The Megyn Kelly Show - Jodi Arias Trial That Captivated America: A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special | Ep. 571

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

"Hot Crime Summer" week on The Megyn Kelly Show continues with a deep dive on the Jodi Arias trial and her murder of her ex-boyfriend. Megyn Kelly is joined by defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh to discuss the details of the case and the trial, what made America so riveted by her murder trial, the R-rated nature of the trial, Arias' background, all the clear tells in Jodi Arias' interview with Inside Edition that show she's lying, why the prosecutor did such a terrible job during cross-examination of Jodi Arias, the keys to a successful cross-examination when the defendant is on the stand, her confession on the stand, what might have made Arias snap, the horrific brutality of the crime, her sentencing manipulation, why the prosecutor and defense attorney were disbarred, what Arias' life is like in prison, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. All this week we are bringing you our hot crime summer shows. Today, a deep dive into the Jodi Arias case. This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias case. This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias. We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly's Court contributor Mark Eiglarsch. We'll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis's murder, what Jody's life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way that

only Mark can. I'm going to kick it off with a little walk down memory lane because you used to come on Kelly's court back then as now, this one doesn't involve you. This Kelly's court doesn't involve you, but it's a scene setter. Now we're 10 years post verdict right now. Here's a little flashback to, I was on the air. We got the guilty verdict and covered it with the court then, which was Mercedes Colwin that day and Johnis Bilbo. Look at this sweet delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace. Now, listen, I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered that they're able to find peace, some sense of peace. That's great. And the Oscar goes to because this is a woman who stabbed him 27 times in the heart as well,

then shot him. And look at the bloody sink. Not to be sensationalist, but prosecutors say the man was standing at the sink watching himself get stabbed to death, watching himself get murdered and bleed out at the sink, watching himself get stabbed to death, watching himself get murdered and bleed out over over the sink. Oh, but Mercedes, she's so concerned about the family's peace. Give me a break. A very pregnant Megyn Kelly in that clip. But that gets to it, right? I mean, the thing because I've been asking myself, Mark, what is it about the Jody Arias case that kept people so riveted? And in part, it's this mousy little woman who committed one of the most heinous murders that ever came before the national eye. You left out one thing, which is obvious, and maybe you intentionally did it, but Americans like pretty packages.

Okay. If she wasn't pretty, and I put that in quotations, I mean, it's not how I feel, but there is some type of objective, you know, in Hollywood, what people look for. People found that she was attractive. And if she wasn't, and she looked differently, I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's, let's bring that out. That's, that's gotta be something that you concede, right? And the sex, I mean, it was like an R rated trial. It was like Cinemax back in the day. Oh yeah. No, there was a lot of that. Yes. And, and she really threw punches. I mean, she really, you know, dead man can't tell tales. He was dead.

She was free to say whatever the hell she wanted. So whether it be, you know, allegations of him being involved in kiddie porn, which he can't defend or, or, or him wanting to do, which really was documented because you heard those horrible audio tapes of him, you know, some of the things he would do to her, which weren't meant for public viewing. It was just horrible. All right. So let's start at the beginning. These two meet in 2008, I think it was, 2008 at a business convention. And 2006, sorry, these two meet in September 2006 at a work conference in Las Vegas, Nevada, Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander. And then they start dating a few months after that. As far as I can tell, Mark, they were only dating for like four months, but then continue to sleep with each other.

Yeah, it sounds like it became very physical, very quickly. And, you know, she's the manipulative type, right? So I can't imagine this was pure love. I think this was lust. I think this was her, you know, playing the angles, looking to manipulate him. And she jumped all in real quick. Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship, because I think she was like 28, he was a couple years older than that, that she was some sort of a psycho, that she had, you know, problems with other partners in turning into a stalker or any other criminal history? I don't remember hearing anything like that. I heard little stories, but, you know, everybody comes out of the woodwork on high profile cases, nothing that I attributed as credible and believable. So he was a Mormon and she wasn't until after she met him, right? Right. Right. She became a drive-through Mormon, you know, all of a sudden I'll convert. I'm sure that was, you know, again, to somehow take one step further into his

good graces. So they've, they, they meet, uh, yeah, here she is getting her, you know, I don't know. Is it a baptism into the Mormon face? I'm not exactly sure how we would refer to this, but they date from February of 2007 to June, 2007. And then they break up and maintain a physical relationship. One year later, one year later, she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents' house. This would become important because it was one week before the murder. And what happened in that burglary? Yeah, next level stuff. She's thinking, okay, they stole a gun from my grandparents. So that gun's out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun, however, self-defense. And if she intentionally staged a burglary at her parent, her grandparents' house a week before the murder, then it's very clearly a premeditated act. Absolutely. The best she's got is, well, I brought it with me for protection.

I was going on the road, whatever. I didn't mean to kill him. I had it with me. Doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to kill him, but it's strong evidence of it. But I got to go back. There's something that's bothering me and it'll bother me tonight, Megan. I had brought out that she has a pretty shell to many people. Did you concede that? Is she what you would call attractive? And I'm not talking about her soul. I'm not talking about, I'm just saying, don't you think that that played a role in why people cared so much? Why the media was. Oh, sure.

Yeah. If you have an attractive defendant or victim, I mean, I think she was prettier when things started. And then when she took the stand, when she was at trial, she tried to make herself look very plain Janie mousy, you know, but like the blonde and you know, the naked pictures, obviously she's got a very good body. All those things play into, Oh, what's happening there. I do want that kind of a person. Right. All right. I got what I needed. You can move along. I got it. I just needed to know that. Okay. So the date of that burglary was May 28th, 2008, June 2nd, 2008, which is now two days before

the murder. She rented a vehicle from budget rent-A-Car in Redding, California. And then on June 4th, 2008, Travis Alexander was killed in Mesa, Arizona. So, I mean, to me, this does all look like premeditation. She looks like a jilted lover who became a stalker, who became obsessed with him. We're told that in, I think, April, right before the fake burglary at her grandparents' house, he was going to go with her on some trip. That's right. And then he bailed. Cancun. Everybody wants to go to Cancun, baby. And then he she thought she was in the money. She was going to go with him. It's going to be romantic. He's going to really spend the dough on me. He's going to go with him. It's going to be romantic. He's going to really spend the dough on me.

He's going to be romantic. And he picked another girl. That was it. And that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic. Like you never know what's going to set some crazy stalker off. Sure. To the point of whatever. It'll disappoint any normal gal who has strong feelings for someone for whatever reason. But when you take someone who's, you know, who knows how this exactly files in June 4th, 2008. That's the day of the murder. Uh, and we'll

get to what happened that day, but weirdly his body was not found for another five days. Why do we know why that was like, did he not have a job? Did he not have friends? How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that a body? Did he not have friends? How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that a body's five days in the apartment without anybody noticing? Yeah, it was like that. I'm trying to think of the specifics, but they, he was supposed to be somewhere and then they checked in on him. I think a friend did finally wasn't there, but yeah, I don't think he had any place that he had to be. He didn't have roommates. He didn't have nosy, you know, parents coming around. So, yeah, it just happened.

Wow. All right. So the day of the murder, June 4th, what happened? She she goes over there. And what happened? Well, I don't know. Meaning, you know, we have what was alleged by the prosecution. The jury found her guilty. You never really know exactly what took place. But what it looked like was she had a plan to execute him. And that's exactly what happened. She tried to defend with he was attacking me. And that was malarkey. Initially, though, I think she was on inside edition and told a few people I wasn't there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. I had nothing to do with it. And then when the evidence comes out, like most of my clients do, they go, oh, wait, you got that evidence. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was there, but that's what happened.

So initially, you know, the murder happens on June 4th. She leaves. We, we know, I mean, she winds up confessing on the stand. We know she did this crime now. But she left the crime scene. No one finds Travis until his friends realize like he's not showing up at events, et cetera. And they go to his house. They the friends find his body in a crumpled heap in his shower. An incredibly bloody crime scene and called 911. Here's a bit of that call. It's not one. Hello. Hi. So what's going on? He's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay. How did this happen? Do you have any idea? We have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days. She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head? Did he? No, it's all over

the place. And right away, Mark, the friends suspected her. They described her to the authorities as as a potential stalker. And that's what Travis had been saying about her. But they did have sex that day, right? I mean, like, it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual interlude prior to the murder. That's what's so unusual. Listen, you know, this guy clearly was a guy with strong emotions, which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that. And, you know, they went at it. And my guess is, there were some discussions. Maybe that was her way of trying to convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for Cancun to go.

I don't know, but something happened and she snapped if, if she didn't plan on doing this anyway, no matter what. Cause you have hours and we know this because they found a camera that the two had been taking pictures of the sexual acts. There's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera. I mean, very cons minute she's executing him in a horrible, horrible, tragic way, which we're going to get to. But why do you think was just a genuine hookup. And I think she had this whole thing planned. She went there to murder him. And this was her farewell, you know, send off to the guy. I do. That's why she's a sick effer. And so I think she had the whole thing planned out. This was there's no other reason.

OK, that is just cold as ice, baby. Wow. That's her. That's what's interesting about her. I mean, from a, you know, I never thought about that perspective. Like why? In fact, in my mind, I couldn't wrap my head around that theory. And so I then thought, okay, she's got it just in case, whatever. And then things go awry. And then she kills him either second degree or she just said, OK, it's part of my plan that I'm now going to implement. And she had time to think about it when she's there and she does it. But I don't know, man, you think she knew she was going out in great detail, but she's a bad murderer. I mean, she's, she was effective at committing the murder, but very bad at covering up her tracks. And she should have spent more, more time in the planning and the lying phase because she turned

out to be a disaster at that. Now she very shortly thereafter gets arrested. The friends are like, it was, it was Jodi Arias. She's a stalker. Meanwhile, the day after the murder, she went and saw another love interest. Some guy named Ryan Burns, a former coworker of her, of his, of hers in Utah, that guy, I think he also took the stand. It's like, that's how cold she is, Mark. Like she, now at this point, there's no doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before she goes off to see another lover. Oh, no problem. I mean, yeah. Consistent with what you were saying, like to be able to have sex with, with, with this guy before she, she kills him, you know, there's Travis already. He's dead. She, she seems to just manipulate. And this is also what I know after the fact I'm jumping ahead of how she

manipulates everybody in prison and stuff like that. But that seems to be her MO. I don't know that type of person, but someone who, who can't have an honest relationship and it's all about manipulation. So she probably had numerous fellas in her life, including the guy you just mentioned where, okay, onto him. What do I need from him? Let me manipulate him to get it. And they're, they tend to be narcissistic personalities, right? Who it's all about them. You only matter to the extent you reflect off of them. You cannot leave them. You certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with Jody. And that's why you can't process it as a normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get dumped. It's sad, but we don't kill anybody. So she goes

to see Ryan. Let me tell you this. That type of person gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me, you know, who's got sensibilities, the right moral compass, who goes to work every day, kids, family, normal, they come in and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these people. And a lot of times you're like, but wait, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that. There's no way that happened. I couldn't have done that. Even with the Murdoch trial to this day, I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed. It's hard for me to actually see it because it's so foreign to me and what I would do and what the average juror can wrap their heads around.

Well, that plays into the brutality of the crime because you look at this beautiful, tiny woman and you do not think she would be capable of this. You know, you see like two big, muscly men with the tats in the prison in their background and you think oh okay but this drops from the eye yeah the tattoos you see jodi eris you think nope because the level of violence that went down at this crime scene was unbelievable 27 stab wounds oh yeah a slit throat and a gunshot to his face. And the medical examiner testified that the, the actual like slicing was extremely deep, three to four inches deep, uh, into his neck. Trying to find the exact, um, the description of it, but it was absolutely merciless. She, she nearly decapitated him while he was in that shower. She clearly went in there while he was showering and nearly decapitated him, stabbed him 27 times. And then the medical

examiner said after that shot him in the face. So, I mean, the level of anger behind that Mark speaks to what, I mean, I don't know. What do we, what do we glean from the level of violence? It goes back to what I keep trying to do in my head, maybe as a defense lawyer, as a compassionate soul, to believe that something went down before that happened, that he said something that set her off. I find it hard to believe, although I'm not relating to this type of person, that she and this is probably what she did, that she had the whole plan. And this was, as you say, her goodbye love session. And then I'm going to get them in the shower. And she did. It just seems more consistent with someone who is set off by some words or action. Okay. But how can that be? Because we've seen the crime photos and among the photos that they found on the camera, which she left behind, is there are photos of Travis in that shower. And it appears to be after the lovemaking, you know, he's in the shower, he's not wearing his clothing. And that's, of course, we know where he was killed and he's

okay. There are photos of him in the shower. He's okay. So you don't have a fight. I mean, like an errant word from the shower as she was photographing him naked after their lovemaking. That doesn't make sense. My theory makes much more sense. No, it might. Again, listen, I'm not defending this woman at all. I'm just saying as a human being, I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap my head around what she did. It's so challenging. And it's hard to understand how she, this life thin little thing could, could kill him, could kill a man. He wasn't overly large, but he was bigger than she was. And how do you stab a man? 27, I mean, he was in the shower, I guess he's vulnerable and he's not

expecting it. But I mean, if that, if that, you know, slice across the neck was number one, then that would have been the end of it. And it probably, and that, if that, you know, slice across the neck was number one, then that would have been the end of it. And it probably, and it probably wasn't. I think the medical examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first, which would make sense. She's, he's caught off guard. He goes like this, she continues to stab. Um, but you just said it he's off guard. He doesn't expect it. He's vulnerable. He's got nothing to defend himself except a bar of soap. You know, what do you do? She, she, she knew what she was doing and she's passionate and aggressive and, and, and wanted it done. And then to shoot him after the

fact is that Emmy said that he didn't see a brain hemorrhage from the bullet in Travis's head. And he said there would be if, if the bullet had gone in there while he was alive and his blood was pumping. So she shot him. He just made sure, you know, he was a hundred percent dead. She wanted this guy dead. She was very angry with him, which again suggests that I think my theory, you know, she was angry. She was dumped. She was angry. She wasn't going to Cancun. You don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like Jodi Arias. And the whole thing was a setup. That's, you know, that seems to be what the evidence suggests. I agree. I just I just cannot relate. It's going to take me some time to process.

Probably tonight as I'm laying down writing my gratefuls. Wait a second. She had sex with him as a goodbye. Megan said that. And I trust Megan. I believe her and then executes him in the most violent manner. In other words, after stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her. You know, it required another few jabs right now. We're at 21, 22, still not enough. I need about six more. And then I'm going to slash his throat and shoot him. You really do have to think about what she actually did to appreciate how abhorrent this was. My God. And then, and

then leave his crumpled dead body in the shower. Like he was trash. Um, she did get arrested a month and a couple of days after the act, uh, then more bizarre behavior came out. I'll get to the interrogation room, but she gave an interview to inside edition. Well, Mark's number one advice to all of his clients. Do not talk. Shut up. Let me do the talking. If there's going to be any talking, she talked to the fish who kept his mouth shut never got caught, right? That's right. That's right. And I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial.

I've done it in many cases, but that's after you know what the evidence is, you know the parameters, you know how you can and can't get hurt. What she did was just reckless. So she gives an interview to Inside Edition, which actually makes some sense knowing her in the way we do. She did. She was a narcissist. She wanted to be a star. She cared about how she looked, how people were perceiving her. I think she was seeing an opportunity to like see her name in lights as opposed to just like, oh, my God, keep yourself out of bars. Here is a bit of what she told Inside Edition. This is well before the trial after she'd just been placed in jail.

Did you kill Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in any way. I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals. Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened? They came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis? No, I've never even shot a real gun.

You did not stab him 27 times? That's heinous. Or slit his throat from ear to ear? I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm innocent. And you can mark my words on that one.

No jury will convict me. Oh, man. Oh, man, Megan. We could do an hour just on that. There is so much there. So wait. All right. So let me just go. First of all, the one thing she asked for was for makeup prior to her mugshot. That's what she's thinking about. Right. Right. I'm not thinking about a life of having to never take a shower ever again in a jail or prison because, you know, I'm too pretty. She's worried about her mugshot. She needs to mix. There we go.

It is a nice mugshot. So it goes to your point how she's so narcissistic. She wants the world to love her and believe that she's, you know, Snow White. But look at the way she acted. This is why you never know anyone. You just know how they want you to see them because she looks believable. If you know nothing about the facts of the case and you look at you go, yeah, how could she have done that? So beware. You never really. I watched that interview, Mark, and all I can think of is Phil Houston, the human lie detector, CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used there. He was at CIA for 25 years and what he talks about, I'll set it up for you. I'll play it again, but listen to how,

okay, she does a couple of the things convincing behavior. If I say to you, Mark, did you kill this guy? You say, no, you don't try to convince me you would never kill anybody. That's, that's not what a normal non-killer does. Um, so the convincing behavior, the deflecting behavior, the qualifying statements, the trying to convince you she's a good person. Listen, listen to it again. Understanding those are signs of deception. Did you kill Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in any way. I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals.

Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened? They came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis? No, I've never even shot a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times. That's heinous.

Or slit his throat from ear to ear. I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm innocent. And you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me. Classic.

That's heinous. That's convincing. I can't imagine ever slitting. So who says that? You wouldn't say that. You'd say, no, no, I didn't do it. Period. Listen, in retrospect, you see all these signs. You don't really see it up front, but she did. You know, listen, there's one thing that she did say that really bothers me. I know it's probably for other cases, but when I can't stand when people blame other people for their crimes and worse, I actually think there should be an enhancement, a penalty enhancement when you pick somebody of

a certain race or gender. Oh, black man. It is. It was two Latino women who did this or was two black males who I can't stand that. All right, I'm done. No, it happens all the time. Yeah, two Latino women. Who is that? That was the blonde lady, the wife who staged her own disappearance. What's her name? So now, so how many, how many Hispanic Latino women are stopped and questioned and harassed in that area because of what she said? Right.

I can't say what the area said. I couldn't pick them out of a lineup. Like, don't bother. Don. Right. I can't say what the area said. I couldn't pick them out of a lineup. Like, don't bother. Don't worry. We won't. Oh, Sherry Papini. Sherry Papini was the one that was not wasting precious judicial and law enforcement resources on her trying to identify someone that give her credit. Yes. OK, so she gives that B.S. interview. I mean, it's so weird. And you can take it right now. I'm not going to be convicted. What the hell? This is not a sports game. Like just, this is a crazy person sitting there though. Not legally, but on the subject of craziness, there was video of her in the interrogation room at the police station doing a headstand. And I want to ask you, why, why did she do this? They left her alone in the interrogation room for the listening audience. She goes down headstand legs up against the wall. She's got no shoes on. She's in civilian clothes. She holds it for 30 seconds. They said she then

began to walk around the little interrogation room and sing a Dido song, uh, and search through the trash. So Mark, what's that about? Well, whenever I've done that, Megan, I have no idea. I should know what that means. That's a nut job. Is she going for an insanity thing? That's my first thought was she's trying to look like a nutcase in the most serious circumstances. She's doing headstands. No, no, no, no, no. I eliminate that. Listen, of all your theories, that one I don't like because that would mean this narcissist who has consistently said that it wasn't her. She wasn't there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. She's not going to then say, I'm nutty. I'm crazy. I did it, but I did it because I'm, you know, I don't know right from wrong and I have a mental illness or defect. There's no way

that that's what she was doing. So could it just be she's been in there for hours and somehow in her apartment she does that? I don't know. There's women who do headstands like that for some purpose, I think. Right. Isn't that part of some post? Yeah, I mean, it could have been a stress reliever. I don't know.

It could have been a stress reliever. I'm sure she was stressed. You heard in that interview with Inside Edition, she claimed for the first time two intruders killed Travis and that she was there as well. The ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup. She continued to claim a home invasion and that we'd been there having a consensual sexual interlude using the camera before the intruders got there. The camera is one of the most interesting things about the whole day. They took pictures of each other. She took pictures of him post-injury, like post.

At least one picture, they say, was of him in the shower, like while he was being attacked. And so we have crime scene photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him. But the reporting was that there was at least one photo post initial injury. How does this person leave the camera there? And I think they eventually found it like in the washing machine or. Yes. I'm glad you said that that I was getting that vibe. It was either washing machine. I'm thinking back all these years. It was either washing machine or dryer. So I think it was the washing and somehow the, um, I don't know, the little disc or whatever they use was still good. And they were able to get those photos. And again, once that evidence

came in, that's it. She's done all our stories. I don't get it, Mark. She leaves. She's got all the time in the world. She leaves. They don't find the body for five days. She knows there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him moments before he dies. Now, why? Why? Why? Why would she? Why? Why? That's what I think happened. Why wouldn't she just take it with her? I don't get it. It's too stupid. Is she a moron? She left a lot of clues and she's serving a life sentence. I wouldn't put her up there with Einstein. Yeah. She gets arrested. She goes on trial once she takes the stand. And was it a surprise? You remember because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to offer its side. Was it a shock when she took the stand?

I don't think I was shocked. No. In fact, the type of person that she was very outspoken, very passionate. I think she needed to. I think that she, I think it was expected. I don't think I was shocked. Okay. Because somebody is going to have to say what happened inside of that room and she's going to have to admit she was there now, thanks to the photographic evidence. Yeah. And also anytime there's any element of self-defense, which is pretty much what she was saying that she was attacked and then she had to do something that can't be brought out by a lawyer. You got to put them up there. OK, because because she started with intruders to inside addition, she continued with home invasion.

And, you know, I was an innocent victim that saw him, you know, get attacked. And then she switched. She switched to Travis attacked me and I killed him in self-defense. She, in August of 2010, she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from Travis Alexander admitted into evidence. The letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self-defense. The prosecution objected saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim of self-defense and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by Mr. Alexander, but they denied that. And they said that these letters should not be allowed. Um, her new theory was that Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self defense. That was ultimately Mark, what she did claim in front of the jury, was it not? That's all that was left.

In other words, OK, the two intruder theory didn't work. Everything else didn't work. Then you're left with, all right, I'm there. I can either do insanity, which works in a fraction of 1% of the cases. And in this case, with all the planning and all the, you know, lies after the fact would absolutely not work. So by, you know, the same way I took the bar exam, I might not have known the answer, but I eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer. And what's left is the only thing I got to go with. He sexually pressured me. He treated me like I was his sexual plaything. I didn't enjoy it. He was this Mormon who, you know, made me do dirty things that I didn't want to do because he, whatever, he had some beliefs that he didn't want to cross. Here's some of that.

Okay, we have, first of all, she accuses him of being a pedophile just to set the jury's expectation of him, you know, where she wanted it. Right. Absolutely no proof of that whatsoever other than her weird word here that is sought for. I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating. And I got really embarrassed. It was a picture of a little boy. Oh, five-ish, five, six. I'm not a good judge of age. He was dressed in underwear, like briefs. I was frozen there for a minute. And I just ran.

I didn't stay. I felt nauseated. Ran inside and threw up in the bathroom. That's a clip from HLM, which is why there's music over the weird testimony. But yeah, so she tries to condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started and had Spider-Man pajamas ordered to the house. Like she was very specific. She's dangerous because she's not an idiot. I mean, she's dumb, but she's not an idiot. I don't know what that means, but you know what I'm saying? She's very cunning, not a criminal master. What's that? I said, she's not a criminal mastermind, but that doesn't saying she's very cunning, not a criminal master.

What's that? I said she's not a criminal mastermind, but that doesn't mean she's not smart. She's correct. She's creative. She's, you know, cunning. She she plans these things out. She had plenty of time to to plan how she was going to lower him in the eyes of the jury. And you dig from the pedophile card deck, that's about as low as you go. That was the worst. So then she tries to say that she had to give him

certain forms of sex because he was a Mormon and this is what he required of her. I'll let her tell it. This is Sot 5. Sex is sex. There's just different ways to have sex. And it seemed like, it seemed like Travis was kind of, I don't know how to put it, but it just seemed like he sort of had like the bill clinton version whereas over here it seemed like you know oral and anal sex were also sex to me but not for him so now she's jody the librarian right she's got her little glasses on he made me do it this way and the other way this That's pedophile. This is the defense. This is one of the reasons why America was riveted.

So transparent what she's doing, to me anyway, and I think to the jurors also, but you still got to do it. You dealt the cards that you have. You got to play them. You have a horrible defendant, but there's no other way to advance that ridiculous self-defense theory. Well, is that true? I mean, if you had been her defense attorney, what would you have done?

Not write a tell all book and get disbarred. We'll get to that. Um, uh, what would I do? Probably what happened here? I would, um, it would be obvious painfully to me that my client is guilty as they come. And I would say to that person, um, first of all, there might be offering you life. Um, you might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty, try to persuade her that her chances are very low of prevailing. Um, she, the narcissist

would say, I'm not going to be convicted. So I'd go and I'd say, okay. And to myself professionally, I'd say winning is defined by doing everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client. Whether they say guilty or not guilty is not in my control. And so testifying is her option. If she wants to testify, she testifies. In other words, yeah, I might lose this case. And you know what? I'm fine with that. This is the problem. I mean, basically you try to cut a deal on it with a client like this, because there's just no question that the jurors are going to find her guilty. Juan Martinez was the prosecution. And I, one thing I do remember is you did not like him. You did not like the way he behaved. Listen, the main reason why I accepted

your invitation is because I get another crack at talking about his cross-examination. Okay. So let's set it up before, before we play the soundbite of that. Um, he had two weeks to present his case. It's kind of open and shut. What should he have done? What, what would you have preferred to see a prosecutor do? Okay. Ready? Yeah. And I'm talking to the Murdoch, uh, prosecutors, you know, everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such accolades and they did good things. I'll give them credit for that. I'm merely talking about cross-examination, which is an art form. I have taught my students that you don't wing it. You carefully craft every single question that you're going to ask, knowing that it could go this way or this way.

And then you are ready with the follow-up. Isn't the fact that on such and such a day, you said this and you boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's a lean filet mignon. You don't present a big fatty steak wandering around. Hey, Mr. Martinez, your ego is not your amigo. You don't get up there and make it about you. You don't take days. You don't try to grandstand like he did. I thought his cross-examination was horrible. And people are going to say, oh, you're jealous, this and that. I'm not. I don't care. I wish him well. I'm simply saying that it was a D minus on the scale. And I'm telling you this, don't go by the outcome. This case could have been won by by rookie prosecutors. I'm talking about how he did

on cross. Both he and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross-examination. Yes, I've said it publicly. Yes, I've said it publicly. I know. I agree with you. And now I have to tell you, I listen to some of these friends of the Murdoch prosecutors on their little podcast and they're like, oh, people just didn't get it. They just didn't get how brilliant that cross was. It's like, no, people know how to do a proper cross-examination and they could have, it would have been over and done with had they done it properly. They let him go on. There was a chance the jury could have bonded with the guy. They took unnecessary risks in that cross of Alex. I agree with you. Uh, okay. So here's one. You don't take credit because the guy, either the guy or in this case, Jody looked bad. Oh,

look at me. I made her look bad. She would have looked just as bad without the opportunity to then explain human eyes go on and on. There's no need for that. There's no reason to take a risk on a single question. Good lawyers carefully craft everything. We think about everything we're doing. These guys look like they were winging it and they were. That's unacceptable.

And you stay in control the whole time. You're the one who's speaking that witnesses just there to say yes or no. That's it. You are the one who's telling the jury the story. We're really listening to the prosecutor with limited exceptions when I know no matter what they do or say, they're hanging themselves. So every now and then I'll throw that in just to switch it up because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points for them. Well, here's let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez. Here is the prosecutor, Juan, trying to have Jody demonstrate Travis's alleged attack because she's claiming I dropped his camera. Then he came for me. He chased me. That's why I had to kill him. Here's just a little bit of

that exchange. And then I'll play the feistier one. Ma'am, if you wouldn't mind, stand up, go to the left and show me the posture of Mr. Alexander immediately before he rushed you, according to you. Um, before he rushed you, according to you. As he was running... No, no, just show me. That's what I'm asking you to do, not talk.

Show me. Show me the linebacker pose. He got down and... Well, show me. Show me the linebacker pose. That's what I'm asking for you to do. Okay. He went like that,

and he turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that, correct? Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right? I can't say it's just like that, but turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that, correct? Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right? I can't say it's just like that, but that's what I remember. Well, no, just, I want, without talking, just show me the pose. He got down like that.

Like that? Yeah. All right, go ahead and have a seat then. He's already annoying. Megan, let me at him. Okay, first of all, nobody likes a bully. He's already annoying. wondering, ma'am, I get a sense that, and I really questioned her very firmly because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board with the plan of being fair. There was a tear that fell down from her eye. And I realized in that moment, I asked her, I go, is everything okay? She goes,

I don't know. It's just your energy. Like I feel like you're, and I realized, oh my God, I'm too much for people at certain times. Similarly, what Juan Martinez is doing is being so overly aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn certain jurors off. There's no reason to be that way in a case like this. That's the first criticism. I've got more with what I just saw. Okay. There's more coming. Um, I'll play another sound bite and then you can resume. Uh, there was this tense moment where she got after him for his style. You know, it got to the point where she actually had to call him out. Here's a little bit of that on SOT7.

What factors influence you're having a memory problem? Usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same. So that affects your memory problems, right? It does. It makes my brain scramble. So you're saying that it's the core, basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that you can't remember things that are going on. It's not your fault. I'm not saying that. You're saying that, isn't it? No, I'm not saying that. Is there something about a certain decibel of the voice that creates problems? Decibel tone content, sort of a combination of those factors.

Go ahead. God, it's so horrible. And the public doesn't understand because they don't see great cross examinations when they're watching these high profile cases. I haven't seen it recently. There's been some examples. There's some exceptions, none that come to mind. Johnny Depp's lawyer with Amber Heard. What's that? Which one? Johnny Depp's lawyer cross-examining Amber Heard. Very effective. Probably. I'm trying to remember. I can't remember her name. She became a star. She's now an NBC contributor.

She did it exactly the way we're discussing. It was textbook market. It was, isn't this true? Isn't that true? And then you did this and then this, isn't that true? Misheard your honor. Please direct the witness to answer my question and not, not to go on like this. You know, like she controlled the witness. What's, what's her name, Steve? Camille Vasquez. Yeah, she was good. She was solid. I agree. So two things. One, in the first clip that you played, you're asking the defendant now to give her version again, giving her another opportunity to then display for the jurors why she's not guilty. I would never do that. I just make fun of it. And the second clip, you look at him. He doesn't have those questions prepared. He's just winging it. That's what a

rookie lawyer does or someone who doesn't do cross-examination. It's not to say there's not room for spontaneity, but I plan my spontaneity. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but that's what I do. It's all planned do. You sound like a great person to hang out with for a wife. Not always. I'm talking about not in the bedroom, in the courtroom. Come on. And on three. Okay. Let's talk about the fact that your friend Juan Martinez, in addition to the defense lawyer, have both been disbarred since then. They both lost their law licenses. Yeah. Yeah. Different reasons.

But can we back up a little bit? Because we we left out one of the biggest things in the trial. Well, yeah, I'm not done with the trial, but I do think it's interesting that your friend lost his law license. And I think when people look at that cross-examination, it's very interesting to know, quoting now the AP, that Martinez was accused later, this is why he lost his law license, of leaking the identity of one of the Jody Arias jurors. He leaked the identity to a blogger with whom he was having a sexual relationship, then lied to investigators about it. That's what he was accused of. And of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks in his office. He chose not to defend the charges and consented to disbarment. And what's happening?

What are you doing? It's a fog, Megan. Like Jodi Aris, don't you remember? She was in a fog. What? You don't think I bring props out for you? Come on. You got dry ice in your office. It's a little machine I gave to my son for his 13th birthday. But so appropriate, really, when we're talking about the fog and how Jodi Arias was in a fog. She didn't remember anything. Don't you remember the famous fog?

Come on. She was in a fog. The lawyer, too. All right. Kill the fog. The lawyer, too, was in a fog as he was sexually harassing all the female law clerks

to the point where they were they had to run. He was staring at the chest of some female employees in the county prosecutor's office, looked them up and down as they walked away. Some female employees would hide in the bathroom, duck into cubicles or engage in busy work to avoid encountering Martinez. He got fired after 32 years as a prosecutor, then lost his law license. That's the man I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on. What an unsubtle pig. You know, I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on. What an unsubtle pig. You know, I read that to my wife. She's like, ah, what a horrible. And I looked at it from her perspective and, and women don't like that,

you know, and what a horrible place to be, you know, where, where all day long you have this guy staring at you and he's not subtle. And it's just it's just horrible. You know, it's creepy. Well, so you I mean, I think your instincts were dead on. You understood this is not a good lawyer and this is not a good man. And you had a revolt in watching him. That was well placed. But the evidence was so strong against her. It didn't wind up hurting his case. He did ultimately get a confession on the stand, which was rather helpful.

I mean, we knew that she killed him because she was claiming self-defense by that point. But here is the moment of confession on the stand when she breaks down Sod 8. Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes. Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso? Yes. And you're doing all of this to, according to your version of events, you're doing this to this individual after you have already shot them, right?

Yes. What do you make of that? Give him credit again. Megan, that was her whole theory. She was admitting that she did the abhorrent acts for which she's accused. If anything, he could have artfully said, all right, just so these jurors are crystal clear. The first stab that went into his body. You did that. Not

two strangers that you initially said, these two intruders, right? Then another jab, and then another jab. This one over here by the heart, that was you, not somebody else. And then he could have gone on and on and on about every stab that she did. And then to really highlight the brutality, especially since he's going for the death penalty after. So you really want to highlight it. The best he had was you stabbed him in the torso. Yes, yes. No, 27 times. And then you did this or whatever order he wants. That was you're giving him credit. And yeah, OK, he did that. But again, it was wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity. That's a good point. Drive it home. was wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity.

That's a good point. Drive it home. And I found the medical examiner's testimony that I was looking for earlier. Kevin Horn testified about the stab wounds and said the slash wound to Travis's throat was three to four inches deep and went to the spinal cord in the back of the neck, had two major vessels that had been sliced. He would have lost a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost consciousness within seconds and died a few minutes later. And then of course she shot him as well. But he talked about the wounds to Travis's hands that must've been before the fatal injury. So the guy fought for his life. He must've been terrified. This person he trusted who was, you know, he was undressed with had had this interlude with surprises him in this place. That's supposed to be, you know, in violet, the shower, my God. Um, so you're right. And, and his failure to bring home

the brutality did come back to haunt him at the penalty phase. Yeah. I'm still actually thinking of ways that I would have done this differently. I would have said, I'm sorry, Ms. Arias. I see that you're crying. Do you need a moment? And by the way, Ms. Arias, were you crying? Stab number seven. Were tears running down your eyes then? When you did this, were you crying then? Okay. Do you need time? I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes, but I'm not going to let her hide her face in that tissue and put on that act. Ms. Arias, can you look at me? I'm asking you to let her hide her face in that tissue and put on that act. Miss Arias, can you look at me?

I'm asking you some questions. If you need time, I'll give you some time. She's hiding her face. The jurors need to judge her credibility, Your Honor, assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to control her that way. I'd go sidebar and say, judge, they're judging. She's hiding her face. I want them to see her face. She needs time.

I'll give her time. But I'm not going to let her bury her face when I'm asking her to talk about the most intimate of brutality that she committed. No way. That's a good point. Does anyone have a scrunchie? Who's got a scrunchie? Let's get that hair back. No, you're right.

That was clearly a tactic. Well, the jury didn't buy it because after she'd after she'd been on the stand for, they say 18 days, 18 days between direct and cross-examination, many felt that was a tactic by her defense lawyer to create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not vote for death. Do you agree that was a strategy? A hundred percent. And let me just say this. I just finished a federal trial. My client wanted to take the witness stand. My direct was extremely long. Number one, I'm humanizing my client. Number two, there was a lot to talk about, right? Number three, it is difficult when they don't know who your client is. The prosecutors will always call them the defendant. I'm here to humanize my client.

And yes, in that case, they want to slaughter her. They want to kill her, right? The ultimate sanction. So that serves a purpose. Kudos for the defense lawyer, not the prosecutor, the defense lawyer. I don't care how long he takes. As long as it's productive and it's routine,

they've rehearsed it all, it's choreographed, she could look great on direct, long, long, long, long cross. Not the same. What do you mean? Cross needs to be tight. It needs to be planned out. It shouldn't go for a more than a day. And certainly within that day, I'd say a few hours you could make your points. That's it. OK, you don't want to print Juan Martinez show. This isn't about you, dude. Stop making it about you. You don't want to prolong the relationship between this person and the jurors any more so than than the defense lawyer did on the direct.

All right. So the jury gets the case. Ultimately, the jury was read in court. Here's soundbite nine. The state of Arizona versus Jodi Ann Arias verdict count one. We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one first degree murder guilty. Five jurors find premeditated, zero find felony murder, seven find both premeditated and felony.

Signed, four person. Is this your true verdict, so say you want it all? I mean, it wasn't a shock. She actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict. It wasn't a shock to anybody. Don't credit her with having real emotion and equating whatever she just did to how you and I. She's in a whole different area code psychologically. I don't know what that was. I don't. Right. We don't.

More acting. Well, then then we moved on to the penalty phase. Will she get life in prison or will she get the death penalty? And that is in Arizona is up to the jury, at least on the initial go around. And so the jury had to wrestle with that. She got to say how she felt about the death penalty in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix the week she was found guilty. Listen to this on 11. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So I'd rather just have my freedom soon as soon as I can get it. So you're saying you

actually prefer getting the death penalty to being in prison for life? Yes. Then here she is addressing the jury. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, no. Megan, come on. That was brilliant. You like that? Ultimately in manipulation. That's what Nicholas Cruz should have done. I want death for killing all those kids at Marjory Stoneman Douglas. Again, it's reverse psychology. She doesn't want to die. She doesn't want to be a death row. She's going to be the queen in prison. She wants to live out her life. And so she just does the twist. That's the ultimate manipulation for that, I'm sure. So she did it with the jury as well.

A couple of examples of her addressing. We'll start with 12. This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. It's the worst thing I ever could have seen myself doing. In fact, I couldn't have seen myself doing it. Before that day, I wouldn't even want to harm a spider. I'd gather them up in cups and put them outside. To this day, I can hardly believe I was capable of such violence but I know that I was and for that I'm going to be sorry for the rest of my life probably longer oh lord all right let me add on to that one I'm offended for her making me feel guilty for killing spiders very offensive

and number two come on she's again she, I see how manipulative she is. I keep coming back to that word. And she couldn't drum up any real tears either. It's like, if you really are unjustly convicted, you just look and sound entirely different. Here she is. Wait, one more thing bothers me. I got to get these things off. I'm sorry to keep interrupting.

But if I don't, I'm going to think about them later. Please. Mistake? more thing bothers me i gotta get these things off i'm sorry to keep interrupting but like if i don't i'm gonna think about them later please mistake i can't stand when people call like something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out and as you know just gory as a mistake right 27 stabs those were mistakes you know like like hitler calling the holocaust you know an inconvenience you know a minor blemish on my record, you know, like not minimizing things. It's not a mistake. Right. That's a good point. Like what was the mistake? The three inch, you know, cutting of the carotid artery after you stabbed him 27 times like the number number two through 26. Those were the like in any event. Now here she is asking them for. Well, you'll listen, you'll hear. Sot 13. I've made many public statements that I would prefer the death penalty to life in prison. Each time I said that, though I meant it, I lacked perspective. Until very recently, I could not have imagined standing before you all and asking you to give me life.

To me, life in prison was the most unappealing outcome I could possibly think of. I thought I'd rather die. But as I stand here now, I can't in good conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them. Asking for death is tantamount to suicide. Either way, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison. It'll either be shortened or not.

She was pointing to her parents when she said because of them. So a change of heart, Mark. Yeah, how convenient. I just, that's just so silly. I don't even have anything to say. I think I've said it already. Manipulate. This person is a household name. I mean, think about that so silly. I don't even have anything to say. I think I've said it already. Manipulator. This person is a household name. I mean, think about that. This woman is a household. Now most people in America know who Jodi Arias is because the media took to this case

like moths to a flame. She was the star. She's a sociopath. You can see it's fascinating to see the mind in, in, you know, working like doing its manipulation its manipulation. And you know what? It worked because the jury ultimately did not sentence her to death. They were, it was a hung jury. And then they brought in another jury to try to decide. And they too could not decide on giving her death and without a unanimous vote for it, you don't get it. And that's why she got life in prison without the possibility of parole where she is right now. What we don't know is the split, right? Was it one lone juror? Was it a few? Likely it was a few because, you know, there was a lot of mitigators. I didn't see any of that testimony, but you know, the lack of priors, um, I don't want to start naming them because it'll

look like I'm being sympathetic, but whatever the defense said, there was stuff to work with here. You know, the crime was especially heinous, atrocious and cruel and cold calculated and very premeditated. The state had that going for them. You know, everything else, you know, the mitigators, it was probably a couple of people said, no, she should get life instead. And then that's it. They only needed a few there. I mean, is it true that generally they don't like to give you the death penalty if it's just one murder as opposed to a serial killer or like the guy who takes out his family, you know, how many women actually get the death penalty. You know, it's very rare. And don't you tell me that looks don't matter and how she acts. People consider that. They just do. So we talked about the fact that the prosecutor is now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing. Her lawyer, too, is now disbarred. What did he do?

This bothers me. Another reason why I was looking forward to doing this. This really bothers me. So he writes a book, a tell-all, and included in that book are intimate details that she shared with him while he was representing her. He then writes this book, and she's objecting to it naturally. And apparently they knew about it. The bar did and said, listen, you're either going to for putting this out there, you're either you have two options. One will suspend you for four years, but you cannot then put this book out there or you can lose your law license forever, give it up. And then, you know, obviously then you'll be free to publish that book. He chose option number two. And I'm not going to out anybody, my wife,

who said, good for him for putting that out there. Because I'm sure many people feel that way. And I was so upset about that because, yeah, do I care that Jody Arias's thoughts are put out there? No, because I don't like Jody Arias, but it's so much bigger than that. He is eroding the attorney client privilege where now either my clients or other future clients feel like, wait, is this going to be the lawyer who liked that guy, that Nimrod? You're going to put it out there in some book to capitalize. And then that doesn't give any confidence when anybody goes to speak to an attorney. I'm really bothered by it. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing that two of the main cast characters in this cast wound up disbarred. And the third, the true star is behind bars for the rest of her life without the possibility of parole. There have been some reports that behind bars, she's in a medium security prison. She's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name

on her jail cell mates. Um, lifetime is actually just now, 10 years later, coming out with a docu drama about Jodi Arias and the case and gets into some of that, like her life in jail. We managed to pull a clip Mark Eichlarsch for the, for the entertainment of the audience. Here's a bit. name it's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom you're the worst we do what we have to do but not this story when you get out maybe you can help me get the word out about my innocence sure whatever you need i thank god for you i knew you came into my life for a reason based on a true story there is no question jody killed travis alexander this january everything he said it was a lie i was worried that if I told you what really happened, I'd lose you. It's in the past now and I love you. I can't defend you. Did you believe she was innocent? Yes. Was she innocent? Hell no. I feel like you betrayed me.

I will never forgive you. Bad Behind Bars, Jodi Arias. Bad Behind Bars. She's manipulating after jail. Social media posts, all sorts of bad stuff. Good casting. I mean, you know, I was like, wait, that looks like her. What happens in a medium security prison? How are you able to make friends and, you know, tattoo one another order, she killed a man that many think might have done something bad to her. At least that was her story. So in prison, you know, she's

at the top of the pecking order and with her manipulation and beauty, she's probably living large. And when I say beauty, I use that in quotations. I'm talking about objectively to others. I know she's using that for her own benefit. Is it is is it possible to have a co-ed prison? Because this is where I get confused. They said she met somebody named Donovan Baring while serving time. Donovan was serving time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa County Jail, where they were cellmates for six months. They're both girls. Okay. Then this duo became really close and stayed in touch afterward. Donovan, who I guess is a girl, and Jodi. They stayed tight. Then they were at Estrella, another prison, where this other gal, Tracy, met Donovan for the first time. They got romantically involved. They then say,

by their own admission, Jodi used her good looks and sexuality to get what she wanted and inserted herself into their union as well. Although they never engaged in actual sex acts together, she once delivered a strip tease with Tracy for Donovan and then often refused to leave their cell when they wanted alone time together. From getting them to manage her social media accounts, again, why does she have them to ultimately officiating their wedding ceremony? She did it all for the couple quoting from the cinema, cinemaholic.com. So all of this is documented. I mean, on and on it goes, Mark, once a master manipulator, always a master manipulator. And she has nothing but time on her hands. So she's playing all those games. And I too, by the way, found it confusing at first. I'm like, Donovan, she with a dude? How'd that happen? No, Donovan's a female. And then you play it along

and you figure out what happened. I think as an aside, I read she's got something going on with a guy on the outside. And that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out there, sending letters, wanting to be with her, phone privileges, right? And then eventually she's looking to get married to get the conjugal visits. That's all going to happen. We saw that with Lyle and the other Menendez. That's what they do. It just goes to show you, though, the media is still obsessed with this case. I mean, here we are 10 years later. You don't always do a 10 year retrospective on every case. But I remember covering this all the time that America was into it and wanted more,

more, more, more, more. And here we are 10 years later, and she's still providing material from behind bars. So what's our what's our takeaway when you look back and you say, OK, what lessons can be learned from this case? Anything come to mind? OK, so number one, you never really know anyone. Do not judge someone based upon how they look. And even when you think that you're a good judge of character, you never know. You got to look at the evidence. So once you get the evidence that speaks volumes,

don't judge somebody based upon their demeanor, what they say and how they look, which is, which coincidentally is exactly what courts are about. And that's why they get it wrong all the time. But, you know, the court of public opinion, wait, listen to all the evidence and then you can decide. But we don't do that. The second takeaway I got is, you know, I can't say enough about this prosecutor. Again, he won the case. Good for him. And by winning, I mean, he got the guilty verdict that anyone would have gotten. But his cross examination to this day still is was horrible. I don't even want to put it in the same category as the Murdoch prosecutor. His was not great,

but Martinez's was to me offensive, you know, that that he took a case that was a slam dunk and just took days and days and days to do this horrible badgering, bullying cross. So prosecutors beware, I'm available. You want to reach out to me? We'll make arrangements to make sure that in a very important case that you prepare and all the questions are right there and you've thought them out. That's what matters.

You've got to prepare. Those are two thoughts off the top. You know, the rule is that the jury is supposed to like you more than the defendant. You know, that's your goal when you're cross examining somebody that they will like you, the lawyer more than the person. And that the way to get there is not usually to berate them, to shout at them, to telegraph with every question that you have nothing but dripping disdain for them. They know that they know that if you're the prosecutor, this is going to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey. But I think first for you to be liked by a jury or anyone, you've got to thoroughly and unconditionally like

yourself. And I don't know that Juan Martinez did. Well, it's interesting that he did turn out to be a bad guy. You know, he did such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there. And it's just always interesting when like the outward persona winds up matching with what's going on behind closed doors. It is an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts. I don't believe you can't ever, you can't ever know somebody. My God, Doug, we need to talk. I have

to wait to see the evidence. I love Doug too, but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be. Doug's got stuff inside of Doug and so do you. And so do I. That's we've never let out, not necessarily consciously, but sometimes subconsciously. So again, all we're seeing, and I adore my wife. I love her. But I love what I know about her. There's stuff I don't know about her. And I love her for that, too. And I love her unconditionally.

But again, all we know is what we know. That's it. Turn back on the fog. The fog needs to come back on. Mark Eichlar. It's always a pleasure, my friend. Thank you. Thank you, Megan. I love having Mark Eichlar on. He is one of a kind. I hope you enjoyed revisiting the Jody Arias case with us. Tomorrow, we bring you the woman who made it her mission to take down former subway spokesperson and pedophile, Jared Fogle. I am telling you,

listen to this show. I have not been able to stop thinking about this episode. You will feel the same. I would love to correspond with you over what you hear. Listen to it. Send me an email. You can email me at Megan at Megan Kelly.com. Megan's with a Y don't miss this show. Just trust me. It's an unbelievable and disturbing story. And the woman who is my guest was at the center of it all. It's incredible. See you then. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. show no bs no agenda and no fear