The Megyn Kelly Show - Justine Bateman on Parenting in the Age of Instagram, Beauty Standards for Men and Women, and Dealing with Critics | Ep. 81

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Justine Bateman, author of the new book "Face," to talk about parenting in the age of Instagram, the different beauty standards for men and women, dealing with critics and bullies online, her new movie, Violet, which recently premiered at SXSW, authenticity and living in your own head, her super-stardom as a young teen, the pressure women face to stay "young," and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today on the program, Justine Bateman. She was a superstar back in the 80s and 90s, thanks to her role as Mallory, the daughter on the hit show Family Ties, working with Michael J. Fox and a cast of all stars. And she now has just written, directed and produced a film that's about to come out called Violet, starring Olivia Munn and Justin Theroux. But the real reason I want to talk to Justine Bateman is because she has written two books. The first one, and I talked to her about this on my NBC show, was about fame, and in particular, losing fame, and just how illusory it is, and what nonsense

it is. But the pain and losing it and what that taught her, right? It's like post being a huge star and what that's been like. But the second book, which is called Face, One Square Foot of Skin, is about something else entirely. And it's really aging and how much pressure there is not to do it. Right? Like the last thing you're supposed to do is age as a woman anywhere and certainly in Hollywood. And now it's creeping over to age as a woman anywhere and certainly in Hollywood. And now it's creeping over to men to a lesser extent. Sure, sure. For to a lesser extent, but certainly those who are on camera.

And so we're going to talk about what she's learned because Justine has been bullied. She is the victim of online bullying. Why? Because she chose to age naturally, gracefully. She doesn't she doesn't go for the needles. She doesn't get the filler, Botox, plastic surgery. And as a result, she gets trolled online mercilessly. It's BS. And she's been really thoughtful about it. And she's here to talk to us about all of it. So don't miss that. She's coming up in one second. Stand by first for this.

Justine, hi. Hey, hi. Good to talk to you again. You too. How are you? I'm good, thanks. And you? I'm great.

I'm excited for your new movie. I mean, you're like coming out swinging. So just so the audience understands, it's coming out in March. It's called Violet. And you've got a cast of all stars, Olivia Munn, Justin Theroux. You wrote it, you directed it, and you produced it? Yeah. Yeah.

I produced it with a couple of other people. And yeah, I wrote, directed it. And it was, we finished this last year. So we finished this in like October of 2019. It was supposed to premiere at South by Southwest Film Festival 2020. But that was one of the first events to get canceled because of the shutdown. And so here we are at South by Southwest 2021 mirroring it. So I looked it up online just to see what it was about. And I thought this is classic Justine Bateman, right? Like, I feel like this messaging is right up your alley, but can you just, just tell us what it's about so people understand. Sure. It's about the thoughts we have in our heads or in the film, I call it the voice that treats us like crap that tells us, you know, um, the example I use is, uh, it just, uh, makes us make fear-based decisions. And the example I use is, um, it'll say like, don't wear that shirt

to the party or no one's going to talk to you. And consciously or unconsciously, we think it's true. And so we'll change our shirt. And I believe the more times we make decisions like that based in fear, the further and further away we get from being our true selves. So this is about someone who realizes that that voice has been lying to her her whole life. And it's kind of a map as to how to get from a life where you're making fear-based decisions and not being yourself to a life where you're making instinct-based decisions and you are being yourself. And then, you know, it's just a love story. And, you know, we go into her work life,

her family life, the whole thing. And yeah, Justin Theroux is the voice. Oh, I see. So he's the voice in her head. I like this because in today's day and age, it's all about authenticity. And I don't think most people really understand what that means.

I think they're just trying to try their best to seem authentic rather than just let it fly, let your freak flag fly. And I think that what you find when you are true to yourself is most of the time it works out and it winds up settling as it should. The people who are attracted to you as friends, as lovers, whatever it is, they're there because they should be, because you really are being yourself. But sometimes it's stepping on the rake. Sometimes your authentic self gets you, you know, some sort of injury that you didn't foresee. So how do you balance that, right? That like, it's not, it's not without peril. No, and you know, I think that's one of the reasons that most people make fear-based decisions and are not being themselves.

The ones who aren't being themselves, I believe, it has a lot to do with people pleasing and not wanting to feel outside of the tribe, if you will. And I think a lot of that goes back to our evolutionary roots. You know, your system wants to keep you alive. And part of staying alive is, again, we're getting really down to like, you know, the core function of our brain, you know, staying alive, a lot of that has to do with making sure that there, that you can be provided for making sure that you have, um, access to, you know, food and shelter and companionship is good for our, you know, kind of

emotional survival. But a lot of that I think is based in just making sure you have enough to, you know, when the, when the tribe brings in the, the killed gazelle or something, want to make sure that you have a piece of that. And if you're outside of that, and I know I'm getting really, I'm speaking really, I'm not an anthropologist, but from what I know of anthropology, it just rings true to me. Um, because if you, if you engage that thought that says like, don't wear that shirt to the party and I want to talk to you. And if you, if you engage it and say, well, why, well, then what will happen? And you follow the chain of, of thoughts that follow like, well, then I won't have any friends. Well, then what will

happen? Well, then if I ever need someone, I'm in trouble, I won't have anyone to call. And then what will happen? Well, then maybe I will lose my job and then what will happen? And then you follow that chain down and it winds up that you are desolate and in the streets and then you die. So I do believe that when we make the decision to change our shirt because we're afraid no one's going to talk to us, we're actually reacting to the fear of being desolate in the streets and dying. Do you know what I mean? Because it's an irrational fear that is linked to this core concern that our system has of actually perishing. So I think it's something to look at because I have found that once you expose those sort of thoughts, those irrational kinds of fears,

then just the mere exposure starts to dissolve that fear. It starts to erode that fear, just like anything in nature. You put it out in the elements and it'll start to erode. I always try to not edit those fears before I express them, you know, actually to a person or write it down or something so that it can get that kind of exposure. And, and I've found that to, you know, um, uh, I've had a lot of success with, uh, that kind of process, you know, to having, cause I don't want to change people around me. I don't want to change people around me. I don't have time for that. I'm here for like a second in a time in the timeline of life, but I want to change how I react to what I want to remove my buttons. I don't want to remove the button pushers or change how they're pushing buttons. I just want to remove my buttons so I can be around all of that and, and have it and have it not affect me at all.

And that's one, that's a, that's a method I use to do that. Yeah. And be well, that's, that's one of my things actually that I hate about like all the cancel culture is there's always going to be mean people, you know, who are not, we're not going to get rid of all the people who do something bad or say something bad or feel something bad. It doesn't work that way. You have to work on yourself. You have to work on shoring up yourself. And as you say, removing your buttons, which is possible.

It doesn't mean you don't fight injustice or, you know, stand up for what you think is right. But it all starts with what's inside of you. Yeah. I mean, more like somebody says something that just really, uh, like, uh, affects you. Like you're going along, you're having a happy day. And then somebody makes a comment about your hair and it just, it tweaks you, you know, and the rest of your day you're consumed with the thought of this. And it makes me feel, it makes you feel bad about yourself and all this. And when something like that happens to me, then I have to go write about it and go like, okay, what, what, what button did that push me? Why did that affect me? That, that person should have been able to say that.

And I can just, and it can not bother me at all, but why some, there's something in me that, you know, really pricked some sort of sore or flew in through some sort of open window or door in me, you know, if I use the metaphor of me being a house. So that's what I want to figure out, you know, that's what I want to figure out. Because when I, that piece, like physical critiques, I actually don't relate to that because I'll tell you, I grew up in a house where I was criticized all the time, but not in a mean way. You know, we just made fun of each other. We were Irish and it was, you know, half Italian, half Irish. And it was just sort of our bread and butter to mock one another lovingly. Sometimes it hurt. Most of the times it was funny. And I wonder like,

what was your childhood experience when it, because you, you talk about this in your books, you, you grew up pretty. So did you So did you not have as much of that? You know, they are like the physical barbs. They're hurtful because they're new. Well, the whole reason that, you know, I wrote this second book was because of that, you know, that one chapter in the first book, Fame, where, no, all the attacks I've gotten. I mean, you know, some in school where people kid and everybody's got a nickname, right? You know, but I don't know.

That's just like, if you didn't have a nickname, you feel left out, you know, like some sort of mocking nickname. No, but for me, all the attacks came from fans, I guess. Online and anti-fans online. So yeah, I had that one chapter in fame about how people criticized my face as it was getting older. And then I talk about why I decided to absorb that, why I thought they were right and I was wrong. And I go into that in the fame book. And then I thought, well, why do we even think that way about women's older faces? So that's

where the second book came, um, came from. But, um, that was, those are harder. Uh, those were harder for me to, um, remove my buttons for, because there were so many people saying, I mean, I could find many, many, many message boards related to that topic. So, you know, part of my brain goes, well, if there are a lot of people saying it must be true. It must be true. Right. But then I had to go, no, no, no, it's not. And they're, they're all wrong. How about that? They're all wrong and I'm right. You know, and then go, I hope I'm not deluding myself. I hope I'm not gaslighting myself about this.

You know, and I had all those kinds of thoughts. Well, I love the saying, your only problem is your belief that you have a problem. You know, and if you can get mind control over how you see it, then you dismantle your critics. Well, and when you think about it, you know, the way you think about a situation, I mean, the only thing I feel like we have control over is, I mean, we have control over the choices we make and stuff, but a lot of times the only thing we have control over is our perception of the situation. So, so yes, if somebody says something to you that that you know affects you affects your self-esteem and the way you your identity identity i heard somebody say you can either

have an identity or a personality pick one so let's say it affects your personality or your confidence it's a better better word so affects your. The only person who's keeping that negative thought alive that is affecting your confidence is you really. I mean, you, you know, the mind, the rehearse it over and over and over and over and over again until it's, uh, dug in there pretty well until it becomes this idea then becomes a belief about yourself. And I'm not talking about like self-help methods, like affirmations, because I've not found, maybe that's worked for some people. I've not found that to be helpful. I found it more helpful to get to the root fear that is keeping that rehearsal of that negative thought alive, get to that root fear. Cause that's the

thing that is, that's the engine for that, the repetition of that thought. You know, I was thinking about this after the Meghan Markle interview, because she made a comment that she tried to stay away from the press coverage of her. And I thought right on, that was the right move. And then she said, but her her, quote, friends would call her up and say, it's bad. It's bad. You know, they're not protecting you. And a the thought that she could be protected from tabloid press is, I think, a fantasy. But B, I thought people have done this to me. And I always tell them, don't forward me negative articles about myself.

I don't you may think you're doing me. You're not doing me any favors. I don't I don't need to know. There's't, you may think you're doing me a favor. You're not doing me any favors. I don't, I don't need to know. There's a reason I avoid that stuff. Like the bus exhausted is. And I thought, you know, maybe some of her unhappiness could have been avoided. I realized it's out there. It's the buzz.

It's the smog hanging over, but you can't get rid of all of that. You can only try to shield yourself from the most negative forces and sort of try to put in more positivity in that head. And, you know, her world had a lot of positivity to look at, a lot of positivity, as does mine, you know, as does most people's. And if it doesn't, then you got to work on that, right? But willingly taking in the negativity is step one. And then step two is when it gets to you, whether you're willingly taking it in or not working on how you react to it, how you choose to react to it. I'm going to offer something slightly different. Um, for me, knowing it was out there,

knowing that, you know, and specifically negative, negative things about my face, um, because I needed to get to my root fear. Um, when I say my root fear, I mean like, okay, let's say that's true. Then therefore what in my life, if that's true, then what, then what am I going to lose in my life? What's going to happen to me if all of that's true? So for me, it was reading all of it. So for me, it was, I want to see all of this because I want to be able to read all of it and have it not affect me at all. So I want to go like, Oh, that, that thing that they just said, Oh, that now I know it's just somebody who doesn't know me and God knows what they look like. But it's to me, like, that's not, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's not like, you know, all the, the, the most attractive, smooth faced people in the world were saying this stuff about my face getting older. So, okay. So let's assume that.

Um, and, uh, I was like, I wanted to read it. And then, and then I go like, okay, how does that, why does that hit me? How does that hit me? For example, okay, I read that and like, I'm afraid, oh, if everybody thinks that then nobody's going to look at my face, people will, will turn away from looking at me. And then therefore they won't look at my work. And then no one will ever buy my books again. And then no one will ever go see the films I make, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then I will never be able to work again, which is something that's really important to me. I love working. So you see how it's tied to, just as an example, tied to like a really core fear of mine, because if I couldn't

work anymore, then I would, I I would that's not what I signed up for I'd be really unhappy in this life that I have so see how it's tied to that so why what's the next step button so what I had to do then I had to go wait okay it's write it out without judging it right without editing it and then after reading that going like we do now wait but this flies in the face of what I believe to be true in my life, which is that I get a basket of things. I get a bunch of opportunities. I get a bunch of, um, situations, um, uh, you know, with work that are for me, you know, you get, you get a bunch that are for you. Susie gets a bunch that are for her, you know, Damien gets a bunch that are for him and that can't be taken away from me.

So no matter what anyone thinks of my face, these things can't be removed from me. So I'm like, Oh, so my fears are rational. Let me ask you that. How do you get to that point when in your industry looks are important, especially if you're going to be on camera? There's this ridiculous standard that's totally unattainable by mere mortals, but women do a lot to meet it. So how do you get yourself past the point that you can still access your basket, which may include on camera work? Yeah. Well, you have to counter it with how I understand life works. That's what I counter it with. Like you'll wind up with what you should have. Yes. Regardless, regardless of my gender,

my age, any of those things, my, my future, my fate, if you will. I mean, I don't look, I'm just guessing. Maybe I'll know all this stuff, whether or not it's real when I die. But I tell you this, thinking this way makes, I like the results in my life better than imagining that all these people are right. It's proven itself out is what I'm saying. It's proven itself out. Let's take a step back just to get the audience up to speed on how we got here. Most people know you were very famous. I don't know if we can even call you a child actor. Should we call you a child actor? You started when you were what? No, I started when I was 16. So yeah, so teenage at a young age. Sure. Very, very, very successful. And on, I don't know

if it was certainly one of the most successful shows of the eighties, if not at least top three, right. Family ties. I mean, one of the most successful shows of all time for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Ever. So you get this role, you make it into something really special. You were this gorgeous sort of you played the ditzy sister to Michael J. Fox. And he was a breakout star, too. I mean, he I love the story about him that I saw not long ago saying everybody said he remained a gentleman throughout the whole thing, that even though it became this huge star, he never wanted star treatment, that he always deferred to the older actors and that NBC actually wanted to give him special billing in the opening credits of the show. And he declined, stayed the third top billing for the entire.

That's why we all love him. All right. That's why, like, we all love Michael J. Fox. So you're on that show. Huge, huge fame. If six years. Seven. Yeah.

OK. Seven years at a time. And just set the stage because at a time when there weren't 200 channels, everybody was watching one of three channels and everybody like what were the numbers on that show? Just explain how popular you got. uh, yeah, you didn't have a consumer facing internet. Um, you had, God, this is so long ago. Um, it was about, you, you'd get about somewhere between 20 to like 40 million people watching you every, every week. And it was because it was, you had to, I mean mean unless you were really good with a VCR um player you had to watch it live but yeah I mean it's definitely not that way now so yeah the fame was um was uh was big and then then I moved on from there and did like you know worked as an actress for many many years, um, doing plays and films and, uh, and then, uh, yeah, started doing other things.

And, uh, and just so the audience has a perspective, the golden globes this year got 7 million people watching it. The Oprah, Meghan Markle special Prince Harry had 17, which is considered a huge success. So this is more than double that and 17 right 17 million people would you would be on the on the what they call on the bubble you may not if you were a show back in the 80s and you had a 17 it's 17 million viewers you're probably gonna get canceled oh my gosh think about that for sure you see you for 17 and you're like, oh, shit. Oh, no, we're going to get canceled.

Yeah. It's hard to get your arms around, but it does explain what superstars people like Ted Danson were, starring in Cheers and Kelsey Grammer, Frasier and the cast of Friends. This is more in the 90s, but still the numbers were huge back then. Okay, so you're rocking and rolling and your first book was more about fame and what it's like when it starts to leave and your second book is about i love it face one square foot of skin and about aging and it's such a such a different sadly perspective you know like i, in that book fame, uh, there was that one chapter about, uh, accidentally, um, Googling my name and, uh, and seeing the autocomplete be

Jesse Bama looks old. And at the time I was like, I was like 40 and I'd always looked young for my age. And I was like, wait, what am I, am I there now? And, um, but then once I got on the other side of that, it took a while to sort of shape that interesting way. And I talk about that in the book, the one you were talking about. But then I started thinking about, like, for the new book, Faith, I started thinking, why do we even, why does society even have this position? I mean, it's just like, you know, let's say one square foot of skin on somebody's face. Like, why do they have this position that it needs to be fixed? And I didn't like the fact that we had jumped from, wow, plastic surgery.

Oh, that's so unusual. You know, it would be unusual for anyone to get it. You know, Joan Rivers was getting it. And then maybe somebody's grandma, wealthy grandma or something. Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda. But you can count them. You can, Joan Rivers was getting it. And then maybe somebody's grandma, wealthy grandma or something. Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda, but you can count them. You can count them on one hand, the ones who were sort of publicly getting it. Yes, it was it was like unusual. You know, it wasn't a consideration. It wasn't a it wasn't it didn't seem like an option, really. And then we

we just seemed to hustle so quickly over to, um, well, these are the procedures that are possible. You know, you can do Botox or you can put use filler and all this sort of thing. And then we just slammed right into, well, when, when is everyone getting it done? Not should you, but when are you going to start young? Are you going to start at 20? And I'm like, wait, what is going on? I just think it's, I just think it's insane. I think, and I think the core thought that, that motivates, um, a lot of these procedures, the core thought that, oh, there's something wrong with my face and I need, I need to fix it. I think that is a very strange idea that has now become kind of woven into the fabric of the American woman now. And I I just I just think it's worth looking at and going, hold on.

Why? Why? More with Justine in one minute on the Hollywood standards imposed on mere mortals. That's in one second. Stay tuned. I feel it. I feel the pressure to try to keep looking young, you know, in order to be attractive. One of the reasons I admire you because you're just like, man, F that. But my husband, he doesn't think like that at all. You know, he's, he's also getting some wrinkles. On men, it's considered distinguished or hot or sexy, which all of which I think it is.

And on women, it's a totally different standard. And we've accepted it. Women, we haven't fought it. In fact, we're the ones driving it. Right. I mean, that's what I, that's why I wanted to write the book. Cause I was like, why have we received this? They said like, it's a suggestion and we go, okay. And we like, you know, as if we're walking in a line, like with our hands out and they just hand the suggestion who they is. I don't know. Right. But the suggestion gets handed to us and we go, okay. And we just like, we sort of inhale it. Why? But, but, and I don't mean that to be, um, a rhetorical why. I mean, I really wanted to get in there and go, no, there's got to be some core reason. Like I was talking about earlier,

there's got to be some irrational fear that anchors that the desire to believe that the desire to believe that, you know, our faces are repulsive and we need to fix them as soon as possible. Okay. And I think a lot of the book about how, how what's valued in girls is getting your pretty card and that's your contract with society that you'll get it. You're born with it, or if not, you'll make sure you get it and you'll make sure you don't lose it as you get older. That's your contract. And isn't that weird? Like you even, you even said, you want to make sure you, you continue to look younger. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you just said, and make sure you continue to look attractive. Now, attractive is, is what if someone's attracted to you,

maybe they're attracted to your energy or your style or something like that. But we put so much emphasis on the face, make sure the face still looks attractive. Okay. Then you go, what is the face? What is the face telegraphing? Is it telegraphing, um, you know, the, the plump lips or cheeks or, you know, so you still look like you can breathe. Is it that, do you know what I mean? There's a lot of that tied into it. So then when we look at like, all right, well, let's look at it evolutionarily. Then when we're looking at a tribal level, then are the people in the tribe that can still breed, do those people then get more resources? Are the ones that can't breed, maybe they'll be left behind if the tribe moves along to another area? You know, all of these things I think are, I think some of them have been, I think they're vestigial thoughts that we still have in our brains. And I do believe it's possible to just, you know, kind of, well, this is my fear. And you'll write it out and then look at it and go, do I still think that's true? Because is there anything about the way my face is going to change that's going to prohibit me from going down to the supermarket

and buying whatever things I need, whatever resources I need? Do you know what I'm saying? So I wish we'd just look at it and go, hey, there's a lot of ideas here that don't apply to 2021. Maybe they applied to the year 1400. How do you think we got from A to B, from where it was like you could name on one hand the women who had had a facelift or plastic surgery to now where it's like expected, as you point out? I think it's science, affordability, and profits. So the methods got better, right? I mean, it used to be like when somebody got a facelift,

like you knew it. I mean, you know it now. It's all very uncanny valley, but it was super specific back then, right? It was, you know, that film Brazil, where they pull the saran wrap back on her face. Um, I don't know if you recall that film, but, um, very, it's very extreme. So we have the science and then we have affordability, you know, there's, uh, uh, I, I think facelifts are more affordable. I believe I don't know that for sure than they used to be, but also

you have all these other in-between procedures with fillers and Botox and all these things and, um, and you know, half a lift or just your eyes or just, you know, it's, it's, um, there are affordable ways to get your face cut up, let's say. and then profitability. This is big business. It's big business. Like a cosmetic company is going to make more money depending on the culture. I will say though, based on my, my interviews with people that, that work in this industry, the, um, if you're selling to America, it's going to be youth make it. So you look, you look younger, look younger, look younger. So you'll name the same product that you're selling in France and the United States. So you'll name it like age defying in France. Maybe it's just like skin enhancing.

I'm just making up phrases here, but you know what I mean? It's depending on like, what is that culture afraid of? Really? Right. And then there's a lot of a lot of money in in selling fixes to a bunch of frightened people. A lot of money. You know, it's not it. It's not just faces. Right.

It's like now people are blowing up their butts to look enormous. You're no longer allowed to let your butt sag or have a flat butt. You got to have it huge. And then you got to wear a bunch of tight leggings to show off how big your butt is. How do we get to that point? You're not allowed to have saggy skin anywhere. Megan, have you heard about the hand treatment? I think they shoot it up with fillers or something. And it's called the Instagram engagement hand or

something. Oh, Lord. So you just got married. You're going to have a picture of your ring on your hand. But oh, my dear, your hand looks like a worker hand. It's veined and you know how hands look, right? So you're going to do like, like kind of update your hand so that when you have that engagement ring picture, your hand looks like a 14 year old. I don't know. There's no limit. There's no limit to the vanity. I mean, of course I, I, my lay person assessment is it's all the fault of the Kardashians and others like them. You know, it's like social media influencers, reality television, which is anything but. And these crazy false images that are put out there for young girls to think that is how women look. True, but I think it started a bit before them. And I think if you also combine the digital recording, the high definition digital recording of films and TV too, where you see more, you're not recording on film hardly ever now, where you have like this, you know, sort of grainy richness to the film.

Seems amazing. When I was on camera, I desperately wished we were still on film. I'm sure you noticed that. Yeah, in your own work, I'm sure you noticed that. Sometimes, especially in your industry, it's like, I will not get the role if I look my age. I have no choice if I want roles in Hollywood, but to make myself look younger. That's a truism, isn't it? Well, to me, as a director, I can't really use

faces that have been altered because I'm going to get uncanny valley from my audience. And what I mean is like the audience is going to be, I want to draw them in emotionally as much as I can. I want them to be really all in emotionally. And if I'm doing anything that rings untrue in the film, either through my dialogue or the locations or behavior from the characters, they're going to maybe continue watching it, but then they'll become arm's length to the project so and one of those things is going to make them arm's length is if the if there's something wrong with somebody's face because somewhere in the core of them as a human they're going to go

something's wrong something's wrong right so i don't want that to happen. And also there's a certain type of person that changes their face. And I think there's a level of fear and insecurity that is going to come across on camera. It's going to be hard to, um, shove down on camera. And that is, so I don't really want to capture that. It's a, it's a, sadly you are in a class of one or two. Like, I don't think, I don't know your industry that well, but it just seems like these Hollywood directors or the casting agents, they, they have, as you point out in your book, this standard of beauty and all the women are clamoring to meet it in Hollywood and elsewhere. Cause it's not just the Hollywood casting folks who set this standard. It's, it's us setting it on ourselves. And I think

in your, in your industry in particular, it's very hard for women. Are you, what are you 50? How old are you? I'm 55. I just turned 55 55 and i'm 50 so it's very hard for women in our in our age range because when you're let's say under 40 you're still holding it together pretty well generally like you're whatever you i guess there's a judgment in just the way i put it but you're not really aging on your face that much and if you're over let's say 60 or 65 if you're over, let's say, 60 or 65, if you're Judi Dench, if you're a Helen Mirren, your older face can be celebrated and cast in certain roles. The queen, right? She has to have some wrinkles. But the women between 40 and 60, 40 and 65, are in this weird space.

Like, what are we? Are we young? Are we old? Are we mature? Are we, you know? And I think you see a lot less sadly of those women stars you fell in love with in their twenties. Uh, once they hit, I don't know, around our age.

I feel like there's a lot of women at this age, not, not in the entertainment business, but just in life that sort of fold into they sort of stop becoming, they stop developing as individuals, it seems to me. And they start folding into kind of what might be expected of them, what they imagine is expected of them, like certain types of older women that they're supposed to become, like the easily indignant, the, or the, the caring, you know, pre-grandmother. There's certain sort of tropes, if you will.

And I think when writers are looking around at older women, like that's a lot of what they're seeing. And so their writing, I mean, there's a lot of reasons that I don't act anymore. And one of them is that like, I like playing me so much more than I like playing any of those characters. And that's, you know what I mean? Oh, is it also because Hollywood wasn't catering to the parts you would have played that you would have leaned into?

Nah, because it started for me when I was younger. I guess what I'm saying is, when we look at women who are around that age in life, what are they doing? Like, what are some examples of what are they doing and what kind of personalities do they have? I'm just saying a lot of times writers are looking around and reflecting what's going on. And then maybe women see that in films and then reflect that in real life. And then maybe it's a chicken than the egg kind of situation. I mean, I am going to do a film adaptation of the book face, and there sure will be an, a lot of older women in that film. Let me just back up and ask you about something you said earlier, when you're saying, I can't

put somebody on screen who looks wrong. Right. And for the women who are out there who have had surgery on their face or Botox, I mean, I've had Botox, but filler, you know, up to the eyeballs and so on. You know, they would say it's not wrong. It's a personal choice. It's no different than wearing makeup or doing your hair. You know, you don't like, you're not satisfied with the way you look when you wake up in the morning and therefore you make an effort to look what you would consider, quote, your

best. And is it really so much a far afield of wearing makeup and getting your hair done and wearing a nice outfit to then have a nip or a tuck or a filler or Botox or what have you? Right. And I, I, I, you know, explore that in a couple of the stories that position. So let's say the root fear is as I get older, no, people aren't going to want to work with me anymore. Okay. So then you change your face. You, you haven't attended to that fear. I would have just staved it off temporarily. Maybe you haven't even staved it off. You still, so now you've got, for me, if I were to do anything to my face and let's say

that was my fear and I, and I did something to my face, then instead of having one problem to deal with, I would then have two problems. Now I've changed my face, which for me personally isn't something I want to do, and I still have that fear. So what if somebody attended to that fear, and after attending to that fear, they still want to change their face? Then fine. But I feel like every time I'm challenged with, you know, like I get a button push, I have an opportunity to become bulletproof and I am not going to push off any of those opportunities because like, I don't have that much time. I mean, I want, I want, I want the time I have here to be, um, more free. Um, so yeah. So have you gotten there though? Like, have you, do you feel like

you you've gotten to the bulletproof place? Cause that, what I remember is you talking about the pain of entering your name, Justine Bateman, in the Google search and seeing the autofill come up with something like Justine Bateman looks old or it was something not nice and just how painful that was for you. So and you are you won't you're not changing your face. You're not doing the things you're aging, like a normal person. It's somehow it's newsworthy, but you're aging like a normal person. So what was it just soaking in all of that negativity, like looking at all the criticism and then just keeping on keeping on? Like, how did you get from A to B from the pain of that moment to now? It wasn't a pain, which was the curious thing to me. It wasn't a pain. It was a, it was confusion.

Basically it was, I didn't know what they were talking about. I mean, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I just had never been. I like amazing. No, I was just like, I'd never even really thought about, you know, I was just like accepted as as, quote, attractive to this society's standards, whatever. So I'd never been attacked in my face and I was just like, wait, what? So it was confusing to me. And then as I go in the book, I had a choice to make. I could either make them wrong and me right, or them right and me wrong. And because, and this was a while ago, because I was still, I was dealing with like the fame going, there was something about making them right and me wrong that kept just a little bit of, well, they're all talking about me, so it's a little bit famous. It's almost like being the fat kid in the third grade. It's like you let them call you fatty, and they're like, hey, we're just kidding.

We're just kidding. And you get to be with them and hang with that gang if you let them call you fatty, if you reject that idea, you're like, I don't want to play that part. All right, well, then you're not part of the gang. And you're going to be eating lunch by yourself. So it was that kind of choice for me. And, and that was a big mistake for me because it, it brought in that those criticisms. It really planted those criticisms in me. And it took me a while to get that off of myself. But that, again, that was a while ago. And that was something in the last book.

You went into life, what you say, looking forward to aging. You thought there was something kind of cool exotic sexy about the women you saw who were older like these cool french ladies yeah so it was basically society that started to take that away from you in that moment where you saw the kelly it wasn't even society it was these people online it was these people online it was these message boards online and uh you know you empowered them you empowered them by putting them in your own head i received it because it it it um it suited something i was looking for at that time that had nothing to do with my faith. There's actually an ode to them in one of the stories. Wait, there's a story.

I'm going to get the name for you. There's a story about a very famous actress, way more famous than I ever was. Let's call it like a Julia Roberts level actress, okay? I'm not saying this about Julia Roberts at all, but let's say that level of fame, okay? And it's chapter eight, and her name's Donna. Oh, yeah. This is the 48-year-old who went to her reunion. Exactly. She goes to her high school reunion, and all these people are saying things about her. There's a batch of women that say a bunch of things about her. And then there's a batch of men that say a bunch of things about her. And these are things that were said about me. So if people want to read some of the stuff that is it about me they can read that eighth

story in the book's face um yeah that's my ode to all those all those little assholes right exactly well whatever you know it's yeah yeah just going to say, can we just spend a minute on why it's different for men? You know, I mean, you, you have a very famous brother who I grew up watching on Little House on the Prairie, but now he stars in Ozark and all sorts of different things. that was where I fell in love with him he was with my friend Melissa Francis he played Melissa Francis that's right and he had his bowl cut his like prairie cut haircut yeah it was appropriate for the setting it sure was

so he men are allowed to age in Hollywood and in life they are like I was saying about my husband Doug I mean Doug he has no vanity. So even if he weren't, quote, allowed to, I just can't see him ever doing anything. But women are raised to be more vain, I think, right from birth. So how do we wind up in the place where, and I don't presume to know anything about your brother's approach to surgery, just saying that the difference is stark.

And so how are we at that point where I realize some men are vain. Some men do feel the need to get a nip or a tuck, even in my business, even in media. I definitely know some men who've had hair plugs put in or have had that major jowl thing that happens underneath the male chin fixed. And Botox for sure. I mean, people can see that with their own eyes when they watch the television screen, but I just, I really don't, other than what you say in your book about women needing the pretty card and society deeming pretty to look young, why doesn't it apply to them? Why, how, how can we be more like them in this way? There's a lot of things that guys do that. I, uh, want to be more and more and more like, because I think there's a lot of things that, okay. Like, um, uh, like someone says, uh, uh, can you do this job? Do you have these skills? And they go, yeah, sure. You got the women going, well, I, I know

some of Excel. I don't know all of Excel. I don't know. You know, and the guys were like, yeah. And they're like, oh, excuse me. I don't know if we can cuss on here. Um, okay. They're like, I'll just figure it out. I'll just figure it out. Um, and, um, and just like, I don't know, look, I'm, I'm speaking very generally, you know, there's lots of men that are more neurotic about stuff like that. But, um, I find that men more so than women don't sweat the small shit. They just kind of like, well, is there some way to solve this? Let's just do it. You know? Um, and I'm speaking, you know, probably too generally, but anyway, yeah. And one of the things is like not being concerned about their faces. Now I think, I think a lot, again, I think a lot of this is tied to evolution, is tied to procreation, is tied to, let's say there's a parent who

looks at his daughter. I'll just keep it to women since we're saying guys don't necessarily do this. But, you know, say a mother looks at her daughter and her daughter's not really, you know, brushing her hair and she's, you know, her face is kind of, uh, she's not being put in any makeup on or anything. And, you know, she just kind of, I don't know, maybe she's got some dirt on her face or she marked her face with a pen by accident when she was drawing or something like this. And the mother might say, you know, Ellen, you know, get yourself put together. You look a wreck, you know? Now, why is this being said? Is it, oh my God, is it, is there some vestigial fear, like just in the human that is concerned that the daughter won't

find a mate and then what will become of her. Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying we think of these things consciously, but even the whole idea of when you see somebody's little girl, you haven't seen them for a while and you're like, oh, and this is my daughter. I don't think it matters.

Oh my God, she's two years old or she's a year old or whatever. And you go, oh my God, she's so pretty. She's so pretty. Now, if you were to not say that, you'd create a little elephant in the room. You'd say like, oh wow, that's great. Congratulations.

Right now, immediately somebody, the parents, there's something is gonna like, you've raised a flag in their head. They're like, oh wow, I should say she's pretty. Like, there's something is going to like, you've raised a flag in their head. They're like, oh, wow, she's pretty. Like, that's weird. We went to my daughter's all-girls school, which is amazing. It's a wonderful school. Too woke for my taste, but a wonderful school.

And they produce these super smart, strong young women who I admire a lot. And when we went to the school, we went to one of those parent nights where you go and they put on a panel of existing parents at the school and they tell you about the school. And there was this one guy who got up there and he's talking about his daughter and she's at this amazing all-girls school and she turns out super accomplished. And the guy stands up and literally like the first thing he said about his daughter when he was describing her to us, she wasn't there, was, you know, my daughter's a whatever grader and she's beautiful. She's so pretty and whatever came next. And I remember thinking like, oh my God, it's so jarring. In no world would any dad

stand up talking about his son and say, my son is so good looking. He's so handsome. Wouldn't happen. What now? What would he say? What would you say? My son has a, you know here's his gpa and he has these accomplishments and you know he's a confident young man yep but you know because if you say something like that or if you say that you're trying to set somebody else up on a date you know some guy and you say oh you gotta meet my friend jenny you know she has a great personality and then he's immediately like why why why is she. That's code for ugly. Totally.

It's just an interesting thing to contemplate. You know, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what the fix is there or anything, but it's an interesting thing. For more of us to get unattractive, lean into our unattractiveness. I mean, really, it's like I watch you refusing to do anything to your face and letting yourself age gracefully, naturally. And I think, yes, that's the solution. I want that to happen for my daughter.

And I think, okay, so stop getting Botox. And I'm like, fuck that. I can't get myself out of it, Justine. Up next, we're going to talk about what the messaging should be to children when it comes to appearance, right? How many times have you heard about a young girl? She's such a pretty girl. That's like the number one thing.

So pretty. Well, what does that mean? Should we be doing that? Is that sexist? Is it damaging? More importantly, she's got some thoughts and it's interesting what she said to her own daughter, how she handled it. But before we get to that, we're going to bring you a feature called Asked and Answered.

And that's where Steve Krakauer comes in, our EP, with a question from one of you all, y'all, and I'll hopefully give an answer. Hey, Steve. Hey, Megan. Yes, this comes to us from questions at devilmaycaremedia.com and from Max Wilson, who worked in local TV news for a decade. And he has a question about the legacy media. Will they ever recover from COVID-19? What a financial mess they're in. Make no mistake, the legacy media is in real trouble because how are they ever going to get their workers to return to work to their massive studios? They better threaten them, right? I mean, that's what's going to have to happen. Here in New York, some of the bankers are doing that. Like, hey, you want to come back and earn your New York money? Great. No problem. Get down to the building. You can't you cannot work remotely from Oklahoma where prices are one tenth what they are

in Manhattan and expect us to pay you the same amount. And listen, there are certain bodies that kind of have to be in studio. And we've seen that. So they're going to have to go back and probably already are. And certain people don't have to be there. And I think there's nothing wrong with letting those people continue to work remotely. But I don't see the legacy media going out of business because of COVID. If anything, they're going to go out of business because of cord cutting and how, you know, media has just changed in general to a much younger, more dynamic way of consumption. You know, you can have it on your phone. You can watch your favorite show on your way to work while you're driving your car.

You don't need to sit around waiting until nine o'clock to watch your favorite anchor. You can see him or her whenever you want. But I do think in general, like especially here in New York, which is the hub of media, there's so much fright over COVID that it's going to take a while before they get people back in these buildings. You know, they've been led to believe that they can get it from touching desks, which really has not turned out to be true. And so until we sort of collectively lower the moral panic that is still lingering over this city like a hangover, it's going to be tough for these employers. And I don't think it's good. I don't think it's good for so many

people to be in their houses by themselves working all day. You got to get out. You got to see other people. You got to interact with other human beings as much as we dislike them. I think we have to do it, don't you? Every once in a while, you need to see other humans. So I hope that happens. I think that'll happen just as soon as New York gets on its way to recovery. As for the bias in mainstream media, that's their problem. Good luck. Thank you for the question. And what's the address? I always forget the address, Steve. Where do they, where do they contact us? Questions at devilmaycaremedia.com. Okay. Why don't you do the toss?

That's Justine Bateman right after this. When I was in my 20s, my goal was to, you know, I thought, oh man, when I'm old, I want to look like Georgia O'Keeffe. And I'll never get there if I do anything to my face, I'll derail my goal. So there's no way. And, and also like, I just feel like it's, it's one of the most defiant things I can do. I mean, it sounds so ridiculous, but you're right. Like I am somebody that people are drawn to. Let's just say that because of my face, because I have a pretty face. What if attractive just means people are drawn to you because you're magnetic or you're confident you have something they want.

I don't mean like, you know, like they want to use you. I mean, like they, whatever you've got going on, they wish they had that going on. Right. No, like I hate it. This is a weird turn. Very weird. Forgive me. But I'm thinking about Bill O'Reilly. The reason I'm thinking about Bill O'Reilly is because in the media industry, for a long time, he was the biggest star. Certainly one of them and definitely the biggest star in all of cable and had the number one show in all of cable for like almost 20 years. Now, Bill is not a particularly attractive man. He has nice blue eyes. I'll give him that. And I think Bill would be the first to say this about himself. He used to be pretty self deprecating about his himself and his looks. No one cared. He became a huge star because he was

a great television presenter. He knew how to spin a really interesting story, how to condense information in a very compelling way. He had strong opinions. He used humor. There were all sorts of reasons why he was such a success. And he didn't have to be attractive and he didn't really care. He wasn't the guy who had all the surgery. And I admired that. I, you know, I, I can see, I can see other people doing it and we need more, we need more women doing it. Okay. But it's scary. Wait, now let's take that example. Knowing now I'm going to assume a lot of things about Bill. I don't know Bill, but this is, which is you, Bill is, you know, quote unquote, Bill as an example. Okay. Successful Bill, right? Yeah. Okay. Knowing that he couldn't use his looks,

he developed other ways to attract viewers. Now let's, let's, what if we went to all the ladies and we said, you're going to do all of your broadcasts with a bag over your head. So you will have to develop other ways to attract viewers. Do you think if that was the case, or if they even thought that was the case, if they operated like that, that we would have,

we would be attracted to some of these broadcasts? Do you think the women would develop more complex and interesting ways to get viewers? Oh, shit. Yes. I don't know. I do. I know I do.

And I think to your points, it applies beyond broadcasting, too, that what if we were more rich, more layered, more interesting beings. I always used to joke, Justine, that skirts and high heels were men's way of holding women back. It was a joke, but kind of a grain of truth. And what if this whole narrative is a way of, it's not just men, but like men and women holding women back? What if we, what if we could be more of a kaleidoscope? What if we could be more layered if we weren't so obsessed with the, with the face, this one square foot of skin, as you say? Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I don't, I don't want to lay all that on men because I think women are, I think, I think it's like split between women and men as to who

who's like you know trying to convince suzy that you know she should get her face changed or that there's something wrong with or something i think for the men it has a lot to do with how they are going to be perceived by other men so if a man has a frumpy wife, then do his friends then think less of him? But if he has a wife that looks like, has an aspirational look to her or whatever, do they go there like, hey, Joe, how'd you snag Katie? She's amazing looking. Whoa, dude, what did you do to get her? So it elevates who he is, what kind of person he is, right?

Meanwhile, his looks don't do the same, right? Vanity in a man is still not attractive. I think we haven't crossed over to where, you know, you see a man who's like too Botoxed and like too obsessed. Like, I'm sorry, you don't have to comment on this, but like Chris Cuomo putting out the videos of him lifting the weights and trying to look super tough and muscly. That stuff I think is still generally unattractive in society. And yeah, that's so they've been saved from a place on a, on a news show either.

But like, yeah, let's get into that. Okay. I'll say this. I will say this in my experience, very attractive women and very attractive men are far less. They are far less interesting personalities, generally speaking in my experience than people who are not. And I do think that's because people who are not. And I do think that's because people who are not instead focused on becoming interesting people. Were you okay now you but you and I let me ask you about it because I think you and I have had had a different experience because you you talk about in your book how you grew up

pretty. I did not grow up pretty, which was a blessing for the very reasons you're talking about. I had to develop other skills. I was not an attractive child. I really pretty much looked like a boy for the first 12 years of my life. And then I just looked like a chunky, acne-ridden teenager with a weird space between my two front teeth, which I later had fixed. That's my experience. It wasn't until I got to high school that I was like, maybe if I made an effort, I could

get the social ch shit of being attractive. Like that would, I think it would help me. But by the way, not for nothing, but I was voted the most popular girl in my eighth grade class when I was still unattractive. I was still unattractive and I have the pictures to prove it. So I had the experience of like work, the other skills, like, you know, how the blind man is a great listener. Right. I, I, I got there. So, so how did you get so complex, you know, having the pretty girl experience? But I wasn't, I don't know if it was like the schools I was going to or the cities I lived in or something like that. There was just no emphasis on it. I mean, I guess I would just, you know, I guess it was one of those things where, well, like I said earlier, like, you know, you meet like your parents, friends and they go, Oh, she's so what a pretty

girl or something. I don't know. I guess I was just like, Oh, okay. I guess I'm pretty. I don't know. I didn't, I didn't, um, my friends didn't emphasize it. I w I didn't go to schools where, um, where there were sort of, I mean, if there were, if there were mean girls, it was like, I don't know, everybody was just sort of kind of mean to each other in that school way where you just like, like you said, you know, the house you grew up in or something like that. I don't know. I guess I just didn't go to schools where there was like an emphasis on it on but you were in holly popular girls and stuff no no see it wasn't until it wasn't until i got on a show that there was so at 16 so i was developing myself as a person, like all up until I still did at 16, but it wasn't until I was 16 that it

started being, it started getting, there started being a focus on, on my face. Like, you know, Oh, Justine Bateman gorgeous, or she's so beautiful or whatever. And I was like, Oh, okay. I mean, I was just like, it didn't really, it was just like a, it seemed like this matter of fact thing that they were, um, enlarging. One of the reasons I, we talked on NBC when I was there and it was about your first book, you were honest about what it's like when that starts to fade. And I do think you would say now the fading was a blessing. It wasn't enjoyable while starts to fade. And I do think you would say now the fading was a blessing. It wasn't enjoyable while it was happening. And you realized maybe you couldn't get the reservations you used to be able to get, but like net net, wouldn't you say, I don't know,

would you say it's a blessing? I'll tell you what's a blessing is my ability to process the experience. That's the blessing. Yeah. I mean, I say that in the book, like I say, like, I have a privileged life. The privilege I'm referring to is that process, being able to, having those tools. And that's one of the reasons I wrote that book is like through this explanation. I mean, you know, that book fame was for a lot of reasons. One of them was, you know, just sharing how I process the things. And because I've had so much success with that particular method, I just wanted to like, hey, if this will help anyone else, you know, use it.

You're married, yes? Yeah. and you have two kids yeah how old are they 18 and 17 and you have a daughter yeah so with her is your messaging kind of along the lines of what we've been talking about I think about it with my daughter because I do think she's pretty and I think it's a compliment and I think my boys are beautiful too and I tell them as well so I try to keep sort of daughter because I do think she's pretty and I think it's a compliment. And I think my boys are beautiful, too. And I tell them as well. So I try to keep sort of equal. And I try to not make it number one with my kid, you know, my daughter especially. But, you know, sometimes you're just overwhelmed by the beauty of your child's face. And even if a kid's not that cute, you see it, right? You see a beautiful face looking back at you. So how did you balance trying to raise a daughter who wasn't too focused on this with what I assume is your natural gravitation toward what you thought was

a beautiful face? I have a lot to say about that. So let me truncate it or summarize it. First of all, when I was a kid, when you were a kid, we had only the people in our world to compare to to compare to or to be to be compared to right the people at your school and it gets a little wider as you get older right the people maybe in your town all right and then as you get older and you go out into the workforce and everything then it's like the people in your city or the people in your industry. Okay. And if you're in the, you know, entertainment business and you got, you know, you're being compared with a lot more people, but now a 13 year old who in the past would just be comparing herself to other people at her junior high school or her middle school is now on Instagram comparing yourself with,

and you know, back then, okay, we had the fashion magazines, of course, but they were removed from us. They were, you know, there were, these were people who, you know, these women that were, you know, lived in New York or Milan or Paris. And they were in these photos that were so removed from our situations, even getting pictures taken in front of the Taj Mahal or some, you know, nightclub in Berlin. Or, I mean, it was just like it was so separate. Or you knew it was a model. You knew it was a model. And it was a model.

And these were seriously models. They weren't, quote, Instagram, like self-proclaimed Instagram models. They were real models. Like there was a, there was a, you know, there were a lot of, a lot of competition they had to beat out to get that. They were beautiful for a living. They were very specific. Yeah. Okay. So now you're comparing yourself to everybody on Instagram and also with the internet, you're comparing yourself to everybody on Instagram. And also with the internet, you're comparing yourself to all the pretty women that have ever existed in all of time. Like, you know, Ted Serrano at Netflix, he had, I think, all of programming at Netflix. I'm not sure his's positioned right now but um he had a great quote once he said you know it used to be that when you released a film you

were going to compete just against the other films that were that were out at the same time is now you're competing with all films that have all the films that have ever been made right so in the same right you put a film out, it's like, well, people can choose from any, all the films that were ever made. And you know, you're one of them and the same way. That's, that's what we're doing with the look. Okay. So the first thing is I wanted her to be, I wanted when she first started looking at like Instagram and stuff like that, wanted to make it very clear to her. Like at first she was like, how do all these women, um, how are they,

how do they afford to go to all these, they must be really rich that they can go to all these places and take all these pictures and be on all these yachts and all this. And I was like, come sit on my lap. Let me tell you a story about how these women are affording to go there. So tell her things like that. Tell her about the filters. Tell her about like, you know, just outside this shot, you know, is this kind of, you know, raggedy backyard that this woman has, you know,

right. It's staged. So show, you know, making, you know, pop that bubble, you know, of, of all of that stuff. And then just, and then the selfie after selfie, after selfie, after selfie, after selfie, she, you know, she has said to me, like, I, I would say like, you know, uh, oh my God, you know, why don't they just stop or whatever? And then she'd go, she'd go, mommy, they're just insecure. That's why they're doing that. Cause they're insecure. And I was like, and like, she was saying to me, like, you're being unkind because these people are insecure. And I was like, Oh, you're right. You're right for correcting me. Like I am being unkind right now too. So, so she, I don't know. She, she, she gets, and also like,

I, I try to be very, um, with both my kids, I try to be, um, I try to make a big, um, I try to focus on, make a big deal about things that they've accomplished. Things, look, you, you come in, you're putting. Look, you come in, you're put in a bag. You're born, you're put in a bag. It might be a bag of Chinese descent. It might be a very tall, darker skinned bag. You might be a very short, pale skinned bag that's female. I mean, you don't have any say. I mean, this is how it seems to me personally. You're a spirit that gets put in a bag. Okay. So is any of that an accomplishment that you have looks that are deemed, quote, pretty in this society? No. But the things that you set out to do that then you make happen,

like that's an accomplishment. And that I feel like focusing on by people being rewarded for those things, I feel like really build their sense of who they are as a person, what they can, um, make happen as a person. And I think it's a really good way to build their sense of foundation of a person. You're awesome. You do think differently. You're not like anybody I know. It's a great line from As Good As It Gets. You're not like anybody. That's how I feel about you in a great way. Thank you for coming on. Well, thank you. And I, and I always appreciate your, um, you know, I know this is the second time we've, we've done an interview and, and I just want to tell you, I, I, I really appreciate

how, um, prepared you are, how engaging you are to talk to how prepared you are with material. And that's not as common as you would think it should be from people who do this for a living. So I just want to pay you that compliment because I appreciate that. Well, thank you. And let me I mean, I prepare for everybody because I feel out of respect. I want to, but some people are, you know, easier to do it with than others because their stuff is really interesting or just speaks to me for whatever reason. And you are definitely one of those people. So I definitely recommend the book, everybody check it out. It's called face one square foot of skin. And then don't forget to go see Justine's new movie, Violet, Violet, it's great to talk to you. You too.

Coming up on our next episode, Dave Ramsey's here. He's like one of the most popular personalities in America. He's got some thoughts on dough, finances, the national debt, and how to dig yourself out from a hell of a year. Don't miss that. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production

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