The Megyn Kelly Show - Hunter Biden's Daughter's Mother Lunden Roberts Speaks Out, and Glenn Loury on Overcoming His Demons and Succeeding in Academia | Ep. 813

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Megyn Kelly is joined by Glenn Loury, author of "Late Admissions," to discuss the racial attacks on Justice Clarence Thomas, outrageous claims of Thomas "grifting," Rep. Byron Donalds being targeted now and the collapse of the Black family post-Jim Crow, Joy Reid and Elie Mystal attacking them on MSNBC, the New York Times' profile of Ibram X. Kendi exposing his fall from grace, how his racist ideas have fallen out of favor, the reason he decided to write a deeply personal tell-all book, his admissions about drugs and sexual encounters, the response he's gotten to the book, his upbringing and his thoughts on President Obama, and more. Then Lunden Roberts, author of "Out of the Shadows," to discuss the first time she met Hunter Biden while he was wearing boxers and doing drugs, how it was much more than a one-night stand, her empathy towards his addiction, how her cell phones were mysteriously wiped shortly after she found out she was pregnant, how it appeared someone was deleting records of a relationship with Hunter, Hunter's reaction at first and then later, her choice to go through with the pregnancy and lessons for other women, how she felt hurt and ignored by the entire family, Jill Biden's hurtful exclusion of her granddaughter Navy, the callous way Hunter talked about her in his book, having to file a lawsuit against Hunter to admit paternity, what it's like for her daughter to have President Biden as a grandpa, how it will affect Navy in the future, and more.Loury- https://glennloury.substack.com/Roberts- https://www.amazon.com/Out-Shadows-Inside-World-Hunter/dp/151078229XFollow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Oh, we have a great program for you lined up today. Later, we're going to be joined by London Roberts. Who's London Roberts? She is the mother of President Biden's grandchild that he only recently acknowledged under pressure from the left to be more humane and to actually say publicly he has a seventh grandchild, notwithstanding the six grandchildren stockings posted on the White House mantle at Christmastime and Jill Biden posting only about her six grandchildren.

They knew they had seven. They knew that Hunter had fathered a child named Navy with a woman from Arkansas named London. Well, London's here today. She's speaking out on her experience with the Biden family and more. But we begin with a favorite of the MK show, Glenn Lowry. But it'll be a different conversation than others you have seen and heard with him in the past. Glenn has just released a new memoir in which he tells all, and I do mean all. All right, So there's a lot to get to with him. His book is called Late Admissions, Confessions of a Black Conservative. It's available right now. And oh my God, I'm begging you to go buy this book. It's well worth your time. I think you're going to find it somewhat shocking.

Glenn, welcome back to the show. Great to have you. Good to be with you, Megan. Thank you. Okay. So this is fascinating because you are one of my you. Good to be with you, Megan. Thank you. Okay, so this is fascinating because you are one of my heroes. And man, do you lay it bare. You lay it bare in this book. I'm going to start with the New York Times, part of the New York Times review of your book, which my husband Doug read to me out loud. He loves you too. And he's like, oh my gosh. And I couldn't believe it's from the book. This is not the New York Times writer trying to slam you. He's actually accurately representing portions of the book. It reads as follows. Glenn C. Lowry's new book, Late Admissions, is unlike any economist memoir I have ever read. Most don't mention picking up streetwalkers or smoking crack in a faculty

office at Harvard's Kennedy School or in an airplane at 30,000 feet or stealing a car or having sex on a beach in Israel with a mistress and attracting the attention of the Israeli defense forces or later being arrested and charged with assaulting her or cuckolding a best friend or abandoning children born out of wedlock or becoming estranged from the children that weren't or writing computer code to win a blackjack or having a porn addiction or keeping a bachelor pleasure dome decorated with a bare skin rug, a brass four-poster bed, and a fat marijuana plant, or sidling around in a paisley smoking jacket with a matching ascot because it, quote, radiated suave sophistication and Hefner-esque cool, or sneaking into dorm rooms as a professor to suck face with much younger women or entering

detox clinics, finding God when it was convenient, appearing on the 700 Club, then ditching God. And on it goes from there. Did Dwight Garner, who wrote this review, get any of that wrong, Glenn? I'm wondering if he left anything out. Okay. So it's been a colorful life. What can I say? So the biggest question that Doug and I both had after first reading the review and now the book is what made you do this, right? It's appropriately called late admissions. So what made you, at 75 years old, write a book, you know, with warts and all? It's all out there. It's a gambit.

I mean, one strategy would have been, let me craft my self-presentation to make myself look better, to make myself look attractive. Let me try to win the reader over through artifice. I didn't want to take that route. I have a different strategy. The strategy is, let me tell the truth, the whole truth, the bitter, ugly truth, but also the beautiful truth, the noble and humane truth about my life. Let me lay it bare and rely upon the reader's, I won't call it sympathy, but a perception of the humanity of this person who's talking about his life and a recognition that the guy who's telling you about the life is not the same as the guy being reported on from 30 years ago or whatever it is, who made mistakes, yes,

but who also recovered from those mistakes and who is the better for it now. I decided to take the latter strategy. And have you had any regrets so far? Have any of the women, have anybody mentioned, because we got real names in here, come forth to say, hello, Glenn. Hello. No. No, I don't have any regrets and, uh, no, there hasn't been any blowback, at least not yet. And not all the names are, I mean, the, the name that was known, uh, to the public because it was reported in the press when the mistress with whom I had the bitter breakup, with whom I lounged on a beach in

the Gulf of Eilat, and so on, she's known to the public because those events were reported on. But other names have been changed to protect the innocent. And no, I don't have any regrets. I mean, a dear friend of mine, an old friend, someone I've known for 50 years, said to me, you know, I'm not sure I much like the guy I met in that book. And my answer is, no, I'm not sure I like that guy either. But that guy could never have written this book. I think it's fascinating. I'm actually really glad you told it. And I think it explains so much about you. One of which is your feelings about Barack Obama, who I know you've called a political operator. And just so our audience knows, I think most of

them know you, Glenn, but just in case that they don't, Glenn, I believe was the youngest tenured economics professor at Harvard ever. Now is at Brown university as an economics professor and is a more heterodox thinker when it comes to race issues and a more conservative guy. And has been pushing back against some of these mainstream narratives on racial grievance for the better part of his whole life. And so isn't exactly beloved by the left though. They keep promoting Glenn and they, they, they want to love he's written some books on prison reform that kind of tempt the left into loving Glenn. But then they see he's actually conservative and they abandon you. So anyway, I think it really gives us a window into why you think Barack Obama is basically a

poser, how you got to be a more conservative man despite growing up in academia and being under enormous pressure to be a leftist. So can you fill some of that out for us, like your background and how that side of you emerged? Yeah, well, as far as Obama is concerned, I grew up in Chicago on the South Side. I know those neighborhoods. I know those people. I know the congregation that worshiped at Jeremiah Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ, because that church was located less than a mile from where I went to high school. And I thought the artifice that Obama offered to the country, trying to use the South Side of Chicago as a launching pad and trying to present himself in a certain way, lacked authenticity. I thought what we have here is a carpetbagger who is assuming a mantle that he hasn't earned with life's experience and so on.

And forgive me for thinking that. As far as my own upbringing and so on, a working class kid, Black neighborhoods, south side of Chicago, striving, decency, respectability, but also a little bit of crossing to the other side of the line, housing projects, hustling. I was a product of that world. Early father, I was a father at 18, college dropout who went to a community college and made my way eventually to an elite campus, Northwestern University, where I flourished, decided to pursue a technical career in economic science, trained at MIT, did very well, came out as a conventional theoretical economist and abstract theorist, but eventually gravitated to more political and policy-related work work and so on. I mean, I could go on in that vein,

but those are the basics of my of my starting point anyway. But because of your more conservative leanings and positions and you're not shy about expressing your opinions, you're as open with your opinions as you are with your past. You've taken a lot of incoming and like, for example, you've been called the pathetic black mascot of the right and worse. And so I wonder how you feel looking around today as you see our news is full of more right-thinking black conservatives or conservative adjacent figures who are taking exactly that kind of incoming, whether it's Byron Donalds, who's feeling it almost every day, Congressman from

Florida, or Clarence Thomas, who has probably taken more of that than any other black American alive. Well, OK, you're talking to a black conservative. I greatly admire Justice Thomas. I got my eye on Byron Donalds. I think he's an interesting character. And yes, I do think there are more voices of that sort now than there were 10 or 20 years ago. And I think there's a good reason for it. I think it's because the party line, the liberal party line, Black people can't do anything

in this country until white people get their knee off of our necks. We need reparations. Structural racism is the root cause of all of the disadvantage that Black Americans are experiencing. The police need to be defunded. We need to abolish prisons. Affirmative action is the answer. I think that view of the world is collapsing before our very eyes. I think it's bankrupt. I think its inadequacy is becoming more and more clear. And I think the calls that you hear, Justice Thomas is Uncle Tom, he's a grifter and whatever. Justice Thomas is one of the most significant people to sit on the Supreme Court in the history of this country. He's had an enormous impact on American life. He's

a towering figure. And he moreover is an exemplar of what is possible for African Americans to achieve in this great country. And that is becoming more and more clear with each passing year. Likewise, for other of these voices, Byron Donalds, again, whom I've got my eye on, is one such. I think liberal orthodoxy is collapsing. I think the DEI view of the world is untenable in the long run in this country, and I think the people who adhere to it are desperate. Name calling and character assassination is all they've got. They don't have any arguments. The attacks on Justice Thomas are relevant, I mean, today and every day, but they've popped

up again. And one of, I think, the most racist Americans we have is Elie Mestal, who writes for The Nation. He's on Joy Reid's program almost every night and just says the most racist things about whites and about conservative blacks. I mean, it's just it's crazy the stuff this guy gets away with. But his latest rant was on Joy Reid. He's very, very angry because this leftist group did a deep dive into the number of, quote, gifts that Justice Thomas has accepted while he's been on the high court. And while they do acknowledge that many other justices, including leftist justices, have also received multiple gifts, they said, well, he's received more. His, if you count the private jet travel, seemed to amount to, well, once you've accepted that they can take gifts,

you're done, right? Like it's, if it's 2 million, if it's half a million, it's up to the Supreme Court to determine. And we've had whole Senate judicial confirmation hearings of these folks to figure out whether they're ethical and belong on this court. And we're going to trust them or not. It's up to them to decide. Anyway, here is Ellie Mustel going off on this report with Joy Reed. Take a listen to SOT4. I think it's important for people to ask, what are these people paying for, right? What are they getting for their $4 million they've given to Clarence Thomas over the past 20 years? What they're getting is what Byron Donalds wants. What they're getting is Jim Crow, right? What they're

getting is a guy like Clarence Thomas, who, like Byron Donalds, entire judicial philosophy is that, well, some Negroes are magic, right? No matter what the white man does to us, we can just rise above as long as they don't shoot us or kill us or rape us or drown us, right? And if you tell people that, if you're black, if you're Donald, if you're Thomas, and you tell white people that, they will give you money. And that is what's happened to Clarence Thomas for 20 years. Wow. Your reaction to him? That turns my stomach, but, you know, it's par for the course. I mean, I don't even know where to begin. Clarence Thomas is motivated by money.

That's laughable. Clarence Thomas's judicial philosophy has been many decades in the development. He has a long track record of intellectual contributions to the evolution of American law. You can disagree with Clarence Thomas's jurisprudence, but calling him a name, calling him, in effect, an Uncle Tom, a grifter and a sellout? That's, as I say, desperation. I think this lapsing into the Sambo talk in reference to one ninth of one third of the American government. And as I say, an African American whose accomplishments in his life illustrate the triumph of Black people over Jim Crow and racism and so on. So, you know, I mean, I'm not surprised. And that does resonate in Joy Reid's audience. Oh, by the way, I looked her up. She's getting paid a million and a half dollars a year to spew her bile at MSNBC. And she's got the nerve to call somebody a grifter? You're exactly right, Glenn. By the way, to your point about Thomas,

if Thomas was actually, if he were interested in money, he'd be making $9, $10 million a year at any white shoe law firm in America. Easily. That's right. So, I mean, it's just insulting. I will, before I want to get back to the book, but quick comment on Byron Donalds and the reason they were saying Thomas is just like Byron Donalds is that Byron Donalds was in the news this week making a comment about life for black Americans pre, you know, during Jim Crow. Yes. But he was talking about pre great society,

America and what life was like. Here's what I'm going to play the longer clip of what he said. And we'll talk about how they're bastardizing it and him. Let's play. OK, Sot six. Growing up, the one thing I knew I wanted to do, and this is not about my father. This is about what I wanted to do, is I wanted to be a father to myself. And so one of the things that's actually happening in our culture, which you're now starting to see in our politics is the re-invigoration of black families with younger black men and black women. And that is also helping to breathe the revival of a black middle class in America. You see, during Jim Crow, the back family was together. That's right. During Jim Crow, more black people were not just conservative, because black people

always have been conservative minded, but more black people voted conservatively. And then HEW, Lyndon Johnson, and then you go down that road and now we are where we are. What's happened in America the last 10 years, and I'll say it because it's my contemporaries, it's Wesley's contemporaries. You're starting to see

more Black people being married in homes, raising kids. Glenn, what do you make of it? Because to me, I hear that and I'm like, yeah, that's, I mean, read some

Shelby Steele. Like, yes, this has been, this is not a new thought or observation. It's not. And the attack on him is that he said during Jim Crow, the black family was healthier as if there was something good about Jim Crow. He wasn't extolling the benefits of Jim Crow. He was pointing out the the collapse of the African-American family, which has occurred in the post-Jim Crow era. And I mean, he was just making a statement of fact. I mean, when Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the late senator from New York, who working for the Lyndon Johnson administration in 1965, issued a report on the Black family. He was alarmed at the collapse of the Black family, and he was pointing at 25% of the babies born to a Black woman being born to a woman without a husband. That number is 70% today. 7-0. Moynihan was writing in 1965, at the end of Jim Crow,

things have gotten worse. That's simply a statement of fact. People are putting their head in the sand to the extent that they ignore what is sociologically obvious, which is that it's a devastating indictment of a community and inhibition of that community's ability to reproduce productively itself from generation to generation for the family to have collapsed, the nuclear family, husband, wife, mother, father, raising children. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's time-tested through history. And what has happened to the African American society in that respect is unhealthy and is something to be lamented, in my opinion. And I think, again, that that's a demonstrable statement about how societies reproduce themselves.

The family is key. And he was just pointing out that the collapse of the family is a post-Jim Crow phenomenon amongst African-Americans. And that's true. This is another reason why I love the admissions and late admissions, your book, because you're not speaking about this from some high perch, like I've made better choices than all of you. And now I will lecture to you about how you can be a better person like me. You're

actually laying it bare on how you did not always make the best choices and things didn't work out that great in the personal lane for you at every chapter. Um, I mean, you've been incredibly academically successful and professionally successful, but you you're open about the pain that you've caused in making other decisions. So let's, let me take you back. All right. Let me take you back to the outside of Chicago and a young Glenn, uh, who were, you were arrested after you stole a 61 Chevy that had South Carolina plates. And, um, then, uh, let's see when you were 17, you impregnated a 15 year old girl, Charlene, who would ultimately become your wife and you'd have a second child together. But that's like automatically we're against the rules of like, don't, don't have a child before you have a job, right? Like finish

high school. Um, we've talked about this before we're talking about with McWhorter and others. You're like, there are certain rules. He and McWhorter does a show with Glenn. That's well worth your time too. Anyway, you were breaking all of them. Well, it was a long time ago, but yes, yes, it's true. I was a young five, but on the car theft thing, I'll say this in my defense. I wanted to impress a girl. The car was sitting on a repair lot. You could start it without a key just by turning the little lever at the ignition.

Fooling around, I experimented with it and I got the harebrained idea that I'd just take this car, hide it somewhere, and I'd go around and pick up this girl and I'd impress her and we'd drive off to a quiet place and climb into the backseat and neck and have a little fun. And I wanted to impress this girl. It was a very, very dumb idea. And when the cops pulled me over and asked me for my driver's license, I didn't have one. I was 17 years old without a driver's license. And whatever. And I got taken to jail.

And my father came and bailed me out. And my uncle, who was a distinguished lawyer at the height of his career in Chicago, was able to persuade the court to give me a pass, a slap on the wrist. But that was it wasn't as if I was embedded in a car theft ring or whatever. But enough about that. Imagine imagine if they hadn't given you, you know, like if they if they had thrown the book at you, thank God that didn't happen because your your life was about to take off. I mean, it's extraordinary. I've been to the south side of Chicago. It is extraordinary to see a kid who grew up there wind up, as I said, the youngest economics tenure professor at Harvard ever. Let me correct that. Not the youngest. I was the first African American tenured in the economics department at Harvard. Oh, first African American. Okay.

So that is not a resume you see every day with your kind of background. And so each of these steps along the way was a learning opportunity for you, but also was fraught, was fraught. And I know some of them didn't work out. So let's talk about the ladies, because this is something I did not know about you, professor. You own being a player and not being the best husband of all time. And I wondered, as I read in particular, because your marriage to Charlene did not work out, but you wound up marrying Linda. But while you were married to Linda, you write about the beginnings of your affair with Pamela, Pamela Foster, who you corresponded with when she was a student at Smith and you were spending two semesters on leave from Harvard as a visiting faculty member at a different place. You guys got together after she graduated and then you write as

follows. This is what I'm telling you. This book is like a page turner. It's a little naughty at times. So he writes, so I suggest we continue the conversation up in my room. And she says, yes. When we enter the room, she excuses herself to the bathroom. Finally, she emerges wearing nothing but a bra and a slip with no panties. That night I devoured Pamela Foster. I was voracious. We both were. I was enraptured by her. This is the Zenith. I thought this conquest and consummation would be my crowning achievement. You say in the book, I wrote, you write, I barely tried to keep it quiet. I was constantly making excuses to Linda. I wanted what I wanted, even showing up to professional events with Pamela where colleagues would share distaste. But really what you're saying here is you were

kind of hoping for your marriage to end and were, I guess, reckless about the way you were trying to bring it about. So can you talk about that, about your marriage and then this thing with Pamela? My second wife, Charlene and I divorced shortly after. We separated in graduate school and we divorced shortly after. And Linda Thatcher Lowry, an economist whom I met in graduate school at MIT, and who is the mother of our two sons, Glenn II and Nehemiah, became my second wife. And I betrayed her and serially betrayed her, not only with Pamela Foster. Pamela was one of the most significant because of the events that followed, which we haven't discussed in detail as of yet. But Pamela accused me of assaulting her. Pamela, I was keeping in an apartment in the South end of Boston, my quote unquote mistress. And we had a fight and a falling out and I ejected her from the apartment and she accused me of assault and I was brought into

court and it became a big deal. Eventually the charges were dropped. I denied that I did assault her, but in fact it became news and Linda was humiliated. And that was the culmination of a series of humiliations and betrayals. And those are among the most significant of the confessions that I own up to. this idea about masculinity. I had this idea about my entitlement as a player, as I characterized myself in the book. And these are not things that I'm proud of. And these are things that I eventually outgrew. Linda stuck with me through thick and thin, through cocaine addiction, through marital infidelity. And we came out the other side of it together. And as I said, raised this young family, our sons are now in their 30s. They're wonderful human beings. I'm so proud of them. Linda herself passed away from breast cancer in 2011. But yeah, I was that guy. I'm not proud of that. That's part of what I'm owning up to, part of what I'm trying to come to terms with and see as potentially shameful. But it's so interesting

when someone chooses to expose it all because it helps everyone else feel maybe somewhat better about their own life choices. No one's perfect. And to see how much you've accomplished is what makes this so incredibly brave, right? Because they could all have the perfect shiny image of you, or they can understand you're a complex human being, a complex man with a complex past. It was important to write. I do want to talk about the Pamela thing. You've mentioned what happened. She alleged that you abused her and you denied it and she wound up dropping the charges. But that wound up coming back to haunt you, right? It was the apartment in which you kept Pamela. Because I actually never knew that you were tapped for and almost did go to work for a job in the Reagan administration under my old pal, Bill Bennett, who I used to have on the

Kelly file all the time at Fox News. Great guy. So they were kind of, they had recognized you as this young rising talent, MIT and a young professor, but it being the 1980s, you can't have a fair partner in an apartment, and that's kind of how things unraveled. Yeah, I became friendly with William Crystal, who was an assistant professor at Harvard in the Kennedy School of Government when I first got there and who left after Ronald Reagan was reelected in November of 1984 to join the second Reagan administration and became chief of staff to William Bennett, Bill Bennett, author of the Book of Virtues, and at that time, Secretary of Education. And when Gary Bauer stepped down as Deputy Secretary, Undersecretary of Education, Bill Kristol had the idea that I might be

a good person to replace Gary Bauer as Undersecretary of Education. He brought me to the attention of Bill Bennett, and Bill Bennett concurred, and they were prepared to formally nominate me as the person to be approved by the Senate for that number two position in the Department of Education when I was in the midst of this affair with the secret apartment where the mistress was being kept. And I withdrew from the appointment process after the FBI discovered this apartment and went and interviewed Pamela Foster, who was living there, and interviewed me about it. I didn't want to find out what happens when you don't tell the truth to the FBI during an interview. So I owned up to the fact that my name was on the lease of that apartment. But the fact that what was going

on was going on was very evident to everybody, even though nothing was said about it during the FBI interview. And I decided to withdraw. And I called up Bill Crystal and told him that I was going to pull out. The day after I called Bill, I had this fight with Pamela at the apartment that ended up with me ejecting her from the apartment with her filing charges for assault. And that then became public. The timing was I withdrew from the apartment because of the embarrassment of my affair being discovered, not because of the assault charge, but it hardly matters because once the assault charge became public, my reputation was in the toilet.

Wow. Wow. That must have been such a low, having that publicly exposed and losing this amazing opportunity. And were you, because you got called by Harvard and you were told, hey, we're getting a call about these allegations. So was your job also in jeopardy, that job?

Because now you were thinking you would leave that job and go to the administration. I was going to leave for a year or two, not forever, and come back to Harvard as you do when you go into the government. And Harvard stood by me, the Kennedy School people, after the dust settled on the scandal, and it became clear that I was not going to be a convicted felon of a felony assault against a woman. The charges were withdrawn. Harvard stood by me. Yeah, I got the call from the general counsel's office at Harvard because the Boston police had called them, the general counsel's office, and said one of your faculty members. Charges were dropped subsequently, yes, but I did have to go through that. And it was a terrible humiliation for myself and for my wife. We survived it. Amazingly, amazingly. She, I mean, she must've been a very special person and that's, I want to get to, you know, what we discover later about Linda, but there's something you said in the book reminded me of something that Charlemagne, the God, just told me when he came on recently,

that he actually had a, he too was unfaithful to his wife and they married young early on in the marriage. And he told me that he'd been told specifically in his case, it was by his dad that like only a sucker would be monogamous, would be faithful. And so it was imprinted in his mind from a very young age, like that's a loser's move. You know, if I'm,'s move. If I'm going to use the term in the book, a playa, I can't be faithful to the woman I marry. So is this more common than I realize, do you think, Glenn? Yeah. I'm sorry to have to report, as I tell this story in my own book, my uncle Adler, my mother's brother, who was a notorious womanizer,

he's a graduate of Morehouse College in the 1940s and got a degree in law from Northwestern University and had a brilliant career as a lawyer in Chicago until he got into some trouble. But in any case, my uncle Adler told me early early on I must have been about 15 years old that uh the most important thing in life was to if you allow me to say this make and get as much pussy as you can quote unquote I don't know if you ever saw the movie Little Miss Sunshine uh yeah there's a character Alan Arkin the grandfather in that movie who has similar advice for his grandson. And, you know, that was the ethos of that part of the African-American community from

which I emerged. That was not an uncommon sentiment. I'm not going to paint with too broad a brush. And I know that there are many, many, many upstanding and good people and righteous people coming from the neighborhood that raised me. But this sentiment that only a fool allows to pass without exploitation opportunities for sexual gratification, come on, not everybody plays by the rules. In fact, nobody who's really smart plays by the rules. That was the other side of the line. I have this metaphor in the book by the rules. That was the other side of the line. I have this metaphor in the book about the line, about crossing the line, about living on the right side of the line.

Well, there was another side of the line and a lot of people strayed. And my uncle Adler was one of them. And so was I. I mean, you weren't alone. You mentioned the black community, but who's most infamous for this? Our former president, JFK. And it's well known that his father said to the boys, like, yeah, you know, you get married, marry a nice girl, and then you can have other women on the side. That's the way it's done. So that kind of, this is the approach to life. So you're in some good up doing some soul searching on it. And the way you did it is actually kind of heartbreaking and very sweet, but sad. I'm going to pick it up there. I'm going to do a quick break and then we'll come back and we'll talk about that piece of the amazing Glenn

Lowry's personal story by this book, Late Admissions. So Glenn, Linda died, as you point out, of cancer. And the book goes through the fact that after her death, you cleaned out her office and found two things, a letter that you wrote for your 10th anniversary with her and a self-help book, which was really telling. Can you explain what happened when you saw that self-help book and what was in it and how it made you feel? The self-help book, I don't remember the author or the title, was about forgiveness, how to forgive. It was on her bookshelf in her office at Tufts University, where she was for many years a professor of economics. And my son Glenn and find a framed copy of the letter, not a copy, the letter that I had written by hand to her on the occasion of our 10th wedding anniversary in 1993. That was sitting on her shelf. And not far from it was the self-help book about forgiveness. And so I opened

it and I began to leaf through it. And I noticed that it was heavily annotated where she had spent hours that she had endured. And she had made a study, had made a project out of what she felt to be the necessity to forgive her wayward husband. And I sat there full of shame, tears in my eyes, leafing through this book and realizing what a woman it was that I had had the good fortune of meeting, marrying, and who was the loving mother of our sons. And what a cad I had been. What an idiot. What a fool. What a callow, superficial, selfish, narcissistic idiot I had been to put this woman through what I had put her through. Those things became clear to me, as I said, with that little book in my hand. What a woman is right. I mean, there's something really so lovely about this woman knowing that she was suffering and that

her marriage was not what she wanted, reading a book on how to manage it for herself, how to change herself so that she could deal with it better. Like there's some, it's sad and it's sweet and it's actually ultimately extremely loving. And I bet she'd be, I bet she'd be really proud of you that you actually wound up really reflecting on all of this and on yourself and thinking about what does it mean? And what does it say about the measure of a man? You write, you write about some of it in the conclusion, you write, I love this. You write, I fought the enemy within, but in truth, he was no intruder, no stranger. I cannot disavow his actions any more

than I would deny my own because his actions are my actions. I am that enemy within. The game goes on. Though I have fallen away from religion, I've never shaken the feeling that I am a fallen man. I retain a sense of awe when reflecting on the meaning of this life. What do you think about, Glenn? With all that you've been through and all that you confess to, what do you think about on the meaning of life? I think that one of the greatest challenges that we face as conscious, reflective, spiritual beings

is to somehow get our minds around where we fit within this vast creation, this vast universe in which we inhabit. And I was a born-again Christian, and I fell away from it. And I try to talk about that in the book. And there are superficial reasons, I think, that I fell away, and then there are more subtle reasons. And I don't want to spoil my potential reader's joy at discovering the story that I'm telling in the book by saying much more about that. But I got to a certain point, the intellectual, the MIT PhD, the rationalist, the modern man, where I found it hard to continue to credit the incredible claims that we as Christians make about the divinity of Jesus Christ, about a man born of a woman who nevertheless is the Son of God, crucified, dead, and buried, raised from the dead, and living on to this day. Very powerful claims that I found difficult in my rationality and in my modernism and perhaps in my arrogance and conceit, I found difficult to credit.

And so I had a crisis. Out of that crisis, I have yet fully to emerge, and I continue to struggle with these great questions. But I am quite sure that the quest for an answer to those questions is a noble human quest. I don't take at all lightly the importance that people give to questions of belief. I call myself not an atheist, but an agnostic. I have my doubts, but I am absolutely certain that this is a noble quest, a quest to try to establish a relationship with the creator of the universe. And that's kind

of what I'm gesturing at in those concluding remarks. So you're questioning, which makes me think many people say that the Q in LGBTQ is questioning, not queer. So you are kind of LGBTQ now, Glenn. You're questioning. You're questioning, and that's totally fair. I mean, I think most of us who have faith are also questioning. We might also fall under the Q questioning, not the Q queer. And it is an ongoing journey. Well, Megan, if I can, I just want to tell this story very briefly. One of my friends, the late, great theologian Richard John Newhouse, took me aside.

I went to him with my crisis of faith. I said, you know, it's like when you're on the beach in the summer, you look up at the clouds and you're sure you see the profile of Abraham Lincoln reflected in the clouds. You look away, take a bite of your sandwich. And when you look back again, you can't find it. You can't find it. And I almost feel like that about Jesus. I can't find him. I can't find it, you can't find it. And I almost feel like that about Jesus. I can't find him. I can't find him. And Richard, a Catholic theologian, Father Richard John Newhouse,

close with many powerful people, including Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope in the Vatican, he turned to me and he said, he laughed. And he said, you think you're the only one? He said, you thought it was going to be easy? He says, there is faith inside that doubt of yours, inside the faith that's inside that doubt. And it's a never-ending struggle that we Christians are engaged in. You thought it was going to be easy? It's not going to be easy. It was not meant to be easy. And it's not easy. Well, well said. Um, I've got to ask you about Ibram Kendi because when you came on in 2020, we hadn't even, we didn't even have video back then. It was still just an audio podcast. You're one of our earliest guests. We talked about the rise of Kendi and D'Angelo and all these, you know, race baiters on, on the left. And he was beloved at the time. I mean, his how to be an anti-racist was flying off the shelves

and he's been celebrated in academia. And extraordinarily, the New York Times just did a deep dive piece on him. I don't know, I assume you saw it. Yeah, I saw it. Didn't reflect particularly well on him and really talked about how people working under him don't respect him, don't believe in the mission, think he's full of hubris and maybe an empty suit.

He's had ongoing problems and questions about the funding for his projects. So where are we now as we talk in the beginnings of summer 2024 on Kendi versus where we were in 2020? Well, I think it's poetic justice that he has experienced a breathtaking fall from grace. It's true that his ideas had their season, but they weren't especially compelling ideas. In fact, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. They were superficial and silly ideas. And they were trendy, and they caught the imagination of a certain segment of the American elite for a season. But there was not, and there is not any real there, there. And that became clear soon

enough, the interminable piece in the New York Times Magazine. I mean, I don't know, it looks like it's 10,000 words or something. It goes on forever. I think as an effort, not just to rehabilitate Kendi. He doesn't come off looking all that good, notwithstanding the best efforts of the author to present him in as most sympathetic light possible, I think. But also is a kind of no real resonance in these books. There's no profound analysis. There's no learning. You know, again, I'll stop. I'll stop because I don't want to seem to just be picking on somebody. But that's what I think. I think you could say he got in over his head. Fifty five million fell on him in a very short period of time.

And he didn't have the chops, either intellectual or managerial, to make the best use of it. He became a target, and it's true, he did become a target of a lot of criticisms, including from people like me. But I stand by the claim that there's no there there. There was never any depth, any resonance, anything that was profound, that was lasting. There was no meat. Where's the beef? There was no beef. And that's, I think, evident now. Lastly, you write about how you admired Donald Trump. You enjoyed watching his run for president, but that you were not happy with J6. Now you have a binary choice, basically. I mean, I guess you could go for RFK or Jill Stein. Something tells me our economics friend is not going to go for Jill Stein or Cornel West. But how are you thinking about presidential politics right now? So I'm not saying who I'm voting for. I'm saying who I'm not voting for. I am not voting for Joseph Robinette Biden. I can't bring myself to do that for a lot of reasons. And the most

reason of which is that speech he gave at Morehouse College, which I found to be insulting to African-Americans. We could go into the details. But in any case, I'm going to find somebody to vote for and it's not going to be Joseph Robinette Biden. Could it be Donald Trump? Well, if I announced that, that would be making news on your show, Megan, and I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared. What's wrong with that? My stock answer is if I were going to vote for Trump, I wouldn't tell anybody that I was going to do it because it's such an outrageous thing for an Ivy League professor to admit to wanting to do. But I understand why Trump is ahead in the polls. And, you know,

I'm keeping my powder dry for the time being. I'll let you know when I'm prepared to come out of the closet. You are welcome back anytime for that late admission or any other. The one and only Glenn Lowry, ear of God's end. Thank you so much. Make sure you support Glenn. Buy the book. It's called Late Admissions, Confessions of a Black Conservative. What a treasure he is. When we come back, London Roberts, the mother of Hunter Biden's child that the White House for years refused to acknowledge. We've been following the trial of Hunter Biden on charges he illegally purchased and possessed a gun while he was abusing drugs back in 2018. Well, that same year, just weeks before he bought that gun, a young woman from Arkansas gave birth to his child, a little girl. For years, Hunter Biden denied that he was the father of Navy Joan Roberts until a DNA test proved otherwise.

After that, Hunter Biden finally started to support the child financially, only to come back and ask to pay much less than he had originally promised. Through it all, President Joe Biden, who prides himself on telling us about what a close-knit family he has, refused to acknowledge this little girl at all. After Joe Biden was elected president at Christmastime in 2021 and 2022, the Bidens decorated a White House fireplace with stockings stitched with the names of six grandchildren, no stockinging for their seventh little Navy. In fact, as recently as April 2023, President Biden suggested on camera that he only had six,

not seven grandchildren. But last year, little Navy's mother, London Roberts and Hunter reached a new agreement. And President Biden finally acknowledged Navy in a statement put out late on a Friday on a summer evening. London Roberts is out later this summer with a tell-all book. It is called Out of the Shadows, My Life Inside the Wild World of Hunter Biden, and it's available for pre-order now. And it is riveting. London joins me now. London, thank you so much for being here. Hi, Ms. Kelly. Thank you for having me. Oh, you bet. Yeah, you call me Megan. So let's go back. The first meeting you had with Hunter

Biden is so telling and so interesting. You were at, I mean, explain it to me. Cause I, I read like you're talking about the Swedish embassy, but he had offices in there and you were there for a party. What's what's, what was happening at the Swedish embassy and talk about how the first word you heard out of his mouth and how you crossed the door and what you saw. You know, um, a lot was happening at the Swedish embassy, but, him, like coming across the door and meeting him. And he was in a dark place and he was in a dark room at that time, you know, doing things that he's been very candid about about doing back in those days. And you wouldn't think that somebody who was doing those things would would act act the way that he did, but he was, he jumped up. He was very genuine and very charming, um, very intelligent. You know, um,

he was able to have a conversation and, and make you laugh and, um, real easy to get along with. Um, not, not what you would think. And I, you re you write in the book, it's pretty extraordinary that, um, you hear on the other side of the doorway, the F word. So you go in, you push the door open, wondering what's happening there. And you see a man sitting in an office chair, leaning over a small desk, meticulously organizing a series of small glass tubes and copper strands. He looks determined. He isn't wearing after-party clothes like everyone else. Instead, he's sitting there in brightly colored boxer briefs with parrots all over them.

I'm intrigued. He turns in his chair and catches me in his stare, his gaze intense with furrowed brows and the most beautiful blue-gray eyes I've ever seen. What an amazing thing, London, to think that man who you met in that moment would become the father of Little Navy, your only child, at least soon at that point. So when you look back at that moment, what made you stay and continue talking to this man when you met him in his boxers with drug paraphernalia everywhere? Well, I mean, it's like I said, I was intrigued. This guy, he he you could tell like and I speak throughout the book about this empathy that I have, you know, for people and people who are suffering. And Hunter was battling a demon at that time with addiction. And but he he wasn't just, you know, your, your average Joe, like he was, he was so smart and, and so intelligent and easy to talk to. And he,

he has a way of making you feel like you matter and, you know, and he cares and it could be just in a few minutes, you know, it could be, you just met this person and he comes across as so genuine and so sincere. And you wouldn't believe that, you know, he was doing the things that he was doing and he was battling that addiction because he he was there was so much good and so much great potential that came with him. He was older than you by some 20 years. I think he has a daughter from when he was younger, who's only a couple of years younger than you by some 20 years. I think he has a daughter from when he was younger, who's only a couple of years younger than you, right? Is she younger than you or older than you? But you're within a couple of years.

I don't know her exact age. I'm older by some years, I think. Okay, yeah. So, I mean, it's pretty tight. So two and a half years. Something like that. Very young. I don't know. It's something. Anyway So two and a half years. Something like that. I don't know. It's something.

Anyway, my team is trying to give me information. Anyway, so you throw caution to the wind. I think it could be fair to say. And you wound up. It was not a one night stand. Is that correct? I think that's one of the misconceptions about this relationship that he has helped feed. True.

And you'll learn in the book, like, you know, it was an on and off again thing and it lasted, you know, over a year. And so when you were with him, cause it's actually kind of interesting. You were with him at the same period of time that he's now being cross-examined over, not he personally, cause he hasn't taken the stand, but that is is at issue in his criminal case. And you're very open to the book about how you did observe. I think it's fair to say rampant drug use by him and talk openly about just how bad it got. Can you give us an idea of what you saw? There's actually a chapter in the book that I reflected on a night that it got pretty dark and it got pretty bad.

And I worried for Hunter's life. And I speak about that. I'm very candid about it in the book. And, you know, even, you know, his addiction was so bad. I think I even say in the book that, you know, I wonder if Hunter remembers that night. I wonder if he even knows, you know, what what exactly he went through. Mm hmm. What what was the drug? I mean, I know there's been a couple different ones with him. The the drug that he was using was crack cocaine. You write in the book, first of all, you talk about how, you know, you saw him even on the Amtrak going to the urinal every 15 minutes, which is

a sign. I mean, I know that just from my time living in New York that especially guys, but it could be girls too, who are going to the bathroom every 15 minutes. They're not going there to use the facilities in the way the rest of us do. But you write about watching him suffering after, you know, taking a lot of drugs and saying, it's bitterly painful knowing that someone I care so much about, someone with so much potential and generosity and brilliance is struggling with this demon of addiction. I cry wondering if he's even struggling at all anymore, or if he's just given up and let the demon take everything. The endless night finally gives way to dawn. Hunter stirs, and it looks like the demon has lost this round. But then he opens his mouth. Get me my backpack. I need my Coke. No good morning. No what happened last night. The first words from his mouth show the demon didn't lose. He actually

won. He took Hunter to the brink of death and then let him return to us just to torture him all over again. I mean, this sounds like it was just about as bad as it could get. And you had to be thinking at the time, like, what do I do? Right? Like you don't, what were you thinking about how you fit into this picture? Right. And I think that so many people, I believe Hunter or someone has said before that, you know, everyone knows somebody that has suffered from addiction. And I believe that everybody in some way has been affected by it. And this is kind of one of those moments where you can resonate with people who, who have cared about someone who was battling an addiction. And, you know, there's, there's people out there today that battle with people who are battling with addiction and, and they suffer that silent cry so much because it's, it's, you feel helpless. There's, there's nothing, you know,

that, that you can do in that moment. And it's like, Hunter has been very candid about his addiction. And during the time of it, he was very candid and would own it. That was his addiction. It was no one else's. And no one was to blame for it. And that was something that he took full responsibility for. And so there was, there was nothing you can do. And it's, it's, um, it hurts. It's sad. It's gotta be scary. Um, and I, there's an extraordinary passage in the book where you talk about how he warned you what was coming your way. You know, he warned you. It's a pretty extraordinary thing. You, you write about how, uh, you're in the shower and you write, I'm trying

to keep shampoo suds from my eyes when there's a little pause. And I hear him say, you know, honey, you've got a real problem. What I managed to ask with that vague feeling, he's about to say something he'd rather not, but he knows he has to anyway. You're in love with me. Love? I hadn't even considered it, you think to yourself, but now here in the shower, he's claiming I'm in love with him. There's barely a pause before he finishes. I'm going to hurt you. I hurt everyone who loves me. Wow. Now, many women would have run out the door at this point, London. So why didn't you? I think in that moment, he was right. And I had, you know, I talk about throughout the book, this, this, this, I wasn't, I wasn't really resonating with my feelings and my emotions. Um, like most people do. I was, I was, um, I wasn't attached to them. And, and so it's like,

I would, I would just, you know, go with the flow with things. And that was always my norm. And then, you know, you're hit with, you know, you're in love with me and it's like, you know, um, I'm watching you battle addiction and I'm, I'm watching, you know, I'm caring about you and, and things like that. And, um, I stuck around for that because, uh, I think he was right. When, when you do love somebody and you care about somebody, no matter what they go through, you know, you, you stick with them through it. And, um, I think that's what I was doing. You wound up working for him. You met, we talked about how you met, but then you wound up working as a, as an assistant in his Rosemont

Seneca company. Is that right? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. So you, you grew up in Arkansas. I should spend a minute on your background, but you knew him. I mean, you knew him a little bit. Again, it wasn't a one night stand. And even the relationship prior to all this, it wasn't all sex. There was also a business piece to it. So you grew up in Arkansas. You have a good mom and dad, but help us understand how you got to the point of accepting this kind of a relationship, right? Like, were you insecure? Had you had negative experiences with men prior to this? No, it's, um, honestly, I didn't, I've, I've tried to explain it so many ways and I don't think there is any explanation because the things like now, um, I talk about, you know,

relationships after and prior to, like, there are things in those relationships that I would have not tolerated, but like with Hunter, um, I, I went with the flow. I accepted him for who he was and what came with him. And then something massive happened, which was you became pregnant. And this, one of the wacky stories in the book, there's a fair amount in there that's like, whoa, wait, what? Tell us what happened with your cell phones the night you found out you were pregnant. I had two cell phones, which is also, I still do to this day, but I had two cell phones, which is also I still do to this day. But I had two cell phones at the time because my Arkansas phone had a cellular data that didn't pick up at the place that I was living in D.C. So I got a different I got Sprint and AT&T to even out the data and everyone could reach me. But that night, they both at the same time crashed and in front of me and my

friends. And what did the screens look like when they were crashing? Um, you know how they'll go like black with those like lines or stuff across them, the like green and purplish looking lines. It looks like a total meltdown. Correct. Like a total meltdown. So the next day you go and get a new phone, right? And you are able to like link it up with your cloud. And what do you discover? Yes.

A lot of stuff is gone from my iCloud, had it not been backed up or whatever. But just about everything with Hunter was gone. So what do you think happened there? That is still up in the air. That's something that I can't explain. I don't know exactly what happened. Do you think, given that he was, at that point, the son of the former vice president, there were government forces trying to protect him potentially here?

You know, you always wonder that because especially like hearing all these conspiracies about about things and how they happen and especially with politics. So you always wonder that. And that's always been in the back of my mind was, you know, somebody trying to protect him and how far would they go to do that? It had to be very disconcerting. So now this happens with your phones. That's weird. And you find out you're pregnant with the former vice president's grandchild. That's really kind of that. That's a realization that's got to hit you at some point. Right. And you've got to tell Hunter. So my understanding from the book is when you told him initially he was stunned, but he said the right things like,

OK, it's up to you what to do and I'll stand by you in all ways. But the truth is he didn't, he changed his tune and pretty much did a 180 on you pretty soon thereafter. Right. Right. And I think that's how did you figure out he was not going to be standing by you? Um, well, you know, he was at one point, you know, supposed to go, I talk about in the book, he was supposed to go to like an ultrasound with me and didn't show up. But you know, it's still at the same time, we still met up after, you know, he knew that I was pregnant, and we had had that discussion. And, and we talked about things. And I knew like he started to just ghost it and avoid it. And so I knew the right thing to do was to come home and be surrounded by my family and get through that time. He started, according to the book, making not so subtle hints about

how tough things were for him financially. So what are you trying to do there? Um, I was hurt at that time because I felt like he thought that I was after his money or after him, like I did this on purpose or something like that. And, um, I became defensive. I was, uh, that, that upset me. And, um, I think was the first time I kind of got angry with him. And he, I mean, at that point, were you thinking, oh boy, you know, he's not gonna, not gonna support this child. Right. Right. I was thinking he was looking for, um, you know, a way out of it. Did you ever have to ask, consider not, not having Navy, like not going through with the pregnancy?

Did I consider it? Yeah. That was something that, um, I just, I couldn't do. I, you know, I think whatever woman wants to do with her body and things, I stay out of it. That's their business, but I couldn't do it. And that was really hard for me, really hard because I felt like, is it the easiest way out? You know, is that, is that, will that make all the problems go away? But I can't imagine a world without my daughter in it. I can't. And, and even the mere thought of her not being here, just like it, it's devastating. I can't, I can't think of a world without her. It is amazing when you see women who could have made the opposite choice. I mean, technically most women can make the opposite choice, but didn't, but chose to have the child. And then you see these amazingly beautiful, sweet little beings running around in Navy's case with the beautiful blonde hair and the lovely little wave. And you think, my God, what are we doing? Like, my God, how is it a choice to end this child's life just as it was

beginning? And good for you for not doing that. Right. And I hope that, you know, with telling my story that women who find themselves in that predicament can use this story to, you know, do, do this, do exactly what I've done. And, and it, it changed their life just like it has mine. So you go through with the pregnancy and then the next thing we know, Hunter is publicly denying that she's his child after she's born. And he is dismissing you as he's not even sure if you guys ever had sex. He never actually, he says to a representative that that never happened. So you're being painted in the media. I remember this as some nutcase, you know, some, some girl from Arkansas, who the hell knows who she is, who is just making up this pregnancy and his father, his fatherhood of Navy. So what was that like for you? Um, it was, it was a pretty

dark time because, um, I can't, I can't speak for, you know, him and, and his decisions and, and why he's done things that he's done. You know, that's, that's his story and, and his decisions are for him to tell. I can't, I can't speak on that, but I can say that, um, I wasn't expecting it, I guess. I always thought that he would step up and do the right thing because I, I thought of him as that type of person that would, I always saw the good in Hunter. I always thought that he would step up and do the right thing. I was kind of blindsided, I felt like,

when it was dismissed. He claimed that he didn't even have any recollection of me and stuff. I wanted to think, is that real? Did he really not remember me? Was his addiction worse? Well, I don't, I would say worse than I thought, but I mean, was that a symptom of his addiction during that time? But at the same time, like I know my story and I know, I know my truth. I know what I went through and, and that is something that I can, I can speak on and I can say, you know, how, how it made me feel to hear those things. Here's an excerpt from his book speaking about you and potentially others in Soundbite 20. And the other woman I'd been with during Rampage since my divorce were hardly the dating type.

We would satisfy our immediate needs and little else. I'm not proud of it. It's why I would later challenge in court the woman from Arkansas who had a baby in 2018 and claimed the child was mine. I had no recollection of our encounter. That's how little connection I had with anyone. I was a mess, but a mess I've taken responsibility for. What do you make of that, London, that some woman in Arkansas and claimed the child was mine, hardly the dating type? I mean, how would that make any woman feel, especially, you know, when that that's the father of their child saying that it's it's it's hurtful. It's hurtful to hear those things. And, you know, in the book, I describe how I feel when all of this stuff, you know, comes to light from the New Yorker to his memoir and things like that. There are some chapters where I think you feel my rage. And I think there are some chapters where you feel my hurt.

And you go through plenty plenty emotions during that time. I'm sure. Again, for the listening audience speaking today with London Roberts, who's the author of Out of the Shadows, My Life Inside the Wild World of Hunter Biden. You can pre-order it right now. It's pretty extraordinary, the callousness with which you and honestly your daughter were treated for the first four out of her five years on this earth. The chapter of what in particular, I have to say, Jill Biden did to Navy is really infuriating.

It paints the first lady in a whole new light. Can you tell us about the Christmas stockings? Yes, that actually is something when I was able to talk to Hunter for the first time since I'd been pregnant, that was something that I brought to him like that. That's hurtful to see, um, you know, a matriarch of a family who, who is supposed to bring a family together, um, purposely exclude someone, uh, part of that family, part of that, part of that bloodline. And that's something that someday my daughter will read and my daughter will see. And it, it breaks my heart to know that it will break hers to read and see the things that she's going to see about, um, being excluded. And she's going to wonder, you know, why? And, and I,

all I can do is, uh, you know, be there for her when, when she does, when she is old enough to understand these things. How are you going to explain that? That's tough because it's one of those where I have to tell her, you know, I can't explain, I can't tell you why. I can't, I can't explain other people's behavior for you. All I can say is, you say is that I'm sorry. And I feel to blame because I'm the reason she's in this predicament. This is my child that I had with him. I got myself into that situation. And I feel like I'm to blame for it. And I have a lot of mom guilt when it comes to that as well. So that's something that I hope that with Hunter and Navy's relationship growing, that maybe he can he can turn things around and try to explain to her those behaviors and why. and hung the White House stockings for the six grandchildren, not the seven, excluding Navy, that she also had stockings up there for the family pets, for the dogs? I actually did hear that. Oh my gosh. That is infuriating. So at the same time, at around the same time, so Hunter,

we kind of skipped over this, he denies paternity. When Navy is born, he does not step up and support you spiritually and financially and as a man and as a father, as he had promised when you first told him. He denies being the father altogether. And you actually had to file a lawsuit to make him own up to the fact that he had fathered your child and he did not make it easy on you to even serve him with the papers or get the necessary DNA sample. Like you really, and you don't, you're not a rich woman. So this, can you talk a little bit about what that process was like for you? Um, it was, it was tough because you, you know, that this is all fixing to be made public and the world's going to know about it. And so, you know, that one thing is tough, but also

going after somebody to take accountability for a child. Uh, it's hard because you always wonder if you're doing the right thing or you're going about everything the right way. You want to do what's best in that predicament and you always question yourself. And I was, I felt like there were times, I think I speak on in the book where I was even calling a couple of mine and Hunter's mutual friends. And I'm like, did I dream all this up? Like this did happen, right? And they're like, yes. But I was avoided so much that I thought, am I crazy? Have I lost my mind? And I had those friends there with me who witnessed everything. They're like, no, get it together. You're doing the right thing.

How long did it take in Navy's life for you to finally prove paternity and come to an agreement with him, the initial agreement for support? Um, I believe she was, was she was going on two years old, maybe? Well, I can't remember if she had her first birthday or second birthday, but it was February of, I think it was February of 19. So that would have been, she was 10 months old. She was before her first birthday. And he had never seen her? No.

Hmm. So you finally proved paternity. And did he apologize? No, I, um, at that point in time, I had not, you know, we weren't, we weren't talking. We had no communication that was, um, just our attorneys talking back and forth. So that's the only thing that I would hear, um, was from my attorney of what, you know, his attorney had said or whatever. I, there was no communication with me and him. And when did you finally get to talk to him?

It wasn't until, um, years later and, uh, uh, child support dispute. When he wanted to lower it. Yes, ma'am. Okay. And you finally got to sit down with him. So he, he was ordered by the court to pay, um, I think it was $20,000 a month, right? Yes, ma'am. Okay. To support his child. And he was making millions. We know this from, you know, all the public records around the Burisma and all the rest of it. He was making millions and he has, uh, forgive me, three other children. He has two older daughters and a son before Navy. And now he's since had an, no, no. Is it, walk me through the number of children Hunter has. He has, he has three daughters, um, before Navy and then he has a younger son.

Yeah. Okay. And that was the other piece. So his younger son, who he named Bo after his brother was born as you were going through the paternity suit, as you were trying to get him to acknowledge your child, you're seeing him and his new wife, who he's still with in the papers and their, their child who gets celebrated as a new Biden. And you can't get him to acknowledge your Biden. I mean, that must have been particularly galling. It was. I think it came out towards the end of the paternity that she was she was pregnant. And I think he was born shortly after. But yes, during that time, all of it was difficult. And eventually the media finds out about the story and your phone blew up, right?

This is in connection with filing the paternity lawsuit, I imagine. Was that the day? Yes, the paternity lawsuit. Okay. So everybody wants to talk to you and you decided not to do that really in the beginning. Is that right?

Correct. I felt like I had too much going on. And of course, you know, dealing with all these different emotions and it seemed like after one thing happened, something else would pop up and happen. And now I'm having to process this and process that. So I knew that with time, I would be able to tell my story. And at would, at that time I just wasn't ready. You could do it on your own terms. So Hunter was paying the child support for a while. And then you reference it. He wanted to get back together and he wanted to lower the child support from $20,000 a month to $5,000 a month. And as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, London, this is the meeting where you showed up with a box of items that Navy had made for him and pictures of her and really just pleaded with him to do the right thing. Can you describe the

box and what that meeting was like? Yes. I feel like the box was some form of a peace offering. And it was for his deposition that he was going to go in and answer questions that my attorney had to ask. And I wasn't expected to be there, but it was also right before Father's Day weekend. And my child, as you'll read throughout the book, she questioned, other kids had a father, where's mine? And so I tell her, I'm open with her about who her father is. And that's something that will never change. So instead of not having anything to

celebrate for a Father's Day or not having anything to do, I offer her the chance to make her father something that she can give him, and then I'll make sure that he gets. And I felt like that was a peace offering to show, you know, like this little girl is your daughter and she loves you. And, you know, you don't know that she loves you because you don't have that relationship with her. But she loves you from afar. And I instill all the good things about you into her to let her know that she's loved. And so I took this box with pictures of her and a couple of things that she had made, one being a bracelet. And she made like blue beads and a purple bead because she said purple was her favorite color.

And she said, I'm going to assume his favorite color is blue because he's a boy. And she was right. But and she also, you know, drew him a picture and things like that. I took and I took that to him. And that was when my attorney said off the record, you know, my client has something that she would like to give you. I can I can remember the shakes, the shaking in my voice because Hunter and I hadn't talked in years and I wasn't there to talk to him for me or for anyone else. I was there for my daughter. And that day, I feel like my daughter won because she got her father and, and no, that's worth any amount of money and any amount of child support. Um, my daughter building a relationship with her father. So he lowered, you guys agreed to lower the child support from 20 a month to five a month. And at the same time, he, he got a $15,000 a month house in Malibu for himself.

I'm sorry. Like, I think I'm less forgiving than you are London, but that's bullshit. That's, he took that money from your child who already doesn't have a dad here and he's using it on himself, taking in the Malibu sea scenes. I'm, am I the only one between the two of us who's angry about this? Yeah, I think so. I've, um, I've spent a lot of time being angry at him, but my love for my daughter outweighs that. And, um, seeing her like the first zoom call and sitting down and seeing her face, you agreed that you were going to lower the child support. She was also going to get a certain art of his to sell and that he would agree to doing Zoom calls with his child who he had never met before. Sorry, go ahead.

Yes. And so, you know, seeing her face light up and seeing, you know, finally getting this this relationship that she's yearned for for so long. I don't care what he does with his money. I want him to be a dad. I want him to, if he can make her face look like that, then, um, continue being a father to her, be a good, be a good role model, love her, show her love, do, you know, do fatherly things. And, and that's what mattered to me. Wow. Wow. Has he ever met her face to face in person? No, he is not. Um, you know, Hunter has a lot on his plate right now. And I know that's also me giving him grace and, um, I'll continue to do so until the day I die.

Has the president ever met his grandchild, Navy? No. Have you had any communications whatsoever from Navy's grandma, Jill Biden, or grandpa, Joe Biden? No, we have not had any communication. I've been advised by my attorney. No birthday card. No, I've been advised by my attorneys that, you know, grandparents normally don't step into a child's life until that father does. And then they feel comfortable enough to do so. So,

I mean, it's all new and we'll see what the future holds. Wow. I mean, it's been a year since he's been doing the Zoom calls. It's about time, I think. I mean, Joe Biden tells us every day about how family is the only thing. It's the most important thing in life. That's all he really cares about. Why not Navy? I understand.

I wonder those same things. And I question that as well. But I can't speak for him. I don't know. There's an amazing chapter in this book where you write about taking Navy, by this point Joe Biden's become president, to Washington, D.C. And you see the White House. I'm going to pause there.

That's what we call a tease. I'm going to squeeze in a break and that's what we'll pick it up on the backside of this break. So happy to have you with us today, London Roberts, telling your story. Remember the book is called Out of the Shadows by London Roberts. It's out in August, but available for presale right now. We'll be right back. I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today. You can catch The Megan Kelly Show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel

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Get your first three months for free. Go to SiriusXM.com slash MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow and get three months free. Offer details apply. You write that Hunter's initial reaction after the DNA test proved he was the father, that it was, quote, just proven he's the father. And the first thing he comes back with is, I'm broke. How about, I'm sorry. How about taking accountability for your child?

I don't care if you're broke and your child won't care either. All she wants is a father. And then you reveal that he proposed initially that you single parent adopt Navy. You write in the book, uh, adopter. Are you fucking kidding me? So then he has no obligations and avoids responsibility. Yes. Said your lawyer. They even asked if you would sign an NDA to not discuss the results. Oh, hell no, you're right. They can shove that NDA up their ass and their fucking offer.

I can relate to this version of you, London. And you say this is a new hurt, a new hurt. It's a mother's hurt for her daughter. They said he would be willing to offer $250,000 to the deal. I mean, he pulled your health insurance on you at one point, and so you didn't have medical coverage. He lowered the child support on you. He did not acknowledge his parental responsibilities. He wanted you to be a single parent to put it in writing. And ultimately you found out he was concerned that you might start using the Biden name for

Navy, which is standard in America that a child takes her father's name. And is it true that you had to agree to not use Biden as Navy's last name? Yes. Him and I discussed that over the child support dispute when we finally met face-to-face and sat down and talked. And, you know, we both came to an agreeance that that was probably the best thing for now. And when Navy's old enough, she gets to choose what she wants. So you take her at some point to Washington

and to see the white house where her grandfather is the sitting president of the United States. And it's an extraordinary chapter 19. You write holding my breath. I approached the gates fearing Navy will ask what purpose this building serves or worse that she would realize who might You write, historic home. The emerald green grass and bright blue sky frame the big white building as Navy presses her face close to peer through the bars. This would have to be the first time in U.S. history a granddaughter of the first family is not allowed inside those gates. The sight is etched into my brain forever. And that goes on to this day because not only is Navy not welcome at the White House, London, but she actually has to watch as the Bidens continue celebrating their other grandchildren, have events on TV showing the other grandchildren, and knowing that these are her half-siblings in some of the cases and her cousins, whom so far she has never met and who

have never acknowledged her. So how do you explain all that? Um, it's a lot. I mean, I've, I've said that, you know, there's, there's a lot of hurt in this book and there's a lot of, of anger and, and rage, but you know, there's, there's redemption in the end right now, I hope. But, um, that like you were stating that the, the DC chapter taking her to DC, you know, it wasn't the national mall is my favorite area in DC. I love that walk and stuff. And that's why I took her to the white house first was to get that one over with and out of the way that that one is, is still, it's hard.

It's hard to, um, it's hard to talk about, you know, you, you sitting there, you know, reading that part about Navy outside the gates. And I feel my lip quivering because there's, there's so much emotion that it comes with it. Um, and as a mother, you know, and my love for my child, you know, it's she might not fully understand yet, but someday she will. And it breaks my heart. What do you say to people who say you shouldn't have brought her there? Don't take her there. I try to be as open with my daughter as possible. And the National Mall, like I said, is my favorite part of D.C. And she loves D.C.

You know, D.C. holds a big part of my heart. And I have a bunch of friends there who have become family. And, you know, taking her there was something that I was so happy to do and so excited to do because I love that place. And I would love for her to share that love. And I can get why people don't understand. And it's kind of like that saying, you know, you'll never understand a person's journey unless you've walked a mile in their shoes. And it's just the predicament I'm in and the way that, you know, I've tried to handle things. I can't say that I've handled everything the right way, but I've done the best that I can. It's so tricky because I can totally understand

why you want your child to know that her grandfather is the president. You know, I, of course you want her to know that and to kind of appreciate it. And it's kind of a cool thing that is her lineage, but yet there's so much downside with having to explain. I mean, you're, you are in a very tricky spot. I fully get that. One other thing on the first lady, because I did think this was one of the cruelest cuts of all. You write in the book, chapter 15, in June, 2020, Jill Biden published Joey, a children's book about life, the life of Joe Biden, hanging on to a copy for Navy. I pull it out one night after bath time, and she loves it when I read to her. And this is a book about her grandfather.

And what did you see when you opened up Joey, the book with Navy? The dedication page where, you know, Jill wrote this book about Joe and she dedicated it. So, you know, her grandchildren as she should. And then she, she listed them by name, excluding one. You ask in the book, someday my daughter will be able to read this book. How will she feel knowing all the president's grandchildren were intentionally listed, but Jill left her out purposefully? I always thought that a quality of a first lady is to handle herself with class. But this is distasteful and borderline cruel. You go on to say, she snubbed a small, innocent child and a family member. I can't conceive the number of prayers I will need to ever forgive this woman for publicly snubbing

a child she should be embracing. Have you forgiven her? That's tough. That, you know, I have to. I have to forgive for myself. I can't let, you know, anger and rage just overcome me. I can't be that person. I have to forgive. Have you signed a non-disparagement with Hunter? No.

So you're allowed to say what you want about him? Yes. Okay. Yeah, because I would imagine, I don't know, has he objected to the book? Like, does he know about the book? Yes. Yes, he knows. He knows about the book.

He's taking that time to process it. So what now? We have a presidential election in about five months. I know you write in the book about how you did vote for Joe Biden. You brought Navy with you. Do you do you vote for him again? Well, it's kind of like Mr. Piers Morgan told me the other day. How can I vote for Trump and look my child's father in the face ever again? That there's a certain kind of hate, I think, between them that I don't think that they're willing to let go at any time. So you couldn't pull the lever for Trump, you're saying? I don't believe so. But like you said, it's a tricky position I'm put in.

Very. I mean, let's face it, Joe Biden has not been good to you. He hasn't. He hasn't been good to Navy. And you're her protector. So it's like, but on the other hand, it's kind of cool to have her, her grandfather be the sitting president. So I, I don't know. And you always hope that things will turn around. Yeah. What if, what if they did hang a seventh stocking? That would be a, that would be a small way to mend the fence. But what they did instead, once Hunter was proven the father, was they did no stockings at all. You notice that? Yes. They'd rather not acknowledge the six that they acknowledge than add Navy to the mantle, which tells you what about them?

It says a lot. I want to think that wasn't their intentions and maybe that's like a PR thing and, and they have to, you know, that's something they have to do at that time. And I want to have hope. That's it. How is Navy? Oh, she's great. She's great. She's a, was it kindergarten now? Almost? Yes. She'll be going into kindergarten. She thinks she rules the school. From what I read in this book, she's got some great grandparents on your side. I love your dad's messaging about this whole thing when he said, it's fine. They're going to cut the money. I'm going to help support this little girl and do what I need to do. But what's the most important is have her father's

love in her life. So it sounds like you come from good stock and those are her primary influences and not for nothing London, but those Biden children have not turned out so well. So maybe it's a blessing that the primary influences in her life are on your side. Thanks for writing the book and thanks for coming on. Well, thank you for having me. All the best. Okay. Again, the book is called Out of the Shadows and it's available for pre-order right now.

Thanks to all of you for joining me today. Next week, we have a whole week of true crime shows for you. It's called Fraud Week and I think you're really going to love it. We'll see you then. Email me your thoughts. Megan at at megankelly.com. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.