The Megyn Kelly Show - Harry and Meghan FLEE America, with Maureen Callahan, and Bombshell New Karmelo Anthony Texts, with Aronberg, Merchant, and Aidala | Ep. 1383

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Megyn Kelly is joined by Maureen Callahan, host of "the Nerve," to discuss Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's plans to return to the UK, why they're leaving America after failing to become big celebrities, speculation about marital problems, Meghan's desire for royal status, why Harry's sudden change of heart about the UK is so striking given his past comments about never bringing his family back to Britain, Harry and Meghan's attempt to blame Trump for their exit from the U.S., the truth being exposed about the grifters as they flee America, what the return to the UK could mean for the royal family, why Prince William reportedly doesn't want this to happen, Meghan's obsession with celebrity and royalty, and more. Then Arthur Aidala, host of “The Arthur Aidala Power Hour,” and Dave Aronberg and Ashleigh Merchant, co-hosts of "The MK True Crime Show," join to discuss newly-revealed texts and threats in the Karmelo Anthony case, claims he broke up with his girlfriend on the morning of the fatal stabbing, why the new evidence could explain the defense's decision not to Karmelo him testify, whether people might be charged in Hayden Panettiere's death, why it's noteworthy for the DEA to be looking into the case, the ex-boyfriend and Panettiere's potential drug use, Hayden Panettiere's mother's cold-hearted statement about her daughter following the release of her memoir, her detached comments after her daughter's death, the dueling prosecution and defense arguments over Lindsay Clancy's mental state, the standard it will take for a "postpartum psychosis" ruling, whether she should ultimately be sentenced to prison or a mental health institution, and more.   Subscribe to Maureen's show The Nerve: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nerve-with-maureen-callahan/id1808684702 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4kR07GQGQAJaMNtLc9Cg2o YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thenerveshow?sub_confirmation=1 Substack: https://thenerveshow.com/   Subscribe to MK True Crime to find ALL the shows: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mk-true-crime/id1829831499 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4o80I2RSC2NvY51TIaKkJW YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MKTrueCrime?sub_confirmation=1   Aidala- https://am970theanswer.com/radioshow/the-arthur-aidala-power-hour Aronberg- https://substack.com/@davearonberg Merchant- https://x.com/AshleighMerchan   SimpliSafe: Visit https://simplisafe.com/MEGYN to claim 50% off any new system! Relief Factor: Reclaim your mobility and celebrate your freedom from aches this year by grabbing your $17.76 3-week QuickStart at https://ReliefFactor.com or by calling 800-4-RELIEF. Ethos: Protect your family’s future with fast, online life insurance from Ethos—get a free quote in minutes at https://Ethos.com/MK Birch Gold: Text MK to 989898 and get your free info kit on gold     Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKelly Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShow Instagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShow Facebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East. Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. Today, two important self-deportations that can unite all of America. This is the first thing we've been able to agree upon in over a decade. Megan and Harry are leaving. Praise Jesus. They're going. Get back to the UK. Go become somebody. else's problem. We're sick of you. We have enough weirdos, self-narcissistic, obsessed Americans already. The country's full. It's saturated. Go home, Harry. We never wanted you here to begin with. If we had to have one of the kids of Prince Charles, Ben, Prince Charles, we all wanted William. No one wanted you. I don't know how we got stuck with Megan anyway. We had safely ejected her to Canada, then you came along, took her over to UK, that was fine. It was a hot mess for you,

but we were still living our beautiful lives. And now finally, she's going back to the UK. And we all know why. There's many speculations out there about why, but I'll tell you why. Because they can't stand not being adored and famous and welcomed everywhere and getting the reservations they want and the attention they want. We want privacy. We all knows a lie. and they think that they'll have an elevated status over in the UK and that's so well their children. They want those children to be brought up as the little prince and princess they are. And they know that the British public actually, you know, believes in that crap. Unlike us, no one here is treating Archie and Lilibet like royalty.

No one. We don't do royalty here in America. We fought a whole war to get away from those people. and these children are not going to be treated as anything special. Sorry, especially in Montecito, where if you're the child of George Clooney, you're closer to royalty than if you're Megan Markle's kid. No one gives two dams. So this is my own belief.

This is why they're going. They're going back to a place where they can feel special, and they can get reservations at any restaurant, and the tabloid attention will pick back up because it's withered down to an arid dryness now. And they can't stand it. She can't stand it, but he can't stand it either. He's just as petty and small as she is. You know, yesterday on the show, yeah, it was yesterday, right?

It was a Wednesday. Like, all the days are blending. We had on Doug Brunt. He was our second hour. And if you are listening to the podcast, we're watching us on YouTube, you didn't see it because it was something we do in August every year. just for the serious xm listeners because we have a great relationship with serious xm we love them and so we give them like a special feature once a year where we do a series that's just for the

serious xm audience and by the way if you're not subscribed to serious xm you should totally do it i love serious xm i listen to it all the time it's got so many great things the app is good if you if you miss this show if you want to keep up even on cable like see what the weirdos are saying you can always pull up somebody show they've got virtually all of them on there anyway it's a great app and um our our get closer series yesterday featured Doug. And I love introducing people to Doug because Doug is great. He's smart. He's charming.

He's just easy, you know, to be around and to listen to, not to mention a look at. And I adore him. And you can tell he's a great guy when you talk to him. Like I need only introduce you to Doug for you to love Doug. These two, like I can't imagine what it's like when they have to introduce the other. to somebody who doesn't know them. Because, of course, they're thinking like, oh, my God, Prince Harry. And then they meet him and see what a hot mess he is.

And by the way, he doesn't even have proper grammar? You'd think a Prince of England would be able to, you know, do subject verb agreement. He can't. He's actually kind of an idiot, which is ironic because they apparently are sending their children back to the UK because they want them to go to UK schools because Harry's so enamored with the education he had. I think you need to rethink that, Harry. and can you imagine introducing somebody to Megan Markle as your wife who's bullied everybody who's nasty who snaps at our own friends as we saw in that With Love Megan show?

So it's like these it's only a matter of time before this relationship is over. We all know that. And now they're going to be the problem of the UK friends. And you know what? Part of me, my heart goes out to them because they don't really deserve this. They're already dealing with like a lunatic government that's cracking down on free speech. the influx of radical Muslims who are trying to chastise them for wearing tank tops. I mean, this is a lot.

They've already had to deal with a lot. The King's got cancer. Princess Kate had cancer. They don't need this. Other form of cancer coming back to the UK. They should go back to Canada. That would be a solution we could all live with. Okay.

That's my initial take on this. We are in just a bit going to get to a packed Kelly's court on Lindsay Clancy. What's happening in that trial where the something's happening with the jury. today. We'll get into it. And also Hayden Penitier as we're learning that the DEA is now joining the investigation of this case. Didn't I tell you? Didn't I tell you? That's what happened right before the Matthew Perry people got charged. The DEA swooped in and before we knew it, four or five people got charged. That's where this is going. Guarantee it. Okay, but we're going to get into first before we do any of that. Just a quick programming note here. We've got the latest episode of our

MK Live series. It's available on YouTube for those who join our members only. It's a new feature on YouTube that you can offer to your fans. And you head out over to YouTube.com slash Megan Kelly. Make sure you're on the YouTube app if you're using your phone. Otherwise, you won't see the little join button. But if you use a YouTube app and then you will see the join button, you hit join to subscribe. And there you will get access to all sorts of exclusive content, including live discussions with yours truly. We're going to have one coming up on Monday night where we're going to get into MK Confidential and other subjects, but we're going to have sort of our book club version of MK Confidential where we talk about the crime series and your thoughts on the

cases and, you know, how they turned out. Anyway, that's going to happen on Monday night. We'll have more on that on Monday. But you got to be a member. Got to be a member of members only. It's $6.99 a month. It's not that much. Whatever. If you don't want to, you don't have to. But I think it's actually going to be really fun. We already had one of the these Q&As, and it was really fun. The tour documentary episode is called Backstage Pass, and that's exactly what it gives you, the inside look, and what really happened behind the scenes on our tour last year. Oh, it's quite a behind-the-scenes look, too. Features a broken guitar, burns to yours truly and Abby, my assistant, and burns in more ways than one. We also get into my

attempts to mediate the hatred between Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson. How'd that work out for me? Here's what you're going to find. A little preview. This goes out there and lets a rip everything. It's having so much fun. This is the United fucking States of America. Out there, time keep what she thinks every single day. She's not hiding. She would have withered on the vine at Legacy Media. This is the real media. I feel like it brings me joy being on the road with her. It would be really good to make sure.

We all got on the motorcycles. I knew what my legs need to do on a motorcycle. Megan did not. She's like, ah, like, I see like the pain in her smile. John Rich was walking up the stairs with his guitar and fell. My boot caught the last step and just, bam, just snapped the head right off. So now we're going to scramble.

She's trying to find replace the guitar. My brother Pete, out there with you. Peter, are you in the front here? Right here, right here. He absolutely tortured me as a child. My mother will tell you all the time. We talk to your sister, and have her slowdown on the potty language. I do read all the emails.

I have a general understanding that while maybe 15% of the audience feels that way, 85% are with me. She told me once at drinks that I wrote something bad about her, and I said, oh my God, I feel terrible that I wrote that. I can't believe it. I really feel like my two brothers. are arguing. I'm not in politics to be friends with people.

Buzz off. Yes. I kind of gave up on forging a piece between them. He just turned that away towards. It was just so good to be with the people that I spend two hours with every day. See a reasonable right-wingers. So many fun and some fraught moments in this episode. It's going to be available right now for subscribers.

of our MK members only. So head on over to YouTube.com slash Megan Kelly and join now. All right, we want to bring in someone who you just saw in that little trailer. Maureen Callahan, she's host of the hit show, The Nerve, on our MK Media podcast network. In the U.S., a break-in happens every 26 seconds. Most systems only alert you after an intruder is already inside your home. By then the damage is done. But then they're simply safe. With their new outdoor camera series two and advanced, to AI. SimpliSafe does not just watch as somebody tries to get into your home. It acts. If a threat is detected, U.S.-based live agents can intervene to deter intruders before they cross the threshold. I just love this so much. Going on vacation, you can check your feed and know that professionals

are monitoring your home. Plus, the setup is a breeze. Get your system running in under 30 minutes. No long-term contracts. SimpliSafe earns your business every day rather than trying to lock you, into a trap. It's elite protection that fits your life, not the other way around. SimplySafe has an exclusive discount for you too. Right now, get 50% off your new system by visiting simplysafe.com slash Megan. That's half off at S-I-M-P-L-I-Safe.com slash Megan. There's no safe like SimplySafe. Maureen, this is huge news about these two grifters. Why do you think they're leaving after telling us for six years. They couldn't stand the UK. They made their escape to Montecito, the propaganda of that with love, Megan, trying to show us this miraculous, perfect

life that they had built for themselves out in one of the most beautiful areas on Earth. They had everything was perfect, Maureen. Why are they leaving? I have so many theories, Megan. So many theories. When I was thinking about all of this in advance of of coming on to talk to you. It occurred to me, by the way, that this is personal, at least for me, because the very first time I did your show, and I think you had just gone to video, I was asked to come on because of a Megan and Harry blowup story.

And I believe it was the story in which Megan said to the cut that she was told by a member of the Lion King that when she married into Harry's family, they danced in the streets in South Africa like Mandela was freed. Oh, that's never forget it. It's seared in my memory and who knew? A friendship would be born from that. Megan and Harry, at least, they brought you and I together.

You know, I can be thankful for that. For that, we're truly grateful. I can be truly grateful for that. I think many things are going on. So the reporting is, the reporting that the Daily Mail has is that Charles himself was blindsided by this news. You know, they were just, in the UK. Harry just had that meeting with the king at Highgrove. The reporting is that he never

mentioned a peep to the king. Now that's the reporting. Could there be a deeper play at work here, where that's the official story? Because we also know this marriage seems to be in trouble. They professionally separated their brands about a year ago and announced they were doing so. Here in the United States, Harry and Megan have been making appearances separately. together separate from each other, excuse me, four months now. We had reporting over at the nerve. Lady C came on with her

explosive report, multiply sourced. Heard it. Harry's in love with another woman. Which she said, yeah. And that other woman is in love somebody else. And there was a question raised about whether Megan actually carried those babies or used a surrogate. This is

something we've seen in the press for a long time. It's not really behind the move or anything. It was just very interesting. Lady C. was suggesting she'd heard speculation along the same lines. Of course, Megan and Harry say that she carried their babies. But, I mean, it would be right on brand with this vain woman to not want to do anything to her precious body. Whatever. That's an aside. If he's in love with somebody else and they're leaving because what he wants to get the children back in the UK before things split up so that he doesn't have to deal with an across-the-pond relationship, you know,

they're there. He'll be in better legal standing to say, you have to stay here. But I don't know because Maureen, they're keeping the Montecito mansion. For now. And so that has some people thinking she's either not really going to go with him. Like this could actually be the split where for all intents and purposes, like she's actually going to stay here, even though we're pretending she's leaving. Who knows? Well, I read this morning that there is now, as always with the Sussex is, nothing is clean. There's no controlled messaging that's seamless.

The latest reporting is that Megan's going to give it a try for six months. She's not all in. Now, you know, when they went back and Harry had that meeting with Charles at Highgrove and the reporting also was that Megan was made to wait in the hallway for quite some time before she could join her husband with the king. They're running out of money. I don't know how they're going to finance a non-royal home. home, a home not provided by the British royal family, right? Is this part of a larger play to get Harry back,

to get the children, once you enroll children at such young ages in school, you know, the idea of ripping them out is a huge one. Harry gets out of California residents before 10 years are up. Once 10 years are hit in California, you file for divorce, it's community property. 50-50. Okay, so now he's got British residents reasserted, reaffirmed. Megan, what is she going to do there? She is loathed. She's got no friends. I asked the team to poll this for me. I said, what's the latest approval rating of those two over there? You go of poll of Britons in July. Harry's favorability is 30%. Meggins is 22. For comparison, Williams was at 76.

Princess Catherine is at 74. All right. I mean, even Queen Camilla's, she's at 43. She's well ahead of both of them. And the British public used to hate her. But now look at that. Megan Markle has a 22% favorability rating in the UK. Nearly 80% of the populace hates her.

So what will she do, Megan? Because, again, that last trip to the UK, She didn't even show her face publicly. Not once. She came late, actually. The reporting initially was she and the children were going to be with Harry during this most momentous visit in which he was promoting the 2027 Invictus Games. His most serious cause, the cause we are told is closest to his heart. Was she there for any of it? Nope. That was the same week, by the way, he got the black eye. All of his claims against the publisher of the Daily Mail were rejected. He and his cohort are now on the hook for $63 million, you know.

Right, because loser pays in the British legal system and he lost. He lost. And that's not even, the judge still has to rule on what legal fees he'll be paying for the defense in that court case. And I find this timing, as I know you do, incredibly convenient. They have no money. All of the Hollywood people have backed away slowly. have vanished your opras your tyler perries your chris jenner's um ted sarandos ted sarandos i mean he denied it in the variety piece but it seemed to me like a faint denial

where he said i won't get on the phone with her without my lawyer on the other line they're done they're done here megan's done there um i i have no idea what she does with herself for six months we know she can't live without a camera or a spotlight. Yeah. No, they have no friends, Maureen. Remember Harry, he showed up at the NBA finals with the commissioner. It was like a guy in his 30s gets an invitation to the NBA finals and he doesn't go with like his bros. That's like, Doug and I are very much in love.

I would not be his first phone call for the NBA finals. He would want to go with one of his best friends, one of his friends, one of his. dude friends who loves basketball. He showed up with the commissioner. He has no one and she has no one. They have absolutely no friends. But I really think it's more simple. I genuinely believe they, it's their vanity. And in particular, it's her vanity. I believe she's not happy. Her little kids are not getting the royal treatment. And neither is she. I think she probably wants those kids to grow up with a British accent. I think she wants them to be referred to as

Prince and Princess everywhere. I think she wants to be able to have her latest assistant who only lasts two months because she bullies them all out be able to call any restaurant in town and say it's the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, which actually means something over there. Here, people are like, whatever, give me a fucking break. Is it Tom Cruise or isn't it?

Because that's the only person we stay up late for. You know, she wants that status that she thought she was getting when she married him. And so I believe she wants this. And she probably had to talk him into it because he actually has been ripping on his country. Non-stop. Fifteen months ago, he said he could not possibly, is this a soundbite or is this just in my notes? He said he could not possibly go back there. No, no, no, no, no.

It is a sound bite. I can't see a world in which I'd be bringing my word. wife and children back to the UK. Safai, listen. The only time that I've come back to the UK is sadly for funerals or court cases with the odd charitable function where I can in between that. I put myself at risk for that, but I will continue on with a life of public service. So I will always support the charities and the people that mean so much to me.

I can't see a world in which I would be bringing my wife and children back to the UK at this point. And the things that they're going to miss is, well, everything. You know, I love my country. I always have done, despite what some people in that country have done. Okay, but that was 15 months ago, Maureen. I can't see a world in which I'd bring them back. Now they're all moving there? What changed?

Consistency and, you know, an intellectual through line has never been the strong suit of the Sussexes, ever. True. True. Facts. I also think, you know, we talked about, last time we talked about this, it was just like five minutes ago. You know, we were talking about how Diana, I think Diana had it right. When she said Charles was too weak for the top job, People magazine in their exclusive report last night, and we know people, which is from Her is the preferred outlet. They definitely have her as a source, in my opinion. She's their source on all of their exclusives, which are over the top favorable to her. They shoot them the emails, you know, and then they just reprint them with like, you know, very, very minor tweaks,

said that the people report, oh, said that the Sussexes felt they had very successfully accomplished what they had set out to do by moving to America, which was established themselves as the half in, half out royals, which is such an F you to the late queen who at this, and they blindsided the queen too with their announcement of Megxit in the first place. At the Sandringham summit, the late queen said, there is no half in or half out in her infinite wisdom. She said no half in or half out. You're either all in and you serve the British public and you represent this country or you are out. Go make your money. We wish you well. You cannot represent the royals. And now they're saying that not only are they doing that, they've successfully done it.

And I think the danger here is very real because I think that Harry is going to continue to make his appearances. And he is a Prince of the Blood. And those will be considered royal appearances. You know, whether they're endorsed by the palace or not, Megan will continue her travels as an ambassador dress of who knows what. And she'll consider those royal appearances. Now, this is, I think, also the deviousness of these two, because I think they are looking to get back in with King Charles. And they're going to attempt to checkmate William because once Charles begins to soften, Operation Thaw is what is called in Charles' realm. How is William going to look to the British public if he maintains his stance that his brother, who has been nothing but a traitor, to his.

him, his wife, his children, and the crown. Will William somehow be depicted as the bad guy here? Really, he'd love nothing more. I mean, in his book, Spare, which is the only successful thing they've done, he alleged that during a 2019 argument over Megan, William called Megan difficult, rude, and abrasive, that he grabbed Harry by the collar and knocked him to the floor where he, landed on a dog bowl and injured his back. He said that William later apologized. He called William his arch nemesis. He's my beloved brother and arch nemesis, he said. By the way, while on the subject of

the insults he hurled his family in his book, a couple more. He accused Camilla of using him to fix her image. He portrayed her as dangerous because of her relationships with the British press. He accused his dad, Camilla and William, of working with the press against him. He, you know, he's had nothing but negative things to say about them. And then in that Netflix special, the two of them called the British public racist. We pulled the soundbite just in case people forgot. I guarantee you the British public has not forgotten. It's Sot 10B. If you go back and look at the social media of that moment, immigration is a lot. the absolute center of those debates.

And immigration is very often in this country a cipher for race. Everybody should feel concerned about illegal immigration. We don't know who these people are. Send them back off. So the EU Commissioned a report in 2016. Exactly the same time that our relationship became public, it warned that if the government isn't going to do something or if the media aren't going to sort themselves out,

that a cultural war that have already existed was going to become a huge and become a real problem. Increased racist attacks after EU referendum. It was a perfect storm that gave credence to jingoism and nationalism and gave people with really horrible views of the world a little bit more strength and confidence to say what they wanted to say, to do whatever they wanted to do. the nerve of these two, to call them all racist.

Anybody who wanted Brexit, it was racist, and then expect to prance back in there and get a hero's return. Well, you know that Netflix documentary, which I believe they fired the original director or she left under a cloud of conflict, you know, if that's there, if that's the story they want to put out there, that racism really began to flourish when Megan came on the scene. I mean, I call this histrionic personality disorder. You know, you're responsible for like cross-border, you know, get out. Okay.

Secondly, if this is true, if this is what they truly believe, Megan, why? Okay. Harry has spent almost his entire, his full-time job, as best I can tell, has been suing the British tabloids. Yeah. So if the British tabloids are so terrible, have made, as he said on the witness, He said that he was weeping. Oh, they've made my wife's life a living hell. At which point the judge had to say,

excuse me, sir, this isn't a therapy session. Control yourself. Right. This is a McDonald's, sir. You know, like, stop crying. Well, even, Maureen, even in that People magazine piece, because the telegraph broke the news that Meg sits off and now they're going back. And then People Magazine almost instantly had its own piece. up 100% obviously from the Sussexes and in that piece they they they detail like what they're what

they're going to do and what this is about let him one second I just want to pull it up because it's it's better if I read it yeah okay this is what they put the blame on while the couple appeared to have an idyllic life in Montecito they want you to know it was idyllic this isn't a fail everything was ideal uh an idyllic while they appeared to have a idyllic life in Montecito, they have made no secret of their disillusionment with the current White House, with the midterm elections fast approaching, concerns about the direction of the U.S. loom large for many. This is the most cynical BS I've ever read in my life. They don't give a shit about who's in the White House. If she were getting her reservations when she wanted them,

she'd be staying. Trump has been president or president-elect for almost two years now. In fact, he's been president in his second term for so long that we are now on the cusp of beginning the next presidential election where he could possibly be replaced by a Democrat. He will be replaced by somebody. So to blame it on Trump is such an obvious headfake, like to her leftist, you know, the very small crew of leftists who still like her. Like I say, I'm leaving because of Trump. What a lie. That, to me, putting that in there makes it clear that this is all a lie and they don't

want to tell us what the real reason is. And so what that, okay, so it's got to be a few things. Are they ending the relationship? Are they out of money, which is a very real possibility? Or is it just a petty need for more attention? You tell me, Maureen, how that's going to go. Okay, so great, you can get your restaurant reservation. But everyone there hates you.

No one's clamoring to spend time with you. They're looking at you, but they're looking at you disdainfully. They can't stand you, and they know now that you can't stand them. I'm so happy that they very quickly disavowed their search for privacy, all credit to South Park, worldwide privacy tour. Yes. and have left us with such historical documentation of everything they thought and felt in any given moment. Do you remember, Megan? It was around this time last year, I think, or maybe even earlier this year. Megan sat down with Emily Chang of Bloomberg. She was launching something else. And Emily

Chang over Smashburgers asked Megan about, you know, the very difficult time we're in in this country and did Megan feel like she could say everything she wanted to say as far as her concerns about where this country is headed politically. And Megan sat there knowing, as Michael Jordan famously said, Republicans buy sneakers too. Well, I think I've said everything I've had to say. Now we're politicizing it again. And we're politicizing it just months after King Charles and Queen Camilla came to the states for a multi-day state. We're warmly welcomed by Donald and Melania Trump, have spoken mutually about how much they regard each other in the highest realm.

So it's so on brand for them to mess everything up before they even start. Let's blame Harry's father's American best friend, the leader of the free world. That's the ticket. Mm-hmm. Yes. And that way maybe leftist Britons might. might welcome us back. We had to flee Trump.

He was so bad. And all of MAGA is so racist. Just like those evil Brexit voting Britons, we had no choice but to return home where Megan could be safe, where our black children could be safe. They're whiter than you and I are. That's why I buy the surrogate rumors

and the egg donor rumors. I mean, you know, those are red hair, blue eyes, those are recessive genes. Honestly, and you and I are white, and these kids, we are pasty. These kids are pastier than we are. The obsession with celebrity is a factor here. You mentioned it. They got the cold shoulder out there.

No one's taking their calls anymore. There have been multiple reports out about this. We literally talked about the cold shoulder that they got at that event with the guy was supposed to be like a surrogate father to Harry. David Foster. Muckety-muck-up in Canada. There we go. Married to Catherine McVee.

how he didn't want to like hug Megan on the red carpet. And it was an obvious awkward moment. Oprah reportedly said no to doing another interview with them. They're not, they're not what they thought they'd be. And these two are obsessed with celebrity. Meanwhile, Kate and William are like this. You know, everybody wants to book them. Everybody wants to be near them.

It's like, you know, touching them gives you the Midas touch. That's the image that they have. But can we forget? this image, this moment, from Megan after the, hold on a second, yeah, it was, it was after the Oprah interview aired and they included this bit in their Netflix special about a special phone call that Megan got, Sot 3. Beyonce just texted. Really?

Shut up. Just checking in. Just checking in. Just casual. I'm so careful. I still get a little. I was so careful. She knows why now.

Don't cool her. No, it's okay. She said she wants me to feel safe and protected. She admires and respects my bravery and vulnerability. And she thinks I was selected to break generational curses that need to be healed. Oh, my God. It's all sad. Oh, my God.

Maureen, could I just tell you something? So, you know, at the top of the show, I tease this behind-the-scenes stuff on the MK tour. And you're in this week's episode. It's so good. But it was funny because my producers, God, love them, had included, like, some over-the-top nice things that certain characters had said about me. And I said, please take all that out.

Take that out of there. I don't want that, you know? It's ridiculous. I'm putting it out. If I'm putting it out, it's like me complimenting myself. I'm not doing that. This bitch had that in her Netflix document reading all. She praised my bravery.

Generational curses, traumas. And Harry, like the ballast wonder he is, is like, that's right. That's right. You were said to break the curses wrought by generations of my family, the oldest monarchy in the West, I believe. You know, it's incredible, too, because I don't believe that that was the text Beyonce wrote. It just doesn't sound like Beyonce. say, I have like a very, very, very well-sourced friend who has told me that she, this was stuff she was saying once she was behind palace walls before the marriage, that she believed

she had been divinely ordained to be the second coming of Princess Diana. Oh, my. She's like, I think she's a deeply unwell dangerous person. I think that the other thing, Megan, from that Netflix document. documentary, which I don't understand how any Brit will ever get past. I mean, we just went through her taking photos of Harry and the children at what looked like a procession to Diana's grave, which was said to enrage Prince William, rightly so, the crossing of the ankles in the limousine while driving past Diana's death tunnel. The mock curtsy that she executed that deep-

Oh, we have it. Curtsey. Here it is. Sot 9, making fun of the queen. Americans will understand this. We have medieval times, dinner and tournament. It was like that. Like, I curtsied as though I was like,

pleasure to meet you, your majesty. Like, was that okay? Oh, my God, his reaction says it all. She's such an asshole. She's making fun of it. And by the way, Megan, speak for yourself. America at large does not regard the British royal family as like medieval times. No.

The franchise restaurant slash theme park, we do not. But in that moment, and that's where you see her deep insecurity and lack of a self, the only thing she knows how to do is try to elevate herself, compensate for her deep insecurity, the mask she's always wearing, by bringing Harry and the British. Royal Family down to her level. Well, now, I mean, I'll be interested to see, and we'll cover this as it evolves, but I will be interested to see what this does to the royal family because they've set off yet another bomb within it. If it's true that they didn't tell King Charles until this past Sunday, the

reports are both in people, so they're claiming it and the telegraph, as you pointed out, that he didn't find out until Sunday the 16th of August, which was this past. Sunday, right? Is that this past Sunday or the one before? No, this one. A few days ago. Yeah, it's this past Sunday. So that he didn't tell them, he didn't tell the king when he was over there and that the king found out as we all did, basically. And William and Kate reportedly don't want this. So what's going to happen now? I mean, how does this threaten the royal family? Because poor King Charles is now going to have to be navigating between the one son who is the heir who has done his duty, who didn't

get a six-year reprieve hanging out with Tyler Perry and Oprah who doesn't want them and doesn't appreciate the split business nature of the relationship, as you point out, Queen Elizabeth said no to. And the other son who just plays on his heartstrings and says, well, if you want to see your latest grandchildren, you know, you'll allow me back and we'll be able to do regular visits at all the royal properties. And you'll protect me with adequate security and make me feel like a royal like I want. And so poor King Charles, who is aging and still dealing with the fallout from the cancer diagnosis, has been placed in a very difficult spot. And this could really tear the whole family apart. I agree with you. I think it's the greatest existential threat since Andrew, truly.

You know, and they just sort of excised that cancer only to have a different kind, reenter the host. you know, this affects Britain. It's not just any family. And this is where I do think Diana was right and Charles is weak. If they're going to insist upon returning, I think the king needs to make it very clear. They're returning as private citizens. They have no, there is no place for them in the family that they renounced. And, you know, Charles isn't the only member of this family who has been dealing with cancer. Catherine was diagnosed with cancer, and you know what could have helped when William was dealing with a sick wife and three small children and a sick father, having a brother who hadn't betrayed him so many times in such deep, profound ways, who had stayed and done the job

and a sister-in-law who understood her role and stepped in to help. That would have been, that would have been what, that's what family does. I think that Charles is, I think there's something even deeper here. I think, and it's dark. But I think Charles resents William. I do. I think it's just like Diana. They say that there's a rift between those two.

Because William holds him responsible for what happened to William's mother. But William also has all of Diana's gifts. He's got the charm, the magnetism. Total. He's photogenic. People love him. He's got this image like, you know, Charles resented Diana for all of those qualities as well. Charles reads the polls. He knows that the British public, this job he's been waiting for his entire adult life. He gets it. He gets sick. He reads the papers. He knows that the British public would die for William to ascend the throne sooner than later. They want William. Yep. They want William. So this is a shift to him. I just thought of something else. Sorry. there's something else those two grifters want their children to grow up close to the future future king

and i mean prince george so they have george um what's the name the charlotte and then louis okay now they know that i think they know that harry and william are probably not going to reconcile but one day, George will be king. And I think they want Lillibet and Archie to be in a position to be treated by that point as equal royals to George and Charlotte and Louis, that they can salvage that generation. And Louis is only eight years old. And guess how old Archie is? He's seven years old. And there is a report out today suggesting that they are, they're hoping to ingratiate themselves with the wider British family, like the Royal, British Royal family, all the other royals who are running around out there, not named William and Kate, and their

children as well. And think about it. And they want them to go to these British schools. So if these kids could follow in the footsteps of William and Harry, then those boys are going to go to Eaton. That's where Harry went. That's where William went. And George, no, sorry, Louis and Archie would be there at the same time. They could potentially be in the same. grade or separated by a year. And I guarantee you, these two are like, our kids are going to get their little British accents. They're going to get their British education. And they are going to be just as popular and famous and beloved as that asshole Williams children. Like that, I think they feel the entitlement to it. And they're like, all we need to do is buy four plane tickets. And it's

ours. I agree with everything you're saying. I think that. The one point I differ on is I do not think Eton will allow Harry's children to attend. Or Archie, it's an all-boy school. I don't think he will allow it. You know, they educate future kings. You know, Harry wrote, wrote of his time there terribly in spare. Why would he want to send his child there? Again, I thought we were protecting the innocence and privacy of innocent children by moving to America.

when the merging didn't work out so well, we began seeing the children, the backs of their heads, in slight profile. Now we want to integrate them. Integrating them into the family means their public property to a degree. You have to work with the media.

Oh, yeah. So now they're going to work with the media? I thought the media killed his mother. I thought the royal family tried to kill her, Megan. Remember? Like, why would you go back to a family that cared so little about your wife, they were ready to let her kill herself. I mean, what this does is just put the lie to all the freaking whining that these two have been doing for seven to ten years now, right? They tried to

bully me into committing suicide. They won't protect me or my family from the evil British racist public that wants to kill us. I could never move my family back there because we're not safe. We'll get killed. All of that is by the wayside. And the royal family is obsessed with Skiske color. You wanted to know how dark my baby was going to be. What? What? Right? We all saw the theatrics around these lies. And now it's, we're back. Welcome us back. We love it here. And it's about the schools or it's about Trump. That's what they want. So wait, you're going to endanger your wife and your children because of Trump or because you think you can't find a good school in the United States of America. I'm sorry, but we have some of the greatest schools in the world here.

Everybody knows that, especially out of the fancy Montecito area, some private school out there, can't do better than some British school. I beg to differ. And by the way, she's like, I'm a California girl and I love the sun and I, okay, you know what London is like? Enjoy that. You're going to be there for the next 18 years or 15 while your kids go through the public school. She's going to hate it.

She's absolutely going to hate it. So anyway, all these, these behaviors are putting the love. to all the bullshit they've been spending for years. I know, and they're going right back into the Lions Ma. I mean, what kind of treatment do they think the British tabloids are going to give them? This is partly why I really do think this is the, we're building the blocks to a divorce announcement. Megan can go for six months. The children get enrolled in boarding school.

She can be bi-coastal. It doesn't really matter. They're in boarding school nine months out of the year. She takes them on summer vacation. wherever she takes them. You know, she gets, you know, you know, a King Charles. And this is why they should have stripped the titles. Because if they didn't have the titles, none of this would be on the table.

We wouldn't be talking about what damage these wrecking balls can do. They're such destroyers. Wait, what was I say? I totally lost my train of thought. Wait. I mean, well, I have something for you in any event because we only have a couple minutes left. I want to get this in. last April she went on with that ridiculous person Jamie Kern Lima you know the he they went

and talks like this and listen to how she described their their life now SOT 11 are you in love now more than ever more than you've ever been oh yeah I mean you have to imagine at the beginning everyone who's like butterflies and and then we immediately went into the trenches together Yeah. Right out of the gate, like six months into dating. So now seven years later when you have a little bit of breathing space, you can just enjoy each other in a new way. And that's why I feel like it's more of a honeymoon period for us now. Yeah. Do you think you'll be married forever? Yes. I have a letter. He's also a fox. If you haven't noticed, my husband's very, very handsome. But his heart is even more beautiful. I love that your eyes are spreading right now. Oh. Maureen, I threw up in my mouth. All reports to the contrary, that Harry's got a bolthole in Santa Monica where he smokes

weed and plays video game and gets on literal British time. This was the thing I was going to say. That reminded me, a king Charles, unlike a king William, will happily cut Megan Markle an enormous check to go away. And I think she's, I think she would be. happy to take it. Mm-hmm. Yes. But how about that nonsense of, finally, we have room to breathe.

We were in the trenches. And by that, she means Buckingham Palace. Kensington Palace, Belmoral. We were in the trenches. Six months later, you were fucking wearing tiaras, the crown jewels, and having a wedding at Westminster Abbey, where the King of England future walked you down the aisle. What kind of weird revisionist bullshit history is this?

And now finally we have breathing space. Oh, but we want to go back to where we were being suffocated. We'd like to go back to where they want me to die. They want my children and my entire family to be in danger from the racist British public and where we cannot breathe any longer. And it's because of the schools and Trump. Maureen, this is perhaps the biggest line of bullshit these two have ever tried to feed us. and we are only left to ask ourselves, why?

What is the real reason? I'd love to hear from the audience. You can email me, Megan at Megan Kelly.com. I maintain they're not getting enough attention. It really is the South Park thing. We want privacy, which we all know is fake. And no one here gives a shit about royals.

We just don't. We'll pay them special homage when they come by for a little visit. Be cool to see William and Kate. We were really nice to Charles because he was really nice to us. But like living amongst us day to day, we don't give a shit. We don't believe in royalty. We're American. You're not special.

And you two are really not special. And especially in Montecito, which has got billionaires and actually accomplished people. And they can't stand it. Maureen, I'm sure you'll have more on this on the nerve this weekend for us. You got it. This thing broke last night. And our original mini was going to be all about someone named Jeff who bombed into our live chat. And every troublemaker, myself included, believes Jeff, Megan was Oprah.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, I do want to hear that. But we've had to put that on ice for a moment because we've got to address this lady. Like, this is the other thing. You're so right about the celebrity part. It's important. You're so right about the celebrity part. celebrity part, Megan, up until yesterday afternoon, Wednesday afternoon, the biggest celebrity

story of the week was Hayden Panetteer. Nobody's talking about her anymore. Now we're talking about these two. They know exactly what they're doing. Oh, it's so true. I mean, I'm sorry, but you've got to do it. You've got to rejigger from the others as interested as I am in Oprah, possibly, aka Jeff. This is an all-hands-on-deck situation. We need to get to the bottom of this. Is there a potential separation in the mix? Are we actually finally rid of them over here in America? I'll bet no one's happier than the Montecito neighbors who have been probably looking at these two and all the people she's bullied out there.

In any event, we will stay on it, as will The Nerve, as will Teddy Van Halen, Maureen's right hand reporter on the nerve. He found Stedman, but possibly just a cardboard cutout. More from her over the weekend. And we will be back more here with Kelly's Court right after this. When it comes to supplements, there are two things that matter, that it works and that you can trust it. Rather than just tell you about Relief Factor, we often bring you what their real customers have to say. One real customer, Jim, said he ran out of Relief Factor twice, and both times his aches, stiffness, and pain came right back.

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We've got some breaking news in the Carmelo Anthony case that you are not going to believe as we kick off an incredible Kelly's court. We'll have the latest on the death investigation into Hayden Penitier. Is her on again, off again boyfriend in potential legal trouble? And the Lindsay Clancy trial is back in session as her supporters are cheering outside the courtroom. And all over social media, we'll talk about why. But we're going to kick it off with Carmelo Anthony. And guess who's here in the Red Studio with me? It's defense attorney.

Former prosecutor Arthur Idaala. He's host of the Arthur Idala Power Hour. And two of our MKTrue Crime show hosts, Dave Aaronberg and Ashley Merchant, join me via the Transom, The Magic of Satellites, go and subscribe to their twice a week show that they host, along with our pal Phil Holloway by going to mkotrucime.com. Find it on YouTube. Just go into the podcast button on your phone and type in MKTrue Crime and you will follow them if you hit subscribe. Guys, welcome back.

Great to see you. Dave and Ashley. And great to have you here in studio. What a thrill. This is the room where it happens. Guys, I'm in, actually, I'm in the room where it happens. I'm jealous. I'm not going to lie.

I am jealous. I want to be there in the party. Arthur's not going to be so thrilled in about five minutes when the heat of my studio starts to kick in. Oh, no, that's fine. I am thrilled because I got to spend time with your husband. That's always a fun, Doug. Oh, Doug is a good man. All right, guys, great to see you.

This is, we got to start with Carmelo Anthony because just as I was talking about Megan Markle, holy cow the update in this case is genuinely stunning um okay my papers are everywhere well he's basically um i know what it is i just want to find having dreams about stabbing people and licking the blood off the knife he's so excited should be quiet here let me tell them what it actually is okay daily mails marianne martinez reporting because they're in court this morning on carmello anthony on the defense motion to get him a retrial a new trial saying that there had been a james gentleman's agreement that we weren't going to do character evidence at this trial. And the prosecution somehow violated that by making some passing reference to like what Austin Metcalfe

like to do or what Carmelo Anthony liked to do for fun. It was just, it was, it's such a Hail Mary by the defense. But something big happened in court this morning when the prosecutor got up and did not deny that there was a gentleman's agreement to not go to the character place on either the accused, Carmelo Anthony, who stabbed and killed Austin Metcalf at a track meet for absolutely nothing. Austin told him he had to leave Austin's team's tent, and Carmelo Anthony instantly stabbed him. Or Austin Metcalf, both sides agreed we're not going to do character evidence on either the defendant or the decedent. And the prosecutor got up there and said, we did have such an agreement, but let me tell you what we would have introduced had we gone there. It would have been,

like, because now the defense is like, we should have been able to do that. We're going to do that. You know, we could have talked about what a bad person, Austin Metcalf was. And he's like, how about Carmelo Anthony, the actual defendant? Here's what I had in my back pocket. He says, first of all, Carmelo Anthony's girlfriend, Valeria, would have testified that they, that she went to school the morning of the stabbing April 2nd, 2025. And she told school officials that she had, she told school officials that she had broken up with Carmelo Anthony and that he was stalking her. So this had happened that morning. One hour later, Austin Metcalf was dead, according to the prosecutor. Clearly painting a picture of this kid, you know, so-called Carmelo Anthony,

who was a hothead who was angry that morning. in some level of emotional distress and turmoil already at the time he showed up at the track meet. It's starting to come together, that hair trigger he had. But here's the real headline. So first of all, he texted the girlfriend, I'm low key on the verge. He texted her the morning of the stabbing,

the verge of what? We're not sure exactly. However, the prosecutor says Anthony had a history of violence and that he wanted to stab someone. quote, there is a text message where he fantasizes about stabbing someone and licking the blood off the blade, he said of Anthony. He was obsessed with starting fights, said the prosecutor, and he was prepared to prove that, revealing Anthony had previously been taken by his parents to a special program at LSU for kids who cannot keep their hands to themselves.

he went on to say, let's see, there was one of the things suggesting that there was, oh yeah, there was previous aggressive behavior and text messages about a knife in particular. That came out a little bit after. So all of this is deeply disturbing and would not have helped Carmelo Anthony at all, Arthur. So what do you make of it?

Well, first of all, this type of evidence usually only comes out if the defendant's going to test You can't unless it's absolutely relevant. Now, maybe the part about the girlfriend going that day, because that's relevant, right? That's within hours of this happening. That may have come out, but it didn't. And I mean, that's the thing. The difference between a jury and a judge, a judge at this point, you could let it all hang out. And Megan, I mean, I think Hail Mary is what the term used. I would say a miracle. In other words, they made a passing reference to him being not a nice kid. but they really had a tremendous amount of ammunition. He kills the guy with a knife, and they have text messages of him dreaming of stabbing with a knife and then licking the blood off his blade. I mean, this case is not going anywhere.

And it's a new judge, right? They wanted the judge recused he wasn't going to be fair and impartial. Good, I'm happy. There's a new judge with a clean slate, and I'm sure this judge is going to be like, okay, I think everything went well at the trial. Yes, exactly, because it seems like a no-brainer that, you know, this Carmelo, Anthony,

does not deserve a new trial. This is the new judge. They got rid of the old judge because he gave an interview to the press, Dave, and made all sorts of statements of like, I think my ruling on allowing them to strike

those black jurors was correct. I think the jury verdict was correct and was saying a bunch of stuff that it's very rare that we see a judge give interviews like that. And the defense made the most of it and said, you need to recuse. He didn't recuse.

He got bounced off of hearing these motions by an independent judge that they brought in to a evaluate the motion. And now the judge has been bounced. But the new judge doesn't exactly seem like a softy, Dave. He's lifelong Republican. They don't tend to be softies on the bench. He also was very well respected. When he was on the bench, he only retired in 2020. And he's got some history of actually increasing sentences when they come back around before him. So I'm not sure they're going to like the new judge any more than they like the old judge. What do you make all this breaking news?

Yeah, be careful what you wish for. Be careful what you wish for. You know, you got the news judge, same as the old judge, right? This guy's going to be very tough. I do think it was the right decision to balance the old judge because he did give a press interview where he said that he thought the jury got it right with the guilty verdict. Okay, well, the standard is whether it creates a reasonable expectation of bias or an appearance of partiality. And yeah, when you're asking for a new trial, when the judge has already prejudged it, it's good to get a new judge. And that's good for appeal. so they can't keep this going on any longer because the evidence is overwhelming against Carmelo Anthony. And when they say, well, we had a deal with the prosecutors not to put on evidence about the character of Carmelo Anthony and all this other stuff.

And then that's why we didn't put on our client, Carmelo Anthony, because if we had, then the prosecutors said they were going to go after him for character. Well, now we know the real reason why they didn't put Carmelo Anthony on the stand. wasn't because of a deal with prosecutors. It's because they had some smoking gun evidence about his text and his fight with his girlfriend. That's exactly it. Well, said, that all this bullshit, Ashley, of like, well, we had a gentleman's agreement. And, you know, once we realized the prosecution wasn't going to honor it, we couldn't put him on the stand. Oh, and by the way, they said we only had 10 minutes to decide whether to put Carmelo on the stand.

And the prosecutor actually is featured in this report by CBS, Texas. to play it quickly. Sop 49 on whether that's true, too. Listen to this, is aired on July 20th. Howard's new affidavit says he was 99% sure before the trial that Anthony would testify. He blames part of the reason he didn't on being rushed during the closed door hearing and the judge declining to extend our time beyond 10 minutes. But the trial transcript shows that behind closed doors, the judge gave Anthony a lengthy explanation of his rights and that the defense had more than a half hour beyond that to consider their next move. Even allowed, allowing Anthony to consult with his parents before telling the judge,

I don't want to testify. Did you think you had ample time to talk to your lawyers about that and got feedback from them, feedback from your family? You have had enough time to make that decision. Anthony replied, yes, sir, we did. What was your reaction to seeing this affidavit? I was surprised. I was disappointed and, frankly, a little confused.

I mean, I was there for every minute of the trial and Bill Werski and our prosecution team. They conducted this case so fairly and cleanly and professionally. Go ahead, Megan, this is so clear they wanted a door number three. And there was no door number three. And that happens a lot. I mean, he wanted a door where he could testify and none of this evidence would come in. That's not possible. No matter how you spin it, no matter how many gentlemen's agreements you have, how you try to wiggle it. If he took the stand, this evidence was going to come in and this evidence was going to sink him. And that's why he didn't take the stand. And I guarantee you, they didn't have 10 minutes to talk about this. I guarantee you, they've been talking about this for a year. Because the first thing you do, if you're a defense lawyer, is you're going to look at this and you're going to say, oh my God, my client has made statements like this, has made threats with a knife. I mean, he had a prior school incident, you know, where he had been quasi suspended from school. I mean, he had been taken to, you know, this treatment facility, I guess, for kids who couldn't keep their hands to themselves.

I mean, all of these things are things that would come up if Carmelo Anthony took the stand. And any defense lawyer would know that there's a huge risk that's going to come out. And it's going to be highly relevant. And they wanted a door number three. And there was no door number three. So they had to make a choice. They don't like that choice. and now they're trying to go back

because they want to try again with another choice. And that's not how it works. Just a little bit more from that first report that I was reading about what happened in court came from the Daily Mail. This is from CBS, Texas.

And their reporting is similar but adds a little bit of a new element where they say, the morning, this is from the prosecutor, Bill Worski. He said a lot of people have asked why Carmelo Anthony took a knife to attract me.

Those reasons were captured in our 4-4 motion about allowing in prior bad acts. by the defendant. The morning of the stabbing, his ex-girlfriend goes to an assistant principal saying she broke up with Carmelo and he was stalking her. Anthony, there's an Anthony text message saying, I'm on the verge the morning before the stabbing and emphasized, and that he emphasized something. It's disjointed this report. But then this reporter says he also threatened her with a knife.

He threatened the girlfriend with a knife in one message and told him. her in another, when I stab someone, I'm going to lick their blood off the blade. So it seems like he might have made a specific threat to the government, which is why she's in reporting it to the principal. Yeah. And, and you know, Megan, this case, honestly, and I know you kind of agree, but this was a no-brainer, right? I mean, he stabs this kid in the chest for basically no reason. And all this, and none of us are happy when a young person like Carmela Anthony is now going

to spend basically his life in prison. But it makes you feel more comfortable about what? really happen here. I mean, and this stuff, if you testify, I don't care about gentlemen. There's no gentleman's agreement. There's, yeah, what is that? If it's offended testifies, you know, there's, I mean, look, this is a different location than Manhattan or in Brooklyn where I practice, but it's the rules of evidence. And if I'm the prosecutor, I'm going to do everything I kind of get that in. I'm going to bust my butt to argue to the judge. Why is this relevant? It has to go to his mindset that day. This isn't, this isn't from five years ago. This

right there and then the girlfriend, she's reported, her fear is so heightened that she's reporting it to authorities. That is something if I'm a juror, I want to know that this kid on that particular day he had hate in his heart. I mean, that's, I was itching for

a fight and more than just a fight. I'm murdered. And Sarah Fields, who's been doing great reporting on this, she reports my multiple sources have been telling me there is so much more about Carmelo Anthony behavior. Texts on his phone that go back for years. I mean, Dave, we need to see this because the Austin Metcass family is still being

harassed by these lunatics down there who thinks somehow their dead son is to blame for going over to Carmelo Anthony and saying, you need to leave this tent. This is for our team. Yeah. But the fact that they've made so much noise and are claiming that they didn't get a fair shake and they didn't a new judge, it does open the door for all the stuff that come out, at least in the court of public opinion because to think that this was somehow self-defense, now we know why he brought the knife to the track meet, and we know it's not self-defense. This was not a spontaneous act. This was something, a guy who was a ticking time bomb, and they had a scrap, a disagreement, and at worst, it should have been like a pushing fight, which it was. Instead, he brought a knife into it.

And so there is no sympathy for him. Arthur is right. We don't want to say young people go to prison for life, but he took the life of another person and destroyed a family. And now that family is also being dragged through the mud. So it's important for the truth to come out. Yes, Ashley, the report, again, back to the Daily Mail's Marianne Martinez, is that Metcalf's mom is almost in tears in this courtroom this morning with eyes closed as the prosecutor is talking about how there was almost a shooting at her house leading up to the trial and how the Metcalfs were doxed multiple times.

It's the victims are being treated like they're the perpetrators. And I really think, I mean, who knows? But like the public release of who Carmelo Anthony really was is overdue. Right. There's no reason. I mean, I guess the prosecutors were trying to preserve the case pending appeal, getting final rulings and all that, right? Is that what other reason would there be not to release that?

It's really interesting that you bring that. Why not? Because that's one thing that's really kind of bothered me about this the entire time. They did a lot of stuff in secret. So these 404 motions is what we call them as lawyers. And it's just, it's, it's, you know, trying to keep out prejudicial evidence. So evidence that maybe Carmelho had been in fights before. Essentially, the government wants to bring that in, the defense wants to keep it out. And so you file these things called four or four B motions. Well, typically, they're filed. It's a public filing. I mean, things that are filed in the court docket is public. Typically, these hearings are held publicly. In this case, they didn't file them in the

court's docket. The judge came. them and they had these hearings sort of in secret. And so, you know, as a member of the public, that really bothers me. What's interesting, though, is Carmelo Anthony is trying to use that to get a new trial, but it actually benefited him because the things that were in these motions are all of these prior bad acts, you know, the prior instances of violence or prior instances where maybe he was stalking his girlfriend or he was making these heated texts, you know, whatever happened at the school that we still don't know about, but maybe by five o'clock today we'll know about, you know, whatever led for him to go to this program at LSU. All of this stuff is probably

in those motions. And so the court was really protecting him this whole time. But yet, while the court was trying to protect him and keep all this secret, the internet was able to make up all these false narratives and really spin this in a way that's just, it's awful what's happened. I mean, even the lawyers have been threatened, you know, both sides, the defense, the state. And I don't think that that was really ever anybody's intention. But I think if the world had really known the truth from the beginning, that maybe we wouldn't be where we are here today. Here's the other thing, Arthur, that we found this out yesterday. Back to Sarah Fields, she found this and actually Carmelo's lawyer's affidavit, his trial attorney,

Michael Howard submitted an affidavit about an off-the-record agreement, this gentleman's agreement he allegedly had with the prosecutors and so on. So this comes from Carmelo's side. And he writes, in sentencing, in reliance upon this agreement, the defense did not designate an expert who was ready to testify regarding mitigation on. have of Carmelo. Like, don't give him a really mean sentence because all these terrible things happened to him when he was a child. And so you should feel bad for him. And so this is what he is now arguing, saying, because of this gentleman's agreement, we did not, we did not bring up a character witness to offer mitigation. And so the defense severely limited its available

character witnesses to just three questions of Mr. Anthony's mother. But here's what I'm getting to. He writes, other than general character testimony and please for mercy, reliance upon that agreement, the defense also did not go into substantial family violence Mr. Anthony had witnessed and had been a victim of in his own home. Now, I'm sorry, but these parents of his. Yeah, I know. Right. I've been all over the news trying to paint the METCalfs and the poor dead Austin as a racist with no evidence. How many times have we seen this, Mr. George Floyd, all of them after he died, all of a sudden, he was a saint, George Floyd,

people who had never dealt with him, dealt with his mental illness, dealt with his addiction, all of a sudden they were there and his brother. I mean, this is, it's like a script. And I'll answer you a question, but the sad part, and I'll ask you the question, if both of these kids were white

or both of these kids were black, would it be more than a one-day story? Maybe. It wouldn't be this big. But, I mean, a kid for apparently no reason, shoving a knife in another kid, That is a big story. Yeah, but it's so obvious what happened. This wasn't a who done it.

No. Right? It was like what happened. And there really wasn't a bright. There really wasn't much of a why. I mean, could you leave the tent? I'm going to stab you in the heart. So I don't, I don't, this is foreign to me.

When you're doing this, all right, so someone gets convicted of murder. I don't care if you're 12 years old or a hundred and 12 years old. Of course you put your best foot forward. Yes, if they put forward, he had these dreams of licking blood off a knife. But you know that the kid got beaten as a kid, Carmelo Anthony, let's say his father abused his mother, a father abused him. He was sexually, you've got to put all of that out there and just throw it all on the judge's lap and say, look, Judge, here's the good and here's the bad. Why would you hold that back? He didn't do it.

I think he didn't do it because the parents probably didn't want him to do it. Right. Those parents were enjoying being seen as saints, Dave and Ashley. They were out there with their little weird press guy who was throwing the race card in everybody's face based on nothing. And they wanted to look like, oh, where are the grieving? parents. We're the ones who have lost something. Meanwhile, they took the GoFundMe money, and it appears that they spent it on some $900,000 rental and blew a lot of that cash. And I'm sure they didn't want it coming out. It's no accident. Ashley, only now is Carmelo's lawyer saying, geez, I only asked

the mother three questions on mitigation. It's all the mean prosecutor's fault that I didn't get into the fact that he had been, that he did not go into substantial family violence he had witnessed and had been a victim of in his home home, in his own home. He's saying that there was somebody was beating somebody up inside that home and Carmelo Anthony was one of the people who got beaten up by whom. The sweet loving parents. Exactly. So Megan, you know me. So this won't surprise you at all. As soon as I saw that Mr. I don't even know if the same as Mr. Anthony, but his father did not testify, I immediately started running his records immediately. And I was curious, why did they move to Texas from Louisiana? You know, the allegation was they were trying to get away from

something bad. Well, he has a substantial record. He's got lots of issues, lots of cases open in Louisiana. He's got, you know, where he's had probation that hasn't been finished, you know, just different things. Nothing super serious on the record, but lots of little cases, lots of involvement with law enforcement, lots of involvement with the court system. So it didn't surprise me at all. And I assumed immediately that's why this man did not testify in defense of his son. I certainly didn't know that it rose to the level of PTSD, but immediately when he didn't testify, I thought, okay, there's something that they want to hide. Well, why are they trying to hide that? Because it would help Carmelo. If he abused Carmelo, that would help him in mitigation. And that potentially could help, yeah, could help his self-defense, too.

I mean, if, you know, if they had an expert that says, well, he was beaten. And so, you know, he was more of quick to defend himself. That could have potentially helped. They didn't do any of that. So I think you're right that they did it for money, because if they had done that, the donations are going to dry up, you know? why else would you not put that out of them? What other reason could there be? Dave Arrenberg, what, if you're talking about saving this kid's life, he's just been convicted by a jury of murder and you're the defense lawyer, aren't you, it was shocking how little mitigation he attempted.

It was shocking that they had the mother on the stand. I think one of the questions was like, was he sorry? And she's like, yeah, he was sorry. That's it. Like, there was no mitigation. Why wouldn't you, any normal parent would be like, Even if it weren't true, most of us be like, I beat him. Right.

It's my fault. It's my fault. I did something. I screwed the kid up. Whatever I have to say. It's on me. And like, she didn't go there. And now we're learning a lot.

Yeah, it's like criminal defense 101. When the Parkland massacre happened, you remember the killer who slaughtered 17 innocents in Marjorie Stone and Douglas High School, one of his defenses at the penalty phase of the trial was that his mother smoked while he was in the womb. So this is like. Oh, my God. I mean, this is like, so did my mom. I think explains a lot. Yeah, my mom probably drank when I was in the way. That would explain a lot, too. My mom's defense was never in the first three months.

Yeah. After that, you can have a glass of red wine once a week. It explains everything about my SAT score. Keep going, Dave. That's true, though. No, it's funny how all of our mothers did that. But yes, this is an area it's right for bringing it up in penalty phases and mitigation. But it's interesting, you know, all this stuff comes out now that they had a deal that was an honor. it wasn't brought up during the trial. In fact, the judge kept asking the defense lawyer, okay, are we all good? There's no, nothing, no deals or anything. Everyone is happy with each other. And there was none of this stuff brought up during the trial. Only after the result was bad, now it's like, okay, now we have to complain about this. And also, there are at least 600,000

reasons not to besmirch the parents. That's the amount of money that the parents raised from the give-send-go fundraising operation by the time of the trial. They had every reason not to bring their names up because they were raising a lot of money. And there are a lot of questions of where that money went. Man, can I just ask my colleagues here? Because, you know, I'm primarily in the tri-state area and you're in Florida and Georgia. Like, do you guys have these handshake agreements with prosecutors? Like, all right, I won't do this.

And, you know, in a murder case, you know, maybe if it's a dewee or something like that. But, I mean, you know, that just doesn't exist in my world. No, that does not exist. We put everything on the record. We would have it in writing. There is no way I would have my entire defense based on some backdoor gentleman's agreement that wasn't even ironed out. I would have very specific things.

That's ridiculous. How about you, Dave? You're just in the business of prosecuting people. For 12 years when I was state attorney, no, our office would not have entered into some side deals with defense lawyers. You do that. And that is just you're risking having your conviction overturned on appeal. you're also risking the reputation of your office because there's inevitably going to be disputes. Oh, you didn't live up to that because once the defense loses, they're going to point to something in that deal and say you're the problem because they don't like to admit that they're the problem.

So what Carmelo Anthony should do is that realize he's not going to get a new trial and then do his direct appeals. And on his appeals, do an ineffective assistance of counsel claim. Blame your lawyers. Maybe that's his best shot of getting out of prison. Yeah. No, it's true. I was shocked to see the prosecutor admitting. yeah, we did have this agreement. It's like, why? Why would you do that? What do you, what do you, what, has he put, like, we're kind of ripping on this whole thing,

but like, is there a chance that this judge won't see it as a hail? I don't think, I don't think the prosecutor, had the, had they had this gentleman's agreement that the prosecutor is admitting they had and they introduced the evidence of the dream with the licking the blood off the knife. But I don't, they didn't breach the agreement to such a degree that it changed the facts of the case, right? There's something called harmless error. So is this, I mean, the facts of this case are indisputed.

So it's, it wasn't like, oh, we didn't know if he was going to be guilty or not guilty on a knife's edge. And this one little thing that the prosecutor said that he said he shouldn't have said is what made the verdict happen. It's just, again, it goes back to our harmless error analysis. Yeah, I see it as the defense took a gamble on this agreement, which does sound like it was kind of a good agreement for the defense. Yeah.

All this stuff doesn't come in. I don't know why the prosecutor wouldn't fight to put that in. I mean, it's amazing. This prosecutor's like, I'm going to get in a conviction with or without this. He might as well make it as bulletproof as I can. But so, but the defense agreed to it. And only now do they want another bite at the apple because that now with the benefit of 2020 hindsight, they see, oh, it didn't work.

Didn't work out. So I'm just going to say whatever I agreed to was, was a problem. And it was a little funky. So maybe I'll get a judge to say this was too funky for me. And it's a murder trial. So I'm reversing this. But I agree. I don't think that's what's going to happen here.

I think the judge is going to say no retrial for you. All right, I want to move on because we talked a bit about was there domestic violence inside the Carmelo Anthony home? Well, there was domestic violence inside Hayden Penitier's home by this disgusting boyfriend. I mean, this is the lowest of the low. I cannot believe, and I'm so sad that this woman spent a big portion of the last six, seven years with this guy. They met in 2018. By 2019, he was abusing her. By 2020, there was a criminal case against him and he he he would he I can't remember right now whether he was found guilty or pleaded guilty either way there was a guilty result he was convicted of punching her in the face the police saw her right after there was no question that it happened he's admitted to it some jail time some probation

and reportedly a five-year restraining order which neither one of them lived up to she invited him back into her life this is a pattern many domestic violence survivors are familiar with. And now the reporting on this case has just come out that the DEA is now involved in this in investigating where those drugs came from, that she reportedly had like a suitcase full of drugs with her, that there's a new report out today that three months ago when she was on her media tour, like, this is my victory moment. I'm together now.

she was doing drugs then that she tried to order Whippets. Yeah, she was doing weird drugs. Nitrous oxide? Yeah, I mean. Isn't that what you get at the dentist? Yeah, that's like teenager. High school stuff. Yeah, when you were kids, you'd put it in a balloon and it's almost like sucking a helium meal talk like this. Yeah. And it lasts for like 60s. I never got 10 seconds. It's really fast. It makes your head very like. It's a 60 second. I think we're too old. We're not the right demo. But clearly, Megan, to your point, you know,

My law partner is retired judge John Leventhal. He was the first domestic violence judge in the United States of America, 25 years, 30 years ago now, where we didn't really know domestic violence because common sense would dictate. If anyone punches you in the face, you're not really going to hang it. Maybe it's your brother or your sister.

But besides that, you're going to get away, especially of means. Like a lot of women get trapped because of the finances, right? They can't leave. Or children. Right. There's a child. And then the finances.

but there is a psychological aspect to this where you get like this locked in and sometimes the women snap and we have created a defense to murder called battered woman syndrome. There's a whole TV series called Snap. Right. I've been on it. I have. I'm like, well, not me,

but my client has been on it. But yes, and it looks like that's what happened here. This woman had the means. She had the means to escape. But I guess it's the combination of the domestic violence, PTSD, and then the drug addiction. addiction, sadly, tragically led to her death. Yes.

Okay. Now, Debbie Murphy tells me via WebMD, Wippets or Nitrous oxide are popular inhalant drugs. You may also hear them referred to as Wippets or Whippets. That's the same thing. The drug gets its name from whipped cream aerosol canisters that people open to misuse the gas inside. Nitrous oxide cuts off oxygen to the brain,

creating a euphoric high that lowers your mental and physical pain. All right. So I'm still not clear on how it differs from like what they give you at the dentist. but okay. I've never had it at my dentist. But I once, I've told my eyes, once I had a laser done on my knees, Ashley, you appreciate this.

You know, when you age, your, your skin starts to sag around your, oh yeah, yeah. And I didn't want sagging skin on my knees. So I had this laser procedure done, and they gave me the nitrous oxide. So two things. The nitrous oxide only works very briefly.

It works for like 15 seconds. And secondly, that laser procedure worked, Man, because the knees look so good after, like... What would your Nana say about you getting your knees lazy? Why not? She called me a stupid jackass. She said it not me.

Never said it, not me. I'm just saying, this is the only time I had the nitrous oxide, which I think is what you had. Anyway, whatever, I digress. So now the DEA's involved, and this, to me, spells serious trouble for this boyfriend who was with her, along with his brother, when she died. And by the way, the reporting yesterday, we didn't do a show on this yesterday. was that they didn't call 911 to report that Hayden was there dead until 150 in the afternoon. And Brian, the boyfriend, was still asleep.

Yeah, it was the brother. According to the reports. Okay. So you're asleep at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. You're doing the drugs too, in my opinion. That's what's likely to come out. And you tell me whether, Dave, the DEA getting involved in this telegraphs, yeah, federal charges may be under consideration.

Yeah. Look what happened to Matthew. Perry, the DEA got involved there because they're going to go find the source of the drugs. It used to be the law enforcement officers would just say, okay, it's another drug abuser who's died now a day as we look at the chain and try to find the ones who sold them the drugs. The problem is a lot of people who are in the throes of addiction have a number of drug dealers on speed dial, so it can be tough. But now you have the boyfriend who is involved, and he's got a criminal pass.

He's got a rap sheet. And so I think there's a lot more to it. I don't think this will be the end of this investigation. And one more thing, Megan, maybe you wouldn't have had saggy knees if your mom hadn't smoked during pregnancy. Once again, back to my mother's decisions. I mean, most of us born in the 70s have a picture with our mothers,

with their big pregnant bellies like resting a martini glass. Oh, with a cigarette in their hand. Right, with a cigarette in the hand. Makes you stronger. Makes you stronger. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. So you tell me, Ashley, would you be worried? I feel like this guy's defense attorney who represented him in his domestic violence cases is probably calling him saying, keep your mouth shut. Oh, yeah. Don't talk to the feds. Don't be helpful. Definitely. And there was a report just yesterday that cops were seen there now, I guess he and the brother are reportedly now staying with their mother, like their family of origin, Betty Ellison. And yesterday at 820 in the morning, page six of the New York Post, we're reporting exclusively that cops were seen sniffing around the home. They came. They knocked. Nobody answered, although people were inside. They left. They were reportedly conducting a, quote,

welfare check. And then I think they went back and did it again. So they're definitely sniffing around there. Oh, yeah. If I was Brian, the boyfriend, I would be really worried. I'd first be worried about his brother. So his brother, Zach, is a preacher and has apparently had, you know, strong feelings for Hayden in his life, whether or not they dated. There's been some rumors about that. But the reports are that he was just distraught when they found her. So if he cared for her that much and if he thinks his brother had something to do with her death, I'd be really worried about the police talking to him from a defense perspective.

I'd also be worried about the DEA poking around because they are, they're strong. And the DEA, when they start asking questions, people start talking. People get real scared. And so if he gave her these drugs, he had to get him from somewhere. He didn't make them, you know, he got him from somewhere. and folks are willing to talk when the feds come knocking. I wouldn't be as worried about the state charges because most likely he probably was using the drugs with her.

I mean, like you said, he was sleeping till noon. And there's actually defense in Tennessee state court if they had their own statute that you can be prosecuted if someone dies. South Carolina. Oh, I'm sorry, yeah. And so in South Carolina, they've got a statute where you can be prosecuted if someone dies

while they've basically taken drugs that you gave them. But if you did it together, that's a defense. So, you know, he might have a defense. of that. So crazy. But the feds I'd be really worried about. That's so wacky. It's really wacky. If you're as long as you shoot yourself up too or take the drugs as well, then you can get out of jail. It's a weird concept. But so here's, here's the report from TMZ this morning, Arthur. Police are not satisfied. Hayden Penitiers' death was a tragic overdose of prescribed meds because they are trying to determine if there could be criminal

conduct behind it. Law enforcement sources involved in the case tell TMZ they are conducting a death investigation to see if some illegality is behind her death. they said, yeah, Wednesday they went to the family home of her boyfriend Brian Hickerson. It would appear police want information from Brian regarding any circumstance that might be connected to her death. And then, you know, my team went through and there's a bunch of possible charges that could be brought federally, which would explain the DEA's interest in all of this if Brian Hickerson provided the drugs. I mean, the person who, the assistant who was getting the drugs from Matthew Perry got ultimately sentenced to 41 months in prison. But that's a great example of how it's kind of easier to find who gets the drugs. What

Dave said is right on. A lot of these guys, you know, unfortunately, I've been involved with deceased families as well. They want answers, right? And then when you eventually get into their phone, there's like eight numbers. There's 10 numbers. And yes, you try to go back and see, but then how do you prove, well, the drugs he got from John on Tuesday, and then he got drugs from Jose on Wednesday, how do you know which drugs he took and which ones had fentanyl and which ones didn't have fentanyl?

So as a prosecutor, Dave can tell you, it's very hard to eventually prosecute someone. With Perry, it was that all of those different drug dealers were going through one person, right? There was a bottleneck and it went through them and you were able to much more easily prove he's the guy who actually handed them the drugs.

But I got to tell you, like, I don't know if I'll ask Ashley and Dave overdosing on with him. It's like not something I don't even think I don't even think it's possible. I bet that wasn't it. Yeah. And by the way, the report.

It causes brain damage before death. The report about that may ingestion or attempted ingestion of drugs said it was both Whippets and alcohol, which she also shouldn't have been having if she was a recovering alcoholic as she was portraying. So it was multiple attempts to imbibes something, some sort of substance to, you know, get a high at a time when she was on this book tour. What were you going to say to him? Yeah.

The guy who was the assistant to Matthew Perry, Iwamasa. his name. He didn't just arrange for the drugs. He injected Perry with the fatal doses. Then he left and he found Perry dead in the hot tub and he tried to cover it up. So his fingerprints were all over this mess and he pled guilty. I'm not sure. But don't you think this guy could go down if we have no proof whatsoever of this, but if he did give her the drugs, even if there wasn't an injection situation? Yeah. He enabled if he was able to hand the drugs to her, yes, he could go down for it. They would need proof. And then you have the brother, perhaps testifying against his brother, especially if he was in love with her, as Ashley mentioned. So I, this is a very interesting situation

that I think you will see some charges down the road. But Arthur and I identified the problem if you're going to identify the source. If you're going to track the source, there are so many potential sources. It's easier to get right at the bottleneck, the brother or the, the, you know, the, you know, boyfriend who would have been there to give her the drug. All right. Stand by. We're going to take a quick break, but we have more to do, and then we got to hit on Lindsay Clancy. More with our Kelly's court team after this. Let's talk about something that isn't always the most comfortable subject, but it is incredibly important, and that is making sure the people you love have financial security if and when something happens to you.

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at ethos.com slash mk. That is eth-h-h-os.com slash mk. Application times may vary. Rates may vary too. Joining me now, Dave Aaronberg, Ashley Merchant, and Arthur Idaa. I'm trying to find a note, which is why I'm distracted here. On the Hayden-Penetierre thing, just before we move on from that, did you guys see the reports of her mother and what the mother said after her death this week? Her mother has emerged as like a villain in this whole thing.

She sounds like she was a terrible mother. First of all, you shove your kid into Hollywood as a baby and thereafter. It's such a terrible decision and it's so harmful to the child seems like reckless to me. So now her daughter was on camera and on the record in her book saying

I went to my mom when I was 19, she was 36 when she died this week. and said, mom, you can't be both my manager and my mother. Would you please just be my mother? And the mother's response, according to Hayden, was, you owe me. Wow. And wouldn't let go of the money roll. And now her name is Leslie Vogel.

She was a middling soap opera star in her day, which is, she didn't make it. So she wanted the daughter to make it. Vicariously living out of her. Yeah, recover her loft glory. So here she shares her first public comments to NBC after Hayden died. And this is what she said.

I mean, it's really crazy. This is, as Debbie Murphy put it to me, this sounds like something my doorman would say about me if I died. Like, this is how detached it was. I think Hayden was an amazingly talented person in so many departments. And I think young people who grow up in the entertainment industry, it is a struggle and it is a very challenging industry. And it's not unusual for them to, sadly, find the wrong path.

What? Is she on drugs? Like herself? Oh, my God. Right. That's what she said. She said that her last conversation was in October, that they'd been texting a bit, but not in some time. No contact was a choice I made for very specific reasons.

And, you know, certainly not for lack of care, concern, or love. She said she wished things could have been different. I think it becomes very difficult to be true to yourself. I think Hayden sadly lost her way. And I wish it were different. Yeah, like that you hadn't been her mother. Oh my God. She did go on to say she ripped on Brian.

That was her other contribution. We can all agree on that. He was a terrible person to have in Hayden's life. This person in her life that we've been trying to get rid of for quite some time was with her at her death. That was Brian Higgerson. There's a lot of history in the past that Brian has enabled Hayden many times. And this is why her father and I had been concerned for a long time about him. By the way, there's another report out today about this is a witness who lived next to Hayden

who said that she saw the stretcher taking Hayden out. This is, I think, back a couple years ago. Right. Not that long ago, maybe like 2025. She said she was clearly terrified. You could see the look in her eyes. She was clearly battered. You could see, I guess she had some bruising or something.

She identified her as being battered. And she said you could see she was really scared. And it's not like she slipped off a ladder and like bumped her head. They were taken out of the shoot. There were real issues. And this is during the time where that restraining order would have been in place.

So they were both obviously willingly violating it. But can I just tell you guys one other thing? So Yashara Ali, who's a great reporter, he went back and found the statement that

that the mother made after her memoir hit in May. And it's even worse than the one I just read. She says, there's a personality style, which manifests as a need for control, entitlement, and a lack of empathy.

She's not speaking of herself. She's speaking of her daughter. Wow. The major fear is that someone will see through the mask that they present to the world and discover who they truthfully are. This condition cannot be fixed, regardless of continual efforts to support or comfort. No matter the encouragement given, it will never be enough. And listen to this. After 20 years of trauma, I took the advice.

of professionals and chose the no contact route. This is the mother saying she's been traumatized by 20 years from Hayden. So what? From 16 to 36, from all the time she was a huge star, the child traumatized the mother. Oh my gosh. She says, as many parents of entertainment children know, we are all too familiar with the painful observation of watching the self-destructive paths they sometimes choose. No parent hopes for this scenario.

Totally no responsibility for the fact that she put her in the industry, but she was a baby doing commercials. One more. Sadly, this is not... Sadly, this is out of our control. You cannot save someone who does not want to be saved. Radical acceptance is the most difficult challenge any parent must embrace. Unfortunately, I've spent a great deal of such... I've seen a great deal of such in my life experience. I guess she's referring to her 20 years of trauma caused by her rich, famous daughter,

who only wanted a mother, Ashley, and couldn't get one. Didn't want her mother to run her career. and do that, just wanted her to be a mother. I mean, she's got to feel some responsibility, but it doesn't sound like she's taking any responsibility at this point. What a disgusting pig. This doesn't sound like she said. We're ripping on our moms for a couple cigarettes while we were present.

They were pregnant with us. This is actual abusiveness. This is actual abuse. This kind of emotional abuse. How about I'm distraught about the loss of my daughter. It's against the natural order to lose your child. Unless I missed it, I didn't hear any of that in there. Megan, this was a prepared statement.

This wasn't sponsored. She had time to think about this and issue this? She gave an interview to NBC and just went off on how tough it was. I guess for her when Hayden was still alive and how, you know, this arms link like, geez, it's a tough business. She wasn't able to get it back under control. It's like, no wonder this girl turned to drugs, you know? That's my takeaway. All right, let's keep going.

Maybe she had bad knees. You know, I could have helped her out. She called me out. That's what she needed the witness for. One time was enough for that procedure, though. I mean, like, one time was plenty. It hurt. Okay, Lindsay Clancy.

Arthur and I was just talking about this during the break. Everyone knows you have to be nuts. You have to be nuts on some level to kill your children. Like, that's basically what the defense has going for it, right? Isn't that the number one thing the defense has going for it? Yeah, and she loved her kids. Only a crazy person would kill their children. Right.

So how does the prosecution overcome that? Let me start with you, Dave, on that question. I think the prosecution overcharged. I think they should have focused on a lesser charge involuntary manslaughter. If you overcharge, you lose credibility with the jury. It's going to be so hard to convict her first degree premeditated murder, especially because they have medical experts that say, yes, sometimes she was lucid, and you can be lucid even when you're under the throes of psychosis.

But I would focus on some of the things that the prosecution has pointed out, and I would lean into that. So, for example, if Lindsay Clancy was completely consumed by this postpartum psychosis, then why was her first question when she woke up on the hospital about getting herself legal representation? Not about our kids, right? Not about anguish over their deaths. And so I would try to poke holes in the defenses narrative that here's this poor woman who couldn't control herself. She was under all these drugs and psychosis. And you say, well, after the fog cleared, she didn't ask about her kids. She didn't seem too caught up about it. And she was,

except when she's in front of you, the jurors, here at trial. So I would try to do that. But in the end, I think the prosecution has a tough case. I think they overcharge. I'd be surprised if they can get a conviction even of a lesser charge. The other thing is, Ashley, you know, there's she sent the husband out. She sent him to the CVS and to the restaurant to pick up food for the family. It seemed calculated.

She had Googled how long the trip would take. She seemed like a methodical killer getting rid of the one eyewitness who would stop it. Yeah. And that, you know, she was determined to sort of. to lay the plan out. And then there was testimony this week from somebody in the facility with her where she's being held saying the one date, like the dates that she never acknowledges are her children's birthdays. She seemed absolutely fine on each one of their, what would have been, their birthdays, having really good strong days where she was kind of enjoying herself. And like,

doesn't seem to miss them. But one of the things that I think is important to remember is that she's medicated. So like Dave's talking about what she says when she first wakes up, she's intubated at that point. She is heavily sedated at that point. And now when she is in this psychiatric facility, she is on a lot of medication. I guarantee she is on a lot of medication. And it dulls her. And so anytime, you know, her reaction to maybe her children's birthday, I'm sure that they're watching her very closely on those days. I'm sure they're trying to keep her occupied because they know her suicide risk is super high. They've also got her on some heavy medication. Stand by. Hold the rest of that thought. I'm going to hold you guys over because there's a lot more to discuss in this case, including why they're ending early and why the jurors were called up one by one this morning. Stand by.

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Sirius XM 11, and on the Sirius XM app. Were you aware that on May 26, 2023, that the defendant was observed by staff in a note stating that she was visible along the unit hallways, self-propelling her wheelchair. She had a visit with her mother. heard they ate and played games during the visit. Are you aware of that? That would have been

approximately four months after the incident and on the date of Callan's first birthday. Right? Yes. How about on January 24th, 24, where she's observed

in a note from Tewksbury State Hospital patient was visible in the milieu, engageable with both staff and select peers, that she was pleasant during interactions, self-propelling in wheelchair in the halls, spending much of the morning and early afternoon in her room and hall on her electronics. Do you recall reading that record?

Not specifically. In January 24th, 2024 would have been the year anniversary of the incident, correct? Yes. This is the prosecutor trying to establish that Lindsay Clancy's handling the anniversaries of her children's, well, birthdays, you know, their birthday in heaven. just fine without much emotionality. Welcome back to the MK show. Arthur I Adela is here, Dave Aaronberg as well,

and Ashley Merchant, all back with me. So let's talk a bit about what's happening inside that courtroom as they're trying to make their case. Then we'll get into what happened with the jurors today. They had Lindsay's mom take the stand, and her name is Paula Musgrove. Here's a bit of what she said in Satt. Why don't we just play them back?

to back 28 and 29. Do you recall the end of January that she made a statement to you about the medication and her opinion what it was doing to her mind? Yes. What did she say? She said that she couldn't remember anything. The medication was pretty much just destroying her mind and it wasn't her. She said that this isn't me. I just want to feel better and enjoy my kids again. The next message that you're referring to, would that be on October 20th of 2022? Yes. And do you have that on your phone right now? I do.

Can you just pull that up for us? I can't. Just give me a moment. Would you read that for the jury? Mom, will you please come up and stay with me for a bit? I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night, and I just don't know how on my.

going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine, my doctor prescribed for anxiety, and I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary, and I don't want to be alone. So, Ashley, this is the defense trying to paint a picture of a woman who's deteriorating on medicine that is not being well managed by her physicians and recognizing that she's changing in a way that's very disturbing to her and the mother backing her up. up on it. There was also testimony that the mother had texted Lindsay after the last visit, so great to see you doing better, which was a day before the children were killed. And the mother kind of tried to disown it being like, oh, I was just trying to be encouraging. I didn't actually

see her better. But, I mean, try to explain for us what they're really arguing over, because there's no doubt that Lindsay Clancy killed the children. Right. There's no doubt she strangled them one by one with an exercise cord, not the, not the band. they've been referring to them as like the bands. No, the cords, like a bungee looking cord, which is just brutal in the basement. And then she jumped out the window. The only real debate is whether she did it

because she had postpartum psychosis or she was just regular nuts. Right. Right. Like in the sense, anybody's nuts who kills their children. Right, exactly. Just, you know, well, the prosecution is charged it,

though, as first degree murder. So they're saying that she did this on purpose, that she had a plan, she wanted her kids dead. So I think what the defense is doing is they're building really a timeline. And I expect in closing arguments we'll see this timeline where Lindsay was reaching out for help repeatedly. They're changing medications. And I think one thing that might resonate with the jury are these medications. I mean, they're medications that are meant to alter your brain. That's what they do. And they were prescribing these. She was going on them. She was going off of them. They were doubling

dosage. They were switching dosages. Some of those actually are antidepressants that could drive you into mania. We had a guest on our show, MK True Crime earlier this week, who treats actual postpartum moms regularly and was talking to us about that and talking about how you don't act a certain way all the time. It fluctuates. And was talking about how, you know, you could be in psychosis for one minute and then you seem normal and fine the next minute and how this is really something that fluctuates regularly. So I think at the end, I think the defense will tie all of this up in a bow for us. They're just laying the little pieces. They're putting all the little bricks out. And then they're going to build this house in closing where they say, look, you know, she's repeatedly reaching out.

And, you know, I think having her reach out to her mom, that's something that's reasonable. That's something that she would be honest with her mom, you know, I need help. And I think that really helps the defense because it shows that she really did need help and she really was suffering. There's the cross-examination, however, of the mother, Paula Musgrove. And here's a bit of it. South 31. And when she made the statement that she had thoughts of harming the children, did either you or Patrick ask her what she meant by that? I believe I remember Pat asking her if she felt like she couldn't be alone with the children and she said no.

And after she made those statements, did you have any thoughts about committing her? No. Did you have any thoughts about having her come stay with you in Connecticut away from the children? No. Were you concerned for the children's safety at that point in time? No, because I was there. Sorry, I should have played the Assad that came before that, which is where she testified that Lindsay did say she had thoughts of harming the children.

And the cross-examination was basically, did she say she didn't think she could be alone with them? And the mother's saying no. I mean, it does make you wonder, like, as a parent, if your spouse says, I'm having thoughts of hurting my children, I don't really give a shit. Game over. Right.

Do you think you can be alone with that? Game over. But, Meg, you just ask Ashley a question. What's this trial really about? What it's really about, so everyone understands, is housing. Where is she going to spend the next three or four decades? We know she's not, it's not going to be walking around society. So the prosecutor wants her to be in a prison and the defense wants her to be in a mental

hospital. And I don't know the state of mental hospitals in Massachusetts, but where I am, it's not like the hospital where you've given. birth. It's not a pleasant place to be. And I know in New York, because I've been in this position, people who get convicted of murder actually wind up being out in society sooner than people who are committed because they committed murder by reason. They're found not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. Because if you shoot someone because he's in a gang and you're dealing drugs, by the time you're 30 years later, they think that that's over. But when you're nuts and you did

something. I don't mean to say nuts, but you know what I mean. The doctors don't know. Can you come out in society? Can you not come out in society? You did this without rational thought. The gang member that kills the gang member, there's a lot of rational. There's there's street cred. There's money. There's pressure from gangs. But you do something like this. They don't know if you're going to do it again in some form of fashion. So this trial is just about where is she going to be housed, warehouse for the next 30 or 40 years until she dies. I mean, I don't know, Dave, so the people who are very angry at her for these murders, you know, for these killings, which one should they be rooting for? Because what if it is like involuntary manslaughter

included as a lesser charge? Because if she gets that, that's a quick turnaround. She should, she'd be in and out in a relatively small amount of years versus if she got sentenced under the, you know, to the two, a mental health facility where she might have to stay longer. Without any oversight too, Megan. I mean, if she gets out quickly, there's no lengthy probation. If she's in a mental institution, if she's released from that, she's going to go to sort of a step-down program. She'll go to a less restrictive alternative, but she'll still have to check in. So she'll still have to be medicated. She'll have to maybe take long-acting injectables, maybe make sure that, you know, she can prove she's going to therapy, things like that. There's going to be some

oversight where if she got convicted of something lesser and, you know, essentially got time served, there's no oversight, nothing. Is it a lesser, do we know whether there are lesser included charges that the jury's going to be charged with? You don't usually know until the very end, but most likely they will ask for it. So what the law says is if there is any evidence to support that, the judge has to give those charges. So typically the defense would ask for them at the end.

It's a strategy call, though, and we may see a fight over that. You know, Kevin Redington may not want that. You may not want to give them that option. The defense will want all or nothing. The prosecution should hope they can get the lesser inclusions in there. If they get involuntary manslaughter, you can get her up to 20 years in prison. But keep in mind, she's also sentenced to life with paralysis because of what she did and threw herself out the window.

She's in that wheelchair for life. So that's something she's going to have to deal with. And if she gets sent to a mental hospital, she could be released early on. I mean, especially if she shows extended periods of being lucid like she did beforehand. She was very calculated in her planning. So perhaps if she is seen as lucid again after she's acquitted by reasons of insanity, she could get out of that mental institution early. early. So it's a, it's a tough call. Arthur's right. She's not going free no matter what. It's a question of whether she is in a prison or a mental institution, but she'll be in that wheelchair for life.

I mean, I feel no sympathy for her there. Like you killed your kids and you jumped out of window. Okay. That's, you know, you know what? That's why you're going to be in a wheelchair. Oh, well. Dave, I don't think there, I don't think any doctors. Doctors would have to, I think, recommend for her to be released. And then the judge would have to agree with them that she should be released if she's in a mental institution. I don't see, especially a case of this notoriety, three deaths and that there are children. I don't see any doctor signing any time soon that she's going anywhere. But I do have a question about, like, what is he arguing, Dave? What is she, the prosecutors of she, is her, because like this isn't a case where Lindsay Clancy was having an affair and the guy didn't want children.

You know, we saw that, right? We've seen that before. So she wanted to get rid of them. and she wanted a new life. Like, she threw herself out the window. Like she, this woman clearly, in my view, clearly wanted to die. She wasn't well. There's tons of documentation that she was losing it mentally.

She did try to seek help repeatedly. These doctors seemed terrible, not managing her medication once they gave it to her. So like, I'm not excusing anything. I think she should probably be convicted. I'm not totally convinced she heard the voices at all. But my point is simply like, what's the prosecution's theory that, like, she is nuts. She's just not legally nuts.

Or is it like, no, she's a cold calculating bitch who decided to take out those kids. And then this was a fake suicide attempt when she jumped out the window. That's it. No, it's the latter. And that's the problem because she looks at least to some sympathetic there in front of her, in front of the jury in the wheelchair. She was bawling when she heard about the kids at the trial. And there's no evidence.

The autopsy report. The autopsy report. Also, this is not like Casey Anthony. where Casey Ante wanted to go on the party scene and get rid of her daughter or like Susan Smith who was buried with these three

like these three kids like loaded down with them and wanted to go and sleep around so this is different there's really no evidence that she was out there on Tinder trying to have a new life and that's why it's going to be harder

for a jury to say what is the motivation other than that she was crazy that she was overmedicated and the fact that she threw herself out the window and according to her own experts landed on her head, her neck in an attempt to kill herself.

That will, I think, move enough jurors that it's going to be nearly impossible to get a conviction unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt. Is there a chance then? I mean, like, it's just now dawning on me that is there, is there a possibility of not guilty? No. Okay. It's either. No.

They're admitting that she did it. That's why you're saying. It's just an argument over where she's going to go. That's where it is. And what Dave just said, though, it is hard to say that she had either. evil in her heart. Unlike Andrew E.H. Right. She drowned the kids, but then she didn't wind up in a wheelchair.

I mean, Maggie, you're diving out of, diving. She didn't jump out the window. She dove out the window and landed on her head. Seems pretty clear she wanted to die. Yeah. I accept that I have been, I'm convinced that she wanted to die. I don't, it doesn't exist. With the voices or without the She still wants to. But I'm not convinced on the,

on the psychosis. I'm really not. Like, so if I, if I'm a juror, Ashley and I have to find psychosis, you know, that she's hearing the voices, which she's, there's been some testimony. I'm not, I'm not going to find that. But is she nuts? Right. Like, did she do this because she just decide? Because it seems like the prosecutor is trying to say she, she, we've talked about that

Facebook post that Lindsay Clancy made about her son, about how he's just so difficult and like all day long and he won't agree with anything. And she sounds extremely frustrated. It seems like the prosecutor's trying to say, she's a nasty short temper. mother who just hated the burden of motherhood. There's no evidence of that. Well, I mean, you know, some bitching about, she does talk about her children in a way that's very off-putting. I mean, I can't imagine publicly complaining about my child the way she did about him.

But is that really where the prosecution's going? They're not going with, no, no, no, no, no. There has to be like the defense now has the burden of proving psychosis. And trust me, members of the jury, they won't be able to do that. And that's not what they're doing. They just don't really have any evidence that she wanted her kids dead. I think that is the big gaping hole in this case. Everybody who's testified said, I mean, she was a labor and delivery nurse. She wanted a large family. She loved her family, loved her kids. And that she was suffering. Luckily, they don't have to prove that she actually heard a voice. So, you know, that's one of the things that

they keep talking about. And it definitely, yes, it definitely helps. The defense has a burden here too, since they've asserted not guilty by reason and mental defense. Exactly. As long as they think that her mental, essentially her mental illness is what caused this. I mean, essentially, that's what they've got to argue and that's what they've got to prove. As long as they do that, then she could get the not guilty by reason of insanity. I also think it's important because one of the experts who has actually witnessed her, her psychologist, or actually it was her psychiatrist, who started treating her right after this, has been seeing her, has seen her over 50 times in the Mental Institute. He testified that she is actually so suicidal still to this day that she requires one-on-one supervision. So she

can't really be out of anyone's sight because she is that close to being suicidal at any given time. So I think that, you know, they've spent, unless it comes to the kids' birthdays, in which case, she's like, I'm good. She's playing back, Ammon. I'm good. You know what she brought up Ashley did? I forgot. She was a labor and delivery nurse. Hold that thought because I got to let Dave go. I know he's got another obligation. Thank you so much for being here. Dave. Great to see you as always. Thank you to be continued. Yeah. Ashley and Arthur continue. Keep going on. The labor and delivery nurse. The mother was. I mean, that's someone who deals with kids all the time. Be, I mean, there was an eight-month-old that died here.

I mean, you know, that just adds an aggravating factor of, of, I mean, again, Maggie, you started off the same way saying, you got to be crazy to do this. And, you know, I, I, if I was the prosecutor, the elected DA or whatever they call in there, or state attorney, I would have worked this out where I would, as you said, look, just agree that you're- Lancy was a nurse, but it was her mother who was a labor and delivery nurse for like 38 years. I don't know what kind of a nurse Lindsay was. But there was testimony. She was like super fastidious.

She was like down to the minute on the kids' schedules, including the moment they had to be asleep. I mean, not everybody's cut out for motherhood. I got to say, truly, like, you can't be this fucking uptight and have kids. You're just like. You're just like. She did that weird sleep training thing. I remember that. I was like, I thought that.

I didn't even know that was a thing still, some weird sleep training thing where she was so rigid with the sleep. And this third kid just didn't want to do the sleep training. But yeah, that was odd. But it seems like she comes from a long line of labor and delivery nurses, too, because her mother-in-law, her mother, she was, to me, and I think a lot of jurors will agree with this, that means she likes babies. You know, you're not going there delivering babies if you don't like them. And so when she's not in this psychosis, she likes babies.

There's been a lot of evidence she wanted a lot of kids and that she was otherwise a good mom. I think that strengthens this temporary insanity almost, you know. And I hate to use the word temporary because she obviously had a long line of mental illness, but it seems like it just temporarily got out of control at this point. I mean, obviously, way out of control. It just seemed like I don't agree with Lisa Renna of the real housewives that Patrick is the real killer, the husband. Not even, not even Lindsay's arguing that. But the more I learned, the more disgusted I am with him, I got to be honest.

It's like, so you knew your wife was in crisis. You saw her deteriorate. you knew that she was having thoughts of hurting the children. You were told by the doctor she was bipolar and you said, my wife is not bipolar. You are working from home because you're worried about her. And yet in the midst of all that, you do allow her to be alone with the children ever.

And the mother, too, kind of failed her of no disrespect to that mom. But like the mom was there. She said, no, I wasn't worried that she was going to hurt the children because we were there. But then you left. Why was she ever allowed to be alone with these children? she was failed by these doctors, the hospitals, her husband, her family. But it's to some degree, man, it's like inconceivable. Like, is your wife really going to kill your three kids?

Even her mother-in-law, and one of the women in my office said, mother-in-laws hate their daughter-in-laws, but even the mother-in-law said when I saw her, she was a very good mom. She was a very good mom. I agree. You go into it thinking she would never. I'm mad right. Except when the spouse comes to you and says,

I'm thinking about hurting the children. In which case you're like, I'm hearing voices. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. This is a five alarm fire now. You will not be being, you will not have any alone time with them.

You're right. You're right. And they have a nanny. Bring the nanny back in. God knows what he's doing in his mind right now. No, but every parent knows you love your spouse. You adore your spouse and you have to be a united front when it comes to discipline with the children and all that stuff.

But like, if there's any possibility your spouse is going to hurt your child, you're on the side of the child. The divisions. don't that's not a situation where you back the spouse um there was a testimony it was kind of interesting how they got it in about her hearing the voice and you mentioned that that psychiatrist the guy who treated her dr paul zaisal he was on the stand and here's top 36 listen to this one she wanted to know how he was doing she wanted to know if she could call him and find out her husband where things are with her and with him and how he was fairing

and to just speak with him. After the murderous. She told Patrick that she loved him very much. She was unable to express a lot of emotion, but she expressed love for him. And she had said that she heard a male voice ordering her, telling her that she didn't have any choice, but she had to kill her children.

and then kill herself. Why did you let her call her husband on your cell phone? I let her call a husband out of human compassion. Isn't that, why wasn't there a hearsay objection there? That's a lot of, that's quite a back-ended way to get in that she heard voices. Yeah, well, the prosecutor would be the one, right, objecting to that coming out. Why wouldn't the prosecutor object to that? Well, sometimes they don't always know.

then I don't always know what they're doing. They make mistakes. That's why they call it the practice of law. We're still practicing. We never get it right. I don't know. I don't think that was, I would have been on my feet saying that's not coming in.

Not this way. I think that's the only way it came in. Here's the cross-examination. The same guy, Sot 37. How many times has she told you since the incident that she's heard a voice currently? She has not heard voices since the event. placed in 2023.

And you've now testified that over the course of a period of time that she did hear voices, right? Yes. And is that based on one of these 35 hours

worth of conversations you had with her? How do you know that? Well, they were collateral contacts. I spoke to other people. I spoke to other people. who I asked the nature of their interactions with Ms. Clancy. And it was not a fishing expedition. I mean, this is the most back-ended way of getting in that she alleged they heard voices.

That's what I say, I'm not convinced. But this is the prosecutor bringing in. Yeah, I know, which is also ridiculous, Ashley. Well, I think the prosecutor probably wanted it to come in. So that's why she didn't object during, you know, when the defense asked it. I think this prosecution, we can only imagine because, you know, they're doing something weird that none of us really understand. But it seems like they're trying to argue, well, she only said she heard voices once. So, you know, and she hasn't heard them since.

They keep hanging on this. She hasn't heard them since. She hasn't been psychotic since. And all I keep thinking is that's because she's treated now. She's literally institutionalized and treated. Of course she's okay now. She was on medications before, though. I mean, like, have they found some new cocktail that's stopping the voice?

that she wasn't out of the war? But Meg, apparently that's a real thing. Yeah. Like these cocktails and... Like lithium. I had a friend who was going through bad depression and it took them like two years. And now he's like, Mr. Happy Go Lucky. But he said...

Ventures backside? No, no, not that happy. But he said, he goes, it took a while for them to medicate me and whatever. I don't know enough about that to talk about it. But it took a while for him. And Ashley's right. Like, in other words, she's now, I'm sure, on a different regimen. She's sleeping.

Insanely supervised, right? There's people with. all the time. And I mean, the voices to me are irrelevant. The only thing that we haven't discussed, Ashley, is, yeah, she's sleeping, is this is Massachusetts. It's not Texas. You know, no. And you can see that, Megan, in their laws. So their law is so different than most states' laws just on this not guilty by reason of insanity. As soon as the defense raises it, the state has a burden to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And that is rare. Most states do not have that. Most states,

the burden is on the defense. So this is a really high standard. And we have what will probably be a very liberal jury hearing with a very liberal law. So, you know, I think that's definitely going to work in the defense's favor. You're going to have a higher number of bleeding hearts on a Massachusetts jury. You would, yeah, one would think. And the law, like, the law in California, we talked about this when Nick Reiner got charged. The law in California on self-defense is tough. It's very tough. And the practice, like the way the trials have panned out, a mass. Matt Murphy's been talking about this because he was a lifelong prosecutor out there. Listen to this one.

There is this case that's often cited in California law schools as an example that severe mental illness does not equal legal insanity. It's the case of Richard Chase, the vampire of Sacramento, 1979, killed six people between December 77 and January 78. All of his victims were chosen at random. One was a pregnant woman. he drank her blood after he mixed it with yogurt. Oh my God. Primary motive behind these murders was the mutilation of the bodies and the consumption of their blood and organs. Sorry, fewer warning. Chase had a delusional belief that he needed to consume the blood of other beings to replenish his own supply. He had been treated in psychiatric hospitals before the murders.

One time, he was taken to the ER of American River Hospital having injected rabbit's blood into his veins. He was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He was on psychotropic drugs. He tried to use an insanity defense. The defense argued that he was a paranoid schizophrenic who believed his blood was turning to powder. The jury deliberated for 65 minutes before ruling that he was sane under California law at the time of the commission of the murder sentenced to death, later died in prison. California is hardcore. If that doesn't get you the insanity defense, I don't know what would, but it does come down to how the judge is going to charge the jury on what's what equals insanity or mental defect. I mean, that's the entire real ballgame. Is it not? Right. It definitely is.

And Massachusetts has very good jury charges for the defense on that. So I think that is definitely going to work in their favor. Wow. So I don't know. Maybe we should be rooting for it since we all agree that if the jury could consider a lesser included, she's probably going to be out in no time at all. Well, I don't know about no time at all, but definitely less time than if she goes to a hospital. As he said, a case of this magnitude, three deaths, then you add the aggravating factor, they're three children. Then you add, they're her children. Then you add that this is a huge media case.

You know, she's not going anywhere anytime. And also, I mean, if she's that suicidal, she's not going to get out because the standard is of danger to herself or others. So, you know, I'm with Arthur. I think she'll serve a lot of time in a state mental institution. We have to spend one minute discussing the insane, weird leftist mothers all over TikTok who are posting these videos. There's something wrong with our society, something deeply wrong. What about the Luigi fans?

Yes. So there's like this whole trend of like these young moms who are like, oh, she speaks for all of us. Being a mother so hard. We just stop. Stop it. Half the battle is mind over matter. You know, it can be challenging. Sometimes babies cry a lot.

You know what? There are ways of managing it and you don't have to be a nutcase about it. It's a baby. You know, like there are ways. Ideally, you get some help. If you can't afford some help, you've got to lean on a family member. Ideally, if your family member's not there, you lean on your spouse or you just remove yourself from the room. But you don't have to be doing weird TikToks of yourself, like, behaving very strangely with your baby.

Here's, now they're pretending. That's what's so weird about these videos. And this is a trend. Here's one of a mom pretending to be overwhelmed with her new. newborn. And while she plays the audio of Kevin Reddington, that's Lindsay's defense lawyer, reading her diary entries. Watch this, not 41. I'm desperate to get a mental break from taking care of everyone. My mind is trying to make something physically wrong with me. My mind never shuts off. It's constantly thinking of the next thing someone needs. I can't shut it off. I desperately want to

go back to work, but now I don't know how I'm going to function and it worries me. Wrote that, right? Correct. There were two consecutive or two pages that were blank that she didn't even write on. And then on the third entry, affirmations, she wrote affirmations on November 22nd of 2022. I am calm. I will remain calm today. There is nothing that needs to be on my mind. The weight is lifted from my mind.

I will sleep tonight. Okay. For the listening audience, there's a woman in her maybe late 20s, holding an adorable baby who seems... Adorable baby. She's yawning. He wasn't crying. Younger. He looks younger. He looks younger. She's rocking him back and forth. He's not crying at all. She's doing fake sad faces.

There's not a tear in her eyes. And she just keep throwing her head back and trying to look distraught. So her baby looks perfect and easy. And she wants in on the what? And look, I don't, I really don't mean to be light of things. But we all know that infants especially and those it could get overwhelming but now in the palm of our hands with this little phone thing we call there's so much relief there's like the calm up that to calm the kid to calm yourself there's so much stress management you know i think about my grandmother and my great grandmother who had 11 children Megan 11 children both sides of my family had 11 like yeah

both well because they would die i mean that's you know i'm talking about in the early 1900s like the three i think on both sides died So, like, you know, yes, it stinks sometimes. It's overwhelming sometimes. But, you know, there's a long, there's a lot of real estate between being overwhelmed and mental illness to the point where you're jumping out a window and onto your head after you kill three people. Yeah.

I mean, so. Again, not everybody should be a mother. Like, if you can't handle stress in your regular life, if you're full of anxiety all the time, it might not be for you. Right. And a lot more people should be your fault. Where are the dads with this TikTok? Like, what's happening when the family members are seeing these TikToks where these people

are talking about this? I mean, is someone showing up on their door making sure that the kids are okay? We know they're probably faking it. Well, these women are setting up their eye light, their little spotlight on them. You know, make sure the natural light hits me just right while I look super sad with my baby. I swear I'm super sad. That's what the fathers don't care. No, they know it's attention.

It's attention taking. It's all it is. Who would put this shit on their on their Instagram, the stuff? Wait, I want to show you something. When my oldest was born, I doubt. downloaded, it was like the iPhone came out in 2007. He's born in 2008. I downloaded this app on my phone. And it is a miracle app. It's got this rattle. And if you shake it, like the thing moves. I'm going to show it to you. And I use it. If there's like a crying baby on an airplane, I always go over to try to help the mom. Because this app is like a miracle thing for babies. And it worked on all three of my kids so well. It works on people's strangers, babies. And then they all say, of course, what is the app? And unfortunately, the app only says,

Arthur, tell the audience what it's labeled there. Hold on. Baby, B-A-B-Y. Wow. It's an adorable little picture of a baby. Baby. With a picture of a little baby. So I'm like, I got nothing.

I don't know how to tell you how to find this app. But I'm going to show you here. Can you see it? Like, I can hear it. Yeah. If you shake it, little balls move around. It's funny. The little rattle balls.

They love it. Every baby on earth loves this crap. Now maybe there's another app where you can find this. We all had something. Like I had one kid who liked it's a swing, one who liked that little like vibrating chair. I mean, there's so many things that you can get. But this is like a magic. That looks magic.

I'm telling you. And it's in the palm of your hand. I don't know. Don't know how to recreate. In any event, I have no tolerance for these actresses who, you know, it's either, you know, get help or keep it to yourself. Like, don't go on the fucking tick, sorry, TikTok. As I said, I'm being sincere, there's so much relief on your phone. There's so many ways to deal with this.

Now with AI, okay, my baby's been crying for three hours. What the hell do I do? And it'll give you seven suggestions. Yes, exactly. Put an ice cube in its hand, like something. One of them is not go on TikTok. No. I don't think any of them are.

Go on TikTok. So what do we think? Final predictions on this case, how it's likely to come down, Arthur? I think the jury, I don't think the, be able to unanimously find she intentionally killed these kids and i mean the the reasonable doubt fact is hard diving out a window yeah i mean that that harm to herself it's too difficult to say she's like this evil person so i think she'll be in a mental institution and and again actually accurately points out if the doctors think she's going to hurt herself anywhere along the line they

will not let her go so she'll be there and she's in this wheelchair and i don't expect her to have a long life expectancy. What about you? I'm with Arthur. I think that it's not guilty by reason and sanity. And I think that we're going to hear from the jurors that they don't like how the state presented their case. I think they're going to be very critical. And I think one of the things that they're going to say was a big decision-making factor for them was the fact that she had no motive. She didn't want her kids dead. And so without evidence that she actually, other than that one little Facebook post that she actually, and it wasn't even that she wanted her kids dead. It was that, you know, her kid was crying and she was tired. I think they're going to say there was no motive.

She wasn't handling it well. Yeah. She wasn't handling it well, obviously. Great to see you, Ashley. Thanks for being here. You as well, Arthur. So good to have you here in the studio. I've got some great Italian bread from Brooklyn downstairs for you when you're ready. If you're allowed to eat, I mean, I know, like Dougate. We're doing that now. Okay, I'm down. All right. We're going to stay on this. By the way, there's speculation that closing arguments could come as soon as Monday. All of us is broadcast. I love these trials that actually allow cameras in the courtroom. They're so helpful. And you get such a, you know, better accurate picture of what's going on inside the room than you can when they don't allow it. So thank you for that. Massachusetts. And thank you. Thanks to all of you. Enjoy your weekend. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. Today's episode was brought to you by Super Sure.