The Megyn Kelly Show - Navigating Life's Mission Changes, the Fear of Success, and the Goal of Greatness, with Lewis Howes | Ep. 506

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

Megyn Kelly is joined by Lewis Howes, best-selling author of the new book "The Greatness Mindset," to talk about the challenges of believing in yourself in today's society, overcoming the fear and pressure of success, the fear of judgment and fear of failure, navigating when your life's mission changes, retirement and shifting your goals,using your trauma to lead you to success, focusing on health and healing while overcoming obstacles,  the importance of being giving and finding joy through that, Howes' memorable and powerful interview with Kobe Bryant, the importance of family and the people around you, how Kobe defined greatness, and more.Lewis' book: https://www.amazon.com/Greatness-Mindset-Unlock-Power-Today/dp/1401971903Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. If you are ready to level up your goals, your mindset, your life in this year, 2023, this episode is perfect for you. Lewis Howes is a New York Times bestselling author, an entrepreneur, high-performance coach, and speaker. His story of growing up in a small town in Ohio, creating a very successful business, and now using his platform to inspire and educate millions might just motivate you to get off the couch,

to make that one phone call, to think about next steps toward a better you, if not the best you. He interviews some of the best known leaders, entrepreneurs, and experts around the world when it comes to business, health, relationships. People like Kobe Bryant have sat with him all on his hit podcast, The School of Greatness. It's a great name, right? The School of Greatness. His new book is called The Greatness Mindset, and it provides you with real exercises to overcome limits and hopefully unlock the potential to be your greatest self starting right now. Lewis, welcome to the show. How are you? Thanks, Megan. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Oh, the pleasure is mine. I assume your answer is you're great. You're great and

getting better. I'm a very peaceful human being. And I think there's many times in my life where I didn't feel peaceful. And I'm just very grateful that I have peace in my heart. That's a good point. It's hard to feel that that way i remember um our daughter when she was little she was just you know full of energy or whatever and we say yards yards honey be yours be your best self be your best self and then our friend said to us and she's a therapist was saying how about just uh be yourself like be a better version of yourself or like, but not, you know, to say you have to be your best all the time is too much to put on any of us. And this kind of jibes for me with the way you think about doing well and excelling. Yeah. I think it's about being authentic,

your authentic and highest version of yourself. And some days that's, that's not a good, that's not a good place. You might be sad. You might be grieving. You might feel stuck or trapped, which I've felt many times in my life. But not holding back from your true authentic feelings, which I think is really important. So being your authentic and highest version of yourself. And I'm a big believer of constantly being in the process of progressing. And so it's never about being perfect. It's just about saying, hey, what can I learn from the day before? And how can I progress every day? You've helped millions of people with your sort of straight talking advice on how they can get

from A to B, how, as I said, you can get off the couch, how you can get off the top of the heap and go even higher. And so we'll get to all of that because I'm fascinated. And I love a lot of what you say, especially about self-doubt and the little voices in your head. But before we get to that, let's talk about you. People have a better understanding of where you come from and how you grew up. It was not without its challenges, your childhood. You were pretty open about the things that came your way and the goodness that was there too. But tell us about little Lewis in Ohio. It was confusing.

Let's just say that. And I think most people had some type of challenge when they were growing up. I don't know, Megan, if you had the perfect parents or the perfect friends or the perfect life or you believe in yourself every day, but that's not something I had. And I think all of us experienced some type of uncertainty or doubt or questioning, what am I doing here? What's the purpose of all this? Do I matter?

Am I going to make anything of myself? I think all of us have had that question at some point or time. There was a lot of beautiful things that happened for me, but the challenging things I think were so front and center in my mind and in my memory and in my emotions that it made me feel a little more triggered and reactive in situations in life. But when I was five, I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. It was a babysitter's son. He was probably about 16 or 17. And that was one babysitter's son. He was probably about 16 or 17. And that was

one of my first memories. So for 25 years, that was a script, a story, a movie that was playing in my mind that was kind of holding me back in a lot of ways. In certain ways, it was driving me to get results, to succeed, to excel in sports, to become bigger, faster, stronger, so that I felt like I could protect myself from anything happening to me ever again. But in other ways, it closed off my heart. It made me more reactive and triggered. And it made me driven by winning and by results, because I thought winning at all costs was greatness, but it was actually more of a selfish thing. That was five. When I was eight, my brother went to prison for four and a half years.

He was 18 in college and sold drugs to an undercover cop. And then his first time offense went to prison, sentenced six to 25 years. He got out in four and a half on good behavior and has transformed his life in a beautiful way since then. But as an eight-year-old, Megan, it was just very confusing. You know, we were going to a prison visiting room on the weekends, and I was seeing my brother, who was essentially my hero at the time as an eight-year-old, you know, trapped behind bars and in this visiting room where we could see him for a couple hours. It was very confusing.

So again, a lot of confusing moments that happened. And during these four years in a small town in Ohio, news travels fast. In the neighborhood, parents wouldn't let their kids hang out with me. So I just felt kind of like, again, confused, unsure. I felt like people were always picking on me. And I was always in the bottom of my class. I just didn't do well in academics. It was very challenging for me to read and write. When I got to eighth grade, I had a second grade reading level when they tested us. So I just always felt like I'm not enough. I'm stupid. I'm never going to amount to anything in academics. So let me just focus on sports. And that shaped a lot of my life. Being an athlete, being driven to win, because that's where I got validation. That's where I got seen and acknowledged and recognized. But when my career ended at 23, 24, when I got an injury playing arena football, my path to pursuing the NFL, I thought to myself, well, who am I now? Now that my identity is over, I can't go play the sports that I was

good at, that I had my identity tied into, where I got my self-validation and self-worth and confidence. So if I don't have this, what do I have? And I think a lot of people during these last couple of years, Megan, I know you've talked to a lot of people in this space, are struggling trying to figure out who are they without going through the divorces now that a lot of people are going through or going through loss of their loved ones or going through career loss. I think we're seeing hundreds of thousands of layoffs in the last couple of weeks alone here in America. It's hard to transition into what am I going to do now? Who am I? Where do I get my value? And how do I keep my confidence high

when there's a lot to stress about, when there's a lot of adversity, when there's financial crisis and there's pain and sickness and sadness and war and disease, how do we stay in a state of peace or at least a neutral state of some type of calm when there's a lot of chaos? And I think growing up with a lot of chaos, again, my parents

did the best they could. They started having four kids when they were 18. They didn't really understand how to communicate effectively, but they loved us fully. They would do everything they could to show us love, but they didn't show each other love. And so I just had a bad model growing up and a lot of different instances that caused stress and pain where all I wanted to do was become as good as I could and successful as I could at my athletics in order to feel like who I, who am I again now at 24, 25 and in my late twenties and going into thirties, what am I going to do? And I realized, and I know, you know, this from interviewing a lot of brilliant people as well, that some of the greatest people that I've met, they all had great coaches and mentors. And so that's what I started to do early on was seek out great mentors from people that I thought had figured some things out to start me down my path of like trying to figure out what I was going to do next.

And that's kind of where I got started, finding coaches and mentors. Something you said about losing your identity reminded me, recently we had on Dr. Leonard Sachs, who is this really well-respected doctor and guru when it comes to parenting and childhood. And I wrote the book, Why Gender Matters, and then has gone on to write all books about girls and boys and the collapse of parenting, which he wanted to call the collapse of American parenting, but they wouldn't let him. And one of the things he was saying was we need to refocus our energy as parents to develop our job from zero to 18 is to develop good character and values. It's not to develop a resume. And we've switched to juniors got to have a perfect 4.0.

Junior's got to be captain of the lacrosse team. Junior's got to be the head of 10 clubs. Junior's got to go to Harvard or an Ivy college, or junior's not going to make it in life. And whether willingly or unwillingly, we're telegraphing that to our kids. And then they get there and realize, or they don't either way, but they realize this identity is not fulfilling at all. And we've completely fallen down in the values field. You know, what matters? Family, love, it'll be different for a lot of people, but there are core values, honesty, and so on that you could nurture all along and see how far that could propel the person. It seems like that's what you're saying. You know, that it could be sports. It could be, you could be doing it to yourself. Your parents could be doing it to you, but it's ultimately

quite empty. A hundred percent. And I don't know if you've ever felt that way, Megan, but for me, when I was in the sports world, I would set 10, 15-year goals. When I was a kid, I was like, I want to be an All-American athlete. I saw football games with my dad on TV, and he'd be celebrating and acknowledging the All-American athletes. I'm five, six, seven years old at the time. And I was like, one day, I want to be an All-American because they're talking about them on TV. My dad's acknowledging them. Okay, that's what I want to be an all American because they're talking about them on TV. My dad's acknowledging them. Okay. That's what I want to be.

And I would train so hard in order to accomplish that goal. And I remember when I became an all American, two different sports, I was like angry right after it happened, like 20, 30 minutes after I got like my award. Okay. You're one of the top in the country at this sport. I was happy for a moment and then I was kind of angry and I was a little bit depressed for months afterwards. I wasn't like in a dark hole, but I was just like, why am I not feeling more fulfilled, more loved, more present, more connected, more joyful. I was thinking when I have this thing, then I'll feel something

differently. I said, okay, let me get bigger goals. Maybe it's not big enough. Let me go on to the next thing, not even celebrate this. And then it was, okay, and I'm a professional athlete, which was a goal. Then I still wasn't happy. Then it was, well, let me launch a business. Let me hit my first million dollars. None of these things brought me inner peace. They didn't bring me calm and an abundance of joy. It brought me more anger and frustration with myself because I was so critical of what I wasn't doing as opposed to focusing on the good that I was doing and what I was actually overcoming. And I think at the end of the day, I love Megan, you're talking about values because at the end of the day, I think a lot of us want to feel loved. We want to feel

seen. We want to feel heard. We want to feel like we're a part of a strong community that shares good morals. I think a lot of us innately want those things. And when I was interviewing Dr. Wendy Suzuki, a psychologist and professor, and I had her on my show, she was talking about, you know, she came from an Asian family, right? Where her parents was all about results, kind of like that was the way she grew up. It was about performance. It was about excellence. It was about results. It was about, you know, now you're the professor and you're getting this award and this degree and all these different things. And she told me,

she told me, you know, after 20, 30 years of living this life, I realized the thing that I was missing was my parents never told me they loved me. And we just didn't say those things to each other. We didn't have that type of intimacy and relationship. And this may sound weird saying this on your show. I don't know if this is something you're even open to talking about here, but she was like, all I want to do is tell my parents that I love them. And I hope they want to say that to me in return. Not just, okay, you did a great job, keep going, get more results, but just that we love each other. And kind of the value of love and connection and presence, I think is something that we should be teaching more to each other.

How can we look someone in the eyes and connect with them? How can we show, tell people I love you and actually be vulnerable enough to say these things and how can we be present and affectionate with people? And obviously the way they want to receive it as well. But I think she, that was her lesson as a psychologist, a professor, a bestselling author. And you know, in this culture, she was like, I wish my parents would just say they love me. That's really all I want at the end of the day.

And I think that's what a lot of us want is to feel seen, to feel loved and to be acknowledged for the type of character we bring, the type of value we bring beyond the accolades, beyond the success, beyond the, you know, the shows we do or all these different things, the promotions in the career, but also are we being quality human beings with quality character and quality values? And so that's why I love you're talking about values here. Well, when I was listening to you, I was thinking about Hollywood actors who, or it could happen in rock and roll too, but people who think, you know, fame and money are going to make them happy. That'll be the spike the ball in the end zone moment. And then invariably, I mean,

with very few exceptions, it either doesn't happen because those are very competitive fields or it happens and they find it's very empty. And this is my belief as to why so many of these people wind up on drugs or alcoholics with several failed marriages. Suicidal. Yeah. Yeah. Very hard to make it to the top of the heap and realize it's awful. Like that's, that's a real bummer.

I'm sure. But you, you overcame all this adversity and sort of got to this realization of, you know, okay, I did the NCAA thing and now I've made it in professional sports in one lane and this isn't fulfilling and I'm kind of pissed off and, and you didn't turn to drugs or alcohol. You did such an unusual, but smart thing, started to talk to smart people with life experience who could mentor you. So no one ever does that. That's not, that's not even a choice on the palette for most people. How did you even think, I know what I'll do. I'll just get all this great advice from smart people. He was on vacation with his, he had gotten divorced. And so he's on vacation with his then new girlfriend at the time. And a car, he was driving in a car, came, crashed into his car, went on top of his car

and the bumper of the SUV came to the windshield and hit him in the head, split his head open. He was in a coma. He got airlifted to the hospital, was in a coma for three months. We didn't know if he was going to live or die. And it was a big wake up call for me in that moment because he was kind of a mentor of mine in a lot of ways. He was, you know, my financial backing. I was in college at the time. He was supporting me financially. He was supporting me, you know, emotionally, mentally. He was teaching me about things and kind of guiding me at that stage of my life when I felt like I needed a lot of wisdom and was going through different things. So I went to pursue my dream of playing professional football after this.

My dad finally woke up from this coma, but he was never the same. He ended up passing last year. So he lived for 17 years, but he never was the same personality ever again. And I'm not sure if you've ever experienced something like this with a friend or a close family member where they forget your name, they forget what you used to do. They are completely different personality than what you knew them to be. He was physically alive, but emotionally was almost as if he had died that day in the accident. And his personality was completely different.

So it was just kind of a half grieving period for 17 years and facing this. And so I didn't have him to emotionally, financially support me anymore after college. I had to now figure this out on my own. That's what landed me on my sister's couch. I didn't have any money and she brought me in while I was recovering from a surgery from playing football. For about a year and a half, I was recovering trying to figure out what am I going to do? What's next? Who am I? This was in 2007, 2008 when the economy, it kind of felt like 2020 in the last couple of years of like what's happening in the economy, it kind of felt like, you know, 2020 in the last couple of years of like,

what's happening in the economy, we're not sure. And they weren't hiring people without, you know, with master's degrees at that time. And I didn't even graduate college yet. And so I was just trying to struggle and figuring out what I was going to do. And I remember saying to myself, was an athlete, what got me to the championship level was having great coaches. I didn't get here alone. I had great teammates, great coaches that pushed me, that guided me and gave me feedback and wisdom. And that picked me up when I made mistakes. And so this is really all I know since academics, I didn't do well.

So let me make my life like a sport. Let me find coaches and mentors and guides. Let me model people by reading their books or watching stuff online and find people in person and ask them how they overcame their adversities. And that was kind of the journey starting out. That's what got me into business. That's what got me into overcoming a lot of my fears because these coaches and guides would ask me questions about what are my biggest fears and insecurities. And they'd say, I want you to make a list and I want you to go one by one and go all in on these fears because those are the things that were holding me back, these insecurities.

And so I started public speaking every single week at Toastmasters. I started training myself and conditioning myself. Like an athlete for public speaking, I started doing many other things that I was afraid to do. And I took them on for my life. And that just allowed me to get more belief and confidence in myself. And Megan, I'm a big believer that self-doubt is the killer of all dreams. I just think it's what holds us back when we doubt ourselves and don't believe we are capable. And we don't believe we're enough to do something, we are limited by taking the actions necessary of getting the results. You didn't get to where you're at, Megan, in your incredible career of impacting millions of people constantly

by doubting yourself. You did it because you had somewhere a belief or some type of confidence to act, to take an action, which got you to the next stage and the next stage, which now you're one of the top shows in the world. And that doesn't happen because you doubt yourself. And I don't know, did you have a period where you did doubt yourself at one point, but had someone who encouraged you or saw the masterpiece inside of you or saw the greatness that was potential that could come out of it? Did you ever have that at some point where maybe you did doubt or insecure, but

people were supporting you at least to take action? I think I had the gift of a very honest mother and dad who I had for 15 years and he passed when I was young, but I had like, they never falsely built me up, Louis. It was like, eh, it's fine, but we love you. You know, like, like they were never doing cartwheels over my, you know, art. I remember one time I got, I had a role in Jack and the Beanstalk when I was little and my parents came and I came off and it was my first, I was like second grade. And my mom said, you really need to learn how to mop with a mop properly or sweep with a broom. Probably. I'm like, wait, I was just like, what do you, I was Meryl Streep up there. Where's my, but my parents just never, they did not believe in false praise. But when I did something praise worthy, they gave it. And I will say, I think that was one of the best gifts they gave me because

I've always had a very good sense of what's real, what I'm actually good at, and what I'm not. And so when I started broadcast journalism, I knew I was not good, but I also knew I had the potential to be good. And so I didn't actually get it from another. I got it from myself. And then when people would encourage me, I remember my first boss, Bill Lord said, what you don't have, I can teach you what you have. I can't teach. And, and that stayed with me to this day because I was like, I also believe that I think I've got certain gifts that'll make me really good at this job that I wouldn't have had if I had gone on to do any number of other jobs after I was a lawyer,

you know, I knew I wouldn't have. So I chose well because my parents gave me that gift. That's beautiful. I love that you said that you believed in yourself. I want to share a quick story about this because when I was in eighth grade, I was always watching and I was playing basketball. I was watching kind of the varsity basketball team at the high school I was going to go to. And there was this one guy who looked like, you know, the most incredible athlete I've ever seen. And to this day, I still think he's probably one of the greatest athletes I've ever seen.

I mean, he could do, he could jump as high as anyone could ever jump. He could 360 dunk. He could do anything on the basketball court at will during practice. But when he got in the game, it's like he played, you know, a half version of what he was capable of every time. It's like, he didn't believe in himself and everyone around him was like, you're incredible. You're the best. You're, you know, you're a freak of nature athlete. You can do anything at will. You can score at any time, but he didn't believe he could. And so he would do it in practice. But in the games, he would always fall short.

And I was like, just give me a fraction of your talent, please. Because, you know, it didn't matter if the world is against you or doesn't believe in you. If you can believe in yourself, then you can do great things like you've done, Megan. But here's the sad thing is that it doesn't matter if, if, if you don't believe in yourself and the world does believe in you, you're not going to be able to do it. So we must get the, either the encouragement from others to put it into ourselves, or we must take it from within and put it outward. But you, you had encouraging parents, but you also were encouraged internally, which I think was powerful.

You're so right. And I know in your book, you mentioned Jason Redman, uh, who was injured gravely and shot through the eye and put up the sign on the outside, like, do not come in here. If it's to feel sorry for me, this is a positive place. He believed he could recover. He defined what that would mean for him. And I met him years and years ago is like 2009 or 10 at a Navy SEALs benefit. And that's what the SEALs say. Say I can't. Say I can't. Their whole mentality is the more you tell me I can't do it, the more I guarantee you I can. That's who's attracted to the SEALs. That's the kind of mentality that the SEAL seals organization is attracted to. It's one of the reasons the seals are so incredible. They've got the thing that you're saying is the magic,

but not everybody has it. And it's gettable just because if you're not a seal, you don't have the mentality say, I can't, it's gettable. That's kind of the main theme of your book. And it kind of helps people figure out how do I get it? Yeah, there are three main causes of self-doubt in my opinion from kind of all the people that I've studied and all the experts and all the world-class athletes and the billionaires, you know, a lot of people that you know as well, there's these three main fears that causes people to really hold back from taking action on what they want, whether it's in the relationship with a career or launching the business or whatever it is that they feel inside they're

called to do, but they're afraid. There are three main fears that cause them to doubt themselves. The first fear, which a lot of people have, is the fear of failure. And as an athlete, Megan, growing up, I learned quickly that failure was just the path to success. It was just, this is the necessary steps you got to take. You're going to miss the shot when you shoot it. You're going to drop a ball when you're trying to play football. It's just going to happen. And this is information. It's feedback telling you what you need to do to improve, to accomplish your goals. So I understood that from coaches that taught me this. But a lot of people are just afraid of failure. And so they won't take the actions. That a lot of people are just afraid of failure.

And so they won't take the actions. That was never my fear. I had another one. The second fear is the fear of success. I always wanted to succeed, Megan. That wasn't my fear. I was like, I want to be someone. I want to make something of myself because I didn't love myself enough. So I felt like I needed something externally to fill it internally what I was missing. So I was like driven by success and I love to get closer to it and accomplish it. But as I started to do this research really over the last 10 years of, of my show and interviewing people, I realized that so many people are afraid of success. And when I'll speak in public and I'll ask people who here is afraid of success, most of the room raises their hand, maybe like 67%. And it always kind of blows me away. But the more I studied this, it makes sense because there was a documentary, Megan, called The Weight of Gold, which is about Olympic gold medalists who go through depression, anxiety, they go through overdosing, they get on

drugs or committing suicide within six to 12 months after winning the Olympic gold medal. There is a pressure to success that a lot of people aren't prepared for and they haven't been taught how to manage. I'm sure you've experienced this in different levels when you became more well-known, more famous, more financially successful. There might've been people trying to pull you down or maybe people saying, hey, from high school or college saying, hey, I need some money or can you help me out here? There are different things that might happen to us as we become more successful, where people doubt us. They try to pull us back down to their comfort level.

They criticize us. You're just more available to that criticism. And people don't like it. It's uncomfortable. It can be lonely at the top, people say. So I understand that fear that holds people back. But I just didn't, it wasn't a normal fear of mine. My fear was a third fear, which is the fear of judgment.

I cared so deeply for so long about what people would say about me, about what people would think about me, about what they were saying behind my back, in front of me, you know, reviews online, all these different things. I was so worried that I felt like I needed to put on a projection of confidence, put on a projection of perfection. And anytime that I was being criticized or judged, it's almost like I would give in my authenticness. We're going back to the beginning of this episode, my authenticness, I would give in to please others. I would say, oh, I didn't mean it that way. This is what I really meant. I would kind of justify something. I would try to oh, I didn't mean it that way. This is what I really meant. I would

kind of justify something. I would try to help people when they were trying to attack me. I would do whatever I could to get people to like me. And I had to learn this the hard way about 10 years ago, that that is just an exhausting game. And at the core of all three of these fears, the fear of failure, success, and judgment, there's a little center. They all kind of intersect. And it's, I am not enough. At the core, I'm not pretty enough. I'm not talented enough, smart enough, worthy enough, lovable enough, whatever it might be.

There's something inside that says, I'm not enough that causes us to have one of those fears, doubt ourselves. And that's one of the reasons why we don't take these actions in our life. We don't have the courage to act. Even when others are doubting us, we don't have the courage sometimes. And when we can get it to the core of why we don't feel enough, and we can reflect and really start to, I call it mend those painful memories or heal or whatever you want to call it, where you're creating a new story about the things that cause you to feel I'm not enough. That's when you can start to have the power back. That's when you can start to empower yourself and taking action to at least trying something that you want to do. When we have that calling,

I want to try this. Most people don't put themselves out there. And so that's what I want to give people is the tools that I wish I could have learned 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago for myself to end a lot of pain and suffering internally. And I think when we can get to that place of inner peace, at least around our past, maybe we're not going to find peace in the present with what's happening around us and the different pains in the moment. But I believe when we are constantly reliving a pain or being defined by a pain or a big trauma or a little trauma or a belief from our past in our present, it can hurt us in ways and hurt others in ways that we can't even imagine. Everybody has some childhood pain or trauma, and it's very severe in some cases. It's not, it didn't happen. I'm fine. You know, I'm good. Kissing the bicep.

It's creating a new story around it. Can you give an example of that? What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, you know, I started opening up 10 years ago about being sexually abused when I was five, right? I've talked about it many times. And part of me doesn't like to talk about it anymore because what I do as a way to show men that you can heal from these traumas. And I still feel like men still don't feel like they have a safe space with a friend or a mentor or a family member where they can just talk about the shames and insecurities from their past. And I think when we have shame or guilt inside of us, it becomes poisonous. It just becomes toxic. And we've got to learn to get it out, whether it's journaling or talking to a confidant or someone that we really trust or some type of counselor to support us in overcoming that. I'll tell you a quick story. I got a text last night. I'm just going to say this because this just happened. I got a text last night from Scott Budnick, who is a guy who is a producer of a lot

of big Hollywood movies. But now he goes into prisons and helps men really try to transform and heal in the different prisons. From a lot of men who have done really bad things, a lot of murderers and people have done some bad things, he tries to go in there and help them recover, help them heal. And he sent me a message that says, with a photo of a six-page letter. And he said, here's a six-page letter from Pelican Bay State Prison from a 21-year-old who has been in solitary confinement for two years. He had a swastika tattooed on his chest when I met him. He dropped out of the white gang. And I asked him why he dropped out of the gang.

He said, Lewis Howes and the Mask of Masculinity. And there's a whole letter that he has here that he took a screenshot and sent to me of... I did a speech to the prisons in America about men having a safe space to open up. And again, they don't have to speak about it publicly or whatever it might be, but allowing men to communicate the different emotional wounds that caused them to be so angry in the first place, that caused them to want to join a gang, that caused them to want to murder, that caused them to want to rape, that caused them to want to vandalize, that caused them to break these values that you talked about, these moral and values that I believe a lot of people

are struggling with these days. And I've struggled with in the past myself. No way am I a perfect human being. And I did a speech talking about my previous book, The Mask of Masculinity. These masks that we wear as men to protect ourselves, to project confidence, a false identity, a false self to the world so that we can feel like we belong, we fit in and are accepted. And a lot of times we do that is because we don't belong, fit in or accept ourselves. We don't fully accept the different things we've gone through in the past.

And it is extremely challenging, I think, for men specifically to face these different things where we feel a lot of shame and guilt and insecurity. So to answer your question, for 25 years, I held on to this anger around being sexually abused because there was an abuse. I'm not a victim, but there was a victimizing thing that occurred. And so there was something that occurred that shouldn't have happened. It did. And it caused me a lot of resentment, a lot of anger and frustration for 25 years. I didn't tell a soul, Megan, until 25 years. So about 10 years ago, I started to talk about it. And once I talked about it to family and a couple of friends, I thought, okay, my life

is over. They're never going to speak to me. They're not going to love me anymore. They're not going to accept me. They're going to want to push me away. My life is over. But I also thought to myself, I can't live with this poison inside of me anymore, this shame, this guilt anymore. And I'd rather be alone and emotionally free than living with a mask on and hiding different things about me because I'm afraid that they won't accept me. And so I started a process of asking some trusted advisors about how to address this and share this and open up with the people I cared about in my life because I wanted them to know. And when I started to do this process, it was a beautiful experience because what I was most afraid of, them pushing me away, it actually brought us closer.

My siblings actually opened up about things that I didn't know about them. We connected. We started the healing process. And it was a beautiful experience, you know, emotionally reactive at every moment in life, because that's the way I was responding. I was kind of responding like everyone's out to get me and take advantage of me. And no one, I can't trust anyone, all these things because this happened and many other things happened, not in sexual abuse, but that identified this story and this belief that I'm going to be taken advantage of. So I had to create new meaning around this. I had to really heal and reconnect with that identity, that five-year-old boy, and start to say and have compassion for that version of myself and say, hey, listen, you know, this is my bill of weird,

but having a conversation with my five-year-old self saying, you know, listen, I know you went through this hard time and I'm so grateful that you got us here to this place in our life, because now I care deeply about helping others. I care deeply about helping men and women heal. I care deeply about service and impact. I care deeply about empowering people and lifting them up. And if that didn't happen, maybe I care deeply about empowering people and lifting them up. And if that didn't happen, maybe I wouldn't care this deeply and have this much compassion. So it's having a different relationship and telling a different story and creating meaning around it.

You know, Edith Egger, I'm not sure if you're familiar with her, but she was an Auschwitz. She's got an amazing book called The Gift, which is all about finding meaning. It's amazing. It's amazing. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. Yeah. If she can be happy, any of us can be happy. Exactly. And she was a... Her mentor was Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning. And she talks about... When I had her on, I'm not sure if you've interviewed her, but she's incredible. You should have her on if you haven't yet. I haven't yet. I said, how did you find peace?

Like after, and she told the story about she, she had to forgive herself because I don't know if you know the story about it, but the, uh, the person who killed her parents came up to her in the concentration camp and said, is this your mother or your sister? I'm asking this to Edith. And she said, that's my mom. And so the officer took her mom and her dad into the chamber and they died shortly after that. And all she had to do was say, this was my sister and lie. And her mom could have stayed alive. And so can you imagine the shame, the guilt, the pain that you would face with these memories? And she said, I had to face the person that did this to me. I had to go back to Auschwitz and face it and have a new experience and process and heal.

Now, I'm not saying you need to go face the people that have done wrong by you in your life. That's not what I'm saying. But you need to learn how to face it internally with yourself and have a conversation with someone that you trust to be able to process these things. And if she can do this, and she can live a long, peaceful, happy, fulfilling life after witnessing so many people that she loved die. She was at Auschwitz when Goebbels was there. He was making her dance for him. I mean, it was the darkest kind of thing you can imagine. And one of the things I remember from her book is whenever she does a public speaking event, she started by kicking her leg straight up above her head because she was a dancer.

And here she is in her 90s, like kicking the leg up. It is inspirational because it's amazing to find joy after what she's been through. Then it's it's hope for the rest of us. My friend, Alison Barklage, who I we did a feature on her son, Blake, who died suddenly at age 17, just this past October, a year ago, October. She gave it to me because I asked her because she's joyful. And I said, Alison, how are you like this? How can you, Blake just died.

It hadn't even been a year when we did the piece. It was over the summer we did it. And she said, read this book. And that's when I read it. So it was relatively recent. But there is inspiration from people who have always suffered worse than you have, no matter how bad you have it.

And you can find a path forward in their lane. Maybe you can just draft behind, do something similar. I think what you said about like the, like the fear of failure can almost be harder though. It can almost be harder. The fear of failure, like there's so much judgment put around it and we are not built to want to embrace failure at all, especially as Americans, you know, we're like winners. And I realized that Asian culture is very much like be perfect, but American too is like win, win, win. And it, it, um, one of the stories in your book really spoke to me about Sarah Blakely. I love, I love it. I know Sarah a little bit. And of course she should definitely get the

Nobel peace prize for inventing Spanx, but I didn't know this story. Right. Right. She's great. You know, the, yeah, the story about how, you know, her father growing the nobel peace prize for inventing spanx but i didn't know this story right right she's great you know this yeah the story about how you know her father growing up at dinner she would at the dinner table every night he would say what did you fail at today and she would and he would celebrate her failure of the day it could be something silly or smaller or big and encouraging her to fail encourages her to try with her full heart without the shame of failure and I think that's why for me as an athlete it wasn't like a bad thing to fail it was just like okay but did you give your all and that was really more of a failure if you didn't give a full effort that was something to feel bad about. Because you know you had more in

the tank. You had more energy to give. You could have dove for that ball. You could have laid out. You could have hustled more, but you were lazy. That was a worse of a failure than actually losing. And so I could be still bummed that I would lose in a game. But if I knew, man, I'd give it everything, then it was a victory. It was a success. And the person was just better than me for this day. And now I have information on what I need to do better for the next time. So I think if we- I'm not a sports person, but you are, and I know your sport was football. So walk me through this, because I don't think I've ever even tried to do a sports analogy before, but I did watch both of

those games, those playoff games the other day um, there was one in which there was that one Philadelphia Eagle who he did, he made that amazing catch. It was like the fingertips. You couldn't believe it. There was that guy. And then in the next game, there was that Kansas city chief who wouldn't have gotten the first down if, remember, he reached across. It's like, if that, like, it was like, these guys are pros who would never settle for just good enough. Look at them in the biggest stakes games going the extra few inches to make all the difference. Even I, as a non-sports person, was inspired, Lewis. It's inspiring.

I'll give you, here's a beautiful story. This is a full circle moment. The head coach of the Eagles, he's got a great story. Second year head coach, his name's Nick Sirianni. Now, most people don't notice about him. He was, he played division three football. So there's really three main divisions in college football, one, two, and three, three is you're not as good as one. So I played division three football, smaller times football. And so did he, he was a wide receiver. I was a wide

receiver. He was a, a national champion at Mount Union college. That was in the same conference that I was in at Capital University in Columbus, Ohio. And when I was a senior in college, he was a defensive backs coach. So I was a wide receiver. He was the coach at Mount Union. My last college football game that I played, they were the previous national champions. We were in the playoffs. I was playing against his defensive backs. I broke a school record. I had three touchdowns and I tore apart his entire defense. Now I should have been happy, but they won the game. They won by like three points in the last minute. And then two games later, they won the national championship. So his team stopped my chances and my dreams of being a national champion. So even though I beat his defense pretty well, he ended up winning a ring in a national championship. Now I, I was bummed that we lost. I was, I was sad because I gave it my full effort, but I also know

I gave it my full effort and there was nothing else I could have done. There was other factors out of play. Just like a lot of people said, the rest were horrible in some of these games. Sometimes there are other factors out of play, but when you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and say, I did best I could do with what I had in this moment, then I feel like that's a big victory. And I think a lot of people discount their efforts and the gifts they bring when they lose. They say, man, they make it all up, but they blame themselves too much. And I think that's not a good thing. We are not very good, at least Americans. I don't think we're very good of being positive self-coaches. We're really good at being negative self-critics to each other. And I think it can drive us to working

hard and getting results and all these different things. But at the end of the day, if we can never even celebrate a moment of the effort, of the good, of the inspiration we bring in our careers and our day-to-day lives, then I think we're missing the point. If we're just driven by results and winning, listen, I want to win. I want to grow. I want to do all these things. It's fun for me. But if I put my entire self worth only in winning only in results and not also in being a good valued human being, like you talked about in the beginning, being generous with people, being present with people, just smiling and bringing a little bit of joy every now and then to the people that I'm around or strangers and trying to lighten the mood.

Again, like we talked about, there's so much pain, stress, overwhelm, and suffering in people's lives in almost every area of life. And I think as humans, we should try to focus on how can I improve the quality of my life to be a little bit more joyful. It doesn't have to be our best self every moment and fake, but how can I improve? And I don't think we can truly feel fulfilled and improve authentically without going back and telling different stories and finding meaning from the things that cause us to be stressed, overwhelmed, and feel like we're not enough today. And that's why for me,

it always starts with mending and creating different meaning that actually encourages you now and for your future self from the different things that hurt us in our past. And I know a lot of men don't like to talk like this or like to think like this. They just say, suck it up. This was my whole upbringing in sports. Suck it up. You're not in pain. Play through the pain. Don't talk about your feelings or emotions. And I think there's a way you can do it authentically where it serves and supports you and then also empowers and uplifts other people around you. I'm picturing like, you know, Patrick Mahomes out there like, it really does hurt a lot, but I'm going to play through it. I'm good. There's obviously a time and a place. There's a time and a place when you're on the field of

battle or you're a Navy SEAL. You maybe can't talk about these things in the field of battle, like, or when it's life or death. But I think it's in the moments in between sport and in between actual battle where you can reflect and create meaning from those plays. When it's life or death, literally, you've got to tough one up and you've got to do whatever it takes. But there's also a lot of time where it's not a life and death that we live. And if we're living like it's life and death constantly, we're just going to be disconnected from people. So I get the fear of failure. And there's a great story in your book about you.

You talk about the public speaking and do it every day. You talking to girls and how you challenge yourself one summer. This is great because I have two little boys in addition to a girl. And you challenge yourself one summer. Every day I'm going to talk to a girl. I don't care. I'm just going to do it. It's going to be one day. And by the end, you know, like a little Rico Suave, you, you got it. You had it down. So that's, I like that advice. That's good. The fear of success reminded me of something. Okay. I'd like to talk about it more because I used to work at Fox news. Brit Hume was my boss. He was my mentor for many years and he retired when I was sort of, I don't know, late in my tenure at Fox, he retired and it was years. And he retired when I was sort of, I don't know, late in my tenure at Fox. He retired and it was sad. And he said he wanted to focus on three

things, God, golf, and grandkids. But I know that there was some piece of him because he'd been so hard charging as a reporter, ABC News, White House correspondent back in the years of Peter Jennings and Reagan. I mean, at the peak of that job and just so well-respected and so accomplished. And I didn't know what to get him for his retirement. So I gave him a picture of the two of us. It was the 2008 Republican National Convention and it was out in Minnesota, St. Paul, Minnesota. And we went to the Mall of America and we went, Brett Baer, Brit Hume and I went on the roller coaster there together. You know, it's the indoor roller coaster in the huge mall.

There's a great picture. You know, one of those pictures they get of you or you're like, ah. You're screaming. You're like, ah, yeah. Totally. And you got to see Brit Hume in this picture. It's a great picture. And I framed it and I wrote on it.

Sometimes the best part is after the climb. You know, like that's what he was going to. It was not like leaving success behind. It was going from one success to a different kind. That's beautiful. And I think, you know, the main part for me is figuring out what is our meaningful mission for this season. And it sounds like for, I don't know, many decades, he had a mission. He was very clear on his mission. He was working to become better at his mission every single day and to impact lives with his reporting and his unique talent. And then his mission ended and he had a new season, which was God, golf, and grandkids. And I think a lot of people don't know what their meaningful mission is,

or they chase the wrong mission because they feel like it's supposed to help them or make them feel good about themselves, but it's not what's calling them. And I think that's interesting about your story, Megan, is you're like, there was something calling me. You were able to listen and reflect and you're like, maybe I'm not the best at this thing yet, but it's calling me because I'm really curious and interested in it. And I think I could be good. And you had that voice inside of you, that listening, that pulling you into the direction that you have now. And if you didn't listen to that voice, or if you listen to someone else's voice, or you did something you felt like your friends are doing because, oh, this is my girlfriend

is doing this thing. And she's telling me and influencing me to do it because it's what she wants. You would have not had the impact that you've had so far in your life and the career and the incredible joy that you've been able to bring to so many people if you didn't listen to your voice and pursue this current season's meaningful mission. And you're exactly where you're meant to be. And because it's... I know there's hard days and it's challenging at times, but it looks effortless when you do it. You look effortless because you are talented and gifted and you have years of practice. And a lot of people aren't clear on their meaningful mission. And when you ask a Navy SEAL,

when you don't have a mission, what are you doing? It's like, when there's no mission, people become more destructive or when they leave the military and they don't get a mission quickly, it's kind of like, you know, what do I do? What do I do with my hands? Where do I go? You know, what am I supposed to do with my life? And it's, that's why I love there's so many good programs out there that are helping, you know, vets try to get back into a good mission for their lives. Because if they don't have that, they're going to struggle just like all of us. I struggled after college football and after pro football. I was like, who am I now?

What's my identity? What am I going to do? And I was kind of twiddling my thumbs for a while until I got a new mission. But I had to listen to the voice inside of me and overcome these fears. Public speaking was one of them because I knew that if I cannot communicate effectively in front of other people, whether it be a boardroom, whether it be a small audience of three people or 30,000 people, I'm probably not going to have anything meaningful in my life if I can't just communicate to a couple of people. And that was my biggest judgment fear at the time.

So this was on my fear list. Edith Edgar talks about creating a fear list as well. She says, make a fear list and knock them off your list and you'll become fearless. You'll become more powerful when you overcome those things. And I just knew that I couldn't stand in front of anyone without stuttering, stumbling, or being insecure about what they were thinking about me. And so that's why I went every single week for a year and I got a coach and I practiced and I was horrible for six months. It was humiliating how bad I was, but I just kept going and saying one day, this is gonna get better.

And I could see the improvements little, it wasn't a lot, but a little bit every week. And those improvements gave me a little bit more confidence. And so I think when we can create a list of our biggest fears that cause us to doubt ourselves, that causes us to feel judgment or insecurity, and we can start attacking those things, that will give us a lot more confidence in ourselves. Then we can get clear on what our meaningful mission is. At that time, I was like, I just want to get off my sister's couch and make enough money to get my own apartment. That was my mission. I couldn't think beyond that. But once I started to make some money, then I was like, okay, what do I really want? I want to impact 100 million people. Okay. I want to impact them every single week. And I want to help them improve the quality

of their life. And I want to do that through what I think I'm decent at, which I'm just a curious person. So let me try asking questions. And I didn't know where it would head, but I was like, let me try this. Let me do it for a year, every single week for a year. And that's what started my journey. Last week was my 10 year anniversary of my show. And I wasn't that good in the beginning, but every week I just said, how can I improve a little bit every single time and try to help more people? And so when I

got clear on my mission, Megan, it became, it became, oh, go ahead. I was just going to say mission accomplished because you nailed it. I mean, the show's numbers are astronomical. So clearly you got there. Well, it's not there because it's a hundred million lives weekly. We only hit 250 million people last year total in terms of like long form engagement, you know, like a 20 minute engagement from a listener review. And so for me, it's how do we get a hundred million lives weekly? And so here's the thing. It's having a mission big enough that excites me when things are challenging and tough and hard because there's days that aren't always perfect. And so they get me excited every day to kind of get up and say, all right, I'm nowhere. Who do I need to become in this process of actually accomplishing that mission

or being on that path? And it may never happen. And that's okay too. I've learned that this may never happen. I had a dream about being an Olympian, Megan. And I moved to New York City. This was part of one of my fears and my dreams. I moved to New York City in 2010. And I joined a team for a sport called team handball that is an Olympic sport. It's unknown in America. The reason I joined this team is because there's not much competition. So I said, where can I find a sport where there aren't a lot of people playing it and try to make the Olympics? That was my whole goal. But I found this sport while I was watching the 2008 Olympics, when I was in my cast, recovering from a surgery on my

sister's couch, a little bit down and out. And I saw this sport at like 3 AM on TV, watching the Olympics. And I go, where's the sport been my whole life. I started researching about it. I tried to find the, you know, a local club or a way to play it. And there was nothing in Ohio that had handball. And I saw that there was a club in New York city. So I said, when I make enough money, I'm going to move to New York city. It was a few years later, I moved there a year after I moved there, I'm playing with the team every single week, the New York City handball team. And I'm learning from these guys. Within a year, I make the USA national team. And the whole time I'm saying to myself,

my vision is to be an Olympian and to go to the Olympics. For eight years, Megan, I trained. I traveled around the world with the USA national team from Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Mexico, Canada, Israel, the UK, you name it. I flew everywhere to pursue this dream of being an Olympian. And the dream did not come true. But the journey of who I became, what I learned, the experiences I had, the people I met, the victories we did have, those were a dream come true. So even though the goal, the mission did not get accomplished the way that I envisioned, the process, the lessons, the magic, the friendship, the challenges I had to overcome was a dream come true. And I think a lot of people, I used to beat myself up if I didn't accomplish my goals.

Now I really embrace and say, you know what? Sometimes it just doesn't happen the way we envision. And if we beat ourselves up, what is that doing for us? It does nothing for me. Instead, why don't they create meaning from that season? Those eight years create a different meaning. Okay, man, what a journey. What a beautiful experience. I met so many amazing people. I got to wear the USA across my chest and sing the national anthem against Olympic teams, against the Brazilian national team, against the Israeli national team, against the Argentinian national team, Chilean national team, Mexico national team. I get to compete against Olympians and represent my country. It was an incredible dream come true, but the dream

didn't get accomplished, right. And so there's just different ways to look at it. And I'm grateful for the lessons and the journey. Let me ask you this. One of the people you talked to is Joel Osteen, who's so full of wisdom. My goodness, whenever you listen to him, you just get drawn in before, you know, an hour's gone. You're like, wow, that's amazing. But he spoke to in the book to the third fear that you zeroed in on, which is that fear of judgment, which you just mentioned as well, that fear of perfection. And I'm thinking about it in the context of the story you just told. Like, I would imagine a lot of guys thinking about becoming an Olympic handball team member.

The second voice would be like, you can't, you don't know how to play handball. You just saw it on TV. Don't be a dumb ass. That's a, that's not a realistic goal. That's stupid, right? That voice is in there either from you or from your critics. Um, and I can relate to this in a way I'll get to in a second, but I love the quotes from here. So this is an excerpt from your book. You say, here's the truth. People will judge you no matter what you do. So you might as well go for your dreams and do the thing you love the most. I asked Joel Osteen, pastor of the largest congregation in America, televangelist and author based in Houston, how he overcomes the tendency to feel insecure about what others think. And he says, you can't reach your destiny

without people being against you. Some people are not going to understand you. They don't want to understand you. Sometimes we spend time and energy trying to convince somebody to like us, and they're never going to like us. And that's okay. Stay focused on your race. And so what I've been good at, this is Joel Steele, and what I encourage other people to do is to tune out the negativity and run your race. I love that people, they're not going to like us. And no matter how perfect we may be, or what efforts we make to avoid their harsh judgment, they're not going to like us and they don't want to. Exactly. And I'm guilty of that. Most of my life, I wanted people to like me. And I was trying to say, what can I do to get them to like me and understand me? And it was a losing battle because it didn't matter how much I tried and gave and wanted

them to. That was my fear and insecurity, the fear of judgment. And I think I had to learn that the hard way many times as I started kind of building my audience and my business and my brand and all these things that, man, this is, you know, exhausting when you're focusing on all the negativity, as opposed to just focusing on the mission that you have, what you can do to improve, taking the feedback for what it is and saying, okay, maybe there's some true feedback there. And I do get to improve here and there, but not letting it affect you and hold you back. And there's this kind of great meme online of, I think it's Michael Phelps and like the second place person in one of the Olympics, one of his,

you know, 50 Olympics that he was in, where there's like this quote that says, winners focus on winning, losers focus on winners. And it's kind of like a cheeky thing, but shows Michael Phelps focused on the finish line as he's swimming. And it shows kind of the person right behind him, like looking over at him as they're getting close to finish, as opposed to just focusing on his race. And I think it's just a good analogy that a lot of times people are so focused on what other people are thinking about them in their race, or they're focused on other people completely, and they're not working on their race, that it just holds us back. And I think Joel's a great example of this because he's probably someone who has been criticized in his religion and his faith and his congregation in the country the most because he's the biggest. So he has probably the biggest target and the most to

worry about from people criticizing him. And I'm like, dude, how do you do this? And he's like, I just focus on living my mission, focus on service, focus on giving, focus on improving myself. And I think that's what we all should be doing as well. So this, I have my own experience here that I'm living right now. Really? Tell me. When I was coming up the ranks as a reporter, as a news anchor, and sort of the bigger job I got, the more criticism I would receive, the more newspaper articles, that kind of thing, picking apart every word.

And I was very worried about what people were writing about me because I really felt like my career depended on it. I was in the public eye. And if they were all going to write terrible things, my career could go away. And I loved my career and I didn't want it to go away. And in my industry, that means to some extent appeasing the left because the left controls all of media, not to make this political. You don't have to go there, but I'm just going to explain my own experience. But that's it. It has to mean that because the media is controlled by liberals. And it's not like I ever took a position I didn't actually feel, but I knew if I had gone too far over on saying something that would appeal to conservatives, I get hit by the left.

And it was just a constant stressor. It was a constant stressor. Whereas if you said something that appealed to the left, they'd celebrate you. You know, I was like, I didn't need their accolades, but I don't want them on my back all the time. Right. Then I went to NBC and the left just completely decided that they hated my guts. I had made up with Trump. I was at a left wing news organization. So now I was like,

oh, well, she's the farthest thing right we have. So we're against her. And it's just a shitstorm piling down. And then ultimately I ended my time there under very traumatic circumstances for me as a professional. And I I realized these people, not all the left, but these sort of wokesters who are love cancel culture on the left. These are not honest brokers to whom am I trying to appeal? Not them. They are, they're not on my side. They're not on the side of the things I value that I have no interest in appeasing these people or doing anything to my own behavior to curry favor with them. Nothing.

And I sat there on my couch, on my couch, Lewis, in those, you know, year plus I had off. And I looked at people and I know people mock me, but they shouldn't because he's great. I looked at people like Piers Morgan, who was just saying whatever he wanted. He didn't care what third rail he touched. Ben Shapiro, another example. Now you'd look at Joe Rogan and say the same. Tucker Carlson, another. And I really admired them. And I realize now they're considered so controversial because they say these things, of course, that the left doesn't like. But I said, I'm inspired by them. They don't care what judgment is put on them. They they're just authentic and say how

they really see it. And I said, that's how I want to be. I want to be more like that and let go of these chains I've put on myself in the name of appeasing who, who again, right? So, and I'm, I'm there. Like I, I finally found the ability to do that. I finally found the ability to not care or at least to not let what's the remnants of the caring stop me from doing what I want to do and saying what I want to say. Yeah, that's beautiful. I think there's a, there's some type of, I can't remember who said this, but there's a saying or a quote that it's like, um, it's something worse than, than winning is winning at the wrong things. It's like worse to win at the wrong things. And when we are,

when we're living an inauthentic life, because we're afraid of certain things, but it's doing well, or it's succeeding, it's like, but are we truly authentic? Are we truly living our values? Which again, you talked about this going back to kind of the whole beginning of this conversation is living with our values and our authenticity. And I think, you know, to go back to the beginning of this part of this conversation about success and fame, you know, Jim Carrey has a great quote where he said something like,

I'm paraphrasing, and I hope everyone becomes rich and famous and they can realize it's not, you know, you can't find happiness in that or something around that. He's like, I hope everyone can become rich and famous and realize this is not the key to success. This is not what it's all about. And living an authentic life is what it's all about. And I'm, again, I'm not speaking about opinions of what people say or not, but I love that Piers Morgan and Ben Shapiro, that they live an authentic life, whether you like them or not. They feel, they look like they're free to me to say what they want without being worried about what other people are doing or responding.

And I think that's powerful. And again, as long as it's not hurting people or, yeah, go ahead. So they have the advantage. Appears his politics are unpredictable, but he knows who he is. He knows what they are. Ben Shapiro, lifelong conservative, you know, he was Alex P. Keaton. He's living that life. It's very clear. I'm talking about their politics, which drives what they do professionally. Me, I'm not really an ideological person and I'm still not. I have my strong opinions, but I'm not ideological. So I would say it was somewhat tougher for me to just sort of see this is where I am. I have to figure it out issue by issue. And this leads me to my next big question, which is for the people who don't have, like, what if they don't know what the mindful mission is?

They don't have the burning, like, look at the handball. Or like me, I want to try the journalism and I know I can do it. If they're like, I just feel kind of listless and depressed in my current job. I know. In my current marriage. I don't know what to do. How do I find that thing that you and I are talking about? There's a beautiful, one of my first interviews I did for my show is with Robert Green, the writer.

He wrote a book called The 48 Laws of Power. He wrote, I don't know, I think he has five New York Times bestselling books. He wrote a book called Mastery. He's done an amazing job over the last you know 15 20 years as a writer and he did many different things as a writer he came to hollywood he tried tv script writing he didn't like that he tried movie writing and screenwriting he didn't like that he tried newspaper writing he didn't like that he wrote for magazines he didn't like that and nothing he was like i think I want to be a

writer, but none of these avenues are really working and they don't bring me a lot of joy. But then he said, I have this idea for this book. And no one was interested in it. This weird kind of conceptual book called the 48 laws of power that was written in a weird, unique way. When you open the book and you read this kind of structure differently than all books. And he's like, I have this idea and people people were against it. People were like, no, it's not going to work. It's weird. Publishers weren't into it. He got someone to get it, to believe in him and ended up writing this book that became a massive, massive hit. I don't know how many reviews it's probably got a hundred thousand five-star reviews on Amazon.

It just keeps selling every day like crazy. And he said, it was the combination of trying all these different things that I thought maybe I'd be interested in and realizing I wasn't and then shifting to the next thing. And he said it took him a long time. This took many, many years until he figured out his unique thing, which was kind of these different packaged style books, these kind of nonfiction books in a certain way that are now exactly where he's supposed to be. And I didn't know that I would be doing an interview show at 30 years old. That's not what I thought I'd be doing when I was younger. But it was all the different things that I did from sports and like being so curious about how to be great as an athlete and loving

when I would had great coaches teaching me in the philosophy of goal setting and hard work and teamwork and community and, and, uh, picking your brother up when they fall down and kind of this, this, this value system I learned from sports. Then into online marketing, which I liked, but it wasn't like my thing that I felt called to do. But it was an experience for five years where I learned about online marketing and building an audience and public speaking and selling and webinars and kind of all these different things that I learned how to do over the next five years, which brought me to a different chapter, a different season where I was like,

okay, I'm not sure what I want to do next, but what am I most curious about? And it kind of brings me to the answer to the question, which is figuring out your sweet spot between these three things that I call the three Ps. And the first one is the passion, the things that you're curious about. Maybe this is where you find some of your talents, your unique gifts, the things that you're just interested in and you're reflecting on what those things are.

And if you're not even sure, you could ask your friends or family member, "'Hey, what are my unique talents?' Because I didn't think asking questions was something I could ever get paid for, Megan. I don't know if that's what you thought getting into this, but I was like, I'm curious about asking questions to people, but how am I going to make money doing this, right? And I think you have to kind of forego this figuring out the answer of how you're going to make money.

But I was like, okay, I was bottom of my class in school. It took me seven years to finish college uh and i like to ask dumb questions i don't know if that's a talent or not but let's run with it it's like a line from lots of people go to college for seven years i know they're called doctors but this was an undergrad this was seven years just to finish an undergrad as this is my bachelor's so i was like okay i don't have skills or talents is what am i thinking so how am i going to make a undergrad as this is my bachelor's. So I was like, okay, I don't have skills or talents is what my thinking. So how am I going to make a living doing this? But I was like, let me try this for one year and see, because I'm curious about it.

Let me like, just try it. And if it fails, at least I tried and I can move on to the next thing. And that's what I think people want something to be perfect when they launch it. And they want it to like make money or like get to the top of their career right away. And I think you just got to be willing to explore it for a small season or a chapter and see if you even like it and improve it along the way. So that was, that was step one is figuring out what your, your passion is, or at least things you're curious about. And figuring it out, like a failure on that route or a wrong turn is not a setback. That's actually a step toward the goal.

100%. At least you know what you don't want to do. Again, Robert Greene was like, okay, I tried the TV writing thing. I don't want to do that. I tried the magazine writing thing. I don't like that either. I tried script writing for movies.

That wasn't my jam. But maybe this unique book thing works for me. So let me try that. So it's like, you got to try a number of things sometimes until you get clear on what it is you do want to do. So that's the passion. The power is the second P in figuring out kind of your meaningful mission. The power is, again, what are the things that you feel like are your superpowers? What can you really lean into the most? These are the superpowers that you could get a job with right now, that you could launch something with right now. Again, if you are a great speaker already, then maybe there's a path

in speaking or some type of stage presence, things like that. But also with the power for me, I think it's just as equally important to figure out not only your superpowers, but also the things that make you feel powerless. And this is where I went through this fear list and saying, okay, there's a number of things that hold you back from stepping into your meaningful mission too. And this is where I went through this fear list and saying, okay, there's a number of things that hold you back from stepping into your meaningful mission too. And when you can figure out the things that make you feel powerless and start just knocking them off your list by going all in on them one at a time, then you're gaining so much confidence on this kind of tool belt that you have as a human being. You can whip out this new skill that you overcame.

And when we overcome the thing that we are most afraid of, it amplifies our confidence to a whole nother level. It gives us so much more courage because we say to ourselves, wow, this thing has been holding me back my whole life. I just overcame it. I can take on anything now, right? So it's a superpower that comes from there. And that's the second thing is really the passion, the power. And then I think as human beings, we should be trying to solve problems. And so the third thing is figuring out the P, the problem that you want to solve. And my friend Rory Baden says that we are perfectly positioned to help the person we once were and the person we overcame. So if you once were

50 pounds overweight and you learned how to overcome that weight and you got better and healthier and you reversed a disease that you had, then you're perfectly positioned to maybe help someone who's struggling with their weight. If you learned how to be a public speaker and you were once afraid of speaking in public, then you're perfectly positioned to help people who are afraid and need to figure out how to overcome that fear. And so it's figuring out the problems we want to solve. And so for me, it's trying to find other people that want to impact a hundred million lives weekly and want to use their talents to do that. So when you can get clear on kind of navigating these three P's,

your passions, these are your unique interests, your power, which is like your talents and your gifts, and also the things that you want to overcome that make you feel powerless and making them more powerful. And then the problem you want to solve. Then I think you can start to say, all right, well, here's an avenue I can try. And once you start trying it and you get clear that this is the path, then you can create a meaningful mission around that. For me, that doesn't mean it's going to solve all your problems and life is going to be easy and it's going to be effortless.

It's actually when all the work really begins and all the obstacles are going to be facing even more now, but at least you have a clearer direction and something you can measure along the way. And again, I think when we are directionless is when bad things happen to us, is when we get the scraps of life, is when we start to do bad things or just do things that are out of our values. And that's why it's really important to get clear on our meaningful mission. Yeah. Like that, like you said, like those seals who come home from battle, they need a mission and we're kind of the same.

To go back to your colleague who retired, right? He had a meaningful mission for however, how many decades he was doing the career and it served him and he served people that were consuming his information and he used his talents, he used his power and he was people that were consuming his information and he used his talents he used his power and he was solving problems and he was right in his sweet spot for a season then it came his time he goes i've done everything i've interviewed everyone i you know i've i've i've done the thing for so long it's no longer of interest to me um and now i have god golf and grandkids and and i think that's okay too it's like we as an athlete i know you don't i know you not big in the sports analogies megan but i'm just going to give it to you because this is what i know as an athlete there's uh you know the

pre-season the season the playoffs and then you've got the postseason. Just like the four seasons of life, you know, of a year, the fall, summer, spring, winter, there's four different seasons of sports. And in the postseason, the offseason, you have a few months to reflect on the last nine months of training, preparing, games, playoffs, all that stuff, and how you performed and how you, you know, it could have done better. Then there's a period of recovery. You get to reflect and say, do I want to go play again? Do I want to go make this my mission for the next season? And I think we all have those opportunities every year to say, is this the right path that I want to continue to stay on? Or is there something new I want to do? And it's

always okay to say, you know what? I had a great season. It's time to find something new. That's cool too. I think if you're struggling to get that, you know, to get the passion, like what is it? And you're saying cast a wide net, try a bunch of stuff, you know, don't be afraid of failing and all that. I also think, go back to the thing we discussed earlier about looking at some of those traumas that you, you know, trauma is like so overused and it's been stigmatized and I have helped stigmatize it because I'm sick of hearing about fake trauma that these people don't actually have. But there are real traumas in everybody's past. And if you haven't dealt with yours, it can come back to haunt you and it can create a depression that is very hard to get past. And if you are depressed, if you really are just

blue a lot, very hard to identify your passion, you know, nothing's coming to you. There's a deadening that would make you just feel like, I don't have it. I'm not one of those people. I can't cast a line, can't do any. And so there does have to be some work. If you're not feeling anything, if you're not like, if you're like, I don't know what I enjoy, I have no idea what stimulates me, nothing, you know, some work needs to be done, uh, you know, just to shore up some unwellness or some holes, whatever, uh, that could, that are short. Yeah. Yeah. There's, I mean, there's really, there's really three main things that I think you can do to get you out of a state of mental depression, depression, or any type of anxiety or overwhelm or any of these type of emotional or mental states. And I think the first one is taking care of your health. Number one,

I think when you focus on, and I think a lot of people can be too giving sometimes to everyone else that they deplete their own energy and they create zero boundaries where I think your number one priority should be taking care of your health first. So then you can take care of number two, which is to be of service and to figure out how you can serve abundantly and generously with an open heart. Obviously, discerningly in the right scenarios and not just giving unconditionally, but discerningly with an open heart. And I think the first one, if you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed or anxious, or even a little depressed or sick mentally or emotionally, you want to find someone to support

you in the process. Because I just think it's really hard doing it all on ourselves and doing it alone all the time. I just think it's really hard to get out of feeling depressed on your own. It's almost near impossible on your own. Find support. Find people that you can coach, you guide, you mentor, you priests, whatever it might be, friends, family, therapists, anyone that you feel comfortable getting support with that can give you some type of program of accountability

and action. And I think when you focus on, if we move our bodies consistently, it's going to just create chemicals that bring more joy and happiness just from that alone. So if we're laying on the couch all the time and not moving, we're going to feel less energy, positive energy by ourselves. So moving your body and doing something to improve your health is number one number two is figuring out how can I give how can I serve once I give to myself how can I also be generous and of service that can just be joyful I don't have to give money or so much time but how can I be a generous human being of my presence of my attention and think out of myself. Just being

a grateful and a giving human being is going to bring you a lot more joy. And then I think the third thing is also focusing on healing. So you've got your health and moving your body, but you've got to heal these different traumas or wounds that cause you to feel depressed. And if you don't face the things that cause you this type of feeling, it's just going to keep coming up. And no matter how much you work out and no matter how much you give, there's still going to be some of that leftover. So that's going to be the third thing to focus on as well. I love that support network, whether it's a spouse, a friend, a parent, a sibling. In my case, I also have my great therapist who I absolutely love. And he's been with me for 12

plus years now. And he'd say, I'd say, well, what will people say great therapist who I absolutely love. And he's been with me for 12 plus years now. And he'd say, you know, I'd say, well, what will people say? You know, what if I do this? What would people say? And he'd say, he's got this accent. And he'd be like, hmm, they'll say what they say. Let them say whatever. Let me ask you a question, Megan.

Let me answer your question. You said 12 years with a therapist. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Where do you think you'd be without that emotional support of a therapist or that therapist? If you had zero of that emotional coaching or therapist support over 12 years, but you only relied on just kind of friends and family with normal interactions,

where do you think you'd be either emotionally, internally, externally, all of it? That's a really good question. I would not still be in this industry. Like he helped me build the tools to manage life in an incredibly toxic industry that is very destructive in many ways. And now, you know, I mean, I've always sort of had this general bent toward optimism. You know, I'm, I would say in my news delivery, one of the things people like is I don't depress you. You're not going to leave my hour, even when I was on TV or now feeling just really down, you're usually going to feel pretty happy. So that's my general bent, but this industry will suck that right out

of you if you allow it. And he helped me shore up all those tools to, to do the thing I just said, you know, like, so let them talk, let them say, beautiful husband, go be with your beautiful children and live your beautiful life. You know, like just sort of resetting all the time. And so you, if you don't have such a person in your life today with telehealth and you might not get the person you like on the first try, but like, there are a lot of ways to be, I was surprised to read and actually preparing for this segment, Lewis, that it was only like 20% of the American population is in therapy or has a therapist that they use. I come up to the 80%. It is a gift. It's so, it can be so helpful if you find the right person.

Just wonder if it's been stigmatized or why is the number so low? Oh, I think people are talking about it a lot more because people are just sharing everything online a lot more about, you know, the things they're going through. But I think, you know, I'll speak from my case as a man growing up in Ohio playing sports, you know, just speaking about your emotions wasn't something you were allowed to do in society, nor was it encouraged. So it's just been a conditioning over many, many decades of, well, this isn't what you do.

And I'm sure, you know, women might feel the same thing. But I think as a man, from my personal experience, none of my friends talked about these things. And in fact, when I was in school, if you did talk about something vulnerable, you were made fun of and laughed at or called like a little girl or whatever they wanted to call you. And all you want to do at that stage is fit in, you know, especially if you don't belong and accept yourself, then you want to fit in and be accepted elsewhere. And you start to kind of play into that, that game. So for me, I started doing kind of the

emotional healing and therapy about 10 years ago, off and on. I wasn't always doing it, but I was doing it off and on the last two years. I've done it almost every two weeks for two years. And it has brought me so much peace, clarity, and freedom, emotional freedom, to the point where I'm just like, why would I stop doing this when it continues to support me with all the different challenges that are happening around me? It gives me peace, just like you said, in a toxic environment or industry you may not be in anymore if you didn't have these tools. And I always, I'll go back to sports again when, um, you know, Kobe and Michael Jordan and LeBron and all these guys got to the top and they won the championships. They didn't say to themselves, you know, like coach, I think I got this figured out on my own. I don't need a coach anymore. Like I'm just going to run the team. I'm going to do my own practice. I'm going to work myself out all on my own.

I'm going to push myself 100% every day. And I think I'm going to make another championship on my own. No, these guys are wise. And they say, how can I actually find more great coaches to add to my team, more support, and work on the deficiencies I might have here or there in my game or my mental deficiencies that help me overcome challenges or insecurities. These guys don't say, I'm going to have less coaches. They say, I'm going to get more great coaches to support me on my mission of winning a championship. And I think it's wise, Megan, when we... We'll get a coach for the gym, we'll get a coach for

our careers or our business, but a lot of people won't have an emotional coach or a therapist or some type of person guiding them emotionally. And I just think it's wise to have an emotional coach or a therapist to support you. And you don't have to do it every week or every month, but just having someone when you're feeling like, man, I just feel a little bit off and I want to get back on track. So I have good energy. I think it's wise to invest in it or to find a friend that you really just had this discussion today. So my, my therapist, um, we don't have a standing, uh, right now, but I had this weird dream last night that I died of bone cancer. It was very dark. And Abby's like, I'm making you an appointment with Z. That's what we call them. We're getting

going back to Z, which by the way, please make me an appointment with Z ASAP because I think I do. And also with a dermatologist. She's also a coach to me. That's great. You take many different looks. All right, listen, let's end it on sort of a forward looking, optimistic note. And I could definitely use some help on this.

I have to tell you. Define your goals. You need this is from your book, chapter 15, you need to have set goals and the focus and drive to achieve them. Take time to define your goals. I'm like ready to write a little sad face in the, in the margin Lewis, because I'm not very good at this. So why is this important? And what should that look like? You know, like king of the world or like, yeah, I don't know what, I don't even know what it that look like? You know, like king of the world or like, yeah, I don't know what, I don't even know what it should look like. Cause I really do.

Well, let me, let me start with the finding the definition of success versus the greatness. All I wanted growing up was to be successful and success is about accomplishing your own goals and dreams. And there's nothing wrong with success. But I think success by itself can be selfish. And I realized when I would set and accomplish goals, and I was very good at that. That became a skill of mine was setting and accomplishing goals. I was accomplishing that definition of success. And I was making it happen, but I wasn't feeling

fulfilled still. And I didn't know why I wasn't still fulfilled or happy to the thought where I was supposed to be happy. It wasn't until 10 years ago when I started to go through this process of kind of healing and looking at these things differently that I realized I had it all wrong. That success for me was about me winning and other people losing. It was about me being right and other people being wrong. And again, that's a very lonely game. It's a lonely existence in this world. When I started to study greatness and really take a look at myself in the mirror better and say, wow, I've actually got a lot of deficiencies and I've got a lot of imperfections and I've got a lot of insecurities and fears that I get to face and create new meaning and healing around.

I said, my whole goals and dreams must include the service of other people in accomplishing them. And I'll tell you what, these last 10 years, a lot has changed because I feel so much more rewarded and fulfilled emotionally, mentally, and spiritually on a daily basis. Again, I'm not a perfect human being, but on a consistent basis, because I'm thinking, how can I set clear conscious goals, greatness goals, which must, if it's about greatness it must include other people in accomplishing them so it must include the empowerment of others lifting them up it must include being a positive force for good if i'm winning then others need to win around me as well

and it's also it's not a right and wrong game It's about how can we all be uplifted in the actions that I want to take of accomplishing my dreams and goals. And for me, that's the definition of greatness. It's pursuing your goals and dreams, using your talents in those pursuits and making a positive impact on the people around you. It's not necessarily accomplishing and winning the championships at the highest level or exiting for a billion dollars, although that is fun and great if you do it. But I just truly believe you're not going to feel

rewarded and fulfilled emotionally, mentally, and spiritually if you're not including others in that process in a positive way. So that's the way I look at it. So this is evidence of your time doing the School of Greatness, where you've interviewed so many great thinkers from Jordan Peterson, so many examples. I was going down the list. I was like, wow, David Goggins. But the one that what you just said reminded me of is Kobe Bryant. And you're so lucky that you got to talk to him before his untimely death.

And we pulled just a little bit about it, which holds beautifully what you just said. Here it is from 2018. The final question is, what's your definition of greatness? I think the definition of greatness is to inspire the people next to you. I think that's what greatness is or should be.

It's not something that lives and dies with one person. It's how can you inspire a person to then in turn inspire another person that then inspires another person and that's how you create something i think lasts forever yeah and i think that's our challenge as people is to um is to figure out how our story can impact others and motivate them in a way to create their own greatness oh my god i have the chills that is like oh it's so spot on and i'm so glad you got that for us before he passed and little did he

know of course he lived that he lived that exact thing he was saying one should do and it is why he's considered great despite personal foibles that he had we all have them um what what a soundbite looking back on that now you must that must mean a lot to you again it was one of my favorite interviews i had before his passing um i was just like because he talked about love he talked about family talked about impact he talked about telling better stories and i was wow, I was seeing a side of him that I hadn't seen from his playing days. And specifically his definition. I was just like, yeah, it's about the ripple you make on the people around you. And it's about how they feel your love.

He talked about love a lot in this episode. And I was like, huh, I'm used to hearing great athletes talk about winning and success and championships at all costs. But he was like, it's about love, love of the game, love for your family, love your friends. And like you said, like no human being is perfect. We all make mistakes. I've made plenty of them. And greatness is not about being perfect, but it is about progress. And it is about owning the responsibilities of your life and working towards making a positive impact on others. And I think that's what he did so well. Wow. Lewis, what a pleasure meeting you. I hope we can meet again and chat more. I really,

really enjoyed this. I appreciate it. We're going to, we got to be in person. I got to have you on my show, but in person next time. So I can give you a hug. I would love that. Wow. So great talking with Lewis, his new book, the greatness mindset, unlock the Power of Your Mind and Live Your Best Life Today is available tomorrow. And we are off tomorrow, but we will be back on Wednesday with the EJs. You know, the gals love them. Talk to you then. Looking forward to it. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show show no bs no agenda and no fear