The Megyn Kelly Show - (Former Father) Jonathan Morris and his wife Kaitlyn, on Faith, Marriage, and Glorifying God | Ep. 42

Episode Date: December 25, 2020

Megyn Kelly is joined by her friend and former priest, (Former Father) Jonathan Morris, and his wife Kaitlyn, to discuss his path in and out of the priesthood, his faith and glorifying God, meeting Kaitlyn, marriage and kids, Christmas and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, it's Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and Merry Christmas. Today on the program, a perfect couple of guests. We've got Jonathan Morris and Caitlin Morris. Jonathan Morris is better known to a lot of the folks who listen to this show as Father Jonathan, now formerly Father Jonathan Morris. He's a Fox News contributor. That's where I first met him. And in May of 2019, he announced he was leaving the priesthood.

And shortly thereafter, it did not overlap. Or did it? We'll ask. No, it didn't. He met Caitlin. And we'll take it from there when you meet them in a minute. But the story of how it all happened is absolutely fascinating. And we just thought it would be a perfect couple to bring on this time of year just to to celebrate, yes, God, choices in life, independence, and love, ultimately love. But first, Black Rifle Coffee Company is a veteran-owned coffee company serving premium coffee to people who love America. Veteran CEO and founder Evan Hafer spent over seven years on the ground overseas with U.S. Special Forces and as a CIA contractor. Evan even modified his gun trucks during the invasion of Iraq to grind coffee anywhere. Commitment. Coffee's more than a business for him. It's a true passion. Every morning while

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there's so much to go over with you. So I'm gonna I'm gonna start with you, Jonathan. So Caitlin, stand by. Because I got to get your story on record. Jonathan, I can't call you Jonathan. I I've only ever called you Father Jonathan, so I can't do that now. So Janice Dean and I decided we're going to call you FFJ. You used to be FJ, now you're formerly Father. So FFJ, that's going to be my interim term for you and I'll try to grow into Jonathan. That's fine. You can call me whatever you like. And that's part of our history. That's part of my history. And I'm so glad that this history is connected with yours over so many years. You have been such a beautiful friend to me and counselor and just amazing presence in my life. So I'm thrilled to have you and to be talking about your joy. So you grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I love the story of how you first became a priest.

I remember sitting in a little restaurant with you and Doug years ago. I mean, I don't know, it must have been 13 years ago or so, 12 years ago. Yeah. And you were telling me this story, and I couldn't believe how it happened. So before we get to this moment, did you grow up very religious? I would say my parents tried to raise me very religious. That was that. Certainly a religious home.

But at the same time, I kind of instinctively rejected that during my, especially during my high school years. And so, like, do you have brothers and sisters? I know you have at least one sister. I have six siblings. So yeah, big Catholic family, seven, seven kids. Mostly grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and then also in Akron in Cleveland, Ohio. So maybe typical Catholic, large Catholic family of years past that would maybe at least encourage or be open to one of the children becoming a priest or a nun. But certainly that was not encouraged, and I had no idea or any interest in that growing up at least halfway through college. You know, it's funny because my mom and dad,

my mom is very Catholic and my dad was very Catholic and even my stepdad is very Catholic. But my mom too tried to do the Catholic thing when she first married my dad. You know, she saved herself to marriage. And then as she puts it, she had two babies in two years and she said, forget that. Got herself some birth control.

And I came along five years later. But there's so many big Catholic families in part for that reason. Yeah. Well, and thank God that, you know, five years later you came along. That's right. As I like to remind my brother and sister, I was the only one they really wanted. I was the only planned. Okay.

All right. So you grew up a Catholic family and, you know, maybe there's some, did you know there might be some hope that you would enter the priesthood one day? No, the only first memory, Megan, that I have of being somehow attracted to the priesthood or like a kind of a noble calling was, um, I remember my parents had a priest friend who was like this traveling missionary come and celebrate mass at our house. I have no idea why they did that. But anyway, he came, it was like in the living room. I don't know if he was asking for money or if he would like, I have no idea what, but he left in the closet, his chalice and the wafers,

what we would call unconsecrated hosts, right? And I remember, first of all, being fascinated by him as a person, that he would talk about his missionary work and traveling. I don't know if it was the travel that was interesting to me, or I think it was more than that. It was the travel in order to do something great in his life. And he was pitching that to us and telling us about it. I found it fascinating. But then some like very late night, I snuck down into that closet and I saw the chalice and I saw those wafers and I had, this is a confession, Megan. Well, I can't say if you've been to confession to me or not, but this is my confession to you. I went up into that closet and I took some of the wafers down and I ate them. I don't know. I felt like, I don't know. I was like testing it out or something. So to answer your question, I had very little interest in priesthood or in

anything like that until halfway through college. And I can tell you that about that. Yes. I love this part. So it reminds me of the Saturday Night Fever line, my girlfriend, she loves to taste the communion wafer's father, which really nobody ever says. I mean, that's the truth, but you were a different story. Okay. So you get to college. What was your major in college when you first got there? I studied business. Business administration, marketing. You think you're going a different route.

And then tell us what happened. Very different. Well, I ended up rooming with a friend of mine who was from Los Angeles. And he said he told me that he was thinking about being a priest. Now this was, this was a Catholic college. And so there was a kind of an underlining Catholic culture to it, but we were part of kind of like the bad boys fraternity. You know, we used to say, yeah, we'll go to confession if anybody drinks more than X number of beers. Okay. And X number of beers. And X number should have been XX. It was a way too high number. So we were not really on the path towards religious, certainly religious conversion or even

real attachment. But my roommate said that he had this profoundly religious spiritual experience in high school. He turned away from some of his bad ways, and he was thinking about being a priest. But then every – so he was a year ahead of me in college. Every freshman class that came in of girls, he would start dating them, and he would forget the idea of celibate priesthood very quickly. And I would say, Rick, what happened? I thought you were thinking about this. And all I could think of, and I don't know if this was God or if this was my upbringing, I have no idea. But I said to him, Rhett, there will be consequences whether you choose to go the route of priesthood and missionary or not. So don't just go with what you feel, try to decide what you should

do. And so the two of us went to a seminary to visit. Seminaries where guys were thinking about being a priest, go and study. And I went with him to make sure he went. He ended up saying, yes, I'm staying. He stayed for seven days. He took off. But in those seven days, I visited him and one thing led to another. I ended up staying for 26 years. So when you said, I'm going to do it, and he said, I'm not, what was that moment like? Well, I don't know if you might have been thinking about my girlfriend, to be honest, because he left. I stayed. I broke up with my girlfriend of two years. I called him. I'm saying I'm staying. I said, Rhett, do me a favor. Take care of Tasha. Oh, boy. And he said, I got your back, buddy. They are married and they have eight kids.

No. Were you in the wedding? I was not invited to the wedding. It was too soon. Oh, I was going to say, if they had waited just a couple of years, you could have officiated it. That's hilarious. What a fun story they have too for how they first got together. Okay. So now, so at that point in your life, when you decided I'm going to do this, how old were you? So I was 20, 21 when I first left the seminary. Okay. And so at that point you mentioned you had Tasha, so you had had girlfriends. Yes. 21 year old guy, Catholic or not. I'm just trying to see where you're going. I'm trying to see where you're going. You know where I'm going're going you know where i'm going you know exactly i know when you said you had tasha you had girlfriend i'm trying no she's trying to i didn't i didn't mean had in like

my wife is my wife is on this call i meant you had experienced a girlfriend in your world romance so beautiful so was it hard to like step away from you know i mean whatever had happened there i think it would be hard to sort of say i don't want that anymore because of course the catholic priesthood requires you to reject that it was hard it was very hard and i ended up joining, this is probably a good topic for a whole nother podcast, but I ended up joining a religious order that was, I would call it a cult. Founded by a super, super charismatic guy who ended up becoming very friendly with Pope John Paul II, ended up from this little teensy tiny town in Mexico, he ended up founding and then growing this religious order that swept the world, bringing together some of the most, I think, talented young men,

the fastest growing order in the Catholic Church, It was called the Legionaries of Christ. One thing, you know, fast forward 15 years, 20 years, really, I had been in this the whole time. It was discovered that this man was a total fraud,

that he had multiple families around the world, that he had abused seminarians, that he had children, that he had abused his own children. It's a long story. His name was Father Marcial, Marcial, that he had children, that he had abused his own children. It's a long story. His name was Father Marcial, Marcial, Marcial. So they used very heavy recruiting tactics. I remember one time with my roommate in college, they're talking to one of these recruiters,

and they looked at me. They were supposedly recruiting him, but they looked at me. They were supposedly recruiting him, but they looked at me and they said, Jonathan, you were created by God from all eternity to be a member of the legionaries of Christ. That left a huge impression. Because it was a reinforcement over and over of you're in the right place. You're doing the right thing. This is your highest and best calling. That's right. So wait, when you say you were with them, you were with them for 20 years or just 20 years later, he was exposed? So I was with them for, I think, 15 years. And then

when he was exposed, I quickly asked for a, basically to be dismissed from that order, to be let go, and I joined the Archdiocese of New York under the great welcome and leadership of Timothy Dolan, Cardinal Dolan of New York. Where were you when you were with the legionaries? Where were you? out of that order when everything was falling apart. It still exists, believe it or not. And a lot of great people involved with it, but the order is rotten from within, in my opinion. And then I came to New York. And that's when you came to New York. Okay. That's when we met. So you're over there in Rome and you, this is when we first met when you were covering the death of Pope John Paul II, right? Yeah. So I would have been in Rome over there. Um, and then I came back to New York and I've been in New York for 10 years. Okay. And is it true you were actually with the Pope when he died? Not, not when he died. I was with him personally, I think the last time on Easter Sunday of that same year that he died. So I walked up and I was delivering this gift to him and they

brought me in and sat me down at his Easter lunch table. So it was a pretty amazing moment for me. I mean, is that even just like as a lowly Catholic, I can't imagine what it would feel like to be next to him in particular, Pope John Paul II. I mean, as a priest, did you feel, was it electric? What was it like? Yes, it was electric. At the same time, Megan, it's interesting looking back on it because he was one who was complicit, I don't think intentionally, but I think he was complicit in allowing this really monster of a guy, Father Maciel, to dupe him and all of us. So here was a very, I think, a very holy, saintly man who's actually been made a saint in the Catholic church.

He's been canonized. But he, I think, allowed himself to be duped. And there was not good management, I can tell you that. Wow, yeah. You know, so it's really, I have mixed feelings. Certainly, I felt electrified being with him. At the same time, I hope I'm not too cynical right now. But I say, I wish you would have done something differently. and you're getting hired at Fox News, you were, so for our audience who doesn't know you, FFJ is a very good looking man. He is a very good looking, he's the best looking priest.

We used to call you Father What a Waste. I don't know if you knew that. Did you know that? I read it in your book. That's a plug. That's a plug. So yeah, we used to call him Father What a Waste, you know, and you know why,

um, you were like an instant celebrity because you were this priest who could really explain what we were watching and we would always cover, um, you know, the, the Pope's deaths or the, the new Pope who was coming in. And you could just explain it in terms that people would understand. You were always incredibly affable, very good communicator. And this is why not only did CNN hire you, Fox news hired you, you became a Wall Street Journal contributor. You got a Sirius XM radio show on the Catholic Channel. You were featured in the movie The Irishman for like a while. And you became what I think is the closest thing I've seen to a celebrity priest.

So I wonder if you ever got a hard time for that from your other priests. Caitlin will be brought in in a minute. But, you know, I think she will say, yes, they were freaking jealous. Okay. That's what she'll say. At the same time, I received a lot of love. Is she there? Caitlin, are you there?

I am here. Hi, Megan. What's the truth? What's. Is she there? Caitlin, are you there? I am here. Hi, Megan. What's the truth? What's the truth, lady? Hi, good to hear you. Oh, no, I just think that sometimes it's hard for people when they see lots of good things happening to other people and maybe not them. It's hard for them to celebrate with you.

So I think for John, there's a lot of great things that happened to him. Even, you know, this was before we met and maybe some people saw it as competition, I guess. That's what I've tried to tell him. Because even when you go into the priesthood, you're still a human being. And you have all the same positive and negative attributes of being a human being as anybody else. And jealousy is one of them. Yes. Yes.

It's a green, it's a green eyed monster. There were so many people who supported me, including Cardinal Timothy Dolan, whom you know, and who encouraged me to continue up doing the media. And I hope I did it with an honest desire to just communicate what I believed. And I still believe about God and about purpose in life and about all of those things.

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I've interviewed him a couple of times. And after my acrimonious departure from NBC, he wrote me the nicest handwritten letter. And I mean, as a Catholic, when you get a note like that from Cardinal Dolan, it's like, oh, my God. Except there was no return address on there. I was like, I really struggled to figure out how to thank him. And it's not like Dear Santa, North Pole. You know, you can't just say like Cardinal Dolan, St. Pat's. Anyway, he's a standup guy. And Jonathan, I want the audience to know, you too, not only did you baptize all three of my kids and Janice Dean's kids, but there was a very tumultuous time in my life when

I was in Cleveland, Ohio for the Republican National Convention when Trump got the nomination. And it was the same day that somebody leaked my name to the Drudge Report as cooperating with the investigation into Roger Ailes. Previously, I just hadn't said anything publicly and people knew there was pressure on me to say something. They wanted me to say something in his defense, but I wouldn't. But people didn't know that I was actually somebody who was coming forward against him behind the scenes. And it got leaked to the Drudge Report. And it was a big, big news story. And it was certainly a huge news story at Fox. And I was hauled up in my hotel room, not talking to anyone. I was afraid. I felt like a caged animal in there because now I had no allies.

I didn't know who had, I mean, Fox was very divided at the time over this and, you know, Janice knew my story, but nobody else knew the story. And it was just very scary. And I got a knock on my door and it was you. And you came in, you held my hand. We prayed. You didn't, you weren't looking for anything other than to be supportive. And I will never forget that moment. You just held my hand and we prayed. It was the only thing that made me feel better. Megan, let me do a little revisionist history here, but I think it's actually true. So I did not knock on your door.

Okay, that would have been very creepy. And you would not have answered your door. I didn't mean it as a surprise. So we texted and let me tell you from my perspective. So imagine this. So we were texting and we didn't share anything about what you were going. I knew what you were going through and et cetera. And I just wanted to know that I was there for you as a friend and as a priest. And so we, we agreed to meet,

right. And you said, don't the only place I can't even get out of my room. Like you said, you felt like a cage animal. Like I can't come out. So the only place to meet is here. And here I am thinking, right. The audience can try to picture this. So here, Megyn Kelly is now big time in the news in a story that has to do with sex. It has to do with abuse. It has to do with all sorts of stuff. And here, a priest is going up to her bedroom in a hotel. Okay.

So this is what's going through my mind. I'm going, okay, you want me to meet you there? Okay. Should I go? So here are my two choices, Megan. I never told you this. I'm telling you this for the first time. Do I like, it's, I think this is August, right?

So I'm like, how do I go up like and wrap my, like cover up my collar so that nobody knows that it's a priest going up to your hotel room? And I'm like, no, that might be worse. So they might recognize me and I'm hiding. And so something's going to be released in which a video of me going up hiding my collar. So I just said I'm going up, hiding my car. So I said, I'm going up. No,

it does not look good. So I just decided to go up, um, just, you know, making a, a pastoral visit and all went well, but,

um, you were a trooper there, Megan. And I think you tried to live, um, honestly and truthfully and it all worked out. Wow. Thank you. I mean, I've said before, and it's true that I think the same ethical compass

that led me to make the decisions I made there and throughout the rest of my life were in large part thanks to the Catholic church. I mean, I'm not a particularly religious person. I, I, I'm not very good about going to church on Sundays, but the imprint that was made on me from going every Sunday and going through all of the sacraments, you know, that I have when just religious education with my mom, you know, that my mom put me in, um, it mattered. It made a difference in my life. And so even if you don't wind up, you know, particularly observant, I do think it's a worthwhile exercise because that ethical

imprint winds up mattering in life. Absolutely true. But Megan, think about your kids though. This is like, I'm just good. This is like hard. This is hard podcast stuff. You have to put that imprint on them, right? So somehow an imprint was made on you, right? Because of going every Sunday or whatever. And I think there's different ways. And I'm trying to figure this out myself. It's much easier for me to go to mass on Sunday, every Sunday as a priest. Now I have to make a decision to do it when nobody is expecting me to show up. Aha.

Welcome to our world. Yes, it's different. And like sitting through boring homilies and like bad music. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. He's crossed over. He's on our team now. Yes. You've got to be armchair quarterbacking. Are you not? You're like, pick it up for the love of right now. Oh, it's rough, especially my wonderful wife, who we'll talk to in a minute, grew up evangelical and like they have great music and they have great preaching and so i'm trying to explain to her caitlin i love i mean what i'm going here not because of that but because of the sacraments and because i you know i believe god is

present in a special way and she's like but the music is really bad and this guy can't talk. Caitlin, is there any chance you're going to convert him to evangelical? Well, he did go with me to my mom's church, an evangelical church in Pennsylvania that has like a rock band and there's, you know, PowerPoint presentation and there's props and everything. And you get coffee before you walk in for service and you mingle and and john's like what is this he's so confused but he was trying so hard to sing along and it was it was yeah it made my mom very happy he got major points there with my mom that sunday because he went to church that would be such a huge twist to this story i mean like i i'm sort

of rooting for it um okay so so back to back to, back to you and your, and your struggle. So you get to some point in the, in your time as a priest where it, I mean, it must have occurred to you like the bird saying, I'm not sure this is for me. How long into your tenure as a priest was that? I would say almost right from the beginning, Megan, as sad as that sounds. And it's not all sad. Keep in mind that I did join that religious order that turned out to be a cult. So there were things that were not right. It was super strict, super rigid, very top-down control, very little personal freedom. And so at some level, even though I was very young and very idealistic and noble,

and that's why I wanted to do hard things, difficult things, including celibacy, and be a part of like this most strict order. Something, I knew something wasn't right, but I had gone in so deeply, I think, culturally, socially, and then I became a more and more public figure. They made me a superior, if they call it, in the religious order. So I was like leading other guys and then i started working um i worked with mel gibson and jim caviezel in the film of the passion of the christ and it became kind of public through that and then with cnn and fox and all this stuff and so i felt and this is i think this is a human experience not just mine it, I don't want to let people down. I don't want to let the people's expectations of me down. Especially because I saw that I was doing some good.

And this is the conflict, right? I'm doing some good and yet it doesn't feel right for me. There's another layer of it. Whenever you're going to leave a profession that you've been attached to for a long time, I think it's hard because your identity gets wrapped up in said profession, even if it's not something where you're doing a ton of good, like lawyering. So that's there. But with you, it is an extra layer because people have this special relationship with their priest or their minister or their rabbi. You're up on a pedestal. They look up to you. They rely on you for life advice and religious guidance. And I think the pressure must have been especially immense on you not to leave that post and in

essence, put yourself first, you know, which is what most people do their whole lives, but a priest, maybe not. Yeah. And I think there was some, oh, you said it exactly right, Megan, no doubt, like being put up on a pedestal, all of that. And some of it I think is just really wrong and the church needs to go through major convergence, transformation from it. Some of it was my own fault for allowing myself to actually believe that that was true and that I was special. And I think I'm special because I'm an individual created by God out of love, but not because I had a certain position or even that I was ordained. I was different,

but not special, so to speak. But I found that, and maybe we can talk about this later, in my new work that I'm doing now professionally as an executive coach and working in leadership development, a kind of a solution to that, of that quandary, right, of wanting to do good, but at the same time, recognizing that I have to take care of myself. And I believe deeply that if I'm flourishing as a human being, I am glorifying God. That makes sense, right? If I'm flourishing as a human being, I am glorifying God. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think most of us on the outside feel that. And I just think there's so much pressure on someone like you who makes a noble choice to serve God in a special way to just always do it in that way.

So I'm happy for you as I was when you told me you were leaving, that you recognized you needed something else and were brave enough to act on it. I'm sure not everyone in the priesthood felt the same. Did you hear from any of them? Did you get, did anybody give you a hard time? Yeah, some did. Some people, you know, cut me off.

Some people wrote articles about me as if I was like, trust me, I know that you've experienced this 10 times of what I have. People wrote articles about me as if they never knew me or as if I were not a real person. They just commented on you like you were some sort of object in the room that had no feelings and no sentiments and never even tried to reach out to me to understand or anything. But that's part of the price you paid for being in the public. So I get it. I always, it took me years to realize this, but I did come to the point of realizing there is, in my case, there's Megyn Kelly, the me, and then there's Megyn Kelly, the brand, which is totally fair game for

criticism. And whenever I read stuff about myself I don't like, I have to remind myself, that's the brand that I've put out there. Not everyone knows or cares to know my heart and who I really am. So you can't take it as though they do. Right. You just got to remember that that's FJ, the brand, they don't, they don't really know anything about you. Right. The people who did were rooting for you. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So did you have to tell, did you have to tell Cardinal Dolan, you know, I mean, I know he gave you like a little time to think about it, but did you have to walk in there one day and say, CD, I'm out of here. Peace out. I did. I did get, got to the point. It was probably two o'clock in the morning when I sent him the email, um, because I wanted to put it all on paper before I talked to him because I didn't want to be convinced otherwise. Right. And so I put it all down.

I spent time thinking about it. But it was two in the morning. And then I took that same email that I sent to him. And I forwarded to all of my siblings, not to my mom and dad because I didn't want to put them in their grave. But I sent it to all of my siblings and said, this is what I'm going to do. And I basically asked for a sabbatical. And I told him my whole story. I told him what was going on in my life. And it was a shock to him because I was very close to him and he had given me a lot of responsibility. I was running two parishes in the Bronx at the time. I was overseeing as co-chairman of 14 schools in the Bronx. I was doing a lot and it was hard, but he was so good to me. He said, Jonathan, I think I have a person who could fill in for you.

Don't wait until next month or two months from now to take a sabbatical. Leave this weekend. And I did. Wow. He wasn't disappointed at all in you? He was. But I got to the point that I was okay with people being disappointed. But people's not the same as

wait, Colonel Dolan. I mean, that must've been hard. Yeah, but it's still other people's expectations. Right. And that's, that's the point I think. And they can, they can have different, my mom's expectations are higher than your expectations of me. I could deal with Megan Kelly's expectations of me, even though that wasn't hard either. I baptized your three kids. That's right. Right. And you were like, I don't want to know if that's still legitimate. Yeah. I do just want to make perfectly sure we're still good. It is. is so and i think so i had to deal with all of that right and the the priests who i was living with and like like leading the two parishes the everyone on fox news the management at fox the um all the people who you know listen to or read my books

all of and then cardinal doan. But I'm not saying, I'm just saying everybody has that in their life, right? The expectations of your spouse, the expectations of your children, expectations of your boss. So who is the toughest one to tell? Cardinal Dolan, I would say. More than your parents? Yeah. Yeah. So they came around to it. Yeah. Because in the end, parents, think about your kids, Megan, right? No matter what they tell you, like they're your kids, right? Cardinal Dolan, you know, was my boss and a friend,

but a boss. Yeah. And you were on the inner circle. I mean, he had really taken you in, uh, and promoted you and believed in you. So it's, it's even tougher there, but you know, what everybody wants to know is, cause I know you've said publicly, I, this is how you put it in your letter that you released in May of 2019. I've struggled for years with my vocation and with the commitments that the Catholic priesthood demands, especially not being able to marry and have a family. In response to which everyone said, even though you said my decision's not about an existing relationship, but everybody was like, he's got a girlfriend or a boyfriend. None of us knew. I mean, we know.

How would we know? But that's what everybody thought, that you had started a relationship and that's why you were leaving. But was that true? No. Oh, it was true what I read, what I wrote. I did not have a relationship that I was pursuing in any way or that I was hoping to continue in any way. That was absolutely true. You didn't have like even a dalliance before no i mentioned um very publicly too you know and i told this cardinal golan and i mentioned this

um with um megan um sorry martha mccollum show you know i said um part of the manipulation by the religious order that I was a part of is at one point, even before I was ordained, I did have, as you say, a parlance or a relationship with someone that was fleeting. And I went and I said, I do not want to be ordained a priest. I, this is not for me. This is not. And they, instead of saying, okay, they were like, no, that's okay. Don't worry about it. That never happened. And they promoted me two years ahead, and they made me a superior of the order. It just shows the manipulation that was there. So yes, I struggled. And I put that out, think, publicly. I didn't do this general confession, which I don't think is helpful or necessary by anyone. No, but that was 20 years earlier, and you weren't officially ordained. I was thinking when you were getting ready to jump off the diving board and say, okay, I'm out of here, there wasn't... I just feel like there would be like, maybe I'll just try it first before I take this big leap. That didn't happen.

Yeah, no, Caitlin, Caitlin will be will be brought in soon. Sure. But we had, we had no, you know, when I left, and I asked for the sabbatical, I was 100% totally free to still consider coming back. And Cardinal Dolan was encouraging me to come back. And he just basically said, take it slowly, take it slowly. And I did. But as soon as I left, I basically knew deep down, this is something that if Pope Francis gives me a dispensation, I'm going to take it. But I took time. I took four months and went back, lived with my parents. Imagine at the age of 46 years old, going back and living with your parents and not knowing what you're going to do for a job, for anything.

And also you had to be a little afraid, I mean, that you weren't going to have any moves with the ladies, right? Did you worry about that at all? Like, am I going to be smooth? Oh, no, I didn't know about that in the sense that I listen. No worries. No, it's not that, but I knew that. And I mean, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't 23. I was, I recognized that this was a serious thing that I also saw so many marriages struggle. I knew it wasn't like I was leaving the priesthood for some fairy tale. I knew that it wasn't easy. I knew that dating was, especially at my age, what am I going to do? Either date somebody who is divorced and remarried or somebody who's 22 or somebody who's 58

and who's never been married or Caitlin, who was perfect. And I didn't know if I would find that person, but I did. All right, more with Father Jonathan. I mean, Jonathan and Caitlin in just one second. And this is the segment of the interview where I'm going to ask them all the inappropriate, awkward questions that you know you want answered and it will deliver. But first, before we get to that, let's talk about Jamarini Skin Research. Jamarini Skin Research is a recognized leader and innovator in skincare. I myself have used these products and they are easy to use. They keep my skin feeling refreshed and hydrated

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So go to JanMarini.com to find locations near you, or you can purchase directly from their website. That'll be easy. Just go to JanMarini.com again, J-A-N-M-A-R-I-N-I. Plus they've got great, great holiday time offerings. So if you're looking at the new year thinking, what can I do for a boost? Check her out. And you always get two day free shipping. Transform your skin with Jan Marini. Okay. Before we get back to our guests, I want to bring you a segment we call real talk here on the Megyn Kelly show.

And that's where we're just talking about anything that we think is interesting. Well, listen, it being Christmas, I wanted to tell you about two Christmas movies that I never miss. And in case you haven't seen them, one of them, you have one of them. You might not. You still have time, right? Because we've got today to just loaf around and watch movies and maybe a little football, but just take it easy.

Okay, one is It's a Wonderful Life, and you've seen that, but you may not have seen it the way we watch it. My family and I treat this movie as the Rocky Horror Picture Show. We all get our Santa's hats on. We get bells. Everybody has bells. We get salt. We get hats on. We get bells. Everybody has bells. We get salt. We get bread and we get ready and we sit in front of it.

And whenever Clarence comes on, we ring our bells. Whenever George does he or his friend Sam, Sam, whatever his name is, does his hee haw, we do it. Whenever Mr. Potter comes on, we, and then when Mr. Marini has the new house, we throw salt and bread and it's super fun. It's just like a, it's like a fun way of enjoying a classic movie and getting your kids into George Bailey and his life. Cause who doesn't love that movie? Although on the young ones, it's a little long and you know, this will make them love it. It's just super fun. And my second suggestion to you is Christmas in Connecticut. So Christmas in Connecticut is a 1947, I think, Barbara Stanwyck

film where Barbara Stanwyck was young and it's black and white and it's one of her lesser known films, but it's this classic holiday film that will make you feel like you've done a little time travel. They've got the horse drawn carriages in the snowy meadow and the way she dresses is so beautiful and elegant. And the farm that she's allegedly at, uh, in Connecticut over the holidays is perfection. And you could watch the whole thing with a sound down, frankly, because it's really just the visuals of the movie that I don't know, just make you feel incredibly good, especially on Christmas day. So I never miss putting that on. And I hope if you do it, you enjoy it too. Back to Jonathan and Caitlin. That's the perfect point at which to bring in

your now beautiful wife, Caitlin. As you know, still, she's with us. And so, Caitlin, welcome back. Just so the audience knows, you're from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. You went to NYU, majored in journalism, and were, at the time, you met FFJ, and now are a successful producer and booker at Good Morning America. You work for ABC News. Yes, I work at ABC in the investigative unit now.

So when I met John, I worked at Good Morning America. And when Pope Benedict resigned and they flew like 20, 30 people over from New York to cover this. And I was one of them. And so we were all in Rome for weeks covering the conclave that was 2013 right 2013 yeah okay so you met him you met him first in Rome yeah now what were do you remember having any sort of reaction to him when you met him first no I just think like you know he was there was I've never seen so many priests in my entire life running around Rome everyone was a priest and growing up

evangelical I just you don't like go out and drink wine with your pastor so it was just like a whole different kind of world over there but I met him when I was trying to book all the cardinals on all the morning shows right so that was like the competition and everybody wanted Cardinal Dolan on and so I would that was one of the people I would go to saying, can we please have an interview with him tomorrow morning with George Stephanopoulos or one of our anchors? So that's how I first was introduced to then Father Jonathan. Is it funny for you now, looking back at those moments where you were soliciting him as a booker to think, you know, if somebody could have tapped you on the shoulder and told you, you're going to wind up married to him. Can you imagine?

I know it's so crazy, Megan. This whole life I'm living is just, it is almost too good to be true. I say that to John all the time, but I am, I feel so blessed. Like every day I wake up so happy. I know there's a lot of heartache right now with what's happening in 2020 and the pandemic, but we have managed to find such joy and happiness in our family. And so much is rooted in him and what he's brought into my life. So yeah, it is so crazy. No, someone had told me that seven years ago. I would have laughed. I'm feeling it just listening to you because what I'm picturing is the couple I saw walking on air at your wedding. So I can feel it even though we can't see each other. All right. So have you ever seen the Thorn Birds? No, you asked me that at the reception. And I was like, I haven't seen that, but I've seen Fleabag. And so we've watched that together,

but I haven't seen the thornbag you still have not watched it i mean i you you now listen he he never left the priesthood i'm sorry spoiler but um he you you're like his the maggie to his father ralph every woman in america when they watch thornburns was totally rooting for him to leave the priesthood and be with his girl okay so no thorn burns no thorn burns okay no so the next time you saw him was when after 2013 um so he asked me on a date we went on a date on my birthday this is after he had made the announcement he left and he did his interview on fox and then i heard from him and he asked me out to lunch. And so just like out of the blue,

you heard from him out of the blue, like you saw him on Fox. Well, so I had, so when he made his announcement in May, um, he had at the bottom of it, you know,

for members of the media, you can reach me at this email address. I won't be responding, but you know, this is, he was trying to traffic it ahead of time. Right. And so I, because I'm a booker at heart, let's be honest. I won't be responding, but you know, this is, he was trying to traffic it ahead of time. Right. And so I, because I'm a booker at heart, let's be honest. I was like, okay, I'll reach out to him. Dear father, Jonathan, do you remember? Probably don't remember me, but

I met you in Rome and I just wanted to say congratulations on your next steps. And we're all cheering for you. Best wishes, Caitlin Fulmer. But was that, was that as a booker? Was that like genuinely wishing him goodwill? Or was that like, well, he's free now. I'm wishing him goodwill. I'm gay. I mean, and listen, I spent my, all my life single. I was going to probably be destined to be a news nun, basically, you know, working. And I know, I knew you would get that, that reference. I was like, don't say that. No one will understand that. But I was, like, I was just jumping on flames and traveling and that was my life and that was my love. And so, yeah, when I sent that but I was like I was just jumping on planes and traveling and that was my

life and that was my love and so yeah when I sent that I mean I'm not gonna lie and say okay I was just doing it to try to book him on the view or something no I was just genuinely interested too in hearing what his next steps were because when I read that too I thought oh that's interesting I wonder what what's the real deal here where is he going and it turns out he really did just want something new and he followed it. He had the guts to do it. And so it was exciting. Then I got to meet him and have lunch.

So how did he how did he respond to that email or what did he do? No, he didn't. He did not respond. So I was like, OK, that's fine. I'm sure he's getting a thousand emails. You're like, no, it's no problem. He's going to hell anyway. So it's really.

So, so, but, so, but I was in, um, he found me on Twitter. That's what it was. So I guess like maybe a week after I sent that email, I get a direct message, a DM in my, in my inbox. He slid into my DM and his line was, he was like, Hey, um, Jonathan Moore is here. I don't know if you saw the news. I just left the priesthood. I'm so happy. How are you? And his line was, he was like, hey, Jonathan Moore is here. I don't know if you saw the news. I just left the priesthood. I'm so happy.

How are you? And so I think I have it memorized because I've shared it with my girlfriend so many times. John, honey, you're oddly quiet right now. So anyhow, I learned to let my wife speak. This is spectacular. Wait, so I just left the priesthood. Did he say anything like, I've got the blessing of Cardinal Dole? Did he say anything like, we're going to be good with the big guy up above?

No, it was pretty, it was like three lines. He was straight to the voice. Like, I left the priesthood. I'm so happy. How are you? And I was like, oh my goodness. And so my initial response is, okay, I sent you an email and you didn't read it. So that was my response.

He's like, oh, actually, this is the email. You should send it to this one. So he has like a secret email account. So then I sent it to that. And then that's what started the whole, oh, let's grab lunch. And so that's what happened. He took me out. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Let's back up. Wait, let's back up. Jonathan, have you received that email? Did you see that email that Caitlin sent you? No, no, I did not. And honestly, in two days, I think I received over 25,000 emails from the craziest people. And then there were normal people like Caitlin who sent me emails, most of whom were just reacting in a very, very gracious way about my decision. But no, I did not see that email.

Wait a minute, so it was pure coincidence? And I did not ask her out. It was not a date. I was asking her to lunch. Okay. Those of us in the real world know what you were asking for. We know it was a date. Don't try to fool us. Do not try to fool us. Wait a minute. Are you telling me without having seen her email, you just spontaneously reached out to her? It's, I mean, you know, somebody might call that divine intervention. I mean, it's, it's amazing. Providence. Providence. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't even know. I could have been married with 10 kids living in Connecticut with a picket fence. He had no idea. He hasn't, I haven't seen him in seven years or six years since then.

So, I mean, but I guess he kind of assumed. Back to you, Caitlin, back to you. So every single friend must've been like, holy.

Right. Like I can't, I do swear, but I can't do it in front of. So I know I actually thought about too. I shouldn't do that, but I know what you're going to say. Yeah.

They totally thought the same thing. This is perfect. Were they excited? Yeah, because it's like a great looking. He was what, 46 at the time? He's 47 now, so 46. So a great looking, never before married, 46-year-old, ethical, moral, outstanding member of the community who's got, you know,

outside of being a priest, great jobs, basically emails you and is like hey let's go out I mean this is every unmarried 36 year old woman's dream on my birthday he took me out on my birthday I know isn't that crazy so yes it is again so it is a fairy tale my mom used to he was like a couple years before you know I met John she was like I really think you have this idea of a fairy tale. I'm not sure it's going to come true. I just don't want you to be disappointed. Well, she's now come full circle and said, I'm glad you never stopped believing because they really do come true in the form of Jonathan.

So it was a business lunch. Yeah. Okay. Lizzie's still going with that. Okay. We've moved past that. Okay. Here's the most important thing.

After the lunch, I did not hear from him for about four weeks or three weeks. He just like didn't even follow up. Didn't, didn't. Yeah. So I thought, oh, he just, he really isn't interested. He probably is, you know, and he shouldn't, he should go. And I thought he should go out and date. You know, he's, he's got, he's been in the priesthood for so long.

Like go out. He's got some, got some oats to sow. That's the way to put it. But yeah, I did not hear priesthood for so long. Like, go out. He's got some oats to sow. That's the way to put it. But, yeah, I did not hear from him for many weeks. So were you thinking, okay, Cardinal Dolan won? What were you thinking? No, because he had already done his interview and he was going for it. I just figured he was probably busy.

He wasn't interested. I don't know. And this is where your girlfriends step in and they say, do not write to him. Like, you know, if a guy like, it's like that movie, you know, but it's like, if a guy wants to be with you, he will make it known. And so he will make it happen. So I didn't text him. And then the next time I got a text from him, it was, I was like, I was with Jeffrey Epstein's

victims in federal court downtown being chased by the paparazzi and all the crazy media. And I get this text message from a new phone number. And it's, hey, John Morris here. Here's my new phone number. Just wanted to check in or something like that. And so that was how we kind of reconnected after that. But I will say after he did reach out to me then, there was never a day that went by where I didn't hear from him. You know, when we were dating, he would

always take the time to text or to call or FaceTime and reach out. So it's like he... John... So I can totally forgive him from those weeks. Yes. And now it's ancient history. So, John, I'm working with it. Tell me this. Did you date anyone other than

Caitlin in your, you in your time off? And then I actually took her up on it. This is like right before we started going out seriously. And then she's like, oh, you are not actually supposed to do that. But anyway, that's another issue. It's hard because no woman really wants a guy she's interested in to be, you know, dating around. But in your case, I don't know. Like, I'm not sure. Yeah, she was great about it. She was honestly saying, listen, um, you, I recognize, you know, that this is a big change in your life. And, um, this is all very fast. And she did encourage me to date other people.

And I did. So you, this is, so I know you had your first dinner on July 21st. I did actually read the New York times profile on you. I'm feigning ignorance on some of these things. But the New York Times told me, this is how it was phrased, and I quote, in October, they turned a serious corner. And it was Mr. Morris who suggested they take their relationship to the next level. So is that when you first slept together? Oh gosh. Megan, again, I might not be able to, I can still hear your confession.

I just can't do anything about it. But you definitely can't do anything about my confession. So we're just going to leave it at that. This is about your sin, not mine. Finally. All right, let me ask it this way. Let me ask it this way. I know you said you had the girlfriend when you, before you got ordained, there was a, there was a girl. So like, I'm

going to assume you went into the relationship. Yeah. Come on. I mean, were you, were you a 46 year old version or not? I was not. Okay, good. All right, good. So you had a move or two. Again, we know each other too well. Like, like i mean like i know where you're going this is what everybody wants to know i mean it's like okay i i want to know what it was like for caitlin too because i think i'd be a little scared like there'd be a lot of pressure on me to like i don't know rock his world i how did that feel for you not like the specific but like what emotions yeah i mean john's dying right now because he calls me no filter Kate. He calls me no filter Kate.

And he's like, Oh, you know, cause I just say what's on my mind. And so this is like his worst nightmare, but I will be good babe. And now I will. Did you know that? I know, I know Megan Kelly's husband. He's a great guy named Doug. Excellent. Good friend.

Great guy. Excellent. I'm trying to think of other topics here. Getting out of bounds entirely. Okay. So it went well. Obviously, some test was passed because then you got married. All right.

So who proposed to whom? He proposed. He surprised me. I was very shocked. How did it happen? He told me that we were out in be out in san diego this is like in june it's right after my birthday so it's like our one year anniversary of our first date and he took me he said we're going to some dinner and i was all dressed up and i had done you know

brush my hair and put on makeup so i look decent which was a good thing because who can ask me to marry him and i had no idea um i think when think when we went up to this beautiful mountain on a golf course overlooking the San Diego Valley and the ocean, and I was trying to hug him, and he backed away. And I was like, what is he doing? And then he got on one knee, and I was like, oh, my gosh. And I was like, oh, my God, oh, my God, what's happening? And then he asked me, and then I looked at him and I said like oh my gosh what's that and I was like oh my god oh my god what's happening and then he asked me and then I looked at him I said are you sure and then he's like yes I'm sure of

course I am I said okay all right as long as you're sure yes of course I'll marry you but it took with me a good I think I had to wrap my mind around it for a moment but um it was it was aside from my wedding day the happiest day I couldn't stop smiling. And he had everything prepared. He had a bottle of champagne up there. He had a photographer hiding in the bushes who caught all the photos and the moments. And then he took me to a lovely French dinner afterwards. So it was really a dream. He did a good job.

Wow. I had the moves. Well, I mean, that was a good day. I was kind of referring to different moves, but we'll talk later. Maybe off the record with wine, Megan. That's right. Done. Totally. I will still all. So you get married and it was an amazing, amazing ceremony. You truly were, both of you were, looked like you were on cloud nine. And it happened to be, it was on October 17th at St. Patrick's Cathedral. I mean, of all places, it's the, it's a place of honor in the Catholic church. It's Cardinal Dolan's

church, his pad. And he was there. I think that's so beautiful. I mean, honestly, were you so touched because you wound up getting his blessing? St. Patrick's Cathedral. And I think later there was some pushback by members of the clergy, probably, like, how could this be celebrated in this way? And so, as it turned out, the rector of the cathedral, a good friend of ours, Vincenzo Ricci, presided at the wedding. But Cardinal Dolan decided to be there as well. And we said, Card we said, Cardinal, we understand it's very public. Why don't we go and meet you in the rectory, you know, afterwards, which is where he resides. And he said, no, I'll meet you outside the church. And we came walking down the aisle, right after this ceremony in St. Patrick's Cathedral down the center aisle.

And he was there at the back of the aisle or at the entrance of the church waiting for us with his mask on and his arms outstretched. And it was a very moving moment for sure. Colonel Dolan has always reached out to me and made me feel welcome. When we first started dating, John took me over to his apartment. He hosted us and we drank martinis in his living room. And he talked to me, wanted to know me and get to know me and ask me questions. And he just, I say to him that you are really good for Christianity and for the church because you make being a Christian look attractive and joyful. There's a joy there when you see him. And I said, and that's, you know, that's a good thing for the church. And we always enjoy our time with him. And he has made a point to get to know us as a

couple. And that means a lot. And then obviously that was culminated by him being the first to greet us when we were married. So nice. It's got to be good luck. I mean, there's something in there that's, I don't know, redemptive. So now the big question is, are we having children? Are children in the future? Since this was one of your reasons to leave, right? I mean, you've got to be hoping. No, John?

We are hoping. And one of the things I loved about Caitlinaitlin was that so i'm 40 i'm 48 now um she's 36 um and 37 sorry caitlin and but i was so happy that she she mentioned she would think about she would be a news nun someday like just basically be dedicated to the news she wasn't looking to have children. And that was kind of a relief to me, even though I was certainly hoping to have children or being open to that idea. But she wasn't getting married in order to have a kid. So that gave me great confidence. Another thing that gave me great confidence was this whole terrible epidemic,

pandemic that we're going through, and that we were, you know, spending much more time together than we would have otherwise. And so our relationship really sped up without getting into details. It really sped up, honestly, because we spent, you know, three, four months together all the time. And so I was like, you know what? I actually like being with her. And I think hopefully she said the same thing about me. So that was, that's kind of the silver lining in our own relationship. But the answer to your question is yes, we're very open to having children and we look, you know, we're, we are, we've only been married two months, so stop pressing the issue. But Caitlinlin caitlin was um was adopted from korea um and we went last december back to korea back for the first time since she had been there since she was

three months old um and we went to the very adoption agency um where she had um been you know given by her birth mother and where she spent the first days of her life in this little room where that little room is still there. And it's full of these little babies under three months old who have not even been placed in foster care yet. And Caitlin was able to hold a baby from her town, um, who was there waiting for adoption. So that's also an option. Oh, that would be so beautiful. I feel like there was a reason this happened. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's somebody who's coming in the future. Maybe it's just the love between the two of you, which is such an uplifting force. I've said before, when you marry the right person, it can be such a stabilizing, sound foundation for the rest of your life. I just, I think a lot of people don't realize if

you have a great relationship, what an injection of joy it can be into your world, you know? And the opposite is true too, but we'll stay on the positive for now. You know, like if you've got it and you nurture it, it can stay nurtured. Doug and I have been together now for, I don't know, we met in 06, right? So we're going on 15 years. And it's awesome. And it doesn't even require that much work, just a little nurturing, just like generous lenses, a little nurturing, and a few other things we'll get into over the wine. Oh, can you tell this story?

You guys have to tell this story. It was about, you went to church and i don't know jonathan you were doing something at the church and you were like taking too long can you tell the story oh right it's the communion it's tommy's first communion honey okay i'll tell this story you can't say it with a certain yeah no yes you have to you must yes. We can't. I don't think you can do that with the ratings. No, no. I have an explicit warning. I have an explicit warning label on my show.

You can say whatever you want. Caitlin, I have to ask your permission. Are you okay? Yes, I'm totally fine. Okay. Here we go. Never said this publicly. But so, yeah, we're at my nephew's first communion and it's one of

caitlin's first time meeting my family you can imagine what they're thinking you know like oh you know here he is after all these years in the priesthood who is she and so caitlin grew up evangelical so in the catholic church if you're, if you're not Catholic, um, when you go up to communion, you don't receive because the idea is if you don't believe the same thing, the Catholic church believes about communion, you shouldn't receive out of intellectual integrity, I guess. Um, and so, but what you can do is cross your arms, um, over your chest and the priest will give a blessing on your forehead. So, um, Caitlin was very eager to do that. Okay. And later I found out she was very, she knew that she knew how to do it because she had watched it in Rome when she was there covering, um, the, the conclave for good

morning America, where we met. So she, Caitlin and I are sitting together. She marches out into the aisle. I let her go ahead of me and she heads towards, you know, through the communion line. And as she's, she's now about four feet away from the priest who's giving out communion. And instead of what a normal person would do, a normal person who knows like how to get the blessing would do, a normal person who knows how to get the blessing would do, who would go walk right up to the priest, cross the arms, and wait for him to give the blessing. This wasn't Taco Bell. It was a flyby. She walked right past, crossed her arm, walked right past the priest, and he's looking for

her with his arms stretched out, trying to catch her to give a blessing she has no clue she comes right back in the aisle and um i i look i get back into the my whole family probably saw her do this flyby and um and i said what was that and she looked at me she's in these beautiful high heels and this beautiful dress. And she looks at me and she says, you didn't fucking tell me what I was supposed to do or something like that. It's actually a little bit different, but I don't even feel comfortable saying it,

but you get the message she's like i love it you didn't effing tell me what i was supposed to do you effing whatever i'm like uh well what were you marching up there for like you knew what you were doing but anyway meanwhile meanwhile ffj is like by the way the wafers taste delicious you have to rewind to get that part of the story yeah you don't know you don't know how good they are what you're missing so oh wait so by the way so you you establish you we are you are not going to convert out of catholicism but caitlin is there any chance you're going to jump in? I don't know. I wouldn't completely write it off. I'll think about it. I'll pray about it. When we go to church on Sundays, we go to this great church down here near our neighborhood that

has very good music and preaching, good homily. So yeah, at one point. But John never made that, like when we were dating, it was never, a condition of dating or anything that he needed to marry someone Catholic. And he likes to celebrate, like, my diverse background and where I come from. And so, yeah. So we'll see. See what happens. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, John, but I thought the rule was you can marry a non-Catholic, but the kids need to be Catholic. Yeah.

Right? And Caitlin signed off on that, basically, that the non-Catholic partners agrees to or like recognize the fact that the Catholic partner has promised to raise the children Catholic. Yeah. So this is like my end, no matter how many sins I commit on this earth. I feel like when I get up there and St. Peter's trying to give me a hard time, I'm going to be like, look, I made you three little Catholics. That's all I want to hear is thank you and welcome. And here's your mansion. That's right. So now wait, so what, so professionally, what's next for you, John, you're still at ABC, Caitlin. So what, but what are you, what are you doing now to pay the bills

since now you do have to, no more poverty. Yeah. Well, no, actually there really is poverty now. Like if you don't work, it turns out you're poor in the Catholic church. If you're a priest and you don't work, you just keep your job and you still get paid and people suffer. But that's another issue. Yeah. So I looked at different things. I looked at, you know, promoting hedge funds. I looked at, you know, selling vacuum cleaners. I looked at teaching high school religion. I looked at a lot of different things, and I really have fallen into something that I absolutely love. And that is, in the industry, we call it executive coaching or leadership development. But it's working with people across industries and even people who are not specifically in business to help them basically make good decisions in the workplace primarily. So it's not life coaching. Life coaching would be more like a kind of a low-level counselor or something.

What I do is I get involved with people who are entrepreneurs. And I say, I'm going to work with you for a year. And that's kind of the minimal thing that we do. One year, a retainer, and I am with you as a partner. And the first step is help you to get to know yourself better. And we use very specific personality assessment tools in order to do that. So the first part is self-knowledge, self-assessment. And then the second part is self-management and then applied leadership skills. But basically, it's people, and I've seen this over the last few months, but people have told me that the most expensive decisions we make are the decisions that we make when we're afraid, when we're anxious, when we're jealous, when we're insecure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? Or when we're greedy. And the best and sometimes most profitable decisions that we make are the ones that we make when we're coming from a secure position personally, when we're making a decision where we've gotten some advice from somebody that we trust. And so I'm working with executives and

their immediate leadership teams to make good decisions and to give them courage to go ahead and to execute on those decisions. And I just loved it. So the firm is Morris and Larson. So it's morrisandlarson.com is where you can find us. And it's just been a blessing. I'm doing it little by little. I'm also still working with Fox News as an analyst, as a contributor, but I'm just loving this. Working with people who have high impact and say, I'm going to invest in having somebody who I can confide in, who I can trust, and together we'll make good decisions. And I think it always pays off. Well, it sounds perfect for you. I know in your letter announcing that you were leaving the priesthood, you said, I hope you are able to hear the newfound joy I have in my heart, despite my fear of stepping into the unknown.

You recognize some will not understand. I'm okay with that too. Please pray for me. I did. Millions of others did. So far, so good. Listen, Merry Christmas to the two of you on the first Christmas you will have together as husband and wife, and just so many blessings to you both. Thank you for being with me. Thank you, Megan. Today's episode was brought to you in part

by Bloomsie Box. Farm fresh flowers delivered right to your door. Go to bloomsiebox, B-L-O-O-M-S-Y box.com and enter code MK to get 15% off and free shipping. Okay, on our next show, which is going to be Monday, brand new programming, you're going to love it. Everyone's abandoning you during the holiday season. Not us. We've got new program coming every show.

No repeats. All new interviews. We are going to talk to Jerry Springer. This is an amazing exchange. He's got the most diverse and interesting history. Not only, of course, has he had this talk show, right, for all these years, almost 30 years. But do you know he was the youngest mayor in America at the time? He's got a long political history and somehow that parlayed into him doing shows that are entitled I Married a Horse. He's very open about that transition, how it happened, what it was like,

whether he thinks his show was a force for good. His arrest 30 years ago for solicitation of prostitution. We'll get into that. And best of all, he will recount for you that time he was five years old and stood on the deck of the Queen Mary coming to America from England, looking at the Statue of Liberty and asking his mother, what does she mean? What does that mean? And the answer he got, he will love. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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