The Megyn Kelly Show - Nancy Guthrie and Daughter's Homes Searched Again, Plus NEW Ransom Details, with Brian Entin, Fitzgerald, Ayers, and O'Shea | Ep. 1248

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

Megyn Kelly discusses big police activity at both Nancy Guthrie and Annie Guthrie's homes over the weekend, the second deadline approaching from the ransom note, the heartbreaking new message to the potential abductor on Savannah Guthrie's Instagram account, and more. Then Brian Entin, NewsNation senior national correspondent, joins to discuss the new note received by the Guthrie family, Savannah's curious use of words like “celebrate” and “peace" in the video message, the status of the investigation and partnership between local and federal law enforcement, and more. Then Daniel O'Shea, host, "Into the Lion's Den," joins to discuss signs suggesting Nancy Guthrie’s disappearance may not have been a real kidnapping, what the circumstances surrounding the morning she was reported missing could mean, insights from a former hostage negotiator, and more. Then James Fitzgerald, co-host "Cold Red Podcast," and Chad Ayers, former SWAT team leader, join to discuss President Trump’s commentary on Nancy Guthrie’s kidnapping, him hinting toward a possible “solution,” the massive interest in this story across teh country, the significance of Guthrie's pacemaker, what we're learning about the timeline of the disappearance as police keep searching the two relevant homes, the manhole being searched near Guthrie's home, police towing her car now, and more. Entin- https://www.newsnationnow.com/author/brian-entin/O'Shea- https://armedforces.press/Ayers- https://www.proactiverg.com/why-proactive/about-our-leadership/Fitzgerald-https://www.youtube.com/@ColdRedPodcast-tb2lb/featured Dose: Support your liver and daily energy with Dose for Your Liver—get 35% off your first month at https://dosedaily.co/MK or use code MK at checkout.Lean: Discover why LEAN is becoming the choice for real weight‑loss results—shop now at https://TAKELEAN.com use code MK.Byrna: Go to https://Byrna.com or your local Sportsman's Warehouse today.PureTalk: Tired of big wireless prices? Switch to PureTalk for unlimited talk and text for $25/month—dial #250 and say MEGYN KELLY for 50% off your first month.  Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at New East. Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. Hopefully you joined me and my family and switching the channel to the Turning Point USA halftime show last night. We hope to get into those dueling performances later in the show. But we begin today with the latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of NBC news host Savannah Guthrie, who authorities believe was forcibly removed from her home in Arizona a week and a day ago. She was last seen Saturday, January 31st, which is nine days ago. And given that we know she lives with a pacemaker and has limited mobility, the outlook does not, it doesn't look good. I mean, her family said on day one that she has life-saving medication she needs, that she can't live without.

And that was, you know, last Monday. and here we are now nine days from the time she was last seen and eight days from the confirmed disappearance. The latest from the Pima County Sheriff's Department on X, quote, no suspects, persons of interest or vehicles have been identified. Not even a person of interest more than a week out. Do we believe that? I don't. Let's check in to see what Sheriff Chris Nanos was doing this weekend. Was he looking for a person of interest or a suspect? Let's see. Oh, it doesn't appear so. This is a picture obtained by Fox News Digital. showing Sheriff Nanos at Saturday's University of Arizona men's basketball game. Having a grand old time.

I'm sorry, but that is completely tone deaf. I don't care that he needs to blow off steam. You know what? You know who really needs a release from the stress of this past week? Savannah Guthrie? Yeah. She's somebody who's actually really suffering, and that's obvious. She's not going to be able to go to a sports game to take her mind off of it.

Sheriff? Because she needs you to do your job. job and to do it better before she can. I don't know what's how. I'm praying, praying every day that this is like an Idaho situation where the police look like nincompoops while on camera and behind the scenes they're solving it. I'm really praying that's what's happening and very open-minded to that actually being the case, very relieved that the FBI is on scene and working with this sheriff because just the sheriff's own on-camera mistakes have been plenty.

There have been plenty of them on very material matters. And so I've grown to the point where I really don't know that we should trust his word. And I also really do wonder how someone could be that tone deaf. If you want to go blow off steam in the middle of a very stressful, busy, possible murder, possible kidnapping situation, you should have dinner with your family. You should have friends over or go to somebody's house. You should not go out in public and cheer on a sports game. it looks insensitive, sir.

The Daily Mail reporting this morning that the sheriff's six-person homicide detective team handling the case lacks major case experience. The investigator leading the probe reportedly has been working homicides for just two years. The most experienced detective on the team has worked on murders for just three years.

FBI director Cash Patel is reportedly traveling to Arizona today, but we're told it's a previously scheduled trip unrelated to the Guthrie case. We do know that the FBI is on the case. We saw Mr. Yonke co-hosting that presser last Thursday. So let's hope one of or all of these law enforcement agencies figure out what exactly is going on there so that this family can have some relief. We walk you through the developments over the weekend in this morning's AM update, which is definitely worth your time this morning.

But to quickly summarize, local Tucson station KOLD received another message purported. from Ms. Guthrie's captors. And another Tucson station called K-G-U-N, K-G-G-G-G-G-Gun, is reporting now that the original ransom note received last week demanded $1 million by last Thursday and the price went up to $6 million by 5 p.m. this evening. The threat, either implicit or explicit, no one's sharing exactly what else the note said, is that if they don't get this $6 million by 5 p.m. tonight, Nancy Guthrie will be killed because their original note that had the one and $6 million demands,

we are told, said she was okay, said they had her. Now, there's still no confirmation that whoever's writing these messages has or has ever had possession of Nancy Guthrie. none whatsoever. There's been no proof of life or even captivity. None. Notwithstanding that, Savannah and her siblings, Annie and Cameron did put out a new video. Saturday night, which we now know was in response to the second note, the contents of which no one's really sharing. I mean, it didn't go out loud. The first one went to TMZ and two others. The second note, which we know, which we know, know virtually nothing about when only to the one station. And it said virtually nothing. I mean, it, not that it said virtually nothing. We know virtually nothing about what it said other than it tried to convince the media and ultimately the Guthrie's that it was being written by the same person who wrote the first note, which was a ransom note. We're told that note number two wasn't technically a ransom note. But again, we know almost nothing else about it. But we are now,

being told that this video I'm about to show you from the three siblings was a direct response to note number two. Watch. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay. I think we cut off the first line of that where she said, we heard you and we understand. in her note. She made clear that they had received the second note. Though again, they're not sending these to the family. They're sending them to the media. We're going to break down

what's to glean from that with our law enforcement analysts later in the show. It's very interesting she used the word celebrate, celebrate with her. I mean, I think any Christian knows that's in this context could very well be a reference to a celebration of life that you might have after someone has passed. The whole tone of it sounded to me more like an acceptance that perhaps their mom is gone and that they will pay to receive her remains. That's just my own take on it. I could be totally wrong on that, but so we can celebrate with her. I mean, it's such an odd word if they're really like, no one thinks that if Nancy Guthrie has returned, there's going to be a massive celebration. We're going to celebrate. I mean, like that, that's clearly not what she

the graveness of her manner and that of her brother and sister, I mean, completely appropriately grave, in that message and their look and their tone and what they said to me was telegraphing. We know she's no longer alive, but we want her back. We want her remains. We want to give her a proper burial. We want to have a celebration of life. That's how I read it, but we'll ask our experts in just a bit.

Over the weekend on Friday, there was a lot of activity in this case. On Friday night, authorities took possession of Nancy's blue Subaru from her garage. Very strange that it was still sitting in there. It's like the FBI got unseen last, what, Tuesday and started to say, have we done a thorough search for all the evidence? Why is the victim's car still sitting in the garage? Well, she didn't drive it. Well, how do you know that? Was she possibly stored in the car for some period of time when she was a captive?

Maybe they considered removing her from her garage with her own car. Who knows? I'm sure somebody got on scene and said, hmm, seems like something we might want to search for clues. And now they have. They've seized the car. Investigators reportedly also investigating in nearby Circle K convenience store in relation to either a person or vehicle of interest. Now, we had the locals, the workers at that Circle K speak to the media and say, yeah, the law enforcement came by here and they wanted to

know about a person who came by here and we showed them a videotape and they took it. I mean, again, the law enforcement is coming out saying there's no person of interest, there's no vehicle of interest, there's nothing. Now, we know they're lying to us, okay? Like, they're lying. Or they're using those terms as terms of art. person of interest, vehicle of interest, suspect, like official suspect. We know that's not true. I mean, they are looking at various people and vehicles behind the scene. They've impounded in evidence, Annie Guthrie's vehicle, now Nancy Guthrie's vehicle, and they're asking about a suspicious vehicle at the Circle K and seizing surveillance tape of it.

They're just not going to tell us. So that's fine. They got to play their game. And I'm sorry, but the media is in a different game. We're in the, we get to the bottom of it and find truth game. And I understand they don't want to tell us everything. That's fine. That's how it is in every case, every case, until they do want to use us, and then they start leaking to us. We're not at that stage yet. Saturday we saw that new Savannah tape that we just played for you. Plus, the investigators were seen at Savannah's sister Annie's home until 10.30 p.m. local time reports were that they spent some three hours inside the home. home. Now, why would they go there in the evening when it's mostly dark? I mean, it's all dark, 730 to 1030 this time of year, rather than going during the day when it's easier to see,

you're going to get caught by the press either way. The press is camped out there. They're not leaving. Could be they just got a tip that evening, but photography flashes could be seen by reporters who were outside the residence as they have been. And law enforcement knew they'd be there. Yesterday, we saw law enforcement conduct a grid search and look into what appeared to be a manhole near Nancy's home, like a large, like picture a manhole removed, and then you just see this perfect circular opening into the earth. And there's been some debate about whether it was a septic tank, although the man putting like materials down there wasn't wearing any sort of a hazmat outfit, which those who, understand how this is done, speculated meant this was not a septic tank because he wouldn't have been doing that without any sort of mask or gloves or protective gear on, given the nature of a septic tank. So it could have just been a water tank. They're not in the main sewage line.

We are told in this development. So we're just not sure. But he stuck some pipes down there and possibly a metal detector. There's reports that he stuck a metal detector down there. And all you can think about as the poor family because, I mean, it's like maybe he was looking for a weapon. And of course, one has to consider maybe he was looking for the victim. And the family has to sit there at home. I'm sure they're watching TV. I mean, could you not? If this were your loved one, could you not? And having to hold your breath and wonder exactly what might be down there and what they were going to find. it appeared to be nothing, though that's unconfirmed, but nothing was seen, you know, getting pulled out of that hole in the earth. In a bit, we're going to bring in the best law enforcement analysts

onto this show to walk us through the latest. Plus, M.K. True Crime host, Phil Holloway is on his way to the scene right now. He will bring us exclusive reporting tomorrow. But we begin with someone who has broken many of the details of this story, News Nation's Brian Enten, who's reporting live outside of Annie's home right now and was there the other night when law enforcement got there as well. At a certain point in life, you realize you are responsible for a whole lot of things, but the most important is your health, because without it, nothing else matters. We may not think about our liver very much, but it's our body's daily filter, processing everything you consume. It performs 500-plus daily functions. Think energy production, digestion, fat metabolism, vitamin storage. And when your liver's

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That's Dose, D-O-S-E, Daily, D-A-I-L-Y, dot C-O-L-K for 35% off your first month's subscription. Brian, welcome back. Great to see you. So can you set the scene for us on Saturday night and what happened at Annie's home? Yeah, Megan. It kind of came out of nowhere. I was over at Nancy's house, which is. about 10 minutes away and I got a call like something's going going down at Andy's house. So I

raced over here. This is Andy's house behind me. And when I got here, there were three deputies that had just arrived. They have private security here. NBC hired private security, I'm told. And it seemed coordinated because the security guard just moved out of the way, let the three deputies in. And they had blue gloves on. They had some camera equipment that was in a case. They went inside and they were inside for three hours. They closed all the blinds. I could see them taking pictures. Yeah, there you go, right.

That's some of the stuff they brought out. I could see them taking pictures in the garage. You could see a flash from a camera. And then you could see them move throughout the house to other parts of the house because you could see the flash from the camera coming from around the blinds. Hmm. And it took about three hours? Yeah, they were inside for three hours.

And then they packed up and they left. They didn't say a word. and NBC is reporting today that it was consensual, that I guess it was worked out with the family, that they were going to show up, which really doesn't surprise me, because, again, just it didn't seem, you know, it seemed like they knew they were coming.

The security guard moved out of the way. They knew how to get into the house. There's no one at the house right now, so they went on their own, and it all seemed like very coordinated. Brian, where's the family? It's a good question. We don't know.

They were here. Savannah was at this house early last week with her sister. her sister's husband and Cameron was here also. And this is where they filmed the first video because we saw them bring the ringlight and the tripod in. And somehow they left without anyone really noticing. And it's interesting there were more security guards here

specifically hired by NBC when Savannah was here. There were three security guards. And then when she left, now there's only one security guard just sort of keeping an eye on the house and telling people to stay back. Well, it's interesting to watch NBC in the mornings. on the Today Show to see what they're reporting on this case, because there's no question in my mind,

it will have been blessed by Savannah. There's zero doubt that they are asking her, are you comfortable with this? Are you okay? They would not want to upset her or report, get out ahead of their skis or go someplace where she didn't want it. And they were the ones who broke the news

that the search of Annie's home was consensual as opposed to, you know, via search warrant. So to me, I'm deducing, though I can't confirm it as an independent fact, that she doesn't want it looking like her sister or anybody living in that home, like the brother-in-law, are in any way in trouble. But that does not jive with Ashley Banfield's reporting about them considering Annie's husband, Tamas, and that he may, quote, be a, may be a prime suspect in this case. We're still investigating that, too, Brian.

and whether the brother in law is coming under the scrutiny of law enforcement. And all I can tell you is that I have reason to believe Ashley Banfield was on to something. I don't know that he did this, but I do believe her reporting that they are taking a very serious look at him. And he's been out of the picture. I mean, he has not been in any of the videos. Has he been seen at all, Brian? He hasn't been seen since I think it was Tuesday of last week. We got some photos of him outside the house here.

very recognizable with this big beard. And he was outside with his wife, Savannah's sister, Annie, and they were in the car together. But it's now been almost a week. And something else interesting, you mentioned how they went, the authorities went and retrieved the surveillance video from the gas station and that they were looking for someone. That gas station is a circle K. And it's right around the corner from Annie's house. It's not close to Nancy's house.

It's right around the corner from Andy's house. And it's where it's positioned is where you would have, the drive to go from Nancy's house to Annie's house, which I think is really interesting. It's literally like one minute away from here. Here's what I want to know. I want to know whether anybody's been asked to give and or has given a polygraph. Not a peep about that. Is that correct?

No one's saying a word. Not a word. I interviewed yesterday a former homicide detective for Pima County who was there for 20 years and is now retired. And it's interesting what you were reporting in the beginning of your show. I mean, he says the same exact thing. that there's been so much turnover there, that it's a mess at the sheriff's office,

and that most of the homicide detectives have like two years experience. And so he's concerned a lot of the veterans like him have left just because they've been upset with the department for different reasons. And there was a different sheriff, and then another sheriff came back. And it's been a mess there. But he was telling me that in his 20 years there, they never once administered a polygraph.

That wasn't something that they did as a sheriff's office ever, not even once. But I know. Yeah, I know. But I don't know if now that the FBI is involved, you know, maybe they would be doing that. I don't know because while they suggested it was a joint investigation at the Thursday presser, FBI, Pima County. My understanding is it's Pima County running hurt on this. It's their investigation. They're running point.

And so that may tell us some unfortunate things. Here's the other thing I want to know. the Sunday discovery that Nancy was missing allegedly came down to someone at her church noticing she wasn't there and calling the family, which then sent the family to Nancy's home, which led to the discovery of the crime scene. However it looked, they haven't really told us

what was inside the home. The Daily Mail and you also, we talked about this last week, reporting that Nancy Guthrie was actually attending, was no longer attending the church that they said she was, and that, in fact, she'd been going virtual for the past five years since COVID, that she'd been participating in the live stream that this church offers,

leading us to ask, how would anybody have noticed that she wasn't on the live stream? Because it's not like a Zoom where you can see people joining. Now, we did actually try to join it this weekend and realize that there's a chat. You can join a chat. So it is possible that somebody was in the chat. Look, maybe it's my own bias. the thought of my mom, not only joining a live stream who's 84,

but actually then getting in the church chat during the mass and chatting, like, it's an impossibility, but maybe Nancy got through is a lot more tech savvy than my 84-year-old mom could be. She had an Apple Watch. So I want to know whether the investigators have tracked down the alleged parishioner who made the, who's purported to have made the phone call, Brian.

Do we know whether that's happened? It hasn't happened from what we know. that's been one of the strange things about this is we've all, me and then all of my other colleagues, we all talk about it out on the street. We've all been trying to figure out this church element. Everybody has been to the church. Everybody has talked to the pastor. And the pastor has said that she went to the church, but that she hasn't come back in person since, since COVID, that she goes virtually. And no one seems to know that she went to another church. And the church over the weekend at their service, you know, the pastor talked about Nancy. And it appears that's the church she goes to.

And what I thought was interesting, Megan, is at the last press conference, the sheriff never brought up the church again. It's almost like he said that the first time right after this happened, but then no one ever talks about the church anymore. So I don't know, you know, the sheriff made a lot of weird off-the-cuff remarks and mistakes. Like, I don't know if that's just something he said initially. And now there's another reason that the family was concerned that has nothing to do with the church. I just don't know. Here's what he said when asked. The question was, have you interviewed the people that reported her, meaning Nancy, missing from the church?

And he responded, we're doing all kinds of interviews. Yes, I'm sure we have. Okay, which is not actually a yes. That's not actually yes at all. It's actually kind of disconcerting. And yet another thing that either they do need to do or they've done and he's just not telling us. We don't know. So, Brian, what about today? The deadline now for this 5 p.m. $6 million payment is looming. And the Savannah and Siblings video from the other night said we will pay. It said we will pay. But they've had no proof of life. They don't know whether these people actually have their mom. And so do we believe that they're actually going to pay $6 million in Bitcoin? Like has it has, has

any law enforcement spoken to this or shed any light on what the next step should be? I mean, they said, Savannah said they will pay whether they end up doing it. We don't know. And it's interesting. You mentioned the local affiliate was reporting. I think you said it was $1 million and $6 million. That's a little different than what I've learned. I learned it was $4 million and $6 million. And $4 million was the first deadline on Thursday at 5 p.m. And $6 million is the deadline today. But that was in the first note. And the second note, while we don't know exactly what it says, there are some indications that it, you know, based on what Savannah said in her video, the second note may have alluded to Nancy not being okay. And that's why I'm hearing they're not calling it a ransom note.

They're just calling it a note. And there was no demand for payment in the second note. It was just a message to the family. It wasn't like, and you can still pay this amount by this time. So I don't, and also, is there a third note that we just don't know about? But that's the other thing I've been wondering. Maybe they're just not reporting on it yet. And Savannah's video is responding to a third note.

I wonder the same because some of the messaging is so, like, controlled and calculated. It almost seems like they're saying something. Can we watch the Savannah video one more time? Let's just watch it one more time. We received your message and we understand. we beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay.

So first of all, it's incredibly grim. They're all very grim faced. There's nothing about their expressions that telegraphs they've gotten any sort of hopeful news. We understand, she said, we understand in a sad, like, contemplative way. we beg you. She's begging them now, saying, give us our mother back so we can celebrate with her. Again, that word celebrate sticks out like a sore thumb. And it's the only way we'll have peace, which is another word associated with, I think, people who are grieving, having a settlement of the grief, even if it's a sad settlement, but just a settlement. Like you know what's happening.

And you can be a peace with it. To me, that's what she was telegraphing. But you're right. We don't know what was in the note. Wait, but Brian, the $4 million would make more sense to me than four and six makes more sense to me than one in six. Because I have to tell you, you know, I've had this conversation behind the scenes with a few different people. Let's face it, a million dollars is not much for Savannah Guthrie. That's, she can lose that easily and not really even feel it. So like, if that were the initial demand, I think they would have just paid it. They would have just paid it on Thursday. four million is a different that's a different i mean that's a lot more yeah and i'm confident in in my reporting the person who i spoke to saw the note himself so uh i'm sure it was four million and six million and i can't remember if i talked to you about this last time but the other thing that was

in the first note that was so alarming to the fbi there's two things one the location of the apple watch inside nancy's room was very very specific and the other thing is they specifically referenced a damage smashed floodlight in the backyard, which has since been removed up on the back of Nante's house, which is smashed. So those two things were spot on in the first note, which appears to be why they've been taking all of this so seriously. But Brian, don't you think, like, okay, so the floodlight is visible from the outside. You know, people were crawling all over the property and especially, you know, Monday. I think the first notes came Tuesday. So you would have just had to see it on sometimes Sunday or Monday. Or prior to that, you know,

potentially you could have seen it prior to that. If you were a contractor taking advantage of the family's pain here and you'd been inside the house, you might know about that floodlight and you might know where she keeps her Apple watch at night. The thing that's, that I can't get past is if I stole somebody and I needed to give proof of life so that I could get millions of I would ask that person questions that only that person would know the answers to. And I would put that information in my note. Like, information above all would be proof of life, not where, like, who would say where she keeps the Apple Watch or that a floodlight had been damaged as there, aha, it is I. I've got your person proof.

Right. Yeah, it's a good point. You'd think there'd be something more specific, you know, and they, and initially, you know, they really wanted to open these lines of communication, but you'd imagine if there really is a kidnapper, they would be hesitant to do that because you know the FBI is trying to track. And I don't know if you knew this, Megan, but we found out through the news director of KOLD, which is where both notes went, that it wasn't submitted through like an email. It came through a news tips form that you fill out on the website of, you know what I mean?

Like you can fill out your name, subject. Both notes are just the second. one. Both notes. They went to KOLD at least. I don't know if it's the same with TMZ. So I think that makes it harder to track. And they used, you know, a scrambler for the IP address because it was different IP addresses both times. So if they, you know, I don't know that you can attach a picture that way. I know. And I don't even think you need a picture, though. Like if somebody had a relative of yours or anybody or mine or anybody listening, we all know certain things they could ask the relative. Like if anybody who I know very well, a family member needed to prove through a kidnapper that it was them, that they were with the kidnapper,

they absolutely could do it with information, with references, you know, with like family jokes, like it would be easy. And so just the fact that this person has gone with something so weird, like an outside floodlight and the location of an apple, what is that? That proves to me you've to the house and it looks like you've been in the house. But that think of the number of contractors, an 84-year-old has going through her home. You can do very little as an 84-year-old. She probably has somebody help her change her light bulbs. She definitely has somebody change her air filters. Her air conditioner goes on the fritz. Somebody comes in. The person who may have changed the roof recently, as the neighbor observed, it's like the list is so long. But now we're talking about

somebody who's taking advantage of the family's pain and not necessarily the person who's causing it. Or is all this just a sideshow, Megan? I mean, I've been thinking about this all weekend. You know, is all of this just something that the FBI has to look into and that Savannah and her family have to respond to because you put yourself in their shoes, you know, just in case, how could you not? What if in the 1% chance it is true, you know, you want to respond, you want to try? But is there a whole other side of this investigation happening that, like you mentioned at the beginning, we just don't know about? I mean, I'm coming here to the house, you know, at 9 o'clock at night on the Saturday out of nowhere. The only thing that I'm skeptical about that, though, is that it was these three sheriff's deputies who were just kind of like, I don't know.

I mean, I saw the raid at Nancy's house. I shouldn't say raid, but I saw when the FBI team showed up, it was like insane. I mean, it was a full-on FBI. They're in their special outfits. They're in the fancy vans and the evidence unit and the tape goes up and it felt so organized. Here on Saturday night, it was just these three deputies. I mean, I hate to say it, but their cars were a little beat up and they get out and they kind of wobble in. Like, if this was so serious here, why didn't the FBI come here?

Like, there's just, there's a lot I can't figure out. Mm-hmm. And all we know, like, from what you could tell from outside was that they were taking pictures on the inside, right? Right. Could you tell whether they were spraying chemicals or, you know, anything like that inside? No. No. And I've heard people say, you know, could it be luminal? You know, they do that at night sometimes to, you know, so that they can use a black light and see if there's blood inside. That could be one of the reasons they came at night or maybe, like you said, they may have just gotten some piece of information and they said, let's go out there. Or like what feels like the rest of this investigation, maybe they're just realizing, oh, God, we forgot to do this. How have we not done this yet? Let's let we got to go out and get pictures of the inside of that. house just in case, just like they didn't tow Nancy's car until Friday night, which it's like, why wouldn't they have done that earlier in the week? And I mentioned that former homicide detective I spoke to. He's in shock. He's like, how was all of this stuff not done within the first 48 hours? Why are they

going back and doing all these things days later? And you mentioned the sheriff at the basketball game. You know that was around the time Savannah released this second video. So he's at the basketball game. It's the same time, Megan. He's at the basketball game. He's at the basketball game. as you see Savannah holding her siblings hands, you know, maybe saying that they think Nancy's dead. Like, come on, dude. Like, what are you doing, you know? Understand the optics. We had two points I wanted to make.

Number one, the other possibility at the search in Annie's home, which was by consent, according to NBC and only had the three guys in the beat up car show up to take pictures, is that that could be by design. Because right now the family is giving them consent. The family's working with them. The sheriff said that earlier last week. they're cooperating and we want that to continue. Maybe it's, we cannot show up FBI style and do this because we do not wish to telegraph to

anybody in the family that they are anything other than victims in our eyes. And we certainly don't want to go in guns blazing with a full FBI treatment and telegraph that we think this may be a crime scene. So we're going to keep it on the down low. We're going to keep it casual so that they're not regretting giving us the consent. It's a possibility. I don't know, just speculating. Secondly, on the delays and that your former law enforcement guy out of Pima County and his shock, Brian, that's all I could think when they were out looking

in the, you know, whether it's a water tank, whatever they were looking at that with the manhole cover. And the grid search renewing again and searching again in Nancy's home is now, like now you're going to do that. Now, so you did one day of searching. They searched that last Sunday, a week ago into Monday. And by Monday afternoon, they had called off the search. The sheriff used that term saying maybe we'll resume it, but they had called it off. And I don't want to be too graphic, but like this is an area riddled with wildlife. Like if they're looking for a dead body, it's been a long time.

Like this was a long time to wait to get really aggressive about searching for human remains. Yeah, I wonder, look, we don't know. like you mentioned Idaho, we found out later they knew a lot behind the scenes with Kohlberger that we didn't know and I was being hard on them every single day and then I went back and I said, oh my gosh, I was wrong. They were really working hard behind the scenes.

But is it possible here this is like almost cold right now? Like are they sitting in a room somewhere saying what else can we do? Like we know we're hitting so many dead ends. Oh, did we check the septic tank? Oh, did we check the water tank? Oh, let's go photo. You know what I mean?

Like I think that's a possibility too. I really do. They could just be in a room like, what box have we not checked because we're screwed right now? We're hitting dead ends. But it does make you wonder whether they've seen something

via an email, a cell phone record, or something to suggest that Nancy wasn't kidnapped, that she was killed. I think there was something in the second note. I do. I think the message, the reason they're being so careful not to call it a ransom note,

and it was a message, I think there was something in that note that led Savannah to be very specific in her wording there. So do you think, Brian, then, that, I mean, like your gut, I know you don't know, but do you think that the notes are coming from the actual perpetrator? I mean, that's, I wish I knew. That's the big question. I'm still 50, everyone keeps asking me, like my mom's texting me every morning.

I'm still 50-50, like, on whether this is really a kidnapping. Like, I go back and forth because so much of it doesn't make sense, but would they put Savannah through this? Would they be making, just the misery that she has to go through when she makes these videos and you know that they've got to be treating her with kid gloves and feel terrible for her? Would they be putting her through that if it wasn't legitimate, if they didn't believe it was a possibility? Yeah, law enforcement, I mean. But at the same time, if there is someone else involved and you go back to Banfield's report, And I don't have any of that reporting, but if it is some kind of inside job or someone who knows the family, are they also treating it with kid gloves and saying we got to check every box here? We're not rushing into this because this is Savannah Guthrie and we're about to like humiliate this person. I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, imagine you would feel suddenly it's someone in your orbit that is responsible. So I do think because it's her, they're being very, very careful. Brian Enton, you've been doing great work. Highly recommend Brian's show. Just Google it in the podcast, Brian Enton, E-N-T-I-N-N, and you'll find it or YouTube. I watch them both ways, and I love all your content, my friend. Thank you for being on.

Thanks, Megan. Coming up, we dig into the case further with some law enforcement experts and more, and I have a lot of questions that I want answered a lot. And we're going to get into them next. everybody's talking about weight loss injections because the results can be so dramatic. They work by lowering blood sugar and reducing appetite. But what if you're looking to lose weight, but you're not interested in painful weekly injections, especially when you hear about some of those intense side effects? That's why doctors created a weight loss supplement called Lean, and the results could be remarkable. Lean says the studied ingredients in their product have been shown to lower your blood sugar,

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the Guthrie family believes there is at least a chance the ransom notes are from Nancy's captor or captors. There's no other explanation for the three Instagram videos from Savannah's account where the siblings ask for further communication about how to get their mother home. To help us analyze all this, we wanted to bring in a seasoned hostage negotiator, and it's hard to find someone with more experience than our next guest. Commander Daniel O'Shea is a retired Navy SEAL who served as the coordinator of the hostage working group for the U.S. Embassy in Iraq from 2004 to 06. O'Shea managed more than 400 hostage incidents in his time in Iraq, and by the time he left, kidnappings had dropped to the single digits. Dan, welcome to the show. It's my pleasure and honor to be here, Megan.

Okay, so we're going to play it one more time, the latest video, and get your take on what, if anything, you think, has changed here. Here it is. This is released on Saturday night. We received your message, and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us. and we will pay. What do you make of it, Dan?

That's heartbreaking. You know, I saw hundreds of these pleas from families from all over the world to try and bring their loved one home that was taken hostage by the likes of Al-Qaeda and other jihadist groups in Iraq. So it's troubling because it's the pain in English of not knowing. And, you know, it brings back a lot of flashback of a lot of memories.

But you can never give up hope. We had cases. where there was a deadline set. Presumably, we know this group harmed, you know, Ms. Guthrie in the initial abduction because there was blood left to the scene. And we only know what blood was left outside. We don't know anything about what's done been done forensically inside the house. So that's my biggest concern is that the propensity for violence from the get-go

is why everyone should be very concerned. And not so much because of the deadline, but because that the groups doing this has already shown they're willing to be violent with an 84-year-old woman, grandmother as well. So, I mean, one of the big questions here is, are the people torturing the family with these notes the same people that have or hurt Nancy Guthrie eight and a half days ago?

I was saying to Brian Enton in the first segment, Dan, I just have a really hard time believing the people writing these notes were involved in Nancy's kidnapping or whatever happened to her because I was saying that if I, If I had Nancy Guthrie, if I went to the trouble to kidnap somebody and then wanted to prove to somebody that I had her, I would not be referencing some damaged floodlight or where her Apple Watch was in her home. That's bullshit. That's the kind of stuff you manage to see through a window. And to me, it sounds like you're trying to sound like you know more than you do.

If you've got Nancy, you can ask her anything, anything that would prove to her three children and know her. better than anybody, that you actually have her. You don't have to do a picture. You don't need a video. You just need her to tell you things only the children and the mother would remember from their childhoods. A hundred percent. And that's, I, you're not, you're, you're not a H&R, a K&R background or hostage is negotiated. But I had that suspicion. What are we from almost day one when the first ransom note came out. First off, they sent the ransom note to TMZ, a tabloid network. And then the local news media. All right. That's not how PNR, Knapped for ransom works.

If kidnapping is a business around the world and the groups that do the kidnapping, they have the prize, they grab the prize, and they want to keep that prize protected and they want to demonstrate to the prospective buyer, payer, that we have who you're looking for. Let's start the negotiation and you come

out with a large number. That $4 million initial to $6 million, the latest ransom men, that's not outside the norm range for an American because that's, you know, this is a big business. And because obviously, Savannah, I've Gunthery, you know, big news network, morning show host, she's going to have the resources to probably come up with that kind of money, and that's what they're counting on. But then you've got to negotiate in good faith.

And from no way, shape, or form has the group that is claiming to hold her been operating good faith? And the fact that they haven't been able to provide a substance of proof of life or even trying to submit some AI version of it, which could have been, you know, suspect that they're trying to do this. but I am suspect that the group that has her, is the group that took her response for abduction is the group that is sending these messages. They may be related, but I really think this is part of the show and drama

to drive up this news media story, and why is that happening? Let's go to the underlying motives, and the motives may not be money, and I don't think it's money they want here. I think they want the news media attention, focus on this case, and maybe get some other news stories off the net,

and then go, why did they target, you know, Samantha and Guthrie. And you have to look at, well, she's not a controversial figure like yourself, or say a can of someone where you have people on the left or right. I mean, just being honest, that you've got enemies. You've got people that don't like you. But, you know, Savannah

and Gunthery is, you know, I don't watch your morning show, but I know who she is and she's like a very nice lady. And, you know, what's the most controversial thing she's ever done? Maybe some of her interviews in the past. Well, I mean, she's... No, she's not controversial, but that doesn't rule out some

freak stalker who just interpreted some reports she did as an attack or as some sort of, you know, that element is still alive and well around her. And we can't rule that out that it's some stranger who's obsessed with her. Oh, of course, of course. But then why are you going after the mother unless you're trying to hurt her? So who has a reason to want to hurt Savannah Guthrie? Wouldn't it be a lot? The list would not be long. But go to some of her interviews. And I'm not trying to, I'm not the one coming up with this. This conversation I've had, you know, with virtually Everyone I've talked to you, especially offline when you don't have a two-minute segment on a news channel. She interviewed a lot of the Epstein victims, in-depth interviews with Virginia Goufay and some of the other women.

And what came out a week before this abduction, days before the Fstein files all over the news, and now what is taken over the news media? And maybe that was done in tension. I'm not saying that's the case. But there's more to this group. I do not think it's a traditional kid not for ransom. demonstrating any of the things that are normally associated with people that are in the kidnapping business to make money. And I think it's immediate attention, but you have to go into it that there are evil people out there that will do terrible things to one over human beings.

I dealt with that. You know, we had a woman in Iraq, her name was Margaret Assan. She was the director of CARE International. She was a 5'1, 180-pound Irish woman who'd lived in Iraq for 20-plus years and married a local. She lived the fourth people of Islam. which is our cot. She gave alms to the poor. She fed the poor. She was a beloved woman. And that did not protect her. She was murdered by her captors. And I'm one of the few Americans sadly had to watch that execution video. And it was very troubling, very sad. So there's evil in the world. And no matter how good you are, that doesn't protect you from someone that wants to hurt you. So if you were advising this family at this point, and we are told that the second note did not contain

proof of life, that they're revealing very little about it, but we are told it did not contain proof of life. And we know the first letter said they had Nancy and claimed she was alive, I believe, but did not have proof of life. You saw the video from the family begging for such proof after they received the first note. Would you advise them to pay? Because right now, it's the day of the deadline, 5 p.m. tonight. And TMZ is just reporting that the Bitcoin account allegedly set up to accept these funds is empty. as of this time this morning. It's unclear how long it typically takes accounts to update they write,

but as of now, the confirmed balance in the publicly viewable account stands at zero with no transactions recorded. So at least as of almost 1 p.m. Eastern time, the family has not made any deposits into the Bitcoin account. How would you advise them? Well, this is just very harsh. And, you know, it's only come from experience because I think someone evil enough to hurt an 84-year-old woman

makes feeling okay my initial thoughts again a week ago was a cartel involved in this because close you know proximity to the Arizona the Mexican border the fact that I know the cartels have no problem with kidnapping they're beyond al-Qaeda they're probably the biggest kidnapping ring out there you know formerly the FARC had that title so was that a connection to the FARC excuse me to the cartels because they have a propensity of violence they have kidnapped young social media influencers in Mexico and murdered them so they're not above above the thought. But I, again, I always started with the notion, especially when I would talk to the ambassadors from these countries where they had hostas. I would always be up front with them and say,

sir, you have to begin with the presumption that your citizens that have been kidnapped by this group claiming to be affiliated with Al Qaeda or whoever, that they're not coming home. You have to start with that presumption. And the fact that this group has not shown proof of life. And I really think the media is what they're going for. So we had deadlines come and go without CETA. Jill Carroll, the young Christian science reporter, 28-year-old girl, American girl, she had deadlines come and go, and she was ended up brought home after 83 days of captivity because of pressure put on by special forces, you know, the unit that went out every night to hunt for her. And she was brought home safely because the unit, the kidnapping ring finally said, threw their hands up and said, maybe if we give her up,

these bad dudes will talk coming after us and that's ultimately what happened so the family i would i would strongly recommend to not pay the ransom not pay any of it because uh i i don't think i think that'd be money going into the wind for nothing because um i i don't trust there's no trust um and good faith between this group and the family and they've they've shown none of it and they're just torturing savannah and her family and i i would be blunt enough to speak to the family that let's start with a assumption that your mother did not survive the initial, the initial abduction. And this may have been a home invasion that went wrong. May have been a stalker, as you said, to do the same. But I would recommend strongly against paying the ransom today by that deadline.

What an agonizing decision to have to make at their most vulnerable and weakest. Of course, you'd be at your weakest right now. You're not your strongest mentally or emotionally in the wake of this tragedy. It's awful. Dan, thank you for your expertise and for your service, too. Thank you. Up next, Jim Fitzgerald is back along with Chad Ayers and a lot to go over with them. Don't miss it. Let's be honest. America can still be a dangerous place and you cannot afford to wait for help. Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force could have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force. And that's exactly why so many are turning to Burna. Burna is proudly American,

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former SWAT team leader, Chad Ayers, and former FBI supervisory special agent Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of the Cold Red podcast. Welcome back, gentlemen. Let's start with what President Trump said on Air Force One on Friday. Here it is. You promised Savannah Guthrie's family the full support of federal law enforcement. FBI is now, I'll give you a little statement. I think we're doing very well on that regard. You're probably surprised to hear that. I think we're doing very well, very well meeting. We have some clues, I think, that are very strong. And I think we could have some answers coming up fairly soon.

Is this a search? Is this a search going to Mexico? I'm talking about a search. I'm talking about a solution. We have some things. I think that will maybe come out reasonably soon from DOJ or FBI or whoever. That could be... Yeah, it could be definitive. A lot's taken place in the last couple of hours. A lot of things have happened with regard to that horrible situation in the last couple of hours. Okay.

A lot in there. We're doing very well. We have clues that are very strong. We could have answers very soon. I'm not talking about a search. I'm talking about a solution. We have things that may come out. that could be definitive?

Is there a suspect? And he quickly says, yeah. It's almost as an aside. He says, yeah, things that could be definitive. And then he mentions FBI and DOJ. So let's get right to it, Jim. What does that mean? What did you take away from that?

Yeah, I'm racking my brain, Megan, if I've ever worked a case, which the president directly involved himself. And there's some big ones I worked. And the D.C. sniper and anthrax all happening in the D.C. area, but I don't remember direct and where and we're sort of promises are made. I won't call them promises. Look, I think President Trump's heart is in the right place. He, he, the Guthrie family wants to hear something positive, but you got to be careful with creating too high of expectations. And I guess that was Friday from what you said. So we're looking at now 72 hours since he made

that statement. Maybe some investigators not happy he made that statement. But He said it was definitive or things definitive could happen, yet he was sort of vague at the same time. So is he sometimes investigators, you can actually plan sort of leaks, if you will, to sort of force the hand of a bad guy, whoever they are. I mean, usually it's someone holding someone in custody, someone's present in danger. I can't imagine someone reaching out for the president. Hey, could you drop these lines for us? but no doubt he's in touch with Cash Patel and Bondi. They're in touch with the people in the field on the street there.

And he's echoing something. He wants to give the nation something positive to think about. And I'm not saying he's lying. He's not at all. There may be things that have been developing, but it's a slow burn here. And everyone wants to make everything right. I don't think President Trump was lying at all.

I think President Trump was telling the truth. I think President Trump was excited that he thought we were about to have a breakthrough on this case. And I don't think his people would have told him that if it weren't true. And he's the one who mentioned FBI and DOJ. So it could have been either one or both. You know, it could have been, obviously, we know the FBI is there on the ground and co-hosted the presser that happened on Thursday. But they answered to the DOJ. All their work, if it comes to something, would ultimately be coming to something for the DOJ to potentially do something about it. So they could be equally informed. So who knows?

But I don't think for one second, Chad, that President Trump would have said that if he hadn't been briefed in a way that was promising and that he was feeling like we're getting there. The thing that I found most interesting was if I were Savannah Guthrie and I heard that, I would pick up the phone in a second and call him. He called her last week to tell her whatever you need. And I'd say, what do you have? And then President Trump's in a tough spot because maybe he's not ready to reveal that yet, no matter who it is. And now you're talking to the victim of the crime. I don't know, but what did you glean from it, Chad? You know, Megan, I agree absolutely with what Jim just said.

I will say this. Look, I am a huge supporter of our president. I'm a huge supporter of Cash Patel and what the Attorney General has been doing. But I've got to, you know, we do know that President Trump loves to talk to the media. He loves to speak and throw things out there. But I agree with what Jim said. I agree with what you said. He is in constant contact.

This is such a high profile case. He is in constant contact. with Cash Patel and the boots on the ground. The American people are heavily invested in this case right now. So I think that possibly, you know, he had information coming in. He says in the future, you know, something real soon we're going to hear. I don't know. I think we have to sit back and wait.

But he did, you know, President Trump loves to kind of tease people. Could have answers very soon. Correct. Could have answers very soon. Not talking about a search, talking about a solution. And by the way, remember Chad how we found out that they had arrested the guy they said did the pipe bombing? He was on Fox and Friends for a different hit, a hit about something else. And he was like, hey, by the way, we caught the pipe bar.

It was like, what? The man has a way about how he does things. And that's what makes him who he is. Megan, can I add here? There is a term both you and chat are probably familiar with it called Tickle the Wire. And when you're working at Wiretap, the Title III, as we call it in the feds, there's a way that you're listening. And, of course, you have to minimize at certain times that they're talking about, you know, the wives' cookie recipes or something as opposed to crime. So what the agents would do, though, and what I was part of is you do something.

You have a police car go by the suspect's house. They're involved in something, not necessarily a kidnapping like this, but they're involved in some kind of bad deeds. And you have that where you have, you know, someone knock on the door kind of suspiciously or a letter goes to the out. And then you're waiting to see what they say on the phone when this event happens that you, the investigator, stage. And the nickname for it is tickle the wire. Well, okay. Do we have a version of that in which the president is serving as the tickle the wire force? Because I would tell you something.

He's the tickler. I don't know if she's been called that before, but I'll tell you what, whoever is involved in this, again, we go back to for revenge, for profit, now they're conflated somehow, we're completely separate. Whoever was involved in doing this, one, probably more people who are involved, they may have altered their behavior Friday morning and did something. And if maybe the investigators on the ground, the boots on the ground, as chat said, they didn't plan for President Trump to make this statement, but if nothing else, they should have taken advantage of it. And let's see, who's moving?

Who is someone even very low on the suspect list we have? Who's made a quick call? If we're watching them, we're monitored their phones, who's called someone else? And maybe, hey, did you hear what the president said? Whatever language, potentially. And that could be a clue that the investigators weren't even necessarily looking for or that, you know, initiated themselves, but then something happened afterwards. So it's a known tactic in law enforcement, completely legal.

tickle the wire concept. Usually the wire, of course, is the, is the wire tap of a phone line, cell phone landlines, whatever, also emails. And that could something that could then have and change. The other thing I have to say is I was excited when I heard that because I thought, okay, they've got somebody. They think they know who did it. But then it occurred to me having listened to it now many times. He could have been talking about the ransom letter writer. It could be not the suspect in the kidnapping or the harming of Nancy Guthrie. It could be they've got the person who's writing the notes. Let's listen to it one more time and just think.

Tell me what you think about that possibility. Because solving that is important, but it might not lead us to the kidnapper. It might be two totally different people. So just listen to Trump again. You promised Savannah Guthrie's family the full support of federal law enforcement. FBI is now. I'll give you a little statement. And I think we're doing very well on that regard.

You're probably surprised me hear that. I think we're doing very well, very well, meaning we have some clues, I think, that are very strong. And I think we could have some answers coming up fairly soon. Is this a search going to Mexico? I'm talking about a search. I'm talking about a solution. We have some things, I think, that will maybe come out reasonably soon from DOJ or FBI or whoever. that could be

definitive. Yeah, it could be definitive. A lot's taken place in the last couple of hours. A lot of things have happened with regard to that horrible situation in the last couple of hours. Right. So, Chad, I don't know. Could be either one. Yeah, Megan, let's, let's, I briefly breach this topic with Jim.

The word solution, right? It's not, we haven't just. We have a solution. Hear me out for a second. NBC, right? Obviously, Savannah is one of the highest paid news personalities there is for NBC. I looked that up this morning. Last week was the opening ceremonies.

NBC is hosting opening ceremonies in the Olympics. They also were the ones that hosted Super Bowl last night. All these viewerships. So if this is a solution, could this, again, we have talked about this, but could this be some type of international crime group that's trying to, and I'm not saying that NBC is involved at all, I want to make sure that is clear. Could this be some type of international crime group that is, you know, trying to disrupt everything that's going on? I mean, there's a totally different angle on this, you know, that could be more than just the son-in-law. or just a random maintenance worker. Again, everything's out on the, you know, there's nothing that's not on the table right now.

But Chad, did you see the one report saying that reportedly the money that was requested in ransom note number one said, now we're being told, $4 million if you pay by Thursday, six million if you pay by Monday, U.S. dollars, which has some saying, that doesn't sound like an American. Like when we communicate money figures to one another, we don't say U.S.D. No.

We just say you put the dollar sign and then you put the numeral and then you put million or a thousand or whatever your unit of money is. So that could be some small support for this being international and President Trump possibly, you know, casting a very wide web and getting some sort of a ring in this. Because look, it would, the thing about that that's attractive is, Those are the ones who do kidnappings. Sure. You know, it's not an American thing from all of our experts.

It's just not something that Americans do, but it is something that they do in Latin America. 100%. And I think that's why nothing's off the table. And, you know, he didn't first say that we could hear something from the Pima County Sheriff's Office. He says, we could hear something soon coming from the DOJ or the FBI. Well, and let's face it. There is zero chance that that Pima County Sheriff's Sheriff's. is calling President Trump with updates. Zero.

Like, there's just no way that's what's happening. Trump gets his information from his cabinet secretaries and his own chiefs, people like cash, people like Pam. Those would be the ones who would have the information. Though I really, I am told that the FBI is in more of a helping role in this case and that it is the Pima County Sheriff who is running herd on this. As I say that, this just broke via NBC. And again, you really really.

have to take the NBC news information seriously here because trust me when I tell you they would not want to get out ahead on anything if it hadn't been like blessed by Savannah or if they thought it was going to do anything to compromise the investigation. They report the FBI said it has deployed additional intelligence and agent personnel from its Phoenix office and other FBI field offices now to assist in the investigation. The agency is also staffing a 24-hour command post with agents who investigate incoming leads and tips. Members of the cellular analysis survey team or cast are assisting and continue to collect and process digital data as detectives review and analyze information from various sources, including banks and social

media. All right, Jim, I have a question for you about that last piece. The cellular analysis survey team. So cell phones are everything. They know everything about us, these devices. They know where we've been. They know who we've talked to. They know what we've thought.

And it did occur to me, since we spent time on the, you know, the technology. brother-in-law last week, that if you proceed under the theory that the brother-in-law may have been behind this and also is sending the ransom notes, that would be near impossible. Like the heat on that guy right now and all last week is at a fire level. So there's no way he's sneaking off to the library to fire off these forms. on the local news stations. And by the way, we're told TMZ also has one of those, like a tip line where you can go, and maybe that's why the person chose TMZ, not because they watched TMZ, but it also has one of those forms where you can put on, oh, here's a tip, TMZ. It's Megan Kelly.

Here's my address or my phone number. And my tip is, whatever. So there's zero chance this guy was doing that last week. Now, he might have had an accomplice if he was behind this. And, of course, then there's the other theory we've been actively working on, which is the two are unrelated, whoever took her or hurt her has nothing to do with these notes. It's an opportunist, as you put it, Jim. But do you agree with my premise that if we're pursuing the line of the brother or any one of the family, there is zero chance that person was in a position to send ransom notes last week? Megan, as we discussed a few times last week, whenever a profiler and a behavioralist looks at a crime,

series of crimes, you look at pre-offense behavior, of course the crime itself, post-offense behavior. It's one thing trying to determine what an unknown subject, unsub, as we said in the bureau, is doing post-offense behavior, changing their disguise, leaving the scene, sometimes injecting themselves into a crime scene, calling in false tips or certainly following the media. But if you have someone who is within those concentric circles, I'm not going to call the brother-maw suspect, but he is someone, of course, that is being looked at, it would be, you said, zero chance, I would say virtually impossible. maybe less than zero, that he's out there putting these ransom demand email communications, whatever they are, multiple ones now in that regard. There's no way he's doing that. Look, whoever this may be, and it was a revenge thing that, well, it was for profit to begin with, maybe they're doing that now.

It was a revenge thing. And as I said last week, laying out all the options, perhaps in someone, well, let me cover up my tracks by doing this. I don't really want the money, but let's let the, FBI and the sheriff department chase after these people. So there are multiple avenues here. And all we would have needed was the kidnap note, like other kidnappings that we discussed already this week from Norway to Frank Sinatra Jr. and the Bronx and whatever, just something that we proved, that was proven that the kidnappers are the same people who abducted Mrs.

Guthrie. We just don't have that so far. And for the brother, he's, I don't, brother-in-law, whatever we want to call him, Tomaso. So he has to be in the suspect. Well, everyone does in that close concentric circle. But I would find it he is the equivalent of a criminal mastermind and he need. If he can in fact, you know, send off these emails with no one else even knowing that in law enforcement. Not to mention his family. Go ahead, Chad.

Megan, you obviously have more of a personal relationship. You obviously know Savannah better than any. Well, you have a different type of relationship with her than we. do. I've spent a lot of time with her personal and professional. Sure. It would be very hard. We know that the Bureau and the Sheriff's Office has likely separated these parties to conduct their interviews with all family members. I find it very hard with the last video that was released and them holding hands and all this thing. We've got her brother who was a fighter pilot. I would find it very hard to think that two people, if they had any inclination that their

sister and brother-in-law were involved in this case, that they would be able to put on some bullshit face, you know, and act like nothing's wrong. And we're, you know, a close family. And that if they really believe that the in-laws are involved. Let me ask you this, Chad. I agree. I I don't think Savannah suspects her sister at all. And I haven't heard anybody report anything about the sister being involved in this in any way other than she's married to the brother-in-law. And that report we know of originating with Ashley Banfield. So, yeah. I agree with you. But there's been a lot of activity at the sister's home, at Annie's home. Now, there was a search earlier this week. Then there was a search Saturday night that NBC News,

again, was sure to report this morning, was by consent, meaning Annie and presumably Tomas, the homeowners, gave consent. But we also haven't seen Tomas. And so I don't want to presume without knowing that he's still in good standing with the family. We have no idea whether he is. It is a possibility that even Andy is saying, oh my God, why do they keep searching our house? Is it possible that Tomas was involved? I doubt it. I don't, like I'm just saying the fact that they're sitting there holding hands, I agree. There is no chance to suspect her sister of anything, nor is anybody been able to accuse her sister of anything.

However, it doesn't really tell us anything about the brother-in-law chat. Yeah, it would be very confusing. And it would be raised a lot of eyebrows if all of a sudden Tomas was involved. all this Bitcoin gets delivered or cryptocurrency, whatever it is, gets to him. And all of a sudden, you know, next year, there's a lot of family vacations to Turks and Caicos and a new Lambo sitting in your... That's how they catch you. Right. Like, you're done. You're done. They can't trace the Bitcoin, but eventually when you get the Bitcoin, you have to, you have to cash it in. At some point. If you want to enjoy it. And that's how they get you because they have like a small circle of suspects.

And, you know, you may think you can outweigh the feds, but they can outweigh you. and, you know, five years from now, you suddenly have $6 million you didn't have and, you know, you have some working class job. You're in trouble. But here's the thing, Jim. They keep going back to Annie's and Tomas's home. And they went back at night. And yes, it was low-key.

It was three guys and beat up cars. It wasn't the full force of the FBI with the gloves and the, you know, the command, you know, the way the FBI can burst in. I know how the FBI can burst in because my neighbor in my old building got the FBI treatment at 5 a.m. One day when they arrested him for allegedly being a mini made off. And then I had the misfortune of riding the elevator up with him when he bailed out. And I had heard it was all over the news. We were in the elevator together. And I didn't know what to say to him.

So he's sitting there with his lawyer going back up to his apartment. And I'm sitting there going back up to my apartment. And I came up with the following. Don't let the bastards get you down. I was, what am I saying? It was you who said that. I'm kidding. I wasn't there.

It was so, no, it's very awkward. I'm like, I'm not good in these situations. I don't find the right words. Okay, but my point is simply, we don't know why they keep going back to Annie and Tomas's house. And this is where I wanted, I've been, all weekend I've been wanting to ask you guys about this. Because I really thought we made some progress on Friday when we really were analyzing the timeline that it had been given the day before. Came up with it was a 40-minute, 41-minute time stint that we think the perpetrator was in the house. If you go from 147, when they disconnected the nest cameras

to 228, when her pacemaker stopped communicating with the iPhone that was in her house, 41 minutes. And we spent a lot of time on how, why does it take 41 minutes to kidnap an 84-year-old woman? And is it possible that they killed her? That that's what happened in that 41-minute stint. But then we got to the point where we just did not think that could be the case because the pacemaker, the pacemaker would have shown the cardiac event ending her life if it happened prior to 228 a.m. So that pacemaker is really everything. But then over the weekend I got to thinking, how much do we really know about the pacemaker? Like, is it possible, guys, that because like all we know is that she got far enough away from the iPhone that it stopped recording. events. But like, is it possible the police know there was something catastrophic that happened on that pacemaker prior to 228? They haven't told us anything about her heart or anything about the pacemaker, except that it disconnected from the iPhone at 228 a.m. Now, they then launched this big thing where they said, we think she's still alive. And so they could be lying to us. But is it because

My takeaway watching all these searches was they think she might have been killed at Annie's house. That's one of the possibilities. Why are they going over there for three hours taking pictures in the night, lighting it up with something? I don't know. Again, this is the second time back there. When we have been told the crime scene is at Nancy's house. So they keep going back to Annie's house where she had dinner that night. And so what is the actual proof that the mother was delivered back to her home at 947?

with the garage door closing two minutes later that night? Like, what is the proof that that actually was Nancy Guthrie getting delivered back into her garage? And what is the proof that there was nothing on the pacemaker, you know, from any point in the evening up to 2.28 a.m. Yeah, proving the negative is always a tough task for, in any situation, much less criminal investigation. And I guess you're right. I mean, especially with the way the sheriff changed his explanation of we know she was dropped off at whatever it was, 947, and then we know, oh, the family said they dropped her off at this time. We're only going on that eyewitness account from the family members, one or more. Again, it's not clear.

Purposely probably so, but maybe on the part of even the family, without speculating there. But there's a lot of questions. The pacemaker part and the irregular activity that would show, I mean, they do show, and I've worked cases in recent past more as a consultant than in the FBI, especially people of these Apple watches that are hooked up to it. You know, same principle. You can actually see when a person dies. And it makes a medical examiner's job much easier than just looking at undigested food and issues like that. and it certainly can add to it.

So why, though, would the fact, if they think she died at one house or the other, Megan, then the family is making these pleas to bring her back. It's just, it's just so confusing on my part in that regard. I agree. It's so confusing. So this is where I went. If you trust in the pacemaker and you trust in the fact that the police aren't going to be doing

this wild goose chase knowing that the pacemaker showed she died, you know, earlier in the evening. If they think she died, you know, at 8.30 or at, or nine o'clock, then that would explain the search at Annie's house perfectly, right? Because she was at Annie's house at that time. But that's not what they're saying. They're saying she went back home. They are engaging in the goose chase.

So presumably it's not wild. And they do believe she was alive when she left the house at 228 a.m. So what are they doing at Annie's house? Why are they back at annie's and Tomaz's for three hours taking pictures, Chad? Is it checking out their shoes, their boots? Why is it that Nancy Ubered to the house for dinner but didn't Uber back? They're saying they drove her back because if she Ubered back, we would have a definite interview from whatever that Uber driver was and saying,

no, I dropped her off. Like you said, we're solely going off of the family saying we drove her back and we dropped her off because we had the doorbell or the, you know, let's be honest, nobody's going to remember the exact time. They're basing it off this, you know, the garage door activation. So is it not odd if mom Ubered over for dinner? But we drove her back. And then they mentioned that they were there playing games as a family.

That tells me that, and they said with the grandkids. So we know there's multiple. I would find it very hard that you would commit a homicide in front of your own children of their grandmother if they, in fact, were there. And again, the pacemaker would presumably show that her life ended. well prior to 2.30 or 228 in the morning. But that suggests to me that then it was things inside the house that may be evidentiary. So what are they? I mean, are they looking for clothing that maybe reflects mud or time in a water tank? Are they looking for boots and whatever mud may be on, like, what would they be photographing? And they did remove some evidence. They came out with bags.

And by the way, they came out wearing blue gloves. Does that tell you anything? I don't know if, like, the standard FBI is like a clear glove and the blue glove is something to deal with chemicals. I have no idea. But they were wearing gloves. So obviously they were trying to protect, at least against their fingerprints, getting all over this place. And to me, it seems, Jim, that they were treating it as a potential crime scene. Everything and every place associated with Nancy Guthrie right now has to be considered a potential crime scene.

And there are multiple crime. Whenever this thing is resolved, we hope it is. Obviously, inside the house by the front door is a crime scene of Mrs. Guthrie. And then the vehicle that was used to transport her, we're thinking it was a vehicle of some sort. And then if she was being held somewhere or put into a place in the ground or undercover, that's yet a third crime scene. Sometimes people go out and move remains. That could be then a fourth crime scene.

So now we're not looking outside at this point. Now we're back at Annie's house in her husband's house. They feel they have some basic information that they just want to tie some loose ends and they are doing it. And Megan, you brought up on Friday or so when I said they really need to get into some more intense interviews, perhaps polygraphs. Well, they don't want the lawyer up. So that would explain why I get that part of you always have to walk that thin line. You don't want to press it too hard. So they don't lawyer up.

It has to be custodial interview within their house, of course. Miranda doesn't apply there. They're not in custody. So they can do it a lot at lower key, some friendly type people. Hey, just a few more questions. We all remember the famous Colombo show. One more question as he's walking out the door. Yeah, that would do this.

That's the one that would get you. That's right. But they would do this, not so much walk out the door, but coming in the second time. It would be interesting to know whether they're announced visits or they're set up in advance there. Megan either. We're told it was consensual. That's all we know. Yeah, but whether the knock on the door was agreed to in the past, you know, an hour or two before or something else.

Megan, I like- Well, I don't think they were there. I think they've moved to a hotel. Keep going. Whether we do it right now or another segment, I talked to one of the last kidnappings ever that occurred in the U.S., one of the last, was that Sydney-Riso kidnapping back in 92. And one of the agents now long retired, but he walked me through some of the things about that case. And I think from context perspective, it's very important to look at that case and others in how that played out. And because on the fourth day, it turns out that Mr. Riso died. And yet the husband and wife couple, so happens a husband and wife, he was former law enforcement, they kept up the facade for like 54 days or so that they were live trying to get the money. And the amount they wanted, by the way, $6 million today.

and where NBC may put some of it up even, not just Savannah. They wanted, those kidnappers wanted, and Exxon was willing to pay $18.5 million back in 1992 for the kidnapping, legitimate kidnapping of their executive, in which on the first day a letter came in the mail because I think the local police with the Exxon credit card of Mr. Riso in there. So those kidnappers really played it.

Well, his newspaper was delivered every day when people used to get newspapers, but the kidnappers went out that morning and pulled the newspaper down to the bottom of the driveway. Pretty big house, maybe something like where Mrs. Guthrie lived. So he had to walk farther down the driveway to get the newspaper. And that way they could jump out the husband and wife and grab him, throw him in the back of vent. They had to shoot him in the arm to get under control there. Then he goes and dies four days later because he had a bad heart.

But they kept that hidden. He wound up his body found in the bind barons of New Jersey 54 days later because a bunch of calls given. They were communicating the whole time. And the point is, it's a very bad situation with that kidnapping. I hate to use the word legitimate, but it was an actual slash legitimate, real for-profit, stranger kidnapping, all those qualifiers you have to put in there back in 92. And that's how these guys worked at. A lot of miscommunications between the kidnappers and Exxon.

And so who knows what's been missing in this particular case in terms of communications? technology is a little better now. But that was just one bizarre case. Jim, we were talking about it in the first hour, where, you know, where is the obvious communication about facts only Nancy would know? They, they haven't done it, and they haven't done it for a reason. And now the second demand doesn't seem to renew the money demand. That was only in the first demand. But the Bitcoin address stands. They haven't changed that. There's no deposit in it. And Jim, you're the linguist.

Listen to the Savannah video with the siblings. It's a shift. I mean, they sounded very grim in their first two videos. Don't get me wrong. But there's definitely a shift tonally. The first one was like, she's got grandchildren. They cover her in kisses. She's spunky.

She's fun. You know, Mama, we're looking for you. The whole world is looking for you, Mommy. And then this. Here it is again. We received. lead your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her.

This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay. A lot in there, Jim, you've got so that we can celebrate with her. Also now they're begging. We beg you to return our mother. And then the, this is the only. way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay. The peace is very valuable to us and we will pay return her so that we can celebrate with her. What does that mean to you?

Yeah, there's a lot in there. I much prefer to be analyzing the communications from the alleged kidnappers, but we'll stick with this for now because we don't have any access to that. Yeah, it almost sounds like, and Chad knows this very well, we've both been there. When your investigation of some sort of a missing person, it could even be a boat accident or something, it goes from rescue to recovery. And it almost sounds like the family members have morphed into that category. Why they felt they wanted to put a message out because they want to celebrate that, not in the way we look at celebration with a birthday party or surprise party. saying goodbye, perhaps. A celebration of life is a very common term nowadays.

And perhaps that's what they're seeing. Just tell us where she is. We'll pay you this sum, whatever, if it's $6 million, as we're hearing. USDA, which again makes it even more interesting, as you pointed out earlier. They're willing to do that, but there is a somberness about them. There is like they know something. Perhaps what President Trump was referencing on Friday, somehow that information came to fruition and it was passed to the family.

It was all he used the term was solution. And of course, I picked up when President Trump said it was reasonably soon. What does that mean? Hours, days, weeks. That can be clarified in many different ways. So it does seem to have a different, there does seem to be a different persona, collective persona reflected in that last message. And I just hope they're wrong about it.

I still want to think she's alive. I still want to think the investigators are looking to rescue her or at least have her released. And I'm assuming the task force is bifurcated, those looking at everyone around Mrs. Guthrie, you know, housekeepers, all the people we talked about before, then the other side of the team looking at a possible kidnapping. I'm hoping they're bringing the CIA in, an NSA in terms of you can put anonymizers on your computers. You're pretty good for local law enforcement, even federal. But I'd like to think that our system, our federal government, you know, the spooks out there, the spies know how to truly penetrate a, you know, an anonymizing type system and take this back to Eastern Europe or sub-Sahara Africa, wherever these demands are coming from.

And I'm not getting anything away here. The NSA does not mess around. That is the group that knows everything. And they do know what phone, what cell phones for sure were in this area. on last Saturday night between the hours of 8 and 3 a.m. I guarantee you they know that, and that was probably one of the first things they did once the Fed's gotten involved in this. Real quick, I'll go to Chad, but there's domestic and there's foreign FBI, domestic, CIA, foreign NSA, etc.

Trump said, no, you guys work together. We want this information out there. Yeah, I completely agree. Obviously, the three-letter agencies, listen, we found Osama bin Laden, right? And we had the technology to find the most well-known violent terrorist in the world. But if this video is more of just return the body, we want our mom, we want to have a celebration of life, why do we still have this 5 p.m. or 5.30 p.m. deadline of Monday, if for some reason, if one of the letters said that, and then they are giving us this intel, I mean, I get it, not everything's rosy and, you know,

it's kind of confusing to me. Well, and would you, would you recommend they pay? Here we are. It's almost two o'clock Eastern. They say we will pay. It's very valuable to us. We will pay. I mean, the implicit thought is, if you give her back to us, we will pay. The question is, which comes first? But they are very aware. This is not an unsophisticated group. I mean, Savannah, I definitely, Savannah's not unsophisticated. they're very well aware that this could, and almost certainly would be, flushing $6 million down the drain that you will never see again that some con man will take and leave. And they might be back next week with more bites at the apple. I mean, you know, you could do this game in perpetuity. Like, you waited too long, whatever.

Because you got the feds involved, the price went up. We want another four. You know, it's just like, I have to say, I don't think I'd pay it if I were in this. Who can say, right? I mean, that's such a, I agree. Like, we are not in that, we are not in that position to know what that feels like. If my mother, and obviously we keep talking about these agencies, whether it is the CIA, NSA, the Bureau, whoever, I don't know. Is there technology?

Are there ways there, we got some smart people out here to say, okay, we will pay. We want her. And there's some way for these agencies. to track the money in some type of covert or clandestine way. There's got to be. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think Bitcoin, once that's gone, it's gone forever, unfortunately. It was funny, you know, I've been talking to my mom a lot this week for obvious reasons. And she made me laugh because I was telling her all the terrible things she should do, God forbid, she got kidnapped. You know, we had to make light out of it because it's gallows humor

and you got to do it. And she said she's all set. My mom's all set. She's all set. She's got her Louisville slugger, and she's got her makeup foundation right next to her lazy boy. So she wants to look good, but she's ready to fight. And I laughed. You know what I'm so lucky that my mom's there. And she and I can laugh about this. And, you know, it's a coping mechanism. But I am thinking, I look at those grim faces of Savannah and her siblings.

And it's like, there's no laughing. There's no good outcome at this point. You can tell they don't believe she's alive anymore. but like they can't be sure because of this torturer with the notes. It's like I feel like if the notes hadn't come, by this point, they'd probably be accepting someone did something terrible to mom. But like at some point, Savannah, she's got young kids of her own. She's got to go back home.

She has to take care of her children. You know, she has obviously a career back here too. That's secondary. But how long can this go on, Chad? You know, it's like at what point does even law enforcement look at the siblings and say, we've done all we can do. It's rare you have to look at the family and say it's officially now cold. And that's one thing we have not discussed, right?

This could very well turn in to be a cold case. And obviously every agency has cold case units that it's not like this is going to be pushed to the back burner. It's too high profile of a case. People are going to continue to work on this case nonstop. I'll tell you what, you know, you bringing up the conversations you had with your mom, I'll tell you the sad part of all this. We live in a sick world and there are sick people. I am very afraid all the publicity this has got,

we are going to start seeing some type of copycat attacks. Oh, God. It's so awful and dark, but yeah. I mean, there is a report in the Daily Mail that NBC has amped up security for all of its anchors. And, you know, we were asking, like, how about their family members? Because sadly, this is not, if this is an attack on Savannah Guthrie, then all the family members are in jeopardy too. You hate to even say it out loud, Jim.

But yeah, obviously everybody who's in the public eye has to consider this right now. Yeah, and if the precedent is established in this case, we pay money with no proof of life. And if the mother's released, okay, that's one thing. But if she's not going to be with no proof of kidnappers, they know the rules. I mean, they've obviously advanced with technology, Bitcoin as opposed to, you know, bowling ball bags of $20 bills. But, you know, those types of things have shifted and how communications are, are rendered. But they know that you have to, you have to follow through on your plan or it's never going to work again.

Yeah. And that's why it's, it's, that they have an obligation too. In a way, yes. It's the criminal code. All right. We'll play this game with you. And I mean, game in a very, you know, very basic form definition. But you know, you got to play by the rules here too.

And if money goes out for her and she is released, that's a bad precedent. If money goes out and she's never released, never found, that's a bad precedent also for future behavior on the parts of these criminal gangs, either, you know, internal to the U.S. or external to the U.S. in which they could just go along and do this. This would be such an easy payday for this group, whoever they are, of $6 million, if not more. whatever it is today if this deadline isn't met. So I hate to think the precedent's been created when for almost 100 years now,

you could count on almost literally one hand these exact type of kidnappings. And now with all the publicity this is getting, it may just happen again, and we all have to be careful. That's one of the things like our friend Billy Bush, who I love, he's awesome. He also worked at NBC for a very short stint before they blew him up.

he was saying he thinks NBC should pay the money. I mean, this is a rounding error for NBC corporate. That's very clear. But there are strategic considerations in not paying. And you just touched on him, Jim. You know, it's like NBC has a lot of executives and talent. It employs with a lot of family members who are not behind the fortification that the main star is. and, you know, does forking over 6 million out of NBC coffers jeopardize or endanger other people there or their family, you know, or even at other news organizations?

Like the whole thing's very complicated. It's complicated for Savannah and her siblings, too. You know, it's like they, I'm sure they're well aware the odds are, even if they put this $6 million in there by 5 p.m. today, they're never going to see their mom again. You know, they're not dumb. But the thing that must be governing them in the dark moments is, but there's a chance. There's a chance. You know, like, I can see the discussions, Chad. Like, they knew about the watch. It was so specific. You know, they did know about the floodlight.

And how did they see that? It was on the exterior of the house, but it wasn't exactly prominent. I don't know. You know, it's, I guarantee you they don't, well, I guess I shouldn't guarantee. I assume they do not think it was anyone in their family, including the brother-in-law, et cetera. And there have been enough trickles outside of the family that they can go with that, credibly. You know, the white van that was seen in the neighborhood.

Over the weekend, a neighbor reported that Nancy Guthrie's roof looked too white. I guess these Tucson natives all know what the roofs of their houses look like, and they're usually pretty dirty. And she was like, that shows me she must have had it recently painted. So look into whether there were painters there. I see, had another contractor you maybe didn't think about. You probably thought about the weekly gardener or whoever, but a maid service, that's good. Okay, yes, they're probably looking into that lead right now. They found the camera.

I forgot to mention that in the whole two hours today. They found a camera, a third camera on the roof of the house, Chad. When they searched on Friday night, like, how do we not know about that? Okay, we didn't know about that. That seems like an important one. I guarantee she probably wasn't paying for that one to record either. if she wasn't, I guess I shouldn't guarantee, again, because there was something online with Nancy Guthrie asking around about what kind of a camera is best to record wildlife with. And so it is possible for that one if that was her required wildlife camera, you know, the wildlife comes out at night.

So maybe she did actually pay for that one to record. I don't know. But my point is simply all of this stuff will give you plenty and should give us plenty of fodder to go down the lane of it was a stranger abduction. The ransoms are real. And for $6 million we can be. know. Yeah, I mean, going back to the roof, like, that's, that's, Jim will tell you, this is like basic police 101, right? Plenty of times suspects have left and in a panic, tossed something on top of a roof. I'm not sure this was the first time. It appears like it was the first time they actually got on the roof and started searching. But I do think the sheriff has admitted he kind of dropped the ball on some of this investigation, delaying some of these things, especially getting their pilot up and, you know, not reaching out to the bureau for a little bit of time. I think, you know, but I want to be careful.

I don't, it's easy for us sitting back here to armchair quarterback, the sheriff's actions. But this is not a normal type of case that they are faced with, you know, frequent. Nobody in the country is faced with this frequently. So I do want to give a little bit of grace. I'm not going to give grace to him going to the basketball game, that's for sure. Yeah. I want to ask another question, guys, that I've been meaning to ask. why did they search Nancy Guthrie's home, sorry, Annie Guthrie's home at night?

Brian Enton spoke with a former Pima County Sheriff's deputy who said, typically they do it after they learn the information that's relevant. Like someone said something that they said, oh, shoot, we should go over there and check that out. And it could just be a matter of they learned something interesting at 6 p.m. that night. They called Annie and Tomas and said, do we have your permission to go into the house? And they said, sure, go for it. So it could be that simple. But does it strike you as odd? Because in the darkness, is that the best time to go in?

And the media is there 24-7. This couldn't have been about avoiding the media because they know as well as we do. They're camped out there and you're going to get caught doing what you're doing. Now, maybe it's harder for the media to see in. But the media saw the cameras going off. You can see this video we're playing here. They saw the flashes going off. They knew that they were doing investigative police work.

in there, Jim. Megan, am I correct in assuming this was Saturday night, six o'clock, seven o'clock, that they were at Annie's house. So that would- It ended at, I think, it was 7.30 to 10-30 or about there. So coincidentally, or not, planned or not, one week to the hour, they went back to the house when ostensibly Mrs. Guthrie was last seen, or at least spent time with family members there. And the agents just wanted to see the outside the lighting elements. I mean, they may have been searching for other things too. Obviously, DNA of Mrs. Guthrie of Nancy or certainly

fingerprints wouldn't mean anything because she's there all the time. So they just perhaps wanted to go back the exact week after it happened, just like I'm hoping there were road stops out there around two in the morning through 6 a.m. Sunday morning in that area one week after the fact. So it could be a very practical reason or it could be more inflated that we don't know about. Stand by. There's newsbreaking on the case. I think Chad's got a run. Jim's going to stay with us. Chad, if you can stay, you're welcome to stay too. And we will be right back with more with the guys. You know Pure Talk's favorite holiday? It's President's Day because they believe wireless service should cost you only a couple of presidents.

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SiriusXM 11 and on the Sirius XM app. Jim and Chad are back with me. Guys, two things just in. NBC's Kelly O'Donnell, just reporting that President Trump, has been, quote, closely following the Guthrie investigation and, quote, receiving frequent updates, end quote, citing Caroline Levitt, who did not hold a press briefing, so we're not totally sure. Maybe she just reached out to her directly. He's been closely following it and he's been receiving frequent updates. Left unsaid is from whom exactly, because that appears to be the person that told him that other stuff. Trump would not come out there and just say all that stuff about, you know, we're close.

We're doing very well. We have clues that are very strong. Could have answers very soon. Not regarding a search, but regarding a solution. We have things that may come out. Could be definitive. Reasonably soon. Is there a suspect?

He says, yeah, but it's a passing sort of quick exchange. So I'm not 100% sure he meant to say there's a suspect in any event. That's the latest from the White House. and now the Daily Mail just dropping this piece as we signed off from the 2 o'clock hour, and there's something in here that's relevant to something we've been discussing. The headline of the piece is anguished Savannah Guthrie rushes to $1.2 million desert hideaway amid FBI search at Sister Annie's home and as 5 p.m. ransom deadline looms. And it's all about how she, her brother, her sister, and they say her brother-in-law have moved into this mansion,

which is in a gated community, which is good. as they wait this thing out and we'll refrain from giving any of the other details of where they're staying since it's unnecessary. But almost as a throwaway in here, you guys, the Daily Mail, which is the one that broke the news that she wasn't attending church in person, that she was, Nancy Guthrie was attending it online via a live stream that was not visible to the congregants, leaving us all to wonder, how would the family have been alerted that she wasn't at church? Church answers its own question in here without really calling attention to the fact that they've solved a mystery of their own creation. They write, they're going through the timeline of the night in question. Her pacemaker disconnected from an app on her phone suggesting she had moved out of range. And then they write, the alarm was not raised until the following day when Nancy failed to join a group of friends who had been due to watch an online service at St. Andrews

Presbyterian church together that morning. At 1156 a.m., Nancy's family arrived to her home and so on. So if that's true, that she wasn't going, I mean, it's kind of odd. She wasn't going to church since COVID, presumably because of the germ factor. I don't know. But she was gathering with friends to watch the church. Like if you gather with her, whatever, that may have been her habit. If that's true, then it would explain how things went down that morning.

but it would not clear up the discrepancy in the timing as the police changed the timeline dramatically at that Thursday presser. You know, Nanos was all over the news media saying that the family had called, had arrived at the house around 11, 1110, and didn't call them until 1157. Sorry, just afternoon. And he was like, oh, it took him an hour to look for her. And then at that presser, he just completely changed it to. It only took him seven minutes to call us.

They arrived to 1157 and they called it four after. That has not been explained. But if that's true about her watching generally the online service with friends and she didn't show up to the friend group, that would explain it, I think. Okay. But now I want to shift to discussing what they were searching, you guys. They went to the back of the property, Nancy's property, and they removed this, we're calling it a manhole cover because that's what it looks like. And they shoved like some long pole down there. We believe it might have been a water tank.

some sort because it doesn't look like a septic tank, given how casual the guy is. He's not dressed in a mask or anything. And we reportedly put a metal detector down there. So what do you think is happening here, Chad? Yeah, I think, first of all, with the metal detector aspect, they're going to see if any type of, you know, weapon was disregarded into this area. I think that's a mixture of a weapon or also looking for a body. Listen, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, do have confirmation that there are agencies out there conducting grid searches. Now, I did, I think I asked on Friday, or it might have been yesterday with a team of people we were discussing this, they said there's not a lot of grid searching going on right there in that immediate area.

I find that very interesting. Now, granted, I've pulled this location up on a map. I've looked at the topography of it, and we do see. We have seen some maps being attached to vehicles. I would assume that there would be an intense grid search going on. And if there's not an intense grid search going on, it makes me believe that the Bureau is truly believing she is not in that immediate area. But good police work, I would still, I'm not trusting these kidnappers. I'm still going to conduct a grid search, you know, of all over that area. I'm going to put guys on horseback. I'm going to have Bortak come in because they are very good at working in that type of terrain. But it would be interesting, Megan, you know, I know you've got some of your team.

team that should be arriving pretty soon. So I would love to know what it looks like around the area of that residence. Is there boots on the ground searches being conducted in that immediate vicinity? And also what we did hear on Saturday night that they did a grid search. They used that term grid search Saturday night over at Nancy's property. You know, we talked about the search at Annie's property. But at Nancy's property, they had a grid search going as well, we were told. And, Chad, they also had these maps laid out, like, on the side of their vehicles, like the side of a Jeep or an SUV.

They're showing it here, a pickup truck. And I can't quite see it from here, but it's like it's the neighborhood. It's like the streets of this neighborhood. And obviously, they're very interested in, I don't, I mean, I don't know what they're searching for. Is it, is it a weapon? Is it Nancy? Well, I would have a lot better direction on this, Megan, if we also knew, have we seen dogs on the ground? Are we using bloodhounds? Are we using cadaver dogs? Are we using patrol dogs that can conduct article searches? You know, canines can I can give them a command and anything with human odor on it, whether it's a car key, you know, evidence can be found by canines. These are all questions. And look, we've had drones up, news drones up. We've had news. helicopters up. I have not seen many dogs being deployed out in that area. But again, I'm not there.

These are questions that I would love to know. I heard a former FBI agent speaking with Brian over the weekend saying obviously the animal factor is very dark to consider, but you do have to consider it because they gave up the search and rescue within 24 hours. And so if God forbid, Nancy were killed and left out in that desert. You know, anything could have happened to her by now. And if her remains are gone, so is evidence. But this FBI agent Jim was talking about how the FBI would have her as a matter of course. If they're searching an area like this, like in the desert, they would gather animal scat,

meaning like feces. And they would examine it for bones and huge. human hair, not all of which can be digested even by an animal. So like the game is not necessarily over if, God forbid, you're trying to find a murder victim and the animals have gotten to this person before the searchers have. I know this is all extremely macabre, but this is what guys like you have to think about. Yeah, and I'm familiar with research done on body farms, which people donate their bodies and academics and law enforcement. They put the bodies out in various types of terrains, underground, above ground, cold, warm, with animals, with insects. And a lot of different

things have been learned over the last few years, last, you know, quarter of a century, really, since I know it's been going on. So they are very aware. Wait, wait, wait. Can you just explain that? Are you saying that, like, somebody who, instead of donating their body to science to be like a cadaver in a med school, they donate it to a body farm so people can just see what happens to it if you put out in the wilderness or something? Oh, and there's video cameras they put on the bodies and they test it every day, temperatures. I mean, all kinds of factors. So we know strictly for these types of operations. And none of us want to go here today about Nancy Guthrie, but these are factors that, you know, they're flying in other teams, you know, into this task force area in Tucson. And that person, hey, this is our specialty. Let us go out and do this. So, of course, they're looking into the, with their wells, septic tanks, whatever they are with different types of devices. And Megan, it was early last week, I think I said to you. I'm hoping they really checked the property of Mrs. Guthrie, including the pool room with a filter,

chlorinator's cap, and of course by extension, any type of a well in her property, water tower, in the area, anything like that. So this is very logical they have to do. I'll tell you, and Chad can relate to this, I'm sure. No investigator out there, nor his or her supervisor. When we'll just say Mrs. Guthrie is found. wants to be the one to say, why didn't you check there? Didn't we tell you to do that?

Or isn't that, you know, Forensics 101 or, you know, grid search 101? So they want to make sure they're covering every track. But not just for that reason, because they want to get it done right. And they've had a week now, over a week, and they're now looking at every single option that they may not have explored. And quite frankly, they should go over it again. I've been in cases where local law enforcement academies, you know, the recruits, they could be in for two weeks or two months, they're emptied and maybe 40 or 60 people, they're not getting as many recruits anymore as they used to. But certainly they would bring them in, bust them in.

They're the ones doing these crime scene grid searches. And they really should be doing that. Every single square inch of that area should be searched, search warrants or not, if they're needed, to look for shallow graves. There's ground penetrating radar that's out there. And that's very sophisticated. You can find movement of the earth. You can see that from above. So there's all kinds of things they're going to do.

And that's why I said this team is, it's bifurcated. We're working to kidnapping. We're working that someone else just took her and dropped her off. And of course, there are sub teams on each one of those trying to put this together. New people are flying in from all different types of agencies. They come up with ideas. Sure, nothing's worked so far. Let's go out and check this place.

and that's kind of what they're doing there. I mean, I hate to say it, but the pacemaker would still be there. You know, I mean, the pacemaker is not something that an animal would consume. I'm sorry to get so graphic. It's just as we see them doing grid search after grid search in her backyard, I think we all know exactly what they're looking for. One of two things. Clues from the kidnapper slash perpetrator and or Nancy and her remains.

And, you know, I mean, that's, that's, why you do a grid search generally, and you're looking for evidence. And I saw them put that metal detector down there, Chad. And all I could think was, would it detect a pacemaker? Would a metal detector? And I actually just did a quick search online. It was like, well, it might. It actually might. And they give people who have pacemakers. It sounds like kind of conflicting advice about going through a magnetometer, like maybe just tell people who are going to wand you that you have it. They tell them. It's not going to hurt you if you get wanded. But like you don't want the the wand to linger in front of the pacemaker for too long because it could kind of change the

wavelength or whatever. But it's possible that they were, they were hoping to catch, you know, that piece of metal. And maybe that could be an identifying, God forbid, the worst has happened an identifying thing that is left behind. Sorry, again, it's dark, but that's the story that we're covering. The other thing they seized, Chad, and maybe it's just what you guys are saying, was now they seized Nancy's car. Now. I mean, literally a week after she went missing. But there's not as far as I know, even an allegation that she drove this car during any of the relevant time frame. Well, not just that. We also know that why didn't, you know, she may have had a car, but we also know we're dealing with an 84-year-old

lady with a lot of health conditions, you know, questions that we haven't heard is, does she still actively drive? And if she does, you know, is it possible, you know, that she was out, driving and there is trace DNA from someone that was in her car, whether it is a work or, again, going back to the home health care or someone else. I think that that is just good police work to do a complete analysis of that vehicle as well and see if there were any fibers in that vehicle. Again, we have to do... Like you had a situation where they were dragging her out of the house and they said, you know, put her in the car, for a second while we get right. Yeah, like in other words, why wouldn't you check it? Why wouldn't,

why wouldn't you take that down to the lab and swab every inch of it? Wait, that just reminded me. Think about the timeline. Friday night, we saw a video, courtesy of Fox News, of them on the rooftop finding that that camera. There is 100% a camera on the top of Nancy Guthrie's roof. And earlier that week, it had been circulating online, and I had seen it myself. There was a post by Nancy Guthrie online, I don't know, a while back, it was a couple years ago saying, what's the best camera for watching wildlife? And various people weighed in. She wanted to see like the coyotes in her backyard, who, again, are mostly nighttime creatures. So it is possible, you guys, that that camera did have some sort of a recording capacity to it. Clearly, the Pima County Sheriff

missed it because he wouldn't have left a camera sitting there from Sunday to Friday if he knew about it. And it does, it does get kind of interesting that it was Friday night that President Trump later made his comments. Didn't he just, can we just hear it one more time? Forgive me for playing it one more time. Can we hear Trump one more time? President, you have promised Savannah Guthrie's family the full support of federal law enforcement. that the eye is now... I'll give you a little statement. I think we're doing very well on that regard.

You're probably surprised to hear that. I think we're doing very well. Very well, meeting. We have some clues, I think, that are very strong. And I think we could have some answers coming up fairly soon. Is this a search going to Mexico? I'm talking about a search. I'm talking about a solution.

We have some things. I think that will maybe come out reasonably soon. from DOJ or FBI or whoever, that could be definitive. A lot's taken place in the last couple of hours. A lot of things have happened with regard to that horrible situation in the last couple of hours. There it is. Last couple of hours. He could be talking about that camera, Jim.

What if that camera did have a recording function and they, actually have somebody on tape who also might not have banked on the rooftop cam. Yeah. And again, I'd want timestamps on when the camera was found and when you said it was Friday night that the president made that statement. We're looking it up right now, I guess. And the camera was found. It was like in daylight. There's agents up there. So that could be an important fact, not just that the camera was found. I don't think President Trump would say something. Oh, they found one extra camera. But there was some kind of a recording aspect to it.

And boy, I neither Chadner I, I don't think we said anything really negative about law enforcement, but if somehow they missed this camera for the first five days or so, that's not a good sign, especially if it has recording capabilities, you know, in the cloud somewhere. Either way, the thing wasn't smashed, even if it had a thumb drive and of some sort, depending how they work. But yeah, you don't get these things for wildlife to just see them in real time. Maybe you get a notice on your phone and, oh, look, a little coyote out there. but you want to be able to wake up in the morning and see what the heck happened with all the critters, you know, overnight.

So it would only make sense. It's weird that your doorbell camera wouldn't have recording capabilities. Maybe not so weird that the one on top of the house right by the front door looks like would. And boy, what a treasure trove of recorded evidence that could be. So it would be nice to see that. You know, Chad, one of the oddities of that, though, is why wouldn't the family have told, law enforcement, she's got a camera on the roof. Did you get that one? She loved it. She loved to watch the wildlife, you know, or and maybe even, who knows, like, it could have been a family

member who installed it. I mean, in my family, if something's getting installed in my mom's house, it's either my brother, our handyman, or the service provider who brought it, you know, so it's like, it's a small circle of people who would have done it. Well, I think, too, in critical situations, Jim will, being the behavior guy, we all handle stress and trauma differently. And so at this time frame, your mother's missing. Is it possible they didn't even think about that camera up top with everything that's going on? No, that's not possible. Like, I just, that's not possible. Like, if your mother's missing, it is critical that you account for every video device that could possibly have caught her abduction for authorities.

I agree, but could it have popped in their head later on? The only possible they didn't know about it. Correct. It's possible they didn't know about it. Maybe she just had it done. The service provider put it up there, and she never discussed it with anybody. And a lot of these wildlife cameras, at least the ones, look, I'm a hunter, so I'm basing this off the cameras that I put out in the woods to see wildlife. I have an app. and if I don't pay the subscription, I'm not getting the photos in a file set to that app, but all of my cameras,

all those cameras on the wildlife side type of trail cameras do have an SD card in them that can be removed. I do know that for a 100% back. I'm not saying that's what type of camera was utilized, but if it was most of these cameras, even if she did not have a subscription, most of these cameras have some type of SD card inside of That, I mean, that's really interesting. Even if it weren't the camera, it does make you wonder, what did President Trump learn on Friday? President Trump learned we've learned in the past couple of hours. The presser was on Thursday. The, when did the second note come? Was it Friday, you guys? Yes. It was Friday.

So the second note came on Friday. It's possible that person, again, because we're not sure if President Trump was referring to finding the suspect who. hurt Nancy or the notes, the person behind the notes. Maybe the person screwed up. Maybe there was some identifying information on the second note that he was referring to then, because that timing also dovetails. And we're trying to figure out the exact timing of the Fox video of them finding the camera and President Trump's remarks. Hold on a second. The Fox post about the agent pulling the wired device from the roof was posted at 837 p.m. Okay, but that's Eastern. So that would have been 637 p.m. Tucson time.

And do we know, okay, the gaggle with President Trump began at 726 on Air Force One Eastern Time. So that was before Fox News posted it. So maybe, but I don't know. Trump's not getting his information on what's happening in this case from Fox News. He's getting it clearly from DOJ or FBI. And who knows? Maybe they did. Maybe they had already, you know, you get that, you're going to look in two seconds. You're going to take that as whatever you called it, the USB card. You're going to stick it in a laptop on site to see if you can see something. Who knows? So there's that possibility. And there's also a possibility that they were able to identify something off of the note that was sent on Friday.

but something appears to have broken on Friday that got the president excited about, you know, the possibility of solving this case. Brian Engine reported Friday that a ransom message, although now we know it wasn't. He reported it at 6.20 p.m. Again, law enforcement is going to know about all this long before we do. So that came at 620. The president began his gaggle on Air Force One at 726. and the Fox post about the agent pulling the wire device from the roof was 837 p.m. But again, we don't know when that actually happened. We just know that they did a post about it. I'll tell you one thing that I find very...

I don't know how Fox would have handled that. One thing I find very interesting, and I may be looking into this too much, but it is now confirmed that Kash Patel will be in Tucson. So you're saying it is confirmed. that cash Patel. We'll be in Tucson tomorrow. So could this be, you know, is this already just a planned trip that he had to come out there? Or are we going to have a good presser tomorrow with some updated intelligence or information?

I have a question about the cash Patel thing, but let me just, do you have the message, Steve? Can you send it to me? It was 2021 that Nancy was looking for a camera so she could watch outdoor, wildlife, which is not as great as it being like 2023 or 2024. You know, the bloom comes off the rose on that kind of thing. And maybe you let the subscription lapse. And, you know, maybe if you first had a recording service by year five or four, you're kind of like, eh, I'm not that, I'm not that into it. Last week, there was a report that Cash was going out to Tucson. And then they said, no, that's not right. But they said he is coming next week. And they

said, but it's pre-planned. I got, I got some doubts about it, Jim. I like, it just so happens that the FBI director is going to Tucson, Arizona, of all places. I mean, it's a border town, but that's not really the FBI's purview. I don't know. I've got my doubts. Do you think something's, something may be afoot? I want to be careful about speculation in that regard. I mean, I was on Unabom Task Force. Director Free showed up at least once. It's the only time I actually ever met him close up and other directors want to give support to long-ranging and long-term investigations you know bomb was that this is only you know nine days or so now so but nonetheless he wants to come out he seems to be like a hands-on sort of director and i i support how he's doing that at least in the charlie kirk matter

he did put something out a little bit premature but i don't think he's done that since then so he's been very careful and if he did tell president trump something and then president trump put that statement out. I'd like to think they had something, but of course, what is? It probably wasn't a body being found because the family would have been told that right away. It has to something to do with the communications, perhaps the camera information on it, and perhaps they're taking it to a lab and they can do some special work with it to recover what was in there. If it's only that SD card that Chad was talking about. Look, they could be working overseas with some of our partners. And again, I'm not ruling out that these extortionists will call them that now. If they're not really the kidnappers,

which it's very possible, they're not. You know, they have some countries over there, their intelligence agents looking at some, at some facilities, some houses, not that Mrs. Guthrie is there by any stretch, but at least looking at the people running this part of it and going from there. So there's some, and maybe Cash Patel have something to say about that next day or two. But that's the only kind of break they're looking for right now. That stuff's all secondary. It'd be great to arrest those guys, but we really want to find Mrs. Guthrie, hopefully

alive, but the family just wants back to do that celebration that they talked about, but of course it'll be a celebration of life at this point. Well, we'll know soon enough whether cash is going out there for this case and has something to say. Obviously, you know, that won't be a secret. But again, I think that the FBI is in a backseat role on this, even though they are the ones who arrested the fake, the for sure fake ransom demander, you know, the one who was harassing the family via text message. They did arrest that guy. Here's the tweet, you guys are, it's not a tweet. I think she posted on Reddit or forum.

November 25th, what was this, Steve? Next door. November 25th, 2021, she posted, quote, I'm thinking about buying ring or nest security slash doorbell camera. Any suggestions, which has the best camera interested in seeing animal activity at night? So that was 2021. We know for a fact she did get to nest security cameras and she appears to have gotten a third camera and it is possible that this case will. all come down to that. Guys, thank you to be continued. That's time tomorrow we'll know what the family decided to do on the agonizing decision about a $6 million ransom where there's been no proof of life. Say a prayer for them.

Chad, thank you. Jim, you as well. And thanks to all of you for listening and tuning in. We did not get to the Super Bowl, but I'm pretty sure you're not depending on me for your sports news. I do have some thoughts on the absurdity. of Bad Bunny, just had a very, very feisty argument with Pierce Morgan on his show about Bad Bunny, whom he defended. I did not. And we will get into that. Tomorrow we have Andrew

Claven here, and we're going to bring our guys back, too, for any developments in this case. So we'll have times for some other news as well. Thank you all. And lots of love. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.