The Megyn Kelly Show - Garland's Tears on 60 Minutes, Trump Back in Court, and the War on Men, with Dave Rubin and Owen Strachan | Ep. 639

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Megyn Kelly is joined by Dave Rubin, host of "The Rubin Report," to discuss Former President Donald Trump in court today for civil fraud charges, how controversies and indictments positively affect his campaign, the ridiculous antics of Letitia James and the judge in the case, Attorney General Merrick Garland’s embarrassing 60 Minutes interview, the collapse of corporate media, the media’s reservations in addressing what they screwed up about the Hunter Biden laptop story, Garland's ridiculous hypocrisy when it comes to threats to democracy, DeSantis' appearance on Bill Maher, Trump's ongoing and growing lead in the polls, Trump's Biden impression, Rep. Jamaal Bowman pulling the fire alarm during the House vote over the weekend, his ridiculous claim it was all an accident and he was trying to open a door, the media double standard on stories like this, and more. Then Owen Strachan, author of "The War on Men," joins to discuss the biggest problems about the way our culture treats men and boys, society’s current desire for men to fail, the major issue of men leaving the workforce, God’s design for men, the impact of the “Me Too” movement on society’s hate for men, young boys’ exposure to porn as a stand-in for womanhood, the deterioration of empathy and understanding among men in romance, teaching boys to be men, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I hope you had a great weekend. It is October and the Iowa caucus just three months away. Former President Donald Trump, who is back in court in New York City. We've got to get to this. And yet another legal battle today is way out in front in the latest polls. I mean, it's just growing. His lead is growing.

It's growing a lot, not just like an inch or like a point, a lot, according to a post GOP debate poll. Meanwhile, Merrick Garland is out there spinning again, like crying and spinning. Okay. This time on 60 minutes over the weekend, uh, Dave Rubin's going to join us in a minute, but I want to begin with what's happening in this New York city courtroom. All right. So this is one of the legal cases we haven't really been paying that much attention to because, well, frankly, there's just so many cases and so little time. Um, this one's civil. It doesn't have the prospect of putting Trump in jail, though what it originally did. This originally was the case that was looked at

by the Manhattan D.A. as a potential option to bring against Trump criminally. And even the Manhattan D.A., the guy who's charging him on this trumped up, you didn't document your hush money payment to the porn star properly on your books case. Even that guy thought this was not worth bringing. Two of the prosecutors resigned from the DA's office saying that's BS. You should have brought it. But Alvin Bragg didn't see much there. And so what happened? Letitia James swooped in and she's the AG, very, very political Democrat. She's definitely going to be running for governor at some point very soon. She's the one who took down Andrew Cuomo. Um, and she swooped in and said, I'll do it. I'll bring it as a civil matter against Trump. And I have to tell you in speaking with Trump

world insiders, I think they've been more worried about this case than the criminal cases. Um, I think they think that they can beat the criminal cases on on the law, if not with the juries, with judges. And I don't know that they're wrong about that either. But this is insane. This this case is shutting down Trump's business enterprise. I mean, he's not going to be, you know, with the bankruptcy tin cup like we had in the 1990s, where I remember walking around here where they had like little tin cups out where you'd get your coffee at the kiosk and there were little tin cups saying donate to help Trump, which was a joke. He was still very rich, but he had to file bankruptcy in any event. But there the judge in this case, this far left lunatic already essentially ruled

in favor of Tish James, the AG, on Trump's alleged business fraud. I'm going to try to summarize this best I can, because I don't totally understand it myself, to be perfectly honest. But they're basically saying that Trump, when he was applying for bank loans, overstated the value of his assets and that absolutely nobody got hurt. He paid all the loans back. The banks are not complaining. But this on paper is a crime. This on paper is a legal violation, not a crime. And therefore, he needs to have his businesses put into receivership. They've got they've got somebody like now appointed to run the businesses other than Trump or his kids who are running the businesses. And the entire ability of the Trump organization

to do business in the state of New York looks like it's about to be taken away. I mean, multiple properties, multiple corporations, because Tish James thinks he didn't keep the right paperwork. So Trump actually showed up at this this morning. He goes into court. I'm going to show you what happened. My old pal Hammer was on the news at Fox when they didn't expect to's a civil case, is somebody from the AG's office. And AG Letitia James is sitting right behind that table, glaring at Trump. And when you watch this video, you will see the best, which is this crazy ass left wing drunk, a drunk judge. He may be drunk too. I don't think so. Arthur Engeron, who has enjoyed his moment in the sun this morning in full Lance Ito style. Look at this clip.

There's a camera in that courtroom. Was that supposed to be or would they just be simply ushered out when we're gaveled to order well these you're more likely to have cameras and state proceedings and so it's up to the discretion of the judge and quite frankly i'm not too sure that both parties would want i think that trump views this as the optics of this is working to his advantage look people looking at this live picture right now will be either filled with rage or they will be thrilled. And that's the problem is that, you know, you have James now being shown in the background.

You've got Trump in the foreground. And it fulfills the narrative on both sides. It's amazing to see how much this judge is smiling for the cameras and really enjoying being on screen and sticking it to Donald Trump against whom he issued an order of summary judgment on most of the case last week. And the remainder begins today in a trial that said it could go through Christmas. Joining me now, my pal Dave Rubin, host of the Rubin Report. Dave, this is unbelievable. Like, I know people don't like Trump. I get it. But let me put let me read to you the way Andy McCarthy describes the legal standard in this case.

The law does not require a showing of any harm to anyone. This is that's my adding. The state need not prove that the defendant ever intended to defraud anyone, much less actually defrauded someone. It need not be established that any creditor or financial institution even relied on the defendant's misrepresentations, that those misrepresentations were material or that anyone was actually fooled by them. The state just has to show that a defendant made false claims with enough with enough persistence and repetition that at least two persons were, quote, affected, which whatever it means is not a synonym for harmed. Based on that, they have gone in there and they are basically taking over Donald Trump's businesses. Dave Rubin. Jonathan Turley, the voice you heard commenting on that Fox clip, isn't wrong. People are very likely to feel enraged by this, or I guess the other half will just be thrilled it's more of a pile on as they destroy this man's life. Yeah, there's just so much nonsense here. And Megan, I love how you perhaps mistakenly said

that the judge was drunk. I mean, he might be drunk and now it's out in the ether. So we shall find out. But the way the guy was smiling at the cameras and everything else, by the way, this idea that Trump overstated the value of some of his properties. Megan, you're a homeowner. I'm a homeowner. Many people watching this are homeowners. You get someone known as an appraiser to come in. An appraiser tells you the value of the house. They look around, they look at the property, they look at the neighbors, they see what upgrades you've done. And this goes on, not just obviously in a personal purchase of a home, but also in commercial properties and everything else. Now, I suppose it's possible that Trump was talking to the appraiser and was like,

but my name's on it, it's worth this much more or anything else. But the idea that they've just inflated the prices of all of these things is crazy. And by the way, Mar-a-Lago, Megan, oh, you've been to Mar-a-Lago. Of course you have. The idea that they were appraising this thing at 18 million bucks is absolutely insane.

Look, it's a little rundown. It's not what it used to be. But the value of that land alone in Florida, and I know that's not directly related to what's going on here today, but just sort of broadly what they're doing to this guy, that it's worth 18 million bucks. It's easily worth 80 million dollars. And I'm not an appraiser, but like you can trust me on that one. So they're going after him on on every front. And to your point, I think that if the cameras, even if it's just a little handheld camera, iPhone, whatever, anything that's in there basically helps Trump because more than anything

else, Trump wants the attention on him. He wants to show the hypocrisy of these people. He wants to show that the judge is kind of in on it with the prosecutor and that ultimately it will it will pin him as the victim no matter what, there is not one Trump supporter, MAGA based guy, anything else. And you know, I've been pretty critical of Trump, but there is not one person who will turn from Trump because of this. It might make a certain set of people a little more angry at him, but they're always angry at him. So what's the difference? I feel like the biggest risk here is just yet another impediment to good people running for office. If this is the shit you have to, it's, it's what, I mean, look, for me, I'd be more worried about the criminal stuff. I don't want to go to jail. I don't want to be separated from

my family. Um, Trump doesn't seem that worried about the criminal stuff. I have to say, even having sat with him, he just didn't seem that worried about it. So I'm sure he's, he, he, he doesn't like to think about anything negative. So I'm sure he's just not even like a letting himself go there. But he definitely cares about his business and his plane and his money. And again, just reading to you about what this judge has already done from the Andy McCarthy piece on National Review, he he writes in the 30 35 page diatribe he issued last week when he granted summary judgment against Trump, he not only found Trump liable on the main cause of action, for good measure,

he fined Trump's lawyers $7,500 apiece, ostensibly, writes Andy, for making frivolous arguments, mainly for declining to pretend that this judge, Engeron's, hacked him, is actually legal acumen. I mean, for Andy, that is like, he never gets that mean. So he clearly doesn't like this judge or what's happening. And then he goes on, quote, Most significantly, the good judge imposed the corporate death penalty, putting Trump, his adult sons and the Trump organization out of business, taking away their state issued business licenses, calling for the appointment of receivers to oversee the dissolution of Trump's business entities, and continuing to subject him to monitors. And now, after all that, the trial begins. Trial for what? What's left? Well, in addition to this one claim, writes Andy, James also brought six causes of action in which civil fraud claims are based on alleged violations of criminal laws. That is, this is basically the criminal case that prosecutors assess that was not strong

enough to bring, but a civil case based on the violation of those civil laws. James has the benefit of a civil burden of proof, which is just preponderance of the evidence. That's 51% more likely than not. And anger on the judge rather than a jury as the finder of fact. So I mean, the fix is in. He's going to have to sit there for this. You can see he's very angry. Here was Trump before he went into the courtroom this morning explaining why for this one, he has decided at least for week one to show up and go into court. If I weren't leading in all the polls or if I weren't running, I wouldn't have any of these cases. I wouldn't be seeing you this morning. But I'll be seeing a lot of you, because this is a horrible thing that's happening to our country, and we've got to get it straightened away.

So we'll go in and see our rogue judge, and we'll listen to this man, and I think most people get it. People are getting it. I can tell you the voters getting it because every time they give me a fake indictment, I go up in the polls. He's not wrong about that. Can we just take one more look at the judge? Look at him in his moment of fame, Dave. I mean, this is exactly what you don't want when you go into court, especially when you're the defense. Look at him.

He sees the camera on him. Look at him. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's like, oh, no, look at defense. Look at him. He sees the camera comes on him. Look at him. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's like a prompted, oh, no, look at me. Look at me. You know, Megan, you know, I have been very, very critical of Trump lately. You know, I've talked about many times,

you know, some of the times that I think you got him in that interview. And by the way, I said it on my show a million times. It's worth saying to your face, you did an absolutely great job. It's a tough interview to get, and it's a really tough interview to do. And you just did an absolutely incredible job with that thing. But as critical as I have been with Trump, Trump is at his best when he is exposing lies. And that's exactly what he is doing here. He is completely right. Nobody would be going after his business right now and his various businesses, actually, if he wasn't running for president system comes after him because it is afraid of him, I have no problem whatsoever defending him to the tilt because he's right. Actually,

what you just said is right. Ultimately, what will happen over time is that good people will just never get involved in politics anymore. And it's not just politics, Megan. Good people will not do what we do for a living because they will look at us. Good people will not step up and go to school board meetings because they will scare the hell out of you. And that really is what I would say the meta fight is at the moment. The specifics of whether he defrauded somebody on an appraisal of a property or some of the other things you just read out there are largely irrelevant. And again, most people have made up their minds about Trump. So it's interesting that he's saying, hey, I'll be here for this one at least a little bit,

because he knows he can use that as energy for the campaign. It's very disheartening. I mean, it's like, you're absolutely, it's one thing, I mean, I actually actually see the takedown of Andrew Cuomo very differently than this. Andrew Cuomo was directly responsible for the death of thousands of elderly citizens in the New York State nursing homes. He ordered that the homes take them irrespective of their covid status. This was the most vulnerable population. He knew it. He'd been warned against it.

He did it anyway. Then he lied about it. He should have been thrown out of office for that. Wound up being the women coming forward because we were still in at least a Me Too hangover. At least the left wing is. And so he had to go, you know, live by the sword, but die by the sword. And they took him down. I was fine with that. Fine with it. However, so that's what Tish James ultimately went after him on the Me Too stuff. And she had raised some questions about the nursing homes, too. This is very different. This is it's just a political assassination of a man's business. They're trying to stop Trump from being able to make a living, his sons from being able to make a living in the entire state of New

York. That's where he's based. That's where Trump Tower is. That's he's got a Westchester property. He's got he's got hotels. He's got you know, you could go up and down the list. So, I mean, this is very scary for any businessman. And you think of like, I don't know, there's a lot of Republicans who are in office right now who are businessmen, you know, like DeSantis, who I know you like. He's one of the few who has just been a public servant for most of his life. But look at over Glenn Youngkin, who may or may not be getting into this race. He's made a fortune in private industry. So what it does, everybody who's got Glenn Youngkin's resume now have to think about, you know, the Tish Jameses of the world coming after them and ruining their financial capabilities if they run for office.

Well, there's also a sort of deeper layer to that, which is on one hand, people love Trump because they feel like he can't be bought and sold. Right. So there's something really kind of dangerous there in that. Well, one day, should we only have politicians who are super, super rich? Should only the elites be the ones who can actually govern us? There's something dangerous with that. But even if you took a guy like DeSantis, who you're right, he's been really only in public service for the last, let's say, 10 years of his life. He's only worth, I think he's got about $300,000. Now, that might sound a lot to the average American,

but in politics and certainly in the level of fame that he's attained now is almost nothing. But it's not just that they can come- He could be making three million a year easily. No, exactly. He could be making six or seven million a year. Precisely. But the question is, if you go after his reputation enough now when he's in

office, maybe he won't get that job or maybe some law firm will be like, well, we better stay away from him because we know the way the Department of Justice or whatever goes after these guys. So it's a signal to everybody how the system reacts to people who push against the system. So again, I have just no problem. I'm proud to defend Trump on something like this. And also the short-sightedness of these people. If the goal with all these indictments is really to make sure that Trump can't run or won't run or whatever, well, then at the very least, you'd let the guy have his businesses to go back to, right? So you can't basically say, we're going gonna try to put you in jail to basically stop you from running,

but also we're gonna take away your businesses. Are you gonna never let him golf? Like, you gotta give the guy something. Well, he's got Jared to fall back on because Jared went and cut a deal with the Saudis to rent some hedge fund. Jared's reportedly getting, I think, 20 to $25 million a year just in fees

from the Saudi hedge fund deal. So he can he can lean on Jared if he needs to. Here's speaking of the imbalance in our justice system right now and just the craziness of it. Merrick Garland went on 60 Minutes last night. I don't know if anybody's really still watching 60 Minutes. All my all my like my friends are like they watch it because we're older. But like I don't think anybody in their 20s or 30s is watching 60 anymore anymore. Anyway, Merrick Garland did go on. And I mean, the sanctimonious performance that happened on that show, Dave Rubin. It was like he said, first of all, he said that if Joe Biden interferes and in the Jack

Smith investigation into Donald Trump, Merrick Garland's going to resign. That's how committed he is to the rule. Let's watch it. Let's watch it for fun. Sot 2. The vapors, the vapors. If President Biden asked you to take action with regard to the Trump investigation, what would your reaction be? I am sure that that will not happen, but I would not do anything in that regard. And if necessary, I would resign. But there is no sense that anything like that will happen. Have you ever had to tell him, hands off these investigations, Mr. President? No, because he has never tried to put hands on these investigations.

Sweet, isn't it? They're bromance. These guys, they have such morality when it's a pre-problem. Unfortunately, when we have real problems or post-problems, they seem to have no morality or no ethics or anything else. I mean, it's just, first off, the question itself is a perfect reason why no one in their 20s or 30s would watch 60 Minutes. You don't say to the attorney general, basically, would you do anything illegal? Like or would you would you allow the president to do anything illegal? Like he's going to be like, yes, actually, I would give Biden a little room to do some illegal. It's so stupid. But but that's what the mainstream media does with almost everything. And Megan, I want to give you a little shout out here because at the beginning of September,

you launched your new studio, which is absolutely beautiful. And on the same day, I launched my new studio here. And I said on my show, what a beautiful, I didn't know you were launching it until I saw it that day. But I said, what a beautiful moment in the juxtaposition of what's happening with corporate media absolutely collapsing, firing people, cutting budgets, everything else. And then you got two young upstarts like Megyn Kelly and Dave Rubin reinvesting in their companies and all of that stuff. And I think that that 60-minute clip is a perfect version of that. Because if you sat down with Merrick Garland, you would never ask a question so idiotic

like that. And that's why people are tuning into you and tuning out of this stuff. I'm embarrassed for him. I'm embarrassed. I mean, seriously, even sitting with Trump, I realized that if I asked him tough questions, especially on the legal stuff, he might not give me another interview. That's always a risk with Trump, you know, unless you're in more of a, you know, fan position, he doesn't really want to sit with you. Uh, but I, I had to do my job, right? That's the job. So I tried to keep it friendly enough, but like with some challenging questions

so that I did my job. Scott Pelley didn't get the memo because he asked him, by my count, one question about Hunter Biden, the biggest scandal involving the Biden administration right now other than Biden's age. And would you listen to the question? This is absolutely pathetic. It's not one. The allegation is, Mr. Attorney General, that what is described in some quarters as the Biden Justice Department is taking it easy on the president's son. Well, look, this investigation began under David Weiss. David Weiss is a longstanding career prosecutor, and he was appointed by Mr. Trump. You are not participating in those decisions? No, Mr. Weiss is making those decisions. The White House is not attempting to influence those decisions. Absolutely not.

Oh my God. Same thing. Megan, how many, you know more people than I do. You've been in the game a little bit longer. How many crackheads do you know that got jobs at Ukrainian energy companies? Because I can only think of one.

Do you know any others? Just the one that's coming to mind. Just the one. That in and of itself, that Hunter Biden, who was an admitted crackhead, got a job for, I believe, eighty thousand dollars a month to advise Burisma, a Ukrainian energy company on anything. He had no expertise in Ukrainian energy or anything else. He got that job because of the access to his dad, who was then vice president. Everyone can look at who did what and when did they do it and everything else. He got that job because of the access to his dad, who was then vice president.

Everyone can look at who did what and when did they do it and everything else. And you can look at why does Joe Biden have assets worth like 20 million bucks or something like that and all of that stuff. He's a humble civil servant. Fine. But all you would have to look at if you're looking for any degree of corruption, and now especially when we have this war, not war in Ukraine, is why did his son have this job? And until Joe Biden honestly answers that question, or someone in the administration honestly answers that question, because, you know, they're going to keep putting him in front of cameras less and less for because of some of the mental stuff that's going on that we all see,

but they refuse to acknowledge. That really is what this is all about. You give me an answer. If someone answers that airtight, and actually, you know what, David, it does turn out, Hunter Biden was an expert in this. You miss the six months of studying he did at an international business school on Ukrainian energy. Then maybe I'll let it go. But until then, you don't need much more.

I don't need to see all the bank accounts. I don't need to see much more. This is what politics is. You get access to people through these types of connections, and this is the most blatant version of it. Like it's the sin here is so much more grave than even first meets the eye. It was 60 minutes and Leslie Stahl that refused to acknowledge the laptop that refused to report

on the laptop. The only reason we know about her embarrassing exchange with Trump on it is because Trump taped the interview himself and then released that segment after the 60 Minutes piece on him in which Leslie Stahl refused to ask about the laptop because, quote, it can't be verified. It can't be verified. Well, of course, a year later, her own news organization magically verified it after the 2020 election. So it's the same forum now having access to the sitting attorney general. And you got a chance to ask about Hunter, to ask about his corruption and what's on the now verified laptop. And what do they come up with? The allegation is, Mr. Attorney General, that what is described in some quarters as the Biden Justice Department is taking it easy on the president's son.

You're not participating in the decisions. The White House is not attempting to influence the decisions. OK, great. Let's move on. That's an embarrassment. It's so embarrassing because it's like, again, like he'd be like, yes, actually, I have been involved a little bit. We have discussed it with Joe. He's telling him what the answer is, as if Garland couldn't figure it out in the first place. But this is, you know, I often call this the machine. And this sometimes you can see something, how the machine defends itself so quickly. And you're right that that video a couple of years ago of Trump with Leslie Stahl, that Trump was wise enough to record is a perfect moment related to all of this.

Because now, you just flash forward another four years, we're still in the midst of the lies, and 60 Minutes is still in the midst of laundering the lies of the administration and covering for guys like Merrick Garland, who if they were honestly doing their job, and I truly mean this in a nonpartisan way. Look, I am not for the Biden administration. I think the Democrats have, by and large, gone completely off the deep end and all of that stuff. But it is just important to have some level of truth in our system. And right now, there is almost no level of truth, whether it's the media, so in this case, 60 Minutes with terrible questions, or whether it's Merrick Garland, or it's Joe Biden, or I call her cringe, Jean-Pierre, it's the only person I have a nickname for.

Like any of these people, they lie about everything. And then what it does is it makes good people, they either go kind of crazy because it's hard to deal with lies all the time, or you just check out altogether, right? How many people do you know, Megan, now that are just like, I just can't deal with politics anymore. And that's that's a recipe for for a really sick society when good people just can't take it anymore. Yeah. Deal with it. You must, because, you know, otherwise you wind up with, quote, public servants like Merrick Garland. We do have the 60 Minutes thought just for old time's sake. Here it is. It's this I think it's one of the biggest scandals I've ever seen. And you don't cover it.

You want to talk about... Well because it can't be verified. You want to talk about insignificant things. I'm telling you. Of course it can be verified. Excuse me, they found the laptop. Leslie, Leslie. It can't be verified.

What can't be verified? The laptop. Why do you say that? Because it can't be verified. Even the family hasn't... The family on the laptop... He's gone into hiding for five days. He's gone into hiding. He's preparing for your debate. Oh, it's taken him five days to prepare. I doubt it. I doubt it. OK. Amazing. And, you know, now they now they have the sitting head

of the Department of Justice, which oversees the FBI, which had that laptop back in 2019. And you don't say we mistakenly said that the laptop was unverifiable right before the 2020 election, unbeknownst to us at the time, because we failed to look. Your predecessors, Department of Justice and FBI had the laptop in hand and had it verified. We regret the error to our viewers. Would you like to expand on what was found on that laptop today, sir? Can you, for example, opine on this email about Hunter complaining he had to give half of his salary to his dad to pop to his like you could have just gone down the list. You could have tried to save your asses from the embarrassing spectacle that Leslie Stahl engaged in. But no,

we went a different way. Would you? And Megan, let's not forget, let's not forget, what was it, the 52 or 51, 53? I forget the number of former intelligence officials who basically were on the cover of the New York Post saying that this was classic Russian misinformation. The irony is that the laptop was given to Rudy Giuliani, and Rudy said he would testify that it was legit. And they ignored all that. And, you know, I remember and people can go back to my videos and I'm guessing you too on this one. When Twitter was going out of its way to censor the story, that's when I started thinking it was real. Like at first when they were like, oh, there's some pictures that are leaking or some

weirdness here. Partly I didn't want to know about it because it's his personal laptop and the guy obviously had a whole bunch of problems and everything else. But the more that the system went out of its way, and now we know Twitter literally had FBI and CIA agents working there. And Elon has exposed all of that with Twitter files. The more that the system went out of its way to make sure that not only could you not share the story, but they disabled the New York Post's Twitter account and they would not let you share links to the story privately in your own direct messages. Once they did that, then I was like, well, obviously something's here. Because if it was all bull, you would just let it go. So again, this is how, whether it's 60 minutes sort of lying

for an administration by bad questions, or whether it's a attorney general giving nonsensical answers, or it's a tech company going out of its way to lie or make sure you don't see the truth. That's how the whole machine operates. And I guess a few of us are trying to see through the fog these days. This attorney general who's got two pending criminal investigation, criminal cases against the likely opponent to the sitting president right now, unprecedented to go after a former president, nevermind the leading contender for the GOP nomination. This attorney general, that's the guy behind the two Jack Smith prosecutions of Trump.

And who also we know from whistleblower testimony has been slow rolling the investigation into Joe Biden from, you know, at only two minutes ago, even gave David Weiss special counsel status has been very loathe to have a special counsel look into his boss. He wanted to maintain control. And even with David Weiss, he didn't get the special counsel designation until he proved that he could be controlled, that he was on Team Biden. The evidence is legion. So that attorney general gets asked, Dave, about democracy. And this is where he worked up his John Boehner moment and produced, I guess, a teary moment. I'll describe it as watch it. People can argue with each other as much as they want and as vociferously as they want.

But the one thing they may not do is use violence and threats of violence to alter the outcome. And the important aspect of this is the American people themselves. The American people must protect each other. They must ensure that they treat each other with civility and kindness. Listen to opposing views. Argue as vociferously as they want, but refrain from violence and threats of violence. Why do you feel so strongly about that? Well, I feel it for a number of reasons and a number of things that I've seen. my own family who fled religious persecution in Europe, and some members who did not survive when they got to the United States. The United States protected me.

If democracy is an emotional subject for Merrick Garland, maybe it's because he has witnessed how suddenly it can be threatened in Oklahoma City and Washington, D.C. same guy who was fine with referring to parents as domestic terrorists, the same guy who didn't give a shit about threats outside of the Supreme Court justices homes. That was not a problem for him. So that guy is very concerned now, Dave, about threats, you see. And what's what? So what? January 6th is the whole Oklahoma City bombing now. What's happening? It's so incredible. And you got to give the devil his due. Don't you kind of admire these people that can bust out the crocodile tears like that? Like, I can't do it. I've covered stuff that has upset me on my show. You've covered stuff that has upset you. But somehow they can all do it. Jon Stewart can cry out of nowhere and Barack Obama can cry

out of nowhere and all the late night shows can cry whenever they want. And yes, of course, we could go into the litany of things that they don't cry about that they actually do. What he really was trying to hit on there was that parents, and that's what you're referencing, parents have been stepping up and exposing a lot of this nonsense as it relates to their kids. And they don't like the rhetoric of a parent who might not want their child to be taught something about gender that is completely counter to biology or reality. And they want to make you scared of things you shouldn't be scared of, say, January 6, which they think is worse than 9-11, which is so extraordinary, we don't even have to get into it.

And they want you to be angry at people you shouldn't be angry at as they're the ones that are pilfering the whole country. I really, in some ways, I admire it to some extent. If you remember, you remember the original movie Alien, and there's this incredible scene towards the end of the movie, the alien has killed everybody on the ship. And now it's just Sigourney Weaver and the doctor on the ship who turns out to be an android. And you realize what he is and everything. And she's talking. Yeah. And she's talking. Yeah. And she's talking to him about it, about the alien. And he says that he admires the alien because it's merciless. It does what it's set out to do.

It has its own code and it abide by it. Sure, it killed everybody. You know, everyone you know is dead. But it did what it was supposed to do. And that's when I see these people sometimes. I don't admire what they're doing, but I admire it's not admire exactly, but I can recognize the cold calculated moves that they use to do it right in front of our faces while they pretend to cry over over it. It's it's extraordinary. It's amazing. I mean, his version of threat is we played it when when

that group wrote to the White House and the White House looped in Merrick Garland's DOJ about these threatening parents. And the group was calling them domestic terrorists and wanting the invocation of the domestic terrorist law later verified by the FBI as an investigation into possible terroristic acts. We played, we looked at the 19 instances that were cited in the attachment to that letter that got the FBI involved. Merrick Garland approved it. It was literally things like the parent went too long after they said your time at the microphone is done. I mean, truly, it was like he kept he kept talking. The one parent didn't have the mask on when he's supposed to wear be wearing the mask. They, of course, cited that poor dad down in Virginia, Loudoun County, who got into a scuffle after he was told he was lying about his daughter being raped, which we now know she was by a kid wearing a dress in the girls room.

So this is Merrick Garland's DOJ. He was fine with all that. Those are the things that he. So he talks about the threats, the threats. And Scott Pelley wants us to believe in mentioning Oklahoma City, where I think Merrick Garland was either a U.S. attorney or judge for that. He wants in the same breath to talk about this is why he takes threats so seriously, you see, because it's like Oklahoma, where 168 Americans were terrorist bombed by domestic terrorist here. Like that's that's the threat link. But what we know, we know what he sees is domestic terrorism. It's not just Oklahoma. It's also January 6th, which apparently they think is just as bad. We've left is told us 9-11 is just as bad, if not, if not January 6th worse. And then the guy speaking past his time at the microphone lumped right in with Timothy McVeigh.

Yeah, because that's what they want to link. They want to link these things so that if you are a parent who stands up because your daughter has been raped by a boy in a dress or you found out you were angry that they were calling your son Justin, Justine for three months or, you know, we could go through the list of crazy things that they're doing at public schools. They want you to somehow in your mind, and that's what 60 Minutes is doing. It's trying to connect that, the guy who stands up for his daughter or son, and they're trying to connect that with, oh, next thing you know, that guy will

be bombing like in Oklahoma City. And that is really, really dangerous. And again, the fact that they can emote the way that they do that, that's what they're really, really good at. They somehow, they have faux emotions. These are not real emotions. They cover their lies using emotional trickery so that people can't really get an honest assessment of going, oh my God, he's crying. He cares so much about democracy, this guy,

that he's an adult man crying on television. He must be a good dude. There's no crying at the Department of Justice. Sorry, Mr. Garland. I'm going to try to cry for the next, how long we're doing this for another half hour? I'm going to try to cry. I'm going to try to get some tears out during this thing. Somehow. I already had

to mock somebody's fake cry last week that Jonathan Van Ness. I'm so tired. I'm tired of having to defend the boys who are in the girls' sports. I'm tired, too, of your nonsense, sir. I'm tired of Merrick Garland's fake tears as he completely spins the entire rule of law on its head to where we no longer believe in it. A fundamental thing we need to believe in.

Okay, quick pause. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about the latest polls that Trump was referencing because as you know, Dave is a DeSantis supporter. So I really am interested to hear what he thinks about these latest numbers. It's Trump 63, DeSantis 12. My God. That's as of Friday. Stand by. My trusty team looked it up because we covered this so extensively. Those 19 examples that led that Merrick Garland, the new John Boehner crying, you know, just so fear for democracy. And he was the one who said, fine, yeah, domestic terrorists, that works for me. We pulled it up. I remembered it. So clearly, number 10. This is what led him to sick the FBI and the parents. Grand Ledge School Board goes

into recess due to public disruption. Oh, sounds bad. What happened? June 16th, 2021. Quoting here from the memo, board meeting had to go into recess twice. Once because someone went over their three minute time limit during public comment and refused to sit down. There was a five minute recess. The tears, the tears. I don't know what to say. Oklahoma City, January 6th. I had a meeting and the coffee was cold. Spare me your tears, sir. I cry for those parents, not for you. Okay, let's talk politics now. I want to get into this. Trump, I've got to play a soundbite before we do Trump to Santa. Let's spend a minute on Trump Biden. Trump goes out and made a ton of news at this appearance he did, and it was a rally in Anaheim, California. He was classic Trump. He made you laugh.

This is why he's winning. People like somebody who entertains them. They kind of forget about the drama he brought when he was in the White House because there's been some distance. And he gets up there and does a great bit on how clueless Joe Biden is whenever he takes to the stage in a mic. Watch. Some people say Biden is going to make it. Does anybody think he's going to make it to the starting gate? I mean, the guy can't find his way off of a stage. Look, here's a stage. Here's a stage. I've never seen this stupid stage before, right?

I've never seen it. But if I walk left, there's a stair. And if I walk right, there's a stair. And this guy gets up. Where am I? And if I walk right, there's a stair. And this guy gets up. Where am I? To the listening audience, it ends with him facing the back wall. Where the hell am I?

You do stand up. Come on. You have to admit it's good. Yeah. I was just going to say, I mean, when Trump's at his best, there should be a two drink minimum and, you know, everybody would have a ball and like that. That's him at his best. And by the way, it's not only him at his best because it's off the cuff, but it's also because he's telling us something that we all know that the mainstream media refuses to show us. Right. If the mainstream media was being honest about what's going on with Joe Biden, the thing that we all see that I have no doubt you're playing clips of every single day, getting

lost, not knowing what he's saying, wrong references, lying about where he was or when he was there, growing up as a Jew, growing up as a Puerto Rican, growing up as a black, all of that stuff. If they would cover any of that honestly, then it would actually diffuse Trump, right? He wouldn't be able to go to the greatest hits and do it so obviously, but because they seem completely unable to show us anything true, they basically hand it to Trump. So again, I really, I'm trying hard. I don't hide what my feelings are about the candidates, but I have no problem giving the guy credit where it's due. And that's the type of

stuff that people love. And look, it might just be true before we even get into the polls, Megan. I concede it might be true that people want to show and a showman more than a competent executive. That might be where America is at. And if it is, then we'll desert, we'll get everything we deserve. Right. But maybe it's not. And now, if you want to talk about the polls, we could do that. Yeah. OK, so I'll go back to my pal, Andy McCarthy, who I just love. But he does not believe that Trump can actually win the general. And he, like you, wants a different candidate, because even though people are charmed by Trump, he doesn't think he can get the ball across the finish line. I guess that's not the right way. That's not the right metaphor. He can't get the ball into the end zone. He can't. Goal line. OK,

whatever. You know what I'm saying? So here's what Andy says. Um, with all due respect, if you're starting to say, you know, maybe he really can win. That's proof that the indictment strategy has worked to perfection. And he goes on to say, if we toss out that absurd Washington post ABC news poll, the one that has, um, Trump over 50 50 percent has has only ever had Trump over 50 percent and significantly ahead of Biden. What we find is that Trump is where he's always been unable to get to 47 percent. That's where he was in 2016 when he miraculously won. That's where he was in 2020 when he lost. And I don't believe Trump's numbers are going to stay flat. I believe they're going

to dip by more than three points, maybe much more by this time next year because of indictment Rama, you know, because the, all the criminal cases, all the negative news is going to be out there about them, about him. Do you agree? Or do you think it's a different problem? I will hit the poll thing, but let me just say one thing quick first, which is that if Trump believes that the election was stolen, which is still what he says and what many of his supporters believe, and let me not even take a position on that for just a moment, but if that's what he believes, then the polls and the numbers and

whether he can get more votes and everything else are completely irrelevant. And it's the only issue he should be addressing. If you believe wholeheartedly, and again, I believe he's being forthright. I believe he believes it. Then if you believe they stole it from you last time, why wouldn't they steal it from you this time? So you can tell me you're doing more rallies than ever, which obviously isn't true, or that the crowds are bigger than ever, which isn't true or whatever. But if they stole it once, they'll steal it again. So to me, first, before we talk about polls, he has to address that.

OK, they stole it from me last time. Here's what I'm doing on the ground. Here's what I'm doing to make sure a pipe doesn't burst in Philadelphia at midnight on election night. Here's what I'm doing related to ballot harvesting and everything else. But he hasn't done that, nor does I don't think anyone thinks he has the team around him that could actually honestly take care of that stuff. So I would say that's one problem on the polling side of things. Megan, how often? Before you wait on the polls, let me just reiterate the numbers that we're talking about. So people know, cause I just said it in a tease, but morning consult came out on Friday. Um,

as of Friday, Trump at 63%, that's plus five since Monday post debate. Uh, then DeSantis at 12, that's minus three since Monday at the debate, but vague seven minus two since Monday after the debate. Um, and then there's Trump. I don't know. I don't know. Is this a second one? Friday afternoon. And that's Trump 62. DeSantis at 10. So the point is, oh, that's a New York Post poll. So you got the New York Post poll, 62. DeSantis 10. Morning Consult, Trump 63. DeSantis 12. You go. Well, first, let me ask you a question, because I think it might help us here a little bit. In all your years of covering politics and elections and everything else, would you say you more often cover how polls were wrong or right?

I've never seen a poll wrong by 50 points. Never. So I'll concede that. We seeing like some crazy thing here, but usually at the day after the election, aren't we always talking about how polls are wrong? Pretty much without exception, right? Yes. I'll get to the, what is every poll and I'll get to the, I'll get to the numbers in a second. But I, but I think it's, I think it's important that people putting aside 60 to 10 or everything else. I think it's important that people, putting aside 60 to 10 or everything else, I think it's important that people view polls very skeptically. I am an adult. I'm 47 years old. I have never been polled. No one has ever called me for a poll. I've never been texted about a poll. I don't know that I know

anyone who has been polled. Now, you know, they've changed things over the years, but usually it's done by landlines. So you're eliminating a certain set of people who don't even have phones anymore. I think it's become very faulty. We all know there's all sorts of ways to juice polls. Bad sign when you're saying those things. But no, no, no. But everything being equal, there obviously is some validity to what's going on with the polls right now, right? So I'm not saying Trump is not the frontrunner. He obviously is. I would also say that DeSantis, who clearly is number two, he has to do a better job of separating himself from the pack. I think, you know, DeSantis' strength is also his weakness right now. I've been calling this the Tim Duncan

theory on my show. I don't know if you're much of an NBA basketball fan, but Tim Duncan was a... No, okay. So bear with me on this one for a second. I think you'll get the idea. Tim Duncan was a 15-time... He played during the Kobe Shaq years, but you probably don't even know the name Tim Duncan. But the guy was a 15-time All-Star, won five championships. That's as many as Kobe. He was on Olympic teams. He was on every All-NBA team, but he wasn't flashy. He wasn't a big dunker.

He wasn't a big talker. He retired the same year as Kobe. Nobody knew he even retired. The point is that that's what DeSantis is suffering from right now. Everything he says. I mean, how often on your show do you play clips of him lying? I'm guessing pretty much never. How often do you play clips of him not doing something he said he was going to do? I'm going to say pretty much never. He's doing everything right. And in a weird way, we don't know how to react to that because we've become sort of a cult of personality country.

So I think his weakness is his strength now that competence doesn't go viral. When you have a great interview with Trump, the stuff that goes viral are not the moments where Trump says something right. It's when he says something wrong. And DeSantis doesn't say a lot of wrong things. He doesn't make fun of people. So he's struggling in the, I would say, zeitgeist layer. And he has to figure out how to deal with that. I think he had a great interview with Bill Maher where he really showed that a true liberal like Bill Maher would have a much better life in Florida than California. But you got to figure out a way to make that translate. So whether it's whether the polls are off by seven, you know,

60 points or five points, there's still a lot of work to be done. I have no problem telling you that. You know, there's definitely a lot of work to be done. I mean, I, I want to talk about it more and we have a clip of him on Bill Maher. I think he's, I don't know if he's getting better or if he was just misjudged from the start, but we'll talk about that too. I'm going to squeeze in a quick break. Dave stays with us. Plenty more to get to don't go away. And don't forget folks, you can find the Megan Kelly show live on Sirius XM triumph channel one 11 every weekday at noon East. I'm right in between Glenn Beck and my pal, Dr. Laura love my neighborhood over here on Sirius XM love the triumph channel. Check it out. If you want to watch the clips or the full show on video, go to

youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. And if you prefer an audio podcast, super simple to follow and download on Apple, Spotify, Pandora stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast. Don't forget to hit that little smash that subscribe button. I don't know. Download it, follow it, whatever. Just do what you have to do, because that way we come into your inbox and we just tap you on the shoulder and say, here we are. Don't miss the show. Great stuff is happening. So check it out. We're going to get to Jamal Bowman, this Democrat in New York who pulled the fire alarm in Capitol Hill and now is denying he understood that when you pull the fire alarm, the sirens go off and the fire company gets involved. And it's it's a big thing.

Doesn't actually just magically open doors. It creates creates an emergency situation. He's giving a new comment about it. It's actually the best story of the day. I've saved it to, to, uh, too late in our interview, but let's just stick with DeSantis and politics for right now, because DeSantis went on with Bill Maher. Bill Maher, I have to say, did something I don't like. And he called him Ron. I just feel like when somebody is on the show to call him, he's a sitting governor, like call him governor, be respectful privately. You can call him Ron, but no, anyway, maybe it was just the lip of the tongue.

That's not really the point. Watch what they said. The debate, it was a shit show. I heard you won. I heard the polling said you won. What did you win? With Trump, no, honestly, with Trump not in the race, what did you win? In the midst of all the show that happened, I was the one guy that people said, you know what, this guy's actually acting like a president when the rest were not. Why run against Trump? You're trying to thread this needle that will never happen.

Well, for a couple of reasons. You can't you can't disavow him because you that's the base. And yet you're running against him. And that's why. I mean, let's face it, Ron. If this campaign was going well, you wouldn't be on this show. Oh, that's not true. What did you mean? I got to say, I was there that night and I chatted with the governor a little bit beforehand. And I thought, you know, as a former lib, like a Bill Maher style lib, I could maybe offer a little insight into where Bill was going to go with him. I think he did an absolutely great job. And Bill, look, I'm friends with Bill. I spent a nice amount of time with him after.

He's a nice guy. I think he gets a lot of things right and he still gets some things wrong. But that line there at the end, you wouldn't be on this show if you were doing well, what really was so wrong as an interviewer, because all we always ask for in public policy, in public life right now is for people to sit down with people they disagree with, right? You're really, really good at it. I tried in my best ability to do it. It's getting harder and harder, obviously, because once they frame you as a scary right winger, it gets harder to sit down with people. But DeSantis did what we all want. He went into enemy territory,

into Hollywood to talk to a lifelong Democrat who literally last week said he was going to vote for Gavin Newsom. That's what Bill Maher said. And he and he defended all of his views. So I think that was my one disappointment with the interview is that Bill gave it a real cheap shot at the end, because beyond that, DeSantis not only defended his policies across the board related to everything on Florida and covid and what he would do to the administrative state and everything else. But Bill didn't have much to disagree with him on. You know, I mean, that was the real takeaway of the thing. If you are an old school liberal, you would live a flourishing life in Florida. And that's what DeSantis has done here. So what's I mean, realistically, Dave, I mean, I look at the debates and I look at the GOP field right now as the

backup plan to Trump. You know, if Trump is in jail, the Republicans are going to have to run somebody else. I mean, there will be a certain point at which Trump is no longer an option if the Democrats get their way on these criminal trials. And so it is important to have an ongoing debate about who other than Trump. But I just can't see at this point anybody taking Trump out. I just can't see it. Like even DeSantis has got most of his eggs in the Iowa basket, but Trump is still beating him by any place from 20 to 30 points, depending on the poll. And even if again, I would say, I just don't want to get too hung up on polls. I really don't. I get that you're talking about a wide chasm here, but they are so often wrong. DeSantis is going to

all ninety nine counties in Iowa. Trump is bare. he was in Iowa in the last couple of days, but he's barely going there. And we know it all flips with one win. So I would say that if Trump refuses to debate, it is regardless of who you support, it's really unhealthy for democracy. I had Jordan Peterson on my show at the last debate, live after the debate. And Jordan said that in a healthy democracy, both Donald Trump and Joe Biden would be debating. It's not about, OK, fine, we can all acknowledge it might be a good strategic thing that he's letting them all fight it out while he's not there. But truly, in the country that I think most of us want to live in, where we would honestly have the debates about ideas and that you would have to really make your case

against your ideological opponents or the people that you want to win in the primary against, that would be a healthier way about going about things. And Trump's refusing to do that. And by the way, you know what this is going to lead to? If Biden is the nominee, and I honestly think it's going to be Gavin Newsom, I don't know how they're going to do it,

but don't put anything past the Democrats. But Biden or Newsom or whoever it might be, will refuse to debate Trump. If Trump just says, I don't have to go to debates because I'm the obvious winner of this thing, I'm not going to debate. Well, then Biden will say, you know what? I don't have to debate either because he's he's a racist white nationalist. And then one day we will have no debates and that will not be good for any of us. We're going to get to fall of 2024 after each party settled on its nominee. And that's when you have generally the three general election debates and they're both going to show up.

It's going to be Biden and then, you know, probably Trump, but maybe somebody else. And there it's on and all the TV cameras are going to be there. And then Biden's going to pull the fire along because that's the new thing. Yeah, that's what he just thought thought he was looking for the door, you know, story. So this Jamal Bowman is a Democrat from New York and he's a big defund the police guy. A system this cruel and inhumane cannot be reformed. Defund the police. July 4th, just to give people a flavor of Jamal. July 4th, this July 4th, we must remember that we stand on stolen land, toiled by enslaved Africans and so on. All right. So they get

the picture of who Jamal is. And Jamal, I don't even, I don't even like covering the spending dustups. I'm so sick of doing it. I've been doing it for almost 20 years. They always wind up working out. They always, this bringsmanship into the 11th hour. People get all excited. And then they do what they did last night where they get it, you know, postponement for 45 days and then we'll do it again. And then they'll whatever, sick of the bullshit. People got other things to worry about. Anyway, in the context of that back and forth, the Democrats wanted a motion to adjourn the vote on whether they should partner with some of these Republicans and just postpone the thing, just get 45 days of relief until they have to deal with this problem. But some weren't sure if they should sign the

motion or vote in favor of this motion to adjourn. And the Democrats were saying, hold on, you know, like, let's see, you know, let's postpone it a little bit. Anyway, Jamal Bowman, in the midst of that, decides to allegedly on his rush, rush, rush to get there to vote, instead pulled the fire alarm. And now what he's claiming is he really was just trying to get out of the doors, Dave. But there we see him not pressing the doors, pulling the big the little red button that from time immemorial always says fire. And like even, you know, our little four year olds know, well, fire means you're calling the fire department because there's a fire. It doesn't open doors. You see, it calls a fire department. Jamal. Hello, sweetheart. Pay attention, sweet. And now he's trying to say he was confused. This is the statement he gave the other day. He said. As today, as I was rushing to make a vote, I came to a door

that is usually open for votes. OK, but this one leads to the outside. So, OK, I don't know. He's open for votes. Maybe he needed to go outside of this building into another one. But today would not open. I am embarrassed to admit that I activated the fire alarm, mistakenly thinking it would open the door. A mistake literally nobody's ever made in the history of mankind. I regret this and sincerely apologize for any confusion this caused. Then, Dave, just to give you a little flavor, everybody starts posting a picture of the area where he pulled the alarm. And they post a picture with these two red signs that say like, press the door on the bar for three seconds and the door will open. Well, if you look at the actual picture, see, this is what we see all

over the internet. Jamal Bowman's not in it. And you've got these two signs saying, press the door for three seconds and the doors will open. Alarm will sound. It doesn't say anything about the fire alarm on the wall. But if you look at the actual picture of the moment Jamal Bowman was in the fire, was in the hallway, those red signs are not there. You can see the backs of two other signs that are on the outsides of the doors. So I don't buy that the red signs caused him any confusion, which is what some people are saying. I don't buy that. Well, of course, I mean, he pulled the fire alarm and he knew very well what they were going to do. Yes. Anyone who's ever pulled a fire alarm in the

history of fire alarms has known what's going to happen when you pull the fire alarm and it's not open a door. But also it says emergency exit right in front of him. Like it's also stupid. But, you know, this is what I call Democrat privilege, because nothing is going to happen to Jamal Bowman. He you know, maybe they'll give him a slap on the wrist, but nothing really is going to happen to him. He won't even have to leave this stolen land. You know, wouldn't that be something, you know, you broke the rules. You should at least leave the stolen land, but he's not going to leave the stolen land. He's going to be just fine. If anything, it will be a perfect example of Democrat privilege. He will become more famous because of it. And they

will make him, they will give him an even better job. He will eventually be speaker of the House if they take over or he'll become a senator or he'll probably figure out a way to be Newsom's VP, because if you're a Democrat and you do something stupid or illegal or immoral or completely insane, you fail up. So I hate to say it, but Bowman ain't going anywhere. People are making the comparison to some of the January 6th protesters, not the ones who caused violence, but like the ones who are kind of wandering around just aimlessly through the Capitol and the police that held the doors open, who have been charged with obstruction of a congressional proceeding, saying, how does he not get charged with obstruction of a congressional

proceeding when he's clearly trying to evacuate the buildings so that they're not they can't take a vote on this thing that they wanted to postpone? That's how it looks anyway. He doesn't get charged. No investigation. One Republican saying he should be expelled. McCarthy says there should be some punishment. Here's what Bowman said today, just moments ago, Dave Rubin. This is the latest spin. You still stand by your statement that the fire alarm was an accident? You know, I don't know why this has gotten so much attention. I was literally just in a rush to go vote, man.

That's all it was. Are you afraid of any repercussions, either from leadership or from legal aid to Capitol Police? I mean, listen, I take responsibility for what I did, you know, but like I said, I was in a rush to go vote. And, you know, investigation will sort everything else out. Have you talked to Jeffries about it? Oh, yeah, of course. How was that conversation? I got to keep that between me and the leader.

So I'm not going to share that publicly. Yeah, we've been in touch with each other. I mean, how many times, Dave, have you been in a rush and you're running down the hallway and you can't like the doors not opening and so you just pull the fire alarm? I mean, that's that's a thing, right? Oh, man, I had something to do. I wasn't just doing it for no reason. Like it's irrelevant whether he did it for a reason or not. And he obviously did. It's not the reason he's saying he wanted to postpone the vote. That's what this obviously was. He was just in a rush. But again, nothing's going to happen to him because this is how the this is

how the system operates when people talk about the swamp. But particularly, there's a Democrat version of the swamp where you can always get away with everything. If this had been Lauren Boebert, let's say, the woman got her boob squeezed. We talked about it for like three weeks, right? If Lauren Boebert had done this, and by the way, all the guys in my studio said that, you know, chicks are into that. It's all right. It's all right. It's OK. In the right setting, it can work. But the point is, if it had been her pulling this, they would have said insurrection.

But he's going to he's going to get away with it. If anything, you live in New York and you're in this guy's in this guy's district. You've got to get rid of him for a litany of other reasons. And also know that you also are on stolen land and you should probably move back where you came from in the true Democrat tradition. You know, it's like we got what, Caroline Maloney. She's a hot mess. You got AOC, you got Jamal. I mean, New York, as Trump would say, they're not sending their best. We're going to have to work on it. Megan, I live in the free state of Florida.

You scooted out, but not that far, which we should take offline and discuss your migration down here soon enough. Connecticut has been an improvement. I will say that. Not perfect, but for sure an improvement. Or as I like to refer to it, New England. I live in New England now. It just sounds fancy, doesn't it?

Bye. You're very fancy. You're very fancy, Megyn Kelly. See you soon. Good to see you. All right. When we come back, we're going to turn to the topic of boys and men and the war on both of them. Some devastating numbers now on the U.S. workforce and the great migration out of it by men. Why is that happening and what does it mean for us? Stand by. Now we're going to turn to the attacks on men happening seemingly everywhere in our culture today, from fatherhood to the workplace and school. Our next guest argues young men today are not only failing to become strong, but they don't know what it means anymore to be a man because of what society is doing to them. The constant smear of manhood as toxic and the lack of smart, valuable guidance on all of this. But fortunately, there is a way forward.

And Owen Strand is here to talk about it. He's a provost and research professor of theology at Grace Bible Theology Seminary and author of the new book, The War on Men, Why Society Hates Them and Why We Need Them, out tomorrow. Great title, Owen. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really looking forward to this discussion because last week we ended the week. We had a great interview with Scott Adams on Friday, but the day before that we were talking about this thing that's happening in the UK with some friends of mine, which is why you don't do a lot of UK news over here, but this involves some friends of mine and it's upsetting to me. And it kind of plays right into what you're writing about. Just to

bring the audience up to speed, this political pundit, recovering actor, Lawrence Fox, went on GB News, which is a more fair and balanced type news channel over there. And he went on the show of Dan Wooden, who's an anchor, most popular show on GB News. Dan's been on my show many times. And Dan asked him about these comments that this woman, Ava Evans, made. She's a political commentator, very dismissive of male suicide and the crisis of male suicide. She really didn't seem to give a shit to be, sorry, I'm speaking to a theologian. Anyway, so she didn't seem to care at all. I think that it feeds into the culture a little bit, this minister for men argument.

In my mind, I think there should be a minister for mental health, which would be all encompassing. I mean, you've got something like 7 million children waiting for prescriptions for mental health at the moment. It's a crisis that's endemic throughout the country, not specific to men. And I think, you know, a lot of ministers kind of bandy this about to sort of, I'm sorry, but make an enemy out of women, I think. Not you, and I don't think your book is. I don't accept that. I don't think it is to make an enemy.

If we looked at during COVID, men were literally more likely to die from COVID. And I don't really want to cast myself as a meninist or one of these guys from the manosphere because that's not who i am but i do find it interesting that sometimes the arguments tend to throw it but who was doing all the work during covid you know a lot of the time if you looked into people's households it was the women who were taking on the laundry the school uh the school care all of that i'm not disputing any of that what i'm saying that there are specific issues that men face that might warrant specific attention i mean literally the biggest killer of of men under 50 is suicide that is an arresting statistic and if that doesn't warrant specific attention mental health is an umbrella issue i have to say that it's also

because women are unsuccessful that is a lot of that is feeds into that statistic but it feels like it just doesn't feel like you've got any space for this idea that men might have unique challenges to face. And the problem is, even as I'm saying this in my mind, it's like I've got out the violin and I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be this guy because that's part of the problem is because you're encouraged at one level is men need to talk about their problems more. And then the moment you do it, you're like, all right, not, not, not quite so often. They're not quite so loud. And, um, Dan asked Lawrence Fox for his reaction to her dismissiveness of the male suicide crisis. And he said how unattractive he found her and, quote, who would want to shag that?

British. The meltdown in the UK has dominated the papers for the last five days. Lawrence has been suspended from GB that we believe he's going to be fired. Dan Wooden, who just hosted Lawrence on there, is suspended and could be fired. Then Calvin Robinson, who's an amazing commentator, he too is, I think, a minister. He just made the comment of this is wrong. You shouldn't be, you shouldn't be canceling Dan and or Lawrence. What's happening here? GP suspended him. He got suspended all Owen for, you know, because these guys had an instinct that what this woman said was repugnant and that her being so dismissive of here in the United

States, it's 35,000 men a year who complete, uh, you know, forgive the way of putting it successfully, a suicide. They found it disgusting. And Lawrence handled it in a somewhat crass attempt at humor. And now his whole life is being ruined. I mean, he's they're protesting him. He's everybody's withdrawing from him. He's being threatened. His kids are being threatened. This guy, all he did was make a crass joke about a woman whose callousness has gone completely unmentioned and uncared about in the whole debate. So what do you make of that? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't defend his comment per se, but what I would say is this, the sins of men are amplified today. And if a man does something wrong in public and a woman says something that is callous

and unkind, as she clearly did, then the man's sin seems to count five X that of the woman's sin. And so we're fundamentally in a culture, Megan, where men are not treated equally to women. And there's actually a whole narrative behind this with regard to wokeness, which argues that because of past injustices, because of the patriarchy, which has dominated society in the past, now men are getting their own time in the penalty box. And it's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing because this is going to right the wrongs systemically that have dominated in the West for a long, long time. The problem

with all of this, aside from just the patent unfairness of it, is that when boys and young men are told that they are toxic and treated in public as if they are toxic, this has terrible effects, not just for boys and young men, but for all of us, because it causes them to think and believe what they are told. It's so dark. I mean, I worry about it a lot because I've got three kids, two of whom are boys and they're young, you know, they're, they're 14 and 10 and they have a strong father, which is half the game. We go to church every Sunday, which I think also really helps. Um, but I don't, and we now have chosen a good school that doesn't tell them they're bad just because they're boys, nevermind white boys, you know, they're getting positive inputs about their possibilities in life.

But in so many other schools, it's a very different message. So where, what is, do you think the most troubling input on the messaging to young boys today? Well, I think if you teach boys that being assertive and aggressive and taking risks and not showing emotion and hard situations. I think if you teach boys that these kinds of behaviors, which are typically masculine behaviors, and I would even go so far as to say biblical masculine behaviors, if you teach them that all of that is bad and a sign of their toxicity, here's the deal, Megan, boys are going to believe that. They're going to believe you when you say you really need to be more like a girl. And that's basically how boys and young men are treated today. They need to be boyiferates. And this is a tremendous problem.

It really goes against the nature and the wiring of a boy. Boys are made by God for his glory, just as girls are made by God for his glory. And boys actually are wired to be aggressive and assertive in a proper fashion. They need shepherding and correcting. But on average, boys have about 2,000 to 3,000 percent more testosterone than girls. That explains why boys, when you look around at them on a playground, if we still have playgrounds in 2023, want to compete and have physical contact and have this massive quest that they're on, even in the 20 minutes of recess. That's because of the wiring of boys. That's because God made boys that way. He made boys for action. Adam was made, Genesis 2.15, to work and protect the Garden of Eden. So this is in a boy. You can try to take it out of a boy. You can stick a needle in his neck and try to extract the manhood from a boy.

But again, this is how boys are made. I went to the high school football game with, you know, my kids are in elementary school and middle school, but I went to the high school football game with, you know, my kids are in elementary school and middle school, but I went to the high school football game on Saturday. It's actually really sweet. Cause my little guy was one of the water boys each week. They take some of the fourth graders and let them be the water boys for the varsity. It was adorable. Um, but I was looking at the kids in the stands and they have like sort of the area of the stands where the ninth through 12th graders cheer. And it was like, you could see these young boys, you know, let's say 14 through 18 coming into this testosterone driven period of life. And they looked amazing. They were they were so full of enthusiasm, you know, as killer be killed on, you know,

for the football team. And they were cheering and they were they had a door that they destroyed. We lost. It was sad. But anyway. And then you had the girls who were very different. You could see they did not have all that testosterone running through their veins, but they had their cute little outfits on and they all were beautiful and they were sitting there and they had a different role to play. I feel like the feminists would come to this and be like, toxic, toxic, toxic. And you're bad too for wanting to look attractive

to the boys. And they want some sort of merged version of these two. Yeah, and that's what's proliferating on college campuses today. You think about what they call the skittle hair phenomenon where you've got orange or pink hair and everyone's wearing the same weird baggy clothes and no one's quite sure of who anyone is. You're in my native New England. I'm from Maine. And so

it warms my heart listening to the earlier conversation to hear you speaking so positively about New England. And I love that even in New England, there's not a lot of amazing football players produced from that region. Let that be said. But nonetheless, you got Friday night lights or Saturday night lights all across America. And it is Megan, this testimony, this testament to enduring manhood and womanhood. And it is a good thing fundamentally for boys to have that native instinct for competition and to be a hero and to compete in, in big contests. And not every boy, of course, is going to be a quarterback. He's going to be, you know, the sixth touchdown throwing quarterback. But even for boys to have a role in those kind of good, bigger realities than they are, instead of leading a kind of plastic artificial life on screens,

you know, having a little harem on OnlyFans and, you know, cultivating your own little curated quest for meaning and adventure in a video game and never talking to anybody, never going outside of your basement. Our culture and society wants young men to fail. It's actively cheering for them to fail. And it wants young men and boys to lead plastic lives. It wants the rise of women and the decline of men. I can't tell you why it's not good for anybody, but this is what the woke leftists among us want. And what I'm trying to say in this book, The War on Men, is we actually want those kind of cultures that you were just talking about, where boys are trained

into something bigger than themselves, where they hurt, where they take risks, where there's real danger at hand, but that's good for them. It grows them up from boyhood to manhood. So there's all sorts of good that we find as a common grace witness in Friday night lights. I mean, what happens is more and more now, and there was just a report about this, about how if you look at all the major corporations, the number of white males who are getting hired or just men at all is down at like 6%. I got to get the actual numbers. So don't hold me to that exact stat. But I think that's what it was because we're so focused on diversity, equity, inclusion. And that means and women are in there, too. So women kind of go first. And then if you have any sort of

identity that gets you into the special box, you go next. And left at the bottom are men, and in particular, white men. And so they're in this place where, what do they do? Should they work hard in school? Because what's going to happen when they get out? A lot of these guys want to go in finance. Maybe their dads are in finance. It's a no. Good luck. What bank is going to hire you? Their focus are obsessed with diversity, and that means someone other than you. It means a woman. It means a person of color, not a white guy, not a white kid, no matter how smart. Well, all of it is so dejecting. And that leads me to this. It was an Axios report that the Daily Caller did a great

piece on called Men Leaving the Workforce is Not a win for women. They were taking issue with this Axios framing of the stat that men are leaving the workforce in record numbers. And the spin was that this was somehow a win for women's equality. The writer there, the reporter, Mary Rook, concluding that seven million men in the prime of their life opting out of the labor market, according to a report that had been released by Marco Rubio, this is not a good thing. The lack of available upward mobility is soul crushing. It's soul crushing for these guys, and it's not good for women either. What do you make of it? Oh, I completely agree. It's terrible when men are not called to be strong. And I, of course, believe ultimately in being called to be strong in the grace of God. You have to die to yourself as a man or a woman, know that you are weak, but that Christ died on the cross and rose again for your salvation. And that's when truly a man finds the key to being strong. There are job difficulties all around us. The society is working against boys

and young men. If you're active and assertive and aggressive, if you just have white skin, so to speak, and you're a man today, you're in the cultural penalty box. You may not do anything bad per se in public, but you're already in the cultural penalty box. And so this means that many men find themselves in desperate circumstances today, and they have no hope, Megan, to entwine that factor with the workforce participation. We're basically at the level of the Great Depression, by the way, in terms of male workforce rates in prime working years today, as I show in The War on Men. If you entwine that with the spiritual state of men, you just recognize that men basically are hopeless.

We're throwing stats out. We're talking this through. But if you want just one word on the predicament of modern men, especially we can say modern white men, if you look at stats in terms of suicides, not that this conversation is solely about them, but they're hopeless. They don't know where to go. They don't have anyone to turn to. Even many churches don't strengthen them in terms of the broader mainline denominations out there. So men are in a desperate condition, but here's the deal. This is actually a great moment. God loves to redeem us when we're in darkness. God loves to do work in the shadows, in the corners. And that's where many men are. Men are dropping out. Boys are becoming school shooters, public shooters. Men are disappearing from

colleges and universities at seven times the rate of women today in the post-lockdown era. But what I'm here to say and what my book, The War on Men, says above all is not that this is a terrible situation alone. It is. Actually, I'm here to say, but God is at work today and it is in your valley that God can find you and you can be changed and you can be strengthened and you can be transformed by the grace of God in Jesus Christ. I know not everybody watching this or listening to this is a Christian as I am, but I am daring to do something, Megan, whether one agrees with me or not, that very few people do. And that is believe in men. I don't just want to critique them.

I want to put an arm around their shoulder and say, you can change, you can grow. There is hope for you. But that's a revolutionary message today. What do you think is the difference between what you think, what you see as masculinity and what society is telling us masculinity is today? I think fundamentally, I hear a biblical text like 1 Kings 2, 2, where David says to Solomon, be strong and show yourself a man. And I hear in that really what manhood is called to be. You're called to be strong in God. You're called to be strong against evil. You're a strong force in our culture today, Megan, against evil, though not a man. But that's what men are called to be strong in God. You're called to be strong against evil. You're a strong force in our culture today, Megan, against evil, though not a man. But that's what men are called to be strong against

evil and strong for the good. And I'm thankful there for you as well in a common grace sense out there in the public square. But that's what men actually have to lead in being, not to the exclusion of women, but men are called to be strong. And that speaks to even what we were talking about a few minutes ago. Boys don't grow up wanting to be weak. Boys grow up wanting to prove themselves. Boys grow up wanting a test. But our culture has taken that away from boys and men. Our culture has trained boys and men that where you want a cause greater than yourself, you're acting out your toxicity. And that's the rub. That's the rub. Our culture sees strong men as the problem. And I see, and I would argue the Bible sees strong men

as the solution, not to the exclusion of women, but that's the key. If you get men to lead themselves, then they're going to take responsibility. If you get men to lead a home, a family, then the children and the wife is going to flourish, at least in position to. If you get men to lead in churches, those churches will be protected and strong. If you get men to lead and be strong in the culture and society, then everything's better. But here's the thing, our culture is saying strong men are the problem. And that means, as Jordan Peterson and others have pointed out, that evil men aren't going to go away when all men become soft. Evil men are going to multiply and there's going to be no one to face them down. So we're in dangerous times and we've got a lot of work to call men up,

to call them to become something greater than they are in themselves. I worry about the younger generation a lot because I went to this Turning Point event in July with Charlie Kirk and met a lot of young college students, in particular young women, who were alarmed at the lack of strong men their age, at the number of, I jokingly said later, man buns coming into their social circle, you know, guys who don't want to even look like men, nevermind, act like men. And I don't understand how you would be attracted to that. And they're not, these women were not, I mean, they're looking, they don't need, you know, somebody to date my references straight out of the film Porky's to come and be

their male partner, but they need a man. And then I look around at the women my age and I see so many examples of men who are strong in so many different ways, you know, who are smart, who are kind, who are, who are caretaking toward their wives could be in the financial department, could be in a totally different way. It could be intellectually they're stimulating and they're challenging and they, you know, make the woman think and they press her to be, you know, smarter and better and her best self, all those things. I could think of a million of them. But I don't think we're having as much the crisis of like. I can't tell who's the who's the man in the relationship.

We're not having as much of that. Like, I don't even know. These men are being told that to lean into true manhood and masculinity and strength is to make themselves toxic and unhirable and undateable. That's exactly what they're being told. And they're receiving that message. That's what you have to understand. And that's why this book is challenging strongly men to kill their sin in Christ and change by God's grace. But it also, as I said earlier, is putting an arm around these young men that you're talking about it just a minute ago and saying, hey, I know you've been targeted. I know you have no idea what it means

to be a man. I know a lot of you out there, speaking of the broad mass of young men, you're from divorced homes. You're from broken homes. You didn't have a dad literally in the home with you. Or if you did have a dad in the home with you, he may very well not have said a blessed word to you about what it means to be a man. So you can't go full kind of Bobby Knight basketball coach and just blister men today as if they're idiots and goofballs, just as the culture says they are. You call men out. They need shepherding and changing and correcting. Absolutely. But ultimately, what you're trying to do is help them. You're trying to help them be strong. You're trying to help recover what it means to be a man, to look like a man,

to dress like a man, to present themselves like a man, to carry themselves like a man. Referencing Peterson again. That's why so many young men have flocked to Jordan Peterson. As I read him, he's not a Christian, so I can't ultimately point to his ideas, but he has stood for a lot of things that are lost. He's dapper. He speaks clearly and authoritatively. He's got a presence about him. Boys and men are craving that father figure. They've lost it in their actual context. And that's a tragedy.

You know, it's funny. I think about my own relationship with my husband and he's from the mainline Philadelphia and he's Presbyterian. So he's aloof. But I always describe him as the perfect amount of aloof, but I'm joking about it. It's true. And it's something that I like. It definitely works for me because he's not overly emotional. I didn't want somebody overly emotional. I don't find that attractive in a man. I, I need to be the crier. I mean, I've been with Doug for, I don't know, together 17 going on 18 years. I've only seen him even tear up twice and once was at the death of his father. Um, I like that.

I don't like, so how do you thread the needle between raising a boy or finding a man who is empathetic to people's pain and to tragedy and loss, but is not a blubbering male version of a teenage girl. I completely agree with you about men not being women, not just in terms of their body, because there are only two sexes that God has made, male and female, men and women. Amen. But also, there's been a little bit of discussion about that recently, thanks to you. So good job. But but also in terms of how men actually live and present themselves, that's huge. We need to have boys understood that it's understand that it's good to grow up and be

a man and be a gentleman even. Yeah, he puts his boots on, you know, and gets dirty or whatever, you know, on the weekend and the driving around in the mud or whatever, but he also knows how to be a gentleman. And the same is true for girls and women. Of course, ultimately for me as a Christian standing on the Bible, this goes to Jesus. Jesus was not one thing. Jesus is presented as one thing in a lot of churches today. And this is part of why I think men fail to connect with Jesus. They hear about only one side of him. Jesus is both tough and tender in the Bible. Jesus is the one in Matthew 19 in the New Testament who calls little children to himself and basically treats them with affection and kindness. And his disciples are like, don't bother Jesus with these kids. And Jesus is like, let the little children come to me.

That's what a strong man should be. He's kind. He's warm. He's gracious. He's fun. There's a sparkle in his eye. But Jesus was also tough. He made a whip of cords in John 2, and he chased money lenders, money changers,

marketeers out of the temple. And so Jesus isn't one thing. He's many things. He's strong for us. He dies on the cross for our salvation. So he looks weak there, but in reality, he's being strong for us. He's doing what none of us can do. He's washing our sins clean. That is a picture, I believe, Megan, of what men are called to be. Men aren't one thing. Men are tough. We are the ones who give our wives space to be emotional. That's what women should be at some level. Honestly, that's how women are tough. We are the ones who give our wives space to be emotional.

That's what women should be at some level. Honestly, that's how women are wired. They're nurturers in a way that we're not. That's part of what makes us beautiful. It is. But we're also called to be tender men and get down on the floor and have a tea party with our little girl or wrestle with our boy and not break his arm. So we're many things.

But what role do you think the me too movement has played in all of this? Because, you know, I've said before, I really think like the overreach of that movement has done some real damage, not to say that the beginnings of it didn't do some good, just, you know, you shouldn't have to sleep with your boss to get in a promotion at work to put it very simply. But I do, like I think about beyond me too, in the workplace setting, you know, on the college campuses now, you have to get a permission slip before you try to kiss a girl, you know, nevermind go beyond kissing. Like these guys are, they're terrified. And that is part of manhood, the desire for a woman, you know, that's

kind of why the way that we keep the human race going, but they're being shamed out of it. They absolutely are being shamed out of it. And what we have to do is recover a proper training of boys and young men. And you need fathers in the mix here. That's that's what's missing from so many of these conversations is engaged, involved fathers. Boys have no idea, honestly, most boys. Some boys have a little bit of game, maybe even strong game, so to speak, but a lot of boys need coaching and how to even approach a girl, let alone use verbal communication with her when they are in those teenage years. There are a few things more terrifying than try to win a girl's heart. And so young men and boys need coaching in these kind of areas, but they're not, they're not getting it anymore. And where they do approach

the opposite sex and try to talk to a girl or build a connection with her. And, you know, let's say even the college years to situate it there when a lot of young men are starting to have that desire to to marry even in due course, they're they're terrified that even showing interest in a girl is going to be labeled toxic. So this is why it is so essential that we have fathers teach these things. And fathers and mothers both teach young women that it is a good thing for these kinds of things to happen as God leads and allows. And this is also why we need churches, by the way, this is why you need contexts where you can raise and disciple boys into young men and young men into men and preserve these places where it's okay to be a man, not even okay, but good to be a man. But if you weaponize

all interactions between the opposite sexes, you're only going to make this terrible, not just for guys, but for girls alike. And that's why the War on Men, this book, people are going to think, oh, you're writing a book for men. I am writing a book for men. I'm also writing a book to try and help women because women are the ones who, who, you know, struggle and suffer the most when men embrace that plastic life on a screen and live an artificial life. Yeah. That gosh, that is so true. I was just thinking about the effect that online pornography is having on, on men in the same way. Like used to be a man would have a desire for a woman and he'd have to

learn how to woo her, how to, you know, swoop her off her feet. And, and that was something that was worthwhile. And then ultimately when they, you know, got in bed together, it would be magical potentially. Now it's like this weird, disgusting, false version of what, you know, sex is and a relationship is that can be the very first introduction young boys get to sex, thus coloring their entire picture of the whole ballgame in a way that's very damaging. Yeah, you don't have to live with a woman you're viewing on pornography in an understanding way. That's in the New Testament in 1 Peter 3. The Bible calls every man, Christian man, to get a PhD in understanding womanhood.

And it is a lifelong degree system, as I'm finding out myself, married to a lovely, wonderful woman almost 18 years in who never fails to surprise me and delight me. And I'm trying to figure some things out and I fail to live with her well. So there's this relationship of forgiveness and growth and maturity, and it is not a boring or dull pursuit. But if you reduce a woman, especially a woman you're sexually interested in to pixels on a screen or whatever, you don't even realize how much that is deforming you. It's not just that it's wrong, sinful to look at that woman naked who's not your wife. It is that you're learning to treat her effectively as a wife and you don't have to do any death to self.

You don't have to do any listening. You don't have to practice any empathy. You don't have to hug her and pull her close when she needs that. You don't have a honey-do list. You don't have anything except, honestly, this is a strong phrase to say, but a virtual sex slave. That's what you have. And that's what our culture is selling men. That's what our culture encourages men to embrace. And that's what I am altogether dead level against. I believe that most young men, not all, but most young men need to win an actual flesh and blood woman's heart. And it's not easy. It's not boring. It calls for a lot of growth and maturity and repentance on our part as men, and also the part of women, but that's God's design. And that's for God's glory. One man, one woman for life. Yeah, I guess so exactly right. I worry so much because it's like, that's not real. You know, that's just not a real relationship in any way, shape or form. And also all the studies have shown that you spend all this time looking at internet porn,

you're not going to be able to achieve orgasm when you're actually with a partner. It's gonna change the way you perform. It's gonna undermine your ability to perform. Do you really want that, guys? Is that worth it? Because that's a real game changer. Not to mention that could interfere

with your ability to have children, all the stuff. It's just there's so many risks in going that route. So, all right, so consider going to, I mean, for us, it would be mass or services on Sunday, but like, so bring religion back into your life. Fathers try to be more present though. The data show that a lot of fathers are more present now than they ever have been. You know, obviously we still have a problem in the black community of absentee fathers and, you know, not even being in the home at all. That's just a truth

and something that we need to deal with as a society. But what do you think, like, what else can people do and what, what else can parents do in trying to, you know, raise strong men without creating toxicity and without, you know, like they have to function in this world. Yeah. Yeah. There's all kinds of things we need to do. We need to recover just fundamentally understanding the goodness of being a boy or being a man. We need fathers and mothers who articulate that to their sons. We need homes. This should be the most bipartisan issue there is, Megan. This should be the most bipartisan issue there is addressing fatherlessness and the need to help boys and girls alike in these kind of homes that should bring people together from all sides of the aisle. It's not currently doing that. But fundamentally, if we would tackle that issue of fatherlessness, that would be a massive help to our society.

We also need men to step up in their communities. We need men to continue being teachers and coaches and pastors and all sorts of authority figures. We need men to be strong. We need men like Jacob Alvarado in Uvalde, Texas, who a year ago, when there was a public shooter in a school, did not heed the call to stand down, but instead grabbed a big shotgun and went in and defended and protected a ton of little kids, precious children made in God's image, and a lot of adult teachers as well. We need that kind of man, Megan, because our culture is saying to men and to boys in general, step back, lean back. And our culture is still saying to women, lean in and take the reins, fight with your man and overcome him. In the Bible, there's no fight between the sexes in God's design. This crops in because of a real historical fall in Eden, but that's not the way God wants it. God wants men to step up and put their life on the line for women and children. So again, when we train our boys to do this in all sorts of

ways and all sorts of contexts, it is not just men who will benefit. It's women and children who will benefit. But this requires us to build communities and homes and churches and societies where men are not considered toxic. We have to reject that in some in total and where we train boys to see that their God-given wiring needs to be changed and shepherded, but it's good wiring. So, so we've got a lot of work to do. Good news though, the grace of God is sufficient for these things. I'll tell you that having a community that helps really does make a difference. You know, we left this extremely woke community in school difference. You know, we left this extremely woke community in school on, you know, the Upper West Side of Manhattan. And now I'll

give you one example. So now we love, love our, our schools and our, at our boys' school. Um, my one boy was on the team the other day at a practice and one of the boys had his shorts pulled up super high, like really high, or he's showing a lot of thigh. And the coach said to him, do you have a sister? And he goes, yeah. And he goes, give her her shorts back. This is amazing. That's how it used to be right. A little gentle nudging by other strong men to let the young guys know these are the lanes. These are the alleys that we have to stay between. Yeah. And that's most of the work that we do as fathers and men and authority figures in boys lives.

Most of it isn't yelling level 10 red faced. Most of it is is what you said. That's a great term nudges. It's little comments. You see this, you mentioned man buns earlier. I'm very glad to go on public record about man buns as I despise them and I see them against the way God made men. Men aren't supposed to look like women. You're supposed to have long hair. I'm not supposed to have long hair, I believe. And I believe there's a real goodness in letting you be a woman, letting my wife be a woman, letting me be a man, letting my son live into manhood. My son, you know, is influenced. All these boys are by the short shorts thing. And I know they did it in the 80s, Megan, but I'm just trying to be a voice, a humble little voice in the wind saying, let's go a little more 90s in that respect. Let's have some baggy shorts. We don't need these super short shorts, but, uh, but I know I'm marching into the teeth of the culture in a lot of respects here. It really is amazing. I, uh, it's not for me, but yeah, I've always said,

I want to be the pretty one. Uh, I should be the pretty one in the relationship. Uh, that should be a hardcore rule. I mean, it's not that Doug's not attractive. He's a very good looking man, but he's not pretty. And I wouldn't recommend marrying a pretty man. Uh, it's so nice to meet you. All right. So once again, I want to make sure that the, the, the audience knows it's called the war on men, why society hates them and why we need them. Uh, and it's been a pleasure meeting you. Oh, and thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. Great to talk with you. Yeah. All the best. I just want to tell you that, um, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be here tomorrow. I'm taking the day off because my friend died over the weekend. Totally unexpected. 46-year-old, mother of two young boys, beautiful wife. We don't know what happened yet. She died at home. And I don't want to get ahead of her family and the eulogy and the service. But that's the reason I'm taking the day off.

And it just is a reminder, as with any loss, hold your loved ones near. Make sure you look around that you are living the life you want to be living. You know, that God forbid, God called your number tomorrow morning. You are okay with the way you were in this world, your relationships, your core relationships. You had said the things that you needed to say. If you need the reassessment on how you're going through life, this kind of thing can do that for you. It's doing it for me right now. And for once I'm relieved, you know, that I look around and I've set my life up to

be with the people I love the most. I hope you've done the same. I hope you know, I'm thinking about you. I'm grateful to all of you for helping me do that. If it weren't for you, I couldn't be doing this. But if you could spare a prayer for my friends, her husband and her boys, I sure would appreciate it. Thank you all so much for listening.

And I'll be back on Wednesday.