The Megyn Kelly Show - NBA's China Hypocrisy on Human Rights and COVID Reality, with Enes Kanter Freedom and David Leonhardt | Ep. 215

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Enes Kanter Freedom, NBA player, David Leonhardt, New York Times senior writer, and Karol Markowicz of the New York Post, to talk about how Freedom got involved in highlighting human rights abuses, the hypocrisy of LeBron James and Nike, Freedom's "morals over money" stance, what the NBA told Freedom about his shoes (and what he told NBA commissioner Adam Silver), Mayor Bill de Blasio's latest crazy COVID vaccine mandate for kids, the real risk of COVID for young kids, the reality of "long COVID," the truth about whether masks work, the psychology benefits of new COVID treatments, how COVID will "end," whether we'll ever find a middle ground on COVID in America, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday. Christmas is coming and it's time to do your shopping. We've got a big show for you today while you surf online or get about your business. Just a bit later, we're going to be talking about the latest on COVID from vaccines to variants with David Leonhardt of the New York Times, who has been doing some of the best reporting on COVID of anyone in the mainstream media. Really looking forward to that conversation and some new information just coming out today on the booster shots. If you've had double Pfizer's, should you get the third

shot if you're going to get one from J&J? Wait until you hear what they just found. We're going to get to all of that. Plus, New York City's Mayor de Blasio has lost his mind, and so has Oregon. But we begin this hour with NBA player Ennis Cantor Freedom, who's taking on anyone he believes is remaining too silent when it comes to China's human rights abuses. Wall Street, big business, Hollywood, and even the NBA's biggest stars. Meanwhile, he has become an American citizen in his place for the Boston Celtics. He's currently in L.A. to match up against LeBron James' Lakers tomorrow night, and he joins me now.

Ennis, welcome, and congratulations on becoming an American. Thank you for having me. I appreciate that. It's amazing. All right, so just for our viewers and our listeners who don't know your background, tell us a little bit about where you grew up in your childhood. I'm born in Switzerland, and I grew up in Turkey. My whole life, I was up in Turkey. And, you know, my whole life, you know, I was a Turkish citizen. And I moved to America when I was, you know, 70 years old to come here and go to college and play basketball at the same time.

Because, you know, for me and for my family, education was always so important. And I moved here back in 2009. And I've been living here since. Is basketball big in Turkey? It's the second biggest sport. Soccer is obviously number one and basketball comes second. Okay. So how did you get so good, right? Because if you're coming over here to play basketball at age 17, you must've been a standout. You know, I actually wanted to be a soccer player and obviously I was too told for it too slow for it and all my friends

were telling me exactly sir you need to switch sports and I start playing basketball actually pretty pretty late I was 14 years old when I first started Wow I was good at it I was the tallest one of my classroom and you know I was like happens to be 6 11 now so 6 wow. So who brought you over to the United States? You know, I have pretty much like a life coach. And he brought me, he's like, listen, you know, in Turkey, you're only going to play basketball. That's it. But if you come to America, obviously, you're going to get the best education.

You're going to have a degree. And obviously, after that, you're going to play in the best basketball league in the world. And that really attracted me because my dad was a genetic prayer professor. And he always wanted me to be a good student for a good basketball player. So that was the biggest reason that I chose to come to America. So you come over here and you don't have family, right? Because your dad had to stay behind. Exactly.

I didn't have a family. No mom, no dad, no any siblings. I just came here all by myself. And how long did it take for you to get into the NBA? It pretty much took two years. One year I went to prep school here in California, and then I went to college in Kentucky, and then I got drafted by Utah Jazz. At age what? At age 19, actually.

Oh my God, you're telling me five years after you started to play basketball, you got drafted into the NBA? I'm glad I picked the right sport. That's crazy. That's so amazing. I mean, obviously, it's a combination of natural talent and hard work. So that's awesome. So you get drafted. And at this point, when you were in your late teens to 20 or so, were you active when it comes to human rights or politically? In any way, were you active? I actually wasn't at all. My first two years in the league, all I cared about was just playing basketball.

Playing basketball, having fun with my teammates, trying to win games. And it all started back in my third year, back in 2013. That was the first time I started to pay attention about what's going on around the world more. And why? Because, I mean, obviously we're talking to you today about the stance you've taken on China. Because it's so unusual. I mean, we've been covering it for a long time as news people saying, why don't why don't people like LeBron James speak up? You know, and I had Mark Cuban on my show when I first launched it a year ago, and I pressed him, why don't you speak up? You're so big on BLM. What let's like, what about the human rights abuses

in China, where, you know, you take a lot of money from? And no one does. So it's so unusual that you to hear you was like, wait, I don't follow sports, Forgive me. And so I was like, who is this guy? What's he saying? Oh, my God, this is so unusual. So what led you to China as a cause? You know, I remember, you know, when I was nine years old, my mom told me that, you know, stand up for the things that you believe and stand up things for right, you know, even if it means pretty much like sacrificing everything you have. After that moment, I was just standing up for the right things, everything, every time. Back in 2013, there was a corruption scandal that happened in Turkey, and a Turkish president and his family was involved in it.

And that was the first time I said something because I know what he started with people in jail, you know, police, judges, and persecutors. And I was like, this is just not right. And obviously I said something and because of the platform, it became a big conversation here in the United States and Turkey. And I was like, wow, even one word,

my one sentence can make this much of an impact. So from now on, I'm going to start paying attention about what's going on around the world more. So I started to study about Turkey, the relationship between Turkey and America, foreign policy and everything. I remember my teammates were going out to eat and hang out and party and stuff. I would just go back home and study. That's smart. But Turkey's not so big on your messaging or on free speech in general. And as I understand it, how many arrest warrants have they issued for you now?

The last four years, I got 10 of them. 10. Excellent. So you won't be going home anytime soon. Definitely not. But this is your home now. You've chosen to live here, and you've actually chosen, as we said at the top, to become an American citizen. So why was that important to you? You know, to me, it was very important because I remember the day I stepped in this country back in 2009.

This was my dream, to become a citizen. And obviously I talk about this Turkish issue so much, they revoked my passport, put my name on Interpol list. So I didn't have a home. I was a person who was stateless. And last time I was back at home, it was back in 2015. And that was the last time I saw my family. So American people opened their arm and gave me a warm welcome from day one. They gave me the opportunity to become myself. They gave me the opportunity to become one of the best, playing the best league in the world.

So I was very blessed to be in this situation. So I was like, I think the best thing I can do right now is just become a part of this greatest nation. And you actually changed your last name, right? I mean, did you keep Cantor at all? Is that still in there? Or is it just Ennis Freedom now? Well, Cantor, obviously, I did not disrespect. I didn't want to disrespect my family. So I did keep Cantor and made him my middle name. But the reason I picked Freedom is actually a funny story because first time I came to America back in 2009, one of my teammates was criticizing the president. And I got so scared for him. I was like, dude, what are you doing?

They're going to put you in jail. He turned around and said, listen, this is not America. This is not Turkey. This is America. You know, you have a freedom. This is not Turkey. This is America. You know, you can, you have a freedom. I was very shocked, you know, and then the more I lived here, I learned about obviously pretty much speech,

religion, expression, pretty much press. And I saw a lot of, you know, democracy and everything. So it was, for me, it was very, I was, I was just very shocked to learn about all this stuff, you know, and I wanted to make that work part of me. So that's why for me, it was very important to add freedom. I wanted to carry that word everywhere I go. You probably know that there's a push, especially on college campuses now, to erode that freedom, the freedom of speech.

You can't say this. You can't say that. Words are violence. You know, certain opinions should not be offered. Certain speakers should not be allowed on campus. It never used to be this way. This is a relatively new phenomenon. I've spoken out against it. Many have because we're more old school, believing in the First Amendment. But as somebody who's got your interesting background and perspective, what do you make of what's happening now with that? I mean, I don't know about the situation, but I think, you know, like the First Amendment is the greatest amendment, you know, for the most speech. And obviously, you know, I mean, people should be very blessed because just because of the tweets you put out there or just because of the speeches that you talk, you're not going to be put in jails. So I think it is important for people to speak their mind because that is going to bring the change. People need to wake up and speak up about issues that are not just happening

in America, but all over the world. So it is important to use that amendment. That's right. And it's worth fighting for. It's worth fighting for, even if people are going to say things to you that you might not like to hear. Either way. Okay, so you're a true believer. I know you love the country. I mean, the converts always are, right? Whether it's religion or citizenship.

They're the truest believers. So you take a look at what's happening in China and find it very disturbing, I'm sure, for a number of reasons. I understand you're Muslim. Yes. And what's happening to the Chinese minorities, the Muslims there, the Uyghurs, is horrific. I mean, it's truly an ethnic cleansing underway right there.

Is that what caught your interest? Is that why this became important to you? You know, I remember doing a basketball camp this summer and I was taking pictures with the kids. Is that what caught your interest? Is that why this became important to you? You know, I remember doing a basketball camp this summer, and I was taking pictures with the kids. And one of the parents turned around and said, how can you call yourself a human rights activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are in concentration camps and getting tortured and raped every day?

I was shocked. I turned around to that parent. I was like, I promise you I'm going to get back to you. I remember I had so much things scheduled every day. I was shocked. I turned around to that parent. I was like, I promise you, I'm going to get back to you. I remember I had so much things scheduled that day. I canceled everything. I went back to my hotel and I started to study and research about what's going on. And the more I read, the more I was ashamed of myself because I was like, I could not believe the last 10 years I was just blindly was focusing on only one topic, and it was Turkey.

And I was like, I'm going to do everything I can to just change that, you know. And, you know, I started to do research, and the more research I have done, I saw what Tibetans are going through, what Uyghurs people are going through, what Hong Kongers are going through, what Taiwanese are going through, what Mongolians are going through. So it did break my heart. And I was like, you know, I don't know how many years that I've been left in the league, but for now, I'm going to do everything I can to bring some real change because many people are very, very scared. So I was like, you know what?

I remember what my mom told me when I was nine years old. I'm just going to do what I can to help those people. Now, when you did your research, did it bring up the tweet by Houston Rockets GM Daryl Morey who tweeted support for Hong Kong? A tiny little tweet

which caused such a major controversy. I remember following that tweet two years ago. And, you know, when he put the tweet out there, and obviously after that, after he deleted it,

I saw the reaction that the leak came. I was just very disgusted, very shocked. I was like, wow. So like NBA is the one that encouraging us to stand up for the things that we believe in not just in america but all over the world but just because of china's paying the bills

right the mba is making billions of dollars i was like listen i'm not gonna this is just crazy to me um and i was just following what what was going on and it did break my heart i was like i'm gonna do more research. And I did, you know, the thing is, I did not watch YouTube clips. I did not watch reports. I actually sit down with the concentration camp survivors. I sit down with Hong Kongers.

I sit down with Tibetans. I sit down with Taiwanese people and had a conversation with them because I wanted to hear from firsthand what they are going through. And I remember sitting down with this sports nutrition camp survivor, and the things that she was telling me, it was, I just, I don't know if any human being can hold their tears up while they're listening to her.

She was telling me about how she was getting gang raped every day. She was getting tortured every day. She was telling me about some of the, you know, the torture methods that they were doing. And I was like, I couldn't believe it. The more I listened, the more I was shaming myself. And I was like, I'm going to do everything I can. I'm going to use this platform to be the first one ever to bring some real change. Well, that's underway. What's fascinating about Ennis is he's done so much more than Daryl Morey. I mean, good for Daryl for for taking the risk and sending out that tweet on Hong Kong. But it was an earthquake within the NBA because that's an organization that up to now

does not allow criticism of China. They make too much money off of Chinese business and doing business in China and with the Chinese. And so for Ennis to speak out in the way he has, and we'll get into the specifics in a minute, is truly courageous. And I'm wondering about the blowback. We'll pick it up there right after this quick break. so ennis you decided um to speak out about china and its human rights rights abuses and they're awful i mean you could go down the list you can i can see a couple of them right on your shirt um but in particular any company any country committing an ethnic genocide ought to be called out but so many here have been terrified to do it. And most notably, the NBA, which makes a lot of money off of China every year. In particular, you went after LeBron James

tweeting money over morals for the king. That's his nickname. And they really do shut up and dribble when the big boss says so. What is it about LeBron James in particular that led you to single him out on his unwillingness to criticize China? Obviously, not just him, I did criticize many other athletes. But like when it comes to him, obviously, he is the face of NBA. And, you know, when Daryl Moore tweeted something about it two years ago, when the media asked him about it, he said, well, he's not educated enough. And also, he said Daryl hurt the league, and the league's been having tough times and stuff.

That really opened my eyes. I just couldn't believe it. But obviously, before everything, he is pretty much the face of Nike, and Nike is the biggest sponsor of the NBA. And to me, the important thing is I want to tell not just him, but all the athletes, you need to educate yourself before you put your signature on a paper and sign these millions of dollars of deals with these companies

where they are pretty much modern-day slavery, where they are using slave labor as sweatshirts. And to me, it was a hypocrisy when an athlete talks about social justice issues, but when it comes to Nike or China, they're remaining silent. So to me, it was very hard to see. So I was like, I have to say something about it. Do you think the problem is that LeBron James doesn't know about China's human rights abuses? I mean, I'm not sure.

The thing is, I need to sit down and have a conversation. And I hope he does, you know, and I'm sure he does. But it's just like, like I said, again, he's not the only one. You see, there's so many athletes, you know, out there are making millions of dollars from these companies, which are, they are bought, bought into China. So I feel like they need to, if they're not educated, they need to sit down with someone and educate themselves. There's no way that LeBron James at this point does not know about the ethnic genocide in China and the forced labor. There's just, and that Nike uses, though it denies it.

Don't you think the more likely scenario is he just chooses not to make that an issue for himself and that the, you know, the checks keep getting cashed and it's just too lucrative a deal? I mean, that's what I said. I was like, you know, morals over money, principles and values over money. You know, I couldn't sleep at night when I know that my brothers and sisters are going through, you know, genocide. I couldn't sleep at night. So I'm hoping in my heart that he just doesn't know. I'm sure he does, but in my heart, I'm just hoping he doesn't know.

You know, because a human being cannot wear their shoes or wear those items and go out there and play when they know that what people are going through is pretty much a genocide. Because there is so much blood and sweat and oppression on those items. So it's just unacceptable. LeBron James in November was asked about your criticism. He said, you are not someone that you're not someone he will give his energy to. He went on to say that you had an opportunity to speak with him after a game, but instead you walked by, walked by him in the hallway. He said, you're trying to use him to create an opportunity for yourself. Your response?

I mean, this is unbelievable because first of all, I did see him on the court. But the tunnel thing, I actually stopped to take a picture with a kid. And he was one, literally was behind me and walked right past me. And actually, my assistant coach was with me. But I'm not going gonna just go back and forth or you did you saw me otherwise I just want to have a literally see have a sit down a conversation and ask about like and how I don't you know the important thing is we need to find a way to these athletes to join the right cause you know because that's when we're gonna have the real

change you know criticizing obviously is important it we're going to have the real change. You know, criticizing obviously is important. It wakes people up. The important thing is what can I do to make, you know, these superstars like Steph, LeBron, Kevin Durant, all this, you know, not just the sport athlete, but the sports world. It's not that hard. It's really not that hard. And by the way, before I get into my example,

are you going to try to speak with him tomorrow night at the game? I mean, I hope so. That's my goal because I do want to sit down and have a conversation with him because once he joins, once other joins, it's going to be even a bigger cause. Great. I look forward to seeing how that goes. But you're right. It's not that hard. I mean, we're seeing the Women's Tennis Association do it right now. The head of the organization say we will not be playing any tournaments in China. And that until we find out what happened to missing tennis player Peng Shui, and all the nonsense about people having spoken to her the IOC saying, Oh, yeah, we've spoken to her. No one has reason to believe what they're saying. They've covered for China for

a long time IOC.. But it's not only IOC, and I've been very critical in the past of Naomi Osaka for other reasons. To her credit, she spoke out directly on behalf of Peng Shui saying, we need real answers. So did Serena Williams. So these are the biggest stars in tennis, and in particular women's tennis, having no qualms about calling out china and it does hurt their bottom line but lebron james who's very outspoken on other issues and and the others you know he's not the only one you're right won't say anything so what's the matter because they're already multi-millionaires you know what i mean that how many millions do they need

i mean first of all every major you major association in America should take notes about what WTA is doing. I mean, I applaud their courage. And I just wish that, you know, not just them, if the other leagues, other organizations started to join, you know, tennis association, it's going to you know, it's like Serena Williams, it's almost like, it's just, that's the athletes that we need to look up to. You know, those are so important persons to just, they are standing up for what's right. They don't care about the millions of dollars coming from China, endorsement deals, this and that. You know, they're standing up for the right things. And I feel like that's what we all need to do. I can understand if an athlete doesn't want to get political at all, just wants to make it about the basketball. That, to me, makes some sense.

But if you're going to be an activist, I mean, it does seem a little odd to let this be the one country you won't say anything about. There's a difference between being political and standing up for human rights. My whole

time, I never said, oh, we should vote for this guy, we should standing up for human rights. I never, my whole, you know, time, I never said, oh, we should vote for this guy. We should stand up for, no, I'm only saying, you see all my interviews, I'm saying, standing up for human rights, standing up for democracy, standing up for human rights, let's be the voice of innocent people out there, not just in America, but all over the world.

So I don't do politics, I do human rights. That is a big difference. So I'm inviting all these athletes, not just in America, but all over the world. So I don't do politics. I do human rights. That is a big difference. So I'm inviting all these athletes, not just athletes, but you see like hypocritical actors like John Cena or like many other people out there are just scared to say something. It was crazy. John Cena, what he did was absolutely nuts. He spoke out in Taiwan, and then he got publicly shamed. And then he spent

I mean, he did the most groveling apology about Taiwan and its independence. It was pathetic. But you you walk the walk. I mean, I just looking at the people you've made appearances with, not many people can say that they have been invited to and did make public appearances with both Gavin Newsom, Hakeem Jeffries on the one side, and Senator Tim Scott, and Tom Cotton on the other. You've been with Ambassador John Bolton and Adam Schiff. I mean, you really do live it, and I appreciate that. You go on MSNBC, you go on Fox. It did lead me to wonder whether you might be planning a future in politics so you could actually make a difference in other ways, too. Not that you're not now.

You are doing something important now. Right. You know, it is important to put the right people in politics because you can literally change the country's direction. So, you know, when I sit down with so many politicians, Democrats and Republicans, you know, the first thing they tell them is, listen, you have a bright future in politics. After your basketball career career please consider it and i was like you know what i am actually considering it you know after my basketball career i don't know how long i'm going to be playing in the nba but after my sports career for sure i'd love to you know just start getting

american politics that's amazing now wait i have to ask you, because I did read that after you expressed support for Tibet, the Celtics games were pulled from Chinese media. So have you gotten any blowback from your team or your fellow players for that? You know, my teammates are my biggest supporters. They are the ones that give me so much hope and motivation to fight for what's right it was disgusting to see you know just because if i put a free tibet on my feet and went out there and play my manager texted me at halftime i said listen man all the celtics games in china are banned and how that shows one more time there's a dictatorship happening that could show clearly the whole world just because of I put the shows and it's like are you kidding me they're like you have free Tibet on your sneakers and you get and and the Celtics

get basically kicked out of Chinese television so they're supportive of you I mean that's amazing given what happened to Daryl Morey again who just sent out a little tweet about Hong Kong and then everyone rained down on him in the NBA I'll tell you I'll tell you this story not many people knows about like I remember wearing those shoes. Right before the game, there's two gentlemen came from the NBA and said, take those shoes off. I'm like, excuse me? He said, yep, take those shoes off. I was like, I'm not taking those shoes off.

They're like, listen, we are begging you to take those shoes off. And I asked him, am I breaking any rules? They said, no. And I said, okay. I was like, there is 27 amendments because I was getting ready for my citizenship. That's not my first amendment. It's a free speech and you're taking that away from me.

And after that, I was like, go tell your boss. I don't care if I get banned or fined. I'm not taking this shoes off. Wow. That game, I played zero minutes. Wait, who was it who told you to take them off? Some NBA officials. Literally right before the game while I was on the bench.

So not your team officials, but NBA officials. They told me to, obviously, they wanted to take me to locker room to take my shoes off. And then after that, I told them, no, I'm not going to take my shoes off. And at halftime, they came and apologized. I was like, because I told them a lot, I'm not going to take my shoes off and in the half time they came and apologized I was like because I told them a lot

I'm not going to take my shoes off go tell your and you know I had a conversation with Adam Silver and I asked Adam I was like Adam listen

you know I've been getting so much like blowback and so much pressure from the league am I breaking any rules he said no he said okay don't do not

I'm not from now on. I don't want anyone to call me from the league to take my shoes off or put a statement out there. Good for you. That's amazing because he's not been so strong

on all of this. Those guys better watch it or their name's going to be on your sneaker next. You're not afraid. You are not afraid unlike most of the guys you're playing with.

And I love that you're leading by example. Now, have you spoken out on all of it from the tennis player punctuate to their abuses to Nike's abuses and so on? And as we need dozens, hundreds more just like you look, congrats on the path you're taking. And on your new citizenship. I'm proud to call you an American. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate that. It'm proud to call you an American. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate that. It's an honor.

All the best. Wow. Amazing, right? Just a little dose of courage to start your week with. It is inspirational. This guy's been labeled an international terrorist by Turkey. Ten arrest warrants out for him

because he won't stop speaking out about them. Threatened by his own league, the biggest star in the league diminishing him and so on. He just keeps on going. You can too. Coming up, we're going to talk about de Blasio's latest push on vaccine mandates with Carol Markowitz of the New York Post. He's lost his ever-loving mind.

He's only in office for another month. What does he think he's doing? And did you hear what Oregon is doing now when it comes to masks? Parts of the country are losing their mind, and we'll take it up right after this break. Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show. Just a few hours ago, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio pulled a Bill de Blasio announcing a new COVID-19 vaccine mandate for all private businesses in the city, catching many of said businesses and citizens off guard. It takes effect just days before he's leaving office. And despite the fact that the city is already among the highest vaccination, highest has among the highest vaccination rate rates in the country. All

right. Almost I think over 90 percent of New Yorkers have had at least one jab. This is insane. Doesn't matter. It's not enough. Joining me now, Carol Markowitz, a columnist with The New York Post. Carol, good to have you. Where did this come from? No, I think he is a really political guy who is making plans for his future. And this is the way he's doing it. I think this is part of his governor run, honestly. He knows that- Is he insane? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense in the context of doing what's best for New York City, but he's never done what's best for New York City.

So this is sort of just part of that. What I've been pointing to is that shortly before he announced he was running for president, he did a big spectacle thing at Trump Tower announcing that he was gonna force the Trump administration did a big spectacle thing at Trump Tower announcing that he was going to force the Trump administration, not the Trump administration, the Trump organization to pay if they didn't retrofit their buildings to be greener. And it was a big spectacle and it got him a lot of news. I mean, it didn't help with his zero point zero poll numbers,

but he enjoys making a big splash before he announces, I think, the next office. And it's it's at the expense of New Yorkers, because what he's saying is that we already have in New York a mandatory a vaccine mandate for government workers. And if you want to go into a restaurant or like a basketball game or a gym, you already have to show your vaccine card. But now it's expanding to cover all private businesses. And tell us about the kids. Well, the thing is that the vaccine mandate that we have in place has not brought down COVID numbers. I also keep saying that when it was implemented in October, the idea was to bring down our COVID case rate, right? Otherwise, what was the point?

But today we have either the same or higher case numbers than we did when that vaccine mandate was implemented. So this is another also the scrambling to find something else to do to bring that number down, because what we've done so far has been completely ineffective. But of course, doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity. do to bring that number down because what we've done so far has been completely ineffective. But of course, doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity. And that's the kind of crazy place that New York has become. The idea that kids will not be allowed into indoor spaces is- Can you explain it? I didn't set it up yet to the five to 11 year olds, what he's doing now with them. Yeah. Yeah. It's really wild because kids are, you know, gratefully really not susceptible to COVID. I don't think that a lot of parents are rushing out to get their five to 11 year olds vaccinated because they simply don't need it. And if forcing

them to do it, to be able to eat at restaurants or to go into, you know, museums or something is really terrible and it's really going to hurt New York City. at restaurants or to go into museums or something is really terrible. And it's really going to hurt New York City. Because before you could go into a restaurant as a grown up with your littles and you could show your vaccination card. You know, you got to show your papers and your littles would not have to. And now he's changing it such that all kids between the ages of five and 11 also have to prove that they've been vaccinated in order to eat out at a New York City restaurant or go to a Knicks game or, you know, go to some other indoor facility like a museum because Bill de Blasio says so. So you

got to stick a needle in your five-year-old's arm because it's going to make him feel better during his last month in office. And it kicks in in like two weeks, I think. It says, well, let's see. Yeah, next week. Next week. So and by the way, to your point, only 10% of American parents have gotten a jab for their five to 11 year olds. Parents are not rushing to be the first to try this out on their children. Yeah. The thing is that the fact that it takes effect next week, December 14th, it's all these families that had planned to come to New York City for the holidays are now having to cancel their trips or make a really tough decision that they need to vaccinate their kids against a virus that largely does not affect them in order to make that trip. pro-vax. I've been vaccinated. I made sure that my mom has been boosted. I may get a booster down the road. I just don't see the point of vaccinating the population of children that is really not susceptible to this. And it's something that parents across the country are making that same calculation. And once again, you cannot test out of the vax mandate. So you can't satisfy anybody by proving that you don't have COVID.

And there's no recognition of natural immunity. So if your kid just got over COVID and is probably the most immune person walking on earth right now because he's a kid and he just got over COVID, you still have to vax him, which, by the way, may not be safe, according to the doctors we had on my show last week. You really need to talk to your doctor before you vaccinate your child if he or she has just had COVID. But Bill de Blasio says you have to do it if you want to come and see the Rockefeller Christmas tree from anywhere indoors while sipping a hot cocoa. Right. The lack of natural immunity being used in our society is really just another another layer of COVID insanity. You actually can come

into the U.S., you can look it up on the State Department website, with evidence of natural immunity. We just don't allow it for any part of American society otherwise, which obviously makes no sense. And also the kids that, you know, that they're pushing now to get vaccinated have also just been living in the most harshest condition. They've been masked every day at school, including outside in New York City public schools. And who else does that? Who else masks that hard except the lowest risk population of children? And it's all really unfortunate because I don't see a massive uprising against this. I don't see New Yorkers deciding to say, no, we're not going to stand for it. They've just been rolling over. And it's really been depressing to see my city like this.

Yeah. Same thing inside the schools. As you know, we've discussed why I left, right? Rolling over on the CRT and the crazy, you know, trans education stuff, which is totally inappropriate. And now with the COVID protocols that are totally unnecessary, not backed by science. Can I stop you for that one for a second on the masks outside and what they're doing? I think most of my listeners are in places where they're like, what? I don't think everybody believes we're still doing this to our kids in New York. Yeah. And I think when I tell stories about what's happening in New York City schools, I get such emails like,

how are you still putting up with this? And I ask myself that all the time. And in fact, I think this is it for our family. We're leaving. This is the end for us. You're doing it. You said you might when I talked to you last. Yeah. But it's just, I don't see an end to the crazy. And I think that the city has really been lost, especially where kids are concerned. They're put last again and again. The outdoor masking, kids largely eat lunch outside at New York City public schools sitting on the ground. When it gets too cold, some schools move them in, but it only started happening recently after the New York Post broke the story of that. Largely, schools across the city are still eating

lunch on the ground outside. And that's the only time of the whole day that kids are allowed to remove their masks. And nobody else lives like this. Doctors don't live like this. Doctors leave the hospital and take their masks off. Yet we have five-year-olds who take off their mask for 20 minutes to have their sandwich and have to put it right back on. Oh my gosh, so infuriating. David Leonhard of the New York Times is coming on in a minute. I'm looking forward to our conversation. But one of the things he's been, he really is, he's in a position that's very powerful, right? Because he works for the New York Times. And so his audience is the group that we need to convince on some of these crazy measures. You know, forget, you know, the larger points, but like some of these crazy measures, you know, forget, you know, the larger points,

but like some of these crazy measures we should be able to agree on, like the kids should not have to wear the masks outside. They should not be forced to eat their lunches outside. And one of the points he's been making is that there's basically zero evidence that you can even get COVID outside, nevermind as a child, which who are they are the least effective vectors of the disease. And actually, there was just a study that came out suggesting why that is they just have smaller lungs. And they found out that adult men are actually the most effective spreaders of COVID and children are the least effective. Yeah. And we've seen that through the numbers, you know, more men die of COVID than women. It's like we just refuse to face the realities of what's happening. And there's a reason that kids are dying in such tiny numbers. I mean, look, every single death is a tragedy, but we don't shut down our world. We don't force kids to mask indefinitely when they die of the flu, for example. And far more kids die of the flu every year than have died of COVID. So we continue to

do these things that don't actually help anything. I think that's what really drives me the craziest is I would, if I thought that this worked, I would put my kids in an N95 mask. I would be really careful. I might homeschool them. I might push for remote learning. If I thought they were in danger, there are things that I would do, but they're not in danger. We have the data. It's been available this whole time. It's not new. That's the other thing. I, you know, I love David Leonhardt. I think he's an amazing writer and I love that he is bringing, you know, information that so many of the rest of us already know to the New York Times readers who haven't heard about it before. But, you know, the information has been out there for a while. We've known about outdoor transmission for quite some time at the end of 2021 right now. And we had this info in the spring of 2020. So it's it's just the gap between the information that we have and the acceptance of that information that really drives me crazy. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because like, as you know, I pulled my kids from the New York schools over the crazy CRT and the other stuff that they're teaching them. And now then the schools we found, I love actually, I really love them. And they they're not really, you know, off the deep end on any of that stuff. However, they are off the deep end on the COVID protocols. And I'll have listeners now comment to me like, why don't you pull them, you know, pull your kids home. I'm like, do you understand that there needs to be some stability in a child's life. You can't just keep

pulling him from school after school. And we're trying to make this work. You know, I just keep hoping that they're going to see reason and settle down. But in too many pockets, especially in blue cities and blue States, it is either going another direction, or at least they're comfortable with stasis where I'm not. That's, you know, you're speaking exactly what I think every single day. I have people on Twitter just constantly being like, oh, just pull your kids, just homeschool, just move. Like, it's not quite that easy. Pre-COVID, we were never leaving New York City ever. And this is going to be our home forever. We're going to raise our kids here. We had a plan for our lives. It's not so simple to just rewrite that plan on a whim. We have family, we have obligations,

but yeah, we, you know, we have to do what's best for our kids and we have to get them out. And what you're saying is exactly my fear of getting them out and then ending up somewhere where they might also, you know, be crazy with the COVID protocols. It's all a worry. I have friends leaving New York City, going to New Jersey. And I say to them, like, well, you know, you might face the same issues there. And they're hopeful that they won't because it's a little bit more sane. But that's not saying much. And it's really difficult to uproot your life to, you know, to get out. But I we're gonna do it. And I, you know, I hope other people can do the same. Are you going back to Florida? I know you, you had spent some of the time there.

You are going back to Florida, DeSantis territory. And is it for these reasons? It's not about the weather. No, I, you know, I always say like Florida always had good weather. They always had low tax rates. It's not that. And like, I love Florida. I've always loved Florida, but it's the sanity when we lived there last year. And the other thing is people say like, oh, but what if DeSantis loses his election or what if Florida trends blue or whatever, all of that is possible. And look, DeSantis, you know, may disappoint me down the road. Also, it's not about the politicians. It's about the people. Everybody I met last year in Florida, left, right, center, everybody was COVID seen. Last spring when we lived there, we lived there in the winter and

spring of last year, nobody was wearing masks outside. And that was, you know, the vaccinations were just coming out. It wasn't like people were 80% vaccinated, like in some places where they're still hardcore masking. And yet everybody knew that wearing masks outside was stupid and they accepted it. And it wasn't politicized like it is in blue areas. It wasn't a symbol of my political party like it is in blue areas. It was just something sane that everybody did. You played sports. The kids played sports outside maskless. We came back to New York City. People kids were still playing sports and masks and continue to do so, you know, through the summer and into the fall. So it's not about the politicians. We can't rely on politicians. We can rely on people being, you know, we hope to rely on the society being sane

where we end up. I know that's I mean, like wherever you live, think about it, especially if you've grown up there. And in my case, and it sounds like yours, too if you've grown up there and in my case and it sounds like yours too i've grown up in in this area i'm a lifelong new yorker my husband is from philadelphia like we don't want to leave the northeast i realize people like well i don't come well no we want reason we want to fight like if you can flee and find the perfect place good for you but if you cannot fight fight there's nothing wrong with staying and fighting that's what i'm doing that's what you've been doing yeah unfortunately i do think you're right. New York City is not winnable. Right. I agree. And I, you know, something that keeps me up at night are all the people I'll be leaving behind that can't leave and, you know, have things that they can't abandon here. And

it's really easy for the random Twitter commenter to say, you know, just move, just move. But a lot of people can't. And I like to point out that, you know, while New York is a very blue state, it had more Republican voters than, you know, some of the reddest states because it's quite large. And there's a lot of people here that don't agree with the blue status quo. But because they're in a minority, they just fighting it is nearly impossible. And I hate abandoning those people. I hear from them every week when I write my columns about COVID insanity. I hear from these people like, I can't leave. I have an elderly mother. I have a business that's been in our family for three generations, etc. So it's not an easy call. And I get it. know, hate that I'm leaving those people behind. Meanwhile, there will be questions about the legality of this de Blasio order, same as we've seen it, you know, the Joe Biden level with OSHA, though, you know, the sad truth is my my instincts tell me de Blasio probably has more power over the city than Joe Biden has over the country. I haven't looked at it legally yet, but I'm concerned that he's got the power. However, I'm a little hopeful that Eric Adams, the incoming mayor, has already kind of he's like, this will be reviewed just as soon as I take office.

He seems like a reasonable man. Do you think he'll undo it? You know, I have some hope that he will, but I'd love to hear him say so. I don't know why he wouldn't. de Blasio is uniquely unpopular. If this is not something that New Yorkers want, I think Eric Adams would have an easy call and just say, I'm going to reverse this on day one. But he hasn't said that. So I my enthusiasm about him is very tempered because he has the opportunity to say, I'm going to do something about this.

And he hasn't. And it's hard. It's hard to take away a, quote, protection once it's been instituted, you know. And so, yeah, you're right. It's somewhat concerning. Speaking of not taking away protection, Oregon was in the news late last week and over the weekend for saying we're going to mask indoors indefinitely now. There's just no end date. They don't like having an end date of 180 days out time after time. Now, Oregonians saying we're just going to mask indefinitely and even some lifelong true deep bluers there are saying that's the hell I'll die on. Your thoughts on it? So I have a running thread of mask hypocrites, you know, mask hypocrite politicians that I started

in August 2020. So it's a really long thread on Twitter. And yesterday I updated it with, or today I updated it with the governor of Oregon who was, you know, seen indoors without a mask just yesterday. So, you know, if masking is so important and it's so dangerous to be without a mask, why are all these politicians in my thread constantly maskless? Do they not care about their own safety? Are they not worried about what's going to happen to them? I mean, in New York, you know, Governor Hochul, she came into office and she moved masking back to two years old. It was it was at five when she came in back to two years old. It was, it was at five when, when she came in back to two years old. So in the daycares now masks have to be on two-year-olds.

This is the person who called a Christmas tree, the holiday tree. It's gone beyond just happy holidays. Now it's now you can't even call a Christmas tree at Christmas tree. It's gotta be a holiday tree. She should enjoy her time in office because I predict it's going to be short lived. Carol, I'm glad you're doing what you feel you need to do to take care of your family. You're not going to stop writing for the Post, right? Oh, no. I'm going to keep going. Good. We need you. So much. So much fun talking to you. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Coming up, David Leonhard of The New York Times on Omicron and much, much more. Don't go away. Joining me now is senior writer and author of The Morning Newsletter for The New York Times, David Leonhardt.

David's perspective on COVID cuts through the daily alarmism and provides a much-needed dose of reality. He is here to talk truth about the new COVID treatments, the latest on Omicron, and much, much more. David, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me, Megan. All right, so let's kick it off with Mayor de Blasio's announcement this morning, just left off with Carol Markowitz of The Post talking about it.

To me, it seems so odd because what we've learned about Omicron, because he's blaming it on Omicron, saying this is our chance to get ahead of it. We're going to get ahead of it by expanding the vaccine mandate to private businesses and mandating that five to 11 year olds get vaccinated as well. What I see on Omicron so far is it's in at least 38 countries, about a dozen United States states within the u.s and the who has still not said definitively that even that it's more contagious never mind that it's more severe or deadly or that it's better at evading the vaccines so i mean do you buy that this is an attempt to get ahead of omicron i'll confess i haven't yet looked at what New York has announced this morning. I've been doing other stuff. But here's what I'd say about Omicron generally. First of

all, I wish I could confidently pronounce it, whether it's Omicron or Omicron. It's terrible. No, it's annoying. I apologize in advance to you and your listeners if I flip back and forth. Mostly, we just don't really know yet. We have a bunch of signals that seem, in some cases, pretty meaningful. And in other cases, I think there's a huge amount of uncertainty. And so the basics, I would say, are it does appear extremely likely that it spreads more easily and more rapidly than Delta. We don't yet know, is that because it just spreads more easily and more rapidly than Delta. We don't yet know, is that because it just spreads more easily and more rapidly between two people who have no protection, meaning they haven't been vaccinated or they haven't previously had COVID, or is it because it's better at escaping that

protection? So we don't really know that, but the overwhelming sign is that it does spread more easily and more rapidly. The other sign, and that's the bad news, the better news is that so far it does not appear to produce more severe illness on average than earlier versions of it. Now, there's uncertainty around that, but as far as we can tell, it does not appear to produce more severe illness based on the information we have so far. As we get more data and more time, that could change. Some people actually think it's milder. The scientists I've talked to have said, eh, I wouldn't put much stock in the possibility that it's milder or the idea that it is,

but at least we should think it's probably not more severe. And so you kind of put those things together and what do they argue for? To me, they do argue for responding in several ways. We do really want to try to slow the spread of this, mostly because we still have a lot of unvaccinated people in the United States who are in enormous risk. And then also even older people who are vaccinated are at some risk, as are people who've had organ transplants and are undergoing cancer treatment. And so I do think some kind of response from politicians is important and appropriate. What do you make of the mandate that by de Blasio that five to 11 year olds get vaccinated? Because I've watched your reporting saying, let's be real, the risk to

children in contracting COVID is low, very low. Yes. So the risk of getting a COVID illness is very low. I find the question of mandating childhood vaccination to be really hard. And I know that you think it's a bad idea. I know there are other people who think it's a good idea. Not to vaccinate them, but to mandate it. I think it should be between a parent and this pediatrician. So I just think it's a really hard question. So let's so as you just said, the the risks of getting serious COVID for kids is extremely, extremely low. It looks like COVID presents the sort of risk to young kids that the flu does. I think it's actually probably a somewhat lower risk than a typical annual flu. Because when you look at the data, the numbers of childhood hospitalizations and deaths are

A, tiny, and B, they look similar or maybe slightly lower for COVID. And then you remember the fact that actually huge numbers of kids are vaccinated for the flu, right? And so if anything, we should kind of expect those to cut the other way. We should expect the flu numbers to be less bad, but they're not. So the first thing I would say is if you have a young kid, I would really encourage you. There are no promises here. There's no 100%. There are no guarantees. Are there kids who get COVID and get really, really sick? There are, but it is extremely, extremely rare. The kind of risk that

COVID presents to kids is not the kind of risk that we ordinarily organize our daily lives around. We don't shut schools and reorder our entire lives because of the scale of this risk. To put it another way, if you are going to reorder your entire life around the risk that COVID presents to a five or six year old, I would say that means you probably should never put your five or six year old in a car. Because it looks like cars present, traveling in cars presents substantially more risk of serious illness to children than COVID does. And so that is why I understand why some people, that combined with the fact that we don't have long-term data on what the vaccines do to people, is why I understand why some people are hesitant to get their kids vaccinated. I do think there are- Right. I mean, that's why this is a thing. That's why it's a big deal to mandate it. You know, this is the first city I've seen nationwide that's mandated that that age group get the vaccine. We saw the L.A. Unified County School District mandate it, but I haven't yet seen a city in America mandate it. Maybe I'm wrong. But not only is the risk of getting really ill from COVID low to children, but what is the risk of contracting long COVID to children? Because that's one thing that parents do worry about.

Again, I don't think they should be mandated to get the vaccine to prevent it. But as I understand it, that too is a relatively low risk. Long COVID is a really, of all the subjects in COVID, there's so much uncertainty about so many different things. And in some ways, this is a silly ranking. There's no need to rank them. But I would rank long COVID as the one with the most uncertainty. People don't even agree about what long COVID is. And so I think we don't have rates of what long COVID looks like. All signs are it is extremely

low among children. But we just don't really know. And I think one of the things to remember about long COVID is that, and this is really hard for people to, I think, grasp, at any time, there are a huge percentage of Americans who have unexplained medical symptoms. Chronic pain. Fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia. I mean, I would encourage all your listeners and viewers to read my friend Ross Douthat's book on his struggle with long-term Lyme disease. I mean, it's just a huge percentage of people out there who have some kind of chronic pain or other things. And they are often unexplained. And so Ross contracted these unexplained symptoms that have subsequently years later been diagnosed as Lyme disease. But imagine that he had gotten these symptoms this year, instead of when he got them, which was 2016, 2015. It would have been absolutely reasonable for him to think that it was a form of long COVID.

And so what I would say is long COVID is real. The symptoms that people are experiencing, those are really real. But I think what is sometimes happening is, or I'm confident this is happening, we are misattributing a substantial amount of the unexplained symptoms, which again, are real, that are always out there to long COVID. And I think that has led to some confusion about how common long COVID is. Now, I do feel compelled to say, we don't know. And to me, the two reasons that it's important to vaccinate kids, we can set aside the mandate question for a second, or we can talk about it, whatever you want. But the reason why I would urge anyone who has young kids to vaccinate them are, one,

there really is uncertainty about the long-term effects of COVID on your kid. I look at the evidence and I say, there is more uncertainty about the long-term effects of COVID on your kid than there is about the long-term effects of vaccine. They're all getting COVID. They're all getting COVID. We're all getting COVID, whether we get vaccinated or not. So to prevent your child from having long-term effects of COVID is fool's gold. I mean, we're all getting COVID, whether we get vaccinated or not. So to prevent your child from having long term effects of COVID is a fool's gold. I mean, we're all going to get it.

Yeah, I think one of the concerns and this I would put in the big category of we don't yet know, is it is possible that Omicron evades the immunity from prior infection better than it evades the immunity from vaccines. We don't know, but that's one of the early studies from South Africa suggests might be the case. If that does prove to be the case, that would be a further argument for everyone getting vaccinated. And then the second one is, look, most young kids have grandparents. They have older people around them in their lives. I know, but that's a personal decision. That's that's that's a person, you know, like that's that's for you to decide whether you want to expose your your their Nana, your mom to that kind of, you know, risk with the child. That's that's what irritates

me is it's like I've seen I've talked before about a mother I know who has a medical note from her doctor saying her kids should not get the vaccine. They have a long history of blood clotting problems in their family. And she presented it to the school and the school said that doesn't qualify. Only if he has a negative reaction to the first shot do we recognize a medical exam. Now, that's insane. That is wrong to deprive a mother who's genuinely concerned, and so is her doctor, about the son's well-being enough that they don't want to give this shot to him. You know, it's like she shouldn't be told, well, you got to protect your Nana, you know, like his Nana, like, and I realize you're not advocating that. But that's what that's what aggravates me about the vaccines. I mean, I read in your

this is from October 12. This is one of your newsletters. You said the risk of long COVID amongst children also appears to be very low. All this raises a thorny question. Should young children be vaccinated? I thought this is very honest of you. You wrote I know some readers will recoil at the mention of that question even. i think it's a mistake to treat it as unmentionable there is not the scientific consensus about vaccinating children that there is about adults and and that's why i think especially with the young ones we only have a 10 vaccination rate so far only 10 have gotten the first shot that you know people parents don't want to go first on their littles and even now i was going to mention it with carol but i forgot um finland apparently just um they're officially not recommending the vaccine for kids 5 to 11 who don't have risk factors

saying infections in children of this age are usually mild and severe disease is extremely rare and when the burden of disease is small in one zone group, very few adverse effects are accepted. I mean, I think they mean the adverse effects from the vaccine, you know, those outweigh. Yeah, look, I, you know, I thank you for quoting from that newsletter. I would, I would repeat all that. I do think this is a hard question. I also I look at the evidence, and I would say that I think the benefits of vaccinating kids outweigh the downsides. I also, I look at the evidence and I would say that I think the benefits of vaccinating kids outweigh the downsides. I mean, basically we kind of don't see any evidence of worrisome side effects in the vaccines. And this history has repeated itself, right? You know, there are

a whole bunch of people, I've gone back and read the cover. It's fascinating. There are a whole bunch of people who said they would not take the polio vaccine when it came out. If you go back and look at the day one newspaper coverage, there were a group of people in Montgomery County, Maryland, which is now, of course, a deep blue part of the country politically, but historically is more part of the South, who said, we're not going to take the polio vaccine. We're worried about what it will do. This isn't a guarantee, but historically, the concerns about vaccine side effects have not borne out. And so it's a close call. I think it's the myocarditis thing. I mean, I think especially for those of us with sons, we worry about that. If you get any sort of heart history in your family in terms of problems, it's like very, very low risk from COVID. Definitely

don't want to do anything that's going to mess with his heart. Realize you can also get myocarditis from COVID. So it's, you know, it's not a great choice for any parent. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's what I've heard a lot of parents worried about myocarditis with children in the vaccine. I mean, I think the risk of serious COVID for kids is so low, right? I think the risk of vaccine side effects is even lower. but I think the risks of serious versions of COVID. So that's both your kids, grandparents. It's also the teachers at school. It's also your church leaders. Have you heard the people say, because we've had doctors talk about how in no other pandemic or health situation have we looked at children as having a responsibility to save the rest of us like that that they that some would argue that it's medically unethical to ask kids in the single digits to take as what is still an experimental vaccine

to protect the elderly yep and you know one of the things i try to do in in my journalism megan is admit when i don't know something and so uh this is where I'm going to, I don't know the history. My sense is that a bunch of the vaccines that we give to kids, it's not just because they cause illness in young children. But it's also that, you know, that whole regimen of shots that we all got polio, mumps, measles, rubella, all of those smallpox, all of those vaccines, that some of that is indeed to protect not just kids, but also adults. But I'm not going to pretend to be a historian of vaccines, because I'm not. And you've just given me a good thing that I should go look up and learn more. What do you make of, and then I have, I want to talk to you about the treatments that have come

out, because you've done some interesting writing on the, you know, the new pills, the therapeutics that are coming um but can we just spend one minute on the masking of children because yeah to me that it just drives me nuts can't stand seeing the new york city kids inside and outside constantly masked outside with six feet apart still masked it's like never ending right so there is, you've, you've just asked about five important questions in that one question, right? So just your phrase never ending, that's really important. I think it's vital that we begin, that we set metrics, not begin. We should have them already. There should be metrics. We are going to have the following interventions like masking until

this point cases fall below a point, and then we're going to stop. We are not starting an era of permanent masking. So I think it's very important to have those. I also think at some point we're layering on seven different interventions in different places, and we're not being honest about the fact that those interventions have costs. So I think vaccines have virtually no cost. I understand not everyone feels that way. But let's talk about distancing. Social distancing has a cost. People cannot interact as well with each other.

Masking has a cost. It makes teaching more difficult. Kids don't develop emotional intelligence as rapidly because they're not seeing people's responses. I would point out masking is particularly difficult for young children, for people who are hard of hearing, and for children with learning disabilities. And this notion that you sometimes see people saying, well, I don't have a problem masking, or my kid doesn't have a problem masking, it's been easy peasy for them. That doesn't mean it is for everybody's kids. And masking clearly has downsides. And so,

look, I think masking also helps reduce the spread of COVID. It's not anywhere near the level of vaccines. It's a modest effect, but it's not zero. So in a time where we have COVID spreading more rapidly, which is the case now, I don't have any problem with being asked to put a mask on again in a grocery store. It doesn't bother me. But I think we really, because there's basically no cost to my wearing it in a grocery store. There is a cost to asking kids to be wearing masks in school and particularly young kids. And as a society, I don't think we are grappling enough with the costs of that. And maybe this is a moment where we should be moving towards somewhat more masking, even in schools. But I think the baseline of where we are, the notion of universal, indefinite masking of young children often has more harm than it does benefit. I would say for whatever it's worth, I don't feel the same. I feel that we should all

be able to take off our masks now. I feel that we're at the endemic phase of this thing, that we're going to get variant after variant. Some people are going to sound these alarms and it's always going to be it's super spreadable right now or it's less spreadable. And they're going to say, put your mask back on. And I don't want to live like that. I want to decide for myself whether I cover my face, my children's faces. And people who want to protect themselves should do so via the vaccine or via these new therapeutics

or they can do social distancing. But I will say, I think we're now at the point where it's unreasonable to tell the rest of us that we have to live a certain way or we have to do a certain thing. I just, we did our part. It's been 18 months. We're Americans. We have freedom in our spirits. We're not built this way. That's just my two cents on it. high. And that's why deaths are much higher. And they're dying. You see that every day, right? So if I could design the compromise, it would basically be Republicans get vaccinated. And Democrats let people not wear masks if they don't want to wear it. What's hard about this is because so many Americans are not vaccinated, it actually makes the benefits of masks higher than they would be. Again, they're modest, but they're not zero. It makes the benefits of masks higher than they would be. Again, they're modest, but they're not zero.

It makes the benefits of masks higher than they would be if everyone were vaccinated right now. But look, I get why people are sick of masks. I do think we're doing too much masking in certain settings like schools. I do think we have exaggerated. Some places have exaggerated. Other places have understated, exaggerated the impact of masks. But look, couldn't we do away with the masks and increase testing and increase at-home private testing to make things easier for people? And by the way, increase the therapeutics and so on. I just don't think masks are necessarily the answer. And I just think they're so intrusive. They're so intrusive. I mean,

I realize not to everybody, but to those of us who hate them, we loathe them. Loathe. I would 100% avoid any grocery store that told me at this point I had to put it on. Just don't. I'm not one of those people who won't do it. I haven't yet become civilly disobedient, but I'm toying with it. I'm toying with it, David. My kids are like, what?

It's your show, but can I ask you one question? What is it, either you personally or the people you talk to, what is it that you think, not the political symbolism of it, but the actual experience of masking that is worse and worst and sort of most interfering? I'll give you one. I'll give you one. When I'm not on the air, I usually wear glasses. I don't have very good eyesight and I have dry eye. So my dry eye doctor said, wear your contacts as little as possible. So I wear my glasses and they fog up all the time. It's annoying and I don't want to have to deal with it. And I stayed out of the sun for 30 years so that I could have relatively decent skin by

the time I was 51. And I have it and I don't feel the need to hide it behind a disgusting mask that can cause outbreaks, right? You can get acne. It's annoying, right? It's like my skin looks better without that damn mask on. And I don't want to hide behind it. I also just find it annoying. It hurts the back of my ears after a while. I don't like that.

And I really hate seeing it on my kids. And I could spend an hour telling you about what I hate with it on my kids. Another thing I hate about it is I feel like it is wearing a democratic virtue signal. You know what I mean? In the same way that the maskers in New York City on the Upper West Side by me, all their masks would read vote, right? Because they want to vote Trump out of office. That's fine. You can do your thing. But to me, it has morphed into a political symbol and one that I don't support. I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either. I'm a registered independent. But I almost feel like I have Joe Biden's hand over my mouth you know like it's it's something I don't want he's making me have it or de Blasio is making me have it Ned Lamont in my

case now that I've moved to Connecticut and I resent them and I don't think you know so it's like it's it is bigger it's not like a political like I don't want to say I'm Republican because I'm not but I do want to say get your get your hand my face. I did what you wanted me to do for almost two years. And now I want to move on. You can't guilt me forever with a do your part. I did. And so did America. They gave up their businesses. Their kids didn't go to school for a damn year. People have died. People have been through it. And I just now think we're at the point where you have to release them, release the American public to do as they see fit and take the precautions that they find reasonable. these public health interventions have become partisan signs. I mean, to me, the best thing that we can try to do is in our polarized country, one of the things that I have tried to do is say to Democrats, registered Democrats and Democratic voters and anti-Trump Republicans, right? Hey, you know what? Masks probably matter less than you think they do. And they also have bigger costs than you're acknowledging, even if they don't for you personally. And I think the flip side of that is I think it's important for people who have the

ear of Republican listeners and Republican voters and people who lean Republican and Trump supporters who aren't Republican to try to emphasize just how valuable vaccines are, particularly for any adult. They really agree with you. I 100 percent agree with you. And by the way, it's a deal because I think I probably have more access to a right leaning audience than you do. And you have more access to a left leaning audience than I do. So we are going to solve the world's problems by 2 p.m. Eastern. All right. Stand by, David, because there's so much more to talk about with him. He's in it. This guy has done his homework.

Okay, David, so let's talk treatments. I saw you put out just some information on treatments, and I thought it was interesting. So we've got two treatments coming, and you made the observation that you think that they will be quite helpful medically, yes, but also psychologically. Can you expand on that? basically say anyone, all kids, and 50 is an arbitrary line to draw. But I would say roughly, if you are vaccinated, fully vaccinated, then you're under 50, COVID presents really a tiny risk for you. There are a bunch of places, Utah, Minnesota, the county that includes Seattle that put out detailed statistics by vaccination status. And in some of these places for people under 50, the death rate from COVID, if you're vaccinated under 50, is so low that they either don't report it or they report it as zero. So in sort of in those groups where the risks are already so low that really it doesn't make sense for these people

to organize their lives around COVID for their own sake. I do think they need to protect their parents and stuff like that. But many people still are organizing their lives around COVID despite this really minuscule risk that it presents them. I think the treatments for people in that category have the potential to have this psychological benefit. It's like, wait a second, even if I get COVID, and even if I get sick, the risks of which are tiny, there is this backstop. And so the biggest value of these treatments is the fact that they're going to save the lives of people who so far haven't taken the vaccines and thus are vulnerable. And they're going to save the lives of some people who have taken the vaccines, but are medically really vulnerable because they're 85 years old,

or they are undergoing cancer treatment. But the secondary benefit is the psychological benefit that will allow us to move more into a world where COVID is just another respiratory illness, not one that is completely dominating day-to-day life. Where are we in those treatments and their release? One's from Merck, one's from Pfizer. And also, I read that they may not do much good for people who'd been vaccinated, that this was a preventative, you know, of death for people who chose to forego the vaccine. Yeah. So they I think the overwhelming likelihood is that they will do good for people who are vaccinated. But the but the tests so far, the research trials have only been on people who were unvaccinated. And so that's all we know for

certain. But if you talk to the scientists who are involved in this, the research trials are ongoing with people who are vaccinated. Now, the odds of getting severe COVID if you are younger and vaccinated are so tiny that it's going to be statistically hard to notice that effect. But for drugs is really torturous, involving multiple agencies. So it always feels like it's just about to happen. But it really does seem like it's about to happen. Now, Merck reduces hospitalization or death by about 30%. That's not nothing. Pfizer, based on early studies, reduces it by closer to 90%. Wow. Pfizer, we think, could become available to people early next year in the first couple months. Okay, interesting news today on boosters. This is according to your paper.

They're reporting on a study that that, okay, let's say you've had the double Pfizer vax, which actually is what I have had. And Yeah, and you're looking at a booster. They're saying in this study, they took people who had the double Pfizer's and they gave half of them, it was done by Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston. They studied 65 people. And six months after the second dose,

they gave 24 of those people a third dose of Pfizer, 41 of those people the Johnson and Johnson. The paper points out the study was funded in part by Johnson and Johnson, hasn't yet been published in a scientific journal, but good enough that the Times is reporting on it. Both groups saw, and both vaccines, both boosters, boosted the number of T cells, which are important for longer lasting protection and for preventing infections from turning into severe disease. But the T cell increase from J&J was two times as high as Pfizer. The second thing you want from your booster is to increase the antibodies you have. Pfizer did better on that. If you got your

booster from Pfizer, you did better. Four weeks after the booster, both sets had strong protection, but Pfizer's, when it comes to antibody testing, was about 50% higher than J&J's, though, again, both were strong. So if that pans out, it does get peer reviewed and all the fun stuff, you know, pans out. I don't have you done enough research to tell me whether T cells increasing is more important than antibodies increasing. I've done enough research to tell you that I don't think anybody knows yet. So I don't think it's clear. I would say that there are some, I think logic is actually an underused tool in all kinds of realms, including public health. And there are, you want to be careful about overusing logic, but there are some logical reasons to think why a mix and match approach with vaccines might be more effective.

It's sort of similar to the diversification approach of investing, that if you sort of go at a problem just one way, right, that there are diminishing returns if you just keep doing that same approach. Whereas if you go at a problem a new way, you might, for example, attack the disease in ways that for whatever reason, in my body or someone else's body, the first vaccine didn't work. And so there really are both logical reasons and empirical reasons when you look at some of the results from Europe and other places, to think that the mix and match approach could, might be, we're not sure, might be at least as good or better. And so my view of this is if you've had one Johnson and Johnson shot, you should almost certainly get a booster from another one. If you've had Pfizer or Moderna, I think it's reasonable to kind of go any way. I don't think the research clearly points to which way to go. But I understand why

if people are given a choice, they might choose to vary and get Johnson and Johnson or one of the other ones if they got from the first one. It's fascinating. Okay, well, I haven't gotten the booster, but open minded. We'll see. I don't know if I need it. Whatever. That's a whole other debate. Let me talk to you about this because you asked a question recently that I think a lot of us want the answer to and seem to genuinely be grappling with it. And that was, how does this end? How does this end? And you were talking about a doctor, a COVID expert who you regularly speak with, Dr. Robert Wachter. And you said even though he's been one of the more cautious guys, he thinks increasingly the answer is it ends now. It ends now. So what does that mean? What does that look like? So first of all, I would say that Bob Wachter is a senior doctor at University of California, San Francisco. He would definitely say that we should have our behavior affected by what's going on in the world. So that if cases are going up,

or they're higher as they are now, we should react with more caution. So I just want to say that to give full airing of his view. I think the thing that's important, and this covers some ground we did before, so I'll make it quick, but these COVID precautions have costs. They have costs in terms of social isolation. We have seen drug overdoses go up. We have seen measures of how much kids are learning go down. We have seen measures of kids' mental health go down. There are real costs to this isolation, to it being harder to communicate. Human beings are social creatures. The idea that we're doing this much less often, the idea that I'm sitting in my house doing this interview, maybe I always would have, but the fact is I'm not someplace interacting with your colleagues on this show. I'm not having

these kind of normal human interactions with people. And all of this decline in human interactions really, really has downsides. And I think it's important to say, A, we're never going to get to COVID zero. We have to learn to live with COVID as an endemic virus. And saying we're never going to get to COVID zero means we're probably never going to get to zero deaths either. I mean, we have in a typical year, 35,000 deaths each year from the flu. And B, it means we need to figure out ways to get back to something that looks more like normal. And I don't know exactly how that happens. I'm more comfortable with the idea that

we take more precautions when cases are rising and fewer when they're falling. But right now, and I know this is something you've emphasized, it feels like too often we're imagining we're in some sort of permanent COVID world in which school will never be normal again. And I think that will have terrible costs for our society. As the mother of three kids, eight, 10, and 12, I do worry because my husband and I have done, I think, a good job of keeping anxiety very low, very low for them when it comes, and I mean, frankly, for ourselves too, but when it comes and i mean frankly for ourselves too but when it comes to this disease understanding exactly who it affects and it's generally not young children

um and it's generally not people like us who are well or over 50 but just barely david just i mean it's like very tight i feel like i'm still in the good group um and yet the longer this goes on the less persuasive we can be on this. You know, like the longer they have those damn masks on their face all day and they've constantly got to get tested and swabbed at school with the Q-tip up the nose and can't get near one another and have to eat lunch through plexiglass, you know, looking at their their friends. They have to lean back to talk to one another because they can't hear each other through the plexiglass still and go outside. I've told the story of my show, but you know, my, my older kid was outside. They have a huge property. I'm in Connecticut now. I'm no longer in New York. They could spread the kids out.

Each kid could have his own 20 yards between he and his friends. No, still had them wear masks while they were doing squat thrusts and pushups and sit-ups. So I complained. But the longer they keep doing that, the harder it is for us to maintain. This is just kind of like this stuff is not really that necessary for you, but we're going to go along. We're going to do our duty. We're going to support our fellow citizens. It's like it's getting to the point where I'm like, you're going to rip off the mask. You're going to go in there and you're going to hold up a sign that says free my face. know like my kids are like what but it just it needs

to end because that anxiety is going to be contagious i've done my level best to prevent it but it's coming it's coming for the littles yeah no and in some ways it's already here all right and so i i also think one of the problems with not setting metrics is it makes it harder to even turn things up, right? So I think there are a lot of settings in which kids do not need to have been masked. I think the data suggests kids do not need to have been masked for much of the past months. I would argue that actually there's a greater argument for having more masks in school right now when cases are

rising, and Omicron is coming, and we don't know exactly how bad it is, than there has been for most of the last year. But the thing is, when it becomes permanent, right, when you're always, when you're always telling kids, they need to bear the burden of this, I actually think it makes it harder to win over people to, hey, you know what, we need to, we need to kind of make a real push here and do things that we're not already doing. Because when you have kids who are outside, in masks, and distant, which is just more precautions than the science supports by any reading of the science, it then becomes really difficult to say to people, hey, actually, now we need to take it more seriously.

Because if you're already well beyond what is actually justifiable from a public health perspective, it makes it harder to persuade people to make a push in a moment where actually maybe we should be making a push. You write that there's not going to be a day where we declare the victory over COVID. Right, there isn't. Like, we're just going to have to get used to the fact Jennifer Nozzo, who's an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins, has been one of the best voices through this. You know, she says people at a certain point, they're just going to care less. And that's kind of an inconvenient truth. But I do think I do think that's what we're going to get to. I would really like to see us have a population that is much more vaccinated than the one we have.

I would really like to see us have rapid tests, is much more vaccinated than the one we have. I would really like to see us have rapid tests much, much more available. That is a combined failing of the Trump administration. And while the Biden administration has made progress, it has been excruciatingly slow, its progress on rapid tests. So in a world in which we have nearly all adults vaccinated, in a world in which we have rapid tests as available as they are in parts of Europe, everything else, all the other interventions, masking, distancing, all this stuff can really recede into the background. And basically, through a combination of vaccination and tests, we can live a life that looks almost entirely like normal. All right, here's my question for you, since you are now. I mean, I only recently left New York, but I've said many times all my friends are liberals and Democrats. But I would say if you're far left, you're probably not attracted to me as a friend because I I'm a little bit more right. That's fine. But I would imagine you're you're pretty much immersed in left and far left in New York and working at The Times. And so I have to ask you to reassure me, is the left going to come along with that plan? Are they going to reject

the COVID, forgive the term, fear porn? And just do they want to get back to normal? Because to me, it seems almost impossible to pull them on that tug of war, come over a little bit more toward this middle place that looks closer to 2020 pre-March? I don't know. I really don't know. I think we live in an extremely polarized society. We live in a society with widespread distrust of institutions. I mean, you look at the polling on what people think about the government and the media and organized religion and big business and labor unions. It's all tanked over the last 40 or 50 years, right? And the left likes to emphasize one part of those statistics and the right likes to emphasize another, but it's

basically all gone way down. We're almost all through. People still have a high degree of trust in the military. And so in a society that's highly polarized with large levels of distrust, I think you can basically have lots of irrationality persist for large periods of time. And I think the most harmful version of it has been on the right. We've got huge numbers of people refusing to take the vaccines and causing a lot of unnecessary death and also prolonging the pandemic for everybody else. And on the left, you've got a lot of people who really are having a hard time looking at the numbers in a sober way and understanding that for large numbers of people, the risks are extremely low, not for everyone, but for large numbers of people, the risks are still extremely low. And that a whole bunch of these precautions have costs to our society and to our kids. The one thing that I wonder about, and I know conservatives are very

eager to predict this, but I do wonder whether there's a point at which Democrats are going to start to worry that there are political costs for them. There is, to me, an intriguing argument that part of the reason that Democrats did so surprisingly poorly, not only in Virginia, but also in New Jersey, is people's anger about schools in particular, and the way in which normality has not returned in general. And I think if there is starts to be kind of electoral panic among people on the left, I do think that could potentially cause a different dynamic in this area. What do you make of, you know, I know you think the right is mostly to blame for the, you know, less than perfect vaccination rates. I, I look back, and i think the whole thing was politicized from the start you know

that the press and the left saw a chance to hurt trump with covid you know that he was rolling along to re-election because the economy was booming most of the polls had him sailing through to a second term and this was a chance to hurt him you know and, and it and and it was, I think, used in a way by plenty of Democrats and press to try to get to him and certainly by Joe Biden. And then you had people like Biden, like Andrew Cuomo, like Harris undermining faith in the vaccines, which were developed under Trump. You know, so I don't think all the vaccine hesitancy can be put at the at the feet of those Republicans who kind of held on to the messaging that Biden and Harris and Cuomo were were delivering early on. You know, they were skeptical then and they remain skeptical. I don't know if

they were actually skeptical or not, to tell you the truth, but they certainly said publicly they were when Trump was the president. So I just to me, it's like it goes back to your first point, which is the systems are falling apart because they're losing the faith of the American people. And when I look at like the vaccine hesitant, I look at people who no longer trust the mainstream media, people who thought Mike Pence was going to give Trump the presidency on January 6th. You know, people still think it's coming Trump's way. Why do they think that they're getting information from unreliable sources? Why are they going there? Well, because they no longer have faith in the mainstream media. Some no longer have faith even on the right in Fox News, right? Because it didn't declare Trump

the winner. It like all of it is a never ending cycle downward, downward, downward, downward. To me, it's like a bigger question of how do we pull ourselves out from the depths of that despair on so many fronts, right? Not just like going to Republicans and saying, take the vaccine, or for that matter, you know, black Americans who have been more vaccine hesitant, and so on. So I don't know how we solve that. But I do think it's unfair to just sort of say the Republicans have been too reticent on vaccines, because it's a long and complicated story. It is a long and complicated story. And I certainly wouldn't say all the blame is on one side. I guess my general view is people are responsible for their own actions. And, you know, there are people on the left today who say, well, the reason I insist on wearing a mask even more

than the data may support is that people on the right were so anti-mask that it pushed me into this. And my view is, no, no, no, you're responsible for your own actions. If you're wearing masks in situations where you don't even need them, that's on you. And to me, the flip side of that is, if you look around, yeah, maybe it was a little complicated at first, but Trump never fully embraced the vaccines. And if you look around today, basically, you have one Democratic politician after another saying, please take the vaccines. Please take the vaccine.

And then among Republican politicians, you kind of have this, they're trying to play cutesy. They won't always admit that they've taken it personally. They raise lots of, I'm just asking questions about it. Well, I mean, you've got guys like DeSantis, he's saying openly take it. I mean, like he's one of the most popular Republicans saying, take it, you know, but he doesn't like mandates. Republicans in general don't like mandates. In general, they want the government out of your business, not in it. Yeah, I guess. If you made a list of politicians raising questions about vaccines, it would not include

every Republican on it. But the list would be almost totally Republican. I agree with that. Right. And so I guess my view is they're sort of responsible. Again, if we went back to the election, you'd see Biden and Harris and all these others, right? But now they're like, no.

Anyway, I get your point. I just feel like to me, it's just so such a bummer. Right. Because I I don't see it going in a good direction. I don't know. I thought maybe I didn't I didn't believe Biden's promise of unity. But I thought maybe the country will be a little bit less heated with Trump out of the office. You know, maybe we can find our way back to each other. So far, I've seen no progress. I think you and I have done better than the country has in this past hour. First of all, I appreciate that. Yeah, no, secondly, I mean, I think at this point, sadly, our polarization, we have not yet met a politician who can cure us of our polarization, right? I mean, I think that whatever you may think of them, forever, all their differences, both George W. Bush and Barack Obama have enormous talents, and they both basically won the presidency vowing to do just that. Neither of them did. Donald Trump did not, and he definitely didn't. But Biden, sort of similar to Bush and Obama, kind of had these instincts. And I really worry about so much of really the future of this country. I think the world's a better place when

the United States is the most powerful country in the world. And if we are this divided on basic questions, I kind of worry about the future of American power. I know. I know. I read in your paper every day that it's declining. And it is. But it doesn't have to decline. It's not a done deal. Exactly right. It's worth fighting for. David, such a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on and for all your great reporting. Well, thanks for having me. And thanks for the nice things you've said about the newsletter.

I really appreciate it, Megan. You bet. Now, see, the New York Times is not all bad. I enjoy David. I enjoy the daily. You know, you got it. It's important to get a wide variety of inputs in your information gathering, right? So don't let anybody

spin you. Take from the left, take from the right, make up your own mind, and then go out there and preach. Say how you feel because this is America and you're allowed to do that still. Don't forget to tune into the show tomorrow because we've got Barry Weiss here. Check us out in the meantime on YouTube and download the show on Apple. Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.