The Megyn Kelly Show - Kathie Lee Gifford on God's Importance, Regis Philbin, The Kardashians, and Her Career | Ep. 49

Episode Date: January 11, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Kathie Lee Gifford, former Today co-host and author of "It's Never Too Late," to talk about her lengthy career and the importance of creativity, centering life around God and faith, Regis Philbin the media business, grace and forgiveness, wellness and joy, The Kardashians, Kelly Ripa, and what Gifford's life is like now.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today on the program, we've got Kathy Lee Gifford, who I adore, and I know you will too. This is a woman who, back when I was at Fox news and I got the afternoon show was my first gig as a solo anchor out of the blue without me knowing her sent me bouquet of flowers. Then I got promoted to primetime and I got a huge bouquet of flowers and a nice note from her. I don't like, I don't even know her. She was just being kind out of the blue to a stranger. Then when I finally went over to NBC, she was the first one to come and

congratulate me and offer to take me out to lunch, which we then did religiously for months. And, you know, of course, there are these great booze fests at her favorite restaurant. We had so much fun. She's always looking out for me, always wishing me well, like genuinely wishing me well. And honestly, telling me behind the scenes what to watch out for, who to watch out for, and what issues I might be facing in my new place of employment. I mean, that is a friend. That is a good person. And that's how she's lived her life. She's done so much good for this world. She is a doer of good. She is somebody who focuses her life on putting out goodness into the world. And it has shown. And I think in this difficult time that our country's going through right now, you're going to find her message really refreshing. And I'll just tell you something, honestly. So we taped these intros

after we do the interview. And I had said to my team, I'm not sure, you know, given how tumultuous things are in the country right now, is this, do we need to hold this interview? You know, it could be a little lighter. This is before we taped it. Um, this is a little lighter. Maybe we should move this like a little later on to the following week or something. And we kind of all said, well, let's see how it goes and see how it feels. And when it was done, we had a conversation about how, in fact, it's the perfect conversation to be having right now. Um, when somebody on my team said, I feel lighter. And Canadian Debbie, you know, heartless, soulless Canadian Debbie actually cried. She cried saying how much better she felt. You know I kid because I love Debbie.

But we're all kind of feeling it. She has a very inspirational message. And it kind of left me feeling like, okay, we're going to be okay. And we can do better. And we must. Anyway, she's coming up in one minute and I promise you, you're going to enjoy the conversation. But before we get to her, it's the new year, as you know, finally, and many of us are ready for a fresh, clean start. That's what you're thinking about this time of year in January, no?

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healthier. Plus the shipping's fast and it's free on your very first order. So make your home healthier this new year. For a limited time, when my listeners go to grove.co.mk, that's grove.co.mk, you will get a free Mrs. Meyers gift set plus free shipping with your first order. That's a $30 value. But you gotta use our special code. Go to grove.co.mk to get this exclusive offer, grove.co.mk to get this exclusive offer, grove.co.mk. And now, my pal, Kathy Lee Gifford.

Kathy Lee Gifford, so excited to have you here. Thank you for doing this. Hello, old pal. And I don't mean old, but long time. How are you? Getting older by the second, sister, but it's fine. It beats the alternative, as they say. Yeah, OK. It's a delight to hear your voice and your laugh. And I think you're a great person to be talking to right now because I've talked to you during tough times and good times in your life and mine. And you always have a way of making me feel better.

I think it's your connection to faith and God. So let me start with the broad, broad brush question of how do we, how do we get back to that feeling as a country of that feeling of community, of being united? Although, you know, not necessarily an ideology, but just not hateful toward one another. Toward wellness instead of constant hurt, anger, and pain where it feels like we've spent a lot of time lately. You know, what I learned a long, long time ago, Megan, was when I was right with God vertically, things in my life and relationships in my life and experiences in my life that went out horizontally from me were peaceful, were not full of chaos, had purpose, had design to them, had a craftsmanship to them, had a reasonableness to them. I think because we're doing everything horizontally in our own power, we're screwing absolutely everything up. And that's

everybody on every side of every aisle. When I am right with God, I'm right with the world. I treat people the way God would treat them. I think right thoughts. I'm generous. I'm loving and kind when I'm right with God. When I'm not, I don't act that way. And the world is not a better place. It all comes down to what is our relationship with God. And you know me well enough to know that I do not mean, I mean the antithesis of religion. I do not mean religion. I mean a personal walk and relationship with the loving eternal God. And that is what my life is all about. Scripture says in him, we live and move and have our very being. And if I am concentrating on him and his love for me,

and I find profound peace in knowing I am loved perfectly by him, it enables me to love other people in his name. It's as simple as that. You know, it feels like there are massive consequences to the nation becoming more and more godless. They, A, they fill the space with other things that by definition are less meaningful, but also tend to involve a lot of negative energy. And then B, as you point out, it doesn't inspire you in that vertical way,

such that those positive rays spew out horizontally and make all of your actions better. I do think there have been real consequences to the removal of faith from the public square and really, let's face it, from our personal squares as well over the past 10, 20 years? No question. No question. When we think that we know better than God, we've made ourselves to be God, and we are equipped for that job. I don't know about you, but I'm not equipped to be God. And I rely on him for everything. And it's not like holding on to your Bibles and your guns kind of relying. I don't mean any of that political rhetoric that we throw around as well. I mean, when I live my life according to his, not commandments, but his suggestions.

You know, God doesn't give us these so-called the Ten Commandments because he wants to control us. He could have made us robots if he wanted to control us. He gave us like a guidebook of if you do this, this blessing will follow. If you do this, you will have a good life in the land, the land I promised you. If you love, honor your mother and father. I mean, it's just, it's all, it's all perfect instruction to live a life full of peace. Jesus said in this world, you will have trouble. But then he said, but take courage for I have overcome the world. And so when we see the chaos all around you, I keep saying to myself, but this was not

a surprise to God. Sovereign God is either sovereign God or he's not God at all. God is on his throne, no matter what the television shows you. I know that God is on his throne and nothing happens without him knowing it. And if we seek him, he will heal our heart. He'll heal our land. He will heal our relationships. But if we keep going about our life without giving him his glory and his due, we will reap the consequences, not of his wrath, just of being separated from him. Hell is separation from God. That's what hell is. I think about it when I see images on our television over the past year of infighting amongst Americans

and literally fires burning. I mean, fires. You mentioned hell. Fires burning on the streets of America, at our U.S. capital and elsewhere. And it's just daunting. You know, each one of us feels like, what can I do? And frankly, I've been guilty of this too, of instead of trying to be a healing force, you get pissed off and you start firing your own rhetorical bullets, you know, and some, and in some ways that can be soothing, right? Cause somebody, people hear their worldview expressed and they sort of feel represented, but you know, in other ways that like the net net doesn't leave you feeling good. No, it doesn't. It may give you this, you know, instant gratification, but words have consequences. They go forward, but nothing goes forward more than the word of God and it never returns void.

So if I have a choice to choose life or death, I'm going to choose words of life and pass those on because it's the greatest guarantee that God's word will never return void. If you speak truth in a spirit of love, nothing wrong with telling people the truth, but make sure that you speak it in a way that is loving and your motivation behind it is to be a peacemaker. I want to be in the construction business, not the destruction business. And that's what we way too often see is people that want to tear down something that they don't like and build it with something that they would like

with no thought to who it would hurt in the process. You know, I mean, we've come so far from, you know, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Does anybody even remember who said that anymore? I think they'd be surprised to Google it. it you know we've come a gazillion miles from that and um jesus said when when the pharisees and the sadducees were trying to trick him about what's the greatest commandment what what how do i keep the law all of that stuff and jesus said love love god with all your heart and your soul and your might and basically your entire being.

And the second commandment is like it. And love your neighbor as you love yourself. Well, he did not mean the person who lives next door to you. Of course, he includes that. But our neighbor is everybody that we share our planet with. Our neighbor is every other child of God that lives out there. In other words, all of creation. But we like to pick and choose the neighborhoods we live in, don't we? I'll tell you what though, you say speak truth in the spirit of

love. And I think I can no longer do the news. I have to leave Twitter. I can't talk about the news anymore. You can't, there's no spirit of love in the news whatsoever, which has been a frustration of mine in it and why I know you, you never consider yourself as having been in the news business. You're an entertainer, your time with region, so on. And then I see why you're too kind to person. You're, you're too well positive. And well, I don't know. I think there's something about the news business that attracts us. You're too damn well, Kathy Lee. No, you know. I think there's something about the news business that attracts us dark forces. You're too damn well, Kathy Lee. No, you know what I've learned? I learned a long, long time ago, and I learned it from Billy, the friend that I, Billy Graham, that you and I've

spoken with on the air. And gee, that went more than viral. That went all over the world. Billy was very wise when he told me basically, Kathy, just keep telling people that God loves them. Let that be your message all the time. The few times that I did get caught up in something political, I regret it. I should have stayed on the message of Jesus' love, God's love for his world, for his creation, because that doesn't divide us. That unites us. Anything else has got the power to divide, but God's love heals.

God's love restores. God's love redeems. All the things we need in our world today come from one source alone. It's not going to be passed. You can't pass love in legislation. It's not going to happen on Capitol Hill. As you mentioned, you're not into organized religion at all.

But I'll tell you a story my friend, Melissa Francis, who works at Fox News, did. Oh, I love Melissa. She's a sweetheart. She's awesome. She used to star in Little House on the Prairie, which is a whole other story and an awesome one. But she told the story. She actually told it publicly, but she told me privately first that she was at her church in New York city, um, two years ago, I want to say. And there she was in the news business Monday through Friday, but on Sunday in, in church

and the priest started railing on Fox news. She's like, what is going on? I don't want this in here. I'm trying to avoid politics in this moment and go to my better angels, you know? Trying to go back to the well and get a fresh cup of mercy that you need. Yeah, that's neither the time nor the place for that kind of a message. I really do believe that. I'm not against people going to church by

any means. Church stopped meaning anything to me years ago when I didn't hear anybody teaching rabbinically, which means the true source of the scriptures, the Greek in the New Testament, the Hebrews in the Old. That's the only way I want scripture taught to me. So I go to the rabbis, and I go to Messianic rabbis to teach me. I go to Israel, and I study where these things actually happened, and I study in a geopolitical and a contextual way what was going on then. What were the Sadducees and the Pharisees? What did Jesus mean by this? Why would Jesus curse a fig tree? And when you start to learn rabbinically what all of that actually means, scriptures come to life and you get the power you need in your daily life.

I know exactly what Melissa means. I went to ABC and NBC every day for years and years and years and gave of myself as much as I could, tried to be the best performer I could be, the best friend to anybody that I worked with. That was my mission field. I wasn't a missionary to Africa. I was a missionary at NBC and at ABC. And countless lives were changed as a result of it. And people used to say to me, how can you call yourself a Christian and be, you know, I go,

because that's where God's called me to go love people. Where would you have me go? I'm going to go where God tells me to go. And I, you know, I want to get a t-shirt made. I'll give one to you, but when I get it done, I'm so sorry, but I think you're confusing me with someone who thinks that your opinion matters to me. It doesn't matter.

I already have that T-shirt. It just has S-T-F-U on it, and it communicates in a shorter form. It works for me. All right, so now let me ask you this. Just in the past couple of months, you've released a book called It's Never Too Late. And you have released your movie that you were working on when we were working together shortly after you left NBC and during called Then Came Yous during Craig Ferguson, who's quite dreamy. Yeah. Oh, I love him. very busy. That's very clear. You've been doing a lot. And I know you've got a gazillion other books and projects coming out, but I loved the beginning of the book because you, you talk about labels and how you're at a point where they could define you. If you let them saying right now, at this point in my life, I'm 67. You say I'm a widow. I'm an empty nester. God forbid saying it

out loud. I'm a senior citizen and I'm alone for the first time in my life, right? Cause your kids are off. So when I read you sort of frame it up that way, because I just know you as this like kick-ass professional woman who's constantly go, go, go, go going. Um, I thought, how's that going? Right. When you think about it that way alone for the first time in your life, how's that going? You know, I've never been so happy as I am right now. Honestly, if you would have told me the age of 67, living in a brand new place after all these years, my husband gone for five years, my kids, you know, married now, bless them and, and living on, you know, actually my daughter and her husband have moved here to Tennessee and her husband. So I'm, I get to see them a little bit more because, you know,

they're newlyweds and always need something. But, and Cody, I'm praying one day he and his beautiful wife Erica will, you know, whatever. I just want them to live their lives. I have a life every morning that is so filled with joy, with projects, with friends who, there's always music in my home. There's always that meeting yesterday on like three different films that I'm producing right now. Some of them with my son, seeing new people moving into Tennessee, many of them from California,

because the, you know, the lifestyle in California is, is, is no longer paradise out there. So people that, I mean, there is, nobody has like jam fest every single night, anywhere in the country that I know of, except for right here in Tennessee. Every night, somebody's at my house playing piano or guitar or, or writing or work. So it's constant creativity. I was surrounded in one of the most beautiful places in the world in Greenwich, Connecticut. But my neighbors were tended to be, you know, people in the tech world, people in the financial world. And those people don't usually want to come over

and play guitar and write songs with me. I could write all day long and all night with the amount. And they're brilliant. So, you know, if we're created in the image of God, and I believe we are because scripture says so, then we are to be, we're at our happiness when we are also creating. I had a little children's book out this year as well

called Hello Little Dreamer about how God places his dreams in our little beings, even as we are being formed in our mother's womb. And I know that's true because I came out of my mother's womb with a pratfall and a rim shot and a let's put on a show attitude. God made me that way for a reason. And I am happiest when I'm doing those things. And then I'm happiest when I'm doing those things for his glory, like the oratorios and things that I'm writing now. I have a one and a half hour one that will be hopefully released during Holy Week coming

up at Easter time. You've been prolific in your songwriting, starring on Broadway, now making films. And one of the things that stood out to me, and I actually didn't know this from your book, was one of the Broadway shows that you did was called Under the Bridge. And you write about how you saw an interesting pair sitting in the audience, very chummy and getting along. Can you tell us about that? Yes, yes. This was opening night off-Broadway at a little theater called Zipper, which is no longer there, sadly, but it was just fun and just really, really low, low, low down and fun. And I'm in the audience with my family for and I look over, and there's Donald Trump sitting next to Rosie O'Donnell, and Mel mine at the time, both of them. You don't have

to believe the way I believe to be my friend, Megan. I've taken so many trips to Israel with people that don't believe what I believe, either politically or spiritually, but they're beautiful people and I love them. And I've always felt that our common ground in life is sacred ground. It just is. If we can find some common ground that we share as human beings, that's the beginning of something sacred. And that's what the word holy means. Holy means set apart for sacred use. I love that. And something holy comes out of just loving people and not stop insisting that they've got to mirror your every thought. But where did it turn out to be tolerant to be canceling people? That's the antithesis of tolerance.

Right. You've lived a life of forgiveness. I mean, this must be completely antithetical to you, this unforgiving nature. Yeah. It's the exact opposite of the way Jesus lived his life. And he's the only person that I follow completely, that never lied to me, that never let me down, that has always lived the life that I want to emulate myself. I can't, of course, I'm not God, but he lives inside me. And so we choose, we make heroes out of human beings.

And that's our biggest mistake. You know, when people make me a hero, I'm uncomfortable with it. I always say, no, no, no, no, no. I'm the way I am because look over there. Look over there. See that guy? Look to him. Look to him.

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You know, there's no more grace. There's no more, you know, humanity with a shoulder shrug. It's been thus from the beginning of time it isn't a new phenomenon to see people try fail be imperfect make mistakes do stupid things take risks that don't work out whatever it is only now have we morphed into this very strange place of what is required is perfection of moral character and moral characters defined by somebody else. They don't keep the same standard for themselves. They want perfection from me and from you, but they don't live perfect lives in order they think that they should.

That's the ultimate and almost, it's not hysterical, but the hysterical hypocrisy of it all. That they can't see that. And it comes from every side. Every side. And it would break my heart if my heart wasn't so full of love for people. It would, because hurt people hurt people. And when I'm tempted to hate in response to people who hurt, I'm reminded by the one who was hurt for me on a cross in Jerusalem 2000 and some years ago.

You know, that God sent his son to die for me. His perfect son died for me and for you, Megan. You and I have talked a lot about this. And for everyone he has ever created so that we could learn where to take our hurt. We take him to the one who, although he is perfection, if he were to appear to us today, you would still see the scars. The scars will never disappear. Ours do, but not his. When we were together at NBC, the audience should know Kathy Lee was so good to me. She was the best person there to me and asked if we could do a lunch once a week.

And I, of course, was thrilled for the invitation. And we did that for weeks on end and had way too much wine and delicious food. And those were really special moments. And I do think back on that now, because you won't be surprised to hear, I do have many negative feelings about my time at NBC, but I also have a lot of wonderful, wonderful memories. You're one of them. And just your friendship. And I do think about it, Kathie Lee, because we talked about faith a lot,

and forgiveness. And I know you've lived it. You know, you write about that and the whole Frank being set up and he had an affair and one night stand with a woman, but it was all set up by a tablet. Now he did it, but you don't deny that. But anyway, the point is if you wanted to be bitter, you could be bitter. And we talked about not being bitter. And I tell you, ironically, you, my friend from NBC, have been somebody whose words have helped me not become bitter in the wake of I tell you, ironically, you, my friend from NBC have been somebody whose words have helped me not become bitter in the wake of that exit. Um, yeah, you know, it's, I don't have the greatest feelings over some of our old colleagues, but if you hold onto that, and not do the lie, but it's not, what's the saying that, that, that, that, um, acid

corrodes the vessel in which it's held more than the subject on which it's poured? Something like that, Mark Twain. I've never heard it put that way, but I've always said that forgiveness hurts the person who can't forgive far more than the person who needs the forgiveness. I think I used the concept with you when I was on about Billy, which is about that sin is the, what is it? It's the cancer. It's the carcinogenic of the soul, you know, the malignancy of the soul. That's the word I use. And we all have malignancies in our souls that need to be surgically removed. They just do, or they will kill us. And the worst is unforgiveness. The worst. Okay. But let's talk Turkey. How, how, how have you managed it? Right. I know in the book and in

our lives, you've told me about the Howard Stern thing. That's one thing, the Frank thing that I, I love the way you write about it. I mean, that's a weird thing to say, and you're talking about an infidelity, but look, a lot of marriages have suffered it. And you say you realized that the person you love most can hurt you the most, right? Like that's the vulnerability and the risk of loving. Yeah, they have the most power to hurt you. Yeah. You know, you write in the book about how one year you get accused of running this sweatshop by some activist who was looking to shut down your your charity.

You were giving all of your money to babies with AIDS, trying to find them housing. The next year, the thing happens with Frank or some tabloid, some sick tabloid pays a woman seventy five thousand dollars to seduce your husband. Women of the world. Can you imagine? So what does that version of you look like? And how do you pull yourself up out of that kind of despair? Well, it's always moment by moment you do. You look to the source of all healing. And if I'd stopped believing in God and stopped believing that he had a purpose for everything in my life, even sweatshop accusations, even infidelity, that God could bring beauty out of the ashes of my life, even sweatshop accusations, even infidelity, that God could bring beauty out of the ashes of my life and that his promises are true and he would use even this

for his glory if I would allow him to. So I will never forget when I was going through the sweatshop thing, I met with the activist and the young woman who said that she had worked in one of my so-called factories, which I never had a factory, but okay. But she said she did and made the clothes that we were selling at Walmart in America and around the world. And we met over at, I'm going to try to remember, Cardinal O'Connor's home right across the street from the church

because we thought that that would be a very, you know, good place to have this face-to-face meeting. And I prayed, of course, before I went in there and I said, Lord, Lord, I don't know why all of this is happening. It's so painful and so hurtful, but you know, you have a reason for all things. Please show me and let me show grace and let maybe she just had them put on. I don't know. But anyway, it's funny the things you remember. And as that meeting was coming to an end, I get a message, handwritten note, the Cardinal would love to meet with you privately afterwards. Would you meet him in this little room? And I said, of course, yes. I had an emotion, yes. So afterwards, you know, and I,

my heart was just racing and pounding. And I go into this little room and I'd have been, I mean, ripped to shreds for about a month and a half in the tabloids. People were calling for me to be fired, get the fire heard. Everybody just wanted to assume, yes, yes, yes, watch out. This guy stood up in Congress and accused her. It must be true. And it was also that they could get Walmart unionized. It had nothing to do with me.

They were just using me because that was the means to the end that they wanted. So anyway, I knew that. It was quite clear to me. But anyway, I went into the room. And for the first time in about six weeks, love greeted me. I am not a Catholic, but the cardinal put up out his arms to me to come in and embrace me. And he said, oh, Kathy, I am so sorry that they have hurt you so. I mean, I'd known the man for a while and he knew my heart. He says, I am so sorry.

And then he looked at me and he said, but let me tell you something. Our Lord did not change this world so much through his miracles as he did through his suffering. And if you will receive this temporary suffering that you are going through as a way to bring love and healing to the world, God will use your suffering for good. And so what happened is I got my eyes off my own pain and on the pain of people that really do suffer in sweatshops around the world. Not that I run, but that other people do.

A sweatshop cannot exist without greed and need. One person's greed and another person's desperate need. There you have the makings of a sweatshop. I've never said it that way before, but I wish I had. I wish I'd put that in the book because that's exactly what it is. And I set out, along with Frank, to alleviate that. We got legislation passed. I met with President Clinton down in Washington at the White House once a month for the next year with Labor Secretary Rice and everybody else.

And I'm not a political animal. That's the last place I wanted to be. On McCaffrey's third birthday, I was down there. And I had to rush home to have her birthday party in our backyard, you know? And at times like that, it's happened so many times in my life where I go, what am I doing here? I'm an entertainer. What am I doing in the Rose Garden making a speech, you know? Why do I testify in front of, you know, Congress? But the same thing then happened the next year with Frank when he was just so cavalier about what he'd done once he knew I'd forgiven him. He just thought, well, all right, let's get back to life.

And he didn't realize how damaged and hurt my heart was. And so I was going to counseling for that. And this very fine man who had given us actually our premarital counseling many years earlier said, Kathy, if you can't forgive your husband, forgive your children's father. And once again, it took my eyes off my own suffering. And it got them on what was right, which was save my children's father. Save my children's lives. Save this marriage. Save this family. We love one another. We are doing good in this world. I am not going to let the evil one destroy my marriage. I'm not going to let the evil one destroy my walk with eternal God because of these injustices. Once I got my eyes on the right thing, what am I calling you to be and do,

Kathy? First, what am I calling you to be? And out of our being comes our doing. And again, it was getting right vertically. I do think when you go through turmoil, if you keep your eyes open, God places little angels along the way to help you. And if you're just open-minded, you see them. And it comes unexpectedly. I mean, I am just thinking as you're talking about when I left NBC and all the papers were saying terrible things about me and online, it was just so vitriolic and awful. And, um, people were calling me a racist and it was like, oh my God, what's, what is going on?

And I, I walked into my apartment building and one of my doormen, his name's Solomon, he's black. He saw me and he goes, Hey, he goes, just so you know, I still think the world of you. KLG. I know. I can still cry about it. It's like just these little moments where you're like, okay, I'm okay. You know, like people, some people can still see.

Because if you were a racist, he would have known it. Of all people. Yeah. Hello. And I do think, you know, that's the kind of situation that can make you angry and hold harbor resentment. But now in the wake of what we've seen, you know, since then, this wave of cancel culture and people being shown no grace for either legitimate mistakes or made up mistakes. I've kind of looked at it a different way. Like maybe in the way you became a warrior against sweatshops after being wrongly accused. I, it's not that I've become an activist exactly, but I do speak out against cancel culture. I am

open-minded to allegations of sexism and racism and all of it. We haven't solved those problems, but I also, right. But I, but I also stand really firmly against the elimination of grace and the summer, um, last summer was last summer. I got, I started getting the weirdest things started to happen as people started getting canceled left and right, especially young people, teenagers, their parents started reaching out to me and I started talking to a lot of them and trying to help them understand what's going on in the country right now and trying to chart a course of just setting their lives straight, like steadying the ship so they could get through the controversy and then sort of trying to come

up with a good plan to reemerge on the other side once the country's reclaimed its mind. Right. Like once we've gone back to the loving people we once were. How many kids committed suicide because somebody canceled them, you know, canceled their life? It's, you know, because we have allowed our culture to determine who we are, to define us. And if I had let the world define me all the years that I have been in it, instead of letting my self-worth come from what God says about me, you are precious to me. I love you.

I sent my son for you to show you how to have life abundantly and life eternally. I wrapped you in a robe of righteousness. I put a ring on your finger. I betrothed you as my own. I mean, if you really believe that in your heart, there is nothing the world can say about you that you will ever believe. Because Satan is the father of lies. And the biggest lie is that you don't matter, that you are nothing, that you don't count in this world. Nothing is a bigger lie from the pit of hell than that. Every human being is precious. You've never been content to just sit back and enjoy some of this joy and good heartedness that you've helped create in yourself with some help from above. But I mean, you've prioritized your own wellness and joy. I've known that about you, but you've never been content to just sit back and sort of say, nailed it, right? Like you left Regis and Kathie Lee. Never, never.

You left Regis and Kathie Lee at its height. You were still killing it in the readings. This is huge, huge success. You left your show on NBC, same. I can relate to this just a little because when I left The Kelly File, it was the number one show in all of cable news. And you have something in your book saying people think you're crazy or incredibly ungrateful when you walk away from that kind of success. You say, I was neither. Artists die on the vine unless they are creating. And I had already squeezed every ounce of creative juice I had out of my 15 amazing years. I love that. I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd call myself a creative person, but I, I agree that if you're not doing something new, building new muscles, trying new things, something more than just those skills will atrophy something inside of your spirit starts to atrophy. You've been so good about not letting that happen. Because my soul that is rotting and I, and I won't allow it to happen. I mean, I, each time I was, you know, making tons and tons of money and, and not just for myself, but I take care of a whole lot of people with that money. And it's crazy.

The number of charities that she's involved with, I just want the audience to know, we could do the entire day on the amount of money that Kathie Lee has given away, the number of houses she's built and charities she's funded. You don't talk about it that much, but I know this is true.

You use that money for a lot of good. And so I have to thank you, honey. But I have to weigh, well, Lord, if you are truly leading me to Nashville, if that's the way, then Lord, your job is to take care burdened that I am not in your perfect will anymore. And I, as an artist, and in the culture, the chaotic culture of the Northeast for 35 years or 40 years I've been there now, it was killing me. Megan, it was killing me. And once Frank was gone and the kids had moved away and I'm in this beautiful, the most beautiful home, but it was killing me. And once Frank was gone and the kids had moved away and I'm in this beautiful, the most beautiful home.

But it was like a morgue to me. And there's a line in the movie, then came you, I say to her, Annabelle says to her husband's ashes, I love you, Fred, and I always will. But I got to make new memories or the old ones are going to kill me. And I'm not ready to die. Not yet. I love that line. I saw that. I love that line. I've got to make new memories

or the old ones are going to kill me. It goes back to my fundamental advice to pulling yourself out of the depths, which is get off the couch. Get out there. Just start doing something. Be proactive about it. get off the couch, get out there, just start doing something, right? Just something new or something, just something other than the couch. And I feel like you stretching your wings here, spreading your wings here and going down to Nashville, going back to your music roots, you know, trying a new life out in your, you know, mid sixties when you moved down there, it's really pretty damn brave. It really is.

It's pretty damn brave. And it's a great city for you, given all the, you know, the music and what we've talked about. Do you... No, it made total sense. Yeah. Do you... Like, now when you look back at leaving Regis and Kathie Lee and leaving the Today Show, does it feel like they were both the right decisions?

Oh, I've never regretted either one ever, ever total, total, total peace about it. Um, always have. And, uh, and God led me to something different each time. And, and honestly, my life here is more joyful now because it's, I have so much, um, fellowship in my faith. We meet all the time as believers and not in a formal way, just that the early churches were in homes. The first believers met in homes. And those are the most intimate because you're very, very loving to one another. And you are also held accountable by one another. You can be sitting on Saturday night

walking in all nice and nice to everybody on Sunday morning, but you're not accountable to anybody there. Well, stop gripping on that. That's what I love about Catholicism. You can still go in there on Sunday, say the confession, and you're good. You're clean. You say it like it's a bad thing. I'm not putting it down. Hey, whatever floats your boat, okay? But no, I want a genuine

life, and I want an authentic one. And last I looked in the Bible, not one person retired. They all died. That's what they did. They died serving God god doing what he put them on this planet to do and that's why i write about if you've got a pulse you've got a purpose is god my pulse is i you know just racing i'm i'm on fire with you know just so many projects so many loving good things happening in my life that i just rejoice over and uh and And the Lord had given me a word from a prophet friend of mine about a year or two ago, right before. I've lived here now for two years, but he said, Kathy, you are going to wake up. The season in your life that's coming up, you are going to wake up and laugh. You will be laughing at what God has for you. And he will redeem every aspect of your life.

Everything that you have lost in this world, he is going to redeem for you. Those promises are not just for me, Megan. I wrote this book to encourage other people that God doesn't love me more than anyone else. God's promises are for everyone. Everyone. He requires that we trust him. The one thing that the scripture says that pleases God is our faith. We have to believe that what he says he's going to do, he will do for us. We can have momentary lapses, but we can't stay in an attitude of unbelief and expect God's blessing.

The blessings flow because we walk with him, talk with him, sing with him, rejoice with him, pour out our hearts to him. All the blessings flow out of relationship with him. He's not somebody we go and visit once a week in some building somewhere. He's with us every nanosecond of our lives. And all he's doing for every person who's listening right now to us, Megan, if they could just open up their heart and just say a little prayer. I'm listening, Lord. Speak to me. Not a fancy prayer.

Help me to trust you, Lord. Help me to believe in you, Lord. I'm listening, Lord. Speak to me. Not a fancy prayer. Help me to trust you, Lord. Help me to believe in you, Lord. I'm broken, Lord. Fix me, Lord. Just little heart cries. God hears heart cries. He prefers them over long, windy, boring. God gets bored with those tears. Those prayers too. You know, God knows the phonies. He knows the phonies from the sinner who's crying out and saying, forgive me, Lord, I need your help. More with Kathy Lee in just one second. I'm going to ask her about the reports that Kelly Ripa and Regis did not get along and that he was ticked off at her for not being more grateful to him for giving her the opportunity of a lifetime. And also about Regis's death and, you know, how it affected Kathy and how she dealt with it. And by the way, did you know that she's the godmother to two of

the Kardashian girls? She's going to have a little fun report on the launch of Keeping Up with the Kardashians. And I've got a story of my own. So stay tuned for all of that. But before we get to it, let's talk about security. This new year, you may be excited about the new device you got over the holidays. You get an iPad or a tablet or a phone, or you're focused maybe on your New Year's resolutions or maybe both. Well, make sure your new devices and your resolutions include one critical thing, protection. With hackers looking to steal your information, and one out of every five Americans having been affected by identity theft, you may not be as

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to a cyber safe new year. That's what we want. Save 25% or more off your first year right now at Norton.com slash MK. That's Norton.com slash MK to save 25%. So before I get back to Kathie Lee Gifford, I want to tell you, this is a feature we call Real Talk here on the show. And just a moment on these losers over at the Lincoln Project and these sort of never Trump nasty guys, tends to be guys. And I don't even know what they are. Would you describe them as on the right, formerly of the right? They're all on the left now, Steve Schmidt and so on. So I got a Twitter dust up with one of them recently because after the riots on Capitol

Hill, which I had been tweeting about as deeply wrong all day long, I was getting annoyed because I was listening to the media go on and on about how they were right all along. Trump's terrible. His supporters really are deplorables. And the real lesson here is how right the media has been. And I was really kind of, it was stomach turning to me. And I sent out a tweet that read, and I quote, the Capitol riots are wrong, but the Trump critics using this as proof that every criticism they've ever lobbed at Trump or his supporters has been validated is absurd. So this guy, I guess his name is Tom Nichols. I don't know who this loser is, but he tweets out, it's unfortunate to give her one more

moment of attention. But when all this is over, no one should forget that she said this. Now, don't forget, this is the group that's making lists, right, to try to keep people from publishing books, from getting speaking engagements, from getting jobs if they worked in the Trump administration. He's the little list maker. And if you feel differently than Tom, we're going on his list. He's going to try to hurt you.

And the guy writes for The Atlantic and other publications. So, you know, it's not a totally empty threat. He indeed may come after me or you. I mean, I don't I don't give a shit about Tom. But so I tweeted back to him, said, making your list and checking it twice. You don't scare me, Tom. And your sanctimony is repulsive. And it went back and forth from there. But my point is, this is what it's come to now. I have a different view than Tom does of the coverage of what happened in the Capitol. I didn't like what I was hearing from the news media that tried to make it about themselves and a chance to redeem their bias against Trump and his supporters for the past four years.

And for saying that, I got a threat that old Tom was going to be reminding everyone of my words forevermore. Well, you know what, Tom? Do it. It's in print already. Oh, and by the way, I have several million followers and you don't, so I don't need your help reminding anybody. Everyone knows because I put it in writing long before you threatened me. These kind of men make me make my skin crawl. He's just a tiny, tiny man, right? Who has to go out there because it's not just me. He threatens a lot of people. I got a couple of DMs last night from people who you don't know that well, who said they've been threatened by this guy and then had to, you know, not follow him. So anyway, I hate

bullies. He's one of them. And Tom, if you want to tell the world anything I've said, bring it. And now back to KLG. I've been dying to ask you about Regis, the nation's most Regis. And, you know, he was one of the greats. The world did. Right? Somebody we all loved. And, of course, you were the first person after his wife, Joy, that I thought of when I saw that news.

And I think that's true for most of the country, right? You two were a pair. How did that affect you? Well, you know, I did the same thing that I did when I heard that Regis had passed. I did the same thing I did when I heard that Billy had. And the same thing I did when I held Frank in my arms and I realized that he was gone. I rejoiced. I cried tears of joy because I knew where they were and I knew who they were with.

And that's what the Bible calls the peace that passes all understanding. I had shared Jesus with Regis so many times. He believed in him. So I know exactly where Regis went, right into the arms of Jesus. Billy, of course, we all knew he went right into the arms of Jesus.

And Frank did. And that was the song that I wrote with my friend Brett James. Oh, Jesus. You know? And how could he come back once you've been held by Jesus? Forget it.

Nobody wants to come back after that. So I rejoiced. And then I called Joy. And then I went over to Joy and just held her and the girls and just loved on them and of course kept in touch with them since then. And is there an emptiness in me?

Of course. But this is how sweet God was. Regents and Joy came over for lunch two weeks before Reg died. And I hadn't seen them in like seven or eight months because they lived in California and COVID had happened and all of that. So I saw him get out of the car and he was,

they were bringing a wedding gift for Cassidy. I remember that. And I'd watched him and Joy walk up my driveway and get in my courtyard and walk into my house hundreds and hundreds of times over the years. And I knew just by the way he was walking and how he seemed so frail. But we came in, talked about it, said, Regis got the world's greatest head of hair. And he just sort of chuckled.

And Joy says, tell her, tell her, Regis. And I said, what? He goes, what, Joy? What, Joy? You can just hear. She said, this morning when we get up, he said, we're going to see Cap today, right? And Joy said, yes, sweetheart. We're going to go to her house for lunch.

He goes, yeah, that's great. I don't like my hair, Joy. You got to wash and dry my hair, blow dry it. I don't like it. I got to look good. I got to look good for Kath. And I looked at him and said, you always look good to me, honey. She said, I adore you. So we laughed, laughed, laughed, laughed about three hours that day. See, I have those long lunches with people

I love. So keep that in mind, Megan. That's what was going on with you. The only time in my life since I was a kid that I ever had corned beef and it's delicious. Mary, please God, let it open up again. You had, yeah, you needed to eat. You needed to, you needed to celebrate life. I knew it was going to be a hard time for you, but here's the thing. The next day, uh, or as I was leaving Joy's house, which was the next day after Regis had passed, uh, she said, Kathy, I just have to tell you something. She said, Regis hadn't laughed in months before we saw you. He was so depressed because of COVID. He couldn't go anywhere and be Regis. He couldn't show up anywhere and go, Regis is here.

Regis, look everybody, Regis is here. That brought him such joy, making people happy. He just lived for it. He couldn't even go out to lunch with his old friends and talk about the good old days because no restaurants were open in California. He couldn't even walk in the streets because they won't let you walk on the streets. And nobody would go, hey, Regis, because he'd have a mask on. Regis couldn't be who he was anymore. And I think he had a broken heart from it. And Joy said this to me, this is the way I end

the chapter in the book about Regis. She said, Kathy, I just want you to know that the last time I heard Regis laugh was with you. That's amazing. What a compliment. What a great thing to hold on to. What a blessing. I made him happy again. He made me happy. And, you know, we became even dearer friends in the 20 years after I left the show. We never, ever had had a fight. You didn't. I know you guys stayed tight.

But there were reports that the same was not true for your replacement in Regis, Kelly Ripa, and he, and that they had had some sort of a rift. That she basically wasn't grateful to him for the spot. That's what the report said. Oh, yeah, I read it. I hear all that stuff, too. You know what? Regis isn't here to tell you his side of it, and I would never share it because he's my dear friend.

And Kelly, I think, has been kind of open from what I understand about the fact that they weren't close friends like Regis and I were. So, you know, I hear all the same stuff. I choose to just believe that I try to believe what I know to be true. And what I know to be true was that Regis wasn't happy there anymore. And it was time for him to go. And it wasn't that I wasn't happy when I left with Regis. I never was unhappy with Regis or Hoda.

They were the reasons I stayed so long. So it was a different kind of relationship. I would never comment on it any other way than that. She and Ryan asked me to come on after Regis died. And I had asked Joy specifically, I said, Joy, everybody's going to be asking me to come on their shows. What do you want me to do? I'll do whatever you want. She says, please just do the Today Show cast. And I said, okay. Oh, that's good. There were many other shows I said, okay. So that's good. There were many other shows. I said, no.

I mean, you're too classy to say it, but I will say it speaks volumes of how that relationship ended. And it also ended similarly for her and Michael Strahan, who is a great, great guy. Anyway, I'm sorry, but as you can, as everybody knows, I'm not as nice as you are. So I see the truth and I'm going to tell the audience what it is. Well, sometimes you, you, you say, uh, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, right? For another time. And that's what I do in this book. There are stories I tell in this book, Megan, that I've never told, but I can tell it now because I learned a lot about you. I learned a lot about, I mean, I knew for example, that you were the godmother to two of the Kardashians to Kendall Jenner and Kylie Jenner. Right. But I didn't know, like you, you were,

you were with them like really recently. And I didn't know you were the one who gave them. Yeah. The day Kobe Bryant died. And I did want to ask you about that because they've become, you know, since you and Kris Jenner became so close and all that years and years and years ago, when Robert Kardashian, I think, was he still alive when you became friends with her? Yes, they were happily married. Yes. Yes. Okay.

So she lost her husband. She remarried Bruce Jenner. You were married to a big sports guy. What do you think about what's happened to that family since then. I mean, you knew them when none of us knew any of these girls. And now the whole world knows the Kardashian children. Yeah, but they don't. That's the key. They don't know them.

They know what they've seen of them on television. Just the way they think they know Megyn Kelly. They think they know Kathie Lee. They think they know Regis. They only know what we have shown them. And the first time, I mean, I was responsible for them, no, uh-uh. No, our private life is private and we're happy because we keep it that way. And I said, well, but I do have a family

that it would be perfect for. And the person who does it is gonna make a gazillion dollars and it's gonna be a huge hit. And she goes, too, I said, the Kardashian-ner clan there, Kathy Lee and Frank walk out one door in walks the Jackson five in walks, Wayne Gretzky incomes, you know, the Laker team incomes, you know,

that guy, Jay Simpson, Jay Simpson, of course. And, um, and I said, uh, you know, she said, well, I'm not going to touch it. But she said, I think I'll take it to Ryan. Because she had just signed Ryan's secret. And that's how it all happened. That's so crazy. I just spoke with Chris two days ago. We still are dear, dear friends.

Which is we stay dear friends. Because after I watched the pilot episode with my dear friend, Christine has been with me for over 30 years and Cassidy who was 14, I think at the time I looked at Cassidy and I looked at Christine, we went over to Christine's house to watch it because it would have upset Frank so much, I think. And you said, Oh Lord, what have I done? Yes. Yes. So because I had said to Chris, Chris, do it. It's going to be fantastic for the family. But be one of the producers, have some power and make sure that they don't manipulate you into all these situations that aren't real.

It becomes unreality television. I said, make sure they see you praying like you do. Go on to church like you do. Bible study once a week like you do. She says, oh, no, no. I'm one of the producers. We will. And so then when I watched the pilot episode, I looked at Cass and I said, Cass, what do you think?

And this is exactly the truth. This says everything. She said, but mom, they're not like that. And that was the truth. You know, it's funny because I think about them sometimes because a lot of feminists don't like them. I don't, I'm not a feminist, but I understand in this particular case, the criticism, right? So selfie focused and like these enlarged bodies that they don't totally own is, you know, manipulated. And it's just the selfie culture. They, people blame them for the start of the selfie culture and the constant photographs and

all. And I get all that. Like, and I can argue the other side just as easily. They're brilliant businesswomen. They're billionaires. They're essentially in the beauty business. You may not like the way they do it, but they're smart and they're savvy and they, they made something of themselves. Um, but it's not that I want them to be an influence on my daughter. I certainly don't want that. And it's just a funny story about that. They see, no, I mean, they seem kindhearted actually. I interviewed them and each of them seemed really kindhearted and sweet with one another. It's just the, the imagery and all that. So my daughter Yardley had a friend over not long ago. And I was doing my makeup and they were in the bathroom with me.

And the girl goes, is that Kim Kardashian's makeup? And I was like, no, no. And then my daughter said, who's Kim Kardashian? And I said, oh, never mind. It's not important. And she said, no, who's Kim Kardashian? I'm like, never mind. It's not important.

So now I have both of these nine-year girls wanting me to tell them who, you know, they are very sweet girls. They're so sweet. They've made some really bad choices. And guess what? So have I. You know? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

No. And they're very, very generous. And they do a lot of good, too. But, you know, my point was, I said to Chris, Chris, understand, I love you. And I'm going to love, I'm going to die loving you as my friend. Cause we were that close. I said, but I think to maintain our marriage, our friendship, I think that we, I need to not watch the show, uh, you know, very often or very much. And I asked only just one thing and she goes, okay, what?

I said, please keep my goddaughters off the damn stripper pole. And apparently she didn't do that. They were on the stripper pole. You know what? I've had so much hate mail about my friendships with them. And I go, you know, I'm not going to tell you who your friends are. You have no right to tell mail about my friendships with them. And I go, you know, I'm not going to tell you who your friends are. You have no right to tell me who my friends should be. They don't seem like bad people. That's also a lot of envy. My mother was the most devout Christian woman in the world. Moral beyond.

She loved the show. Now, she knew Chris. It's entertaining. She loved the show. It's entertaining. I said, Mom, you love it love it she goes you know why because at the end of every episode there's still a family and they love each other and i went wow i got a good one i i got a good one for you so kim kardashian so i asked her when i interviewed

them about these photos that had just been released of her in a bikini and they'd been taken unauthorized by some paparazzi and you could see cellulite on her bottom. And of course the tabloids went nuts for it. Like Kim Kardashian has cellulite, right? Because the image is always so perfect and people just enjoy when they discover flaws. And so I said, what did you think of that? Far from being embarrassed, she was like, can I tell you something? She goes, there were around that same time, there were pictures of me in a bikini and my, my rear end looked amazing. And she goes, Megan, they were taken on the same day, the same day she goes, except I took one and the paparazzi took another. And I said, so was that,

was it all about the filter? And you know what she said? She did womankind a favor. And she taught me something that I will never forget. She said, if you want to have a good beach photo taken of yourself, you don't go at noon. That is when the paparazzi got me. She said, you go to the beach right around the sunset hour, 6, 630, depends on what time of year it is. And she said, and you put on your big round cellulite ridden bottom something called Sally Hansen legs, which you can get at CVS for just a few dollars. And dude, it works. I used that when I did my movie, when I had all those leg shots for my Sally Hansen legs. No way. God bless Kim Kardashian.

She's willing to spread the wealth, KLG. That's one of the things I do like about the woman. That product has been around even longer than the Kardashians. That's been around forever. It's like Sally Hansen nails. Totally. I thought it was going to be like, then you must buy Kylie Jenner cosmetics. No, no, no.

It was good old Sally Hansen legs. She's been around since before old Christy Lane, who used to do the commercials on Fox news when I first started by the, by the rolling ocean. Remember Christy Lane? Yeah, of course. By the way, I do want to recommend people the movie then came you, which you worked really hard on. And I think it's a wonderful story about loss and starting over and letting the next phase be the greatest, whatever age you're at. So I want to ask you that, as you say, you know, in the film, I have to make new memories of the old ones are going to kill me. Are you at that place now where they can actually coexist peacefully

and joyfully, and you can hold on to all the, all the bad, all the good, all the depression, all the anger, all the forgiveness, and still go forward into this next phase, willing to be vulnerable, willing to take risks, willing to put yourself out there in whatever, in relationship, in life. Are you asking me if I, am I dating somebody? I'm not, I'm not. I'm on to you. For the record, I didn't ask that. I just want that noted. I dated about Four different guys Last year It had been Three years I think since Frank had passed Or four years I don't know and I started

I dated a few of them and they're all Really good guys nice guys Wonderful guys But not my guys You know they weren't right for me And I always ended it Very soon because it's not fair to use people just because you like to go dancing, just because he likes music the way you do,

or just because he's a good kisser, you know, all the things that, um, I mean, if I can't have, um, a love that that's beyond the love that I had with the, the love of my life, which was Frank, then, then I'll, I'll take friendships, great friendships with great guys, rather than another bad marriage, for sure.

Like my first one was, but I, I, I don't even know if I should say this, but I am, let's just say right now, I'm very, very happy right now.

And that's all I'll say until we end the podcast. And then I'll tell you the truth. Are you regularly feeling flushed and wanting a cigarette? No, I never wanted to smoke. But I do blush on occasion. I am thrilled to hear it. Go get them, Kathy Lee. Lots of love.

I miss you and I love you. I love you too, Megan. God bless. Give my love to that beautiful family of yours. Hey, if you like the program, please go ahead now and subscribe to it. Would love to have you as a subscriber and download the episodes as they come up.

You can give it a five-star rating if you're feeling super kind in the new year. Apparently, Apple's not taking reviews anymore, or at least hasn't been for a month. So you can, if you have thoughts on the show or who we should book, send me an email at questions at devilmaycaremedia.com. This hour has been brought to you in part by Grove Collaborative. This is a new sponsor, and I have to say their stuff has been really nice. Take the guesswork out of going green. Go to grove.co.mk to shop for all of your sustainable home essentials.

Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.