is a veteran owned coffee company serving premium coffee to people who love America. Veteran CEO and founder Evan Hafer spent over seven years on the ground overseas

with U.S. Special Forces and as a CIA contractor. Evan even modified his gun trucks during the invasion of Iraq to grind coffee anywhere. The guy knows and loves coffee. Coffee's more than a business. It's a true passion, obviously, for him. Every morning while he was deployed, Evan would cheers his coffee cup with his team leader before heading out on patrols. Great coffee has a way of grounding us, no matter where we are. There's nothing better than starting your day with America's coffee. So go to blackriflecoffee.com slash mk today and check out the best coffee in America. America's coffee makes your holiday shopping easy with personalized bundles, gifted subscriptions to the coffee club, gift cards, and a whole lot of

premium coffee apparel and gear. Make your holidays better with Black Rifle Coffee. That's blackriflecoffee.com slash mk. That gets you 20% off coffee, apparel, and gear, as well as 20% off your first month of the coffee club. So just to take a step back, biological sex is either male or female. It's determined by gametes, meaning sperm or eggs, basically cells. Gender, you point out in the book. Okay, so there's two things so the audience can understand. There's your gender identity and your gender expression. Your gender identity is what? Your gender identity is either male or female. And this refers to how you feel in relation to your biological sex. So most people who are born male

will feel male internally, or they will identify as male. Most people who are born female will identify as female. So if you're not one of those people, if you're trans, your gender identity does not match up with your biological sex. That's right. And then gender expression is how you choose to sort of present yourself like dress, makeup, hair, that kind of thing. Exactly. And you say that both gender identity, whether you align with your biological sex and gender expression, whether you choose to do, you know, makeup and dresses and that kind of thing as a guy, for example, that those two are biologically determined. That's interesting. How can that be? Why is that?

It goes back to the prenatal environment and testosterone exposure. So higher levels of exposure to testosterone are associated with more male typical interests and behaviors. With the example of men wearing makeup, that's an interesting one because it can be due to this, but it can also be due to a paraphilia, which is different more feminine, that is probably biological. Yes. And the other thing with prenatal testosterone exposure is higher levels are also associated with sexual interest in women. So for gay men, they are on average exposed to lower levels of testosterone. So they are more likely to be feminine. I'm someone who grew up in the gay community. So I just want to say

that I'm fully in support of gay rights. I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay. But research has shown that it's likely due to lower levels of exposure to testosterone, which is what you also see with women who are sexually attracted to men. Well, and this is what we've been told for years by by folks in the gay community who are trying to say, stop targeting us, stop telling us we can't serve in the military and stop telling us we can't get married because we were, we were born with this sexual orientation and we don't, we don't want to be punished and we don't want to be sent to conversion camps because it's biological and we can't

be converted. Exactly. So sexual orientation cannot be changed. If someone is gay or bisexual, they cannot be made to be straight. And so I do think conversion therapy for sexual orientation is not effective. It's not ethical. I don't support it. However, there's been a movement more recently to lump gender identity into conversion therapy bands, which is not appropriate. And that's because gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. And gender identity, especially in young children, can change with development.

Yeah. In other words, now they're using the abhorrence for conversion therapy, like when we try to take our gay children and make them straight, right? Like, however, people were trying to do that. They're using that as a way of saying, trying to stop your allegedly trans kid from transitioning at age five is the same as conversion therapy. And your point is, it's not at all. They're two totally separate things. There are two different things, but I think activist groups have been very savvy in the way that they've marketed this to the public because people, and I believe rightfully so, are really against conversion therapy for sexual orientation. They know that it's harmful and that it doesn't work. And so now if you say, well, this also includes gender identity, who wants to be the person to say, actually, I don't have an issue with so-called conversion therapy for gender identity. And so we see actually in Canada, where I'm based in Toronto, we see a law, a bill that's about to be passed into law that's actually going to criminalize any therapeutic interventions that do not facilitate transitioning in children. And so mental health professionals cannot do their jobs properly. If you potentially face five years in prison for asking someone who is gender dysphoric, why do you feel that way? What else is going on in your life that could

lead you to feel this way? No one's going to do that. Who's going to risk that? And so I see the effects of this being really devastating in a few years, because these children are going to be changing their minds. Well, and it's madness, because the stats are not the same. You the I don't you tell me I'm guessing that virtually no child who thinks he's gay or thinks she's a lesbian grows out of it. Like your sexual orientation is what it is. I don't, since it is biological, they don't, they don't tend to grow out of it, but people do grow out of gender dysphoria where you, you think your, your sexual or your, your gender identity doesn't match up with your biological sex. And that's a large number,

right? Tell us what the numbers are for kids who think they're born in the quote, the wrong body, who then grow out of it and turn out to be totally in the right body. And they understand that. Across all of the studies that we currently have, it's approximately 60 to 90%. So it is the vast majority. But the other thing is with this narrative. So with sexual orientation, gay and lesbian people will say, I knew from a very young age, I've always felt this way. It can't be changed no matter how much I try. I don't think they should have to try. But the way that some trans activists also speak about their experiences of gender dysphoria, they discuss it in a similar way. They say that they felt this way since they were very young and it can't be changed. They try to change? And they tried to fight it and they couldn't.

But the thing is, in many cases, I mean, there's a subtype within, say, trans women. So people born male who identify as female. There are some who experience gender dysphoria from a very young age. But there are some who also don't experience it until the onset of puberty. And that's a completely different subset. And what's happening is that subset is, is claiming that the children are the same when they're not, they're two different presentations. So that's another way in which I think the public is being basically pushed or coerced along to agreeing with this because they think, well, the narratives are the same as people who are gay. So who are we

to question that? Right. I think a lot of these folks are trying to be supportive, kind, loving, non-bullying, and not Neanderthal-like. That's what they're trying to do. But without pausing to ask themselves, what is supportive? Is being supportive letting my 16 year old have a double mastectomy because she's going through potentially just a phase where she's unhappy. She doesn't like her pubescent body. Like you got to really figure out what does supportive mean? Cause you could be actually feeding into an unhealthy phase. Your child's going through that if left alone, she or he would totally grow out of. So what do you think, like, what is the age for parents out there wondering? I mean, I think most parents, most, wouldn't be looking at their three-year-old boy

who wants to wear dresses and say, oh, he's a girl. He's a girl. But what is the age where you start to take them, you know, very seriously on claims that they're in the wrong body? One more point I wanted to make actually about conversion therapy is that now the push to allow kids to transition, the kids who are gender dysphoric, it is the new conversion therapy. And many of my colleagues who do therapy will say this because what you're doing is you're essentially taking these children who would have otherwise grown up to be gay in adulthood. And because they're transitioning, when they grow up, they're going to appear to be straight. Because if you have a very feminine little boy, parents, some parents, I think, know that there's a chance their son's going to grow up to be a gay man and be attracted to men. But if that little boy transitions to female, when she grows up and she's attracted to men, she's going to appear to be a straight woman.

Can I just ask, I saw that in your book, but I don't understand that because it, to me, when I picture that parent, who's like, I don't want him to be gay. I don't want her to be a lesbian. That doesn't seem like a parent who's going to say like, so let's change her sex altogether. Now I'm going to make him, I'm going to make him be a girl. That just doesn't sound congruous, but you tell me. You would think so. And I mean, I do get critics who say that to me that parents are not more accepting of trans children than they are of gay children. But I have colleagues who do therapy who will tell me this, that the parents are fully on board with this idea of transitioning their child because their child won't appear to be gay. What other examples can I give you? I mean, I've talked to some detransitioners who

would tell me that when they decided to detransition, their parents were not supportive because they knew that they were lesbian and they didn't want them to be lesbian. I don't think all parents who make this decision are necessarily coming from a place of being homophobic, but I do think it's an issue that we're not talking about, and that these parents are being lauded as though they're forward thinking and they're loving when it's really not the case. Right. So it's homophobic conversion therapy. It's a socially accepted homophobic conversion therapy. Oh my gosh. I mean, that's dark and it's dramatic and it's awful.

And these parents are feeding into a system that you now point out is managed by doctors who in Canada and more and more here are being told there's only one thing to do. Affirm. Don't even question. Don't even ask. Are you going through a divorce in your family? Did you recently suffer some sort of a tragedy? Has this child been bullied? Is there something going on with him or her physically or with respect to the kids at school? You're not supposed to get into that as if one psychological state has absolutely nothing to do with the inquiry about whether a child should transition. Yeah, it's seen as hateful. It's seen as hateful to try and understand

whether the gender dysphoria could be explained by other factors. But going to your question about the appropriate age, in an ideal world, parents would be able to take their child to a mental health professional and the professional would be able to do a proper assessment and determine, is this something, how long has the child been feeling this way? If they transition, is this really going to be the best decision for them? Because this is a lifelong decision. If you do undergo these medical interventions, they are lifelong and they come with potentially irreversible side effects that someone will have to live with if they do decide not to take them anymore. So that is not where we are in the climate right now, because as I mentioned, clinicians now they face potentially going to prison. I know in the U.S. that 20 states have bans on conversion therapy, which include gender identity

in that. So what you see instead is that all of the therapists who do this work are activism driven. And so they will just affirm. So what would you do? I mean, what would you tell a parent to do? Because I tell you, if this ever happened to me, I would not be taking them to one of these therapists. That does not sound safe or smart or based in science. So where would you go? What would you do? No. And from the conversations I've had with parents, they will say to me, the worst decision they made was actually to take their children to a gender therapist because the therapist makes it even more difficult for the child to not decide to transition. I would say seek out any support you can that is not in favor of this jump on the bandwagon, early transitioning.

There are a few clinicians who are willing to do that work. They're very few and far between. Most of them are close to retirement, so they don't care if they get fired and they don't really care what people have to say about them. I would say the most important thing is to love your child no matter what and to try and have your relationship revolve around other things than their gender or whatever however they're feeling about their gender to take the pressure off in that way and to just just support them more generally I mean it's I

think I think for a lot of these kids and as you mentioned it can be a phase for a lot of them they are expressing genuine distress. And nowadays, because gender is so trendy, that's the way that they're expressing it. But in many cases, there are other mental health conditions. Often there is a diagnosis of autism. In many cases, they are gay or lesbian. Many of them have a history of sexual trauma. And that's not being addressed at all. Others have eating disorders. So it's really important that those issues are talked about.

It's difficult for parents to know what's going on in therapy. But that would be my advice. And just to not feel bad about questioning it, because parents are also being shamed if they question what their child is telling them, or if they question the mental health professional, or if they question the teachers and doctors. And I think most parents, I mean, parents know their children the best. So don't ever feel bad for having that gut feeling that something is not right. another psychological disorder. 61% presenting with gender dysphoria have another psychological disorder. So to pretend that we shouldn't, you know, try to connect those dots or figure out whether it's that other psychological disorder driving the decision to want to cut off your breasts and prevent yourself really from being fertile. You know, we talked about this with Abigail that if you go on puberty blockers, you never let your child have puberty,

go into puberty, and then give your child cross-sex hormones, she's infertile. She will never have a baby. She will never breastfeed a baby. It's done. So you're making a lifelong, irreversible decision for somebody who, again, as she's

pointing out in, as you point out, the American Journal of Psychiatry pointed out in the vast majority of these cases has another psychological disorder. And now the poor parents can't even like probe that in a productive way because the psychiatrists are being told you got to side with the kid side with the declaration of being trans in all cases, or you're a bigot and you're in trouble. The doctors. Yeah. And I understand to some extent why people don't want to talk about the mental health aspect or they want to downplay the comorbidity, because I do think trans people have faced unfair stigma for being trans and people will often dismiss the way they feel as being purely due to uh how should i say this a mental disorder that because there's such stigma

around having a mental health condition so i activists have tried to completely remove any aspects of mental health from gender dysphoria or from transitioning, which I don't think is helpful because that's a huge part of the equation in terms of determining what's best for you. So again, it's a situation where you have activists who have taken the complete. They view it as very black and white. And the suppression of this information is not ultimately going to be helpful for anyone who is considering transitioning. It's so tricky because we for so long just bullied anybody who thought they were trans. And, you know, they have high suicide rates, although I understand that that's not hasn't been determined whether that's because of people not accepting them or because they sort of were depressed and feeling unwell prior to having these issues. But the point is, bullying of trans people, adults or kids, is not acceptable. But the answer is not to overcorrect by declaring everyone trans and suitable for surgery without probing whether it's actually the issue, whether it's actually the real issue.

And you point out in the book, most transgender adults agree with you on this. They don't want to see teenagers running to have irreversible surgeries and render themselves infertile. And usually that's not what transgender adults did themselves. Absolutely. And it's been a really huge relief to me to have trans people reach out and say this to me because I'm not transgender and I never want to pretend like I'm speaking for the community. And I do think a lot about how to be responsible with this information because I don't want it to be used to hold back the community or to just justify discrimination against them.

But definitely, I mean, this newer wave of the young women that we're seeing, especially with rapid onset gender dysphoria, they're transitioning very quickly. Often they have no history of gender dysphoria. In many cases, it's because they've gone through puberty. They're not happy with the changes. I mean, puberty takes an adjustment. It's not a fun process for anybody. And instead of saying to young women, you have breasts, your body has

changed, you may be getting sexual attention in a way that you didn't before and you don't like it. But that's not to say you're not a woman. And I think also with the non-binary movement, what I see is a lot of young women who are not stereotypically feminine. So they may be more male typical and they think because they're not stereotypically feminine or they look around at their peers and there's a real push for young women to self-sexualize nowadays. I mean, I think that push has always been there, but especially with social media, it's even more. What does that mean, self-sexualize? Well, to embrace their sexuality at such a young age and to really put signals out there, I would say. And so I think for young women who are not interested in that or don't don't feel like they can they don't want that for themselves, they think, well, that must mean I'm not really a girl, but it's not and i don't know what no it's ridiculous because women girls who are are more masculine in appearance you're in our tent we're good we don't all look totally feminine

and wear the dresses and the you know put curls in the hair but like why why are we losing women from our ranks just because there's some it's more trendy to say you're trans like what whatever happened to it's kind of awesome to be a woman and why are people running from it now? Exactly. And I find it really upsetting as a woman to see this happening. And especially when I talked to D transitioners, when I was writing this book, it really disturbed me to see how society is not pushing back on any of this. And to me, it's, to me, that's extremely sexist to say, well, if you're not super feminine, then you must not count as a woman. And why, why is our culture saying fantastic will help you live as a man or as a third gender will, will help you get surgery

and remove your breasts and not even question this. And I do think that sounds misogynistic that you would define womanhood so narrowly that only someone who looks like June Cleaver is in the tent. Yeah. That's ridiculous. It's insane. It's insane. And I'm's not as cool, but some sort of trans or non-binary or, you know, whatever the numerous terms are. And these kids are starting to see it as a cure-all, you know, like you're heavy, you have acne, you don't fit in, you're not popular. And then suddenly you just declare yourself as trans or one of these things. And people are like, Ooh, she's interesting. Or

he's interesting. Oh wow. Like they're part of a club, an instant club with instant friends and support all over the internet. Nevermind in the school where they're getting paraded out onto the stage in the auditorium and people are clapping for them. Whereas they might just be going through a difficult phase in life and looking for an off-ramp that will give them some relief from the hell that is puberty and was for all of us. Yeah. And I think for older people who especially identify as non-binary or want to lump themselves into the trans umbrella, it's a way to fit in, which sounds so ridiculous because trans people are a marginalized group and they do face, I think, legitimate discrimination and

oppression in some cases. But you will see some people now identifying as non-binary, they'll identify as queer, which again, I don't like that term because I find it offensive because it gets them points in terms of their social group, in terms of showing how progressive they are. And actually there was a study by Lisa Littman. I think you've spoken about this before. And in her study, she found that teachers were more concerned about anti-trans bullying than anti-gay bullying.

So gay students are basically left to their own devices, but if they were to identify as trans, then... More with Debra So in just one minute, but first we want to bring you a feature we call Asked and Answered, where our listeners write in to us with some questions and we try to provide some answers. Steve Krakauer is our executive producer and he's got the first half of this equation. Hey, Steve. That's right, Megan. Lots of great questions continue to come in. And so we would ask for more questions at devilmaycaremedia.com. Love hearing from everyone. This was a really interesting one from Amy, who has a question for you, but also really lays out a lot of this in her note. She says, my children attend an elite Los Angeles private middle high school. In July of this year, all families at the school were sent a diversity, equity, and inclusion manifesto setting forth the school's plan to implement immediate policies, practices, and procedures to become an anti-racist school. And then she gives

out some of the highlights of this, but she really wants to know, she's part of the group of parents who have really embraced this and also, she says, are embracing free speech and open debate. But she wants to know, how can she combat this? She wants to know, besides pulling children out of the school, what do you recommend families do in this type of situation? Well, I appreciate the question because no one objects to a school being anti-racist. It's a question of how they get there. And too often in today's day and age, the school's putting out racist literature in order to supposedly support an anti-racist agenda. And that's where parents get upset, right? You don't divide people and then ask them to unite. We're seeing that at the federal level right now with the presidential election. And it

doesn't work in schools either to sort of demonize instead, to overcompensate for demonizing one group for far too long to then demonize the other. So what we need is buy in, need buy in by the whole school community as opposed to something that sows division. I think, you know, number one, the best thing is to make a good selection in schools and try to find out whether ideologically you guys align before you go in. Easier said than done, especially when you're in a public school. You know, most people go to public schools. they live in the district, they pay taxes, the school has to take their kids, and that's what makes sense for the family. So that's a

tougher battle. But I think even there, number one, speak up. You know, as we've been discussing on this show, you've got to speak up because, and on all these shows that we've been covering these issues on, if you don't, who else will? If not you, then who? And there is safety in numbers. If you can find others, even quietly asking around, like who's with me? You know, what's a good message? How can we raise this sensitively?

And, you know, with respect for the country's mood and what's happening right now. And I think if you think it's a battle you can win, you have open-minded administrators or you have enough parents that you feel they have no choice, but to listen to you, then you, then you should fight. Then you should, you should stand up for viewpoint, diversity, different kinds of speakers. You know, if you're going to bring in somebody who I think is crazy in her messaging, like a Robin DiAngelo, then you better bring in a Coleman Hughes to respond, right?

Like be balanced. I don't know that they're going to do it. And I think ultimately, if you get to the point where you realize you're just banging your head against the wall and nothing's going to change, and this is just causing aggravation in your life for no reason, right? Because you're not going to persuade them. Then you have to think about dramatic next steps like leaving. And that is an option. You know, you can move. It's up to you whether you want to spend the next X years counter-programming your child so that he or she doesn't get shamed for things like their pigmentation or their gender that they have no control over, or whether you just want to go to a school that doesn't make it this hard for

you, you know, that tries to keep its heavy social justice agenda out of the curricula, you know, or there is more working in tandem with you, at least neutral would be nice. Like you keep that stuff out or you keep it as an afterschool activity and therefore parents who want to join it can, but all this stuff comes at the expense of a school's curriculum. And that's a problem too, right? Like we sent them there to learn history, math, all the stuff, and not to be activated with somebody else's ideology. And I think, you know, you're the boss. If you're in public school, you pay the bills. If you're in private school, you pay the bills. And you have a voice. And sort of as we've been discussing on a

theme of this show, don't be shamed into silence. Speak up. If you think the fight is futile, get out. And I will be wishing you luck. I hope I hear a follow up. So shoot us another note. Let us know how it goes. Thank you for that. So wait, wait one more time, Steve. What is the email for people who have questions? Questions, plural questions at devilmaycaremedia.com. Nice. Look forward to hearing from all of you. And now back to Debra. So I love the part of your book where you go through, I would love to just have you name all of them, because it was a very powerful part of your book. We just list all the all the new quote, genders that people are throwing out there. But can you tell us your favorite sort of, I'm saying new gender that people are saying there?

Because it's not just those terms that Debra threw out earlier. Like, I don't know. I can't even remember them all. But it's not just non-binary. It's not just male, female, and non-binary. Now people are saying, what's your favorite one? My favorite is, okay, there are a couple. But moon gender, which means your gender only comes out at night. There's also puzzle gender, which means your gender needs to be put together like a puzzle. And then astro gender, which means you're like an astronaut floating through space, determining what your gender is. But that's not a comprehensive list. As you mentioned, there are countless, literally, there's an, I feel like there's a new one every day. Moon gender, wider than, I mean, come on. And then there's one you

point out in the book, arbor gender. What's arbor gender? That someone identifies as a tree. No, I refuse. I do not recognize you. I don't care. You can call me a bigot all you want. I X on moon gender and X on arbor gender gender rejected. And by the way, they're not adding those to LGBTQ because there's already too many letters in there. You add moon, arbor, astro. I mean, it's gotten to the point of absurd. It just kind of shows how so many of these people are just looking to feel special, looking to feel special. But you can't challenge this. I mean, medical professionals, if someone were to go in and to say they identified as any of these magical genders, you can't question it. I do think that for many people who are identifying this way, especially young people, they are trying to figure out who they are, as we all were. And that's just part of development. But I'm just astounded that parents and adults are not... I mean, I think it's okay to say, you know what, I see this as something other than what it is. But I think people have just been so cowed into believing what they're being told by activist groups, that it's

bigoted to question any of this, that questioning self-identification in any way is hateful and harmful. And so that's why they simply go along with it. Oh, yeah. I mean, you talk about how their parents are now told, if you interfere at all, if you do anything other than accept, your child's going to kill him or herself. And the question is, would you rather have, like if it's your son who comes and says, I think I'm trans, I'm actually a girl. The question is, would you rather have a happy daughter or a dead son? And you say that is a morally bankrupt question. It is not okay to be asking parents of potentially trans kids this.

Why? Because what kind of parent is going to say, yes, I prefer a dead child? Of course, they're going to say they prefer a happy child. And so they're being emotionally blackmailed by medical professionals, by activists, by organized, I would say even medical and scientific organizations into going along with this because they feel they have no choice. They really believe that if they do not allow their child to transition and they don't support the child in transition, that the child is going to kill themselves. And meanwhile, the other problem here is that we're not just talking about a theoretical version of support. Like I support you and I love you. And we'll just

sort of see this phase play out where you can be like, all right, you know, she wants to be called by a boy name and she wants to dress as a boy and I love her. So we're going to do it. These kids are getting surgery and getting surgery is easier than ever. Not to mention cross-sex hormones, which can be gotten in way too many instances without your parents knowing or support. Right. So it's like the medical community is in cahoots, not just in accepting, accepting, accepting, but actually operating on these kids in ways that are irreversible. It's so fast to the process by which they can get approved for surgery. So there are guidelines that say you have to wait a certain amount of time. You know, you're not supposed to start blockers until this point and then cross-sex hormones and then surgery if you decide to. But in many cases, those age

milestones are surpassed if the parents are okay with it. And the parents in many cases think that this is going to be life-saving for their child. So of course they go along with it. And the parents in many cases think that this is going to be life-saving for their child. So of course they go along with it. I've heard of some cases where girls as young people, people born female as young as age 12 are getting double mastectomies and puberty blockers are being given to children as young as age eight in some cases. And to me, I mean, eight is obviously way too young. I think even age 12 is too young to be making a decision about permanently removing parts of your body. What is the age, right? Like I was asking you that earlier, what is the age? And one of the options

is to love, support, don't be cruel to a child saying this, you know, be open-minded, but at least postpone any big moves until puberty hits and see if it's persisting at that point. But is there an age by which you should accept a child's declaration? And, and also is there a timeframe over which they must've been saying it, you know, like you, there should be no surgery after six months of somebody saying, I'm actually in the wrong body. But is there a timeframe that is acceptable? Well, with the medical guidelines,

so they suggest not starting puberty blockers until the child has actually started puberty. And then cross-sex hormones are not to be started until a child is believed to have the capacity for informed consent. So that's generally seen to be about age 16, although some allowances have been made for children younger than that. And then usually with double mastectomies, that's supposed to not be until a child has been on cross-sex hormones for two years, although I've heard of cases where it's been a year,

sometimes less than that. And then genital surgery is not supposed to be until legal adulthood. So those are the guidelines. But from the stories I'm hearing from parents, there's definitely a lot of room there for personal decision. And I understand to some extent because I do believe medical gatekeeping has been an issue for trans people historically. They haven't been able to get access to the care that they deserve. But I don't think the solution to that is to go in the complete opposite direction and to basically say it's on demand now. No, especially when I know you spoke with endocrinologists in the book who point out delaying puberty is not perfectly safe. There are physical consequences to delaying puberty that it's a critical time for your physical, your psychosocial development, you say in the book. And we just don't fully understand what the consequences of arresting that in a young boy or a young girl, even if you restart it later, will be? Yeah, the research, we don't yet know what the long-term effects are. I previously,

as I mentioned, I thought that this was the best way forward for these kids because to me, before I began looking at the research literature, I thought, well, it makes sense that if you were to halt these otherwise permanent changes that go along with puberty, wouldn't that help a child then live as the sex they like to live as instead of having to live with physical changes that would make that more difficult? But as I discuss in the book, we don't have those data yet. But parents, from my understanding, are being told that puberty blockers are a pause button and that if someone decides that they don't want to continue on with transition, that they can just stop taking them and that everything will resume as normally.

And they've also been told that there's no harm done in if your daughter, for example, is saying she thinks she's a boy and you're trying to be supportive and let her do that. The notion that there's no harm done in her declaring herself publicly a boy is not supported because once she's declared it and put herself out there as being trans and gotten all the accolades, it makes it a lot tougher for a 13 year old girl to go back on that. Like there is skin in that game. A social transition is associated with going on to undergo medical interventions associated with transition. So this is a piece of the discussion that is not being talked about. And I don't think parents who are even agreeing

to allow their child to socially transition necessarily know this, because they're being told a social transition is harmless. And if you allow your child to live as the opposite sex, even if there are no medical interventions involved, that this is totally reversible. They can change their mind at any time. And they'll say something like, oh, young children are not undergoing surgery. That's ridiculous. But even just socially transitioning, as I mentioned, is associated

with going on because it is difficult for a child to say to everyone in their life, I've been living as the opposite sex for however long, and I made a mistake. And so now you've gone this long calling me by the opposite sex. Now we have to go back to being referred to by my birth sex. And for detransitioners I spoke to, they told me it's a really shameful process. People underestimate that. And also for young children who are being given so much praise and attention for transitioning, as you mentioned, they will, in some cases, get parties thrown for them at school. They will get all the adults in their life telling them that they're so courageous.

And I mean, why would you want to give that up? It also makes other kids, their peers say, well, what do I need to do to get that kind of attention and praise? Right. It's celebrated now. And again, in an attempt to overcorrect a bullying mindset, we've crossed over to celebration, which is fraught as well. Because, you know, you point out that in discussing what Lisa Lippman found, this scientist who, she was a pediatrician, physician and assistant professor at Brown University. And she's the one who did the research on this looking like a, a social contagion among, among girls, among young, young girls who typically never suffered from gender dysphoria historically, but now are the majority of, of kids suffering from it allegedly. And, um, that allegedly, and that something like 40% of the young girls who declare themselves trans had multiple friends coming out as transgender as well.

That there does appear to be a social contagion factor here. Yeah, that 40% of them had a friend group in which at least half of their friends also identified as transgender. And this is 70 times, 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of the incidence of people who identify as trans. So to me, that is a red flag. I have people reaching out to me from all over the world who will say to me that this issue affects them. If it's not their own child, they know someone's child or their child is in a class with multiple kids who are

trans. I think Megan, I've heard you say something like that in a previous episode where you, you know, a family who, I mean, it's just the fact that so many- They have a daughter who's socially awkward and she's declared herself trans. She's a little heavyset. She's a little socially awkward and now she's declared herself trans and She's a little heavy set. She's a little socially awkward. And now she's declared herself trans and they want to be supportive, but they're really very much wondering whether it's these other things, these feelings of ostracization that are driving it. Yeah. Or even when there are two or three trans boys in a given class, to me, that's just statistically so unlikely. And people will say, oh, it's due to greater social acceptance.

But if that's the case, why do we not see the same thing happening with people born male? And when you talk to these young women who have detransitioned, they will say that they had other things going on that were not addressed, that they wish someone had brought up and said, maybe we should talk about this instead of taking what you're saying and running with it. And that's what I find the most heartbreaking is the young women who were essentially let down by the medical community. And they continue to be because there is no support, virtually no support available to them. They now have to navigate living with,

in some cases, permanent side effects of having been on these interventions and testosterone or surgery. And where's the guidance for them? They're being told that they don't exist. If you look at how the mainstream talks about them, they're being told that they never really had gender dysphoria or that they're so statistically rare that it doesn't matter. And I don't understand with a movement that is so obsessed with so-called lived experience, why it is the lived experience of these individuals doesn't matter. So much of this story hurts women. So much of this story inures to the detriment of women. Young girls being told the woman tent is as narrow as they come. And if they if they look a little bit more masculine or feel a little bit more masculine, they're not welcome in our gender. They're no longer girls. Girls who are surrounded by girls suffering with social issues or psychological issues who declare themselves trans at school and then feel

pressured into doing it themselves and feel shamed about their sexuality, about their bodies, about their period, and decide, who the hell wants to be a woman? I'm going to cross over to where I don't have to deal with this nonsense and I can be more socially accepted. Girls who then get no support from a medical system who immediately confirms that they must indeed be not a girl have to deal with this nonsense and I can be more socially accepted. Girls who then get no support from a medical system who immediately confirms that they must indeed be not a girl if they're suffering these things. They need to be therapized out of puberty and girlhood and starts pumping them full of hormones that rendered them potentially infertile, leading to them having top surgery, cutting off their breasts. If they take male hormones, they start to grow male anatomy that

cannot be undone and they will not want if they detransition. And then women who aren't trans, but speak up about this saying, this doesn't seem right. And I don't necessarily agree with trans girls, you know, girls who were born boys, um, running in girls track meets or wrestling against my daughter. And then they're called turfs, which is a derogatory term for women who speak up about these. It's like women get the short end of this argument every time. And I just, I, I feel like nine times out of 10, it's these very loud trans activists who Abigail was telling me, you know, those are, those are people who were identified male at birth. They grew up largely as boys and men who are trying to shut these women up from saying, I love you. I'm listening to you, but I have something I need to say too. I'm concerned.

Yeah. I mean, the extreme, the extreme way that this is playing out is look at even in prisons where gender identification now is based on self-determination. So a male sex offender who sexually abused women, if he decides that he identifies as female, he'll be housed in a female ward or female prison. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. This is happening in California. This is happening in the UK. And as you said, women continually get the short end of the stick. And I'm not sure what more it's going to take for people to wake up and fully see this and find that the potential costs of speaking out are outweighed by what can be gained by doing so. Because I don't feel we really have a choice.

It's just going to continue getting worse until we do. We're not even allowed to hold on to the things that have previously been celebrated and some of the great things about being a woman that only a woman can do. You know, like you're not you point out the book. It's now considered transphobic to say women give birth, women have vaginas, women have periods. Now you're a transphobe if you say that, because you've got to keep, you've got to keep open to the fact that I guess men can have vaginas, men can have babies. I'm just, it's like, can we just have what we have? And then if you want in, you are welcome. But you don't get to take away what is ours. What is ours by nature, by God, by birthright? I just like the fact that it's controversial to say women have babies. Women are the ones who have babies is outrageous. And somehow and it's not transphobic to say otherwise and yet this is what's led to jk rowling having such a blowback against her and being decried as hateful i don't like it's

a small group but they've totally co-opted the language in the narrative there's a double standard too because you will see say with the news outlets they will still talk about men's sperm or they'll refer to male physiology and they won't feel the need to qualify what they're referring to when they talk about men. But if it's anything to do with women or women's bodies or women's reproductive abilities, then there needs to be some sort of qualification as to what they're referring to by using the word woman. And I'm totally in favor of being inclusive with language, but I don't think that requires us

making any reference to being female for Bowdoin. And I think that it's just, I always try to find the most sensitive way I can word this. And then you alluded to this earlier, but when you look at who is demanding these changes, I think that speaks a lot to why it's so one-sided. And, and what, what's upsetting to me as somebody who has two trans women in my family is I don't think most, most trans people feel this way at all. I think they're being, they're being grouped unfairly into a group of activists who are very loud and don't speak for them. I don't think most trans women or trans men want to put these restrictions on language, want to say that it's, it's transphobic for women to celebrate motherhood. It's absurd. And yet this

very small group of activists has managed to shut everybody else up. Not you, thankfully, not Abigail, but effectively because your books have gotten banned in some places. You've had to fight just to have it listed online at Target. Why? Because this small group will say Target's bigoted. You're bigoted. I'm bigoted for having the conversation. And, you know, unless more people just, I guess, become okay with being called names, we're going to lose this fight. And to the detriment of little girls, middle school, adolescent girls, and women as well. Why did, why should JK Rowling have to go through this shit? I realize she's a billionaire and people are like, screw her. Why should she have to go through this

just for her expressing her opinion? No, she, she shouldn't have to. No woman should have to. No one period should have to. And I'm concerned about what the repercussions of this, what the consequences will be for trans people. So not for the activists who are the very vocal minority who claim to speak for the entire community. And I don't even think the most aggressive and malicious activists necessarily represent all trans activists, but they definitely don't represent the community. And I think people are going along with this right now because they're afraid. But I do think there could potentially be a backlash to the community because the average person says, look at the things that these activists are asking for. These are not reasonable. And as you said, most people in the community, they reach out,

people who have reached out to me will say, I would never ask for the things that trans activists are asking for on my behalf. And they're actually quite horrified at the fact that this is what people are being told. So I do worry about that. I worry about what the long term effects are going to be because the activists do not represent what most people in the community are thinking or feeling. You get into the book, something I mentioned in passing, which is trans boys, sorry, trans girls. And I know it's confusing to people still getting used to language that means identified male at birth, but thinks that they're more aligned with being a

girl. So trans girls competing in girls sports, and that more and more we're seeing it happen. More and more people are afraid to speak up. Because, I mean, look what happened to Martina Navratrola, who is a gay rights activist and icon. And she said, geez, I don't really think that the trans guys should be allowed to or trans girls, forgive me, should be allowed to compete in women's sports. And everybody was like, bigot. She got awards taken away from her. She was like, whoa. She was on her heels immediately. And she's been trying to make up for it ever since.

But this is a big issue. Should trans girls be allowed to compete against, they're called cis girls, you know, born as a girl and identify as a girl for your whole life in sports? Can you tell us the example you cite in the book with Serena and Venus Williams? Right. So with your question, I would say at the elite level, no, I don't think so. I don't think that's appropriate, but I can understand why people are pushing for this because sport can be about more than just competition. It can be about community as well and a sense of belonging. So with regard, I mean, there are biological differences associated with athletic performance. And so when you look at the Williams sisters, so they were able to, I mean, they're phenomenal, but they were still beaten by a male athlete who was ranked, I believe, 203rd in the world. So, I mean, people are pretending as though

biological sex plays no role in terms of athletic performance or that there is no advantage that comes along with having been born male and undergoing male puberty. But that's not true. And I think most people know that's not true. So this is essentially a fairy tale that people are telling. And they're telling women who have a problem with this, and especially young women who are competing for university scholarships or opportunities that could be life changing for them. They're telling them that they should basically just suck it up and train harder, which I don't think is fair. Right. Because you point out that even the international Olympic committee, which has had to deal with this and said, all right, well, here's the deal. You have to make sure that

your testosterone level, if you're a trans woman is below a certain number, then, then you can compete against the women against cis women. Okay. So somebody determined what that number ought to be, but you point out in the book that this still, even this level, um, allows trans female athletes to compete with testosterone levels that are almost six times higher than what cis women would have. So there's still a testosterone advantage and a muscle advantage, right? I mean, it's like, it doesn't just because you decide to transition doesn't mean soon thereafter your muscle advantage goes away. Right. And as well as your physical stature, people are acting as though if someone is taking estrogen, then that's going to completely

eradicate any of these advantages. And that's just not true. But what I find really, I don't know that thought provoking is the right way to describe this. But when you look at how this issue has been covered, people will say, why is it that these critics have such an issue with trans girls competing against girls? Why is it they also don't have an issue with trans girls competing against girls? Why is it they also don't have an issue with trans boys competing against boys? And I'm just dumbfounded because I think to myself, do these people have absolutely no understanding of biology or are they so ideologically possessed that they really think this is just about discrimination? Because otherwise, why would you even think that is a relevant thing in this conversation to consider? Right, of course not. I mean, girls transitioning to boys do not have any sort of

muscle advantage or testosterone advantage over cis boys. That's obvious. Like that's, that's disingenuous, right? I mean, you do, you talk in the book about, write in the book about just sexuality in general and gender roles and sort of where we are as a society. You know, it was in the news last week that Harry Styles, he was on the cover of Vogue. He's a singer and he, he was wearing like a dress and Candace Owens took a shot at him. Ben Shapiro took a shot at him as like, you know, this is the erosion of masculinity and we can't survive without masculine men. I actually was wondering what you thought of it because Harry Styles does not describe himself as non-binary or, you know, in between genders or not sure. He's like, I'm a cis man. I was born a boy. I am a guy. I'm good. But is maybe not traditionally masculine, is presenting as more feminine. And I think you can make the argument that I was making on behalf of women, on behalf of men. Maybe men would be saying, our tent's big too. Harry can stay. He doesn't have to say he's non-binary or something other. Like, in a way, I thought maybe Harry Styles is sort of the solution to this problem by saying,

you don't have to abandon your gender in order to take on things that may not be considered traditionally masculine or feminine. People sometimes assume because of the things I say that I'm in favor of traditional gender norms, And I'm definitely not. I do understand the outrage that people voiced as a result of that cover, because I do think to some extent masculinity is pathologized. And I write about this in my book and how men are seen as toxic or inherently misogynistic or sexual predators by default. And I don't agree with any of that. Like you said, I think that's totally acceptable if a man wants to wear a dress. I don't think he should have to identify as another gender.

So I see both sides of it. But for me, I'm of the mind, live and let live. And women, we are allowed to dress more masculinely. And for the most part, people don't give us a hard time about that. So I feel the same thing should be allowed of men. I would think men should be allowed to be more masculine if they want. And if they want to wear a dress that's more stereotypically seen as feminine or is feminine, then that's fine too.

See, I agree with you. But then I also feel the other side of it is don't shame me when I tell you that's not a man I'm attracted to in the least. I want a manly man. I want a man who's all man. That's what I want. And it doesn't make me homophobic or transphobic or any of the phobics. It makes me like the vast majority of American women. We like guys who are strong, who are assertive, who don't wear dresses, who are leaders, who are ambitious, who are reward-oriented, all those things. And it doesn't mean there's no room in our attractive circle for people who are a little different than that, but there's nothing wrong with you if you like that kind of a man. It doesn't make those kinds of men toxic. That's that's absurd. That's offensive. Most women, straight women definitely would prefer a masculine

man. But the strange thing is very progressive women seem to really struggle with admitting that even to themselves. And I think part of it is also this movement now to say that sexual orientation or human sexuality is socially constructed or it's a spectrum. So that's to say, really, we should be sexually open to pretty much anyone, no matter what they look like, doesn't matter what sort of anatomy they have. And I do think whoever you're attracted to, that's totally fine. I don't think there should be stigma around people being attracted to, you know, in my research previously, I would talk to men who had many partners who were trans women, and they would feel all sorts of negative feelings about that.

In many cases, they wouldn't introduce their girlfriend to their families or their friends. And I don't think that's okay. I obviously think that there should be no stigma around dating trans people or dating anybody. But we also don't have to go so far to say that any sexual interest is completely modifiable or completely arbitrary. And I think that's very invasive. And in some ways, that's coercive, because the way it's playing out for the lesbian community is they're being told, if you are attracted to women, you should be attracted to women with a penis, because biology is socially constructed. So the penis doesn't really exist. And for lesbians, I'm not a lesbian, but my understanding is that the defining factor is not being sexually interested in penises.

No penises allowed. It's like the one area where you can really just have the penis with the X over it. The last bastion of no penises is lesbianism. I don't understand the pressure on these women. Get out of our way. It's ridiculous. I mean, I'd love to look at a lesbian and say, but you're something phobic if you don't want to have sex with a penis that belongs to somebody declaring themselves a woman. Well, guess what? I don't want it. So screw you. I'm like, come on. How have we gotten to this place where like, you're phobic unless you feel about sexuality and having sex with somebody the way I tell you to. You're racist if you happen

to be born with this color skin. It's so reductive. All of this is so reductive and blind to one's full humanity. It's the fact that this ideology has managed to infiltrate every area of life. And I think it's blindsided a lot of people because this was previously seen as an issue that was only in academia, that only fringe crazy people thought these things. And this would never be an issue that would actually affect people in their day-to-day lives. And I have a chapter dedicated to talking about why social justice does not belong in academia, how it's actually destroying academia, how cancel culture has become such a problem within the sciences. And I would really encourage anyone who does not feel, who feels unsettled about the direction we're headed in to really speak out about it. Because I think people live in fear. And when you don't know what that's going

to feel like, it's worse. The apprehension is worse than actually going through it. And I've been mobbed multiple times on social media. I have people calling me all kinds of names. I always tell people the first mobbing is always the worst one. And then once you get through that, you're fine. And people can say whatever they want about you because you know who you are. People who love you and know you are not going to think those things about you. And that's really what matters. And living in fear is no way to live your life. Because at the end of the day, even if you say the right things, and you bow your head down and you go along with what they're telling you to say and do, they will turn on you. It's just a matter of time. 100% even if you're a minority woman like you are, who's of the left, who's dedicated her life to,

you know, researching issues that were considered verboten, and that were supposed to be empowering to women and to people who are marginalized turned on you in an instant. And you talk in the book about how you've been disowned, you've lost friends, you had to leave your profession, and yet you still, still feel that science will prevail. Why? Why do you feel optimistic that we're going to turn on this? I'm just generally an optimistic person in general, but it's also because the truth always comes out and you can try to suppress it, but reality is what it is. And in time, people will see that. They will see that these loopy ideas actually don't bear out. They're not based in anything real, even though people will claim that the so-called newest science backs up

these myths that I debunk in the book. It's only a matter of time before it's been shown, it's shown to be baseless. And so I do want to mention in the book, I do list all the studies I talk about so people if they're not convinced they can look them up themselves and learn more about these issues it's just right now I think where we are it's a very dark time and I think especially with the children when they start detransitioning when the lawsuits start happening that's really going to be a turning point and all of this ideology all all of this nonsense, especially that children are being targeted with, people are going to realize it's all going to collapse in on itself. When the children realize what a generation allowed to happen to them because they were

too afraid to speak up or say what's real, what we all know is real, which is we need to be careful here. We need more study. We need science to stay scientific and not part of the social justice movement. It's absurd. And we owe them. If adults are not going to fight for them, then who will? That's part of my problem is our kids really can't fight for themselves. We have to do it. And so Dennis Prager was on the show not long ago saying, look, there are three kinds of people in the world. There are the fighters, there are the assistants to the fighters,

and then there are the people who do nothing. And the only way forward is to be one or two. Like the time to sit back and do nothing is past because we're starting to lose this. And if you don't care enough about yourself to say something, then you got to care about the next generation who's really suffering as a result of this turn, this weird tidal wave of a turn.

You know, I know you pointed out that there was a letter signed by multiple scientists published in The Guardian, 54 academics, not long ago speaking out about this weird merger between social justice and science. Does that do any good? Does that create a lane for others to draft behind them and say, yeah, you know what, us too? Or did it not do anything? It definitely helped to draw attention to the problem. But I see what the result will be is academics are just going to continue leaving the field. I mean, it's gotten so much worse since I left three years ago. It's gotten so much worse than I ever thought it could get. And I don't regret my decision to leave

ever. And I think more academics, it's crazy for me since the end of gender has come out, the number of academics who have reached out to me to say they are similarly contemplating leaving the academy. They're thinking about leaving the sciences because they can't do their research properly. They don't see the point of being in an environment where you can't ask meaningful questions. So I see there also being repercussions for academia and research. And I hope that, you know, I just ask the public not to give up on science and not to give up on scientific papers and on the academy, because there will have to be a turning point. All the good people are going to leave and it's going to need to be rebuilt. But I really believe that's the only way forward, because science is the only way we can really

have an accurate understanding or an approximation of the truth. And to know that you are not alone. You know, the number of letters you've gotten privately while people condemn you publicly, I know, has been overwhelming. Same for me. I get tons of notes from people saying, we're with you, we're with you, keep on fighting. They're afraid to say it publicly, but they're so grateful when someone does. And I think if you're someone thinking about speaking out, you need to remember you're not alone. You've got millions of people on your side who are afraid just like you are.

You know, look at that woman at Smith College who spoke out, you know, sort of mild-mannered Jody. But she took to the microphone and she said her piece and she continues to do so. And she's protected by the law from getting fired and saying what she feels about the social engineering going on there. Um, listen, before I go, I just want to ask you a couple of quick questions. Cause I know you're up against it. Um, quickly for parents worried about, let's say their daughters who find themselves in a group of friends who one by one are declaring themselves trans. What should they do? child saying, oh, maybe I'm a trans boy too. I think it really comes down to the relationship you have with your child and if they feel that they can turn to you with whatever they're going through and to talk to you about the things that they are struggling with. That's the most

important thing. I mean, I guess I would say to try and limit the amount of time that they spend with that particular friend, but it can be very difficult, especially now with kids all having their own phones and, and, and not being monitored in some cases. I mean, kids will find a way around it no matter what, and especially if they feel that something is, is forbidden, that makes it all the more appealing to them. So yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing would be just to keep the communication open and don't feel pressured to go along with something that you're not okay with. The book is called The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society. And it's really well-timed everywhere. Can they

get it everywhere now? Is it, is it available? It is available. Um, so yes, the audio book is read by me. Um, the hardcover and ebook and audio book are all available on Amazon. You can get it Barnes and Noble, Indigo, pretty much everywhere you buy books. Yeah, I was going to say something else there, but I won't in reference to something you mentioned earlier. Target. Well, I know. Target tried to ban it. It's still not in Target stores.

They tried to ban it from the online store, yours and Abigail's. And then your Twitter army, and I was one of them, stood up and said, this is baloney. Stop it. And magically it reappeared. Well, no, I want people to read it. And even if you don't agree with it, read the damn thing and figure it out for yourself. The more somebody tells me I can't read something,

the more I want to read it, you know? So this one was worth it either way. Get ready for 2021. We can go in fighting. Yes, exactly right. I'm with you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you so much, Megan.

Today's episode was brought to you in part by Legacy Box, the world's largest digitizer of home movies and photos. Go to LegacyBox.com slash MK for 60% off, 6-0% off while supplies last. I want to tell you that coming up later this week, we're going to have a full politics show for you so you can get all the latest on where we stand and what's going to happen next and what to expect over the next month or so where things continue to get crazy, right? I mean, I know Rich Lowry sort of says, what I do is I just assume the worst is going to happen and then I'm always right. He'll be here along with Eric Erickson. We're going to have Andrew Sullivan later this week, so I'm psyched to talk to him. He'll be fun because

he's attacked me publicly and I've attacked him publicly and he's more on the left and I'm a little bit more on the right but I respect the guy. He's a great writer. He's against cancel culture and he's been really strong and if I could do with a pen what that guy can do

I would be really proud of myself and I'd probably be in a different medium than I am right now. Anyway, check the show out later this week. You can do that by subscribing and that way we will just send it right to your inbox so easy. We wake up in

the morning and they're all be like good morning bob go ahead and click on my face so subscribe and then download and rate five stars por favor and a review is always nice love to hear from you guys and so happy you decided to spend your morning with us see you soon thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seed Ventures.