The Megyn Kelly Show - Free Speech vs. Harassment, and the State of "Cancel Culture," with Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal | Ep. 775

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

Megyn Kelly is joined by Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal, hosts of the "Blocked and Reported" podcast, to discuss what universities should do with violent, loony protesters on campus, the nuance of free speech vs. harassment, whether our culture is past the worst of the instinct to cancel, how employers and universities should deal with the issue of employees and students taking controversial public stances, a New Hampshire "trans athletes" bill, the issue of biological males in women's spaces, and more.Singal & Herzog- https://www.blockedandreported.org/ Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Campus chaos continues with anti-Israel encampments in support of, quote, Palestine and more absurdity. We're just getting started. Now we learn another Ivy is next. National Review obtained documents that say Princeton students are preparing their own encampment in the days ahead with the goal of having their university divest and disassociate from Israel too. That's not really the goal. The goal is to feel important like you matter, like you have something important to contribute, sweet little cupcake chanting for the death of the Jews.

Meantime, President Biden, who condemned Trump for his both sides-ism after Charlottesville, seemed to have his own good people on both sides moment this week when discussing the recent protests. Joining me now to discuss it all and much, much more to journalists and cultural commentators, Katie Herzog and Jesse single. They are hosts of the podcast blocked and reported. Welcome back, Katie and Jesse. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Yeah. The pleasure is mine. All right. Let's start with Joe Biden and his both sides moment. It's amazing how the media kind of moved right past this, but here's what he said the other day. This was Monday about whether he condemns what's happening in response to Israel. Do you condemn the anti-Semitic protests on college campuses? I condemn the anti-Semitic protests. That's why I've set up a program to deal with that.

I also condemn those who don't understand what's going on with the Palestinians. Huh? What? What? What program has he set up to deal with the anti-Semitic? What program? I'm not sure what he's even referring to. And I'm not sure, Jesse, he knows either. Yeah, it seemed like sort of an off the cuff comment that I don't know. That one didn't bother me that much. I mean, I think he's trying to carve a middle path with a lot of people yelling at him from different directions with the election coming up. I guess if you interpret it as there's anti-Semitic incidents on college campuses, which there are, but he's also, I interpret it, Katie might disagree, as trying to signal some sympathy for Palestinians

stuck in Gaza. Yeah, Biden is in a- Trump got no such benefit of the doubt when he was trying to say with his so-called both sides is Manchalitzville, he was talking about the people who were out there mad about the tearing down of statues. And he had made that clear, but the media refused. They refused. They wanted to make him in support of the tiki torch white supremacists.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any doubt that the media treats Biden and Trump differently. I think that's been well established. But I also don't think it's really particularly fair to compare what was happening at Charlottesville to this current conflict. I mean, you there is shades of shades of antisemitism in both of them. For sure, I can see the parallels. But I think Jesse's right. Biden is trying to thread this very complex position,

which is that there are concerns about antisemitism on these protests, but these protests are also legitimate. These are they are protesting a, you know, the slaughter of civilians in Gaza. And he's trying to not alienate anybody. It is a difficult position to be in. I do not envy him. I mean, when you say the slaughter of civilians, that's just so without context. Israel's civilian military to civilian death rate is one to one. Ours in Afghanistan, ours in Iraq was well above that. It was, I think, four to ones. I've heard as much as 10 to one. So I don't think that is the right term that suggests indiscriminate murdering of civilians,

which is not what's happening. I don't think that we should take America's actions in Iraq or Afghanistan as as the gold standard. It's a complicated, it is complicated for sure. But you know, I mean, there are there are children being slaughtered in Israel. That's that's there's no question about that. And did Hamas start this? Yes, they absolutely did. But it still remains the fact that there are women and children being slaughtered and starving every day in Gaza. I think, yeah, I've had a lot of, I've had a lot of trouble, like figuring out where I stand with this as a Jew. I was so disturbed in the immediate wake of October 7th by the utter lack of any sort of empathy, like the inability to take one day just to say murder is bad. Kidnapping is bad.

Yeah, it was despicable. And I think there's a subset of these protesters who clearly feel that way. I also but I just think like as a Jew that needs to be leavened with empathy for what it would be like to be stuck in Gaza right now. And I genuinely don't know what the answer is. Maybe if they release the hostages, it would get a lot better. Yeah, but today, but they is not some family starving in Gaza. You know, they I don't think Gaza's who elected Hamas. Well, hardly anyone currently alive in Gaza, which is a very young place, elected Hamas and Hamas. His election came Jesse in a very Palestinian are pro Hamas. They elected Hamas. They've been they they chose these people to lead them whose charter is the destruction of Israel. They've been supporting the terror attacks on Israel for a long, long time. They've been pushing propaganda on their own children.

We've seen the UN films of them talking about how they'll celebrate killing Jews. We heard them calling back home some of these Hamas warriors on the day of 10-7 to mom and dad, like, yay, I killed 10 Jews, and the parents, instead of being like, what, oh my God, yay, good for you, we're so proud.

I mean, let's not pretend that it's just a group of very peaceful, loving people who somehow got pulled into conflict with Israel. There was a good article by Graham Wood, who actually saw some of the early footage of that. He talked about, you know, these murderers or kidnappers calling back home and their parents were actually worried for them. And like, why? Why are you doing that? I think there's a Palestinian people. There's a mix of them. There's obviously some awful violent ones, but I just I don't think there's anything that really justifies. I'll put it this way.

If you're going to do military operations that kill a lot of women and children, I hope at the end of it, there's a good outcome that will lead to lasting security for everyone. And I'm just worried things aren't headed that way. Well, I mean, look, it's not that I have no empathy for the dying children in Gaza. It's that I blame Hamas for all of them, all of them, not Israel. You can blame Hamas and understand that this started on October 7th, that they are to blame while also feeling the true victims of this, besides the Israeli people who were slaughtered, are the people of Gaza. They are suffering under Hamas. They are suffering under this current assault. And frankly, I don't think students protesting at Columbia or Yale or Princeton are doing anything to alleviate their

suffering. In fact, I think they're probably distracting from their suffering because now we're talking about- Nor do they actually care about their suffering. I don't think they actually care about Palestine. I think they do. I think they're just 20 year old Muslims. Really? I don't remember any of these protests happening after, you know, the satellite video came out of the suffering Uyghurs in China. Not one, not one student protest, not a camp, not a tent, nothing. I do think there's a something of a double standard where anything Israel does is much more important than anything other countries does. And I've noticed that. But like being a pervert for nuance, as we call ourselves on the show, it's also you can understand Israel is a close ally,

we give them a lot of aid. I just the whole situation is really heartbreaking. And I think these kids are deluded. So at Columbia, Katie and I were debating on our podcast whether Columbia did the right thing, arresting some of them. Part of the problem is apparently the administration went to them to negotiate and the kids said no until the entire University of Columbia, this billion dollar institution, divests entirely from Israel, we are staying put. So I'm not sure what choice that leaves the administrators because it's obviously not the case that a major institution is just going to divest from an entire country like Israel. It's

delusional. Well, the other problem with arresting them is that they have now turned these students into heroes and martyrs. They inflamed this protest. And I'm speculating here, but from the outside, I wonder if maybe the president of Columbia is thinking about what happened to Claudine Gay at Harvard and Liz McGill at Penn and thinking, I don't want to lose my job over this. I'm not going to let allegations of anti-Semitism derail my career. So she responds with force. They arrest 100 students. And then now those students are heroes and that has just inflamed this entire thing and now it's spreading to other campuses on the upside however if they keep this on campuses maybe they

will not block the brooklyn bridge she's this university president is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't because she actually did call in the cops to try to make some arrests and clear the campus and let you know order restore children, children, kids could go to college per the contract that has been struck between their families and the college. And what's happening now is university Senate leaders today are meeting with her and she might get censured for calling the cops. Uh, they're, they're having an emergency meeting. They're hoping it will help calm faculty members, many of whom remain furious over the decision to call in the cops who made more than 100 arrests last Thursday. And yeah, she's looking at a possible censure allegation for doing that.

Of course, the university Senate is made up. I was on the university Senate when I was at my college in Syracuse. It's made up of faculty students as well as alumni and administrators. So she's going to get in trouble for trying to do something the same as you point out, she would have gotten in trouble had she done nothing. Yeah. She's either in trouble with the faculty and students, or she's in trouble with Congress. She's screwed either way. Yeah. Don't, don't be the president of Columbia. Really? I mean, it was obvious. We'll do our best. We were going to take over that role, but now we're not going to.

We declined. I feel like there are still universities where you can go for sanity. You know, I really like a bunch of people at our school now are applying to and hoping to get into like University of Florida. They see this as just a sane place where you can go and you can get a classical education and you don't have to be a leftist. You don't have to be suffered, suffering from woke indoctrination everywhere. And they know that protests like this would be cleaned up very quickly because the order. And it's not just

like protests. Okay. We just had Heather on. She was not tolerant of protests. She really doesn't want to see these snot-nosed kids out there telling us their know-nothing thoughts. But it is an American tradition, especially on college campuses. I don't mind protest, but the camps, the anti-Semitic slogans, screaming, threatening things at Jews, forming these human chains that then follow the Jews and don't let the Jews cross over into their territory, that's a hard no. That's got to stop. And I would absolutely send law enforcement in to arrest and remove anybody doing that on a campus I ran. No, am I wrong? No, you're right. I mean, I think everything is so hysterical online that you're supposed to have one rigid opinion, either you're for the protesters or against the protesters. I think the right

answer is like, yeah, protesting is an American tradition. It's a college tradition. You should probably operate with a soft hand. But as soon as protesters are blocking people's access to places, let alone these anti-Zionist human chain, which was bizarre footage, I don't know. I think if you're going to be a protester and do that, you should accept the possibility that you're going to be arrested. That's sort of the deal, right? You protest, you break the law, and you agree you might get arrested. I'm not sure what the point is otherwise. Yeah, I mean, right. Like imagine if they did this in front of Starbucks, Katie, you know, the cops would be down there so fast for moving them. Why does it make it okay just because they're doing it to Jews on the quad? Right. Well, I mean, Columbia is a private school.

They aren't bound by the First Amendment. But I think they should follow First Amendment guidelines, which a lot of us have been advocating for years now. So, you know, violence is not protected. Incitement is not protected. True threats are not protected. Discriminatory harassment is not protected. So when you surround a group of Jewish students

and chants, go back to Poland, you should be treated as if you had surrounded a group of black students and chanted, go back to Africa. But that's what's so complicated. I didn't mean to talk over you, but part of what's complicated about this is there's also these videos from Broadway outside Columbia, which is like any protest like this is going to attract every lunatic in a 50 mile radius. And I do think some of the anti-Semitic stuff, I'm not justifying it, genuinely comes from non-students. And Columbia has no jurisdiction over non-students. Sorry, Katie. Some of this does look very, to borrow a term, like astroturfy. I mean, a lot of this

does look like outside agitators funding it. I'm like, weird weird? Well, why are all the tents the same color, the same kind of, I have the, I have the answer to that. I was talking to a friend. Do you know the name Fergie chambers? Oh no, no. Fergie chambers is a legendary, uh, he's an heir to a major fortune, but the Cox family, the Cox family, he moved to New Hampshire to not, uh, have to pay taxes as good lefties do. He's a real commie. I don't throw that term around lightly. Let me pause you there, Jesse. We're continuing this so everybody can find out who the hell Fergie is and why he's funding the tents. I'm so glad we got to bring this up.

I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today. You can catch The Megan Kelly Show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey. And yours truly, Megan Kelly. You can stream The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time.

I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free go to siriusxm.com slash mk show to subscribe and get three months free that's siriusxm.com slash mk show and get three months free offer details apply continue the story we were talking about who is this guy? Yes. Fergie Chambers is the heir to an heir to the Cox fortune and a far left violent revolutionary.

That's how he describes his own ideology. Like all good far left violent revolutionaries, he sought lower taxes in the state of New Hampshire. He had this what was what would you call it, Katie? It was like a militia camp sort of in Massachusetts first? Yeah, like a summer camp for revolutionaries. Like an artist residency slash revolutionary militia camp. Yes. So everything I'm saying- This is cool too. Fine. Yeah. Very similar, I'm sure. Everything I'm saying is speculative. I got a call from a friend of mine who's very interested in Massachusetts politics, where Fergie sort of made a name for himself by being crazy. Uh, everyone has been wondering where are these kids getting funding? Where are all these same

tents coming from? And Fergie chambers himself, I dropped it in our chat tweeted as a philanthropist and outdoor, this was April 20th as a philanthropist and outdoor enthusiast i have recently been glad to support u.s college students seeking to learn about camping who don't have access to supplies if if students at more schools would like to explore this wholesome hobby please feel free to dm me for support so it sounds like oh he fled to tunisia that's the other part he converted to islam after i forgot after october 7, he converted to Islam and, uh, and fled to Tunisia as you do. He inherited $250 million. The free press, uh, Susie Weiss did a great store, went up to New Hampshire and hung out with, with free chambers, um, for a weekend or something. It was a great story. He's an interesting character. My team is just texting

me this, uh, Fergie chambers to mother Jones in March of 2024. He called Russian President Vladimir Putin one of the better statesmen of our century and described Hamas's October 7th attack as, quote, a moment of hope and inspiration for tens of millions of people. OK, so we're getting to know Fergie a little bit. And I love that he's really trying to encourage people's love of the outdoors. I mean, that's wholesome and pure. I like the idea that Columbia students can't afford their own tents. They're like the homeless people on the streets in Seattle. They need support. I mean, and it's also funny, my friend pointed this out to me, but we don't know about his legal situation or I don't. He apparently left to Tunisia because he's a little bit worried about his legal situation. If Columbia students are accepting money from a guy based in Tunisia, when they try to work for Goldman Sachs in a couple of years, this could really be problematic for them.

They need to divest from Fergie. They need to focus on that problem first. More here. While he denies a recent claim in LA Magazine that he chants death to America every day, that's an interesting thing to confront him with. He allows that the idea itself is more or less true. Quote, I think the most important thing for the prosperity of humanity is the destruction of the United States. So that's that's our guy. I guess we understand now tent cities a little bit better. Thank you for doing that deep dive.

I need to be clear. This is unconfirmed. This is based on my anonymous friend in Massachusetts. So I'm doing top quality journalism here. But there is a tweet. I'm looking at a live tweet where he appears to be taking credit for funding the tents. Plus we want it to be true. And we want it to be true. I feel that we've confirmed it. I feel the interview with the LA Magazine is confirmation enough. But yeah, I mean, you're right. I mean, that's the irony we were talking about with Heather McDonald, about these kids out there who are paying $85,000 a year at Yale or close to it at Columbia, trying to whine about oppression and while they get their Starbucks and their sushi and their salsa and do their interpretive dance and get their tent funded by somebody else. I'm really worried. Like, you know, when I started off on Fox as an anchor,

it was 2007, 2007. Then when I went solo as an anchor, it was 2010. And that was when I started off on Fox as an anchor, it was 2007, 2007. Then when I went solo as an anchor, it was 2010. And that was when I first started to lead discussions on things like this. And I remember back then, so that's 14 years ago, saying, what's going to happen when these narcissistic, know-nothing kids graduate college? And back then we called them politically correct. Now they're woke. And back then we called them politically correct. Now they're woke and go out into the world. And more and more we're seeing, well, they're going to get jobs

at the universities and in corporate America, and they're going to change the fundamental fabric of the nation. They are winning in pocket after pocket of American industry. And there's a whole slew of offspring coming up right behind them. Now, I will say as the mother of three children and who gets exposed to a lot of kids who are younger, right, I think it's going to end soon. I think they've lost the tail end of Gen Z and Gen Alpha. I really believe that. But that doesn't mean we're not going to have to deal with these kids for a good long while here in America. How do you guys see it? I mean, people, I think, naturally become more conservative

as they get older. You know, our parents' generation, my parents were hippies. My mom went to Woodstock and, you know, she's still liberal, but she grew up to be a taxpaying, non-revolutionary. I think most people will follow that path.

I mean, it is clear, however, that these, these, these ideologies don't just stay on campus. Jesse and I have talked a lot about this on our show. They do enter the workplace, they do enter government and they do get, get sort of they become a part of the fabric of certain places. But I think this all, these things follow a cycle. They're trendy and they won't be trendy always. So I think that this is interesting. I don't think it is an existential

threat. And in terms of these particular protests, I recommend people read Sohrab Amari and Michael Powell on these protests. Both of them actually went to Colombia. And these are two people who I don't think would be particularly sympathetic to the protesters. And they said, basically, you know, this is sort of cringe. It's a lot of land acknowledgement. And it has sort of the ethos of an HR department meeting, of an anti-racism training. You know, it's the safe space of student protests. There is anti-Semitism and bullying, and that's very concerning, and they should all disavow it, but they are exercising their right to free speech. And if they don't cross, and not all of them are crossing these lines, and as people, as three people who have spent the last

few years talking about our support of free speech, I think we need to support these protesters if they are not crossing certain lines. I mean, I think some people want to make this into sort of a Chop Chaz 2.0, that autonomous zone in Seattle. And it just, from the outside, it isn't that. Two teenagers were killed at Chop Chaz. There were multiple rapes there. That was a lawless encampment. And this is contained on an Ivy League campus with gates. So I find this more, frankly, amusing than I do scary. Threatening. I disagree with you.

I had sympathy for the podcast, the podcasters, the protesters until you said they did land acknowledgments. So I think they should be arrested immediately. No, the one point I want to make on the broader thing, we've discussed this on our podcast. I think Katie and I are in agreement that the peak of the craziness, whatever's going on now is a moment of some craziness, but this thing- It's springtime. It's springtime. Right. Exactly. You got to get outside, got to get on the lawn. But also just a few years ago, one idiot's tweet storm could end a celebrated author's career. Publishers were terrified. Media outlets were terrified. We've passed the peak of a lot of that. It doesn't

surprise me that some universities or small literary magazines are still dealing with that. But I think mostly the adults in the room have realized, for lack of a better cliche, you can't negotiate with terrorists and you can't just be constantly firing and canceling people. So I think a lot of things have improved, to be honest, as weird as it might be to say that today. I just feel like we can't be so. We're defensive when it comes to the issue of free speech, for good reason. We've had our speech clipped and criticized and shut down, criticized is fine, but shut down and censored over and over and over and over for the past several years. People who are more heterodox, as I know you guys are on certain

issues and have faced so-called cancellation, but we can't be so defensive of the right and the willingness and the principles behind free speech that we don't draw the line when someone actually has crossed it. I also would allow the protesters if I were running Columbia, I would allow them to go out and protest, to hold placards, to say, you know, the intifada, to say from the river to the sea. It's not great, but I think half of them don't even know what it means. And I don't think- Right, it depends what river you're talking about. The Mississippi or- They don't think, I think half of them don't even know what it means. And I don't think- Right, it depends what river you're talking about. The Mississippi or- They don't know. They don't know.

I don't think they have any idea. It's like the girl, we played a soundbite. She's like, I don't know what NYU has done. I don't know. I'm not sure why I'm here. I wish I were better educated. Okay. So, but, you know-

I think a lot of NYU people say that. Staying in front of a group of Jews saying this is where the weapon should hit. Like saying right here, like you're the next target of Hamas weapons, these Jews right behind me. The human chains blocking Jews from getting on campus or going to class, what we saw elsewhere with them, the Jews having to lock themselves in a library and others banging on the door. Those, you're done. You're out. I'm sorry. You're suspended. You might be expelled depending on how bad it is. Like Vanderbilt, those guys who menaced a cop, you're expelled. Goodbye. We don't need to talk anymore. And I, so I really think it's really not that hard.

Why are we pretending it's all or nothing? Like they, they can protest, keep order, direct harassment of Jews based on their religion is a hard no under the law. So I just like, I don't know. You guys are about nuance. Do you see it? I do. I mean, like, so you just had Heather McDonald on and for years, people are trying to get her in trouble for saying controversial things. And I think for the sake of protecting everyone, you need to allow some pretty awful speech. So that's why I would set the bar high at a public university for what constitutes harassment, harassment, the kind of harassment you get punished for. And frankly, I'm sorry, I would put it higher. I think I'm agreeing with you on this, but the intifada idiocy, I think you need to allow it. If you're individually harassing a Jewish student or

preventing them or any student, frankly, from getting somewhere, yeah, you can't physically prevent someone from moving around the campus. But I think, generally speaking, we need to take a liberal stance on this and let people just scream themselves out, honestly. Yeah, I'm with Jesse on this. I mean, it really depends on where each individual draws the line. And the three of us would possibly get in trouble for saying other things, maybe things on for disagreeing with some activist talking points on trans issues or things like that. And so I think to protect everybody, we really need to be as liberal as possible when it comes to this. I take my guidance from FIRE, the Foundation for what is the individual rights and expression now. And they're clear about this. Violence is a violence crosses the line. Discriminatory harassment

crosses the line. And of course, the way you interpret that is it depends on the individual case. But I think Jesse's right. The point of protecting free speech, it includes protecting odious speech. And I think we have seen a lot of hypocrisy in the sort of broader, you know, I don't like the term, but the heterodox sphere, we have seen a lot of hypocrisy of people who have for years spent the last few years crowing about people getting canceled or fired for their speech, now demanding that other people get fired or canceled for their speech. And I want to take that on. I don't think anybody who's out there, you know, protesting, whatever, just, just pro-Palestine

should get fired for being pro-Palestine. However, the people who after 10-7 came out and celebrated the terrorist murder of infants and children, I want them canceled all day long. I want to know their names that you can say whatever you want. Great. Say it. Tearing down hostage posters of innocence so they can't be helped and the problem can't be discussed. I want their names out there and I want them banned. I'm

perfectly happy. And I don't see any hypocrisy in that position and my stance against cancel culture, which is not about eliminating all consequences for terrible people. Yeah, but there's even here, again, not to be the pervert for nuance, but you need to unpack a few things. If someone says a pro 10-7 thing on a public university campus, they have a constitutional legal right to do so. They don't have a right to not experience consequences. And I do think this idea that you can say whatever you want publicly and be recorded saying it, and it's not going to lead to professional consequences. Maybe people just shouldn't express constantly opinions on every hot button subject in public. You don't have to. But if you choose to do that, there's no

constitutional amendment saying you won't get punished for it. My own view is I don't think people should be fired for political speech except in extreme situations. But there's going to be consequences. So, yeah, to me, it's just a matter of protecting the university. Let me push you on that. How if you are running a small dentist's office and you've got two dentists and your chief hygienist is cheering on the 10-7 attack. This is what resistance looks like. I don't care about the dead babies at all. We need 1,200 more. How do you continue employing that person and have any Jewish clientele? It doesn't work. There absolutely should be firings in response to behavior like that.

There are some thoughts that are so vile you render yourself unemployable. There are people who are out there saying, you know, blacks are bad people. I don't want anything to do with them. Universally, because of the color of their skin um they're this or the other katie's that's katie's view actually they've rendered themselves unemployable with those views that i am fine with that that that is not cancel culture i think i agree with you i'm also now I'm picturing a dental hygienist talking about 10-7 while cleaning someone's teeth. I can't get that out of my head. I agree with that. I mean, there's a price to pay to hold truly heinous opinions. Part of the problem that Katie and I

have experienced is that people seem to have extremely liberal views or maybe not illiberal views of what is a heinous view. Saying there's two, Carol Hoeven, a friend of ours at Harvard, basically had her career partially ruined because she thinks there's two sexes. And there's people who find that more offensive than celebrating 10-7, which is deranged to me, but we live in a colorfully, entertainingly deranging country because it's the freest country on earth and people are allowed to say what they want. This is, this is a good point too, because I know you guys have both gotten in trouble,

quote unquote, for your views on the trans issue, like biological sex is real and people aren't two sexes or three genders or a tree gender or spring gender, whatever it is. Anyway. The tree gender is real, actually, that's the one real one. That's my summation of your position. Thank you, Megan. But I do think the trans thing is an interesting parallel because I'm very, very aware of the fact that this has come back to haunt our side on this many, many times. And what they say, these trans advocates, is you're arguing for my erasure. You don't recognize my right to exist, which is kind of similar to what some of these Jewish students on campus are saying. And in one situation, it may actually be real, the Jewish situation, if you're saying, you know,

gee, I really hope Hamas targets you next with its rockets. And in one, it's not. You're not saying you can't exist. You're saying, I don't see this issue of gender and biological sex the way you do. You can continue existing just as you are. It doesn't mean I have to say you can come into a woman's bathroom or come into women's sports, but I see your argument on the slippery slope. I don't, I was hard on you, but I also have the same worries about where we're not going to be the ones who get to draw the line. It's going to be the hard leftists who get to draw the line. Or the hard right wingers. I mean, this is why Jesse and I have been talking about this now for four years with each other on our show.

And this is why we tend to draw the line as liberally as possible. This is why I think the First Amendment really is the best the best metric here. Part of defending speech is defending speech that you find odious. And as Jesse said, there are people who find the fact that you, Megan, misgender, and I know you don't like that term, maybe call it correctly, sex people, trans people, find that so offensive that they think that you shouldn't be allowed in polite society. A lot of people think that. And so, you know, we live in this, as Jesse said, we live in this big, messy, pluralistic society. And it does not come down to one individual to decide what is socially acceptable and what isn't. And so to me, I think we just need to be as liberal as possible on these on these issues, because that protects the most speech that protects minority opinions. It also

protects majority opinions. It is complex. And that means hearing things that really, really disturb you. I'm for I'm sure for some Jews on campus, I'm also sure there are plenty of Jews who are parked out in one, who are sleeping in one of Fergie Chambers tents right now, but I'm sure there are plenty of Jews at Columbia who are deeply uncomfortable, maybe offended, maybe hurt by what's happening right now.

But we've also talked for the last few years about this concept of safetyism. We've said things like words are not violence. I get I get all that. But they actually have reason to be concerned, at least according to this rabbi who sent out a message to some 300 or 200 Jewish students on the campus of Columbia on Monday saying, I am sorry to say this, but you should not come to campus. I've been informed that campus police cannot guarantee your safety. You should not come.

You should go home. And like, this is something if, if, if my kid were there and received such a warning from a respected rabbi connected with the university, I would not send him. I would urge him not to go, even though I'm much more of the normal reaction of get in there and get up in their grill. But I want my child to be safe and to live. This is actual safety. This isn't the bullshit rhetorical safety that we get lectured on. I don't want to slice the kosher salami too thin, but there's a fair number of Jewish students in the encampments on the pro-Palestinian side. I have not seen any evidence that this is as straightforward as Jewish students being attacked. And I know people are going to be mad at me for making this distinction. But I think if you go up to one of these protests

and identify yourself as a Zionist or pro-Israel, yeah, things are very heated. And there have been a small number of physical attacks. People should like I just people should keep the perspective in mind that given how big a country this is, how many protests have been, how many how raucous those protests have been. There there has not been a lot of violence. I'm not sure there has been some one girl just got a Palestinian flag in the eye. Well, even that by Vanderbilt, when I watched the tape, I did not think it was an intentional stabbing, but she did get the Palestinian flag in the eye. Then there was a protest down in Vanderbilt where there was actual violence that broke out in the back of

that truck where somebody got attacked with an Israeli flag. I think it was an Israeli flag that was used against a pro-Israeli person. We had the video and showed it. But there have been instances of violence. And it's like when they're actually chanting for violence, how do you know they don't mean it? Well, they probably, first of all, they don't understand. I mean, I'm laughing when I say this because there's actually been polling on students. A professor out of Berkeley did some polling about these slogans that have been very popular since October 7th, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, slogans about the Antifata. And this Berkeley professor found that students literally don't know what they're saying. They're just repeating slogans because this is what people do. I mean, we've got a token Jew

right here. Jesse, you're in New York. Do you feel unsafe walking down the streets of New York? I mean, yes, yes. It's an unsafe town. Yeah, I do. I mean, well, yeah, in general, right. In case you haven't heard, it's happening. I'm not an elderly Asian woman, so I feel pretty safe. Megan, if you got women, all it takes is being a woman. Women are getting punched in the face by a bunch of randos who think this is a new fun sport. And have you been on the subway recently? I mean, it's like everyone down there is fucking crazy. No, I don't go on the subway anymore. And by the way, it's not just because now I have money or whatever.

I spent my entire formative years as an adult on the New York City subway going to my job as a lawyer for, you know, almost a decade. And then when I came back and worked at Fox News, same. It wasn't until later in my career where I got some money where I started using a card service. But no, I wouldn't go down there now. I think if you're Jewish, we have a uniquely horrific recent history. And it's understandable that that will color the way we interpret the world. And I think sometimes, I don't know how to phrase this because it's impossible to phrase this without pissing people

off. But sometimes there's a little bit of catastrophizing going on. I saw an Israeli professor at Columbia who was barred from reentering the campus. Compare that to when the Nazis barred Jews from entering German universities. That is not what this is. There is a scary moment right now. People are very heated. I don't think it helps anybody to pretend we're on the verge of another Holocaust or widespread pogroms. And this is the same argument Katie and I have made when people claim that unarmed black people are being killed in droves or trans women are being killed in droves. There's a little bit of a tendency for people to spread the scariest version of a given moment. And while I think there's reasons to worry, I would not want to be a Jewish student in Columbia who is

pro-Israel. I think there's something to be said for maybe chilling out a little bit, frankly. Even being a Jewish student who's wearing a yarmulke, whatever your feelings on Israel, it's not going to go well for you. Keffiyeh. If you're a Jewish student, just wear a keffiyeh. Just wear the keffiyeh. Just do both. It's not very non-binary. It's very, very confusing. Pick a side. All right. I don't, I don't want to end without spending a minute on the trans stuff. You guys are really good and have really been leaders on that at a time when it was very controversial to say what was real. And we just had a disappointing result in New Hampshire as the house there was taking up this bill that would have banned boys from girls

public school sports. And, uh, the Senate, as I understand it, there was a Senate bill. And now that the house took it up and person after person got up there to try to dissuade these house members from passing this bill demanding that instead the boys be allowed to run in the girls races and play in the girls sports. There was one boy who poses as a girl trying to make this point. My L Jacques, this person is crushing all the girls right now in his chosen sport, posing as a girl. And so needless to say, he was against the ban. Take a listen to SOC 23. Throughout my entire life, sports have been an integral part to my belonging, playing soccer since the age of three. When I began my transition in the sixth grade,

my school welcomed me onto the girls' team. This act of being able to be a part of the teams I belonged to allowed me to skip through the phase of social ostracization as the other girls accepted me for who I was. Being part of the team allowed me to be seen as normal where everywhere else I could be perceived as a pariah. I didn't join sports with the goal of dominating competition or being better than anyone else. I joined because it's something I'm passionate about and enjoy.

If banned from sports teams and locker rooms, joining the male teams wouldn't even be a choice for me with the bullying and threats I'd receive, let alone the mental anguish I'd go through being forced to be someone I'm not. Yeah. You feel uncomfortable when you're forced to share a locker room with men. That's how women feel too. Um, this guy won the girls high jump in February at the New Hampshire Interscholastic Athletic Association Division two state indooroor Track and Field Championship. Won it. Finished first place with a five foot one mark on the high jump. That was an inch better than any of his female competitors, but way below the lowest high jump in the boys division, which was five eight.

So if he would, you know, once again, like girl sports is not a solution for middling male athletes. And he's competed in seven meets this year and he's earned six first place finishes for the high jump. So I'm sure he doesn't want that ability to go away. And sadly, I don't think it will because they voted against the ban. Katie, your thoughts. You know, I haven't read the bill itself, so I'm going into this not fully informed. I mean, it is a more complex issue than I think just the way that it's more complex than either side, I think, has a tendency to sort of pose. I mean, if this kid transitioned and took puberty blockers, never went through male puberty, there is a difference, a physiological

difference between someone like Jazz Jennings, say, and someone like, I don't know, Leah Thomas, who did go through male puberty. And I think the law, it's possible that the law should reflect that. And there are, you know, there's this tendency on the left. Why should my daughter, who's 12, have to go in to the girls' locker room and see a man, a boy with a penis? Do you think that I under, I totally understand where you're coming from, but I just, you know, who Jazz Jennings is, right? Yeah. Yes. Do you think that Jazz Jennings should be using male facilities? Jazz Jennings should be a men's. I do.

You think so? I'm with Kelly J. Keene. Okay. So even after having full sex reassignment, having a vaginoplasty, you think that... Yep. Okay. And so someone like... You know who Buck Angel is, right?

No, I don't know Buck Angel. Okay. Buck Angel, he's a... Very buff, right? No, I don't know Buck Angel. Okay. Buck Angel. He's, um, he's a very buff trans guy. Very, very buff trans guy. He, uh, he's, he's a very famous trans man. He's a friend of ours. He's gender critical. You would like his politics. Um, if you saw a picture of Buck, you would never in a million years think that Buck was, was born female. You wouldn't. And so under your sort of, what you would like to see is you would like to see someone like Buck in the changing room with your daughter. I can guarantee you, I don't know your daughter, but I can guarantee you that most women are going

to feel more comfortable with someone like Jazz Jennings in the locker room than someone like Buck Angel. Well, you've made a leap that I didn't accept because it's different when it goes the other way. When you're talking about women who poses men, it's just the safety threat is not present the way it is when it's a man posing as a woman. And you guys know all about the autogonophiles, not to mention the non-autogonophiles who are just male perverts who will exploit these rules, allowing access to our daughters' bathrooms and locker rooms. So yeah, I'm very, very firm no on it. So you think the law should be written so that no, like just like no dicks in the ladies room, they should write the law. Biological men should not be allowed to access women's spaces, period. Okay. But biological women should be allowed to access male spaces.

Is that your position? It's just not my threat. It's not my issue because there is no evidence of biological women who poses men causing any sort of a threat to men. And I believe that in part is why men don't complain about this the way they do the way we do. And they advocate on our behalf as well. And it's also doesn't there's not the same fairness issue when they cross over into sports. No, I agree with you. But I also I mean, I read one article that your producer sent us about this. And there was one Republican legislator who said that the reason that he that he voted not to not to voted against this bill was because there was a clause in this particular bill that would also ban trans women, so trans male, I'm sorry, trans boys, so natal females from competing in male sports. He said that was a threat to men's sports.

And so I think it's just, I think it's a little bit more nuanced than both sides have a tendency to sort of say when it comes to this. I don't know. I'd be curious to get Jesse's take on this. Jesse, what do you think? I agree with whatever Katie said, unless people later find it offensive, in which case I retroactively disavow it. Smart man. Right on.

Oh, Jesse, Katie, thank you so much for joining me today. It's great to see you again. You too. Thank you for having us. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.